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Episode 300- Do Not Engage in “Maritime Salvage” Just Yet. Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 11

Gun Lawyer — Episode 300 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey gun ban, Third Circuit Court, Second Amendment, Judge Friedman, assault firearms, large capacity magazines, Supreme Court decision, July 31 date, mandate, stay of implementation, common use, federal gun laws, interstate commerce, carry permit, socialism.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:20

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:23

And this is Gun Lawyer. I need to give everyone a warning. Do NOT engage in maritime salvage from boating accidents until given the all clear.

Teddy Nappen 00:39

You might find a few bodies in Jersey.

Evan Nappen 00:41

Well, the reason for this is, of course, we’re all extremely excited about the Third Circuit Court of Appeals en banc decision killing and pronouncing dead the New Jersey 36-year-old ban on so-called “assault firearms” and so-called “large capacity magazines”. (https://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/242415p.pdf) I mean, we’ve known it’s a violation of the Second Amendment ever since the day it passed, but finally getting to this day is wonderful. Just a great day for freedom and liberty and shoving it up New Jersey’s butt. It is great. It is great.

Evan Nappen 01:26

However, in practical terms, a lot of the key questions that are out there. Are we good to go? Can we buy these guns? Can we buy these mags? What’s the story? What’s the deal? I’m going to explain to you where we’re at with that, and that’s the important thing that I know a lot of you want to know. At the moment, we’ve got to just let the dust settle here because there’s certain formalities and deadlines and procedures that can happen. Yes, we have the win. We have the win. It’s a fantastic win. It’s a decision which was 10 – 5. It was brilliant. We absolutely crushed it. Page – 2 – of 11 Page – 3 – of 11

Evan Nappen 02:07

The decision was written by Judge Freeman, who, by the way, the judge who wrote this magnificent decision was a Biden appointee, and the first female judge of color. That’s right, a woman of color. The first on the Appellate Court and a Biden appointee – who is giving us this fantastic Second Amendment decision, which is restoring freedom and helping to stop oppression of our Second Amendment rights. So, you know, this is important because it’s how it should be. Those that believe in rights, whatever you might think of the bat might be their politics. It’s everybody’s Second Amendment. It’s everybody’s right. And if you’re going to follow the Constitution and you’re going to be a judge that follows the Constitution and does not goes for politics, then this is the right thing to do. So, I take my hat off to Judge Freeman. It is a great decision. Extraordinarily thorough.

Evan Nappen 03:27

I understand her background was that in being a public defender as well, and I’m sure that she saw what these laws do to good people and how unfair and unbelievably stupid they are. We now see the results of all the incredible hard work that’s been done over years that got us to this point. So, we’re all just jumping for joy, and it’s really making clear that the so-called assault weapon, assault firearm bans, even across the country, are on their deathbed or are being killed and dying. Even with the U.S. Supreme Court having taken the Viramonti and Grant cases now. We’re going to get a federal Supreme Court decision that’ll come out in June 2027. This New Jersey Appeals Court decision is, of course, going to I’m sure come into play in their decision making there, and it is a great day for us for sure.

Evan Nappen 04:37

However, how does it work now that we have that decision? How will it work in practical terms? This is where some patience is necessary. Some important patience is called for. And that’s because you may have heard, and if not, I’m going to mention to you, that there was an email that was sent out to dealers from the State Police Firearms Unit. It went out and it said that that essentially July 31st, July 30-first, they’re going to the this will become effective, meaning the court case effective. It was kind of weirdly written with this date, and it seemed to indicate that July 30-first, everything was going to be free flowing, and we were going to be good to go. But it wasn’t really. It basically put everyone thinking. Okay, July 31 is some kind of key date, and that’s when we’re going to know. Why would they even pick that? Like, what is going on? So let me explain that date and what’s really happening. As a matter of fact, our good friend, John Petrolino, at Bearing Arms, recently had an article that says “NJ AG Backtracks on Date of Gun and Magazine Ban’s Demise”. (https://bearingarms.com/john-petrolino/2026/07/23/nj-ag-backtracks-on-date-gun-magazine-ban-demise-n1233262)

Evan Nappen 06:10

The backtracking is as follows. This is what’s going on. That July 31 date, which Bearing Arms and Petrolino got the word from Davenport’s office. Davenport is the Attorney General that is saying. “We have until July 31, 2026 to petition the court for rehearing, and then seven days later on August 7, 2026 is when the decision is effective”. So, that’s where they’re coming from. Are they going to petition for a rehearing now? Just because they petition for a rehearing doesn’t mean that a rehearing is going to get granted, and I frankly think it’s unlikely that it’s going to get granted. Page – 4 – of 11

Evan Nappen 07:08

Now, in addition to this mix, is what’s called the mandate. A good friend and colleague, who was the lead counsel and fought hard on this very case, Dan Schmutter, a great Second Amendment attorney, was speaking to John (Petrolino) and also explained that there’s this mandate. Essentially, what he said is, “The mandate is the actual order . . .” That’s the direction to the lower court to implement the ruling, and that mandate is basically an August 10t date. So, August 10 is going to be a critical date in understanding the practical aspects of when and if these firearms and magazines will again be bought, sold, and possessed in New Jersey. And that’s why we’re putting advice out about not doing any maritime salvage for any boating accidents on recovery until we have an understanding of where we’re at here.

Evan Nappen 08:32

Now, there may even be a stay granted, a stay of the implementation of the mandate. That would mean we’d be in a holding pattern until that stay gets lifted. This might, in fact, happen, and then that will ride until we get the (U.S.) Supreme Court rendering its decision. New Jersey also might try to go for (U.S.) Supreme Court review, what we call certiorari, and that may end up bringing it into or making it part of or put on hold with the Supreme Court case pending in Viramontes and Grant. This is all out there in the mix.

Evan Nappen 09:15

So, the number one takeaway from all this is – Don’t do anything yet. We have all the reason to be extremely happy, to be joyous, to realize that all our hard work is paying off. But at the moment, don’t take any steps yet, so that you don’t end up in a giant GOFU. And doing something now is the GOFU. That’s this week’s GOFU. This week’s GOFU, even though we normally do it at the end of the show, let me just tell you right now, the GOFU is that. Do NOT do anything different right now. Don’t buy or order magazines. Don’t possess any of the firearms that may fall under the current ban. You may be seeing things online where people are claiming that they’re buying and selling and doing. I wouldn’t be doing that right now. Even though I’m confident in our victory, it still isn’t a done deal. The old “wait till the fat lady sings” deal. Well, it applies here. There’s still the risk. And during that time period, right now, before we have the definitive legal standing, so we can say you have the green light. We’re all good. You’re taking a risk that you don’t want to take. So that is the point.

Teddy Nappen 10:48

One of the things in reading the case, Dad, just kind of going through, they outline the full breakdown of using Bruen of how they essentially destroy it with the test, the two-part test. The Second Amendment plain text covers the individual’s conduct, and then clicks to the next one. And also says it must demonstrate the regulations consist of nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. They show the combination of this with Wolford as well. Wolford goes into the three subsidiaries where applies, what is people, all members of political community, and then goes into arms. Arms is the game because that was the whole crux was the issue of common use. That was the entire thing that the Left have been trying, the dangerous and unusual. It was clearly outlined in the opinion talking about the idea of common use, both with the AR-15s and assault firearms, but with mags as well. They even highlight that where the I almost read like Scalia, where he used to you know. If you ever read his opinions, he always joked and made like little snide remarks. It was very funny. But with the 24 million AR-15s, this Page – 5 – of 11

is right out of the case, 24 million AR-15s and similar sporting rifles, the classification that can be determined are in common use, lawful purposes, typically common standard. With a 20 to 30-round mag, up to 100 million 30-round mags in the United States, magazines are in circulation. That sets the degree of common use.

Evan Nappen 12:38

Let me tell you why that’s so important. Because once common use, you have that, and it actually has a reverse burden from this case. Common use is shown. It’s done. It’s there. We, as those challenging the laws, that burden isn’t on us, and it makes it now so that the State has to demonstrate the Bruen test. So, this is very significant because of how it addresses common use. And, of course, these semi-automatic firearms and their magazines are, it’s undisputable. It’s indisputable that they’re in common use. There’s more AR-15s than there are Ford F-150s out there. So, this is great. And you know the gun rights oppressors realize that their days are numbered, don’t you think, Teddy? Don’t you think they realize that?

Teddy Nappen 13:55

Well, not only that, they’re putting out newsletters crying about it. I mean, cut to right now, The Trace. Literally, they just admitted defeat right from The Trace. “New Jersey Just Lost Its Assault Weapon Ban. Here’s Why That Matters for the Rest of the Country.” (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/07/state-assault-weapons-ban-new-jersey/) They admit it. In Delaware. The challenges in Chicago. All the different ones that are currently in play to take out the assault weapon bans. They even go into that it’s been part of. It’s been, they’ve been a synonym, the assault weapons and the gun control debate. Oh, really? It just shows the outlandishness of the debate, really.

Evan Nappen 14:39

Yeah. Well, they know it, and this issue for them has been such a magnificent fundraising, pearl clutching, issue for them, and it is going to be bye bye. Across the board on gun laws challenges, they are losing, losing, losing, losing.

Teddy Nappen 15:07

The one thing I will say, and I always like reading the dissent. This is the mindset of the Left of how they, and pulling right from the dissent here where they go into it. The rights secured by our founders in the Second Amendment is not unlimited. They always cite that to Heller. It has never been understood that the guarantee of a right to keep and bear arms, to carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever, or for whatever purpose. Instead, the Second Amendment allows states to ban certain types of firearms. I don’t remember that in the Second Amendment. I don’t remember those words.

Evan Nappen 15:50

Well, here’s a funny little thought that occurred to me about this. Once the dust settles, and ARs and mags and semi-auto rifles and all the, you know, intrinsically evil guns that the oppressors hate. Once they’re all good to go in New Jersey, the definition of assault firearm. That term, assault firearm. That definition is still found in New Jersey law. It’s just that the ban is found to be unconstitutional. The ban, right? The prohibition. But the definition of that term is still in law. That’s found under firearm definitions. It’s found there. The ban itself is found in a different section. That’s under N.J.S. 2C:58-5.(f). It’s a Page – 6 – of 11

different section. That’s where it’s banned. It’s made a crime of the second degree to possess any of these guns without a permit to carry an assault firearm, or it having been registered or rendered inoperable. Right there in the statute. If you don’t have any of those exceptions, then you are a violator. If you violate it, if you’re convicted, you’re looking at up to 10 years in State Prison, with a minimum mandatory three and a half years. It’s draconian and insane.

Evan Nappen 17:28

So, the law, the law itself, that is the ban. That’s the 39-5 law. That’s where the ban is. The definition is in 39-1. However. However, what’s very interesting is New Jersey has, under 58-5. That’s N.J.S. 2C:58-5. They have the license to carry and possess an assault firearm. Now that license to carry an assault firearm mandated two things in order to get it. One is that you first have a permit to carry a handgun, and of course, when that law was put in place, you know, there were less than 600 citizens that even had permits to carry a handgun. Now, there’s 100,000 approximately or more that have a permit to carry a handgun. So, that one has already been met.

Evan Nappen 18:33

Then the other thing you had to show was that somehow it was in the public interest for you to have this. However, that standard, those standards, even the standard for carry of justifiable need, the standards have been eviscerated by Bruen. You can’t have those standards. You can’t have those standards on a carry. So, what is left in place, my friends, is an assault firearm carry license. Let that sink in. So, in other words, not only by the definition that still exists are these guns there as a list, but New Jersey has a carry permit waiting for you to obtain, so that you can carry those guns. They can no longer ban them, but they have a license to carry them that you can get. And not only will you be able to get it, you’ll be able to get it and have the guns. Because you can’t ban the guns. So, now, their carry permit that they put in to somehow work as an impossible to get exemption can now be turned against them, and can be used so that we can even get licenses to carry the list of guns that they so radically expanded to the features of the ’97 guidelines and anything substantially identical in the list of 67 guns, etc. So, their laws are going to come back, as they are, and bite them in the ass, as it should be. Keep that in mind.

Teddy Nappen 20:21

It’ll be really, it would be really funny, Dad. If we somehow could interview Josh Sugarman. Just to ask him, like his literally the thing, the term that he used is now going to codify as the de facto defense to allow people to have and possess the firearms.

Evan Nappen 20:39

And not just possess, but to be able to carry. Because New Jersey has a so-called assault firearm carry license. The definition of assault firearm is one statute, and the carry license is another. What the decision is invalidating is the ban, is the ban, and New Jersey has a vehicle in place already in law to apply to carry them. So, there you go. Another little tidbit to consider.

Evan Nappen 21:13

And I’ll tell you something else, Teddy. I have a really important case to talk about that may even be more significant, if you can believe it. More significant than this entire battle over assault firearms. Page – 7 – of 11

Because this issue may completely wipe out the key foundation of federal gun laws. I’m gonna tell you about it in a moment. But first I want to tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot. Where we get our certifications, where we get our training, and where we love to enjoy our range time. Now WeShoot, as many of you know, has a fantastic pro shop. There are such a great bunch of folks, and they have many different programs, training, and offerings.

Evan Nappen 22:12

One of the things they’re offering right now that I want to talk about, that I think is really, really great is they’re offering New Jersey carry certification, CCARE, but specifically they’re offering a course for seniors. For seniors. They have a very welcoming, senior-friendly program designed to make the process simple, comfortable, and easy to understand. With WeShoot’s extremely experienced instructors, they’re able to provide a safe and supportive and a pressure-free environment where you can build your confidence, improve your skills, and gain the knowledge necessary so you can carry responsibly. This course is really a great idea, and it is something that if you are a senior and you are looking to be able to protect yourself, because that is our right, and of course, as a senior, you know you’re not as physically capable as you used to be.

Evan Nappen 23:30

This course has basic firearm safety as a component. There’s safe handling and loading, unloading, and storage techniques. They do easy to understand instruction in use of force, how to do holster safely, safety with holsters, and how to properly draw. Then you do the live fire qualification. All this is step-by-step guidance, including through the New Jersey permit application process. So, this is a great service that is being offered by WeShoot. If you or anyone you know is a senior and they want to be able to get their permit to carry, here’s a great opportunity to be introduced and learn properly, correctly, and get the credentials that you need to do it from We Shoot. Check out weshootusa.com. Their beautiful website with fantastic photography. And don’t miss the WeShoot girls when you go on their website. You’ll love it. WeShoot is the place. They’re right there, conveniently located in central Jersey. Conveniently, right off the Parkway there. Check it out.

Evan Nappen 24:49

Let me also mention my book, New Jersey Gun Law. Make sure you have your copy of New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, all question and answer. It will guide you through the insane matrix of New Jersey gun laws, and it is something that I’m looking forward to seeing be made smaller, being made a smaller volume. That’d be nice as we keep chopping away the gun laws. But New Jersey still has many of these laws to go, and you need to make sure that you don’t become a GOFU. So, go to evannappen.com, evannappen.com, and get your book today.

Evan Nappen 25:37

Now, Teddy, there is a really important development taking place in the Fifth Circuit, and it’s all because of Saint Thomas. That is what we call Justice (Clarence) Thomas, one of the greatest judges on the Supreme Court, of course. He, interestingly, laid out a challenge. He laid out a challenge in the recent Supreme Court decision in (United States v.) Hemani. In Hemani, Justice Thomas said, “The Commerce Clause does not authorize Congress to ‘regulate or ban possession of any item that has Page – 8 – of 11

ever been offered for sale or crossed state lines'”. Then Thomas wrote. “Otherwise, federal commerce authority becomes “a general police power of the sort retained by the States.”

Evan Nappen 26:58

Now that is a fascinating gauntlet thrown down by Judge Thomas, and it has now been picked up by the Fifth Circuit. And a great article on this by Duncan Johnson from Ammoland. The article is: “Fifth Circuit Takes Justice Thomas Up on Challenge to Federal Gun-Control Power”. (https://www.ammoland.com/2026/07/fifth-circuit-squire-922g-federal-gun-ban/?utm_source=Ammoland+Subscribers&utm_campaign=1fc1371d30-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-1fc1371d30-21268623) And yes, it does.

Evan Nappen 27:22

Because what Thomas is doing there is going at the federal power of interstate commerce. Now, let me tell you, folks. There’s only certain powers that the federal government has, and all the other powers out there are reserved to the states. So, what are the powers of the federal government? Well, there’s three primary powers that the federal governments have. And if the laws are not founded within those powers, if the powers aren’t there, then there’s no jurisdiction for the law that the Government has passed. So, the key federal powers are the power of taxation. That’s one power. The military power. And the power of interstate commerce. Those are the powers in the Constitution given to the federal Government. All the other powers go to the states.

Evan Nappen 28:24

So, you see that every federal law, every federal law, has to be based on one of those three powers. Otherwise, there’s no jurisdiction for the law. So, originally, way back, the key power that was used by the federal government were two: military and the power of taxation. And you see, the power of taxation that was the first power used to pass a national gun control law, the National Firearms Act of 1934. The NFA is based on the power of taxation. That’s why you get a tax stamp. That’s why ATF and all were originally part of Treasury. It’s all based on the Government’s power of taxation. And with the Big Beautiful Bill, the tax was made zero. So, now, in the big beautiful lawsuit, the argument is: if you’re not collecting a tax, then your jurisdiction for this, your power of taxation, doesn’t exist anymore. The law is no longer valid because it’s no longer a tax, and therefore no jurisdiction.

Evan Nappen 29:44

Well, that third power, interstate commerce, that’s where you see the greatest amount of federal government abuse and overreach that ever existed. You can trace that back to the Wickard versus Filburn case. (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/317/111/) This case had to do with a farmer growing his own food during FDR’s administration. The farmer was growing his own food for himself and for his own livestock. He didn’t sell a grain of it anywhere. And the government said, “You can’t do that. We regulate what farmers can and can’t grow.” And the farmer said, “Hey, man, this is my farm. It’s for me. It’s not for anyone else. I have a right to do it. And the court said, “Oh, well, the fact that you grow your own and don’t sell it or distribute it affects interstate commerce. Affects it. And man, that opened the door. Because then anything that affects interstate commerce, anything that has traveled in interstate commerce, anything. Broad, broad, broad. This explosion in federal power. Page – 9 – of 11

Evan Nappen 31:00

Thomas, obviously and correctly, sees that this is nuts, and wants to pull it back. And now we have a case in the Fifth Circuit, “United States versus Squire”. Again, en banc, full court, where there was a total remand back, in which the consideration is now going to be a challenge as to whether interstate commerce, whether that power, can affect simply, as in Squire’s case, which involved a felon. A convicted felon, a bad guy. Someone who, you know, is not a nice person, as our president would say. Not a nice person. However, the gun that was found in, I think it was Louisiana, the gun that was found at this guy’s place was not used in a crime. Was not used in a murder. You know, was not the element was not evidence of any offense of that.

Evan Nappen 32:14

But he was charged with being a felon in possession of a firearm. The question is, is a gun that merely at some point had traveled through interstate commerce, but was no longer, you know, in interstate commerce at all. It was no longer. Just in this guy’s place, sitting in a state in in Louisiana. Does the federal government’s power of interstate commerce still apply to that, so that they can enforce a federal gun law stopping felons from possessing a gun, or is that an overreach? And this case, my friends, has the potential to remove the very foundation of federal gun laws based on interstate commerce. It is extremely, extremely important. Even the dissent recognizes that this is the case. As a matter of fact, the dissent in the Squire’s case said the court has “welcomed the possibility of finding that Congress’s Commerce Clause authority cannot support 922(g).” That’s the felon in possession prohibition. “Such a decision”, he (Judge Stephen Higginson) said, “would have massive import for federal law.” That’s right. You’re damn right it will. You’re damn right it will. And that’s what they’re afraid of. This is why the Squire case can be absolutely game-changing like no other. So, we will keep a close eye on that.

Teddy Nappen 34:14

I would kind of combine that with just, from the political landscape where you see. I don’t know if you saw the Democrat Socialists. They put out that stupid manifesto where they were talking about eliminating the Senate, expanding Congress. They appoint the president. You don’t elect the president. They appoint and just abolishing our system.

Evan Nappen 34:37

Oh yeah, they’re basically turning us into a dictatorship, a communist dictatorship.

Teddy Nappen 34:44

I feel like that would be the ultimate check on their power. If we could really, really, truly curtail the commerce clause to not allow that much power.

Evan Nappen 34:56

Oh yeah, we need to. Yeah, this is all about pulling back the federal government in its overreach. And yet something like national reciprocity, where we’re dealing with a Constitutional right and actually traveling interstate. Well, now we do have interstate commerce going on. We have crossing state lines. We have something that is so plainly a federal issue that falls under it. Whereas, when you start making an inanimate object that at some point just crossed the state line and ends up in somebody’s home. Page – 10 – of 11

They’re not traveling with it. They’re not moving with it. They’re just saying, “Hey, you know, even though it was purchased or acquired in Louisiana, but at some point it had to get to a dealer, you know, and made it to the. I mean, this is so far down the line of having any connection to it.

Evan Nappen 35:55

And as Thomas points out, it basically removes the state police power, which is a power that should be reserved to the state. So, this is going to be a fascinating argument to follow, and the threat of communism through the Democrat Socialists. I mean, you know, look at what we’re looking at today, Teddy. When was the last time we saw that, you know, Democrat Socialists? You know, they want national socialism, and they combine it with Jew hate. Gee, those folks used to walk funny. I think, right? Remember them? That’s what they’re basically mirroring right now in America.

Teddy Nappen 35:55

Well, it goes back to, Dad, you gotta look at the two biggest propagandist industries. You had higher education, which you know that’s, thank God Donald Trump cracked down on that hard. Where now they’re no longer be going to give out loans to. So you have to get a bat. You can get a bachelor degree in feminist basket weaving, and that’ll cut out a lot.

Evan Nappen 35:55

Right, that’s a great move, too. You’re right.

Teddy Nappen 35:58

And number two is Hollywood and entertainment, where they also push the socialist movement. That I think, particularly with AI and other and independent projects, are rising above and breaking the stranglehold of Hollywood. At the point now, they’re trying to fund Jersey, where Netflix is building, and you got Paramount and the others are funding it. Trying to turn into the New East Hollywood. But the main thing is McCarthy wasn’t wrong. He went overzealous, yes, but just the levels of it. There were communists in our in the in our works of the government, and here is the fruits of their labor.

Evan Nappen 35:58

Well, not only that, you know, during McCarthy’s day, they tried to stay hidden. Now, they’re open about it. They’re open.

Teddy Nappen 36:37

They’re proud of it. They’re bragging. They’re proud of it.

Teddy Nappen 37:54

They’re wearing it. They’re bragging about it. And this is a complete antithesis to what America is all about, and nowhere ever has communism worked. Look, you know, when that wall came down in Germany, where do you think they wanted to go? You know, you don’t see people escaping. “Escaping” to communism. It’s the reverse. And once you get communism, once you elect it in, you end up having to shoot your way out. So, you know, I don’t think the overwhelming majority of Americans are that foolish. But here’s the problem. The majority of Democrats are because statistically they’re apparently in favor of socialism, which is just, you know, a euphemistic label for communism. Page – 11 – of 11

Teddy Nappen 38:54

Here’s the issue, though, Dad. It’s my generation, the next, where I think the number was like 58% are seen in favor of socialism. That’s that generation. So, you this time period will be fine. But the next generation, that’ll be where like it’s something. This is where we need to do heavy, heavy arms of propaganda. And look, the easiest way to dispel this argument – name me one country where socialism works. Tell me that. They immediately try to say the Nordic country, and then I say, okay. First of all, here’s a deal for you. We’ll completely deregulate oil, just like the Nordic countries. Our immigration policy is about around 3% and reduce the migrant population to about the size of any Nordic country. And then finally to end it all, make sure people have healthy, maintain themselves healthily, and actually watch what they’re actually eating and going into developing healthier habits, like a lot of the Nordic countries. Then get back to me on socialism. Other than that, none of that works. We are a heavily diverse nation. We have a lot of unhealthy issues. So, when I hear it, it’s just B.S., every single time. There is no. They move the goalposts and say there’s never been any true. It hasn’t worked yet because it’s not. It hasn’t been the right version.

