Frank and Stan Chats: Recent Episodes
Frank Norris and Stan Johnson
A weekly chat about all things education. Frank Norris is the education and skills adviser to the Northern Powerhouse Partnership and Stan Johnson is an independent adviser. The gents have been friends since 1995 and began their weekly chats as the national lockdown began in the UK in March 2020.
The joy of our weekly chats lies in the contributions made by our amazing guests. This week is no exception as we are joined by a former HMI, Mathematics subject lead and specialist adviser, Steve Wren. Steve has been keeping a keen eye on Ofsted's new inspection framework and has shared his insights on social media. Today he focuses on the problems around attendance and behaviour. Stan gets things rolling by considering how compliant schools and their leaders are, even when there is much to be disgruntled by. He considers what would happen if a school didn't go out of its way to work openly with inspectors. Frank closes the chat with his growing dislike of SUV drivers parking on yellow lines so that their children can avoid a two-minute walk to school. He also draws attention to two headteachers who regularly call this action out despite it not being in their job description.
It's a belting chat. Enjoy, we believe you will!
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The SPOTLIGHT editions of the Frank and Stan Chat provide us with a chance to meet colleagues with one topic of conversation. The 30th edition is with Sian Hampton and Alice Gregson. They have created a System Leadership programme that is focused on a range of partners delivering services for children and families. It brings educators together with those from health, social care, housing and other partners to consider how jointly they can contribute more if they are better coordinated.
The chat considers how previous attempts have been marginally successful and what is currently being attempted. Sian and Alice get a chance to chat about their new programme. If you are interested this is the weblink you will need. https://elevatingleadership.co.uk/programmes/
Enjoy.
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It is always a joy to have John Malynn back as a guest on the chat. He is the only senior civil servant we know of to lead on accountability for the DfE, including its relationship with Ofsted, and also be invited to join the inspectorate as a key policy adviser. A rather unique set of experiences.
With so much happening in politics this week we focus on the important work of the Education Select Committee and their meeting with Sir Martyn Oliver on Tuesday. Before we get into that ,Stan considers what he gained from a restful week in Spain and how it influenced his thinking on the drive for better attendance. John then considers a host of DfE announcements, why they were made and who will monitor their introduction. Frank then considers how the Chief Inspector wanted to focus on provision rather than outcomes in considering how effective Ofsted is in managing staff wellbeing.
It's a lively and lengthy chat but please stick with it cos there are some interesting insights in how government works and how the relationship with the inspectorate has changed over time.
Enjoy
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It was a pleasure to welcome Jill Munday to the Frank and Stan Chat. Jill has had a varied and interesting career and met Frank when they were Assistant Divisional Managers working on local authority inspections with Ofsted. Since retiring Jill has been a passionate supporter of The Malagiri School in Nepal. This Spotlight chat covers how she got involved, how she currently supports their work and what she has gained from the experience. She’s visiting the school again in November. It is a fascinating chat and enables us to consider the lessons for English education at a time of challenge and change. If you would like to donate to the school, there is a link on their website www. https://malagirischool.uk
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Part 2 of the chat due to a power cut during the recording. Stan is away this week so Frank had the chance to chat with Dave Smith, a former colleague in the Coop Group Press and Media team, someone Frank worked with frequently when he was the CEO of the Coop Academies Trust. Our relaxed chat covers how best to use the media, including social media, for the benefit of the school and how it is really not acceptable to have a head in the sand approach. Dave offers some straight forward advice and tackles the problem where a few headteachers consider themselves to be great communicators when in fact they are not. As with many things in this area it is important to know what to do in advance of a problem arising. We also cover how a proactive approach can support the handling of the increasing number of complaints schools are receiving. There is a link at the end to a chat Frank had with Joe Dundas about marketing and communication a few years ago. The video has had nearly 400 views and can be broken down into chunks. Enjoy.
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Part 1 due to a power cut during the recording: Part 2 follows.
Stan is away this week so Frank had the chance to chat with Dave Smith, a former colleague in the Coop Group Press and Media team, someone Frank worked with frequently when he was the CEO of the Coop Academies Trust. Our relaxed chat covers how best to use the media, including social media, for the benefit of the school and how it is really not acceptable to have a head in the sand approach. Dave offers some straight forward advice and tackles the problem where a few headteachers consider themselves to be great communicators when in fact they are not. As with many things in this area it is important to know what to do in advance of a problem arising. We also cover how a proactive approach can support the handling of the increasing number of complaints schools are receiving. There is a link at the end to a chat Frank had with Joe Dundas about marketing and communication a few years ago. The video has had nearly 400 views and can be broken down into chunks. Enjoy.
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Both of us look forward to Aelwyn's annual visit to the Frank and Stan Chat. Always well prepared, challenging and at times controversial Aelwyn is, as my wife says, a proper HMI. After over 20 years of working for Ofsted in various roles, he retired a few years ago, but he remains committed to his desire for all children and young people to succeed.
Stan gets things rolling as he considers a couple of complaints about services he has received recently. The difference in the way he felt after both of them is quite striking. He considers whether schools can learn from the starkly different outcomes.
Aelwyn then considers how strongly schools are committed to enrichment activities and how things have changed over time in terms of what some staff offer to their pupils. He recalls in detail his attempts to coach a rugby team when his talents were possibly better suited to music.
With time short, Frank lays a marker down for the next chat when he draws attention to the manager positions at his beloved Southend Utd and Southampton FC. There is much to learn from those two situations at the moment.
And yes, we are chatting to Aelwyn about another appearance in May 2027.
Enjoy, cos it's a belter.
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Frank began working with Alice when she invited him to be the co-leader of a leadership programme with her for Forum Strategy. They struck it off straight away and enjoyed a few years collaborating and sharing connections to improve the impact of their leadership work. Alice is driven by a desire to share and listen to others and her relaxed approach comes across very strongly in this week’s chat. She has recently commenced a new role away from Forum Strategy so it was good to catch up.
Stan gets things rolling by reflecting on the recent SPOTLIGHT chat with Malcolm Greenhalgh who challenged us to think more carefully on the importance of transition and the need for, what he called ‘Inclusive Flexibility’. Stan digs into the available research to determine whether the aspects he considers to be fundamental to good transition are borne out. He confirms they are but reflects on the academic descriptions used to explain quite straightforward approaches.
Alice considers the recent local election results and their potential for change in the short and longer term for education and those leading schools, Colleges and settings. We consider whether the achievements of the current government have been explained well enough and Frank expresses a belief that a lack of radical approaches to press and media ownership are not helping.
Frank brings the chat to a close by reflecting on the PM’s work and how he is trying to manage conflicting advice. He relates this to the work of a SLT in schools where there is a need for private dissent but public support for leaders. If this is eroded then those being led begin to feel an erosion of power and influence.
Frank and Stan found the chat fascinating. Alice was a great guest and brought the best out of the hosts. She will be back in w few weeks as a SPOTLIGHT Guest with another colleague, and we can’t wait.
Enjoy.
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An absolute privilege to be joined by Malcolm Greenhalgh, a former Primary school teacher who went on to lead one of England's largest independent inspection companies contracted to Ofsted and is now leading Incyte, a school improvement consultancy. Malcolm provided us with a helpful steer on what he was going to discuss and Ive copied it here.
Inclusive Flexibility
Like most I chat to about family and particularly about our children and grandchildren the chat always turns to the concerns we have about their future. And, in particular, how are they going to survive in such a dynamic world influenced by the impact of AI on the perception of truth, or how international criminal gangs are taking control over the lives of the average hard working person. The chats are always tinged with a significant sense of sadness as our society seems to be walking blindly into a state of chaos where there is great disregard for the laws created to ensure the world we live in is civilised and focussed on the well-being of all rather than well-being of some. There is also a sense of dismay when the chat turns to politics which also seems to focus on those that operate on personal gain rather than working together harmoniously for the well-being of all.
However, it is so easy to criticise but much harder to identify well thought out solutions to these mega issues.
Those of us in education may feel a great burden on our shoulders to provide our pupils with hope for a successful future in life that focuses on a positive contribution to society as a whole rather than a negative one. After all, isn’t this why we became involved in education in the first place?
To achieve this altruistic goal is a conundrum that educationalists around the world are faced with. Most fall into a trap of identifying solutions based on the same start point as we have always started from and then struggling to find the answers that will ensure our system of education is inclusive, equitable and fair, ensuring all pupils have the chance to achieve the goal of making a positive impact on society as a whole. The result is that we simply despair that we are not achieving what we set out to achieve.
In England, I always felt a sense of positivity during the 20th century and early part of the 21st century that we were moving in the right direction, we were making changes that did give all our pupils a fair chance of finding a life after school that they could use their skills, knowledge and understanding to make the positive contribution to society that we so want them to make enabling them to live a happy and fulfilled life. Yes, we did make mistakes when experimenting with new approaches to create an equitable system, but the direction towards the goal was always a positive one in the end.
However, the 100 years or so of progression came to an abrupt decline after the expert panel’s divisive conclusions in 2012 and the will of Gove to turn the education clock back to something more akin to Victorian education principles rather than those needed in a modern, fast moving world.
Although many countries around the world follow a similar process of schooling there are others that are taking decisions that will help to prepare the current population of pupils for the world they will meet when they leave full-time education.
What we need to consider in England is how we change our education system into one that has inclusivity and equity at its heart and meets the decisive individual needs of very different pupils.
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It is a privilege to have the chance to chat colleagues who have had impressive careers and are now making a difference through their support for others on their leadership journey. Today, we chatted to Glyn Potts, a former Headteacher who has been a guest while a headteacher on our weekly chat. He was joined by Neil Jurd, the former military senior officer and author of The Leadership Book and a previous guest. Neil has developed the Leader-Connect online platform, and both are now collaborating on a new leadership programme for school leadership teams.
The chat covers their work in developing the new leadership programme and why we all feel that many existing programmes do not prepare senior leaders well enough for the ‘white heat’ moments they encounter. Glyn and Neil explain how they have recently worked with the entire senior leadership team at Dallam School, using it as an example, and what they believe staff have gained from the short and intense development programme. Oh, by the way, their programme leads to a formal qualification from the Institute of Leadership.
Enjoy.
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This is a special edition of the Frank and Stan Chat SPOTLIGHT edition because we are joined by someone who we have both worked with. Joshua Mangas is a senior education and governance leader with over 15 years' experience across schools,
training providers, and public sector partnerships. He currently leads governance development and strategy for over 500 schools across Lancashire at Lancashire County Council, and serves as Chair of Governors at St Andrew's C of E Primary in Ramsbottom.
Before moving into governance, Joshua was Assistant Principal at Co-op Academy Walkden where he met Frank and Stan. Frank was the CEO of the trust that adopted the academy and Stan was one of its trustees.
While at the academy Josh doubled the national average in post-16 apprenticeship progression and was personally described as "exemplary" by Ofsted. He has won multiple national awards for careers education and has acted as a technical advisor to MPs, Ofsted, and the DfE on governance and transformation strategies.
He founded the Governance Assurance Framework because he saw the same pattern across hundreds of schools: governance was the only function in school improvement without a system.
During our chat Josh explains what the Governance Assurance Framework is and how it is organised into 47 governance elements across 11 governance functions and falls into three stages. It is free to all schools and not just to those in Lancashire.
You can find out more here
https://governanceassurance.co.uk
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It's quite rare for a guest to have to drop out of a planned visit to the Frank and Stan Chat but that happened recently so we used the World Wide Web to ask for volunteers. We’re pleased to report that a few people responded. We were then presented with a problem. How do you select which one? We decided to choose the first person who'd replied and that was Joe Pardoe.
Joe has a fascinating back story and a varied career in education. He explains all of this at the start of the chat. We were particularly interested in his experiences working at School 21. We explained how well we knew Liz Robinson, a colleague closely linked to School 21 and her work as co-founder of Big Education. Joe explained brilliantly was a fascinating time it was and how it continues to strongly influence his work.
The chat moves on to the regular slot of ‘what’s caught our eye/s this week?’
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Stan drew attention to the RISE advisers and the distances some have been expected to travel to support schools. He explains the fundamental weaknesses in this approach including its inefficiencies. He then wonders why existing school improvement services that exist locally have not been brought into the RISE programme?
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Joe, switches the issue of ‘what’s caught our eye’ to 'what hasn’t caught our eye? He wonders why the school admission notification date for the Primary phase appears to have got such little attention. He points out that for his family, it has been a hot topic on local Whatsapp groups with parents asking for advice and support and wondering what they will do if they don’t get their first choice?
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Frank then considers the appointment of Matthew Purves as the Ofsted Director charged with leading the development of the MAT/SAT inspection Framework. He explains why the appointment may rest heavy for those involved in the Caversham Primary School tragedy and questions why some fresh talent wasn’t sought for such a challenging role?
It’s a friendly, supportive, and we hope interesting chat. Joe was a great guest.
Enjoy
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Our guests this week are Alan Braven and Anthony Benedict. Anthony is CEO of Ambition Community Trust and Executive Head Teacher of Tameside Pupil Referral Service, with 27 years of experience in education.
Alan is a recently retired Executive Headteacher of Endeavour Federation, which provides specialist SEMH (Social, Emotional, and Mental Health) provision in Manchester. They are co-authors of the book 'Educating Everyone: An Introduction to Relational Inclusion in Schools'
This week's chat about education and leadership includes the following issues:
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Should Martin's Law, when introduced in 2027, be a shared responsibility between the Headteacher/CEO and the Governing Body /Trust Board?
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An FOI to the DfE reveals what they view a successful school to be. It's a disconcerting and deeply troubling picture.
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The White Paper may be a signal of a step forward, but the Inclusion Hubs appear to be poorly thought through.
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Can we have a commitment to inclusion when we still expect parents/carers to buy school uniform that is so expensive?
An engaging, lively and respectful chat between colleagues feeling comfortable with each other.
Enjoy.
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In May 2025, Frank met Ellen Mukwewa at a conference, and they followed this up with a virtual chat or two. During one the chats Ellen explained that she and her good friend Michelle Baker had created a new organisation bringing together those involved in the non-association independent school sector. As this was an issue the Frank and Stan Chat had not covered on a regular basis it seemed a good opportunity to set up a SPOTLIGHT edition to better understand the sector.
This SPOTLIGHT delves into a sector that is poorly understood by many but is a crucial element in supporting many children and young people with a diverse range of needs. What follows is a fascinating discussion.
Enjoy, and we hope learn more about their newly formed alliance, their upcoming conference and their ambition for the future.
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It is always a pleasure to have a previous guest return to our chat so that we can develop further some key points from the initial chat. Cathal Lynch joined us in March 2025 and received some of the highest viewing and listening figures in recent times. He's an engaging and deeply committed colleague who has focused on wellbeing in schools in recent years. The Wellbeing Quality Mark is well worth considering www.wbqm.co.uk
This chat considers the financial effectiveness of some high-profile trusts that have encountered financial challenges in recent weeks. Stan and Cathal let rip with Frank acting more like a BBC journalist. We should add that many trusts are well-led and financially secure, but there are still some lessons to learn from recent issues and problems. Frank closes the chat with reference to a recently published research paper into 'stuck' schools, a phrase he personally dislikes. TURNING AROUND ‘STUCK’ SCHOOLS IN ENGLAND: EFFECTIVE LEADERSHIP IN EXTREMELY CHALLENGING CIRCUMSTANCES by Bernadette Munoz and Melanie Ehren challenges the idea that support from afar is unlikely to be effective. A message perhaps for the RISE programme.
Enjoy.
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Rebecca Leek, poet, musician, former Headteacher of three schools, broadcaster and author of The School-Ready Governor returns to the chat. She was a guest in March 2025 and made a very favourable impression, bringing a wide range of insights on education and leadership. It's a timely chat with World Book Day on Thursday 5th March.
Rebecca explains how her life has changed in some respects since our last chat and how she is engaging in so many more things. These include;
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creating a podcast that focuses on poetry called 'The Ditty Bag' https://rebeccaleek.substack.com/podcast
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learning to play the accordian, and;
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performing it in a band. She continues to be involved in the Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association.
This week's chat starts with Stan explaining why Martin's Law continues to be an issue, which he feels isn't getting sufficient attention. He draws on some interesting examples of how schools have tried to be innovative in addressing possible risks to pupil and staff safety. Rebecca makes clear that risk assessment and mitigation are proactive and positive measures.
Rebecca then considers the implications for SEND within the recent White Paper. She is concerned about the sense of universality that embraces the report and the difficulties in managing parent and carer expectations moving forward. We also discuss how effective a national training programme for SEND will be and the implication it conveys, that schools are not effective in managing the issues.
Frank completes the discussion by considering what he learned from 4 months of interim CEO work for a small trust in Greater Manchester.
An interesting and broad ranging discussion. Sorry, it went over the 35 minutes limit, but we felt it was worthwhile. We hope you agree.
The various links Rebecca referenced in the chat can be found below
www.rebeccaleek.com
Podcast: The Ditty Bag
Author: The School Ready Governor - Bloomsbury
Exec. Director: Suffolk Primary Headteachers' Association
Find Rebecca on X and Instagram
And a new project she is crowdfunding for: 'Elizabeth Fry Stops By'
https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/p/elizabeth-fry-stops-by
Enjoy
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Frank has known Mel since 2013, has observed her teaching, leading staff training and contributing strongly to developments in a number of schools. She's an energetic, gifted and committed colleague. When Frank and Stan realised she had published a book, we thought it was a good time to invite her and her co-author Andy Buck, to sit down and explain why they felt a focus on supply teachers and cover supervisors was a good topic.
What followed was much more than just a chat about those specific staff roles, but more an explanation as to what effective teaching looks like, what skills are necessary and how senior leaders should perhaps do more to support. Mel draws on her many years of teaching, but also a period when she undertook supply cover in another secondary school in North Manchester and how she needed to draw on her experience to have a positive impact.
We discover the role that Andy played in encouraging Mel to sit down and write the book in collaboration with him. The section of the chat at 20 mins where Mel explains her teaching approach is well worth ten minutes of every person who leads a class. At under £10 for a copy of the book, it is something every school should have a copy of.
Sit back and enjoy the chat. It's a belter.
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Six months ago, Frank and Stan met Steve Kirkpatrick in a rather nice hotel in Worsley, Gt Manchester. Frank had become aware of an application Steve and a colleague had developed that supports school self-evaluation. It appears to take some of the back-breaking and tedious work undertaken by senior leaders in developing a robust self-evaluation statement. Since we met, Steve has further improved the product and has increased the number of schools adopting it. We thought it was time to learn more about his background, the application and where it might progress. Stan was away on holiday, so the chat was with Frank.
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When we started the Frank and Stan Chat in May 2020, we thought it would last a week or two. It was a way for the two friends to keep in touch during the various Covid lockdowns. Astonishingly, the chats have now reached the 250 mark. We never planned to have a certain guest for this special edition. To be honest, we don't work in that way. Setting up the chats relies on a number of diaries coming together, but we were pleased to have the amazing Paul Ainsworth with us for this special chat. Paul has been a guest twice before and we have found his support and engagement an important part of why we continue to meet every week and record the chats.
This recording is slightly different because we reflect on the chats and how they developed, we than have Paul discussing an article he had published earlier that day where he considers the outcomes of the first batch of Ofsted inspections and then it closes with Frank returning to Chat No. 102 where his brother, a former HMI with Estyn shares what he would put in Room 101.
A lovely discussion and a suitable one for a chat that is always meant to be kind and reflective.
Enjoy.
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When we started the Frank and Stan Chat in May 2020, we thought it would last a week or two. It was a way for the two friends to keep in touch during the various Covid lockdowns. Astonishingly, the chats have now reached the 250 mark. We never planned to have a certain guest for this special edition. To be honest, we don't work in that way. Setting up the chats relies on a number of diaries coming together, but we were pleased to have the amazing Paul Ainsworth with us for this special chat. Paul has been a guest twice before and we have found his support and engagement an important part of why we continue to meet every week and record the chats.
This recording is slightly different because we reflect on the chats and how they developed, we than have Paul discussing an article he had published earlier that day where he considers the outcomes of the first batch of Ofsted inspections and then it closes with Frank returning to Chat No. 102 where his brother, a former HMI with Estyn shares what he would put in Room 101.
A lovely discussion and a suitable one for a chat that is always meant to be kind and reflective.
Enjoy.
