The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue: Recent Episodes
The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue
Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so they can get their health back quickly. And I’m really excited to be joined by our guest, Dr. Andrea Ferland. She is a senior scientist …
Unlock a Pain-Free Life Here are 8 Steps to Defeat Chronic Pain Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: All right, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their house so that they can get their health back quickly. And we’re joined with part with Sean Bean in part two, of unlocking the metabolic bottlenecks. And …
Unlocking The Metabolic Bottlenecks For Optimal Energy and Health Part 2 Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. Really excited to meet with a colleague. Sean is who we are going to be talking about …
Unlocking The Metabolic Bottlenecks for Optimal Energy and Health Read More »
The post Unlocking The Metabolic Bottlenecks for Optimal Energy and Health appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back. And I had to do an inventory on what number this is morally, this is number seven. …
How the PAM Enzymes Is Involved in Energy Production 101 Read More »
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If you would like to try the Formula IQ difference, my favorite RCP supplements ie: Beef liver, Adrenal cocktail, cod liver, etc. click here Be sure to use “Welcome10off” for 10% off your first order Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted …
What They Don’t Want You to Know Decoding the Supplement Industry Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And it’s a pleasure for me to be joined by Michael Platt MD, who’s board-certified in Internal Medicine. He …
Confronting Adrenaline Dominance Candid Confessions from a Bold Doctor’s Mind Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their house so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined here by a special guest, Jeff Hoyt, he specializes in developing innovative wellness solutions …
Explained How Your Body Really Detoxes & This Powerhouse Nutrient Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And today, what a real pleasure. I’m joined by Andres Olson, he’s a trainer. He’s an author, he’s an innovator is …
Biohacking Breathing For Stress Relief and Massive Energy Production Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: Welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined by an exciting colleague of ours and mentor and friend, Dr. Kelly Halderman, who has a background in functional …
Structured Water: Health Benefits Revealed & What You Need to Know Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: Welcome back once again to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And again, what another pleasure that I have here today with Dr. Bob Miller, this is our third edition. But …
Why Are We So Sick? Genetic loads the Gun, Environmental Factors Pulls The Trigger Read More »
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Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. I’m here with a great patient of ours to go over his experiences with us, Mark Mariani. He worked with us a couple of years ago. And we have him on the call to be able to discuss some of his experiences with us. So thanks so much, Mark, for joining us today to have a conversation.
Mark Mariani: My pleasure, my honor. I’m glad to be here.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes, thank you. So I always like to go back to your initial paperwork and the things that you wrote in terms of where you are when we first started. And maybe you could talk a little bit about your past history, I know that you had a pretty quiet, quite stressful background, which you felt kind of got you into this mess in terms of pushing so hard and being hard-driven. So maybe let’s talk a little bit about what were you dealing with. And how did you get to where you got to before you and I started working together?
Mark Mariani: Yeah, gotcha. So I’ve lived a pretty crazy life. And it’s a lot of stuff. So I’m going to try to cram it is, you know, as small as I possibly can, and in a short amount of time. So a former Marine, when I was in the Marine Corps, I was with an anti-Terrorism Unit. So traveled all over Southeast Asia, doing these anti-terrorism security measures, as you can imagine, you know, I was in some pretty sticky situations, and you know, it was pretty stressful.
So got out of the Marine Corps, went back and went to college, and got a degree in criminal justice with a concentration in private security. Now, when I got out of the Marine Corps, I knew that I had a little bit of, we’ll say, PTSD, hypervigilance, and, you know, just dealing with a lot of the stuff that I did, but I never really addressed the root cause, you know, I was, you know, a Marine, you know, I’m tough and, you know, I can, I can persevere, this isn’t gonna affect me.
So as I went to college, you know, never really kind of dealt with it had some sleep issues. You know, I wouldn’t say full-on insomnia, but, you know, definitely wasn’t getting really good sleep. But again, I just never kind of dealt with the root cause. After I graduated, I ended up getting hired by Gavin de Becker and Associates, which is an executive protection firm, based out of California, and I got assigned to a multi-billion dollar family and I ended up running a 10-man protective detail.
And as you can imagine, it was full on I lived out of a suitcase, nine months out of the year, you know, running, you know, this, this detail and dealing with his family and just all over the place to timezone changes, you know, it was, again, very, very, very stressful. And the sleep issues got even worse, I ended up you know, just trying to put my, my finger in the hole, and, you know, just all these, you know, simple, you know, fixes that never actually got to the root of the cause I ended up going on sleeping pills.
And you know, that’s, that made things even worse, and then, you know, my energy was getting depleted, so caffeine, coffee, etc, etc. So I did that for six years, you know, was pretty burnout realized that wasn’t really my calling got out of that line of work. And then I ended up going back to school, getting a degree in exercise physiology, and getting into the health and wellness field, which I’m currently in. And that actually brought me overseas.
So I lived abroad for 11 years, kind of traveled around Southeast Asia worked for multiple different brands as a master instructor running fitness retreats, I’ve opened up a gym, you know, teaching certification courses, and, you know, we’re working with 10s of 1000s of people. Now, in that process, I, you know, kind of burned myself out, you know, I was, you know, traveling everywhere, again, giving everything that I had to everybody else, and I wasn’t necessarily taking care of myself, and you know, kind of doing that, that deep work.
And then it just got me to a point roughly about two years ago, prior to when we started working together. Where like it just I crashed, I crashed, I had nothing left in me. You know, just to get up in the morning and get through the day was the drag. The insomnia was horrible. I was only getting a couple of hours of sleep at night. I was stuck in hyper-vigilant mode and didn’t quite know how to get out of it.
And yeah, everything just went sour. I ended up getting this position to come back to the US and it was a great opportunity. Didn’t know if I was going to have the energy to do it. But it brought me closer to family back to the US and again a great opportunity. So I decided to do that and I knew that I needed to find somebody that was going to you know in the background you know helped me make some some change. Just figure out exactly you know, what was going on, you know, with with with my body. And then I started doing a lot of research, you know, came upon your website and started, you know, doing a little bit of a, you know, a deeper dive, you know, some videos and I was like, you know, man, you know, I’m gonna check this guy out. And then that’s why I booked the initial consultation with you.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Okay, great. Well, you can see why oh, sorry, go ahead. It was a lot of information. Oh, that’s fine. That’s good. You can kind of get a reason why. That’s why people find our mark is that they have a lot of stressors that they experience in their life. And in your case, you can see that there’s a certain amount of hard-wired to be accomplished and driven, and then the military experience and all the stress that that would impact you on the body and then realizing, okay, at some level, I crashed, and I burned. So I guess that’s the question I would ask first, just as a curveball, what was it that made you finally take that next step of Okay, I gotta get this done.
Because a lot of the time people are dealing with issues, but it’s not until something acute happens for them to make that next step of like, okay, I can’t keep flying the plane on my own, I gotta find someone else that’s going to help me was Do you remember specifically, what it was for you, Mark that made? You say, Okay, I got I got to actually do something about this now.
Mark Mariani: Yeah, well, whenever like, all system has failed, and I completely crashed in, you know, like, that was getting depressive thoughts and anxiety. And I just knew, I just knew, like, my body was done. And I was like, I need some help. I can’t do this on my own. I mean, there are so many things that I have learned, you know, being in the health and wellness field. But when it like when you’re in such a dark spot, and you have nothing to give, like trying to navigate and figure things out on your own was just, it was just way too complex.
And that’s where I was, like, I need to have somebody that, you know, really fully gets it from a functional medicine approach. And no longer could I just put my fingers in the hole and put on, you know, these band-aids and these quick fixes, I needed to get to the roots and you know, implement some, you know, good habits and protocols.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Okay, great. And as far as you mentioned, we had that initial conversation. Do you remember anything about that initial conversation that made you decide, okay, I think this is the guy that is going to help me, is there anything that stood out in your mind before we started working together, we always give the opportunity with our potential patients to ask us whatever questions are for us to do a deep dive to figure out if they have a problem, we think we can help and whether or not we should work together? And this is something they want to do they want to do about it. Was there anything that stuck out in your mind that made you decide to make that leap?
Mark Mariani: Yeah, first and foremost, I remember you just asking me like, you know, what’s, what’s going on? Tell me a little bit about yourself. And you were just very kind and understanding and empathetic, and you didn’t speak, you just listened. And you heard my story. And I just, I felt, I felt comforted just you know, from that approach, and I was like, okay, you know, I could see that this guy, you being sincere and genuine, and it made me feel really, really, really good.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Good. I’m glad I’m glad. I mean, you can’t fake caring how we say, right, you do enjoy your job and you want to help people, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. So thank you. And I’m glad that that struck a chord. So as far as you did write down the mark, which I want to ask you about, you knew enough about sometimes people don’t know what they don’t know.
But you knew enough about, okay, well, I want to learn about my genetics, what my predispositions are, I know that I need to run better tests that are gonna give me a specific protocol that is for me, only, not just a cookie cutter, throw everything against the wall kind of thing. And I wanted to do it in a holistic type of way for health optimization. So that’s quite sophisticated. You can tell from your background, how you would arrive there. Was that something where you had already gone down the traditional routes and that you were just hitting dead end after dead end? Or was it just you had always been of the holistic mind and didn’t want even go that approach in the first place?
Mark Mariani: No, I mean, it was the, you know, the first statement, whereas you know, I went down the western route, you know, and I saw the gastrointestinal doctor, I saw the neurological doctor, I saw this doctor for sleep and this and this and this and, you know, right away, you know, their approach As you know, let’s match you, you know, here’s, here’s the problem, and we’re just gonna give you a medication that’s just gonna match things and nobody communicated with one another. You know, it wasn’t a team of people working together, it was just this individual approach.
And it just failed on all measures. And I was very, very, very frustrated, and deeply dis disappointed. Where it says, you know, as you know, we’re a system of systems. And when, you know, one is out, it affects all the other systems. And I just, I really, you know, was, you know, hoping that, you know, I would find the right person that would understand that, and, you know, and look at everything, so I didn’t have to go 100 different places. I went to one person, they ran all the tests, and they looked at the overall picture, and that was you.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s quite insightful. I know, I’ve read a couple of books about the military and so forth. And I guess the main thing that keeps everything running in order is communication, right, and hierarchy. And if the body isn’t run in the same way, you have the specialists that aren’t talking to the generalists, which is what your body is, and there’s nothing independent about the body, everything is related. So kudos to you for doing that. So when we first started, some of the things that I see are gut issues, hair loss, psoriasis, insomnia, really bad brain fog, to your point as to just crashing and burning.
So I guess, with our work together, Mark, anything stands out in terms of understanding your genetic predispositions? Or what your specific marching orders were that you’ve continued to do? Or even dovetail into? What are you feeling now, after we’ve worked together? How, how have you recovered? Or how have your outcomes been since working? So the two-part question is basically, the first part is? What do you know about yourself that you didn’t know, that you implemented? And what were the results of that being implemented?
Mark Mariani: Yeah. So before we get to that, I just wanted to chime in and mention one more thing, because you asked, you know, what kind of stood out during that initial consultation. And another thing that really stood out, you know, after I kind of made the decision, you know, to start working with you was the health history questionnaire that I had to fill out, you know, with family history, and, and just all the details, it was, you know, was quite, you know, extensive.
And, and I just loved that I loved the fact that, you know, we weren’t just kind of looking at, you know, the current scenario is, you know, it was just, it was just everything and, and, you know, my family, and, you know, my grandma and grandma, and like, you know, kind of going up the, you know, the family history. So I thought that was very extensive, and, you know, gathering that information, it was, it was definitely a good approach.
So, getting back to the questions, you know, what, you know, what did, I didn’t really, you know, quite know, you know, before I got into the states, one genetics, I mean, we did that genomic test, and there was a lot of things come back, I mean, one of the ones that, you know, just kind of popped into my mind was, you know, you asked me, you know, Mark, like, you know, are you empathetic?
Are you a people pleaser, do you always want to help people? And that’s why I got into the health and fitness, you know, field and the answer was, you know, without a doubt, you know, yes. And you could see that, I mean, I was predisposition, you know, genetically to kind of have this, this snippet. And I saw that play out because there were so many times where I knew that like, you know, I needed more rest, I needed more recovery, but yet somebody you know, it’d be like, Mark, hey, can you do a session on Saturday?
Can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? And I never said no, you know, it was always yes, yes. Even though deep down inside, I was like, you know, I don’t know how I’m gonna juggle this. I don’t know if I can handle much more. But I always said, yeah, so you know, that that was definitely something that stood out amongst, you know, just several, you know, other things and know, your approach with pulling up, like, you would share your screen and you pull up all the different diagrams, and you show me how, like, MTHFR affected, you know, the adrenals, and it affected this and you explained everything, and, you know, you just kind of connected the dots off, you know, where I was at my genetics and you know, how it was kind of playing out, you know, which was, which was fantastic.
And then we did the comprehensive stool analysis, you know, and that that’s always, you know, to me, you know, oh, the disease starts in the guts, you know, and that’s kind of one of the first things you know, to go to and where everything else stems out and you know, and then we found out that, you know, by doing the test on Um, you know, I had a bacterial infection that was H. Pylori, as well as a parasitic infection, you know, the blastocyst hominess, severe dysbiosis, you know, and imbalance, you know, good guys versus bad guys, as well as in, you know, talking about brain fog talking about insomnia, talk about, you know, these food sensitivities, leaky gut, you know, my zonula Zonulin levels were, you know, through the roof, I don’t like getting that information, and then, you know, taking the right approach, not, you know, hey, let’s throw everything at it to heal the gut. Well, no look, like we got to, we got to take the approach of getting rid of the bacterial infection, that parasitic infections, you know, through the anti-microbial.
And then we go in and, you know, we alter the diet, and then, you know, we heal the guts, and it’s a process, it’s a system and having, you know, somebody like yourself that, you know, fully gets it and understands that methodical approach on you know, how to do that was, was a game changer. Healing the guts was a game changer, you know, am I completely out of the woods? No, you know, just because of how bad and how long that I had gut issues.
But do I know that now like that intestinal lining is, you know, it is healed? Yes, I do. Because I don’t have those sensitivities, you know, my sleep is, is much better, and you know, the brain fog and just on and on and on. So that was an absolute, you know, a game changer. And then we did the Dutch test to have a look at, you know, kind of cortisol levels and things I thought that were actually going to be a little worse. Beings, you know, where I was at mentally and you know, that hyper-vigilant, sympathetic nervous system overdrive. But, I mean, it uncovered some things, but it wasn’t as bad as you know, I was thinking initially. Yeah, off the top of my cuff, I don’t know, if that answer.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Listen, that’s a great answer. Great answer. Listen, if you can see, if you’re listening to this, this is not a program for everyone, right, because a lot of people just want the, you know, fill in the blanks and, and follow the leader and, and take the magic pill, if you will. And a lot of the times, that’s not gonna work, especially as complicated as it is that we need you to be in the front seat with us, and be able to hand over the steering wheel to us because that’s why you came to see us, but yet, you’re still up there wanting to dry right, which is typically who we’re going to be working with just commenting on your initial comment with reviewing your health history and how in-depth we get.
I love doing that to Mark because I do go through that with a fine toothcomb. nothing more frustrating. I’m sure people can relate and you can where you’ll go to a doctor’s office. And it’s not even done electronically. It’s done, you’re having to handwrite everything. And then you go in there and half the time. They’re not even looking at it and the other half of the time they’re asking you questions that you already answered on the piece of paper that they didn’t even look at right so we look at that and I circle and star things to make sure Okay, I got to ask about this because this can be one of those.
What was it, doctor? I forget what Doogie Howser or whatever it is where there’s those little you know, there’s those Doctor House right? There are those little nuances where this person could have had exposure to mold or there’s a family history of heart issues. So I definitely want to know about this or so it’s very important to ask those questions and to read them, and incorporate them into your game plan. Number one awesome commentary on the empathy that’s very common with our people is we say you have an antenna that extends out of your head way too high.
And it has the Aquaman of fishes coming to you and all these frequencies of the world and wanting to be Mother Teresa and helping everyone on top of the fact that you’re high security, you’re helping everyone you’re saying no to yourself, and yes to them. And, you know, you have the foresight to know okay, I hit the wall with stress. I know typically that’s going to be an adrenal hormone thing, but having the understanding that it’s all one system, and if I’m inflamed, it’s not just impacting my HPA axis. It’s impacting my gut health, my brain health, my neurons, it’s impacting everything, and to go about it in a certain way. So awesome to you that definitely success leaves clues.
The other thing I’ll just point out, which is a small but big detail, is the propensity to at the cellular level, not breathe as effectively as you can, because you’re not moving iron out of tissues effectively. So maybe we can talk just a smidgen about that mark in terms of how the whole Iron and blood donation and or just the impact that that has on your health or what you learned about that as well.
Mark Mariani: Yeah, so, um, you know, based upon the standard, you know, bloodwork, you know, in the fair tin, you know, on kind of the indicators of iron and iron overload. And I’m sure you recall that like mine words, you know, these massive.
Dr. Joel Rosen: You weren’t, like, you weren’t a textbook, like a hemochromatosis patient, meaning everything’s just overflowing the out of the bucket, but it was still a dis, what we call a dysregulated. Pattern.
Mark Mariani: Exactly, And then after you, you know, kind of explained that was, you know, that was the case, you know, we came up with a pretty good approach from, you know, supplementation, certain foods, you know, increased copper, how copper is going to, you know, kind of lower than that iron helped flush the iron out of the body, as well, as you know, bloodletting, you know, which I did that, I think was like, every six months, you know, and got a little relief from that. So, yeah, it goes back to, like, you know, there’s no huge, it’s a little on top of a little eventually equals a lot and, you know, in taking those, you know, those, you know, small, you know, little approaches to, you know, free some of the iron that was, you know, stuck and stored in my body, it paid dividends.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. And then I also remember going over the comprehensive stool testing and getting that Zonulin level very low, which was great, because it was super high. And that is a marker of intestinal permeability. And then basically, you have the immune system being triggered more likely for food sensitivities, not being able to make your secretions as much so that can create massive amounts of snowball effect.
And I think one of the things we tried to do was, we did diet variation we played around with shifting, your time window a little bit earlier to the left, if I remember correctly, and then also trying to get you to get some more diversity in your GI health, because there was, so between those two, maybe give us some feedback on what you learned there and what you’re doing since then.
Mark Mariani: Yeah, so, you know, when you have intestinal permeability, you know, the body like, you know, it doesn’t matter how good the food is, you know, broccoli, cauliflower, like all these good super organic, healthy food, no matter what you put it in, you know, if it’s getting through that lining, or the, you know, the body, the blood, the cells, you know, it doesn’t recognize it, and it looks at it as a foreign invader.
So if you were always comfortable eating, you know, broccoli, and you know, and it made you feel better, and note, and then also now you’re eating it and like all these healthy foods, the body’s responding, you know, you’re getting this inflammation, you know, gas and burping and bloating and, and you’re like, what’s going on.
So, you know, when that started to heal, I was able to kind of implement, you know, prebiotics and probiotics, and then food, you know, diversity, but the biggest thing is, it was slowly like, I think, you know, I kind of made that mistake, you know when we were working together, where it was, like, alright, you know, I’m good, you know, I’m just gonna dive in and start eating all these salads and you know, all this good healthy food, but like, my body wasn’t ready for that.
So, you know, if I can, you know, give any advice to any listeners that are watching this and, you know, listening to this is play the curious scientist. And, just remember that you know, if one thing doesn’t work, you know, try something else. If that doesn’t work, try something else. And just be curious. And, and, you know, and just realize that, like healings, not lit, linear, you know, it could take months or yours in my case, and I’m still you know, doing work.
But be prepared to do the work, be kind, and be gentle. I had to learn this. Be gentle with yourself over the process. And you know, that cheerleader in the background, like, you know, oh, you need to be healthy, you know, you need this energy you, you know, calm that cheerleader down and have that cheerleader work for you and give you a pat on the back because you need that and it’s important.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great comment. I think that it’s slow, slow, and steady wins the race, that’s for sure. And then when you have a default mechanism, because I think there might have been one or two times and very seldom because you can see with your attitude already that you know bleeding is a weakness leaving the body you can kind of already see that happening with your mindset. But I do believe there was one time where we got the results back and we might have kicked up the ocean floor and you had I had to maybe talk you down the ledge just a little bit in terms of what was going on.
Mark Mariani: I remember that I was, you know, I was getting a little gain, I was feeling a little better. And then, you know, things kind of stirred up with, you know, one of the approaches we were taking and, and then it was just frustrating because it was like, oh, man, I’m starting to see the light, and you know, you’re taking steps forward, and then all of a sudden, that light just closes, it’s dark, and you feel like you’re going back down the ladder. So and I remember that, and, you know, the pep talk, as well as a little bit of tough love.
I remember one time, you know, like, you know, I had said something like, oh, you know, Dr. Rosen, know, why is this not working? And, and, you know, and you were very, you know, just upfront and, and, you know, said, Well, Mark, you know, have you given it enough time, you know, did you do this, did you and you know, at first I was like, Oh man, like, you know, that’s not what I wanted to hear, you know. But then, you know, I realized after we got off the call that you know, it was coming from the heart. It was tough love, and I and I needed that. So that was good.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that was good. And I think also too, I remember just like, hey, like, the game we just mentioned in terms of, even though it’s not a stick, like a hallmark presentation of iron overload that dysregulated pattern is, is root cause number one along with the gut, because if you’re not moving that iron out of the tissues, it will feed the microbes, you’ll have H Pylori and blastocyst. So if we just focus downstream, I’m not multitasking at the same time.
So I remember having to insert a little bit of that recognition and like, hey, when was the last time that you donated? What’s going on with these things here, those hemoglobin and red blood cell markers are still sky high, we got to get those down. So we kind of kept it in, in context, I think is what we did. So as far as if someone’s listening to this, and they’re skeptical, they’re like, Well, I don’t know, this would work for me. What would you tell them? Given your experience?
Mark Mariani: Yeah, how would tell them? I don’t know. If I, if we were talking about this, you know, prior to the recording, but, you know, you’ll never find a U haul behind a Hearst. So you know, if you’re in a, in a, a state of mind and body where you’re drained, you’re tired, you know, you’re depressed, you got anxiety, you’re not feeling well, and you’re not living life, you know, to its fullest is stop putting on the band-aid stop, you know, trying to put your fingers in the holes and unplug the dam and you know, invest the money, the best money you can make is, is the best money you can spend is, you know, to invest it in yourself.
And you know, without health, there is, you know, there is no wealth. So, spend the money, and, you know, you know, just all the things that we were saying is, is that, you know, having somebody like yourself that oversees the entire process and the full picture, stop going to one person for this and one person for that and, and trying to put all the pieces in yourself. Yeah, I would, I would say, you know, spend the money, you know, understand that, you know, it’s gonna take work, do the work. And you’ll be very grateful that you did.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s great advice, Mark, I eat a lot of people will say, well, and I believe them, that they’ll willing to spend the money, but they’re, they’ve gone to so many different people before. And now they’re concerned about this as another me too. And will this work for me? Because I’ve already done this. And a lot of people will say that they’ve done so many things. And then I’ll ask them about well, did you do the genomic testing?
Did you do your blood glucose ketone? Did you do your diet variation? Are you looking at your iron and your metabolism there? Did you incorporate your Dutch test with the GI MAP test? And are you putting all these puzzle pieces together and it’s so much different, like a lot of people say the analogy a lot is water just will not boil at 99.2 degrees Celsius, it has to get to that 100 degrees, right?
So even though you’ve gotten that burner up to a certain degree, you can’t fold your arms, and saying this is unfair like the laws of nature aren’t working for me when I want it to when I’m going against you know, the physique. So I think that’s it, that’s a good point. Um, any last things you would want to add a mark in terms of, you know, just your, your whole journey where you are now, all of the above?
Mark Mariani: Yeah, so I did want to chime in and say that, you know, we talked about genetics, we talked about the gut we talked about physiology and those are all great and you know, dealing with somebody like yourself that you know, understands physiology and biology and you know, chemistry and hormones and that whole aspect of it is massive but you don’t just deal with the body, you understand that it is it’s a lifestyle. You know, I mean like, like genes your DNA like you’re born with that and you die with your DNA.
It’s you know, the epigenetics, it’s though it’s the lifestyle and the environment around that cell is going to dictate how that cell is going to respond. Are you going to get a disease or not getting a disease? It’s the environment. Well, how do you change the environment? How do you impact the environment? Did you change your lifestyle?
Yes, that’s nutrition. But what about like, like, breathwork? What about, you know, prayer? What about meditation, what about, you know, having friends in love and, and things like that the environment and earthing and, and I could just go on and on and on that it’s, it’s, you know, this, this whole lifestyle approach, and you get that you don’t just deal with, you know, the blood in the labs, and, you know, the physiology. It’s everything.
And, you know, another thing is, you know, that Biology of Belief is, you know, I know, it’s very cliche that what the mind conceives the body achieves. But you know, what I noticed in myself, and I noticed with, you know, people I’ve worked with in the past, and just people in general is, you got to be careful of the story you tell yourself because the mindset is everything you can have, you know, the greatest diet and exercise plan and everything going well.
But if you’re telling yourself this, this broken story, that’s how your life is gonna plan, you know, pan out. So, you know, listen to the story, you’re telling yourself, and you know, if it’s not the story that you want, change the story, change the narrative, and that’s going to impact you know, the mind, that’s going to impact your, your thoughts, your emotions, and then you know, your biology. So that’s super important.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. That is super important in terms of, I always say you have to be congruent with your default mindset, or your belief system, and where you want to get to. And I just want to kudos and recognize recognition for you. Because I know every time we would email each other, it’s like, I’m great. How are you doing?
How is your family? You know, you always have that extra sincere, I want to know how you’re doing and I, that goes a long way than just doing your genetics and knowing your blood work. I mean, you that’s the glue that turns the 99.2 to, you know, 200 degrees Celsius, just just as an insight, or just follow up question, are you still saying yes to people, when you should be saying no? Or have you been able to cross that threshold of being able to maybe put yourself first from time to time? How have you done on that aspect?
Mark Mariani: Because, yeah, I’ve done very well with that, you know, just because, you know, you make so many mistakes in the past, and you got to sit there and come to that realization, like, you know, if I keep making the same mistake, that’s the definition of insanity is you keep making the same mistake over and over and over.
And then, you know, I just did this last time, was like, enough’s enough, you know, I realized, it’s not that I don’t care or, you know, love or want to help people, because I do, but if my cup is empty, and there’s nothing to give, and then, you know, I’m not utilizing, you know, what God gave me and you know, what he put me on this earth to do to help and impact others. You know, I gotta make sure my cup is full so that I can overflow. Right? And do what I designed, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I say that in a loving way to people that you’re lacking integrity when you do that, like, how do you know, I’m being very nice? It’s like, No, you’re lacking integrity with yourself. You know, if you’re being selfish by being unselfish, right, because if you’re not recharging your own battery to help other people, and you’re just depleting your battery, you’re not being at the best to be able to help people. That’s selfish, lacking integrity behavior in a loving, you know, sincere way.
So awesome information Mark much more than I had anticipated. I’m so grateful for you to share your experiences and that our frequencies aligned and we were able to get that resonance of improvement for you and I wish you nothing but future success in all your endeavors got some really exciting business things going on. So I know that it will continue to draw and bring in more more rewards than you probably had anticipated for so thank you so much.
Mark Mariani: My pleasure. And Dr. Rosen, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart for everything that you’ve done for me all the knowledge and, and everything you poured in and in the love you know, it definitely came through and it definitely helped me out. So thank you for being you.
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Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults, the truth about their health and the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get them back to an energized way of living quickly and fast. Today I have Daniel the natural path or Daniel Thompson. He’s an American race French trained TRADITIONAL FOODS oriented naturopath, who uses modern and traditional ideas, combining scientific knowledge and intuition for a refreshing solution-focused perspective on today’s challenges.
He also runs two companies, one in Texas, and one in France called the Heart of tradition in New US, which really seeks to bring topical magnesium and a blue glass of high quality and purity to the US markets and help others through his discoveries of living 15 years in France. He’s an avid self-taught researcher, Chef, Tango, dancer, basketball, basketball, or opera lover, and to stop loving personality, I have to ask him more about that with a love for the mysteries of life, the wonders of recovery, and homemade raw milk cheesecake. So Daniel, thanks so much for being here today. I appreciate you spending time with us.
Daniel Thompson: Thank you. Thank you. I’m really happy to be here. I was excited to get this message.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. Yeah, I had I had our team reach out to you. So I always like to start Daniel with giving us your health journey, you know, being a natural path and being dedicated to bringing new discoveries to the market, kind of give us a springboard on maybe the Reader’s Digest version of your history and how you got into this in the first place.
Daniel Thompson: Yeah, I went to school as a naturopath in France. And it’s, it’s, you know, it kind of got me into the more to the health side. And I had been studying little things before, but that kind of all connected it and eventually developed this supplement company. In France, we kind of hit the top of the market, they’re doing the transdermal magnesium as well. And it was kind of the first on the market there. So it was kind of a six it was a success and easier success.
And then started to come here to do that. I also learned a lot about the Weston Price Foundation and other doctors I learned a lot about nutrition and how to use nutrition as a way to overcome it. I guess you could say, what we see in the American market is a high level of supplementation. In Europe, we find a very intense level of vitamin combinations in food, which do not are not found here. One small example is if you go to Central Market here in Austin, which is the best spot I guess.
And you find traditional foods like all prepared and prepared foods, you know, you see no gelatin and you go to Europe, you go to a place like that gelatin is on everything. And so you’re like, well, what’s the difference here? Where’s the gelatin, you know?
And so we’ve gotten into a certain way of making things where we have stripped away the assimilators and things that help us to get, you know, you talk about acidity, I’m sure because you work with adrenal fatigue and, and gelatin is the key to that. I mean, some of these ways that we get this stuff to work in the body, and even get the veins the glycine, and everything to work right without the certification has to do with basic principles of nutrition that are used in a daily repetitive, somewhat medical way, but through food.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, absolutely. So as far as going on the next topic you did mention when we were figuring out what’s the best conversation to go down the difference between the European way you just cited an example and the American way. What other ways are you seeing that play out beside the gelatin Daniel?
Daniel Thompson: Difference? Well, as we mentioned before, with the Fogra, like, you know, this is another element that’s very powerful. I know a lot of Americans don’t know about it, but we’re finding out more about the fogger I’ve seen miracles happen using photographs for people I’ve seen women that had the body completely intercepted by soy and like no breast, for example, at 30 years old, and start taking the flag raw like on kind of a gamble like this guy’s crazy and watch themselves change within months and to grow these this back that there was never there and just mind-blowing stuff because the interception of the K two has happened through the genetics through soy and through the lack thereof to like, you know, soy kind of changes some of the parameters and the form.
But then we also have the lack itself, the deficiency itself and so it’s really hard to get a good dose of K to MK four and its active form. You can find pills and stuff but this active level is just a different thing. different game, and you see it quicker, it moves faster, and you can go much quicker through it. And it’s not cheap. But then again, I mean, that’s kind of some in some areas that it’s worth it because you’re doing this what the traditions show us to do this, like, you know, three or four times around Christmas, there was this kind of like notion there.
And so you trace that same tradition in Japan with the natto. And they have that same tradition you go to Norway, they have a certain type of cheese, they that they have the tradition around that cheese like you know, the Alps, they have a tradition to drink the yellow cream from the cows that finally make it to the snow line. And there’s a whole party and festival around it.
Now what did they know, that was all que tu, you know, they knew about it. And so we’ve kind of lost a little bit of it to our own detriment. And, so I just try to I try to stay on that game, it’s a different game because you can’t help as many people with it, because a lot of people are like, What is all that if I can find a way to bring some of that wisdom, a little bit of the Greek wisdom through the bath culture in my magnesium space, and those deficiencies and, and then try to help people find supplements that can get them closer, there are supplements like Emu Oil, like non-refined, which is a little hard to find, but it’s out there.
And there are places we can get like, you know, activator, like Ketu, in like Alpine. But there is like supplements like that. And so thank God, we can still find this stuff and an easy approach for Americans that are kind of finding somewhere in between sacred products and sacred foods, or sacred supplements and sacred foods.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Right. It’s a shame, too, because these are foods that are produced by the Earth and the old adage of let food, be thy medicine and medicine be thy food. It’s a lot harder now today. And I guess that’s the question I would ask you is, let’s say even with the foregoing, and the and the liver, if the animals aren’t healthy, and they’re living in a toxic world, and they’re exposed to the water in the air, and the soils that aren’t dense in nutrients is it it’s not a given anymore just to get a fog raw, that’s going to be healthy, that would produce those results.
I guess the question is, how much does that factor into? Okay, we want food to be thy medicine, but what if the medicine in the food isn’t? Isn’t there? So I guess what, what are the obstacles are some of the hurdles to be aware of, and to overcome?
Daniel Thompson: Well, you know, the American Indians, they would, when they would have scurvy in the winter, they would eat the actual adrenal gland from the animal. And they would pass it around to the tribe, and everybody would eat this. And so because the adrenal gland contains a very powerful form of vitamin C, not just like ascorbic acid it has, it has a whole other property to it.
And so it like that would like kind of recharge for the winter. And they didn’t need much of it, but like, they figured out these ways. And so some of those foods are still all out there, but it’s just far away from most people’s thinking. And, you know, I’m Scandinavian. And so they do blood pudding and black bread, and all this kind of weird stuff.
You know, and, and, you know, people are far away from that today. And so it’s just trying to bring some of those traditions back, I think liver is starting to become popular. So people are bringing that back. And it’s just little by little people are starting to realize that throwing away pieces of the animal has kind of great consequences. You know, you want a real beat 12 shot, go get inside of the body of that lobster and get that, that that greenish, like metallic stuff, bam, you know, and you’ll feel it.
And so, but we just toss all that, you know, and so there’s, there is a notion of just like re-education, things like that. It’s sad that usually people reeducate on this stuff through downturns, like were they, you know, like the Europeans, they, they don’t waste a lot of food even now, because of the Second World War, what it did. And so I think that, sadly, people go through these experiences, and then they realize that they should be more frugal or prudent with how they’re consuming and, and stuff like that.
That’s just one side, there are a lot of good supplements, there is a way for people to halfway get there and get there almost and find that there is a path that meets people where they’re at. It’s just knowing that these deficiencies, especially the k two triangles with magnesium and D, they’re not as easy to overcome as we think by just throwing some synthetic vitamins at them. They do take a little bit more love and effort, but they can be healed. And then that keeps us away from medical slavery. You know, or too much of it, you know, too many.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So okay, well, and I agree with that. I think that really is how to get every part of the animal. I guess more of my question was along the lines, is it harder and harder now with the mass production and the corn-fed way that the livestock is handled and maybe the inhumane ways that they’re being treated, that it’s hard to even with getting at every aspect of the animal, it may not necessarily provide you with the ideal nutrients.
I mean, I guess is that a real concern that you’re seeing, just in the world in general, or compared from Europe to us is, and very being aware of? Is it wild? Is it sustainably raised? Is it grass fed? Is it you know, is that something that you have to take those next measures to make sure you’re not just following the advice of getting real food, but real food that that eats real food kind of thing?
Daniel Thompson: Now, it’s true? Well, there are some rules in the body to like, you know, some of the least compromised parts of the animal are the blood and certain areas. And so people were eating that, you know, they would create these blood puddings and BRAC breads and all this stuff, because the blood is the least compromised in a given even in a bad system. And so there is like, There are levels to that.
But you’re right like you do have to seek your food, as I go to farmers markets, I typically find most stuff there, there’s a lot of people who order from the Amish, or they do this or they order online, or, you know, and so there are different ways to kind of source to where you can make sure you’re getting soy out of the food, that’s a big one if you can find soy for nonsoy fed chickens and eggs and stuff, that’s great.
Or yourself, or small, little farms or whatever. And so it definitely takes a little bit of extra effort. But I tell people, even my mom, I’m like, you know, once a month go the farmers market, get a bunch of eggs, get a bunch of this, throw it in the freezer, you know, it’s gonna be better than then what you’re doing if you’re you know, and there are options out there like even a grocery store even there are options but no, you’re right.
Like if we go to Asia, if I walk off farms, I wouldn’t touch any of that stuff. It’s called, you know, steel, Teresa’s, which, you know, liver kind of getting too fatty. And so that makes this like the wrong stuff. But going to France, I mean, those people spend, those are the highest paid animal farms on the planet as far as the product that comes back at the end how expensive it is.
So they are better than anyone. And so, but just the way that whole thing works, you know, but I will tell you that no, it is good to seek outside, especially for like, like, I used to make broth with like undiscerning stuff. Like I would go by just bones and stuff and make broth. And like I did toss one time the broth, because I felt like it wasn’t doing it wasn’t helping the digest something was wrong.
And so yes, I had to seek out I mean, people got to spend about 50 bucks to make broth, it’s not going to be $2 or five, that was back in the day, when you just get the rest from the butcher, you know, and so you got to spend a little more money to do it. But I think it’s feasible. I mean, when, when the poor, when they had a lot of famine in Scandinavia, everybody ate herring and potatoes and onions. That’s all they had to eat. And they noticed that during this period, the number of cancer cases went down.
You know, and it was like, yeah, they got stuck on a very boring and almost like, inexpensive food that we can also find today, that same food everywhere, you know, you can see this in Walmart in a big, you know, and so it’s like, you know, you can get by, but it might be a boring recipe, but you can still make it you know, so there is a need for people to eat, right? But it’s just learning a little bit more usually in their own traditions like Jewish tradition in France, you go back into them, you’ll find stuff polish like that, too. There are a lot of areas you’ll find these common traditions, which have a high vitamin quality, they understand the gelatin matrix, they understand other elements that we’ve kind of tossed out.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s such great information. And, you know, one of the other differences that you just kind of touched upon is the value we place on food specifically with what we invest in our foods. And I know in Europe, it’s gonna cost potentially a little more for the good quality food versus I think the American mentality is that you know, cheap fast foods.
And I think in the short term, it’s cheaper in the long term, it’s much more expensive because you’re having a chronic health issue that you know, a little bit of X-ray investment today results in a huge return tomorrow with the quality of the food so it’s interesting that you that’s where I was going one thing that you mentioned with the soy and the isoflavonoid I think it gets a lot of bad rap here because of the GMOs and so forth.
But this wasn’t on the topic list, but you brought it up and I wanted to ask you because I do promote this to our patient base as well as good quality soils and what you get with the ISO flavonoids and so forth. Maybe you can just give us a little bit of insight with your background into why it’s so important to not quote-unquote, throw the baby out with the bathwater on what you hear about the ills of soy.
Daniel Thompson: Ah, Well, I don’t know, like, for me, I, I know that for example, when you make a Natto, and you try to create Ketu, out of making Natto, I used to order this from farms in France, they would make it at the farm and send you this, like really smelly natto stuff, you know, and powerful way to get Kaitou. But so they use soybeans.
And soy, soy is famously used for a few different elements, like, kind of like the Asian Garam, you know, which is like this, this thing the Romans used to, you know, which helped to build some strength amongst people that didn’t have much food to eat. And this would add an element. Like, it’s kind of like petrol, putrid kind of sardines and scraps and things that all kind of ferment.
And so but I will say that, so I have a friendship with soy on certain levels. My problem is how they actually get it to market and the fact that it’s used as a crop rotation byproduct. And, and, and what it can do to the soil, sometimes like it pulls a lot of manganese out, it doesn’t magnesium to It doesn’t replace it. And so over time, there’s kind of like, there were better crops that we were rotating with before.
And so we got ourselves into kind of an addiction in a way. And so then it became a product and everything else. So there’s kind of this side of it. But as its own element, fermented soy was used traditionally as a little six to 10%, maybe five to 7% part of the meal in a given society, like especially in Asia as a fermented food, and it was healthy.
And it was like kind of a protein multiplier. And so that would you know, you have your broth, you have you you don’t have a lot of money. And so this multiplies the protein. And so this was the smart move, right? And so if we get down things, the right size, and not the genetic version, then we probably get something more respectable.
I don’t want to throw any of, you know, God’s foods out the window, I want to figure out, they’re, they’re just like Candida, I want to figure out where they go over, you know, not if they’re in place, they’re fine. But when they go over, then you’re in trouble. And so that’s kind of like it becomes almost a Trojan horse.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and that’s a great comment I tell a lot of our patients, and the people we talked to are there sort of a Goldilocks zone of you don’t want too little, you don’t want too much. You want that just right balance. And I think with fermentation, that really happens a lot, right? Because if people have a really lousy ecosystem in their own GI track, and they get fermentation, maybe you can tell us a few of your insights with that, because fermented fermented foods with the NATOs, and the sois, and everything else is very, very healthy. But at the same time, if you go over, someone already has a pretty bad host, what kind maybe give us a little bit of your insights with that? I know, these are things we hadn’t really discussed. But that’s great to go to different areas.
Daniel Thompson: I mean, I do the patrician side is a stronger side for me. But no, I do feel like fermentation is important because it does bring up certain vitamins to the surface, but also feel like as you heal over time, your body wants fewer and fewer things that are concentrated, including fermentation. And that says the gut heals. Now this could be a year five, I don’t know. But as it heals, yeah, it resists too much of anything that’s, you know, concentrated, whether that be salt, sugar, that just, it just kind of gets sober. I think sobriety is the goal.
But I do think that to get there as I went through a lot of sauerkraut, and I did a lot of different things to get there. And then the daily like, I probably I can’t, like I’m telling on myself, because I actually if I really think about it, like I take, like when I go to the farmers market, I see there’s one line that has a line all the time, and that’s the raw milk.
And when I go to it was one of the reasons we went to farming farmers markets in the first place, but and so I get the raw milk, and I ferment it and I make like kind of like a farmer’s cheese, you know, like let it sit for a few days and then strain it and make like this farmer’s cheese, I eat it with honey and vanilla, whatever. And so this and I’ve noticed that this is kind of a weekly or BI monthly or whatever kind of thing I’ll do and it has provided all that bacteria, all that fermentation factors in the raw butter that we can’t find like Wilson factor for stiffness, and there’s other things that can’t be found without that raw element.
And so I have noticed that that has also been my probiotic it’s been my fermentation like I’ve been saying I don’t eat anything forever and it’s like no you kind of do you know and so but it’s just like it’s not acidic fermented anymore, technically, kind of it’s more like you know, milk and so yes, there is some foods that like need to be close to us.
They figured out when they did and they did the scan like they did a test on. Were there any American native Indians that still didn’t have cavities and stuff from the fallout of American foods in the modern world do is any of them left because there used to be great? Some specimens of that. And they found the only tribes that they worked with were I forget the name of the tribe, but it was people who had developed a raising cattle. And they had heard and milk and they had gone, they had shifted to milk. And so their teeth were great once again. And so to get us from that hunter-gatherer to where we are, now, the cow is a key piece to that, you know, and pigs and everything else. But like, so I do think that the fermentation sticks with us. And that in that way, but like, yeah, you’re right, like too much fermentation.
Even the Assyrians. I know that’s strange, but I remember reading some of their literature and it was in the like, like, cynical like the word meaning like it was killing the body too much. Fermentation is what they had turned it into. So they tried to get the right balance with it, like a corner, the plate, little bit, kind of, you know, like a condiment. Are condiments fermented? We don’t have fermented condiments anymore, but they used to be fermented even ketchup and, and all that.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, too. I like the thought process of the sobriety of GI health, right? And as far as you would think, Nate naturally the other way intuitively, and every time I think that it’s against the traditional way of thinking, it’s probably the right way, where you would think in the beginning, you know, I guess, as your health gets soberer, or your GI tract gets more balanced and diverse and Keystone bacteria in there that you don’t want is to be as potent because it now is this self-perpetuating machine.
Whereas you would think of it as the other way around, where when it’s not healthy, you would go less, and when it gets more healthy, you would get more, does that make sense? In terms of anti-intuitive to what you would be thinking?
Daniel Thompson: Yeah, no, you’re exactly right. And I think that it’s one of those systems that allows for a certain stability over time. And that’s the goal is to not be always, you know, the goal is to heal the body, soul, and spirit, it’s not to just be in the gym for 90 hours of your life, and to become kind of a stringent person, it’s to, like, heal all three spectrums, and have those three parts, you know, because otherwise, you get stuck on the physical alone. And that’s what happens when the foods aren’t right.
That’s why Hippocrates was so key because when the foods aren’t right, you have to be pumping out all those toxins, it’s detoxifying all those chemical plastics through sweating, and you have to stay in the gym, you know, and so we want to get people to have freedom in general and not to be forced to be so, you know, the gut has to always be given some probiotic, or it always has to be, you know, and it’s like, it’s like getting it to a state of sobriety, where there’s stability.
And, I think that foods play a key role in that and also deficiencies as we talked about the magnesium deficiency, you know, this stores on the hydroxy, apatite, but layer of the bone. So building up, that deficiency builds up a whole system in you that is subsequently used, like a Rolex watch, subsequently use that energy to recreate the structure and things like that. So the body becomes not only stable but it’s also got like, like, you know, fourth, it’s got a future power a little bit, you know, like it can take care of itself. It’s got a surplus.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s got a great point too, in terms of its, its, its infinitely intelligent way more so than we could micromanage our synthetic, you know, bringing into the body. And really, you just want to kind of give it keep it on its track, by giving it the great nutrients that are from the earth and have the same frequencies and minerals and everything that makes you healthy and eliminate all the adulterated, processed, genetic, modified, whatever it is toxic exposures, and this let the body do the rest, which is a good sort of dovetail into the heart of tradition, your company and magnesium, which you just started to talk about. And really, that’s how you became on our radar. So maybe we can talk about what is full-spectrum magnesium, and maybe we can kind of go from there.
Daniel Thompson: Well, I think full spectrum to me is just kind of it’s not it’s a self term that we that was you know, I can’t I came up with it just only because that we see cell full spectrum and that usually means we take a bunch of types of things and we put them all together in one and that’s full spectrum. Whereas like, for me, the full spectrum is understanding magnesium itself and understanding how it really works in the body. Like if there’s one word to define magnesium, for me, it’s flexibility.
That’s what it does in the human body. It renders everything flexible. It renders the bones, the teeth, and the nerve. herbs, everything viscous and flexible, and that’s kind of how it works. And so it gives like that, that that, you know, at the cellular level, it’s the same, it also allows for calcium to come in, but not too much, you know, and, and it keeps this kind of control on that to where the rigidity of the cell is controlled there too because calcium will over rigidify.
And then we have apoptosis and everything else. And so, the magnesium has this role and kind of balancing out structure to where it can become soft enough and flexible enough to work better, you know, your teeth would just break if they were all calcium, right?
So magnesium helps to bring that flexibility there. And so I feel like, when you understand it from that angle, and you understand the history, I really feel like modern medicine should be more programmed into history, because they really did a lot back then, to teach us about what’s happening. Now. I mean, if you get a guy on bipolar, and you give him some lithium, and you know, he could destroy his kidneys, possibly, maybe is his liver, you know, whatever, thyroid, and, you know, the Greeks said, hey, send them to a lithium bad, you know, and like, they would do that they had a different method, they weren’t harming anyone, you know, but they figured out another way to do the same thing without doing any harm.
And I feel like it’s a powerful, powerful testament to how we could operate. But so in the magnesium space, when they study history doctors, they’ll probably find that in magnesium of all places, which is where the Greeks set up a lot of this bathing culture. And they did it there. With some of the most famous baths were famous today, even for magnesium in the waters, because of the Dolomite type of, you know, it’s a type of stone that has, you know, half magnesium, half calcium, whatever.
So, it’s, it’s a very, like high magnesium concentration in that whole region there. And so they’re able to create these baths, they would use that as mortar, the Dolomite, they would, they would build that into the bath system, all of this stuff, leeches, I mean, even their plumbing system was lychee, it was all clay. So everything leads to magnesium, you know, and it was, there was a lot of like green clays and different types of clays they would use. And so. So, this whole system that was baked is basically a big leaching system of magnesium and minerals. And then they would bathe in it, you know, and they would heat it, which even turns everything up, right? And then they would bathe in it.
And, and because there’s so much, you know, attention to bathing, and this that was that culture was not about soap and hygiene that was really about mag deficiency minerals, a little bit of hygiene, too, but there was other stuff going on there. And so we get all those things, we taken those as supplements, now, they were smart to build it into their society where you didn’t have to remember to take it.
Now we have to remember to take supplements like magnesium for long periods of time, without even feeling anything in our bones, we just have to stay on it. So they built it in a way where we couldn’t get away from it. And I think that was kind of smart. And so especially the older crowd, you know, a lot of the arthritis that we see is a lot of that’s due to calcification, too.
And so we get calcium roaming around making everything worse. And so this is a low mag lifecycle, it doesn’t mean you can stop calcification, but it just means you can soften it and kind of not make it we’re not supposed to age, it’s supposed to go straighten and dovetail right, we’re not supposed to be on this farm or ramp, like limping on our way, the last 20 years or, and so I think that they understood something about that we did to our founding fathers, they did all those waters.
And they, you know, Jefferson would write about all this rheumatism and all these things that they were able to overcome to these waters. So there was something in the water, it wasn’t just magnesium, there’s also sulfur, there are other components. But magnesium was a big player. And so trying to help people find a way to overcome that deficiency through the skin, because you have this huge surface area that we should be using because you can bring more in without triggering the laxative of the kidneys.
People with IBS, can’t even take the pills, right, a lot of them. And so finding a way to help people to get it in the body through another system, which is intelligent, which copies the ocean, can actually man in the sea. And, you know, we know that you know, this, this, this history kept them from you. I mean, they had a stronger composition.
And so even the soils, they didn’t even have the magnesium deficient stores, but they still did the bats. So they still knew that there was a reason to do it. And so we’re just trying to help people find as many ways as possible to not harm themselves, and to maybe help a lot, you know, and so everything I try to recommend to people like from the fog rod down to the man, there’s nothing will ever harm you. It will it’s a risk because you might have to spend some money, but but like it won’t harm you and you can just try it out. You know? And so that’s kind of the way I try to do things.
The company was built just to bring that tradition. Did you know that in the medical system in France, they have that as part of their medical system? and that they will send people to different waters around the country, France. And for free, actually, it was actually the coolest part of their kind of bad system, but it was kind of the coolest part. And you can get that those needs covered, they’ll send you to this place for rheumatism, and this one for whatever. And so they have like their own little system set up. It’s a fascinating system. And we’re trying to learn from them and find a modern way to bring that to people.
That’s kind of what we’re doing. If you want to talk further, on the way people process magnesium, it is sad that most magnesium is technical grade magnesium, they use it for de-icing planes, it comes over on sheets, and then they I mean, in, you know, on, you know, big boats, and then they turn it into the supplements and everything else that we use. And there is a little bit of quality somewhere sometimes. But when you try to get a certificate of origin, nobody will give you the one they caught proprietary.
And so we kind of know what they’re doing. And so it’s just a cheap magnesium that’s been solvent extracted from undiscerning strata, and just chemically made purified by man to be the final thing. And what people don’t realize when they buy their glycinate citrate, is what rolls out of that, what’s the magnesium that’s going to roll out of that? Like the magnesium molecule itself? How was that made? How did they get that and so we just, we can’t even be sure of all the things.
I mean, people could tell you raw milk, and pasteurized milk look the same under a microscope, possibly, they look the same if you feel them, but they’re not the same. So we can’t get into that type of quantification right now. But I will tell you that like to go from a natural stone where it’s clear, you send spring water, you bring that back up that brine, you bottle, that brine and glass and you don’t touch anything, you get a better chance of having nature made molecule.
So this is made by nature of 250 million years Man’s not really involved here, except for bringing it up. And so we believe that this is a better magnesium and especially because there’s such a good huge source of it the size of which is mind-blowing, we actually have the same price point as others. So it’s like, just do it right. And plastics do contaminate magnesium, and we know that that’s why the olive oil, people from Spain stopped doing plastic, a lot of them because they realized what it did to the olive oil. And so we’re not being blinded out either. And I know that was a big spiel, but thank you for it’s great.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I tracked with you the whole way through that was great. I mean, I think just the benefit of getting it transdermally is a big point, because people can identify that, especially pound for pound, even if it’s not an optimal form that’s utilized by the body.
It’s, it’s having to be processed by the liver, and or it’s also causing intolerance, and they already have GI issues that they’re thinking to take it in the first place. And they’ll tell you firsthand that it will loosen the stool and they’re not able to tolerate it. But then on top of that getting it from a man-made sore or sorry a nature-made source, which I think that’s the problem with we what we alluded to earlier with the food and the naturally occurring nutrients and food versus synthetically or individually processed and trying to take out the secret formula.
And I guess I guess patenting it or copyrighting it so that you lose all the benefits of it. But you also increase the profits of your company not going down that pathway. But you know, synthetic B’s petroleum-based same problem. But you mentioned as far as which the other thing I like about your company, as you say it even on your website is you’ll scrutinize, you’re up for scrutiny to be able to test the quality and the source of your magnesium and where we like the quality of it.
And as far as you mentioned with the Greeks and the Dolomite what’s different about the rock I know I can’t pronounce the name of the rock that you you have for your magnesium, but how what is it? How is it pronounced? It’s called Misha’s Feet. b Okay, right. And go ahead and explain the quality of that magnesium or what’s special about that rock or how to potentiate or get the concentration of the ideal magnesium and the way that your company has been able to deliver that product.