Evan Nappen 40:18

Yeah, right. Well, I don’t want to be part of that experiment. Thank you. Okay, no thanks. No, thank you. I’ll stick with our Founding Fathers. I’ll stick with the incredible quality of life that capitalism has given us. And there’s a reason why so many people want to come here. There’s a really good reason for it, and it ain’t communism. That’s for sure. Hey, the other thing. This. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

Teddy Nappen 40:43

No, I was gonna say. Here’s the other one. Name me once did communism ever allow for someone to take a loan to get a business started? Name me one faction of that, where someone who came from essentially the small folk being able to rise up and become millionaires and running their own businesses. Yeah, exactly.

Evan Nappen 41:07

Maybe recently you heard, I just heard President Trump talking about it, and he summed it up pretty well. He said, “Communism is shit.” That’s exactly what the President said, and then he goes. His wife gets upset when he uses that word, and Reverend Falwell even wrote him once and said to him, you know, we’d prefer if he would try not to use profanity. And then Trump said he told him, the problem is that’s the word that perfectly describes communism. So, I guess if there’s any time to use the word, that’s the time to use the word. So, there you go.

Evan Nappen 41:49

Hey, this is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 42:03

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E300_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 299-AG Attacks Gun ShowsAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 13

Gun Lawyer — Episode 299 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun Lawyer, Second Amendment, Jimmy Stewart, Lee Marvin, Charles Bronson, Ghost Guns, Pennsylvania gun show, Civil Complaint, New Jersey gun laws, Second Amendment Section, DOJ, Gun Control, Red Flag Laws, Gun Owner Faux Pas.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 2, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

and I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, I think you have a very interesting news bit to tell us about, and I have some very interesting thoughts about it. Go right ahead.

Teddy Nappen 00:36

Well, first I want to say, Dad, if you’re just scrolling through, I love the random trailers that just pop up. Apparently, they’re making a Jimmy Stewart biopic.

Evan Nappen 00:48

Well, Jimmy Stewart was a great man.

Teddy Nappen 00:50

But here’s the deal. They’re focusing on his military career, where he was a combat pilot.

Evan Nappen 00:56

He was a hero. He was a bona fide hero, and he served his country tremendously. I have nothing but respect for Jimmy Stewart.

Teddy Nappen 01:12

I was pulling it up. He flew 20 missions in Europe, and he reached the rank of Colonel. He was a World War Two pilot commander, combat pilot.

Evan Nappen 01:22

And this was in the middle of his movie career. He left. Page – 2 – of 13

Evan Nappen 01:26

He left his movie career to fight for America. Let that sink in. I mean, do you think these selfish movie stars, self-centered, would even think of doing that? Even think of doing that today? Please. At least not the overwhelming majority. Maybe there’d be a few that are out there that actually would consider such a thing. But good grief. Talk about old Hollywood and new Hollywood. Jeez.

Teddy Nappen 01:26

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 01:57

I will say. I would have. This is no dig against Jimmy Stewart because it’s one of those I would have wanted if they’re gonna do any of the actors that served. I would love for them to do Lee Marvin. His whole story.

Evan Nappen 02:10

Oh, Lee Marvin was great, too.

Teddy Nappen 02:13

Where he has the craziest career, too. He was a scout sniper, 21 amphibious assaults, horribly injured and shot up.

Evan Nappen 02:23

Yeah, they could just do a series, like a mini series of actors who were the real deal. That played tough guys, but were actually the real deal. You know, Charles Bronson was. You had the guy, Christopher Lee. Holy crap, Christopher!

Teddy Nappen 02:44

Oh yeah, Christopher Lee. He was Wiki page.

Evan Nappen 02:51

I mean, Christopher Lee was advising on the movie and saying that’s not how a knife sounds when you jam it into somebody. You don’t have the sound right on that. That’s not how it goes. It’s not what the sound the person makes. It’s not the sound the knife makes. I mean, that’s some pretty detailed knowledge right there.

Teddy Nappen 03:07

If you’re ever bored, just click on the random page on his bio, and it gets crazier and crazier. Like, witness the last guillotining.

Evan Nappen 03:18

I know. The guy’s amazing. Yeah, and of course, there’s always Audie Murphy, of course.

Teddy Nappen 03:25

Yeah, of course. Page – 3 – of 13

Evan Nappen 03:26

Audie Murphy played himself in “To Hell and Back”. Audie Murphy is amazing, and he would be like one of the last guys if you looked at him to think that he’s one of the most decorated soldiers of the war. But he was also amazing, and you know, he made lots of other movies, too. Even though he’s most famous for “To Hell and Back”, but he did a lot of westerns and other things.

Teddy Nappen 03:52

I remember one of the underrated ones. I think it was like “The Duel at Silver Creek”. There’s moments where he’s actually like, he plays an anti-hero type where he’s like.

Evan Nappen 04:03

Yeah, a bastard, frankly. A son of a bitch.

Teddy Nappen 04:05

He plays like a.

Evan Nappen 04:06

Yeah he’s good.

Teddy Nappen 04:07

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 04:08

Not what you think of Audie Murphy.

Teddy Nappen 04:09

Right. He plays like the tough guy. It is very interesting that character but.

Evan Nappen 04:14

Yeah, yeah. And then he ended up dying in a plane crash because the pilot shouldn’t have been flying apparently, and you know, it’s a shame that we lost him. But yeah, he was great, and I mean he came from really, really humble beginnings. I mean dirt poor, crazy beginnings there for him. We’ve many of the great Hollywood actors who served their country really admirably. I mean even Scotty (James Montgomery Doohan), you know, from Star Trek. He was also a defender.

Teddy Nappen 04:17

What was he in?

Evan Nappen 05:03

Oh, he was military. I don’t remember exactly his background, but he was in some tough situations. He was known.

Teddy Nappen 05:08 Page – 4 – of 13

Well, he was miracle worker.

Evan Nappen 05:10

There’s so many of those guys, and I have a hard time trying to think of any modern actor that can maybe give that credibility to. I don’t know. Can’t think of any at all.

Teddy Nappen 05:24

Unfortunately, I’m drawing a heavy blank because. Oh wait, no, no, no. Adam Driver. Adam Driver. I believe he’s the guy that played Kylo Ren. He did. I believe he was in the Marines. But he was a veteran. So, but anyways, one thing I will say as we were reviewing these stories, I love how the Attorney General has their own YouTube and they were just like streaming alerts and announcements. “Attorney General Davenport Files Civil Complaint Against Pennsylvania Gun Show Owner for Endangering Public Safety” (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-davenport-files-civil-complaint-against-pennsylvania-gun-show-owner-for-endangering-public-safety/) So, that was what came up with the ad for Jimmy Stewart, and then there was this.

Evan Nappen 06:08

Right. Showing a pretty good contrast. So, Davenport has filed this complaint against the Pennsylvania gun show owner for “endangering public safety”. They filed because they’re abusing the civil lawsuit. You know, this is one of the anti-Second Amendment ploys of trying to litigate the Second Amendment out of existence. And so, what they’ve done here is they’ve gone after Jordan Vinroe of JSD Supply and Eagle Shows. So, if any of you have ever gone to the great Pennsylvania gun shows, you know, they’re really good. Because first of all there aren’t any gun shows of any kind, really, in New Jersey. There’s some militaria shows, but there’s no gun shows. But Pennsylvania is, if you’re in New Jersey and you want to hit a really great normal type gun show, you go to Pennsylvania. And some of the largest, best shows are put on by this promoter.

Teddy Nappen 07:24

The one that comes to mind, the Bloomsburg gun show. I think that was one we had gone to.

Teddy Nappen 07:29

Yeah, Eastern Gun X. Eastern Gun X.

Evan Nappen 07:29

Well, they have a whole series of shows. I believe they actually do some of the largest shows in Eastern Pennsylvania.

Evan Nappen 07:30

So, they do some of these 1000 table, 2000 table, these really huge shows. And what happened is they’re going after him, claiming he is intentionally and unlawfully selling to New Jersey residents kits and parts to make ghost guns. Untraceable firearms that are illegal in New Jersey. So, what is this really? This really is a pretext to go after gun shows. This isn’t really about the ghost guns. That’s just their vehicle. This is really about trying to stop gun shows. If you go after gun show promoters, this becomes the idea of civilly litigating out of, essentially out of existence. If they can do it, they’d love to Page – 5 – of 13

do it. Gun shows. So, we really have not just a violation of the Second Amendment, where what’s going on in Pennsylvania is completely lawful in Pennsylvania. Ghost guns are the pejorative term for simply a privately-made firearm. Americans have been making their own guns since before we were even officially a country. So, private firearms are not the boogeyman. But, of course, they give it the boogeyman name of “ghost guns” and then claim they’re untraceable.

Evan Nappen 09:14

Well, you know what? You tell me what firearm tracing has actually done to fight crime. Virtually nothing. It’s a lie that is perpetrated to give them a vehicle to make it look like they’re doing something about crime, which isn’t it, but more so to continue the agenda of oppression of Second Amendment rights. And here it is an attack on gun shows. That’s really what’s going on here. It’s not, you know, ghost guns, most gun. It ghost guns. Come on. First of all, anyone can build a gun with or without parts that you buy at a show anywhere. You can build a gun with pipes that you buy at Home Depot. Are we going to go after Home Depot because you can make slam bang shotguns easily, as we taught in the Philippines to do? Americans did that. You can.

Evan Nappen 10:20

You know, “American Guerrilla in the Philippines”, a famous book, movie, etc. What do you think they made? Slam bang shotguns. You take two pieces of pipe. One pipe fits in the other. On the end cap of the larger pipe, you have a nail with the point facing down the pipe. The other one slides in it like a trombone. You put a 12 gauge shell in there, and you slam it down. And bang, off it goes. It’s called a slam bang shotgun. Sometimes called four winds shotgun.

Teddy Nappen 10:55

Didn’t you?

Evan Nappen 10:58

Yeah, I mean this is, and this is even in the Frankfurt Arsenal, the famous “Black Books”. They’re very easy.

Evan Nappen 11:06

So, yeah, making a gun. They make guns in jails. They can make a gun. You can make them. So, this whole thing about privately made firearms and all is just a load of crap. Now, Jersey has banned “ghost guns” in a multiple ways. They talk about “unserialized firearms”. They talk about “manufacture of firearms”. They have different laws that address each of these things. All putting it under this category. And yet, under federal law, it’s not a problem to make your own firearm. Federal law even has regulations for if dealers get a privately made firearm, how to handle it and be able to actually lawfully sell it. They need to then take certain steps. We don’t have to get into that now. But it’s not a problem under federal law. It is a New Jersey, in this case, law that they’re attempting to use as a vehicle to bring the civil action against Pennsylvania. Something jurisdictioned in Pennsylvania, by claiming, oh well, you’re unlawfully selling to New Jersey residents.

Teddy Nappen 11:06

Poor man’s James Bond? Page – 6 – of 13

Evan Nappen 12:23

Well, I’ll tell you what. How about we take a look at marijuana sales in New Jersey? Do Pennsylvania residents come into New Jersey and ever buy marijuana? Look, marijuana is unlawful for recreational use in Pennsylvania, and it’s federally prohibited. It’s still a federal controlled, dangerous substance. So, New Jersey acts to aid and abet and facilitate one of the largest unlawful drug distributions in the country. Whereas privately made firearms are not a federal prohibition. Not a federal prohibition. Should Pennsylvania sue New Jersey because of somehow Pennsylvania residents buying weed in New Jersey being facilitated by New Jersey? I mean, this is what they’re attempting to do. And yet here, not only is it not a violation of federal law, but it is really an attack on Second Amendment rights. And let me tell you that. Go ahead., Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 13:30

I will also point out in the article. This is where the little trick is. If anyone ever listens to these people, they always do this trick where they start with a false premise when making their argument. “Ghost guns are frequently recovered at crime sites in New Jersey. Recent reports suggest that the number of ghost guns recovered in crime scenes increased eightfold between 2019 and 2022 — from 55 in 2019 to 433 in 2022.” Pause right there. I wonder. What happened around that time period where it caused people to want to have their own privately-made firearms and want to maybe 3D print and make their own? I wonder what little factor would have considered that. Secondly, all right, now show me the data of the amount of firearms recovered generally in crimes, and give me the percentage breakdown. Oh, it’s probably in the minuscule amount of percentages of firearms seized in New Jersey for crimes. Huh? I wonder. So, this isn’t that much of an epidemic, but we can’t show that, obviously. We won’t show that data. They just list off guns seized.

Evan Nappen 14:43

Teddy, we are in a new day and age because of President Trump. And one of the things that President Trump did is actually create, through the Justice Department. They actually created in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Justice Department, the Second Amendment Section. Now let me tell you what the Second Amendment Section of the Civil Rights Division of the Federal Government Department of Justice. Let me tell you right from their website. (https://www.justice.gov/crt/second-amendment-section) The Second, Fourth, and 14th Amendments, the Police Patterned or Practice Act, and Executive Order 14206 protecting the Second Amendment rights, secure the natural firearm rights of law-abiding citizens, and ensure that such rights to keep and bear arms will not be infringed. The mission of the Second Amendment Section is to ensure that law-abiding citizens may responsibly possess, carry, and use firearms. The Second Amendment Section will work diligently to investigate law enforcement agencies that engage in a pattern or practice of infringing on law-abiding citizens’ Second Amendment rights. As well as be proactive in searching for litigation opportunities to secure such rights.

Evan Nappen 16:19

The Second Amendment Section will also seek opportunities to advance a broad interpretation of the Second Amendment via statements of interest, motions to intervene, amicus briefs, and original lawsuits where applicable on behalf of Americans across the country. All attorneys within the Second Page – 7 – of 13

Amendment Section will advocate with zeal on behalf of the United States of America in furtherance of all objectives as tasked. And there, right at the website, at the Civil Rights Division, U.S. Department of Justice, the Second Amendment Section. You can go right online to that. We’ll have a link in the transcript. It says Section Information. Acting Chief Barry Arrington. “Report a civil rights violation.” So, listeners, if you see or hear or know of any civil rights violations on the Second Amendment, report them. Report them to the Federal Department of Justice.

Evan Nappen 17:28

I think this is something that the DOJ should consider going on in New Jersey. Where you actually are seeing an effort to go after gun shows, which is our freedom of association, which is our ability. You know, if you can’t buy guns, then you’re not going to be able to possess and carry something you cannot obtain. Second, ghost guns are not a violation of federal law. Third, this is talking about interstate issues. This is New Jersey and Pennsylvania. What could be more squarely within federal jurisdiction than one state going after activities in another state because the state that is going after them has laws that infringe on the Second Amendment and trying to enforce it in another jurisdiction via this mechanism of being able to abuse civil laws. So, there is potentially a solution here. And not only just about what New Jersey is doing here, but what New Jersey does across the board in so many ways of oppressing our Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 18:58

Now, this Second Amendment Section has done a number of things already. They sued California to halt the Glock ban. They sued Virginia over their unconstitutional weapons ban, assault firearm so-called ban. They sued them. They opened an investigation, by the way, into Philadelphia Police Department’s unconstitutional permit revocation process. They’ve sued Colorado for their ban on so-called assault firearms and magazines. They sued the District of Columbia for their ban, and they’ve gone after the Virgin Islands Police Department for unconstitutional practices in effective denials of permits. That’s just a sampling of what the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Justice Department is doing in the Second Amendment Section, and it’s time for New Jersey to be investigated. Because this has gone on for far too long in New Jersey. Our Second Amendment rights being trampled by New Jersey trying to do everything in its power to oppress Second Amendment rights. So, check it out, folks, and you will see that this is what happens when we say elections have consequences. Because this goes back to President Trump putting out his Executive Order, and you also have the Attorney General putting forward that they have their Second Amendment task force and setting up the Civil Rights Division. So, we can change how business is done.

Evan Nappen 20:52

Because prior to this, the Government, even the federal Government, took at best a neutral position, but normally there was no infringement that was too much as far as federal enforcement. No problem. Turned the other, you know, turned away from it. Couldn’t care less. Those are no longer the days today, and this is where a wake-up call needs to come out on our Second Amendment rights. Let me tell you. Go ahead, Teddy. Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 21:32 Page – 8 – of 13

Well, I was going to say. I was able to pull up Everytown’s research. (https://everytownresearch.org/report/gun-trafficking-crime-guns-new-jersey-data/) In 2023, New Jersey’s law enforcement seized 4,619 guns. So, going off of the data that the A.G. put out, that’s 9% of those firearms were “ghost guns”. Nine percent. It’s even less from those numbers. It is the level of insanity that these individuals pull. They’re just making a boogeyman out of something. That’s why.

Evan Nappen 22:06

They’re the boogeyman and a pretext to try to assert their agenda. It’s really what we’re talking about here. Absolutely. Well, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood where Teddy and I both shoot. We love WeShoot, and so will you. They have the top trainers for New Jersey. They have the full array from novice to advanced. They have some just great training programs. You can get your CCARE certification there. That’s what you need in order to get your New Jersey carry. They offer CCARE courses. They also offer the ability to get non-resident permits in other states. So, if you travel, you can take care of that through WeShoot. WeShoot is a great resource. It’s a resource that we’re very lucky to have. It’s harder and harder to find places to shoot, and without places to shoot, you can’t do too much with your guns. And WeShoot is there for you. Take advantage of it.

Evan Nappen 23:25

It’s a wonderful place. They’ve got a great pro shop. Great people, super nice, wonderful folks. They will bend over backwards to help you, and I’ve seen it firsthand. They’ve helped so many people to improve their skills, to learn about firearms, to learn the right way, proper way, how to be safe, how to be secure, and make sure that everything is done correctly. So that you don’t end up being a GOFU. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. That’s their website, weshootusa.com. You’ll be glad you did. Beautiful photography. They’re really first rate, and you’ll see why. They go the extra mile. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. They’re conveniently located right in Lakewood, New Jersey. Easily accessible right off the Garden State Parkway. You can do it. Go over there, and you’ll say, “Wow, why didn’t I come here sooner? That’s weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 24:44

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of Jersey Gun Law. You don’t want to be a GOFU. You need the book. It’s 120 topics, all question and answer. It’ll help guide you safely through the matrix of insanity called New Jersey gun laws, so that you can remain a law-abiding gun owner. That’s my purpose in writing it. You will see why it is the book used by lawyers, judges, State Police Firearms division, and beyond. If anybody who wants to know about New Jersey gun law, they always turn to New Jersey Gun Law by Evan Nappen. And if you want to get your copy, go to evannappen.com, EvanNappen.com. Order a copy, and you’ll have it within days. So, Teddy, what else do you have for us to discuss today? I’m going to toss the ball to you.

Teddy Nappen 25:44

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. If anyone’s been watching the news or anything or seen all the push from the Left, the thing they keep trying to go back to is they’re trying to address the mail problem. That’s their actual quote from the election groups that they do. Where they’re trying to figure out how do we. Page – 9 – of 13

Evan Nappen 26:11

Is that Post Office mail or as in what is a woman, male?

Teddy Nappen 26:16

You know. The white men, particularly, of the they have completely spurred off. One of the things that they’ve run into a foul, is you see this whole push where they try to reach issues, and they’ve gotten very, very quiet on the issue of firearms all of a sudden. Amazing, right? And even though you where you have like the James Talarico who’s still trying to tote gun control, but he’s trying to paint it off like, look, I’m for the Second Amendment. You know, I own a gun. All this.

Evan Nappen 26:52

Oh, it’s the I’m for the Second Amendment, but. It’s always the but.

Teddy Nappen 26:56

Always, but always,

Evan Nappen 26:57

But we should ban guns. I’m for the Second Amendment.

Teddy Nappen 27:01

But universal background checks, which will basically create a registry.

Evan Nappen 27:07

But we should eliminate gun shows off the face of the planet. But we should ban any gun that’s over 12 inches long and call it an assault firearm. But ban any gun under 12 inches and call it a Saturday night special. Other than that, I’m for the Second Amendment.

Teddy Nappen 27:23

Yeah, and you’ve been seeing that. Now you’ve noticed they’ve been losing a lot of ground to their “Democrat Socialists”. They’re just Marxists. If you look at the ideology of what they support, they are Marxists. Just go one to one. They are the same. They can’t dress it up any other way. So, I decided, you know what? Let’s see what’s on their page. What they actually feel about the Second Amendment. Because when it comes to Socialists now, they’ve kind of reached the they don’t know how to feel about firearms. They want to disarm the people because they believe in gun control, but they need arms for the revolution, always. So, it’s the gun owner dilemma for Socialists.

Teddy Nappen 28:06

So, I go to their web page and what do I find? (https://www.dsausa.org/blog/the_second_amendment_is_a_threat_to_us_all/) This goes back to 2018, mind you. So, now they’ve gotten very quiet. “The Second Amendment is a threat to us All.” That is the opening title, and they still have it on there. This is their reaction to the Parkland shooting. So, America touts itself as being a meritocracy, and we laugh. But on firearm policy, it is truly need blind. No matter your age, race, gender, creed, or sexual orientation, your inalienable right to life is perfectly alienable to Page – 10 – of 13

keep guns pouring into public and private lives. Okay. Which is why we think the only way to guarantee that we dramatically reduce the acts of violence involving guns is removing guns from society. Pause. Logical fallacy alert, everybody! Ding, ding, ding, ding. Logical fallacy. Reverse Nirvana. If we got rid of all the guns, that would stop the crime. They always try to push that, and we have the oomph. Okay, yeah. Repeal the Second Amendment. That’s going to happen. This is from 2018. Nope, still haven’t done it. But they point to, I don’t know if you remember this guy Carl Rove?

Evan Nappen 29:37

Oh yeah, Carl Rove, the pool shooter. Shooting at the pool? Yeah, yeah. After he’s anti-gun, but he uses a gun inappropriately even. Yeah, that guy, Mr. Hypocrite.

Teddy Nappen 29:49

Well, they highlight his quote. The only way to guarantee that we drastically reduce acts of violence involving guns is to basically remove them from society. Well, okay then. Then they go through this whole twisted history where they point to the 1970s. NRA stopped being enthusiast group and became a defense industry lobby. Then the new blood came with the Gun Control Act of ’68, which aimed to restrict firearm ownership in response to the fears of the group. I love how they say this. The fears of the Black Panthers. Yes, that’s why the ’68 Gun Control Act was born. That was the only reason. They wanted to disarm the Black Panthers. No other reason of why they tried to push the ’68 Gun Control Act. Dad, do you remember that? What would you say from your view of what was the driver to the ’68 Gun Control Act?

Evan Nappen 30:47

Oh my God! You know these people are just amazing, and as you see, they’re conflicted over their own platform. It’s crazy, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 31:02

Yeah, and well, they go even crazier. They go through this twisted history of rights. They go through Heller, basically determining you know the rights infringed, and they use Scalia’s answer. In Scalia’s admission, if we repeal the Second Amendment, private citizens could still own guns. The right to do so is granted to them by God or the English, whatever you’d like. Both Brett Stevens and Carl Rover certainly wouldn’t mind. So therefore, we’ve rewritten the Second Amendment. They wrote an amendment. They actually wrote. They wrote their example, the 28th Amendment, Dad. Here we go. The 28th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that they pushed for. The second article, the amendment of the Constitution of the United States, is hereby repealed. Okay, that gets to that. Two – manufacturing, transportation, importation into or out of any state, territory, or possession of United States delivery therein of a pump action, semi-automatic or automatic firearms is hereby prohibited. Three – article shall be inoperative unless it shall be ratified as the amendment to the Constitution by convention of several states, as provided by the Constitution within 10 years, the date of submission here off to the state by Congress. Well, they want a con con apparently. But just going back to that, banning pump action, semi-automatic and automatic firearms, removing that from the Second Amendment, Dad.

Evan Nappen 32:33 Page – 11 – of 13

Okay.

Teddy Nappen 32:34

You can have your gun, but they must be manually loaded.

Evan Nappen 32:36

Couple things. Number one, the Second Amendment is not our rights. It’s a guarantee of our rights. The rights to exist, whether or not we have a Second Amendment. But the Second Amendment is a guarantee against the Government of infringing on those rights. So, what they’re saying is, we want to revoke the guarantee of your rights and replace it with a lame-ass guarantee that we’re rewriting that won’t do anything except give us the opportunity to walk all over your rights. So, that’s really what they’re saying. But the really interesting thing here is this proposal to repeal the Second Amendment is all the anti-Second Amendment gun rights suppressor folks are going to have left.

