Series 10: Recent Episodes
Access to Inspiration
Adventure and action are commonplace for this week’s podcast guest, Dailyn Matthews, a stunt woman and adventure photographer. She explains to host, Sue Stockdale about the mindset and degree of preparation required to appear on set ready to be in a fight scene, car chase or plunge headfirst into a tank of water wearing a strait jacket.
Going to extremes is also the unique flavour in Dailyn’s other career as an adventure photographer. With a camera in hand since she was 18, Dailyn uses her lens to harness the magic of the wilderness she so adores. The enthusiasm she brings to this medium is the same vibe that powers her career as a stunt performer. After years of being punched, drowned, shot at, and surviving falls and thrilling car manoeuvres, she’s now infusing adventure photography with a splash of that bold femininity.
Find out more about Dailyn Matthews via website | Instagram | Facebook | Stunt website
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes ‘As a youngster I was pretty much the tomboy doing all kinds of crazy things’
‘The goal to being a stunt person is that the action's supposed to be seen, but the actor gets all the credit’
‘Once I've over analyzed everything there’s a switch that goes off. And as soon as they call action, I throw myself over the balcony and whatever happens, happens’
‘I show up to set and a lot of times I don't even know what they have in store for me’
‘The whole goal in being a stunt performer is safety first’
I got to get in this beautiful, bright blue car and spin it all over the LA river. And I had a camera car chasing me, and I thought is this really my life - it was for a Rolling Stones video’.
‘I've met some incredible people, but it's the people that are kind that really make a difference. Clint Eastwood, he's a remarkable director, but he's also a remarkable human and he treats his crew with such respect and kindness’.
‘We are becoming so disconnected that we've forgotten how to be kind to one another’
‘The world of photography is another male dominated career’
‘I've been studying humans since I started as an actor’
‘There's nothing better than having the whole crew clap after you've been beaten to a pulp’
‘I'm not afraid of failing or learning’
Dailyn Matthews Transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to the access to inspiration podcast show where you can be inspired by people who may be unlike you. We hope that their unique experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and to make you think. Well, we've got a fantastic final episode for this series. And today's guest is Dailyn Matthews, who is a Hollywood stunt woman. So maybe when you've been watching TV, dramas, films or commercials, and there's been a car chase or zombies or a fight. It's likely that you may already have seen Dailyn but didn't realize it, going to extremes is a unique flavor in her work. And it sparked her in her an intense craving for epic adventure, because she's also an adventure photographer. There's gonna be loads to speak to her about. Welcome to the podcast, Dailyn it's great to speak to you today.
[00:01:11] Dailyn: Thank you so much, Sue. How are you today?
[00:01:14] Sue: I'm great. I'm really interested in your career dealing because there are two parts to it that I think are really probably a young person's dream stunt performer and adventure photographer. I mean, you couldn't really get better than that. Could you was that what you wanted to be when you were young?
[00:01:32] Dailyn: No, and it's really hilarious actually, because whenever I meet somebody and they find out that I'm a stunt woman, they always respond. I always wanted to be a stunt performer. And I'm like, am I the only one in the world that didn't want to be? And so when I look at my childhood, I feel like I must have been training for it because I was pretty much the tomboy doing all kinds of crazy things, you know, making my parents crazy, but I've always been in the entertainment business. I started as an actor. And I worked behind the scenes for many years, doing production managing.
And then I had been married and I had a small child. I had a daughter and it was a bad marriage that I had to get out of. And I had to figure out a way to raise my child on my own. And I hadn't been working for a while cos I was taking care of her. And so when I left, it was what I call life free assessment time where you kind of sit down and you say, okay.
And for me where that starts, and I feel like most of us have been in those crossroads in our lives. And I think for me, the first question I ask is what is it that I love. and looking at my life, I love this crazy business, even though it is really kind of bonkers , but it's where I feel most alive. and I'm very athletic and I do have the right amount of crazy in me.
So I just kind of unfolded that way. And [00:03:00] I was working on in a gymnastics jam with a bunch of up and coming stunt guys. And so that's where it started. I was like, huh, what is this business about? And maybe I could do this. And so it's kind of where I started before I went into like diving into trying to chase a job stunt job.
I went and worked on a cattle ranch to learn how to ride horses. I did a driving course I went back to doing gymnastics again. And so I kind of approached things in a very linear fashion. So it's like, if I'm gonna show up, I wanna make sure that I'm ready for the job that they're gonna throw at me. So, yeah. So it's been 22 years, 22 years, I've been doing this crazy thing and I still love it.
[00:03:45] Sue: It might be helpful to give our listener an idea, the sort of shows that you appear in and the sort of stunts that you do, what were the ones that are most relevant that come to your mind?
[00:03:55] Dailyn: Well, because I had my young daughter and I had chosen to like, be around to raise her instead of pay somebody to raise her. I was living in LA at the time. And so I ended up doing a lot of TV because a lot of the movies were cross the pond, as they say, right. So they're in Europe and I would be gone for an extended period. And so I always say that I've doubled a ton of women that you do not know, but it's a long line of women. I'm a, a tall blonde and I'm slender. And so I tend to look like a lot of those women. So I have a lot of TV in my experience. I've done some films have also done commercials and music videos. So I kind of run the gamut. I have not had the good fortune of doubling one particular actress. We're only now seeing these action stars that are female, but for the longest time, you know, at the beginning of my career, there really weren't action females and still it's 20 jobs for men to one of the women. So I could be the only woman in the stunt team and because there's soldiers and policemen, and there's still very male dominated spots that are filled by men. It's a lot easier for men. There's a lot more opportunities, but we're seeing a change in. So we have the wonder woman and the captain Marvel and yay. , you know, black widow. So we have some action stars that are females. So a lot of the stuff that I've done. you've seen me, but not really. that's the whole goal to being a stunt person is that the action's supposed to be seen, but the actor gets all the credit
[00:05:37] Sue: yeah. I looked at your showreel on YouTube and I saw you getting crashed into and having fights and getting shot at and so on. So it is all action stuff.
[00:05:46] Dailyn: My nephew, I had sent out a, a postcard one time about a show that I was on. And, and it was a fight scene between the two of us two women. And I said, you know, who do you think will win? And my nephew said, well, seeing [00:06:00] that you're the one that always dies, mom, my that's on the other woman. so yes, I have died a million lives.
[00:06:09] Sue: Obviously in those scenes, they have to look realistic. And I imagine there's a huge amount of preparation. And as I was just saying to you earlier, Dylan, we're recording this early morning, UK time. So I got up even earlier to do a workout first so that my brain is awake and we can have a more productive conversation. I always think I like to be alert. That was my preparation for this conversation. What's the sort of preparation that you have to put in before doing a stunt?
[00:06:35] Dailyn: Well, it's funny cuz I did the same thing. I went for a bike ride even though it's evening here I went for a bike ride just so my brain would be on point today. so yeah, I say that I'm a technical athlete and it it's the same for I approach things. Even though I have kind of a morbid sensibility because of the career that I have. So when I approach a stunt I basically break it down and I break it down in all the ways it can go wrong. So if I'm jumping off some balcony or something onto the concrete, it's like, okay, I could fall put my head open. I could break a leg. I could get hung up on the railing. There's something inside me. I don't know if it's like a little bit of crazy, a little bit of the risk taker in me that once I've over analyzed everything. There's a switch that goes off. And so as soon as they call action, H myself over the balcony. whatever happens happens. People ask me often, or they'll make a reference. They'll say that, oh, you're in shape because you're a stunt woman. It's like, no, I'm in shape for many different reasons, but it's not because of my career.
I definitely prep and I'm athletic. And I keep myself strong because at this point in my career, this is the people that call me for jobs. Stunt coordinators that call me for jobs. They know what my skillset is. and they'll just say, Hey, are you available next week? And it's a great compliment because they believe in me and they believe that I can do whatever situation they're gonna throw me in and they're sometimes it's like, wait, what? Okay. I signed up for this. So it's a good pride, whatever it is, it's usually a good ride.
[00:08:19] Sue: I'm just imagining there, the sort of the job advert you can think about a, a recruiter is advertising for somebody with good telephone voice or good organizational skills. Is it about here? We need somebody who's gonna get shot at or drive in a car chase. What , what are the sort of ways or how. A stunt performer activity advertised.
[00:08:42] Dailyn: Yeah. So let me back up a little bit. So the stunt coordinator is the one who hires us and it is definitely industry that can be very nepotistic. It really who, you know, that gets you the job. And so it's your job as a stunt performer to go make yourself [00:09:00] known. And in this day and age of. Accessibility on our phones to make some sort of little video or demo reel for some it's a little easier than when I started, where we used to like have covert operations where we like sneak onto sets, just so we can meet these people and prove to them that we were capable of whatevers.
They were looking for, we used to have hardbound books that would be produced with headshot, with their detached and stuff like that. So similar to an actor, but it's really about kind of establishing a reputation and, and along with that reputation, you have to show up and do the job and do it well. That's how you end up getting another job and another job and another job. It's really about having good etiquette on set, being somebody fun to hang out with because there's lots of downtime in between setups. So if you can tell a good story, keep everybody laughing and do your job. It makes you more hireable for sure.
[00:10:01] Sue: So in terms of those experiences that you've had Dailyn have any of them not gone as planned or what are some of those moments that are highlights in your mind of things? You'd probably rather forget?
[00:10:13] Dailyn: Oh, well, fortunately for me, I have not had any like real serious injuries, you know, that certainly happens. There's a, a gal in the UK who's an extraordinary woman. Her name is Olivia Jackson. She continues to be talented, but she was in a horrific accident on Resident Evil, doubling Milla Jovovich and she ended up having her arm amputated and she's had so many injuries that have been, it was terrible. So that certainly happens, but we do whatever we can.
The whole goal in being a stunt performer is a safety first. So you can do it take after, take after take. And sometimes it's not just. In Olivia's case it was a camera car. And so it's not always the stunt performer that makes a mistake, but there's a lot of moving parts on a set and you just hope that everybody's doing their job properly and everything's been discussed. So everybody is on the same page. So there aren't any mistakes that cost somebody their life or their wellbeing, I guess. The one, one that comes to mind was I was doing a television show and I was working with a live performer by the name of Chriss Angel. He's an illusionist. I don't know if you've ever heard of him.
He was the mind bender I think that mind freak, I think is his name. So he was TV show and he was playing my son, I was playing his foster mother and he tracked me down and was torturing me. And he had put me hanging by my ankles in the Houdini water tank. So I was literally hung by my ankles. I had a straight jacket on a real straight jacket. I had chains around my neck that [00:12:00] were connected to my ankles and I had duct tape over my mouth. So we had some special things to make sure that I stayed safe, but there, the chains that were on me were plastic and every time I'd go into the tank, they would float. So of course, that doesn't look real. So we're gonna get out the real chains and actually use a real padlock. And Chriss came up to me and he starts wrapping me in these chains and he looks at me and he goes, don't worry, I've gotten outta this before. And I'm like, you're a magician. Okay. I'm a stunt performer.
No. And all I could do is look straight across the set at my safety guy. And I was. You better have me because this could end very badly. And yeah, it was a pretty hard core then that I, like my daughter was young at the time and I kind of told her goodbye before I left for work that day. Cuz you just never know.
I know it sounds very morbid, but just never know. Just never know. So, but it's about trusting your team and making sure that you're well informed. And like I said, The whole goal is to be able to do it again and again, and, oh my goodness. Did I do it again and again and again, all day long on that one, but it made for some really good viewing on the TV screen.
For sure. I do wanna brag about one. That was one of my favorites because it was one of those moments in my life where I was like, pinch me. I can't believe this is my life. I was doing a music video. I was driving a 68 vintage Mustang. And I was doubling Kristen Stewart and I was driving in what we call the LA river. And it's an aqueduct basically, but it's iconic in movies where they've had the Fast and Furious and Grease and all these car chases down there. And I got to get in this beautiful, bright blue car and spin it all over the LA river. And I had a camera car chasing me, and I literally was like, Is this my life is this really my life, but it was for a Rolling Stones video. Oh, so how fabulous is that? I know so I found a few moments like that, where it's like, It's pretty awesome. I'm actually getting paid for this. The other side of that is working as a zombie on the walking dead and, you know, two hours of prosthetics and laying in some murky water face down, crawling on my stomach, you know, under a subway train. And then you go, huh? My glamorous life. Yeah.
[00:14:43] Sue: Well, it sounds like you got a lot of wonderful memories there. Daylin, does that inspire your daughter, having her, experiencing that job that you have? Does that inspire her to be a stunt performer?
[00:14:54] Dailyn: No, thankfully she's in the corporate world. and she's really happy. Yeah, actually, [00:15:00] it was interesting how, you know, I'm kind of a tough cookie and single mom to this little girl and whenever she would cry, I'd be like, really. Are you bleeding? What's going on? You know, I always, honestly, I thought the children were fearless. And then I had a child that wasn't, that was a little more timid and it was a really great lesson for me, but she really came into her own. And I think like in high school, all her friends thought I was the bomb, but she was like, Ugh. You know, it's my mom, really? And I had like an old, old police car and I'd load up all her friends and we'd go screeching around the corners, you know? And she'd be, I'd look over at her and she's rolling her eyes at me and her friends were in the back seat squealing. I was like, come on, do you think of cool? So she ran off to university and then the best part of it is that it's not her growing up, but kind of being out from underneath my shadow. And I know that I'm a very strong personality and I think it was tough for her to kind of find her own.
And now she is just a radiating light and she's such a remarkable human and she had a tough time not having her dad around and. She is, she's one of my favorite humans now, and she's grown up and successful and I'm so proud of her. And so somewhere in there that toughness came through, it just came out in a different package and it's awesome.
[00:16:33] Sue: Oh, wonderful. I'm sure that you're a great inspiration to her. And speaking of inspiration, given that is the title of our podcast. I'm wondering who or what inspires you.
[00:16:44] Dailyn: So a simple answer to that is people who are kind. I in my travels and just this remarkable career that I have, the one that we're speaking of the stunt career, I meet a lot of people that are high profiled that are somewhat worshiped by the general public. And they're just regular people. To me, there's been very few people where I am really wowed by them where it's like, wow, this is, I can't believe I'm meeting this person. And I've met some really incredible people, but it's the people that are kind that really make a difference. The people that Clint Eastwood, he's a remarkable director, but he's also a remarkable human and he treats his crew with such respect and kind.
To me, that's where I get, you know, my inspiration. As far as my Hollywood career, as an adventure photographer, I have a mentor who's a remarkable photographer, but again, inspired just almost feels like it's not enough of a word. You know, he. He is such a motivating force in my life. And he is a family man. He's not only a crazy, a adventurer. He pushes himself way beyond [00:18:00] limits, but he always has time to mentor me or answer the silliest of questions. And that has such an impact on me. The people that take the time, I think. Something that we, the way that humanity has been shaped by technology devices, we're, you know, becoming so disconnected that we've forgotten how to be kind to one another. And so when I find that, I don't know, it's just, it's something that makes my heart swell.
[00:18:30] Sue: Mm. It is a, a magical quality that we all have and can offer to other people as well. And it's a nice segue then into your other career that you have as an adventure photographer. What does that involve?
[00:18:45] Dailyn: Well, again, it was kind of the impetus for chasing this other career. First of all, you can only fall down for so long , although I'm determined to. You know, if Betty White was still around, I'd be doubling her, you know, in my later years, I don't wanna give up on my stunts, but I definitely. It's smart in a freelance career to always have more than one iron in the fire.
And I have been passionate about photography for my whole life. I was a little concerned about if I ever made it into a profession where I had to ask people to pay me that I may lose my passion for it, but what's really remarkable as I build this new business is that my passion is just getting stronger and stronger, which is super exciting for. The world of photography is again, another male dominated career. way to go Daylan it's 80% of professional photographers are men. So the 20% that's out there are mostly, the women are shooting portraits and weddings. So the adventure photography, you know, realm for women is, is pretty untapped. You know, again, kind of that life reassessment time.
Like, what do I love to do? You know, what more can I do with my life? My daughter's grown the next chapter of my life. If you will. I love traveling and I love seeing the world and I love meeting people and hearing their stories in the last couple years, as I've started to develop and hone my mission for this business, I've come to narrow it down to going after outdoor gear brands, the likes of a Patagonia or, you know, Acteryx type of brands that go to the extremes. because that's where I thrive. so, so like, Hey, can you hire me to go to the Himalayas and shoot your product?
[00:20:43] Sue: and given that there are similarities between both activities, having an element of extreme within them, what are some of the other qualities or characteristics that it brings out of you, do you think in terms of the [00:21:00] photography and the stunt performing? One thing that I Springs to my mind immediately is attention to detail. I'm wondering if there are other things as well.
[00:21:09] Dailyn: Yeah. One of the things as a stunt performer, as a stunt double, I have to study, I have to watch my actor and I have to replicate what it is that they do. It's fascinating how like careers can meld together. And so you're right. So I've been studying humans, like since I started as an actor because human behavior between humans and then now I'm studying what the humans are doing so I can replicate. then put a lens between my eyeball and the rest of the world. And it's bringing it down to, like you said, that very fine detail.
And as far as like adventuring, I think that my stunt brain has, I don't know how to say this. So the way I approach things, I guess the fear kind of gets put on the back burner. And I just look at the task at hand. So if I have to. Sail to the Antarctica on a Zodiac. It's like, okay, how do I keep myself warm comfort safety? Like, am I tied into the boat? So I don't fall out. So it's funny how all that just crosses over. It's been quite the blessing. And I think it gives me a bit of an advantage to some people that aren't used to doing that
[00:22:22] Sue: I can get that sense. And as I was listening to you there, Dailyn I was thinking about. What's going on within you when you are doing both of those activities. You've told us about the preparation you've told us about the observation of what you're noticing in order to replicate. I'm wondering, what are you aware of within yourself? Is it your heart rate or how you're feeling your senses?
[00:22:51] Dailyn: Well, fears there. Fear is there I, I remember meeting someone who I admired quite a bit in my career, who she's an incredible driver. She's one of the, the most accomplished drivers as a female in our industry. And I remember asking her something about a similar question, like right before they say action. She's. Oh, I am shaking in my boots. Are you kidding me? I'm scared. I'm like, wait, you get scared. After all these years of doing this, you actually get scared. So yes, that's the part of me where I say that I, I feel most alive because it is that adrenaline junkie in me that it is that heightened awareness, a stunt coordinator he puts me in this like crazy spot. And then it's right before they're about to yell action. He walks up to me and just goes, don't screw it. And then walks away and you're like, wait, what? And it's, it's kinda funny because it almost takes you out of that moment of being too prepared. Right. So it's like, okay, I'm present now.
Holy crap. What's going on? Like I [00:24:00] said, too, there is a switch that goes off in me cuz I think that there's a lot of the preparation, but definitely the unknown of what's gonna happen or being in a situation where you just go. Doesn't look like it's gonna go well, , you know, oh God, what's gonna happen. And you're saying prayers and all that stuff.
But as far as like working as a photographer, I think that fears almost a little different. Cause it's it. Well, maybe not. It's. Performing, I guess I have to perform for a client. So I have to deliver a product. And it's almost the same as being on set and performing and making sure you give them, you know, there's nothing better than having the whole crew clap after you've been beaten to a pulp or something.
You're like, oh good. They liked it. Maybe I don't have to do it again. so, so it's in the same. I love being in the mountains. I love being in the snow. Somebody told me I have the life source of a, you know, 20 year old. So I get giddy when I am chasing my passions. I am giddy. You can tell that I have, I'm a pretty high energy person. and I do like to laugh. I try to keep that energy up when I'm on set as a stunt performer, but as a photographer as well, if I'm the one in charge, I'm the one that has to rally the troops and keep that energy. So it's a different kind of pressure though.
[00:25:21] Sue: It's interesting. I was watching a video that of Dewitt Jones. Who's a photographer as well. And he was doing spread for national geographic and he'd been sent somewhere and he described pressure he was feeling about not getting the shot and then just listening to his intuition and looking up at a particular moment and taking this photograph through the trees above him, which is the most sold postcard I think that national geographic I've ever have. And what struck me about his experience was that using his intuition and just trusting, listening to himself. I was wondering whether you had a similar feeling.
[00:25:58] Dailyn: Yeah, I think for me, I can't speak for everybody else, but for me it is doing that foundational work and then flipping the switch and just trusting that, you know, what you're doing. My photography is still in the infancy stage. As far as I'm concerned, I'm still working and I'm still learning, but I push myself outside my comfort zone a lot because I feel like that's the best way to learn. And I fail. And that's how you learn too. I'm not afraid of failing or learning. So I'm always seeking out more wisdom. I have the curiosity of a three year old, so I always am asking questions. I'm always trying to figure something out. I'm always wanting more. And I think that helps as well. I think as far as the adventure photographer, why it appeals to me doing that kind of photography is that it is it's always so stimulating. It's always a different environment. If you're dealing with extreme. You're gonna have a different experience every time, cuz weather is unpredictable and I love that. I [00:27:00] love, I love obviously I love a good challenge. That's pretty clear.
[00:27:05] Sue: well, you're speaking to somebody here who also loves the unknown from my own adventure experience. So I am absolutely with you when you're talking about that unknown and unpredictability, that's certainly very motivating. If our listener was thinking about how they might step out their comfort zone, how they might take a few more risks. What would your advice to them be?
[00:27:28] Dailyn: Oh my goodness. I was living in Georgia for a while and I had young gentleman that worked at the post office and he told me he's never seen a mountain. And I was like, what do you mean? You never he's like, I've never been on a mountain. So every time, like I would go away for a couple of days or whatever, I'd come back with pictures and I'd go look, Tony, I found this mountain. It's only two hours away. You'd just get in your car and drive somewhere, go experience it. So just go outside. So sometimes it's just a car ride away and some people aren't able to do certain things because financially they may not be able to, or physically they may not be able to, but you don't really have to look that far.
To just take a chance, you know, start small, just go for a walk. And then the next day go for a little farther and go a little farther. And then one day just drive down the road and turn down a road and see what's down there. That's how it starts. I'm so grateful for my Instagram followers, you know, because they say the most beautiful things to me, how I've inspired them or they're living vicariously. And to me, it's like, that's awesome that I can give you little pieces of the world that may make you salivate and encourage you to go see it. So that's a huge goal in my photography is to show the world, to other people, showing things that they may not be able to go see, but also just that inspiration. I was told once that I have a superpower and that people love to tell me their stories.
It's actually quite funny because it happens all the time that I can just stop at petrol station or something. And the guy next to me, he starts telling me he went on this adventure and he met a mountain goat and it was like, I'm just filling my car right now. but I love it. So whatever that superpower is, if I come in contact with somebody and they wanna tell me my, their story, I can't wait to hear it. And those are the things that I find inspiration in. I think we all have incredible stories. I love that have given people a platform to share those stories. I think that's remarkable. So thank you.