Daniel Thompson: Well, the Aisha feat is actually it’s the only stone out there that is basically a solid magnesium fluoride. Most stones are like the current elite and others from the Dead Sea that’s currently like they’re like under the Dead Sea. And some of these like around that region, you could say they have, you know, a little more potassium, they’ll have other things, and um, we got to kind of get that out of there.
And then you make your product or you go to Salt Lake others bro mine, I gotta get that out of there. Mercury as well. Salt Lake, we got to get that out of there too. And then so we have to salt we have to use solvents and treat and get the stuff out. And then we can make magnesium oil and sell it and do all that stuff. So we don’t have any of that this is Misha’s feet. So be sure feet is naturally natural state magnesium chloride, it’s the clearest stone you can find with magnesium meaning clarity, you can see through it.
And so because of that clarity, that that that allows for just salt to melt, and then we just pull it up. So because of that discovery, you have like a natural way to do this without having to use any chemicals or anything to get it to happen. And unfortunately, you can’t just go locally, that’s why they’re doing this stuff. Sometimes they’ll just go to Salt Lake and then they just extract all the chemicals and then they make it and everybody’s happy. But you end up getting a you know, kind of a different product in the end.
And they always say the solvents are all pulled out perfectly. But we all know that there’s still some in there, and there are little pieces of things that just hang on the edges. And it just changes the way the magnesium works in the body for us. And then also, even if we’re wrong about that, like, it’s still the same price to get the other one. So it’s almost like okay, either way, we’ll just bet on nature if we can, you know, and so that’s kind of what we’re letting people do is just bad on nature.
But on the purity, we put all of our layers up on the site, we let people know about the geology, we let people know about this special formation that was where the first land mammals came onto the earth. Because through this Eckstein, like we talked about a lot of these things. And so a lot of people don’t, because once you’re buying industrial-grade stuff to make it cheaper, and people don’t really care about the molecule per se. That’s what they think, then you don’t talk too much about sources anymore.
And so, which which is it’s just different, it’s a different thing. And you know, like we get the CBD movement coming, you know, a lot of people, and I always tell me, it was like, Okay, first of all, magnesium is more essential to CBD. But second of all, like magnesium and CBD, they work together, as they work really well and together. But CBD The only problem with it is over time, there’s no structure at it.
And so you need the structure, the structure is part of that formula, where you’re trying to help the body detoxify, get things out, heal, deficiencies, be stronger, etc, you need to be able to have structure. So magnesium enhances the nerves over time, they become more flexible over time, and they injure less. So structure is a big part of the formula. So when you’re thinking about these other modalities, always think of structure as well.
Alongside and, and if you skip around from I mean like I said, you can go from, from the magnesium, to getting it internally, a lot of people, you know, we’re not in competition with pills. So like pills are fine, that three and eight. And that’s all good. I’m glad they’re out there making all sorts of stuff for different operations and surgical and this and they do all sorts of stuff.
But, but when you start taking it externally, it will eliminate both if there’s over, but you ended up getting this filtration system. And this allows for better input and you can abuse it, in a sense, because the sports people that use this high-level sports person, they just dose up like they don’t even count. They just go and they’re training and getting out of the body. One more little feature that connects with your podcasts without adrenal fatigue, is that I’m sure that you guys talk about heavy metals and their effects on the gut because the biome is controlling a lot of the acidity and then that comes back to the kidney. And then here we go.
And it all connects. But is that the in the Roman times when they would make salt? So when you make salt the product byproduct of salt is called bittern. And bitterness like a pure magnesium chloride. It’s like a, it’s like sort of the similar thing as the Bucha feet except B sheets made by nature. And this is kind of like processed out or whatever. Or this can be naturally processed out too. So but it’s a little different.
And so that, that that bitter they that’s how they would clean their water supply. That’s how they pulled cadmium and beryllium, and Mobium. And all this stuff out of the water supply in those baths and in those times was using the bittern. So what is it? What does that mean? That means that this chloride molecule, which is the Master Molecule in the human body, like when you eat like your almonds, that hydrochloric acid glorifies magnesium, there’s a chloride process always.
And so I can’t prove this. And this is one of my like, reaching theories. But like, you know, the first layer of your skin is acidic. The second layer is fat. So as that chloride comes in from the sea, over those 30 minutes, you’re in it, like, it turns that first that chloride into citrate as it comes in, and then it turns it into glycinate. So it basically makes food out of that same molecule as it comes in and touches all those layers. And so we’re buying all this stuff that the body naturally makes most of this dextro gr stuff is the leverage. Here’s the dextro deer that we’ve Found the body.
And so we’re trying to like just help people realize how smart our ancestors were, and help them find a way that they can be sure of history natural, and then you know, an alternative that can’t hurt. And we’re just kind of, we’re kind of riding that line right there, without wanting to bump heads. Magnesium is one of the most researched minerals in the world. So we’re okay with that. But just trying to offer a better solution.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, it’s wonderful, when I explain it, Daniel, to our patients, I like the term the magnesium burn rate, where if your demand for energy exceeds your supply for energy, every time you produce ATP and converts into ATP, it’s releasing magnesium in that process, to be able to create that energy.
And then you’re burning that all off, and you’re not getting it back. Because we’re so devoid of minerals in our soils, or everything you’ve just talked about, or better yet, I mean, we’re just not eating good quality food, because I always, you know, it’s cheap, cheap food.
And I was, you know, I love that saying, where instead of wondering why the food is so expensive, you should be wondering why, you know, it’s so cheap, right? Because if it’s really inexpensive food, what kind of quality food is in there? So awesome, great stuff. So the website is the heart of tradition, and your main product is the is transdermal magnesium, I’m sorry, I didn’t do my homework is there other products that you sell on there as well or that you promote?
Daniel Thompson: Or now we’re kind of like a one-trick pony with different sizes and things coming and some you know, roll-on applicator and other things coming around? And, you know, there are a few products in that in that domain. But like for now, that’s kind of all we’re doing. We do a little bit on, you know, we have some books we didn’t we’re gonna start a full nutrition blog as part of the site coming up soon, too. And, yeah, that’s pretty much it for now. For now, I haven’t seen the need to go into a second product, but I’ve been playing around with a couple of ideas, but those are secret.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, if it’s if you got what if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, right? I mean, at the end of the day, pick out what you got. So as far as we talked a little bit earlier, and potentially being able to give the listener a discount, we mentioned and I’ll put that in the show notes so that they’ll be able to get that. But the coming to an end here, I always like to ask what would you have wished, you know, knew then that you know that you know now that would have helped with either any stress-related disorders are being exhausted or being burnt out or overwhelmed, or any type of health challenges that you may have had. Now that you have your infinite wisdom now, what would you have told the younger, more naive, Daniel, to sort of accelerate your process?
Daniel Thompson: Well, wow, that’s such a good question. I probably, you know, got on the homeopathy a bit late in the game. And I feel like it was really helpful, especially the higher level homeopathy, which is called like, sensation level, which they do a lot in the UK and Europe and stuff like that. I felt like that was a little game-changer. For me, I had thyroid issues, and that actually helped me to come off the meds that I was on, my body did thicken a little bit, I think to compensate for the lack of warmth, and maybe even thought maybe even hormones. But it was healthy, it was a healthy change.
And so I probably would have got closer to that sooner. I also feel like because I did go down a vegetarian path for a certain period, I wasn’t really aware of the fact that like, you know, like, if you take some like buddy from India, and you compare them to like, manga, manga sin, or somebody from Scandinavia, which is my actual genetics, it’s just a whole nother world.
You know, and so I kind of was confused in a few worlds there and had to learn the hard way. For me, not for everyone that like animal foods were really the key to health. And the American Indians said that whenever we got sick, like you know, can’t whatever sick that sometimes the animals are the only way out. And so what that means is when we get sick, sometimes people think all right, more plant stuff, more juices, and more. We’ll drink like a lot of juices and plants, but the Indians were like No, do the opposite.
Let the animal convert something for you now and let them do the conversion. So you can translate that off to a health bonus for you. And so that’s where but if you don’t get sick, then maybe yeah, you can choose whatever path you need to go down. But so for me learning about animal foods and fats and all that stuff. I learned it a bit too late. And I feel like it took a toll on my system.
But now I don’t have any stimulants. I don’t drink coffee. I’m not against coffee. I think it’s great for the mind. but not so good for the heart, but great for the mind. And so, but I don’t do any stimulants, I have a good sleep schedule. And so I’m without, like, I feel like I’m getting to a level of sobriety in the body, finally. But I have learned a little bit on imported foods sometimes and farmers markets, and, you know, I’ve had to kind of like figure out where to get the right stuff and source.
But I wish I would have learned some of that a little bit earlier, I think I was sleeping at the wheel. And thinking that my little, my little tuna fish sandwich with french fries, like every day was gonna be, he’s gonna give me the game-changing reality. And it turns out, like, you know, God was saying, you’re gonna need to learn a lot more than that. So anyway.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that I think the body is incredibly resilient, right? And it has an amazing way of regenerating its tissues, looking at lungs that have been smoked upon for many, many years. And that person stopped smoking and all of a sudden creates new tissue.
And there’s a certain amount of learning your body, I think that’s the lesson really, that you’re talking about, always looking to improve. And I think that also was a really good point where I do a lot of genomic test interpretations. And just you’re not, your body is engineered over the millennia to process the environment in a certain way.
And if you bend the rules too much beyond what the genetic program looks like, even though the environment helps to press the computer, keyboards, if you will, the hard wiring is, isn’t as flexible as you think it will be. Number one, number two is a lot of vegetarians and vegans do have challenges in getting access to, especially if they’re not diligent with their diet with the essential amino, or choline or vitamin A and retinol, probably even k two now that you’re talking about that, it’s really hard to do that and be able to give your body the array that it needs. So understanding that the body and what percentages are enough for you to be in that ideal Goldilocks zone, but also be in that philosophical zone.
So anyways, I appreciate all your information. What I’ll do is I’ll put a link to your store and give them a discount for that. And I look forward to actually, to be honest, I haven’t tried your magnesium for myself, but I’m like going to be the first one in line to do that. And I’m excited to get going and I always learn a lot of information on this. And this was definitely one that I learned some great insights as well. So thank you so much for sharing your time today. I really appreciate it.
Daniel Thompson: Thank you so much. That was good for me as well.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Take care. Bye
If you are interested in trying full spectrum heart of tradition, topical magnesium and want to save 20% use discount code DRJOEL20, go here:
The post Why Full Spectrum Magnesium Abilities Outshines All Other Forms? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of about your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And it’s really exciting for me to interview a new friend of mine, Dr. Seth Gilson. Seth was born and raised in South Florida. He graduated with a degree in Biology from the University of Florida. And then he completed his dental school at NOVA Southwestern.
He has been an avid sports and health enthusiast, and he’s played soccer in both South Florida and New York, at the collegiate and professional levels. So he has a mission to not only help oral health, but overall health nutrition environment, when he’s consulting, diagnosing, treating, and coaching his patients and clients. So that’s what makes it so interesting to talk to you today, Seth, so thank you so much for being on the call.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Of course. Thank you, Joe.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so in that bio, was there anything that happened or just you already knew you wanted to get into dentistry, kind of tell us how you ended up winding up in the dental field.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, it’s, um, it’s nothing particularly special to be perfectly honest. By I mean, long story short, I was my focus was professional soccer. And after sustaining an injury with that, I shifted, and I was always into health and wellness, I was into nutrition and fitness because that’s where my focus was in my life. But when that shifted, I was also good at math and science. So I’m like, okay, my mom was nice and has been an ICU nurse since before I was born.
So I kind of had that, that medical background in the house my whole life growing up. So I transferred to UF and took a course there called Introduction to professional medicine. And it kind of takes you through all the different professions in medicine and things like that, from chiropractics to cardiology, interventional radiology, and obviously, dentistry.
And it was something I never really thought about, but I was intrigued by it. So I started getting involved in more research and shadowing different doctors at hospitals and private practice. And it came to me that one of the cornerstones of health that we just don’t realize is our mouse, it’s, it’s how it’s the most interactive other than our skin, it’s the most interactive kind of organ that we have with it with the outside world. And what’s going on with their mouth impacts what’s going on with their body.
And one of the ways I refer to the mouth is it’s a doorway and a window. And it’s a doorway, meaning things 99.9% of the time only go in through the mouth. But it’s a window because you can also see the inside from the outside. So a lot of times you can tell what’s going on with a mouth bait, I mean, with the body based on what’s going on in the mouth.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. So you knew once you did that kind of broke up when you mentioned the different course that you took, but I guess with all the different disciplines, it was a, an immediate resonance of this is what I want to do. And that I, I see that there’s this whole oral biome, like what was it that was that right from the get-go? Is that sort of evolved over doing it?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, that wasn’t right from the get-go. Like, my initial spark of interest is like, oh, okay, I can use the knowledge and the things that interest me, but in my mind, like math and science and stuff like that, but there’s also an artistic side of dentistry, and then it’s more interactive with people and it’s very hands-on, and I was goalkeeper in soccer, I was always using my hands.
I like doing, I don’t just like seeing or researching. I appreciate researching and reading and things like that. But the activity of doing and being an active participant in treatments and ongoing situations with patients was intriguing to me. And as I said, it allowed me to explore my creative side in the sense because of that artistic aspect of dentistry as well. That was the initial kind of pull toward it.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, and it’s interesting because I look back at my journey, and I know when I injured my back, and I didn’t want to go for surgery, and someone helped me that was a chiropractor. That’s what I wanted to do, right? Because it sort of had that unique experience.
So it wasn’t like you had a specific experience with the mentor doctor that you decided to do it was just more of the right, the right feel at the right time. It combined your background with your hands and your skill set to be able to get but you know, I’m just curious, like, no one ever really feels like they want to be in someone’s mouth all day, right? I mean, what did that kind of resonate with you or like, did you kind of think about that or not really, you know?
Dr. Seth Gilson: I don’t recall Oh, having any, any, I didn’t even think about that part at the beginning. And so like I said, once I took that course, I was also exploring different options. As I said, my mom’s an ICU nurse. So I had kind of access to go in and shadow and be part of research and things at the hospital, I could see what the different aspects of medicine are like.
And it just, it appealed to me to be able to interact with people more so like it was a little bit like you said it was the right thing at the right time. More so then something significant in my life happened. Now, later on, which I can talk about now, if you want that, that is something that I did have a, there was an impactful period of time in my life in my when I was already practicing, that kind of shifted me into the space where I’m at now.
Dr. Joel Rosen So gotcha, we’ll get there in a second. So I was just going to follow it up. Because I, again, felt like you there was an interview that you did with me, and that was, this is not payback. It was I just felt like it was a great interview. And there were certain questions that I had to think about. My question to you is going to be a bit, just one of those. Just no filtered questions, if you will. So was there a certain aspect of it because I guess when I got into chiropractic, it was the same thing. Like I see a lot of similarities. I was a soccer player, my mom was a nurse. And so there are a lot of similarities there.
And when someone when I got my back injured, it’s like, okay, this is what I want to do. I finally knew what it was. And it was gonna be a professional job. I didn’t know how much insurance would reimburse and what the public thinks about us.
And, you know, there’s a lot of things you don’t see foresight with. But with dentistry, I don’t think there’s any confusion about whether it’s a really good professional income to get into dentistry, let alone I like that I’m working with people and I’m doing so was did that, I guess, to question that, that factor into getting into it for you, and what percentage would you say of dentists that get into dentistry are are doing it? Because mainly because it’s a very good profession to get into financially. What would you say about that?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, I can honestly say, when I was debating what in college, when I, when I transferred after soccer, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And just having a good profession and making a good income, for whatever reason, wasn’t at the top of my mind. And as I said, I just had specific interests, and I knew what I would be good at, and that I was like, Okay, what, what would I like to do for the rest of my life and science and math, it’s just always been something that intrigued me.
So I knew it was going to be something in the medical field. Now, I’ve learned a lot since and I’ve broadened my horizons since then. And I know there’s a lot more than math and science going on in the world. But I just knew it was gonna be something in medicine.
And as I said, it was just the right moment at the right time, like dentistry had never even occurred to me other than going to the dentist for cleanings and stuff like that never even crossed my mind. Nobody in my family is a dentist, I don’t even think I knew that. That is like the actual income that a dentist would make at that point. Now, as far as it’s really hard for me to speak for other people.
I can say from my experience when I was in dental school, I would say a minority of people were concerned with how much they were going to make once they finish school to put an actual percentage on it. It’s really hard. I don’t know now that I’ve been practicing for over 12 years. I think the perspective definitely changes and I don’t necessarily believe that that’s a reflection on the individuals.
Yes, we all need to make a living and yes we live in the United States which is a capitalistic economy, I mean, to have a comfortable life you have to make a good living and financially speaking there are a lot of other aspects to living a good life, which we may touch on but to stay focus on on your question. I think the way the medical industry itself is just set up with corporations and big pharma and these types of I don’t know, these almost seem like black holes that we’ve kind of created for ourselves, you get into these cycles, where things are so insurance driven as you had mentioned, that volume becomes a necessity. Just to stay in business in a lot of situations.
Now, there are a few models in which it’s taken me over 12 years to come to a bit of an understanding and reach a point where we don’t have an insurance-driven practice. And some people, some practices are just completely dismissive of insurance, like we don’t do anything with it. Now, we’re not in network with insurance where I practice, but, depending on the type of insurance that patients have, we will accept their insurance, and then their insurance reimburses the patient.
So whatever insurance you have, whatever deal you’ve made with the insurance, they’re gonna give that money back to you. We have nothing to do with it, we’ll just send it and fill it out for you as a courtesy because that can be a hassle for people that don’t do these things. Right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I appreciate you answering the question. And being a good sport about it. It’s more of my thought. And it’s very similar in the chiropractic profession to right, you could be insured and out of insurance and so forth. I was just curious are people that are getting into the profession, are they doing this because they just have this passion for the oral microbiome and the teeth and structural fixing it? Is there a little bit of both, they just kind of weren’t sure. And it sounded like a good idea. I just I was just kind of curious in a lot of different ways. So let’s Okay, go ahead.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, I was just gonna say that. I mean, it’s really hard for me to say now, the few people that I that are trying to get into a dental school that I know, personally, really are passionate about health and dentistry in particular, those are generally foreign-trained dentists that have moved here that want to continue practicing. But I would say the majority of people do care and enjoy what they’re doing.
And right. Again, it’s just the cycle that we find ourselves in, in this medical system that kind of breaks people down. And like that medical burnout that a lot of people experience, it’s because we’re not taught how to handle ourselves, let alone healthily present ourselves and practice six, five to six days a week, and see X amount of patients a day, and do our best and be mindful about it. We’re just not trained or educated in that in that aspect. Right. Right. Good.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you. So as far as switching it up, your holistic dentists slash biological dentists, so maybe give us the genesis of that, was that something that you wanted to get into from the get-go? Or you’ve kind of evolved into that? And maybe for the listener, that doesn’t know what exactly that means? Or what’s different between a regular dentist that’s not holistic or biological? Let’s maybe talk about those two things.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Okay. So it was 100% an evolutionary process. I would say 90, at least 95% of dentists, if you go and you speak to them, it’s probably gotten, it’s gotten better. But 95% of dentists have never even heard of biological dentistry. People have heard of holistic medicine.
So that’s, that’s why that term holistic, is used. It’s just so people, just hearing that term, know what you’re talking about in it, or at least have an idea. Now, a lot of times there’s there’s a negative stigma attached to that, which is what we’ll talk about now.
So what biological dentistry is, it’s completely science-based it there’s a lot of research that goes on all around the world, surrounding biological dentistry. And what that essentially is, it’s similarly to functional medicine, it’s looking for the root cause of what’s causing the problems in the body or in, in this case, the mouth, and how oral health is connected to systemic health, and how systemic health is connected to oral health and how they interact with each other through different avenues like the oral microbiome, which is in the gut microbiome, which is a huge topic of research these days.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So with that being said, not 90% or plus, not knowing it’s the concept that just seems logical with what you explained to me is not being taught in the traditional approaches, or the majority, like 90% of the curriculums, they they don’t have very much training on that. And it’s just sort of reductionistic let’s just structurally address the mouth. And that’s it. That’s all.
Dr. Seth Gilson: A lot of it is very reductionistic. And they’re very, they do recognize correlations with certain diseases to oral health, like diabetes and cardiovascular disease, because they’re, I mean, they’re just pro-inflammatory or hyper-inflammatory disorders. But one of the big things that we do in biological dentistry is focused on methodology and mature reels.
And what we use and what we put are essentially like fillings are implantation into your tooth or a dental implant. So to speak, what we put in your body needs to be what’s called biomimetic or biocompatible, meaning your body needs to accept whatever it is that we’re putting in, and the least amount of toxic materials that we can use, the better. And those are the types of things that we look at. I mean, even we go as far as providing patients with blood tests, so they can go get blood drawn, and see if they are reactive to any of the materials used in dentistry, whether it’s a filling material, whether it’s a polish that they use in the hygiene room, whether it’s an oral rinse that use two different kinds of toothpaste, or pretty much anything you can imagine.
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s fascinating stuff. So do you find that because you stress the fact that the biological dentist is scientific-based, which, to me seems redundant, I would assume it would be right? But I would imagine the reason you’re saying that is because maybe some of the opposition from those that are sort of the rigid reductionistic traditionally trained, don’t feel that there’s a validation to it, or they justify that it’s not science, or what was the need to sort of? Well, by that, yeah.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Because I mean, for example, with like fluoride and mercury amalgam fillings, they’re the research that’s been done around these things. Who’s, who’s done the research, and where’s the research originated from?
And a lot of times, we don’t know, these things, and the way the research is done. I mean, there’s an incentive to do things in a very particular way. Whereas biological medicine or holistic medicine, we, it’s it, there’s no incentive, there’s that we’re not looking for a particular outcome. We’re testing and observing results, creating hypotheses, testing, and seeing if the results are the same again.
And what we see time and time and time, again, is that these things are neurotoxic, for example, Florida and mercury in the body. And when you have bigger governing bodies for a bit, especially in this particular case, the dental, dental, administrative bodies just don’t seem to recognize that these things are a problem. And you have to I mean, once you start looking deeper into where the research originates from, or where the funding from, this comes from, to this university, which did the research which got published in this article, I mean, so yes, modern dentistry that you that we would see in the in a dental school is research-based, but it’s where who’s doing the research is your big question.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? And you’re tipping over sacred cows, right? I mean, you’re these are things that have been long with standard and, I guess, clinically proven with Biased or Unbiased information. And it’s like that with every research, by the way, not just that, but there are some, it’s interesting, I can’t remember what the book was.
But the story I read on how fluoride got approved, was an I don’t want to butcher the entire story. But from what I remember, it was sort of a waste product of heavy industrial production, and being able to not pollute the waters or be able to monetize it unbiasedly create results that would show there’s a need for it, it’s just quite amazing.
So does there sort of just, it’s not the angle I want it to take, but is there a certain doctor, like I know when some doctors call themselves functional medicine doctors, but they’re not functional medicine doctors, they do things very traditionally, they don’t look at functional ranges. They’re prescribing medications, and they’re certainly not functional. So do you have that same phenomenon of doctors that want to sort of capture, the market that they would otherwise not be able to get by saying that they are holistic or biological as well?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, two things. So to rewind a little bit with the fluoride. Another really interesting fact about that is that I mean, we’re in the age of double-blind, placebo-controlled studies and all these things. There was no intensive research done on fluoride before it was implemented in the water supply. And if you look at, I mean, I’ve posted about these things on Instagram, and you can see the actual charts of different countries around the world and how they’ve reduced the amount of fluoride in the water as time has gone on. And it’s, well why because now that they’ve started doing research, they see that there are problems with it, and it bioaccumulates in the body.
And that fluoride is just everywhere. It’s in the sun. Oil. So it’s in our food. It’s in water. It’s in 95% of dental products that eat not just toothpaste, but everything you get actually at the office like, even though a lot of times when the hygienist cleans your teeth and they polish your teeth afterward, but at times that has fluoride in it.
And as I said before, it’s a neurotoxin. So now, going back to what you were saying, I have heard from other patients that have come to see me that other practitioners say their biological dentists, or functional dentists, and they’re not doing things the way we do them, which is, for example, using what’s called the Smart technique. That’s the safe mercury amalgam removal technique that was created by the IAEA OMT, which is the International Academy of oral medicine, toxicology.
So they’ve come up with basically a baseline standard of how biological dentistry should be practiced. And then there are layers to that, of course, and again, that’s the completely research-based organization. That’s one of the organizations so if anybody’s curious, you can just go to iaomt.org. And you can find it and it’s all on there for free, you don’t have to pay for it.
You can see all of this about amalgam fillings, you can see things about fluoride, you can see things about root canals, different toxicity, things that are used in general practice. So yes, people are practicing that say they’re biological or functional and aren’t doing things to standard, biological standard, based on what I’ve heard from patients.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. So as far as the I M O, T goes, is that if I’m a doctor, if I’m a doctor, like yourself, and I have the mindset to be biological, and I joined that organization, is it a matter of a membership fee? Or do I take certifications to hold my status? What entailed being a member of that association?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Oh, they, they just, they because this is no, they have, I haven’t heard anybody in from that organization say this directly to me. But to me, biological dentistry is just dentistry. That’s just how dentistry should be practiced. So they agree. Yeah.
All of the information in the videos, and educational videos for dentists on how to do things, it’s free, you can just go on the website and see how it’s done. Now to be to get a certificate from them just like other professional organizations, because that’s the only way they make money is through donations, dentists that join them and pay their membership fees annually, right? So yes, you pay membership annually. And I mean, we have meetings two or three times a year, there are different groups and things that you can be a part of, there’s mentorship, opportunities within the organization.
There’s also you can become a fellow of the organization and kind of work your way up. As I said, there are different layers to how proficient you want to become, and well known as a biological dentist.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you’re not an impostor, just like hanging out at the I am or if you’re not of that mindset, and you have that sort of that, that, I guess the philosophy of approaching holistic health care that way. So I guess just to get off the subject with one more, one more just inquiry, Seth, would you say that, as the profession ages and turns over and have newer younger, maybe more, I would think, more open-minded, or at least not as dogmatic about the research and the studies and where it came from?
That there’s a turning over, like they say, like, I don’t remember the exact saying, but as theories change as people die, right, because you don’t have the staunch, dogmatic people defending something that’s not accurate. They die and now you have the truth prevails. Right. So are you seeing a turnover in the profession in that case, or not? Really.
Dr. Seth Gilson: I would say it’s slow. And that’s because the big corporations, especially like the big dental corporations that are now taking over, right, instead of private practices, you have a lot of these bigger organizations that are creating, like 10 offices in South Florida, of whatever name of the offices, and a lot of times they offer because these are big corporations they can offer recent graduates, great deals coming out of school.
I mean, that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t understand like you were talking about before that, yes, you can. You can make a very good living as pretty much any kind of doctor but as a dentist, but you come out of school with a lot of loans, too. So when someone’s willing to pay you and our salary and you get these bonuses and things like that. It is very intriguing to some of the just recently graduated has hundreds of 1000s of dollars in loans to step into that kind of realm of things. And then that’s just basically another corporate rabbit. I mean, right Mr. Wheel, so to speak.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. They’re not doing safe mercury amalgam removals, they’re not doing the sort of different approaches in terms of the methodology and the materials being used and the fluorides. And the awareness of the of all of that correct. They’re not.
They’re not? Yeah, I mean, I could see the intrigue, you know, especially the same thing for me when I graduated and moved to Florida and had to wait to take my license, the only places that would hire you are the big pie Mills, right? And they’re not really what I wanted to go to school for.
And I lasted two weeks and like, Okay, this is it, I’m not going to stay here anymore. So it’s unfortunate that happens. But anyway, so switching things up here. So I guess I sort of have a left-field question. What do you hate the most about your profession?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, I bet that’s easy to answer that in the insurance issues, the insurance companies, and how insurance straight I know, in my practice, I mean, now, I don’t I don’t have that. But we have it a little bit, because as I said, we still have, and we still will submit things for patients.
But the downgrading or the refusal, to cover something for a patient when the patient was told, or it’s in their plan that this will be covered, or they cover it differently. There are endless excuses or reasons as to why an insurance company will deny a claim. I’m sure this happens with yours, your feeling.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I remember when I remember in a past life, yeah, yeah, you didn’t rub your stomach and tap your head and jump on your foot and have a half-moon out and the winds blowing north to west, you’re not gonna get approved of certain, you know, procedures.
Dr. Seth Gilson: And it’s just everything’s insurance driven, rather than health driven for the unique individual. And that’s why that’s one of the big reasons that I’ve shifted to where I’m at because everybody’s unique, and all of our health needs are unique.
Everybody’s not the like, you’re talking about for how you stare at everybody’s, you look and everybody’s different people’s mouths every day. How is that intriguing, everybody’s so unique and different. And, that it needs to we need to be treated that way. In all of medicine. Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as that, it’s a good segue, then in terms of you have your social media, and you’re, you’re out there, and you have something called Art of mindful medicine. So I’m curious to know the genesis of that. But in your intro, you talk about you doing all these interviews, and this research or just going into these different areas, because you can’t specialize in everything.
And you would want to be able to get as much information as you can. So two-part question, what does it mean, the art of mindful medicine? And what else would you be specializing in are what is what areas are you wanting to go into with that being the case?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, so the art of mindful medicine? I mean, where do I start? Okay, so I’m also a yoga practitioner and a yoga teacher. And mindfulness has become a huge part of my life, over the past six or so years. And when the pandemic started, I had been looking to, how can I do something because before that, let’s see, in 2018, I almost was getting burnt out, I was tired of just sort of treating the same thing over and over again, and not not not being able to help people. So healing rather than treating.
And it got to the point where I was burnt out and couldn’t stand how practices run and how the insurance everything was so insurance driven. And I just wasn’t happy with how things were going. So I took about a seven, seven-month hiatus and was left medicine completely. And then I sort of decided through my self-discovery and self-reflection that I would be a better, more beneficial, and greater change, if of any change from within medicine rather than from the outside.
So through that, I started practicing and viewing the world differently. And that’s when I started looking into and found biological dentistry. I had to seek it out myself. Like nobody told me about it. I was just doing my research on these things. And then the art of mindful medicine came about at the beginning of the pandemic, as I said before because, at that point, we couldn’t even work we weren’t allowed to see patients unless it was on an emergency basis. So I said, this is the opportunity for me to continue to go within and see what can I do to give back beyond what I do in my practice.
So I came up with the name of the art of mindful medicine. And I wanted to interview other practitioners that viewed the world in a similar way that you and I view the world through a health care system, rather than a sick care system. And through holistic medicine, natural medicine, and functional medicine come together and find the root cause of what’s going on with the unique individual.
And I want to learn from people like yourself and share the things that I’ve learned and have conversations. So we can share this with people that don’t have the opportunity to look up what Chinese medicine is, what biological dentistry is what functional medicine is. So you can come and see on a channel, you can learn from a vegan cardiologist, two different biological dentists to functional medicine doctors, like yourself about how lifestyle impacts everything that we do in life.
And it’s not just your genetics, or it’s not just luck of the draw that you’re gonna whether you’re gonna be healthy or sick. So that mindful approach that awareness of myself and the opportunity that I have to share what I’ve learned with other people, and to in this present moment, that’s where the art of mindful medicine kind of stems from because like I said, I just did, I’ve done the research, and I’ve done rounds, and I’ve shadowed in hospitals and different doctors offices, I see how medicine operates. And mindfulness, the number one place mindfulness should be practiced, is in medicine. And in what I’ve seen, and what other people have shared with me, it is the opposite of that, where mindfulness is lacking in medicine, in the western world anyways. So that’s kind of where that whole channel on YouTube stems from? That’s great. Thank you for sharing.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as where does that fit in now with your practice, in terms of how you approach your patients and how it’s being received? And what additional role do you play? What what’s where, where are you now and where are you headed?
Dr. Seth Gilson: So it allows me to, again, have had a greater scope a bit a better view of the person as a whole, rather than just above their neck. Now, it’s not that I treat other things, but I can tell people how I’ve chosen to live life.
And I can tell people how these things have had an impact on my life and what I’ve learned through other practitioners like yourself and refer patients to other practitioners like yourself when they have this kind of problem. And then we work together, and we create, like a health team, so to speak, because we have to address it, and then when people are sick, you have to start from the ground up. And that’s we have to cover all of our bases, and how that’s worked for me.
So it’s allowed me to learn a lot about different different areas of medicine and health that I just have, we there are only so many hours in the day. And being able to share that with patients say, Hey, I spoke to this person, we did an interview, you can watch this video, you can go watch their videos, here, you can find all this information, go explore, educate yourself to some degree, and learn about where these problems in yourself are coming from. And then we can have higher level discussions and start implementing new things in your life to be healthy.
And where that’s leading me. I don’t have I just know it’s a direction, it’s not necessarily a destination. And it’s one which I constantly seek to become the greatest version of myself, learning as much as I can and constantly being a student.
And not just learning from other practitioners like you, but learning from people learning from the patients, because people that’s one of the biggest things that I’ve learned to do is to just listen. And that’s one of the biggest differences and the way I practice now from the way I practice before is patients and spending time with people. And sometimes, it can get a little carried away, it might spend a little too much time talking, talking to people.
But creating those kinds of relationships and creating a level of trust and respect for each other makes a huge difference. I mean, when when I authentically want to help you and you feel that it makes a difference in how you want to approach the whole situation yourself. And that’s what The Art of mindful medicine is that’s, that’s what I’ve tried to create for myself. And that’s one of my outlets in sharing it. So it’s a direction. And I just continue to want to grow that aspect of my life and my practice and share it with as many people as I can.
Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure, I know, thank you for sharing, I think it’s having the most impact right on the people that sit in your chair, beyond just opening their mouth. And it’s a win-win, the more that you can listen to them and hear them as a person and what their challenges are, who they are, it enriches you as well. So it’s an equal exchange of energy.
As far as I would imagine, with having a biological practice base, these people are going to be more open to this versus if you were in the insurance-based model, they might necessarily not want to hear it, and you’re going to be going upstream. So just a quick pivot as far as what you love most about what you do, because we said, hey, what about love now?
Dr. Seth Gilson: What I love most, the first thing that comes to mind is to get getting to know people, I think we’re so worth we’re such amazing beings. And we’ve learned and can share so much with each other. And I constantly have the opportunity to communicate and meet new people daily.
And like I said that I’m a constant student, as I said, and I get I love the opportunity to learn from others every single day.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Do you find at all that the external rewards, whether it’s a different smile? A more? I guess even physical changes because of whatever toxic elements or chemicals, better health from that standpoint, maybe even less pain?
Because they’re not in a crisis like that. Do you ever see the product of your work immediately? And does that? What does that like? What are some of the rewards you get from that?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Absolutely. I mean, for example, one of the most common bad habits that people have, that’s probably one of the most underdiagnosed issues in dentistry is what’s called sleep-disordered breathing, which is on the same spectrum as sleep apnea.
And one of the symptoms of that is grinding our teeth. And this has been something that I’ve dealt with too. So it’s been, it’s very close to home for me to be able to talk to people about it. And people that are grinding clench their teeth for whatever reason that it’s going on. Have, they suffered severely, I mean, jaw pain, neck pain, back pain, you probably have seen a lot of patients with this headaches, migraines, just they don’t get, they can’t they don’t get good sleep, which is instrumental for our health asleep.
So being able to work with people and get them to breathe better, and create devices or processes, which help them prevent them from grinding their teeth. And the inst, almost instant relief of pain, in some cases is amazing. I mean, the people the color comes back in their faces.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s great. So one of the that’s a good segue into just the role not so much yet into the oral microbiome because I didn’t want to get into that. But more in terms of minerals and food quality, and the arches and the density of the bones and cavities and so forth. I guess.
Have you been doing it for 12 years? Did you mention that are a little over 12 years? Have you seen are you seeing now a change or more of an epidemic of bone density? Just the arches and a lot of consequences of societal changes environmentally accelerated in the last 12 years? Is that a big part of why we’re seeing some of these challenges more and more?
Dr. Seth Gilson: I think it’s a combination of things. So as my awareness has broadened, and become greater, I’ve started to look and notice things more. Now, and you look at studies and if we read and we can see the tendencies over the last 50 years, and how airway collapse and jaws not fully forming and or people narrowing of the faces and things like that is We’ve been a tendency like there’s nobody can deny it. It’s just the question, the debate is around why.
And, yes, nutrition is a huge part of things. So mineral density and what you know, our body is made of what we eat. And if we don’t eat nutrient high quality, nutrient-dense foods, we don’t get high-quality, nutrient-dense results. So, yes, jaw formation and arch with and proper, proper dentition spacing and things like that. It is impacted by nutrition.
And when I say nutrition, it’s what we eat, but, but also how we eat chewing our food is one of we are chronic chewers in the United States. And what I have to coach people to do kind of is, is to have at least 30 chews per bite of food. And one of the problems is processed foods, you don’t have to chew them, because it’s already processed for you. It’s pre-digested food, essentially.
So all the starch, heavy starch foods and things like that, that aren’t whole plant-based foods, you don’t have to chew very much. So you can choose, you can put it in your mouth, bite three, four or five times and swallow down and no problem. We need to be eating real foods, because not only is that a natural cleansing process for our teeth, but it stimulates the jaw structure and the jaw bone to form properly. So getting kids to do this from a very early age is essential.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great, great answer. So as far as some of the challenges or some of the things that you remediate that you look at that are some of the topics you’ve talked about on your channel, and you’ll share that with our listeners. And we’ll put it in our show notes before we’re done. Three topics I guess we would talk well about I don’t know if you’ve probably talked about the third one, I didn’t have a chance to do as much Intel as I wanted. But you’re talking about root canals.
Right. So we’ll go there. We’re talking about mercury amalgams. And then I want to get into a few cavitations, and so forth. So maybe, can you talk tell us about root canals? In terms of taking them out? Leave them? I know, you mentioned that that’s 100% decision based on the patient and the doctor, but as the doctor says, what, what what what do you like, what do we need to consider and why is it harmful? And what yeah, just give us the ABCs, one, two threes on that.
Dr. Seth Gilson: So why it’s potentially harmful is because the anatomy of teeth is very complex, especially when you get into the root structure. So Root Canal, which may you people may or may not know is that you basically take out the main nerve of the tooth, and then you have to fill that with a biocompatible material to leave what’s essentially a dead tooth in the jaw.
Now, the problem is, there’s a lot of like I said, the anatomy is very complex. So there are a lot of different canals in the teeth that we can’t properly clean an instrument. With the technology that we have. Now. They’re, they’re using different Sonic technologies and lasers and things like that to try and become able to sterilize teeth completely. But at this point, we can’t, we’re not able to guarantee the sterilized teeth 100%.
And then that so some form of tissue or bacteria is left behind in the tooth to fester. And there’s no more blood supply to the tooth because that’s been cut off when the root canal is done. So the immune system can’t go and fight that area of the body so infection, festers with anaerobic bacteria generally. And they create endotoxins, a lot of times, that create a dental abscess or an infection in the jaw. And how that is going to affect me versus you versus somebody else is very unique to the individual.
Some people don’t even know it, I mean, some people are also much more in tune with their health, and we have a different toxic burden, so to speak. So I might have my jar of toxic burden might be a gallon, whereas yours might be a quart. So you wouldn’t be able to handle as many issues and inflammation going on in the body as mine might be able to. So how that’s going to result in I mean, these types of infections has been having been linked to certain types of cancers Alzheimer’s disease to thyroid disorders.
I mean, there’s just a plethora of different things that have been linked to root canals and what can happen from these types of infections that are left when not done properly. Now, is that every single root canal No, some, I mean, how do we check for these things? Ideally, now it’s in my view, the standard of care should be using a CT scan 3d imaging to be able to see what’s going on in the person’s jaw. And generally, if there are no signs, no symptoms, no nothing going on.
Most of the time, I’d say we can leave it alone in those types of circumstances because we also have to live with it, we have to live in the real world too. Not everybody can just, you know, come in and start, some people have four or five root canals. Some people can’t either or either don’t want to, for whatever reason, or can’t afford to just have all these teeth taken out just because they.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Be an implant I’m sorry, interrupt. So if you have a root canal that you’re revising, you’re just replacing the entire like, there are so many questions I have. So what are you doing to revise the root canal?
Dr. Seth Gilson: So if there’s an infection with a root canal, what you do essentially at that point is you can choose to have the root canal redid, which I would just never recommend because the success rate is substantially lower than what just doing it in the original that for the first time.
And the alternative is taking the tooth out. To clean out the entire infection, we use ozone at the office as an anti-microbial as well. And then generally, in bone grafting the area, we use something called PRP, which is the patient’s blood that we spin in a centrifuge, and it concentrates the patient’s healing cells in the body into a little membrane.
And we put that over the extraction site and you let that heal. Then later on, you can choose to leave it, which I don’t generally recommend, you can also have a dental implant placed, or you can have something removable place. But the ideal situation is to have a dental implant because that’s the closest thing you can get to natural teeth.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Thank you. So just to back up, why would someone need the root canal in the first place? What went wrong?
Dr. Seth Gilson: So the nerve became damaged irreversibly in some way or another? Whether it’s through a cavity through trauma, fractures, or something like that.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s typically a cavity, right? If there’s is that the majority of the reason someone’s going to need.
Dr. Seth Gilson: A root canal? I would say yes because a lot of times the tooth fractures because there was a cavity that wasn’t treated. Right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: And that could be secondary, not just eating sugary foods, but because of minerals and density and fluoride. And so as far as when you said cleaning the instrument, you’re saying the things that you go in there to do the root canal? Is that what you’re saying? That you’re not able to disinfect the instrument that you’re using? Or you’re not eight when you say instrument you’re not able to? When do when you remove the root?
Dr. Seth Gilson: When I mean instrument, I mean, we use the instruments, but I was talking about instrumenting in the tooth, so we’re not able to completely sterilize the internal environment of these root canals. 100%, right. Are there?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Now you also mentioned biocompatible. What biocompatible materials? Yeah, I mean, what’s the difference between just a regular not bio biological dentist and a traditional dentist with the materials that they’re using?
Dr. Seth Gilson: So a lot of the fit just for example, well, fluoride, and mercury amalgams. I mean, some people still place metal fillings and mercury amalgam fillings in people’s teeth, which is astonishing to me, but they still do it. And Mercury is a neurotoxin.
Fluoride is a neurotoxin, and fluoride is in definitely most composite, resin-filling materials. It is something that gets released over time. Well, so the material is placed, it’s cured, it’s put it’s hard and it’s in the tooth. And over time, they figured out ways to have fluoride slowly leach from that material to help stabilize to stabilize the tooth from what they say. Now, again, fluoride is a neurotoxin.
If you ask these reps in these companies, how well do you know how much fluoride is released from these and for how long? Do they have no idea? And if and the ones that do require you to sign a nondisclosure agreement to tell you the information?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. So okay, so as far as are you? How are you when you do is it that 3d Columbian X-rays that you’re talking about are the gold standard? And then are you seeing sort of silhouettes, pockets of dark spots that wouldn’t suggest infections?
How are you determining the gold standard of Yup, it’s infected, we need to do something about it or No, it’s not or your toxic load is not that bad as mine what else goes into deciding that like when you do the like, when you do the X-ray, how do you determine?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, what we do is, we always have a radiologist, a trained radiologists read these reports are creating reports. So they create reports and we oh, we review the pictures as well. And a lot of time Once you just you can see the infection, either an infection or a spacing between the tooth in the bone, meaning there’s some sort of inflammation there. And sometimes there’s not. And then again, it’s just something to watch.
And if there are no signs of anything going on, then it’s something that we just monitor every three to five years. Because, look, we’re three-dimensional objects. If we just take a regular x-ray, that’s a two-dimensional picture of what’s going on in the CT scan seat, we can see things in 3d. And you can create slices, where you can see exactly what’s going on in different layers, both the width and height of the tooth.
So you can see not only if there’s an infection, but where it is and how big and where it’s extended to if it’s affecting the sinus if it’s close to a nerve, things like that. And that’s what I was also talking about before when we create a health team. So yes, some people might have an abscess, they could have had an abscess there for years and not known it.
But how is that affecting your overall health? That’s what we were talking about before with the toxic burden. That’s where the health team comes into play where we would have someone see a functional medicine like a functional medicine doctor like yourself, and then you run bloodwork. And you can see what else is going on in the body. What else is causing inflammation? Or are there any other diseases or disorders or imbalances that the patient might have? Most people a lot of times aren’t even aware that they have imbalances going on.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right? Yeah, some of my toughest patients where we’ve done everything like that, okay, there’s gotta be something I always look at, we gotta go look at your mouth now, right? Because that’s a major problem. How much? How often when we talk about cavitations?
I would imagine that’s very similar to cavitation, only defined as when you pull the extract of the wisdom teeth, and there are pockets of fluid. Or could that even be cavitation? Where there has been a root canal? And there are signs on a 3d x-ray, that that’s the problem. Is that what cavitation is?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, it’s basically what happens is when any tooth, it doesn’t have to be a wisdom tooth, but a tooth is removed, and essentially, dead tissue remains and builds up and becomes almost like a fluid and gel-filled pocket in the bone. And that the body kind of Ward’s off and just kind of tries to keep in in this in that area of the jaw. But yeah, it doesn’t have to be from necessarily a wisdom tooth.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Can it be from a root canal or not? A root canal tooth, yeah. root root canal tooth can have a pocket of fluid that would be defined as cavitation.
Dr. Seth Gilson: So cavitation is like once a tooth is already missing, there’s this radio radiopacity area in the jaw. So basically, it looks like there’s an infection where there are no other teeth around it or anything like that. I see I see.
Dr. Joel Rosen: But it would be very similar in terms of physiology, that where the root canal was done, that there wasn’t sterilization, and there was a lot of festering buildup of anaerobic microbes that it creates the same issues that cavitation would, or they looked at similarly are not really.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Not, they’re not looked at. Similarly. It’s, it’s different because a lot of times when you leave necrotic tissue in, in the jawbone, it’s not that’s why when we remove teeth or do any kind of surgeries, the entire area needs to be properly cleaned, not just the soft tissue, but also the bone around it that was warding off that infection is generally dead too.
So when you leave that behind, that’s where this kind of area of cavitation can be conformed, because there’s no fresh and healthy blood supply to the area. So the immune cells can’t help heal that part of the body. So it’s similar to root canals, but it’s a little bit different.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. I know I appreciate what I get now after talking to you, and I appreciate it. Having dexterity and being good with your hands and having a good skill set would matter as a dentist, right? Because you’re doing these precision-like maneuvers, I guess I mean, just like any profession, there are great, great stars, and there are not so great stars, right? I would imagine that that happens all the time.
Dr. Seth Gilson: I would imagine so. So I mean, obviously some people have better manual or hand-eye coordination and better dexterity than others.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So as far as just we won’t go too long, but as far as mercury amalgams are, would you recommend in every instance that someone has an amalgam? That’s mercury that they shouldn’t have in there?
Dr. Seth Gilson: What I’ll say is I would never have one in my mouth.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes. Why is it sort of a taboo subject?
Dr. Seth Gilson: I don’t know. I honestly don’t know why. Because there’s nothing It doesn’t improve your health in any way. You know that mercury is a known neurotoxin. And there’s again, like on some, there’s plenty of research showing how mercury vapor is released from these fillings when there’s any sort of X excess heat created. So when you’re having hot coffee, if you’re grinding and chewing your teeth commonly, I mean, you’re creating friction, which creates heat. And that is going to release mercury vapor. How much over how long? I mean, it varies for the individual, but breathing in these things is the worst way to become exposed to them.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, but why is it taboo, though? You didn’t answer that, like, I mean, yeah.
Dr. Seth Gilson: I mean, I guess it’s taboo because it’s been used for so long. Because these things that it’s been used for decades. And the FDA, to the FDA, just a year and a half ago, just now started coming out in the middle, the minute in the middle of a pandemic saying that certain people, certain individuals, pregnant women, people that want to get pregnant people, women that are breastfeeding, people with kidney disease, people with other chronic illnesses, people with neurocognitive, neurocognitive disorders should not have these types of feelings place.
Now, why is that? Why it’s so there’s some sort of there’s become some sort of recognition. And I think people in these organizations are inching closer to saying, Alright, we’re not going to use this anymore. Everything else is better. But I don’t know if there’s ever going to be like, Oh, these things caused all these problems. This is why we’re not going to use it anymore. But they’re just inching away from using them.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I get it. But you know, 88, if not more percent of Americans are metabolically unhealthy. And I think you could extend it to 88% or more, should not be having that exposure. And I agree with you, too. I think it’s a little bit of cognitive dissonance. If I was a dentist for 50 years, and I was very dogmatic and didn’t want to think about myself kind of making problems worse. I could either change my belief or, or change my behavior. Right. And I guess the belief is to somewhat justify and I think also to there’d be a lot of fallout in terms of admitting wrongdoing, right, with all the people that have had sons. Unfortunately, that happens. And thank you for being forthright with your approach and being diplomatic about attune. So I appreciate that. So as far as oral microbiome goes, Why is that important? And how can we maximize our oral microbiome? You know, or at least not maximize? But make it as healthy as possible?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, so the oral microbiome, and the gut microbiome has become one of the biggest research topics in the world, in the past decade or so. And, that one of the reasons why is that we discovered that about 50% of the DNA in our body is bacterial. So that impacts our health, like the health and the balance of the bacteria in our body impacts our health directly, and as well as indirectly.
So the microbiome is all the microorganisms and microorganisms that make up a particular area advice. So there’s the oral microbiome, you have a nasal microbiome, your lungs have their microbiome, your brain has a microbiome, and then the gut. So the guts, the mouth, all the way through to the other end. And there are different makeups as you as you go down.
And as far as how we can optimize it, everybody’s everybody has a unique microbiome like everybody has a unique fingerprint, but there is a lot of overlap. So again, there’s still a lot of research going into this, how we can optimize things. Some of the best things we can do are oral hygiene, practice great oral hygiene practices is so so so important, just because our diets are not optimal. Even if you’re eating a majority of plant-based foods. It’s the nutrition density in a lot of our foods these days isn’t what it once was. So proper nutrition, proper oral hygiene, proper going to the dentist, and when.
Dr. Joel Rosen: You say proper oral hygiene, so I didn’t grow up What do you mean flossing? brushing.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Flossing every day every night before you brush and brushing twice a day? A lot? No floor?
Dr. Joel Rosen: No fluoride, no fluoride toothpaste, right? Is there? Is there access to a lot of those? I mean, there are specific brands that you can get now that go out of your way that doesn’t have them that you like that you recommend?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yes, there’s so the one that I use myself is a brand called Roswell and that’s what we use in the office. And there’s another brand that’s all I’ve heard is also really good called Boca. And these two brands, they’re natural ingredients and they had their main active ingredient is something called Hydroxyapatite. And hydroxyapatite is a natural compound found in our body that makes our teeth and bones hard.
And this is actually through research that has been shown to remineralize and help with sensitivity, better than fluoride. And it’s safer. Because it’s not toxic at all. It’s a natural compound. Right? Right. So all oral microbiome, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. And do you recommend some kinds have activated charcoal or there are rinses with ozone? Things like that? Do you ever recommend those as well or not so much?
Dr. Seth Gilson: Mouthwash is one of the biggest problems when it comes to oral microbiomes. You want to never use alcohol-based mouthwash, anything that says it’s antimicrobial is just killing everything in your mouth, generally speaking. So the counter mouthwash and stuff I would never really recommend. I know Riceville has an all-natural mouthwash. I’m not sure about bokeh. But those things will all impact the oral microbiome.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, there’s also a lot of ozonated stuff, too. What’s your thought process on that?
Dr. Seth Gilson: So if you’re going to use something regarding ozone, you have to work with a practitioner that knows how to use ozone. Now, there are some things that you can get over the counter, like ozone gels and things like that. But I don’t it depends. It just depends on where you’re getting them from, and what source you’re getting them from.
So I would, I would always suggest getting it from your biological dentist if you’re going to use an ozone gel. And like, for example, we use ozone, water, and ozone gas in the office every single day. But you have to work with a trained practitioner that knows how to properly administer and use these things.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, yeah, I have a podcast that I interviewed someone on that gave me some insight. And I always like to talk to professionals to get their insight as well. So I can talk to you more and more. There are so many things that I want to get into maybe we’ll have a part two if you’re open to that, but I appreciate your time, Seth, as far as the question I always like to ask people on my show is knowing what you know now versus what the bright eyed and bushy tailed Seth may not have known back then what would you have told yourself that would have helped you with your health journey in terms of just being healthier, more proactive, dealing with life stress? Any type of health issues? What would you have told yourself now, then that you know now?
Dr. Seth Gilson: I think the one probably one of the most inter instrumental things that I’ve I’ve come to understand is that phrase know thyself. And I feel once we learn to go within and learn about ourselves, we can better understand and show up in the world around us.
And that is what led me that that the start of that journey is what kind of led me down this path to becoming and, constantly wanting to become the best version of myself.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. that’s a great answer. It’s kind of along the lines of what I said were you know, the cognitive dissonance when there’s when you don’t know yourself, and you’re acting out of alignment with what sort of resonates with you, that creates a lot of internal stress, right? So the more you’re authentic, and you you’re not hypocritical and you practice what you think.