Evan Nappen 33:23

We are on the path with the Second Amendment having been empowered by Heller, McDonald, and Bruen. And now we have Viramontes and Grant that, in my opinion, are going to absolutely crush assault firearm semi-automatic bans across the country. They are losing ground left and right. There are over 3,000 filed legal actions challenging gun laws. They are on the run. They’re losing, and they know it. The only thing they have left is actually what they’re asking for here, and that is to repeal the Second Amendment. We will never let them repeal the guarantee of our rights, and that’s what we must insist upon. These are our rights, and they’re guaranteed. We want that guarantee enforced. And now that they see the guarantee is finally being enforced, they cannot stand it. They are losing, and they’re going to continue to lose.

Teddy Nappen 34:31

I will say, I love the ending to the article where the individual. We are aware non-white and marginalized groups whose rights are routinely violated by the police may view this both as restricting and their ability to protect themselves or causing unwarranted searches and harassments for the criminal justice. We in no way support any measure that would increase the scope and scale of police violence. This provision outlined in amendment would have universal application. So, in other words, don’t worry. This affects everybody. There’s going to be no racial discrimination about enforcing these laws, Dad. Huh? Right. Cut to what was it? John Petrolino’s article where he pulled the data?

Evan Nappen 35:19

Yeah. Exactly what we’re dealing with in New Jersey. Where blacks are already more than two to one discriminated against in just permit issuance. So, yeah, we know where this is. It’s just absurd.

Teddy Nappen 35:31

Well, they literally go with the “trust me, bro”. It’ll be we’re not racist. We’re just gonna ruin it. We’re gonna screw it over for everybody.

Evan Nappen 35:38 Page – 12 – of 13

But keep in mind, this is laughable right now, but it’s actually not. This is going to be the push that we’re going to see. It’s going to be a major push to repeal the Second Amendment. Because it’s all they have left, and that’s what we’re going to see. That and abusing the tort system in any way they can – civil actions. You know, to somehow create these abilities for trying to litigate guns out of existence. That and repealing the Second Amendment. That’s what they’re left with on their game plan. We just need to remain vigilant.

Teddy Nappen 36:16

So, bear in mind. I will say, bear in mind, they still push for red flag in the other articles they’ve had. They still push for all the required measures where you have to get everything registered, and they’re still for limiting, removing ARs and anything they deem unsafe or scary.

Evan Nappen 36:39

I hear you, and this is so typical. But we’re winning. That’s what’s important. We’re winning. Except when there’s GOFUs. GOFUs, as you know, are Gun Owner Fuck Ups. That’s where gun owners make big mistakes that cost them, technically, it could cost them their career, their family, their fortunes, their freedom. It’s bad news. So, you want to not be a GOFU. And what we like to do here is talk about GOFUs so that you don’t become one. You get to learn for free what others have paid dearly for. Teddy, what do you think the GOFU is this week? You know. What are we talking about?

Teddy Nappen 37:26

Well, for me, the GOFUs are always about “stop talking to the police”.

Evan Nappen 37:34

Oh my G-d. Stop talking to the police! Like, you know, we talk about basics. It is so basic. Shut up. You know you have a right to remain silent. Now, whether or not you have the ability to, I guess, becomes another question. But you have the right, and you need to stand on your right. You need to ask for your attorney and remain silent. You need to stand on your rights. And over and over again, we see clients that blow that and end up making their situation incredibly worse, incredibly worse. Because not only does anything you say can and will be used against you. Anything you say will be twisted against you. The safest, best route every time is standing on your rights. It’s that simple. And let me tell you, folks, if you’re ever read Miranda rights, oh my God, shut the f up! If you are read Miranda rights, sirens should be going off. Fireworks should be shooting. Flags should be waved. Shut up! Anyone who talks after Miranda, I just can’t even understand. They’re warning you. They’re telling you. Oh, you just wave your right. Oh, you’ll just talk to them. What are those silly rights they’re telling me about

Evan Nappen 39:04

I’ll tell you one of the problems is – television. Television has conditioned many Americans to giving up their rights. Oh, I’ll just talk to them. I’ll just explain it. I’ll just yak away. And you know what? You end up burying yourself. Over and over and over again. I see it. I cannot believe it. If you are ever across one of those metal tables, being interrogated by police, and you’re talking, you are the world’s biggest GOFU. That should never happen. If you’ve been read Miranda, that talking across that table that should not be happening. If you let that happen, you’re a fool. You are absolutely a fool. I can’t make it any clearer. Page – 13 – of 13

Evan Nappen 39:55

It reminds me of Jan Davis. I don’t know if you know about her. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/parachutist-plunges-to-death/) She was part of a movement to allow the ability to try to legalize base jumping at national parks. At Yosemite, she jumped off of El Capitan. Now, she was a pretty experienced jumper, and she did this as a protest. She was wearing criminal stripes outfit. You know the classic black and white stripes of the classic prison outfit, right? And it was to make a statement, of course. But it’s really a statement here because she jumped off El Capitan, El Capitan, and it was in 1999 as a protest against the ban. She was trying to make a statement that this is safe and should be allowed. She jumped, and ended up going splat. That’s right. Her parachute didn’t open. She couldn’t get it opened, unfortunately. My understanding is she had used some other equipment instead of her own. She didn’t know where the pull was on this particular one, and unfortunately, she ended up just going splat.

Evan Nappen 40:19

To me, Jan Davis jumping off El Capitan there is what happens when you are read Miranda and talk. You ended up in a big splat like Jan Davis. That’s what you do. And keep in mind, she was wearing that prisoner outfit when it happened. So, folks, stand on your rights. Don’t be a good a GOFU. Don’t end up splattering yourself on the gun rights oppression and insane matrix of New Jersey gun laws. Should you ever be put in that situation – shut up!

Evan Nappen 42:09

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 42:23

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E299_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 298-NJ Assaulting Our Rights… AgainAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 11

Gun Lawyer Transcript – Episode 298

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey gun laws, assault firearm ban, Supreme Court, Vera Montes, Grant cases, Assembly Bill 442, semi-automatic rifles, detachable magazine, draconian penalties, property rights, gun rights, sensitive places, reparations, We Shoot USA, gun owner mistakes.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

This is Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:20

and I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:23

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, New Jersey is at it again. What, Teddy? Go ahead. What we gonna say, buddy?

Teddy Nappen 00:31

Well, I was gonna say, you wouldn’t believe the stuff that they’re trying to cycle through on social media. They’re trying to now push the whole, “you’re afraid we’re going to take your guns away, and we’re afraid you’re going to take our children away. Which one is unfounded? Like it’s.

Evan Nappen 00:53

Yeah! Which one’s unfounded, yeah. Well, being that the anties never give up, those that want to crush our rights and oppress us. New Jersey, of course, always has to lead the way on doing that. And so now, as we discussed last show, we’re all very excited at the Viramontes and Grant cases that are combined and have been granted certiorari by the U.S. Supreme Court. This means they’re finally going to get a decision out of the Supreme Court determining the constitutionality of so-called “assault weapon” ban. But what is New Jersey’s response when these things happen? They’re like the Iranians. When New Jersey makes their gun oppression policy, they act like the Iranians. They double down on threats. They double down on trying to convince us that they are just going to make life miserable for us, and they do it various ways.

Evan Nappen 02:13

Their current response is essentially an assault firearm law radical enhancement. That’s right. So, here we realize that the entire concept of banning semi-automatic firearms is, my money is solidly on that is going up in flames. As we talked about before, this is finally, I believe, on the road to destruction. This whole political fight that has harmed so many good people. Ruined law-abiding citizens’ lives. Taken Page – 2 – of 11

their destroyed families’ fortunes, and taken away freedom and rights. This nightmare, I believe, is going to end. But it’s actually even more excitement over when that end might take place, that we’ll talk about in a little bit. In between, leave it to New Jersey to propose even more, even worse, even more draconian laws, particularly on the dreaded, intrinsically evil “assault firearms”. That’s right, New Jersey calls them “assault firearms”. Sometimes they’re called, in other jurisdictions, in federal law, “assault weapons”.

Teddy Nappen 03:46

It’s a hoplosexual term.

Evan Nappen 03:49

Yeah, you’re right. It’s a term that’s just concocted, so that they can make up lists of guns to ban and to make as far-reaching a ban to turn as many law-abiding citizens into criminals as they possibly can. So, New Jersey filed a new bill. It is Assembly Bill 442 . (https://pub.njleg.state.nj.us/Bills/2026/A0500/442_I1.PDF) This is New Jersey’s incredible doubling down on their assault firearm law, and I wanted to just go through with you. This law, because whether it’ll pass or not, who knows? Even if it does pass, this stuff I believe is going down in flames and will no longer be anything they can pass laws about. Dead. Gone. Done.

Evan Nappen 04:50

Sort of like what happens when you enrage a bull elephant. You know, African elephants and Indian elephants are different. African elephants are extremely ornery, mean, tough. Republicans, you know, picked the elephant as their symbol. Sometimes I think about when we get the good elephant, when we get the African version of the elephant, and they actually do what’s needed. I think we’re going to see that here through the judicial system, which now has plenty of great judges, thanks to President Trump appointing conservative judges. The bull elephants of Africa, they do not just kill you. They eliminate you! They crush you and crush you and crush you until there’s nothing left. You can’t even be picked up with a stick and a spoon. That’s how much they disintegrate when they are riled up and attacking. I suspect that we are going to see the African bull elephant happen to this entire agenda of “assault firearm bans”.

Evan Nappen 06:10

But until then, let’s look at what they want to do. Because if it doesn’t go that way, if it’s somehow upheld that these things can be prohibited and banned, and our rights can be walked upon in this manner, here’s what New Jersey is doing to the current “assault firearm” definition. Let’s actually look at what they’re saying. So, of course, we have the current law that we’re all familiar with. It has a list of 67 guns, and then they say “substantially identical” and that had never been effectively defined. We had case law that said “substantially identical” means the 1994 Crime Bill definition, which was amazing, since that was four years after New Jersey passed their law. How our legislators knew that an unconstitutional law would be saved by a federal law that was passed four years later, I don’t know. Somehow the court put that forward. We’ve lived under that for now. Page – 3 – of 11

Evan Nappen 07:08

But what they’re doing is they are now going to incorporate and define the specificity in the statute, the term substantially identical. By claiming that any of these above guns and platforms, you know, the 67 intrinsically evil semi-automatic firearms on that list, will now include under the term of “substantially identical” a semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine. That’s step one. Any semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the following features. So, currently we have a two feature requirement. This is now any one of these features, and your semi-automatic firearm that takes a detachable magazine becomes contraband. Becomes banned. Becomes unlawful for you to possess with no lawful way of possessing it. There’s no grandfathering in this bill.

Evan Nappen 08:20

If you’re caught possessing it, the penalty is so draconian it defies belief. It’s up to 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory, mandatory, minimum three and a half years in State Prison, no chance of parole. If you get convicted of possession of an assault firearm, even right now in New Jersey, no less this expanded list that we’re going to look at in a minute, we are talking about the judge having no discretion whatsoever, and having to impose at least three and a half years in State Prison. And folks, if you have an assault firearm and you’re possessing one, if you get caught with it, you’re looking at that penalty right now. Hopefully we’re going to get all this won, and I honestly believe we will. But just in case it doesn’t, or if you get nailed before that happens, you’re looking at insanity in terms of a prison sentence.

Evan Nappen 09:16

So how does this new definition with one feature? What are the single features that make a semi-automatic rifle that takes a detachable magazine intrinsically evil and must be banned at the second degree, felony level, where you’re looking at 10 years and a minimum mandatory three and a half in prison for just having any one of the following features? Number one, a folding or telescoping stock. Wow, you know how important a folding or telescoping stock is when it comes to fighting crime. I mean, a telescoping stock that moves one or two inches back or forth. I mean, that’s like an entire crime wave into itself, right? If you have that feature on your gun, you’re looking at the offense I just outlined.

Teddy Nappen 10:09

Wasn’t there a case, Dad. Wasn’t there a case that you had where if you had a folding stock, it was deemed an assault firearm?

Evan Nappen 10:17

Well, that’s exactly what it is. A folding stock or telescoping stock currently is, but wait.

Teddy Nappen 10:24

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 10:24

One feature, though – just one. Try another, a pistol grip. If you have any rifle semi-auto that takes a mag and it has a pistol grip, it’s contraband. It’s banned. You’re looking at draconian sentencing and Page – 4 – of 11

punishment for your possession. Even though you lawfully bought it from a dealer. Even though you had a firearms ID card and went through all the vetting, went through a NICS check. It doesn’t matter, doesn’t matter one bit. You’re going to State Prison. If it has a thumb hole stock, one feature, a thumb hole stock. That’s all it takes. It’s an assault firearm. A second hand grip or protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand. A second hand grip. Every rifle has a forearm that’s a second hand grip. What are you grabbing it with? Your dick? No, this is outrageous. It’s stupid. It’s a hand grip. Well, if your semi-auto rifle has a hand grip, it’s an assault firearm.

Evan Nappen 11:37

A bayonet mount. Oh my gosh, a bayonet mount. That’s because of all the drive-by bayonetings, of course. If you have a flash suppressor or a muzzle brake, if you’re just trying to tame recoil, it doesn’t matter. A muzzle compensator. A threaded barrel designed to accommodate. If you just have the threads on there. A flash suppressor, a muzzle brake, or a muzzle compensator. They want you having lots of recoil on your gun, lots of recoil. Can’t tame that recoil. They don’t want you to have any accuracy in your shooting or ability to shoot without muzzle rise. I mean, what the hell? Insanity. It doesn’t matter. A grenade launcher. Well, if you have a grenade launcher, that’s one thing. Having grenades, that’s another. And can you believe they want to prohibit us from having grenade launchers? What about all of us that go out grenade launching on the weekends? I mean, that really sucks, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Evan Nappen 12:39

Then semi-automatic shotguns. Let’s look at shotguns. A semi-automatic shotgun that has any one of the following: a folding or telescoping stock, a thumb hole stock, thumb hole stock on a shotgun? I don’t know, maybe. I guess they’re out there. Who cares if it has a thumb hole? It doesn’t matter. Thumb hole stock. Maybe some of those trap guns have some of the interesting designs that we sometimes see. Well, they’re going to be an assault firearm under this bill. A second hand grip or a protruding grip held by the non-triggering hand. A second hand grip. Well, folks, if your semi-auto shotgun, and this just says semi-auto shotgun, it doesn’t have to be mag fed, so my friends, if your Remington 1100 or you’re Remington 1187 or you’re Benelli or you’re Browning, you’re A5 or your standard good old reliable semi-auto shotgun that you inherited from your grandpa, if it has a forearm on it. Gee, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a semi-auto shotgun that doesn’t have a forearm on it, where you grip it with your hand, that shotgun becomes an “assault firearm”.

Evan Nappen 12:58

What are they doing with pistols? A semi-automatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable. magazine and has at least one of the following. So, basically every semi-automatic pistol that uses a detachable magazine, which is, oh, maybe 99% of all pistols, right? Hence, what semi-automatic pistols are, which are, except for some exceptions, a few exceptions, they’re magazine fed. I know the Keltec uses the stripper clip deal into a fixed mag. Maybe you have an old broom handle that uses a stripper clip into a fixed mag, but short of that, just about every pistol out there immediately has the ability to accept a detachable mag. And if your pistol has a folding or thumb hole stock, and of course they’ll view a pistol brace as that, because New Jersey can interpret it their own way. A thumb hole stock. A second hand grip or protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand. There are, of course, Page – 5 – of 11

larger revolvers, some that utilize even a form of a horizontal forearm. We’ve seen different grips that can go on other types of pistols.

Evan Nappen 14:07

So, attention all fuds. Attention all fuds who think, who cares about “assault firearms”? It doesn’t affect me. Well, guess what? All your semi-auto shotguns with forearms become assault firearms overnight, if this bill gets signed into law. A fixed magazine capacity exceeding six rounds. The ability to accept a detachable magazine. So, if you have any semi-auto shotgun that uses a detachable magazine. It doesn’t matter how many the mag hold. If it can accept a detachable mag, it’s instantly an “assault firearm”.

Teddy Nappen 16:22

Isn’t there a mod you can do for Desert Eagles?

Evan Nappen 16:24

Sure. There’s all that stuff out there. You’re right. A capacity, now, here’s this. It’s just absolutely weird. Listen to this. A capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip. So, if your pistol can hold, outside of the pistol grip, an extra magazine. It doesn’t mean that the magazine has to actually function. But if you have a handgun that has some capacity to hold an extra mag, then that’s an “assault firearm”. If your pistol has.. I don’t even.. I guess there are some..

Teddy Nappen 17:10

I think they’re referring to, you know, when you tape mags together, sometimes.

Evan Nappen 17:14

I guess. Well, I don’t even know if that’s possible on a pistol. Or if you have some type of magazine holder that is somehow attached to a gun. I don’t even know what they are referring to. Maybe the Roneys. You know, where your Glock goes in the Roney, and you can have an extra mag up there that you can just grab. I don’t know. But if it can do it. Here’s a great one. A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencers. Oh, a threaded barrel. So, now, because your pistol has a threaded barrel and you just want to have a compensator on there, or extra barrel weight. Single feature. It’s an assault firearm.

Evan Nappen 18:01

Any handgun with a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more, when the pistol is unloaded. And then thrown in, I guess, for laughs, is a semi-automatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun, or firearm. A semi-automatic version of an automatic. So, what are semi-automatic versions of full automatic firearms? Well, that’s going to now include, well, obviously your semi-auto Thompsons that are legal. They’re going to be illegal. Any semi- automatic. Then the entire class of ARs, right? That, of course, will fall under that. So, this isn’t even handguns. That’s just as a general catch-all that it’s any semi-auto. And most semi-autos are versions of what are otherwise full auto or select fire guns. Just about every semi auto rifle out there, you know. Very few that aren’t that. I mean, you may find some exceptions, but good grief. Look at the stroke of coverage. That isn’t even a feature bill, that isn’t even a feature bill. Page – 6 – of 11

Evan Nappen 19:23

Even if you have a semi-automatic rifle that used any kind of magazine. It doesn’t have to be a detachable magazine, anything, or a semi-automatic version of an automatic shotgun, rifle, or firearm. Wait a minute. Broom handles that we talked about not having a detachable mag would seem to be legal. But under this new bill, now they’re illegal, because broom handles also had a happy switch at a certain point. And a semi- automatic version of it is now going to be flat out illegal, even though it doesn’t use a detachable magazine. So, you can see how far back and how far reaching and how broad this insanity is.

Teddy Nappen 20:12

Wouldn’t it also meet the weight category? Didn’t they say, like, what is it, 50 ounces or something?

Evan Nappen 20:18

No, I think it’s under on that, but look, I’m not sure. I haven’t weighed a broom handle in a while, but hey, it could be. The bottom line, folks, is this is what they see as important to do. They see this as something that has to get done to us. To turn us all into criminals. Doubling down facing what is going to happen in the courts, and that’s where I really want to tell you. As crappy as this bill is, as insane and stupid as this bill is, the bottom line is we are positioned beautifully for the death of this insanity, finally, finally. And that’s not just because of Viramontes and Grant being decided by the U.S. Supreme Court, but our own cases that are currently in the Third Circuit Court of Appeals with the en banc panel. We’re going to see decisions coming out both on “sensitive places” and on “assault firearms”, and we’re going to see those decisions before we even see the Supreme Court rule in about a year on “assault firearms”. I believe within the next few months. Because we have a panel that appears to be one of the most respectful of the Second Amendments of any appellate circuit federal court out there, I believe we’re going to see our New Jersey suffering end sooner than even the Supreme Court’s death knell that should happen in June 2027. So, we have a lot to be positive about. The positive is this is really positioned to finally be crushed like a bull elephant smashing its prey into absolute oblivion, and I’m gonna be extremely happy when that day comes. And after that, my friends. Go ahead. What, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 22:30

Well, I’m just kind of thinking back to when you were starting off, Dad. Think to the New Jersey for the assault to the assault weapon ban, the original assault weapon ban, where that came into play, just thinking along lines of like what were the what was the arguments, and like what was the things they used as their tactics.

Evan Nappen 22:50

Well, I can tell you, folks, the history. Back in late 1989. I actually become attorney in 1988. They passed the bill that became effective in May of 1990. New Jersey’s assault firearm ban. And I remember back then we did not have the Second Amendment established by Heller and McDonald and Bruen. We did not have the test of constitutionality with the historical analog requirements, etc. We did not have any of that. We didn’t even have a court declaring that the Second Amendment was an individual right. We all knew that it was a violation then of the Second Amendment, because we all knew what the Second Amendment meant. But we didn’t have the juice. The case law didn’t exist. Page – 7 – of 11

Evan Nappen 23:48

So, our approach at the time, which was initially successful, was going at the vagueness of the statute itself, which worked in Merrill. That’s how New Jersey’s law evolved when they brought the federal case over that. But we had arguments then, and it did turn thousands and thousands of citizens into criminals. and still does to this day. Looking now, years later, 30 plus years now later, we’re finally going to see the end of it. It’s been a long time coming, but we will win this. It took a long time, but what we’ve established in getting to this point will protect freedom for generations. And that’s something I’m proud of, because I was a small part of that. All of you that have fought for our rights are all part of it, and we’re seeing history right before our eyes.

Evan Nappen 24:58

But you’ve got to know, you’ve got to understand that this law has been devastating to so many people. It has destroyed and harmed. It has caused far more harm than any firearm has actually caused in terms of the absolute destruction to law-abiding citizens. When you look at how small the numbers are for deaths and such from these particular guns, it’s minuscule compared to just how many people have suffered. And that’s why, my friends, after we get this victory, I want reparations for gun owners. That’s right. Reparations for gun owners who suffered under New Jersey’s tyrannical laws that destroyed, harmed, and took away rights. Listen, reparations here, we have real victims that are alive today, not generations ago. Alive now that have paid a price for this insanity by New Jersey, and they deserve reparations. We’ll be talking more about that after we destroy this horrible, most horrible of infringements. Calling it an infringement, actually, is almost doing it a disservice. It’s an atrocity, an atrocity passed by New Jersey. So, stay tuned. These are good times. I’m extremely cautiously optimistic for us, and you should be as well.

Evan Nappen 26:43

Hey, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, an indoor range. It’s the range where Teddy and I love to shoot. It is a fantastic resource. You will love WeShoot. Many of you already shoot there. They have great training. They have great pro shop, and they can get you equipped. They can get you everything you need, so that you can stay sharp, focused, trained, and practiced with your gun,. Because if you don’t shoot your gun, what good is it? You’ve got to keep the skill set and keep your training. Make sure you’re on it. It’s super important. WeShoot is a great resource, right there in Central Jersey, conveniently off the Parkway in Lakewood, New Jersey. You can go to weshootusa.com. They have a great website. We love WeShoot, and so will you. Their training is first rate. Get your CCARE certificate so that you can get your carry. You can get advanced training or basic training. You can have the most fundamental. If you have someone in your family who doesn’t know a thing about guns, they can get their start the right way at WeShoot. If you have someone, maybe even yourself, that’s really advanced and want top of the line advanced training, they can provide you with those services there, too. They’re the best. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 28:29

And while you’re at it, make sure you get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the bible of New Jersey Gun Law. It’s a book everybody uses, judges, lawyers, firearms division, you name it. It’s Page – 8 – of 11

the guidebook to help you from becoming a GOFU. You don’t want to become a GOFU and that’s one of the best ways of avoiding it. Knowing the insanity of New Jersey so you don’t get caught up in the traps that they lay for law-abiding gun owners. So, they cannot turn them into criminals, and then shout to the stupid general public to make it look like they’re doing something about crime when it has nothing whatsoever to do with it, except destroying their counter voter constituency. That’s the reality of what they’re about. So, be smart. Get a copy of my book at EvanNappen.com. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today. Teddy, what else do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 29:33

As you know, Press Checks are always free, and there’s something that seems to be coming up more and more. As we know, the Left on their last legs when it comes to their attacks on our rights, particularly with the victories that we’re having, and the ones that we’re going to have in the Supreme Court, all the challenges. But I will give them credit as they get more and more creative and look for other ways to abuse. So, this goes back a year ago, and this was from Gun News Daily. This is under Platkin from the Office of New Jersey Attorney General. (https://gunnewsdaily.com/n-j-offers-free-decals-for-gun-free-zones/) They were offering free gun-free zone decals to establishments wishing to register as designated gun-free areas under the sensitive places law. So, they were actually trying to disarm you in the best way they can. Just getting a bunch of individuals who have their property, any place, storefronts, whatever, and say no. No guns allowed. Don’t defend yourself. And this brings into an issue that I find important. It is a clash of rights, where it is the argument of property rights versus our gun rights. And look, we’ve seen the abuse of property, where you have people coming on to it. You see the squatter issues, and you see many on that end. But when it comes to gun rights, which is our civil right, it’s something that I think is going to come to blows eventually, and I think this needs to be handled.