[00:29:49] Sue: Well, we are so happy that you've come onto the podcast to share your stories with us today. Dailyn I get that sense of energy. I get that sense of love of nature that [00:30:00] you've expressed in how you've described the outdoors and what you've been doing. So I'm sure this conversation is gonna be inspiring for some of our listeners. And if they do want to follow up with you and tell you their stories, How might they do that on the internet or social media?
[00:30:14] Dailyn: Well, I have my website for my photography is Daylin matthews.com. So that's very easy. I have a stunt website it's trouble on wheels.com so if you wanna look at some of that stuff, Instagram is Daylin dot Matthews and Facebook is Daylin Matthews studio. So it's fairly easy to find me.
[00:30:38] Sue: Well, that's brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today. It was well worth me getting up early and doing that bike ride so that I could be energized for this conversation. I've loved it. Thank you so much.
[00:30:48] Dailyn: Thank you so much. This is so much fun. Go enjoy your day. I'm gonna go, go to sleep now. thank you so much for having me. It's been a delight.
[00:30:59] Sue: Well, that was a fantastic conversation. I really enjoyed it and remember you can subscribe to our podcast on apple podcasts and any other platforms that you listen to us on, and you can connect with us on social media, on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, just search for access to inspiration. We'll be back again in a few weeks time with another series of inspiring guests. And I hope we can connect again together.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him) Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale talks to Manny L, a health food entrepreneur, senior leader at a Fortune 500 company and an advisory board member of a process improvement think tank. Manny explains how uses his corporate knowledge of technology and efficiency in the health food start-up, Heavens Pantry he runs with two friends.
Manny L is a master of time management, balancing a demanding corporate career with a startup. A passionate changemaker, developer of talent, and leader - his passion is leveraging technology and processes to make society a better place.
Find out more: Website | Instagram | Facebook | Amazon
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Manny L Transcription Sue: [00:00:00] Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to the access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can be inspired by people who may be unlike you. We hope their experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives of the world and to make you think. Thanks very much for the positive comments that you've been sharing with us about all the episodes that you've been enjoying in the series. We do love to hear from you. So keep letting us know what your favorite episodes are. Well, my guest today is Manny L. He is a health food entrepreneur, a senior leader at a fortune 500 company and an advisory board member of a process improvement think tank. Manny talks to me about how he uses his corporate knowledge of technology and efficiency in the health, food startup, Heavens Pantry that he runs with his two friends. Welcome to the podcast. Manny, it's great to speak to you
Manny: today. It's absolutely, great to speak to you as well.
Sue: Manny, I know you describe yourself as a health food entrepreneur, and you're also a senior leader in a fortune 500 company. Do you ever sleep?
Manny: I actually think sleep is very important. I got eight hours of sleep last night, and I think sleep is absolutely imperative for high function as an entrepreneur and also a corporate leader as well. Early on my career, I had this mindset that I had to grind everything out. And as I progressed, as I got further, I realized that we all have the same amount of hours every day. And it's not about how hard you can work and don't get me wrong. I definitely work very hard. This is not an excuse to slack off. What I'm saying is that out of your limited hours that you have every day, I have learned over time to be hyper efficient. And I think efficiency is name of the game. Cultures where you're measured based on how many hours you're on the clock are absolutely toxic. That's not the kind of culture that I try to promote.
I think a culture where you're measured based on the results and the impact that you achieve is a much healthier culture. And I view my job both in corporate America, that world of entrepreneurship as well. I view both my jobs as making a series of correct high impact decisions that allow me to do more with less. And I am all about doing more and less.
Sue: Well, that's good. And I'm glad you're not bleary eyed in our conversation today. Manny, you're looking quite chipper there, which is fantastic. And we will get into more about that efficiency mindset that you described there. I do want to start off though, with this startup, heavens pantry that you launched with some friends, because giving birth to any new idea is such an exciting time. And it's always really fascinating to get the backstory behind that, into how that idea came into being, how [00:03:00] did heaven's pantry begin?
Manny: So heaven's pantry started off with three friends, including myself and the formulation of the recipe was very interesting. I used to work at a top four consulting firm and I will say one thing that working at the firm has taught me was how to manage my time really well, and also how to survive and thrive in high pressure environment. So it was simply a pressure cooker kind of environment that wasn't for that kind of environment heaven's pantry probably would not have been born. So one of the perks of the job was that you would get free coffee.
I'm a huge coffee connosieur and I discovered nitro cold brew because during the busy seasons, they would give us free coffee being the most junior guy on the team, I always volunteered to make the coffee runs. And one of my supervisors told me, Hey, you are the first guy ever, who does not complain about being made to do coffee runs. And I told her, let me tell you something. This coffee run allows me to get out of the office, breathe some fresh air. I'm the only guy on the team who's actually getting fresh air right now. Why would I be complaining about that? No, if anything, I should be thanking you for the opportunity to, to get outta the office.
So I would have one of those in the mornings. I was waking up like seven or eight o'clock and by the time I got to my client, it was like nine. And by the time I got home, it was probably around 12 o'clock. So I wouldn't see daylight during like the, during the peak seasons, but because the caffeine content in nitro cold brew was so high, I would take one the morning I would get really, really amped up.
Now the problem with caffeine is that caffeine is not sustainable energy. Caffeine leads to a crash midday. So I will have a coffee. Half of my day goes by, I will have another coffee. And then by the time I got home, I was struggling to go to sleep. I realized that this is not healthy. Something had to be done.
So we came up with the formulation of the chocolate Excalibar. The chocolate Excalibar contains six natural ingredients. So they consist of almonds, cashews dates, cocoa powder, coconut oil and sea salts. All high quality ingredients meant to give you a sustainable sort of energy that doesn't lead to that dreaded midday crash.
After I switched over from a excessive caffeine consumption to exscalibar consumption, I was able to power my way through the day without actually crashing. And this actually goes back. The kinds of foods that my parents would feed me when I was younger. When I was a little kid, academics were stressed very, very heavily in my household. And I really thank my parents for instilling the work ethic that I had today. I have very reasonable parents, too. My parents always told me to do [00:06:00]whatever you want with your life. Just make sure you get what you're supposed to do done first before you do the stuff that you want to do. And that has always, always stuck with me.
My, before I started my homework, my parents would make me a bowl with fruits and nuts. And I was supposed to finish that bowl before I, I did my homework and I asked my parents, Hey, what's the whole point of that? When I was like a little bit older and then said, oh, it's actually because of the nutritional value of the nuts, the nuts provide cognitive enhancing capabilities and the fruits keep you energized. So that's also why fruits and nuts.
Sue: So there you were drinking a lot of coffee, having those crashes in the day when you need to have sustainable energy. And I can imagine many people might be complaining to their friends of a similar reality. And they do nothing about it. They don't take the action to set up a business. So I think what wasn't it was Justin and Rob, your friends, you went from needing to find that sustainable energy to actually doing something about it. So what made the three of you believe that it could become a business?
Manny: So I have always been a very, very entrepreneurial person during my early twenties. I actually led another startup that did not exactly succeed, but that gave me the battle scars necessary to get my foot in the door. And the reason why we believed that we could make this reality is because I did also have prior managerial experience running a failed startup. I've also naturally been a numbers guy for pretty much since I started my career, I had this gift where I'm have the ability to connect with people and have the ability to connect with numbers as well. My friend Rob is very highly organized. I certainly am not the most organized person, but Rob is a very orderly, very procedure based person. My friend Justin is also like that too. And I think all three of our personalities we mesh very well and we cover for each other's weaknesses. I have this saying that one man is no man. And I know I'm saying the word, man, but, but I really mean, you know, mankind in general, not one particular gender because entrepreneurship doesn't care about your gender. It actually cares more about your capabilities and your ideas. So we cover for each other's weaknesses very well. And that's why I think this business definitely had legs to stand on.
Sue: So there you were the three of you seeing that you've got differing strengths that you can bring together to combine into potentially a successful startup. And you've got a responsible job in corporate America as well. Manny, where you able to bring any of your experience and knowledge and insights from corporate America into scaling up your business?
Manny: Ah, I definitely think that my experience in corporate America. Absolutely critical for scaling of my business. After my stint in consulting, I switched to the consumer and package goods industry, and I learned process automation. I learned process redesign, [00:09:00] and I also became an expert on a series of tools called robotic process automation, which is a tool that imitates what a human worker is capable of doing. So we have a term called a digital worker.
A digital worker is what we program to perform the kind of work that a human worker would be doing. And today my current company, I advise senior executives how to implement robotic process automation and what these tools are capable of and how to generate ROI on robotic process automation. And I'm certainly generating ROI with robotic process automation for my personal business as well. And the whole concept of the digital worker. I love that concept. I'm a lean startup. We're just three normal guys. We don't have a multimillion dollar budget to hire tons and tons of workers. So we got a little bit creative and I've always been the crazy mad scientist in our group of three. Well, my other two partners keep me grounded in reality.
I've always been the crazy mad scientists brainstorming new ideas implementing them. And coming up with solutions to whatever problems and curve balls that, that are thrown our way. So we were definitely constrained by budget and instead of hiring physical workers, I realized, Hey, the same way that in my job in corporate America, People are using digital workers to augment the capabilities of, of certain departments when they're running low on capacity, when they have certain deadlines to hit and they don't have time to hire a new wave of people, a light bulb went on my head and I was like, wait, why do I build and train these digital workers?
And then I wrote some scripts that can go onto certain websites and actually pull potential customer leads onto a spreadsheet. And these leads we then call up one by one. We pitch them our product. The reason why I think this digital worker was so game changing is because in the past we just call up whatever leads we found.
This digital worker actually allows us to segment each lead by industry and keyword. I know that people hate getting their time wasted by sales people who pitch it, irrelevant product. And I think that's good. Sales needs to be a win-win situation, a bad salesman, shoves a product down your face that you're not interested in a good salesperson screens to make sure there's a potential that you might be solving a business need.
Number one, and the number two, a good salesperson. Educates the customer on the value of the product and lets them make the decision instead of pushing them to make a decision. That's how I do sales and that's how my digital worker is able to help me better target relevant leads. So it's really useful.
Sue: I can see you've got additional employees in your business because you're using the digital capability to augment the three of you. There you are with your six ingredients. How does it that get transformed into these exscalibars and then get packaged and shipped out to your customers? Because there's that kind of productivity element that you've not mentioned [00:12:00] yet.
Manny: I like to think of the Excalibar as a brownie in a wrapper. That's how we market it. And it's absolutely true because it tastes absolutely like a brownie. So. That's our main marketing angle, the wholesome guilt-free brownie as to how we actually manufacture and how we ship it to our customers. Back in the day when I was still working and consulting, these bars were cut up by hand. It was in, it was made in Rob's kitchen and it was a very mom and pop operation. Our commercial kitchen actually closed down. Partially due to COVID partially because they were facing financial issues that forced us to just grow up really, really fast. And then we eventually rented out a manufacturing facility and we started pressing bars in higher quantities.
So that really forced us to adapt really, really quickly. And I think that the manufacturing facility worked out in the long run because it allowed us for more professional packaging. We always designed our packaging to retain the small time feel that we always had when we were coming up. So that's how the production works.
We rent out a factory and we actually store the inventory at a Amazon warehouse. And because we have three partners in three different geographical locations, we actually split up our inventory and we placed it in each person's residence. And that makes it a lot easier for us to fulfill orders. So I own the Southeast region. My partner Rob owns the Northeast region. And my partner Justin owns the west coast region. He based in California, having three partners makes this game a whole lot easier.
Sue: And if you're enjoying this episode, you may also like to try out episode 14. Amelia Lin was our guest then and her parents were also keen on education and it led her to launching a startup as. Or you can go to episode 28. Vinay Chandra talks also about the relentless optimism of the entrepreneur. Don't forget. We have over 70 episodes in our back catalog and you can listen to them all at accesstoinspiration.org. The sense I got when I first connected with you, Manny, was that it was about making a difference as well as making money.
Manny: It absolutely is.
Sue: And that's what we are all about with access to inspiration is helping listeners to get a connection to somebody's bigger purpose very often. So what is that bigger purpose in addition to satisfying somebody's hunger needs during the day?
Manny: That is the question that I've been dying to answer for this whole time. I've been told by many people that you have a good career. Why do you spend so much time on something that may or may not work out? The first thing I tell them is it is not about the money. If I cared about money only, I'd just spend more time in my corporate job, which I also really, really enjoy. I'd spend more time in my corporate job, less time on this. That would probably be more profitable. But no I'm doing this [00:15:00] because I care about providing healthy, high quality food to busy people all across the world. There's actually a huge economic cost on obesity, obesity costs there society, billions of dollars every year in terms of medical costs, lost productivity. Decreased of happiness and, you know, it's really hard to put a price in happiness. I think happiness is almost priceless, but economists like to put a dollar value on everything. And let's just say that loss of happiness, they're very, very big economic value tacked onto that. So. I see that a lot of busy professionals because they're crunched for time, they make unhealthy lifestyle choices, and I am providing the foods that allow people to nourish and sustain themselves at a pretty reasonable price.
Number one, number two, I wanna make healthy food, more accessible to people. If by doing this, I allow just a few people to kick their bad habits and transition to healthier habits that allow 'em to stay productive, stay happier and live a better, longer lifespan that makes me really fulfill the end of the day. And just like how I'm a technology evangelist in my organization, educating senior executives and what cool pieces of tech can do to transform the organizations. I like to consider myself a health, food evangelist as well.
Sue: It's really interesting listening to you speak Manny. I get the sense that efficiency, efficient actions very much are at the heart of what enables you to function effectively. As you say, we all have the same amount of time in the day, and it's what you can do in that time. So I'm wondering. If you can give the listener a sense of how you do manage your day, what are some of the approaches, some of the techniques that you adopt yourself in terms of how you efficiently manage your time in a day?
Manny: I definitely mentioned that I was not the most organized and to this day, I still think my scattered brain nature is actually the source of where my creativity and my ideas come. That part of me, that scattered brain, you know, mad scientist thinking like the people who were, who are saying, Hey, I'm a nut job. I should change that. I never change that. But I was able to tame and control that I dedicate like maybe two hours a day of like, Creative time where I, I let the ideas just run wild and I jot all that down on notepad. And the next day I review it, but running a business actually forced me to grow up really quick.
And let's just say that today I'm a lot more organized in my day to day execution of my tasks. So I am a huge fan of creating systems. Okay. I think systems and processes. Is what makes or break routines and it's what makes or breaks businesses. So every day when I get up, I look at my to-do list in an app called todoist.
And no I'm not getting paid a single dime from them for saying this [00:18:00] todoist has enhanced my productivity, fivefold. That is not an exaggeration. Whenever I have a takeaway, I add that to my todoist queue and then. I prioritize it accordingly. I like to think that 80% of your results come from 20% of your tasks.
We have a lot of tasks that people push on us that really don't add value. And it's your job as an entrepreneur and as a business leader to push back on those tasks, and there's a lot of tasks that are non-value added and don't have to be done. You, you simply say, Hey, I don't think doing this is gonna add any value to the organisation so you push back on it. If it's a task that you think has to be done, but there's other people who can do it better than you and have a competitive advantage, then you actually delegate that task and then you outsource it. And when I rank my priorities, I definitely take that into accounts. Also, the other thing I wanted to point out was. I like to bucket tasks and I like to do them in batches. Like for example, rote repetitive admin work that I can't get out of. I'll I'll dedicate one hour a day to do that. Because if I do everything in batches, I'm a lot more efficient. The human mind is actually notoriously bad at multitasking. So carving out dedicated time for series of tasks. That's also another big secret as well. So those are my tips for making sure I stay productive.
Sue: Well, it's really a useful thing to remind listeners of constructing one's day, according to also the efficiency and where one gets their energy from. So are they a morning person? Are they an evening person given that you have so many activities in your day, Manny? Where are you most productive? Are you a get up early sort of guy that, you know, has got everything done by 9:00 AM? Or are you working till two in the morning? And that's your peak time?
Manny: How about both is both the acceptable answer. because I think it definitely varies. And this is something that you learn through introspection, you know, Despite me coming off as energetic, I'm actually a highly introverted person and I had people at work. Ask me, wait, you're introverted. You seem so extroverted. So passionate, so full of energy. And I always tell them I am full of energy because I. Only pick jobs where I'm passionate about. It's not fair to my employer. It's not fair to my stakeholders and it's not fair to myself. If I take a position that I don't truly believe I'll be able to, to deliver on because I'm a very introspective person and an introverted person as well, I'm able to do the deep self-reflection necessary to identify what times of the day are optimal for me during the morning times, it is the most optimal for me to get the routine repetitive tasks done. So. During the morning I crank out reports. I crank out deliverables during the evening. That's my creative time. The evenings, my creative time. 2:00 AM. Sometimes I wake up at 2:00 AM and I think, oh, I think there's a better way to do this. Jot that down before I go to sleep and sometimes I have trouble going back to sleep because I'm thinking, Hey, how can I best implement it once? 7:00 [00:21:00] AM rolls.
Sue: So even the simple thing like having a notepad by your bed is sounds like it's a useful thing to have.
Manny: Absolutely. And ideas are best written down. People place so much value on just ideas. And I think ideas alone don't really have value. It's being able to capture ideas. It's being able to build that action plan. Everyone has an idea. If you want ideas, read science fiction, everyone wants to build a star, destroy destroyer. Everyone wants inter stellar travel. I want all those things. One day, I want to be the guy who's funding those activities. That's actually my long term goal. Once heaven's pantry is successful, I want to divert capital to progress our society and, and further the scientific knowledge of our species.
But once again the devil is in the details. And the devil is in the execution. You're not special for having these ideas, but you are special if you can implement them. So that's why, whenever I have an idea, such as tweaking a process, automating a task, first thing I do, I write it down. And then when I have spare time in my carved out focus time, I revisit that and I say, Hey, how much value can this idea actually have? Even though you might think of me as a person with great ideas, but for every good idea, I have, I probably have like three bad ideas that I absolutely can't implement and have to cross out
Sue: what I get the sense of in our conversation today. Manny is whilst we started off talking about heaven's pantry and your exscalibar the value I've been taking away from what you've been talking about is how to critically evaluate our creativity and then optimize and become more efficient in how we take ideas forward. And that you've got the combination of both of those things. You've demonstrated us that creative side of yourself, and also the taking that creativity and productizing it, making it more efficient, making sure it actually can be delivered in the longer. If you were looking to give one piece of advice for our listener, who may have their entrepreneurial idea for a venture that they would like to start up, what would be that one piece of advice you would offer to them to take it from an idea and make it happen?
Manny: The first piece of advice I would give them is please do not enter a business because you're in it for the money. If you do something, be for the sole intention of making money. You will not be satisfied. You are going to burn out. You will not have that drive to go the extra mile. The thing about being an entrepreneur is that it's gonna be years and years until you see money. Okay. And then secondly, even in your corporate job as well, obviously you gotta make a living.
Obviously you deserve to be paid fair wages for your work. And I've always been an advocate of people getting paid fair wages for their work but you have to find passion in what you do, because if you don't find passion in what you do, there's someone out there who has passion for your field, and they're going to [00:24:00] just run laps all over you. But don't just find something that you're passionate about because there's lots of things that passionate about that cannot solve a societal need. So number one, find out, Hey, is what I'm passionate about? Is that something that other people. Are interested in, is that an area that can solve problems of everyday ordinary people all across the world. If you're passionate and you can help people doing something, then now you have a winning strategy and only venture you go forward with an idea.
Sue: Brilliant. If people want to find out more about heaven's pantry, how might they be able to do that?
Manny: Absolutely. So you can follow us on our Instagram at heaven's pantry. That's our number one, social media. Our website is heaven's pantry, llc.com. It has a list of our distributors and where you can find the product. You can buy a product in Amazon. And if you're interested, we have a special discount. HP friend 10, it's a lifetime 10% off of all. Orders is actually the same discount code that I give to friends and family. Because if you're listening to the show, we can now be friends.
Sue: brilliant. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Manny, I've really enjoyed speaking to you, learning about your entrepreneurial venture, your wonderful creativity and the passion that you exude in, how you speak about everything. So thank you for your time.
Manny: Thank you. And I look forward to the time our paths cross again.
Sue: Well, I hope you enjoyed listening to Manny and his enthusiasm for his startup venture with his friends. Maybe it gave you some inspiration to focus on a startup of your own. Remember, you can keep connected to us on social media. We on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for access to inspiration. I'll be back again next week with the final guest for this series. And I'll be talking to Daylin Matthews. Who's a Hollywood stunt performer. I hope you can join me then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him) Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale talks to Elena Rossini, an Italian artist, writer and activist who uses creativity to improve representation. Elena describes why she feels compelled to focuses on issues of social justice, media representation, and the empowerment of women and girls.
Her most notable project is the critically acclaimed documentary The Illusionists, about the globalisation of beauty ideals, which Rossini shot in eight countries, across four continents. The film has been featured in Vogue Italy, New York Magazine, NPR, FOX and NBC Baltimore, amongst others.
Rossini is the creator of hundreds of GIFs depicting professional women – which have dominated GIF search results, accruing 1.6 billion views. She is also the creator of the multimedia platform No Country for Young Women, which showcases over 120 interviews with inspiring women representing five continents, seven decades and over two dozen professions.
Most recently, Elena is working on another documentary, The Realists - about the dark side of Big Tech.
She lives in Paris, France with her husband and daughter. Find out more about Elena Rossini via website or Twitter
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes 'The common thread throughout all my projects is using creativity for social good.
'The educational version of my film The Illusionists came out in 2015, and my distributor tell me that it's been a top seller every single quarter since then.'
'Women write to me and say how the film has impacted them and how now they see advertising in a completely different way ever since watching it.'
'Curiosity is one of the most important things that any creative could have.'
'I try to hone observation and curiosity and to live as much as I can in the real world, away from screens and away from algorithmic recommendations.'
'I've always made it a point every day to find something new that gives me a sense of wonder and awe.'
'The biggest illusion in our culture today is that you have to share as much as you can in order to be successful, to be liked, to be popular, to be lovable.'
'I want to show people examples of individuals that are using technology in a mindful way, but they're not being used by it.'
'When you look up 'cinematographer' all the animated GIFs of cinematographers, their mine and they're all women.'
'I love that film and photography can almost act like time machines, they can crystallize a moment.'
'I don't think that there are many visible examples out there to be a working female artist who's a mother.'