Right? And there’s not any incongruency between that, then it’s happening. Have you felt like there’s a shift in your health? You haven’t you’re not as burnt out anymore. Like you were at the start of COVID and stuff like that.
Dr. Seth Gilson: For sure. 100 100% I mean, I come into the office every day, feeling more energized. And I leave feeling more satisfied because of it.
Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s great. So how do people find out more about what you do you have your own YouTube channel you practice in South Florida? Give us some insight on where to find you.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yes, so you can find me on Instagram it’s mindful that Dr. The YouTube channel is the art of mindful medicine. And I have a website called www dot mindful dot doctor and then the Office website is www our holistic dentist.com All right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I’ll make sure I put those in the notes as well. And I will say like out loud to keep myself accountable. I have some major dental issues that I have to go see Dr. Seth with and I would love to be showcasing my journey. I still have mercury amalgam comes in my mouth. And for some reason, I’ve been the doctor, not the patient.
So it’s time to switch that up and showcase my journey. So you’ll have to keep me accountable. Now that I’ve broadcasted that to the millions of millions of people that watch this, so super excited to talk to you. So thank you so much for all the information you provide any last words of wisdom that you want to share?
Dr. Seth Gilson: No, I just want to thank you, I’m grateful for the opportunity to come and talk and just share my experiences and what I’ve learned, and what I’m continuing to learn. And just to stay grateful for where we are, what we have, and the wonderful lives that we’re living.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. We, after our last podcast, we talked about maybe being able to help each other because your chocolate in my peanut butter, you know, can work well together in terms of looking at what else can someone do besides doing these safe removals and, and being able to get their oral microbiome in check. There may have already been lots of challenges that are impacting their, energy production, and their ability to detox, then they have these genetic susceptibilities that make these things worse, but from my point of view, the ones that aren’t responding what should be typically Okay, we got we shot probably should have started with the mouth and what’s going on.
But usually, it’s one of those things that doesn’t get addressed right away. And you’ll see the combination of our work together really improve the lives of a lot of people. So thank you so much, Seth, and I look forward to our next conversation.
Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, me too. Thanks, Joe. I appreciate it. Thanks.
The post Oral Microbiome Advice, One Biological Dentist’s Unbiased Review appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So here we are for another edition of the truth about your health with my distinguished and honorable guests, Morley, and Morley Robbins. And we are here to discuss this is actually part four, I believe, or part
Morley Robbins: Might be part 5.
Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. So I know Ari Witten said part 17 or part 16. But we’re on our way there. So I’m excited to have you in my office. It’s a pleasure. So So Morley, I took a lot of notes after our last interview, and we were talking about the recycling of iron. And it’s fascinating how the body needs only 25 milligrams of iron, of which 24 are what we already have in our body. Exactly. And when it doesn’t, you have a negative regulator, and a positive regulator, copper being the positive regulator, and iron being the negative regulator.
And we got into talking about how different environmental factors will make it difficult to negatively regulate energy production. And so can you get into that a little bit because you lost me a little bit, and I listened to it again. And I wanted a little bit more clarification because it wasn’t only vitamin D. There was also high fructose corn syrup that you did on your pot in your masterclass. So maybe we could talk about what happens when the body isn’t able to recycle iron effectively, and how, what the consequences of those are okay?
Morley Robbins: Sure. It’s a really, I think it’s a really foundational concept, understands and appreciates you want to kind of dig a little deeper. Because the whole notion of recycling is foreign to a lot of people like our body recycles. And it seems, as I got into the research, it seems that every recycling program requires copper. And so the cells have a stomach, called the lysosome.
And that’s where the recycling takes place. And one of our good friends who’s a radiologist advised is said that the lysosome runs on high-energy peroxides. If you’ve got high-energy peroxide, you may have copper nearby to help manage that and regulate that. And there are not a lot of articles that get into that. But one in particular, that’s very, very good at it, is by Kim and Gonzalez from 2021. It’s a very, it’s pretty high brow.
But it’s but I think even the average layman can follow it. Because it really gets into how sophisticated the lysosome is, and how copper-dependent it is as well. And why don’t we know this, right? But the nuance is that every second of every day, every second, we’re gonna make two and a half million red blood cells. Well, the numbers get outrageously big. When you start getting break it down to hemoglobin. And then he, we’re talking, we’re talking really big numbers every second, we’ve got to be able to make that. And where’s that? Where’s that taking place? It’s in the bone marrow. And the bone marrow is principally the pelvic region and the long bones. That’s where most of the bone marrow is.
And it’s basically fat. But I think the important thing for folks to understand is that when we do a blood test, to find out what’s going on, especially since 70% of the iron in the body is in hemoglobin. That’s it. I call it the bucket of iron. It’s a huge vessel of iron. That’s evil. Another 10% is supposed to be in the storage protein ferritin. And that is supposed to be inside the cells that are supposed to be in the blood. When it’s in the blood, it means it’s outside the cell. That’s not good. But I know we’re going to come back to that. But then there’s a third and so the ferritin is like a teacup. So we got a bucket, we got a teacup, and then we have what’s called Syrah Meyer. And that’s a thimble. So we have 70% 10% 1/10 of 1% of the iron in the serum, the serum.
And it’s a really important 1/10 of 1%. Because it’s telling us how efficient the recycling system is. And so there’s a huge amount of iron in the blood. When we do a blood test, only 1% of copper is in the blood. 46% is in the bone marrow. So if you really want to measure someone’s true copper status, you got to do a bone marrow biopsy. That’s fun. Yeah, you first Yeah. No, no one ever thinks about that, right? And if you really want to know what someone’s iron status really is, either do a needle biopsy of a liver or do a Tesla to MRI. Right? They’re very accurate.
But that’s the Tesla three, not the Tesla 4567, Tesla for some reason has the best affinity for measuring iron status, like, go faded, right? So that the issue is the recycling system is critical for turning over the iron. And where’s this? You know, so you’ve got, you’ve got the situation where iron is being stored in ferritin. But it’s got to be released, it’s got to get out. And it turns out that there are two different types of therapy, which have what’s called a heavy chain, and a light chain. It’s actually a spectrum. And the way I characterize it now is to think of the light chain as vanilla. Think of heavy chains as chocolate. Okay, okay.
Right? If I notice any chocolate noses, coppery chocolate, right, that’s much of vanilla. But, the thing is, the heavy chain means it has what’s called the Ferro oxidase enzyme function. And so heavy chain is like an ATM machine, you can put money in, you could take money out of my head, and what the fair for each and every chain does, you can put it in, you can take it out.
And there’s no exhaust, there’s no status, there’s no, but on the light chain side, though, the action is stimulated by hydrogen peroxide. And hydrogen peroxide will oxidize iron to get it into the storage protein. But there’s always a cost, it’s gonna give off exhaust, right? And so that’s not a good thing. And in order to get it out of the ferritin, your chi, uric acid. uric acid is observed, we’re gonna talk about it. But uric acid is like, mind-blowing metabolite, that’s getting a lot of notoriety now between Richard Johnson and David Perlmutter, and a number of other authors. But it’s like, it’s behind all the chronic disease because it’s getting too high.
But we need it. It’s a really essential part. It’s all about the bill shaker, the Goldilocks, not too high, not too low, just right. And so the ferritin needs to be broken down. And it needs to be broken down in the lysosome. And it needs to have these high-energy peroxides to do it. And if they can’t crank it, what happens is the iron gets dumped into the tissue. And there was a 10 amino acid cleavage of the ferritin protein. And it gets released gets secreted into the bloodstream. So it shows up in the bloodstream. And doctors have been trained to believe that what’s in the ferritin in the blood is representative of ferritin in the cell. I wouldn’t trust that marker. Right.
And it’s not just one author I’ve probably found seven authors who clearly say, ferret Veriton is not a good indicator of iron status. It’s just it’s too volatile as a marker. But the thing is, the important thing to understand is that there is a recycling program. And that it depends on energy and these peroxides to do that. And there are all sorts of chaperones that also transport proteins involved in that. None of which I don’t think it’s taught in any kind of doctorate school. They all teach a doctor school seems to be a dipstick. Right, too high, too low, whatever. But, it’s a much more nuanced process to understand what’s happening to iron in the body. And I think a lot of people
don’t realize the sophistication of their bodies. And they don’t realize that iron, it’s a critical nutrient. We know we can’t live without it, right? But iron is the foot soldier, and copper is the general. So let’s picture the Battle of the Bulge. Without patent. It’s a very different story when he’s not there. It would, would have been a very different ending to the war if you hadn’t been there. But the thing is, as I’m coming to understand it, day by day, week, by week, every facet of iron metabolism depends on copper.
I mean, it’s just the production of heme, the production of hemoglobin, the production of red blood cells, and the recycling of the ferritin protein. It’s like, oh, my gosh, it’s so copper-dependent. And this has been in the literature, going back to the 30s. ActuItrted with the 20s, but a lot of literature in the 30s and 40s. But as recently as the 20 teens, I mean, there are some really sophisticated articles out there from 2016 2018 2019 2021. That came to Gonzalez. And it’s like, it’s not, it’s not hidden. It’s just not been.
Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, just interject there. I’ve seen you be interviewed by different guests, and you spill out research that they’re not aware of. And I almost feel like in a paradoxical way, it’s not looked at as legit research, if it’s older research, right? But it shouldn’t be the opposite.
It should be thought of the older it is when we didn’t have all this technology or the incentives to publish certain things, certain ways that they were doing it with the limited technology, if anything, that research is much more sound and that much is like you always say is more endearing? And is you find, I guess, just as a side question, do you find when you present your research to people that interview you, they kind of show it off as Oh, that was done in the 20s or 30s?
Morley Robbins: They may not say it, but Right. Absolutely believe that. Yeah. And that’s it’s not that. They’re not bad people. It’s a societal meme, right? Well, it’s got to be three seconds old to be valid. Right, right. And if it’s are you kidding, it’s 100 years old, right? How can I possibly trust that? Right? Well, let’s talk about Newton. was Newton wrong, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. It goes, it goes to show like I mean, by the time the ivory towers hits the street, it’s already old news, right? And I think that you need that time for it to actually get implemented, versus the stuff that gets published today. You don’t have the Morley Robbins giving it to you in your face right away. Here it is. And you’re usually going to hear about that another 20 years from now.
Morley Robbins: Exactly. And I think what’s important for people to appreciate is there’s a level of simplicity, but there’s a level of sophistication to how our body works to be the recycling system for iron the formulators, reticular, endothelial system.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I like to know what yeah, why did they come up with.
Morley Robbins: That? Why did they come up with that, but basically means recycling? And it’s run by copper. It’s totally run by copper. And what’s important is the three principal organs that are involved in it are the liver, the spleen, and the bone marrow.
So that’s what’s happening in the liver, there’s a lot of storage of iron in the liver. That’s really it’s a good thing, but that’s what’s happened. The spleen is where the old red blood cells are being turned over, that they, they go there, they get broken down and the iron is gonna get released. It’s also gonna get released in the liver because there’s some breakdown in the liver as well.
But, Oregon, I guess, I call it an organ. I don’t know what else to call it. But then the substance in our body that has the strongest attraction for iron is the bone marrow. If I had a choice between the liver and spleen Boehner always got involved.
Dr. Joel Rosen: is that because that’s, that’s where the 100 concentration of copper is?
Morley Robbins: Concentration copper and it knows it’s going to be turned back into here. You hemoglobin in red blood cells.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? You know, what’s amazing to me is is that you find with people that are searching for the root cause protocol, and you see, well, you have to detox the liver, or you have to get rid of mold, or you have to get rid of Epstein Barr, or you have to do this cleanse or that cleanse. But no one’s talking about what you just mentioned, in terms of you what I love about it as you approach it from an energy standpoint.
And what is more important is it than your body making red blood cells to be able to deliver oxygen to be able to make ATP? And I think that’s where the buck start stops, like, okay, maybe you have an iron that’s trapped in your integral sites, and it’s feeding parasites, and at some point, you’re gonna have to address this. But if you’re going to have a Game of War, and you want to figure out which is the more superior card, if you will, it’s the necessity to be able to respire, it’s the necessity to be able to breathe at the cellular level.
Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. And there’s a very famous physiologist. He was actually a biologist, I think he was drawn to physiology at a professional University, in Wisconsin, back in the 20s. And 30s. He ended up it was so cool. His name was Conrad LVM. He was Dutch, originally from the Netherlands, I suppose. But he started out as a farm boy, outside of Wisconsin, outside of Madison, and he wanted to go to the university.
And he enrolled a got an undergrad in biology, that he got a master’s doctorate, and then became in charge of the biochemistry department, then he became the president of the university skies system. It’s a kind of rags-to-riches story, that’s fabulous. But he made this observation back in the 30s. About Us, and he was making an observation about copper, seeking to transform iron into hemoglobin.
And he was very specific about using that word, transform iron, and he will, and that’s what he does. And then I started thinking about building on that same idea. Copper, transforms oxygen, into the water, to release energy, it is the transformer that is taking these basic substrates’ basic elements and transforms them, so they become usable. They, reinforce the ability to produce and to be able to do whatever kind of work needs to be done. And that’s conference gift is it’s the transform, right? And it’s, that’s not that, that’s taken me 15.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Years to write.
Morley Robbins: Now I see it very differently. I knew it was important, but it’s like, there’s like this holy grail quest about it. Right? It’s fascinating.
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like Zen in the art of copper mastery. Right? understand more and more. You know, it’s so so going back to the recycling and the negative regulator. And we did talk about how vitamin D is shown to keep the negative regulator from operating effectively because he will. So maybe get into that more later, because I’m kind of curious where you mentioned, the only way to continue recycling is through iron egress. And I didn’t understand what that meant.
So when the body has the negative regulator, there’s no copper to positively regulate the recycling of red blood cells that have decided, well, I look at it as the dungeon door that you know, that comes down and the chains come down and claps the door down. That’s exactly right. And then that way, your body is now creating a whole bunch of exhaust, but it’s also I guess, fermenting glucose, not using oxygen, aerobic ly continue to make energy, but in order to continue the recycling the iron egress, so I didn’t understand that.
Maybe you could also talk about that and then the other environmental factors that make the door not go down and why that’s a problem given that the negative regulator needs to turn on given that you don’t have the copper to positive reregulate so yeah, maybe we can kind of go down that pathway now.
Morley Robbins: Okay. So bring the football season. I guess we’re in the playoffs.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Almost.
Morley Robbins: Coming up to it. And so forgive us. We’re going to use a football analogy. And I will listen to this is new as a nuance of football, but everyone knows what quarterback knows, the quarterback makes the plays quarterback gets the MVP trophy. A quarterback is a positive regulator on a football team very clearly. They’re the ones calling the plays, they’re the ones making the plays.
And I think it’s a very easy analogy. The negative regulator on a football team is called the middle linebacker. Nobody wants to be by the middle linebacker, because he shuts down the play, right? That’s their job. They’re shutting it down. So what we’re looking at here is, the body is designed to work if we’re clipping along and making two and a half million red blood cells a second, the body has this obsessive need to be constantly rebuilding turning iron into hemoglobin, which can then go into feed the, the amount of hemoglobin in one red blood cell. It’s, it’s like a billion. It’s like it’s ridiculous numbers, huge numbers.
So the thing is, the body is relying on copper to keep the system going. And when copper starts to get depleted, contrary to what the literature will tell you, Oh, the prevalence of copper deficiency is very rare. Now, I think it’s pretty endemic to the planet, but things with copper started to get low. This negative regulator in the system is called the hep side.
And it’s an acute microbial peptide, or what waste was really designed to do is to shut down the recycling program for iron to keep it away from the pathogens, keep the iron in the tissue that’s working with the macrophages, the PacMan, that gobble up the dying red blood cells. Keep that iron in the macrophages so I can’t get out into the bloodstream. Because the good bacteria are in our gut, the bad bacteria are in our blood. And as soon as iron gets to a level of excess, the pathogens have a feeding frenzy.
That’s well well documented. And the thing is, the body is designed to recycle. The body is designed to rely on the positive regulator, keeping the wheels spinning. But when it perceives that, it’s not able to do that, it’s going to invite the synthesis of the negative regulator, it’s coming out of the liver livers a command central for making have side hip side is keyed off by interleukin six, in particular, inflammation is what’s really going to trigger it most of all, and sugar will trigger it without any shooting must cause inflammation while it does.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Cut according to nature wants you fat. That’s the survival switch. But they failed to mention anything about the bioavailable copper and the positive regulation. Exactly right.
Morley Robbins: And so the thing is that the body has this mechanism of turning on the upside to shut down the arm recycling to keep it away from the pathogens. And that’s called our immune system. Right now. It’s a primal response to what’s perceived as a threat. Right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: And just to interject, it would be great because I again, told you this that I really enjoyed. I don’t enjoy hearing you say, you know when I kick the bucket, but I enjoyed when you say when I kick the bucket that if I had made the change of doctor looking at anemia, with not the knee-jerk reaction of let’s pump you with more iron, but it’s a chronic illness. I think what happens is hopefully not just what happens, but the whole mentality of Wait, is the body doing something intelligent here? Or is it something that we need to pharmaceutically override and shut down and support?
Morley Robbins: It took me two or three years of working with clients who had what they said was anemia. Though he was technically hemoglobin, he needed me only to refer to low hemoglobin. It doesn’t refer to low ferritin. It doesn’t refer to the low serum iron. It’s been bastardized over the years. But typically it’s referring to definition, by definition, do we have enough red blood cells in the blood and therefore hemoglobin to support that? That’s true anemia.
And what Joe was referring to here is this. The abject confusion about anemia of iron deficiency. There’s not enough iron in the body is showing low in the blood. But no one’s thinking about what’s iron stands in the tissue. So the blood is anemic, but it’s the tissue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like looking out in the ocean, there are no boats, there are no boats in the sea, we’ll take your blind. Oh, there’s a whole other ocean over here. There are a lot of boats over there.
Morley Robbins: True. And so getting people to realize that iron presents differently different tissue. That’s, that’s huge. But getting kidney practitioners to realize, wow, there’s a way I described it in one of my presentations. There’s a calculus to accomplish its role in regulating iron tablets. But what doctors have been taught to us is just a ruler. There’s a layer, but you don’t solve calculus with a ruler,
Dr. Joel Rosen: And the ruler is off, by the way. Yeah, like not only is it measuring the absolute at the absolute numbers are way up here, when you can be telling down here that if you’re going to use a ruler, at least use a real ruler accurately, exactly, you know.
Morley Robbins: And the thing is that we have signed the starts to flex its muscles because the liver perceives there’s inflammation.
Dr. Joel Rosen: it’s a cell danger, it’s a cell danger response exactly.
Morley Robbins: Right. And all of all the immune systems to ways we got to batten down the hatches, we’ve got to stop the iron egress. So that iron is not going to get into the bloodstream to feed the pathogen, right? So very simple response. And you make the comment about the body doing something intelligent? What it was gonna say a minute ago is it took me a long time to figure out why people have low hemoglobin. It’s actually pretty simple. The body knows there isn’t enough bioavailable copper, to activate the oxygen.
So why would I bring more oxygen into a system that I know can’t support it? So it’s going to regulate down the production of hemoglobin, so we’re not going to have as much oxygen so that if we have too much oxygen in the system, there’s no copper to either activated or deactivated where you’re going to have oxygen is just coming out. Right. And I think the body does have the intelligence to say, hey, stop, yeah, we don’t need all this.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Oil on the fire. Exactly. Well, that same thing happens with the thyroid Marli, I see that as well. So that the body is intelligent, we don’t need to continue fanning the fire. Right. So let’s slow down the thyroid signaling, the thyroid uptake, the thyroid conversion, let’s produce antibodies, let’s go out of our way to do whatever we can to slow this oxygen sensing and metabolic activation of oxygen that’s only going to get converted into hydroxyl radicals or it’s going to get to oxidize.
And I think that’s a problem. Very similar in the sense that, well, let’s just give you thyroid hormone, or let’s just pour more iron in there and not look at what’s actually going on.
Morley Robbins: Yeah, there’s there isn’t enough awareness that, again, the biggest bolus of iron in the body 70% is in hemoglobin. Another 10% is in muscles called myoglobin. So it’s 80% of the iron in the body is a waiter carrying oxygen. Right? Who’s the chef that slicing and dices the oxygen that’s covered? And no one’s thinking about that side of the equation? It’s all about supply. Well, are we able to work with it? And there’s a voice in one article. It was an article about hypoxia.
When we hear the word hypoxia, we suddenly go to the top of Mount Everest. Its altitude, and lack of oxygen. But that’s not what hypoxia is referring to. at a cellular level. It’s functional hypoxia. It’s not a lack of oxygen, it’s the inability to activate the oxygen. And if the oxygen can’t be activated, because copper is not present in the mitochondria, that is going to be turned into an oxidant. It’s going to be superoxide. It’s going to be hydrogen peroxide is going to be a hydroxyl radical, it might be peroxy nitrite.
Oh no. And it’s going to devolve into one of those. And that means it’s not available to become water because it’s already been transformed into one of these other and that’s an ending the design of our body is such that our maker and mother nature wants copper to both activate oxygen to make energy and deactivate the oxygens to clear the exhaust. I’m not sure I would have designed the system that way. But that’s the job of copper is to work both sides. It’s offense-defense, right? And it’s totally dependent on bioavailable copper to make that happen.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so so then we You did mention so this is where I’m a bit confused. So if Vitamin D has shown to not allow that negative regulator to slam the door shut, right, so now that it continues to want to do the reticular, endothelial recycling through the movement of iron yet it doesn’t have the key, or the concierge to move it out of the tissues. So what kind happened?
Morley Robbins: I mean there’s, it’s it isn’t just 5g, it’s ascorbic acid, right was another. I’m trying to think.
Dr. Joel Rosen: There was Kairos, ACE inhibitors and
Morley Robbins: Tyrosine kinase inhibitors. There’s a whole class of elements, and I want to use my little cheat sheet.
Dr. Joel Rosen: right? Well, that fructose, high corn syrup, fructose, that tells it to shut the door? Or where’s that fitting in?
Morley Robbins: like high fructose corn syrup going to do? Yeah, it’s going to tell it to shut the door. And it is going to begin to produce more uric acid. And then uric acid is going to off-override the head side. And it’s going to start to pull the audio out of the ferret. I mean, it’s absolutely mind-blowing. Right. Right. I mean, it’s just, it’s like, you start to get into some of the second and third-order effects.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Yeah. And on top of that, what, I think is fascinating is, when there is so much vitamin D. And vitamin A isn’t able to be absorbed or help the nuclear receptor, then that shuts down cellular respiration. Yep. Right. And then now we are glucose burners, and we’re not able to aerobic ly burn fat. And really what I picture Morley is a tailpipe that has massive amounts of smoke coming out of it. Yeah. That’s, it’s like a plane spinning under control, spiraling down, and eventually hitting the floor.
Yeah. So that’s, that’s all of that is kind of where we talked about the last time, right, right. But now where do you feel it needs to go obviously, uric acid is a big one. One thing I do is this is a completely left-field one. But I want to, I want you to help answer this because I think a lot of really good people have not necessarily been taught, all that needs to be taught about the subject.
So it has to do with, copper tubes and a copper one. And you and I had a conversation the other day, a lot of people want the copper one so that it’s in its usable, ready-to-go form, and are being told that copper two isn’t able to be utilized. And it just a pile accumulates, and you have high extracellular copper, that’s basically inert, not able to work. But the amazing thing about Sarup plasm, is the fact that it has the ability to reduce copper to some people feel that it doesn’t do it very effectively, or it doesn’t do it at all, or it’s not worth it to get this sources of copper to maybe we can talk a little bit about that I don’t need to put you on the spot, I want to be able to talk about that.
Because I want to bridge the gap between I think you have a lot of like these sects that sort of divided from these religions. And at the end of the day, instead of having more, they’re so close with their principles and philosophies that you just need a couple of little bridging conversations to say you say you think the same thing I do. But I took a different slant on it. Now that I see your slant, which is in this case, the truth and chemistry and biology 101. But maybe we can talk about it because I personally don’t understand it as much as I like to but as soon as you told me, so we will plasm has the ability to do that it would make perfect sense.
Morley Robbins: Yeah. Just saw this because there, there are several, what are called reductase enzymes, and DC YTB. Step three, I’m sure there are others, they all have this natural ability to reduce right? And so that when we’re talking about chemically reduce, so suddenly x plus two is going to become plus one or something as plus three is going to become plus two.
Right? But the thing is plus one. Cooper’s copper is found inside the cell plus two coup pricks. Copper is found outside the cell. Well, there’s got to be a way to regulate that. And that’s one of the many jobs of pseudo plasmon there’s a fascinating article by a famous middle biologist. His name was Earl freedom. He was sort of the date of metal biology in the 60s 70s 80s, maybe even early 90s But he was four State University. He wrote a really important article in 1968.
In Scientific American, which would be designed for the public. You know, it’s not nature’s Scientific American. He’s talking about the biochemistry of copper. It’s an amazing article gets from 68. But he talks about three forms of copper. So we’ve got this copper two plus two, copper plus one. Copper neutral, copper zero. I never, I’ve never seen him know. And it’s another valence for copper. And what does that mean? It means it’s immediately accessible to the body to the tissue, there’s no resistance. But what the plus one plus two is there’s got to be a transaction to allow the copper to get in.
And copper zero, there is no transaction, right? And so the form of copper that we use in the recuperate product, it’s copper bis-glycinate. And the folks that LVM figured out a way to make copper, that copper neutral. That’s what runs copper. This question is whether it’s copper neutral. So it really doofuses this whole thing plus one plus two. Right. But I think what’s important is the challenge we face I think, where some of these reductase enzymes are found, is in our gut. And then the exposure to chemicals and different medications and what have you, I think it really compromised our reductase bacteria.
Right? That’s where I think that’s where the challenge is right to help restore this natural mechanism. And there’s no question that that felt the Ferro oxidase enzyme function is critical for the Ferro oxidase was referring to oxidizing, but this rule plasmin protein, as many and varied functionalities. And so the gut needs to have more bioavailable copper, right to do that.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And that, and I always look at it as demand and supply. So if you think about that, that would be the I guess that’s the supply, right? In terms of you having the healthy flora to be able to reduce the copper one, because it’s able to do that. So it’s supplying more, whereas the demand with the farming practices and the leaching of our minerals and the glyphosate and the not ripening of our foods, and just it’s not able to make the available copper and it’s in its ready to go state.
So your demand is that much higher? And I think that’s the argument is, is that in a lot of the crappier products or food sources, you’re getting too much of the copper to then our body has mainly been designed to have to reduce I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I would imagine the supply is, is lower, and the demand is higher.
Morley Robbins: Yeah. Right. And I think, you know, Charlie Parker, governance is so utterly broken was probably the most articulate about the proper copper, right? But he was really referring to it from the standpoint of in the agricultural setting, you can spray copper down on the soil, and the microbes know what to do to turn that into that copper one, right to get it into the plant.
Right. But in order, it’s going to have to get back to copper in order to get back into the body. I mean, it’s just, there’s a constant, right flip-flop that’s taking place. And so I think that there’s an undue emphasis placed on valence when in fact, what we need to be focusing on is, how do we support the body’s natural ability to make bioavailable copper to make the Well, that’s
Dr. Joel Rosen: The last thing and I think it’s important to mention that when you told me the other day that you had talked to Charlie, and he did mention to you that the Surulere plasm. He didn’t understand, I think the nuance of the bioavailable copper. And I mentioned to you that he was wrong about that, not to you know, this disparages anyone or no, he.
Morley Robbins: You know, his initial response was sort of a puzzle that has nothing to do with copper status. And I said, Well, I think it’s more complicated, or it’s more foundational, and over a two-year period, or after a two-year period, he came to both call me personally but also publicly say, right, he’s right about smooth, right. So he really, I get a lot of credit for taking the time and Energy to study it and be able to say, Hey, I was wrong. There is more to the story. And so I just think it’s important for people within the nutritional and medical arts community to understand that there is a subtlety to this, that is not being openly taught at the level that I think it needs to be. Right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: This is a good segue to what we talked about in terms of, what do we do about this? Right? I mean, and I really love the concept, we talked about the Pentium chip and how the RCEP is really, the overriding stop doing these things that deplete your bioavailable copper, start doing these things.
But then we talked about we have really great minds and practitioners that have really followed that to a tee. But yeah, because of the perfect storm of life and the environment. And I guess if you will post-traumatic stressors in their life and other nuances, that they’re not getting those next level of improvements.
Morley Robbins: Exactly. Yeah, they’re all They’re always going to be some roadblocks in the way, right? And to me, the biggest roadblock is more of an emotional nature, unwillingness to let go of fears or anxieties or whatever the emotional issues might be. But there are others. And we can get into that. But I think people need to realize that the body does respond to energy. But when there’s emotional unrest, it’s going to deplete the energy in the system, right? It’s gonna have a big hit.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think a lot of people miss that, too. Right. And we’ve talked about this to where I think it’s really important to when you’re a practitioner, and you work with a patient, so many of them are like this morally, like, okay, like, I’ve been here. I’ve been there. I’ve been here. I’ve been there. I don’t want to be there. Yes. Well, where do you want to go? Well, I don’t want to be there anymore. I don’t want to go there.
And it’s like, well, what about over here? Like, where do you want to go? So I think that is a really important part of the emotional component. Because if you don’t know what the destination looks like, how do you know if you’re getting closer to it?
Morley Robbins: Totally agree. It’s, it’s huge. And people keep playing these tapes from the past? Right? I don’t have a sense of what are they really trying to grasp. Right? What is the truth? What is, their passion? What are they striving for, they keep throwing the anchor back here, right, and it’s just they get stuck, they do definitely get stuck.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So So then, as far as the other things that we talked about, you talked a little bit about, and this is kind of all over the place. And I have noted here what I’m looking at. And I think these are good talks in terms of a toffee G, and what a toughie G is, and a toffee g of ferritin. That was a word that I hadn’t heard before combined together, and how copper is necessary for that.
So I’m interested to know and you give me research articles that I won’t need to get into that I want to, but what have you seen in your research of a toffee, G toffee g of ferritin, how copper plays a pivotal role in that sort of a shift and what we’re talking about, but I would love to get into that too because I feel like you mentioned and I tell people that one of the major activators of your immune system, and NADPH oxidase enzyme, and histamine is the fact that iron is going to oxidize. k
And when Iron oxidizes like that, that’s a major growth factor. mTOR is stimulated. And you’ve mentioned that many times. And I’m glad you have in terms of people need to realize we’re in a constant growth cycle. And they do mention that in the book, right 365 We have access to fruits, we have access to light 24/7 We’re eating all the time.
So it’s necessary and vital for those nonresponders to implement into their strategy, the ability to plow the fields, instead of always growing the seeds and recycling the soils and removing misfolded I think people are understanding that now they understand the term autophagy but they only use the an eat intermittent fast, or I need to restrict my proteins. But we’re back at the Pentium here in terms of copper and how this all regulates it. So maybe explain that I’d love to hear about that.
Morley Robbins: Well, the thing is a very simple rule. Any Condition that’s not working right and begins with the letter A these vitamin A autophagy officers not working right and a lot of people, right. So how do you make a compromise you got to have retinol, right? And so you get into temperature, you suddenly find out that, again, we’re back to these high-energy peroxides.
And they’ve got, they’ve got to have energy, and you’ve got to do what they do. It’s like, oh, my gosh, we’re back to bioavailable copper again. And it’s so subtle in its presence, but it’s the activity must take. And again, there’s constant recycling in our bodies. And the literature is very clear about what happens when retinol comes in on the scene, it begins to ignite. I think there’s an energy to it in and of itself.
But it’s enabling the transactions that need to take place to support the ongoing process of rebuilding the body. It’s, to me it’s, it’s fascinating that they gave a Nobel Prize for autophagy. I don’t remember them talking about it.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’ve seen some pretty big influencers that I’ve seen at metabolic summits, the older names we know, and I asked them about vitamin A and their deem that deer in the headlights. But it’s interesting, as we’re talking, it would make sense that if we have to recycle 2.5 million red blood cells per second, not to even get into the orders of magnitude of heme and hemoglobin.
But if we have to do that, and that’s called our reticular endothelial system, and that’s our recycling, it would make sense if that’s not happening, then our recycling of misfolded proteins isn’t happening, our entire recycling is not happening.
Morley Robbins: I was reading a fascinating article this morning about movement disorders, you know, Parkinson’s and other related disorders, right, and there’s a dozen or so tied to hematology and the inability to replace the red blood cells properly. It’s an early warning sign that there’s a problem. And, again, they don’t go into the level of detail about bioavailable copper that I want. But the fact of the matter is, they were able to connect hematology to movement disorders, which means that the blood is not being replaced properly, and the recycling system is not working properly. It’s creating exhaust in the system. And it’s playing out in the signaling for neurotransmitters and other nuances of movement in the body.
Dr. Joel Rosen: And you know, it’s interesting, because it shouldn’t be so head-scratching or confusing if even you’re a layperson and wondering why we’re talking about copper and why it’s all copper centric. I mean, think about the plug in the wire plug and the copper wire that makes it work. Think about I love this when you said you know iron is more structural, copper is more catalytic in the buildings, the copper keeps the current flowing, and the pipes moving, whereas the iron keeps the structure up, right? Just a segue I told you about a young lady who emailed me.
And she’s, you know, she’s in a, in more of a difficult, I guess, a European country where it’s difficult to get testing. And it’s even harder to get good providers that understand this. But it’s deflating Morley when you present this message of how important copper is. And then you give them advice. And then they tell you Well, I’m concerned and it’s not their fault. It’s what they’re being taught and told by their providers, this thing of copper toxicity, conference, copper toxicity. So I guess for our viewers, is there a 62nd? Elevator Pitch to explain? Hey, it’s not toxic? You just you’re being told the exact opposite?
Morley Robbins: I mean, what is there a case to do a real quick deal with the copper toxicity issue because it’s an important one? The copper, ratio of copper and iron is very, very important in understanding the body. So for every atom of copper, there are at least 50 Atoms of iron.
And get on appreciate that they don’t understand that, that the copper atom is completely outnumbered. In the same way that generals are outnumbered by foot soldiers. We’re back to the same concept of Oh, was there someone who has intelligence tell him the other guys that don’t know what to do? Well, to me, iron is it’s a dumbwaiter. If 80% of iron is carrying oxygen, it’s a dumbwaiter. It does what it’s told to do. And it’s been glorified into the stomach.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Those are the things in the buildings. Right. So it’s more it’s a dominator. Yeah. again, exactly.
Morley Robbins: But the thing is that what science is trying to do is turn iron into a sentient being. It is not such it is not thoughtful. I could go on for a couple of hours about what Ray Hopper does, but basically taking orders and falling when placed close to do, right?
But the thing is if you don’t appreciate that, if you don’t understand both the order of magnitude, there’s way more iron in the body than there is copper what they’re trying to say let’s pretend that copper is a Navy Seal, and I are digital warriors. And we know that I interact with oxygen, incomparable to they both will interact with oxygen.
But the design from Mother Nature is for copper to make the oxygen usable. And to clear the exhaust. I entered either carry it or create static creates a lot of exhaust. And so we’ve got this order of magnitude at least 50 to one more iron, and copper. And we have this, this copper finds its way into enzymes that work with the oxygen. Iron is not finding its way into enzymes to carry it. It literally just carries it and does its job.
And so the other side of it is the whole notion of copper toxicity was the brainchild of Carl Pfeiffer’s famous MD Ph.D. Back in the 60s, he wrote a very important book called mental elemental nutrients written I think it was like 68 or something like that. And he wrote articles about the different elements but he was really fascinated by copper.
And in a particularly poignant article, he talked about copper becoming unbound from some Rouleau plasmon under conditions of stress, which we’ve talked about, right? Well, that phrase, copper becoming unbound from smooth plasma became Unbound, copper became free copper became copper toxicity. And it was all the nuances of the original scientific finding that then like like a game of telephone, you know, you’re in a big circle. Yeah, the original message got changed, and by the time it got changed, it went from being copper unbound from its proteins rule plasm to its toxic, it’s like the copper is always bound.
If it’s not bound to surreal plasma, which is where I’ve seen as high as 90% of the copper in the blood is bound to circular plasmon, we have to keep one thing in mind. Only 1% of the copper is in the blood, right? 99% is in the tissue folks, right? And when it’s in the tissue it works with enzymes, when it’s inside the cell is bound to a ligand. Can you believe they don’t know what that ligand is?
They don’t know what the partner is to copper. Is it that they don’t know or they don’t want us to know I don’t know? But the point is, the vast majority of copper is in our tissue. Only 1% of the blood, but when it’s not bound to swallow plasmon, it’s bound to albumin bound to the amino acid histidine is bound to transport a protein called Trans country.
And one of my favorite cover researchers is at Hopkins from the MOSFET level. Lutsenko she’s brilliant, absolutely brilliant about copper. The article that she wrote back in 2018 was about the heart, mind body, and soul of copper. That was a really cool article. But the thing is, she studied the amount of free copper inside the cell. And it was one to the negative 10 to the negative 21. It’s called Zepto. Bore, there are 21 zeros. And that one, it’s virtually impossible to have the copper unknown right in the tissue. Right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s just it’s so so where was Pfeiffer getting his information from?
Morley Robbins: Well, yeah, again, he was looking at it in the blood. He made this cup this comment about copper and do this game of telephone. His original finding got turned into free copper unbelt free copper means it’s toxic.
And there’s a lot of research that has been done over the years to try to blame copper for the lipid peroxidation is taking place. Copper is causing LDL to be a problem child and again, it’s just So let’s talk about the iron. That’s 50 times high, right? But they don’t.
Dr. Joel Rosen: But it’s always amazing to me when those broken telephones actually are the enduring things, how that happens. But just as a side note, I was watching the interview with Dr. Mercola. And I wanted to talk numbers. So let’s talk about the iron sinkhole that we have in our bodies, right? Because that’s what we have, right? And you and you, conservatively said, times your age by 365 times that by 365. And that in a very, very conservative way, will be the amount of iron that you’ve accumulated over your lifetime. It’s not me that’s not Morley Robbins.
Morley Robbins: Biologist. Right. That’s Robert. Correct. That’s right. It’s right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I think it goes without saying whenever you, I mean, you have opinions, but their opinions are based on research, right? So, so talk the numbers, because I think it’s really important for people to realize because I see this with my patient base, where when you start to turn on the engine by making more bioavailable copper, it’s kind of like a rebuilt engine, in the sense that you have a lot of black smoke to clear out once you get the engine working, right.
And that’s where you have to be very slow and methodical because it’s not necessarily more or better, you don’t want to what I call metabolically overwhelm the system and go into shutdown mode. But with that being said, there is an impetus as a major tool, besides the things that we recommend to stop doing.
And the things that we start to we recommend to start doing in terms of the numbers, maybe get into that more than like how much iron typically is released in a donation? How much iron should we have? How much do we typically have, so that we can get an idea that this is a verb, this is something that’s going to be ongoing? Right? So maybe we can talk a little bit about that?
Morley Robbins: Yeah, so I just celebrated my 70th birthday back in November. So you take your age times 365? Well, this is the Medal of Honor. It was 25,000.
Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s conservative, right? I mean, obviously, maybe like 20 years ago, probably would have been a lot higher with the dietary enriched foods you would have been eating and so forth.
Morley Robbins: So a band is supposed to have about 5000 milligrams, five times more hunger right now, technically, I may not have that much. But theoretically, right. But the thing is, people are talking about this formula. People are not aware of the fact that every day we’re on the planet is accumulating one milligram, at least one milligram. That’s before we got dietarily.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Exactly right.
Dr. Joel Rosen & Morley Robbins: And we’re not even taking supplements, enriched foods, except right.
Morley Robbins: So the thing is, it couldn’t be higher. Right, right. So where, where is that iron going? It’s going in the liver and the spleen. It’s just, especially when there is adequate copper in the diet. If copper is low iron is going to accumulate in the body. Where is it going to heal it? First and foremost, it’s always going to go to the spleen. It has this gravitation always to the liver.
I’m not exactly sure why. But its people need to know. And that was first established in 1928. Again, work at the University of Wisconsin, where Dr. LVM was part of the team that came up with that. And then another Dr. McHargue, a year later confirmed their findings. So it sounds like oh, it was a bunch of wackos. It was several notable people, notable people and it’s been replicated regularly right for me. But the thing is, people don’t know this, right?
They don’t know that low copper in the diet is going to accumulate iron in the tissue. That’s important thing to note that as we age, there is this cumulate accumulative effect of copper or seeming iron billion or tissue and what’s going to happen? There’s going to be more oxidative stress as the iron builds. And the more rusting more of us why rusting the mitochondria are going to start to choke on all this iron, right? Because they don’t know what to do with it.
All right, and the reason why we talk about doing the blood donations is to begin to offload that iron. So when you do a standard blood donation you’re going to use you’re going to fill a bag that can hold 500 milliliters of fluid and based on that saturation, right? This one is sensory. Without numbers, about half of that is going to be honored. So you’re going to get rid of 250 milligrams of iron. Right? I’m gonna do a lot of donuts.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right to get a wonder in your math formula, though, if you are, I mean, all things created equal, which we have negative regulators and lack of positive regulators. But could you do 24 times 365? Given that you need 24 units of iron to recycle the 24-hour supply of red blood cells? Is that a fair equation or not necessarily?
Morley Robbins: I’ve thought about it. Yeah, I don’t know what to do with that right equation.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? So what we’re basically saying is 24 milligrams are needed. 25 milligrams of iron is needed to do the heavy lifting of recycling all the 2.5 million red blood pulp cells per second times 60 times 60 times 24, you only need 24 milligrams of iron to do that. Right? It is amazing in and of itself.
Morley Robbins: It says The thing is, what, according to the great clinicians and scientists back in the 20s, you know, what did they know? Right? But, back in the day, they were measuring the amount of iron that the mom donates to the baby. And the amount of copper, then the amount of damage to the baby. So certainly, Joe and I are healthy, we have livers that have about seven milligrams of copper. And when we were born, it was 70 milligrams of copper in our liver, a carrot, or a cup of coffee cover, right?
And that’s a huge bolus of copper right? Now for healthy, we have about 100 milligrams of copper. So let’s talk about the iron side, right? Iron, the donation of iron from balm is supposed to be about 450 milligrams of iron for right. So 450 versus 70. Right? So it’s about six times more iron.
But now, I’m, you know, that 25,000 milligrams, and 100 milligrams of copper if I’m lucky that the ratio is way out of whack. Right, right. And so don’t want to stick in about this. Right now. I was thinking about this constant process of adding iron to the food system through the supplements that we’re taking, and all the other variations. And where’s the first copper supplementation? Where’s the copper fortification? Yeah, it’s just it doesn’t even exist, except in some of the supplements that you can find. And no one’s aware of the order of magnitude of distortion that we started out with 450 Iron 770 comp.
Dr. Joel Rosen: 6161. Do you think that’s the maybe that’s ideal ratio that if you speculate that’s what we’re endowed with, that’s what optimally would be throughout our life cycle?
Morley Robbins: When we’ve done 3600 milligrams.
Morley Robbins & Dr. Joel Rosen: of iron? Right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Just for collapse, right?
Morley Robbins: Yeah, there definitely would be eating. What Joel was getting to is something that I’ve been thinking about in the last probably a year, year and a half, given the power and the importance of other recycling systems. It’s really important here is that I think the numbers as you’re, as you’re coming to two pieces together the way I have, I think the numbers for iron could be dramatically less.
And when you get into the research that was done the in the 30s, especially the amount of copper that was in our blood was much higher, or we consider 100 is healthy now that we’re seeing people with 151, at much, much, much higher. That wasn’t because of inflammation. It was just higher levels of blood. Right. So it’s just the numbers have gotten distorted over the.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Serum iron. Exactly. ceremony, which is 1%. Right, right. Yeah. Right. Interesting. So I’m all over the place here with my questions, because it’s kind of coming to me No. So so. So one of the things on the Start list is magnesium, and I had a q&a with my group that I worked with today. And they asked me a question about transdermal magnesium. I said, Well, you know, I actually know Morley, I’m going to talk to him and ask him, so between ingested malleolar glycinate or topical magnesium is one of the uses of water or magnesium water or salts, right flakes?
Is there the question I had from one of my patients was, is it feasible to get through food It’s and through just the topical without having to do the ingestion of the mallet and the glycinate? Have you seen that historically or anecdotally?
Morley Robbins: Intriguing. I don’t know that I’ve seen it a lot. I think when I encourage people to do this get as many varied forms of magnesium as they can, right? So we’ve got magnesium water, and the use of bicarbonate would probably be the use. If you really, if you’re not willing to make it for yourself.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Those are the hydrogen waters. Is that what that is? Have you seen those?
Morley Robbins: Well, I have seen them. I think there were.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Magnesium. And there are no, I don’t know that that was one of the active ingredients.
Morley Robbins: I don’t know about that particular don’t but go to a Polish supermarket. They sell Polish water. Poland has the highest concentration of magnesium on the planet. God knows why. But, the magnesium impulse water is amazing. So magnesium water, transdermal, if you can go to the ocean, or if you can get some Epsom salts or transdermal it’s a great way and the absorption through the skin is very powerful.
The third form is dietary, again, anything that’s green, is supposed to have magnesium, right, does it? I don’t know, right? There are some really interesting things that are taking place. So I was crushed when I was talking to a supermarket executive years ago, talking about how the broccoli looked so green. And he said, Do you know how they make it green like that?
And I braced myself for impact. They use nitric oxide, they force the color I don’t know, I didn’t have the presence of mine was kind of in freefall. But it’s like, oh my gosh, they’re engineering the color, not to magnesium, but to other viewers. So it just raises all sorts of questions how much magnesium is, the product for you? Right?
Because if it’s not in the soil, it’s not going to get on the planet, right? So again, wherever possible, find organic food raised by responsible farmers, right? And that was never down to supplements. And I think we live in a world now where there’s so much stress, both acute and chronic. I don’t think we can afford not to supplement right with the mineral that’s the chill pill.
Dr. Joel Rosen: right? However, there you do put in your protocol. And I want a little more clarification from you that some people will need to have the cocktail loaded first. So maybe describe that if people have been taking magnesium, and they he hit an upper lip limit bowel intolerance is frequent, but more importantly, just doesn’t seem to be the chill pill. Right? What’s going on? What’s going on there?
Morley Robbins: What happens is the adrenal glands, which are sitting on top of our kidneys, so adrenal means add renal on top of that kidney. The adrenal glands are very sensitive to minerals, especially sodium and magnesium. And it’s the ratio so do we make these a tic tac toe? how healthy they are.
And you start pumping in a lot of magnesium to someone who has been under a lot of stress, or what you’re going to do is if sodium was here, and you start increasing magnesium, you’re going to tank their adrenals. And their energy is going to plumb it. Right. Right. And so what do we encourage people to do, who did stress cadets, or live that lifestyle?
They want to take the adrenal cocktail, which has sodium potassium the vitamin C, to support and nourish the adrenal glands, so that when you then begin to introduce magnesium, you’re not going to overwhelm them, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there’s an art to it. I mean, I love the idea of following the stops. Yeah, it makes sense. Like just stop these things. And some of them were hard for me because I was a practitioner that recommended some of these things. Sure. I recommended molybdenum a lot of the time for sulfites that have that Su ox enzyme that isn’t working effectively and molybdenum is the cofactor.
So you can help too, again, I know where you’re going with this if, if bioavailable copper is working effectively, everything’s energetically based. That’s what I love about the concept of the RCP because you’re not down 10 streams down the road, worrying about stopping molybdenum because it was such a good tool in my toolkit to clear out the sulfites.
Now, I’m not creating as much blockage of that enzyme that typically anything that’s inflammatory is going to inhibit Its enzymes. Right, so now I don’t have to worry about speeding it up because I’m speeding it up naturally by removing the thing that’s slowing it down. Exactly. Right. So a lot of the pins will get knocked down as you said with these other responders. These are the people that do fantastic. And you see them all the time. Yeah. And you hear about them all the time. Right?
Right. But then there are the nonresponders where there are just the stress cadets like you’ve said, and they have to nuance it, where don’t just follow it, where you take all these things in phase one, and magnesium is in phase one, and you’re not doing well, you got to go methodically through these and be able to understand why and what and I guess, what’s the art of what you’re seeing in that?
Morley Robbins: And, no, I think it’s an important point. To me, the most important variable in this process with the RCP is doing the individual believes in their body’s natural ability to heal itself. If they have dealt? And a lot of people have been chronically ill for years, right? So they do have doubts, right? They’ve been given a lot of pain, a lot of discomforts, a lot of disorientation.
And they have conditioned themselves that my body is broken, right? There’s a level of fear there. And they met too many practitioners,, my course record with a client was 99, 9999 doctors, right? And when she started the RCEP, everything fell into place. That was a one-a-lifetime shot.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Was there a big fear? The opponent was an
Morley Robbins: Issue, right? She’d been told she was anemic. Right? So. So once you get the right nutrients, and the body knows what to do. Right. But the thing is, very often when I’m working with people, and they’re doing the protocol, fallen facilities, and they plateau. There are only two questions I ask them. Because what we’ve learned about the RCEP, is it does work. What does the RCEP do? It isn’t just making energy, it’s mobilizing iron, right? It will guarantee, you start introducing vital copper to the body, the body will respond accordingly and it will release iron. And so the two questions I asked are, have you donated blood? And have you dumped yours?
Dr. Joel Rosen: fears? Right, let’s go dump your blood and fears at the same time. Exactly.
Morley Robbins: Yeah. And so it’s not to, in any way, dismiss the fact that there are nonresponders, there are people who have genetic morphisms all these other things that we have to be sensitive to. But for the most part, people seem to be responding. And once they’ve cleared that iron overload and they’ve dealt with emotional issues, the body begins to respond accordingly. Right, I can begin to make the adaptations. right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I guess one of the things we talked about is a good college friend that you have that follows it to the tee, and we talked about how when the iron gets stuck in your integral sites, then you have your four challenges of getting iron out and histamine emotions and parasites. Right. But not just parasites, I would imagine that iron is food for for for all pathogens, right?
For the parasites the high is better, right? And they’re generational, right but with that being said, one of the clinical tools I was mentioning to you is I’ve done many times where I’ll do organic acid tests, which is a urine test that’s looking at systemic microbes, right and it’s being cleared through the kidneys.
So when we talk about mucosal lining, we’re not just talking about a stool test that would be looking at the lower coal and we’re looking at mucous membranes in the sinuses in the bronchial in the respiratory in the Gemma the urinal in the kidney and female reproductive and the.
Morley Robbins: liver. There’s not a science tissue in the liver. Right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So, so one of the things that I would say, and I suggest that to you as a clinical Pearl, this is just, I think, just showing off a little bit, but yeah, I think one of the things about that is what we’ve suggested is doing the nebulizers, Yes, and you could nebulize with disinfectants, there’s a really gentle HCL blend, or even a glutathione blend, or anything that even saline I would imagine would be anti-microbial, and that can really attack some of the nonresponders that aren’t getting. You’re not evicting the unwanted poachers from your body. completely by doing Gi programs.
Morley Robbins: Right? I’ve talked to so many clients, and I’m sure you’ve experienced it as well. And I’ll bring up the term parasite. I had, I had a test, right? And I said You know what, that was a stool test. Right? Who’s doing a systemic? Right? That’s the challenge is getting people to realize that the parasites community.
Dr. Joel Rosen: It comes down to the same argument again, with looking in the ocean. Right. And, you know, one of the studies that nailed it for me was, I can’t, I don’t have the photographic memory that you do. But it was a study on autistic children. And they did hair samples, and the ones that had more heavy metals in their hair, were they from the autistic cohort?
Or were they from the nonautistic, they were from the nonautistic. And the reason that is is that they’re getting the heavy metals expressed. So if you take that mentality of, well, I did a hair sample and there were no metals in there, then just because it’s not coming out doesn’t mean it’s not in there. Absolutely. Right. And I think that’s a major mistake. A lot of people, unfortunately, make.
Morley Robbins: Yeah, people don’t know how to properly interpret the hair test. Right? If it’s slow, they think it’s safe, right? That’s not always the case. Right? Especially with the heavy bottles, right? But the important thing is for people to realize that the minerals can be tested.
You can use the hair test, you can use a blood test. I’ve never done minerals in urine, but I know some practitioners do that extensively. But we’re looking at a completely different way to interpret it. Because it’s its minerals coming out, well, are they coming out the right way? And that’s where that’s the nuance is understanding. Under what conditions is it coming out?
Dr. Joel Rose: Yeah, I think there’s there’s an evolution of the practitioner to in terms of they test what they know. Right, right. Like, looking back 10 years ago, I did a lot of food sensitivity testing and micronutrient testing. And I would just reduce, at sickly say, Okay, you’re sensitive to this food, let’s remove it, you have these micronutrient deficiencies, let’s improve it.
However, once you start to, let’s just say put the Pentium chip in the computer and generate energy, then you’re not making massive amounts of histamine that’s taking a flame thrower to the GI tract that’s causing the effect of food sensitivities. So you’re getting to quote unquote, the root cause? Yeah, you’re right, you’re allowing.