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A fascinating chat this week with Richard Ronksley, CEO of Altus Education Partnership based in and around Rochdale. The multi-academy trust was established in April 2017 by the governing body of Rochdale Sixth Form College, an outstanding A level provider established in 2010. In 2019, the Trust opened a new free school - Edgar Wood Academy - which serves the local community in Middleton and Heywood. In 2022, Kingsway Park High School joined and then in 2023, the first primary school, Bamford Academy got on board. Caldershaw Primary School is the most recent member to join in July 2025.
Richard provides an assured and considered approach when discussing the impact of strong post-16 provision in an area. We consider how highly effective Colleges lift ambition and provide access to further education and the workplace. He explains how his career was largely about walking a particular path in a particular way and taking opportunities as they arise.
Stan considers the impact of Sir Ken Robinson on his thinking and how his work, including the various keynotes that have been recorded, have been an inspiration with an emphasis on creativity. Richard then draws attention to an 18th Century Catholic guidance book he saved from a bonfire and how the instructions largely remain relevant today. Frank then reflects on a recent discussion with some trade union and professional association leaders, where he was unguarded and frustrated. He also draws attention to the introduction of the book Taking Back Control 3 by Paul Garvey. The introduction was written by Edmund Barnet-Ward, a governor at Caversham Primary School. It is a tour de force and worth reading.
We hope you enjoy the chat.
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Mel Ainscow is an eminent academic and practitioner who is particularly interested in the universal challenge of developing forms of education that make a difference for all children and young people, no matter their characteristics or backgrounds. Drawing on his extensive work in the UK and overseas, Mel explains the six critical aspects that need to be embraced as part of a more effective approach to ensuring that every child matters and they matter equally.
During the discussion Mel explains how some existing policy positions and historical approaches hinder progress in ensuring greater equity and inclusion. He is at pains to argue that context matters because social factors, political factors and cultural factors impinge on potential improvement. He draws on some recent work where effective cooperation and collaboration have encouraged more schools to share their knowledge and approaches. He then ponders why less progress in tackling issues beyond the school gate have not been tackled. He closes the chat with optimism as he recalls recent progress in Dundee and the Merseyside Region.
Mel is always good value. He's engaging and realistic. We hope the chat is helpful and don't forget his most recent book "Reforming Education Systems for Inclusion and Equity' is available at all good bookshops, including online.
Enjoy
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It is always a pleasure to welcome a guest onto the Frank and Stan Chat who actually watches our weekly chats regularly. Laura McPhee is Director of Education at the University Schools Trust in London. She's a former Headteacher who is committed to social justice and also lectures at the South Bank University. She's currently finalising her second book before it goes to publication later this year. It follows her first book, which was very well received, called 'Tackling Poverty and Disadvantage in Schools'.
The chat begins with Laura explaining her career journey before we break with tradition and ask her, 'What has caught her eye this week?' She explains the optimism she felt when the government published its long-awaited violence against women and girls (VAWG) strategy on 18th December 2025, This followed a clear manifesto commitment to halve this abuse within a decade. Laura explained how the timing of the release of the strategy was unfortunate, being so close to the Christmas break. She is expecting schools to begin to consider any necessary changes in their approach shortly. She was shocked, however with the way the media and social media responded and immediately took a polarising viewpoint.
Stan considers the difficulty older citizens face in using a largely digital system within the NHS. Frank celebrates the amazing evening he watching 'Singing in the Rain' at the Royal Exchange Theatre as well as the good news that northern railways are likely to improve and places are going to be better connected. It is going to be a long wait, but he hopes schools will begin to consider the employment opportunities and help deliver the improvements.
A great chat. Enjoy
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It has taken a little while to agree on a slot but, at last Adrian Bethune, founder of Teachappy, part-time Primary School teacher, Lead author for Oxford University Press' International Wellbeing Curriculum, Deputy Chair of the strategic board for Well Schools, Associate lecturer at Oxford Brookes University, Wellbeing Governor at Broughton Community Schools and most importantly, father to two young boys joins our chat. And what a brilliant guest he turns out to be. In fact, the discussion around pupil and teacher wellbeing engulfs the conversation so much that we only have time for Adrian to share his 'what's caught your eye' this week slot.
The conversation considers some of the practical issues that can support better wellbeing for staff, but this then leans into how teaching staff can support their pupils better in managing their own physical and emotional wellbeing. Adrian draws on international comparisons and considers the vast array of research on the topic of well-being in making a case for it to be more prominent in judging how effectively schools are led.
Adrian draws attention to a book he is currently reading called 'Poor' by Katriona O'Sullivan. He explains how the author draws on her struggles as a child and how they continue to impact her through adult life. Frank then recalls the work of Kerry Hudson called 'Lowborn' that follows a similar vein. These act as a timely reminder of the reality of deep poverty.
A brilliant chat. Adrian has agreed to return to the chat, and we are very keen to make this happen.
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Happy New Year! We are delighted to upload a fascinating chat we had with Dame Kathy August. Kathy is a former Headteacher, a senior local education authority leader, Manchester's first academy CEO, former Board member at Ofsted and Honorary Visiting Professor at Salford Business School. She's also an author and now works as an independent adviser. So, an impressive and varied career which comes to light during a wide ranging chat.
Stan gets things moving by considering 'survivor bias'. He reflects on the choices made by politicians and education leaders who are heavily influenced by their own education experiences. These are usually viewed as successful. Stan makes the point that more attention needs to be given to those failed by the system to better understand what needs to be changed to help them succeed, therefore avoiding inherent 'survivor bias.
Kathy then reflects on the proposal to introduce MAT inspections. She's in favour but highlights the dangers and pitfalls in the proposal. She is concerned how a value for money judgement would be reached and how the associated inspection Framework would be developed. Frank explains how MAT inspections could be used to reduce the impact and number of school inspections.
Frank then considers a quote he saw from Neil Jurd, author of The Leadership Book and former guest on the Frank and Stan Chat. We discuss the impact of influencers and Frank wonders whether he is such a person. Kathy offers insight into the negativity of such individuals. The quote is copied here
'I am sometimes asked to account for the success of influential people whose leadership style is so different from the inclusive and positive leadership style that I advocate. The usual examples are self-serving politicians whose style is divisive and egotistical, or further along the same scale, dictators, and despots. But of course, there are self-centred, narcissistic, and egotistic people thriving in senior positions in all walks of life. You may know some, and their energy and impact are likely to be negative.
These people inhabit senior positions, but their intrinsic motivation is usually self-centred; they lead in order to serve their own purposes. For their own recognition and wealth, rather than for any greater good. In my experience, these people do not lead in the truest sense of the word. I call this 'false leadership'; it is presented as leadership, and it looks like leadership from a distance, but it lacks the meaning, substance and positivity of the real thing.'
There is so much more covered in the chat but you will have to watch or listen to find the gems.
Enjoy.
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The final Frank and Stan Chat of 2025 sees them chatting with Jan Allen, a former Headteacher of a large secondary school in Rochdale and now the Director of the Education Community Partnership. Jan decided to step away from headship at a time when many would have decided to stay. She had achieved a Good Ofsted but felt she needed a new challenge. As someone committed to the community she served, she decided to try and support students and young people who face multiple and considerable challenges through working with voluntary agencies and charities. She admits the recent experiences have provided a deeper insight into the impact of poverty and the challenges young people face.
Stan considers the Reform Party's proposals to utilise the spaces available in rarely used churches to help address the SEND crisis. He believes it is a crazy and ill-considered idea. Jan then reflects on the well-publicised Safeguarding report on the approaches to behaviour management at Mossbourne MVP in London. We all consider the response from the government's behaviour tsar over the issue and how the report author appears to have successfully held a secure handle on the issues. Frank then reflects on an article he recently published by Forum Strategy that focuses on the importance of the community.
It's a wide-ranging discussion. We hope you enjoy it. We are back in early 2026. Happy festive greetings from us both.
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Since 2020, the Frank and Stan Chat has been fortunate to have Eric Craven, a former Senior HMI, and more recently, an acclaimed poet, as a guest. Eric's observational and reflective approach makes his poems accessible, humorous and highly enjoyable. Last year, Stan composed a poem, and this year he offers the same again. So, four Eric poems and one from Stan, entwined with some general chat, generally focused on education and leadership. What more do you need to lift spirits as we head into the festive period. Enjoy.
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This week we were fortunate to have Lois McClure, an amazing colleague who has worked at the Coop Group for 13 years and took an apprenticeship route into her career. She explains how she became aware at College that she didn't want to go to university even though there was pressure from the teachers to do so. She knew she wouldn’t enjoy 'going to lectures and then going back to a room to write an essay about it'. So, she embarked on a varied career with the Coop which saw her winning a number of national awards as an apprentice, speaking to large audiences about her work and the value she places on cooperative values as well as accepting any new challenge with a 'Yes mentality'.
Some parts of the chat are worthy of sharing with students thinking of apprenticeships as well as emphasising the way she embraces new challenges. It is ok to feel nervous.
Stan considers the learning he gained from a conference he attended the day before on workplace psychology and Frank draws attention to Alex, a follower of the chat who shared their Spotify Wrapped outcomes which saw over 450 minutes listening to our chat in the past year. Amazing. We would love to have this colleague along as a guest.
With just two more Frank and Stan Chats before the Christmas break we have begun reflecting on some of the many highlights this year. We will share these in the two remaining editions.
Thank you for your support.
Enjoy!
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In January 2021, the gents were connected to Henry May, a social entrepreneur based in Bogotá. Henry had moved to Colombia to begin social projects to improve the lives of less fortunate young people. He set up Coschool, a social enterprise focused on creating and implementing experiential learning programs. His teaching experience in London and his own personal education journey helped him realise how important the non-academic aspects of education were. He also knew how powerful sport could be in encouraging young people to engage more fully with education. He set up Coschool and the Huracan Foundation to achieve his ambition of a fairer life for all.
Henry has a clearly defined education philosophy, and it is refreshing to hear a colleague explain so cogently what many educators believe in the UK but feel unable to express.
Stan kicks off by explaining how shocked he was to find how AI can manipulate images for sexual gratification. The chat considers whether banning things helps. Henry then explains how character education, a young person's wellbeing and opportunities for social beneficial activities increasingly play an important part in Colombian education. Frank then considers how two words can change the responses to attendance data.
It's a belting chat. Henry has agreed to return to our chat. We can't wait.
Enjoy
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One of the great joys for those of us involved in the Frank and Stan Chat is that some amazing educators are willing to spend some time chatting to us about the things that interest them. On occasions, we feel as though we know quite a bit about their area of interest, but today was slightly different. We were joined by Mark Philips, a former Senior HMI and National Lead for Music, who was able to draw on a vast range of experience and insight. The chat is useful for those with an interest in the arts, particularly, music but it will also be useful for those who worry about a balanced curriculum and whether opportunity is really for all.
Stan gets things moving by considering the changes that will need to be made by schools to accommodate the demands of Martin's Law. Mark then reflects on the city of Manchester, its vibrancy, its welcome and the way it has transformed into an economic success story. Frank then considers the place of 'carousels' in the school curriculum. This is where Mark really comes to the fore.
Enjoy and share.
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With over 250 weekly Frank and Stan Chat, including nearly 20 SPOTLIGHT editions, the bar is high in terms of guests making a highly positive impression. What becomes clear in this SPOTLIGHT with Les Walton is that there is a highly experienced colleague with a clear philosophy and a burning ambition to encourage collaboration and cooperation. In an earlier part of his life he led a Secondary school, a College, set up Schools North East and advised a number of PMs on education policy. If you have a spare 40 minutes I suggest you sit back and listen carefully to his insight and reflect on its relevance in your school or College. One of the very best Chats we have been fortunate to undertake. Enjoy.
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This is a really important weekly chat because every year we invite Carolyn Eyre, a professional colleague well informed in the area of child protection and safeguarding. Her chats always cover areas that we have missed, and highlights changes that are afoot. She believes we are at the start of a storm, and many appear unaware that the storm is coming.
Stan considers the likely impact of the government setting an expected national standard of 75% for children to reach 'a good level of development' in Early Years. He references Goodhart's law, which states, "when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure". Carolyn then explains what changes and proposed laws, currently being progressed through Parliament, will have a significant impact on Keeping Children Safe. She also unpicks skilfully Ofsted's weaknesses in how safeguarding is inspected. Frank then considers the research published by the University of Manchester in October 2025, 'Lost learning: Prevalence, inequalities and outcomes of internal exclusion in mainstream secondary schools' by Emma Thornton, Qiqi Cheng, Ola Demkowicz and Neil Humphrey, which examines the reasons for isolation, who are more often given it and its impact on those students and those who are not. The results are surprising and challenging.
You would expect us to say how good the chat is, but I suspect there is quite a lot in this discussion which would be of interest to many in schools, parents/carers and education leaders in general.
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This week the gents chat with Alex Howarth, a Director of a large accountancy business and proud father of three young girls. Stan kicks things off considering the use of 'case sampling' in the new Ofsted school inspection Framework. He's concerned with the approach and how it could lead to weak evaluations by inspectors. Alex then reflects on the shift to more practical mathematics contained in the Francis Curriculum Review. Frank then considers the importance of oracy in the future and how disappointing it is to see the emphasis on traditional examinations being maintained. He suggests this counters the shift for oracy to be an integral part of all subjects. The chat then considers the Engalnd cricket team's chances of regaining the Ashes this winter.
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It is a pleasure to welcome Chris Zarraga the Director of Schools North East, the largest regional organisation supporting schools in the country. We also become aware that SNE also supports a number of special schools. We discuss the origins of SNE and Chris' career journey before we venture into what's caught Stan's eyes this week? He focuses on Martin's Law and the implications it has for school leadership. Chris then reflects on the importance of relationships and how this is always a key feature of the major events SNE organises. Frank then closes the chat by considering the insight offered by Sam Gibbs in a recent TES article considering what effective CPD for teachers may look like. It's a wide ranging chat with much reflection on previous experiences as senior leaders and why having a colleague or at least someone leaders can turn to when requiring personal and professional support.
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The 18th Spotlight edition of the Frank and Stan Chat looks at assessment and what digital leadership involves when we chat with Rosie Clayton. Rosie, until recently, was a key player in the Re-Thinking Assessment Group and has recently moved into a senior role at the Transforming Learning Group.
We consider the development of new approaches to assessment and the future role of AI. We also revisit the amazing work Rosie led on in creating a Learner Profile that provides a mechanism for a fuller range of skills, expertise, experiences, and interests to be recorded.
https://rethinkingassessment.com/learner-profile/
We then shift on to her new role and consider some of the challenges in progressing a digital shift at individual schools.
A great chat. Hope you enjoy it.
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Frank met Chris Jones, CEO of SMART Curriculum, a couple of years ago. We've been trying to secure a guest slot on the Frank and Stan Chat for a little while. He's a very busy man, so we are delighted to have him join us for what proves to be an illuminating and far-reaching discussion.
Stan gets things rolling by questioning the central costs of trusts compared to those of the local authorities in the past. Chris is well-informed on such matters and explains that comparisons are tricky because the actual personal salaries are not made public. Frank considers the growth of specialist subject advisers on permanent contracts in central teams and wonders the merits of this approach.
Chris then reflects on the encouraging news that more political parties including the government, want to strengthen the public perception of vocational pathways. Chris prefers to use the word 'professional' rather than 'vocational'. We then consider how important it is to view this issue across all phases of education, rather than it being seen as a Post-16 issue. Stan and Frank then gain valuable insights into the number of L2 and L3 courses available and the proportion that are 'vocational'.
Frank closes the chat by reflecting on a paper he wrote this week about the School Curriculum Award and how it resonated with Chris' weekly newsletter that covered the curriculum and accountability developments in Estonia.
Really interesting stuff, and makes clear to both Stan and Frank how fortunate they are to have such brilliant guests each week. It is some of the best professional development they experience and it's free!!!
Enjoy.
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It is a great pleasure to have Dave Rzeznik, a former HMI for many years with a keen interest in the provision and outcomes of the most vulnerable pupils, join us as our guest this week. We have been trying to secure a slot with Dave for quite some time, so it is great to have time to discuss the things that have caught our eyes this week.
Stan kicks off by considering the new role of the nominee being introduced by Ofsted as part of their attempt to de-escalate the tension felt during their inspections. Inevitably, Stan finds a gaping hole in their thinking.
Dave then considers the best practice guidance being produced by the DfE to assist in the development of specialist special education needs provision. He believes there is a lot of good intention but a lack of expertise and funding to enable it to work well in all places. We also consider how particular schools and trusts may not be willing to share their expertise too much due to the risk it presents in losing their staff.
Frank then reflects on the role of the Lay Inspector on the early versions of an Ofsted Framework and how they were meant to bring a non-education perspective on the evidence gathering. He believes there is value for school self evaluation in utilising a non-educationalist to consider how smoothly a school is working.
There is a lot of chat about Frank's unwillingness to pay his way, which is grossly exaggerated but it is an enjoyable 30 or so minutes. We hope it has some uplift and benefit for your work.
Enjoy
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This week the chat considers what it takes for an ambitious socially minded individual to leave a successful career to start up a not for profit organisation charged with encouraging more females into the tech world. This is what Chelsea Slater did when she created Liverpool Girl Geeks which in time became InnovateHer. Chelsea explains how an assembly in her secondary school made her realise she wanted to get into studying media. This took her towards university and then into a digital business where she noticed there were very few females. That's the journey towards her CEO role at InnovateHer. Chelsea was at the Labour Party Conference this week discussing and leading roundtables on the potential of InnovateHer in addressing a growing need for more digitally aware young people and adults.
Stan considers the importance of comparing schools by taking into account their context, Chelsea then gives more details on the government's Digital Taskforce before Frank reflects on the high quality care he received at Stepping Hill Hospital this week and why are 30% of secondary headteachers leaving their posts within three years. It isn't quite as easy to explain.
Enjoy!
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We are delighted to welcome back Ian Coulson, a former Headteacher and now a school improvement adviser. He was previously a guest in December 2020 when he was managing the trials and tribulations of DfE guidance for school leaders during the Covid pandemic. He is now the Founder of Teaching Made Simple Ltd, an advisory organisation for schools. He is at pains to explain he doesn't believe teaching is simple, but by trying to focus on the most important things, it can be made more manageable.
Stan gets things rolling by reflecting on the Good Hearts Law which ostensibly is “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.” In other words, when we set one specific goal, people will tend to push towards that objective regardless of the consequences. This leads to problems when they neglect other equally important aspects of a situation.
Ian then reflects on how he used self evaluation as a tool for improvement and why he believes it remains a key element of improvement. He also notes how Ofsted's new Framework references it without explaining its importance, particularly during the initial call with inspectors.
Frank finishes the chat by considering the importance of community and why trust/school leaders need to step up to play a leading role in the elements that can affect children and young people's learning. He references an amazing conference he attended last week organised by Forum Strategy.
It's a fascinating chat, or at least it was for the two regular gents.
Enjoy!
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We are so fortunate to have highly regarded experts in their field who come along to be a guest on our chat. This week is a good example. The two gents are joined by Dr Ronda Zelezny-Green, the Chair of the Board at InnovateHer, as well as a digital changemaker creating social learning systems to empower Black people, women, people with disabilities, and others who may be marginalised in the technology and education sectors. She has nearly 20 years of professional experience spanning five continents from the public, private, and civil society sectors. A Black and Indigenous woman excelling with ADHD, Ronda also has extensive experience in delivering racial equity and justice and gender with global perspectives. This week, she draws attention to some recent research from the LSE into Generative AI and how it is being used by young people and influencing their parents and carers. She encourages us to consider how well AI is being deployed in England's schools. Stan and Frank reflect on how Ofsted's new Toolkit could be used (with care) for improving school self-evaluation and how inspectors are reacting to the webinars the inspectorate has recently organised. The statement Frank reads out may not be reflective of all who attend, but it is not the only negative report.
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This special SPOTLIGHT considers how human resources has changed over the years. Frank and Stan are fortunate to be able to chat with Juliet Caunt, a former Director of People in a large multi-academy trust and who now offers consultancy to a wide range of organisations. We consider how the role of HR has changed over the years, some of the difficulties senior managers experience and how HR professionals help all parties. We also reflect on how Juliet extended HR services in a rapidly growing trust as well as consider some research she is currently undertaking into how trusts use staff benefits to improve retention and recruitment. It's a good 'un. Enjoy.