'I think it's incredibly powerful and cathartic to turn frustrations into opportunities for creativity.' Elena Rossini Transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hello, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to the access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can be inspired by people who may be unlike. We hope their experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and make you think. My guest today is Elena Rossini, an Italian artist, writer, and activist who uses creativity to improve representation. Her most notable project is the critically acclaimed documentary the Illusionists about the globalization of beauty ideals, which has been featured in Vogue, Italy, New York magazine and NPR. And perhaps even more interesting is that Elena is a creator of hundreds of GIFs depicting professional women, which have dominated GIF search results, accruing 1.6 billion views. Welcome to the podcast, Elena.
[00:01:10] Elena: It's amazing to speak to you, Sue. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:13] Sue: I'm fascinated to know how you would describe yourself because you are multi talented Elena.
[00:01:18] Elena: So I would describe myself as a filmmaker, a photographer. A blogger and an activist for representation.
[00:01:29] Sue: Wow. Well, that's a very amazing mix of talents to bring together. And maybe I should ask, how do you do that? Do you bring them all together in one kind of activity?
[00:01:39] Elena: Yes. So I have always lots of projects going on at the same time, just because my interests are so varied, but the common thread throughout all my projects is using creativity for social good. So I've always been drawn to photography ever since I was a little girl, and writing. And so with filmmaking, I loved combining the two. So a passion for visuals and a passion for writing and writing. Also, I have to say from the point of view of a woman, who is a feminist and who is really passionate about social justice. So for example, a few years ago, I made a film called The Illusionists that is probably the project that I'm best known for. And at the time, when I knew that I wanted to make a documentary, I began digging up my old textbooks from university, from gender studies classes and the common thread that I would see about a topic that really I was passionate about was this idea that the [00:03:00] world we live in put so many limits on women and so many insecurities, and there are many companies that profit from those insecurities. And I remember looking around that other documentaries that were out there and none had a global perspective. Now I'm Italian, I'm fluent in Italian, English, and French. I have friends all over the world because I'm very fortunate to have gone to school in the United States.
And I'm sitting in touch with people from all over the world. And so I remember thinking I wanna tackle this topic, but from a global perspective, and if I don't do it, who is going to do it because my story is so unique and my passions are so unique. So I almost felt a duty to start working on that.
[00:03:48] Sue: So I love hearing about where that impetus, that catalyst comes from for you to begin your work. How did you make it then happen? Because lots of people have ideas and things they would like to do. Of course, our podcast is about inspiration and we hope inspiration turns into action. How did you act on your ideas?
[00:04:08] Elena: So initially I began to talk about the idea for the film to people that I knew in Paris that were in the TV and film industry. And they told me that France was an incredible country where it was easy to get funding for documentary. If you had a script that was good enough. And if you were talented and I managed to get a producer who was a very well known filmmaker and he kind of took me under his swing and he helped me set up a lot of meetings with TV networks, for funding, and every meeting that I went to, I would hear it's a fantastic idea, but we don't believe you have this in you as a film director. Can we help you find a director for this. The way that they said that, you know, French has masculine, feminine pronouns and all that. So they were actually asking me 'Est-ce que on peut essayer de trouver un realisator' (in French) it's male director. I would be réalisatrice. And I remember being really upset by that, but that was the catalyst for me to think I can do this on my own.
[00:05:23] Sue: So there's something about somebody telling you that you can't or perhaps subtly hinting that, that, that becomes the motivation.
[00:05:29] Elena: Oh, exactly. That was the fire, the fuel for me to really go on and do the project. And I had started a blog in the very early days when I was doing research for the film and the blog got a lot of attention back then. So I already had a community of people that was really invested in the message of the film being that unattainable beauty ideals and how there are many industries that exacerbate [00:06:00] women's fears about their bodies for profit. So I had people from far away places as United States and India and Australia that I've been following the blog for years. And when I decided to do it on my. I did a crowdfunding campaign and I got a lot of support that way.
[00:06:23] Sue: So the journey began way before even the film idea existed by creating a community through a blog.
[00:06:30] Elena: Yes.
[00:06:31] Sue: And that then helped to support you to fund the film.
[00:06:34] Elena: Exactly.
[00:06:35] Sue: And then there's one thing making a film and then there's another thing distributing it and enabling people to see it. How did that work out?
[00:06:43] Elena: Okay. So the film exists in two different versions. So there is a long version an hour and a half that I've been distributing myself, marketing myself, and then there's a shorter version for schools. And I was very lucky because at the time when I was doing the blog and when the blog was creating a little bit of a buzz. I got an email from an educational distributor in the us said that they were interested in watching the film when it was complete. And I sent to them, they loved it. They became my distributor and they had been promoting it for years now.
I mean, the film came out in 2015, the educational version, and they tell me that it's been a top seller every single quarter since 2015, still like in 2022 now. So I'm very lucky that my film got under their radar and that they've been really advocating for it. So, what they would do is they have a catalog that they distribute to hundreds of high schools and universities and nonprofits across United States. And when the film just came out, they put it on the cover and then they would advertise it prominently. And that's how the film became known in the educational circuit, in the US.
[00:08:11] Sue: Wow. It's wonderful. When you find a partner or another business or organization that actually can help you to spread the word and distribute it more widely. It also makes me think Elena, around valuation of success, how do you measure your success?
[00:08:27] Elena: It's a great question. So I've had a lot of serendipitous moments ever since the film was released. So I suppose that my measure of success was it just one anecdote? This must have been two years ago. I got connected to a group of women from the Washington DC area that were in Paris for a conference, and they were doing a lot of work about women's empowerment. So they asked me where to have dinner. I suggested a restaurant, they [00:09:00] invited me and the daughter of one of those women. She was there too. And when I began talking about my work, she said to me, oh, I've seen it in school. And I was really surprised by that. And this is something that has happened over and over again, I guess. I was most surprised to receive a delightful email that I got was from a teenage girl from Kuwait wrote to me to say, my mom went to college with you and I watched your film in school. And my mom told me that she knows you and this happening in Kuwait absolutely blew my mind. So I suppose that's my measure of success. How far and wide the message of the film can spread. Even if it's not on Netflix or Amazon prime.
[00:09:49] Sue: It strikes me. It's the moment to moment human connections.
[00:09:52] Elena: Yes.
[00:09:53] Sue: And the way that you get those messages back, that seem to be impactful and give you a sense of satisfaction.
[00:09:59] Elena: Absolutely. Also, because there's always a personal touch to those messages that I get, where the women write to me. It's often women there are men too, but often women where they say how the film has impacted. And how now they see advertising in a completely different way ever since watching it. So that to me is like the biggest gift, because I remember that I went through possibly six or seven years of daily rejections when I was trying to get funding for the film for TV networks or to get the film, to get important ambassadors for it.
I was always very close to getting something big and then it didn't. And I remember thinking I need to keep going. If this film changes the views of even one person, I know that it's gonna be impactful. And so that kept me going, and I know that it changed the views of definitely more than one person. So I'm very happy about.
[00:11:03] Sue: Well, it sounds like you should definitely be proud of your work. And it takes us to the direction of observation you're describing there, that somebody watching your work then observes the world in a different way as a result. And that skill of observation is very vital for a filmmaker to have. How do you go about honing your skill of observation?
[00:11:25] Elena: I think that curiosity is one of the most important things that any creative could have. And the way that I try to hone observation and curiosity is to live as much as I can in the real world, away from screens and away from algorithmic recommendations. For example, I love to go to libraries and go to a section, figure out what the topic is, and then [00:12:00] randomly browse through books, for example.
And it's something that I think in this day and age, we are losing as humans because we get so used to algorithms, making choices for us, making recommendations based. Something that we watched or something that we read, and that is contributing to us, losing a sense of, again, curiosity and serendipity and finding things that maybe we didn't even know that we were interested in.
So yeah. I try to stay away from screens as much as I can. I go for walks every day with my daughter in the park. And I remember that one of the essays that has affected me. The most was one by Helen Keller called three days to see. And if people are not familiar with Helen Keller, so she lost her sight and her hearing when she was a toddler and so she went for life out those two senses, but actually she's one of the most inspiring humans that I can think of. She became an incredible writer, like activist really, really accomplished in her career. And she wrote beautifully. And in three days to see she imagined what she would want to see if she had sight for three days and one of the passages says that she had a friend going to see her and she asked her friend, what was the most striking thing that you saw today? And the friend couldn't even answer that. So ever since I read the essay, I've always made it a point every day to find something new. That gives me a sense of wonder and awe, even if I'm always in the same neighborhood, because I have a little child , but I'm always trying to observe it as much as I can and find something that inspires me.
[00:14:01] Sue: Well, that's a wonderful practical tip for our listener, Elena, to look at the world almost with fresh eyes and to be able to notice something new
[00:14:10] Elena: yeah, because we take so much for granted that we don't even realize.
[00:14:14] Sue: And I know that you dropped into the conversation when you were talking about being away from screens, the word realist and I think that that is the title of your latest work.
[00:14:26] Elena: Yes. So I'm working on the follow up to the illusionist. It's going to be a documentary about the way that technology is impacting our humanity. And how to recapture the sense of humanity, because I think that what has happened in the last 10, 15 years ever since the advent of smartphones is that now we are all subjected to, and I'm quoting Gérard Manière, who is this incredible writer and that we're all subjected [00:15:00] to behavior modification on a massive scale because of the way that tech platforms they're tracking everything that we do, how long we spend looking at an article, looking at a photo to serve us ads and to change us into ideal consumers ultimately. And so I wanted to tackle that in my new film because it's a brand new world. When I made the illusionist. I was talking about how mass media and advertising are trying to mold us into ideal consumers by making us all feel insecure. About the way that we look now, fast forward to 10 years later. Now the biggest tech companies are doing that again on a massive global scale to everyone, women, men, children, and the content that I see online and the ads that I see are completely different from those that my friends see my husband, my family. and I find that to be fascinating and terrifying at the same time. So I want to do something about it also because my daughter, she's only 17 months now I want to make this film and have it done. And into schools before she goes to schools.
[00:16:24] Sue: that sounds like that's an impending goal that keeps you focused on making it happen. I imagine.
[00:16:29] Elena: Yes, absolutely.
[00:16:30] Sue: What I'm picking up from what you're saying, Elena is the, how we're being influenced more and more by kind of a fear based approach as opposed to an abundance based approach. And what is it there rather than us being scared about what we're not going to have or what we're going to miss out on, or at least that's the sense I get from what you're describing. In your documentary, are you advocating there for a different way of being, or is it more about sort of giving people the facts and allowing them to make decisions for themselves?
[00:16:58] Elena: It's a blend of the two. I want to give them facts. And I also want to present them real solutions. I call that the realist, because I want to show people that there is another way of being in the world in the real world. That's incredible because I feel that the biggest illusion in our culture today is that you have to be extremely online and do you have to share as much as you can in order to be successful, to be liked, to be popular, to be lovable. And I think that's alive and I want to show people examples of individuals that are using technology in a mindful way, but they're not being used by it. That's the ultimate message. Use technology in a mindful way without being exploited or used by it.
[00:17:50] Sue: So you're a woman after my own heart, Elena, I definitely subscribe to what approach you're describing there and being able to control ourselves rather than [00:18:00] have other systems or technology control us. Is how I often look at it.
[00:18:05] Elena: Absolutely.
[00:18:06] Sue: So in terms of how you see your impact on the world being, if you were fast forwarding to, and your daughter is a little older and she's looking at mom and saying, okay, mom, wow, you've been really successful. What do you hope that your daughter will see in terms of the impact that you have made
[00:18:23] Elena: without sounding boastful. There's one area where I have definitely made an impact. And that's about representation and images of professional women online. So there's a project that I began in 2017. So that's five years ago already. I began seeing how popular animated GIFs were becoming, and I signed up for an account on giphy.com which is the largest repository of animated GIFs and I began looking up in its search engine terms like film director, CEO, scientist. And all the results showed men all the top results were only men. And I remember thinking this is not right. I want to do something about it. I was very sneaky. I began making an animated GIF a day of a different film director with the photo of the female director. They were all women. And it said, this is what a film director looks like. With the big name in all in caps of the woman director. And I made about a hundred and I would always tag Giphy on Twitter. Whenever I posted one. and my project got under the radar and they decided to give me an official channel.
Now, what an official channel does is that every time you create something, it automatically is indexed and it can be found by people when they're looking for animated GIFs so it's official and it gets a sense of approval. So that means that it could be found immediately once it's uploaded. If you're looking for gifts on Twitter, slack signal, iMessage, really anywhere imaginable.
And so what I found really funny is for film directors, there were other people making a few GIFs but I also began to make hundreds of gifts of cinematographers. All. So now when you look up cinematographer, all the animated GIFs of cinematographers, they're mine and they're all women. So I essentially created a gender gap in the images of film directors and cinematographers, because now you mostly see women. So I think for my daughter, I would like her to see this impact that I've made [00:21:00] because the reach of GIFs is really wide. I mean, it's on messaging apps. It's. The biggest social media platforms. They, they have the images that I've created. And then I expand it to CEOs and scientists and inventors and writers. So I love when I see people repurposing those images and sharing them.
[00:21:27] Sue: Wow, that it's amazing in terms of taking one small niche area and then taking small steps and those small steps then reap big rewards in terms of impact over the long term.
[00:21:38] Elena: Yeah. And they've gotten 1.6 billion views by now, billion with the B. So it's more than anything that any reach to my projects have my phone. So I'm very happy.
[00:21:49] Sue: And fascinating that, you know, you're talking about within the realists project, the, perhaps the potential downsides or negative impacts of technology, and here on the other side, you're really ripping the benefits of technology and how you can utilize it to create a different impact.
[00:22:05] Elena: Yes. Also, because I think technology is wonderful. I am not trying to demonize technology with the realist. It's just that when there are specific areas where I think that there is a kind of injustice, I like to go in and do something about it. if it makes sense.
[00:22:24] Sue: Oh, absolutely.
[00:22:25] Elena: Absolutely.
[00:22:26] Sue: Being a creative Elena. I'm wondering how or who or what inspires you given that this is the access to inspiration podcast.
[00:22:35] Elena: So my number one role model is Agnès Varda the late Belgium filmmaker who actually to call a filmmaker is a bit reductive because she was essentially a pioneer of the French New Wave of filmmaking. She made incredible fiction films, incredible documentaries .She also became an artist later in life in her seventies and had like really impactful art installations. And she was a photographer as well. So for the eclectic side and creative side, I really look up to her. Now I've had this realization a while ago that the artists that I like the most an and the painter Frida Kahlo they always. Well often put themselves in their art and up until now, I've been completely invisible in all the projects that I do. I've always wanted the projects to speak for themselves. One of the reasons that I've been invisible for delusions for example, is that I wanted everyone to be able to identify with the issues that I discussed.
And I didn't want people to see the film through the prison, a Caucasian woman in her thirties. That looks a certain way. But now again, [00:24:00] I had this realization, wow, my muses are Agnes Verda and Frida Kahlo and they're very present in their arts. And ever since I had a daughter, I've now wanted to also be on the other side of the lens, because I would want my daughter to get to know me and to see me in the present, like right now, when she's still little to understand what I do, and I love that film. And photography can almost act like time machines. They can crystallize a moment. They can hit pause. And I've now started a couple of photography projects where I'm actually in them. And it's the novelty. It's definitely getting outside of my comfort zone, but I'm really enjoying it.
[00:24:52] Sue: It's funny as you're speaking, I'm thinking that the impetus to be on the other side of the lens and to be in your work is generated partly by your daughter's arrival.
[00:25:03] Elena: And also what you're saying around that, the message sometimes that technology gives us is we have to be out there all the time, sharing all our life in public to demonstrate success. And I guess the tension between those two things is there is value in being invisible and behind the lens. And there is a certain degree of value in being in front as well.
[00:25:24] Sue: And telling your story and presenting yourself. What would you say to that kind of tension between being invisible and visible at the same?
[00:25:32] Elena: Yeah. So I hope I'm not going off on a tangent, but for example, I'm making a photography project about motherhood, because I want to reveal what it's like to be a female artist. I don't think that there are many visible examples out there to be a working. Female artist, who's a mother. And so I've started to do photos with me and my daughter to just show what a day in their life is like. But I am very conscious of protecting her privacy. So I'm framing all the photos of her from the back. You never see her face. There is this issue of consent that I think we are not paying enough attention to. There are many influencers. And prominent people that share every second of their children's lives on social media. And I think privacy is a human right that I hold. So dear and I want my daughter to have privacy. So. My juggling between visibility and invisibility. It's more from that point of view of like understanding and being very conscious of consent. And somebody's privacy, if you make sense.
[00:26:47] Sue: Oh, absolutely. You're introducing so many different and for me, interesting questions to consider, and I hope the listeners to consider as well in the work that you're doing and how you do the work so really [00:27:00] understanding why you do it and how you do it that really is causing the listener to think as well and reflect on maybe some things that they take for granted along the way. If there was a key message that you would want to leave our listeners with from all of the things you've spoken about today, Elena, what would be that one key message or takeaway you hope would stay with them?
[00:27:21] Elena: That I think it's incredibly powerful and cathartic to turn frustrations into opportunities for creativity. It's what I've been doing for more than ten years and for example, in those days when you know, a caretaker for more than half the day, because I try to spend as much time with my daughter as possible. I often feel like a little bit invisible and maybe irrelevant because I used to do a lot more before I was a mom. and so I am still practicing this modus operandi like, okay. I am feeling a little bit invisible. What can I do to overcome this frustration? The way that I do that is to increase the visibility of women that I admire through my projects. So elevating other women. Actually helps me with those frustrations. So I think that hopefully this advice can be applicable to anyone. You don't have to be a working filmmaker or working photographer. Anyone is creative. I do believe that, that we all have that in us. And I think it can be very powerful to turn frustrations into opportunities for creativity.
[00:28:45] Sue: Wonderful. What a powerful message to leave us with Elena. It's been really intriguing to speak to you today. I've really enjoyed what you've had to say. If our listener wants to find out more about the work that you do and the work that you're going to be publishing and premiering in the future. No doubt. How might they be able to do that?
[00:29:01] Elena: So they could go to my website, ElenaRossini.com and all the social media links are there.
[00:29:09] Sue: Wonderful. And I definitely know that that is an impressive and impactful website worth to look at. Thank you. So thank you so much for your time today, and I wish you well with the realist documentary as that comes along. And I do hope you'll keep us posted in future as to when that comes out.
[00:29:25] Elena: Thank you so so much, it's been really an honor and a pleasure. Thank you,
[00:29:31] Sue: wow. I loved speaking to Elena, so I encourage you to hone your curiosity. Just as she suggested by picking one of our access to inspiration podcast episodes that you haven't yet listened. And maybe you'll discover something new within that. Remember, you can keep connecting with us on social media. We're on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram, just search for access to inspiration. And of course you'll find more than 70 episodes from our back catalog. By going on over to our [00:30:00]website, our access to inspiration.org. I'll be back again next week with another inspiring guest and hope you can join me.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him) Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale talks to Susan Murphy, a broadcast voice coach who helps young broadcasters find and use authentic voice and pitch. In this conversation Susan describes how to access your best vocal pitch, why audio and voice has become more important recently, and what causes some of her clients have tears in their eyes when they find their authentic voice.
Susan Murphy spent 40 years on-air and in production, learning what makes an effective voice, and it has propelled her career. Her voiceover work has appeared on television commercials and programs, websites, and even e-learning (she is known as Vanessa in some Artificial Intelligence environments). More recently she found her true passion in teaching others and now works with clients as a broadcast voice coach, polishing the on-air sound of anchors and reporters. Find about more about Susan Murphy on LinkedIn : Website
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes 'Audio and voice has become more important, because context is now even way more important because of disinformation and misinformation.'
'An audio only podcast requires that you pay more attention and your brain to engage a little bit more in painting the picture.'
'When we work on uncovering her authentic voice, tears come into her eyes. And she tells me it's healing.'
'I am very conscious of modulating the speed and allowing pauses to work in conversation.'
'You and I are having a conversation, but those who are listening to us, I'd like to think I'm in conversation with them as well.'
'So many people are afraid of just not talking for a second.'
'Voices are very individual.'
'I help you access a voice that can be the basis of inspiration.'
' I consider myself extraordinarily lucky to love what I do and have loved it since day one.'
'Go with your gut. Listen with it, act with it. Trust it more often.' Susan Murphy transcription [00:00:00] Sue Stockdale : Hello, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to the access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can be inspired by people who may be unlike. We hope their experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and make you think. Now today's guest had me on the edge of my seat. Literally it's quite daunting to be speaking with a voice coach because I knew she was likely to be assessing how I sound when I speak. Susan Murphy has been in the broadcast industry for over 40 years and her roles have included radio news, director, TV news, reporter, talk show host, producer for radio, voiceover artist, and now a broadcast voice coach.
Keep listening if you want to find out how to access your best vocal pitch and why Susan has seen tears come into the eyes of some of her clients, when they find their authentic voice. Welcome to the podcast, Susan, it's lovely to speak to you today.
[00:01:16] Susan Murphy: It's so nice to be here, Sue. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:19] Sue Stockdale : I must tell the listener that I am slightly nervous today because of course speaking to a voice coach, I'm kind of feeling I'm being critiqued as I go along. I'm sure that's not the case though. Is it Susan?
[00:01:30] Susan Murphy: No, it is not the case. This is a no judgment zone.
[00:01:35] Sue Stockdale : well, I'm glad to hear that. That that's fantastic. Now, as I said, you've had a career in voice and I wonder if you were just taking a bird's eye perspective to kick us off and reflecting on how audio, if at all has changed during the time that you've been engaged in the broadcast industry, what would be one thing that sort of stands out for you?
[00:01:57] Susan Murphy: That is a wonderful question. And it's a question that could take me all half an hour to answer, but I'll try not to do. I started my career in radio and moved into television. And then I've always been a voice actor. So I've done commercials and narration, and now I'm a voice coach. And one of the things that sticks with me is coming almost full circle in four decades is that audio, I think is actually more important maybe than it used to be. Everybody thinks that life is about the picture. Life is about the moving image and to some degree that's true, but the moving image often needs context. The image needs explanation, the image needs commentary. And so audio and voice and everything surrounding I think has become more important, especially as the world has changed, [00:03:00] say in the last five, eight years, because context is now even way more important because of disinformation and misinformation, that sometimes you can't always rely on the pictures you see, and admittedly, you can't always rely on the voices you hear. Got that. But I think audio is a simpler medium. For one thing, and I think there's a whole lot more importance to it now than there was say, 35 years.
[00:03:29] Sue Stockdale : Well, it's really interesting that you say that Susan, I could completely go off on a tangent here and talk about how podcasting is really changing as well. Yeah, because podcasting is moving into podcasting and video, and I certainly far the simpler audio only version myself. I dunno if you have a view on that.