Evan Nappen 31:06

Well, particularly after the Hawaii case, where now the vampire rule is unconstitutional. We’re going to see more regarding sensitive places when the Third Circuit Appeals decision, which should come out shortly on with Koons. The Koons decision on New Jersey’s sensitive places, and I’m excited to see what the panel has to say. But you’re right, Teddy. What they’ll try to do is they’ll try to pit property rights versus gun rights, and they’ll try to still encourage private entities to put up ” gun” signs. This way the clash between property rights and gun rights has to get figured out, because yeah, we have the Hawaii case that talks about places open to the public where the federal government cannot make a law regarding that.

Evan Nappen 32:04

But a private entity still has the ability over their private property to decide who can go on it. So, they can say no shoes, no shirt, no service. They can say no animals, no whatever. There’s different things property owners, you know. But the line gets drawn over race because of civil rights. You can’t say no blacks or no Jews or no Hispanics. You can’t do that, but you can limit other things on your property. So, I believe strongly in property rights, and I also believe strongly, big surprise, in gun rights. But what happens is many times with rights there’s a clash of rights. Property rights and gun rights may have a clash here if a property owner doesn’t want guns on their property. Where do we draw the line? Does my right under the Second Amendment, my fundamental, God-given right to defend myself with the Page – 9 – of 11

most effective means, does that right that I have to do that, which is a right 100% established, no question about it. Does that right override or supersede a property owner’s property rights? And that’s where the antis will play that game. They’ll try to get property rights made superior to gun rights, but in reality, that should not be the case. It should be the opposite. Gun rights should be put on the very same plane as civil rights. It is a civil right, and I mean in the same way that you aren’t allowed to exercise racial discrimination, you also cannot discriminate against individuals that are exercising their Second Amendment right, their individual right to keep and bear arms. It belongs in the same class.

Teddy Nappen 34:09

Just to go into, like, where the test would be needed for when it, if the Supreme Court ever took a case on this. Basically it would acquire the equal protection clause to where that falls into the category of strict scrutiny, where we’re in the grouping where it’s like you cannot discriminate race, religion, creed, and gun owner, effectively, where you well kind of like.

Evan Nappen 34:31

I don’t know. I don’t know if that is a test that will be utilized or not. Because if it’s gun rights, then we have to go back to that historical analog, but when it comes to property rights and how far you can assert it, it’s somewhat of an open question. I can tell you this. Any business stupid enough to put a sign out there that no guns are allowed. So that you are effectively disarming every one of your customers. Get ready to get your ass sued off when a crime occurs in your place of business, and you disarmed the defender who could have otherwise defended themselves. You want that lawsuit? Because that’s what you’re going to get. That’s exactly what you’re going to get. So, think real hard before you put up a “no guns allowed” sign, because the “no guns allowed” sign is also saying sue me if a crime occurs here, and you couldn’t defend yourself. That’s also what that sign says, just not in writing on it.

Teddy Nappen 35:37

Was there a case where someone was forced to disarm, and they were either shot or injured because they were disarmed?

Evan Nappen 35:47

I believe there have been, but I don’t have them right at my fingertips. But I’ll tell you what. I don’t see a problem with that cause of action. I don’t see a problem because there is tort action in New Jersey called failure to provide adequate security. So, businesses have a duty to provide adequate security. If they ban someone who has a carry license from carrying a gun and protecting themselves, and they have a duty, which they do have, to provide adequate security, then I can well see an excellent civil lawsuit taking place under their duty to provide adequate security. In fact, making the premises less secure by taking away not just a permit to carry holder, but a trained permit to carry holder. And why do I say they’re trained? Because training, my friends, is part of getting your carry permit, isn’t it? In the Carry Killer law, what do they require? CCARE. You’re trained. Trained in what? Use of force. When you can and can’t shoot. Trained in what? How to shoot safely. You must pass and qualify. So, they are stopping state-qualified individuals who have a permit to carry from lawfully defending themselves, and then failing to provide adequate security to those people who they mandated disarm themselves. Good luck with that civil suit. Dumb ass business for putting that sign up. Good luck with that. Page – 10 – of 11

Teddy Nappen 37:34

I’m still waiting on New Jersey trying to force the where they require that class. I remember it was EveryTown was running those stupid classes for training them up for firearms, and it was just a long propaganda wing that they just go through all their talking points. There was barely any knowledge being taught in actually handling the firearms. I’m waiting for New Jersey to force you to take that particular course, so I guess that’d be another abuse to that as well. Who knows?

Evan Nappen 38:07

And then those will be challenged too, but the good news is we’re making tremendous progress. I believe really great things are soon on the way here, and I mean within reach. It’s going to be great. But in the meantime, we still have GOFUs taking place, Teddy. We have Gun Owner Fuck Ups. GOFUs, as you know, are expensive mistakes that clients and others have made, and I want to always advise my beloved listeners, about these GOFUs. So that you can learn for free the mistakes that others have made. One of the GOFUs that we see a lot, and I mean a lot, folks, is not knowing what’s in your handbag. Not knowing what’s in your suitcase. Not knowing what’s in your briefcase. When I say not knowing, I mean forgetting that your gun is there. You may think, why would I ever forget that my gun is there? But oh my god, we get the airport cases. We get the folks that are visiting historical places where they have screening. We get cases where people are going to amusement parks. We have all these sporting events, entertainment events, etc. And they’re bringing their backpack, or they’re using a range bag or something that they had used to go to the range or something. Where they had traveled with a gun, and forgot.

Evan Nappen 39:43

Folks, be extra careful. Just like Press Checks are free, it’s absolutely free for you to thoroughly and completely empty your purse, empty your bag, empty your suitcase, empty your briefcase, check every pocket. Make sure it’s empty, and then put in what you need. Make sure that you’re not carrying by accident a gun, a magazine, or ammunition. I’ve seen it all, and these things lead to criminal charges. Often they lead to you facing draconian penalties and losing your gun rights. Make sure that you double check any of these bags and make sure you know the places that you’re going as to whether you’re going to be security screened.

Evan Nappen 40:40

I’ve had many clients say they walked up and they saw that there was a metal detector or screening taking place, and instead of just turning around, going back to the car, because they suddenly remembered they have it, they figure, well, I’ll just tell them about it. I’ll just be honest and say, look, I have it. What do you want me to do? GOFU. GOFU. If you do that, boom! Next thing you know, the police are involved. Don’t ever go through those security checkpoints of any type with any kind of firearm, accessory, ammo, or anything. It causes tremendous grief, and is one of the top GOFUs that we see every day.

Evan Nappen 41:33

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Page – 11 – of 11

Speaker 3 41:44

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E298_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 297- SCOTUS Win on Assault FirearmsAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 15

Gun Lawyer — Episode 297 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court, assault weapons, Second Amendment, gun rights, New Jersey, NRA, firearm laws, Heller decision, McDonald, Bruen, reparations, gun control, concealed carry, Thomas Jefferson, gun lawyer.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 1

Speaker 1 00:11

Lawyer,

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:22

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, my friends, I have to tell you, this is just one of the greatest moments in what I would have to say in our fight to destroy gun rights suppression. It is just a banner time right now. Absolutely, a crescendo at a moment here that I’m just so excited about. Truly, truly excited, no joke. The Supreme Court of the United States has granted certiorari, meaning accepted the case, so that it means there will be an opinion, a decision, a rule made by the Court finally on so-called “assault weapons”. (https://thereload.com/supreme-court-to-decide-constitutionality-of-ar-15-bans/)

Evan Nappen 01:27

Yes, we’ve done it. We have finally gotten to where the U.S. Supreme Court is going to look at the impact of the Second Amendment on this issue. I can tell you that I’ve personally been battling and fighting in the state of New Jersey since it was first enacted in May of 1990. Looking back to those days, I remember just thinking, man, hopefully we’ll one day get the United States Supreme Court to deal with this issue. But back then there was no Heller decision. There was no Supreme Court decision that even said that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right. We didn’t even have that back then. And when the anti-gun rights crowd embarked on this brand new approach, which it was at the time.

Evan Nappen 02:38

To understand the history and where we are right now, why it just is so meaningful, you need to understand that the gun rights attack, the effort by our adversaries, to destroy our right to keep and bear arms, basically, in modern times, started after World War One. It was essentially imported here Page – 2 – of 15

from the U.K., from Great Britain. It had gotten its roots there, and it came across the pond like a cancer. It percolated to the point where by 1934 we ended up with the first National Firearms Act. Prior to ’34 but after World War One, you saw states passing state laws of what we commonly call gun control laws. And the gun control laws of those days first initiated through the ’20s, and we still have remnants of those laws still on the books, by the way, in New Jersey and other places. They were put forward by state legislatures and enacted, and those gun laws were mirrored and influenced and encouraged by what was taking place originally in Great Britain.

Evan Nappen 04:22

These laws in America at that time period, and you may find this surprising, and it’s not meant to be bashing in any way of NRA. But they were even supported and promoted by the NRA at that time. The NRA had even put forward what were called the “model firearm laws”. They put model laws together that they wanted states to pass. The NRA saw its mission then in a naive, unfortunately, you know, very naive, as certain gun laws and such, that they would support. Now, since then, that’s not their position, and they’ve learned from this naive mistake. But it led to the 1934 Act, and we’ve suffered under that this entire time. It became the first national gun rights oppression law. Even at the time in the “American Rifleman”, you could read it, and they even praised it. They said, “Ah, and this is how they viewed it. You’ve got to understand, put yourself in the time. They said, “Ah, we’ve solved the gun problem in America.” We’ve passed this great national law, and now we’ve resolved it. We’ve solved it. We’ve addressed it. It’s done. And, of course, it was far from done. But for approximately 30 plus years, that was about it for our national laws on guns being passed.

Evan Nappen 06:00

Then along comes the ’68 Gun Control Act, which built upon, to a certain degree, of course, built upon the NFA. We already had that national law and then the ’68 law. Then ’72 and then ’80s and ’90s, and etc. So that foundation got laid. And in between all this, what you mainly saw the fight as being, though, where the modern day focus, the modern day focus was handguns. I remember through the ’80s, before the invention, and that’s what it was, the invention of the “assault weapon” issue. It hadn’t been invented yet. Everything was, we only want to ban handguns. Handguns were the symbol of crime. Every news show on the major controlled networks, there weren’t any cables, you know. You just had ABC, NBC, and CBS, and you had their nightly news. And anytime they talked about crime, whether there was a gun involved or not, they always showed a handgun on the news screen anytime they talked about crime. So the propaganda was put there. Everything was about banning handguns, and the main gun rights oppression group of the day was known as Handgun Control. Handgun Control was a big group. You had players at the time like Pete Shields and others, and this is where the push was. Then along comes Josh Sugarman, who puts out his manifesto.

Teddy Nappen 07:50

Closet hoplosexual.

Evan Nappen 07:52

Right. His manifesto of the assault weapons and their accessories. And even in his manifesto, he writes that the American public will be fooled by this, because they don’t know the difference between machine guns and semi-autos. This lays the groundwork for this. And lo and behold, we have California Page – 3 – of 15

with Patrick Purdy and the massacre that occurred in that incident, and that’s all the blood they needed to dance in. Then the assault weapon laws became the biggest threat to our Second Amendment rights, and everything weirdly shifted, weirdly shifted, so that handguns, with the growth of concealed carry, which has been an amazing success for gun rights support. Handguns are not the big issue for banning, except for, of course, a modern day focus on Glocks, because they’re easily convertible, right? Except for that. You don’t see the push like you used to ban handguns.

Evan Nappen 09:00

Of course, Heller took care of that as well. Saying you can’t. It’s unconstitutional to ban handguns, too. But the push on semi-automatic rifles under the contrived created term of “assault weapon”. They took the German of Sturmgewehr, which was the true original assault weapon, a medium power round in a long arm that’s designed for urban settings. It is select fire, both full auto and semi-auto. And causing this, creating this, and putting it with that scary “assault weapon” moniker to scare the public and sell it. And it was to their credit, to a certain degree successful. It was successful in a number of states that passed state laws, including New Jersey. They passed one of the one worst, most destructive, horrible gun laws that have ruined good people. We’ll talk more about that in a little bit.

Evan Nappen 10:06

And even a federal law at one point through the 1994 bill that was a crime, which they call the Crime Bill, but I call the bill that was a crime. We had the first national assault weapon ban. That law sunset and went away in 10 years, which was 2004, and they’ve not been able to reenact another federal ban since. But that ban did end up living on, by the way, in the state of New Jersey, because New Jersey adopted the language of that to save New Jersey’s assault firearm ban from being declared unconstitutionally vague. Now that was started by a case that I did, State v. Merrill, where I had the law declared unconstitutional for vagueness because of the term “substantially identical”, which was undefined. What does “substantially identical” even mean? How can something be substantially and identical at the same time? It’s like saying almost exact. Nothing is almost exact. It’s either exact or it isn’t. And because of the vagueness of that term, it was found unconstitutional by Judge Michael Farron, Monmouth County. We knocked out the case.

Evan Nappen 11:21

That case was then brought into federal court by the gun rights groups, and that’s where the Attorney General, in order to save it, adopted the 1994 federal crime bill standard that was feature specific. We still live by that today in New Jersey, as to what makes a compliant gun or not, as to the definition of “substantially identical”. The court said, well, now that you know the definition, it’s no longer vague, and therefore it’s constitutional, which is, of course, a judicial lie, a fallacy, a falsehood. Because what that means is that somehow in 1990 our legislators passed an unconstitutionally vague law that did not have definition and somehow knew that in 1994 the federal government would pass a law that defines the undefined law in New Jersey. That’s just ridiculousness squared. But nonetheless it is law, at least as it stands in New Jersey now. We saw other states and other counties constantly push on the so-called “assault weapon” ban, a focus being on the big bad AR-15. We’ve had fight after fight. Page – 4 – of 15 Page – 5 – of 15

Evan Nappen 12:35

And as our battle for Second Amendment rights continued through the courts, we got the trifecta. We got the Heller finding of what we all knew in our hearts was true, that the Second Amendment is an individual right. We got McDonald, which said this doesn’t just apply to the federal government, it applies to all states and localities. And then we got Bruen that laid out the test of constitutionality and gave us the requirement that carry permits must be issued, must be issued. With that buildup of having the trifecta, we’ve now gotten more cases from the Supreme Court that solidify this approach. And just now, in this moment in our lifetimes, the Supreme Court has finally accepted the challenge to the bans of so-called “assault weapons”. The name of the case.

Teddy Nappen 13:36

Particularly those two cases.

Evan Nappen 13:39

Yes, Viramontes v. Cook County, and Grant versus Higgins. Now, those cases, the Cook County case is the Illinois’ local county. It’s a local assault weapon ban ordinance, just an ordinance banning. And then the other case they took was in Connecticut, which is a statewide ban. Why do that? Well, what’s great is they’re going at anywhere and everything, whether it’s local or state. The challenge is across the board, as per McDonald. It’s incorporated both local and state. So we now have a certiorari grant combining two cases, and it isn’t just limited to Connecticut and this one local county in Illinois. Their decision will reach all localities, all states, and stand in the future with our win, that I am confident we will win, to stop future federal laws on this. Here’s the actual. Go ahead, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 14:52

I will point out that this is just something the we. I always keep an eye on, like all the arguments the Left always do. I always love the ad hominem attack, where they say. Well, this is just some Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), which is they are a party to both cases. (https://saf.org/supreme-court-grants-cert-in-saf-assault-weapons-cases/) They’re the ones that brought the cases. Second Amendment Foundation was joined by the Firearms Policy Coalition. They brought the Vermont.

Evan Nappen 15:16

And second Amendment Foundation.

Teddy Nappen 15:17

And Second Amendment Foundation, along with the Connecticut Citizens Defense League. They always try to say.

Evan Nappen 15:21

Teddy, there are also individual plaintiffs that are very important, that have standing, that have gone this distance. So, this is actual people and organizations.

Teddy Nappen 15:32

Yeah, astroturf. Page – 6 – of 15

Evan Nappen 15:32

Yeah, well, astroturf, that’s a joke.

Teddy Nappen 15:36

Yeah, but that is.

Evan Nappen 15:37

I mean. Yeah. Go ahead.

Teddy Nappen 15:40

Just to take that in. Throughout history, just look at the cases throughout, like some of the major Supreme Court cases. I think it was, what was it, either.. I think it was like maybe Plessy versus there was one regular Supreme Court case where it was brought by the, the.. it was about segregation. It was the train companies, where they’re trying to make sure they didn’t have to make extra cars for separating blacks and whites. And it was brought, and they actually set it up to have the case, to get the individual arrested for the segregation. It’s not the first time you’ve had organizations, and that’s throughout all, like a vast majority of cases where you have other.

Evan Nappen 16:22

Listen, Teddy. Astroturf? Rosa Parks was a setup. Rosa Parks at the back of the bus, racial segregation. What do you think? It was engineered to make the challenge! Yeah, so don’t give me that. You want to put the issues forward and get the issues decided. Good, good. They have actual plaintiffs. They have actual people that are suffering under these laws, and they have organizations that represent vast amounts of members. It’s fine. It’s real. The assault firearm bans are real, and in New Jersey, their impact has been one of absolute destructive power. But let me just tell you what the court, just to close this, so we know exactly what they’re going to decide. Here is the question presented that they have granted certiorari on. Here it is, ready? Whether the Second and 14th Amendments guarantee the right to possess the AR-15 platform and similar semi-automatic rifles. This is great! One of the criteria that the antis are going to use, is they’re going to say, well, it has to be arms that are commonly possessed. Well, the AR-15 is the most commonly possessed rifle in America. As a matter of fact, folks, there are more AR-15s than there are Ford F150 pickup trucks! Let that sink in.

Teddy Nappen 18:08

That was the other argument I’ve been seeing from The Trace. (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/06/assault-weapons-bans-supreme-court-2a/) They just did their whole, you know, boo hoo, whining, and crying. It was from Chip Brownlee. Guess the first thing they highlight? This is the fight for the dangerous and unusual AR-15. Like that’s the common use. That’s the spin that they’re going to use. They’re trying to lay the groundwork on, is that whole idea of.

Evan Nappen 18:34

Well, you know why? They don’t have historical analogs under the Bruen test anymore, that can help them. Their analogs have had their legs cut off. The one they loved was about the Black Codes, where they banned blacks from Bowie knives and guns, or whatever. And Alito, just in the recent opinion, made it clear that’s a tainted relic. It can’t be taken seriously. So, forget it. That analog is out the Page – 7 – of 15

window. They just revealed, based on research by Stephen Halbrook, that the precedent claimed for carrying – as a matter of fact, this was even in Kuhns. One of the precedents relied upon by the court was a law that never was a law. It was simply something in some Frenchman’s book that talked about it. But the actual law was not how they’re citing it at all. Their analogs are fraught with fraud, fraught with being completely tossed in the garbage can, and they know it. When it comes to that Bruen test of history, text and tradition. In order for a law to be upheld and found not to be unconstitutional under the Second Amendment, the Government has the burden of showing the past analogs that there were other laws that were like that law that make this new law acceptable. And they don’t have that. They do not have it. So, they’re falling back, Teddy, to it’s not common use. Well, that’s falls flat on its face. They’re falling back on what? What’s the classic? Why don’t you tell us? What’s the classic when all else fails for them to cry about?

Teddy Nappen 20:34

Blood In The Streets. That’s Blood In The Streets. They always cite two BITS. We have to consider the gun violence when considering this. All that goes right to Brown.

Evan Nappen 20:43

Public policy. They always go back to the public policy arguments, public policy, and guess what? That doesn’t cut it! That doesn’t justify infringement of the Second Amendment. That argument is dead in the water. It’s not the test. It’s not a balancing test. Balancing tests aren’t allowed. Done, dead, gone. You can’t balance public policy. Can’t do it anymore. They know they’re going to be crushed, and I cannot wait for that day. I cannot wait till, at the latest, it’ll be next June. We’re going to have a decision that removes finally. I know it in my bones. Gets rid of, ends this travesty called the “assault weapon” ban. Let me tell you something. These laws have destroyed good people. These laws have created more harm than they claim the firearms themselves have created, especially in states like New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 22:00

It isn’t just that an individual can’t have that gun or this gun. It’s the aggressive insanity of enforcement destroying people’s lives. If you get convicted of possession of an “assault firearm” in New Jersey, right? An AR-15 that has a bayonet mount on it and a pistol grip. You are now guilty of possession of an “assault firearm” because of a bayonet mount. You’re looking at 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory three and a half years. No chance of parole. Three and a half years – minimum mandatory, folks. No way around it. No way. If you’re convicted of that, the judge has zero discretion. You can be Mother Teresa, and you’ll have to get three and a half years minimum mandatory in State Prison because you had a gun that had a bayonet mount and a pistol grip. You can only have one offending feature, and the pistol grip is one offending feature, right out of the box. And you had two because your other one was a bayonet mount. You know how important bayonet mounts are to crime. I mean, come on. What about all the drive-by bayonetings we have to take care of here, right? Folks, that’s how they..

Teddy Nappen 22:00

I think you also. Just looking at the future, because from the facts of where everything’s lined up, yeah, we’re going to win. And just seeing that right now, the way things lay out, I look to. Page – 8 – of 15

Evan Nappen 23:45

Well, we don’t want to be overconfident, but we.

Teddy Nappen 23:48

I understand. Fine, cautiously optimistic.

Evan Nappen 23:52

But I am cautiously optimistic. I am incredibly cautiously optimistic with an emphasis on optimistic.

Teddy Nappen 23:59

I always look to what is left of their, what would be the next step, then on there on the gun right suppressionist? Because the only thing I could think of is they’re just going to try to put.

Evan Nappen 24:09

Wait, wait, wait. Hold that thought for a minute. I just want to finish about the other destruction that has occurred. Like I said, it’s not just that you get arrested and you’re charged with assault firearm. Then you’re thrown in the Gulag, and they want to hold you until your trial. You’re going to spend at least a week, even if your lawyer can get you out before your trial. You have that fight. Then they use it as a licensing disqualifier. If you had an assault firearm, you’re banned from ever having guns again. It doesn’t matter. It’s an assault firearm. On top of that, they have made assault firearm possession not releasable under the Gulag. Remember, we’ve talked about this. It becomes a criteria where there’s a presumption for you to be held in jail. Presumption in favor all over this nonsense. So, you see it’s far-reaching, and what happens when someone inadvertently gets involved in this? Your life gets destroyed. You lose your career. You lose your family. You can lose your freedom. You lose your gun rights, and it’s devastating to people. And then there are those that are doing hard time because they are otherwise lawful possessors. It doesn’t matter. They’re doing the time, having their life destroyed, and having been turned into felons.