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Frank and Stan have been working hard to secure a slot in Paul Cherpeau's diary for close on a year. As the CEO of the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce he's a very busy colleague. Frank and Paul are members of the independent Liverpool Education Board and have discussed how best to improve the employability of young people in the city on many occasions.
The chat does not disappoint as Paul explains how the Chamber works to support local businesses in the Liverpool City Region by providing a strong networking community, advocating for their interests with government bodies, offering business support services like international trade assistance and skills development, and promoting inward investment to foster economic growth and create jobs. The Chamber understands its wider role in ensuring local people gain the knowledge, skills and attitudes to enter employment as well as to have an enjoyable and fulfilling life.
Paul was at Everton FC's new stadium yesterday, celebrating 175 years of the Chamber in the city with the Princess Royal. He explains how the Chamber has evolved and is continuing to play a crucial role in regenerating the city. He has some interesting insights into the role of entrepreneurship and how those who become successful without formal qualifications are important but they are the exception rather than the rule.
It's a fascinating chat. We are convinced many will gain a deeper understanding of the importance of effective business and education engagement for citizens of all ages.
He's agreed to come back in 2026.
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Well, who would have predicted the weekly Frank and Stan Chat would reach its seventh academic year. Back in May 2020, the two gents were unable to meet for a beer, so decided to chat using Zoom and press the record button as a means of saving our thoughts on the ongoing pandemic. Putting it on Youtube without knowing what we were doing enabled viewers to watch and follow. We are now at edition 231, with a further 16 specialist SPOTLIGHT editions so we are getting close to 250! With guests lined up into 2026, all being well, we will be heading towards 300 by the end of 2026.
We are privileged to be joined by Dennis Sherwood for this edition. Dennis was our first SPOTLIGHT guest in July 2023. It was one of the most interesting yet deeply worrying editions because he explained how and when he started to lose confidence in the work of OFQUAL. Look it up.
Dennis explains how he has felt while students have recently received their external national examination results and why he feels so disappointed with OFQUAL especially the complaint system. Stan then considers the calculation that by the not so new Behaviour Tzar that the Behaviour crisis 'means every pupil loses 45 days of learning a year'. Frank then considers whether the focus on Islamist terrorism is the right one for the Prevent programme and for the recent Ofsted training when the DfE's own data suggests something rather different.
Topical and challenging. Hope you enjoy it.
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The final weekly Frank and Stan Chat chat of the 2024-2025 academic year sees Lisa Lea-Weston return to discuss what's caught her eye this week as well as update us on her work on supervision, Lisa was a guest last year and made a very positive impression in the focus her work provides on supporting senior leaders. Interestingly, the focus of her work is now developing to offer supervision to make more staff, with different levels of responsibility, across schools and trusts. Our chat considers how much senior education leaders in government and those in parliament at high office might benefit from some supervision support. If you know that this is currently offered please let us know.
Stan reflects on the television series "House' which stars Hugh Laurie and considers whether the diagnostic approach he uses in his imaginary role might be useful for resolving some engrained education issues. Frank then considers the differences he has noticed in how education in Finland is offered, how it creates a high skilled and highly valued profession for the most able and talented. Lisa reflects on the changing nature of the support she is offering and how it is evenly split between those who are currently experiencing high levels of distress as opposed to those who want to identify an approach that can help them cope better with challenges when they emerge.
It's a cracking chat and emphasises once again how fortunate we are to have such wonderful guests who offer some of the best free professional development for us and we hope for the viewers and listeners.
We will be recording three SPOTLIGHT editions of our chat in the next few weeks covering Tutoring, Human Resources and the accuracy of our examination system (or not) and will release these during August and early September. We are back on the weekly chat for 2025-2026 on 10th September.
Best wishes
Frank and Stan
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This week we are delighted to have John Malynn OBE, a former senior Civil Servant at the DfE and Ofsted joining us. He is well versed in the delicate discussions that take place, often behind closed doors, in ensuring policy is converted into practice. With some major policy changes this week being announced by the government concerning welfare reform, he is well placed to comment.
Stan starts proceedings by reflecting on some Y6 pupils he saw locally wearing their 'Leavers 2025' sweatshirts and wondered whether this was signalling too early that the end of their Primary phase of education was now over. We consider how best to use the time between the end of the SATs period and the close of the academic year and whether the examinations are simply unacceptable in terms of providing a balanced education experience.
John then reflects on the challenges the Labour government has faced and wonders whether Sir Simon Case was correct when he recently identfied a lack of clarity on the communication front. With an important shift in the welfare reforms this week John wonders whether there is sufficient clarity on what the education reforms are and whether there has been sufficient listening to those delivering the service. Having a large parliamentary majority is clearly not enough to win all arguments.
Frank then considers an interesting report from EPI this week called 'Post 16 study programmes – understanding student choices and aspirations'. The report considers the pathways taken by students who were subject to Centre Assessed Grades (CAGs) during Covid. They recommend that 'GCSE English and maths results below grade 4 should only restrict access to level 3 courses where key elements of students’ main study programme are dependent on proficiency to this level' and that many students wanted flexibility in the structure and choices of courses. This presents challenges for the T Level moving forward.
The chat ends with us all reflecting on the turmoil at Ofsted and whether there is effective communication from senior managers. All three of us had worked with a former HMCI who was willing to front-up and was rooted in inspection methodology. We felt that this experience and focus might be the missing ingredient.
Enjoy!
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This week the two gents welcome back Rebecca Smith, a Headteacher in a large secondary school in Greater Manchester. Rebecca has been a guest a few times before and was a guest on our 100th edition of the chat in April 2022 alongside Prof Andy Hargreaves and her husband Neil Smith.
Frank worked closely with Rebecca when she was a principal at one of the Coop Trust academies, where he witnessed her amazing leadership skills in turning around a school, that was fairly dysfunctional, into an amazing place for young people to learn and for amazing staff to teach.
The chat starts with Stan considering how best to keep experienced staff invigorated and enthused about their job. He compares how this is tackled in education compared to football. He wonders whether secondments are the answer. Rebecca explains how she undertakes this challenge in her own setting and then considers the challenges that come from outside of the role and how this affects different staff in different ways.
Rebecca then reflects on an article last Sunday in a newspaper which explained how a Boarding school was reverting to giving young boarders access to a landline rather than provide free access to their smart phones. We then consider how effective any approaches that ban use during the school day (as in nearly all schools) where control of their use is unfettered in some households.
Frank then considers the challenges that are looming for school leaders in a lack of timeliness from the government. He reflects on the Covid period when guidance from the DfE usually arrived at 6pm on a Friday and then had to be considered and then shared by school leaders with staff in good time for the following week. With delays to the publication of the KCSIE guidance, delays to Ofsted Framework proposals and uncertainty over the timing of the Francis Curriculum Review it is going to be a very challenging autumn term. He notes that Leicestershire schools start their summer break in two week's time!
It's a relaxed and enjoyable chat for us. We hope it is useful and interesting for the viewers/listeners.
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A few years after Frank and Stan started their teaching careers they became aware of an education author called Pie Corbett. As there was very little guidance in the area of reading and writing Pie's books became a staple diet for professional development. Now, with over 200 publications, including the seminal 'Talk for Writing' and 'Cats, Hats and Hippos', Pie's extensive and varied career makes him an excellent guest. He doesn't disappoint.
Stan considers his wonderful holiday last week which gave him time to reflect on leadership in sport. He mourns the loss of enigmatic leaders and considers how some current managers often lack the clarity of thought and individual approach. Pie then considers a wonderful visit he made to a Primary school in Handsworth where under fresh leadership the school has been transformed. He explains how attention to detail and a consistent personal approach has led to a dramatic improvement in children's experiences and outcomes. Frank closes the chat by considering how important key teachers were in his time at school and how one in particular, Dave Milne, made history relevant, fun and interesting. As it was World Teacher Day it seemed an appropriate way to reflect on the amazing teachers we have been fortunate to work with and observe.
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This week, with Stan away on holiday enjoying some very hot weather, Frank is joined by Nic Ponsford CEO of the GEC Collective. The GEC is a global community of inclusion and well-being change-makers focused on education, empowerment, and equipping schools and organizations to create more inclusive and equitable environments. They utilize a digital platform and a network of experts to offer resources, data, and action plans to promote diversity and inclusion. This week they published their fascinating report '26000 Voices' so our chat includes a review of some of the findings. It also covers the fascinating career path Nic has engaged in and considers her nervousness as she preps for her Phd viva next week.
The chat reflects on the importance of drawing on multiple evidence and data sources to ensure a clear and broad picture is gained of issues children, young people, parents/carers and staff experience. Nic calls this a kaleidoscopic picture. We also discover how some schools in the USA are currently having to traverse the new administration's view on diversity and inclusion and we finish off with consideration of some data analysis undertaken by FFT regarding how many pupils have been affected in Private schools by the government's change on VAT.
Hope you enjoy it. We did!
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A riveting, well-informed and insightful chat with Kevin Edward Turner MBE, co-founder and co-artistic director of Company Chameleon, a highly regarded contemporary dance company based in Manchester. Kevin was a student of Frank's when he was a headteacher and re-connected in 2018 when Company Chameleon undertook dance workshops in some of the Coop's academies in Greater Manchester.
Kevin explains how his life was transformed and given purpose when the Northern Ballet Theatre Company provided a dance residence at the primary school he was attending. His obvious talent was seen immediately and fostered through the Trafford Dance Group, headed by the amazing Linda Coles. He created Company Chameleon in 2006 and it has grown from strength to strength. he's soon to accompany the dance company on a trip to Japan as part of the UK deputation for the World Expo. He is an inspiration.
But his life has been challenging especially when he faced serious mental health issues. The chat covers these and considers how important an active and vibrant arts curriculum is for all pupils and why this is sadly lacking in some schools. Stan reflects on a report published this week that makes clear how serious the drop in engagement is for students when they begin their secondary phase experience. We all offer some reasons for this. sadly, none of us were surprised by the findings.
Kevin then reflects on the many years he has engaged with young people at 42nd Street, a charity offering mental health support to young people aged 16-25 years. Yesterday was his final session with the young people. Their response and gratitude for his work were very moving. Kevin also considers the impact of free access to education that exists in Scotland and why this is a powerful force for economic and personal development.
Frank closes the chat with a reflection on the latest Sutton trust report that considers where social mobility is most successful. There appears to be a clear link between economic opportunities and the chances of achieving strong improvement in social mobility. He considers the lack of funding for FE and adult education and why the Early Years funding is important in that it supports parents/carers as well as the children.
It's a belting chat. We are incredibly proud to be able to chat for around 50 minutes with such inspiring guests. Please share the video with others. The messages about the arts, curriculum access and mental health are apposite.
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Just the two gents this week and they consider governance, leadership and the 'fit and proper' test for football, rugby league and MAT leadership. With Salford City Reds facing a winding-up order for non-payment of taxes Stan considers how they got into this position while Frank considers the journey of his beloved Southend Utd which faced similar difficulties recently. They consider the importance of honesty and transparency in leadership and Frank is quick to highlight the work of Prof Marianne Jennings and her book The Seven Signs of Ethical Collapse'. By the way, she's agreed to join our chat, we just need to pin down a date.
Frank then reflects on the recent chats with Rebecca Hanson and Aelwyn Pugh and explains why they were so impactful. The chat then considers CEO salaries and the redundancies one high profile MAT is facing and why it feels wrong when senior leaders earn so much.
We hope you enjoy it.
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Every now and again Frank and Stan give full rein to our guest, especially if they want to share some insight that is challenging or even provocative. This is what happened when Aelwyn Pugh, a former highly experienced HMI joined us again for our weekly chat. Aelwyn had prepared a carefully considered his thoughts on the issue of social mobility and how it had enabled him to progress. He also reflected on the type of education he received and how it enabled him to challenge orthodoxy and helped him to better understand the world. He considers how Germany undertook a deeper soul-searching of their past and how this has ensured they view the world in a more rounded way. Throughout the chat Aelwyn is mindful of the vital role education plays in guiding and supporting young people. He is highly critical of some who view this important role as purely an examination machine. For him, education is so much more. It is a highly thoughtful chat with Aelwyn offering a compelling view of past education mistakes and how things can be improved.
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After a short break the Frank and Stan Chat returns with a familiar guest joining us again. Brian Lightman, the former leader of ASCL (for 6 years) and secondary Headteacher of two Welsh schools, author and education consultant returns to consider
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the role of Facebook in deciding on which school to select
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the dangers of the current Ofsted inspection proposals
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the role of the RISE teams and they intersect with existing school improvement programmes and strategies
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the lack of a clear vision for education, and
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balancing the budget.
The chat ends on a more positive note with better news on teacher recruitment and the possible push for more Drama teachers which may indicate a shift in focus coming through the Francis Curriculum Review.
A great way to start the summer series of chats. Enjoy.
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Every now our channel is contacted by an individual who asks to be a guest. Some of these requests are rejected mainly because the issue to be covered has already had an airing in a previous chat. When Rebecca Hanson contacted us we felt she was going to bring a fresh perspective on a current issue in schools and she didn't disappoint.
Rebecca works as a supply maths teacher in a number of inner city schools in the north of England. She also provides maths tuition for children who are struggling with maths and support for parents who are home educating. She previously spent years providing professional development for primary teachers and teaching assistants, before free sharing professional development and advice for teachers through her RebeccaTheMathsLady YouTube channel. She is also an experienced conference speaker, facilitator and workshop leader and has substantial experience in national-level education policy development and the press and live mainstream media.
The chat covers Rebecca's recent experience of teaching in socially diadvantaged communities and why she feels too many students find mathematics irrelevant and uninteresting. She is clear who is to blame.
It's a spiky chat but one many should watch/listen to.
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This week the two longtime friends chat about personal loss and how it impacts as life rolls by. They then consider how toxic social media has become and reasonable debate and discussion is proving increasingly difficult. This isn't helped when those who should be claiming the higher ground fall well short of the standards expected. A YouGov survey is then considered and how it is being used to influence responses to an important national survey on the future of inspection. Frank then reflects on the possible peerage for the former Chief Inspector and why it has irked him so much. He also considers why it is important that Ofsted only comments on evidence collected by its own inspectors gathered without fear or favour. No guest, just the two of us, just like old times. Enjoy.
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This special SPOTLIGHT edition of the Frank and Stan Chat considers the work of Alan Braven and Anthony Benedict who have a new book being published 31 March called 'Educating Everyone - An introduction to Relational Inclusion in schools'. The book recognises the struggle schools face around funding, behaviour, attendance, increasing rates of exclusions, lack of SEN support and adequate suitable places and teachers leaving the profession. It identifies the present time as a transitional point in history where two camps have formed: the Behaviourists and the Relationalists. It introduces the reader to the idea of Relational Inclusion, tracking the origins of its concept and exploring current thinking around the causation of some of the issues raised, including epigenetics, automatic negative thinking and the deficit narrative.
The chat enables the four colleagues to reflect on how their approaches to behaviour management, inclusion and relationships have changed over time and how they see the challenges now being faced by many children, young people, their families and those who teach.
A fascinating and highly topical chat that also includes a generous 30% book discount using the code FRANKSTAN30 if bought through the Routledge website.
Enjoy.
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This week the two gents are not joined by a guest. We find it hard to believe that some of our followers like it that way. We know, however, that our guests add so much to our weekly chats and we are grateful for their time and commitment. Anyway, today we cover two main issues
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The recent documentary on the failings within Thames Water and what the lessons are for leadership in education and elsewhere
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The Interim Francis Curriculum Review Report
The chat meanders a little but it is punchy and direct in terms of our views.
Also, Frank ends by plugging The Alternative Big Consultation survey he is running wioth Prof Colin Richards. The link is at the end of the chat, if you are on video. If you are downloading the chat as a podcast you can find the link at www.thealternativebiglisten.co.uk. It only takes 5 minutes
Enjoy
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This week Frank and Stan are joined by Rebecca Leek, the author of the recently published book 'The School Ready Governor'. Rebecca has written an insightful and easily accessible book that covers the history and development of the governor role, how effective governance manages to bridge the operational and strategic divide as well as encouraging governors/trustees to be brave and firm when things do not seem right.
The chat includes Stan drawing attention to a mechanical device his father created that includes a 'governor' which he explains is a speed limiter or controller. Rebecca reveals that she intended to mention this in her book but decided to withdraw it before publication. Stan is experiencing the joy of trying to potty train his 2 year old grandson and considers the latest report that identifies what children are expected to be able to do before they start school. He makes the case for a degree of understanding on such matters.
Rebecca then considers how she is managing supporting her father who is in a care home. She references the James Taylor song 'The Secret of Life' which includes the lyric 'the secret of life is enjoying the passage of time'. Frank is also an avid James Taylor fan so the conversation considers how he is abler to write uplifting lyrics when he was facing significant personal challenges. Rebecca also draws in the importance of spiritual development for children and young people.
Finally, Frank remembers his brother Barry, who passed away nearly a year ago. He was a guest on the FRank and Stan Chat on two occasions and was keen to see teachers grabbing back more of the national assessment process.
It's a positive and fascinating chat. We've already booked Rebecca again for a second chat. Still so much ground to cover.
Enjoy.
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This week the gents are joined by Paul Ainsworth, a Director of school improvement for a Primary Phase MAT in Eastern England. He's also the author of the seminal books 'No Silver Bullets 1' and 'No Silver Bullets 2'. Frank and Paul have worked together in programmes designed to support future school and trust leaders. Paul's previous guest appearance was very well received and we enjoyed it immensely so we were happy to have a further chat. This week we consider a range of school improvement issues before we got stuck into what caught our eyes this week? For Stan, this was the growth in the number of complaints being handled by schools and how these never seem to reach a conclusion. Paul then considers the topsyturvy world of international politics and what it says about effective leadership before Frank closes the chat with a clip of Frank Dick, the former acclaimed athletics coach explaining what winning really is all about. A great chat, at least we thought it was. We hope you do too. Enjoy.
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Due to Frank's personal circumstances, it has been necessary to move some planned weekly chats around. This has meant that the chat with amazing Rebecca Leek, author of 'The School-Ready Governor', planned for the end of this week has been delayed until the middle of March. We had a planned chat with Ross McGill as part of the SPOTLIGHT series so we asked him if he would follow the usual weekly pattern of our chat, and he agreed.
Ross was our guest last year and proved very popular. His Teacher Toolkit website has over 250k visits each month with nearly 20 million visits to the website since it launched in 2007. He has become particularly interested in neurological conditions and during this chat he explains hopw the knowledge he has gained has affected how he views pupils with ADHD. He also discusses the strengths and weaknesses of Ofsted's Parentview survey and how his recent visits to schools is influencing his work. He is left with a deep respect and gratitude for the work of many in the teaching profession.
Stan considers the role of play and whether it is reasonable to expect school to be fun? He prefers it to be enjoyable...most of the time. Frank then summarises his involvement in the Alternative Big Consultation which launched earlier in the week and how he hopes it leads to a better form of inspection.
Enjoy!
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The latest chat is with Kerry Harrison, the Digital Skills Coordinator for the Lancashire Skills and Employment Hub. Frank worked with Kerry when he was chair of the Blackpool Education Improvement Board and she was a key figure in engaging schools and Colleges in the digital and STEM drive that Frank led on. In addition to Kerry chatting about her varied career which leads the discussion into skills for employment, transition arrangements, the benefits of cross curricular planning and managing work while also being a parent we also chat about 'the dead cat' theory, gene therapy to regain sight and the negative impact of 'uncontrolled leadership based on false promises'. We loved the chat and we hope you do as well. Enjoy.
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Our planned guest Ross McGill was unable to make the recording date for this edition so we decided to record a chat between the two of us. Apparently, some of our followers like to have this sort of chat every now and again so here is a treat...for some.
This week we announce that our little video cast/podcast won an award as the most popular education podcast in......wait for it.....OTTAWA! Who would have thought five years ago when these chats started that it would lead to this.
Our chat kicks off with Stan considering the positive and possible negative impact of machine learning on how children learn. Frank makes clear that he is experiencing this sort of learning through his grandchildren and there are some clear benefits but some really significant problems. We then move on to a certain high profile headteacher who met the Secretary of State this week. And then we close by reflecting on the latest SPOTLIGHT edition of our chat with Dr james Mannion that is due to be published on Monday.
Hope you enjoy the return of the two of us.