[00:03:48] Susan Murphy: I enjoy both. I've done both, but there's something about kind of like the early days of radio, more than a hundred years ago when people started listening to voices that came out of the air and it was so immaculately new and there was this mystery to it, that where it activated your brain to paint the pictures. I think the same is true in an audio only podcast. It requires that you pay more attention. And it requires that your brain engage a little bit more in painting the pictures.
[00:04:21] Sue Stockdale : Well, that segues us fantastically well into thinking about what we're actually listening for. You said the brain has to listen a little bit harder when you are listening to a voice, Susan, what is it that you are listening for?
[00:04:37] Susan Murphy: These days, it's all about authenticity to the point of that word. Authentic. Authenticity. I think in the media in general is being a little overused, but let's go with that. I'm always listening for an authentic voice and that's what I teach. An authentic voice. And a lot of us don't know where our authentic voice is, particularly women because we think of authentic as equating to low or deep.
Mm. Not always completely true. Men are born with the larger adams apple and testosterone that automatically makes a voice lower. Not to say they don't have problems with authenticity. They do, but women have problems with authentic voices. And I have found in my coaching, the reasons why were very surprising to me and a little bit heartbreaking women often resort to a very high pitched or breathy or little girl sounding voice that they carry with them well into their, you know, twenties and thirties and forties. And I'm learning it's because that breathy little girl, Barbie doll voice served them very well [00:06:00] as children in dealing with the authority figures in their lives, mostly men.
But I think sometimes. And those voices got those girls, what they needed, what they wanted, and you can take that to the nth degree. And I think that there can be some very sad stories in there. So when I work with young reporters and anchors, and it's kind of amazing that a reporter anchor would even consider going on air with that little girl voice.
But she doesn't know that's what she has sometimes. So when we work on uncovering or not changing anything, I'm literally uncovering her authentic voice tears come into her eyes and she tells me it's healing. I did not see that coming when I started the vocal coaching business, but I find it a blessing.
I find it an honor that these young women can share that with me. Sometimes we unpack I'm not a psychologist, but we'll unpack just a little bit. About what it was like as a child, whether she was the peacemaker or whether she was the last child and had to be a little louder than all the others, or there are multiple reasons that they can share that with me and that we can move beyond that. Talk about inspiration. A for them, but B for me to continue what I'm doing. Boom. Done inspiration right there.
[00:07:33] Sue Stockdale : Wow. How satisfying that must be for you, Susan? Yes. So I'd like to almost turn the tables on you in relation to finding your authentic voice and when and how do you think you developed your authentic voice?
[00:07:47] Susan Murphy: Again, another very good question because of my age. I am soon to be 66. I knew very young that I wanted to well. They often say that broadcasters are really just high school actors who can't sing, but , I can sing. So I wanted to be an actor and my parents said, no, no, we're not paying for that. So I picked the next best thing and that was communications.
So I graduated from college in the late 1970s. I'm standing on the shoulders of the Jane Pauley of the Barbara Walters of those very early women broadcasters. So in the late seventies into the early eighties, it was super easy for women to get jobs because everybody was hiring, they had to diversify their workforce.
So it was super easy. And I got my first job in television in 19. 78 77, actually. So when you realize you're now going to be on television, you do think about your voice and you do think about the men you're going to work with. And yes, for me, it was sort of a, a decision like, okay, I need to make my voice sound important or not authentic.
I wasn't thinking that, but I was thinking it had to be a weighty voice. It had to be a [00:09:00] voice with gravitas. So I kind of had it in my head. Well, I'm just going. lower my voice, I guess that's what I thought. Fortunately, I was born with most of this voice managed to avoid picking up accents, Philadelphia, which where I was born in New York, which is where I moved to.
So there was this sort of conscious effort on my part to at least sound serious. I think I'm kind of lucky. I didn't hurt my voice or ruin my voice. So in the last 40 years, what I have learned with regard to singing lessons and yogic breathing and just voice acting lessons and my own experience, I've kind of put together my own little. Here's a really good way to uncover your authentic voice without hurting yourself.
[00:09:49] Sue Stockdale : So you were working on yourself if you like. Working on how you presented yourself, how you communicated to be most effective over the years, as I'm listening to Susan, just in the commentary you just gave there. I was listening to the modulation in your voice, and I was listening to the pacing of how you were communicating. So I'm wondering if you could get behind the scenes and help the listener to almost understand what is it that you're doing when I ask your question and you're answering, how much are you thinking about what you're saying and how much are you thinking about how you're saying it?
[00:10:28] Susan Murphy: Also a very good question. It's a little bit of both, but I think because of what I do, I probably think a little bit more of how I'm answering the question. One of the things I'm very conscious of. Is speed in which I speak. And I try to keep that at a very easy to listen to pace because what I've learned and what I teach is that for reporters, for example, or anybody in conversation, if you're an expert talking to somebody about what you do, you've got all that knowledge up in your head and you've know how to explain it.
And you can go a mile a minute, but the person you're talking to doesn't have all of that. So I am very conscious of modulating the speed. And allowing pauses to work into conversation for two reasons. One, it allows me to maybe come up with my next sentence, but it allows my listener to sort of absorb what I've talked about or what I've said.
and that has to be a back and forth. You and I are having a conversation, but those who are listening to us, I'd like to think I'm in conversation with them as well. And for us to have a conversation, we need to be able to understand each other and absorb what's being said. So I'm very conscious of that.
One of the other things that the pause does. Is that it prevents you to some degree from [00:12:00]using like, so that's just a little trick that if you take the pause, so many people are afraid of just not talking for a second. Nobody died. I wasn't speaking and nobody died. Because we're in a crazy world where we're going at breakneck speed and we think everything has to be filled with sound and light and touch and taste and smell. No, it doesn't. Wait a minute, slow it down. So pausing, I'm a big fan of a pause. It just allows everybody to catch up with everything.
[00:12:37] Sue Stockdale : And you're illustrating it wonderfully for our listeners, Susan, and how you in how you're communicating with us.
[00:12:43] Susan Murphy: I do overdo it. I probably go a step too far, but you get the idea.
[00:12:47] Sue Stockdale : No, I think role modeling is a really great way for people to learn. So to hear you role model, the pause for us is very helpful.
If you're enjoying this episode, we have over 70 more that you can access on our website. For example, in episode 32, I spoke to podcast manager, Joni Deutsch about why silence is just as important as sound. And in episode 37, Sameer Dua describes how listening to your own inner voice can be helpful. Hop one over to access, to inspiration.org and find them all.
I want to turn the focus of our conversation onto you, reflecting on your career and can't help. But wondering when you've been narrating a commercial or seeing yourself on the television, how does it feel if you're walking through a store or turning the radio on the car? And all of a sudden there is that voice.
[00:13:45] Susan Murphy: It never gets old and you never stop being surprised. And. It just warms your heart for about six years. I was the TV voice for Fixadent the denture cream. It was a British actress actually, who did the commercial, but they needed an American voice. So the commercial could air in Canada and the us. So I dubbed in the voice. The actress's name was Tracy. In the commercials, they had a whole series of them where she's standing in this big, super big mouth and she's standing on dentures and the dentures are moving and she's falling off and, and I would have to fall off dentures.
It was crazy, but it was a hoot. So every time I would see it in the US and it was mostly on cable, but occasionally on network television. I would just laugh and giggle and it was, it was so much fun. And I do enjoy listening back to the things I've narrated. Of course. We're our worst enemies when it comes to listening to ourselves and critiquing ourselves and, oh, I could have done that line better. Or why didn't I pause there? Or I [00:15:00] could have ended the sentence this way. We're very harsh on ourselves. That's why you need a coach. So you're not so harsh on yourself, you know? And so that as a coach, I do like to think I inspire. I mean, I just don't show you or teach you or critique you. I try to ignite something in your brain that allows you to take the voice to where only you can take it.
Voices are very individual and I have learned why women sometimes don't use their best vocal pitch. I have also found it an honor to watch the blossom. The petals unfold in people who go a step further or do a read that I think is brilliant. And I wouldn't have done it that way, but look what you just did to watch that light. Just, it's never a light bulb. It never goes on real quick, but the light just comes up. And that to me is passing on inspiration that I just love to do. If I can give you the access to this kind of inspiration, I've done my job.
[00:16:07] Sue Stockdale : And of course, that's the name of the podcast. so good that you're here, Susan.
[00:16:10] Susan Murphy: That's why I wanted to do this podcast because what I do, isn't just voice. I help you access a voice that can be the basis of inspiration or a part of inspiration or the end of inspir. I don't know.
[00:16:29] Sue Stockdale : And just as I have done with my earlier questions, Susan, I'd like to throw the question back to you in terms of who or what inspires you. You mentioned you're in your mid sixties, you've had an illustrious career in broadcast. How do you get inspiration when maybe there's a morning where you just don't feel like getting up and rushing around and getting on with your day? Right?
[00:16:52] Susan Murphy: The inspiration always comes from knowing I can make a difference that even for the shyest person or the person with the highest voice or the person who hates the way they sound, I can make a difference or I can show you how you make the difference.
You know, I like to say, I don't show you my superpowers. I help you uncover yours. So that's what the inspiration is to me. And I think that's probably been true for all the years I was in radio and television. I consider myself extraordinarily lucky to love what I do and have loved it since day one. So many people don't get to do what they love.
And I was one of those people who knew in college and knew before college. And when I taught at a university and you would see the kids who just seemed to be floundering, they just didn't know where they were going or what interested them or you almost couldn't find their passion because they hadn't found it yet. And [00:18:00] I was so very lucky that I had already done that. And don't think that escapes me. It does not. So the inspiration for me is just the love of what I do.
[00:18:10] Sue Stockdale : Well, I certainly can get that as well. Susan, I always think that waking up every morning and doing what you love and happen to get paid for it is a joy.
[00:18:18] Susan Murphy: How were you inspired to start this podcast?
[00:18:22] Sue Stockdale : Great question, Susan. My co-founder Clive steeper and myself were having a conversation. Both of us are coaches. And we saw that in the conversations we were having with our clients a little bit like how you just described at the start of this conversation, where you see somebody's eyes light up and the best of them comes out through conversation.
We both were having that experience with our own clients and seeing that that doesn't happen in many other walks of life or parts of society. Added to that, the way that technology drives us to become more focused on people like us and creating echo chambers. And we have seen that inspiration comes from all places.
Everybody can be inspiring to somebody else just as we had experienced in those coaching conversations. So we thought, well, why not create a platform, a medium using podcasting to enable people to share their stories from all walks of life, from all countries, from all backgrounds and through doing that, if they bring out the best of themselves, then that will light up somebody else's eyes and inspire them.
[00:19:34] Susan Murphy: Brilliant. Of course. Yes. Yeah, it does. It is so helpful to hear what lights up other people's because we you're right. We do. We only see what we see. We only see what we are around. And so to listen to something from a completely other sphere or country. Yeah, exactly. Love it. One of the things I would really like to share with our listeners is the very simplest of ways to help you access what is probably your best vocal pitch. And it's really so easy to do, and it's something that you can practice and find. And as I said, it's a combination of what I learned through yoga and singing lessons and, and it's really quite simple. It's a matter of, for one thing. I like people to imagine their backbones from the tip of their tailbone up through their neck.
And if their backbone went up through their head. It doesn't. I want you to picture that backbone like a string of pearls. And as though somebody's gently pulling on the pearls and what that does is that it elongates your spine a little bit and creates this beautiful, clear unobstructed pathway for air and energy.
And then the next thing which I had only learned maybe 20, 25 years ago, that just blew me away was. [00:21:00] Relax and lower your shoulders. Why does your shoulders have so much to do with your voice? Couple of reasons. One, where do we all carry anxiety and stress? We carry it in our shoulders. Tension, right? So if you can lower your shoulders, really let the muscles go all across the top of your chest and across the top of your back and heavy and loose shoulders.
And then when you go to breathe, we're broadcasters. So I always teach in through your mouth, but most of us aren't so you can do it in through your nose too, but to make sure that breath gets all the way down into your belly and your belly expands like a balloon. So if you've imagined your backbone or is a string of pearls, if your shoulders are heavy and if you're breathing into your, all the way down into your diaphragm, you take that breath of air and I can pretty much guarantee you if you've done that right. The next sentence you say will probably come out in the range of pitch that is authentically yours.
[00:22:15] Sue Stockdale : Some wise advice, Susan, I hope her listener will give it a try and see what happens. In your career I'm wondering when you were given advice along the way, perhaps wondering where did that advice help you? And did you ever find yourself in any sticky or difficult situations?
[00:22:34] Susan Murphy: Sue, do we have another hour? I don't think we do. Sticky situations. Every broadcaster has them. Oh. In fact, we usually have them weekly, but you asked for a particular situation and advice that I was given. And I like to tell the story I was in college and I was taking a TV and upper level TV course, just like the one I would teach 35 years later taking a course and we had to do a commercial. And so I was gonna do a commercial with perfume and the commercial was being taped.
This was back in the day when the lights had to be so bright and the room was so dark, all you could basically see was just shining lights in your face. And you knew there was a camera out there somewhere. So I go to do the commercial and I go to spray the perfume and I spray it into my eyes and I go, oh, and I doubled down like, oh, oh, oh. And I hear from the back of the room, the instructor say. Keep going, Susan. Okay. So I guess I did, I guess I finished it, but the brilliance of that was the instructor never made me watch it back. So I always hear him in my head saying keep going, Susan,
[00:23:58] Sue Stockdale : that's really helpful. I'm sure. [00:24:00] And have there been times where you've had to keep going and things haven't worked out.
[00:24:05] Susan Murphy: Oh sure. Equipment failure or the interview was going badly with whoever you're talking with. And I used to do a radio show and I had a fill in co-host one day, and I don't remember who we were interviewing, but it was going badly. His name was Bob Fitz Simmons my fill in cohost. And he just decided that we were going to end the interview.
And he even said out loud on the air. You know, it appears that you're not having a good time today with us and you know, it's okay. We all have those days. We're gonna end the interview right now. And he went to commercial. Holy cow. I'd never seen anything like that, but, and I never had to do it on my own, but I always knew I could. I could, so sure things go wrong all the time. All the time.
[00:24:58] Sue Stockdale : Well, you've given us a lot of life lessons today in what you've shared with us, Susan, I'm getting these amazing pictures in my mind of these situations that you're so eloquently describing to us through your voice. Well, thank you to be able to write it. You, at this outset, you said we could create a picture in our minds from what we were listening to. If there was one piece of advice amongst the many you've already given to us, if there was one piece of advice you would want our listener to take away and reflect upon and think about the next time they're listening to another episode of access to inspiration podcast. What would you like them to have in their mind as they're listening to that conversation?
[00:25:37] Susan Murphy: The first thing that popped into my head was breathe with the host and the guest. If you kind of lean in a little bit and breathe with kind of with them as they're going. I think that makes for a richer understanding for what you're listening to.
We give breath short shrift breathing is more than just getting. Oxygen into your lungs. I think we actually live down in our guts down in our diaphragms and you know, the expression. Oh, my gut told me not to do that. Gotta trust my gut with that decision. Go with your gut. Listen with it. Act with it. Trust it more often.
[00:26:22] Sue Stockdale : Wonderful. It's been absolutely wonderful to speak to with you today, Susan, if our listener wants to find out more about you and the work that you do, how might they do that?
[00:26:32] Susan Murphy: I'm certainly on LinkedIn as Susan Murphy, but as it was the most popular name to give a baby in 1956, there are many, many, many Susan Murphy's. So just look for Susan Murphy, like voice coach or something, or I have my own website, which is Susan Murphy.vosot.com. Voat, what is Vosot you ask V O S O T. It is broadcast [00:27:00] shorthand, four voiceover sound on tape. And if a reporter is writing a Vosot she is writing the script that goes with a particular piece of video. So, oh, that's the Vosot so my company is Susan Murphy Vosot dot com and you can reach me through there.
[00:27:19] Sue Stockdale : Fantastic. We will put links to those things on the show notes as well, Susan, to make sure our listener can find you easily. Super. I'm gonna be concentrating on my diaphragm and my breathing in future, making sure I sound at my best for our future guests as well.
And I'm also gonna be listening with a new sense of connection with other podcasts that I engage with as. Well, I hope you're ready to take Susan's advice and listen, and breathe along with a host and guest in the next podcast that you listen to. I really enjoyed speaking with her. Remember, you can keep connected with us on social media. We are on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Just search for access to inspiration. Next week, I'll be speaking to Italian artist writer and activist, Elena Rossini who's most notable project is the critically acclaimed documentary. The illusionists I hope you can join.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him) Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale talks to Adeyanju Olomola about her transition from a twenty-year career in a corporate organisation to running her own business as a Certified Professional Coach.
Adeyanju reflects on:
• What imposter syndrome is, and how to overcome it • The reality of how long it can take to get a paying client • What she learned about life from her twin children
Adeyanju works with purpose-driven individuals and organisations to coach them discover what success means to them and identify pathways to growth. In addition to coaching, she supports learning and development programs within organizations through training and blended learning facilitation techniques. Prior to setting up her coaching practice, she worked in the fast-moving consumer goods (FMCG) industry with 20 years of diversified experience.
A member of the International Coaching Federation, Adeyanju holds the Associate Certified Coach (ACC) credential and is currently on the path to Professional Certified Coach credential. She is the immediate past Vice President of ICF Nigeria Chapter, a certified John Mattone Intelligent Leadership Executive Coach, an Extended DISC & FinxS Accredited Consultant, a Narrative Coach Enhanced Practitioner, and a Team Coaching Foundations Certified Coach from GTCI.
Adeyanju operates a hybrid business model – as the Lead Coach and CEO of The Source Coaching Ltd and an Associate Senior Coach and Trainer with TNM Coaching, TBA Consults, CoachHub and BetterUp.
Connect with Adeyanju Olomola on LinkedIn and Instagram
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes "You need to hear, and also speak your customers or your consumers language."
"I was literally terrified every single day."
'Imposter Syndrome is a psychological pattern in which an individual doubts their skills, their talents, and accomplishments, and they have a persistent, internalized fear of being exposed.'
"You actually forget who you are."
"I realised - what I don't know, I will learn."
"The common thread is really about the narratives that have shaped us from an early age and into adulthood."
"Overcoming it begins with self-awareness. To really be aware of who you are, and how you've come that far." Adeyanju Olomola Transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hi there. I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to the access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can be inspired by people who may be unlike you. We hope that their stories and experiences cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and make you think. Well, I'm delighted today that my guest for episode 75 is Adeyanju Olomola from Nigeria. Adeyanju is a certified professional coach based in Lagos and she explains what transition was like for her to move from the comfort of a corporate role into starting up business as a coach. Welcome to the podcast. Adeyanju it's great to speak to you today.
[00:00:58] Adeyanju: Hi Sue. Likewise.
[00:01:00] Sue: Now I understand that I'm speaking to you in Nigeria and I've certainly never been to that country. So maybe it would be great to give us a sense of what life is like in Nigeria these days.
[00:01:10] Adeyanju: Oh, wow. Life is exciting here in Lagos, Nigeria. And as you would have with any emerging nation, there are numerous challenges that appear insurmountable, but as we say here in Nigeria, we move and we have such an enormous reservoir of belief and self confidence that every day we believe, , the next day is gonna be better and greater. So that optimism it cause through our veins that, you know, we're always looking forward to what can come well.
[00:01:40] Sue: I love that sense of optimism that you're describing there. One of the things we'll be speaking about is around your transition from working in the corporate space and moving into entrepreneurship. I'd love to hear about your career journey.
[00:01:54] Adeyanju: I had an amazing 20 years. One month. I always think that adding that less one month has a nice ring to it. So essentially 20 years I worked in one organization. I worked for the CocaCola bottler here in Nigeria, in diverse roles. And it was very exciting in the sense that I transverse through three different departments. Started out in it for about two and a half years managing the help desk for the business, then moved on to public affairs and communications bear in mind. I have a degree first degree in industrial chemistry, which had no bearing to that career, but that's where I spent the longest in public affairs and communications about 14 years.
And in the latter part of my career, because I felt what next? It was a support function. And I had reached the peak locally, and there were no roles at the group office. So I moved to sales. I wanted a GM role. So I did, I was heading the modern trade part of the business for about three and a half years before I [00:03:00] decided to start my own business in coaching.
[00:03:04] Sue: And in terms of that transition, that idea that you're leaving a corporate organization somewhere you've been for many years. What were your feelings and your thoughts with the idea of stepping into the world of entrepreneurship yourself?
[00:03:19] Adeyanju: It was scary, but I think I kind of like had been preparing myself and I was a bit prepared mentally for that transition in the sense that the year before I started, I left, I actually started making plans in terms of registering the business and all of that. And the fact that I got introduced into coaching five years, prior and had been coaching internally, I was certified to coach internally. It had also prepared me when I made that decision that I was gonna go into coaching full time. It helped, with that transition, making that decision. Now, what happened after is a different ball game, getting into the world of entrepreneurship and going after clients the first year or the first six months was. Kind of like brutal cos I felt, Hey, I have what it takes. I've got the network. Once I send in a proposal they're gonna consider and I'll land coaching, engagements. Nah, it didn't work like that.
[00:04:27] Sue: There's always that wonderful optimism that you talked about earlier on there, that belief that things will work out when you start up in business. And then sometimes we come down to earth with a bump when things didn't business didn't roll in, as quickly as you had anticipated, how did you cope with that?
[00:04:43] Adeyanju: It was tough. I mean, it was tough. I had already, mapped out how many clients I could take in a day. I had everything ready and one month, two months, three months, not a single client. I panicked. Even though I had decided I wasn't going back into the corporate world. So it was an all or nothing thing I panicked. And I remember talking to a friend and, she laughed, we were hearing me moan and whine and scream and doing everything. And she, she just asked me a question, which I really could relate to that. What if the Coca-Cola inventor had closed shop after three months? Just because he hadn't sold a bottle.
And that brought things, home for me that okay. He didn't, so this is normal. Some people maybe first day they land jobs. Some people, it may take six months or even a year. So that made me breathe and take a step back. And realized that I was actually waiting for the clients, just send an email and expect that they would, contact me. So I started to be a bit more aggressive, started attending meetings and fairs and conferences where my target audience were HR directors, CEOs, and striking up conversations and talking to people. [00:06:00] And I landed my first job after.
[00:06:02] Sue: So it is funny, you're saying around the difference between doing, selling for your own business. And when you were in sales, within the corporate space, it's a little bit more difficult when you're selling yourself as part of that service. It makes it a little bit different than selling a product. What do you make of that?
[00:06:21] Adeyanju: Yes, it is because I think I had disassociated myself from the product or the service that I was offering. And it was giant wake up call that it's not just about the service I'm offering or the products from this service. It's also about me and I needed to leverage the enormous Goodwill that I felt I had banked whilst working in the corporate world. I had to bring all of that and do marketing as well. I think it was almost like I forgot everything about selling and had to now bring myself back to say, okay, these are the things you need to do.