Evan Nappen 25:40

So, let me just say this. After this decision is a tremendous win for our gun rights and for civil rights, because it’s in the same category as the First Amendment, folks. It’s in the same category as a fundamental right under the Bill of Rights. What I want to see after that decision is reparations to gun owners. That’s right. Reparations to gun owners. You know, they talk on the other side about reparations for slavery to generations later that were never slaves, and they want reparations. Here we will have reparations to individuals who are still alive and have suffered. To anybody that had to give up one of their guns that never should have had to. To those that went into the Gulag and suffered that never should have. To those who have done State Prison sentences that never should have. To those who have lost their gun rights, who have had their families, their lives, their freedom, and their fortunes, all destroyed. Reparations to them. Wait till after this decision comes down. Then we push for reparations. We don’t let it end. Oh, sure. Is that difficult? Will it be hard? Yeah, but it’s no more hard, and frankly, less, way less, of an ask than those asking for reparations for slavery, where we don’t even have the victims of that alive today. Page – 9 – of 15

Teddy Nappen 27:09

It’s also very easy to quantify, because you go into just the legal fees that were brought, the time in jail. Plenty of people have sued and won on those cases. So, it’s something you can actually determine, as opposed to generational racism. It’s ridiculous, as ridiculous sounds, but to this end, where someone who had their life destroyed because of the gun control that they have pushed over the years.

Evan Nappen 27:39

That was utterly a violation of our fundamental rights and Second Amendment civil rights. It absolutely is going to lay groundwork for at least tremendous litigation, and really we should have eventually a federal reparations law requiring states to pay that ever had these laws. To compensate individuals who suffered under their tyranny. So, Teddy, you had something else to mention. I know you did.

Teddy Nappen 27:39

Yes. So, the one thing I was looking at, whenever I always look to our opponents, because I try not to think of them as being stupid. Even though they are pretty retarded on a lot of different fronts, but they always keep pushing. And I remember this term for it, of what they were described. The Left and the Marxists are line steppers. They go with the idea of what can we get away with, what can we push for, because they always go for that. It’s always just progressivism for progressive sake. Cut to trans ideology. Cut to, you know, we’re going to take your children away and then transition them. Cut to any form of the Left in its insanity.

Teddy Nappen 28:16

I always think what will be the next push, and I can see it right now. Repealing the Second Amendment will be the next step.

Evan Nappen 28:16

100 percent.

Teddy Nappen 28:36

Yes, that will. That’s the only. The only thing I can think of is what they did to Penny, what they did to all the other self-defense cases that we’ve had. Fine, you can have your firearms, but if you ever use them, we will drag you through the courts. We’ll make your life a living hell. We will make it so that people will want to murder you and come to your house and dox you. That’s the only thing at this point. That’s all they have. They are the party of violence, that is shown. You have doxing websites they run. That is the only two avenues I can see for that, and also suing the gun shops into oblivion, which we need to do something with the, I think, what is it, the PLCAA, where it’s the protection.

Evan Nappen 29:59

Yeah, PLCAA. (Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act) Right.

Teddy Nappen 30:02

We need to improve and expand PLCAA, and just say no. Stop wasting the state’s money. So, I don’t know what the test would be, but we need to. Page – 10 – of 15

Evan Nappen 30:12

Well, the fight will definitely change, and you know, the gun rights oppressors are not going to give up. But.

Teddy Nappen 30:21

Of courses not.

Evan Nappen 30:21

It will absolutely take away one of their actually most successful modern gun rights oppression tax. This will be one of. This will destroy what has actually been one of their areas of success, to be honest. They have succeeded in multiple states, and even at one point federally over this. This will destroy it, kill it, and they’re going to be knocked back on their heels very hard by it. And then we need to finish the job.

Evan Nappen 31:00

Repeal Hughes Amendment.

Evan Nappen 31:01

We need to go at reparations and make it so that when any of these governments decide to embark on rights violations, that down the road we make them pay. We just don’t kill the law. We just don’t knock it out, so that it no longer has effect. We have to make them pay for what they did to good people, and we do that through reparations.

Teddy Nappen 31:29

We should also repeal the Hughes. Amendment.

Evan Nappen 31:31

That’s going to build. Once you get this case, then, of course, the rest of NFA, any other hardware bands, all these things are going to be on the table. We will have even stronger, better case law to take it all out as the house of cards built by the gun rights oppressors collapses. Hey, and by the way, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot, and that is, of course, where we get our training. And I want to tell you that they are offering New Jersey concealed carry, so you can get your CCARE so you can get your carry permit out of Jersey. They have a new price for their CCARE. It’s incredible. It’s only $225! You can sign up at WeShoot and get their carry course, and it is great. You’ll get your PTC certification, and they really set the gold standard there at WeShoot. You’ll be able to get re-qualification, too. This is the training that police departments use. They’re also USCCA and NRA backed courses. It’s all combined. This is where you can reserve and get it done, so you can get your carry.

Evan Nappen 33:03

Particularly now where we’re knocking out “sensitive places”, as we just did with the Wolford case, which actually impacts New Jersey “sensitive places”. We’re going to see more and more availability of where we can carry, and every carry permit holder is another vote for carry. Probably by now, we are well over 100,000 carry permits in New Jersey. You know, it used to be 600. Literally just 600 carry Page – 11 – of 15

permits. Not 600,000. Six hundred. And now we’re in the 100,000 or damn close, if not over it, of permit carriers. I just showed you how their oppression law was so successful before, and after Bruen, it’s dead.

Evan Nappen 33:50

So, go to weshootusa.com. Check out We Shoot, and I know you’ll love WeShoot, too. They have great training, and not only can you get your New Jersey permit certification, your CCARE, but they also offer special training to get that for seniors, 65 or older. They have a special deal for seniors – only $185. You can get your training there. They also offer New York City non-resident carry. They are offering New York City non-resident carry. They have it at a fantastic new low price of $289, and you can get your New York City carry, which also covers New York State non-resident carry permit. They’ll do all the training, and this is really great. Anthony Zalo will be doing this course. It spans two days, and it covers firearm safety and storage, pistol ammunition basics, de-escalation techniques, federal and state law, live fire training. If you’re seeking even more certifications, they offer Maryland Wear and Carry Certification, as well as Washington, D.C. carry permits for just $150 each. On Tuesday, August 4, they will be holding their New York resident and non-resident carry courses.

Evan Nappen 35:37

WeShoot also has Civilian Shoot House Training. This is really cool. Their Civilian Shoot House Training, so you can understand how to clear rooms, move with purpose, and make decisions under pressure. This is great for homeowners and parents and security team. Anybody who’s serious about protecting their home and community, check out WeShoot’s Civilian Shoot House Training. They have that scheduled out. You can sign up for Friday, July 31st for that Training. They also have adult CPR / AED and Stop the Bleed, so that you know how to treat wounds. They’re offering that training on Monday, July 20. And for new shooters, they have great training called “From Nervous to Bullseye”. If you’re entry level, you want basic training. Here’s what you can do. They’re also offering weekend classes, and you can “Hit Your Weekend Target” with their great instructors – Grant Gallagher, Tony Zollo, and Lance Hubeny. They’re all there. Sign up at WeShoot. They are a phenomenal resource. We’re talking here about WeShoot in Lakewood. They offer USCCA and Sig Sauer Academy – “Close Quarter Defense Fundamentals. I mean, can you believe this? Just fantastic training. Make sure you check out weshootusa.com. You’ll love the range, you’ll love the pro shop, and you’ll love the people. They are the best. Go to weshootusa.com today, and take a trip down to Lakewood. They are right there in Central Jersey, conveniently off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 37:40

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of Jersey Gun Law, and you need to get your copy today. Go to EvanNappen.com and get a copy of New Jersey Gun Law. It’ll help keep you from being a GOFU. Hey, we are now celebrating, of course, the 250th Anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. This is a great moment in our history where that fantastic, earth shattering, world changing, humanity changing, document was signed and began the birth of our wonderful America, the greatest country on earth. I have nothing but reverence for our Founding Fathers and our Founding documents, and celebrate 100%. Page – 12 – of 15

Evan Nappen 38:48

Let me tell you about the author. Of course, the Committee of Five technically authored The Declaration, but the majority of the credit is given to, and I hope you know this, Thomas Jefferson. But let me tell you about how great Thomas Jefferson was. Not just because of his phenomenal presidency, his assertion of our national reputation against the Muslim pirates, the pirates of the day, standing up to them, and also the Louisiana Purchase, and so many amazing things under Jefferson. And, of course, the Declaration of Independence. But let me tell you something else about Thomas Jefferson. I want you to know, when it comes to firearms, Thomas Jefferson was one of us. He couldn’t be more one of us. Thomas Jefferson was one of the greatest gun owning founding fathers to live.

Evan Nappen 40:04

And let me read you, especially on the 250th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. The man who wrote that and made us so where we are today, we can be proud and free. Listen to some quotes from Thomas Jefferson, specifically about guns. Here’s a great quote from Thomas Jefferson. “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” Yeah, he said that. No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. That’s from Thomas Jefferson in the Virginia Constitution draft of 1776. Here’s another phenomenal quote by Thomas Jefferson. “I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.” Let that sink in, folks. He preferred dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery. He wrote that in a letter to James Madison in 1787 . Here’s another great quote from Thomas Jefferson. “What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms.” That’s right. Enemies, foreign and domestic, my friends. You heard what Jefferson said.

Evan Nappen 41:40

“The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” Pure common sense spoken by Thomas Jefferson in Commonplace Book, quoting the 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria. Here’s another quote from Thomas Jefferson. “A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks.” Let that one sink in, folks. Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to Peter Carr from August of 1785.

Evan Nappen 42:27

“The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; and they may exercise it by themselves, and that is their right and duty to be armed at all times. Let all those quotes from Thomas Jefferson sink in. Think about them as we celebrate the 250th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence and the man that was the chief engineer of that document and how that man viewed our Second Amendment rights. Page – 13 – of 15

Teddy Nappen 43:43

I will also say, like, I don’t know if you did. Did you ever get to go to Monticello? Did you and Mom get to go?

Evan Nappen 44:09

Thanks for mentioning it. No, that is on my bucket list, and I’m going there. My wife went. You’ve gone.

Teddy Nappen 44:18

No, I didn’t. I didn’t get to go.

Evan Nappen 44:20

What? You didn’t either?

Teddy Nappen 44:20

Nope. Just Mom.

Evan Nappen 44:21

Teddy, you and I have got to go.

Teddy Nappen 44:23

Just Mom got to go. That’s why.

Evan Nappen 44:25

This is just wrong. I’ve got to go to Monticello. I’ve meaning to get there. And it’s bugging the hell out of me.

Teddy Nappen 44:33

If you ever do go there, they have his pistols. His famed pistols that were, I think, gifted to him. (https://www.monticello.org/encyclopedia/firearms) Yeah, his famed twin pocket pistols that were gifts from, I believe it was a pair of Turkish pistols received from General Isaac Zane in place of a monetary bequest.

Evan Nappen 45:07

Bequest. He gifted him these pistols.

Teddy Nappen 45:11

Okay.

Evan Nappen 45:12

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 45:14

It was also kind of interesting that Jefferson loved to go out and do competition shoots. He would do a lot of them, and he was a fairly good marksman. There were marks in his letters showing that he noted Page – 14 – of 15

in his accounts, I won a shooting in one of six, it was a muster with Captain Jacob Moon’s Albany County Militia Company. He lost two to six, but as he grew older, his limited exercise. He moved more to firearms and hunting over his horseback riding. He even had designs, and there was accounting of a double-barreled gun lock that he had drawn. So, there’s various other bits in his accounts.

Evan Nappen 46:01

Like I said, he’s one of us, man. One hundred percent. Hey, this is wonderful, an incredibly important part of our heritage and our tradition. Jefferson stands tall. All the Founding Fathers were, of course, gun owners and knew the importance of arms, but Jefferson is special, without a doubt. Jefferson is special.

Evan Nappen 46:32

And you know, Teddy, I want to tell you about this week’s GOFU. This is a GOFU that every time in the practice of gun law, there’s something new. Some other GOFU that I’d not even heard about before, and it just blows me away. It constantly gets crazier and worse, and I want everyone to understand this GOFU, which is, of course, a Gun Owner Fuck Up. Where individuals are now experiencing expensive lessons, or have experienced expensive lessons that you can hopefully avoid for free by listening to Gun Lawyer.

Evan Nappen 47:16

So, this week’s GOFU concerns the following. We have a couple, a husband and wife, that are not getting along well with one another, and okay, it happens, right? It happens. Well, it ends up where at some point there’s a fight, and like the old kind of comedy issue you’ve seen on TV, where often it’s the woman, it doesn’t have to be, but often is, throws the husband’s clothing or the belongings out the window to get out. That kind of a thing. Well, in this case, apparently his firearms were tossed out onto the lawn. I guess it sends a message as to throwing out things that the other party believes they care about. But whatever. I’m not going to get into the psychology of it. The bottom line is that this takes place. What happens? Well, it ends up where the police get involved. The police get involved because it falls under the so-called banner of domestic violence. Anytime there is domestic violence, police are called in over any claim of domestic violence, and it’s so broad. Remember, domestic violence could be anything, even harassment, which the essence of which is doing something to purposely annoy another. Now, I know none of you have ever purposely annoyed your spouse or your boyfriend or your girlfriend, but if you did, then you arguably committed domestic violence for harassment.

Evan Nappen 48:57

Anyway, that can bring the police into your lives, and this is where you get to live the famous saying of Ronald Reagan. “We’re here from the Government, and we’re here to help.” And, of course, that was one of the best, most sarcastic things that Reagan ever said. Because we’re here from the Government and we’re here to help, is of course the exact opposite. And that’s what happened here. The Government gets involved, and both parties are questioned over various allegations. It doesn’t matter what. The bottom line is that the domestic violence forms are filled out where the issue is documented, and the wife is asked, do you want a restraining order? And she wisely says no. This is internal. They’re squabbling, or whatever. She doesn’t need a restraining order. The husband, who related his whole side of everything there too, is asked, “do you want a restraining order? And he wisely said no, as well. Page – 15 – of 15

Evan Nappen 50:11

So, now you have a couple that are trying. They’re going to do whatever, but they don’t want restraining orders. They don’t want the Government in their life. They’re not interested in that. But what happens? The Government files Red Flags, TERPOs, Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Orders on both of them. Neither of them wanted a restraining order. Neither one wanted it, but it didn’t matter. The Government now files to take away both of their gun rights. To take away their guns and put them on a list of extreme risk. This puts you on a database that could even arguably be accessed by TSA or others that you’re a danger. It has farther reaching collateral consequences than just taking guns and taking away your gun rights. Putting you into the court system now to have to individually fight TERPOs, because we’re from the Government and we’re here to help. That, my friends, is the GOFU. Keep it in mind at all times about being from the Government and there to help. Especially on the 250th Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

Evan Nappen 51:37

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Even Thomas Jefferson knew that.

Speaker 3 51:50

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E297 TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 296-Trump Pushes National Constitutional CarryAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 12

Gun Lawyer — Episode 296 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, pistol brace, bump stock, Glock ban, iron pipeline, national constitutional carry, gun rights, anti-gun laws, gun safety, Hollywood depiction, firearm training, gun laws, civil rights, gun ownership, gun violence.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:21

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:22

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what have you brought to the table today?

Teddy Nappen 00:33

Well, I’m always amazed by every single time they always try to say Trump’s not doing enough. Like you hear the horseshoe, right? It’s amazing the idea of just, oh, he hasn’t done enough, or they do the goal post move. Where they move it. They say he hasn’t done anything, or they move in and say he hasn’t done enough. I keep hearing this all the time about people with regards to the Second Amendment. They always try to highlight that stupid thing regarding the, what was it? The pistol brace at the time, because the writing on the wall that they try.

Evan Nappen 01:16

Well, remember, keep in mind that with the pistol brace originally, NRA was not real keen on them either. You may remember, you know. So, Trump was trying to also go along with what the organizations themselves were doing, remember, because the brace thing was. But what you eventually saw, and what you’re seeing now, just on that is the elimination of the brace being an SBR, and that whole Merrick Garland insanity of having to register pistol braces. They put the reg forward on their, which should be official shortly, getting rid of that completely. We’re going to, on another shows talk about anybody if you happened to register a braced pistol as an SBR, what you need to do. Because that’s all history, and Trump has ensured that it’s now history, and let’s give credit there for that. Page – 2 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 02:35

And they always highlight the bump stock thing. By the way, the writing was on the wall of why Obama wanted to let that through was because they were going to equate ARs to machine guns, and that led to where.

Evan Nappen 02:50

That’s right. So, remember the anti-rights, the oppressionists, they always have a game plan. So, their game plan was, look, if we have the bump stock thing going, then we can claim that semi-automatics are like machine guns. Then we can go after them and get a ban on semi-automatics as machine guns. And what Trump was doing politically in that sense was thwarting their political move. Now, if you say, ‘Oh, well, that isn’t.. how do you know that’s their plan? Or that was.. well, I’ll tell you what. If you want to see that as their plan, you could see it in action right now as they ban Glocks. California just banned Glock pistols, and what is your basis for banning Glocks? Oh, well, they’re easily convertible with Glock switches, you see. So, this is always the gambit of the Second Amendment oppressionists. Now we ban handguns that are perfectly legal, the most popular handgun in America, and we ban it, how? Oh, because you can put an unlawful Glock switch, which turns it into select fire. These switches are in and of themselves, just possession of a switch, is the same as possessing a machine gun. The switches are banned! But they use it as the pretext to expand it, and then ban the handguns themselves.

Evan Nappen 04:35

You also saw them attempt this with the so-called iron pipeline.

Teddy Nappen 04:40

Operation Fast and Furious.

Evan Nappen 04:40

They were laying the groundwork for the iron pipeline. They wanted to say, oh, American guns, semi-autos, are going to Mexico to the narco terrorists, and all. And what did they do? They changed the 4473 to ask, are you Hispanic or not? Like, why are they asking that? And then they had multiple rifle reporting on border states. Why are they doing that? And then, of course, they do Operation Fast and Furious, so they could paint the picture to then push a gun ban based on the iron pipeline down south. But lo and behold, they step on their own toes here. We’ll use that word instead. And Operation Fast and Furious blows up in their face because they’re selling the guns themselves to the narco terrorists, and end up killing a federal agent, no less. So, that plan went all to hell.

Evan Nappen 05:35

But you see, this is what they do. They lay the groundwork with these things, and that’s really what was going on there, on that. But with this Administration, we’ve never had an administration this pro-Second Amendment rights that it’s ever been president, ever. They’re now saying to California, get rid of that Glock ban or the Justice Department of the federal government is going after California. In other words, we finally have the federal government not pursuing oppression of the Second Amendment, but of enforcing our rights and preserving and fighting for our rights. They did it, and they’re doing it in all different facets. They’re doing it by administrative reg changes, 34 great changes. They’re doing it by Page – 3 – of 12

the litigation. They’re doing it by getting a focus of civil rights and putting the Second Amendment into that category.

Evan Nappen 06:40

And now President Trump, just recently at a rally in Pennsylvania, said he wants to see and is pushing for National Constitutional Carry. Now, keep in mind this is beyond national reciprocity. National Constitutional Carry is the ability to lawfully carry your handgun anywhere in the United States with no permission slip. Ending the requirements, in effect, for permits. Or at least having it so that there’s national reciprocity that respects the majority of states that don’t require any permit. So that with National Constitutional Carry, a person who is a resident of a Constitutional carry state can carry, for example, in New York or New Jersey and all these oppression states with no permit, because it will be national. If you think about what the Second Amendment means, the right to keep and bear arms bearing is carrying, and the Second Amendment means that very thing. And that’s why it’s constitutional.

Teddy Nappen 08:17

You also have to remember, Dad, like think back to Shaneen Allen. If this law comes into play, that would have avoided that entire BS that she went through. Her only crime was crossing the Franklin Bridge.

Evan Nappen 08:40

Without the piece of paper that New Jersey recognizes. That’s right! Think of how many completely law-abiding citizens are turned into criminals, have their life destroyed, forced into a criminal judicial system for exercising a Constitutional right. They weren’t committing any crimes. They weren’t robbing, stealing, raping. No, no, no, nothing. Just, oh, you have a gun, and we’re not recognizing your right in this jurisdiction. That’s why this has to go. That’s why it’s a civil right, and it’s really great to see President Trump pushing it again.

Teddy Nappen 09:21

If they were robbing, stealing, or raping, they would just be let off, no bail, no nothing.

Evan Nappen 09:26

Well, if they’re an illegal alien, of course.

Teddy Nappen 09:30

Yes, of course.

Evan Nappen 09:31

And not only that, they would not even cooperate with ICE to have them deported, but that’s separate.

Teddy Nappen 09:38

Yeah. Page – 4 – of 12

Evan Nappen 09:38

We’re talking here about law-abiding Americans with rights that are getting oppressed. What’s really interesting is that President Trump is pushing it now, making it an issue. Not just leaving it in the shadows, but making it a specific issue out there. And at the same time, he’s pushing for the Save Act, so we have integrity in our voting system. He’s pushing like never before to get rid of the filibuster. The filibuster is what is stopping the Republican-controlled Congress from being able to pass the agenda that we voted for. It’s because of the filibuster. As it stands now, you need 60 votes, and that lets the oppressors still have power to stop these laws from going through. And you know, if the Democrats ever gained power again, the first thing they’re going to do is get rid of the filibuster. So, cut it out. I didn’t see the filibuster in our Constitution. It talks about majority for passing legislation in each house. Okay, that’s what it is. So, this filibuster thing is a contrivance, and it needs to go. It is time, because we can get these laws through, and we can get the changes that we need on so many fronts, including the Second Amendment rights. It’s very important, critical.

Teddy Nappen 11:30

Yeah, and this also comes from this. It’s right an article from MSN. (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-says-administration-is-working-on-nationwide-right-to-carry-legislation/ar-AA26oxMC) When he was unveiling the new aircraft at Andrews Air Force base, one of the attendees asked about it, and he said, “Yep, we’re working on it. That sends it right there, because that puts it in. Not only you just said not to the national spot, but it also had all the gun rights oppressionists jumping up, screaming, no, no, no. Like going, like just immediately. It’s so funny.

Evan Nappen 12:07

It’s (Senator) Mike Lee’s bill. (https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/4013/text) (Senator) Mike Lee has the bill, and they are working on it. This is a major, major law. It’s probably the single most important pro-Second Amendment rights law that we could pass in modern times. First of all, it will have a wonderful effect on reducing crime. We’re facing these criminals that were let loose into our country through four years of Biden and his policies, plus the blue state policies of the revolving door with no cash bails and all that. So, we need to be able to defend ourselves. But it also will make it so that carry is every individual, who chooses to have a firearm to protect themselves, and this will make it much simpler for individuals to do that very thing. Has a vested interest in preserving and fighting for their Second Amendment rights. It will be the biggest game changer that we could look for.

Evan Nappen 13:22

Because as we evolve in our Second Amendments, where the base used to be the strongest base of our gun rights was hunters, it really has shifted. There’s less hunting and less hunting lands, unfortunately, and it shifted to a major uptick, tremendous uptick, in firearms for self-defense and personal protection and individual carry. This will solidify it to the ultimate, the ultimate lifestyle of Constitutional carry for all. That’s what we want to see. We will have a safer society. We’ll have a safer country. Individuals will be able to protect their families, their themselves, their loved ones. It is absolutely the best thing we could do for public safety and the protection of our sacred Constitutional rights. Page – 5 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 14:32

I will say, as well, I love just.. I pulled this from Giffords. (https://giffords.org/press-release/2026/06/giffords-condemns-trumps-push-for-national-right-to-carry-legislation/) Gabby Giffords, of course, who is one of the.. you know, out of.. I would say. Would you say Gifford is probably the smallest out of the gun rights of oppressors? There’s still a factor, but out of comparatively, compared to, like.

Evan Nappen 14:49

Well, The Trace and Bloomturd and his organization probably has the most influence, but then you know.

Teddy Nappen 15:00

They fund each other, and yeah, they do fund them, too.

Evan Nappen 15:04

But, you know, the whole thing that also is true is that the anti-Second Amendment rights groups themselves are not really made of that many members. They don’t have anywhere near the passion and the numbers of which there are gun owners in America and guns in America. They like to gloss over that little fact. They’re basically small but well heeled, well financed. Slick and propagandized, and have an agenda of billionaires that they try to jam down the overwhelming majority of Americans’ throats that actually support the Constitution, and particularly the Second Amendment. So, that’s really, I mean, you don’t see it in terms of numbers. Now, they’ll hold rallies or whatever, and they’ll pay people to turn out. They’ll link in with other groups that are Left wing and such to make their numbers appear big. But there’s a tremendous difference between the pro-Second Amendment rights forces people and the anti-Second Amendment rights forces people.