Frank and Stan
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Sometimes the choice of guests aligns with a major development in an area they have a keen interest in. This was the case this week when Tracey O'Brien, Headteacher at Wallington High School for Girls and author of 'Rethinking School Inspection' joined the chat to consider the launch of a draft school inspection framework and the announcement by the Secretary of State of a fresh approach to school improvement. With a deep understanding of inspection drawn from 30 years experience Frank and Stan were able to discuss in detail some of the key proposals with Tracey. It's not a complete wipeout in terms of criticisms but there is no holding back. We hope it is helpful and we encourage everyone to contribute to the Ofsted consultation. Enjoy.
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The two gents are delighted to be able to welcome back Sarah Davies, an Assistant Headteacher, keynote speaker and author with a keen interest in oracy. Sarah provides an interesting update on where the oracy issue is at the moment and provides some underlying principles for how it should or could be introduced into every teacher's classroom. Stan considers what he's gained from a garage clearance and reflects on how useful it is for all in education to just reflect on what is useful and what is not. Sarah considers changes to the AQA syllabus for GCSE and how they will impact on what students learn and how they express themselves. Frank closes off the chat with a reflection on some CEO salaries and how excessive they are, in his view. It's another great chat. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did recording it. Until next week.
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The two gents are delighted to be able to welcome back Sarah Davies, an Assistant Headteacher, keynote speaker and author with a keen interest in oracy. Sarah provides an interesting update on where the oracy issue is at the moment and provides some underlying principles for how it should or could be introduced into every teacher's classroom. Stan considers what he's gained from a garage clearance and reflects on how useful it is for all in education to just reflect on what is useful and what is not. Sarah considers changes to the AQA syllabus for GCSE and how they will impact on what students learn and how they express themselves. Frank closes off the chat with a reflection on some CEO salaries and how excessive they are, in his view. It's another great chat. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did recording it. Until next week.
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Life is full of contradictions and this week's chat is no exception. The two gents reflect on the knowledge, skills, understanding, attitudes and behaviours necessary for living in today's world and the one that is coming. Stan considers the challenges he has faced in rebuilding a family member's bathroom. It has been a journey of discovery both for him and for those he has sought help from during the past three weeks. Frank reflects on the PM's speech about AI and considers whether all of the connections have been made in terms of what is taught in schools and whether there is clarity on how to achieve this. The government wants growth and it will need to do more to ensure education delivers what the economy needs moving forward. So, the chat highlights a possible contradiction or does it?. Stan wants more traditional life skills so that young people can make the most of their lives as well as supporting the drive for economic growth whereas Frank wants to focus fully on the future where AI will be a key feature. But, all of these aspects are central to successful personal and national futures. We definitely need greater clarity on all of this and a shift away from viewing the academic route as the preferred route. This is where the PM missed a trick, in our opinion. We hope you enjoy the chat.
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Frank and Stan are delighted to welcome back Lisa Fathers. Lisa was a guest in Edition 164 just over a year ago. During that time she's been promoted to Deputy CEO of the trust. The start of 2025 has seen a very cold spell and no let up on the education news front. This week Stan considers the power of AL and the somewhat circular nature of some of its insight. Lisa then picks up the baton to consider the Schools Bill that passed its Second Reading this week as well as the impact of the various news stories around child exploitation. Frank then considers the data on GCSE resits and how the current approach blocks pathways for too many young people. We also have time to reflect on the various tricky decisions school leaders have had to make this week about whether to open or close due to the cold weather conditions. For every parent/carer who agrees with the decision there is likely to be just as many dumbfounded by it. Enjoy.
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The final chat of 2024 sees Eric Craven 'The Scouse Poet' return for his fourth appearance as a guest on the chat. He reads some of his whimsical poems and Stan offers one to him! We also reflect on five chats drawn from the year that made an impression long after they were broadcast. We have been fortunate to have so many colleagues willing to join our chats each week and as we always say these are the real stars. We have noticed that some very high profile guests often receive correspondingly high viewing and listening figures. We have tried here to highlight guests with a lesser profile but who offer fascinating insights. The chats that are specifically covered in this edition are:
Aelwyn Pugh Edition 187
Emma Ainsworth Edition 195
Dr Vic Carr Edition 207
Neil Sheldon Edition 184
Lisa Lea Weston Edition 176
Have a happy Christmas and a great New Year. We are back on 10th January with guests already lined up into the second half of 2025.
Best wishes
Frank and Stan
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Dr Vic Carr was a popular and insightful guest back on our chat in April so we decided to invite her back again. She is a mum to two young adults, the school dog, primary school Headteacher, Reserve Officer in the British Army Intelligence Corps, Chartered Manager, 'CollectivED' Fellow at Carnegie School of Education, Leeds Beckett University, Fellow of the Chartered College of Teaching, Senior Research Fellow at the Centre for Army Leadership, author and TEDx speaker who focuses on leadership, the power of language and how we all have the power to change lives.
This chat opens with Stan again reflecting on how the lack of a clear national education strategy is preventing many who want to drive change and improvement from engaging in a meaningful way. Vic explains how she is managing this period of uncertainty and is trying to hold back from a feeling of disappointment, through having a belief that things will improve eventually. She considers the points made by Sam Freedman in his recent book 'Failed State' that explain the inner workings of the previous government wanting a catchy news item for the weekend newspapers. Frank then gets around his 'no Ofsted pledge' by reading a recent Linkedin article from Adrian Gray on the 'non-event' that was the annual Ofsted report. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrian-gray-23642442/
Another amazing chat with a committed school leader. We are the lucky colleagues who have the privilege to chat with so many brilliant people involved in education. Enjoy.
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This week the gents are joined by Emma Knights, the former CEO of the National Governors Association (NGA) and someone who was last on the chat as a guest in May 2021 (our 55th edition of the chat). Emma led the NGA for 15 years and transformed it into a more robust, open-facing member organisation. She stood down from the CEO this summer and has begun to carve out a different role that includes writing insightful pieces for Schools Week on Report Cards as well as enjoying more cultural experiences in the Midlands and further afield.
The chat starts by discussing how Emma has felt moving away from a high-profile role and how the NGA successfully managed the transition to the new CEO. We discuss the changes and developments in governance structures and how they need to continue to move with the times and the demands on the sector.
Stan raises concerns about the Australian government's plans to ban Under 16s from using some (not all) social media platforms. he has concerns on how this will be policed. Emma then reflects on the recent COP in Baku and how it didn't really consider the education angle. This was in stark contrast to the Glasgow COP event. We then consider whether sustainability ought to be a Report Card indicator.
Frank completes the chat by reflecting on a recent meeting he had with two former colleagues who have stepped away from their trust roles. He considers their honesty, sensitivity, professionalism and kindness. Major qualities, he believes in a sector concerned with children and young people's development.
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It dawned on us as we were planning for this week's chat that we had never really covered the area of Youth Work in any depth. Well, we managed to put that straight this week through chatting with Owen Sedgwick-Jell, the Head of Membership and Programmes at the Woodcraft Folk. Woodcraft Folk is a charity that works with young people across the country offering a place where children can grow in confidence, learn about the world and start to understand how to value our planet and each other. It is celebrating its Centenary in 2025 and is keen to increase awareness of its work. Owen explains its connection with the cooperative movement and why it's different to other youth organisations. Woodcraft Folk is run entirely by voluntary donations so if you feel able to support they'd welcome the help. https://woodcraft.org.uk/donate/friends/
Stan considers the lack of an education strategy at the moment and its impact on a range of issues. Owen then reflects on the increase in suspensions and exclusions and the possible reasons for this. Frank then points to a recent evaluation of the Behaviour Hub initiative that suggested pupils felt that standards of behaviour had deteriorated slightly whereas staff thought it had improved slightly.
It's a great chat and ventures into new territory for the Frank and Stan Chat.
Before we reach the closing credits Frank promotes the work of Russell Harvey, the Resilience Coach, who has been a guest on the chat many times. Russell has taken a short break but is now back and available for work. His details are russell@theresiliencecoach.co.uk.
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A regular guest to the chat returns this week as we welcome Carolyn Eyre to discuss developments, insights and future changes to safeguarding arrangements. Carolyn worked in the Local Authority safeguarding arena for many years, first in Education Welfare services before becoming Child Protection coordinator for a large local authority. More recently, she was Head of Health, Safety & Wellbeing for the authority - combining also the roles of Senior Allegations Manager and Safer Recruitment lead officer. Carolyn is well known for her work with FE colleges and is regularly invited to speak at national conferences on topics ranging from 'partnership working' through 'creating a safe school culture' to the 'preventive curriculum'. Carolyn has a particular interest in the protection of children and young adults with disabilities; her knowledge and understanding of the complexities of safeguarding vulnerable groups has won her many friends in the special school sector nationally. She has been the safeguarding adviser to NASS and its members for more than 12 years. As a member of the Safer Recruitment Consortium task group, Carolyn was heavily involved in re-writing the national Safer Recruitment training materials launched in September 2014 and delivers T4T events nationally. So, she knows her stuff!
The chat starts with Stan considering the reliability of Ofsted subject reviews which have been heavily criticised this week for the way research evidence appears to have been manipulated to offer a preferred view on pedagogy., Carolyn then explains the significant changes to the VAT arrangements for Independent Special Schools, many of which are not-for-profit organisations and support some of the most vulnerable young people. She then considers the many changes to safeguarding arrangements that are going to be introduced for Early Years settings next year. Frank then reflects on a chat he had with a prominent CEO of a charity where it became clear that more needed to be done to support the literacy and numeracy skills of adults.
It's an enjoyable chat. We have already booked Carolyn for this time next year for another chat.
Enjoy!
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This week the two gents chat with Maxine O'Neill, a Headteacher of a special school in Liverpool and her brother Prof Adam Boddison. They are co-authors of the book 'The Secret Life of SENCOs' and provide a clear insight into the practical and strategic challenges faced by school leaders and the government in improving SEND provision. The chat covers several themes from their book as well as the attention given to SEND by the Secretary of State this week and as Adam points out the focus on SEND funding in the recent Chancellor's budget statement. Stan reflects on the ability of academies to revert back to LA control. He believes it would be very difficult and challenging. Adam considers the National Audit Office report on SEND funding and how it is leading government thinking. Maxine brings us all down to earth by explaining the varied jobs she has had to undertake this week due to some severe staff shortages due to illness at her school. It's an illuminating chat and we believe will offer insight and a high degree of optimism for the future. Enjoy.
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In the 11th SPOTLIGHT Edition of the Frank and Stan Chat we meet Phil Naylor, an experienced senior leader, author and advocate for working in the most challenging schools. His new book 'Some schools are harder than others' draws on the experiences of many brilliant teachers and leaders in some of the most disadvantaged communities across the country. Phil interviews these colleagues to help better understand why they are successful and what have they done that's made such a difference. Phil is honest and open about his own experiences and provides a useful insight into the qualities required to be successful in tough schools.
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With Stan away on other duties this week's chat is co-hosted by the amazing Kendra Allen. We are joined by a relative of hers, Alun Davies. Both colleagues have been guests on the chat many times so we venture into a host of issues including the need for young people to be given the chance to lead on major global issues such as the use and disposal of plastics, why its not worth anyone's time to consider whether chimps might (or might not) be able to write the works of Shakespeare given enough time and why we all need to consider whether the governance arrangements for inspectorates and regulators are sufficiently robust and independent. It's a belting chat. We hope you enjoy it. There are many upbeat elements to it, so it's not all doom and gloom.
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The latest Spotlight edition of the Frank and Stan Chat focuses fully on how to encourage more music, including singing in our schools. Today's guest is Charlotte Wicks, an opera singer who has sung around the world in some of the most prestigious venues, who's now turning her attention to encouraging children and adults of all ages to perform and sing together. As co-founder of Intergenerational Opera, a community based organisation, she has led the development of a programme that brings pupils/students of all ages together through music with older members of society. Charlotte talks openly about the challenges she faced in performing regularly at the highest level and why this forced her to reflect on what she wanted to do with the musical talent she possesses. Reaching out to smaller community groups led to a shift in her career which has seen the establishment of Intergenerational Opera and a Silver Award winner for this year's Pearson Awards. She has her fingers crossed for a Gold Award at the final event in November. The chat is wholesome, thought provoking and ultimately uplifting. If you want to know more about her work just go to www.intergenerationalopera.com.
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This week the gents are joined by Kathryn Loftus, Director of Education Alliance for Life Chances, a locally led initiative in Bradford that flowed from the work involved in the city's Opportunity Area. Kathryn explains how the alliance has brought together willing supporters of key service providers delivering for children, young people and families. The alliance understands the complex nature of children's services and how best they are delivered. This has led to a number of fascinating projects including three place-based programmes and a continuing focus on data analysis to ensure services are what the community wants and needs. Kathryn is a strongly committed and principled leader and provides a very reason for greater investment in community programmes. We have limited time for the 'what caught your eye this week?' section but Stan covers the crazy suggestion that young children should not be writing words that they have not yet been formally introduced to. Kathryn references research that links premature death to weak education outcomes while Frank finishes off the chat by covering the government's attempts to strengthen online safety for children and young people. Great chat. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did.
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The Teachertoolkit website is one of the most visited teacher development websites in the world with over 20 million hits. Ross began teaching in 1991 and taught for 26 years in London's national-challenge (secondary) schools; 20 years as a school leader. Today, he works with teachers and schools worldwide, enhancing teaching and learning, reducing workload and improving teacher mental health. A multiple award-winning teacher, in 2015, The Sunday Times featured Ross as one of the ‘500 Most Influential People in Britain’. He remains the only classroom teacher to feature to this day, and is the author of 11 teaching books.
We reached out to Ross and he was keen to chat about his work, why he decided to move from teaching into blogging, writing books and offering keynotes to schools around the world.
Our chat covers a lot of ground but focuses on being an entrepreneur, taking the plunge away from a settled career into an unknown future, what shapes his current thinking and how he sees teaching in the future.
It's a friendly, relaxed and informed chat and we hope you enjoy it.
www.teachertoolkit.co.uk
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In May 2020, Frank Norris and Stan Johnson met online. Frank decided to press a button on the Zoom link and a recording had been made. He then decided to post to Youtube so that there could be a permanent record of the chat. Over four years have passed and in this 200th edition the gents are joined by Sir Michael Wilshaw, the former HMCI between 2012 and late 2016. The chat covers a host of issues including Michael's relationship with Michael Gove and Dominic Cummings, his reaction to the Trojan Horse events shortly after his appointment, the shift in emphasis to regional delivery of inspection and his current concerns about the inspection Framework. Michael is honest, direct and reflective. If you are interested in the development of children and young people's services by Ofsted and where it might go in the future then this chat provides some important insights.
It's been a treat having weekly chats with a host of amazing guests. The Frank and Stan Chat is not about viewing or listening figures. It is about the relaxed nature of the chat. Invariably our guests tell us they enjoy the experience and many want to come back for a return visit.
We have guests lined up into the middle of 2025 but are still keen to hear from colleagues who may bring a different or fresh insight. You can contact Frank and Stan Chat by commenting on the most recent chat. We will then reach out.
A big thank you to our supporters and followers, our guests, Kendra Allen and Susan Breckell for standing in for Stan when he's been away and to Rick Dawson and Paul Johnson who produced two amazing theme tunes.
Best wishes
Frank and Stan
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This week the two gents are joined by Chaelsea Slater, CEO and co-founder of the social enterprise organisation called InnovateHer. Chelsea found herself working on marketing within a male dominated tech business and decided to do something about it. She joined forces with Jo Morfee and created Liverpool Girl Geeks. They both left their jobs when they realised the work required their full commitment and began the arduous task of securing funding from business to support their drive to get more females into the tech world and those businesses ready for more female employees. InnovateHer has some impressive businesses backing them but the challenge remains significant both in terms of increasing the reach of InnovateHer and ensuring there is a secure funding base to underpin their work. Chelsea reflects on the ups and downs of being a CEO but she remains committed to the original goal of improving female opportunities.
As we chat about recent events Stan considers the wisdom of a Trust CEO considering whether teaching staff should abandon the 1265 contractual hours they are contracted to work. We all add that most teachers we know far exceed those hours at the moment. Chelsea reflects positively on the PM's comments about the power and benefit of the creative arts. She welcomes any move that extends opportunities for pupils. Finally, Frank is heartened by the heavy emphasis placed on digital skills in the recently published Skills England paper. Stan enquires whether InnovateHer would be open to working with Primary aged pupils. They would but, not just yet.
It's a great chat. We will definitely invite Chelsea back to provide an update on InnovateHer and whether the renewed commitment to the creative arts has been maintained.
Enjoy.
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We've always been interested in chatting with teachers who have undertaken research into areas we have not chatted about. This week Caroline Popplewell, a Primary School teacher from the North West joins the gents to discuss her school based Masters research into the introduction of the Eco-School programme. She explains the challenges she faced in balancing her other school commitments but ultimately was pleased to see such a positive response from the children. We then considered how best to spread the practice so that more children could benefit.
Stan reflected on some of the leadership issues that have appeared within the new government and whether they could or should have been avoided. We shifted these issues into school scenarios where it is relatively easy to be conflicted through receiving a small gift or a favour. Caroline then praises the efforts of a local business that supplied fans of Morecambe FC ear defenders and spinning widgets for those that might be anxious about the noise and hustle and bustle during the game. Frank then reflects on a wonderful session provided by Everton Nursery at a major Liverpool Education conference today. The emphasis was on the meaning of education and it aligned so neatly with many of our videocast and podcast chats. An uplifting and positive experience.
Highly enjoyable chatting with Caroline and we hope you gain some important insights and areas to reflect upon to improve your teaching and leadership. If that's the case (or not) then please let us know.
Until next week when we are joined by Chelsea Slater, CEO and joint Founder of InnovateHer.
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This week the gents are delighted to welcome Prof Mel Ainscow back as a guest. Mel is Emeritus Professor of Education, and an internationally recognized authority on the promotion of inclusion and equity in education. Previously a head teacher, local education authority adviser and lecturer at the University of Cambridge, he's also a long-term consultant to UNESCO. He
led the Greater Manchester Challenge a three-year project that involved a partnership between national government, ten local authorities, 1,150 schools and many other stakeholders, and had a government investment of around £50 million. He went on to lead Schools Challenge Cymru, the Welsh Government’s multi-million pound flagship programme to accelerate the rate of improvement across the country’s schools. He is currently steering an inclusive cross schools project for the city of Dundee.
Mel has a new book out called 'Developing Inclusive Schools' and this dominates, in a pleasant way, the discussion. We dropped the usual 'what's caught your eye this week?' slot due to the genuine interest in Mel's contribution to the discussion. It is a wide ranging chat but offers hope for a better future if local, regional and national leaders are willing to grasp the nettle.
Sit back and enjoy what Mel has to say. It will probably change your view on SEND, behaviour, attendance, culture and collaboration.
Enjoy.
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The two gents are back for another academic year. The seven week break they have had has recharged the batteries and much has happened in education, especially in the past week. Fortuitously, they are joined by John Malynn, a long serving senior Civil Servant at the DfE and for four years at Ofsted. Frank and John would meet regularly to discuss developments such as new Frameworks when Frank was responsible for such matters as a senior HMI. The publication of the Big Listen including the report from Dame Christine Gilbert this week means that John has a rather unique perspective on such issues. Stan reflects on the announcement but lack of detail on how regional school improvement teams will work. John then considers the insight provided by Rory Stewart in his book 'Politics on the Edge' with Frank trying to get out of his Ofsted 'rabbit hole' by considering how realistic is the timetable for a new inspection framework with surrounding other issues to be delivered by September 2025. It is a fascinating insight into how the relationship between Ofsted and the DfE has changed over time and how important it is to get the next phase of development right.
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The two gents chat to Tom Zebedee about cyber security. Tom explains why it is vital that senior managers create a strong culture of openness and trust to ensure the chance of security breaches is reduced. He makes clear that it is all centred around effective leadership and a desire to demonstrate this at all times. He points out how some fairly recent breaches took place and how they were resolved. It is a fascinating chat. Tom has set up a cyber security business based in the North and is open to discussions with schools and trusts. Tom is available to support schools and trusts and can be contacted at Tom@cyber-culture.org.
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The gents are delighted to welcome back as a guest Emma Ainsworth. Emma is currently a Chair of Governors at a Primary School in Bradford, a former senior manager at The Coop and currently working on strategic architecture at Biffa. Stan draws attention to a rugby medal he found in his attic which led to him researching the relative who played Rugby Union in the 1880s. Emma reflects on grief and how schools cope with tragic news and support the family and the wider community. Frank then considers the events in Harehills last night as well reveals that the chat has seen 26% increase in views, 24% length of watching and 10% increase in subscribers in the past year. This is the last chat of the academic year. We are back on 6th September and have guests lined up well into 2025. Thank you for your support and encouragement. Oh, the chat with Emma is great cos she's a fascinating individual. Enjoy.