Morley Robbins: The body naturally energizes itself, and can bring itself back into balance.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So what’s next morally? What’s next I know, I’m privileged, because potentially, I’ll be seeing a lot more of you in the area. Yeah, I know, you went on this, what did you call it? We called it not a sort of stripped-down sabbatical. So about a strategic sabbatical. strategics.
Morley Robbins: Okay.
Dr. Joel Rosen: And I’m getting more emails now than I had in the past because I think you’re back on the research of articles. But are there any directions that you want to go? Or what’s left still on the to-do list? No, it’s
Morley Robbins: It’s a great question. I think the big macro question is, what can we do to D iron the body faster? And what can we do to recover, and recuperate the body? And I think it’s so important for people to realize that there are mechanisms, but there’s no operating manual. There’s no, you know, there’s no book that we can go through it says, Well, this is how you do it. Right. We’re making this up as we go along. And federalism, obviously, in the Florida area where me, we’ve probably met with seminary practitioners since we’ve been here system.
This is a hotbed of switched-on, folks, many of most of whom almost all of them are aware of, or becoming aware of this guy is probably one of the most proficient in terms of his not just his understanding, but his application of his understanding. I’m very grateful for you but the thing is, more and more people are more and more practitioners are coming to realize that this is a piece of the puzzle that they’ve not known about. Right. And it just presents a foundational component. I think that the real dream is saying what’s next. It’s how do we do and how do we recover?
But Joe referred to the Pentium chip. We would love to see the RCEP become this Pentium chip and practitioners practice, right that it becomes just a natural part of By working with the clients with the patients, that they understand what to avoid them saying what to do, and then begin to address the problems that are beyond the RCP get to that nonresponding component, right? So that they can begin to clear the foundation of the problem so that the body can naturally take care of itself. Right. Right, and begin to move into the more challenging issues.
Dr. Joel Rosen: And I would say you’ll probably get started with more of the alternative practitioners first. But I think once you get into the best one would be the OB G’s and fertility doctors, especially with the research that you’re sending me, can you believe how much retinol and copper is going on in the placenta?
And how genes are orchestrated to be able to infuse that because it’s such a metabolically necessary active tissue? I mean, that’s us, our model for if that’s what that demands, then every single cell organ tissue, and system in the body demands that as well. And changing and pushing over the sacred cows of those highly guarded professions of vitamin A is toxic copper toxicity. It can Oh, it’s amazing that with that advice, there aren’t more challenges than there are.
Morley Robbins: No Well, one of our dear friends is Martha Carlin. She’s she calls herself a citizen scientist, right? And she’s been through the program. She’s a graduate of the ICPC Institute. And she came across some amazing research, especially today, but this one, that she found that I don’t think I sent it to you yet. It implies that copper is what can create a double helix, just by its very presence was like, wait a minute, does that mean the copper needs to be there to make DNA, it was implying that the copper was almost instrumental in creating the energy that allows the DNA to twirl?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, that’s how you describe the rotary as well.
Morley Robbins: Right? Exactly. Yeah. So it’s just, there’s so much that we don’t know.
Dr. Joel Rosen: cardiologists, right? At different key genes that we were talking about with that.
Morley Robbins: Absolutely. The defects from a copper-deficient heart, right? So it’s just, there’s so much that we’re piecing together. But at the end of the day, it’s wonderful to know all this, the real subtle actions and reactions of copper, but at the end of the day, we need to figure out how we get it back into someone’s body, right, and make sure that it’s bioavailable, right, that it can begin to run the engine that it’s designed, naturally, to run our mind.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Also, to follow up on that, so you get the practitioners that graduated from the RCP. And now, and they’re not only as you mentioned, they’re the practitioners like me, but they’re also the one that knows, like you and Martha that had a loved one that they want to be able to help and support. But at the same time, how do they make a uniform if I go to Istanbul, or if I go to Moscow, or if I go to Bangkok? Not that I would ever go to McDonald’s, but I would go to the McDonald’s and they would have the fries and they would be the same no matter what country I’m in.
How do we get that for anyone that is, is RCEP aware that they can add their flair to how they practice and what their philosophy is, and what they excel in, that it’s going to be completely no two snowflakes are the same? Right. But yet, they have a standardized, objective, consistent message that they have as foundational tenants that the RCP has created for them to be able to employ in whether they decide to consult one on one or not. But they have that toolkit to be able to just turn key it pardon me to do how they want to do it.
Morley Robbins: No, I think that’s a critical step how do we get this so that it can just really be this modular? It’s I’m not sure what I don’t know if I have an analogy, but it’s like your view flow. It’s like what we can download programs. Right. And this process is this protocol would download in the practice, and it would completely change there.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, it does start with nowadays. I guess I did a lot of expensive testing, which I won’t do anymore, because all I need To start, quite frankly, we’re uncomfortable as if I have the full Monty, right, which is all of the how is the cell? How are the cells? respiring? And how is the oxidative? Are they oxygenating? Are they oxidizing? Right? That’s the term.
And then from there, depending on my specific, unique practice, I could do a DNA test. And I was gonna mention that earlier when all of that negative regulation takes place, and your body isn’t able to make energy through recycling that ATP, or recycling that iron to make the red blood cells. That’s where I see these genes get turned on, so that they’re not able to recycle effectively, or they’re not able to convert beta carotene into vitamin A effectively.
Because why I used the analogy this afternoon with my clients. Imagine me having a factory, and we produce a certain widget that’s very specialized, that is in demand that a lot of countries want and we export it to, but no one’s ordering them anymore. So all of a sudden, I’m going to shut that wing of the factory down and and keep what’s keeping the bread and butter and the lights on in the factory and not invest man dollars. how does that translate in our body? Is it genomically signal the turning on of jeans that were meant to recycle effectively, that are no longer recycling?
Absolutely. I mean, you helped me understand that morally. That was like, why am I seeing all these things? But then it’s because the body is so intelligent, like we said it stop asking, How can I overthrow the body and do what I want it to do? And instead of understanding what the body wants me to do.
Morley Robbins: Exactly, and it’s really, it revolves around. We live on a planet that has a lot of oxygen in the air. And we use that oxygen to make energy. But if the oxygen is not being used properly, if the oxygen is creating too much exhaust, that’s when everything begins to respond to that.
And it’s all of the hormones, the neurotransmitters, and the neuro peptides are all oxygen sensors, what’s going on with oxygen? And that? I don’t know if there’s enough awareness about that, that if the oxygen is not being burned properly, being managed properly, being regulated properly, it’s going to create all manner of dysfunction.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think the Denon Harmon theory of free radicals, I think that it was very important to blow off exhaust so that you can temporarily shift the day jobs to the defense mode exam, but then get out of that exam. And the problem is we’re never getting out of that.
Morley Robbins: Yeah. All right. Yeah. The sympathetic nervous system is going to have a different response to oxidative stress than the parasympathetic, just completely different. Right. And most people are stuck in sympathy. They’re just in constant fight-or-flight mode.
And that has a, you can’t metabolize your environment when you’re in sympathetic overdrive. That’s a basic neurological fact. And I think that needs to be understood. What is it doing? Not just energy production, but exhaust generation?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I don’t remember who I heard say it. But there was a concern. I don’t know if you agree with this. There was a concern back in the day that taking too many antioxidants doesn’t allow it, there are studies I’m sure that you’ve seen. Too many antioxidants were life-shortening verses. But I don’t know if it’s safe to say that now because we have so much more free radicals that are being made, or we have so much less bioavailable copper and so much more iron, that so much more exhaust is coming that you’re putting a chair off the Titanic when you’re doing an antioxidant approach.
Morley Robbins: And so much of the focus in that research was around nutrient antioxidants. They didn’t get the enzyme, right, endogenous dyes, are just naturally occurring antioxidants, right? And people don’t. People don’t realize that those studies were gamed, and I don’t think they were truly representative of the whole spectrum game study. Yeah, no, no, but they weren’t representative of the full spectrum of capacity, right, that we have in our body.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So So just in parting, one of the things I proposed morally and we can kind of maybe put it out there and put him on the spot so that I have it on camera. The name of the lights that I have in the back is called the truth about your health.
And it’s weird to have you sitting here because it’s surreal. I don’t know why I came up with it, but it just was one of those things where the truth about health resonated with me. And I think by elucidating, the importance of turning over 2.5 billion red blood cells, million red blood cells per second. And the importance of cellular respiration is really in line with the truth about your health. And what comes first? It’s foundational.
The post New Research: Why Iron deficiency Anemia is a Fallacy and needs to be Abolished? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen:
All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get your health back quickly. And Part Four really with a mentor, a friend, a colleague, and someone that I re proud to say, I know Morley Robbins. He’s the Creator if you don’t know by now, of the root cause protocol and magnesium advocacy group. And Morley is just always digging down deeper into the rabbit holes.
And I got a text from him the other day telling me that we’re not only overdue for a chat, but he wants to tell me all about her side and how it’s causing utter chaos in the recycling system of the cells. And it’s too good to turn down. So here we are today, Morley. Thanks for joining us today. I appreciate your time.
Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Yeah. No pleasure to be here. And I think, the triad of what creates metabolic confusion would be iron. uric acid, and, and upside, I can’t think of three factors that have more impact on messing up our Mother Nature-driven physiology, which just seems to be disappearing by the minute. But again, we’ve talked at length about the copper-iron dynamic.
And just before we went live here, we were chatting a little bit about uric acid, which we can come back to. I think that uric acid is a stealth metabolite that’s playing in the background of all chronic diseases 100% of it. And there are all sorts of confusion about it being an antioxidant, or prooxidant. Is it? Is it in? Is it a result of our diet as a result of our lifestyle? We can have some really interesting discussions about that. But the thing about the upside is, again, it’s billed as the iron hormone. I’m not, I’m not convinced that. Well, I think what’s important to realize is that it’s a negative regulator, as opposed to a positive regulator.
A negative regulator would well let’s flip it around, the positive regulator would be like your mother in the home, regulating the functions of activity, making sure that kids are getting their homework done. You know, all the daily chores are getting done, people are getting fed, what have you. That’s positive regulation. Negative regulation would be relying on the police to control the chaos in the home.
That’s a negative regulator. And that’s pretty much the way it works in our tissue is that copper is the positive regulator of iron. That’s very well established. Good going back to 1928 with heart steenbok, Waddell, and LVM, you know, all the way to 2021, with Kim and Gonzales saying, Yeah, if copper is missing iron is going to get out of control, especially in the liver. And what appears to be the case is that when copper is deficient, the body has a backup plan. That’s called this negative regulator upside.
And what causes so many of problems for people is when they get a blood test, it can be misinterpreted, the blood that the iron levels in the blood can look low. And the practitioner interprets that as being well which means you have low iron, and in the tissue, below iron in the blood and ine tissue are completely different media.
And, and that’s the reoneering work of Bruce Ames back in 2004, who was able to prove that there’s 10 times more iron in the tissue that is in the blood. But if it looks low in the blood, a lot of practitioners will make a knee-jerk decision to encourage supplementation or even encouraged infusions, which are, I think, I think they’re baison to the body. We can talk more about that. But the very presence of iron supplementation triggers the upside. And what hip site does is it shuts down the iron recycling program. And its target is the thorough report and pathway.
The job wasn’t being an iron doorway, Ferro important. And what it does is it causes an internalization of that pathway and its degradation. So the cell, especially the macrophage, loses the natural ability to allow for iron egress, so that recycling of the iron can continue. Because what’s playing in the background of everyone’s body is the need to turn over two and a half million red blood cells every second. That’s a big deal. Two and a half million, we’ve been talking now for about 15 minutes and time 60, right, times two and a half million. So we’ve been working pretty hard to replace our blood ovover4 hours. It’s a ridiculous number, several billion red blood cells.
But what’s fascinating about that, is it only takes 25 milligrams of iron to support the replacement of 24 hours of red blood cells. So absolutely amazed, 25 milligrams is nothing. And even more amazing is that 24 of those 25 milligrams of iron come from the recycling system. That’s dependent upon the iron circulation, the iron recycling, that’s dependent upon the Federal Court doorway is open. And to keep it open, you need to have a Ferro oxidase enzyme function that’s provided by Cirilo plasmons.
But in this case, it would be a fest named after Festus in the mythology of the forge, the iron Forge, but the point is, when that ferroxidase is not present, it upside and comes in, and bauts down the pathway. And the way I’ve characterized your works with guys, that doesn’t necessarily work with women, but guys who, who know football, know what the linebackers job is, shut down the play.
No, no one did it better than Dick buck in the Chicago Bears. Well, that’s a negative regular, he’s shutting down the play. As opposed to the positive Edgar would be a quarterback. And no better quarterback than Tom Brady. Whether you like him or not, he’s considered the best quarterback of all time. But here’s the positive regulator. See, so basically, you’ve got the body as a positive regulator, and a negative regulator. According to the research, of Rao, or EO and ready from, I think it was 1996. ItThey assertedhat copper deficiency created the creation of upside. It’s a, it’s a response to copper status in the body.
And so a lot of confusion about it. But what makes it even worse, is that there are stimulants and suppressors in our diet that will influence hep Seitens activity. A great suppressor is vitamin D. So again, as if there wasn’t enough confusion about vitamin D, now we find out that it suppresses the level of hip sight. Well, does that sound like a good idea? If the body thinks it needs hip Sidon, and you’re suppressing it? Wow, that’s quite a development. And so, depending upon the food component, you know, sugar and fructose have a completely different effect on the hip side.
And so it’s just we are in this tennis match between what’s stimulating it, what’s suppressing it. And, what I decided in my webinar, took the stance that women that were falling, are falling into the trap of good cholesterol, the bad cholesterol. And what stops the rise of cholesterol is copper. Are we stimulating capsid and suppressing it? Why don’t we just avoid its need, and just focus on copper? And I think it just becomes another example of the genius of the body to use this. under appreciated mineral, it’s the Achilles heel of our physiology and allows it to regulate the result. cleaned up by him.
And then we don’t have to worry about the website. And it’s re’s being billed now, by the hematologist as an iron hormone, regulating iron. And I’m just like, that’s a, hat’s a real stretch. It just doesn’t buy it as a classification, because of the primal role that bioavailable copper plays in regulating iron in our bodies.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So lots of notes here, lots of notes here, because I’m glad and excited to unpack everything that you said there. And I mean, I’m thinking about it, even from my standpoint, okay, there are some confusions that I have. But then if I’m thinking about it from the standpoint of a person that doesn’t know all the x, y’s, and Z’s if we can break that down to them a little bit more succinctly.
So obviously, we’ve talked about the challenge that at the end of the day, if you’re exhausted and you’re tired, and you’re burnt out, you have some assumed guilty until proven otherwise, which would be guilty, problems with the way your body hot potatoes, the regulation of iron, and how it binds to oxygen, and how it makes energy. And I always say, if you’re not using oxygen for you, you’re using it against you. And instead of getting an income, you’re getting an expense, right?
We’ve talked about that in the past. And you’ve also expressed that 95% or more of your, of your hemoglobin or your irons is recycled. Whereas one milligram ideally, or up to 5% of your iron stores are from your food intake, and the body is demanded to recycle that iron. And there are positive and negative regulators to that, morally, just as an aside, one of the ways that I initially found you was by doing a lot of genomic test interpretations.
And I’ll agree that what we’re talking about today takes precedence over genetics. However, I do find that if there are weakened abilities in certain areas, these people are more susceptible to these challenges. I do see a lot of polymorphisms in the TMP RSS 5656, which it plays a critical role in the upside. And so maybe back us up a bit one more time, if you will, just more so for me, and the listeners get a benefit because I’m not clear on it.
Where hep, Sidon is the linebacker, and it is the negative regulator. So if there’s not enough iron, or sorry, not enough copper, to help drive that recycling ability of all these enzymes that help export and move iron out of tissues, then it will shut down the play. But if it can’t shut down the play what happens or maybe kind of go from there?
Morley Robbins: Right? So who’s the battery pack on TMP? So six or whatever, you know.
Dr. Joel Rosen: right? What is it, Marta? It says here, Marta paste, two, is that a Matri? Paste or two?
Morley Robbins: Yeah, Metro pays too right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s getting a little more sophisticated than I know. Sorry.
Morley Robbins: It was copper-dependent. Right. Okay. So again, all of these polymorphisms, I would argue, are reflections of copper deficiency. And if we go back to our first discussion, before we started this dialogue, I was sharing with you that there’s iron building up in the nucleus in the nucleolus. That’s supposed to be regulated by another copper-dependent enzyme called ferrets and heavy chain requires Darrell oxidase. Again, we’re operating with a complete understanding of how copper regulates iron.
And so I hear you loud and clear about the polymorphism. But I would argue that the real origin of the problem I wondering if, if that mechanism isn’t being triggered, because there isn’t adequate copper to open up the federal port doorway. That would be to me there’s like a hierarchy and as you’re talking about income and expense, if the expense starts going up inside the cell, well, then you’re going to trip that. Now, trip up We’re both struggling with the word, the PMP, our SS mechanism. I think that gets triggered by oxidative stress. Right? And so I’m a bit.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I am sorry to interrupt I am a big believer of when I do look at this genomics I’m more concerned about their subjective life, their stress, their exposures, all of the demands of life. However, I find it fascinating that there are certain, let’s call it checkpoints, or checks and balances, where you see more of these polymorphisms to compensate for that problem over here.
What I’m, what I’m extrapolating is the fact that this person is going to be harder hit in this area along the recycling chain, if you will, or they’re gonna need more. So, I mean, it’s still RCEP driven. But I get a little more specific as to Hey, this is where the weak links in the chain are breaking sort of speak. But yeah.
Morley Robbins: And again, if in fact, relevant radio is right about the upside and being triggered by copper deficiency? Well, that means it’s being triggered by oxidative stress. Right. And so then, I would be wondering, what’s happening with uric acid in these bodies, is it building and at some level, it may not be classified as Hyperuricemia? But maybe it’s going up just enough to trigger another threshold of reaction that’s causing hip Sidon to fire off.
And, again, hip Sidon is, to me, it’s a failsafe mechanism. It’s not a, let’s keep the body in a natural regulation. It’s, we have a, we have a problem. We’ve got building expenses, there’s exhaust, and we got to shut this thing down. And it’s a very powerful mechanism.
And so you’ve I think that confusion is from the forces in our diet that can flip upside down in one way or the other. And that, and then that webinar I did a couple of weeks ago, there’s a very specific slide, right, where it’s very clearly indicating who’s increasing upside, whose decreasing or silencing upside. And I think, I think it’s important for people to know that there are components of our diet that can be very powerfully influential in the activity level of upside, that may be involved in these polymorphisms as well.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Okay. So just the end just to so that I’m completely clear on it. If capsid is working effectively, then it’s needed because wcan’tto recycle the iron our recycle and make him and, and make the metabolic energy production that we need what happens as a consequence, is iron gets stuck in tissues, continued ox hydroxyl radicals, like, what’s going on there, when it’s not being when it’s not shutting down, effectively, you’re
Morley Robbins: Going to you’re going to lose energy. As iron builds in the tissue, especially in the mitochondria, you’re going to have a massive loss of energy. When that takes place, then you’ve now you’ve affected the whole process of recycling calcium and recycling the iron and recycling a nseveraltabolites, it’s gonna affect protein metabolism, because nitrogen is not going to be recycled properly, because of the change in urea recycling, but then we’ve got the added impact of iron interacting with the oxygen, oxidative stress is going to go up, well, then you’ve got a greater chance for lipid peroxidation.
And then a greater chance for DNA defects and other breakdowns in the cell. And then you stand the chance of either apoptosis or ferroptosis. Which is this arc, clean, desperate this still it’s the death of the cell because it was taking place inside the tissue or the cellular structure. So the thing is, as soon as you’ve got this dysregulation, of iron, it begins to have a compound effect with its interaction with not just the oxygen, but the effect of the oxidant on the DNA, the lipids, and the proteins. Right, right. Right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So so as far as an I’m just thinking of how to put this all together. So you mentionet the metabolic confusion and talking about the hip side and the iron and the uric acid. And now we sort of brought in vitamin D in that component too. I guess where do you want to go from here? Morally? What’s the natural next thing to talk about?
Morley Robbins: Well, we just add, I’m looking into, you know, can we easily measure hip, Sidon, and uric acid? As components? I know we can. Is it? Is it cost prohibitive? I don’t know, I’m gonna be having some discussions with the lab about that. But I think it’s what is important is to raise people’s awareness about this dynamic, that it’s contributing to the confusion about iron. That may be, again, when Iron starts to get locked up in the tissue. That’s anemia of chronic inflammation.
That is not an AMI of iron deficiency. Yeah, it’s low in the blood, I get that. But there’s no easy way to measure iron in the tissue, other than a needle biopsy, or Tesla two MRIs. Both of these are doable, but they’re not convenient. They’re not. And they’re not exactly cheap, either. But the thing is, I think there needs to be greater awareness about the recycling program, the fact that it can be affected by hip Sidon, the fact that hip side is influenced by copper status, and that this dynamic of slowing down the recycling system causes what’s called chronic inflammation.
What’s the biggest stimulant for chronic inflammation, uric acid, if you want to, if you want to introduce inflammation into the tissue, expose it to uric acid, and it’s an absolute lock. And what’s uric acid tied to you know, all forms of metabolic syndrome, all heart disease, diabetes, neurodegeneration, cancer is now being classified as an extension of uric acid.
So I think it’s important for people to realize that inflammation is not our friend. And it’s leading to dysregulation of iron that is showing up as low iron in the blood, and is leading to incorrect direct recommendations to either supplement or infuse iron, which I’m just vehemently opposed to. It doesn’t make sense. So I think in light of that, it’s good to raise awareness. Maybe we just make a pivot and go down that bunny trail of vitamin D having that impact on the upside. Maybe we should revisit this vitamin D thiin.
And now we’ve got added impetus to at least question the narrative about vitamin D. I was reading an interesting article. Earlier this week, there was talking about the recognized antagonism between vitamin A and vitamin D. And it was relating to I’m gonna get it was related to CD 36, I believe, and another CD, and I’m blanking on the number, I apologize for that. But the point it was raising is that there’s a natural antagonism between those two metabolites. So that’s been my position all along, is that I’m not opposed to vitamin D. I know it’s important. It’s relative to everything else.
And what I’m vehemently opposed to, is this idea that everyone’s vitamin D deficient, because people don’t know how vitamin D is made. And people don’t seem to understand the difference between storage D and activity. So I came up with an analogy recently. Storage D is a parked car. It’s a storage metabolite. It’s not supposed to be in our blood. It was supposed to be in the liver for heaven’s sake. And so what is active D? Well, that’s a car on the autobahn. And what do you do when you’re on the autobahn? Did you get to have a driver? That’s VDR. And you got to have a navigator. And that’s our XR. And what’s important for people to know is it. There are all sorts of accolades being assigned to vitamin D. But it’s not being assigned to the parking park cars. It’s being assigned to the car horses that are on the autobahn. They’re active.
They’ve got VDR. They’ve got arcs are, well, how do you get VDR? You better have extra magnesium. And how do you get arcs are you better have retinol. And people don’t realize that it’s a triad that stimulates our immune system. It is not storage D, the parked car, it’s the act of D on the autobahn. And what people are failing to recognize is that active D is static and does very little variation of levels of activity in our body. Storage D fluctuates with the season.
We’re entering the winter season where there’s not as much light except for you smart people down in Florida. But when there’s less light, what happens storage D goes down. Why? Because the body says we don’t want to block that light. During the summer. There’s more sunlight, lots more sunlight. And what happens is storage D goes up. Why?
Because it’s blocking the sunlight. Storage D, the parked car is sunglasses. And people can’t seem to understand the role that storage D has, which is very different than the role of active D. And what’s happened? My theory is that they’ve transposed the accolades that should be assigned to active D which has never been measured by practitioners. They’ve transposed it to storage D and the storage D is blocking the uptake of vitamin A. And, and we can have a very rousing conversation about why Retinol is important.
And what I do, as you will knowbyof our conversations, I, I put everything into an energy time, energy, a paradigm is this metabolite increasing energy in our body. Guess what the role of Vitamin D is relative to energy production. There isn’t one, there is no function, the Vitamin D plays to increase energy by vitamin A completely different vitamin A. According to Hambling 2016.
There is something there’s a mechanism there’s a four-part mechanism that resides between complex three and complex for the mitochondria. And it’s called the signal. And the signal ism is where electrons move from complex very to complex and the electrons ride the carbon tail of retinol to get from three to four. And if Retinol is not present, what happens? It’s called the Warburg effect.
And what is the Warburg effect? It’s where the body stops using oxygen to metabolize fuel, and goes anaerobic and ferments fuel. Fermentation, as you well know, is producing two units of energy. When in fact, when you oxidize sugars, you’re going to get 34 ATP, and the oxidized fats, you’re going to get 140 were designed to burn fat. That’y the preferred fuel. And if Retinol is not in our diet, and it’s not in our mitochondria, we’re not going to move the electrons as efficiently.
When did they first identify retinol deficiency as the cause of cancer? Montrose T burrows 1925 And he had four articles in 1926. And other scientists have made that assertion what’s the cutting-edge treatment for cancer today? Iron chelation therapy coupled with retinol therapy. Interesting. Let’s get rid of that Warburg effect. What else does vitamin A do? It’y critical for the microbiome. For the proper balance of good guys and bad guys.
People don’t realize that retinol has a completely suppressive effect on E. coli And so So my point is, we could go on for an hour talking about all the things that retinol does. But I think it’s important for people to realize that increased focus and intake of vitamin D suppresses the uptake of vitamin A. And we live in a
kind of this mono-focus world in that I can only think about one thing at a time. So people worry about their health, and they think they need more vitamin D. They’re not thinking about the dynamic interplay between the metabolites, they’re not thinking about the reason why the vitamin D may be low, which is debatable, because the range, the reference range of 30 to 100, is the creation of one person, Michael Holick, up at Boston University.
But the point is, in toke them, storage D, the parked car, you got to have magnesium, working with an enzyme found in the liver. And if magnesium isn’t present at optimal levels, enzymes aren’t going to function properly. Well, what would cause magnesium to not be present enough in the liver, is the buildup of iron, it’s a known fact that iron will cause magnesium Ross and the liver. Well, what causes iron to build up in the liver? Well, it’s back to heart steam back with LLVM 1920.
Deny an animal copper, and iron will rise in its liver, and it will also rise in its spleen. They just zeroed in on the liver, it turns out that the spleen is probably a bigger storage depot for iron than even the liver is. But it’s all of this is a far cry from what people think, Oh, I’ve got to get vitamin D to build up my immune system. And what does the literature say? It suppresses the immune system, it doesn’t stimulate it.
And what does vitamin A do? It Downregulates the immune system, and suppressing the immune system is not a good thing. And I’m afraid what we’re going to find downstream, we’re beginning to see evidence of it now. But I think it’s gonna get worse. Over the next couple of years. I think we’re going to witness as a result of the overriding focus on vitamin D. We are going to the impact that has on retinol in the body, I think we’re gonna witness an alarming rise in cancer around the planet, and we’re beginning to see evidence of it. I think it’s gonna get a lot worse over the next two to three years.
And again, the part that everyone should question is, when conventional doctors and alternative doctors are both recommending the same thing. People should stop and say, Wait a minute, that doesn’t make sense to me. And they didn’t do that. And so there’s a lot, of research out there. That clerelates vitamin D status to some health outcomes. Well, you know, as well, as I knew that, that correlation is not causation.
Do flies cause garbage? No, do firemen cause fires? No. But they certainly seem to be there, when there’s garbage and fire. And it’s just the confusion about how these variables show up at the same time, but they’re not causal. And I just, think that my whole stance on vitamin D goes back to 2010 when I met a very important figure, Dr. Kumerow Fedco, a famous lipid biologist at the University of Illinois, downstate Illinois, Champaign Urbana.
He was 98 years old when I met him. Just a luminary and we’re having lunch in his home. He’s telling me about this famous speech that he gave at a conference international conference in the 80s. Just as vitamin D was becoming popular, and he told people based on a decade of research with pigs, he told people, Ladies Gentlemen, you do not supplement with vitamin D says it’s not advised.
And you can imagine the pushback that took place. And I asked him, I said, Dr. Kimbrough, what happened as a result of that Speech. Again, you got a picture of this guy as he was bigger than I am. He’s like six, two, very, very vital. the twinkle in his eye. He leans forward, he says, well, Morley, I’m the only one left standing. All the others are dead. So he was a geek and he lived to be 102 and died near his second birthday, right after his second birthday. But the thing is, this is a very disruptive message in an era where people are freaked out about this condition that everyone’s worrying about.
And I haven’t backed down one iota. I think that vitamin D is D stands for deception. The D stands for disinformation, the D stands for dysfunction inside the body, and the D stands for For dysregulation of retinol metabolism. And it’s just it’s not a popular stance, people find it almost offensive. But I’ve read a few articles. And there’s compelling evidence that there’s way more to the story than what Dr. Holick is trying to convince the world. And I wasn’t at all convinced by what emerged with COVID.
And I think the dynamic with COVID. And vitamin D, is what it did, to hip sight. And somehow that mechanism of shutting down hip Sidon, I think prevented the iron release that was meant to take place. And again, it starts to get into some pretty esoteric physiology, that I think it’s beyond both our pay grades. But I think that’s the mechanism that makes the most sense to me that the other side of it that I should point out. I think I did share this webinar, people need to know that there’s a day identical structure between COVID SPIKE protein and hip side.
That’s a real nerve, a lot of people. And if that’s the case, well, then it would make sense that vitamin D would shut that down. But what you need to understand is that the hip side is a byproduct of copper deficiency, well, there’s a whole nother way to solve that problem. And to drown yourself in vitamin D, which is going to affect retinol, which is going to affect the bioavailability of your copper.
So it’s just a completely different paradigm of, of logic, the different philosophy of how the body is run. And I think people need they just need to decide, do they believe that or not? And if they do, then adopt that philosophy, if they don’t move on? And do what both the conventional, and the alternatives are telling you to do, which should make you very nervous.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, there’s a lot there. Morally, I think I, you know, when you get information overload, if you go to like, I don’t do this, but if you went to the Cheesecake Factory, there’s, you know, 25 different pages, and there are 20 items on each page. I’m the type of person who as soon as I see one thing that I know that I want, I’ll get it, and I don’t read through all the other stuff.
And I think I did that with vitamin A and vitamin D, as soon as I understood the idea and concept that storage D blocks absorption of a or too much D blocks absorption of a that doesn’t allow the act of D to get into the cell. I didn’t need any more information. I was ready to order what I wanted to order and I didn’t need to go through all the different pages if you will. Does that make
Morley Robbins: Sense? Well, it doesn’t make sense. And I think the problem that people have is they don’t know how important and powerful Retinol is in our immune system. They’ve been conditioned that vitamin D runs the immune system, and it doesn’t. And it’s it is an interplay between the two. And there’s a reason why our ancestors use cod liver oil relied on cod liver oil to stay healthy.
And there’s a significant variation in the amount of retinol in cod liver oil to vitamin D, in some cases is 10 to one, the jigsaw brand, the Alaskan brand of Carnival is 20 to one it’s 20 times more retinol than in vitamin D and that product is like and there’s a reason why those Alaskan cod need that extra retinol. And it’s just people are not. They they have an incomplete understanding of the dynamic and they’re following one line of thought, and they’re not using their critical thinking skills to say, is there more to the story?
And it takes time. And it is it takes energy to work through this. And as you say, decide, is this? Does this make sense to me? If it does then move on. And I think people are overly swayed by the groundswell of opinion. Well, when was the last time the majority made sense?
I mean, really. And so I think it’s George Bernard Shaw, who said, All products, all progress in society is a function of people being unreasonable. And I’m unreasonable about this topic. And I think you are as well. And I appreciate your efforts to try to enlighten your clients and your followers because our lives are at stake, and our health and well-being are at stake. And I think it’s a tragedy, that we’re still arguing something doctor Kumerow tried to put to rest back in the 1980s. And here we are 40 years later, just as confused. And how long did it take us to solve the cholesterol? Did confusion take 65 years? So maybe we have another 25 years of this insanity?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, I, I still think about the in your carrier fatigue book about, maybe you can expand upon that where you had the, and again, I’ll tell my patients, just like you said earlier, I don’t have vitamin D is essential for the body, when we’re not talking about it in a storage form and making sure that your storage levels are super high.
That’s we’re not talking about that. Act, if you want to get the active form of vitamin D into your cells, you need to decrease your storage form so that you increase your vitamin A to be able to get your act of D. So we both want your d to be working more effectively. You’re just yelling at the deaf person louder, and I’m just putting, you know, a hearing aid on him kind of thing.
That’s the that’s the difference. Right? What is the four-year follow-up study? Maybe you could tell us about that. Because that doesn’t seem to get the recognition that the initial because it all sounds like it’s a flaw in the studies. design that is pointing to the fact Okay, vitamin D is good. Therefore, the causation of having storage D high must necessarily follow where it’s a corollary in terms.
But what was the study that you were mentioning about how they never reported the four-year follow-up and found that I believe that it’s not so much that it low vitamin D storage for unhealthy and healthy people? It’s just that the unhealthy people have high video use active D versus the unhealthy cohorts. And it wasn’y reported. So everything hung on the initial study without the follow-up, something like that. Does that ring a bell for you?
Morley Robbins: It’s not as sharp as I want it to be. But absolutely. EMIC. And the thing is, there is a narrative. We know there’s a narrative in society now. And we’re all subject and prey to that narrative. And, I think what we’re trying to do is, is help people gather more information about what else is in play, what are other factors? What are other data points that they need to be aware of, like the study that you’re referring to?
Because there are I’ve come across countless examples where information that should have been earth-shattering, like the work of Warburg and Krebs in 1927, when they discovered that copper enzymes respond to anemia. Well, that tells you that copper regulates iron.
And that’s a major study that maybe three people know about. And so it’s to me there, there’s been a narrative throughout the decades, to bias people to a certain way of thinking about focusing on pathogens, focus on the particle, don’t focus on the field, don’t focus on the physiology or the energetics of the body. Everything’s about, well, we’ve got this bug and we got to kill the bug, that telling you that when you kill that bug, you’re going to kill the mitochondrial bugs that look just like the bugs are trying to kill.
And so people are I think people are more sensitive to it today, three years after, you know 2020, and so It’s a different world now. But I think there’s still a subset of society that has been lost in the narrative. And I don’t, I don’t know what it’s going to take to get people to do the gut check and say, I gotta rethink this, I’ve got to go down a different path. I’ve got a challenge. I mean, as Mark Twain said, if you find yourself on the side of the majority, it’s time to switch sides. And so it’s like, people, people like to be in numbers.
I like to be in the crowd. It’s more comfortable. But that doesn’t mean it’s right. And I think I think this is this cataclysmic clinical issue around vitamin D. I think we’re gonna look back on it in 10 years, and what? Oh, my gosh, I mean, I think you and I will be relieved. But I think the masses are going to be stunned by what they didn’t understand. Again, I think there’s there’s enough evidence to satisfy us that, thamistakes are beingng made. But it’s just tragic that people can’t seem to process the information in a timely enough fashion to make make a different decision. Right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, and shifting gears a little bit here where someone’s listening to this and they might be getting some good pieces of information and other pieces might be a little bit above their heads. What you’ve done is you’ve created y usable handbook that I saw you have a new update for thay gives people okay, well, what do I do the same people that find strength in numbers and want shortcuts and just do this and the magic wand and you know, everything’s, you know, waived and you come home from the ball and you don’t turn into a pumpkin, you know, all that type of thing.
But let’s maybe talk about that, because I think it’s an important point in terms of maybe what’s new on there, what you have things that you should be stopping, and things that you should be starting all in the guise of getting your bioavailable copper working effectively for you so that you are moving your, your iron, you’re recycling your iron, you’re making ATP, you’re not oxidative Lee, creating inflammation and breaking down DNA and proteins and so forth. So maybe what’s new on that Morley or for the person that’s never heard of that? That’s what’s old, that’s effective? And what do you what is? What’s it trying to do? I guess that’s the question.
Morley Robbins: Yeah, the protocol, the root cause protocol is just trying to simplify the process of getting well and is based on stops and starts. And getting people to realize that these very popular nutritional recommendations, ascorbic acid, vitamin D, zinc, iron, calcium, and synthetic B vitamins, are not your friends. And so we’ve taken a stance, get those out of your routine, get rid of the processed food, you got to move beyond that, and get to real seasonal, locally grown wherever possible organic food.
It’s not easy. It was not cheap. It isn’t. It takes a real commitment to go down that path. But the focus on the starts is to begin to build the nutrients in the body to develop bioavailable copper.
And I think the biggest change in the, in this latest edition of the handbook is to identify copper supplements, what you know what happens to be the one that I’ve put together called recuperate, but others are mentioned, but we wanted to make sure people knew that there are viable sources, because we were silent about that in earlier editions.
And in large part, the whole stance around COPPA changed. Post 2020 I think that copper has been under assault ever since that mechanism started. And I thinpeople must realizeze that if they’re still struggling with symptoms, here in 2022, you’re copper deficient and you need ty bulk up.
You need to be doing the protocol. You need the other nutrients that are critically important for making sure the copper gets loaded into its key metabolic protein called through low plasmon, but there are scores of comprehends items that need to be loaded.
And the loading process requires retinoic acid from retinototo activate the enzymes to come Move the copper, into those enzymes. And if you don’t have retinol in your diet, and you don’t have retinol in your physiology, it will not those key regulatory enzymes are not going to work. And those enzymes are critical for creating energy-clearing exhausts catalyzing other enzymes and combating enemies.
All this focus on pathogens over the decades for the last century has been having pushed copper aside because that’s Mother Nature’s anti-pathogenic. It’s been used throughout history. You can go back to the Smith Papyrus 2500 BC. And then we’re talking about using copper to heal people. Well, they do. It’s medicinal purposes. But this is all been lost in the modern era since the First World War, so it’s just a different world.
And we live in an iron-centric world where the emphasis is on getting more iron. And in a world where people have been trained to think of copper as being toxic. I can’t tell you the number of practitioners I’ve talked to over the last five to seven years, who are terrified of using copper, because they think it’s going to create all sorts of oxidative stress the same thing
Dr. Joel Rosen: with vitamin A as well, right? I mean, vitamin A is toxic, copper is toxic, Vitamin D is not iron is
Morley Robbins: Not. Right. Right. And that, that, that axis of insanity is why people are so sick. Right? One of the last
Dr. Joel Rosen: Things, I mean, I’d love to talk to you again. But as far as just getting to that point here, one of the things that I think that the RCP in the training taught very well, and put a lot of emphasis on is okay, well, I’m doing the stops, I’m doing the starts, why am I not necessarily feeling any better? And it’s not a magic wand? What’s your life like? Like? What are your stressors? Like?
What’s your demand for energy? And how are you respiring at the cellular level? Are you stuck in first gear, are you able to get up a first gear, maybe just talk a little bit about how you’ve incorporated that into your teachings as well because I think that’s a point that’s lost on a lot of people as well.
Morley Robbins: When I’m when I’m chatting with a client, who’s been very faithful to the protocol, trying to do all the stops and starts, as you say, and they feel like they’ve plateaued or they’ry moving sideways, or if something doesn’t feel right. There are four roadblocks that we talk about. The first is, you know, what we know about the protocol is that it works, especially to mobilize iron.
Soon as you start to introduce either copper or the nutrients that make copper bioavailable, you are going to activate that iron recycling program. And, what’s important for people to realize is that when they start to do that, that means they’ve got to discharge than iron, through blood donations, very important to get that excess iron that has been held in storage, because of hep Sidon and get it out of the body because there’s nothing beneficial from excess stored iron.
So iron donations are very, very important. The second factor is to look at their diet and say, there are yoy sensitive to your foods or your environment, it’s a histamine issue. And begin to identify where that sensitivity is. Any encourage people to work with practitioners who are adept at clearing those sensitivities, through N A E T. Very, very powerful mechanism. Third, we all have emotional baggage. One of the biggest roadblocks we come up against is if you haven’t released that emotional baggage, it will become fear. And the fears drive disarray and dysregulation in our body because it triggers hormones.
And those hormones are designed to accumulate iron. It’s a fact. And so it’y key to make sure that people realize that they’ve got to take the time and the steps to release that baggage, release those fears. So they can unbridle, the energy in the body that’s needed for healing. And then the fourth hurdle is parasites. But what I’m finding over the last couple of years is the pervasive impact of the parasites, there are very few doctors that take courses in parasitology not mainstream, clinical education.
And so because they don’t know about parasites, they don’t understand The role the parasites played to disrupt copper metabolism to build an accumulation of iron. And, what happens is, these parasites are particularly disruptive to our macrophages, the pet thief, the PacMan that are trying to keep things in balance. And a lot of people are worried about autoimmune diseases.
Well, what’s autoimmune? Autoimmune is, without exception, you’ve got iron-laden macrophages. Some way it goes so far as to say hemosiderin-laden, which means there’s so much iron in there, it’s frightening, but hemosiderin-laden, macrophages, parasites, and they haven’t dealt with the emotions. There’s a negative emotion behind every autoimmune condition.
And so people need to realize that these parasites, these intracellular pathogens, are very powerful. They’ve been on the planet, since the beginning of time. And what’s especially important is to recognize the work of a pet could overwhelm animal farms down in Australia. And she’s written multiple books on animal husbandry, but she makes a very striking point, any animal that’s copper deficient, will have parasites, and the animal with parasites will have a copper deficiency. Now, the mistake that’s routinely made by practitioners is thinking that parasites only hang out in the gut. Not true.
They’re there all over our body, but especially in our liver and our spleen, because of just the prevalence of iron in those organs. And so people need to rethink that they do have parasites, it isn’t just a simple gut cleanse, they probably need bio-resonance, or biomagnetism, ty introduced the frequency to break down the parasites and allow the natural healing energy to flow. And so those are the four, four areas of focus that wy concentrate on. And when we have success around those four areas, invariably, people make that shift. And they get back into the momentum phase, of getting well.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no awesome stuff. I already know when we’ve taxed it’s, it’s the answers are, is born out of just common sense Mother Nature things, versus having to crack the atom and come up with, you know, as you like to say, six standard deviation solutions. It’s a common-sense solution.
Morley Robbins: Exactly. Yeah. And I think there’s, there’s a simplicity and elegance to the body. And I think people need to appreciate that Mother Nature is pretty sophisticated at designing how our immune system is supposed to work. And it runs on energy and intelligence. And I would argue that copper is what brings both to the party.
There’s nothing intelligent about iron. It’s, it is it’s a very important element. We can’t live without it. But it is. It’s a dumbwaiter basically, it’s just carrying oxygen for thmost ofof the body. And in this, it’s been assigned to all these critical functions. But in every one of them, copper hiding in the background, every one of the functions, there’s a there’s a critical need for bioavailable copper, to make that iron responsible and do its job. And again, it’s in the literature, but it’s not in the headlines. And so don’t get past the headlines, you’re not going to understand what’s going on.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean, I think if someone’s listening to this, and they’ve gotten this far, they’re open to the idea that what they’re being told is not necessarily so are RCEP 123 dot com, that’s the place where they go to find is that correct?
Morley Robbins: Oh, RCP, 123 dot o RG or? It’s the root cause of protocol.com Just just to make it again.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Who owns the RCP 123 dot com?
Morley Robbins: Don’t know I don’t know if it even exists as a domain. We might own it. But by now I don’t think anyone does. But are we to look it up? No.
Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Well, awesome. Morley. I appreciate your time. I’d love to be able to keep an open invitation if you have the time and inclination to meet again. I wish you future success. I know, that you’ve announced to your community that you’re not necessarily getting out of the mix but you’re stepping back to do more of the research. So I wish you continued success and I guess fulfillment in the new role or the old new role that you’re going back into.
Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I’m looking forward to it. To me, it’s calling a stroke, radical, strategic sabbatical. And focusing on some critical issues that I think are going to help secure the growth and development of the movement. And I’m looking forward to that time in 2023, to do that.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, excellent. I mean, I’m looking forward as always, to being sort of on the sideline and seeing all the amazing things that you’re doing, and just wanted to thank you for your continued vigilance and everything that you do. Morley, thank you so much for taking the time today.
Morley Robbins: Well, our next conversation will probably be face-to-face in your office so I can’t wait for that. Perfect. Start to make those. Perfect, thank you so much.
Dr. Joel Rosen: You take care.
The post Metabolic Confusion: Why The Iron In Your Body Is Making You Sick? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults, the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And today, I’m joined by an expert in the field. And it’s a real pleasure. I told him, I’m like a kid in the candy store today.
I’m here with Gene Shan Shan, who is a Ph.D. and he is the CEO and founder of GE infinity precision medicine. They are a longevity biomarker company that is aiming to maximize your health span by testing biomarkers and yielding precision nutraceuticals that focus on NAD and senescence testing around the global market. So Dr. Gene, thank you so much for being here today.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She:
It’s my pleasure. Thank you very much.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so I met you earlier, you probably don’t remember, but you were at the A 4 am meeting. And I got my NAD test result, which was very, very low. And it was a shocker sort of smelling salt to see because I’m helping other people with their health. But ultimately, I’m kind of curious, I always asked my guests a little bit about their background story. And I know you’re in teaching and research. And you’ve been well known for your teddy study that screens hundreds of 1000s of newborns for HLA, Dr. Q, Dr., And DQ, I’m curious how tell me maybe a little bit of how that transitioned into longevity and NAD.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. So I have been an academic researcher on warm water for decades. And, my research, has been having a wide range of topics most of my research focused on childhood, diabetes, or type one diabetes, and we were trying to identify the genetic and environmental factors that cause type one diabetes, and doing during my studies, I have developed expertise in biomarkers, and was also appendix, and that the knowledge and the experience we gained through over the years can be applied to any diseases or conditions or biomedical question you want to be answered. And now about five years ago, I went to a meeting and met a functional medicine doctor in Florida.
And we started talking about longevity, biomarker testing, and why biomarker testing would be important to the whole failed field of functional medicine and longevity, in particular. So I have been interested in longevity now because you know, I’m getting to an age where longevity become important, I needed to do something for myself. Because I don’t want to be one of the people who are going to be not mobile or not functional enough, in their 50s and 60s, or 70s.
And if you look at the statistics, most of the aging-related diseases started occurring in the 50s, and the 60s, and our knife then is majorly reduced by the development of new Kornek aging-related diseases. So if we can come up with ways to prevent this condition, we should be able to extend the people’s lifespan, or at least the sales of spam by a decade, two decades, and even three decades. So that’s why you know, my interest has very kind of suddenly and rapidly turned the former childhood disease to an Asian relating that problem. And I’m very happy that I made the switch because I think I’m able to help myself, have my family, my friend, and work to help who the community needs to be a very exciting time. Sure.
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s exciting to hear your background. Thank you for sharing. I would also add that when you isolate a great predictor and assessment of the biological age and the chronological age via NAD, specifically intracellular NAD, then the type one diet diabetic children would stand to benefit with everything that you’re going to be doing to support the environment and the boosting of intracellular NAD would still not only help with longevity and health span and aging well but for sick people to heal quicker as well is that a correct statement.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Was needed. So we haven’t we looked at adding a few 1000s of even the biomarkers, three, four years ago, to come up with the data, maybe at most 2002 biomarkers that are most relevant to health performance, and longevity. And what came up at the very top is an ad. And, you know, that makes sense, because NAD is a coenzyme, that is important for the function of over 400, adding them without the NAD on is in times within a function at a wall.
So even if policies don’t function, then we don’t have health we even don’t have nice. So it is not only important for aging-related diseases, it was important for pretty much war settlement functions and health, and was important for almost all war major diseases. And We have indeed found only the deficiency in people with many different diseases. Right, it’s still
Dr. Joel Rosen: We could say it’s a very sensitive marker that will predict whether or not you’re, you’re heading in a good trajectory or not. Or maybe you’re already in a challenge, and you’re not aware of it. And it’s really good to be aware of what you have that you don’t realize that you have because it makes you take more accountability for your health. After all, you could see it in black and white. So I guess I guess the question is, now that you can measure the intracellular NAD, maybe tell our listeners why that was a problem in the past, or what the difference between circulating NAD and intracellular NAD is and how you were able to come up with testing it.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. I’m so needy, like many other molecules, ah, usually located inside of the cells. But a part faction of them can be a secret in Warren renice, from inside of the sales into the outside space, and then they got into the bladder certain nation. So that’s why I call the NAD in the liquid part of the blood that we call plasma, circulating NAD because the blood circulates with the body, and NAD was to circulate all over the body. And that’s going to be very important and probably in the later part of our discussion, because circulating in the hive has very different functions, as opposed to interest in the needy.
Now when most people talk about the functions of an ad, they are referring to an ad instead of the sales. They feel people maybe know what except for me, hydrogen talking about secondary being an ad war making a difference between certainly the ad and the interesting ad. And you know, I can continue and talk about them and how each of them functions or wait for your question.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, Please continue. I think it’s important I’ll just make a distinction for the listener that there’s a difference when you say NAD and how it’s such an important factor for longevity and aging and measuring that usable intracellular different function versus a circulating and I would say that is true with a lot of different nutrients and chemicals and compounds that if it’s intracellular or extracellular because just because it’s there doesn’t mean it’s inside, metabolically proteomic ly changing the cellular activity. So maybe with that please continue in terms of distinguishing the two.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. I will start by talking about the function of circulating NAD because NAD IV infusion has been I’m becoming very popular in Iran with the general public, especially in the longevity and wellness community. Now, you know only the IV has been very successfully used to treat various conditions, including new or novel conditions, dementia, Parkinson’s disease, and Alzheimer’s disease, and it’s also a way to the treatment for addiction, including opioid addiction. And you know, success is quite a good a, it has water being used to treat autism.
And it has been used to treat NIGMS disease, a war with, you know, very good success, successful stories, and oh, no, they are no clinical trials, no double-blind in the way biggest research design. But the clinical evidence of the benefit from the needy IV, I think the outfall. However, a lot of people will start using a needy IV. That’s the treatment for longevity and performances.
Um, I’m very sorry to report that only the IV is not really the best modality to even increase interest in the ad. And that has been surprising to many people. And I wouldn’t say that isn’t surprising to me, because of various reasons. And I can go into listing reasons, but the bottom line is, we now have quite extensive data to demonstrate that NAD IV does not increase interest in the NAD, at least in the vast majority of customers. Then, you know, you beg the question, why do you see the clinical evidence by doctors says like an increase in intracellular NAD? How do we reconcile these two? Observation?
And I think that we can explain the observations because an ad is a neurotransmitter. Very few people. Think about them, nobody will talk about it may on receptors for an ad on neuronal cells, immunological cells, immune cells. So that’s why, at least partly why the need for the I V. works quite well, for treating the similar terms that I talked about. Because they either serve as a neurotransmitter, it changed how the neuro network is wired to the war activated.
So that’s, I think that’s so it’s the circulating NAD wasn’t, was the only the other side of the sales letter siblings, I can win your transmitter, and that gave the patients the benefit for knives disease, even COVID. A patient is okay, but not with COVID, a patient or non-COVID patient is getting benefits from an IDI IV. Again, that’s probably through any deal of the Niagen and changes to the immune response. So only B is a very potent anti-inflammatory compound. So, you can explain why unity doesn’t get inside the field.
Mostly you’re interested in ads but still getting all the benefits. So I’m talking about that because I want to predict as well, customers’ patients to understand that if you use the same similar treatment similar compounds. For them, right indications, you’re gonna get a great benefit. But if you use it for the wrong purpose, you’re not going to get the benefit that you want. So it depends on what’s the purpose of the 30 You shouldn’t show to the right to the porch.
You know, for performance for longevity Do you have to boost your interest in an ad, because it is important for energy production, as we’re probably going to talk about them, and why it’s important. And a lot of people can plan, you know, they get tired and don’t perform in the uptake of NAD is really at play. And that’s primarily because of interest in the NAD. So you want to bang, you’re interested in the NAD to the optimum level for gain, and the peak performance in your country is medicine. Right? So choosing in wide approach for the inviter purposes, is extremely important. And I have started to may make people that will need it, and I think this is important, and we need to get the message.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Cool. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing your information. So from what I take I was gonna ask you Well, what counts for the therapeutic benefits extracellularly? And it acts as a neurotransmitter. And there’s a lot of therapeutic benefit for that.
But then at the same time, understand that don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, well, NAD in IVs didn’t work for me, because I expected it to help this or that, because it doesn’t show clinically that it’s gonna boost to intracellular levels, which we’ll get into in terms of not just performance enhancement and longevity, and health span, but I’m sure a whole host of other major metabolic functions that will improve the extracellular effect even further as well, is that correct?
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Absolutely. And so, with a nod of the when we can put into unity, you are going to get a host of benefits. And then you know, we can go through it. And you know, one by one, you mentioned quite a few of these, you know, improves energy. It protects your DNA from being damaged by oxidative stress and other things. And it was to help people snip, especially deep snip because only the actual in regulates the genes in involved in controlling sleep. And we also have a lot of evidence that posting an ad can improve insulin resistance, and insulin sensitivity, and that’s primarily through, I believe, the reduction of triglyceride.