Who are your target audience? What exactly do they need? Can you provide that service? How can you speak the language? And that was something that we learned and also put in practice whilst, working with the beverage producer you need to hear, and also speak your customers or your consumers language. It's not about, your own speak. So I had to abandon all that coaching talk and really speak the language of my buyers. So to say what it is they're going through and how coaching could move them, to their desired outcomes.
[00:07:34] Sue: You're reminding me of that importance of language. And sometimes the language that people do speak in corporates is quite different from other walks of life and being able to do that translation and step into your, your buyer's shoes is so important. It is now the other thing that you just reminded me of, as you're speaking there is around follow up because you were saying there that you'd sent out a proposal and then expected them to come back to you. And one conversation is enough. I'm wondering if you also find that with your coaching clients, that accountability and follow up is an important part of the whole coaching process.
[00:08:11] Adeyanju: Yes. Yes, I do agree because you know, life happens to all of us and the coaching engagement or the service I'm providing may not be front and centre. Most times it is. I think perhaps I was looking at almost everyone through my eyes. So if I tell you, I'm gonna get back to you. I have a mental reminder. I do get back. So that for me was a huge shift. You know, when someone tells you they're gonna get back, you may need to gently prod or nudge them to do so.
[00:08:45] Sue: Yeah. As you say, it's not through their lack of desire, it's just practicality. If anything else. Yeah. I also understand that imposter syndrome is a topic that you're spending quite a bit of time talking about these days with your coaching [00:09:00] clients.
[00:09:00] Adeyanju: Yes. Yes, it is.
[00:09:01] Sue: What makes that topic of interest to you?
[00:09:05] Adeyanju: I think it is. I haven't experienced it when I got my first transition to a leadership role and feeling so excited. And then going through all of that, working through it. And when I transited, you know, to a different function, completely allowing myself to remember all the things that helped me through that. And then now moving into the coaching world, starting out. And I think it was perhaps during the pandemic that I started noticing it creeping up and I was wondering, Hey, what's going on here? And listening to clients as well, and seeing how accomplished men and women go through those feelings of imposterism and you're just, almost feel like shaking them, but you can't because, and I remembered myself as. No one knew what was I was going through because I would show up at work. But claws that that feeling kind of like sunk it's clothes in me until I sought help. and I was able to walk free.
[00:10:16] Sue: And for the listener that hasn't come across this idea of imposter syndrome before, how would you describe it?
[00:10:22] Adeyanju: Okay. So I will say this, that it is a psychological pattern in which an individual doubts their skills, their talents, and accomplishments, and they have a persistent, it is there it's persistence, internalized fear of being exposed as a fraud. So all of that is actually going on within, you may not see it on the outside. And if I would describe it, it's like an accomplished swimmer with all the right gear, jumping into a pool of water and they're thrashing about, and if they feel as if they're drowning and they are actually going under or so it seems, and they discover later on that the water is knee deep, just as the sign said, but they saw the sign that's why they jumped it hoping to stand, but they fell face flat. So it's, you forget what you've accomplished so far, you lose your bearing for a short while. And for some people it extends into a long period.
[00:11:27] Sue: Even as I'm listening to you, I can identify a sense of almost panic that might be felt by the person.
[00:11:36] Adeyanju: Yes. Oh, yes. I mean, for me, when I my first experience of the imposter syndrome was I had just been promoted to head of function. I mean, this was something that I walked hard for. I looked forward to and I got it. And I think it was the first week I kind of like froze and I started having conversations in my head.
Oh my [00:12:00] God, they're gonna realize they made a mistake. That GM is going to call me. I actually had the conversation typed out printed in my head. He's gonna call and say, Adeyanju we made a mistake. We promoted you too early, but what we're gonna do is we're gonna have someone that you will shadow for a year and we'll just give you another title.
So we'll just move office. I mean, it was crazy. I would literally come into the office, not really be able to do anything, but I will sit at my computer, you know? Working or so it seemed, and this went from for weeks, for almost a month, until one morning. I said, you know what? I can't continue like this, the phone rings, I'm jumping because I'm so scared that it's gonna be the GM to give me those lines.
And I reached out to someone to say, this is what I'm going through. I need a woman who's accomplished who is more or less at the top of our career. Is married. And if they have kids or not, it doesn't really matter cos I didn't have children. And the gentleman, linked me up with the MD of one of the banks here in Nigeria and incidentally, she's now on the board of Coca-Cola Hellenic and I had a conversation with her for an hour and She set me straight.
[00:13:12] Sue: What did she tell you? That really was impactful?
[00:13:14] Adeyanju: She listened to me when I came in, when she was like, okay, I understand you wanted to talk to about really what's going on with you. And there I was, my voice was shaking, cheery eyes and everything. She listened to everything I had to say. And she says, Coca-Cola. That's the multinational. Multinationals don't take decisions, lightly, this was well thought through. So first get it in your head. They did not make a mistake. So you worked hard for this, the felt you had the track record and the potential. And that was it for me. I can't remember anything she said, but I just remember what she said that day about they did not make a mistake. They saw your potential and you got that role.
[00:13:53] Sue: And I'm wondering that when you then heard that message from an external source, did that help you then to start to introduce that into your own self talk? So you were then telling that message to yourself as well?
[00:14:07] Adeyanju: Oh yes. Yes it did because I actually remembered all the work I have put in to get this job and realize that I deserved this. I was the best candidate. So it wasn't a case of, there were others better than me. I was the best candidate and I let everything grow and I set my mind to learning what to do and growing. And it helped me when I made the transition to sales. I mean, I'd never done anything in sales before. And I went in. A statement that I read. I think it was by sir Richard Branson, that when someone offers you an opportunity, say yes, and then learn how to do it. And another one was my mantra, which served me throughout that period and is still serving me. And it was what I don't know, I will learn. So I came to the office every day. I had both by my desk [00:15:00] printed and it really helped me that if I don't know something, I would ask and learn how to do.
[00:15:06] Sue: Those are such useful tips to remind our listeners about the other point that I think you bring up in, what you say is the word potential. And that strikes me that that employers don't necessarily always hire the fully formed, complete package in somebody they're actually hiring somebody who's got potential to grow and develop. So if you were already fully formed, why would you take the job and I'm wondering whether you would agree with that view as well.
[00:15:35] Adeyanju: I would agree. Yes. Part, depending on the role at times, you either hire someone who is fully formed because you need to hit the road running, but also that person's got potential. And I really believe that employers hire for potential.
[00:15:52] Sue: And if you're enjoying this episode, You can listen to other episodes featuring the subject of transition. Back in episode two, I spoke to Harriet Minter about career change and transition. And in episode 11, also, I spoke to Deb Downing and Dennis Borner who transitioned from the world of work into a Caribbean selling adventure. So there's plenty, more episodes that you can find if you hop on over to access to inspiration.org and you'll see them all listed there. So when you're working with clients these days and they start to open up and reveal that they maybe are feeling like an imposter, what do you do or say to help them overcome that feeling?
[00:16:40] Adeyanju: I think it starts first with self awareness and helping them. To really be aware of themselves, who they are, how they've come that far. And we begin to look at what I'll call the truth and the facts. So it's various means I could ask you and this, I learned from a friend, so do a list of your accomplishments. And usually the numbers scare people, 50 accomplishments in the last two years and they go, ah, 50, that's a lot but I then qualified to say it doesn't have to be something massive, like winning a Nobel prize, anything you learned how to make a muffin, you learned how to drive, or you taught someone how to drive and you'd be amazed how much people would then sit down and begin to think about and write down their accomplishments.
I went work the group of ladies. And I said, okay, because it was a group session, it was 10 accomplishments and what they came up with was truly amazing and just got them to read it out, to the rest of the group, just by hearing themselves and what it is they had accomplished and the fact that they had disregarded it and just chalked it as, oh, it's no big deal. It is a big deal.
[00:17:57] Sue: And in terms of where [00:18:00] imposter syndrome may manifest itself, Are there any particular areas, if you like that you find that people experience imposter syndrome more than others?
[00:18:10] Adeyanju: Not really, but I think the common thread is really about the narratives that have shaped us from an early age and into adulthood, the stereotypes, the self talk and what has been said to you, and by the time you internalize all of that, And you are then faced with things that you're not familiar with. New terrains, new circles, new roles, even being in the presence of other people. I think those are some of the triggers that enable the imposter syndrome, to manifest itself. Cos you'd look at some people and it's like, they have no business feeling like a fraud, but they do.
[00:18:56] Sue: You mentioned the word narrative there, and we've got to the stage in your narrative in your story that you are an entrepreneur and you're beginning and starting up a coaching business. So as we always like to know in a story, what happened next ?
[00:19:11] Adeyanju: So I did start my business is about four years old and I guess really sitting and deciding what I wanted for myself as a growing business. And is still key to the trajectory that I am on. Now. I decided in terms of the vision for my business, that I wasn't just going to be a local coach. I wanted to be resident locally, but operating globally. And I think it was about 18 months into my business that adopted or changed my business model and made it a hybrid model in the sense that I do. And I will go after clients locally or internationally as the opportunities rise, but also I will collaborate with bigger coaching firms and that has really worked well for me in terms of exposure, being able to coach across different cultures around the world.
So. That is where I'm I'm at now. It is exciting and I'm growing professionally. Also, my business is growing as well.
[00:20:19] Sue: One of the questions I often ask my coachees and I'm gonna put it to you and see what you make of this one is what do you believe that the world is calling you to step up to these days
[00:20:30] Adeyanju: to enlargement not holding back, lengthening my chords and strengthening my stakes. So it's expansion and not holding back.
[00:20:43] Sue: Wow. And have you got any thoughts about how you're going to accomplish that or what directions that might pull you in, in addition to what you've already told us?
[00:20:52] Adeyanju: So I see it in also speaking opportunities apart from coaching and [00:21:00]just building, a network of individuals. it was in 2020. I established a platform that also building and marketing and it's called professionals in motion. And it's really kind of like a community where professionals can come learn from one another and also from me and individuals that I bring onto the platform. So it's about people. Who knows that they were built for growth or development and they can come and join that platform.
[00:21:32] Sue: So you're taking steps in different ways to grow and expand both for yourself and your own capabilities. It strikes me as well as your business. Yes. So there's the self and the organizational sense of it. I also know you've grown in terms of a family and you've got twins. Am I right? Yes. two boys. Tell us about that.
[00:21:55] Adeyanju: Woo. I always say that if I could survive the first two and a half months after I had them, I can survive anything. Cuz one of them was not sleeping. He literally will be. All night, my sisters named him lantern, because if it was, as if he was missing out by sleeping and I would, and he would not fuss, he wasn't crying or anything, but his eyes were wide open and I would beg him. I remember one night I was sobbing. I opened the window. It was dark. I said, look out, see, was sleep at this time in this part of the world, we sleep at this time. Help me. And I, it was like, he really listened and two and a half months he started sleeping 11 to 5:00 AM, six hours straight. And that was, oh gosh, it was a huge relief cuz I love my sleep.
[00:22:50] Sue: I can imagine, when you don't get sleep with one child, it's harder, but when you have two to be looking after as well, it's probably double trouble.
[00:22:57] Adeyanju: Gosh, it was, it was tough.
[00:23:00] Sue: And what do you think your twin boys have taught you about life?
[00:23:04] Adeyanju: Oh, patience. They've taught me resilience and that we have an unending reservoir of love. They've taught me humor as well and acceptance, and the fact that the uniqueness in every single human being, cuz they are so diverse in terms of diet likes. And it is almost frustrating having to make different meals because one person doesn't eat this and the other person likes.
[00:23:33] Sue: I'm imagining our listeners are identifying with what you're describing there.
[00:23:38] Adeyanju: It seems almost like that expansion philosophy also works in the home too, where you have to be expansive in what people are looking for. If you were going back to give the young audience you some advice from now where you are in life, what would you give to your teenage self?
I would tell [00:24:00] Adeyanju don't stop dreaming, breathe. The life is a marathon and to embrace the journey fully and have fun. No regrets.
[00:24:11] Sue: It's been fun speaking to you today, to get a sense of how things are for you, how you've made that transition from corporate to being a coach. If people want to find out more about you and the work that you do, how might they do that?
[00:24:25] Adeyanju: Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. That is my primary abode and it's my full name. Adeyanju Olomola on LinkedIn. So easy to find there on Instagram. It's a mix of lightness and fun. And it's just me talking about what I love most food football family. And yes, I do talk about coaching. And my Instagram handle is at Dayon jewel, D E Y a N J U O.
[00:24:52] Sue: Wonderful. It's been lovely to speak to you today. I wish you well with the business as it goes forward. And that ambition to be expansive, maybe this podcast will help with that to expand your reach into other places as well, to tell your story to new audiences.
[00:25:07] Adeyanju: Thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Sue.
[00:25:10] Sue: It's been a pleasure speaking to you today. Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode with Adeyanju and I'd certainly encourage you to write down a list of your accomplishments. If you're having a day, when you doubt yourself, there is nothing like looking at evidence to prove that you can achieve things.
And if you've missed out on any of our earlier episodes, we've now got 75 episodes that you can find by going on over to our website@accesstoinspiration.org, you can also download a copy of our impact report there, which will tell you about the impact that this podcast has. Around the world next week, I'll be speaking to Susan Murphy, a broadcaster who's spent many years helping people to discover how they can communicate with an authentic voice. I hope you can join me then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him) Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale talks to Thomas Luther, CEO of Nevel, a green infrastructure company in Finland. He explains the concept of Sisu – the Finnish way of being and explains in the conversation how he embodies this approach in the way he leads the company.
Thomas was born in Finland and is happy father of five children and married to a wellness and yoga entrepreneur. He believes in wellbeing, positive change, and having a purpose driven career. Graduating in economics and engineering Thomas has been in leadership roles for 25 years in service businesses, logistics and sales, of which seven years were abroad. He believes that be a leader, deep subject knowledge is not a prerequisite. Connect with Thomas on LinkedIn
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report
This series is supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations. Find out more at https://squadcast.fm Key Quotes 'Sisu can be described as the Finnish way of being – it’s about having guts, being humble, can-do attitude, trusting people and it’s about stamina.'
'I want to ensure that what I do has an impact.'
'If can’t find the purpose, how can I lead? How can I make people passionate about it if I don’t believe it in myself.'
'When you look at companies, first is safety for people. Not only about physical safety. It’s also mental safety. You feel safe at work. You have good colleagues. You have a respectful culture.'
'I realised I could transform a company from being passive not growing, to one with a happy people culture, which was developing strategically.'
'My mission has to be to try to make people happy at work.'
'I had a dream with my wife to combine growth in business and growth as people, because you have to feel well to be successful.' Thomas Luther transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hello, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to episode 74 of access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can gain inspiration from people who may be unlike you. We hope their stories and insights enable you to transcend day to day challenges and to reflect on what you are capable of achieving. Well for regular listeners, you may have noticed we have some new intro music.
Our sound editor Matias sourced it from Miguel and Christian, the founders of a new company, Patagonia Soundtracks that are selling royalty free music. So we hope that you really like it. Now in our last episode, our guest was from Colombia. In this time we head to Northern Europe and to Finland. Thomas Luther is CEO of Nevel a green infrastructure company, and he's passionate about leading people, their business, and their customers to a more sustainable future. Welcome to the podcast, thomas.
[00:01:10] Thomas: Thank you, Sue. Great to meet you.
[00:01:12] Sue: It's great to speak to you today. And I know you're from Finland and maybe some of our listeners haven't been to Finland. I think you said there is a phrase is it Sisu, that describes being a Fin?
[00:01:24] Thomas: So Sisu it's S I S U so it's a word which doesn't have a direct translation actually, but you could describe it as the Finnish way of being it's about having guts, being humble, it's about can do attitude. It's about trusting people and it's about stamina. It's very hard to have, one specific word for it, but that's a combination of it. And it's the, I would say the national DNA of us fins.
[00:01:51] Sue: And do you think that that is related to nature in any way? Because it always strikes me that thins are very close to nature.
[00:01:58] Thomas: Yeah, good question. It is. I think that we're very kind of close to earth to start with coming from the universe downwards. And it's also very close to nature. I think a typical fin loves the nature in a sense you want to go to the forest? We have a lot of forest. We have another thousand lake as we're told to have. We actually have, I think 200,000 lakes.
[00:02:18] Sue: That sounds like a lot of mosquitoes in the summer.
[00:02:21] Thomas: Oh yeah. we hope not this summer that bad, but you do have them.
[00:02:25] Sue: And I know that you are particularly interested in sustainability and the environment, and that's part of your job as a leader.
[00:02:32] Thomas: Yes, it is. I think something changed for, let's say, five plus years ago. I think it started of what I do want to work with, what I don't want to work with. I wanted to ensure that, the stuff I do do has an impact. And it's not something like, I just decided overnight that this has to happen. It's something that came into me. I couldn't work for something, which I don't believe in.
I think that's something that has changed massively in younger years. It could have been a nice [00:03:00] leadership position, nice money, whatever, but the drivers are different in today's world. And when I work with what I do today, I, I remember my oldest daughter saying once that when I work with sustainability, dad, finally you do something proper and something good.
So I think that was a good way to think about it and really do genuinely believe in purpose driven stuff. And if I can't myself find the purpose, how can I lead? And how can I create the story? How can I make people passionate about it? If I don't believe it in myself.
[00:03:34] Sue: And what do you think was that turning point that changed your thinking into being much more purpose driven?
[00:03:41] Thomas: One could be age, you know, becoming more mature. One could be that I, I think I've passed the kind of biggest career aspirations already, and it's not career driven. And I think it's the world around us that also makes to change when you see what's happening.
[00:03:57] Sue: Well, there's certainly a lot of focus on the environment in the news of late.
[00:04:02] Thomas: Absolutely. And I think if you want to find a purpose driven job, I think the first thing to think about is what are the mega trends of the world. And if you're working with something, which is the mega trend, then you will for sure find a purpose and you can write your company and people through that.
[00:04:18] Sue: Now you're the CEO of Nevel what does that company do?
[00:04:22] Thomas: The name comes from next level. So we're doing next level utility infrastructure. And, what that means we own, operate, develop towards greener a big, it could be heat, steam, water, infrastructure assets. So we own the assets there on our balance sheet, but with our customers, We co-developed them towards greener. So, carbon free of course, big thing is circular economy. So for example, produce heat. We also see what we can do with the residuals. They can become fertilizers to the agriculture industry, for example, where, for example, in one case from poultry residuals, we are creating biogas and so forth. So really looking at the circular economy as well as part of it. And of course, carbon positive in the future.
[00:05:09] Sue: So how does the company measure success? I'm imagining it's not just financial success, correct?
[00:05:15] Thomas: ESG is actually very top on the agenda. And when I did my CEO interviews, before I joined, I checked and also the main owner and myself, we checked where I align on the ESG. I think that was extremely important because we are coming from an industry where we do combustion today to produce heat. How we move forward and with what technologies was really important in that aspect,
[00:05:39] Sue: just to clarify for the listener, that's not aware of what ESG is. Tell us what that is.
[00:05:44] Thomas: So, E for environmental is for social and G for governance. So environmental it's, I think in today's world, it's much more than only getting carbon neutral. I think that's what you have to already have on your agenda. It's the fundamental and the next [00:06:00] becomes biodiversity, circular economy inside it and so forth and recycling, everything that you reuse redevelop and all of that.
This is the social side. So I think the key things are there when you look at company first is safety for people, and I always want to add, it's not only about physical safety. It's about also about mental safety. You feel safe at work. You have good colleagues, you have a respectful cultures and so forth. It's not only about physical safety in today's world. The biggest issues in the world are more psychological than.
[00:06:35] Sue: That's an interesting point that you raise there around creating that psychological safety in a way within a workplace, as a leader, then Thomas, how do you set the tone for that at the top of the organization?
[00:06:47] Thomas: your spot on. I think it comes from a few things. First of course, how do I behave? And even how the board behaves. And then I want to always say that in the end, we are all people, people do most of the work today, and that will be the case in the future as well. And we have to respect each other and it's not only to be a leader that respects the subordinates in my world.
You know, 80% is positive and 20% is constructive. You have to go with the positive. Otherwise, the culture becomes very depressing, stressful. And in the end, even if you would perform people, can't take it psychologically. It becomes just too heavy.
[00:07:29] Sue: How does that psychological safety get engendered around the boardroom table? I know these days we're probably all working virtually, but if you're having that leadership team conversation, how do. Create that sense of psychological safety.
[00:07:44] Thomas: Excellent question as well. I think you have to have a kind of a leadership promises. What do you promise as a leader, as a leadership team, it could be value based. We promise to listen. We promise to respect and in good and bad times, you know, not all times are good and sometimes you need to do things which are not nice. And also in those cases, you need to respect people. And if they're not nice conversations. So I think these kind of leadership promises are very important. And then of course, how and what kind of a culture do you set in the meetings you have within the company? Is it about following agendas? Is it about listening to people, letting everybody talk, listening to different perspectives without starting massive arguments? But also understanding it's not nice and nicely every day. And you might come into debates and you have to get out of debates and find common understanding in the end.
[00:08:39] Sue: I sense a degree of calmness that you're exuding even in this conversation. Thomas, do you think that that has an impact on your people as well?
[00:08:47] Thomas: Good point. I think he does. And then funny enough, I'm said to be calm, I'm also very energetic, so I don't know how that goes together. I think it comes from the drive, which is beyond [00:09:00] there, but also being calm and in leadership and leading companies, I don't believe in this kind of extremely quick actions or sudden task forces of stuff. If you don't have to, of course, if you don't run into a serious crisis leadership and leading a company, it's about taking a long term perspective, understanding it takes time to get. And, but on the same time, having energy and keeping the drive up, I think it's an interesting mixture.
[00:09:27] Sue: So that question of drive leads me to, to take us back to your early part of your career Thomas. And when you were a young boy there in Finland, thinking about life ahead, what did you aspire to be when you grew up?
[00:09:40] Thomas: I think even when we met Sue first time for 10, 12 years ago, my thinking was I want to become a CEO of a massive listed company. I was very career driven. Yeah. I think that was the case. I thought that the career is not saying that family and friends at first for me and, and nowadays wellbeing, but I think at that time it was really about being a CEO of a massive listed company. For some reason, it was a kind of performance thing, I guess.
[00:10:03] Sue: And was that in your family? Did you have other people that you'd seen go there before you? Or where did that inspiration come from?
[00:10:10] Thomas: Yeah, I think it's slightly inherited, but also then learning from that, for example, my father, he didn't want in the end, by the way. Now, when you asked that I never thought about it. He had also, he took a career, but then he decided that stage at some stage that we will, he will just pause there. And stay certain levels. He, he decided then to take the, you know, family first perspective, maybe that's something actually, which is in back of my mind as well.