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This week Frank and Stan chat with Jill Gray, former Principal at Blackpool 6th Form College and now a leading figure in the creation of The Coastal Collaborative Trust, a new multi academy trust that includes her former College. The chat opens with Stan having mixed emotions around the news that the new Government intend to undertake a Curriculum Review to ensure there are wider opportunities for pupils and students. He worries whether having such a clear stance on improving the time devoted to the arts and physical activity is a good starting point for an independent review. Jill then reflects on her recent visit to Australia and how members of her family out there are showing amazing resilience. Frank completed that chat by drawing attention to the publication of The Alternative Big Listen and how the authors have been able to draw on support from a colleague and friend steeped in experience in the media and public relations. Time to start trusting the experts a bit more is the general theme. A very enjoyable and relaxed chat. Amazing where the 35 minutes disappears. Enjoy.
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A momentous night followed by a Frank and Stan Chat. What more does education need? The two gents chat about their views on the past 14 years, what might happen in the next 100 days and what they hope for in the future. It's just a gentle glide through a range of issues. For those who have been up half the night and had to teach today, it might be just what you want. We hope so!
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Ever wondered what it felt like to be a long-established tutoring provider during the pandemic? Ever wondered why existing providers were not included in the initial list of 33 national providers for the National Tutoring Programme but new providers were? Ever considered why the Randstad contract ended so quickly? How did tutoring programmes survive and what are they doing now? This special SPOTLIGHT focuses on all of these issues and more with Anne Morris, CEO and founder of Yipiyap. There's positive and negative sides to the story but the strength of the relationship between the tutoring provider and the school is central to the success of the programme. Success depends on a mixture of tutoring and supporting the individual student's wider needs. It is so much more than just academic success. It appears the government lost sight of this during the pandemic. Watch/Listen here to discover the ups and downs of the National Tutoring Programme.
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This week Stan returns from his two week break and we are joined by Education Director, author, keynote speaker and great guest Paul Ainsworth. Paul's most recent publication 'No Silver Bullets' draws on his considerable and varied career involved in school improvement. True to his character he doesn't plug any of his books, although Stan and Frank do. The chat begins with Stan 'reflecting' on hotel mirrors before Paul explains how optimistic he is that so many senior Opposition leaders were educated at comprehensive schools. He feels this will ensure the majority will not be forgotten as education policy changes with a possible new government. He then reflects on his disappointment that an iconic Joy Division song has been chosen for an important video when there were possibly some better choices. Frank ends the chat by discussing how inspection should not be used as a crystal ball. It was fun to take part and we hope you enjoy some of the light hearted moments as well as those that perhaps make you ponder on leadership and education policy.
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It has taken a while but it was great to have Mags Bradbury, the Head of Social Responsibility and Civic Engagement at University of Manchester as our guest. Mags previously led the Coop Group's education programme which included their early foray into academy sponsorship. In fact, Mags was instrumental in encouraging Frank to apply for a senior role with the Group. This led in turn to him being appointed the CEO of the Co-op Academies Trust. The chat kicks off (it is the Euro tournament at the moment) with Kendra explaining the importance of creativity including music and art for the development of children and young people. She describes a number of events she has witnessed recently where learning and development have been enhanced through creative engagement. Mags then gets two free kicks as she explains the importance of raising awareness of the political system to young people and how they can come to terms with their beliefs and values. She then considers the importance of kindness in leadership. Frank raises the issue of the Welsh 20 mph traffic limit in some built up areas and how it has quietly reduced the number of serious accidents, reduced insurance claims and saved around £34m in the first 6 months through less serious road traffic accidents. The guests consider why this good news isn't news in many places. A great chat. The final week for Kendra stepping into cover Stan so a big hug for her encouragement, support and great viewing figures in the past week or so.
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With Stan taking a couple of weeks away from the chat we are delighted to have Kendra Allen as the co-host. Kendra has been a longstanding follower of the weekly chat and has appeared on three separate occasions as a guest. The chat kicks off with Kendra discussing the level of abuse online that female politicians receive and why this makes it difficult for some to consider a career in politics. Frank then offers some insights into some appalling comments made about Angela Rayner and why he respects her life journey and her commitment to her home area. Kendra then rolls through the various party manifestos published this week and the lack of serious attention to education matters. Frank chips in with some thoughts on scorecards, the pride he felt when he realised 1 Angel Square, his former workplace, had been chosen as the launch venue for the Labour manifesto and the enjoyment he got from attending the Forum Strategy Symposium this week. All good stuff with a dose of light heartedness thrown in as well.
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Sometimes major news stories have relevance for education and the way they show poor leadership and/or judgement. This week's faux pas was not directly about education but it demonstrated poor judgement and a lack of awareness. John Cosgrove former headteacher, author and freelance writer joins Frank and Stan as they unpick the decision of the PM to miss part of the 80th anniversary of the D-Day landings in Normandy. As usual, we move the chat towards an education scenario and Stan compares the decision to missing the leavers' assembly because of a less-than-important appointment. John then considers why education doesn't appear to feature in the various leader debates that have taken place and what this may mean for the future direction of education policy. Frank then asks others to consider whether 16 year olds should have the vote and links this to the conscription/community work furore. It's a good' un. Enjoy.
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This week the gents are joined by a friend, colleague and keen follower of their weekly chat, Kendra Allen. This is the third time Kendra has been a guest and she never disappoints in being able to draw on considerable experience as a senior leader and adviser to get to the heart of the weekly education news. This week we chat about lecterns, rain, umbrellas, planning (or lack of it) and why did someone not step outside and offer an umbrella to the PM, or least hold one open for him? Stan considers whether three separate visits to a Croydon school by Ofsted can realistically be deemed a single inspection? Kendra then connects her interest in darts and National Numeracy Day which was this week. Frank then considers all of the proposals, consultations, reviews, publications, surveys and other activities that will now stop (and possibly not proceed) following the move to a purdah period. It's a fun and enjoyable chat with some humour so, we hope, a nice way to move into the Bank Holiday.
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The gents are delighted Aelwyn Pugh, Former HMI, Senior Effectiveness Officer and Head of Music Service decided to return as a guest. His first appearance was in September 2023 and led to comments such as 'at last we get to hear a proper HMI chatting about education' and 'this is what HMI used to be like. Aelwyn gets things moving by explaining how his career covered a wide range of settings and experiences. Frank suggested this made him a strong candidate for HMI. He then goes on to give the reason why he never received a proper induction as HMI. A very different experience to Frank's. Stan then demands that the government create an award called 'The what doesn't happen that should be banned award' as he considers the release of recent sex education guidance that covers amongst other things, gender identity. All guests consider how poorly the Secretary of State conveyed the need for such guidance. Aelwyn then reflects on efforts to improve attendance and why his periods of non-attendance at school enhanced his educational experience. Frank then ponders how effective management is not all down to salary and prestige but is all about community and dedication. He explains who Kevin Maher is and why he won a major football award this week.
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When Frank and Stan held their first chat in May 2020 we never imagined others would be interested in them. We certainly didn't envisage that eminent thinkers, practitioners and respected colleagues would join us as guests. This week we are delighted welcome back Neil Jurd, author of 'The Leadership Book', former army officer and RMA Sandhurst instructor and now a business leader of a training organisation in leadership development and coaching. Neil has an MA from Cranfield University and a fellow of the Institute of Leadership and Management. He was appointed OBE in 2021 and awarded the British Citizen Award in 2020. Along with this impressive CV Neil is a very interesting and well informed colleague.
The chat considers how Neil's military training and experience influenced his approach to leadership. He gives some clear, practical examples with the discussion moving on to trust and humility as key themes. Stan then considers what's caught his eyes this week and focuses on an MA dissertation he received for comment from Lucy Truman, a regular guest on the Frank and Stan Chat. He reflects on how the period of COVID encouraged local authority staff to get on with decision making without having to consult. He wonders whether consultation is currently getting in the way of decision making. Neil then reflects on the impact of AI on essay writing and how it weakens the writing style and reduces individuality. Frank then ponders over the surprising news that the DWP had harvested some pupil data from the DfE to check on benefit fraud. This arrangement was not widely known. We all then considered what other data is being shared on citizens.
A varied and interesting chat. Hope you enjoy it.
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It was a privilege to be joined by Jan Rowe from John Moores University for a chat about ITE and the latest education news. It didn't take long for us all to reflect on the teacher trainer market review and the impact it has had. It is fair to say we found it hard to identify many strengths, if at all. Teacher recruitment numbers remain low and existing providers have had to devote valuable time to the process when all available resources should have been focused on increasing recruitment figures. Stan considers the decision by a MAT to lose all Teaching Assistants from their Primary Schools replacing them with fewer positions with a different title and focus. He considers whether it was a good look for there to be a big increase in the number of senior colleagues earning over £100k while introducing the change. He also considers the different layers of leadership some trusts have adopted. Jan then explains why there was such an outcry when the government stopped funding the Now Teach charity. Jan explains that this charity does not train the teachers, they just identify potential candidates and pass them on to a training provider. Jan connects the charity's links with media outlets and celebrities as the possible reason for such an outcry over the loss of the £1.7m project. Frank ends by drawing attention www.thealternative big listen.co.uk and the success it has had in attracting much better than expected responses. Great chat. The best bit of professional development Frank and Stan get each week. We will always be grateful for the time our great gusts give us. Hope you enjoy it as much as we did.
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This week the gents are joined by Neil Sheldon, Chair of the Teaching Statistics Trust, Fellow of the RSS and a Chartered Statistician Vice-Chair of the UK Linguistics Olympiad and Member of the Committee for Linguistics in Education. A teacher of pupils aged from 9yrs to 90yrs he's a fascinating and well informed colleague in the way statistics are used in society and particularly in education. Neil kicks off with a reflection on how we were connected through the work of Dr Dennis Sherwood and the accuracy of examination results. He explains how statistics is about insight rather than numbers. Stan then considers the government's response to the Coroner's Report following the tragic death of Ruth Perry. He highlights the inconsistencies and vagueness of their response. Neil then explains the enjoyment he gained from reading 'All that remains' by Sue Black. This is a reflection on questions or mortality by a professor of anatomy and forensic anthropology, who works in war and disaster zones, As Neil indicates it is a gripping and fascinating read. Frank then reveals the launch of The Alternative Big Listen which is an attempt to discover the views of professionals about Ofsted's work. It launches on 1 May. The chat ends with Neil reflecting on what he would change in education if he had the power. He focuses on the need to ensure all those reviewing data have a clear understanding of what it means. A riveting chat.
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This week the gents are joined by Neil Sheldon, Chair of the Teaching Statistics Trust, Fellow of the RSS and a Chartered Statistician Vice-Chair of the UK Linguistics Olympiad and Member of the Committee for Linguistics in Education. A teacher of pupils aged from 9yrs to 90yrs he's a fascinating and well informed colleague in the way statistics are used in society and particularly in education. Neil kicks off with a reflection on how we were connected through the work of Dr Dennis Sherwood and the accuracy of examination results. He explains how statistics is about insight rather than numbers. Stan then considers the government's response to the Coroner's Report following the tragic death of Ruth Perry. He highlights the inconsistencies and vagueness of their response. Neil then explains the enjoyment he gained from reading 'All that remains' by Sue Black. This is a reflection on questions or mortality by a professor of anatomy and forensic anthropology, who works in war and disaster zones, As Neil indicates it is a gripping and fascinating read. Frank then reveals the launch of The Alternative Big Listen which is an attempt to discover the views of professionals about Ofsted's work. It launches on 1 May. The chat ends with Neil reflecting on what he would change in education if he had the power. He focuses on the need to ensure all those reviewing data have a clear understanding of what it means. A riveting chat.
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We are grateful to Adrian Lyons for stepping in when the planned guest was unavailable. Adrian was one of Her Majesty’s Inspectors of Education, one of the most experienced HMI in Ofsted with a national lead for economics, business and enterprise. He regularly led the inspections of secondary schools, primary schools and initial teacher training providers. He led major national surveys such as ‘Getting Ready for Work’ in 2016 and in 2019 was the lead HMI for Ofsted’s research into initial teacher education (ITE) training programmes. His role for many years involved working with directors to find solutions to individual and organisational problems. Now he works as an independent consultant and is a frequent keynote presenter across Europe.
The chat begins with the gents considering the value of Ofsted's Big Listen. Adrian and Frank reflect on previous surveys of views from Ofsted and note that the closed nature of the questions leads to fairly predictable responses. Also, the survey doesn't cover a number of important issues such as whether a single word grade should continue, whether more emphasis should be placed on school self evaluation and whether it is right to excluded data provided by the school.
Stan reflects on the recent IFS report on Sure Start Centres, Adrian considers the recent Ofsted report on Religious Education and Frank shares some views on how work experience opportunities are changing.
An interesting and varied chat. We hope you enjoy it.
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Following a short Easter break the two gents are back this week with an amazing guest. Dr Vic Carr is a Primary headteacher on The Wirral, Reserve Army Officer; Chartered Manager; CollectivEd Senior Fellow; Chartered College of Teaching Fellow; Senior Research Fellow, Centre for Army Leadership; author and TEDx speaker who focuses on leadership and the power of language. She has lectured part time at Master’s degree level, has 3 MAs in Equality and Diversity; Leadership; and Modern War Studies/Contemporary Military History; and a doctorate in leadership and politics.
Following the normal introductions Frank focuses on Vic's military training and the leadership development she has experienced through this work. This is just up Stan's street so the insight and examples provided by them both provide a powerful example of why honesty, integrity, consistency and consideration and love are at the heart of effective leadership.
The clarity of thinking and the way Vic draws in examples from her varied career make the chat compelling. There is just enough time to consider the rather bizarre idea the government has come up with recently which is to encourage scouts to become teachers.
It is a belting chat and we recommend colleagues sit back and listen to Vic explain her leadership philosophy. We are amazed that such wonderful guests are willing to give us their time. Frank and Stan, we hope, our watchers, listeners and followers are the real beneficiaries.
Enjoy
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The next SPOTLIGHT Edition considers a recent blog written by Mark Innes, Dr Elizabeth Gregory and Dr Lisa Murtagh on the apparent marketisation of professional leadership qualifications. The three academics published a BERA piece to explains the development of national leadership programmes and how they have shifted through the DfE's control into six NPQs provided by nine lead providers. Their blog initially 'focused on job adverts which demonstrated how government policy had enriched a handful of densely networked players, put others in potentially precarious positions, and impoverished teacher development'. It's a cracking discussion which reflects on the lucrative market and the concerns about a 'golden thread' approach. The researchers are keen to hear from colleagues who have completed the various programmes to discover how useful they have been. Contact details are below:
mark.innes@manchester.ac.uk
Elizabeth.Gregory@manchester.ac.uk
Lia.Murtagh@manchester.ac.uk
Enjoy.
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Frank met the amazing Sarah Davies at a conference last September in London. He was impressed by her insight, passion and commitment of Sarah so he reached out and luckily she agreed to be a guest on our weekly Frank and Stan Chat. She explains why Oracy is so important, how it unlocks doors in other areas of learning and is not just an English department issue. She also explains how she found the time to write 'Talking about Tracy' during the various Covid lockdowns.
Stan kicks off by questioning the view that was shared today in the press that young people should not have a mobile phone until they are 16. Sarah then ponders on the gaping holes in the government's teacher recruitment targets and Frank shares some research he's undertaken analysing the proportion of students who have progressed to graduate or L3+ qualifications across many Northern towns and cities. The figures are not what you would expect.
It's a great chat. We enjoyed it immensely and we hope you do as well.
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Today Frank and Stan chatted with Ros McMullen and Peter Cockcroft, two colleagues closely involved with Headrest, a support group for senior managers facing significant stress from undertaking their role in education.
Headrest explain why they exist on their website
https://www.headrestuk.co.uk
'Never before has the job of running a school been so challenging, not just for headteachers, but also for CEOs, governors and trustees. As a system-led profession, we need to come together and offer a much-needed mutual support service, acting almost as a safety device for headteachers. Most importantly, in order for it to be available and accessible to everyone, it needs to be free. This is where Headrest comes in.
We know that in many schools, heads are very well supported, be it in a MAT, federation, cluster or LA. But there are too many out there who are not so lucky, new headteachers especially, who are not able to access the traditional suite of face-to-face induction support as a result of the lockdown restrictions. It must be especially tough for them, not knowing what 'normal' looks like.
Add into the mix the safeguarding concerns thrown up by the pandemic, the regularly changing and often inappropriate guidance from the DfE, the misinformation and coordinated onslaught on the profession from certain quarters of the media, and the desperation to get things as good as they can be for the young people they serve, the job can feel un-doable.'
The chat covers a wide range of issues relating to the recently published Headrest annual report. It explains how Headrest offers support and how speedily they try to respond. The discussion covers how things have changed since the previous report and identifies they key stressors that are impacting negatively on those seeking help and support.
It is one of the most important Frank and Stan Chats of the year. Watch and listen to the situation experienced by senior leaders who make contact with Headrest. Sadly, things have not improved since the previous report, in fact, it appears to have got worse.
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On the day Ofsted announced the launch of 'The Big Listen' it is timely to have Tracey O'Brien, headteacher and author of the seminal book 'Rethinking Inspection as our guest. The chat covers a broad range of topics. Stan kicks off with the strange news story where apparently a Headteacher was dismissed for slapping her child's wrist while on school premises in front of the designated safeguarding leads (DSL). Tracey then considers the importance of Ofsted's Big Listen and why more emphasis needs to be placed on self evaluation and improving the Framework and the quality of inspectors. Frank finishes that chat considering the in-depth interview with Sir Kevin Collins in the TES where he gives a running commentary on the rejection of a £12.5bn programme of post-Covid support for children and young people. The chat includes a host of other points. Enjoy.
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This week the gents chat with two colleagues who appeared on the show in October 2022. Big advocates of the physically active learning movement, Alun Davies and Bryn Llewellyn bring us up to speed with their recent work. The chat also includes a consideration of the leadership approach adopted by James Timpson, of the shoe repair business, which gives significant flexibility to local store managers. The chat then considers the importance of wellbeing and happiness for staff and pupils before moving on to the hot topic of school holidays and parents/carers being fined. The chat ends with Frank considering the lack of openness and transparency in the appointment of the government's attendance ambassador. Enjoy.
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Every year in the build-up to World Book Day Frank and Stan invite children's author Dan Worsley to be their guest. The chat covers how he creates his ideas, drafts his work, edits and then publishes the successful books. These include the Eric Appleby trilogy and the Impossible Tales collection. As a former primary school teacher Dan appreciates the challenges in encouraging reading and writing. During the chat, he provides ideas for teachers to encourage a fresh approach and also reads from two of his brilliant books. The chat is managed in such a way that it should appeal to teachers and pupils. It is a great resource if you are unable to secure a visit from an author and want to share with the pupils how an author goes about his craft. Previous chats with Dan have been incredibly well received and we hope the 2024 edition will be even better. Always keen to receive feedback to help the chat improve. Enjoy.
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This week the two gents are joined by Sam Gibbs, Leader of Curriculum and Development for the Greater Manchester Education Trust. Sam contributed strongly at a recent Forum Strategy event and also published a fascinating analysis of the risks associated with centrally driven training programmes. As she points out in the chat there is a need for professional agency and leadership development programmes need to acknowledge this. Frank develops this theme by referring to a recent blog published by academics at the University of Manchester called 'House of Cards: The marketisation of school leadership qualifications in England'. This paper identifies potential risks in drawing apparent leadership expertise from a very narrow base and from multi-academy trusts deemed to be in favour of the current government. Stan then completes the discussion by considering how effectively Liverpool Football Club are managing the announcement of Jurgen Klopp standing down. He highlights the for schools to take succession planning much more seriously, especially with the dearth of applicants for senior positions.
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This week Stan gets the chance to chat with a colleague with a vast range of experience in offering supervision support for education staff including senior leaders. Lisa Lea Weston is the founder of Talking Heads Supervision which has provided support to over 1000 schools across the country. If you follow these weekly chats you will know that Stan is a big advocate of supervision support. The chat enables Lisa to explain how supervision is offered and also how it has helped to support personal growth and development. She explains how her team of around 40 participated in a training session this week and why it is vital that they feel positive and motivated. Stan considers how frustrating some companies are in trying to deal with a simple problem and Frank reflects on his most recent keynote where the conversation tackled the competition and collaborations conundrum between schools. Enjoy.