And you can also reduce the summer divide in them like an IoT. So I think we’re going to discover new functions. And we continue to discover new benefits, you know, constantly, and this is such an important molecule that we can develop not treatment options for given the patient’s or to improve people’s overall health.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. I mean I’m sure you’re aware of the statistics that over 88% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy. And I look at the way to explain that as they’re just not respiring at the cellular level, effectively to use oxygen and the food to produce ATP and water. And as a result, they are burning. I guess they’re burning leaves and Kindle and they’re not igniting the log if you will.
I’m curious just to know before you were able to stabilize because you were saying no one tests intracellular NAD. Was it not known that or was just assumed up until that time that actually that IV NAD must boost intracellular and then through actually isolating the intracellular NAD and then retrospectively seeing if they were doing IV shots that it didn’t improve the level? How did you come to learn that? Oh, it doesn’t boost intracellular NAD.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Well, so you know, before we got involved, and people were not really making a difference, a distinction between interesting on NAD and secondary NAD and because it’s way hard to measure and especially circulating an ad and it never goes away. No I And, and the NAD in, in the past, MMA is very unstable. And you have a novel in time that can degrade the unity, the Unity molecule, especially, especially CD 38.
So, if you are not careful, if you don’t have writing sample pauses in strategy, you’re not going to be able to imagine, secondly, okay, but very few people were able to measure them, secondly, in AD, and so we kind of stumbled onto it, and I never question that, we wouldn’t be able to post the interesting ad, and we landed by, by data, you know, I’m a data scientist, I have my own opinions, theories about, you know, a lot of things.
But I’m N What I believe is not what I used to think I let the data guide me and make a decision for me, and, you know, I have done a lot of different things. But the one thing that I am proud of myself for is the ability to look at the data and look at data from a global view. And, from a very truthful view, I don’t want to I want my opinion to bias the data. And I think, unfortunately, that’s not what was true, even among scientists. I mean, I’m a scientist, I’m afraid to say that easily.
They don’t understand the data phony, well, they’re kind of biased by their own opinions in either Sunday is good. Till the fourth, never, you have to avoid. So I just look at the data. And the data that we have, from clinical trials that we have done, and from custom data war indicate that an ad IV does not post interest in an ad, there’s no doubt about it. And the black and white even though questionable is no doubt. If you want to want to increase your interest in AD, you got to use a different approach not to IV, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, so and to. So basically, it was very difficult to be able to stabilize, whether it was circulating NAD or intracellular NAD. And when you stumbled upon the ability to isolate intracellular NAD, you also know from a scientific point of view, there’s going to be circulating in the blood and it’s going to be sight inside the cell.
And through research and data and inferences. We know without a shadow of a doubt, that giving interest giving IVs with NAD doesn’t impact the intracellular NAD that I’m able to test for. So I guess the two-question part is, how were you able to isolate it? And then number two, what boosts intracellular NAD?
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Great question. So. So the measurement is way simple. And well, I shouldn’t say way simple for interest on an ad and a little more difficult for circulating an ad. And that’s why we don’t do an auto stimulating ad test because it’s more expensive, and requires shipping in in a container with a cold pack. And it becomes logistically more difficult.
We can we can we can do it and was entrusted in a needy way basically, to a finger prick. And you get a drop of blood onto another car that’s used for newborn screening. We include a small part of a buffer that will call a needy fixing buffer. You try to pull out the card and you fix the NAD and then drop it in, in a mail shipped back to to us in usually within you know five days you will get your data back in your own account in your own secure account is a very simple process. And the performance of the test is great.
The average variation between duplicates is 3.1%. And you know that is great To essay, and I’m very easy to do. So in the second part how what are the best ways to boost interest in an ad? And I’m sure there are going to be many different ways to do it. And so far what I know, is the best way to do it is through NAD precursive. And there are two major types of NAD precursors.
Why is coded in de Cocina, my rival site, and the second one’s called in m en de Cocina, my mono nucleotide? Now it takes them to make an ad from up. So we call in the two-step NAD precursor, it takes only one in them to make an ad from n n n. So we call it one step, NAD precursor. So imagine that there has been a North debate even war between the N camp and the N and N camp. And that’s been going on for years, probably over probably a decade or so.
Okay, I get asked which one works better? Well to choose is both precursors actually work pretty well. And if you have to make a distinguishing, then then n is probably going to work for more people in up Why is necessary. Because imagine that you have a deficiency in the exam that makes N to N m n, then to NAD, your Ni is not going to work because you cannot make an emphasis in law, if you’re deficient in the time to move to make a name for moving up, right.
And even though the internet’s deficient, your Indian men will still work because you don’t need to make it in your work giving in to to the customer, to the patient. So I think that there’s a number the proportion of people who have benefited from nm n should be higher than the percentage of people who can benefit from an up. I don’t know, what’s the proportion?
Okay, that’s the short answer, because I have not done the extensive study on in us and we have done have done within a min and 1000s and 1000s of patients and customers. So we know that n m n is a very good precursor. And it also is not only an N, the non may not be sufficient. And then n inom may not work for many patients, it doesn’t work for many, and it does not work for fairly natural proportion of people as well.
So that’s why you want to formulate the supplements, net highballing MN and then have other ingredients, their health and their mental function. And whatever you want to have ingredients net or booster, the oval war central activity and and that we have actually formulations such supplement that will call it vitality boost. And that can help over 95% of people to optimize the ad. Remember I call the Optimize, not increase, okay, because there is an optimum window of only the level that are probably the best.
And if you get a too much an ad, that may not be good. Well, no, I don’t know the absolute optimum level of the optimum range. But like everything else, too much is not necessarily good. And this is going to be a debate that will continue and I think that we have a lot of data to have unreasonable guidance on wills optimum range shouldn’t be but that will get a fine tune over time and with more data.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great rundown Doctor, thank you for sharing that the way I look at it too, is while it’s an amazing compound to be able to optimize NAD levels, it’s also the perfect storm combination of environmental stressors. And like you said, maybe two steps removed genetic enzyme deficiencies are weaknesses, and you can not just expect the supplement to be a magic one, you still have to address the things I always like to use basic economics demand, and supply.
So if you have weaknesses in the ability to supply it, and that could be dietary things, and it could be in nutrients, and it can be enzymes and so forth. And you have an increased demand to use it up. And that could be DNA breakdown and, and a whole lot of transport enzymes or other like just environmental stressors, then it’s like filling up a cup that’s got a hole in it, you’re never really holding that juiced if you will. And I liked the idea where we do genomic testing to be able to determine what are the weaknesses in your demands.
Meaning what requires more NAD sirtuin challenges, you mentioned CD 38 and inflammatory things we could get into but also DNA breakdown and challenges with X-rays and different types of increased demand for that lifestyle wise and then being able to see potentially, well you know what, you have that gene that doesn’t convert the NR into N MN and why would make no sense for you to take nr you just be yelling at the deaf person louder, expecting them to hear you. So I think that the great thing about where we’re headed is, even though it seems like the sky is falling to a certain extent with EMFs and pollutants, glyphosate, and social media, the stressors just are never-ending.
But then you have a brilliant fellow like yourself that’s coming up with ways to support longevity by testing and what you can track you can manage. And when you can see it in plain white, black, and white, you can improve it. So I appreciate that. So lots of other questions I guess we could talk about in terms of the salvage pathway and the de novo pathway. Did we kind of overlap what we talked about with just mentioning the things we did? Or can we boost both pathways? And what are those and what kind of thing?
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Yeah, we can so I think that you can for the lay audience, we you know, we don’t have to get into the power with Pettaway what you know what pathways kind of confuses people, I would simply say that they are hard to type in at precursive. I assume that you told me you’re a pretty good guy and I’m gonna put a good guy young Gray.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Like Building blocks kind of thing that you’re talking about building blocks or
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: The building blocks. So So you have the basic building blocks for NAD nicotinamide, and nicotinic acid. And some some people call it the two together with niacin, but most people use niacin nicotinic acid, okay. Even experts sometimes get nice, just the confused to want them to pay attention to it. So I That’s why I avoid use niacin. If I use niacin, I would only use nicotinic acid. Okay. So, it only the molecules basically, the basic element is nicotine amide and then you haven’t labeled and you have nucleotide.
Okay. And we’ll have another one right both in our body and we both have enough amount of nicotine amide but we don’t have enough to make it enough NAD. So many people have thought well we can take a nicotine amide war nicotinic acid and boost the level. And actually, the number of people can get very high levels of NAD. But the problem only a very small proportion of the people can get an ad hire using the very basic elements. They don’t work less efficiently.
MN, for example, By can, you can work for some people. So, and it was in addition, both nicotinic acid and the Bucha might have been the norm, and other health benefits as well, what’s important is to find out whether the strategies that one chooses or chooses are working for them. And we’ll come back to the testing. Without testing, you don’t know whether it’s working for you, or not, what’s the right type of supplement, what the brand of Cybermen and more importantly, how much you should take for you because we’re all built differently.
You know, you talk about the genomics, our genes, our DNA, our differences, and depending on what genes we have, what are the environmental exposures? We have? And what dietary exercise and all these, you know, environmental factors, and the past, our genes never determine how we respond to everything, including how we optimize our NAD. At the end of the day, if you cannot attest, you don’t know what is working or not. And to some individuals is super easy to get their energy very, very high, and even too high with other people is much more difficult.
And so that’s why we developed a test to help people identify what works for them how much they need, without taking too much when they’re not taking enough to weak get needy, optimized, not adjusted only to you know, to not, not all other tests, but we’re talking about needing now we get into the optimize, and you can stay near and have a great time.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Again, it’s a really great answer because everyone is different. Everyone has different stressors, no two snowflakes are the same, right? I mean, whether it’s genetics or environment, there’s no replica of the same factors that will support ad optimization. And so a couple of questions I wanted to get into were the relationship between an ad and biological and chronological age especially because I know you don’t just test NAD intracellular.
You test DNA methylation and you test senescence cells. So I guess it’s a good transition into what is the relationship between NAD and aging aside from what we’ve talked about already, if you don’t have it there, you’re going to age potentially quicker, but how are we using DNA methylation and senescence cells as a proxy and full power that I made because I didn’t plug my computer in before we started so I’m gonna get my computer I’m gonna have the edit this out but I’m gonna be getting my plug so I apologize. No problem.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Okay, great. Thank you.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, I’ll make sure we had it that out. So you can start with that with what however you want to start? Yeah.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: All right. So what was the next question?
Dr. Joel Rosen: We wanted to know the relationship between biological age and chronological age where NAD fits in and also DNA methylation senescence cells what do you do sort what’s the sort of interrelationship
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. Um, so you know, the chronological age is simple is you know, your your birthday in present time minus your birthday, right? But the chronological age may or may not reflect how you are doing and what’s your power, logical age. You can estimate your biological age by men in different ways. One of the most popular way of measuring biological age is to use DNA methylation, and the test is available from many different companies. They this test can provide a good estimate on what one’s biological age. And we will also provide.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: About the module age test from our company. But I think it is good information to have, and it can be used to assess what longevity Thereby is providing benefits. I think that is useful information, how well it can do? I’m not so I’m not so sure. And I don’t know whether an ad can influence the methanation age. I don’t have the data yet.
And it’s some it’s a question that we wouldn’t like to answer. But they are suggestions that NAD can extend your telomere names, and your telomeres are the end of the chromosome. And they get shortened over time. And you can use telomeres to measure balance as you age as well. And there is some evidence that anybody can keep the telomere no longer for a longer period.
So that’s why these are still open questions that we needed to study unless a way you know the scientific community. And what we do know is the following. So we know only that is a very good anti-inflammatory compound when discussing that needle. In colonic inflammation is one of the underlying causes of war, chronic diseases. And so keeping inflammation under control. Another good for one’s health, there’s no doubt about it. So we know only the provides a lot of benefit on that.
We also know that NAD can help reduce oxidative stress. Oxidative stress is free radicals that our cells produce. That’s the byproduct. We create energy to create ATP molecules. And that’s just a part of what our sales do. But depending on the settlement conditions, some people produce more free radicals are a waste of the produce nests. Unfortunately, Americans particularly high in oxidative stress, if you look at Caucasians in America versus Caucasians in Europe, European-wide and America-wide, and American whites have much much higher oxidative stress than European white men genetically, they should be comfortable in the lifestyle as you you mentioned.
So if you look at African Americans, the level of oxidative stress is even higher. If you compare Asians now Chinese, I’m Chinese and Chinese from America have much higher oxidative stress than Chinese in China. So something that we do here, the probably the food is particularly bad to create free radicals. And that’s very important. Subhealth issues won’t risk effectively for diseases that way that medical professionals don’t talk about well, it’s a nice don’t talk about enough.
And this is something that I’m I’m very interested in again to you know, get the ideas and To attract people’s attention, you got to pay attention to this free radicals to the oxidative stress. Because bad for our health, and damages our DNA damages our proteins, equate to war kinds of the apartment. Some people even go that far to saying that, you know, oxidative stress or mitochondrial dysfunction, underlying causes of everything. And I think that they are some, you know, good reasoning behind that argument. And it is something that we needed to pay much more attention to.
And the third benefit and that anybody can have is to reduce cellular senescence. Cellular senescence is becoming very popular, not only in the Nativity community, but now it’s starting to gain popularity in the mainstream or Nigerian medical community, because it’s involved in so many different diseases. And we have shown, I’ve shown that senescence determines how cervical cancer patients respond to chemotherapy. And the survival time is not dependent on the cellular senescence level.
And then that’s just one example. So and so these are the three biggest risk factors for health or for disease, chronic inflammation, oxidative stress, cellular senescence, the three biggest and we can take care of these three, and war three are limited to only the level. And finally I want to emphasize and we’ll have a data forward is your only the level external influence will even go as far as the setting determines how you can respond to other therapies, including anti inflammatory, anti senescence, and antioxidative treatment. If you’re only level is not high on optimization, your response to this treatment is much Ness, than otherwise.
So that’s why I’m saying to a lot of people, I mean, even even your listeners don’t remember anything, just remember the next sentence. And optimization is the first and necessary step towards health and longevity. This is the first thing that you want to stress. Because of the influence, so many defensive. Fortunately, we know how to do it now is something that we really can do.
And we just need to make people aware of when and started taking action, I’m trying to convince the people one by one, I spend a lot of my time to talk to, you know, my, my customers and and try to help them to figure out how to get into the optimize, and certainly can get the full benefit of everything else that they try to do to stay healthy. And to stay out of diseases.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s great Summary Notice if for nothing else continue to optimize your NAD levels through proper lifestyle and nutrition. And I guess what’s amazing with what you’re alluding to is now that we can benchmark and quantify what our actual levels are, and we could manage it. We can also I guess, create protocols before we do certain things like chemotherapy, radiation, and so forth so that you have better outcomes, knowing going into it, that you’re already constitutionally strong, to be able to have a more favorable outcome.
The other thing I’ll say too because I do want to introduce you to what we were talking about earlier, Bob Miller, and help you maybe do some research studies with people that have very low NAD levels. And no matter what you do, they don’t go up, and then being able to see what are these genomic things but one of the things he mentioned to me, which I think resonates with what you were saying with the American male versus the European or the Asian male, is that genetics aren’t different per se very, a very small percentage, but environmentally it is and I think he kind of gave us not the Doomsday, but they like, will look back at some point in time in our environment and say, What were we thinking.
And this is a direct quote in terms of glyphosate and polyesters, and aluminum. And just the list goes on and on and on and on in terms of what we’re doing to our biochemistry that’s depleting our inborn chemistry that ultimately expresses as aging and sickness and hence, that’s why we see so many people falling apart with different exposures to different pathogens and different different, you know, life stressors.
And one thing that I remember you telling me, which I think it’s important to talk about when we were at the firm meeting was that a lot of people who don’t will probably not want to hear this. And you did mention the concept that I guess the fight between the Hatfields and the McCoys or the nm camp and the NMR camp. But also the reality is, is that maybe you can comment on the quality of the nutrient, all things being equal, and how much you need, because a lot of people are hopefully trying to get them up not knowing that the measly amount or the on the standardized source that they’re getting it from, is not going to move the needle. So maybe shed light on that, from your perspective.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: yeah, no, no, I, you bring up an extremely important question. And we have some answers. So if you look at most supplement companies, including some of the very big ones, and better known, they don’t recommend enough. Okay, so based on our extensive data, I’d recommend 1000 milligrams of Indian and war in to start with, and that’s a good starting point, some people are going to need nests, and other people are going to need more.
But you don’t, you don’t, you don’t want to start up on tunnel or too high. And if the midpoint is 1000, milligram AMI, you can do it, I do the twice a day. And because I like to put my energy and, even more often. So if you want to do the one once a day, that’s fine, but I’d recommend that it twice a day. So what’s interesting is there seems to be a threshold, not that you have to pass to get your own at you, if you don’t pass net a threshold, you are going to get no benefit.
When this benefit. Unfortunately, a huge proportion of people who have been taking the product for sometimes a year, get very needle will no poster will needy because the amount of money that has been taken is not near the threshold. And this threshold is not the same for everyone. Okay, it’s variable. And that’s why you know, we have to test. So once you pass this ratio, you need to never actually jump pretty quickly. If you be known as a straight home, you can wait for a little boost. If you do above this threshold, boom, it goes up.
So that’s no magical solution. Unfortunately, you just have to start with the right dosage and write the product and then get the test in very quickly. And to find out where you are. So you can decide whether you want to increase or decrease the dosage whether you want to switch given the brand or given the type of types of supplements or different types of treatment to get to your level to where you work. And that’s basically what you needed to do. So I have one I have one customer I’m not gonna say his name he’s starting from 100 milligrams a day.
Thank you there are so many tests are with me as I said, why you spending all this money? I mean, he went up from you know, 100 milligram and then he increased by 100 milligram every time I look at To The Test assets you need to need, we need to push it up he either to go up to 1500 milligrams a day. And he kind of has never to over 90 Miko. And then I told him to reduce it a little bit. Now he’s the one the 17, which finished his test yesterday at a 72. Now, we prefer the coveted spot.
So if you’ve been listening to me, I would have had an optimized with the two tests. And within, you know, four to eight weeks. Another misconception is people think that takes a long, long time to get an ad up it No, it’s not true, you only need two to four weeks, and you may people only after a few days, you’re gonna see the level is already high. So most people will reach a very high level after two weeks. And by four weeks, almost everyone reaches a peak. So that’s why I recommend retesting between two and four weeks. You have your level up by two weeks, forget about Memphis, the strategy is now working for you.
Dr. Joel Rosen: You know the analogy I like and you said it earlier were simple guys, we don’t want to go into the weeds per se, we just want to know what we need to do to boost the levels. And the analogy I would use is I don’t get that I haven’t paid my Well, now they’re being paid for. But student loan is a bad example.
But I don’t get why I’m not making a dent in my student loans. Because you’re only making interest payments. That’s why and until you cut into the deficit. And that’s that progressive overload. I’m trained in exercise physiology. And if you do exercises that don’t stimulate any type of response, it’s a no response. If you do a little bit more than what you need, it’s going to be a progressive overload. If you do a lot more than what you need, that difference is going to be a pain.
And I think you want to just not have so much pain with NAD. But you want to do a little bit more than what you need. And then that’s also pointing to the idea of why American men would have lower levels or more oxidative stress and addressing your lifestyle factors and knowing what exposures and what chemicals and what stressors and especially we didn’t get into we’ll do it for part two we’ll leave a little cliffhanger is in terms of one of the major ways that NAD gets depleted is through our nutrient sensing pathways.
And I think the world is catching up on the obesity rates to Americans, if you look at all the different countries now. So I don’t know if we share the prize in that anymore. But maybe we can use that as a segue for the next time that we talk if you’re willing to do in terms of well, how the what’s time-restricted eating? What’s the relationship between a toffee G and eating lots of protein and mTOR? What does that have to do with anything and what do sirtuins have to do with this, so that we can maybe go a little bit deeper for other people?
But the bottom line is to get tested, and know what your levels are so that you can determine and then embark on a prerequisite and building blocks and lifestyle recommendations to boost it, and then get your levels up. And what I liked about your company is that you have on your website that we’ll give links out to the podcast when we publish this if we don’t boost your levels, we will work hand in hand with you to be able to troubleshoot why.
So what I do is I always ask my a question to my guests before we leave, as I say, hey, knowing what you know now, and you’re a smart guy, and I’m sure you’ve always been a smart guy. But you may have not had all this information when you were bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, what would you have told the younger version of yourself that would have helped you or Accelerated your health or just your longevity at an earlier age if you would have known what you know now what would you have told yourself back then?
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: What a very, very good point so, and that one surprise to me was we saw a way sharp and Deputy canine crime of an ad in many people in their native 20s That was shocking. So the point is, you want to start managing your health as early as possible, you know, the twin people in their 20s and 30s I used to be there and they think they are invincible. No, that’s not true. And if you kill yourself, kill yourself healthy, you’re gonna stay healthy for a long, long time. But if we don’t, don’t pay attention to our health and our younger ages, you’re going to pay our dues when we reach old age nears. Now it’s never too early to start paying attention to your health.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great point because you know, you’re seeing, I think for the first time in decades, the lifespan or the age ranges is like life expectancy is going down, I believe. And also type two diabetes is no longer called adult-onset diabetes. And you’re seeing so much more metabolic chaos, if you will, with these kids nowadays, and sleeping with their phone underneath their pillow and Wi-Fi and Amazon Prime and the refrigerator opened at 2 am, and all of these different things that really pull on the purse strings of their longevity and deplete their NAD, it’d be interesting to be able to do a test of 20-year-olds and add in the 19 hundred’s 20-year-olds in the 1920s and then see the NAD levels may be inclined and then decline, I don’t think we’ll be able to do that.
But listen, I appreciate your time. If you have any other questions or points you want to bring in now otherwise, I would love to be able to maybe schedule a part two and then I’m excited to start getting my own NAD levels because I want to be in have integrity with what I do because mine were super low and I’m waiting for my next pure product to come in to be able to boost them and to be able to offer testing to people not just the the the NA intracellular NAD but also looking at some of these other signs of aging and inflammatory weaknesses that need to be addressed. And I’m just really grateful for smart guys like you that offer amazing products and services and information to people that are searching for it. So thank you so much for what you do.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Thank you very much. It has been my pleasure to talk to you this afternoon. And your port as well arrives next Monday and I look forward to getting your immediate optimization. I know you’re getting the fear amazing once you get it optimized.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Thank you so much. And I’ll talk to you at our next show.
Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Great thanks.
The post NAD+ Explained | Reasons why it’s absolutely critical to healthy aging appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue and fatigue and exhaustion in general, and how to get their health back. And this is part three with my buddy Don Moxley. He’s the director and applied science and brand development at longevity labs in the US.
And he’s dedicated to helping people live a vibrant, fulfilling life and using his background as an athlete and sports scientist instructor to help educate people on the science of basically a toughie, G, and longevity, and we got a couple of new things going on in Don’s world. So I invited Don back to have a conversation and for you to listen in over our shoulder. So, Don, thanks so much for being here. Once again.
Don Moxley: My pleasure. Dr. Joel loves spending time with you. We’re going to be down in Florida for Christmas. So we will have worked our way from the far northwest. We were in Blaine Washington about three weeks ago. And had I messed up because we got a picture up next to it’s called the Peace Arch, which is right on the US-Canadian border right there on the Pacific.
And then the next week, I was down in San Diego. And I was about an hour from the southwest border. But I didn’t get a chance to go down and get that picture. But my wife and I are talking about maybe going down to Key West when we’re out there. Just go ahead and get the pictures in all four corners.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you’ll have to go back to the bottom there and San Diego and get that one again. Just say prove that you did it.
Don Moxley: There you go. I mean, you know, that’s it’s all about proof. Right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you have to you can’t just say it you got to do you got to prove it. So. So we had the conversation a little bit before we got started about just how your life has changed. And in our last couple of interviews, you tell us about the different phases of your life and how you’re headed into that sort of that last third or the let’s call it the back nine in terms of doing things differently and to your plan. Maybe we can start with that. And then just Springboard with What’s New in education and what you’re teaching.
Don Moxley: Back nine, but I’m playing 27 holes drill.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. Yes.
Don Moxley: Well, yeah, it’s, it’s been interesting. I don’t remember when on our last podcast, we started our journey. But back in my daughter was finishing up grad school, and she was living with us. She moved out on January 2 of this year. By January 21. My wife and I have sold our house, we bought a 42-foot fifth-wheel trailer. And we started traveling in May. We just spent almost five months out west of Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, and Washington. We’re working our way back. We’re talking today. We’re back in central Ohio today, as we talk to you. But Sunday I’ll be in North Carolina. We’ll be there for Thanksgiving, we’ll be down in Florida for Christmas. And then we’re going to start to work our way back out west.
But we decided we wanted to go find our next home. We want to wake up in the morning and drink our coffee, looking at the mountains. But you know, I didn’t want to I don’t want to buy a home office Zillow. I want to go figure out where we’re Where did where do we find a spot to fix our lifestyle? So that’s what we’re doing. We’re off on an adventure trying to find letting our next home find us.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and at the same time, it’s you’re working as well. And I think it’s a really good segue into as we talk about stress and the impact that it has on the body, and how we can determine if the stress is helping us or hurting us. And I guess is a good sort of intro into what’s new in your world. You go and you lecture for the company that you work for. And I’m sure you have new topics of conversation and new product launches. So let’s get kind of caught up on where you are there.
Don Moxley: Yeah, the big thing that happened, Joel is that so we launch longevity labs a little over two years ago. And during that launch, there is a podcaster by the name of Dave Asprey that featured us and we took off it was a really good feature for us. And when you back then when you subscribe to longevity labs, our product sperm and I in life, and we can talk a little bit more about that because we’ve got a little bit more research along the way. But you got an invitation to have a phone call with me so I wound up having telephone calls with I don’t know 700 800 People. Now Asprey is an aura ring HRV promoter.
I believe he’s on their advisory board. And what we found Joe was probably 80% of the people I was talking to had aura rings or they were you see some type of HRV measurement device of those that had it 80% Didn’t know what the hell to do with it. I mean, they, they bought it, they thought it was cool, but they hadn’t quite figured it out. So this has been an HRV is one of my specialties. That’s one of the things I zeroed in on. When I was a sports scientist at Ohio State, you know, we were able to use it as a tool to predict success. And it’s, it’s as much a tool for predicting health, as it is predicting success.
You know, you open the show talking about adrenal burnout. We have adrenal burnout when we have too much sympathetic stress. We’re not managing it. Well. We have our adrenals that are overhyped, and they wear themselves out. Well, part of that is being able to deal with adrenal stress, being able to deal with sympathetic and parasympathetic boosts.
When we’re doing that our HRV measurements will improve. And you know that at the end of the day, that’s what we’re looking for. Now, here’s one of the challenges that we have, when we talk to people, a lot of people talk about struggling with sleep. They’ll talk about not being able to necessarily, you know, they have a racing brain, there’s a lot of things that go into this, that we fix with things like meditation and so forth.
Well, you know, when I left Ohio State, one of my I moved to Florida and I worked in the cannabis business because back then I had a very good friend who had worked in a wearable company with he said, What do you know about HRV and, and cannabis or THC and I said, I don’t know anything. My athletes are all NCAA athletes. And, you know, they, they we kick them off the team if they test positive. But then at the same time, the work we’re doing, I’m getting calls from some pro coaches saying, Hey, have you looked at this THC thing yet?
And I thought, okay, there’s something here I need to figure out so I went and took a dove headfirst into the deep end of the pot pool, and started selling weed in South Florida for one of the licenses. One of the licensed groups down there and started learning and, Joel here’s the first thing I learned. You know, I’ve taught Exercise Sciences. I’ve taught the Exercise Sciences for 35 years now. We have part of our central nervous system that’s called the endocannabinoid system, the internal cannabinoid system. It’s part of our nervous system. endocannabinoid system should be chapter two.
When we teach exercises one-on-one, it should be the second thing we teach. Because, you know, so much of exercise is based on I want to lose weight, I want to look pretty, I want to listen, some of us are never going to be pretty no matter how much we workout. And I’ve accepted that and my wife loves me for who I am, and we’re good to go. But I can’t lose enough weight to become Brad Pitt. You know, just, you know, just not there. And in fact, losing weight is a bad exercise goal. It’s a really bad exercise goal.
We’ve been failing at this for decades. But what exercise does do is it triggers the production of a molecule in your system that’s called anandamide. anandamide is an endo cannabinoid. It’s a molecule that your body produces, they call it the Zen molecule. It’s a molecule that your body produces that improves neural communication and looks at the enemy and promotes parasympathetic tone. So the reason you should exercise is because of a lot of longevity things a lot of brain-derived neurotrophic and you makes you smarter, but also you produce anandamide.
Well, as we’ve worked for longevity labs, and as we’ve looked at the role of sperm or dine in the autophagy pathways, what we’ve learned, you know, when probably the last time I talked to you, we were referring to sperm tonight as a calorie restriction, mimetic. It mimics fasting. Well, based on some research that’s going on that will be published by the end of the year, we’re prepared to move sperm dying down into the cell, we can now say that it is a key molecule in the autophagy pathway.
Without sperm iodine, you don’t get a toffee G. It’s not a stimulant. It’s a key molecule. Now, what’s that mean to what we’re talking about today? Well, what we found is that there are some essential molecules that we adapted that we can bring into our system to help physiological processes. This physiological process we’re talking about is related to HRV as being able to monitor sympathetic versus parasympathetic stimulus. We listen sympathetically is easy to come by, you know, there’s lots of paper lions out there.
Most people are pretty wrung out. And then when you when they’re not exercising when they’re not sleeping when they’re not doing the key things that create anandamide? Well, it starts to head downhill, and you get that cascading effect. Well, you know, that the people at longevity labs came to me and said, so if you’re going to create a nutritional supplement to improve HRV, what would it look like? And this is something I’ve been working on, you know, I, you know, I’ve, I’ve tried to give this recipe away many times, to many manufacturers, and no one bid on it. So when my company came to me and said, Let’s do this, I said, Okay, let’s get this formulated.
So, what we’re talking about is a product called HRV. Plus, longevity Labs is launching a sub-brand. That’s called the mode and method mode method. If you go to mode method.com, put your email in there. And you will be notified when we launch we expect to launch at the beginning of December. Now, anytime that you’re launching new products some issues got to go with that. So I can’t promise it but that’s what we’re shooting for. So if there’s a listener interested in this, go to mode method.com There’ll be a window pop up, put your email and you’ll be notified immediately.
And on checkout when it when we do notify you on checkout, there will be a code look at the show notes web for a code for Joel that will give you a little bit of a discount too but mode method.com and the product is called HR v plus, it is a combination of cannabinoids so we use CBD what a lot of people have heard about CBD, but we use it in a much higher concentration than what most people are used to. What I believe is the really valuable molecule is CBD it’s the acid version of CBD. It’s what the plant produces.
You know, CBD is largely a byproduct of the cannabis industry creating adult-use rec products. It’s kind of a byproduct of that. CBD A is what comes right out of the plant and CBD does not bond to any receptors in your body. It doesn’t bond to CB, it doesn’t bond to CBD. I take that back and do bonds and pain receptors, but it doesn’t bond with any receptors in the endocannabinoid system. CBDa does. So CBDa is an active participant in this in the endocannabinoid system. And then we combine the cannabinoids with what’s called a dietary cannabinoid that’s called beta-caryophyllene.
Beta-caryophyllene has an outstanding profile of not just bonding the CB one well, what it does is it boosts anandamide, which bonds to CB one, and it bonds to CB two, which improves inflammation and lowers pain. But it also bonds to a host of pain-reducing receptors and lowers inflammation, it is a wonderful product. So we have this great combination, we call it a terpene. It’s also been referred to as a
dietary cannabinoid, because literally, it’s so close to the cannabinoids, chemically, but it’s produced in other plants, so they don’t call it a cannabinoid. And then Joel, we take that combination, and we put it into a DHA, EPA Omega three oil. But the Omega three oil is also enhanced with what’s called specialized pro-resolution mediators. So we call these es PMS. And an S Pm is the biologically available Omega three that resolves the inflammation pathway. So when anytime that we have inflammation, it’s going to lower HRV HRV. And inflammation goes hand in hand. So if you have low HRV, you’ve probably got an inflammation thing going on. Now, how do you deal with inflammation?
Well, we get our omega threes up, first of all, because you know a lot of inflammation is the byproduct of too many Omega sixes, we got to get them balanced. But we can go ahead and get some and usually pain with that. So we’re throwing a bunch of NSAIDs on top of that, which is not letting the inflammation process resolve itself because we’re blocking too many pathways. Well, we’re putting SPMs right in the product. We’re putting that finalized piece in there. And, the combination of the cannabinoids and the biologically available omega threes has turned out to be a pretty powerful tool. You know, you’ve been able to use the product for a couple of months now. We’ve had it out there in sample form with a lot of people.
We’re getting great feedback on sleep. The first thing people talk about is I took this and I slept like a baby that night and it’s To the point now, you don’t get that kind of a robot Tussin sleepiness, it’s not that barbiturate base kind of sleepiness, you, you get good natural sleep, you crash out at night. If you have to get up during the night, you get up you can go right back to sleep and you wake up in the morning and you’re not groggy.
So, and I and I think what’s happening here I’m pretty excited about this is that we’re supplying the micronutrients that are necessary for the endocannabinoid system to operate appropriately to, to restore homeostasis to our endocannabinoid to ours, our, our nervous system, the portion of our nervous nervous system, the autonomic portion of our nervous system, establishing that back, so we’ve been pretty happy with our sampling program, we’re getting ready to start a couple of research studies with this with a couple of wearable groups. So we’re excited about the product and how it’s going so far.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, listen, that’s awesome lots to unpack and see the different rabbit holes that you’ve gone down dawn with the endocannabinoid system, and the CB, CB, one, CB, CB, D two are, there’s a lot of science behind it, which I don’t quite understand myself. And what I want to try to do is combine how sperm iodine is now not just an I guess it’s a cofactor, if you will, for Tophet G is that accurate to say?
Don Moxley: We’re calling it a critical mechanism in the autophagy pathway. And, where we go back to Joe, we did it, we did this, there was a study that was done in Austria. So if you take a mouse and you fast it you get a toughie G, if you take a spermidine knockout mouse, and the faster you get nothing, okay, so by knocking sperm and out out of the autophagy pathways in mice, it rocked the system. So again, I don’t think it’s fair to call them a medic anymore.
So that’s been one of the exciting parts of our work with sperm iodine. And, you know, listen, what one of the reasons we’re in this space we had a lot of our users tell us, they saw an improvement in their HRV with sperm at night, okay, and so and when you look at a tapa G and inflammation, anytime that you have high inflammation, you probably have low autophagy.
Most of the time, when we’re able to boost the tapa G, we lower inflammation, and that link of inflammation to the autonomic nervous system to what we’re measuring with HRV is interesting. So all we’re doing with HRV plus is coming in the backside of that autonomic nervous system. And making sure the basic micronutrients are there. So your body can achieve homeostasis, so you get a good sleep so that you can start this process of recovery. So we can, so we can lower sympathetic, because anything, anytime we have bad sleep, and we have inflammation, we have a sympathetic bump and you’re in your and your adrenals are going to pay the price. The only way you can stop that is lower that adrenal stress, and increase the parasympathetic response. And that’s what we’re trying to do with HRV. Plus.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s just interesting gone, how all of this longevity, health optimization, a toffee, G growth factors, inflammation, immune dysregulation, they’re starting to become together like a symphony. And it’s not just throwing the crap against the wall and just hoping that everything sticks, it’s more done in a pattern or more of a, I guess, orchestrated way.
And so I guess that’s a good way to put it. Yeah. So with that being said, again, just to summarize, we’re looking at people that would have a lot of stress in their life, a lot of to-do lists a lot of immune challenges, their cert rhythm, and their day, their tired at during the day, and they’re up at night, and they just don’t feel healthy. And ultimately, a big part of that is because they’re not getting into a toffee g where that helps to recycle their cells and clear that out.
And as a result, that can put too much sympathetic tone in the body, which lowers that HRV and creates almost a vicious cycle where the inflammation just feeds forward. So I guess the question is how, when you’re designing the studies, or even just recommending to your, your user or educating them, Are you starting to put together the orchestration down because I know Yeah, I guess that’s the question we can go with. Yeah,
Don Moxley: That’s as far as orchestrating on an individual basis, Joel? It’s difficult because, you know, listen, orchestration involves instruments, instruments can be tuned. So you can play if you’re trained and I’m trained, we can take the same instrument and get the same notes out of it. Okay? That’s not necessarily the same with the human body, you know, you’ve got to set genetics, I have a set of genetics, your environments, different my environments different. In the same way, the instrument may sound different, whether I’m in a room with a brick wall, or I’m in a concert hall, there’s certainly going to be a difference in environments.
So this is where we see HRV as a really important key molecule, it’s a key indicator. I believe it’s one of the most powerful key performance indicators there is. It tells you whether you have resiliency and whether you’re ready for the stress that comes.
So I love that. One of my other key performance indicators, personally, is watts per heartbeat. So I write up I love riding bicycles, I’ve had eight knee surgeries, so I don’t run anymore. So I ride bicycles, and I always ride. So we have a peloton in our rig. So we have a 42-foot fifth wheel. And one of the things when we decided on this life, we’re like, Okay, we have to have exercise with us.
And the hack. So you look over my right shoulder, you see my sauna, you look. On this side of me, you see my red light panel, you know, we designed our rigs so that we can have these key pieces. So one of my KPIs is watts per heartbeat. I know that as my wattage goes up on, on the peloton, and as my heart rate goes down at a given wattage, I’m getting the effect I want, I’m getting more power per heartbeat, my mitochondria are functioning, my red blood cells are there my systems are developing. And consequently, there’s an HRV benefit that goes with that, that when I’m at my highest fitness levels, I’m typically at my highest HRV levels. So again, HRV watts per heartbeat. For me, these are key performance indicators.
They’re, you know, I used to use key performance indicators back as an athlete, you know, how much can you squat? How much can you deadlift, things like that? I don’t use those as much I make sure and deadlift and squat and do those things.
But I don’t necessarily worry about it, is it 800 pounds? Or is it 700 pounds, I don’t worry about that. I haven’t been under a bar that had more than 300 pounds on it, and many, many years. So but my KPI is my HRV climbing because what I know, as we age, and as we move closer to death, when it relates to healthspan HRV drops, right before death HRV will be zero. The more I can push my HRV up, the farther I am away from death.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Right. And I think that’s a good point gone in terms of not micromanaging the less important data points and seeing the more important movers the of the needle. And I like so back to maybe that aura ring user that didn’t know what to do now they are armed with, I guess, with longevity labs, products in the sperm iodine and the HRV plus division to take the thinking out of it and take the supplement and see the results is that.
Don Moxley: Well, I still think you have to think Listen, it’s your body. You’ve I mean, there’s not a doctor out there that’s brilliant enough to see you in their office once or twice a year, and give you the kind of feedback that you need to maximize your lifestyle. This is a completely 100% self-driven process. Listen, you know how you work, you know what you like, when you do on vacation. You know, there are certain things, you got to own your longevity, you got to own your performance.
Do you mean coaches can help? But at the end of the day, you got to have your performance indicators. And frankly, you know, when you have HRV working well, and you go out in let’s say you go out drinking with your friends one night, you’re gonna wake up and you’re gonna tank your HRV for a couple of days. Okay, I have found following HRV is the best tool I’ve ever seen for people to quit drinking because alcohol is brutal. You know, with my athletes we used to we would do 24 and 48-hour HRV studies on them. And I was able to demonstrate to my athletes going out and having four beers before going to bed. Got your sleep efficiency in half. Okay, so that four beers in eight hours of sleep was worth four hours of sleep, which isn’t enough.
Okay. So, for the first time, we had objective data that I can show to my athletes. You know, listen, you go back to Rocky you know women weaken the legs you don’t drink before, you know, there’s all these these these wives tales now out, you pay a price when you drink, period, end of the story. I have, it’s, I hardly drink anymore on occasion I have, you know, I’ll have something in an event or something like that, but I rarely drink alcohol anymore. You know, the benefit of alcohol, they used to say was in resveratrol.
That resveratrol benefit comes in the first few sips, rarely found at the bottom of the bottle. And you know, and the price you pay with the alcohol is significant. And I’ll tell you the other thing, frankly, if I feel like I want to introduce some intoxication into my life on the night, I do it with cannabis. I use cannabinoids because it does not crush my endocannabinoid system. I can I can enjoy that. I can wake up the next day and not be hungover. And excuse me. I can wake up the next day not being hungover and I’m able to function and have a good response from it doesn’t hurt me.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and we’re talking about THC at this level. Right?
Don Moxley: Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of THC, a lot of CBD, and a little THC. I think that’s where my sweet spots at.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, okay, I got you. So for those that aren’t as sophisticated, they get a little bit paranoid because they don’t want to necessarily have the negative stigmas or if there still are with that, maybe sort of unpack that Don with the HRV plus, and what CBD is because I think some people still aren’t knowledgeable about that. Sure.
Don Moxley: And that’s a great question. So when the cannabis plant produces its cannabinoids, they come in two large groups. One is called the car that’s the acid and ca when you decarboxylated it when you heat it and it loses the acid, it then becomes psychologically reactive it will bond to the CB one receptor, and that CB one receptor bonding THC causes intoxication.
That’s how you get high. Now CBD will not bond to the CB one receptor. CBD won’t bind to either CB one or CB two. binding the CB two does not create intoxication. It lowers inflammation and improves immunity. It works in a lot of the same pathways that autophagy works in. So when we designed our product, we designed our product there’s there it’s made from hemp, which has to be below point 3% THC by volume. So we pass all those rules there’s nothing in our product that will intoxicate you and but then again when people are using it the sleep has been off the scale it’s been you know it’s not asleep supplement, but it’s a supplement a lot of people are using for sleep.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and just so curious so let’s say like just for the argument’s sake if someone did have a dispensary and get THC and they took the HRV plus, the cannabinoids in there seem to cut somewhat of the euphoric intoxicant feeling of
Don Moxley: Not necessarily there’s a thing with THC, that’s called the entourage effect, where one plus one equals three. So you’ve got to be a little careful because everyone’s different, everyone’s systems a little different. So what we recommend is that if you do use THC, and you’re using HRV plus simultaneously, be careful to figure out how it’s going to work because that entourage effect, it’s talking about it could add a little more to it.
You want to make sure it’s not going to roll you up a little bit instead of rolling you down. Right? So So you got to pay attention. Anytime that you’re messing with cannabinoids, you got to pay attention to that everyone’s different and so their endocannabinoid systems are different.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and you know I hadn’t even anticipated talking to you about this but this was sort of a light bulb that just came on I remember texting you and asking your opinion on the way the CDA or what iifI forget what it’s called I’m not the THC and not the CBD but they have
Don Moxley: what is it? So So there are a lot of long chains cannabinoids there CBC CBG CBN mean, so cannabis Geral cannabinoid cannabidiol we’re not playing in that space. We have an extract that has a known CBD CBD and beta-caryophyllene blend. Those are the big three we’re going after. Whether we go down the sea EBG or CB N pathway at some point in time, I’m not sure we’re certainly going to look at some other combinations we’re working with some formulators from across the country, looking at other terpenes, other plant terpenes, and how they work. And you know, there’s some, there’s some pretty interesting like acetylcholine esterase inhibitors. Listen, if we can boost acetylcholine, that’s probably a pretty good thing.
And you can do that with some terpenes. So we’re exploring that. It is not in this product, this product we have designed strictly for this HRV plus. And again, we get that with the CBD CBDa and the beta-caryophyllene. All in the Omega threes, particularly with the SP PMS, the specialized pro-resolution mediators, which I’m, I’m excited to introduce to an audience that just isn’t that familiar with them. I love SPM. They’re wonderful tools. So we’re excited to get it in the product.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure that and the resolvins. I was just listening to a DNA lecture by one of my mentors, and they’re going down the arachidonic paths, pathways, and they’re looking at platelet aggregation and thrombosis and some broke from you know, thrombosis, and just having upregulated stress response when you get these exposures, that you tend to put more inflammation into the bucket then, your counterpart and I think that that’s what you’re seeing nowadays, Dawn is you’re seeing a more favorable or unfavorable tendency when there’s inflammation to be inflamed, right. Are you seeing that as well, I mean, well has ever been?
Don Moxley: That’s what we’re talking about. I mean, so that arachidonic acid pathways coming from omega sixes and listen are inflammatory pathways are critical for success. They’re critical to life. Okay, you know, if there’s an assault on a cell, either from an infection or from a virus or physical damage, you need those cells to go into an inflammatory process, they swell up, they get heat, there’s temperature, they try to kill any internal bodies.
The problem is we have so many Omega sixes in our system, that we overproduce Omega six arachidonic acids, we have so few omega threes in our system, omega threes are typically driving the resolving pathways of inflammation, it’s the same enzymes. So when you take an NSAID, when you take an Advil or something like that, it’s interfering with the Cox two enzyme, which is lowering that that inflammation pathway from arachidonic acid via Omega six, but at the same time, it’s interfering that same Cox two pathway has to turn the omega three fats into the resolvins.
So, you know, listen, we know there’s pain, we know people are using NSAIDs, by getting the s PMS into the product with the Omega threes, all we’re doing is we’re boosting that resolve inside of the inflammatory pathway, which is going to yield an HRV response.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, you know, it’s, it’s, you can also promote it, are you promoting it as a pain reducer as well? I mean, it could help produce. Yeah,
Don Moxley: Yes. The FDA would probably frown on that. So no, it’s a tool designed to raise HRV what we’re finding with our early studies is this you can’t fix HRV unless you fix sleep. Okay? If I don’t care what you do for the rest of your life if your sleep is broken HRV is hard to fix it’s critical. So one of the this has been one of the byproducts I frankly I didn’t expect this when we designed the product it’s you know it’s uh you know, listen even blind squirrel trips over and not every once in a while, and we kind of done that here.
But with the sleep that has come with this product we have been thrilled to death. And you know, Joel, it makes sense. If I want to raise HRV I have to get sleep fixed after no two ways about it. And then you add in the other things, you add in the other nutrients, you add in exercise, you add in quality, light, all those things that come with longevity and performance. And we get resolution of the inflammatory pathways, which is going to increase and lead to a parasympathetic tone, which is going to raise HRV
Dr. Joel Rosen: Have you looked at the stacking of which the sperm are dying to see if there’s like a study between? No, that’d be the thing to know. Right?
Don Moxley: I agree with you. I listen, there’s a lot of these things that again, the last time we spoke, we refer are in the sperm are dying as a calorie restriction mimetic in the, in the line of resveratrol and metformin and rapamycin? Well, now we’re looking at sperm nine as a key molecule. Okay? Again, I’m sure if you took a sperm iodine knockout mouse and you gave them Rapa myosin, there may not be a toffee G there because sperm nine is not in the system. So, you know, if you’re using rapamycin or if you’re using resveratrol, or if you’re using Metformin, in the absence of sperm, iodine autophagy is not improved.
And, again, that improved a tapa G is going to lower inflammation, it’s going to there’s going to be an improved, there’s going to be an improved HRV response just from that. But we’re coming, we’re coming back with the HRV plus as another tool to put in your toolbox to deal with this, the fact that we live in aquariums, we do not have us, the environments that we live in, are not consistent with the evolutionary pathway we took to get here. So part of what we have to do is we need to make sure we’ve got those key nutrients available so that we’re able to deal with the stress that comes with life.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Absolutely. So as far as just a nice perk and plug to the longevity Labs is at no further investment. Did I get an increase of the reformulation of the higher potency in the sperm a dime, so maybe get a little idea as to why that came through?
Don Moxley: Yeah, we’re excited about that. So again, we’re always innovating. This is important for us. So what we’ve learned when we first started selling sperm and iron life, we sold it in a one-milligram dose. So two tablets, one milligram. That’s the reason we did that. That’s what the European Union told us we could sell. Along the way we’ve been, we’ve done more studies to show that it’s a safe supplement. We’ve done safety studies, the 20 milligrams a day.
European Union has approved us to sell up to 12 milligrams a day in products. Now, we don’t have anybody asking us for 12 milligrams, we do have people asking us for six milligrams. So we have a six-milligram spermidine Life product. You can buy 10 Day versions of that online, or through a physician, we sell 30 days because we think to Listen, that’s a big step up we need, we want to make sure there’s a healthcare professional in the middle of that decision.
But more importantly, we are a technology for extracting sperm iodine from wheat germ into what we call our cell vo product. So cell Vo is not just spermidine by itself. Right now if you go to if you go online and search sperm nine, you’ll see a lot of very high-dose sperm and egg products online. The problem is most of those products are synthetic experiments, which have never been tested in humans hasn’t been done. When you’re working with sperm and iron life, this cell vo product not only has the sperm Undine that’s in it that we talk about.
But the other polyamides are there too putrescine spermidine. They’re all there and they all work in concert. As well as we’ve improved our ability to extract cell vo we’ve been able to refine it more. So now we can get one milligram of sperm and iron-rich cell vo extract into one capsule. So our product went from one milligram-a-day dose to a two milligram-a-day dose.
So if you buy spermidine, now, it’s going to be a two-milligram per day dose. So we’ve been able to double the dosage, we’ve got some other stuff coming to so we have the six-milligram products available. We’re going to have some others coming along. So we’re constantly working to lower the cost of our product and improve lower the cost of our products and improve the concentration that you get as we move through.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And I think when you and I talked that one of the lectures you are giving you are saying to like just sort of try a little bit at a higher dose for sleep. So I’m imagining that the higher concentration and the six milligrams coupled with HRV plus I mean, are you seeing those?
Don Moxley: We haven’t gotten there yet. We haven’t gotten there yet. Yeah,
Dr. Joel Rosen: it’s interesting. You know, I mean, listen, it sounds like it makes sense from my point of view when I work with people that are exhausted and burnt out. And they’re there you know, cell danger is deciding what’s most important for survival for short-term survival and not concerned about the long term. Circadian rhythms are upside down, hormones are imbalanced insulin is driving up mTOR they’re not able to get into Tov G, and they’re inflamed. And obviously, their HRV their parents, their sympathetic tone is, is dominating and they’re wired and tired and they’re not sleeping, right? So, being able to unpack all of that is the goal for I think providers, and nutrition formulators alike.
Don Moxley: And listen, what we’ve learned is that from a sperm iodine standpoint, and a toffee G, there’s not enough sperm iodine in the diets of Americans with the food that we consume, to support the level of autophagy that we need. That’s pretty clear. We expect suburbanites to eventually achieve vitamin status as an essential nutrient. So, you know, listen, this is one of the byproducts of industrial farming, the nutrients kind of drop out on those, we get a lot of plants, we get a lot of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates.
But we don’t get the micronutrients and spermidine is just turned out to be one of those micronutrients, that’s critical, that’s not in our industrial-produced food source. So you have to supplement it. And at the same time, when we look at the environment, are we getting effective levels of these molecules that support the stress of our autonomic system?
And again, what we’ve learned is that cannabis produces this wonderful molecule CBD the acid form of it. CBD is also good, it does some things, you know, it does some very positive things, but you gotta get the dosage higher than most people are consuming it. And then you roll that in with the beta-caryophyllene, which is a dietary cannabinoid, which has which enhances a whole nother set of receptors.
It’s been a great combination and gives you the ability to get into the fight, you know, and again, it’s a, we use the term fight, which is probably not the right word because the fight would be sympathetic. But the process of trying to get control of your autonomic nervous system, get control of your lifestyle, so that you’re able to get parasympathetic tone, you’re able to balance sympathetic versus parasympathetic, you’re able to work your way through the cycle. These are all valuable tools. Yeah,
Dr. Joel Rosen: just curious, as an aside, have you listened to polyvagal theory or read the polyvagal theory book?
Don Moxley: I have not read that one yet. But every time you and I talk, I wind up with a new book on my shelf. So
Dr. Joel Rosen: read that one I’ve just finished I just finishing it now. And it talks about basically polyvagal, three branches. So they have the unmyelinated, primitive reptilian below the diaphragm part of the vagus, and they have the myelinated above the diaphragm. And then, of course, they have the sensory which is 80%. Right. So it talks about how, if you think of it from an evolutionary standpoint, with the reptilian unmyelinated motor below the diaphragm, this was mostly mainly for fainting, feigning, or avoidance.
And then the next one in the hierarchical range was sympathetic, which was to, you know, fight or flee and get out of the way. But then the more mammalian one, which is myelinated, above the diaphragm, was more to once you felt safe, and you can regulate the sympathetic, that was allowing you to have community bonding because my Malians we thrive in connection and purpose and interesting, which is a good segue in terms of I think it you can’t just think of it as checks and balance like autonomic sympathetic, parasympathetic.
Yes, you can, but thinking of it in terms of that hierarchy, Don, I think that for people that would take this product and want to improve their sleep, and want to improve their HRV I think a lot of it on its own, like you can’t just you have to think still, like you said, right. But I think a lot of it also comes down to you know, relationships and having your creature comforts and having your infrared behind you and your saunas and being with your wife and being community and feeling safe. I don’t know how much that’s educated on longevity lat labs, you know, I guess, modus operandi.