[00:10:34] Sue: So as you were then going through your career journey, what have been some of the highlights that you reflect on now that perhaps have shaped the way that you lead today?
[00:10:44] Thomas: Highlights are, I think there's a few, becuase I always think so positive. I can find highlights in lowlights. And I think one, when I was first time CEO that was in Finland, I think it was really that I could transform a company from being a passive, not growing. Maybe not extremely professionally led, not with a happy people. Culture. I could transform it into growth company, which was developing strategically. And, very importantly, the safety culture got better and the people satisfaction got massively better. I think a lot of my success stories when I'm satisfied myself comes not only from business success, but from people success.
My way of thinking is that people spend a lot of their lives or time of their lives at work. So also my mission has to be, to try to make people happy at work. I think then you do a good job and if people are okay at work or even happy at work, then you're done a good, you know, social job as well as a leader. That's how I look at life. Not only the business results
[00:11:49] Sue: sometimes our greatest learnings come from our biggest mistakes or our biggest failures. Thomas, I'm wondering if there are any of those less positive experiences that [00:12:00]you've had that you're now able to reframe and take some important learning from
[00:12:04] Thomas: there are. And I think some of the stuff learnings come from the, the fact that I've said a couple of times, that when I was younger, I was overly positive and overly empathetic. So what I've learned, not going to specifics. I used to say that I have a empathy pint it was a British pint a big pint and the empathy pint didn't fill up fast enough. And nowadays it's more like a schnapps glass. It's now it's a bit bigger. It's a coffee cup, but, That's my biggest learning that empathy cup has to be smaller because then in leadership roles, you have to react faster. If you see issues, you have to react faster and you have to understand also that it's a bit brutal to say, but not all people are genuine at work. They can be something different, but they might have different agendas at work. And maybe I was naive or too empathetic when I was younger and didn't understand those realities. So that's, I think the biggest learning, how big is your empathy cup?
[00:13:08] Sue: that's a lovely image you you've created for us there. And with that drive with that desire that you have, or had at the outset of your career to make it to the top of lead a company. I'm wondering what are some ways that you've stepped out of your own comfort zone in order to get there? You've talked about that developing appropriate level of empathy. Are there other ways that you've pushed yourself along the way?
[00:13:34] Thomas: Yeah, I think it comes a bit to the same again, it was really in the past of. Tough conversations with people and I've had to run also not nice procedures in my career when we've had to let a lot of people go and stuff like that out of my comfort zone things really. And I think the other one has been that I was quite, when I was 30 plus years, I had already really big leadership positions. It wasn't out of my comfort zone, but the environment was typically so that the management team, I was the youngest in the management team, even if I was the leader myself. So it wasn't like out of comfort zone, but it was something I really thought about. How does this person who is much older than me, much more senior. How do they see me as a leader? It wasn't that I wouldn't believe in myself. It was more to really think about the approach, how to approach that person and get the respect and the good working relationship going.
[00:14:34] Sue: So it sounds like it's the subtlety of communication. That's important in both of those examples, you've given us Thomas. . I see a lot of times people in all levels in organizations avoiding difficult conversations, how have you learned to do that? What sort of tips could you give to our listener? If they were finding it hard to have difficult conversations,
[00:14:56] Thomas: it comes with the word respect a lot. Also in [00:15:00] those communications, when you have that respect, the other person, try to understand their motives, try to understand them as an individual, do your homework. What kind of personality is it? How should they be approached? And I think it's really about that getting individual in those, in a sense, in a good sense individual, that you understand the person, but also understand the frame where we are working in and you have to understand, Hey, this conversation is not going to be ideal. So I think it's really the question of respect and preparation
[00:15:30] Sue: growth mindset is also another characteristic that I know has been described about how you show up Thomas. What for you is a growth mindset,
[00:15:40] Thomas: kind of in a sense, a downfall. Or a growth mindset. So it can be in between, but a very short time, then it starts to go down or then it starts to go up. I think it's like the word says, it's a mindset, but you have to believe in growth. You have to drive growth. You have to, of course enable growth to people. But I think being in a company. Where you don't have growth mindset or you don't look to build growth mindset. It's not going to keep people motivated either.
And when I say growth, you know, if you go to a blue collar worker who works in a, you know, factor doing a day to day, maybe more simple job. It's not like they're gonna be, Hey, we're a growth company. A, they don't care about net sales or, or profitability. But I think for them, you need to have to find the ways of how people perceive growth.
What does it mean to them? Which things are important and then reflect based on that. I think it's naive to think that yes, we talk about growth and we try to address all the people in a big company in the same way. It's not gonna work. What a leader is interested in growth. The blue collar is not gonna be interested in same things.
[00:16:47] Sue: It strikes me that in the world today, there's a kind of assumption that growth is good. Is growth ever bad?
[00:16:55] Thomas: I think growth is always good. As long as you understand what the will of the owners is. And as long as. Define growth, what you want it to be, then I think it's good. I think it's a good question that you grow in sales. For example, you might grow within your customer position, or you might grow as with your competencies in the company. You might grow strategically. I would maybe say that I think growth is needed when you talk businesses, what type of growth it is. I think that's the question and that you have to define cos sometimes you are in a business where it's simply best just to grow financially, the top line growth and some in some businesses where you need to do transformation. So I think it's not necessarily only financials. I think that's the point.
[00:17:45] Sue: And if you're enjoying this episode, you might also want to listen to other leadership. In our back catalog. In episode 8 I spoke to Lauren Vaitkus who is leading the way in the cruise industry. And in episode 28, [00:18:00] I spoke to Vinay Chandra. Who's an entrepreneur from India and told us all about his relentless optimism. Go on over to access to inspiration.org. And you can listen there or read all the transcriptions. Now back to this episode.
You also mentioned a moment ago about taking a long term view for a business success and having patience in a way that the growth does take time or getting to your goals takes time. What's your timeline currently for the growth of the business you're in? Are you looking 20 years ahead is growth three years. What's your time skill? I
[00:18:39] Thomas: like that question. I think a company should find the right direction for the first. I talk less about strategy. I talk about direction because the world is changing so much in today's world that I think you can't define easily a strategy 10 years ahead. This is what we're going to look like in 10 years. I think that's unrealistic. We've seen what's happened now last few years, but what I do like instead is that you get the big picture, right? You take the long term vision. Hey, this is about what we wanna look like this. About size of growth. You paint a picture and it's like a funnel. You see something quite wide and aspirational say 10 years ahead, but then it kind of gets more narrow. The closer we are today, and the actions you take today this year, and maybe next year needs to be quite defined, but they need, need to have a possibility to adapt cuz the world changes as we've. It's a long term vision. Then you take a kind of future back thinking you come back to today's world and start to think what you need to do today that you achieve kind of that future state gradually.
[00:19:43] Sue: And with short term actions towards the long term vision, when there are demands or pressures from outside parties to change direction or add in additional areas, how do you keep the focus?
[00:19:56] Thomas: I think that's, if it's a sudden thing that happens in your surroundings, like COVID was the war that Russia started against Ukraine. I think those are things where you need to then act fast. And even if I said in the start, I don't believe in task forces or this kind of a rapid changes in these cases I do.
Then you would set up of course, weekly meetings and, and these kind of forums, how to deal with that. But then if we come to the more longer term development, then I think you have to have a structure, a leadership where working and this kind of business rhythm, what you do every year, every month. And then you just need to get that change into that cycle.
[00:20:35] Sue: You bring up an important point, Thomas, around the more recent behavior of your neighbor, country, and the impact that that may have on Finland and where it's getting its heat and power from. Does that impact your business?
[00:20:48] Thomas: Yeah, I think it impacts more or less all Finnish businesses. Finland is again taking a small store. We were in our, our term successful in the second world war and we kept our [00:21:00] independence. That was a win. But after that, we were obliged to pay to our Eastern neighbor and, and we started to create, build our industry based on that. Actually the Finnish industry started after the second world war and the Finnish success came based on the fact that we had to deliver stuff to, to our Eastern neighbor. Funny enough. And I think that sits in our DNA. We've always balanced between the relationships to Russia versus being a very Western developed country, highly digitalized, high technology. And all that. Now it's changed. You know, we are entering NATO, which is a big thing here. And then also what it does to the companies. We have a lot of companies who are having businesses in, in Russia, and a lot of companies has exited. That business left factories there left big businesses. And I think we're now seeing this happen, unfortunately. So leading a business can be demanding making these decisions, being aware of what's happening globally and how that impacts your company.
[00:21:57] Sue: How do you then relax and recover? How do you take time out?
[00:22:00] Thomas: I think again, always seem to come with a story here, but I think something happened when I turned 40 about ish. I think about five plus years ago, I just realized that life is not only about work. And then I took a general guidance to myself that wellbeing is key. I'm not a, you know, single sports guy that I would have a single sport or single aim. I just want to feel well. And wellness comes from friends and it comes from family and physical and mental wellbeing. It's a combin. I think you can't just do one thing and say that you are happy of those.
What I do is I'm, lucky to have a yoga teacher as a wife and a wellness teacher. So I do yoga two, three times a week. I'm not very agile, basically. Mentally. Yes. But I do yoga then I do. I want also balancing that I do boxing mountain biking, walking, running, of course, being out on the sea, swimming, ice, diving, many things. I just like to do many things. I don't have a single way. And it's more like a, I don't have really big routines on that. The more important thing is that I do something for myself.
[00:23:15] Sue: And what is the work life balance culture like in Finland?
[00:23:19] Thomas: I think it's getting better. I think also the, the unfortunate thing COVID, it's helped a lot. It's more accepted even if, as a CEO, I could do whatever I want in theory, but it's also this mental acceptance has changed that, like I told you today, I'm working from distant and from my boat being a British boat, and this is this Monday it's sunny outside. I will work. I will go out for lunch. In the town to meet my colleagues and back to the boat. And then it's, I think that's important thing that you can adapt better in today's world.
[00:23:53] Sue: Mm-hmm that sounds great. Another point you just made there promise. I'm curious to discuss and help our [00:24:00] listeners learn about the reality of the impact that technology has in Finland. What are your lives like? It just seems that you're always miles ahead with technology.
[00:24:08] Thomas: Yeah, I think it's just amazing how digital Finland is. I remember I had to visit the bank half a year ago. I haven't been to the bank for two, three years. The reason we had to go to a bank physically was that my two, I have five children, but my two oldest daughters, they needed to have a bank account or actually digital IDs.
And, for that, you have to go physically to the bank to show your face. And it felt so annoying, but at then I understood it. You have to do that, cos actually again, the, the bank codes you have in Finland, your personal bank codes there, your digital ID today, you do everything. Digitally government taxes, applications, you name it and you always use your bank codes and ideas. So it's kind your digital ID and signature. So that's the reason I had to go to this bank. so maybe it reflects the digital level of Finland and it's really extremely digitalized.
[00:25:06] Sue: So given that our podcast is called access to inspiration. Thomas, who or what inspires you?
[00:25:12] Thomas: I think I'm inspired about good people who do good stuff. I think it's a bit a vague statement then I'm inspired about good leaders. Because, like I said earlier, I think good leaders create also happy people in the big context. And that's important. I've never had somebody ask, who do you look up to? Or who do you admire? I don't really have those people. It's it could be a bunch of people in different situations like I said,
[00:25:40] Sue: And do you get your inspiration, your learning from reading articles, books, speaking to people, I guess, how do you source that inspiration?
[00:25:50] Thomas: Yeah. I used to read a lot, but that I had a pause on that of some reason, but what I do, I'm very networked to other CEOs and board members. Then also being an active board member in different boards and working at, in advisory roles.
I think that gives a lot of perspective to me. Then I do listen to audio books. I have a single way. It's networking board memberships being a CEO, going to different courses, different seminars. So I don't have a, you know, specific dream of doing an MBA for example, which could be great, but it's not my thing.
[00:26:22] Sue: And just looking ahead into the future, if you were looking 10, 20 years down the line for yourself, we've talked about your business. What would be in your vision for your long term? I know it.
[00:26:35] Thomas: So I've been always clear that I enjoy working with different companies and different people. So let's see, I stated here with Sue online, let's see what happens in LinkedIn in 10 years time. But my aspiration is not to work operationally anymore in maximum 10 years time. So it's then about board memberships, advisory jobs, maybe some kind of light consultative work [00:27:00]with different companies. I would have a base for that already, but, then also enjoy working operationally still, but that's my target.
[00:27:08] Sue: And maybe there'll be a few more advanced yoga pauses that you can do by then as well.
[00:27:12] Thomas: Absolutely. And we've even had a dream with my wife to combine this kind of a growth in business and growth as people. You have to do feel well to be successful.
[00:27:23] Sue: Well, I think that's what you've given us today in this conversation, Thomas, a sense of wellbeing from a leadership perspective, what is the combination of financial, social and environmental focus for a leader and perhaps how also your country has shaped how you lead. If, if there was a question that you would want to leave in the listener's mind to prompt them to think about some of the things you've explored today, what would that question be?
[00:27:54] Thomas: If the listener would be a leader, we take that assumption. I would just ask a simple question and challenge. What type of leader do you want to be?
[00:28:04] Sue: Well, there's a great question for everyone to ponder and reflect upon even those that are not leading other people, but leading themselves.
[00:28:12] Thomas: Absolutely. And I think that's a good add on, and I think it's a simple question. But you can put a lot of thought behind that.
[00:28:21] Sue: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your time today, Thomas. It's been great speaking with you. If the listeners want to follow up, is LinkedIn the best way to find you?
[00:28:30] Thomas: That's the best way to find me? Yes.
[00:28:32] Sue: Well, I hope you enjoy your day on the boat and it's been lovely to have conversation with you today. Thank you for your time.
[00:28:39] Thomas: Thank you, sue. It's been a pleasure as always.
[00:28:43] Sue: Well, thanks a lot to Thomas Luther for sharing his insights with. I do think that he embodied the essence of Sisu in what he said. Remember, you can help us out by telling other people about this podcast. We are a not-for-profit venture. So we do rely on your Goodwill and support to help us reach a wider audience around the world. You can find all the episodes on the website, access to inspiration.org or on apple podcasts, Spotify, and many other podcast platforms. Remember, you can also connect with us in. We're on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn.
Next week, my guest is Adeyanju Olomola from Nigeria who will be here to explain to me what imposter syndrome is and how she overcame it. I hope you can join us then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him) Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale talks to Colombian entrepreneur Manuela Gil, majority owner of Vivaldi Ingenieria Hospitalaria, about how she transformed the family business by building a company driven by purpose. She talks openly about how she overcame her fear of losing control, why you need to listen to your heart, and how engaging clients and employees in conversations about purpose brings about unexpected outcomes.
Manuela is married with two children and moved back to Colombia having worked and studied in Germany for several years. She balances her roles of mother, entrepreneur, and CFO of the business, with making time to invest in her own development. Manuela's driving force is “be a lighthouse of inspiration, hope and empowerment by walking and showing new and outstanding paths’.
Find out more at the website : LinkedIn : Instagram : Facebook Key Quotes: 'I had a feeling I could give more and have a positive impact on society'.
'I would never change going into a family business. If you find yourself there, I think it's a beautiful path'.
'Colombia doesn't produce medical devices, so we import the devices, and distribute them. It’s more than just selling; we find the solutions that clients can use in order to care for life or save lives'.
‘I started to recognize that one of my biggest points of work in life is in trust’.
‘When I feel fear, I express this fear in wanting to control so wanting to put everything in place, to plan and secure everything.’
'Starting to work on myself was giving me a better understanding of balancing life.'
‘We want to bring this harmony and this balance to our customers.’
‘I realised my driving force, or my purpose had not been connected with the purpose of the business’.
‘Our central point in our customer experience is inspired transformation’.
This series is supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations. Find out more at https://squadcast.fm
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him) Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her) Manuela Gil transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to episode 73 of the access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can gain inspiration from people who may be unlike. We hope their stories and insights enable you to transcend your day to day challenges and reflect on what you are capable of achieving. Today. I'm talking to Manuela Gil, majority owner of Vivaldi, a company based in Colombia. She explains to me what happened when she went back from working in Germany, back to Colombia to take over the family business and transformed it by engaging the team, her clients and herself in the process of focusing on purpose. Now, if you want to read this as well as listen to it, you can do that by hopping over to our website, access to inspiration.org, and you'll find transcriptions for this episode and all our other episodes there as well. Welcome to the podcast. Manuela Gil. It's great to speak to you today. I think you're in Colombia is that correct?
[00:01:14] Manuela: Yes, that's correct Sue thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here now.
[00:01:18] Sue: Colombia has it always been your home or were you born and brought up elsewhere?
[00:01:22] Manuela: I was born here in Medellin, Colombia and I lived in Germany for eight years.
[00:01:28] Sue: And in terms of going back to Colombia what took you back there from Germany?
[00:01:33] Manuela: It was always my dream to go abroad, to learn another languages and also to experience another cultures. And I went to Germany and I really like it a lot. I got married with a German guy. I have my first daughter there and I started to work as well there as a process engineer. But when I finished my studies at university. I always dreamed to go back to Colombia so I feel that I have got a lot from life and a lot of beautiful things. And then my feeling was I want to go back to Colombia to give back everything what I have received. It was very good. I was in a very good situation, but I had the feeling that I could give more to co build the society or to have a positive impact in the society. And in Germany with my job, I was feeling that it was not the place for that. And that's why I was looking to come to Colombia again.
[00:02:30] Sue: So what business did you go into?
[00:02:33] Manuela: my family. They have been working in the health sector since my grand grandfather. So my grand grandfather was a very important doctor in my city. During that time, all the family were inside that and my father had started a business in 2001 with medical devices. And then he said to me, and to my husband come with me and work with me and I want to invite you. And also when I was at [00:03:00] university, I was dreaming to have my own business. And then he was saying, come to me and then he invited us.
[00:03:06] Sue: Was it more difficult perhaps than being employed by another company?
[00:03:10] Manuela: Yeah. this is a difficult question. It's difficult to compare. In a way, of course it's easy to be an employee, I believe in a way, because there are a lot of things that you don't have to worry about when you have your own company. But now that I see my path already, since 2013, when I came back to Colombia to work with my father, I think it's a beautiful way. And I would never change going into a family business. If you find yourself there, I think it is a beautiful path.
[00:03:43] Sue: What does the business do? You mentioned medical devices. Tell me more about what it involves.
[00:03:48] Manuela: So we are in the healthcare industry in Colombia and also we are starting to be international or more like regional in Latin America. And what we do is we have conversations with our clients or with our customers to find their necessities regarding solutions in biomedical technology or medical devices. And then we solve these solutions. So we bring the solutions to them regarding medical devices in Colombia we don't produce medical devices. So we import the devices and we distribute. But more than just selling, we find the solutions that they really can use in order to care for life or save lives.
[00:04:31] Sue: So how would that play out in, in real life, so to speak?
[00:04:35] Manuela: Okay. So let's talk about automatic defibrillators. I think this is the name in English, in countries like Germany or USA or in Europe is already very advanced, but this started in Colombia only few years ago. What we do is that we import the devices, the EADs from Germany or from Korea. This is where we have our suppliers. And then what we do is we do a solution out of it. So we study the customer. So let's say a mall or, or an airport. And then we study and we see where you should put this EAD in order, when you have a heart attack that they can act immediately.
And then the time that you have to cover is going to be less than three minutes. And then we study the customer and we say, okay, we should put them in this location or in this location. And then after. We put them in a case and also with all the signage that the people can find this device. And then we do training and then afterwards we do maintenance and then we offer this solution that a customer, they can buy the solution and then every year we go to them and do maintenance or training, or also what we do is we do like a renting. And then we take care of it. This is one example.
[00:05:57] Sue: it's more of a broad [00:06:00] solution that you're able to provide rather than the airport or the mall going to the original equipment manufacturer. You're able to add an advantage by looking at a solution in a different way.
[00:06:11] Manuela: Yes. And for example, last week I was talking with one of our customers. This is the Metro of Medellin. And then he was saying, for me, it's totally difficult just to buy the device. If I just only buy the device, this is going to be very difficult for me to manage everything because I have to take care of all the emergency or security of the Metro. I need a provider that is really solving for me everything. So I just needed that. You just put it to me and then that you solve it for me. So we want to make it easier, simple for our customers.
[00:06:46] Sue: What is your role in the business?
[00:06:48] Manuela: This was one of the points that changed. Let's say after the lowest point after my, like the challenges in almost 10 years, and I have now two roles, I have one role inside, very like a manager as a CFO and more in controlling financing administration. And I have the role as entrepreneur. So I have these two roles and it's very interesting.
[00:07:17] Sue: they're quite different in some ways.
[00:07:19] Manuela: Yes. Yes.
[00:07:20] Sue: Seeing the financial logical administrative activity sounds that it's playing to perhaps one part of your brain and the entrepreneurial, maybe creative risk taker, perhaps
[00:07:33] Manuela: yes.
[00:07:33] Sue: Is got a different perspective. Would that be a fair thing to say?
[00:07:37] Manuela: Yes. It's very different perspective because in the financial or administrative is very rational is let's say very. the energy is very masculine you have to plan and you have to be very focused in your plan and also is inside the company. And when you work as entrepreneur, it is more creative. It's more fluently. The energy that you play there is more feminine and your product is the company. So inside the company, your product is what you do for your customers. But outside as entrepreneur, what you are creating, there is a company or a business, and this is your product
[00:08:18] Sue: because you've got two roles. I'm wondering if there's one, you enjoy more than the other.
[00:08:25] Manuela: this. Okay. So when I enjoy more. The entrepreneur, but I have to be very focused in the trust. Trusting in life because you have to be really in the flow and, and to feel and to experience. And in the other role, I also enjoy it. I believe is more simple for me. And it's easier for me. The operative role is easier for me to do it, but this is because, uh, the masculine energy is very is very high in me. And the other energy, I [00:09:00] am bringing it more in balance. So it's also very high by am bringing both more in balance so it's very interesting.
[00:09:08] Sue: you're the first guest in one of our podcasts that's talked about feminine and masculine energies. I'm wondering, how did you even become aware of these energies in the first place?