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We were delighted to be put in contact with Sam Fox and Chris Walsh by a previous guest Shaheen Myers. Shaheen sang the praises of their work so we were keen to find out what all of her excitement was about. It turns out to be a new online support programme for PSHE in secondary schools. Sam and Chris explain the concept and where the idea for their work came from. It seems to have started as an attempt to improve young people's awareness of financial matters but quickly morphed into a much wider project. Through a modern PSHE syllabus, The Talk covers all statutory topics that MUST be taught and those that SHOULD be taught. It also brings experts from all relevant fields in one place, so that schools don't have to.
In the 'What's caught your eye this week?' section Stan considers the problems highlighted in a tv documentary about the poor state of some school buildings. Chris considers the way anxiety can creep into the lives of young people while Sam reflects on the work of UA92. Frank completes the discussion by drawing attention to the request made by the Northern Powerhouse Partnership to the Chancellor to fund a reformed Pupil Premium allocation. It's a great chat.
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Sometimes the Frank and Stan Chats connect with guests at just the right time. John Woodhouse, who set up and leads the Safeguarding Network, joined the two gents during a week when Ofsted announced changes to the way it intends to inspect safeguarding, a recent NSPCC report on child abuse was published and the awful events surrounding the death of a two year old focused on child protection arrangements. Nearly all of these issues are covered in the chat along with the developing game of whether you can determine the Ofsted inspection grade by reading the text of the report. It is much harder than you would think. Also, if you are interested you can claim a £20 discount on joining the Safeguarding Network if you insert 'STAN20'. Our first discount for listeners and watchers. Just to add the Frank and Stan Chat makes no money from the chats and never will. Enjoy.
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For the first edition of the New Year we were delighted to have Dr Ronda Zelezny-Green join us as our guest from sunny Grenada, in Southern Spain. Frank knows Ronda through their work as Board members (Ronda is the chair) of InnovateHer, a not-for-profit organisation committed to ensuring more females join the digital tech industries and ensuring those industries are ready for more females. Ronda is a digital changemaker creating social learning systems to empower Black people, women, people with disabilities, and other marginalized populations in the technology and education sectors. Serving as a mobile technologist, trainer, and researcher, Ronda has nearly 20 years of professional experience spanning five continents including working for the public, private, and civil society sectors. A Black and Native American-British woman with ADHD, Ronda brings a fresh insight into our weekly chat.
Stan kicks off by considering the awful events surrounding the Post Office and its Horizon system. He ponders on the lack of governance, oversight, ethical leadership and paltry legal advice. Ronda then reflects on the lack of coverage of events at The Hague this week where South Africa brought a case of genocide for the actions of Israel in Gaza. Frank then wonders how keen youth groups really are in wanting to hear the voices of young people. This was brought about by a troubling blog written by Ishaa Asim, a young activist who has twice been a guest on Frank and Stan Chat.
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The final chat of 2023 sees Eric Craven, the Scouse Poet, return for the third time. He is the regular 'go-to' guest for the final chat before Christmas and he never disappoints. He has a new anthology of poems just published called "Love, hurt and whimsy'. He reads two contrasting poems from the collection as well as a new poem about his son. Despite much news in the world of education we glide over this and concentrate on some positive insights. The end of the chat includes a summary of the viewing figures for the year and the 10 most-watched editions. We hope you enjoy it. Frank and Stan is not about achieving record breaking viewing figures but we hope our musings provide some support and at times comfort in these difficult times. We are back on 12 January and have future guests lined up until mid-summer. Thank you for your support and encouragement.
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We've been trying to secure a slot to have the brilliant Sameena Choudry back as a guest and she certainly didn't disappoint. In a week when there was the Coroner's verdict on the Headteacher at Caversham Primary School, the lack of strong leadership emanating from the Covid Inquiry, a Prime Minister trying to say that Rwanda is a safe country when only a few months ago Supreme Couty judges determined that it wasn't, PISA findings and a troubling UNESCO report on appalling increase in levels of child poverty in recent years it was a tough ask to find just three things to chat about. We ended up with four!
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Ruth Perry
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Child Poverty levels in the UK
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Recruitment and retention of teachers and leaders
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Why local support is often the most effective
It is an interesting and at times troubling chat. We are fortunate to have guests like Sameena joining us. We will try to secure a date for her to return in 2024.
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Sir David Carter was a guest on Frank and Stan Chat in September 2022 and we were delighted to welcome him back to find out what has caught his eye this week? The chat considers The Elgin Marbles and what it says about leadership. Also enables us all to reflect on the tricky meeting with a parent/carer and how best to deal with it. David then shares his clear view on the Minimum Service Standards that are likely to hit a wall of protest. Frank then considers the value, or not, of the bursary system that is trying to attract new teachers to the profession, and keeping them. The chat ends with consideration of the state of Music education and the important role of Centrepoint. It's a belting chat with humour and positivity as well as some criticism. We hope you enjoy it. We did!
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Sir David Carter was a guest on Frank and Stan Chat in September 2022 and we were delighted to welcome him back to find out what has caught his eye this week? The chat considers The Elgin Marbles and what it says about leadership. Also enables us all to reflect on the tricky meeting with a parent/carer and how best to deal with it. David then shares his clear view on the Minimum Service Standards that are likely to hit a wall of protest. Frank then considers the value, or not, of the bursary system that is trying to attract new teachers to the profession, and keeping them. The chat ends with consideration of the state of Music education and the important role of Centrepoint. It's a belting chat with humour and positivity as well as some criticism. We hope you enjoy it. We did!
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This week the chat tries not get in a tail spin over a variety of Ofsted issues. Meena Wood is a former HMI, Principal, local authority adviser, author and public speaker and a strong critic of the current inspection arrangements. During the chat she explains how differently other countries inspect their schools and wonders why there is not a greater focus on this. Stan considers why Maintained Nurseries achieve such a high Ofsted outcome compared to other phases. The comments made by HMCI on Women's Hour about the social contract between school and parents/carers, Caversham PS and the general sense that 'It's not me, it's you' (the current Schools Week headline) are considered. The chat ends positively and we hope it is helpful and informative. Please tell us it is isn't. We need to know.
Point of correction. In the video Meena suggests HMCI is a Civil Servant. This is correct but she is appointed by the King she can only be dismissed by him.
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It is great to have weekly chats with colleagues who know each other well and feel safe chatting about things. There is a higher level of trust and respect. This is certainly the case for this week's chat with Stephen McMullan. Stephen worked with Frank as one of the most senior colleagues at the Coop Academies Trust when Frank was CEO there. He became a Senior HMI with Ofsted and then followed in Stan's footsteps as a senior officer at Wakefield MBC. The chat covers a recent report from the Youth Endowment Trust that suggested some young people were scared to attend school and the worrying reasons. Stan considers his recent contact with his GP surgery and why effective leadership is so important and Frank considers the outcomes a recent evaluation he undertook of the latest batch of MAT Summary Evaluations by Ofsted. The chat ends with a discussion about The Hungry Caterpillar and a video of Stephen reading this to his Wakefield colleagues when he left the Council earlier this year. We are delighted to reveal that we have a copy of that video and it is at the end of our chat. Enjoy!
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Every week we usually have a great guest drawn from a range of roles involved in education. But, this week we have excelled ourselves by having as our guest Prof Andy Hargreaves, the visiting Professor at University of Ottawa, Research Professor at Boston College, an elected member of the US National Academy of Education and current adviser to the First Minister of Scotland. In addition he has published over 30 books and has eight outstanding writing awards. He is ranked 15th by Education Week (US) with the most influence on the US education policy debate.
The discussion focuses on Andy's most recently published book 'Leadership from the Middle' which looks at the topic from many different angles and includes fascinating perspectives on autonomy and 'top down' approaches. Andy, also considers the main themes from his soon to be published collaboration with longtime friend Dennis Shirley called 'The Age of Identity'.
It is a highly enjoyable chat for Frank and Stan and we hope it provides interest, insight and a chance to reflect on some crucial leadership issues.
Enjoy....we did!
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A few months ago Frank met Dave McPartlin at a glitzy event in Blackpool. Dave, Headteacher at Flakefleet Primary School in Fleetwood has recently spoken out publicly about the current Ofsted arrangements and how these were impacting on his wellbeing as well as other senior leaders. He mentioned some work he was proud of at his school so we decided to record this week's Frank and Stan Chat in the school's new community cafe. The chat explains why the cafe is important to the school's community and how it was funded (spoiler alert: No school funds were used in the making of the cafe). He also gives an insight how he feels about his leadership role and we all consider the chaos that appears to have been at No.10 during Covid. We all consider the terrible events that are taking place in Gaza and how teachers must try to navigate their way through this with their pupils.
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Carolyn Eyre is a nationally recognised expert on safeguarding. She returns to Frank and Stan Chat to discuss what's caught her eye this week but also to explain the significant changes in statutory and non-statutory arrangements that come into place before the end of 2023. Nearly all of the proposed changes were completely new to Frank (what's new, we hear you cry!). If you are a trustee, governor, senior leader in a trust, school or setting this chat is well worth watching/listening to. Frank also offers deep respect for brilliantly talented and committed staff who stick with a school despite poor Ofsted gradings and Carolyn reflects on a new non-plastic poppy. So, lots of variety and we hope interest for you all. Enjoy!
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It is always a pleasure to have guests on Frank and Stan Chat who feel relaxed and willing to be open and honest. Lisa Fathers, Director of Education and Partnerships at Bright Futures Educational Trust, fits that bill. The chat covers mathematics for Primary Schools, what the Shadow Secretary of State for Education may have meant when she suggested more regular inspections on the most important issues, the importance of political awareness but maintaining impartiality, brushing teeth and why being honest about a lack of knowledge or an error of judgement are important features of effective leadership. A great 30 minutes or so. We hope you enjoy it as much as we did in making the video/podcast.
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The two gents are joined by three senior education leaders from the south coast. Shelley Baker, Will Baldwin and Grainne Byrd share a strong commitment to the importance of citizenship and use it to drive school improvement through engagement and connection. An interesting week for the chat with the Prime Minister announcing a number of education and infrastructure decisions. The chat considers many of these and reflects on how open and transparent the decision-making process was and how it contrasts with the way the education leaders would have made important decisions. If you fancy an insight into the Post 16 exam reforms, cancellation of HS2, the persistent problem of poor attendance, schools as a sanctuary and the use of the word 'I' then this chat is for you.
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A few months ago Dr Rebecca Lawton was a guest on the weekly Frank and Stan Chat. During the discussion, she mentioned a number of initiatives she had introduced to improve teacher workload, recruitment and retention. We invited Rebecca back to focus fully on her initiatives including the introduction of a 4 day week for staff. It is an amazing chat that captures innovation, leadership and a real commitment to the wellbeing of staff and pupils.
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It is an absolute pleasure to spend an hour each week chatting formally (while recording) and informally (prior to and after the recording) with our guests. This week Aelwyn Pugh, a former longstanding HMI, joined our chat and provided real food for thought around what a broad and balanced curriculum looks like and whether it is actually available for all pupils. Stan considers a new approach for the DfE where they announce that they are addressing workload issues by in effect stopping things that teaching staff don't actually do. Frank makes clear why Ofsted subject reports should be all about what inspectors found. It is a really interesting chat and throughout Aelwyn offers his great sense of humour and incredible insight.
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Timing is very important in ensuring we get the right guest at the right time. In the world of Frank and Stan Chat much of this is down to luck. Today's edition is a good example because the night before this edition Co-operative UK, the organisation that Rose Marley is CEO won the Business of the Year Award at a glitzy Manchester venue. Rose is a great guest because she raises important points for education drawn from non-education events. A good example is the way she considered the apology from the Police regarding the arrest of protestors at the Sarah Everard vigil. She explains how protest is important, how various governments have tried to restrict it and how this approach leans into education. The chat rolls on to school uniform, the place of cooperatives in academic studies at school, the place of the MBacc, the need for a wide experience for students including skills, the importance of whistleblowing and why it should be encouraged, why the death of BTECs is a crime for some poorer and lower attaining students and a host of other things. It's a cracking chat. Frank and Stan are lucky to know these wonderful guests who add so much to our weekly discussions. Enjoy.
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After a break of five weeks to recharge the batteries the two long time friends are back for their 5th academic year. This week's chat focuses on the problems some schools and the government have encountered regarding aerated concrete. A week when the Secretary of State for Education swore during an interview with ITV, when some schools returned their building survey questionnaires to find the DfE didn't have an accurate list and Sir Martyn Oliver was interviewed by the Education Select Committee. In addition, the gents chat about their journey as inspectors and why having a Chief Inspector who understands inspection is an important attribute. Also Frank reflects on his support for Southend United and why, during a period of immense uncertainty Kevin Maher, their manager, has managed to encourage the team to play for the fans, the town and their own self respect. He is showing some outstanding leadership. And finally, Stan makes public his gratitude for what Frank does!!!! Enjoy.
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A rather personal Frank and Stan Chat for Frank this week as he has invited a good friend of his son, Chris Murphy, as the guest. Chris chose not to follow the path many of his friends followed when they left secondary school and College finally ending up at university. Chris chose an apprenticeship through a sprinkler installation business and this has enabled him to progress to be a Director of the business. He also identified a problem in how businesses order and quote for work so he has developed an app called ONSO, which enables greater control of the process and enables users to investigate the data more accurately. Stan kicks off by questioning The Express newspaper and the PM and Chancellor's basic understanding of mathematics, before Chris considers whether footballers should have a higher moral benchmark than others and Frank congratulates Ofsted for his insightful report on T Levels. It's the final chat of the academic year and a great one to sign off for five weeks. Enjoy.
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Another great guest this week as Frank and Stan Chat about Artificial Intelligence (or at least Nihad Celic does), the Secretary of State believes headteachers should provide one of the most expensive taxi services in the country and the honesty of a footballer revealing his mental health challenges. The section on AI is worth watching alone as Nihad explains how the emphasis on knowledge is currently misplaced and why we need to develop greater appreciation of human contact and expression for our youngest pupils as teaching and learning morphs into something never seen before. Fascinating. Nihad also explains how he has developed a digital product that reduces workload and improved feedback to pupils. You can find out more at https://vibbl.co.uk
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This week Frank and Stan Chat with clinical psychologist Dr Gill L'Anson about her work on leadership and how the pandemic has affected the wellbeing of senior leaders. Gill brings her research and insight to bear on the issues of the week. She stresses the need to draw on 'the best psychological knowledge we have to help improve things..... and we need to be much less polarised'. Stan chats about a tweet he had read about not hugging a child, then Gill considers the considered nature of a letter that a group of female students sent to Rishi Sunak about single sex toilets and Frank reflects on teachers' strike and lack of information for every school to be able to set a budget all of which boil down to the government's unwillingness to be open. One of the most enjoyable chats of the year. let us know what you think.
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This week the two gents chat to James Eldon, Principal at Manchester Academy, a member of the Headteachers' Roundtable and advocate for the thinking around the recently announced MBacc. The chat begins with Stan reflecting on the power of Ministers in ordering or demanding that Ofsted inspects a school where a story about a student identifying as a Cat ran wild in newspapers recently. James considers the implications of this event on the most senior leader in the school and why these issues hinder colleagues from taking the most senior position in our schools. He then looks at the retention of staff in general and explains why change in complex schools is often not in line with the regularity of Ofsted inspections. Frank then applauds the latest report on EDI from the English and Wales Cricket Board. he draws attention to the challenges faced by those wanting to progress in the sport from poorer communities. James concludes the chat by explaining why he got involved in the MBacc and why it is an attempt to try and offer a more meaningful route for those not wanting a purely academic one. Great chat, even if we say so ourselves. Hope you enjoy.
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This week our chat needed a quick change of plan. The planned guest was unable to join us but fortunately, Lucy Trueman Founder and CEO of TruemanChange Ltd was available. Having been a guest three times previously Lucy knew the ropes so we just ploughed into the weekly education chat. Stan considered the events in parliament and how he felt that a clearer sign of collective responsibility across the House would have been helpful. He related the issue to governing bodies formally agreeing to a decision made by one of the sub-committees. Frank then asked Lucy to explain whether local authorities had, on the whole, reverted back to pre-pandemic working practices or whether some had taken the decision to work differently? The answer was encouraging. Lucy then discussed how recruitment practices had developed a risk averse approach which sometimes meant that potentially strong candidates did not shine through. She also offered insight into how some were using a more varied assessment approach. Frank then shared the findings of a recent research paper into regional inequalities and how it emphasised the need for education but also some important macro factors to be included. The link to the report is at the end of the video. Another enjoyable discussion with Lucy. She now holds the record number of appearances as a guest on the chat. Enjoy.
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Following a week's break Frank and Stan Chat is back with Debbie Clinton as their guest. A former secondary school Headteacher in the NE, ex HMI and former CEO of a multi academy trust in the Midlands Debbie now supports a variety of schools around the country. The chat takes place following the resignation of Boris Johnson, the announcement by Ofsted that they are tweaking their school inspection arrangements and the distressing events in Nottingham when two university students and a school caretaker were murdered. All of these issues are covered in the chat while Stan reflects on how it is sometimes impossible to know colleagues really well. It's a fascinating discussion and despite the sombre events we did manage to smile now and again. Hope you find the chat professionally useful. There is also a request for followers to help Frank and Stan connect with a teacher in Ukraine so that we can invite them as a future guest.
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A fascinating guest this week and a focus on her Doctoral thesis into the uniqueness, or otherwise of Ofsted reports. Rebecca considered how language in the reports led to subsequent improvements in outcomes, were there any emerging trends, any influencing factors that affected language or impact and within the area for improvement were there any particularly effective or impactful phrases that drove improvement. It is a very important piece of research and makes clear Ofsted reports are far from unique. We also have time for what's caught our eye this week so Stan kicks off his personal IT problems in Anglesey and how this is affecting businesses. Rebecca then explains how Special Schools appear to have been forgotten (again!) and Frank considers the complexity of tackling weak attendance and growing numbers of suspensions and exclusions. Rebecca closes the chat considering how the profession needs to open up to greater inclusion when training teachers for the future. It's a good 'un.
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This week Shaheen Myers, Deputy Director of Learning for Leeds City Council joins the guests and highlights issues around mental health and wellbeing for senior leaders. Stan chips in with thoughts about Ofsted while Shaheen considers the impact of variability within inspections on the confidence and sense of belonging for senior leaders. Frank shares some research he's undertaken on how schools are advertising vacancies and how they might need to up their game. The gents agreed to invite Shaheen back as a Spotlight guest to focus more extensively on mental health and wellbeing issues. Hope you enjoy the chat and we welcome any suggestions for we might improve the format or ideas for future guests.
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This week the two gents are joined by Eddie Czestochowski, founder and Managing Director of Cell Pack Solutions Ltd, a battery manufacturer based in the North east. In addition to having a busy working life Eddie is also a keen chess player and is encouraging children and young people to begin playing the game. Whether it is opening a chess club in a local library or going into schools to teach the game Eddie is on a mission to get every school playing chess. Stan kicks off the chat with some observations about a rather high profile headteacher and her comments at a conference this week. Eddie then reflects on his early interest in AL and his venture into Chat GTP while Frank considers the successes (given great prominence) and weaknesses (not in too many Ministerial briefings this week) following the release of the PIRL International Assessment results. It is such a pleasure to spend time chatting with such interesting and socially minded guests. Thank you Eddie.
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When we started Frank and Stan Chat in May 2020 we never imagined we would get to episode 5 but here we are at edition 150! And we are breaking new ground by having the brilliant Russell Harvey, the Resilience Coach as our guest for the third time. No other guest has managed that....yet! This week Stan wonders whether the Speaker of the House of Commons is actually a supply teacher. Russell then considers how powerful small acts of kindness are and points to research that backs up his view. Frank then considers the apparently ultra-difficult SATs papers for Y6 and how they have restricted the curriculum and points to an interesting article by Liz Robinson and Sarah Seleznyov in the latest edition of Impact from the Chartered College which emphasises 'an education of the head, heart and hand'. Frank and Stan enjoyed the chat immensely. We hope our followers also enjoy it.