Don Moxley: It hasn’t been but what’s been interesting for him, and this is a story I’ve told before, I think I’ve told him on your show, but when I was with the wrestling team at Ohio State, I walked into practice one day, and one of my wrestlers this kid’s a multiple time all American should have been a national champion, but during the COVID he was number one ranked guy here when they canceled national, so top-level wrestler and he said Coach Moxley said, he said, What would video games do to my HRV?
And I said, Luke, I said, here’s the problem. I said, your brain doesn’t know if that’s a real gun pointing at you. Or if that’s a fake gun coming at you through the screen, your brain just knows the gun. So he said, I had a hell. What is the, um, there’s a video game, I forget the name of it fortnight? He said I had a hell of a fortnight session. And my sleep was horrible. And I said, there you go, buddy. I said you’re starting to figure this out.
So, you know, I listen. These are the challenges the screens, listen, there are benefits, there are costs and benefits to everything. You know, you and I are using technology to communicate over distances. You know, listen, I would love to be in the room with you down there in Boca. But I can’t be I’m up here in Ohio right now. And we’re using technology to build community and to talk to our tribes.
But, but you know what, when it’s time to go to bed, you got to turn the screens off, you gotta get the blue, down. You’ve got to, you’ve got to anticipate this. And again, when you throw in the micronutrients that are necessary for a toffee G to work for our endocannabinoid system to adjust itself to get a parasympathetic tone. You know what? That’s the good thing?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah. Just a segue to that book, it talks about the difference between playing with people and playing with games, and there is no, like really looking at someone’s face and trying to discern if they’re, you know, friend or foe and help us, you know, bond. And, interestingly, you said that. Also, too, I think like, to your point. It’s not I mean, taking the supplements and having the proper lifestyle, getting your circadian rhythm and trained and not having, you know, major demands and not enough supply. I guess the easy thing to do is get out of the way of nature, right? And give it what it needs and get taken away when it doesn’t.
Don Moxley: Yeah, listen, there’s no pill I can give you to take, that’s going to be able to adjust the effect of playing fortnight from 10 o’clock until two in the morning. Okay, right. Okay, when now there are some times you’ve got to work from 10 o’clock to two in the morning, hopefully, listen, shift workers, we know how difficult it is to be a shift worker, how throwing that circadian off it is, it is so hard to combat the effect of that.
But if you’re not a shift worker, and you have a choice as to whether you play a video game from 10 o’clock to two o’clock, you have to learn to make those choices. And you know, these are this is just part of you owning your life and making those decisions.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, like the I think the art of doctoring has gone out of the window with the time constraints and what insurance pays for and it doesn’t pay for but even in a quick little console with someone and I started asking them what’s going on. It’s not rocket science, that their demand is so high and their supply is so low, it’s not and you need to look in the mirror and decide, okay, what can I start to slowly make some changes that I don’t expect to add another supplement to or a crazy whiz banks dietary approach to and expect to, you know, be a magic wand with I mean, look in the mirror and find out like what you’re doing.
The last thing I’ll say about the polyvagal to Dawn is it is very physiological, almost, it is primitive, and reflexive to have some of these withdraw or freeze or just do a life-saving behavior with major stress or trauma. And it’s not so much the trauma that messes them up. It’s the emotion associated with that Trump trauma or the meaning they put on it, right, what the author was talking about is if you can educate other doctors on not making their behavior wrong like it wasn’t wrong of you to faint or just to go with it or let yourself be traumatized.
Because that was what your body inherently did to save itself to preserve its life and you need to celebrate that and not put an emotional attachment to it. And then that way you can start. You can start from there in terms of getting back integrated and feeling safe instead of feeling what you did was wrong. And I think I mean, it’s just a little side note on On sympathetic, parasympathetic, you know.
Don Moxley: I absolutely agree with that. And I use an analogy from time to time. If you’re born in a rattlesnake pit, the only way you serve you survive is through hypervigilance. That’s, that’s all there is to it. But if I move out of my rattlesnake pit into a field of bunnies, okay? I’m still going to be hyper-vigilant. We know there’s a drop of anandamide in the amygdala, we know that hypervigilance.
And listen, we may not be born in rattlesnake pits, but we create trauma in our lifestyles at a level far beyond whether it’s sexual or poverty or abuse, or physical trauma, trauma, trauma is real, it adjusts you, it adjusts you, your nervous system, it adjusts your autonomics. And, again, this is the difference. You and I may be the same age, we may have similar, you know, similar education, similar behaviors, but based on the trauma that we’ve come through, we have to do things differently, it’ll affect us differently. And again, no judging is less. This is one of the cool things I’ve learned.
The top of top three religious orders going on, when we look at Christianity, Judaism, or, or Hinduism, and Muslim. They all reject judgment, you judge, there’s a cost to it. And you have to recognize that. So this is one of the things I love about good religion when it’s practiced. Now, growing up a Southern Baptist, we judge quite pretty well. And frankly, I’ve moved away from my religious practice to a more spiritual practice. You know, I grew up Southern Baptist, and my wife grew up Catholic. So between guilt and judgment, we had them covered. And a big part of what we’ve had to do is move away from some of these religious practices, and focus on our spiritual beliefs. Which means rejecting the judgment. And that’s a big part of it. So I completely agree with you.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean, it’s apropos to what we’re talking about, really, because we’re talking about heart rate variability, and you cannot be dominated by stress hormones and be very adaptive. And that doesn’t come out of the bottle or diet, but it comes out of your thought processes, your emotions, your mindfulness, all of the above. Yeah, great conversation, Don, as far as what’s next, I always like to ask what’s, what’s next for you. Or what little life lessons have you learned since the last time that we talked?
Don Moxley: Well, so what’s next for us as we’re getting this project launched? You know, we’re trying to get our company through Black Friday, you know, so we’re a week, you know, we’re a week out of thanksgiving. So Black Friday’s a week from now, we got to get through that we’re gonna launch mode and method and HRV plus the beginning of December. During that time, I traveled to several conferences and speak and present at a couple of conferences.
So we’re gonna get this launch. But at the same time, I’m starting to research other terpene-based therapeutic properties, you know, so we’re working with some other companies. We’re working with other formulators to look at, okay, what can we do to improve the human experience?
Again, I’ve talked about this before, I have a personal mission of helping individuals understand change, that leads to the reduction of suffering, and the promotion and the betterment of, well, people, that’s kind of what I do daily. So, you know, a big part of this, you know, understanding when when when Daniel deeds called me two and a half years, almost three years ago and said, What do you know about a toffee G? And I said, I have a passive understanding about he said, What do you know about sperm and I’m, like, never heard of it. So you know, doing that dive into sperm iodine and understanding it at a molecular level and partnering with a company that uses such great science.
One of the things I love is that we do have some competition out there in the market, some of it legitimate, some of it illegitimate, but they all mentioned our research. You know, it’s our research that’s driving this. And so I that’s an exciting place to be, you know, we’re launching mode and method we’re taking what has been kind of a life’s adventure.
It’s a life’s adventure for me, you know, being in sports science, understanding HRV being able to apply it moving into cannabis getting a good education on cannabinoids and terpenes and the endocannabinoid system, how it works, and now being with a nutritional company to bring a product to market. It has been wonderful for me. I mean, I mean, how does it get? How does it get better than that? So we’re going to continue that. And, you know, if I showed you my desk, it’s a mess because it’s covered with different things that we’re trying to figure out. And that’s what I get to do.
Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I appreciate your help. I think I have an intro in terms of a suggestion for maybe research design, which we could talk about afterward, but always grateful. And it’s the mode method, that internet site, but it’s the mode and method, the company, is that correct? It’s
Don Moxley: Mode and method. The website is mode method.com. Mode method.com.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right.
Don Moxley: I’m not sure if we got and or not, but the mode method does not will certainly get you there. And again, fill it in, we’re going to do some research projects. So we’re working with a group called Heads Up health, which can aggregate wearable data. So we have at least two research studies. And I don’t know if there’s a guy by name of Joel Jamison out there, that’s a real Silverback in the HRV space.
Joel and I when we were up in Northwest Washington, Joel and I got together for lunch. Joel is a pilot. And then we went to lunch, he said meet me at this airport, and he flies in his helicopter, we can his helicopter and fly over to another airport. So that was certainly interesting. But working with people like that, it’s just been it’s been pretty cool.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Now it’s great, it’s great to see the field of longevity and health optimization advanced and use more natural things that were once tabooed. At some point, now we see that they aren’t so bad. So we’ll think about part four, which is part three. So we’ll think about Part Four at another time. But thanks. And then I’ll give the listeners my code so that when they go into that site, they’ll be able to I’ll put that in the show notes and wish you and your wife and your family the most success going forward.
Don Moxley: Thanks. And if people have questions, if you go to the website, there’s a section there where you can ask questions. You can get a hold of me. So as we work our way through this, we’re pretty available. So if you have questions or things like that, you know, reach out to us. Let us know.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. All right, Don, you have a great rest of your day.
Don Moxley: Thanks. So we’ll see you soon.
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Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright Hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly and I’m joined by repeat guests, Robby Besner.
He is the Chief Science Officer, device developer, and co-founder of Thermosash, a premier infrared healing product and recognized as a world leader in infrared technology. He is also a prestigious Hippocrates, Health Institute, educational committee member, and a presenter at many, many medical integrative and anti-aging health conferences.
And I’m just so excited I can go on and on Robby, but I only have a couple of short moments to get as much information as we can. And we want to start the interview and get into the good stuff. So thanks so much for being here today.
Robby Besner: My goodness, Joel, I love meeting and seeing you again and talking to you about the latest things that we’re doing. And certainly, I appreciate the opportunity to just address our new technology the things that we’re doing and share that with your community.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. I appreciate you being here as well. It’s always a wealth of information. And I like I said I was like the Wizard of Oz. I call you sort of like the guy with the gadgets that it’s always coming up with new innovative technology. And I had a client of mine asked me about your technology and asked me about the EMF harmonizer. And I was like, wait a minute what I don’t even know about this.
So you said you’ve been it’s been in your, in your, in your systems for a while or in your products for a while, but now it’s standalone. So kind of give us the genesis of why how, what, where, and what it does. So people that are potentially exhausted and burnt out, don’t realize that these things that are in our environment are impacting them, and how you’re able to remediate those things.
Robby Besner: Right? Okay. So just from an educational, pure educational point of view. Um, there are so many different kinds of stressors in our lives. And you know, you being the adrenal ninja and the expert in that category certainly can speak volumes to how epigenetics our environment, different things, how it affects us, and how our bodies manifest it in some kind of physical. Not even necessarily a disease, but certainly some kind of health challenge symptom of sore.
We’ve got this animal out there that is in our room, it’s a 500-pound elephant. It’s these exogenous frequencies, you can’t smell them, you can’t taste them, you can’t see them, you can’t hear them. Yet, it’s another big stressor out there. And as we’re seeing deeper into research, particularly with the pandemic and the challenges we’re having, it seems like microorganisms, that would be Candida parasites mold, that whole category, they get activated by these exaggerated frequencies, then the man-made frequencies, electromagnetic fields, EMF, and most people know about that if heard the term.
And then there are other culprits. One would be that we’re focusing on now, which is e, l, F, extremely low frequencies, or the kind of the street name for it is dirty electricity, people have heard of that, but they don’t quite know what it is is means. Ultimately, what these frequencies do as all wavelengths, whether it’s light or sound, electric frequencies, magnetic frequencies, they’re wavelengths, and they oscillate, they move in a certain direction.
And they also have certain amplitudes of power. And the problem with that, particularly with mF n LF is that these frequencies and RF, those are radio frequencies, by the way, like 24 gigahertz portable phones, for instance. And we’re talking about Bluetooth or wireless devices, for instance. So all these frequencies oscillate about 80 to 100 times higher than our body frequency, each of us our little body batteries. Every cell in our body is a battery, and, and we have a frequency. In the past, like in the 60s, it was called an R. Now it’s called like, I forget what they call a biofield.
That’s the modern term. But essentially, we have a field of energy that surrounds all of us almost like a safety net. And it allows our body to perceive things in a different way than just sight, sound, and smell, and taste. So this is all good information, there are brains or processes, and most of it is done without us even thinking about it, frankly. So EMF became a category for me because any device that is plugged into a wall will generate a magnetic field and electromagnetic field that uses alternating current, which is the sockets that we have in the US that everybody plugs devices into.
So if Robbie Basner device developer therapist is making healthy devices that help the body heal, and the plugin, like the infrared sauna, or the healing pads and so forth, I’m delivering great technology, but I’m also using electricity to do it. So am I generating an EMF? And what is the impact? How does it impact the integrity of the devices that we’re making in terms of the way our body interprets it and delivers that great, you know, solar energy to the body.
So 20 years ago, when I got on this notion and research, I didn’t think that the cell phone business would get this enormous as in Bluetooth wireless everything and, and, you know, hybrid cars and Tesla battery-operated cars and, and hotspots. I mean, I didn’t think that futuristic or that in that magnitude.
I just knew that inherently, there would be a conflict with our body and man-made frequencies that are outside the realm of nature, in a sense. And so I said, Well, if I’m going to do the best job I’ve been delivering sun energy infrared frequencies in my devices, then Rni sort of getting in my way by delivering it through a system that’s also delivering EMF and the answer there is yes, what conflicted.
So I decided to sort of school myself and develop remediating technology that would take care of the EMF problem. Okay, and most of that is what all the solutions, but not all, but most of the solutions out there, they shield and they block, okay, they shield an EMF or an elf, or they block it. Now, the problem with that is that it’s reactive, meaning they come out with 3g, I dial in my answer my solution for 3g, I get a completely integrated into my devices. As soon as it’s integrated, boom, they come out with 4g, now I got to dial it up, boom, they come out with 5g, and so on.
And, you know, truth be told, we look up at the cell towers, and we think that they’re mostly just maybe three or 5g, but the government, our government, and our armed forces, bless you, God bless you. They’re using seven and 10 g now. So even though those towers, those towers aren’t just 5g, they’re sending out way more powerful frequencies, than what the general public thinks is, is going on, or is going on? Okay, so that being said, I got pretty good at remediating but always bothered me that I was always reacting to something rather than being proactive.
And so one of my latest focuses your what you talk about, you know, I forget what you call me. But you know, the latest technology that I, Willy Wonka Yeah, well, yeah, Willy Wonka. And someone else coined a phrase and said I was the Steve Jobs of infrared. That’s kind of a cool, interesting way to look at it, you know. But the truth is, is that I’m just a regular guy. I’m a scientist, I am very lucky. I’m fortunate that I am dedicated my life and my business acumen to developing these devices.
And I have the wherewithal to keep dialing up my technology don’t have to go to a committee to ask permission to employ research and employ the latest and the greatest of everything that we do. And that’s part of my thing. So, I kept on bothering me and this is over 15 years now that we were effective at shielding and blocking, like most of the other people out there. But it bothered me that we weren’t anticipating or looking forward or doing something proactive. And that’s when I stumbled on a concept called harmonizing.
And if you go to our website, the latest solutions for EMF that we broke out that technology is already integrated into our saunas and our handling pads and the materials that we use, but now we have a standalone product that we call, Thera protect or Thera EMF protect. And essentially, it’s a particular kind of hologram. It’s like a sticker, it looks like a sticker. But it’s a material very particular material that we can imprint certain frequencies.
And a lot of them are earthing frequencies like the earth charge and Safa Geel frequencies and 432 hertz, and so forth, we can, we can record and imprint these frequencies on this little chip, or it’s a chip, but it’s a hologram. And they hold and hold those frequencies and they emanate those frequencies. So if you stick one on your cell phone, or you stick it on your tablet or your laptop, or a device that’s generating EMF, like your network router, for instance, things like that, it will generate a frequency that supports your body field, your safety net. So now it’s kind of like um…
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like the I keto of EMFs, right, I mean, cuz a keto is like using that person’s momentum and their force. Instead of being reactive. You’re using it to go against them. It’s like the keto of emf is really.
Robby Besner: Exactly, exactly well, and well put. Yeah, yeah, Joe. So So the thing about that is that we should know everybody out there should know that the problem with EMF isn’t the EMF itself, it is that it oscillates higher, but it’s that we can’t defend ourselves against it. Our shield isn’t strong enough. So that’s when it becomes a stressor. And when we’re immersed in the intensity of emf, then it collapses our biofield.
And now rather than having a field of energy protecting us, that’s maybe three feet around us. It’s now right on our bodies and If the emf is strong enough and keeps pounding enough, it now becomes another stressor that, again, affects our epigenetics, which could be our real genetics, like our DNA and RNA. Or it could be simply just a stressor just to, you know, kind of squash your immune system so that you become more susceptible to pathogens and, or it could just be that it brings out another genetic proclivity that you may have, that you may never that was recessive that you may never be seen before. But now you’ve got this other stressor, modern stressor, you know, and so I’m loving this harmonization piece.
And the work that we’re doing in this area, because it just goes on, there are so many fruitful frequencies, just like food that we eat that’s organic, that that is so healthy and important for our nutrition. So are these frequencies that are in nature that are all around us. Now we’ve already done that, as a company, we incorporate jade stone and, and different kinds of earth elements in our products. That’s the same idea, these stones, and these natural earth elements, generate frequencies that are very common, and important for our bodies to be healthy, but we don’t get them anymore, we’re starved from them. Because we’re modern, we wear shoes, we don’t touch the earth anymore.
I know you’re different because I see you out walking every day. And I know that you’re wearing sneakers. So even though you’re walking, you’re not touching the earth, the soul of that Rubber Soul is insulating you. So even though you’re close to the earth, you’re not grounded, as if you would be if you were barefoot, walking in the sand or just going on your lawn in front, or maybe even hugging a tree, it sounds funny. But that tree is planted into the ground, those roots are grounded.
And when you have that tree, you bring that Earth charge into you. And that balances your body battery. And it fortifies that field around you. And so what we’ve done is taken a page out of nature’s playbook. We’ve loaded up between 102 100 frequencies on these little chips. And then we make it as we do with all of our other devices and products and make it affordable so that people can get them to use them and create a healthy and happy environment for there for them to thrive in. So I know it’s a long-winded backdrop, but that’s kind of like what brought me the Genesis to where we are now on this topic.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s awesome information. There are so many angles we can go I’ll just sort of add from what I do Robbie is you know, I help people that are exhausted and burnt out and the term Adrenal Fatigue is not accepted. So then they go back and they call it an HPA axis dysfunction. And I’ve even told you, as you know that it goes deeper than that it impacts the ability of the cells just to produce energy at the cellular level. So you could look at it as mitochondrial fatigue. But as we unravel the science, we know that mast cells are activated from the environment.
And EMFs is such a thing that activate the mast cells and mast cells produce free radicals, like superoxide and hydrogen peroxide and histamines and cytokines. And all of those things will damage the DNA. And it’s really weird. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like physics is like the redheaded stepchild when it comes to health practices because we all understand biology and chemistry.
But when you start talking about frequencies and wavelengths, you start getting kind of woo-woo with people that don’t understand it, but you’re not because it’s a branch of the sciences. Right? So yeah, as far as I’m curious, what how, how far like, what’s the like if you What’s the coverage point of how those harmonizers work if you have them in your home? Yeah.
Robby Besner: Well, we make a few different applications. So the ones that stick on your phones and sell tablets and laptops and so forth, they’re generally three meters around, basically nine feet around you over and you know, in front and behind and so forth. We do make what we call a home harmonizer which uses three of these holograms. And that goes on what looks like a nightlight and you plug that into the wall and it generates a signal 2500 feet. So but it is a single plane signal meaning that if you have a split level, you’d have to get one on the second level, it’ll go on one plane 2500 feet, but not upstairs or downstairs.
So of course you could always unplug it and move it if you want. Now, it not only sends out that signal that reinforces all living. That’s dogs, plants, people, little people, everybody But it also cleans the electricity that’s on the power line that’s feeding that socket. So that will influence the dirty electricity that might be coming from a different appliance that might be plugged into that same, same socket. So same principle, it’s all about fortifying our bodies and our fields so that we can protect ourselves the way nature and deliver created, you know, how it was created for us to work?
Dr. Joel Rosen: How do you determine the different frequencies? Do you have a setting on there to switch? Or what.
Robby Besner: That’s me. And, in my research, I’ve I have locked on and identified, what are the important frequencies that create a sustainable life system? And that’s what we’re implying.
Dr. Joel Rosen: You have three different frequencies or hundreds of different frequencies.
Robby Besner: No hundreds, there are hundreds, it takes more than two weeks to program these chips.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s a chip in there that gets programmed and it admits simultaneously all these different frequencies. That’s correct. Gotcha. That’s awesome. That’s cool stuff. I’m like, Okay, I gotta get one. So that’s cool. But what I like about that, too, is that you know, we’ve had a couple of interviews in the past, which I’ll send links for people to listen to in terms of infrared. And, and the frequencies and why that’s so important.
And so many people do have that concern as you said, and as a conscientious producer, that you want to make sure that your product is not having five pluses and four negatives, right? You want to have a net plus, and I love the concept of Well, how do we not block or shield but how do we, I keto the thing so that we work with it are a lot of other info.
I mean, I look at it as you you’re not worried about competition because you can innovate faster than they can copy, right? Which is kind of cool. But are there other technologies and infrareds that are employing these remedial devices or blocking devices or not even things that harmonize at all?
Robby Besner: I don’t know of any other device developer that is harmonizing today to date. Gotcha. And frankly, we started this research, basically almost about three years ago. But I started jamming on it two years ago in terms of creating a production model that I could do integrate. And, like normal for Thermosash. We often employ incorporate upgrade our technology without up charging without doing anything like well, we do it because it’s the right thing to do, Dr. Joe and, and frankly, sometimes it takes us a year or so or more before we collect enough upgrades where we feel it needs to impact the cost of our goods, we want to keep our cost of goods very low to the consumer, their costs. So so as it is with this, we’ve been sticking we’ve been using these stickers, we’ve been integrating imprinting and these frequencies now for almost two years, the breakout of just the individual product is relatively new within the last year, year, year and a half or so.
And it’s important. We do have other people in the infrared sauna business that we were doing honestly I’m being humble about this, we were one of the first on the block 15 or 18 years ago to identify EMF as being a problem. And and and even though we got a lot of pushback from the medical community and healthcare community, what is an EMF I’m not bothering with that I just I have my cell phones, I don’t care, you know, it’s a problem. And now it’s becoming more important for people that people are noticing.
And so that’s part of my challenge because I’m forward-thinking and because I when I developed the EMF stuff 2015 to 20 years ago, I was what I thought was five to seven years ahead of my time and that’s the way I see this. This frequency how harmonizing technology, because we can prove it in science I can show with HRV with blood like blood, someone else’s I can do kinesiology, there are a lot of ways for me to show you that when you have one of my holograms one of my EMF devices, protection devices on you, it will build your field and make you stronger. We can do that. And we have done that. We did what was very close to a clinical trial or our IRB where we recruited you to know 11 to 12 practitioners 15 patient’s bed 150 to 175.
Participants, and we showed that our technology can improve the body strength in the body field, we’ve proved proven that. So, so but because it’s not quite mainstream, certainly five years ago, it was less mainstream. This is quantum physics. Not everybody’s read, the public isn’t truly ready for it yet, you know. And so I just do it because it’s the right thing. And then we start educating slowly as through different kinds of interviews like today and slowly get people to become aware of that these forces in nature exist, that you can harness them, and you can bring them around you, just as they have with the negative sides of things, we can also bring positive things around you, you just have to be aware that they exist, understand how you can get them. And then, of course, ask the right questions as you are today.
And then eventually make a choice, and then just see how, how it affects you and your family. And, and it’s important, like another great example, the new mother, she brings her child home, the child’s two days old, right? She can’t wait to get into her jeans, the first thing she buys is one of these wireless devices, that’s a camera and a microphone on the child and then a remote camera or screen, and, you know, a speaker so that they can see and hear their child’s sleeping or if they need attention. Well, that’s an RF signal.
This child’s brain has not even formed yet the connected dots, the neural pathways, they’re still forming up until the age of 18, or 20. Now, don’t you think that all of these exogenous frequencies that don’t belong in that room with that baby, which is part of that, and I’m not saying this, I’m not critical, I’m not coming from a place of judgment? If you’re a new mother, and you’re listening, and you have one of those devices, I’m not saying that you’re a bad person, I’m just saying you probably don’t even understand what those frequencies might be doing to your child.
And if you didn’t know, you might think twice about actually having that device that closes to your child, because it’s not going to help in any way. It probably goes in the other direction. So so these are common things, because the companies that make cell phones, the companies that make all these devices, don’t give a hoot about your health. They’re just looking at that. The faster streaming the faster gaming, the faster this the faster that right. And truth be told the two committees that that opine that regulates is the FTC, the Trade Commission, and the FCC, the communication commission, those that those are the companies or the Commission’s that are government regulated, that determined what frequencies can go in these devices. Guess how many people are health-minded, that sit on the board of those companies, or those committees that make those decisions? And that they are none? right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. There are no because they’re not concerned about your health. And that’s unfortunate. But I am concerned about your health, your health, and so are you. And everybody out there should be concerned about their health and take responsibility for their health. So if you’re using a cell phone, or you’re driving a Tesla, that’s wonderful, I applaud you. But do it responsibly and understand that some negative effects may happen, which is part of our discussion today. And then take action as to the simple things and affordable things that you can do to fix it.
Dr. Joel Rosen: So in the Tesla, you would use the nine-foot or the three-foot radius for the Tesla for that.
Robby Besner: Yeah, but we put it depending on which one we probably have one or two of them, you know, in two different locations.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? So let me ask you this because it all leads to a very slippery slope. I know it does. And I know like, ignorance sometimes is bliss for people to not want to know about these things. But also, knowing the information being a concern, the conscientious person can be like, almost like anxiety-producing, right? Because to know, like, not even five g like seven G is being emitted from these towers. Like I think about the weapons that they’ve used that I used to see on 60 minutes where they showed how like you can throw a frequency into a crowd and cause them to disperse. That’s a pretty good idea of what frequencies can do to your body, let alone What about? Yeah.
Robby Besner: What about the heart program? What about all these weather devices, they’re shooting frequencies into our atmosphere and changing our weather. I mean, that’s how powerful these frequencies are, in terms of a force of nature, being a force of nature.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, how I mean, so I mean, again, I don’t want to go too down this rabbit hole. But I guess, how does it How were you able to deal with the hypocrisy and the lack of caring, and most importantly, the greed of wanting to make gazillions of dollars at risk of our health? And at the same time, you know, but pointing your finger at other things that, you know, you’re kind of wagging the tail kind of thing? Like, how do you deal with that I just as a personal friend, like?
Robby Besner: I don’t Yeah, I honestly don’t focus on things, I have no control over Jill. So, why get frustrated about a government agency or a failed community or failed healthcare system, you know, work on the solutions to all these, because that affects you and I and our families day to day every day. And so that’s what I that’s where I stay centered.
And it’s really easy. When you immerse for me anyway, when I dive deep into my research and my development and then creating the collateral materials to help people understand how important this work is. You know, that’s, I’m not distracted by any of that. In terms of for my world, that’s all noise. And I just blocked that noise out and stay focused, laser-focused on the things that I feel are important.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, like the Gandia frequency, right? I mean, at the end of the day, like, but you know what I would say, though, Robbie, let me ask you this. So talking about the studies, and I and I know in terms of Okay, explain to the user, or the listener here, like the statistically significant findings of being able to track and baseline someone’s stress response in way of HRV.
The lower it is, the more you’re under sympathetic dominance, the higher it is your parasympathetic system is, is improving, and you’re not under stress. And that’s the outcome you’re looking for in terms of if you start with a theory, and you’re able to measure a and then measure an again, and give something as a stimulus to see what changes a and if it gets better, it’s improving. If it gets worse, it’s not what actually what did you guys discover with what you with some of the products that you have?
Robby Besner: Well, the studies were published, and I’m happy to give you the link. So you can forward that on Oh, perfect, okay. So, you know, I took a very, very straightforward clinical approach to the study. So we set up all the rules, and some of them you just identified, so we have a baseline, how you are coming in for the day. And then we introduced the stressor, which was in this case, an EMF stressor, then we do another HRV, heart rate variability, and like you mentioned, but in lay terms, we’re measuring the way that your heart reacts to stimulus.
So for people out there that don’t know about heart rate variability, imagine like if you know, you were in a jungle, or you were just camping, and all of a sudden, a big animal came up, you know, close to you, your heart would just basically come out of your chest because you were nervous and scared. That’s called fight and fight or flight. So you’re either going to fight that animal, or you’re going to run as fast as you can in the other direction, right. That’s what we call sympathetic or sympathetic dominance. And, and in today’s world, we have that stress, just with, you know, what’s going on with the pandemic, and just our normal lifestyle. China, life lives these days trying to survive, right?
So we’re all feeling that in one way or another. And the longer you stay in that, that mode of being at the edge of your seat being anxious, the brain starts to say, like any chronic ailment, maybe this is the way you’re supposed to be for the rest of your life. But we all know it’s not right. And so, there’s a variance of the time it takes for your heart to go from an excited state to a calm state. And that’s what we’re measuring. So a healthy heart, a healthy autonomic nervous system will easily and quickly transition from being excited to being calm, and that’s when you’d get a higher HRV score.
And generally, that’s a younger person. The older you get, the slower it is for your heart to like, readjust back. And so that that we vote for a little bit lower score, because we have developed proprietary heart rate variability, technology and we use that to measure all of our devices to make sure that they are meeting our specifications. We were able to employ that, that system in analyzing EMF with this particular device that we were looking at.
So we measure your first bass level like coming through the door, we introduced the stress, which is the EMF, we take another measurement, we measure the difference between your normal state Coming in, and you’re excited state from the EMF. And so generally speaking, and about 96% of the time, that EMF caused your body physiology to actually decline greatly, and in some cases between 25 and 30%. So you had less power, you had less life, you had less vitality, okay?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Because more sympathetically driven, right meaning like you were in that sympathetic stress, not so much less, but you were ramped up, but there was less variance between your beat beats and you were more your vitality was impacted.
Robby Besner: Right? Another way to look at it is you just have so much energy in a given day. And the body in the brain, what it does is it kind of like the that’s like the command module where it takes that energy and decides to parcel it out to the areas that your body needs, the most of. So maybe 30% of that energy that every day when you wake up, is, is used for general just for body functions, breathing, thinking, eating, drinking, whatever things you don’t think about. And I know we’re running kind of short on time. So let’s be let’s, let’s get down to that.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Love that love the information.
Robby Besner: So. So what does the brain do with the rest of it? Well, if you’re sick, it’s sending an army of energy to try to get you better if you just injured yourself with an acute injury is sending an army of energy to fix your elbow, wherever you hurt yourself. So so when I talk about vitality and total power, and it’s diminishing by 30%, that’s that free energy that should normally be there so that you can run faster, jump higher, you know, be happy, like just be present, stuff like that.
Now that energy is being diverted, try to maintain homeostasis, which is a sort of equilibrium in your body energetically, to fight off the effects of this EMF and these exogenous frequencies around you. That’s the culprit. Because if you run out of resources, you run out of total energy, what happens to your field, it starts to collapse, because you can’t, you don’t have enough energy to keep it out there and to keep away all these frequencies that are hurting, you know, anyway.
I think it’s super important that people become more aware of this, we’ve developed technology that you can slap on a device to remediate. But truth be told, kick off your shoes and walk in the sand, kick off your shoes, and walk on the beach, or be sorry, on your front lawn, and hug an oak tree and all that stuff and just get connected to earth in nature.
Again, that’s the true, natural way to fix this. We’ve just modernized it and put it in ways that we can kind of fix our devices and patch up the areas of our lifestyles, modern lifestyles that are affecting us on a healthy way, in a healthy way for our health, it affects our health. So we can still have the comfort of all those devices without affecting our health. And that’s really what our endgame is here.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I mean, I love your the way you use the analogy, and I mean, hon Sally a call that adaptive energy. And ultimately you’re talking about metabolic reserves, and you have a certain amount of metabolic reserve for a given day. And ultimately, you don’t want to spend it fleeing from tigers are fleeing from EMFs. So to you know, finish off that study when you would then see the baseline go down or that adaptive.
Robby Besner: Then running with them, bring the EMF solution, stick it on the person’s body, then take another scan, and 97% of the people came back to their original strength. So they gain back that 30%. And then, about 35% of the there was 2%, as a very small amount of people that it just barely made it to get them back to normal. But most often, it enhanced their body strength by somewhere around 20 to 25%.
So they swung back almost 50% from their low, which was the negative effects of the EMF, how it affected them. And that was pretty significant. The statistician that we hired take all the data and put it into a formidable essay. Couldn’t believe the results. And they were they, they were some of them were so you know, two 300% difference was so strong that I said.
This is incredible people are not going to believe the study you know and so let’s knock those numbers out because they’re just too high and he said you know rowdy you the good the bad the ugly you can’t knock anything out it is what it is. So we reported as we were supposed to all the results and they really what was truly amazing.
Dr. Joel Rosen: And that was the pendant correct? Yeah, that was a pendant. Okay. Awesome. I mean, listen, I love talking this with this stuff with you. What I always like I gotta have some kind of insider secret privileges. What’s with you know, like, because we’re just you and I talking? Who else is listening? What else do you have coming down the pike? I’m always interested to know in terms of r&d, what’s going on? What’s new and upcoming for you guys?
Robby Besner: Well, as you probably know, we’ve developed a specialized light LED light-emitting device or diode, and it goes into trying light, the name of its try light because we have three distinct frequencies and every diode which is something unique. from an engineering point of view. Generally, LCDs are monochromatic, which means there’s a single frequency assigned to each bulb, we have three frequencies in every bulb.
So we are three times more light energy emitting than most other diodes, I’d say close to all the other times on the market. And that’s what’s important because we’re looking as infrared specialists, we’re looking to get these special frequencies into our body. So the more and the more intense we can send those frequencies in, the more it’s going to help us on a cellular level and so important.
The latest edition of the trying light is a cap that you wear that helps with both training, traumatic brain injury, TBI, and any neuro plasmic. differentials. And it also helps with regrowing hair. So that’s our latest Opus on that on that.
Dr. Joel Rosen: That highlights they go into the infrared are those were Yeah, okay. That’s awesome.
Robby Besner: Now you’ve got the scope before anybody because I’m not gonna tell us to talk about it.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. You know, what we got to have prevalent membership has to have its privileges, right? I mean, at the end of the day, so that’s always awesome. Hey, listen, I mean, I’m gonna switch up I usually ask a different question. I usually ask Hey, what would you tell the younger Robby that you didn’t know then that you know now, but I would say what’s most surprising to you in the evolution of Robbie and where you’ve started with and where you are now?
And you know, kind of like had this like what would be the biggest surprise in terms of if you look around and like kind of take a look at where you are now whereas where maybe you thought you would have been whether mentally physically spiritually what would you say the biggest surprises for you there.
Robby Besner: You know, I wake up every morning feeling blessed that I’ve been given a new breath and the opportunity to use my resources, my brain, my intuition, and how I’m guided by my surrounded by the voices in my head, my guidances I am amazed. And I’m blessed to have the ability to connect to my higher power and to use that information in the development of the things that that I make. And I do and that I’m gifted and I can bring it into your home, that’s going to make a difference to you and your family.
To allow you guys to live the life that you’re supposed to live the find your purpose find your bliss, and be able to live that in a healthy manner. Contrary to everything else that’s around us these days, a broken healthcare system, challenges with the economy, like all these other things that are going on, is, I think are things that are preventing us from actually finding our bliss.
Because we’re so concerned with so nervous, we’re so this was so that, right? So we’ve lost focus on the real game. Okay, in my mind. Anyway, um, the younger Robbie always communicated with this higher power but didn’t always listen. And in my 30s, I decided that the higher power is smarter than me. So it’s time to start to listen to what they’re saying, not just listen like its chatter. And so I put that to the test.
And I do it every day. I’m constantly interviewing and asking myself is this right and getting downloads that tell me I’m on the right track. And you know what, then the world keeps turning and creating new opportunities and creating new ways to keep dialing up what we do?
Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome man, I think what’s great is I think you’ve used frequencies, proactively to help other people, but also to help you help other people too. So that’s awesome. Hey, Robbie, I always appreciate these interviews, what I’ll do is I’ll have links to be able to, how to see how to get these products into their own homes. And I always look forward to our next conversation. So I wish you and melody the best in the future. And I look forward to hearing about all the great things that you’re doing.
Robby Besner: Thank you, thank you again for having me. And you know, we should do a special offering or a bundle or something for your community so that they get incentivized not just to listen in and hear more, but also maybe take a try at some of the things that we’re doing and bring it into their houses and experience the stuff that we’re about. Yeah, well,
Dr. Joel Rosen
what do you I mean, we could talk off-air, do you want to kind of just throw something out there like a special bundle or not? What do you want?
Robby Besner: Yeah, it’s not my area.
Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s okay, we’ll figure it out. Once we figure out what the special bundle is, then I’ll post it on my socials, and then people will be able to get access to that.
Robby Besner: Totally. That’s just the way to do it. Awesome. Thanks, Robbie. My pleasure, great hat. It’s great being here today and appreciate being here.
The post How To Harmonize EMF’s Impact On Your Body appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: All right, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined with a repeat guest, part two, we had just had a conversation at the end of June and we will send the link for that interview. But we’re here with Brandon Vermeire, who is the Chief Scientific Officer and CEO of metabolic solutions, Institute for functional health and fitness practitioners.
His goal is to bridge the gap between health coaches and functional medicine practitioners through better education. He’s also a keynote speaker, mental and metabolic researcher, writer, and functional medicine consultant. His background is in fitness and nutrition. And he’s one awesome guy, Grant. Brendan, thank you so much for being here today.
Brendan Vermeire: Thanks for having me. Dr. Joel, the last conversation we had was super fun. My audience loved it. And it was so good. There are so many good nuggets in there, we use some of the recordings and to create like little mini videos, but such a wealth of and I felt like we fed off each other so well. So I’m excited for part two.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I’ve just listened to it again the other day, and I was noticing just all the things that we had in common from personal training and mental health and exercise physiology. But I’m sure you’re not aware of this brand. And where I think the tie that binds us together as we both have experiences in scrubbing toilets for work history in our past.
Brendan Vermeire: Or no, yeah, I mean, he got saved somewhere, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, listen, I mean, listen, I guess if you’re getting down and dirty in that aspect, you got to have some kind of camaraderie with someone else who, who knows what it’s like to do that. So yeah, I mean, So ultimately, we had talked about a lot of different things. We talked about specific adaptations upon oppose demands where if you’ve exercised, you know that you have to go a little bit more than your body’s capable of doing if you go less, you don’t stimulate a response.
If you go too much, you create turmoil, or in this case, pain. And you mentioned how much that is, can be applied to everything in the body. We got into this being disconnected, we got into basically facing your fears and facing the tough stuff. And that’s really what we wanted to talk about today in terms of the inner working, have your why and things that are unresolved.
And it may feel good to do other things that aren’t as challenging if you will, but at the same time, you’re not getting as deep as you need to cut loose of those anchors. So maybe, I don’t know, how do we start from here, given that that’s where we want to go down today?
Brendan Vermeire: You know, that’s a really interesting kind of setting the stage and what just clicked in my head was, I just last night had a little bit of a nightmare. That kind of came out of nowhere. And I have had, I guess, you could say recurring nightmares for the past, like seven years of my life. And they all revolve around what was easily the hardest and most traumatic, you know, the season of my life that was you know, riddled by, you know, manipulative narcissism and mold illness and tons of stress and mental illness and psychiatric drugs, this whole dark season in my life that I guess in some ways, still haunts me to this day.
And that’s where, you know, I do a lot of work around the topics of obviously mental illness, one, in particular, being PTSD, right. And I think there’s a lot more, you know, trauma awareness these days. And I’ll just say right now, I think awareness is a double-edged sword where, okay, well, the first step to healing is awareness. But at the same time, you can’t use awareness as a crutch, and you can’t take on that identity. You don’t want to take on the identity of a traumatized or a mentally ill, like don’t allow it to become your identity.
But you also don’t want to be negligent, of a very real psychological, psychosomatic and physiological dysfunction or illness or disease or whatever you want to call it. So I think there’s, you know, large conversation to be had on the kind of untangling you know, where there’s physiological Science and origins of what’s going on in the body when somebody is stressed, or traumatized or depressed or whatever. And then there’s kind of the psychological side of it as well. And how do you untangle that mess? Because even as much as I like to think that I’m fully healed, healing is an ongoing journey.
I don’t think there’s a start and finish it’s you become more resilient. He learned how to manage your health struggles more effectively. So even just that kind of nightmare last night that came out of nowhere that put me right back into that dark season of my life that during the day, No, I’m good. I’m healed. I’m done with all that that’s in the past, but your body remembers, right. And that’s kind of getting into that PTSD spectrum, or how trauma and negative toxic emotions can get trapped in the tissues, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, yeah, a springboard from there. So we had talked about neuroplasticity, and how I know the way if I bend my finger like this, and I hold it there long enough, and I do this, it’s going to bend back down. And ultimately, that’s what we had started to talk about in terms of neuroplasticity, how can we read repattern or rewire the brain so that they fire together in positive things that are congruent with health and not necessarily negative, and I would agree with you in terms of, on the one hand, you don’t want to be labeled. That’s a big thing.
Like, okay, you want people are looking for the one diagnosis so that they have confidence that they’re not an anomaly or that doctors have seen this before. And they’re not, there’s, it’s not like a weird one-off thing. So they feel great about that. But then, on the other hand, they become labeled by that. And they don’t realize that maybe this is a good step talking point in terms of the relationship between neural plasticity and not realizing that there’s an addictive tolerance, sort of almost automatic loop going on in people that they’re not even aware of.
So maybe talk about that in terms of Hey, you, and especially with stress, people don’t realize from post-traumatic stressors, when the vets come back from crazy experiences, and the suicide rates are so high, it’s because they have it’s like a crackhead stopping crack overnight and not having that titrating down. After all, they don’t realize the brain has plasticized into a way that is so I get so intense. So maybe kind of talk about that. And we can kind of go from there.
Brendan Vermeire: No, you hit the nail on the head there. One of my favorite sayings is that thoughts become proteins, where, you know, classically we say thought thoughts become things, you know, our thoughts in our envisioning become the manifestation of the story of our lives. And so I like to take that one step further to apply more the epigenetics and physiology to it of thoughts become proteins, right?
Our psychological experiences are the stimuli that create the specific adaptations to impose demand to then create our physiology or giving the stimuli to the physiology of how do we adapt our physiology to be better adapted and suited for that stimuli. And so that’s why you know, the finger thing or the working out thing, it’s, that’s exactly what it is.
And so if you apply that into the context of, you know, a traumatic experience, which now it’s more recognize that trauma, just like autism, it’s a spectrum. It’s, it’s not all or nothing, it’s not one or zero, black and white, it is a spectrum of, you know, very severe trauma, like you alluded to, you know, you’re at war man, Afghanistan, and you see your battle buddy get killed, right, it’s extremely traumatic.
And the way I kind of describe it is like a, it’s like a bruise in a physical injury to your nervous system, you know, to your autonomic nervous system to your central nervous system, you just witnessed something that, you know, ideally, no human should ever witness and if you put it into kind of an evolutionary context, it makes sense, right? Like if you’re a baby monkey, and you’re getting too close to you know, the dad monkey who’s hoarding all the food, as male monkeys do, you know, you get a little too close, you’re gonna get slapped, you know, the big monkey is gonna slap that little monkey.
And that’s, that’s traumatic, in a sense, but that’s also that creates the neural adaptation that that little monkey knows to not do that, right. It’s a safety mechanism. So we don’t put ourselves in the same situation that caused us so much danger and pain. So even though PTSD and trauma Uh, in our, you know, kind of neuroplastic response to that trauma, it’s very unpleasant and it can increase, you know, neuro limbic dysregulation, HPA, dysregulation, inflammation, Gene immunosenescence, chronic inflammation, the list goes on mental illness as a side effect of all that, so on and so forth.
But ultimately, it’s still just your body trying to protect you of like, Hey, remember that one time that you were in a situation that was dangerous, and scary and traumatic, let’s be hyper-vigilant to anything that feels reminiscent of that so that we can selfly Preserve. So it is a survival mechanism. But it comes with all these unwanted, you know, side effects that we get triggered, right? Anything that comes close to our trauma trigger points just sends us into a very real kind of autonomic nervous system reaction that is kind of inappropriate, like it, you know, a very inappropriate response to a mild trigger, because it touches those trigger buttons.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great explanation. And you look at that as sort of that limbic center wind up and the neocortex and the difference between the primitive reptilian brain and it’s almost like sort of a blessing in disguise. And you know, ignorance is bliss, I always love the story of the watering hole. And the zebras don’t have ulcers, and, you know, they don’t have a meeting after Hey, like, we need to have like, a sit-down. And every Tuesday, let’s meet over the watering hole to discuss how like you were almost killed and how that made you feel. It’s just like they, you know, don’t have that thought process.
And hence, they don’t have ulcers, you know, because they don’t have that neuroplastic wind-up. As far as we wanted. I wanted to talk to you about the new craze, or it’s not so much new, but in 2019, Dr. SEPA in Napa, or the Silicon Valley talked about dopamine fasting, and for people that we work with that are overwhelmed and in fight or flight, and it impacts their stress response.
And they don’t have motivation and drive. And I think, to one extent, or another brand, and everyone who’s around and can put a thought together in today’s day and age has some spectrum of that, as you mentioned. And ultimately, I guess, what I see is, is that dopamine along with iron dysregulation along with mold, along with EMF along with histamine along with oxalates, we’re seeing in the research how that creates over activation of the mast cells and this whole inflammatory thing. So I think it’s an important topic to talk about, well, what is this dopamine fasting concept? And how can we apply it to be able to take at least one line out of the water?
Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, you know, it’s, I think you did a good job with the zebras and whatnot, because, you know, where are animals? If they go through a traumatic experience, which, you know, animals in the wild, they go through much more traumatic things. And we typically do in our, you know, at times cozy suburb. Now, some people experience very manosphere trauma, whether it’s a car accident, or whatever. So I’m not trying to invalidate anybody’s traumas by any means.
But the difference between humans and animals, we replay it over and over and in our head, we obsess over it, we relive it. And that just becomes our reality. Animals don’t do that now, why are they just don’t have the cerebral function that we do. But we keep reliving it, we keep replaying it keeping ourselves stuck in that sort of trauma-based fear-based fight or flight response and it just eats away at us internally in so you know, with dopamine fasting and everything, we do live in a culture in society that is very addicted to instant gratification.
So I think the collective needs to start looking at their behaviors and their beliefs a little bit more where we’re all very conditioned to, I don’t feel the way I want to feel so I should go talk to my doctor and take this pharmaceutical or I’m going to self medicate with you know street drugs or I’m going to self medicate, self soothe with you know, caffeine and alcohol and cannabis or sex or gambling or, you know, whatever. Or if that’s more kind of like toxic self-soothing behavior, as opposed to more self constructive, like, I’m gonna do a functional medicine protocol.
I’m gonna take some supplements I’m going to work on my sleep hygiene and my stress management and I’m gonna exercise so there are different ways of trying to, you know, give the meat to give the central nervous system, what it needs so that we can feel the way that we want to feel, but I feel like the big thing that people don’t look at are The behaviors, right, they’re much more apt to reach for a pharmaceutical or a drug or a potentially self-destructive, you know, activity or behavior.
Or even let me do all the lab testing and get that silver bullet, you know, supplement protocol. Whereas if we look at more the behavior in the beliefs in the psychology of, you know, what is dopamine associated, it’s associated with instant gratification, whereas delayed gratification, the research shows is associated with a greater serotonin response.
And so it’s not just about giving ourselves the substrate, the material, or the stimuli to induce that neurochemical sensation that we want to experience. We have to take ownership of we can modify our neurochemical experience through our behaviors. And so what I’m getting at is with dopamine, right, you know, Instagram, like, how many likes did I get? How many comments did I get, like, let me post you know, skin pic? So I can get some external affirmation to feed my empty soul. Right?
Whereas delayed gratification gives us more of a serotonin response. So if we want more serotonin, we want to feel happier and loved and Levine Well, maybe if we practice a little bit of discipline and a little bit of delayed gratification, we can amplify our serotonin response, naturally, behavior-wise, rather than, like, let me go get an SSRI or whatever. So I think that’s the overlooked piece.
People just want that pill for an ill or that silver bullet protocol, because they don’t want to change their behaviours. They like their behaviours, they’re addicted to their behaviours. So dopamine fasting is exactly that. It’s kind of having the discipline and self-control to refrain from that just kind of toxic self-indulgent behaviour, right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s great. So it could be switched from not so much. I mean, we’re never gonna eliminate dopamine. And I think when he wrote the article, there was a lot of misinterpretation interpretation in terms of, Okay, if I can not release it as much, I could have a higher high when I do finally release it again. And that wasn’t the point. The point was to be able to manage the unhealthy conditioned, short-term gratification responses that ultimately cut inwards, right, and ultimately keep you in overwhelm, and how to change it from more of instant gratification to delayed gratification.
And that’s where we can go in two angles, the first angle, or the first road I’d like to go forth would be in terms of Okay, well, what are some of the suggestions that we can do to delay those gratifications cuz I know, for me, I know when I get anxious, and I do have a lot of anxiety more than I even realized that I have to figure out, okay, what’s triggering this, and it’s a whole sense of overwhelming.
I’m in the middle of writing a chapter for my book, and then I have 25 things that I want to say, and I’m in one thing, and I’m thinking, Oh, I didn’t talk about this, and I want to talk about that. And then I get that analysis by paralysis, and I want to go on the internet and sir is like, okay, like, identify what’s going on here and just chill out, Joel, you know, why are you doing this?
Like, take a deep breath? Where What’s your problem? Like, you know, figure this out, untangle the the the yarn. So I wanted to get into that. But I also specifically wanted to get into what you just talked about in terms of that unresolved, hurt post traumatic child, and how we, how we identify that which I think the two are kind of related. Right. So what are some tools that we do to switch from an instant gratification person to delayed gratification?
Brendan Vermeire: Oh. You know, when you’re describing yourself as like, are you describing me or yourself or, you know, probably a lot of the listeners, I think, I think we can all resonate and relate without a lot. And again, I mean, I blame a lot of society’s problems on big tech and media and everything, because, like our feeble little monkey minds are not evolved or equipped to handle the overwhelming, never-ending stimuli of the matrix world that we plug into all the time.
And so that I mean, talking about tools, right? unplugging from this chaos right here. You know, this, this is a tool. It’s a double-edged sword. It’s seen your hand in your pocket all day, every day. And for one thing, it’s blasting you with EMF, right, which is why I have the safe sleeve on here. So there’s that EMF conversation. That’s probably a different conversation for another day. But you know, this thing like Instagram, you’re scrolling through your newsfeed It never ends.
There’s no such thing as a bottom to your newsfeed. It will keep feeding you the whole point of social media is to steal your time to collect information. To sell it to big Corp, so then they can promote their product to you. That is what the algorithm is designed to do. You know, its goal is to get you online and keep you online for as much time. So it’s a matter of Do you have the discipline to unplug, right.
And so, you know, I mean, we all live and operate in the virtual world anymore, which is fine. But you know, I’m the virtual entrepreneur. But as soon as we’re done with this conversation, I’m going for a nature walk. And I do that almost every single day because that’s my way of unplugging from the matrix and plugging back into reality, the natural world that we did evolve in.
And so that’s like my best recommendation, like when you’re feeling paralysis by analysis, and overwhelmed and stressed and scattered, and all these things, like, unplugged from the virtual world, go outside, go do some earthing get that sunlight, go for a walk in nature, like taking the stillness, nature is so-called instill in soothing, whereas we psychologically, cognitively, just spin ourselves out of control.
And our brains are being pulled in a million directions all day, every day. And that’s not, it’s not healthy, it’s not sustainable. And, you know, that’s why, like, I think, unplugging and plugging back into the natural world is the single best thing you can do.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Sure, for sure. And I mean, just the fragmentation of the mind. And having so many windows open and running at the same time, ultimately, a computer’s going to run slower, so are we going to run slower. And I like the idea of just, I mean, you know, common sense isn’t so common, but you know, turn off your notifications, or have a hard stop, and a hard start and show that discipline.
So as far as the inner child, and or the things that people put on us that we don’t realize that we still carry that impact, our plasticity and our need for positive reinforcement, or the need for the avoiding of the negative reinforcement, which is the double-edged sword of what social media is, it’s so sinister if you think about it, how these I mean, I know there’s the social experiment, or whatever, I don’t remember what it was, I think that’s what it was called, where they basically can, can polarized world and only give you biased information based on your clicks.
And I don’t think it was premeditated. But it was certainly sinister in the sense that if we know how people learn, and how the reward centers work, we can profit on this by making it more addictive for that purpose. Right. So one of the things that I say, and this would be a good segue to you is what if you can look back at anything that’s happened to you as much as it’s been horrific and unfair and unjust? And it’s not right? Because it isn’t, and you can tell whatever story you want would be justified, but does it serve you in getting healthy and ultimately growing from it?
So one of the things that I’m saying in the new course that I’m producing is the if you can look back at whatever event that’s happened in your life, and look at it was a loving parent, and see that child as an innocent, pure child, but also in terms of explaining to that child that even though you don’t see it, now, this has happened for your highest purpose.