Teddy Nappen 16:32

And it’s also they never changed the argument. Because right here, right out of her own quote, concealed carry reciprocity is a dangerously reckless proposal, and would jeopardize the lives of the children, families, and police. People should not have guns who have no training, who have never passed a background check, and would be able to carry concealed weapons in every community, no questions asked.

Evan Nappen 17:01

Yes, and that is absolute garbage. The majority of America already has Constitutional Carry. In the majority of states, 70% of the land mass of the U.S., you can carry now with no permit. So, obviously it’s flawed. I mean, look, murder rates have gone down nationally. But, of course, in the Blue cities, where they have the failure to cooperate with the federal government, where crime is out of control, it’s problematic there. But overall, guess what? The incredible decline in violent crime and murder rates corresponds brilliantly to civilian expansion of carry. That’s what you don’t hear. When they talk about how great we’re doing overall in terms of stopping and fighting violent crime and how those statistics show that we’ve improved, it correlates, it follows expansion of our ability to carry, either by shall-issue permit and/or Constitutional Carry. That’s why a national carry will enshrine it and make it the law of the land. We’ll see even better statistics and less people being victims instead of defenders. Page – 6 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 18:42

You always have to go to the fact, and they always say, if it saves one life. How about 2 million to 2.5 million in defensive uses of firearms that have saved lives per year.

Evan Nappen 18:54

Right!

Teddy Nappen 18:55

Just going off, you can even ignore the correlation / causation factor, and you can just cite to the fact that 2 million lives are saved from defensive uses of a firearm. If they go for the “save one life”, we’ve got to protect the children, yet it saves lives. Just flat out argument to that. But no, they always go to you’re going to be arming criminals and traffickers and lead to more gun deaths. All right. That’s ridiculous.

Evan Nappen 19:24

Here’s the bottom line. It’s real simple. You can sum it up real easy. Guns Save Lives. Do you need to write that down? I mean, Guns Save Lives. And unfortunately, the cohorts of the oppressionists is the media. The mainstream, lame stream media that loves to push the agenda of the billionaire elitists that want our rights destroyed and that’s a fact. Guns Save Lives. And when you can, as an individual, protect yourself and your loved ones. Anyone who’s a gun owner knows that feeling of security and safety when you’re trained and know how to shoot and have your own firearm. You know that you can do it. And that is what enshrines it to the person, what puts it right in their heart. They go, yeah, I get it. I get it. Especially individuals who have actually had to use firearms, or they realize the famous saying of “I’d rather have a gun and not need it than need it and not have it”. And those that have needed one and not had it. Yeah, they paid a price, and those that have had it when they needed, it saved lives.

Teddy Nappen 20:57

It makes me think back to, I don’t know if you remember seeing this. Do you know who Jamal Bowman is? Mister pull the Fire Alarm, because I can’t open a door.

Evan Nappen 21:05

Yeah, right. That guy.

Teddy Nappen 21:07

I remember him having a shouting match. It was like a couple years ago. It was him and Massie. He was arguing about, arguing for, more restrictive guns measures. Calling Republicans cowards, and he was screaming, and say, ‘You want more guns, you’re gonna lead to more death. Like, just screaming, screaming that it would cause more death. Screaming, ‘You’re all cowards. You don’t save children. Like, just screaming about it. (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/democrat-calls-republicans-cowards-tense-exchange-gun-violence-rcna77342) They do not care about the statistics. They do not care about the facts and the logic behind it. They just see weapon bad. Weapon is used by the oppression. Page – 7 – of 12

Evan Nappen 21:46

Wait. You’re telling me that Democrat issues are emotion-based? I find that hard to believe, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 21:53

I know, right. Whoops, sorry.

Evan Nappen 21:55

Yeah, at least.

Teddy Nappen 21:56

They banned logic in ’84.

Evan Nappen 21:58

I guess they did. They did. Well, Teddy, let me talk about our good friends at WeShoot, our favorite range. It’s where you and I shoot and get our training and got our certificates, so that we can carry. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, New Jersey, and a great facility. They are running an America 250th Anniversary sale. That’s right. This is a pretty cool sale, actually. They are offering 15% off all of their pre-loved firearms. You know what a pre-loved firearm is, right? Fifteen percent off for any of those, and 25% off their Heritage Collection. These are all these guns. There’s tremendously great guns that they have for sales, the 15% off sale across the board. You’ve got to check out what they have at WeShoot. They have an amazing selection and that’s of course on their pre-loved guns. Their Heritage Collection, man, is 25% off, and that is some sweet guns. Let me tell you. The Heritage Collection has, for example, I’ll just tell you about a few. Fox Sterlingworth shotgun, Fox “A” shotgun. You know, we’re talking these beauties. Fox AEs, and all these Richards. W. Richards SXs, you know, they’re the 10 gauge Richards. Fox CES, Parker Brothers, Trojan, the fevers, the nitros. We’re talking all the LC Smiths, Parkers. The classics of the scattergun world, man. The best of the best, and those are 25% off.

Evan Nappen 24:17

So, you want to go to WeShoot and get your training there. It’s a great facility with a great indoor range. Conveniently located right off the Parkway, right in Lakewood, New Jersey. Central Jersey. Our ranges are critical. They are a resource. I mean, what good is it if you can’t shoot? If you don’t have any place to shoot? We’re lucky we have a great place to shoot. It’s called WeShoot. You can check out their website – weshootusa.com. Brilliant website with fantastic photography. They treat their customers so well. Teddy and I love WeShoot, and I know you will, too. Check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 25:03

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages. It’s over 120 topics, all question and answer, making it easy, so that you don’t become the next GOFU. New Jersey’s laws are complicated, and it can be very perilous. As a matter of fact, the case law even says, when dealing with New Jersey gun laws, you act at your own peril. Even the courts recognize that the gun laws are perilous. So, to help defeat the peril and manage it, get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com, and get your copy today. You’ll be glad you did, Teddy. What else have you discovered in your travels? Page – 8 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 26:01

So, every time you turn on a TV show or movie, like out of modern Hollywood, you’ve probably seen some anti-gun messaging. It’s always there, some little.

Evan Nappen 26:02

Yeah, some subliminal, some obvious. Nonsense.

Teddy Nappen 26:12

An individual who is carrying, who ends up making the situation worse, or a kid finds the gun in the house and then shoots himself. These are others, or whatever, it’s always right,

Evan Nappen 26:36

Mishandling.

Teddy Nappen 26:37

You always see that. So, apparently this stems from Brady United, you know, Brady’s still a thing, apparently. They decided to meet with. This, is right from the NPR website. (https://www.npr.org/2022/06/13/1104594849/hollywood-pledge-onscreen-guns) Two hundred screenwriters, producers, studio executives, talking about responsibility of depicting firearms in film and television. We are partnering with major partners like Paramount, Walt Disney Studios, CBS Studios. To date, an estimated 150 viewers have watched Project Brady has influenced things like from HBO Euphoria – it’s not even cracking anywhere – from people caring about that show to Netflix, Little House on the Prairie reboot. Again, something no one else also isn’t really watching. Just bear in mind, I love how everyone’s screaming about, like, Paramount is like big in with conservatives and Trump. They’ve made some good shows, but they also produced the most woke Star Trek series known to man, where you had a retarded AI who was also a he/she/it. Like it’s that, so it’s that level.

Evan Nappen 26:37

They almost covered all the bases.

Teddy Nappen 27:23

I know, right? And then, like, there was a gay.

Evan Nappen 27:26

I heard they modeled a lot of it after Tim Walsh, right? Anyway.

Teddy Nappen 27:56

Well, good luck with that. But yeah, and so they outlined this. Our show gun safety principles. I think they ripped this off of our range principle, but okay. To help Hollywood model safer behaviors around guns. We’re not just changing the story, we’re saving lives. Page – 9 – of 12

Evan Nappen 28:27

Well, you know, okay. What they’re doing here is they love to call every gun rights oppression law is a “gun safety law”. Gun safety to them is just banning guns, banning gun rights, going after in every way they can us and our rights and our guns. They just put it under a banner of safety. So, anytime I hear that they’re promoting so-called “gun safety”, well, gun safety to them is not what gun safety is necessarily to us. Now, if it was honestly showing better gun safety in the media, I’m not against that. I’m all for safe gun handling, but I tell you what. I have an idea better than what the gun rights oppressionists are pushing, where they’re trying to get the writers to write it into the stories.

Evan Nappen 29:39

Here’s something very simple that could be done, but they’ll never do it. Here’s what needs to be done. You know, at the beginning of many movies and shows, there are warnings. Warning” contains sexual or smoking. They even warn about, you know, violence. They warn about all kinds of racial stereotypes. They put all these warnings at the beginning. Here’s a warning I want to see on every show and movie before it’s shown. “The following shows improper handling of firearms.” Put it as a warning. Do you know how many times you would see that warning? On every show. And what it would do? It would show America just how bad the entertainment world is, just how bad these shows are for what they show. Anytime a gun is used illegally or improperly, that show should have the warning. “Firearms here are being shown used illegally and improperly.” However, you want to word the warning.

Evan Nappen 31:00

Every time that warning would come up, it would send the message. Look who is showing wrongdoing. It’s the media. So, it would go hand in hand with arguably what The Trace and these guys, Brady and all are trying to do. It would go hand in hand with it. They want to promote safety. We’ll put warnings when the unsafety is being shown. I’d love to see that. Look, I don’t want to restrict anybody’s First Amendment. It’s just a warning about what’s coming up. I’m not looking to have any kind of censorship on it. They can show unsafe gun handling all day long, but just put a warning up front that that’s what’s coming. If you can warn about smoking, warn about offensive language, if you can warn about all this other, why not warn about that?

Teddy Nappen 32:02

I remember there was a, I think it was either Bloomberg or Everytown who put out after there was a big shooting, and they got a lot of Hollywood actors who were just naming off mass shootings. Someone did a super cut showing them misusing firearms in movies, just to show the hypocrisy. It’s very hilarious. This is just them also running cover because of the violence depicted in movies, because they have that. Not talking about, they don’t talk about that. They want to talk about the gun. But here’s the three principles, just as a reminder. Model responsible gun ownership, especially secure storage. Show the consequences of reckless gun use. What’s reckless? Oh, you know, defending yourself with a firearm. Have at least one conversation during pre-production on the ways guns will be portrayed on screen. And this is most important of all. Limit scenes with children and guns. That right there is important, because you want to. Page – 10 – of 12

Evan Nappen 33:10

Because they want to make the younger generation not have any familiarity or love of firearms whatsoever. It’s not let’s teach how to shoot safely and properly, and enjoy shooting sports, and mature to be able to have the ability to defend yourself and your family. No, no, shut them out of it. Shut them out of it. Get them out of it. We don’t want to have the young being gun owners in the future, and this is how we stop it.

Teddy Nappen 33:47

Yeah, and then they highlight their successes. They bring up. I love this one. They bring up Tulsa King. There’s a scene where a character is teaching his girl how to shoot. He’s just going through like the very first rule of gun safety first. Safety always. It’s especially important. Always assume the gun is loaded. Never point anything you’re not intending to shoot. I like how they take credit for just basic range safety. Like we did that.

Evan Nappen 34:19

I like, you know, back when America was America, you had great movies like Shane. I mean, one of the greatest scenes in Shane is with Alan Ladd and the young boy, who’s enthralled with him and his firearm. Like any young boy should be. And remember the mom is like, “Oh, I don’t want my son, I don’t want my son having guns and dealing with guns. And what does he say? Marion, a gun is just a tool.” And there you go. One of the, you know, most awesome, pro-Second Amendment rights statement. Making it clear a gun is just a tool, Marion. And it is. It’s a tool for our safety. It’s a tool for our liberty. It’s a tool for our freedom. It’s a tool for our security. That’s the kind of message we love to see.

Teddy Nappen 35:17

For me, I like “The River of No Return”.

Evan Nappen 35:22

You would like that.

Teddy Nappen 35:23

Yeah. Where the guy has his son, who wants to learn how to shoot. He learns, and he saves his dad through back shooting. After he gets.

Evan Nappen 35:32

Hey, there you go, man. He saved his dad. Hey, look, didn’t John Wayne in (The Man Who Shot) Liberty Valance kind of do that anyway? In The Shootest, he didn’t want to shoot anybody in the back, but I kind of thought that happened in Liberty Valance. Maybe was not crystal clear, but he definitely ambushed him to save Jimmy Stewart, right?

Teddy Nappen 35:52

Yeah, Jimmy Stewart. Page – 11 – of 12

Evan Nappen 35:53

He saved Jimmy Stewart’s ass with that shot. So, yeah, no, but look, what’s wrong with saving lives, and the good guys winning? I mean, that’s nice, you know. Beating the bad guys, not being a victim. Nothing wrong with that. As long as you’re justified and legal, and there you go. That works.

Teddy Nappen 36:14

And then this is something I wanted to highlight, though, for people to remember. They got to all these show writers they had, for instance, like all signed this ridiculous letter. It was JJ Abrams, you know, the guy that ruined Star Trek. You have all these actors, producers, and directors signing this Brady show gun safety letter, this open letter. “Guns are prominently featured in TV and movies in every corner of the globe, but only America has a gun violence epidemic.” Okay, cut to the rest of the world. First, already debunked. “The responsibility lies with lax gun laws supported by those politicians more afraid of losing power than saving lives.” There we go. Another one right there. Lax laws. Thinking they’ll save lives. “We didn’t cause the problem, but we want to help fix it.” As America’s storytellers, our goal is to primarily entertain . . .” That’s not true in Hollywood. “. . . but we also acknowledge that stories have the power to effect change.”

Evan Nappen 37:16

They’re a propaganda factory is what they are.

Teddy Nappen 37:18

Correct. “Cultural attitude towards smoking, drunk driving, seat belts, and marriage equality have all evolved due in large part to movies’ and TV’s influence.” I’m pretty sure people are still drinking and driving. I’m pretty sure people are smoking, but now they’re vaping. So, that’s a whole.. and now, because that, they have to turn it towards vaping. And seat belts, okay, and marriage equality, okay. Now, the point now where they’ve lost.

Evan Nappen 37:49

The whole political agenda through their propaganda efforts through entertainment. Hey, Teddy, I want to tell you about a very important GOFU this week. This week’s GOFU, remember, GOFUs are Gun Owner Fuck Ups. These are actual cases. Real deal things that you need to know. These are expensive lessons that somebody else has paid for that you get to learn for free. This week’s GOFU is really something that you may not have considered before, but you really should. If you ride motorcycles and such, make sure that the holster you use is not a clip-on style holster. You know, the kind. Make sure it’s an actual belt looped, so that your holster doesn’t come off while you’re riding your motorcycle. Because particularly susceptible.

Evan Nappen 38:55

Now, granted, this can happen in a car, too. In a car, the firearm is going to end up on your floor of your car. But on a motorcycle, if that holster comes off the belt because it’s a clip on, even with the gun in it, or for that matter, if the gun falls out of the holster, you want to make sure your holster securely holds a firearm. You have to make sure the holster is secured to your belt. In motorcycling, with the vibration, the noise, etc., it’s very easy for an individual not to notice it falling off one’s body. You know you’re riding your bike and all that’s going on with the vibration and the road bumping and all these things Page – 12 – of 12

you’re dealing with, and it’s very easy to have that type of clip on holster come off. And then what happens? The gun and the holster fall off somewhere on your ride, and you don’t even realize it.

Evan Nappen 40:12

Once you realize that you’ve lost it, you have 36 hours to report it lost or stolen in New Jersey, and this now jeopardizes, potentially, you being able to maintain your gun licenses. And if somebody else gets a hold of that gun, there can be further issues. So, please make sure that your holster is on your belt in a way that it cannot be removed unless you intentionally take it off through the loops. It’s very important. You don’t want to become a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 40:54

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 41:05

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E296_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 295-Bang and Bong… You just got BothAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 12

Gun Lawyer Transcript – Episode 295

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court ruling, Second Amendment, marijuana prohibition, gun rights, NRA, ACLU, Justice Thomas, Commerce Clause, firearm regulation, self-defense, Bruen framework, gun violence, international gun laws, warning shots, New Jersey gun law.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, just now we just got word of the Supreme Court handing down the ruling in the Hemani case, and this is really quite a startling win. (https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-1234_g2bh.pdf) Not necessarily because it was a win, but because it was a unanimous win! What we have is the U.S. Supreme Court in a nine to zero opinion essentially determining the unconstitutionality of marijuana creating a gun prohibitor under federal law. So, for these years you’ve had issues, and we’ve talked about it on the show, where folks that had even a medical marijuana weed card, or they used, or they had any kind of history of prior possession/conviction for misdemeanor marijuana. All that has caused just a lot of folks to not be able to exercise their Second Amendment rights. In the past, we actually coined the term from the show, “Bang or Bong, you can’t have both”. Because of how they, they being the Government, how the Government was interpreting this. To the degree where federal dealers were issued memoranda from ATF telling them that they could not sell to these folks that admitted to using all this regarding marijuana and laid out this as enforceable prohibition.

Evan Nappen 02:15

And by the way, this is also the thing that Hunter Biden was prosecuted for. Hunter Biden’s gun case is essentially this issue as well. So, we’re happy to say, and not necessarily for any reason because of Hunter Biden, but because it is a win for the Second Amendment. To see a unanimous decision. Let that sink in, folks. Every judge on the Supreme Court agreeing with an enforcement of the Second Amendment. Just that alone, regardless of the issue, is really great to see. Just that. Here there were interesting bed fellows, as they say. We had the lawsuit challenge, etc., the legal action, joined the NRA and the ACLU on the same side. So, we had both the NRA and the ACLU on the same side arguing for this. To not prohibit individuals from Second Amendment rights. So, this is very significant, and it’s interesting. Page – 2 – of 12

Evan Nappen 03:39

Judge Gorsuch delivered the opinion of the Court. In the facts of this case, Hemani used marijuana a few times a week, and because of that the Government claimed that he’s automatically banned from possessing a firearm under federal law. And because Hemani admitted that he owns a gun, despite the ban, the Government was now seeking to prosecute him. To imprison him for up to 15 years and disarm him for life. This case here posed that question, whether the Government’s prosecution of Hemani is consistent with the Second Amendment. A unanimous decision found that it was not consistent with the Second Amendment. So, Teddy, what do you think about this decision?

Teddy Nappen 04:40

Well, for me, as soon as this case came out, I had to look. What did Judge Thomas say? Because he’s the funniest of them all.

Evan Nappen 04:49

Well, that’s true.

Teddy Nappen 04:50

I had to go right to his opinion. And of course, Justice Thomas, being the greatest justice to have ever lived, and the fact that he is an originalist to perfection. Of course, he said we did not go far enough! Particularly, and I love how he writes this. “I agree with the Court that 922(g)(3) violates the Second Amendment as applied to respondent Ali Hemani, and I join it’s opinion in full. I write separately to call attention to another issue: As a matter of both original meaning and this Court’s precedents . . .” It appears to exceed Congressional enumerated power and regulate interstate commerce. He attacks the commerce clause throughout this. He even highlights the fact that the Government, if the firearms possession by the drug user had previously traveled through interstate commerce, the commerce clause does not authorize Congress to regulate or ban possession of any item that has ever been offered for sale or cross state lines. He cites Alderman. His dissent is on the denial of certiorari, where this conversion of congressional authority under the commerce clause to a general police power is sort retained by the states.

Evan Nappen 06:12

You see, this is really important, Teddy. Because what Judge Thomas is doing there is he’s going beyond. He’s looking at the power grab, the overreach of the power of interstate commerce. And ever since the expansion of that Wickard versus Filburn. (https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/317/111/) Ever since the expansion of that, it basically empowered the Government, the federal Government, to do anything it wants, as long as they can make some tenuous argument that it somehow affects interstate commerce. And I’m really glad to see that he’s out there, at least as a voice trying to pull back that insane power grab that occurred back under Franklin Delano Roosevelt,

Teddy Nappen 06:58

As you’re reading through his opinion, too, he takes a bat directly to the congressional authority. He bashes the commerce clause directly of how. How is it that something travels, like, how does that fall Page – 3 – of 12

under interstate commerce when it’s not traveling between the states? He is going at it hard, outlining each bit case by case, showing the abuse by it. He even highlights how, I love this line, the gun possession statute issues in Lopez is not a regulation of economic activity, but a law to combat “crime and violence”, even at the local level. Literally calls it out. How is this economic activity when you’re just doing this for regulating crime?

Evan Nappen 07:48

Oh yeah. Well, you know, in the decision, this is very interesting, they, they being the Court, outline their ruling, and why. And I think you’ll find it very interesting here, where they talk about that Mr. Hemani. He admitted his use of marijuana, and he knowingly possessed the gun in his home, being an “unlawful user of the substance”. And if you look at that, it seems to fit exactly what the law is prohibiting. And what the actual holding of the Supreme Court held that the Government’s prosecution of Hermani under 922 unlawful user provision is inconsistent with the Second Amendment. And here in the holding it actually says the Second Amendment protects the rights of all Americans, but they had that in quotes to keep and bear firearms for self-defense. So, there’s even an affirmation of the right to self-defense. They are citing Heller with that.

Evan Nappen 09:15

Though, like most individual rights, it has its limits to determine when the Government infringes on the Second Amendment. The court begins by asking whether the amendment’s terms cover the conduct in question. If so, the Constitution presumptively protects it. That’s citing Bruen. To overcome the presumption, the Government bears the burden. The Government bears the burden of showing its regulatory efforts are consistent with the nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. That is the test, and the burden is on the Government to have to show it. The Government need not point to a historical twin or precise historical precursor that’s from Rahimi, that’s the Rahimi case. Instead, the appropriate analysis involves considering whether the challenged regulation is consistent with the principles that underpin our regulatory tradition. The government may reason by analogy. This is where the battle comes in, in our fight for our Second Amendment rights

Evan Nappen 10:35

Now, it says further, the Government accepts this framework, and they proceeded to argue from it. So, this is very exciting in terms of the test being applied. The court looking at the Government’s argument of traditional habitual drunkards losing their rights, and the court, through the opinion, just absolutely distinguishes between this marijuana ban and historical precedent concerning habitual drunkards. Then they also put into play about the decision being narrow. And here’s where, Teddy, what you just said about Justice Thomas, he wants it to be broad. But the decision itself says it’s narrow. It does not address efforts to ban addicts or those presently intoxicated from possessing a firearm. Then it also talks about whether individuals convicted of felonies could be prosecuted. So, they tried to contain it narrowly. But if you step back and just look at the big picture in regards to a nine to zero opinion on a gun rights issue, that to me is probably the most outstanding thing about it. We got the whole Court on board. Page – 4 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 12:21

I will say, if you go to Jackson’s “concurrent opinion”, she doesn’t even talk about the case. She literally spends the entire thing bashing Bruen. I was reading through it, and she literally just spends the entire thing in full. She says I write to emphasize my scrutiny. The court applies to the, we adopted Bruen be his “history and tradition metric”, which more rational way of assessing the Constituent’s regulations. Bruen is unworkable, and it creates such a vulnerability of inconsistent, arbitrary application. Oh, like most gun laws?

Evan Nappen 13:01

Yeah. Well, keep in mind the politics here. She’s purposely trying to attack Thomas over Bruen. And yet, what she can’t stand is that she’s ruling in favor of the Second Amendment. But in so doing, it means that Bruen is being empowered here. She’s like the computer on Star Trek. She’s going to explode that it’s now affecting the issue of marijuana, and the ACLU is on this side. Yet, how could she actually use, you know, Thomas’s brilliance here, even though it’s what she believes is the right thing to do, but can’t give credit. So, it’s like, you know, she’s just exploding over it. But she still has to side with the full unanimous majority, and that’s why it is that astounding. Because even a justice like her, who is so blatantly politically and hardly viewed as an educated jurist here by comparison to so many of the others on the Court. This is what you see happen. So, it’s pretty good there.

Evan Nappen 15:19

Like applying the Constitution instead of, “It’s a living document”, which it isn’t, and start applying that whole.

Teddy Nappen 15:41

Fine, just no, just no, fine, fine. No 19th Amendment, got it. Like it’s so ridiculous. So, they only apply it when they choose to.