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We are fortunate to have many amazing guests on our weekly chat. This week we are joined by Prof Jackie Carter from University of Manchester. It is a thoroughly enjoyable chat. Jackie offers some amazing insights into her own education journey and how these have influenced the work she undertakes with undergraduates. She strongly believes that tech and digital industries needs to include greater diversity of thought and much of this can come from those interested in social sciences rather than just STEM subjects. Stan kicks things off by explaining how he has interrogated some data from Ofsted that Frank secured through an FOI request. He discovered that there is one month this academic year where there was a tenfold increase in the number of inadequate grades awarded for primary schools. Jackie then explains why she is so keen to enable social science students into the world of work and Frank draws attention to some rather troubling figures from Ofqual regarding the chances of a GCSE or A Level grade being upgraded following an appeal. Jackie concludes the chat making clear what she would do if she was Secretary of State for Education for one day. I know we often comment on how brilliant our guests are but Jackie is truly one of the very best. Enjoy!!!
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Every now and again Frank and Stan are able to invite a colleague who has gained a national profile and provides a broader insight. This is such a week. We were delighted to spend 35 minutes or so chatting to Ed Dorrell, the Director of Public First and former Deputy Editor of the TES. Stan gets things moving by referring to a recent NFER report that explains how senior leaders are having to cut into their budgets to balance the books. The impact appears to include fewer Teaching Assistants and external visits including residential for pupils. Ed then reflects on the very low attendance figures in many schools and shares a very recent anecdotal story to highlight the challenge. The chat moves into the effectiveness (or not) of Covid Recovery programmes and EHE. Frank then gets two bites of the cherry. Firstly, he considers recent communication he has had with OFQUAL and how disappointing it is in terms of supporting students living in the most disadvantaged areas in the country. He then asks Ed and Stan to consider the current impact of Chat GPT. It is a special chat and we hope you enjoy it. Next week we celebrate three years of Frank and Stan Chat. No cakes or champagne even though it will be a sort of work party. Just more chat this time with Prof Jackie Carter.
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Ofsted trying to salvage some reputation from a miserable and depressing few weeks/months and the Deputy Prime Minister resigning are all announced just hours and minutes prior to this week's recording of the Frank and Stan Chat. So, clearly alleged bullying, safeguarding and other inspection related issues are covered. There was also enough time to reflect on how leaders manage their teams and how this helps them through crises. And Stan has some great family news. It's certainly a humdinger of an edition, so hold on to your hats!
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This week the two gents chat to Maeve Birdsall and Jasmine Priestley again. They are joined this time by Claire Clithero. All three guests are strongly influenced by Reggio Emilia philosophy. This approach was developed in Northern Italy and continues today. It is an approach to teaching, learning and advocacy for children and in its most basic form, is a way of observing what children know, are curious about and what challenges them. Stan kicks off the chat considering what the government's vision for academy improvement is and how it doesn't appear to link too closely to Ofsted outcomes. Maeve then considers the impact of the 25 year old Good Friday Agreement and how it has brought relative peace and why it remains a crucial element in securing Northern Ireland's future. Jasmine discusses the sense of unrest within the teaching profession and why the national strikes are taking place. Claire reflects on the misunderstanding many members of the general public have of the profession and why this is stoked by some media outlets. The discussion then moves on to principled leadership in the light of a sting on an MP this week. Frank then asks the Early Years colleagues to explain how they developed their learning philosophy and how this was captured brilliantly in their book Rainbow Birds. Its a great chat. A new approach adopted accidentally in that the screen moves to the speaker rather than have all guests on screen at the same time. let us know whether viewers prefer this approach, or not.
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This week the two gents chat to Adrian Gray, a former senior HMI, who led the Challenge and Analysis Team at Ofsted when Frank was leading on school, Early Years and ITE Frameworks. Adrian was always looking for particular issues that had not been detected before. This made him very useful in identifying weaknesses in Frameworks and their delivery. He is a historian and geographer and has produced a number of interesting videos based on his local area in East England. Anyway, this chat focuses on his research into Ofsted Deep Dives in Primary Schools, what's the likelihood of a small school being judged Outstanding and a request for equalities information from the inspectorate. Some revealing and quite shocking outcomes. Stan considers the statement made by HMCI last week following the publication of the inspection report at Caversham PS and Frank ends why praise for the Children's Commissioner.
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Carolyn Eyre is a safeguarding consultant who worked for the trust Frank led. Her guest appearance had been planned for months but it is timely as it follows the recent publication of the Ofsted report at Cavendish Primary School. The chat considers how safeguarding requirements have changed over the past decade and why variability in the approaches of inspectors makes it difficult to determine inspection outcomes. Carolyn is one of the best informed safeguarding colleagues and is passionate about helping settings where children live and learn to be as safe as possible. If you are wondering whether your approach to safeguarding is sufficiently embedded into the school's culture then this chat is worth a listen. It also includes the upbeat story of a defibrillator saving a Headteacher's life.
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This week with Stan away Frank undertakes the chat with Susan Breckell, a regular guest on the show. The guest is Anne Morris, Founder and CEO of Yipiyap, a longstanding tutoring organisation that employs students on gap years to work with pupils in secondary schools and Colleges. Anne explains how Yipiyap has grown and how it remained positive despite some setbacks in getting accredited to the National Tutoring Programme. All is well now, and the number of students it supports is at record levels. The chat considers the devastating news of a Headteacher committing suicide following a disappointing Ofsted inspection. A wider discussion follows reflecting on the inadequate accountability measures that often result in burn out and despair for far too many senior leaders. Consideration is then given to the problems around attendance and why the ITT reforms are impacting so negatively on the most disadvantaged communities. Anne then has two issues that she believes would improve education in England.
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The latest guest on the Frank and Stan Chat is Jonny Uttley, the CEO of The Education Alliance. The gents have been trying hard to secure Jonny as a guest because he is noted for his principled and value laden approach to leadership. The chat starts with Stan reflecting on the recent death of Bill Tidy, a longstanding cartoonist who worked for The Mirror. Jonny then considers the possible impact of Bridget Phillipson's keynote at the ASCL conference a few days ago. He focuses in on the accountability measures and the negative impact of OFSTED. Frank then draws attention to the impartiality issues surrounding Gary Lineker and brings this back to RSE, history, politics and philosophy teaching. He believes teachers manage this extraordinarily well despite the noise being made by a few. Jonny then states that he would like to see more consideration given to the context of settings and the circumstances teachers and pupils work within. It's a great chat. Enjoy.
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A very special and important Frank and Stan Chat this week. Following the recent publication of the Annual Report from Headstart, the support network for senior school and trust leaders, the gents chat to key members of the organisation, Ros McMullen and Peter Crockett. These colleagues have played crucial roles in establishing, developing and maintaining Headrest and offer quite worrying and at times disturbing insights into the calls they receive. We have produced 140 editions of Frank and Stan Chat and this one is the most concerning so I would urge all education leaders to watch/listen. The edition covers the story of how Headrest was formed, how it works and what the key stressors have been in the past year. if offers a deeply worrying insight into the role of Ofsted. We urge all to watch.
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This week the two gents chat to Zaitoon Zukhari, a former Science teacher who has now become a leading educator for digital education within her trust and also for Google in the UK. Zaitoon explains how she led the transformation of learning and the introdcution of digital devices for pupils and students across the trust she works for. We havent forgotten the popular 'What's caught your eye?' slot so Stan chips in with a view on the lack of national guidance regarding what is an acceptable reason for a pupil having time off school. Zaitoon considers the need for effective mentoring and supporting for new teachers and is surprised that large national trusts do not appear to give this sufficiently high priority. Frank then reflects on the recent TeacherTapp survey that found significant differences in workload issues between primary and secondary colleagues. Zaitoon offers a clear change that could improve teaching quality across the country. It's a fascinating chat. Hope you all enjoy it.
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This week's Frank and Stan Chat is slightly different. The two gents have invited Dan Worsley, a children's author who previously worked in a Blackpool primary school, to return for a chat in the build up to World Book day in early March. The chat has been created to enable schools who cannot secure an author to find out how they come up with their ideas, how they develop them and how many times they revise the writing before the book is published. Dan is an extraordinary guest and this chat allows him to explain the story lines behind his six publications. He also reads the opening page of a short story and shares the origins of it and how he grabs the attention of the reader. Stan shares some of his early reading books and Frank explains why the book he is currently reading reminds him of his childhood.
Frank and Stan Chat would be interested in hearing from schools that share this edition with schools, classes and groups of pupils to find out whether they should continue with this approach and how following editions might be improved.
Enjoy!
When we started the Frank and Stan Chat in May 2020 we never envisaged anything more than two ol' educationalists chatting about issues that caught our eyes recently. Now, after 136 editions we have to pinch ourselves when we consider how lucky we have been to have so many brilliant guests joining our chats. This week is no exception and we were blown away with the issues considered by Mel Ainscow. He explains how his focus on equity has led to him contributing to education research that has influenced strategies and policies across the Globe. He explains how impressed he has been with the work undertaken over many years in Portugal and how he is supporting new thinking in Dundee. Stan considers how the White Paper published with great fanfare last year has been decimated. Mel stresses the need for stronger local collaboration to improve education before Frank considers the research being undertaken into indicators of poverty and why data alone is simply not good enough. It is a truly amazing chat and we urge school leaders to share with staff the sections where Mel explains why schools need to be for all pupils and how competition has been corrosive for too many. Enjoy, cos we certainly did!
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This week the two gents discover the world of Ancient Civilisation and how it is becoming increasingly popular together with the teaching of Latin. Peter Wright from Blackpool 6th Form College explains vividly how he is exciting a wide range of students and encouraging more and more to study his area of expertise. The chat is truly an education for Frank and Stan as both have a shallow understanding of Ancient History and no knowledge of Latin. When the chat gets on to recent education matters Stan draws attention to a recent study that suggests female Lead Inspectors are more harsh than their male colleagues when inspecting Primary Schools. Unsurprising HMI are even more harsh. Peter then considers the place of the British Empire in society and how other civilisations also struggled at times to come to terms with past glories and how best to refer to them. Frank offers some insight into recent dismissals of senior politicians and how it appears easier to keep their role if they are unpopular than senior education leaders. Peter closes the chat with a desire for a return to more modular examinations, a topic raised in the past by Barry Norris, and Dr James Mannion. It's a fascinating chat with a highly engaging guest.
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This week the two gents chat to Alan Kinson, an experienced Chair of Governors and a Digital Infrastructure Lead at a major retailer. The chat starts with Stan reporting on the encouraging signs coming from a large MAT that is planning to strengthen the role of parents within its governance structure. Alan then considers the amazing visit made by King Charles III when he visited GCHQ in Central Manchester and met pupils from Coop Academy New Islington. Alan ponders on the knowledge and skills required for new entrants coming into a business and why it is so much more than certificates. He explains the efforts the Coop is making to attract a wider range of candidates to posts and how their recruitment processes have needed to radically change. Frank then reflects on an amazing visit he made this week to Blackpool and Fylde College where he met the relatively new Head of Computing. He was struck by the way the College is trying to make digital qualifications easier to understand and was delighted to hear that those on Digital T Levels were being swallowed up by the businesses they have been allocated to for the practical work experience element of the qualification. Alan closes the chat considering the impact of austerity on special education needs provision and the effect it is having on the most vulnerable. A far reaching and interesting chat. Enjoy.
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This week the two gents have a fascinating chat with Louise Salmon, CEO of Primary Goal, a digital training provider. The conversation includes the impact of the announcement of teachers striking in the coming weeks and the decision to allocate levelling up funding to some, but by no means all, areas that bid for it. Louise manages to include three issues that cover the age of children using smart phones, cyber attacks on schools and trusts as well as the negative impact of Ofsted on subject leaders for computing. The chat finishes with Louise suggesting businesses should be affiliated to schools in their area to energise work experience and related issues. Once again a great guest contributes so much to our chat. Well worth a listen.
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The final chat of 2022 sees Eric Craven 'The Scouse Poet' return one the day his new poetry website goes live, www.ericscraven.com. The chat covers the poor condition of some school buildings, the importance of affirmation as a key leadership skill and the right to withdraw labour, as a final resort. Eric reads three of his whimsical poems and Frank reveals the most viewed editions from 2022 and the those that have been watched for the longest period of time. Frank and Stan reflect on key editions that have stuck in their thinking and offer deep gratitude to all guests, viewers and listeners. Have a very Happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year.
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We have tried many times to secure a slot for Sameena Choudry to join our weekly chat but our best efforts failed. She does, however, join us this week and it was well worth the wait. If you want to listen to a colleague committed to equity and social justice, then this chat won't disappoint. It is a timely reminder that not all education settings are the same primarily because they all serve different children and young people in different contexts. Following a discussion about Sameena's extensive work, Stan reflects on the traditions played out in many schools in the lead up to Christmas. He reveals his sensitive side. Sameena then considers the important messages for policy leaders in the latest Education Policy Institute report on the impact of Covid-19 on the most disadvantaged students. Frank then reflects on Ofsted's Annual Report and wonders how recruitment and retention became the big issue when few, if any, school inspection report mentioned the problem. It's a good, open and easy flowing chat. We hope you enjoy it.
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We have enjoyed chatting to Lucy Trueman, the Managing Director of TruemanChange in the past so we asked her to come back and become the guest with the highest number of appearances (3) at the moment. Lucy's expertise in managing significant projects for many public sector organisations including local authorities makes her a fascinating and well informed guest. This episode is all about Leadership with only short coverage of this week's education events. Lucy and Stan begin to unpick the lazy narrative that focuses on what leadership is and offer a much more nuanced and humane insight. It is worth listening/watching and considering whether other school staff should also give the Frank and Stan Chat a go? We all have to lead in our lives, some with greater responsibility than others, but this chat may help with a reconsideration of what is more effective. Enjoy, Stan and Frank really did.
Two previous and great guests return to Frank and Stan Chat this week. Jonny Mitchell, Principal at Netherwood Academy and Caroline Foster, Senior Vice Principal at Trinity Academy Grammar join the chat during a week when the government's autumn statement offers a much needed financial boost for schools but only takes funding back to 2010 levels. Stan considers allegations of Ministers bullying again; Jonny reflects on the super human efforts of Kevin Sinfield in raising funds for charity; Caroline draws attention to the John Lewis Christmas advert and how it highlights the needs of children in care. Frank points to the damning statistic that 2/3 of all local authorities inspected by Ofsted for SEND provision were found to be less than good. Room 101 choices are a hoot. Enjoy.
This week Frank and Stan Chat to Fiona Spellman, CEO of SHINE, an education charity that works with teachers, schools, and other organisations, helping disadvantaged children in the North of England to fulfil their true potential. The chat considers the massive contribution teachers with an innovative idea play in driving improvement and how challenging this can be in some schools. Fiona acknowledges the amazing work of many educators and explains why SHINE supports an award to recognise and enable classroom practitioners to carry on with their work. Stan then considers the warning noises being made by business managers about the state of school finances. Fiona then reflects on a recent report from Child Poverty Action on those children who are not quite eligible for free school meals and the poverty they are experiencing. Frank then considers the importance of listening to what young people are saying about preparation for work. Fiona's selection for Room 101 will strike a chord with many. Enjoy.
This week the gents are joined by Kevin Turner, Co-Artistic Director of Company Chameleon, a contemporary dance organisation based in Greater Manchester. Kevin created the company with a friend, Anthony Missen and have established an international reputation for groundbreaking approaches to dance. Kevin got his first opportunity to perform dance when he excelled at a Northern Ballet Theatre Company residence when at Primary School. The chat considers his life story including his struggles with mental health before Kevin reflects on a letter wrapped round a rock sent by a child at an immigration centre this week. Stan then draws attention to the way Twitter employees have been treated and then Frank shares his reaction to senior leaders who are genuinely struggling with decisions over academisation. The chat ends with Kevin's Room 101 selection. Frank and Stan agreed fully with his choice. Oh, and the chat includes a section where Frank is deeply moved, and it wasn't, as Stan suggests, I had to open my wallet! Enjoy.
This week the hosts are joined by Phil Naylor, a senior leader at South Shore Academy in Blackpool and John Stephens, CEO of the trust for that school. John was a guest on Edition 25 of the Frank and Stan Chat but for Phil this is his first outing. Phil had his first book published recently called 'Naylor's Natter'. This is a collection of some of the insights that he gained from hosting a regular podcast with some eminent education thinkers over the past few years. The chat covers:
1. the recent Blunkett Report and how it has stirred some unrest (not a bad thing, in our opinion),
2. the importance of integrity,
3. The impact (or not) of 12 different leaders of the DfE in 10 years, and
4. The reappointment of a certain Nick Gibb
The chat finishes with the usual Room 101 selections.
We hope you enjoy it.
A late change of guest sees Kendra Allen returning to Frank and Stan Chat share her pearls of wisdom on all things Education. The week has seen a change of PM but this isn't the main topic of conversation until that is Kendra decides to put the entire government in Room 101. Stan starts by reflecting on the recent subject guidance produced by ousted for its inspectors. He's analysed many of them and has tried to utilise them for self evaluation purposes, but there is a fundamental problem; their is no consistency. Kendra then reflects on the planned review into teaching approaches proposed by a certain social mobility tsar and Headteacher. She's not happy to say the least. Frank then considers the opening of the Bond Street Station tomorrow which is £550m over budget. Yep, imagine what a difference that could make to education. We are predicting high viewing figures. Reason? Kendra Allen is our guest. Enjoy.
This week the two gents do not have a guest so Frank decides to find out the influences that moulded Stan's education philosophy. They also chat about the close link between Year 1 Phonics' scores and the child's age; no surprises there. Frank recalls a visit he made recently to the wonderfully joyful Thames Primary Academy in Blackpool and the memories it provided of his first Ofsted inspection as an inspector with Stan, way back in 1995. Enjoy.
This week Frank and Stan Chat breaks new ground. Firstly, Stan is replaced for one week by Susan Breckell, our most viewed guest. Secondly, the chat covers for the first time environmental issues with Nick Atherton, a landscape architect who has led a major DfE funded environmental project with a school in West Sussex. Susan considers whether an effective leader must be able to instil confidence when speaking to a large audience. Nick considers whether he's part of the 'anti-growth coalition' and Frank reflects on the wonders of Blackpool's Chef's Academy. Nick explains how he his work supports teaching and learning and how it will have a long term impact on schools. His Room 101 choice is spot on! Really enjoyable and informative chat. We've already arranged for Nick to come back in February 2023. Too much to cover in one 30 minute video cast/podcast.
This week the two gents are joined by two strong advocates for Physically Active Learning (PAL). Bryn LLewellyn is co-author of a recently published book called 'Move and Learn'. The book draws on rich practical experience drawn from training teachers in over 400 schools and is supported by academic research that draws attention to the value for children's development. Alun Davies is a strong advocate for the approach and has a wealth of experience at senior leadership level drawn from across all phases of schooling. Both guests talk with passion and a fair degree of humour. Stan kicks off with an article he found in a Secondary Education paper that considers some of the limitations of retrieval approaches. Bryn and Frank reflect on two musical experiences in Leeds this week and Alun reflects on comments made by Gary Neville. Room 101 is fun, let's leave it at that.
This week the gents chat to Maeve Birdsall and Jasmine Priestley about their Early Years philosophy and how it produces stunning outcomes (across the board). Inspired by approaches developed in Reggio Emilia these colleagues have developed pedagogy that has been adopted, followed and introduced across the country. It has led to praise from 'Early Excellence' and the publication of two books 'The Wrinkle People' and 'Rainbow Birds'. Much of the chat is about their approaches to planning, delivery and atmosphere but we do get on to 'What's caught your eye this week?" Stan kicks of with queuing, Maeve and Jasmine offer research into Motor Neurone Disease and Frank sees fracking Grammar schools as a dead cat moment. The choice of Room 101 is educationally controversial. It's another good 'un. Enjoy
It was a privilege to spend 30 minutes or so chatting to Sir David Carter, the Former National Schools Commissioner. Much of the discussion focused on teacher recruitment and the equally important aspect of teacher retention. The conversation flowed so well that Frank and Stan had barely sufficient time to capture their 'What's caught your eye this week?'. Room 101 saw Grammar Schools banished to the dark place. The chat contains some insightful observations from David with the odd supporting comments from the two hosts. It is a gem of a chat.