[00:09:19] Manuela: Well, this has been really a journey to become aware of that. Since I got my first kid I have been working a lot in myself. So getting to know me, this is already is going to be 10 years in one month. I think the journey it has been inside me, really getting to know what are my emotions? Why do I feel how I feel? Why do I react? How I react working in my daily habits with energy, for work, and also for my family. And then in this journey, I started to recognize that one of my biggest points of work in life is in trust. So very easily I get fear. And this is one of the discoveries I have done during this journey. And this fear, I express this fear in wanting to control. So wanting to put everything in place to plan, to make plans, to say, okay, I'm going to do this tomorrow. And later on, I'm going to do this. And in this way, I tried to secure everything. And then just recognizing this fear and looking or seeing how I'm trying to control the fear. Then I discovered that I was controlling and I was planning and that it was easy for me to achieve goals and to achieve what I wanted to achieve. And from the holistic point of view, I discovered that this is mainly from the masculine energy, not the fear, but the planning and the structure and the methodology, and that it was more difficult for me to flow with the life and the day by day and just being in the present. And then also this journey, I discovered this was more feminine energy and then in this way, I got aware of this.
[00:11:07] Sue: I noticed that you said you began to work on your own inner adventure when you'd had your first child. And I'm wondering if it was becoming a parent, was that a trigger for doing this inner work?
[00:11:18] Manuela: It was, I think it was a trigger when I got my first child, I was in Germany, so I got one year maternity leave and then I found myself in Germany in a winter without my family, all my friends were at work and my husband was working all day. And I was with a little baby and all this person that is wanting to plan every second of her life found herself in the nothing. Just being in the moment that you have to be just to just take care of a child, what is beautiful, but it was really a challenge for me to let go all these plans and all the structure or the methodology. And then [00:12:00]it was really like a trigger for myself to say, no, I need to, to work in myself.
[00:12:05] Sue: Once you realized that for yourself and you began to work on yourself and then you moved back into Colombia to work on the family business. How did your thinking and your approach then shape what you've been doing inside the business?
[00:12:21] Manuela: Well, at the beginning, when I started in the business, I started really from basic things. So I started and my father, he was needing someone that works in the administrative and finances. So he was just teaching me every single step. It was at that time, a very small business. So we were, my husband came with me and he started to work also with us. And we were with him seven people probably. So it was very small and also was very important to be with my daughter. And to have some time for working and to organize my time and be with my daughter. And I think this starting to work in myself, it was giving me a better understanding of balancing the life. So it's fine to be at work. It's fine to be with my daughter and I, I need to balance. And then when my second child came it became stronger, the need to work in myself. And also after my second child was born three years after, my father, he left the operations of the company. He's still working with us in a way, but he left the company, the, all the operations, and then it really became a challenge.
[00:13:36] Sue: So, how did you overcome that challenge?
[00:13:38] Manuela: Yes, I think it was very interesting. The habits that I was developing, so doing a sports regularly, meditating, having a person with whom I could talk and doing mental coaching, I call it like this and these habits were very, very important for me . And also I was doing a diary every day. These were very important for me to overcome the challenges that came when my father left. And I was having two children, one with six years and the other one with four,
[00:14:11] Sue: I get this picture of trying to balance. Your life as a mother, two young children, a business where your father then steps out from the operational area. I'm also imagining your aspirations, perhaps for growth for the company and all of this to manage with these habits that you've been developing. This discipline to have the work life balance. It sounds to me like those were some of the things that have helped you to move through these challenges. And beyond.
[00:14:41] Manuela: Yes, that's true.
[00:14:42] Sue: Also, just I'm curious, I see that your company's name is Vivaldi. Is that the reason you describe it? You describe it as composing harmonious solutions with biomedical technology. I'm wondering if that relates back to this being in balance and in harmony.
[00:14:58] Manuela: Yes. And [00:15:00] it's a very interesting story. So when my father step away we had the end of 2018 and 2000 nineteens were very difficult years for the company. And in 2020, I was really wondering, okay, what are we going to do? Do we go back to Germany?
Are we closing? What do we do? And then I think I went to Egypt to a trip of woman entrepreneurs. And I believe during this trip, I crossed the fear of staying without nothing and going back to Germany and closing everything. And when I crossed that fear, everything has started to change. Let's say I crossed the fear inside myself and I thought, okay, it doesn't matter what happened. It's fine. It's a situation from what I'm going to learn for my life. But really, it's very easy to say it in words, and also to think it, but really going through that with your emotions and all what you are is the difficult part . And when I went through that everything has started to change. And then we started to think, okay, why do we do what we do? What is behind that? What do we want really to add to our community and to our customers. And then at that time, I started also to think, I believe that my company has a very strong soul and I don't want that the company is depending from a person or from some people. Then we started to go through all those questions and with a group of people that work on that they helped us.
And we found this name for Vivaldi. So before the name was in Ingenerios Hospitalaria and this was the name with my father, founded the company. And then we realize during all these questions that actually we want to live in harmony and we want to bring this harmony and this balance to also to our customers. And at that moment we found that name for the company, Vivaldi. Because first Vivaldi is a name of a musician, a very famous one, and we are very near to music. My husband is a musician, so we found that this name is very nice from also our background. Also it brings the harmony and the balance that we want to bring. And also from the name, Viva is very near to vida in Spanish and we found this name can really bring us what we are.
[00:17:31] Sue: How have your customers responded to the story behind the new company.
[00:17:36] Manuela: It's very interesting. We started the process in 2020, in 2021 at the beginning, we found the name and we started the process of showing the new name and also presenting it by the end of 20 21. And since then I have been having a lot of conversations from my entrepreneur role with the customers, presenting the [00:18:00] philosophy and the name, and also having very intense conversations. So really going in the why, why they are doing what they are doing. And these conversations are wonderful because you start really to get to know why your customers are doing what they are doing, which needs they really are having. And which problems are they facing to take care for lives or to save lives? And this is the name. So presenting the name. They really like it. They are responding in a great way. And just more behind that or beyond that, having the conversations is giving you connection with the customers.
[00:18:40] Sue: So understanding the, the bigger purpose for your customers and them understanding your bigger purpose is leading to more meaningful conversations. And I imagine more business for you as.
[00:18:52] Manuela: Yes, and it's incredible. So I'm having these conversations and I'm going to them and I am not expecting to do anything with business. I'm just telling them, you know what I want to get to know you better to serve you better. Let me present our new name and what is behind that. And in order to serve you more, I want to make you some questions. I don't want to do anything with business. And they look at you like what okay. And then I start to do the questions and they are so happy to share. And at the end they always say, okay, I didn't expect this conversation. Sometimes they say, okay, you only have half an hour for you. And at the end they give you, I don't know, one hour and a half on two hours. And all the opportunities are coming at the end and you have a pool of opportunities, but I'm not going with that expectation.
[00:19:43] Sue: When you connect with the person, that human being level, you really get to know them and the organization at a much deeper level. So I suppose that makes good business sense.
[00:19:53] Manuela: Yes, it is like that.
[00:19:55] Sue: I know that you mentioned at the outset that you moved back to Colombia because you felt you would have a greater impact on the community society at large. How do you measure that?
[00:20:04] Manuela: This is still something for me to solve at the beginning, I was very focused only in employees. And this was because I was not really connected with the sense of the business. So my driving force or my purpose was not connected with the purpose of the business. And then for me, the bigger impact, it was only giving employment. And also this was one of the things that when we got the difficult time, when my father left was one of the things that changed completely, because I realized at that time that I was giving employment as a mother, and this was terrible. So you cannot do that. That's why I also stepped out from general manager because this is something in my personality that I have to work on it. So I was not the perfect person to [00:21:00] be the general manager of my company. And then after overcoming these challenges, then I found this last three years it was like the journey of finding how my purpose is connected really to the purpose of my company. And I already found it, which is great. And I know that we have impact in the community with the solutions that we give. For example, in emergency, I was just telling you, because this is a big impact. If you can save a life. from a person just by teaching. This is giving impact in the community, but I'm not measuring so far. That's why I'm saying this is still to be solved. I'm in the journey to solve that. How I'm going to measure the impact in the community.
[00:21:48] Sue: You also mentioned about how you have engaged with your employees. What approaches do you take with your employees to help them to have a better sense of connection to the bigger purpose?
[00:21:58] Manuela: Well, when we started with the name of Vivaldi. We also said, okay, we need also to connect with the purpose of the employees and we need that their purpose is connected to the company. And how I'm doing in it now is having also these type of conversations that we are having with the customers. Very similar. So going a lot into the why also so we are a company, this is small more or less twenty people is not, it's a small company still, and we are working a lot with holistic solutions. So we make some trainings in which ones are your beliefs or which ones is your purpose, or we have these conversations.
[00:22:43] Sue: So in addition to your own inner adventure, your employees are going on their own inner adventure too.
[00:22:49] Manuela: Yes.
[00:22:50] Sue: get, get a sense, a better sense of their, why
[00:22:53] Manuela: may I say something there? Our central point in our customer experience is inspired transformation.
[00:23:01] Sue: I love it. Well, that certainly resonates with us here at the access to inspiration podcast. Of course, inspired transformation, I guess could often mean a pull, we get inspired because we are pulled towards something as opposed to push we're not pushing people to be inspired. We're pulling them to be inspired. How was a leader just in terms of your own leadership style, Manuela how would you describe. What that's like to the listener. If they were to observe you as a leader, how are you creating that inspiration?
[00:23:33] Manuela: I'm not pushing. And that's why when my father step away, it was not working because the people that we were having there, it was people that needed to be pushed. And what I'm doing now is really offering the time to have conversations. So these conversations are open to everyone, so really having conversations and deep conversations and also uncomfortable conversations with [00:24:00] questions with going back and asking and making them reflect. Also when now I'm the leader of one people or two people in my team, in the operation team, what I'm doing is that they are really going through their work and what I'm being there is observing. And looking at what they are doing and making questions that they can reflect what they are doing and what they want to achieve. We also make meetings every three months to observe how was our development in the last three months? And in these three months we make some agreements at the beginning. And then at the end we do an evaluation of that. And we have this for all the company. And this evaluation is not only in objectives, clear, clear objectives, but also in the development that the person is having as a person. And this is through conversation
[00:24:56] Sue: and with those conversations and the difficult conversations that you described that you have been having, did anybody then choose to not continue with the journey? Because it, their values weren't in alignment with the organisation?
[00:25:08] Manuela: Yes. We have some people that they are stopping the, for them, they are saying, no, this is I don't want to go inside more or less.
[00:25:19] Sue: Yeah. So it, it can weed out as much those that don't want to go on that journey as it does identify those that do.
[00:25:27] Manuela: Yes. It's easy for us to identify who wants to go on their journey and who wants not to continue. And also it comes to a point that we can identify that, but they also, by themselves, they identify that as well. And one thing that we want to start in this awareness or in this kind of journey is to bring education more like in awareness. So just not the type of education, just like a mother or just a training in some heart stuff. We want to bring education in really questioning yourself about life.
[00:26:05] Sue: So it, it sounds like that when you're focusing on people and you're focusing on purpose, actually those two things are generating profit. Yes. I understand Manuela that you went on a program with vital voices and that, that was quite impactful in your own journey. What was that all about?
[00:26:22] Manuela: Yes. So Vital Voices is a non profit organization in USA and they give voice to women all around the world and they have different programs. In 2018, when was starting the, the part of the difficult journey I was selected to be in this program. It was a fellowship for one year, one year training. And I describe this program for me to be a catapult. It was because they were really focusing in the driving force of the entrepreneur that you find that out, which one is your driving [00:27:00]force. And if you are leaving your driving force or your purpose in your daily life basis or in your business, and if not, how you can do that. And this was very impact starting to take from that way. And also the networking. I named the networking because I'm here today with you Sue, because of that, imagine 2018, we are in 2022. And all the journey has started there.
[00:27:27] Sue: Wonderful. It certainly has been very impactful. And in terms of going forward with the business, what are your ambitions? Where do you see it heading in the future?
[00:27:35] Manuela: I'm following, uh, German methodology, like how you live as entrepreneur. And this is a German methodology that someone is bringing since I more or less, 20 years. And I found it very interesting because it focuses in, in all your life. Not only focuses in your life as entrepreneur so you have to focus in all areas of your life and in each area is continue developing yourself. And I mean, by this, I will just name the areas in personal development. So you as a person, your energy and your health, your emotions, and joy in life, your family, being entrepreneur, network and friends, finances, and world, and contribution. And I'm naming that because you are asking me how you are heading forward, what are you doing? And I want to grow in all areas. So I want to be really a professional entrepreneur. So we are have plans for us to continue growing our company to really measure the impact that we are having in the community and to bring more solutions in the community. But for me, it's very important also growing in all areas that I mentioned before. And more that growing as a goal, my biggest goal is being in the present
[00:28:57] Sue: well, I think you've certainly given us that sense today in the conversation, Manuela that you are in the present here, giving us all the wealth of your wisdom and insight to date. If there was one piece of advice that you would offer to our listener who may want to go on their own inner adventure, what would be the advice you would offer?
[00:29:17] Manuela: To connect with your heart. I think this will be the advice that I will give to find ways to connect with your heart, because I think the heart has a lot of answers that we don't hear and to connect with your intuition. And I think when you start to do that, the answers are coming and the path it will be there.
[00:29:37] Sue: Well, it's wonderful. And I really get the sense from how you've shared with us today that you've brought your heart to our conversation today. It's been lovely to speak with you Manuela. If our listener wants to find out more about you and Vivaldi, how might they do that?
[00:29:52] Manuela: You can find us in a website vivaldi.com.co also in [00:30:00] LinkedIn, you can find as Vivaldi Ingeniería Hospitalaria and for me in LinkedIn Manuela Gil de Tobar.
[00:30:08] Sue: we'll put links to all of those connections onto the show notes from today, and I wish you well on your inner and outer adventure in the future for the business and for yourself, its been lovely to speak to you.
[00:30:20] Manuela: Thank you, Sue It was also. Lovely.
I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Manuela, what passion she brought to the topic of purposeful leadership. And she certainly is living that in practice. Next week, we will go from Colombia over to Finland where my guest will be Thomas Luther, a CEO working there. So I hope you can join us again next week.
Sue Stockdale talks to Dr Paul J. Zak about how neuroscience can help podcasters, entertainment companies and employers to measure what the brain loves, and why that’s important. Paul is a professor of economics, psychology and management at Claremont Graduate University and is ranked in the top 0.3% of most cited scientists with over 170 published papers and more than 18,000 citations. Paul’s two decades of research have taken him from the Pentagon to Fortune 50 boardrooms to the rainforest of Papua New Guinea.
Along the way he helped start several interdisciplinary fields such as neuroeconomics, neuromanagement, and neuromarketing. He is a regular TED speaker and is author of a number of books including forthcoming title Immersion: the science of the extraordinary and the source of happiness, due for release in summer 2022.
A four-time tech entrepreneur, his most recent company Immersion Neuroscience is a software platform that allows anyone to measure what the brain loves in real-time to improve outcomes in entertainment, education and training, advertising and live events. Paul frequently appears in the media in such places as Good Morning America, Dr. Phil, Fox & Friends, ABC Evening News, and his work has been reported in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Time, The Economist, Scientific American, Fast Company, Forbes, and various podcasts.
Find out more at www.getimmersion.com : https://pauljzak.com : Twitter : LinkedIn
Key Quotes: ‘Your brain is a super lazy organ because it takes so much energy to run that it really just wants to idle most of the time.’
‘Immersion is this neurologic state in which people have extraordinary experiences.’
‘The brain is modulating energy flow all the time. And so, it's never just on 100%.’
‘People actually learn better in groups than they do singly, whether that's in-person one-to-one or in asynchronous remote settings.’
‘Psychological safety basically means - am I relaxed enough in this setting that I have enough space in my brain to be immersed? If I'm not, I'm not ready to learn.’
‘I think of immersion as a kind of neural prosthetic. It gives me this sort of superpower where I can be more effective as a social creature.’
‘In the animal literature there was a very rich vein of growing neuroscience, identifying oxytocin as a signal that a member of your species is safe or familiar.’
‘Employees who have stronger social connections at work are more productive. They enjoy their jobs more and we've shown, they shed the stress of work more rapidly when the workday's over.’
‘We've shown in experiments when leaders articulate the social purpose of work, people put in so much more discretionary effort, because we're helping the world. And that's what social creatures generally want to do.’
“The arc of all my professional work has been creating knowledge and technologies to increase happiness in the world at the individual level, at the organizational level, the societal level.’
This series is supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations. Find out more at squadcast.fm
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report
Paul Zak transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hello, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to the access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can be inspired by people who may be unlike you. We hope their experiences cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and make you think. Well, I'm delighted to welcome as our guest for this opening episode in series 10, Dr. Paul J. Zak. Paul is a professor of economics, psychology and management, a five time TED speaker and a tech founder. In fact, his latest venture is called immersion neuroscience, a software platform that allows anyone to measure what the brain loves in real time to improve outcomes in entertainment, training, and advertising. And he's putting this to the test whilst we are recording this podcast to discover if there are any moments of immersion during our conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Paul,
[00:01:09] Paul: thank you, Sue.
[00:01:10] Sue: Now as a neuroscientist, you research extraordinary experiences. Paul, what one stands out for you in your life so far?
[00:01:18] Paul: I would say speaking at Ted was absolutely a peak experience. And to be on the stage in Edinburgh to speak on the last full day, the last session in American baseball, it's called batting cleanup. Like you gotta bring it home because everyone's tired. They have been a bunch of days. And so to have the organizers have that faith in me and you have 19 months to practice and workshop it.
[00:01:41] Sue: So. Oh, wonderful. Well, Edinburgh is my home city, so I certainly have a familiarity for that part of the world. What do you think is your sort of special skill?
[00:01:54] Paul: Maybe none. I think my special skill is curiosity and having a technical background where I can take my curiosity and creativity and apply it to creating solutions. But I think a lot of that has been also building teams of people who can collaborate with me. And do things that I'm either not able to do or don't have time to do. So I don't know if I have special skills. I think I'm a good generalist. One of my mentors who has a Nobel prize in economics, Vernon Smith told me early on read narrowly in your own field and widely in other fields. And I've taken that to heart. I think it's great advice for everybody.
[00:02:29] Sue: And you reminded me of David Epstein's book Range which brings this principle alive as well. There's so much to talk to you about today, Paul and why I was particularly interested to talk to you is we were looking at our access to inspiration podcast and thinking we haven't really done anything on the neuroscience of inspiration and what's actually going on in our brains when we're experiencing listening to somebody that's inspiring. And that my curiosity led me to you. So I'm really fascinated to know what is it about researching extraordinary [00:03:00] experiences? How did you get into that in the first place? I guess.
[00:03:02] Paul: You know, like most things in life kind of ass backwards. So we were doing work originally funded by the us military and other agencies. The us government asked us to identify signals in the brain that would predict what people would do after a message or an experience. And so for listeners, it turns out your brain's a super lazy organ. Because it takes so much energy to run that it really just wants to idle most of the time. And so these signals that we identify these set of signals, which have called neurologic immersion, tell us that the experience you're having is extraordinary.
So we see that in behavior, not on self-report as when you have this experience, something happens that we can see. You post on social media, you email your Congress person about the environment. You buy a product, you remember information from training or a class. So, you know, all those things tell us that something extraordinary happened because the brain devoted the metabolic resources necessary to take in this experience and tag it as valuable emotionally tag it as valuable.
So an experience that you and I have both had Sue, which is crying at the end of a movie. So I'm a terrible movie crier. I hate to tell you, so that's a sort of experience where you've transported yourself into a new world, but it's so powerful. You have this emotional response. And even though we're crying, most people find that experience as valuable, as memorable as generating a sense of positive feeling enjoyment, right?
Even though crying is a super weird thing in humans, like we're almost the only ones who cry without being in pain. We cry for emotional reasons. Sometimes happy, sometimes sad. So that's just a physical manifestation of an extraordinary experience.
[00:04:43] Sue: And in terms of the work that you've done, you've taken that neuroscience and applied it in different ways. Your latest work is all about immersion. So tell us about what immersion is?
[00:04:53] Paul: So immersions I said is this neurologic state in which people have extraordinary experiences. So nobody wants to have a blah customer service experience. Someone wants to see a bad movie. Watch a bad ad. And so we took the research we did in the laboratory with expensive machines and all kinds of weird PhDs like me and basically wrote algorithms that allow anybody to measure how much the brain values and experience in real time using just a smart watch and then algorithms in the cloud.
And so this allows people to create entertainment, customer experiences. Advertising training education. We have so many applications to measure whether the impact is great for the receiver of that experience. Sometimes when we're craving experiences like a class, you know, a sales experience for a customer, we're kind of guessing that my experience is like your experience, but often it isn't and right.
So we, we can get out of a self-referential approach and really capture second by second in real time, how effective that experience is for the person that we're creating it for that we [00:06:00] want this experience to be. So I live outside Los Angeles for the past 30 years, 80% of Hollywood movies have lost money.
It just blows my mind, all this money, all these data analysts, and nobody knows a good movie from a bad movie. How is that possible at this stage of life? And I think it's because we're doing the wrong kind of data collection. We're asking you to articulate consciously what is an unconscious emotional state?
So immersion has two key components. The first is attention. If you're not attending to what's going on, it can't be a great experience if I'm doing something else. And that just kind of opens door. The second is most of the variation immersion over second by second has to do with, I call emotional resonance how much your brain says, oh, this is so valuable to me.
This is really important. And that emotional resonance is something that can be structured and created. So that the experience for the person having it is as good as possible. And anyway, there's more to it, but why don't we have this technology? And this is that, first of all, we had to find what these signals were in the brain.
And then second, we had to develop a technology in which anybody could measure them. So I believe that our platform neuroscience is the first neuroscience as a service platform that gives people this superpower, if you will, which is actually measur. People's brains in real time, which is so much fun, by the way, I've done a lot of laboratory research as you know, but to see the number of applications that our clients think of to subscribers that software use. So again, it's software, anybody can subscribe and use this. Like they are doing the coolest things. I would never have thought of
[00:07:37] Sue: Paul. I'm thinking about in business, people that are operating at peak performance levels all the time, eventually burnout, because they need time to rest and recover. When do we ever get rest? when does our brain ever have the down and recovery time? If it's got the potential to have more extraordinary experiences.
[00:07:57] Paul: So that is such a good neuroscience question. So when we look at this immersion data, and by the way, I'm measuring my own immersion right now, which I can show you because we're on video. Although the, listeners can't see, it is basically this kind of sine wave pattern. So the brain is modulating that energy flow all the time. And so it's never just on a hundred percent. In fact, as you said or suggested it would just be exhausting to do that. So that's a sense in which when you have these data, you can begin to curate an experience.
So that, for example, in a class, the most important information is presented during a peak immersion moment because immersion correlates with information recall weeks later, So I want to have. Here's the introduction. And then I can begin to create the most powerful, the most important part of this with high immersion.
And again, without measurement, you're sort of guessing maybe you can listen for people. Here's my sound effect, listening for people, wrestling their papers. If you've ever you've given talks many times like I have. And you know, sometimes when people get, I don't know, tuned out. You hear a little shuffling, a [00:09:00] little movement, they doing something else.