Evan Nappen 15:53

Hey, but even with all that said. It was still nine to zero, in favor of 2A. So, for that we can be happy to see. And of course, we’re now waiting for Wolford, and that is a “sensitive places” decision, which should also be very interesting on how they rule on “sensitive places”.

Teddy Nappen 16:14

Do you remember the commemorative for the Heller? The revolver they did.

Evan Nappen 16:19

Yes, I have one.

Teddy Nappen 16:21

I want, whoever is the top AR maker, I want them to do a commemorative to the case when we finally get the constitutionality on the assault weapon ban, and finally getting those removed. That would be awesome. Like, just seeing that. Who do you think would be making that? Page – 5 – of 12

Evan Nappen 16:39

Yeah, I’m sure there’ll be all kinds of guns. Well, you know, that’s funny. You know I have that Smith & Wesson when Heller came out.

Teddy Nappen 16:47

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 16:47

And Smith did a limited run of the 38 J-frame Smith and Wessons, and they are engraved on the side with the Heller decision and scales and all. It’s a pretty cool gun, and they came out with it pretty fast, right after the Heller decision. But I actually got Dick Heller himself, the Heller of the Heller decision, to sign the gun. So, I have a Heller commemorative Smith signed by Heller himself.

Teddy Nappen 17:23

Don’t you have one for McDonald too, as well? I could have sworn there was a commemorative for that also.

Evan Nappen 17:30

Yeah, yeah. I do, yeah. McDonald. But I also have a very collectible commemorative knife, Teddy. It’s a full kitchen knife, and it’s actually signed by Bobbitt. Remember the Bobbitt case? I have a knife that is signed by John Bobbitt there. And what he wrote on the knife, in addition to his name, he wrote “always sleep on your stomach”. Pretty good. Always sleep on your stomach, you know. Signed by Bobbitt. So, it’s a big kitchen butcher-style knife, a big chef’s knife. It’s definitely a great collectible.

Teddy Nappen 18:18

I wanted him to write “Mr. Happy Went Missing” from the Weird Al. Mr. Happy.

Evan Nappen 18:33

But he wrote: always sleep on your stomach. Okay, if anyone could give that advice, I guess it’s him. So, yeah, well, getting these things signed. Well, Dick Heller signed the gun, Bobbit signed the knife, and I’m not.. Forget it. I’m not going, not doing it, not doing it. So, hey, by the way, Teddy, where’s our favorite ranger that we shoot at? Come on.

Teddy Nappen 19:07

Of course it’s We Shoot, obviously.

Evan Nappen 19:09

That’s right, we do. We go there. We have a blast, and so will you. WeShoot is an indoor range right in Lakewood, New Jersey. It’s conveniently right off the Parkway. A beautiful facility, top of the line, modern. A great place. Great training, great pro shop, great people. It’s where we got our certifications for our carry, our CCARE certifications, and other training as well. You need to check out WeShoot, WeShoot. It’s at wewhootusa.com. Their website is really great. They have beautiful photographs, and they pride themselves in their photography. Make sure you also check out the WeShoot girls. They always have fantastic firearms that they are displaying. And there are sales and specials and deals. Page – 6 – of 12

WeShoot is just great. So, check out weshootusa.com. You’ll be glad you did. It’s a superb resource, you know. We/ve got to really use and protect our ranges, especially in New Jersey, where it’s so crowded and it’s tough to find really great places to shoot. But WeShoot is there filling an important need in protecting our rights. What good is having a gun if you can’t shoot it, man? So, check out weshoot usa.com.

Evan Nappen 20:52

Also, I want to shamelessly promote my book on New Jersey gun law, which, by the way, is called New Jersey Gun Law. You can find it at EvanNappen.com. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, all question and answer. It is the guidebook, the key resource to helping you not become a GOFU. I’ve taken great pride in that, and I think you’ll enjoy it, too. Those that have it know its value. It’s designed as your easy-to-use reference to the insanity that is New Jersey gun law. Go to EvanNappen.com. EvanNappen.com. Get your copy today. Hey, Teddy, I know that you have Press Checks, and I think there’s a pretty fascinating Press Check story that you are going to share with us. What is this story? Tell me.

Teddy Nappen 21:58

Well, we got our first from. Again, Press Checks are always free. This is from “Not the Bee.com”, Joel Abbott. (https://notthebee.com/article/babe-wake-up-british-tourists-are-starting-to-appreciate-the-second-amendment-?from_social=twitter) So, everyone’s been seeing the World Cup. I don’t typically follow soccer or anything on that, but you see all the Europeans coming in. I love that video of the Japanese tourist who brought trash bags and picked up their trash after their game.

Evan Nappen 22:25

They’re very conscientious. That’s very, very good.

Teddy Nappen 22:28

I know, as opposed to the Knicks fans who decided to burn down a bus, but whatever.

Evan Nappen 22:34

Hey, listen. Mom would approve of the trash bag thing, you know that.

Teddy Nappen 22:38

Oh, I know.

Evan Nappen 22:40

Even just at our house, if we did that.

Teddy Nappen 22:43

And the recycling. Can’t forget about that.

Evan Nappen 22:44

That, too. Page – 7 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 22:46

But the one thing that seems to be catching on, because you have all the vloggers and people coming to want to experience America as they’re going to see. They’ve been going to gun ranges and to rent a gun places.

Evan Nappen 23:00

I know. Isn’t that great?

Teddy Nappen 23:01

They’re appreciating our Second Amendment.

Evan Nappen 23:03

It’s actually spreading the understanding to these disarmed, oppressed peoples, and they’re suddenly seeing the light. Particularly, we see the UK folks. They’re like, wait a minute. How did we lose this right?

Teddy Nappen 23:20

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 23:20

How did this happen?

Teddy Nappen 23:22

And it’s very interesting. It’s almost like those videos you always see where it’s the liberals going to the range, and they actually like, oh my right, yeah, you see all these people like, why were they’re waiting for, like, wait, you guys can just do this? They’re always shocked and awe from everything. But one in particular, this was a British guy, Spencer Towering. He does videos. We’ve been totally pacified in the U.K. through the removal of our arms, our right to bear arms. It’s caused a big problem for us. Now our Government is basically turning it into an absolute, tyrannical feminine leadership that is gradually eroding our rights, and there’s really not much we can do about it. Well, there’s one thing you can do. You know, just kind of look to the founding of our nation, and then get some ideas. Or they could look to the risings in Scotland, and try not to, you know, go with, try to not to put the Bonnie Prince on the throne. It didn’t work.

Evan Nappen 24:22

You know, the British even went after an IT consultant.

Teddy Nappen 24:28

Correct.

Evan Nappen 24:29

Because he posed with a gun in the U.S. and posted it on LinkedIn. Page – 8 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 24:34

Yep, just for posing with it.

Evan Nappen 24:36

For posint with a shotgun, an 870 shotgun.

Teddy Nappen 24:40

Yep. Thirteen weeks of hell he went through for sharing a photo of something that wasn’t even taken in the U.K. This is why.

Evan Nappen 24:54

This was pointed out by “Not the Bee”. So, “Not the Bee is a pretty cool aggregate on news sources. And this is.

Teddy Nappen 25:06

Frankly, far funnier than the article.

Evan Nappen 25:09

“Not the Bee” is real stuff that you can’t believe is actually true when it is. As opposed to the “Babylon Bee”, which is parody. “Not the Bee” has real stories in it that you think should be fake, but they’re not. It’s like unbelievable. But this one here is not as outrageous, to be honest, because this is what makes it so great about having rights, you know, and why we got to protect them. We see what it’s like for the folks that live in countries that they claim to make believe are free when they’re not. I mean, we’re still fighting for freedom here, but I mean to think that, you know, claim England is free. The U.K. is free? That’s a joke.

Teddy Nappen 26:00

I’ll point it to you right now. The two you always hyped. I’ve got to highlight this to people all the time. Literally, arresting a woman for thought crime.

Evan Nappen 26:09

Right!

Teddy Nappen 26:09

Arresting a young girl for fighting off a pedophile with an ax and a knife. Going after her. Proven, by the way, that was another article that came out where he was in fact trying to go after minors. He had two prior accounts. But let’s just say the Labor Party didn’t want to mention that part. And the final bit, and I saw this one. For every officer, they’ve arrested like 20, done 20 arrests for hate speech online, whichever, whatever they make up. Like it’s they’re done. They are so gone.

Evan Nappen 26:34

It’s a shame, the formerly Great Britain. But maybe this kind of experience of them seeing America and what it’s about. Not just from a slanted media, but from actually coming here and experiencing America. I mean, just in terms of brisket sandwiches that they’re going crazy for. American food. Page – 9 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 27:11

Even that, like just going into Europe. Anyone ever gone to Europe? You turn on the news, and imagine your only news station was CNN and MSNBC. That’s it. Yeah, that is all they have. They have the state-run everything and news networks. There is no alternative voice. There’s no alternative tech. They ban Rumble and other outlets. So, they can just control the media, and this is what it leads to. Just authoritarian states.

Evan Nappen 27:35

It’s crazy. So, I was looking at this, and you also indicated to me about kind of a crazy international story, Teddy,

Teddy Nappen 27:56

Yes. Let’s just say, you know, at times like this, you should buy a holster. This was in Brazil, where a female suspect, when she was stopped by the military police from Goaz, carried out a body search.

Evan Nappen 28:17

Now, this is in Brazil, right?

Teddy Nappen 28:19

In Brazil

Evan Nappen 28:19

In Brazil. And this is an actual story that is from a “legitimate” news source, right? What’s the source?

Teddy Nappen 28:28

Yeah, it’s right from the Daily Star. (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/moment-female-suspect-pulls-loaded-37287603)

Evan Nappen 28:31

Yeah, okay, and they even have video. They’re showing reports. So, this is actually legit. This is not a parody or a joke? What happened here with the woman?

Teddy Nappen 28:42

The officers located the pair, carried out a stop and search. They showed the armed passengers struggling to remove the firearm from inside her “intimate area”. Physically trying to pull out a loaded pistol from her vagina.

Evan Nappen 28:58

And Teddy, this is not small. They show the gun, and it’s the actual firearm, folks. This is the gun, and they even name the gun, a Taurus 92. That is essentially the Beretta M9, you know, but made by Taurus, a Taurus 92. Basically that 15 to 17 shot, depending on the size of your mag, and that you don’t live in New Jersey. A full size Taurus 92. Or also our military carry gun until the SIG replaced it of the Beretta M9. That full size nine. She pulled it out. How did she? Ouch! Page – 10 – of 12

Teddy Nappen 29:51

You know, I don’t even know how that happened. I don’t think Taurus and Victoria Secret should have partnered up for the Victoria concealed.

Evan Nappen 30:02

And I think they mentioned that it got stuck. It was stuck.

Teddy Nappen 30:05

Yes, it was stuck.

Evan Nappen 30:07

It was stuck, and I can imagine why it was stuck, considering the size of a Taurus slash Beretta 92.

Teddy Nappen 30:15

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 30:15

And it was loaded as well.

Teddy Nappen 30:18

What she should have done was got some rem oil, and that would have helped solve it.

Evan Nappen 30:22

Well, you know, New Jersey has a requirement for your holster to have to cover the trigger guard and the frame and all that. Technically, she might actually have been in compliance if she was under New Jersey gun law, given the requirements for a holster. I don’t know.

Teddy Nappen 30:41

Well, it has to cover the majority of the firearm and the trigger. So.

Evan Nappen 30:49

I mean, this was pretty crazy.

Teddy Nappen 30:53

Yeah, pretty crazy.

Evan Nappen 30:54

But it makes sense in Brazil that there would be a Taurus, since they’re made in Brazil. So, those would be a Brazilian gun.

Teddy Nappen 30:56

You know, I’ll give Taurus credit for the gorilla ad campaign that they. Page – 11 – of 12

Evan Nappen 31:06

Well, Taurus makes other guns, like the Judge. You know, the Judge, the Raging Bull. She didn’t do a Raging Bull. At least she didn’t do the Raging Bull. I mean, it’s bad enough with the Taurus 92.

Teddy Nappen 31:21

It might have been easier with a Public Defender, to be honest.

Evan Nappen 31:24

Right. That’s what she’s gonna need now. After putting a Taurus, being caught with a Taurus 92 there carrying, carrying illegally, no less inappropriately. Now, she’s going to need a public defender to defend her possession of a Taurus.

Teddy Nappen 31:43

and a gynecologist.

Evan Nappen 31:46

Uhuh, maybe she could call the consulate. I don’t know what’s going to happen there. That’s a crazy, crazy story. But hey. You know, just think if she had a North American Arms mini revolver or something, that you know, but a Taurus 92. Oh man.

Teddy Nappen 32:05

I love the mindset of like, okay, this is a good idea, right? Just on the impracticality of like, okay, if I’m ever like, you know, the deal goes bad, and I need to draw this quickly.

Evan Nappen 32:25

I don’t know what. Yeah, where? And then if she was hiding it up there, why did she surrender to the police when she was hiding it? If that was hidden, I mean, do they? I don’t think.

Teddy Nappen 32:39

I think at that point she was just looking for the excuse, because it was probably just had enough.

Evan Nappen 32:44

This just has got to go. Here, just take it, take it. Oh boy. Well, Teddy, that is definitely something to consider in the news on carry, carry news, in terms of method. Now, we have the GOFU, which is a Gun Owner Fuck Up. Now, I think this last, the last story might qualify as a GOFU, but we need to bring it down to a little bit more of a commonality of things that often happen, and that we often see. That are mistakes made.

Teddy Nappen 33:27

Too many times.

Evan Nappen 33:28

Too many times. One of the things we want to really be clear as to a GOFU here is the warning shot. Warning shots are basically mythology. You should not be firing warning shots, because the firing of a Page – 12 – of 12

gun is essentially what’s construed as the use of deadly force. If you’re using deadly force, you have got to be justified in using deadly force. So, we do not in any way recommend the warning shot. In New Jersey, the discharge of the firearm without lawful purpose is an automatic virtual per se felony, as Murphy’s new law has declared it essentially. So, you have the discharge law. Then you have the issues of undercutting your own arguments for use of force. If it was a threat that was justified in using deadly force, why are you firing your firearm without using it to stop the deadly force? Where you feel you can fire it as simply a warning, is it that imminent danger, or is it not that imminent? There’s just so many downsides and negatives to warning shots.

Evan Nappen 34:59

Plus where is the round going? There are cases where you hear, “oh, it was a warning shot, and that’s why I hit them. You’re trying to excuse either the bad aim or whatever under some guys, a warning shot, not a good idea. So, make sure you get your training. Make sure you learn the rules on the use of deadly force. It’s critical that you do that. You can really get jammed up if you don’t understand that dynamic. It’s critical, and it is often not intuitive because of how bad these things are shown on television all the time. Television is not a good education source for learning when you can and can’t use deadly force. If we’re talking about made-for-TV dramas and TV shows and movies, and all that, not a good idea to learn your gun law from there.

Evan Nappen 36:04

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 36:14

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E295_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 294-AG Green-lights Red FlagAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 14

Gun Lawyer — Episode 294 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun Lawyer, New Jersey, ERPO, gun confiscation, due process, public awareness campaign, gun safety, Second Amendment, red flag law, wellness check, gun rights, gun violence, civil rights, gun storage, gun laws.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 2, Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what have you discovered in your travels?

Teddy Nappen 00:30

Well, first off, you can stop pestering me. I finally watched Project Hail Mary.

Evan Nappen 00:36

I love that movie. It was fun. Didn’t you like it, man?

Teddy Nappen 00:40

I thought it was. I will give it credit for a movie that’s almost three hours long. You stay. You don’t want to like check your phone or anything. You’re actually very engaged. And I was like.

Evan Nappen 00:51

True!

Teddy Nappen 00:51

The last 40 minutes, I’m like, okay, everything’s solved, what’s left for plot? And then they actually made it more interesting.

Evan Nappen 00:59

Yes! Don’t, don’t spoil it for people.

Teddy Nappen 01:01

No, no spoils. Page – 2 – of 14

Evan Nappen 01:02

It’s a good one, and it is a very interesting statement about Government.

Teddy Nappen 01:12

I was thinking also Stoicism.

Evan Nappen 01:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They did a great job. I really enjoyed it. So, anyways. I love talking about movies. However, this is Gun Lawyer, man, and we talk about important New Jersey.

Teddy Nappen 01:32

Fine.

Evan Nappen 01:33

And beyond the borders of New Jersey.

Teddy Nappen 01:38

We’ll open with this: the Attorney General’s a jerk.

Evan Nappen 01:42

Wait a minute! Don’t go disparaging our beloved Attorney General. But why are you not happy with what the Attorney General has done?

Teddy Nappen 01:51

Well, I love when they’re advertising, effectively legalized swatting, in this latest article. Right from the Attorney General’s Office. ” Attorney General Davenport, Office of Alternative and Community Responses launches gun safety public awareness campaign”. (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-davenport-office-of-alternative-and-community-responses-launch-gun-safety-public-awareness-campaign/) I want to meet the marketing team that comes up with these titles.

Evan Nappen 02:14

Which always, if it’s Gun Safety Public Awareness Team, let me guess. They’re using their office to promote citizen self-defense so that citizens are no longer victims, but can defend themselves against criminals, right? Isn’t that what they’re promoting? And helping citizens to understand their use of force and self -defense, and complete dedication to the Second Amendment, right? Am I correct?

Teddy Nappen 02:41

I think you forgot this is with New Jersey, but yeah.

Evan Nappen 02:45

Oh, what did they do instead? Tell me. Page – 3 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 02:47

Oh, so from the article that they put out, Attorney General Davenport of the office has launched a multi-year public awareness campaign to raise awareness about the life-saving potential of New Jersey’s Extreme Risk Protection Orders (ERPOs).

Evan Nappen 03:06

Ah, the Red Flag.

Teddy Nappen 03:07

Wow!

Evan Nappen 03:07

So, they believe that it is life saving. Try life destroying! If you’re a gun owner and you get hit with one of these ERPOs, as we talked about on a prior show, simply talking to Chat GBT led to this. Where not only were the guns seized, not only is your house searched, but you’re taken away for a “wellness check”. And with his inability to give a urine sample, they shoved a catheter up his penis. All over the wonderful ERPO situation. Isn’t that great? How that all works out. So, there’s a lot of downside, unless you don’t consider forced catheterization up your penis, a downside. I don’t know. Today you don’t know. But these are the kind of things that can come from ERPOs and wellness checks. It’s just astounding. Astounding.

Teddy Nappen 04:19

What is astounding is I love how they twist it. Just reading the article, you can feel it. I always go back to that line from “Untouchables” – “Let’s do some good.” They actually think this is going to solve problems. Or right here from the Attorney General. ERPOs are a proven tool for preventing tragedies. How do I know? I pulled it out. They didn’t actually say that. We are committed to using all the tools at our disposal.

Evan Nappen 04:52

This is what they put out. But the reality of it is, it’s a tool for disenfranchisement of Second Amendment rights, and it’s a tool of confiscation of guns. It is a tool of gun rights suppression. It is designed for that purpose. There is no due process up front. These are granted ex parte. The person who is served with the ERPO has no clue that it’s coming their way, has no opportunity, before the damage is done to talk or speak or make their case to the judge. This is just gun confiscation in its rawest form with benefits. And the benefits are taking you away for a so-called “wellness check”, while you’re at it, to search and seize giving them the opportunity to review your guns, to take your guns, to search your house, to invade your Fourth Amendment rights as well. All done under this guise.

Evan Nappen 05:40

This is something we in the firm here deal with these all the time, and the public awareness campaign is designed to get more people to jump on this. No matter how weak the claim is. No matter whether it’s for reasons that are unproven. It doesn’t matter! They want these ERPOs, which, when they initially issued, are called TERPOs, Temporary Extremist Protection Orders. Only after the issuance of the TERPO do you finally get a hearing where you get to try to fight to challenge it from becoming a final, Page – 4 – of 14

what we call a FERPO. And if it takes place in Burlington or Bergen County, then you, of course, are getting a BURPO. I’m just kidding about that. They don’t call them BURPOs, but it is a pretty bad, rotten, terrible law. It is the most extreme ERPO law in the country, and it is just rights violation from the get-go.

Teddy Nappen 07:32

Well, also, if you’re going through the article, they’re talking about the public awareness campaign they’re going to be doing. They say the ERPO awareness is leading up to the National Gun Violence Awareness Month in June. I thought June was also Pride Month, but you know they kind of go hand in hand with the recent mass shootings. It’s one of those.

Evan Nappen 07:58

It’s like National Brotherhood Month. Be glad we don’t celebrate it the rest of the year.

Teddy Nappen 08:04

I know. You know what?

Evan Nappen 08:05

That’s the old Tom Lehrer joke.

Teddy Nappen 08:07

You know what? I’m very aware of the gun violence. That’s why people want to be armed to defend themselves, but continue. Then they go on about using like billboards, bus shelters, radio platforms. Oh, by the way, everything will be in Spanish, too. They were very bold in that, and they made it very clear it’ll be in English and Spanish. So, okay.

Evan Nappen 08:30

Well, the propaganda that gets generated out of New Jersey is intense, and it is going to create more and more confiscations and misery for law-abiding gun owners and their gun rights. That’s the reality of what is going on. They have these very cute images on this article. I see where they are going to promote this operation, and it’s like they’re meme articles. Because of an ERPO, they’re still here. They show two people, then they have another one. Because of an ERPO, he’ll graduate in June. Really? Then there’s another one. Learn the facts about ERPO. Stop gun deaths. Need to talk. . . blah blah blah.

Evan Nappen 09:27

Okay, you know what? We could do our own memes here. You know, we could have, because of an ERPO, this person, this law-abiding gun owner, just had their life ruined, just had their home invaded, just had their family heirloom guns seized, just had to go through an expensive court process just to get back to square one. Because of an ERPO, the person was taken in for a completely unnecessary wellness check, and had medical procedures done to them against their will. Because of an ERPO, they just have a big dick pic with a catheter in it, and say, because of an ERPO, I was forced to endure this. How about that for a nice image? You know, this is what reality is when you’re in the practice. You see these laws and what they actually do to people, and what doesn’t get told is what I’m telling you Page – 5 – of 14

now. The actual effect of it. Not this fluff and propaganda and claims being made that are not how we have experienced ERPOs in the practice of law. There’s an extreme risk protection website, Teddy, by the way. (https://www.njoag.gov/erpo/)

Teddy Nappen 10:53

Yeah, they have the link.

Evan Nappen 10:53

It talks about ERPOs, and it has a Q and A in it. Let’s take a look at the questions, the Attorney General’s answers, and what I think are the real answers. “Is ERPO the same as a ‘Red Flag’ law?” It’s very similar to what a lot of people know as Red Flag law that exists in other states, even among states that use the name ERPO. There are some technical legal differences. Be sure any information you get about ERPOs is specific to New Jersey. Yes, the similarity ends with New Jersey not having any due process upfront. It’s not just a Red Flag law. It’s a bright Red, no due process upfront law. Other states that may have Red Flag laws do it where you get due process up front before the order is even issued. Not in New Jersey. So, yeah, it’s different. It’s different in an extremely gun rights suppression manner. “Why are ERPOs needed?” Well, an ERPO is an immediate step that can be taken to stop a violent situation before it starts, by temporarily removing firearms from a person who’s at risk of harming themselves or others.