This week Frank and Stan chat to Sonia Dixon, an award winning poet and supporter of senior leaders facing into challenging times. The chat covers the dramatic impact of energy costs on schools, families and businesses. It then shifts to the impact of exam results on leader confidence and considers why so many strong teachers and leaders are choosing to leave the profession. Frank raises his eyebrows at the appointment of Baroness Deborah Bull as chair of a group developing a national culture development plan without a budget! Room 101 sees our guest selecting Stan for Room 101 but for an unusual reason. Please note that Frank tries hard not to over use the word 'actually'. See for your self if he was successful. Enjoy.
The two gents are back after the summer break and are joined by Harry Hortyn, CEO of the Oxford University Summer School and trustee of University. Harry got to know Frank when he approached him as CEO of the Coop Academies Trust to see if there was interest in supporting academically able students to consider a university experience. Students are continuing to visit the prestigious university during the Easter and Summer breaks. The chat begins with Stan considering leadership from the government, or lack of it, then Harry chats about his three month old rolling over for the first time and then shares some insights into the importance of sustainable business practices. Frank then considers the benefits of free university education against higher taxes. Harry then throws Ed Tech into Room 101. It's a great edition and wonderful to be back.
For the final Frank and Stan Chat of the academic year the gents are joined by Peter Cox, the CEO of the True Learning Partnership. Frank worked with Peter while at Ousted. He moved on to work for CfBT as a senior manager and has undertaken advisory work for the DfE. His varied and interesting career flows through his comments in this chat. Stan kicks off reflecting on the decision to make KS1 assessments non-statutory from September 2023. Peter considers the impact of the 5% pay rise for teachers announced a few days ago and the soaring energy bills that are hitting school budgets hard. Frank then reflects on the recent Ofsted report on how schools are helping pupils to recovery as they return fully to the classroom. He notes that the report states that 'it cannot be assumed to be representative of the whole sector' and questions what's the point of the report and why don't current school inspections cover these issues in greater detail? Peter reveals his Room 101 choice and the chat ends with thanks and deep gratitude for the support and encouragement Frank and Stan have received during the year. Guests are lined up for the rest of the year so it doesn't look as though the weekly chats will grind to a halt any time soon. There is now a six week gap before the chats start up again on 2nd September. Enjoy!
Following a tweet that Frank sent out a few days ago about Ofsted continuing to inspect during two days of incredibly high temperatures that received unprecedented levels of support the two gents decided to have a rant about Ofsted. The chat was quite measured but the disappointment is clear and a desire for change of tone and approach was called for. Let us know what you think.
This week the gents venture into the world of FE as they chat to former HMI Steven Stanley. Steven is now working in the sector as a senior manager and governor. Stan kicks off with a further development in how education can learn from the Conservative leadership campaign. Steven then raises the issue of digital skills and how these are currently affecting growth in the economy. He also ponders the salary levels of colleagues in schools and FE with digital expertise and what can be done to address the impending recruitment crisis. Frank then reflects on a recent survey that highlighted the growing vacancies for governors and trustees. Steven then throws a major issue into Room 101. A good chat about some areas we have not covered recently. Enjoy.
This week Frank and Stan have invited back the young political activist and youth leader Ishaa Asim. Ishaa appeared as the guest on the 7th edition of the Frank and Stan Chat over two years ago and is the most requested guest for a return visit. The chat includes a summary of her involvement in an international youth summit in Finland and how she was proud to host a major awards ceremony in Manchester for young carers. Stan reflects on the recent shootings in America while Ishaa considers the likely impact of government instruction to children and staff in Sri Lanka not to attend school for the next week due to fuel shortages. Frank then considers the risks of the Children's Commissioner agreeing to be a Director of the newly created and controversial National Institute of Teaching. Ishaa selects an interesting and sadly too familiar issue for her Room 101 choice. The chat is really good because it leaves much time and space for Ishaa. Enjoy.
This week our planned guest was unwell so we decided to go back to basics and record the chat in its original form; just the two of us chatting. We covered:
- the crazy suggestion that supply teachers will back fill if the profession goes on strike,
- the joy music brings,
- the printing of the Queen's Jubilee celebration booking...in Italy,
- the helpful feedback we received following the first Frank and Stan Chat Live in York
- the governance/process mess that surrounds Holland Park
- the historical importance of Burslem
- a tribute to Jeremy Richardson RIP
We hope the original format still interests our followers. Please let us know (kindly) what you think. We are back with guests for the next few weeks before we close down for the summer in late July.
Enjoy!
This week the gents are joined by Catherine McLeod MBE, CEO of Dingley's Promise 'a small charity with a big heart and a huge ambition to contribute towards building a more inclusive society' better world'. The charity provides support for children aged 0-5 who have special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) or developmental delay. The conversation starts with Stan considering one of the 40 or so recommendations in The Times Education Commission report published this week and suggests that teachers should be reaccredited every five years. He's not happy! Catherine then considers how a recent release from the singer Lizzo caused consternation for using an ableist slur but she was impressed by the speed at which the singer admitted her error and re-recorded the song. Frank then reflects on the Times Commission recommendations relating to Early Years. Catherine suggests an unusual issue to be placed in Room 101 before Frank admits who he would like to share a long journey with. Enjoy!
This week we have Sam Strickland, Principal at Duston School and author of three education books including the latest 'The Behaviour Manual'. The chat needed to be re-recorded due to technical difficulties but actually the second chat was even better than the original. We open with a discussion about Sam's book and why he tried to avoid presenting a 'one size fits all' approach because as he states 'context is crucial'. Stan then discusses the latest EPI report on 'stuck schools' and why the findings were not really a big surprise. Sam then considers some important issues within the White paper before Frank considers data on teacher recruitment and retention issued by the DfE this week. The chat closes with Sam explaining how he tackled poor behaviour at his current school and how it has transformed his leadership and the outcomes for pupils and staff. It's a good 'un and worth the wait.
Today the two gents had a chance to chat with Neil Jurd, a former army leader trained and taught at Sandhurst who has recently published a book called 'The Leadership Book'. He's also a trustee, Non-Exec Director and Leadership Course Director and a really interesting and insightful colleague. This was a highly enjoyable and hugely relevant chat and we urge colleagues to find the time to view it. We chat about the high proportion of school leaders declaring they are looking for another role or wanting to stand down, the crass comments made by the leader of the newly created National Institute of Teaching who declared they wanted to be 'the tide that lifts all boats' and recognise those we know who were in the Queen's Birthday Honours. Neil chats about his book and why the number of pages may well matter and he reveals his Room 1010 nomination. This is a stunning chat. Well worth watching.
This week the two gents chat to Prof Colin Diamond, Professor of Educational Leadership at University of Birmingham. Colin led improvements in two local authorities and also worked for the DfE as Head of Education Advisers for the Academies and Free Schools Programme. He was Deputy Education Commissioner in Birmingham and is soon to publish a book on the 'Trojan Horse' events in Birmingham 2014. He was brought up in Liverpool, supports the red side of the city and is a big fan of city based educators. Stan kicks off by considering the DfE consultation of the withdrawal of LA involvement in teacher training before Colin explains how his latest book is structured, who contributes to it and what the events have taught him about governance and leadership. Frank then reflects on his recent visit to The Borders with 20 Blackpool school leaders and business leaders. It's a good 'un. Enjoy.
This week Frank and Stan are joined by a keen follower of their weekly musings. Kendra Allen, former Headteacher, local authority adviser and now an associate with Athena Education joins the chat and provides a fascinating insight into the wellbeing of headteachers and how many want to engage with the recent White Paper but have a host of more pressing things to manage. Stan ponders on the power of a photo and what it may say about a particular leader. Frank reflects on the positive approach adopted by Headteachers at a recent conference where Stan and Kendra were present. Kendra's desire to lose the term 'National' in education policy is her nomination for Room 101. It was a joy to chat and we hope this is captured in the recording.
This week the gents are joined by Russell Harvey, the Resilience Coach. Russell has extensive experience of supporting senior leaders as they manage major change programmes and since he last appeared has become a weekly radio presenter where he plays uplifting music interspersed with tips and guidance on how to improve resilience levels. This week Stan considers the wellbeing of Headteachers and senior leaders, while Russell reflects on why the government announce possible 90k Civil Service job losses and the impact of an individual in supporting others facing a Cancer diagnosis. Frank then considers the work that has been undertaken this week to produce a Queen's Jubilee Children's Book list; an issue raised in last week's edition. The three gents then chat about leadership confidence and reflection as important elements of resilience. Russell's Room 101 entry involves, cyclists, dog owners and a canal! Enjoy.
The two gents are joined by ex Ester HMI, award winning poet and fluent Welsh speaker, Barry Norris. The chat is a special one in many respects but largely because of Barry's fresh outlook on old issues. The chat covers the debacle at Holland Park, online examinations and why there is a place for more school-based assessments, the dangers in creating a literary list for the Queen's Jubilee and what the league tables for tutoring really will show. Barry chooses summative assessment as his Room 101 submission. It's a really great, relaxed and we believe a thought provoking chat, Even includes references to 'classic' education literature from the 1960s.
This week the chat covers a recent tweet from Laura McInerney about the impact of the pandemic on teachers and how the 'cards are not falling back to where they were before', an article by George Monbiot on the impact of the examination system, the perils of being appointed as Social Mobility Commissioner with limited awareness and experience and why Frank is listening to Reina Del Cid's new album. The chat ends with a Room 101 slot which is likely to be included in all future chats.
Well, who would have thought back in May 2020 when Frank Norris and Stan Johnson started recording their weekly catch ups that nearly two years later they would have reached their centenary edition. To mark the occasion they have invited three highly regarded previous guests to join them to focus on well-being and school culture as well as consider 'what's caught their eye this week' in the world of education. The chat is unscripted and covers senior leadership loyalty when things appear to be going wrong, well-being, exams, curriculum, inspections, Latin, & why we don't often see @BlackGirlsHike but should. The conversation also considers some of the key issues from Andy's new book 'Well-being in Schools'. It was always going to be a special edition and our guests certainly rose to the occasion. Enjoy!!
This week the gents are pleased to welcome back Mike Cladingbowl. Mike is a former Director of Schools with Ofsted and undertook a major reform of local authority inspections. He is currently the CEO of a growing MAT in South Cheshire. The chat begins with Frank and Stan offering their sincere thanks to the Wakefield headteachers who attended the first live chat event held the day before in York. Stan then draws on the report findings of the awful events that took place in the maternity unit at Shrewsbury NHS Trust. He highlights the dangers when junior staff feel unable to question or speak up when they identify problems. Mike then considers the need for a national education strategy that is agreed across political parties and is a clear vision for the future. Frank then considers the dangers of a cliff edge national assessment system that labels lower attainers in a strongly negative way. The chat has a strong sense of social justice and fairness running through it. Enjoy.
This week, and a day earlier than usual, the two gents chat to the former specialist HMI, Adrian Lyons. He became HMI in 2005 and was appointed to the specialist adviser role on Business, Economics and Enterprise soon after. The chat covers the increase in the price of energy and how it is impacting on school budgets, the current Covid position in schools and how mixed messaging nationally is sometimes getting in the way, how specialist do you need to be to inspect schools, absolute poverty figures, teacher recruitment figures and how the ITT Review may play out. So, a packed chat and a highly enjoyable one for the hosts. Next week sees the Frank and Stan going live with a recording in front of 150 Headteachers in York.
This week Frank and Stan are joined by Chris Bunting who is heavily involved in the Bradford Opportunity Area, including the project that encourages young children to have a wide range of experiences before they are 5 and a strong supporter of greater use of integrated service delivery. The discussion considers loco parentis, the pressure school leaders are facing as Covid rates rise again and the effects on children and staff mental health and wellbeing. Frank pitches in with the latest (sadly not so surprising analysis from Datalab) on the chances of being a Good or better school since 2005. It was fascinating taking part and we hope others will enjoy (not sure that's the right word) it.
This week the two gents are joined by Caroline Foster Senior Vice Principal at Trinity Academy Halifax. Caroline worked with Frank when he was CEO of the Coop Academies Trust and led on reduction of workload initiatives and strategies for improving pupil attendance. She even saw him trying to teach Y10 mathematics. She was kind in her feedback. We chat about Shackleton as a leader, the current stress and strain experienced by staff due to Covid fatigue and the bizarre decision by a Catholic Bishop to prevent a gay author from speaking to students. We acknowledge the more enlightened approach offered by the governors at the school. We also consider why it is important for school communities to be content with the macadamisation process. Oh yes, much better guest than a certain Mr Mitchell. I was forced to write that Jonny. Honest!
This week the two gents have the chance to chat with Dan Morrow, the 'Trust Leader' of the Dartmoor Multi Academy Trust in the south west. Dan is an experienced trust leader and makes clear how his commitment to co-operative values and principles influences his leadership style during the chat. Stan considers how bad customer service affects a view of an organisation, then Dan reflects on the impartiality guidance issued by the DfE recently and how it is nearly always interpreted well by teachers. Frank considers his own honour in the light of the knighthood offered to Gavin Williamson. The final segment sees Dan explaining how his leadership style is governed by his strong commitment to co-operation and he makes a strong case for more leaders to fully understand its positive impact on them as individuals and the communities they serve. A stunning chat basically cos the guest is an inspiration!
This is a special Frank and Stan Chat because it has Dan Worsley, a former Primary school teacher and now children's author and storyteller as a guest. Dan taught in Blackpool for 15 years and enjoyed the writing and reading elements so much he decided to take the big step and leave his job and try to make his way as author. Six successful books later and in great demand as a guest author in schools across the North and Midlands, Dan explains where his inspiration comes from, how he constructs his stories and how it becomes all consuming. The chat is very relevant as it took place in the week of World Book Day and we hope it will be viewed by children and adults as it conveys the writing process. Dan is a lively and enthralling guest. Hope you all enjoy it.
This week the two gents chat to Jenny Mullineaux and Dave Hewitt. They appeared as individual guests last year and Jenny's appearance saw the highest number of downloads as a podcast with Dave scoring highly on the number of views on Youtube. Stan kicks off the chat with consideration of the government's plans for entry to university making clear that they are likely to impact negatively on the poorest students and those living in the North. Jenny and Dave consider the importance of story telling and how politicians can use this approach for good and evil. This week's invasion by Russian into Ukraine was not far from our thoughts. The conversation then considers why chronology might not be the best starting point for constructing a history curriculum and then moves on to why Cambridge University might be backing away from training and educating teachers. It is a relaxed chat and one of our most enjoyable. We hope you also enjoy it.
The gents are joined by a colleague Stan has known for many years. Wendy Tracey is a senior adviser with a wealth of headship experience drawn from the Primary phase. Frank explains how the chats began and where and when they met. Stan draws attention to political impartiality guidance released by the DfE this week. Wendy considers the importance of vaccinations for 5-11 year olds and Frank then rambles on about the importance of digital education. The chat ends with consideration as to how Wendy has decided not to use the National Tutoring Programme to support 'recovery' and why Frank believes the Grow_Mentoring Programme run by Sheffield Hallam University is so powerful. Enjoy!
This week the two friends chat to Glyn Potts, Headteacher at Blessed John Henry Newman RC College in Chadderton, Oldham. Frank met Glyn when the Northern Powerhouse Partnership hosted The Times Education Commission in the summer and Glyn was a special guest. His passion for justice and equity shone through on that day and these are themes that remain strong and run through the entire chat. Stan starts by considering whether the Secretary of State's intervention on whether it was right for children to write to the PM about alleged parties at No.10. Glyn then gets to the lack of an 'anchor point' for levelling up and Frank spins the discussion into the digital divide. He then reflects on the Cressida Dick resignation. Glyn reflects on his leadership style and how his time in the military influenced it and also considers the regular problems he has with a poor PFI contract that sees pipes bursting and roofs leaking on a regular basis. It is a fantastic chat largely due to Glyn's perceptive angle on things. Enjoy.
Following the success of Liz Robinson's first chat with us last year we decided it was time to invite her back. Always thought provoking and looking at familiar issues through a new lens, Liz doesn't disappoint. The chat starts with Stan considering the comings and (many) goings at No.10 and how this would be viewed if it was in a school setting. Liz then considers a ne book she's been reading called 'BIG Leadership: How to lead in a Bold, Inspiring and Gracious way' by Vera Ama Ng'oma. Frank then considers the benefits of a new university course that is based on the music (and lyrics) of Taylor Swift. The chat ends with a consideration of the levelling up paper that was released this week. This one was a good one and worth watching or listening.
This week the gents chat again with Maccs Pescatore, CEO of Montessori Centre International. Maccs was a guest last year and we received many favourable comments on the fresh perspective she brought. This edition is no different. Stan kicks off with a reflection on how fatigued some teachers, including Headteachers appear to be. Maccs then considers the amazing news that scientists have been able to regrow a frogs leg after amputation! Frank then reflects on the valuable work of The Times Education Commission and the importance its lays on digital education for the future. Maccs then explains why the parliamentary debate on Early Years funding was crucial this week and how heartening it was to hear of support from both sides of The Chamber. The chat ends with Frank and Stan considering whether their chat is like a Morecambe and Wise Show, as suggested by Dame Alison Peacock last week. Enjoy.
We are delighted to have Dame Alison Peacock, the CEO of The Chartered College of Teaching as our guest this week. When the chats started in May 2020 we never thought we would have the chance to reflect on some of the important education news of the week with such an eminent guest. Stan kicks off with a 'another non-denial denial' based on the lack of available evidence, then Dame Alison draws attention to the latest Brighouse and Waters book along with explaining her role as CEO and her long commitment to collaboration. Frank then considers the importance of academic research and why it is important for senior leaders to find time to assimilate it. Frank then invites Alison to explain the importance of the Chartered College of Teaching and why it supports a 'nuanced' approach based on reflection and well informed practitioners. The chat ends with Alison suggesting the two gents are a little like Morecambe and Wise. We leave it to the viewers to judge who is Eric? A fantastic chat. Enjoy!
The two gents chat to Adrian Gray, former senior HMI with Ofsted and responsible for policy and development as well as innovation and research. Amazingly, the chat isn't all about garden parties that weren't parties. Stan queries why Ofsted withdraw some guidance for early years providers within 24 hours of its publication. Adrian discusses the challenges of leading a small school, a particular interest he has. Frank then shares an email he received from a follower and former guest about the downgrading of Ofsted judgements for outstanding and good schools. This then leads to Adrian explaining his international research into the history of inspection before considering who determines what is an effective education and who judges it? It's a good un!
This week Frank and Stan reflect on the the events of 2021 and some of the disastrous errors/mistakes that certain government Ministers have made affecting the world of education. They also look back at some of the wonderful guests they have chatted to. The viewing figures have doubled this year and the guests have played a big part in this. We have some fascinating guests lined up for 2022 but if you would like to join us then just drop us a message. Also, if you can recommend a guest and their details we are happy to make contact. Have a great New Year celeb ration and thank you so much for your encouragement and support.
This pre-Christmas edition has Eric Craven, the ex HMI, SEND expert, major Liverpool FC fan and poet join Frank and Stan. The session includes three of Eric's poems as well as the What's caught your eye this week? Stan kicks off with his view on the request for retired teachers to return to the classroom, then Eric considers the crazy situation in America where teachers tried to grab dollar notes thrown onto a pitch. Frank finishes the section considering that only 195 grades were changed out of 5.7m awarded this year for GCSE and A Levels. The chat moves on to insights into some of the difficulties with the Early Career Framework. Eric then reads his brilliant poem 'Pegasus Bridge'. Enjoy.
This week Frank and Stan chat to Lucy Trueman, CEO of Trueman Change. Lucy has developed an interest in organisational change in the public sector including education. She previously worked with Stan and share a similar philosophy on leadership and management but as we find out Lucy taught Stan a few things about surpluses/profit. The chat covers Peppa Pig, shepherds pie, Sky Sports and how the current Dr Who is (not) responsible for driving young men to crime. Lucy explains her interest in how school leaders have managed during the pandemic and the impact on their staff. She emphasises the importance of authenticity and how it has been ok to express leadership vulnerability. Fascinating stuff.
This week Frank and Stan are joined by the founder and CEO of Yipiyap, a tutoring organisation that harnesses the talents of high achieving gap year students and give them the opportunity to support primary and secondary pupils who require extra help in Maths, English and Science. Despite 10 years experience and much success they failed to be accepted onto the National Tutoring Programme. The story is worth hearing. In addition, the guests link trauma with Ofsted, the mixed emotions regarding levelling up, a fabulous DfE visit to Blackpool and the importance of honesty (again). Enjoy.