And then that way you reframe the event that happened. And then you’re able to look at all of these trials and tribulations is happening from you to be able to achieve where you want to get to, it’s not happening to you or for you, it’s happening from you, because you needed that obstacle to ultimately have that specific impose, you know, adaptation to the demands that you’re having. But it’s not meant to be smooth sailing. So I don’t know maybe where can you kind of piggyback off of that concept?
Brendan Vermeire: Totally. My friend and client, Dr. Nicola para has done a lot of really, really good work around that. And she calls that re-parenting, you know, the wounded inner child and has popularized that concept. Because obviously, it was a Freudian psychology kind of one on one if going back to the childhood and, you know, now we have a little bit more kind of mechanistic understanding of what’s going on in that individual’s neurology that explains what we’ve been observing psychologically and behaviorally for, you know, decades and decades and decades, right.
So, when we’re born into this world, you know, we’re kind of a blank slate. I mean, not Fully because we could talk about genetics and microbiome and, you know, we are kind of programmed to some degree already, but for the most part, you’re a blank slate and your, your mind is just this very, very, very plastic, malleable, you know, gray matter.
And it’s immediately just taking in all the overwhelming stimuli of reality and trying to make sense of it and trying to, you know, build the architecture of a belief system that allows us to survive, ultimately, and kind of Thrive secondarily to that. And so that’s, you know, Darwinism kind of one on one. But that’s why to like, you do have to go back to the origins of your childhood and your, your domestic caters, and I don’t say domesticate her in a bad way.
But whether it was your parents, or you had, you know, step-parents or foster parents, or you’re raised by your big brother, whoever it was, we have to look at your social interaction and the environments that you were in. And you know, how safe or not safe were those emotional environments were those environments that allowed you to feel heard, seen, loved, understood, respected, cared for, or was a tougher environment where, you know, you had to create false belief systems to, you know, blend in or hide or fit the mold to evade, right? Like, we’re all just creatures of adaptation for the sake of survival.
And so, you know, some people may be had that warm, fuzzy childhood, and other people maybe didn’t. But whatever behavioral patterns are continuing to plague you as an adult, they, yeah, you have to get, you have to pull that thread and get to the origin of where did I learn this behavioral pattern. And like, he makes a lot of sense, where you see how, oh, this behavior and this belief, it served me well back then it allowed me to get through that time in my life.
But this pattern is not this pattern, and belief isn’t serving me anymore. So I need to create new neuro-plastic networks and new neural networks that are by a new behavioral pattern and a new belief system. So that’s really what’s going on. But it is a lot harder as an adult because your brain is much more plastic and malleable as a kid. And you get all these belief systems programmed, and it sculpts your minds. So you kind of get spit out into the world as an adult, and you’re like, Wait for a second, I’m living a life, that’s not my own. Because I’m living in a way that’s my beliefs that are not my own.
They were programmed into me. And I have to deconstruct that programming and create new programming that’s in alignment with who I want to be how I want to show up in the world. How do I want to experience this reality? And it is, it’s harder to break down some of those past behaviors and past neural networks through neuroplasticity, and synaptic trimming, and pruning, which are what microglial cells do, and then build these new neural networks. And that’s, you know, ultimately, this is why with, you know, functional medicine and coaching, when we’re working with patients and clients, ultimately, we’re trying to behavior, change their behaviors, which means we have to change their habits, we have to change their belief system.
And that’s ultimately what we’re doing is trying to coach them through the process of building these new neural networks and your body kind of follows where your mind goes. So that’s why this type of integrative, you know, the psychology and behavior side of it, but also the neuroplastic physiology side of it, you kind of have to put their hand in hand to be able to, you know, what do I need to do to support my brain as it’s changing the way it’s wired, as far as what I nourish it with, but also you still have to take control of your mind.
And that’s where, you know, catching yourself of like, you catch yourself spiraling, spiraling down those toxic belief systems, and you’re just replaying it, reliving it, which just further solidifies that outdated neural network and no, catch yourself, cut yourself off and choose like, No, I’m not going to let myself replay that again. And again, I’m going to choose a new way of looking at this situation, a new response, that’s where in between stimulus and reaction, there’s that moment in between and that’s really where all the power is.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there are lots of lots of power in what you said there. You know, I think the first thing I think of if someone’s watching this, like Well, hey, I don’t have the money to go for years of therapy because it sounds like I need to go for years of therapy and be like I don’t want to so I think it’s really important for people even if they don’t want to at some point you know, universal law, which we talked about last time as a problem does become a crisis.
And you can continue the impossible what they call insanity In a way of doing the same things over and over again and thinking you’re going to get a different result. But what I think is a good segue, though, is what you talked about last time, too, is when you were training clients, and you weren’t so focused and fixated on the the the milestone of what is your new weight you’re more fixated on Okay, is your vo two max improving?
Is your strength improving, because these will be not only new behaviors to get to the new outcome, but these are the things that work that physiologically need to happen? So what are some of the physiological things that need to happen without going through years of therapy to be able to address some of these plastic changes that weren’t healthy and almost forced upon us without our permission?
Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, it’s you know, that, in its essence, is essentially like the story of my career at this point where everything that we’re talking about, it probably does sound maybe a little bit intimidating or daunting of like, Wait, you’re telling me to like reprogram my brain, like, you know, 30 4050 years in where it’s gotten very stuck in that form, right, and you do lose plasticity, as you age, it becomes harder to write, it’s kind of like, if you apply the fitness analogy, if you’ve never been an athlete, you’ve never been physically active, and you’re just becoming physically active for the first time in your life. At the age of 30 4050, it is so much harder to train your body that way.
Now, don’t get me wrong, it’ll still respond, you know, you can’t use that as a crutch of why just better not even try. But it’s a lot harder, your body has become a little bit more rigid and less adaptable. You know, and so that’s where individuals that were athletes growing up, they do have big advantages. They’ve trained their nervous system and their musculoskeletal system, they have those neural networks, right? It’s kind of like learning to ride a bike as a kid is probably a lot easier than trying to learn how to ride a bike as an adult or something. But ultimately, this is why I’m just so passionate about these types of conversations.
Because when you look at you know, the standard American diet and lifestyle and all these kinds of standard American factors that promote chronic disease, comorbidities, mental illness, the list can susceptible to infectious disease, you know, the list goes on and on and on. I think we’re at a point where we have so much toxic psychological stimuli with social media, mainstream media, the polarization, the fear-based propaganda that’s being, you know, forced into our psyches by the government. And, you know, our I feel society is becoming increasingly volatile and toxic at times. So we have this, overwhelming psychological stimuli that, you know, conditions us towards more mental illness. But then the physiological side, right, where we look at, for example.
what is it 43% of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic or something like that, you know, 88% are metabolically ill 70% are overweight or obese? And we know that there’s a very, very direct correlation between you know, higher body fats, you know, fatty liver insulin resistance and inflammation, we know that inflammation drives mental illness. And we see this reflected in the code morbid epidemiological data of the diabetes belt of America consumes more psychiatric drugs than the rest of America and America consumes more psychiatric drugs than the rest of the world.
So we are doing something very, very wrong with mental health in America. And it’s a huge psychological and physiological problem, because, for example, insulin, which you know, talking about insulin resistance and diabetes, insulin, or insulin as a hormone promotes neuroplasticity. Insulin resistance does exactly the opposite. Because if we don’t have healthy insulin signaling, we can’t induce neuroplasticity, we can’t create new neural networks.
So that’s just like one of the 1000s of examples that I could give, but like, you know, all the interleukin six from higher body fat levels and all the insulin resistance, you know, those are two major mechanisms that are not even getting into mold and microbiome and nutrient deficiencies and all these other functional medicine subjects. But just the point being metabolic illness disrupts our ability to create new neural networks and new neurons, which is why metabolic illness like what is a neurodegenerative disease, it’s chronic neuroinflammation.
It’s all it is. And essentially chronic neuroinflammation, neurodegeneration, neuroplasticity, and neurogenesis are the opposite of neuro digital So you have to be thinking about yours, the homeostasis of your central nervous system. And if there’s all this damage and not enough regeneration, what happens? That’s the definition of neurodegeneration for and that’s why Alzheimer’s is the sixth leading cause of death for Americans suicide is number 10. So it’s like it and then diabetes is like number seven or something.
It’s like, Don’t you see a link there? And not right? Because then you go watch mainstream media and it’s like, go get your super slush from Sonic and then the next commercials for Trulicity demand your type two diabetes and next commercials for invoke to manage your rheumatoid arthritis. And the next commercial is McDonald’s. Like, we are feeding the masses. So this is why like, you can’t you literally cannot afford to be an unconscious consumer because of the lifestyle and what is accessible and cheap and affordable and being fed to you. It just promotes chronic season mental illness, period.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m you’re almost making it. So there’s a part three, you’re doing that on purpose. To go down that rabbit hole for sure. I think the best one is the sponsoring of the vaccine by getting, you know a lifetime’s or year supply of Krispy Kreme. I mean, if there’s not a bigger towel than where the wrong emphasis is on, and it just really floors me that there is no more public health. parrot. I don’t even know what there is no public health anymore.
And anyway, but as far as what I think the good news is, is that, as daunting as that is, again, we talked about this last time in terms of the Goldilocks, you need a balance, you do you need growth factors and breakdown factors. And you need a balance of sympathetic, parasympathetic, and over-stimulation and under-stimulation, what I think unfortunately is happening now is environmental, like genetics haven’t changed environmentally, you have roundup and pesticides that lower the ability to lower your glutamate now you have excitotoxicity measured with everything that we’re talking and anxious. Very sensitive, very true, you know, trigger happy to go off the the the loose end people with the smallest little provocation like the worst of the worst. But on the flip side, the best of the best.
I mean, I don’t think in any day and age where science put together like there’s this psycho neuro Immuno and the Korean gi this is they’re all the same. So on the flip side, at least we have the shining, you know, the sort of the saving grace that we have a lot of great tools to be able to come out of this.
And one of the things I’m interested to talk about is what you and I had the opportunity to talk about a little bit about what’s new for you. And you mentioned mental map and microglial testing. And I’m kind of curious to know, like, kind of what what is that? And what is that about? And tell me kind of let the listeners know what you have in store for making the world a better place?
Brendan Vermeire: Absolutely. No, I appreciate the opportunity. Because as we’re starting to kind of tease open. It’s such a huge convoluted complex problem. It’s huge. And it’s honestly, it’s one of those things, you know, like I do, I do everything I can, I mean, I live and breathe this work. I’m so passionate about it. And it’s like, you know, I’m constantly pouring out content through my platform. But like, you know, daily Instagram posts, like you can’t even get into the meat of it. It’s such a big, huge, complex problem.
But ultimately, no, I mean, the government is not at all trying to increase the health of the general public. And it’s so frustrating to me, because like, obviously, I stay up to date, up to date with the latest research. But there’s such a huge time gap in between the latest research and scientific understanding and public health mandates, right.
There’s such a huge problem with that, like, you know, mold is a great example where like, we know how bad and dangerous mold and mycotoxins are. And there are billions of people in Asia and Africa that eat mold-contaminated grains daily, and we have the research to show that. But there’s nothing in place for public health when it comes to you know, what do you do about that? Or how do we fix this global health problem? The research itself calls that a shamefully ignored global health issue.
And that’s what’s happening in America with chronic illness and metabolic illness is you know, we’re not it’s really sad and this is what happens when capitalism goes too far in a toxic direction. You know, it’s big tech, Big Pharma big food in the government all in bed with one another. And they do they that system that’s not just a national to international global system it’s gone awry.
And I don’t know, I don’t think it’s gonna get better anytime soon it’s it comes down to the consumers, the public, we have to choose health. The beautiful thing about capitalism, it’s a double-edged sword if it goes awry it leads to where we’re at. But with education and awareness of what the problem is, more and more people are starting to feel like there is something deeply, deeply wrong with what’s going on. And they’re choosing to let me look outside of what’s being fed to me to see what’s going on here.
Let me use a little bit of critical thinking. So this is why you know, holistic health and functional medicine is kind of this exploding infectious in a good way, movement because people are kind of waking up and like, well, this doesn’t make sense, like, you feed us stuff that makes us fat and sick, and then you, you know, sell us your drugs. And then I have to take another drug for this drug’s side effects. And it just spirals right. We have to choose health and the market goes where the consumers go.
So as more and more of the public start choosing a healthier way of living. The market goes there, unfortunately, which breaks my heart right now and which is why podcasts and conversations like this are so great. His functional medicine and holistic health stuff are very not accessible. It’s a luxury, good.
You know, so I think functional medicine and holistic health as an industry as a movement, we have to start encroaching on the masses because we’re not accessible by them. But that’s why, you know, we all are pouring out content and shouting from the rooftops of our internet platforms trying to help people we’re in the business of helping the government and everything, they’re in the business of disease. Right? So this is where, you know, something I’ve been trying to do is like, how do we make this kind of education and content in these resources more accessible.
So one of the things that I’ve done is create a lab test called the mental map. And map stands for microglial activation profile, which I think is super sexy. I was super excited when I came up with that. But essentially, what I wanted to do is, you know, conventional medicine and conventional psychiatry say there are no biomarkers of mental illness. Now, I could explain for an hour of like, why that is their perspective, I get it, but it’s self-interested based on their business model, essentially.
Whereas, you know, a more holistic and functional business model. No, there’s a lot of biomarkers that are very, very valuable for assessing what’s going on with your mental health. Why are you struggling with your mental health, and it’s not a single biomarker, so I designed a panel of all the most relevant and clinically established clinically significant biomarkers and put it into a proprietary panel with, you know, hundreds of research citations, we’re applying the latest, greatest science so that way, you know, we can get this data into the hands of the people who need it, where, as far as they know, I have a major depressive disorder, I have PTSD, I just have to take these psychiatric drugs forever.
And do you know talk therapy with a therapist forever, there are no objective data to qualify what’s really going on physiologically, and then you don’t have a way of measuring progress. Like that’s why I’m such a big advocate of lab testing. Like in our last conversation we talked about, yeah, for a weight loss program, don’t use the scale as your way of evaluating progress used like blood work, it’s way more sensitive, you’re gonna see those biomarkers change long before the scale.
The same thing with mental illness and transcending mental illnesses, you can’t fix what you don’t measure. But if you have all these biomarkers that are very sensitive in regards to what’s going on in your nervous system, and with your mental health, well, then you have a way of whatever you’re doing, whether it’s talk therapy, and journaling and self-help or supplements or lifestyle modification, at least now you have data to empower your understanding of what’s going on in your body.
And you have a way of tracking progress. That’s objective, right. And one of the things about this is our neural limbic system or reward centers, we need to experience a reward for our effort. Otherwise, our body does not want to encourage more of that effort, because we’re just wasting time and energy. So it’s kind of like with the fitness of like if you’re working out hard every day but you’re not seeing there’s no way of feeling like you’re making progress.
Your body’s like, well don’t bother going to work out like you’re not going to reap the rewards. For your efforts, why even do it? It’s the same way with transcending mental illness. If you never have an objective way of assessing progress, you’re just subjectively will do I feel better? Do I feel better now, I’m not going to do anything good for myself, it doesn’t help anyway. So I think something is empowering about data, you know, data, objective data, that showing on what’s going on inside your body, and how you are moving the needle on your health.
So I created a tool that we’re using with practitioners, and we’re training practitioners how to use it and interpret it effectively for their clients and patients. We’re also delivering this beautifully branded report to consumers so that way, they’re more empowered in their understanding like I might have shared in our last podcast when I was first put on a psychiatric drug, it was just by my primary care physician like there was no blood work, there was no psychological psychiatric evaluation.
Nothing just like oh, you feel depressed here. It’s SSRI young, 17-year-old Brendan, right. like nobody ever did any objective lab testing. And I just so deeply disagree with that sentiment of there are no biomarkers of mental health, that does not align with the narrative that scientific literature says, and it’s so self-interested and corrupt, where Yeah, that’s the narrative that they use conveniently to promote Big Pharma which runs the world.
So I think the data starts waking people up the data, shows the truth, and empowers them to pursue a self-healing path and getting the appropriate help they need from their healthcare team. But I think data is very empowering. And I’m very hopeful that this test, this panel will empower people on their journey so that they can overcome their health struggles.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. It’s funny how you know, it’s there, it sounds like someone’s having their cake and eating it too. Like, on the one hand, there is no, there are no biomarkers for mental illness. But on the other hand, there is not necessarily having to do any biomarkers to do a prescription for you at the same time. It’s anyway, so the challenge I would have, though, would be potentially not getting lost in the minutiae of what the objective markers show if you are on the subjective self-actualization, or the, you know, the self, the life self-actualized.
And you have different categories that you like to use as a tool, and I appreciate you sharing that, where you have different areas of your life that you’re subjectively rating on a scale of 10. And you don’t show them intentionally what their old scores were, what happens if I mean, chances are rare, I’m sure there’s a positive correlation nonetheless.
But sometimes, you know, there can be a discrepancy between what the objective lab say, and what the subject says, especially if someone’s immune system has been ground zero, and they haven’t been they’ve had false negatives, and now they have real positives, but that shows that gets going worse, subjectively, but then at the same time, subjectively, I feel better, what happens in those instances?
Brendan Vermeire:
Yeah, no, that can be a tricky thing to untangle, which is also where like, even though I am such a big advocate of the self-healing movement, in people taking ownership of I am in this position, I am responsible for being in this position. And I’m also capable of working my way out of position in the majority of the work falls on me I can, I can work with functional medicine doc and health coach and, you know, conventional doc and as a psychologist to help me along that journey, but ultimately, it’s up to me, but this is where, right, like, you know, clients, patients, consumers, well, they’re not health professionals, and, you know, so it’s like, maybe you shouldn’t try to fix the faulty engine in your car if you don’t know how you should take it to a professional auto mechanic that can help you make sense of the problem or, you know, teach you how to fix it or whatever.
So I don’t think people should be trying to do it on their own. Because, yeah, you know, the exercise that you lose to the circle life, or whatever I call it. That’s how I’ve always assessed progress in my clients is, you know, how do I know if what we’re doing is working? Well, two things one, I shouldn’t see your objective lab testing getting better. But number two, I should see your subjective perception of your symptoms, getting better your subjective perception of your quality of life getting better, and I like to track all of that data.
And yeah, you know, you could see, like, yeah, maybe you know, about exposed to bug and you know, had an immune flare up or you’re working out hard or you went through a stressful period. There’s gonna be those things that might cause like a blip in your, you know, biomarkers. You could still have, you know, increased your level of satisfaction or fulfillment in all these areas of your life, like your financial health, or your interpersonal relationships, or whatnot.
But time and time again, you do see, you know, pretty significant correlation with like, biomarkers are getting worse, and their perceived quality of life is getting worse, biomarkers are getting better their perceived quality life is getting better. But there can be those little discrepancies, which is why working with a trained professional that knows how to contextualize the data, I think that’s the single most important thing is you have to put the data into context. And non-health professionals just don’t have the education or skills to do that.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I would even say, I mean, I agree 100%. But I think the most important thing is knowing what are those self-actualization circle points, right, because, again, we talked about this last time is a lot of people just know what they don’t want anymore, not so much what they do want. And that does have a physiological connection with the scrambling of that front part of the brain and not being able to make sequential planning and how to be able to think logically and rationally.
And, what would it look like I remember I had a client where it’s so funny, she was one of my favorite clients. And she was looking down at her notes, and her glasses were on her nose, and she was like steam coming out of her ears. And I remember asking her like, like, look up for a second. And she would look up and I said, What would you be doing if you didn’t have all this stuff? Like going on? Like, and she’s like, what, thumbing through her notes? Like, like, like, looking at me, like, What do you mean, like, and I just kind of saw it hit her that epiphany of Yeah, like, we’ve kind of lost the sight of why, you know, what is it that we want out of this?
And I think that’s so important because great to see those biomarkers move for sure, objectively because that does give us objective findings that this is improving and 100%, they’re correlated with these things. But if you’re not making those synapses and those neural connections, then what is it all for in the first place? Right. So when does your mental map test come available?
Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, no, it’s currently available for practitioners. And we’re doing a 12-hour seminar, two-day seminar in late October, that’s going to teach, you know, the ins and outs of every marker on the test. So that’s kind of the practitioner side, the consumer side of consumers being able to buy their beautiful custom, you know, functional report, we’re hoping to get it out by October 1. So right now, we’ve just been getting people on the waitlist, and you know, that list is growing, which is great.
You know, there’s a lot of long-term things there, I’m thinking about, maybe turn it into an app or something, you know, to make it a very user-friendly experience, so that they can use the data to guide their journey. But you just really nailed hit the nail on the head with, you know, that’s the thoughts become proteins again, where, yeah, I think a lot of us, it’s like, we’re sick and tired of being sick and tired.
And we’re sick and tired of our current circumstances. But to your point, you asked them, Well, what do you want, like if you weren’t, and that was one of my favorite things to do with new clients. They list out, you know, their top five health complaints. And it’s like, okay, so if you woke up tomorrow, and all of these health complaints were just gone? What would be different about your life? What would you do with your day if you weren’t plagued with these things?
And if you can’t answer that, like, that’s your first action step is because then you create those synapses, like those thoughts of envisioning become proteins, it’s like, we might have mentioned it. But there was that study that took two cohorts of athletes. You know, one athlete group or one control group was exercising and going through this, you know, strength training regimen every day.
And the other group didn’t exercise at all but was doing envisioning, they were imagining working out, they were imagining doing squats, and then they, you know, measured their quadricep growth and found that even the non-exercising groups still develop the bigger stronger muscles, just from that envisioning that’s a perfect example of thoughts become proteins in neuroplasticity. So you have to start envisioning the life that you do want to manifest that boat from a quantum and a very real physiological perspective.
Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure, yeah, I think that’s so important. And in terms of us from a scientific point of view, because some naysayers will say, Oh, that’s just woo-woo stuff, but it is not. It’s science stuff. So awesome. Interview again, as far as I guess it’s hard for me then what’s new in terms of any new things?
Because last time, I always ask the guests on parting I said, hey, what would you tell the younger bright-eyed Brandon that you didn’t know then that you know now and you said, Well, he was a pretty cool kid, and so forth. And What would you What? What’s in what’s new information? Like? What’s the new newest aha that you’ve had that has kind of given you some new connecting tangles with other concepts that you already had recently?
Brendan Vermeire: was quite the question. You know, I think there’s a lot to be said for, you know, reconnecting with your authentic truth that’s gotten domesticated and covered up with years and years of false belief systems and narratives. And so over the past few years, year by year, I find I get closer and closer to my authentic childhood self.
And, you know, I was reading this beautiful like, quote on Instagram the other day, that was, you know, saying how you go talk to a class of like kindergarteners are first graders, and they’re asking all these very profound questions like, Where do babies come from, and what’s beyond the universe, and, you know, all these just very powerful, deep, profound thoughts that their little minds are having. But then you go talk to a room of 12th graders and their eyes are glazed over, they don’t care, they don’t want to be there. And that goes to show something has gone very, very wrong in between kindergarten and 12th grade.
And I read that the other day, I was like, you know, that’s pretty powerful and pretty true, because our authentic self, I think, is best represented in our, in our childhood, before we go through the trauma before we go through the domestication and conditioning, and get spit out this callous, non enthusiastic adult, we lose sight of who we are, and we lose sight of how amazing and beautiful reality is. We’ve been so conditioned to experience it this one way that we are like, it’s we have blinders on, and we don’t even know it.
So this is where I think there’s so much power in reconnecting with that authentic inner child, because that’s who you are, like, what you were interested in is your nature and behavior as a kid? That’s who you are. So like, what happened in between then and now? And how can you get closer back to your, your state of authenticity? Because that’s where life is much more blissful?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great answer. It made me think, what cruel trick is that? No, like who you are at the very beginning, only to lose your path all along the way, as the years go by, but then I thought, well, the whole ying-yang theory is that you develop an evolution of, of wisdom, I think wisdom is good word wisdom, with that nice devotee of that purity. And you combine both of those.
And that’s how we should be aging with the balance of the new things that we learn that enrich the authentic child and ourselves so that you have the best of both? So awesome. I don’t know if we should go part three, because then that way, I mean, part three in some other area is as opposed to taking on the big three because that’s never a good thing to do. But I am right there with you, you know?
Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, no. I think we did a good job of kind of touching on some big thing. It’s like keeping it focused on what can people do though, right now, I think everybody’s feeling very frustrated and powerless. But quite the opposite. Like, if you’re feeling powerless, that’s usually more so you’ve given up your power.
And all you have to do is kind of take it back. And that’s kind of the battle in itself. That’s the good fight that we all need to be fighting. So yeah, I thought it was an amazing conversation. I hope your listeners get a lot from it.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Maybe well, and you know, what I was gonna say is like I from time to time, slack on my exercising, and you just need one, one, breed exercising day to undo the bad days and start all over again, which is so great, because you can always start all over again. And there’s, it’s never too late to start all over again.
And that’s the great thing about it. So awesome. I’m sure by now my listeners know where to get in contact with you. But it’s your big platform is Instagram at the holistic Savage. Correct. And they’ll be able to see that and then the tests are the people that you educate. Have they mostly been licensed health therapists or are they all kinds of therapists? Yeah.
Brendan Vermeire: Our practitioner group has gotten diverse. In the beginning, it was mostly unlicensed, like functional medicine coaches. But now at this point, it’s just all over. I have like psychotherapists in licensed psychotherapists and my functional mentorship and we’ve got that Catholic doctors and chiropractors and dietitians and MD is not as much I mean, a few here and there, but MDS are kind of the hardest. Sometimes all stubborn. So, you know, I would say it’s kind of 5050 of like unlicensed holistic functional coaches and practitioners and then another 50% of kind of a melting pot of different types of professionals.
But I think that’s what makes functional and integrative medicine so cool is the diversity of skill sets in the industry. And just like you know, you look at systems biology, the more diverse an ecosystem is, the more stable and healthy it is. So I like to think that then as an industry as a professional type, you know, functional providers, we’re a more stable and healthy profession because of our diversity, so just a little theory of mine.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, it’s a good attitude to have I never understood the lack mentality, as you know, a rising tide lifts all boats I don’t get it like if I help you with information or we help each other. It takes away from me because you can’t outgive the universe I just don’t get. I mean, I guess that’s rooted in insecurity and they need to listen to our last couple of podcasts to figure out why they have that lack mentality.
But anyways, my friend, I appreciate your time. And I look forward to seeing continued growth and progress and all the things that you do to contribute to making the world a better place. So thanks for everything that you do.
Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, likewise, my friend such a pleasure.
The post Dopamine Fasting and Adrenal Fatigue appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get their health back quickly. And today we are joined with a patient and a team member, Kristin and goanna and we’re going to do a little bit different today, Kristin is going to ask me a couple of questions about how I got into this or some of the things that we do to help people.
But then we’re going to go through a timeline history of some of her experiences with her health challenges and raise awareness for people that may not identify that stress and overwhelm. And the impact that has on your stress response system can manifest in different ways. So, Kristen, thanks so much for being here today. Yeah, for sure. So why don’t we do this ladies first, You said you wanted to ask me a couple of questions. So why don’t you go ahead and ask me some questions, and then we’ll transition into getting to know a little bit about.
Kristin Angona: your journey. Yeah, so um, one of the reasons I wanted to do this video, too, was because I wanted to be able to show my friends and family like about you, and how you’ve helped me and everything. So do you mind kind of briefly explaining how you got into this practice and how you stumbled across your breakthrough?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was an anxious kid. And I probably didn’t have the best diet in terms of sugary foods. And I didn’t realize that I had anxiety. I mean, it was a thing where I would get nervous before a competition or in-class being called upon or even just having to read out loud. And then when I went through chiropractic college, I had gone through that because I hurt my back. And when I graduated and was ready to practice, and had over $250,000 worth of student loans, and my wife was pregnant with twins, I was exhausted and burnt out and anxious and had brain fog, couldn’t focus. And I heard about this thing called adrenal fatigue, which Chris and I never heard of before.
And I thought I was pretty educated. I had a psychology degree, Exercise Physiology degree. And I had just graduated from chiropractic college, and I never heard of this thing called adrenal fatigue. And it was kind of like the Epiphany, like, Oh, my gosh, like, this is me to a tee, like, you know, when someone describes you to a tee that you could probably describe, not as good as that was, it captivates you, and like, okay, I want to hear what this has to say.
And then I went down that rabbit hole of doctors don’t accept it as a legitimate diagnosis. A lot of the time your blood tests come back normal there, there are so many different presentations like you could be lacking energy crashing in the middle of the day, you’re energized in the night and not in the morning. You can’t focus you can’t concentrate, it impacts your motivation and drive and brain fog. So there are so many things that, that it impacts and I was just sort of overwhelmed with, oh my gosh, if I don’t know about this, and I’ve studied a lot of stuff in health, then and this is more of a stress-related thing like we’re more stress than ever, and we have so many demands and to-do lists than ever, then this is an epidemic that needs to be explained and told the truth about so that’s kind of how it all started for me.
And now it’s, we help people like yourself, where they may not have identified it as being a stress-related thing. But when we tell the truth about adrenal fatigue, it goes so much deeper than just the adrenals. Right? So as you know.
Kristin Angona: no, that’s, that’s interesting reminds me a couple of years ago, I had heard of adrenal fatigue, and I sent it to a friend of mine. And I was like, Look, I feel like I have some of these things on this. But then I saw it say like, now, it’s not a real thing. And this and that it or, you know, you only have one of the things and not all of them. So like Had I known or continued researching like you then maybe I could have avoided my major crash of a situation.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. Well, you know, I look at it as you have these things that your obstacles in life for a reason, right? So had you not crashed? Perhaps you wouldn’t have been where you are now. Right? So at the same time.
Kristin Angona: Yeah. Well, that’s quite so could you maybe share on your a couple of stories, you know, one person that you’ve helped, and then we can get into how you’ve helped me?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. So one of our best success stories was from a client that we worked with within Australia, and I even remember having the initial call with her. And it was amazing how she had suffered for so long. She’d been to like really high tech, Ph.D. The Best of the Best of traditional doctors and not to say that they don’t know what they’re talking about, because they certainly do. But if she’s still suffering after all the strategies, then something’s being missed. So I remember she just told me she had been training quite hard with triathlons. And she was going up a mountain on her bike.
And then all of a sudden, it’s just like the, in the matrix, the plug got unplugged. And, you know, the person just kind of died from there. And that’s what she said. And after that, like she just was like, out of her body, she had the dysautonomia or just the, she wasn’t in touch with her body, and she couldn’t go in cars and go about roundabouts. And she couldn’t stabilize her blood glucose. So we had her understand the importance of what’s called metabolic flexibility, where we should be able to burn protein, carbs, and fats as fuel. We’ve been engineered for that. We’ve never had 24 hour online deliveries and refrigerators and abundance, and lightbulbs and everything else in between.
And so we’re not engineered in our modern-day society along with stress and overtraining and genetic susceptibilities, and chemical toxins and news and everything else, to be able to become metabolically flexible, we lose the ability. So one of the biggest things we did was having her stabilize her glucose reduce inflammation, she started to realize when she was hungry versus having to eat because you’ve been conditioned, you have a breakfast, you have lunch, you have dinner, right? Like you. Yeah, and, and it was profound. I mean, she lost a lot of weight.
And that wasn’t even one of the goals that we were looking to do. And I think once you get the body working effectively, metabolically, the side effect, as opposed to drugs, where you leave the room on a commercial and you come back, and they’re still finishing all the side effects, you know, to not, you know, if this, that and the other, the side effect of getting healthy is metabolic health and losing weight. So a couple of other strategies as you need to do a proper hormone test to figure out how hormones are clearing out, and where to focus on to strategically not just throw crap at the wall and see what sticks.
And that was quite profound. She had such amazing experiences and got her life back. And it wasn’t anything magical. It was just more of an acceptance that it’s a legitimate health challenge. There are different continuums of it. And that it’s not just the HPA axis, the brain signaling to your adrenals that something’s wrong with you. It’s also the fact that your body’s just not using energy and making energy effectively. And some embers in the fires aren’t being extinguished in her body metabolically, and the body will take care of the rest. So that’s that was one of the best, I’d say experiences we’ve had with turning someone’s life around. You know, it’s been quite amazing.
Kristin Angona: No, that’s cool. Well, I can tell you, my life turned around completely. Especially because tomorrow is one year from when I went to the ER with the situation, the person and I had never been to the ER before at all. So you know, it took a lot, or like, I had to be feeling like really bad to have to go there during the night.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I have it on my notes here that our first encounter was on 10. One 2020. So yeah, we had a little bit of time, but I’m looking at my notes. And you had the diagnosis, I believe in six in six in June of 20. Is that correct? Or before that or?
Kristin Angona: not? So June was when I first had one, the first time I ever saw blood in my stool. So it was in June. And then it was kind of on and off. Like where I was still living my normal life feeling normal. It would come and go. And you know, people just say oh, it’s stress, or Oh, it must be hemorrhoid or something like oh, that happens. Don’t worry. Then I was like No, something doesn’t feel right. Something doesn’t feel right. And then September it just, you know, my cup overflowed and it was not it just every that’s all it was and it was it almost felt like a virus-like took over and I just couldn’t stop going with
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s got to be super. I don’t even know if the good word is alarming. Right? I mean, to not feel well, but no
Kristin Angona: control of my body at all. Like it was just not me anymore. Yeah.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, it’s uh, you know, it’s, it’s this is not funny, but I remember I was playing soccer one time and I went to slide to get the ball from the dinette and one of the metal pins was a down and I slid it To the end my knee like totally opened up. The reason I bring that up is that it wasn’t as painful. It was, but it was way more painful. As soon as I saw it, like, Oh my god, like I was gonna fail.
And I would imagine like, it’s enough when you don’t feel great as it is. But to have a visual clue of blood, I mean, we’re talking out loud, like, you know, blood in the stool. It’s like, oh my god like that, like, Am I gonna die? Like, is there something going on in my body? Like, that’s, it’s Yeah, so, so Okay, so, yeah.
So what was it then that made it for you? Like, I mean, you had never gone to the hospital, you knew something was seriously wrong. What was it about you that said, Okay, I’m not gonna go the traditional approach?
Kristin Angona: Well, I did go to two different gastroenterologists. And they just kept saying, like, you know, I did different stool tests to see if it was a parasite or a bacteria. Everything came back negative, the ER also did the test too. But before I even get to the ER, I did, I saw two different gastroenterologists, they, they just said, like, Oh, we need to have you do a colonoscopy, but place based on your bloodwork and the stool tests that came back, it looks like it’s ulcerative colitis, like based on whatever they came to you. But they said We can’t give you medication. So we do a colonoscopy. And, of course, I had a lot of family members, you know, support me in my decision not to get a colonoscopy.
And then I had a lot of them that are very critical saying that, like, how could you, not do that, but I just knew deep down in my gut that Luckily, my intuition was still somewhat functioning on that that was not a good idea. And I just they gave me Mazon mean, which is just an anti-inflammatory, non, not a steroid. They said they could start with that, but that ultimately, I might have to go on prednisone or something to stop it. And it just one day, like it dawned on me. Now, I was thinking, why, if there’s inflammation, like, you know, like, when you have a fever, your body heats up, it gets inflamed, so that it fights off whatever this is so like, why Oh, and as soon as the gastro found out that ulcerative colitis runs in my family, they just come in, I’m like? Oh, yeah, that’s it that they took instantly.
And I was like, Well, no, there’s something there, my body’s inflamed for a reason. And if I suppress the inflammation with these anti-inflammatories, then I just feel like it’s gonna pop up somewhere else. And it was popping up other places I was starting to get the visual ocular migraines road see little flashes of light, like multiple times a day, so I was terrified to drive and then I started, probably because they told me to stop eating raw fiber. Um, so I was just eating like rice and bone broth, because Oh, they said, like, stop the gluten and everything which I’ve eaten pasta, like, all my life. So now I’m just eating rice, and bone broth, and like bananas. So I was getting very dizzy. Like, I’d never fainted before in my life.
And there were five times from September to October that I got so dizzy, I just fell to the floor. But I think my adrenaline kicked in enough for me to not faint, but I think most people probably would have. But everything was spinning. So like something’s going on here, I’m not going to continue being on the same. Like, they just want to make my stickers, how I felt, especially when in the ER, they didn’t do anything to help me like get an IV bag and I had someone come to the house to give me an IV bag.
And that helped me more than everything that the ER did Besides, you know, they did the CT scan, which showed me there was no blockage. So that was good. But I also had done enough research that I saw, even if there is a blockage, your body can heal that if you give it the tools to do so. I’m just like I saw, I watched a video that is back in the day. If you swallowed a thorn, your stomach would move fat over your intestines to heal that spot. So I was like there has to be a way to heal naturally. I don’t need all this intervention. And I just knew that if I went on medication, it would just cover it up and not fix the problem. So searching found you.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Here we are. Yeah, I mean, you point to a couple of important points. I feel that the traditional approach needs to be done from the beginning. I agree like you know, going there and making sure that your red flags are crossed off the list, right? If there’s any immediate I guess, lack of a better description, bleeding neck problems that need to be taken care of right away. But then when there’s just diagnosis of exclusion, well, it’s not this. It’s not this, it must be that. And the management approach is an acute-based approach for a chronic-based problem.
And I think that’s really where you’re seeing some major trends in the way healthcare is headed is, is that there should be the medical book, point 2.0, where it goes into chronic environmental challenges that aren’t approached the same way. The acute-based stuff is approaching. So, you know, and kudos to you for going outside of that, and not waiting for how long it takes for the boat in the ocean to change its course. Right? Because at the end of the day, you’re, you’re young, and you want to enjoy your life.
So, so the other thing is I saw here too, is that you ultimately, so you found me, the only thing I was gonna add was that you had stopped and looked at our notes, and you had stopped the kombucha. And you hadn’t been Yeah, you hadn’t? I mean, I guess by choice. You didn’t eat red meat or pork since you were 14 years old? Correct?
Kristin Angona: Yeah. I just didn’t earlier for like, steak or pork. But um, I mean, I love animals and all but I knew I still need some nutrition. So I like chicken and shellfish. Really. Um, but yeah, that can buka um, that was something that I had been drinking, you know, dilute, I would dilute it a bit. I was drinking it on and off since like, I don’t know, March or Bay, one of those months last year. And then, um, I think it was just amplifying whatever was already wrong in my intestines.
And then, um, after two nights before I got sick. I drank like an undiluted. I don’t know, a glass of the kombucha. And I started pinpointing it. And then you’re the one that taught me that’s very high in histamines. So that was probably contributing to it. Plus, it could have been a bad batch. I don’t know. Right?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I think I mean, I brought that up because one of the AHAs that I had in studying all of this is that the environment triggers our mast cells, mast cells stimulate your HPA axis, which impacts the adrenals. But mast cells make histamine. And if there was, we’ll get into what we looked at, because I was quite surprised to find out that gluten in and of itself wasn’t the main thing for you. I mean, it was a concern, it’s always been a concern in terms of it can produce more histamine, it can cause your immune system to go haywire.
And it can also cause because glyphosate and round up and pesticides and sprays. But as far as smoking guns, when we did the genetic testing, we didn’t see that as being a major challenge, which is good, but the histamine was already overflowing. And kombucha was, was causing that to do that. So one of the very first things we did was the GI map test.
And I knew you were very diligent with your, hence the team member you with your graphs and like, you know, having like your one, two, you know, all the things going on. But do you remember Kristin, what one of the main findings was on the first page when we had your first?
Kristin Angona: c diff? Which, oh, I guess, backtrack a little bit that I the ER and then prescribe me antibiotics, you know, to take so I took the Cipro? flagyl and something with an app? Um, I don’t remember what it was. But, um, yeah, I took that. And so when I saw that C diff on the stool test that I did with you, I was instantly like, Oh, that must have been because of the antibiotics.
And then now looking back at that, that was naive though because that means I had to have already had the C Deaf inside of my body for the antibiotics to let it get out of control. So yeah, that was eye-opening, as well, it was,
Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, listen, you know, we say like positive is positive, or pregnant or not pregnant. But if it were pregnant, it would be like 10 months pregnant with the how high levels it was, because it was like to the exponent seven, and we want to see it below the exponent three. And so so that’s quite high. The two things I would say is that, unfortunately, whether it’s I think it’s lab core quest, they just do not inundate themselves with PCR testing, which means they’re not looking at the DNA sample.
And it’s like, that’s the equivalent of saying, okay, the the the police department and put out whatever, Iowa whatever, decides that they don’t want to run the crime scenes for DNA. They think that that technology is too advance to try to convict the murderer or the crime scene with, you know, why would we do that? I mean, that’s what the analogy is, is like, you know, well, you came back falsely negative with your test that you did over here, but now you’re quite positive over here.
And then there were a couple of other markers on the, on the second page, if you read Remember, are the last page. I mean, there was some dysbiosis as well. But yeah, do you remember? Like, what were some of the findings that you saw on the last page with your immune system that they had on there?
Kristin Angona: Oh, yeah, my immune system was like a super overdrive, and then right. A lot of Colt level was very high. Okay,
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you’re bad. Yeah, no, yeah. Well, yeah, you had, I believe you had some strep and some bacillus, a little bit of Candida. And when we say when we see multiple species, I think it’s important for the listener to know they say, Well, I have Cebo, like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. First and foremost, when you do a stool sample, it’s a culture of the lower intestine. So you can’t say it’s the small intestine, it’s the lower intestine. But what tends to be in the lower intestine could migrate to the small intestine.
And at the end of the day, it’s kind of selfish to say it’s CBOE because CBOE implies that it’s only bacteria. I think CMO is a better word because it means small intestinal microbial overgrowth other things. So there was some Candida that wasn’t positive but wasn’t negative. Then there were some other concerns with other bacterias. And then your secretary IGA, as you said, was super high.
And your calprotectin was super high, and oh, Cold Blood was there. So to me, that’s an explanation of something’s new here, like very new here. Right. So. So what did we do from there to address that, like, from your, from your point of view?
Kristin Angona: Um, well, you gave, you helped me figure out how to take on the GI synergy, which I call the natural antibiotics because I thought, you know, in it, right, that the repair site to help repair the gut. So I just remembered it was like the five Rs. I don’t remember what they all are, but like remove replace, Rhian Doc, I don’t remember the rest.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Restore your store secretions? And then I think to remove, right.
Kristin Angona: So I’m just rebuilding my whole gut lining, like remove the bad and replaced and heal it and replace it with good, so right. I remember that being a very long process, but I knew that what had to be done to, you know, heal long term for that. So. Right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So So then I know we did a, we did a couple of things because I know that the natural antibiotics, I think is a great term. And it doesn’t just have to be gi synergy. There’s other you know, some people that are overstimulated with their mast cells, they can’t tolerate a tonic like that. Because there are too many things. So I think it spoke to your constitution in that you didn’t like given that the acute nature of this, it wasn’t building on your age, it’s not building up for decades, right?
where a lot of the times people’s immune system that Secretary IGA is very, very low, even though they have like, something that’s there in like the Border Patrol, you know, your border patrol was all hands on deck, you know, we got some, so so but then we ended up I know, we talked about this the other day where we were having you kill Monday through Friday, and follow it up with some charcoal or binders so that that can help remove the toxins as well give your liver a little extra support.
And then we were also talking about giving it some nutrients for repairing on the weekends. I still like remember, hey, like, when we had our follow up, Can I repair on the weekdays as well? And for sure. I think that kind of suit was it was a tough process going through all of like you said was a long process, was it? Was it hard for you to do did it?
Kristin Angona: It was a little hard because I didn’t see results right away. But I knew deep down that like, you know, when you’re killing bad things, they will produce like some die off. So it can get a little bit worse before it gets better. So I knew that but my anxiety didn’t agree with that always. And so it’s still panic me. But I just remember thinking like, I felt like the repair on the weekends wasn’t enough. And that if I could take it at night when I wasn’t eating, maybe give it a chance to help repair overnight while it was sleeping. So I remember I emailed you and you’re like, yeah, we could try.
Right, right. Yeah, so that was the repair by, and then I remember one of the most eye-opening things. Were you saying that we needed to do the DNA tests for me to see, you know what my genetic susceptibilities were at? First, I didn’t know what that meant, because I was like, Yeah, I know that this runs in my family, but at the same time, um, I don’t think that this is something that was building for years, although now looking back like now that I feel so much better.
There were so many signs that my cup was filling. Right? It did just overflow. So it. So yeah, the DNA test then became very helpful to see about histamines. And I guess that’s how your body.
Dr. Joel Rosen Uses how it uses nutrients at the end of the day, like, you know, like so. So that’s an important segue because when we did the follow-up gi map, we weren’t out I think we weren’t completely, the fire hadn’t been completely extinguished, I think there was still smoldering and still some areas of the forest that were burning, I looked at the markers, and they went down from point seven, or exponent seven to exponent four, which was encouraging, it needs to be below exponent three.
But your Secretory IgA was lower your calprotectin was lower your occult blood was lower. The was, let me ask you about this because I know this is concerning for people. There were some more markers, though, on your dysbiosis or the other bacterias that weren’t there on the first go around. And even there were changes on the third test, too. How did I guess?
First and foremost, were you seeing subjective, like how you feel, and what toilet showed you improvements, versus if you didn’t even see the results of the GI map test.
Kristin Angona: So actually, I remember saying that to you as well that I was feeling so much better. And then I saw the test. And it almost instantly triggered me to like, feel like I was going to the bathroom more frequently again. So, the first stool test we did was like October 3 or something. And then, um, I did we are the GI map. And then the second one was in February, I believe. And that one was the one that showed my flood of Colt went from 64 to four. And so that was a really big improvement.
And then the calprotectin went from 3000 to like the one I think Exactly. Um, so I was like, okay, the inflammation is almost gone. But then seeing all the other bacteria and the C. diff still there instantly made me feel like I had to, or that I was going to the bathroom more frequently again. So it got in my head and I became aware of that. And then the third test, I think was in may finally show that the C diff was completely gone. Zero blood and no inflammation. So, um, that was good, but I think I did panic again with the.
Dr. Joel Rosen: I guess some of the other. Years. That went high. Yeah. Which is a marker of the leaky gut, right.
Kristin Angona: Yeah. Which then it kind of I know you’ve explained to me it’s kind of like layers of an onion. So the first couple tests may have just shown, you know, one layer but as we peel back that I think you said biofilms it can expose more so.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a good point. And you know, what do you remember also to like taking a stroll down memory lane to the antimicrobial, all the microbes, but there was something that was concerning on the first page that wasn’t there for the first time. Do you know what that you remember? what that was? a parasite? Yeah, yeah, he had Giardia come in there. So you make a really good point like people need to understand that is that when the microbes coalesce and it’s like I make an analogy like you have a party at your house, your people from work, they hang out in the kitchen, your neighbors probably are in the backyard, and then maybe your family members and someone else like someone like from your high school or whatever is in in the family room, and they’re all in their little bunches, but eventually, they kind of as the night goes on, they kind of get in and intermingle. That’s what a biofilm is.
And really, it’s like a matrix in the body again, where it’s like, Okay, how can we reinforce ourselves. And so they have a mucus-like sludgy biofilm, which is an oil terminal, that oil creates these biofilms that, that adhere to the pipes and stuff and make it much harder to get rid of it. And then on top of that, it reinforces itself with heavy metals and so forth and so on. So when you’re doing a protocol to kill and lice, those, if it’s not strong enough, it doesn’t get everything. If you don’t have potential key leaders to help break that metals down. It doesn’t work. But it can also then show you, Hey, your test is maybe if you don’t take it in perspective of how you’re feeling so much better.
And you just look at it objectively, you might think that the test is getting worse, right? You might get that ascent. So how did you Jose, how did you lock it up? Like how did you rein it in and say okay, like, I know that the test is showing me some improvements because it went from so high to solo here, but this went high? And that even physically caused me to feel, you know, an urgency. But at the same time, how did you balance that with? Okay, like I’m trending in the right direction because a lot of people won’t keep it together.
Kristin Angona: Well, I like so okay, when I first started taking the natural antibiotics within October, and then you had me take digestive enzymes and also the enzyme to remove histamines do right. So that and then adding in a fiber back into my diet, like actually eating real foods again. So I write because I started um, nice. So December was the last time that I got dizzy and the last time that I had flashes in my eyes, so I think that kept it in perspective for me, right? with the others like no, I am improving like, oh, and I could base them I was able to go longer without having to eat so many vegetables.
Dr. Joel Rosen: My blood to know I mean.
Kristin Angona: oh, yeah. So I was still seeing blood in my stool through January, but like December around Christmas time, it significantly cut down because around Christmas time was the first time that I felt good enough to go out to eat went to a Louis Boston Italian restaurant because they had everything like freshly made. So I felt comfortable enough to go there. Um, so when we are around Christmas time, I saw a significant reduction in blood and it was more like formed stools not so often. So I was. So I just had to reel it back in and think like, No, I’ve made huge improvements.
And one of the things that I know now was a huge sign was that this was all leading up with that I was getting extremely bloated at night, like so if I ate dinner at like six or so at midnight, I would be like lying awake, like feeling I had to sit up because my stomach felt just so full. I never associated that as I don’t want anything being rushed, like people are just like, Oh, yeah, that happens. That happens. Like, um, and so just knowing that that wasn’t happening anymore, and I wasn’t having those other symptoms, and I wasn’t getting shaky between eating and Oh, the other thing that was happening too, after I ate when I was sick was that my heart rate would feel like super strong, like, I could feel it everywhere.
And that doesn’t happen anymore. So I’m like, I’m improving, and I can’t let the one like my body down can start to heal on its own without, like, I’ve given it the tools and I just had to reel it back in to know that I’m…
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. good points there and, but I do feel like it needs to be elaborated on where you saw that test. And then you saw a felt of an urgency. And I guess we have to harness the energy that we control it getting out of control with the button, the balancing it with how good that the other things are? Was there anything conscientiously that you feel you learn from that, like being able to just ramp down your response? Like, what was the?
Kristin Angona: matter? Just really, um, I guess just keeping the faith, like trusting my intuition, knowing that I’ve been on the right path, don’t and I think you pointed it out to me too, like, look how obvious like, as soon as you saw the test, then this started happening. And so, um, that’s how much stress can play a role on your, like, take a toll on your healing and, um, need to control the stress.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Response for sure. And, you know, I remember that as you bring it up, I was like, like, it’s kind of, as you mentioned to me, okay, they had me stopped taking fiber when they thought I had UC, and I had to go with very little food whatsoever. And I think maybe short-term, I could see that because you want you don’t want to irritate the lining with any potential. I guess irritants, if you will, or allergens or triggers. But a couple of things is that need to be followed up with, okay, and by the way, this is a short-term recommendation, because, you know, we need to make sure your diversity is big. So I remember bringing diversity into your, your mindset, like Hey, you got to get to bring some diversity here. Like that’s not enough foods there that because that’s how your microbiome is made.
And you know, the other thing I kind of let pass, which I think is you’re very fortunate that it didn’t happen, but when someone takes Cipro that’s a major Crusher. I’ve had unfortunately like our old office manager whose wife is still very sick, who took Cipro and you can go online and Google-like Cipro toxicity or fluoroquinolones injuries because ultimately, antibiotics kill bacteria. And our mitochondria are bacteria.
And ultimately, you’re dropping an atom bomb in the middle of a microbial storm, and you’re just hoping that Okay, good guys don’t die, just kill bad guys, you know, and it doesn’t work out that way. So you’re fortunate in that way? For sure. The other I’ve been the other outlier, which you just remind me of was, you know, with your glucose and stabilizing that, and not eating so much. So, tell us to tell us sort of what kind of routine now you’ve settled in on to kind of maintain the balance now.
Kristin Angona: Oh, um, so for me, I was eating like, I mean, everyone at work, like when I worked in person and retail, they would always laugh at me how frequently I’d be eating, especially because I’m small person, like, are you eating so frequent, but I get shaky between, I would get shaky between meals, so I always eat lunch, like, right at 12. And then I’d have my snack at like, three, and then I would go home and eat my dinner at six, like, basically, every three hours I was eating, but now I can, I really, I eat my breakfast, like I don’t have to eat as soon as I wake up, which is great, I do wake up starving, but I don’t feel like I’m gonna fall over if I don’t eat.
Whereas before it felt like I had to eat right away, or I couldn’t think or function now I can just, you know, start doing whatever, eat casually like an hour or two after I wake up, and then I can. So I’ll probably, I don’t know, somewhere around like, nine-ish. And then, um, I can eat my lunch now like one or two, which is a huge well, or just based on whatever I can get away from work to go cook it. Um, and so that’s just a big difference, right there.
And then sometimes I’ll have like a little snack around like four, but probably just because I’m like, working and thinking. And then I can eat my dinner like that. Seven, which is such a big difference for me. Um, I would always be the one to like, eat before you went out to dinner because I didn’t want to be starving and sitting there. And now I feel like I have a little bit more leeway.
It’s more an anxiety thing for me now. Like I remember you saying to figure out my actual physical blood sugar versus my psychological blood sugar. Right? Right. Yes. So that was a big eye-opening thing for me too. But just like seeing how it was all connected, I wasn’t crazy. And all those things were happening because something was going wrong. So I think genetically, you saw that I have trouble removing histamines and regulating my iron. So I think those Yeah, was it? Yeah.
Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure. I mean, there are a couple of other things here too, which we’ll get into as we talk about it, but you make a couple of really good points is the difference between physic physical hunger and psychological hunger? And, and sometimes so many people tell me this is like, oh, if I don’t need it, I’m gonna, gonna faint, you know, and I’m gonna die. And I don’t believe that. I mean, in your case, it was very low. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. But for some people, if their glucose isn’t low, they’re insulin resistant, and it’s not getting into the cells.
So I think it’s important to calibrate that and understand that we do tools with that. But I guess the question is, is that now you would never have found me, if if I had only presented in my local business area, that we only help people that have adrenal fatigue problems. In our local area, we had a bunch of conditions like functional medicine, like we have gi issues, and thyroid issues and hormone issues and brain fog issues, and so forth. So but now that you understand the role of stress in the body, especially when your mind can go play tricks on you, and you can physiologically have, you know, an urgency to go more and start to oh my gosh, like things are getting worse again.
And so what would you tell the listener that may have gi issues that were some real aha is for you to know that it goes deeper than the GI and it’s kind of a chicken or the egg thing in terms of its kind of a two-way road? It’s not even a two-way road? It’s a five-way road with so many other things going on? What would you What have you learned and what would you tell other people about that, um.
Kristin Angona: That there’s like, you’re not just an unlucky person that your issue happens to there’s a reason for it and you have to find the root cause of the reason and a lot Yes, while it can be genetic, like yeah, maybe because I have an issue moving histamines or whatever. my intestines are more genetically susceptible or something to having the inflammation go there.
Whereas someone else it might be, you know, arthritis or some, some, you know, thyroid or something but, um, You have to find out your genetic susceptibilities to see what you’re, you know, to see what genes can get turned on to see, you know, now that I think about the histamine issue, that was the other thing like when we determined that I had a histamine issue, and that can create your gut lining to be permeable. I guess that is right. Yeah. So because I genetically am susceptible to not removing histamines, my whole gut lining became permeable, which made me susceptible to the other issues.
But also, I didn’t realize that I had a histamine issue because I’m, you know, yes, I would sneeze more often, or whatever. But I didn’t. I wasn’t one of those people allergic to everything. So you would never think that you have too many histamines, but then also, my face doesn’t turn red as much anymore. That was another thing too, that I should have known or being able to be like, really hot, I got zero, like heat tolerance, I would have to go inside. So little things like that. Were all signs that something was going wrong.
So I would tell the listener to look at all those other signs and that, yes, well, those are common, that doesn’t mean that it’s normal. And you can find the root cause for it before it explodes into some sort of big digestive issue or other autoimmune.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are great points. The first point, I would say, which people get in this vicious cycle of never fixing it, Kristin is a, they have this biosis, they do a cleanse, they repair the gut lining, only to find out that they have leaky gut again, and they have food sensitivities, so they remove foods, and then they have lower health of diverse bacteria. And then they never get upstream enough to impact the histamine, which is causing a leaky gut. So it’s just you were able to get upstream from that and see all of the connections there.
And address it, that would be the first thing. The other thing too is that from the genetic standpoint, you make a good point where some people when they’re oxidizing, or when they’re not able to make enough energy, it impacts their neurotransmitters, so they get more concerned or they get more anxious or panicky. And at the end of the day to like when you’re repopulating your healthy flora, your neurotransmitters are all produced in there as well. Right?
So, you know, it’s quite amazing that you know, you’re able to learn all of this, too. So I guess the other thing that we always bring up is, well, you know, it’s expensive, and my insurance should pay for this. And I’m only going to do the things that insurance pays for, I guess, what was it in the motivation that made you feel like okay, like, I can’t go down that road? Or what was it in your line of thinking that, like, the cost-benefit ratio, was it you know, to do something different?
Kristin Angona: I mean, that’s so easy for me. Like, I can’t say that I had all the money upfront to pay for it, I did it. But I found a way. Like, I used some of my HSA, I put some on credit cards, I paid for some out of pocket, sorry, my dog is walking, but, um, but I, in my mind, and I had a friend, um, my friend, Amanda, the nurse practitioner, she said to me, she’s like, when you’re sick, like, stop worrying about money, like, do what you have to do to get better.
And I just, I thought about it, and I was like, if I don’t have my life, then I don’t, what’s the point of having money, so just spend what I have to feel better so that I can have my life again, like, um, and I always tell people now, like, if you could pay, I don’t know, whatever amount it is, like. I mean, there’s to me, there’s no limit, not that I want to be ripped off or something. But I don’t think that I was right there no amount that I wouldn’t have figured out a way whether, you know, you have to sell your cars, I don’t think is what’s the point of having a car if you can’t drive it. Right.
My life was completely turned upside down. I couldn’t. I mean, I worked from home and I couldn’t even work at home because I couldn’t, you know, sit at the computer long enough without having to go to the bathroom or, you know, I was falling over. I couldn’t go out to eat, I couldn’t go, you know, do whatever the things that I like to do. So like, if I can’t do that, what’s the point of having?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, it’s amazing. Some people don’t have those Wake Up Calls. I mean, sadly, I had a call with someone the other day who has major brain issues, like they can’t speak properly, they don’t have balance. The doctors are telling them that nothing’s wrong. And I told the person like Look, I don’t have a magic wand and I’m not gonna guarantee you that we’re going to fix this but I feel like I’m your best option here like, like you’re dying Like what?
And they didn’t they didn’t take it. You know, the next step. And I guess if you look at it like people are hardwired different and you No, I think like, okay, what’s the purpose? Like if I can’t work and earn an income? what’s the purpose of me having money when I die? It doesn’t make sense.
Kristin Angona: Well, I think of it, like if you’re, if some, you know, if someone, the only way to get to work is their car and their car engine crash or their car gets totaled or whatever they’re gonna do whatever they can to find a way to get a new car so that they can get to work. So I was thinking in terms of, you know, like, I needed to pay whatever I needed to to get myself better because otherwise, there’s no point in having those things. Um, but also, then I saw my er two er bills was more than what I paid just to see you, right.
I do think I had to still go to the ER, because that was like a, you know, learning opportunity for me to know that I was strong enough to go there on my own overcome, like, you know, a fear with that. But still, that was so expensive that had I, maybe, if someone told me like, hey, all these symptoms that you’re having are leading up to something bigger, you can see, you know, Dr. Joel, and, you know, you avoid a $15,000 er, Bill, then, you know, that would have been more enticing, but I didn’t, I had to go this way. Right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: There are lots of lessons there. I mean, I think, you know, like, I and I, one of the things we teach is like, like things happen for our best purpose, right? Like, when you look at blood in the stool, there’s nothing good about that. But I think it’s enough of smelling salt. Like when you’re knocked unconscious to say, like, Holy moly, like, I got like, this is my life here. Like this is not messing around here. Like, I’ll just give you a quick little example. Like, when I went to college in the states graduate program and chiropractic. As I said, I was in debt over $250,000, the Canadian dollar was 67 cents to the American dollar.
And we didn’t have money, we put like, we got loans. And from the US government, you had to show like what your house was worth so that you had a net worth to be able to get your student visa, blah, blah, blah. And I will never forget my I wouldn’t there are times to Kristen, where I couldn’t sleep, like, I didn’t have the home the money like guaranteed for the whole year. So when I came to the States, I knew I had to find new lending and to be able to get you to know, more like that third-trimester pay for it. Right?
So I wasn’t sleeping, I was stressed out. And the best man of my wedding, he says to me, like, what are you doing? Like, what happens if you don’t like to get the money? And I was like, Well, I’m stressed for sure. But it was never an option to not get it. Like that wasn’t an option. I sailed across the ocean, and I burnt the boat, the ships, you know, like, Cortez, I didn’t think about like, Okay, what happens if I need those boats to get back?
It wasn’t an option. Right. And I think that’s probably the difference between when we say people that get their health back, are resourceful. is there’s no option? I mean, you were resourceful for that whole purpose is up. Does that make sense?
Kristin Angona: Yeah. And I mean, I guess that’s one thing throughout my whole life, like when I set my mind to something, I will find a way, right? I guess that trait carried over. But really, I asked people now like, you know, how much like if you had to pay a certain amount of money to be to find the answers to know like, what your individual body needs? Like, why wouldn’t you do that?
And when people sit down and think about it, they’re like, you’re right. Like, why would I do that? Because it can help you? Like the DNA test alone? I feel like it’s so valuable because it can, it helps you learn about your specific body and what you need. I mean, you know, I’ve had like everyone in my family, do it now. Just because why wouldn’t you want to know to set yourself up for long-term success, and so many of these people in my family didn’t realize that they’re tired or whatever, because of genetic susceptibilities? Or also histamine issues. So, yeah, right. That’s just my thought process. Well, you know,
Dr. Joel Rosen: I think, I think and it’s not a commercial for us. I mean, I think the more important point is, is that if someone’s listening to this and has a major health challenge, on top of that, a major fear of not getting resourceful, that’s not serving you. Like you’ve got to get over that bridge of fear and say, okay, like, it’s worth it. It’s worth it to me, I bet. Maybe you’re you haven’t been hired hardwired, like, I think that is a hardwired trait where if I’m gonna find an option, I’m gonna, I’m not gonna, like get thrown into the ocean. I’m not gonna let myself drown.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people have don’t have that until they’re in the ocean and they have to swim. Right? And I think more so than anything. The important point of what we’re saying is, is that if you’re suffering from a health challenge, and you are looking for answers, they’re out there. And don’t let the excuse of there it’s not out there be the limiting factor versus getting resourceful and, and figuring out how to do it, whether it’s with us or someone else because there is helping out there.
I think that’s the hope that we’re providing to people. So, yeah, I mean, as far as any last words, I always ask when I do these interviews with people, I always ask, Hey, like, what would the wiser, Kristin, tell the younger, naive, Kristen that she didn’t know then that she knows now that we’re only talking a year, right? So, but like, Are there any, like new words of wisdom, you would tell yourself that you didn’t have before?
Kristin Angona: The first thing that comes to mind is like, you were right, like I was right, all along, to follow my intuition, and don’t get sucked down the rabbit hole of other people’s opinions. And I mean, like, I could have very easily I could very easily just be on the what and mesalamine, Hubbard said anti-inflammatory right now forever, or steroids forever. And, you know, that would impact my whole future, you know, and I just, I’m just glad that I listened to myself and didn’t and because even my family started to doubt me at one point, they’re like, maybe you should just do the colonoscopy, you know, get it.
And I was like, No, there’s no, like, I know that. I already know there are no blockages. So based on that, like, I need to figure out what’s the root cause of this, and not just be put on steroids further, because I haven’t asked the doctor like, okay, so if you do confirm it, it’s this, what do you do? And they said, Oh, I think IV steroids and then like a regular steroid, and then until the inflammation goes fully down, and then the anti-inflammatory, you know, just people just take it forever. And I’m like, I don’t want to do that. I wanted to fight like that. Why did this just happen? So?
Dr. Joel Rosen: No? inquiring minds, you know, just trust your guts talking back to you. Right? Yeah, trust it, trust it mentally
Kristin Angona: Crazy, you know, like you’re feeling like this isn’t? You’re not just lucky that, like, you have to live with this forever, like you…
Dr. Joel Rosen: Can try. Right? That’s good, that’s a really good point. And you know, what it kind of gets us back with our mission, I think in terms of like, when I had that epiphany, like, Oh, my God, like, if this is happening to me, and I know a lot of stuff I felt and Imagine all the people that don’t know, a lot of stuff that is disempowered, and then just do what the doctor says to do. Even if the doctor I think does have the best interest from what they know, I don’t think they’re malicious. Like, I don’t think they’re like going out of their way to screw people. But, you know, there’s power in choice.
And you’re not confined to have that, like, it’s so frustrating to think like, if you gave someone information and that information, if it were applied, you know, it would make a difference in terms of not just their quality of life, their quantity of life, it almost makes you more connected to why we do what we do because there are people out there that need to hear the information. So yeah, thank you. I mean, thanks for sharing everything, because it’s not a humbling conversation, right.
I mean, it’s, it exposes the very nature of you know, what’s going on with you. So thank you for sharing, because I think anyone who listens to this will get, you know, empowered and, and feel like hey, and identify as well. And I know you mentioned about potentially, like, you know, if anyone ever has any questions, that you’re open to answering them because you’ve always been that way as well. So does is that fair? Oh, yeah…
Kristin Angona: Definitely. I want to help as many people as I can because I don’t want anyone to have to go through what I did. There are so many Facebook groups of people with like Crohn’s or ulcerative colitis, C, diff, all sorts of things, people just out there, like, I know, they’re just sitting on their couch not being able to move because they’re too weak, and they’re not eating and everything. So I just want as many people to know, as possible.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Well, I hope that the lessons they get weren’t that you just invested in yourself and took that leap of faith, but the other investigations like you trusted yourself that you weren’t crazy, that you weren’t destined to have to just accept the diagnosis, that you weren’t going to stop short of any answers, but the ones that you needed to hear to give you hope to put the next step forward. Are you I know you’ve told me that it’s like you’ve trained yourself in other, you know, skillsets for holistic health care and practice, and is there any specific goals or aspirations you have now that you’ve crossed that sort of that chasm in terms of what You want to do at a next level? Um,
Kristin Angona: I mean, I would love to be able to help people, you know, like help guide them to how they can get the answers. I mean, but in terms of my actual training, I did my Reiki certification. And then I mean, I’m just coaching in general, like my leadership degree, but I just want to help guide people to finding the answers that they need to help themselves. I just don’t know how to do that yet.
Dr. Joel Rosen: We’re developing it. I mean, I think it’s, it’s advocacy, right? I mean, that’s what it is. I mean, you’re, you’re an advocate for the empowered, or the unempowered to be empowered. Yeah. That they have choices, and that you’ve been there and done it, right. I mean, there’s nothing better than saying like, hey, look, I’m not just, you know, talking the talk, right. I’ve walked the walk. I’ve done it. I’ve been where you have. So that’s great. That’s a great thing.
So yeah, I’m excited to, to see like, what at least I think, hey, and we said this a little bit before we started. I don’t think that healing is ever fully fixed, right? I mean, in terms of it’s an ongoing process, it’s a verb, something that’s always do and I said, Hey, we need to do another checkup just to see like, what smoke signals we see. So that we don’t see a burning building before it’s burning. You know, like, you always got to do that. So that’s, that’s still the on the docket per se.
Kristin Angona: Yes. And I guess just one thing I’d like to tell people to go back to like when you were a kid, where you’d always ask why, why why don’t have to just accept. Yeah, like the diagnosis of this is what it is, like, figure out why that happened, whether that’s it removed, you know, internal things, like, you know, like, I have the access histories, but also the external factors that created it like, EMF, I’m extremely sensitive to Yes,
Dr. Joel Rosen: I would never get on that. That’s right. You’re very extensive.
Kristin Angona: Yeah, you’ve taught me ways to limit my EMF exposure, like shutting my, my phone off. I’ve switched to like, I eat all organic food. Now I’ve switched all my cooking ware to pure ceramic I, like, all my cleaning products are nontoxic. So I’m trying to limit or control what I can control so that it makes, my body have an easier job to do.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s great advice. For sure. It. Yeah, no, it’s an awesome thing that you and again, you’re right. Like, there are no bad questions, right? Because a lot of people don’t want to speak up in front of the doctor because they don’t want to, you know, sometimes their bedside manner sucks. And like, they just want you to get out of the office and don’t like don’t bother them with a question.
Don’t let that deter you. A and B, you have a right to know why. You know, like, why did this happen? Like just intuitively reflexively, like a knee-jerk reaction, like someone put the hammer on your knee? It’s like, Okay, I have this like, why like, oh, because it’s in the family. But, but why now? Like, you know, like.
Kristin Angona: Can you see because, you know, at 30 years old, they say, typically, I would have been showing signs that like, you know, in my young, younger 20s. So, for this to just hit on now. Oh, they also said ulcerative colitis is stress-induced. But I mean, I was the least stressed that I had ever been because I work from home now. I’m not dealing with, you know, customers right in my face. But now I realized, that hit me at the time where my body was its least stressed because it knew that was the only time I would be able to handle it too. So right.
Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s true. That’s a good point. Yeah, for sure. That is it’s amazing how that happens. No, it’s just one last thing I would say is a lot of people will say that they’re they never get stick. Like they have a really strong immune system. I was saying, Yeah, right. But like, that just also means you’re in wind up, right. So when you’re able to turn off the defense system, it’s not completely overreacting to every little thing, then some people will reflexively get sick a little more.
That’s not what’s called a Herxheimer reaction. That’s just like rebalancing your immune system so it’s not a hyperdrive. And don’t necessarily another clinical Perla to this not to this interview today is just because you never get sick and you have a really strong immune system. If you have low energy, if you have blood in your stool, if you have, you know, ocular migraines, if you have things that you know, like, something’s wrong with me here, especially as overt as blood in your stool, but I’m never sick.
Don’t just discount it and say, Oh, well, it mustn’t be a thing. You know, it’s a thing. You know, you sometimes you need those warning signs earlier, but thank goodness you had a major warning sign to say Okay, enough, Kristen, you got to do something about this, right. So awesome. All right. Well, great. I appreciate the time and the information.
And like I said, I love the Hey, hope you can like have a part two On like what the next level of health brings for Kristin and, and things that learners people listening to this can learn from, from your lessons that you’ve learned. Awesome.
If you would like to contact Kristin to ask her questions, click here
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https://youtu.be/Hy-QmC62ntE
Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back very quickly. And I’m really excited to be joined by Don Moxley. He’s the director of the applied science and brand division at longevity labs Inc. in May 2020, he began working with longevity labs. As a nutritional supplement company founded in Austria, Maine, his role is the director of applied science and brand development, their flagship product, which we’ll be talking about, not just in terms of what it is spermidine life, how it is used in terms of balancing growth and building with recycling and clearing out or M tour and autophagy.
And that’s going to be our main topic. But ultimately spermidine life is a daily nutritional supplement that has been shown to trigger a key element in longevity, which is called the toffee G. Hey, Don, thank you so much for being here today.
Don Moxley: It’s my pleasure. I’m really excited to be on the podcast and talk to your listeners.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, we were just geeking out a little bit before we got started here. And you were telling me about your background and how you were in exercise science. So why don’t you tell our listeners who are exhausted and burnt out a little bit of your own story?
Don Moxley: So my background, I’m trained as an exercise physiologist, and I’ve spent 25 of the last 35 years is either an adjunct or an assistant professor teaching the Exercise Sciences in a couple of different institutions. But while I’ve been teaching, I’ve also kept a foot in the industry, particularly in the wearable industry. And I’ve also spent a lot of time working with high-performance athletics back. Back early on, I worked with the Chicago Bulls, and this was back with the Jordan bulls. And I had two players on that team that were I’m an Ohio State guy. I graduated from Ohio State I wrestled at Ohio State.
And that’s right, where did most of my work. So you’ve got you to know, that provides the connection. So I had two players on that team that we worked with all the way up to where in my last direct work, I was a sports scientist with the Ohio State University athletic program with their wrestling program from 15 through 18. In 2000, in the 2017 18 seasons, we measured three and a half million data points on our wrestling team. And one of the big things that came out of it that really ties into our discussion today was understanding heart rate variability and heart rates, very abilities, ability to diagnose problems with, with athletes that are underperforming, we could use it for exercise, prescription understanding, when do we go to the whip, when do we turn things back, but we could also use it and you can also use it in the selection, we learn things.
You know, we learn things that you could actually use HRV for selection because if someone does not have the capability to recover, during either the big 10 or the national tournament, and they can’t make all American Well, we now we figured out that you’ve got to have about 75 milliseconds of RMS SD and your HRV to make all American and if you don’t have it, you won’t make it and we have we had with several data points to suggest that. So became kind of a knot in HRV. And the understanding recovery in my family. We’ve had issues in our family with post-traumatic stress.
And you know, so whether you’re working with an Olympian or working with someone who has severe post-traumatic stress, you’re just on the other end of the same continuum. And the tools that we use with my Olympians, or this in my national champions, are the same tools we use with those that are just struggling to, to get through the day and deal with the burnout that so many people deal with.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, HRV has come a long way, I guess in terms of the ivory towers now into the 30,000 view foot, not even weekend warrior, but the person who’s exhausted and burnt out and just isn’t getting answers. And that’s who I see the dawn in terms of they’ve been to 510 15 doctors, their blood tests are quote-unquote, normal, yet they feel like crap, and they’re looking for solutions. And all of them that I initially encounter have 1001 different supplements in their pantry.
And it’s not for the lack of trying or desire to get better or willingness to try so many different things. It’s just they haven’t cracked the code if you will, and I think what you’re what we’ll be talking about today and transitioning From what you just told me, now you have the spermidine life and you have a product that really kicks into a toughie, G. Why don’t you kind of segue from our talk and segue from the shift that you made, and how it how that got originated, what the genesis of that was?
Don Moxley: Well, what’s interesting about it, so, again, we were talking beforehand, I left Ohio State in 2018, frankly, because they weren’t ready for the work that I was doing. Um, and, and that can be challenging, but it was a great experience I had, I mean, I really enjoyed it, we learned a lot. But I actually moved down into your neighborhood, I was living down in North Palm Beach working in the cannabis business. Because while I was doing the HRV work, you know, I had, I had peers in the pros, that were asking, Hey, are you looking at cannabis with your athletes and my athletes were NCAA athletes. So cannabis was off the table.
But through a connection of a connection, I was invited to come down into that business, and I, you know, I drove and dove into the deep end of the pot pool. And you know, when you start understanding HRV, you have to understand the endocannabinoid system, you have to understand these recovery tools. And it was just a wonderful lesson. I mean, I listen, I don’t I don’t know where you’re at spiritually. But I have, I believe I have a lot of angels looking out for me, and I try to keep my radar as open as possible and go where directed. And it was a great experience, to really dig into that space. And while I was in that space, I met, I get a call one day from a guy saying, Hey, what are you doing?
And you know, I was building a brand down there in Florida for one of the cannabis companies in the medical space. And he said we’ve got this new molecule. And, and Dr. Rosen, I, I was I passively recognized the term autophagy. I had never heard of the word spermidine. And so but I trusted this guy, and I started to dig in. And, and the awakening was really interesting. And, you know, I talk about the fact that I’ve taught, I’ve taught 20 You know, I’ve taught in the last 30 years, 35 years. And when you teach exercise science, inevitably you wind up teaching a nutrition class.
And I’ve taught nutrition, I don’t know a dozen times. And typically when we teach nutrition, I call it Wardwell nutrition because one of the leading textbooks in nutrition is by Wardwell. And it’s the classic macronutrients micronutrients how to read a food label baloney when you don’t teach about baloney but it’s that was you know, it’s a BS term. And while I was passive why passively recognize the term autophagy, you can’t dig into spermidine and not have a deep understanding of autophagy. So that was interesting. And I thought back well, I’ve been teaching nutrition for 30 years now.
And typically in nutrition, you teach a nutrient, and here’s the effect of the nutrient proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water. That’s the typical course. Right? And listen, we teach about vitamin C, because in the 14 to 16 hundred’s, we’re packing people on the boats, they were on the water for a long time, they developed a condition called scurvy. But we figured out if they took lines with them and lemons and citrus, it wasn’t as bad. Well, that’s where we discovered vitamin C, we learned about vitamin E with prisoners and in Japan, we learned so we learn about these micronutrients and their effect. Well, I believe now listen, I research typically it takes 15 to 17 years for research to make its way into what’s called standard of care and medicine.
And the research that’s going on today won’t be part of the standard of care in medicine for 15 years while I’m looking forward to the first nutritional textbook that teaches about the condition of tautology and the fact that you get a tautology not through what you eat, but when what you don’t eat and when you don’t eat. I think that’s a really important part that’s got to come along and we’re early on. I don’t expect to see this textbook for 10 years. But I think it’s an important part of progressive nutrition.
And then we start to look at so we understand calorie restriction, and it’s in Packed on autophagy, now we can start to look at what’s called calorie restriction mimetics. What are nutrients that we can take in that stimulate a toughie G. And spermidine is one of those, um, you know, spermidine is this molecule it’s in every cell of your body men, women, plants and animals. It’s low at birth had peaked about 30, and declines from there on out. But people who age well into their 90s and Centurions have high sperm and iron levels.
And we know that populations that consume high spermidine foods in their diets have higher spermidine levels. And oh, by the way, they live longer, too, we see this in the Blue Zone work. So um, so that’s, you know, that’s kind of how I go from, you know, doing HRV on a bunch of college wrestlers, through selling weed in South Florida into cannabis. You know, there’s a, there’s a connection there. And that’s that connection about helping people live their best lives. And that’s kind of how I operate.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s an awesome story. There’s a lot of lessons just in that itself, I mean, teaching something for 35 years, and being humble enough to know that what you don’t know, is still something that you can learn which a lot of people that are exhausted and burnt out labeled themselves like this, that or the other, and they become labeled, and they become crabs in the bucket. And they don’t want to let the other people get pulled out because they’re identifying with that term.
And I think that’s similar to what you said, the other lesson was listening to your little angels and knowing like, if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t pass the spidey senses and your tingling, then you know, there’s something inherent to listen to, I’m just going to review a little bit for some of the listeners that may not know, and I’ve taught it before, but HRV heart rate variability, you know, the 32nd commercial is, it’s the cadence or the beats between the beats.
And if you’re under sympathetic dominance, you’re gonna have a very low HRV, because it’s, boom, boom, boom, boom, very quick, even though it doesn’t tell you your pulse rate, it just tells you what are the variants between the beats exists, if you’re very adaptable, metaphorically, as well as physiologically, and you can tap into parasympathetic activity, your variance between the beats will be higher. And that’s going to be a better score and a better indication of recovery, a better indication of adaptability, and also not necessarily being under constant fight or flight hormones, which the people that we listen to are, are continually under stress. So I just wanted to kind of clarify that for the listener. Now, what I wanted to kind of get into was, as far as what autophagy is, and then on the flip side, what m tour is, and growth factors.
And I really liked the idea of what you’ve said, it’s not so much and I agree with you sacred cows of the macronutrients and the small meals more frequently to keep your sugar levels stable, although they’re always high. And, you know, the food bullshit, excuse the language pyramid and how, you know, ketchup is one of them, you know, the vegetables on the pyramid, and the RTA. And it’s just these are sacred cows that need to topple by now, already, as far as things go. But as far as the question I’m going to get to is, why why is it so important, as you’re seeing in your research, to be able to tap into a tautology, and how you need to do that with, with not putting your foot on the gas pedal on the brakes at the same time?
Don Moxley: Well, it’s important for the listener to recognize the fact that autophagy when we start talking about autophagy, is a relatively recent discovery, they just gave a Nobel Prize in 2017, to a Japanese researcher that described the processes of autophagy. So the autophagy on the parts that take place in the cell. This is a relatively new science. And now we started to look when you look at longevity research, what we see is that autophagy is one of these. It’s a key element to longevity, that that right now, the only experimental manipulation that you can really do that legitimately extends longevity is calorie restriction.
And this is science. Now, remember, this is a relatively new science to that Clive McKay at Cornell. Back in the mid-50s. He ran out of money in the lab he had he couldn’t feed all his rats. So he fed one set of rats a full diet, he cut the diet on the other half of the rats, and the rats that were getting the partial diet did better than the full feed. It was one of the first places that we see the experimental application of calories. restriction? Well, this has evolved over time it’s taken a while, you know, they did a paper in, in the early 2000s, looking at the 50th anniversary of McKay, and looking at McKay’s work, and we’re starting to see that really start to pop out in the literature as well. But we’re starting to see, we’re starting to see researchers figure out why what is it about calorie restriction that leads to improved longevity? Well, it’s this autophagy process.
And now we’re starting to see some of the autophagy research. Listen, we’ve got some papers in spermidine, and autophagy work that was spermidine supplementation and the increase of autophagy, we see an improvement of cognitive performance, we see a thickening of hippocampal thickness in the brain, which is improved memory, we see improved cardiovascular fitness. Listen, there’s a great paper that I’ll put out there. And I think you can probably put it in the show notes. It’s called spermidine, and health and disease. I think it’s one of the best review papers, when you take a look at cardiovascular benefit, neural benefit, stem cell production increase, there are all these key elements that are a byproduct of the spermidine supplementation and triggering the autophagy process.
And if you think about this, you know, listen, we live in a society now that is energy toxic, we have so much energy around us. It’s leading to toxicity. And we’re trying to understand why that is. And listen, um, when you look at all timers are some of these dementia-based diseases. Listen, we don’t have a dementia drug. the problem in society, we have an energy issue that we have to pay attention to we have so much junk energy available, that autophagy we never have to trigger autophagy, and what we’re finding is that autophagy is a key element. Again, I go back to the textbook example that I believe autophagy will be covered it will get a chapter in the textbooks. What is the toffee g? How do you stimulate it? What are the key elements, and you stimulate it not by what you eat, but what you don’t eat many times, and now we’re starting to see mimetics We’re so you know, again, we see spermidine, we know Sperma nine decreases with age.
And if we and even if you are fasting, if you have low sperm, nine levels consuming sperm, and it increases the autophagy process. We know that now we’re continuing to dive into that research. Again, we’ve got to do most of our work and model organisms, we got secondary indicators in humans. But it’s again, we’re sitting on one of these cutting-edge research elements. That’s really exciting.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it is really exciting. And you know, we have very similar backgrounds in the Exercise Sciences. And I think we both agree that the original biohackers, well, not the original, but the 1970 biohackers were the bodybuilders and the people that could understand that you just don’t continue to lift weights, you have to go through periodization and you have to go through hypertrophy, and then you have to go through rest and recovery and building and growing. And then come Yang and Yang.
And there’s a really important theory, I mean, that goes back to 1000s of years of ancient Chinese or Chinese medicine and Yang Yin Yang. And what I find is genetics haven’t changed at all. But environmentally has changed crazy wise, energetically wise. And we have too many growth factors that stimulate and I tell people like autophagy is really easy to think of thinking about it as the farmer harvest his his his crops at the end of the season. And then he’ll plow the fields and he’ll help the cells or the plants or the stock that didn’t get used up and it will get recycled back into the soils.
And the parts that weren’t used will be composted and reused, just like our body needs to do that. And if we’re not able to clear out these dead cells and these folded proteins and these, I guess, if you will these bacteria or these microorganisms, then you’re not going to be able to recover and rebuild when it comes time. But even more alarming is what we see now are things like iron or Richmond in our foods. glyphosate lowering glutamate, bacteria and in our microbiome, plastics, and BPA is growth hormones and antibiotics and pesticides, you know, just so many things that stimulate the growth factors that it makes it that much more important to be able to tap into a tapa G. So maybe why don’t you teach us exactly Okay, well, where does spermidine fit in?
Because a lot of the people that we work with, the doctors aren’t giving them answers, and they’ve had to become their own advocates. And they really do enjoy not the feeling crappy part of it. But the research and the AHA is that they have of Oh, my gosh, I wish I would have known this earlier. I’ve been taught this as you said, so where is spermidine? For the listeners fitting in in terms of why does it stimulate autophagy?
Don Moxley: Well, the reason spermine is it, what we understand now is it’s a clear autophagy trigger. There’s a set of proteins when we start talking about spermidine. So if you’ve read David Sinclair’s book on lifespan, or if you’ve looked at whether it’s Valter Longo, his book on the longevity diet and the in the fasting, mimicking diet there, you know, there’s a lot of research and starting to touch around the edge of this. But what we know is spermidine is a key trigger to some of the genes that trigger the autophagy pathway.
And these this is significant, it’s more than just the sirtuins or the backlands it’s playing a whole set and I’m not going to go down the genetic rabbit hole here. But it this is happening intracellularly It’s a molecule that needs to be present. Now, what we find is in long-lived populations, they typically are consuming spermidine-rich diets, you find spermidine in the fermented soy product, NATO and if you’ve grown up Japanese and that’s been part of your diet, go crazy. Um, if you’ve grown up in the states and you’ve never had it, it’s you’re gonna find it disgusting. It’s pretty hard to choke down. Or we see it in we extract ours from wheat germ, but we get it from European we German we’ve not been able to do it in the states yet.
And we’re looking, but are we germ is coming from middle Europe, Austria, southern Germany, Northern Italy, Switzerland, the Europeans are much tougher on glyphosate. So we’re able and there’s a range. So a big part of what our company does is, first of all, we have to find spermidine rich fields, not all wheat germ is the same, then we bring that in and we have to we eliminate probably half of what we bring in because the spermidine content isn’t high enough to refine and then what we have, then we refine it with a water-based process, the only thing we use is water and creating our spermidine rich supplement. You can eat wheat germ, you can eat soybeans, you can eat a lot, there are mushrooms that have high permanent contents.
The problem is you don’t know what the content of the spermidine in the product is. That’s the challenge. And that’s what’s created the opportunity for us. So and I want to jump back because you asked me earlier. So autophagy and mtorr. So what we know and you and I have both of you know when you’re working with athletes, you’re typically dealing with someone who’s 30 years or younger, we’re dealing with someone that’s 15 to 25. Maybe if you’ve got a long live pro or someone like that. And you know what, when you’re eating small meals multiple times a day, you are feeding the mTOR pathway, your body is going to be cranking out proteins, there are no two ways about it.
The problem is this. When your body makes protein, it doesn’t make them all the same, and it doesn’t make them all correctly. So if your ribosome Krebs cranks out this one protein with one of the amino acids, that’s not correct, that protein won’t go in won’t go into you. So it’ll just sit there in the cell. This is the beauty of the autophagy process is that when there is a demand made on the system, there’s calorie restriction and there’s energy demand. This is when the autophagy process kicks in and says, oh, let’s go clean up these old proteins that aren’t very valuable anymore.
And let’s go clean up these mitochondria, or these other organelles that just aren’t valuable anymore. And let’s clean that up and let’s put their parts back into circulation as either energy or to build with and that’s where we get a really healthy process. I’m personally most excited about understanding the role of autophagy in dementia in some of these Alzheimer ‘s-like diseases. We’ve got a lot there’s there are two great papers that just came out in the last month looking at this, and that people who consume high sperm and iron levels have lower levels of dementia. And we see an increase in cortical thickness in Alzheimer’s disease.
parts of the brain that get attacked. So you know what, that’s where I’m most excited. We have a paper that came out, I’m not sure it’s in print yet it’s been accepted. But we see that when you have sperm and iron supplementation, you see an improvement in an in toffee G and immune response, particularly with COVID. We see an improvement we so we see the fact that it’s that the immune system is stopping the transmission of that virus at 85 90% of the time.
So we’ve actually got some studies going on in Europe right now looking at this so so clearly, this, as you said earlier, improved the toffee g winds up improving immunity, it winds up improving neural performance, it winds up improving cardiovascular performance, we see an increase in nitric oxide, we see an increase in Appa endothelial cell production and quality.
But we also see an improvement in epithelial stem cells. So when people start taking spermidine, one of the first things they report is improved Hair, Skin, and Nails. your fingernails start growing like crazy, your hair grows faster, and your skin gets better. So that’s one of the benefits that it’s one of the first things we see with the product.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. I’d love to kind of get into you because we’re where I’m, I’m in the field, as the field general, right? So I’m working with clients that are exhausted and burnt out. And by the way, I know that COVID is replicated through m tour. And so if we have all these m tour signaling pathways always being turned on, you are going to have more neural degeneration, more inflammation, more problems. So really, what I want to teach them and learning right now in real-time, is what is the sweet spot?
And there’s no textbook answer in terms of, Okay, how many days do we want to end the tour is not bad, I mean, pregnant, just state, if they didn’t have mtorr, bodybuilders wouldn’t grow, we wouldn’t be able to repair our bodies. This is where now we can link back the HRV to see which way we’re trending to know, hey, I gotta switch this up, if I’ve been doing too much, a toughie, G. And I’ve been too much caloric restricting. And I haven’t been getting my proteins. And I’ve been doing too many things that are cleansing or recycling cells, maybe my heart rate variability starts to slow down or drop. And
Don Moxley: actually, the more I fast, the lower my HRV gets. So when you’re listening, your body recognizes fasting as calorie restriction or fasting is a threat. Your body sees that as a threat. So you’re going to see a drop in HRV, you’re going to see the body say, Hey, we need to get energy. So it’s going to cause you to naturally try to spin out your own energy sources. And listen, that’s one of the beauties when we start to get fat metabolism and we get the beta-hydroxybutyrate. And we get the alpha-ketoglutarate.
And we get the great ketone bodies created. We get sharp mentally, it’s one of the benefits. So So yeah, and what’s going to be interesting as the research goes on, you know, listen, our body likes cycles. It loves cycles, it does not like being static. And when you look at the diurnal process, there’s no doubt in my mind that we’re going to see autophagy linked to the diurnal process. So we’re going to continue to work our way through this and understand this better. One of our challenges right now is we don’t have a great, tougher gene marker. I can’t, I can’t take your blood, I can’t put a wearable on you.
It’s a challenge now. And you know, when we look at fasting, I don’t know what you see with your customers. But, you know, I know when I first started fasting, I was actually living down just north of you. In a one-bedroom apartment by myself, I didn’t have any family that I was having to work with. So doing some kind of crazy meal manipulation was really easy for me. Now that I’m back up north, I live with my wife. She works a little different schedule than I work. My daughter who’s now just finished up her first year of graduate school is back living with us. So coordinating family meals with three different schedules, and fasting can be a challenge.
Now and I don’t know about you the first time I fasted you know I got to where I was going 3045 60 days of solid 18 six, throwing in 24 and 48 hour fasts at least once a week. And I felt great. Wow. What we’re seeing though, is that people who are fasting too much are starting to see a drop in lean mass. And that drop in lean mass that’s Listen, you’ve got to maintain muscle. lean mass for longevity. It’s the number one predictor of quality life is strength and power.
So you want that mtorr process. But we need the toffee g process to constantly clean those cells and make sure that we’re not fighting, that our cells are able to fight the immune process that’s going on that the rest of our body has to protect against. Does that make sense?
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it says, it just speaks to the yin and yang of everything. There’s a Goldilocks zone of not too little, not too much. I think it first comes down to dawn, the fact that what is your goal, and what is your number one challenge, like, if you’re catabolic, and you have problems putting on weight, then you’re going to want to emphasize a little bit more your m tour strategies. Whereas if you’re overweight and insulin resistant, like 75% of the population, yeah, and I think those are surrogate markers, I agree with you.
There are not specific markers, I think there are really good surrogate markers that are correlated with if you’re in a toughie g like knowing about your ketone levels or your glucose ketone index, I think those are good insulin growth factors and fasting insulin are good mtorr markers. But it comes down to what is your personal goal? What’s your age? What are your health challenges? And I agree with you in terms of not just circadian rhythms. But you know, over the millennia, how our bodies have been engineered for feast and famine and how we go through periods of abundance.
And those are the years where we’re harvesting our crops. And we’re able to go through indulgence, I’m sure that certainly the season, certainly the seed, maybe not the season, yes, the seasons, the seasons. And you know, there weren’t refrigerators or 24-hour delivery services, or all of these, you know, lights that would stimulate our pineal gland and create melatonin shifts. So I think we’re dealing with a lot more environmental cues that throw us out of the natural rhythm, and we’ve lost the coherence with the earth. And it takes a behooves us to be that much more aligned with what we have to do proactively.
So I guess the question would be the as far as developing protocols around that, I am teaching my audience and the people that I coach one on one, once we do get a genetic blueprint of what your potentials are, what your susceptibilities are, what rocks to look under, once we get an idea of your, if you will, your scorecard of what are your variables or your analytes that are not just laboratory high or low, but are functionally trending towards a C minus versus a failing grade, and be able to assess what’s going on there. And then be able to come up with a protocol of not driving with your foot on the gas and the brakes at the same time.
And that means, okay, I don’t want you to be doing all of these mtorr stimulating nutrients, lots of proteins, lots of carbs, lots of B vitamins, not regulating your iron. I personally don’t feel that mtorr will ever be shifted off in today’s day and age just because of emf themselves.
Don Moxley: Well, I don’t for you don’t want it Listen, when mTOR shuts down, you’re dead pretty quick. You’ve got I mean, our we’re constantly reforming proteins in our body. The challenge is, is that we know that we make a bad protein, there’s a bad protein ratio, that starts to build up. We’ve got to constantly replace that. So again, it’s your yin and yang constantly driving that process.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Right. So as far as though in your bio, it says that it can be used every day. So I’m just going to be ignorant of this fact and sincerely ask the question. If I don’t want to constantly like I agree as you’ll never turn off mtorr if you could just slow it down enough so that autophagy can actually kick in or don’t overfeed it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Don’t overfeed. But like, how is your experience anecdotally or with this research that the spermidine is doing?
It’s a supplement for daily intake because I’m open to changing my thought process. I really like to use these surrogate markers and these wearables and these data tracking to get an idea and of course, looking at the scorecard how they change and most importantly, subjectively, how are you doing? But I also realize that like you just said, there’s a Cinderella zone or Goldilocks zone of you just can’t be in autophagy all the time, but spermidine life is a product that has been shown to be able to allow m tour go Even though you’re using an autophagy based product every day,
Don Moxley: well, remember spermine nine is going to trigger that. And you’re always going to have the pressures back and forth that with calorie consumption, you’re going to get the insulin-like growth factors, the insulin, you’re going to get the triggers for autophagy, if you then are going to calorie restrict as well, naturally, put that into your diet, you’ve got to have the underlying molecules.
Listen, we don’t need to supplement mtorr it’s in the cellar. Wait, we haven’t figured this out yet. It’s what we know is that there’s been plenty, you know, we don’t need Rictor or Raptor, whether it’s m torque one or M torque two.
So that being said, what we know is that as spermidine drops, autophagy drops. And if you think of protein development, as well as autophagy, being cyclical, you’re going to see those two pressuring each other back and forth. But in the absence of spermidine, the pressure stays on the mtorr side, it doesn’t shift over to the autophagy side. So what we’re finding from our research is that there needs to be a serum level and that we supplement at that level.
I look at you know, I don’t know if you do work with Senolytics whether it’s five to 10, of course, a 10 or, or things like that when we look at the elimination of senescence cells. You know, senescence cells are important from time to time, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of you know, our bodies can stop cancer with senescence cells, so we don’t want to just wipe out our senescent cells, but we do want to clean them out every once in a while. That’s the reason I like that Mayo product Mayo Clinic protocol of using Feiss attendant quercetin for a couple of days take a couple of weeks off and letting the senescent cells do what they need to do. So when we start looking at m tour production versus a tapa G, I think the cycle is shorter.
I think it’s I personally feel it falls into that diurnal process, I’m going to build proteins while I’m feeding, and I’m going to trigger autophagy, some period of time after I stopped feeding. And this is the value of that 16 818, six, maybe 24. Listen, we can’t starve ourselves to immortality. Um, you know, there’s a process that comes in there. And I think it’s important and the what we see spermidine is being a, a base level that declines with age. So it’s about improving that third, third.
Now, I want to go let me go address this a little bit for you. Because when we because you said something earlier that I think is really important. What are your goals? What are your objectives? You know, there was a period of time prior to becoming a father, when I was spending a lot of time worrying about what I look like or as an athlete training to be an athlete and be big and strong and do some of these things. But now that I am, I think of life in three thirds.
The first third we spend learning and the second third, we spend in service to others either as work or, or raising our families. But then there’s a third of life. My wife and I are getting ready to go into that my daughter, you know, we have one child and she’s finishing up grad school. So she will move out of our house probably permanently in a year. And she and I, I don’t ever listen, I love to work. I love what I’m doing. I hope I never retire because I love learning. And this is just the place I like to be. But I’m moving into my third when I’m doing things that I choose to do for myself, not for others, you know, that trip of a lifetime, or I can’t wait.
I told someone the other day. One of the greatest things I enjoyed wasn’t coaching. You know, I’ve coached a lot of kids and a lot of levels. My, my most favorite coaching experience was when I coach my daughter’s eighth-grade field hockey team. It was it was wonderful. And I’ve come in again, I’ve coached Olympians in wrestling, I’ve coached multiple national champions I’ve worked on eighth-grade field hockey was the best. And I’m looking forward to coaching my grandchild’s eighth-grade field hockey team.
So all of a sudden my purpose now I’m actually it’s funny that we got into this because I have an outline for a book that we are putting together called the hallmarks of longevity science. And when we look at the hallmarks I have Are you familiar with Stephen Covey’s The Seven Habits of Highly Well, you’re familiar with his rocks in the jar analogy, right, right. Yeah. What are the big rocks in the jar? In my mind, the four big rocks in the jar are exercises, you cannot ignore them. But the note I have next exercise is to stop exercising to lose weight. Note nobody takes a picture of their scale and hangs it on the wall.
Okay, it’s a horrible goal exercise for what I call trainable life events. that it could be a 3k it could be a 10k it could be a vacation, my trainable life events now I’m starting to train for my daughter’s wedding and my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren. That’s so my goals have shifted to clearly healthspan lifespan, Not I, you know, I’ve lifted lots of weights. I mean, I used to train with Lou Simmons at Westside barbell before it was Westside You know, I’ve moved lots of weight I’ve completed. I’m beyond that. So now all of a sudden, my objectives have shifted to longevity. I am very insulin resistant, I’m diagnosed as a type two diabetic I have to pay attention.
I’m, you know, listen, if a mad famine kicked in you skinny little muscular types, you know, you’re going to be gone before us fat efficient guys go. So. But when we live in an energy toxic environment, I have to be careful. So I’m shifting into my third, we’re looking at what happens hormones. Let me go back to the four rocks exercise. I don’t exercise to benchpress and squat anymore. I exercise for mobility and safety and I exercise for mitochondria production.
So I’ve shifted from my cardio work to where it’s where zone three, four, and five, two are my cardio work is zone two and three now because I’m trying to feed my mitochondria all I can. So exercise, the second rock in the jar, and my book is is food from unprocessed sources. I don’t I don’t get into a vegan carnivore. I feel like I’ve made the statement that in the absence of extinction, there’s there is no evolution, there’s only diversity. And I believe it’s fair that with the diversity we have, some people may do better vegan, some people may be doing better carnivore.
And as you said, you got to figure out what works for you. But what we can agree on is, the more you process food, the worse it is for you. So trying to get stuff, you know, farm to table as much as possible. My third rock in the jar, we put to sleep we call it to sleep, it’s recovery. It’s understanding stress and recovery. I do a lot of work with meditation and floating. And these are key elements for dealing with boosting parasympathetic reaction and recognizing the sympathetic in our lives and factors. You can’t fix bad sleep, you can’t hack, you have to have good sleep, then you can put Caxton on top of that. And then my fourth rock is photobiomodulation I think the amount of light that we get on our skin has become a problem.
So those are my four big rocks. And when you look at longevity, the jar that they’re going into I call purpose, what is your purpose in life. And when you have your purpose, then it gives you a guide for what you do with those four big rocks. And we can bring other things in. I mean, so there are nutritional strategies, there are hacks, at the exercise level, there are hacks at the food level, there are hacks at the light level, and there are hacks at the stress and recovery level. So that’s where biohacking comes into play. And it’s important because our environment has driven us away from our genes from our genetic optimization. You know, you and I were talking earlier about their air conditioning and living in South Florida.
And, you know, Homo sapiens were successful, the genetic set that we have, we’re successful over Neanderthals because we adapted better. Okay, so our genetics, love adaptation. Well, unfortunately, now live environments where we don’t have to adapt. We live in houses with flat floors and don’t even have stairs, you know, so why do people have so many back problems, because they don’t have to pick their knee up above 90 degrees to climb anymore.
So their iliopsoas has spasming and it’s crossing over the sciatic nerve in two different places. And they’re coming to you to get fixed. And the fact is, they should just climb more I mean, if you need that environment, we live in environments that you know, the temperature in our house between summer and winter, when the temperature outside very 60 degrees, our temperature inside varies four degrees. And that’s a problem. It’s we have to hack that somehow. So we understand the value of Heat Shock proteins and cold shock proteins. You know, if you’re watching this and not listening to it, you look over my right shoulder, you see my sauna. You know, it’s important it’s one of them.
It’s one of my important hacks. So you know, that’s where I go back to, you have to have a purpose. You have to have those things that you’re focused on that put pictures on the wall about how you define yourself, and then that will help drive those four key elements. And one of those hacks is understanding, you know, we in our diets, we don’t have enough spermidine. Now, if you live in a Blue Zone, maybe you do and you don’t have to worry about it, but what we found is the rest of us don’t.
And this is what’s that combined with caloric toxicity. We have to hack our way to figure this out so that we can get back into the mtorr, anabolic, the autophagy catabolic process. And spermidine life just happens to be one of those molecules.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer. And I’m thinking to myself, we’ll have to definitely do a part two because I have so many questions to ask you in that. But you know, as complicated as some of the terms you used are Don. It’s not rocket science, right? I mean, common sense ain’t so calm.
And when, when we’re not moving, and we’re isolating and we’re where we’re, anyways, that’s a whole other slippery slope. But we do need to move right? We need to be assertive.
Don Moxley: Go back. Listen, let’s go back to the jar and the four rocks. Okay. It starts with purpose. Yeah. And you know what, you have to sit back and decide my purpose in life is not working for someone else. I have I you know, it was interesting for me when I left Ohio State back in 2018. It was hard because I did not I didn’t want to leave. But you know, Listen, I’ve got the Ohio State tattoo. You know, I’ve my both my brothers went there. My daughter went there. You know, my brother in my parents, sons, and grandsons. We have 16 varsity letters from Ohio State.
We have nine degrees and 16 varsity letters. We all my two brothers and I met our wives there. We’ve got 97 years of marriage, from relationships that we developed at Ohio State, we are true blue and it hurt to leave. But I feel like the universe pushed me away. It said your work here is done. And so I had to sit back and figure out what my purpose is and when you look at my LinkedIn description, you’ll see that I help understand individuals make decisions that lead to the reduction of suffering and the promotion of well people you know, that’s kind of things and, and so while I have a degree in exercise, physiology, understanding mtorr and understanding these things are key.
So the purpose is critical. Listen, pick up something heavy every once in a while, like twice a week, just pick-ups. Don’t get caught up in whether I’m doing CrossFit or something else. Pick up something heavy, make it a regular part. And oh, by the way, go walk. Those two things are transformative. If you have challenges with those and you need to your invite your environment is right. Well maybe you need to put a peloton bike in so you have access to it. Maybe you need to put in some kind of a piece of equipment to help pick up something heavy. It’s listening for me exercise is that simple.
You can throw in yoga on top of that you can throw in a lot of these other things, but pick up something heavy and walk when we look at nutrition. Just start getting your food from unprocessed sources quit buying your meals out of your car window. Start you know you have to learn how to cook Okay, you have to learn and the more you cook, the better you’re able to acquire food from unprocessed sources. When we take a look at sleep and stress learn to go to bed without a TV in your room turn off the lights get the bed at the same time on a regular basis. You know I used to love to sit up and watch you know the tonight show and those shows I used to really enjoy that but you know what?
When I understand sleep and recovery I have a DVR and if I really need to see if it’s there on the internet and I can get it when the when those when the sun’s up and then finally light listen when I was living in Florida um I am a brown being I am I have a Native American background and the sun my skin loves the sun but when I’m up north I have to have hacks for that my wife and I have a Juve unit we put in near-infrared unit one of the most my Juve unit will lower my blood sugar more than insulin.
Think about that. Now I’m not an insight I had bad knee surgery back in September I want it with a Mersa infection from so I was very ill in September and October and I couldn’t walk and my diet was horrible in my blood sugar got out of control and I had to start to use insulin just to maintain that. Well, I’ve stopped using it now because I’m doing it all with movement and with what I eat, but you know, I pay close attention to what I use this CGM, and light is going to become even more dramatic as we move on. So. So those are the four big rocks, but they go into a jar called purpose.
Dr. Joel Rosen: And that’s the awesome answer, I would just elaborate your fourth rock on Photomodulation and put frequency modulation and frequency awareness because EMF’s You know, that’s a specially with 5g that’s a whole other conversation. But that has been shown to stimulate mtorr. It has been shown to cause insulin spikes, and we are bombarded by it on a daily basis and there’s no escaping it. But we can certainly be proactive with it, we can put our phones on airplane mode, we can put our routers on a wireless timer, or we can resync it up to the wires. We can have a two-day three day week sabbatical.
And we’ll still live you know, we grew up with these things without having these things. But there’s I got a run, I appreciate your time, I will put a link to be able to how to access getting spermidine under the show notes so that people can try it. And I would hope that you and I can meet Don for part two because I have so much more to go with you. But I appreciate your time. And I appreciate all that you’re doing. I love your mission and your purpose. And I just want to thank you for being here today.
Don Moxley: Well, again, I really appreciate the opportunity. I’m looking forward to the next one. And spermidine life if you’re looking online, there’ll be a link in the show notes. But spermidine life.us. If you go to spermidine life calm, you’ll go to our Austrian site. We don’t have the geo-locating worked out yet. But if you want to see it if if you don’t speak German, it’s better to go to spermidine live.us. That’s our US site and kind of where we operate.
Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Thank you so much, Don. I appreciate it. Have a great day. You too.
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