Maybe the phone comes on. That's awful, isn't it? But that's an imperfect measurement technology, right? So really having a real powerful technology that lets you even adjust in real time. So one of our largest clients, which is public knowledge, so I can tell you is Accenture, Accenture produces $1 billion of training annually for their employees.
In order to upskill them to be more successful. It's great value for the company and the company's clients and all they had to assess that $1 billion annual investment was that post event survey that we've all taken. How'd you like? The keynote speaker was the lunch. Okay. I don't care about that. What I really wanna know is.
Did your brain get shooken up so much that information stuck in your brain and now you can use it in the future to, to create value for the company. That's where the ROI comes from. And so that's what immersion captures. And so they've used our data, for example, to really radically change the way they produce training for their employees.
Just based on that measure. And real time measurement. I mean, real time neuroscience is really hard. Now we can talk about why that's hard, but they can pivot, right. People are tuned out and go, okay, you guys, we need a break. And so they've actually put in, as you suggested to much longer breaks. So training in shorter, more intensive modules and with longer breaks for recovery.
So if I'm asking your brain to devote the metabolic resources to really be fully immersed, then I need to get, have you come. And have you not do a two minute break or a five minute break? Really they're finding 15 or 20 minutes between sessions is really important. So
[00:10:36] Sue: you're describing something that some might say is obvious as in, we don't need any tech to measure that, that if we were fully immersed and engaged in a meaningful conversation, maybe we would pick up on that. So what are your thoughts about our ability as human beings? Take away all the tech and for us to come back to the basics of conversation and understanding when somebody is engaged or not.
[00:11:03] Paul: So a very good question. So what the data show from, so we've got about 50,000 brains we've measured on the site and it grows by, I don't know, couple hundred every day. So we have really good norms to really kind derive insights, absent measurement. And one of those is that people actually learn better in groups than they do singly, whether that's in person one to one or in the asynchronous, you know, remote setting. So the first thing is that we're social creatures and we're better in groups but that's the statement about averages. And I think what's missing from one to many kinds of interactions is knowing that distribution. So again, for Accenture, they may say, Hey, this course that we give we've changed it. So the average immersion has gone up creating more value for the company. But what about the super fans who love it?
They're your leverage points, right? They're the people who really understand the material and they can be peer mentors for those who don't understand it. So well, what about those individuals who are just [00:12:00] not understanding it very well? And this may be very important. Things like compliance. Hey, we gotta make sure you don't fail the exam or fail your guidance to a client.
Let's make sure that that information really stuck in your brain. If it didn't Hey, redo the course. And particularly when you're in the asynchronous world, let let's retake this course. We actually know this. Wasn't great for you and we can figure out why. And one of the key precursors to immersion is a physiologic measure I developed, I call psychological safety that most people have heard of now. And basically it means am I relaxed enough in this setting? That I have enough space in my brain to be immersed. If I'm not, I'm not ready to learn, right. Or I'm not ready to have customer service experience or to have a phone call to a prospect.
So measuring my own psychological safety, measuring psychological safety in a room of individuals tells me whether I have created the pre-conditions. To have an extraordinary experience and that knowledge again, maybe you can get it from people shuffling around. Why not just measure directly. So I agree with you that one on one, we should be able to do it, but also quite varied.
So, sorry, you asked a short question, but I'm giving you a long answer, but we find that individuals who by personality are highly empathic are better at reading those signs where I tend to be lower on empathy and higher on other factors by personality. So I'm less good at reading people. Then someone like my wife who can size someone up in two seconds.
So I think of emergent as a kind of neural prosthetic. It gives me again the sort of superpower where I can be more effective as a social creature, interacting with others by either looking at my data in real time, or at least reviewing ex post. What was the experience like for that person? And isn't that what we really want?
I think all business is about service. So if I wanna be of service to other people, I actually have to know how I'm interacting with them.
I think that's really an important thing. It's increasing the capability for the whole population, not just for those who have a natural predisposition to be able to read people.
[00:13:58] Sue: You talked a bit about psychological safety there, Paul, and that of course immediately takes my brain into thinking about trust. And I know you've done a lot of research about oxytocin. So why is that brain chemical so important? And how did you discover it was such an important brain chemical.
[00:14:14] Paul: Ah, what a nice question I had done work in the late nineties, showing that at the level of countries, interpersonal trust was among the strongest predictors of which countries would grow or not grow that economist that have ever, as you know, my work kind of overlaps a bunch of different fields.
And this measure of trust was just so compelling. And so the world bank has me out for a talk and I always get this very basic question. Why do two people who don't know each other ever trust each other? I said, well, my work is about the environment and then you think, man, I'm so full of crap. If I can't answer that most fundamental question.
And so I began reading a lot in every ology. I could think of psychology, sociology, and no one knew actually. And yet in the animal literature, there [00:15:00] was a very rich vein of growing neuroscience, identifying oxytocin as a signal. That a member of your species was safe or familiar. And I thought, oh, that's interesting.
Maybe I can apply that to humans. And the problem was in animals that drill into the skull to get a sample. I don't know a lot about humans, but I'm just guessing that was gonna be so cool for most people. So I developed a protocol to measure. The brain's acute production of oxytocin. And once we have this tool, then we can ask so many interesting different questions.
So, so just to say that people are social creatures, we wanna socialize. We normally get along again. There's not enough ooph there not enough leverage to really use this. So once we identify oxytocin as a key neurochemical signal that tells us that not only am I likely to be trustworthy when I've been shown some kind of positive interaction, trust, kindness.
We know a lot about what it does objectively and subjectively what promotes our inhibits. So oxytocin for example, increases our sense of empathy. So now, if you are nice to me now, I understand your emotional state better. Number one, number two, it increases our desire to work on someone else's behalf.
Well, that's counter to the standard view in economics and a lot of evolutionary biology. Why should I help you if I don't share that many genes with you? First of all, I have no idea how many genes I share with you. So that's kind of bogus statement number one, but number two, as social creatures, we need to be embedded in social groups and by helping you again, a reputation for helping others.
And so now I'm a better cooperative people will embrace me in community, not reject me. If I'm taking advantage of others. And then last thing, as I said, we know about inhibitors and promoters. So I can now understand why you Sue, who are I'm sure, a wonderful human being every once in a while. You're cranky to people around you because everybody is what's that about.
And you gotta go back the next day to your family or to your work colleagues and go, man, I was so cranky. I'm sorry. I just didn't sleep well. That'll do it. I hadn't eaten at 12 hours. I was super cranky. So we all understand that that one or two, you know, be some bad behavior. Doesn't mean you're a bad person.
Just means you're having a bad day. And so what I've learned from this 20 plus years of research oxytocin is that the majority of people, about 95% of people we've measured around the world, that this system is largely intact in almost everybody. So when you see bad behavior at work with your family, it's generally good people having a bad day.
And often we see bad behavior go, oh, that's a terrible person, but usually it's not this connection, empathy, caring, loving system. These are all very similar pathways in the brain seems to be intact in almost everybody. And it's so evolutionarily old that it's actually highly protected. So you really have to abuse, neglect, abandoned someone particularly early in childhood before the system really starts to right down.
And there are some, you know, psychiatric disorders in that this carries system. So severe forms of autism. For example, [00:18:00] I've studied criminal psychopaths and most of those do not have this intact empathy or care system, which tells you why they've hurt people, get into trouble by the way, psychopaths are completely overconfident by the, they never think they're gonna get caught.
So anyway, I think it's really building up this sense of tolerance that we're all kind of weird and we're gonna be inconsistent. We sort of think, Hey, people should be themselves all the time. There's no ourselves. Our brain is adapting in millisecond frequency and we're gonna see good and bad behavior.
And most of the time, in most situations we see lots of good behavior.
[00:18:32] Sue: Well, I can hear in your voice, Paul, the enthusiasm and passion you have for this subject that you've been studying. I'm curious to know what is it that got you interested in studying neuroscience in the first place?
[00:18:45] Paul: I'm a Martian. So I don't know how I got here on the earth, but I think I really don't understand people looking back and, you know, being able to create experiments, create technologies, to help me understand humans and humans also don't understand themselves.
So we run experiments, say, why'd you do this and people? Oh, I don't know. I can't build a theory of human behavior around. I don't know. It's so humbling and insightful to measure brain activity and see how absolutely variable humans are. So. Again, it has this creative and technical component that I really enjoy.
And then for me, I'm a super practical person. So I always wanna bring it back to when possible, taking the knowledge we've created and turn that into a solution that other people can use.
[00:19:27] Sue: You're following your own curiosity to answer that question about understanding human beings.
[00:19:32] Paul: Yes, and no, I mean, I'm honored to have been a professor at Claremont Graduate university for 26 years and they give me a lot of freedom. I still have to bring in grant money. I gotta convince someone to help support these experiments. Neuroscience is expensive, but I've always also been out in the world. And so I'm very curious about humans again, because I'm a Martian. And so I love to have people either come to my lab or visit their organizations.
And have them tell me about what they do and you get so many ideas by just actually interacting with humans. So most academics stay in their or lab and re journals and they don't wanna actually interact with the things I'm gonna study. So I'm a big believer in doing field studies and just spending time in interesting places.
And now with the software company, we see people doing the most interesting things with our technology and we're software. So I don't always know what people are doing, but I've had many, many conversations with subscribers to the immersion neuroscience platform. And they said, you know, we thought we knew this thing, but we measured and we found something completely different, man.
That's interesting. And now you have an interesting convers. What does that data mean? What are you gonna do about it? You know, have you really convince yourself, maybe you did one measurement or two. How about doing more? How about varying these situations? And so I really think that applying the scientific method to human behavior broadly understood can really help us only understand those around us, but be better at what we do. Broadly in our families, in our work lives. So to be [00:21:00]able to help create solutions, to bring that to the forefront, that's a mission. That's more than just the work I love doing that.
[00:21:06] Sue: That sounds like that's what gets you up in the morning?
[00:21:08] Paul: Certainly. Absolutely. I love it.
[00:21:11] Sue: So we are on the access to inspiration podcast. And our mission is to inspire listeners to reflect on their lives and the stories they're hearing from our guests who are from many different countries, from many different backgrounds. So that range and diversity that you're bringing into your laboratory. We're in a way, trying to replicate that in the world of the, or a podcast, how would you apply neuroscience to a podcast? To be able to make that an enriching and even more enjoyable experience for the listener.
[00:21:43] Paul: Yeah. As I said, I'm actually measuring my immersion right now. So I'm just gonna look in and see how I'm doing so pretty good. Again, it's always this kind of spiky up and down or, or sign, wave kind of approach. So I think it's really what we found for again, measuring immersion for thousands and thousands of people is that structure is important.
So I think there's three levels of which podcast can be improved, cuz based on all the data I've seen. What is that structure? So if I structure it around, you know, leading to a high point, as I said, with like training and education, having those key takeaways, being at peak immersion moments that makes it more memorable and more enjoyable for the audience.
But the second and third parts are the content itself. So actually having interesting content or having interesting guests and the third is delivery. And so just for listeners, Pull the curtain back just a little bit. You sent me a list of questions in advance. And so you prepped, you thought about this.
So we actually have a structure that we're roughly following that you created, and that helps the delivery of this content be more effective for listeners. And then again, I think. As you said, the variation across individuals is really interesting, you know, are there some podcasts that you've done that appeal more to women or to men or to older, younger people where the psychographics involved in, who listens to you? I mean, there's so many good questions that you can ask once you have really rich data.
[00:23:00] Sue: We conducted an impact report this year on what the effect of the podcast was on our listeners, on our guests and the team that work on the podcast. So now you're making me think about how we can utilize some of the research that you're providing to the world as well. Paul, to think about how impact could be looked at in a completely different way.
[00:23:19] Paul: Well, I'll send you the results from my measuring my own immersion from this podcast since you're so nice. I'll just shoot 'em to you when we're done.
[00:23:27] Sue: that'll be fascinating. If caring and oxytocin and connection is such an important part of how we engage as human beings. How can we do more of that in the workplace, from the research that you've uncovered?
[00:23:40] Paul: Yeah, I think it's really building social connections. So we're seeing this tension now after the COVID lockdowns of return to work, and there's some hesitance about people returning to work for, for lots of reasons, but we really do need to be together. We do see between 50 and 80% of the immersion that we see in person that we get from a [00:24:00] video conference. The problem with video conferencing or video working remote working is that we don't have those random conversations. Even if we start out, Hey, how was your weekend? Whatever that happens much more naturally.
And regularly when we're in person, I think we need to recognize our social nature and build those social connections. They're really important because we know that over time there will be stressors. We're gonna. Deadlines are gonna be looming. We're gonna lose team members. There's gonna be some stresses at work.
And those are buffered by having these social connections driven by oxytocin. And so a number of researchers, including myself, have shown that employees at work with stronger social connections. Are actually more productive. They enjoy their jobs more and we've shown they in fact shed the stress of work more rapidly when the work day's over.
So I'm really kind of on I'm immersed in work when I'm there, when I have rich social connections and when I'm done, I'm walking away. So I'm not getting that kind of burnout. I'm not carrying that chronic stress home that can be very damaging physically and emotionally. So I think it's really understanding that humans as social creature.
We're very natural as to, to form groups, to work on group projects. This is not counter to our underlying biology. We get a lot of satisfaction from doing that at the same time, we have to modulate that and we've gotta be around groups of individuals in which we trust. We can rely on these individuals.
And to also understand the sense of purpose. What we've shown in experiments is that when I articulate that social purpose of work, people put in so much more discretionary effort because we're helping the world. And that's what social creatures generally want to do. Again, that 5% we find have these psychopathic traits and those people, you gotta get 'em outta your organization.
[00:25:42] Sue: You're certainly making a compelling argument with the science in terms of why it's so important for us to have that social interaction with others, because it's in a way how we're built as human beings. .
[00:25:52] Paul: I mean, it's nice that it's good for employees and good for the organization. There's a giant win-win space there. I do think again, once you have measurement, then you can manage and improve. So for example, my group has recently worked with police departments, very stressful job, highly variable levels of trust in their team members. And 90% of the time they have to be helpful to the public. And 2% of the time bad things are happening and they gotta engage in you know, very difficult decisions.
And so how do you modulate that? How do you not become too aggressive? How do you. Sustain that focus on helping others who need it, and yet be aware that some situations are dangerous. And so what we've shown is by increasing trust within police departments, greater job retention, which is a big issue in the us for police departments, but also greater satisfaction.
[00:26:39] Sue: Well, absolutely. So how do you keep challenging yourself then? You've done a lot of things. What's catching your attention for the future.
[00:26:46] Paul: That's a great question. I think going into areas where I don't know much about it, and then learning about that and maybe finding people to collaborate with people, probably I trust. So we are currently in my lab, very high frequency data collection, so we can [00:27:00] collect data from the brain up to a thousand times a second. So it's a lot of richness in that data. And we're now applying machine learning to these data stream. Very very useful, improving our predictive accuracy to really understand what humans are doing.
And so I think building those technical tools and then also being naive, the police department work, I got sucked into that because I gave some lectures on leadership to police chiefs. And I started talking to these guys. I'm like, man, they don't even have data. Like they're just winging it. So let me go hang out with them for a while and spend some time in police depart.
And talk these individuals and see what's going on. And then, you know, there's a research perspective to that, but there's also a helping perspective. And you see, particularly some of the police chiefs, these people are really smart. They're really helpers. And if I can just add a little bit of technical expertise to what they're doing, then their department works better.
They work better as chiefs and their communities are functioning better as well. So, you know, I think that that balance between the research side. Creating technologies like immersion neuroscience to make that research available to others and then putting myself into situations that I do not belong.
[00:28:12] Sue: And finally, Paul, to think about that curiosity that you have, if you look at the world's big problems, where would you love to do your research to believe that you could add value?
[00:28:23] Paul: What a great question. I mean, it's such a big question. I think it's really making things simpler and simpler from a sort of a science perspective. I'm certainly communicating. And I try to like, with you try to communicate very clearly. I think also creating technologies that anybody can use. So I think the same thing with a lot of these technologies that are being developed from virtual reality, augmented reality to neuroscience tools as they get easier, cheaper, and have more applications, then hopefully.
These wonderful social creatures called humans can begin to integrate them into our lives in a reasonable way to increase happiness. So really the arc of all my professional work has been creating knowledge and technologies to increase happiness in the world. So at the individual level, at the organizational level, at the societal level. And so that's really where I'm putting my efforts.
[00:29:14] Sue: Well, that's such a wonderful mission that guiding your life in terms of where your work goes. Paul, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you today. I've learned a lot about neuroscience that I didn't know before, and you've certainly inspired me to challenge my thinking about how we can create even more extraordinary experiences for our listeners with this podcast in the future. If our listeners do want to find out more about the work that you do, how might they do.
[00:29:37] Paul: They can go to my website, get immersion.com , or just Google me and I'll pop up somewhere and have a new book out. May I mention that this summer 2022 called Immersion: The Science of the Extraordinary and the Source of Happiness (Lioncrest, 2022).
[00:29:54] Sue: Fantastic. I'll make sure that we mention that in the show notes as well. Thank you again, Paul, for your time. It's been wonderful to speak to [00:30:00] you today.
[00:30:00] Paul: Thank you.
[00:30:02] Sue: Well, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Paul. It was really fascinating. And if you're interested to know what that result looked like in terms of the printout from his immersion neuroscience data, then drop me a message. I'm happy to share it with you and you can find out how that worked. Well. We have over 70 other episodes that you can listen to, including some others related to the brain. In episode three, I spoke to a neuroscientist, Keith Crutcher on the brain and its ability to adapt. And also more recently in episode 70, I spoke to Sophie Dow on why no mind should be left behind. Remember you can find transcriptions for all the episodes on our website, access to inspiration.org, and you can also download a copy of our impact report there too. Next week, I will speak to Manuel Gil from Columbia. Who took over a family business in the healthcare industry and has transformed it by focusing on harmony. I do hope you can join me then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him)
Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale, podcast host and author of EXPLORE: A Life of Adventure, previews some of the upcoming guests in Series 10 and suggests three ways that listeners can get the most from each episode. They include:
- Susan Murphy, on using your authentic voice
- Elena Rossini, film maker and activist
- Thomas Luther, CEO
- Adeyanju Olomola, on overcoming imposter syndrome
- Manuela Gil, on taking over a family business
Finally, Sue previews next week’s guest Dr Paul J. Zak, a 5-time TED speaker, and Professor of economics, psychology and management at Claremont Graduate University, California. Paul has started four technology companies including the first neuroscience as a service platform, called immersion neuroscience. He even used the tech whilst recording the episode with Sue to track his own level of immersion!
Our podcast series is supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations. Find out more at squadcast.fm
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Preview of Series 10 transcription Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to the Access to Inspiration podcast. The show where you can learn from people who may be unlike you, we're now into our 10th series. Well, I can't believe that we've published over 70 episodes so far ranging from an Explorer and an entrepreneur to a climate conscious activist and a compos.
As always our guests have come from around the world. I think more than 25 countries at the last count and more than half of them are also first time podcast guests. We are very proud of the fact that we can bring their stories to you in this way and help them to reach a new audience. Well, for those of you who are first time listeners to the podcast, you may not know that you can find a transcription for each episode on our website, access to inspiration.org.
So hop on over there if you find that reading their stories, whilst listening will be easier for you. Well, one of our listeners recently asked me why we started this podcast. So I thought it explained that. Because I guess as human beings, we are inherently social creatures and to survive. I know that we need to work with others.
However, we tend to underestimate the extent to which we can learn from people who are different to us, because many of us often feel safer to work with our familiar social groups. Well, I've traveled to over 70 countries in my life so far. And I realize that there's a danger that if we don't gain broader perspectives from people who maybe from different countries or who are different to us, we can become prisoners in our own paradigms.
And there are lots of examples of the consequences in the world when that has happened. When groups or teams have taken that approach. It was our aim with this podcast, access to inspiration, to help you our listener, to broaden your perspectives and to encourage you, to listen, to and learn from those who are different to you.
Maybe they live in a different country, do a different job, or are a different gender to you. And we hope that by bringing that diversity, it will give you some inspiration and some new insights. Also maybe ask yourself, well, what should I listen for when I'm listening to these podcasts? Well, three ideas came up in my mind when I was thinking about this question.
First of all, perhaps consider being curious and listen, as if you were the host, what question would you want to ask this guest? Number two, try and listen for what's not being said by the guest or the host. And what does that cause you to think about. And finally, number three, maybe step into the shoes of the guests themselves.
Imagine yourself in their world and facing their challenges, living their lives. What insight might you get from imagining that situation? And I think if you take one of these three approaches, then I'm sure you will learn something new and it will give you some inspiration. We have a fantastic lineup of guests coming up in this forthcoming series.
I'm going to be speaking to voice coach Susan Murphy, about how to communicate using your authentic voice. And then a Adeyanju Olomola from Nigeria. She's going to be talking about how to overcome imposter syndrome. Then heading to Finland to speak to Thomas Luther who's the CEO of an infrastructure growth company.
And then I'm also excited to be interviewing Elaine Rossini, an Italian film director and activist. And then another amazing woman, Jane Atkinson, an engineer who was the first woman in the world to manage a blast furnace and to kick off series 10. Next week, we have a fantastic guest in Dr. Paul J Zak. Paul is a professor of economics, psychology and management at Claremont graduate university, and is ranked in the top, not 0.3% of most cited scientists with over 170 published papers.
Paul's two decades of research have led him to focus on the neuroscience of extraordinary experiences. And he will be explaining some of the neuroscience behind why we do need to connect with others. And I think you'll enjoy what he has to say. Here's a preview of what Paul had to say about immersion. That's the neurologic stage where people have peak experiences. And as we recorded the podcast episode that you'll hear next week, Paul was also recording his neurologic state. And they showed me the printout afterwards, which was really fascinating. I felt like it was getting a report card on my performance.
Paul: Immersion has two key components. That first is attention. If you're not attending to what's going on, it can't be a great experience if I'm doing something else. The second is most of the variation immersion over second by second has to do with, I call emotional resonance how much your brain says, oh, this is so valuable to me. This is really important. And that emotional resonance is something that can be structured and created so that the experience for the person having it is as good as possible. There's more to it, but why don't we have this technology? And this is that, first of all, we had to find what these signals were in the brain.
And then second, we had to develop a technology in which anybody could measure them. So I believe that our platform neuroscience is the first neuroscience is a service platform that gives people this superpower, if you will, which is actually measuring people's brains in real time, which is so much fun.
Sue: Well, I hope that has witted your appetite for Paul's episode coming up next week between now and then remember you can keep connected with us on socials. We are on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, or hop one over to our website, access to inspiration.org and subscribe to our newsletter. You can do this at the bottom of the homepage. Look forward to connecting with you next week as we kick off series 10, bye for now.