Evan Nappen 12:10

Yeah, it’s also an immediate step that can be taken to SWAT somebody and an immediate step that can be taken when information is misconstrued. It’s also an immediate step that can be taken without even truly determining whether there is an actual risk of harm to oneself or another, because the one person they’re concerned about never gets an opportunity up front to actually explain whether there is or isn’t such a risk. “Why do people file for ERPOs?” Because they’ve seen warning signs that someone close to them is at high risk of using a firearm to harm themselves or others. Filing a petition for an ERPO provides safety for everyone involved and gives the person in crisis an opportunity to seek help. Really? Well, so-called warning signs, again not evaluated up front, high risk, again not evaluated up front with any input from the person who becomes the victim of this ERPO. Filing a petition for ERPO provides safety for everyone. No, it actually doesn’t provide safety for everyone. In fact, it endangers law-abiding gun owners. There are cases on record, Teddy, about individuals being swatted over false ERPOs, and they end up getting killed by police because they don’t even know what’s going on in this raid. They had no clue, right, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 13:42

It’s one of those things that’s very disgusting, just the very insidious nature of this. It is legalized swatting, and there’s no way about it. Like, you can just make something up, say someone said something or did something, and they’ll hand them out like candy. Then you get your life destroyed, just going through the process. And I love, I love the article. Their whole thing in it, where they’re saying we need to dispel the myths. The whole, yeah, dispel the myths. Page – 6 – of 14

Evan Nappen 14:16

To create an entire myth about what it is. “What’s a temporary ERPO?” A judge can issue a temporary ERPO if they believe the at-risk person is an imminent threat to themselves or others. Isn’t it amazing that a judge can do this, believing the at-risk person is an immediate threat to themselves or others with never speaking to the so-called at risk person. Never talking to them in advance. And a TERPO is in effect until the hearing for a final, which is typically scheduled within 10 days. And let me tell you, yeah, there’s a railroading, after your life has been turned upside down, of the hearing on the final having to take place in 10 days. After all the damage has been done, after your house has been raided, after you’ve been forced into a wellness check, after you’ve had your property seized. And do you think it’s cared for real well when it’s seized? After you’ve had this entire ordeal, then within 10 days of it, you’re supposed to have a hearing. Are you ready for that hearing? You don’t even know what hit you. How are you going to be prepared and do that? It’s railroading you into a FERPO, instead of giving due process up front on the TERPO.

Teddy Nappen 15:37

The article tries to paint it like the court judges may issue them after carefully reviewing the individual circumstances, and prompted by the petition filed by a relative, household member, or law enforcement officer. The ERPO is issued only after several factors are considered. Whether they have been arrested, charged, convicted, disorderly persons, domestically.

Evan Nappen 16:01

One of those factors, Teddy, as we’ve reviewed. One of the factors is has recently acquired a firearm. That’s actually a factor for an ERPO. That you’ve gotten a gun, that means that you got a pistol purchase permit and got a gun, or went to the gun dealer and bought a gun. That’s now an ERPO factor, as a fact to take your gun, is that you just got a gun. It’s literally a factor in the law.

Teddy Nappen 16:27

Well, the article ignores that factor. Gee, I wonder why?

Evan Nappen 16:31

They don’t list all the factors, because they’re so outrageously vague and unbelievable. And again, done ex parte. “What is a final ERPO?” Before a final ERPO is issued, this is all from their Q and A, a person at risk will have a chance to present evidence and testimony to the judge. If the judge believes they’re immediate threat of ERPO, so what does it say? Before the final. That’s the only time you’re going to get your chance is after the TERPO, the temporary order has issued. “How long does a final ERPO last?” It stays in effect until the person who filed the petition or the person at risk asks the judge to end it. If the at-risk person is seeking to end the order, they must prove to the judge they’re no longer a danger to themselves or others. So, the burden of proof switches to the victim of the ERPO. The person whose rights have just been taken away from them and had their life turned upside down. The burden is shifted for them to have to prove, in effect, their innocence. Prove they’re no longer a danger. Go ahead and prove the negative. Good luck with that. Page – 7 – of 14

Evan Nappen 17:47

“What information goes into the petition?” You’ll need to provide specific information about dangerous behavior or threats you’ve witnessed. If the person owns any firearms, provide all information you may know about firearms they own or have access to. So, now you have the ratting out, the giving of the information, the revealing of any firearms, so that they may be confiscated. Backdoor gun confiscation. Let’s have an entire propaganda campaign designed to do this. Even in their Q and A, all the gun information goes. “Does it cost money to file?” No, there’s no filing fee. There’s actually something you can do in Nwe Jersey that they won’t charge you for, and that’s if you aid and abet New Jersey in the seizure of guns in the disenfranchisement of an individual’s gun rights. They won’t charge you for that. Isn’t that nice of them?

Evan Nappen 18:47

“Is the person arrested or taken into custody?” No, but they will eventually be required to appear in court. Ahh, let’s talk about that. Person arrested or taken into custody? Well, when they do the combo with the wellness check, you’re taken in. And they say, if you don’t voluntarily go, we’ll make you go. Oh, we just searched your home for guns, and we found that one of your magazines holds 11 rounds instead of 10. You’re getting arrested. Or any other condition that they want to turn into criminality, you’re going to be arrested and taken into custody. And if there’s any type of other allegations made, you’ll face those charges.

Evan Nappen 19:37

Remember, this isn’t just done in a vacuum. So, it’s extremely misleading to say a person isn’t arrested or taken into custody when very often that’s exactly what happens. We’ve seen it because of the collateral damage that occurs from the TERPO. “Does an ERPO go on a criminal record?” No, it’s a civil matter, not a punitive punishment. You see, they don’t consider taking your guns and taking your gun rights punitive or punishment. No, this is just civil. Its purpose is to give the person in danger of harming themselves or others, an opportunity to address the crisis. You see, this is being done for your own protection. We’re doing this just for you, gun owners. We’re doing it to help you, because we love you so much. It’s not punitive at all.

Evan Nappen 20:34

Except you go into a database that declares you to be an extreme risk. Do you think being in that database is going to help you get a job? Do you think being in the extreme risk database that ERPOs put you in is going to be helpful to you? Do you think that’s going to help you travel, let’s say on an airplane? Do you think it’s going to help you anytime a background check is done on you? So, does it have an actual criminal record? No, because there’s no criminal conviction. So, it would not be a criminal record. But notice it doesn’t say, do you get a record? Because the answer to that misleading way it’s presented is yes. You’re damn right. You will have a record. You will have a record of having an ERPO and being put in a database and on a list of being an extreme risk. But they don’t bother mentioning that in their Q and A.

Teddy Nappen 21:39

Oh, this is what happens. Page – 8 – of 14

Evan Nappen 21:41

Go ahead, Teddy. What?

Teddy Nappen 21:42

Well, what I was going to say is one thing that does point, like jump at the article with me. All this can be made possible from a competitive grant award from the “Byrne State Crisis Intervention Program” (SCIP) Grant which is administrated through the U.S. Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Assistance. (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-davenport-office-of-alternative-and-community-responses-launch-gun-safety-public-awareness-campaign/ – last paragraph) So, the insidious nature of SCIP. Oh, you know what happens whenever you get thrown in, because you think, oh, he may have said he said something like, oh, he’s had some bad thoughts. We need to get him into the crisis intervention unit. He needs to be evaluated. So, the doctors who evaluate you, who think you’re crazy or think you’re extreme, throw you into the nut house as well. That same group is pushing for Red Flag. Amazing!

Evan Nappen 22:27

They are, because it goes together with it. And then it says, “What happens to firearms when an ERPO is approved?” Firearms, ammunition, and license to purchase, own, and carry must be surrendered to law enforcement. What also happens is you get put on the ERPO list. And if you fail to have guns turned in, if you fail to file that order, you can be criminally charged for contempt. Then you become a prohibited person after that to ever possess firearms and ammunition, very similar to being a convicted felon. But notice none of that is explained either. Then it says, “When are firearms returned?” When a judge terminates the order. Well, let me just tell you right now, that’s not in the law. We have cases on this right now. You can go in to court, and you can win a TERPO. But the TERPO was defeated after your guns were seized and you went through all that. There’s nothing in the statute that orders the guns themselves returned. So, if the Attorney General is now saying that firearms are returned when the judge terminates the order, great! Because we have cases right now where this very answer and question I want to explain why it hasn’t happened to our clients. Because it’s not in the law! And fighting to get it back afterwards, after you win the TERPO, where a FERPO is not granted, it’s exactly what a client we had on a couple shows ago. He talked about that very thing, that very problem. They asked, How is ERPO different? Go ahead, Teddy, what?

Teddy Nappen 24:20

Well, I was going to say is the thing that if you kind of go through all this, looking at like the article, what they’re talking about, they are just doing all their best to muddy the waters. Trying to like no, no, no, no, it’s perfectly fine. We’re just going to take the firearms away, and then it won’t be a problem. Then if everything’s calm and the State has deemed you not an extreme risk. What do we mean by that? Well, we’ll determine that from a political judge.

Evan Nappen 24:54

Ask any gun owner that’s gone through this, and they’ll tell you it’s a nightmare. This is designed to create more nightmares for New Jersey gun owners. Here, “Do ERPOs stop violence?” Evidence suggests ERPOs are an effective violence prevention tool, particularly in cases of suicide or mass shootings. Suggests it. They don’t prove it. Instead we have tremendous violation of due process rights Page – 9 – of 14

in this “suggestion” of what people go through. No actual hard evidence that it even accomplishes what it is intended to do. And of course, potential suicide or mass shootings. Well, of course, if someone’s hell bent to kill themselves, last I heard, a gun wasn’t the only way to do it. If the person is determined to engage in criminal acts, a piece of paper will not stop that person. So, who is it really affecting? The law-abiding citizens. They’re the ones who pay the price.

Evan Nappen 26:04

And then last question here, “What happens if the petition for an ERPO gets denied?” Now, notice this is really interesting. The last question is, what happens if ERPO gets denied? It says, if the municipal court denies a petition for a TERPO, the person who filed it can request an immediate hearing in Superior Court. If the Superior Court judge is the one who denied the TERPO or denies the final, the person who filed can appeal to the Appel Division within 45 days of the denial. Notice what they don’t say. What happens if a petition is granted? Do they tell those people that they have a right to appeal? Do they mention the appellate rights of the victim of the ERPO? No, they don’t. They only tell the person who filed the ERPO of their appellate rights.

Evan Nappen 26:58

Well, let me tell you. If you are hit with these, you have appellate rights. You have the right to challenge it and appeal it. They don’t mention that on their website. It’s supposed to be so informative. To cut through the so-called misunderstandings and misinformation out there about ERPOs, but they don’t even tell you about the appellate rights for those that suffer under this non-due process red flag law. New Jersey is probably the most extreme example of ERPO in the country. If not the most extreme, then tied for it. If somebody else is out there that I’m not aware of, that has copied New Jersey’s model.

Teddy Nappen 27:58

I’m just waiting for them to up the ante, where they’re going to combine it with the gun owner gulag, where we’re not only going to arrest you, we’re not just going to ruin your life and take your firearms, we’re going to hold you until trial, and the hearing also takes six months. I’m just, it comes back to the old article that you first wrote, just death penalty to gun owners. They’re at that stage. The left hates us that much, that that’s where they would see the justice, like when it comes to the justice.

Evan Nappen 28:24

They’re never satisfied, and it’s always take, take, take. Then the amount that they want to take, they call a compromise. And then they come back for more “compromise” where they take more. Then they say, well, that’s a great compromise, now we want more. It’s never giving. When do you see rights expanded and respected? When do you see rights restoration to New Jersey gun owners in the broader Second Amendment sense? Only when they’re forced to do it kicking and screaming, such as with carry permits, because of the Bruen decision. They knew they had to issue them, so they created the Carry Killer Law. So, yeah, we’ll issue permits, and we’ll try to make it as impossible as we can for you to actually use the permit by creating 25 “sensitive places” in an absolutely bizarre and confusing matrix. Create all these other requirements upon anybody who chooses to have a carry permit. So, it’s always take rights, take rights, take rights. And even when they’re forced by case law to have to restore freedom, they try to find some other gambit to take freedom yet again. This is the pattern of a gun rights suppression Government. That’s what we’re dealing with here, and that’s what we see. Page – 10 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 30:05

I’m trying to remember. It was a comic artist, like, where he was a free speech advocate, Frank Miller, and there’s a famous comic image that he painted where it was speaking out against the censorship going on in the comic book industry. It’s a picture of a woman, and there are band aids covering her eyes, covering her ears, and then one about to go on her mouth. The hands with the hand blob going, this last one’s for your safety. It just, it’s that insanity twist of believing that this will actually make the community safe. Actually thinking that this will solve the problem when all it does is exacerbate it and good luck to every actual career criminal. If that’s quote unquote red flag, we’re

Evan Nappen 30:57

And that’s if we are giving them the benefit of the doubt. That they’re actually doing it because they really want safety and are simply misguided or wrong. But I don’t believe that after practicing gun law for over 40 years in the state of New Jersey. I believe it’s an agenda. It’s an agenda of gun rights oppression, and its foundation is simply that of being evil and wanting to go after rights. I don’t give them the benefit of the doubt as to their intention. Their intentions are to destroy our rights. If they could repeal the Second Amendment, they would do it. Look at how draconian every gun law is in New Jersey. Look at how they don’t grandfather magazines. Look at how extreme the penalties are. Look at how they created the gun owner gulag. I mean all this that they do. I just don’t believe it’s for some noble cause. It’s more about their hatred of us, and that really is what fires them up. That’s what the Left is all about, hatred, and they hate us. And this is how their hate is translated into these so-called do-gooder laws. It just is a better explanation from my experience in seeing what the gun laws do to good people, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 32:27

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 32:29

But let me tell you, it doesn’t mean that we can’t have guns, that we can’t enjoy our guns. We can still keep fighting, and we don’t want to give up. We’re making progress, even though New Jersey is the toughest environment. And this is where it’s very important that you have a range to go to, and the range where Teddy and I shoot is WeShoot. WeShoot is in Lakewood. They’re a great indoor range. They have great training and a great pro shop. You can get your certification you need, your CCARE for your carry. It’s really just a great place. WeShoot has some pretty cool stuff they’re offering in June. Here they have a Smith & Wesson Performance Center Bodyguard 2.0 Carry Comp with blue titanium finish. It is a stunning evolution of the Bodyguard platform, a very popular platform. It features all these performance center enhancements with an integrated compensator and that really cool blue titanium finish. So, check it out. I think you really dig that bodyguard. They also have a Sig Sauer P211 Comp GTO. Now, this is Sigs latest high performance masterpiece. This gun blends race gun speed with premium craftsmanship, and it just takes it to another level. They also have Henry Big Boy Steel X. Now, the Henry Big Boy is a modern lever action. It’s a powerhouse with a threaded barrel, and that’s okay. On a lever action, you can have a threaded barrel on your lever action, side loading gate, and rugged steel construction, proving that tradition and innovation can ride side by side, and so check out those. Page – 11 – of 14

Evan Nappen 34:29

By the way, Molly Friedman is joins “The Many Faces of 2A”, and she’s reminding us that the Second Amendment belongs to every American from all walks of life. WeShoot is running some great June promotions beyond those really cool guns. There’s 25% off all heritage firearms, $200 off a family membership, 10% off all new firearms, 15% off all used firearms, and 15% off private lessons. So, this is great. Get down to WeShoot. WeShoot is in Lakewood. Go to weshootusa.com, weshootusa.com, weshootusa.com. Check out their website, beautiful photography. Also, pay a visit there in Lakewood, you’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 35:27

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages, 120 topics, and explains what you need to know about New Jersey gun law. It’s used by well, everybody, that wants to know about New Jersey gun law. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today, so you can hopefully not become a GOFU, because New Jersey loves to make GOFUs. Teddy, what else do you have that you may have discovered in your travels?

Teddy Nappen 36:05

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. One of the things that is, again, we always want to do our opposition research to see what they’re currently the gun rights oppressionists are pushing or crying about. If we go to our good friends at TheTrace.org, they put out an article. “Trump’s Justice Department Is Suing Cities and States to Dismantle Gun Laws. (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/06/trump-doj-civil-rights-2a-local-gun-laws/) So, again, this is where we always have to make.

Evan Nappen 36:41

Make sure our listeners know that The Trace is Bloomberg’s mouthpiece, the anti-gun Bloomberg mouthpiece. So, they’re oppo research for sure. So, what do they say?

Teddy Nappen 36:55

Yeah. So, they’re whining about the fact that they no longer have the strong arm of the United States government to go after our rights. Instead, oh my god, the Civil Rights Division is fighting for the Second Amendment.

Evan Nappen 37:11

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You’re telling me that the Civil Rights Division of the US government is actually fighting for the Constitution?

Teddy Nappen 37:20

I know. Amazing.

Evan Nappen 37:21

When did that happen? Page – 12 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 37:24

Well, apparently, and this was a big shocker, even to The Trace, where they even talk about the article. I love how there’s this. This department was used for fighting civil rights discrimination for black voting and school segregations. It has never been a focus on gun rights, said former attorney of the division, who focused on red lines, which can’t wait to hear all that wonderful things that went on with redlining.

Evan Nappen 37:54

Well, so what? I mean, the Second Amendment is also a constitutional right and a civil right, and they absolutely should be protecting all civil rights. They particularly should not be going against any civil right. So, under Biden and prior administrations, they weaponized these agencies to actually go against Second Amendment rights. And now the agencies are actually doing their job and enforcing Second Amendment rights, and The Trace apparently can’t stand it. Plus, they’ve lost so much money that they used to get from the taxpayer. I mean, this is the effects of an election having consequences, and it’s President Trump and his administration that are making these great changes. You see it taking place here, and they’re upset about it.

Teddy Nappen 38:49

And this is for, like, any every time I hear the black pillars go, like, he’s not doing enough for the Second Amendment, are you kidding me? Having the Civil Rights Division fighting all of these blue on-on strongholds, fighting for our rights, taking down. This is how we lost our rights through salami tactics. This is how it piece by piece, sure enough. And I love this timeline, mind you, of the Spamberg together talk. Actually, mentioned this in the trace arc about Spanberg signing the assault weapon ban. The Assistant Attorney General Dylan posts on X, see you in court. Imagine having an Assistant Attorney General in your Government saying we’re going to fight to defend your rights. When was that ever in any administration?

Evan Nappen 39:41

Take on the state that’s stomping on Second Amendment rights. But, Teddy, you mentioned the black pillars. Just so our listeners know, what does that term mean? The black pillars. It’s not about race at all. What does that term mean?

Teddy Nappen 39:56

They’re the horseshoe right. They’re the ones arguing that Donald Trump hasn’t done enough. He hasn’t met any of his promises. And look, no one is perfect. No one can. He is not a king. He can’t just snap his fingers and say, all right, we’re going to send in all the National Guard and point the guns at all the governors and force them to sign bills recognizing the Second Amendment. Like that’s not how that works. It’s about fighting in the system. Going after these policies state by state through the courts, because believe me, they’ve had all their politically appointed judges. I mean, they just did an Executive Order. He did an Executive Order stopping the massive funding to the H1b allowing them to get houses. A judge stopped that through a judge blocking, blocking. Page – 13 – of 14

Evan Nappen 40:49

The activist judges are always causing him problems, and he has to go to higher levels to overturn. We see it every time. They are the appointees, normally from the prior administrations, and this is where Trump’s breaking the mold of the old government ways. And these judges can’t believe that somebody would actually have the balls to do that, and yet he does. Hey Teddy, I want to mention about this week’s GOFU. It’s very important. As you know, GOFUs are Gun Owner Fuck Ups, and we want to make sure that our listeners learn these expensive lessons for free that others have learned. I’m going to have you tell us what you think is a good GOFU for this week for us to discuss.

Teddy Nappen 41:48

So, this is something that I’ve been seeing with all the primaries coming up. I always like to imagine all the Democrat candidates just get handed the talking points, like it’s a sheet, like, okay. What gun control thing are we pushing for? For some reason, they’ve all dragged out the “safe storage” as the next big dog whistle of an issue that they’re trying to make relevant. Safe storage, we need to push for it. It was Tallarico, you know, the vegan. Whatever. This guy is are moron, but he pushes for “safe storage” laws requiring safe storage of firearms to keep everyone safe.

Evan Nappen 42:30

Now, under Heller, you’re not required to lock up your safety. Heller addressed that in the original decision, but New Jersey does have a law that says you cannot allow a minor to access a loaded firearm. So, when it comes to minors accessing your guns, New Jersey also makes transfer laws, so that you can’t transfer temporarily a firearm, even your spouse or family member, unless you’re at the range or while hunting. There are issues with transfers, and there are issues that have to do with storage. But what they’re looking to do here is create what is mandatory storage requirements, so that, you know, while someone’s breaking into your home, you just got to ask the hot home invader, you know, that’s doing a hot robbery. Just give me a second, so I can get my gun out of the safe, okay? I’ll be right with you while they’re going to rape and kill your family. So, this is a problem.

Evan Nappen 43:42

But the GOFU component, particularly in New Jersey, is making sure that you don’t have unauthorized parties access your firearm. You never let a minor access a loaded firearm unless it’s where you’re within an exemption. Where they’re under your direct supervision, but you know, just leaving it at home unlocked, where a minor can access it, you’ve got criminal potential problems there. And then on storage of your firearm, under the Carry Killer law, you’ve got to make sure that if you’re going to use that exemption, that your gun is unloaded and locked. You know, secured in that manner. Otherwise, you can get charged for improper storage of your firearm in violation of the Carry Killer law and sensitive places.

Evan Nappen 44:43

These are the areas where storage in New Jersey takes on a legal component, where you can end up with a GOFU. But what you’re talking about is also very important, because it’s another foot in the door by the antis to try to abuse the storage laws to disenfranchise and take away gun rights. New Jersey has done that to a certain degree here in the Carry Killer law, and some of the other laws that they put forward about having to secure firearms. It’s designed to create disenfranchisement of Second Page – 14 – of 14

Amendment rights, arrests, and even at minimum taking away gun licenses over the use of these rules that they again put forward in the name of public safety and do it even contrary at times to the decision in Heller.

Evan Nappen 45:48

Hey, this is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen, reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 45:59

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E294_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 293-Guest Firearms Attorney Greg MillerAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPodcast Transcript UnavailableDownloadable PDF TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 292- Your Gun is in the MailAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 16

Gun Lawyer — Episode 292 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun Lawyer, Second Amendment, Marxism, useful idiots, US Postal Service, handgun shipping, NFA silencers, firearm regulations, logical fallacies, self-defense, gun scams, dog safety, firearm training, New Jersey gun law, gun rights.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:17

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:19

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:21

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy Bear, what’s going on, man?

Teddy Nappen 00:28

Well, I can’t believe you outed my middle name. Just kidding. It’s something where I don’t know this. Dad, do you remember growing up, and you saw, like, did you ever listen to Rage Against the Machine?

Evan Nappen 00:42

Yeah, I actually will admit to that.

Teddy Nappen 00:45

Yeah, do you remember that shirt where it literally has the picture of Che Guevara?

Evan Nappen 00:50

Yeah. Well, I have one of those shirts, except my Che Guevara shirt has him wearing Mickey Mouse ears. So, I call him Mickey Che, and I thought Mickey Che was just hilarious.

Teddy Nappen 01:02

Yeah, I think it’s funnier because of what if I was.. I just learned like more about who this individual was.

Evan Nappen 01:11

Che Guevara? Page – 2 – of 16 Page – 3 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 01:14

I love how the Left tote him as their revolutionary hero. This guy put gays and Catholics in concentration camps. He tried to purify the Spanish race. And in details describing again, like trying to talk about black people, trying to remove them from society. He personally executed 100 people.

Evan Nappen 01:38

He’s actually completely aligned with the progressive Left, if you really think about it.

Teddy Nappen 01:43

True.

Evan Nappen 01:44

I mean, the reality of what the Left does, you know. They are the kings of hypocrites. They are masters of double think. They have one goal and that is to destroy America. I mean, that’s their entire agenda. If you think about everything, they’re for, and every single item they are for harms our country in some way. Everything is harmful, and this is what they’re all about.

Teddy Nappen 02:23

I think there is a good, I think the best way to think of it, and Crowder from Louder with Crowder gives the best line. They are Marxist because you see them take the most insane stances, like queers for Palestine. They’re for funding the war in Ukraine, but not for dealing with Iran. They take these crazy stances, which just looking at it, just from like it would make no sense, except from the eyes of a Marxist. Where in Marxism, in go right to the book, “The Communist Manifesto”, you have to define your enemy, oppressor and oppressee. No matter the individual, no matter the group, no matter the stance you take. You could be the most hateful group against gays, but if you are the oppressed, if you are the underdog, you are the good guy in their ideology. That is how screwed up it is, and they will take whatever political stance to achieve power for the sake of Marxism.

Evan Nappen 03:18

Yeah, they are the useful idiots for the Marxists, for those that want to destroy America. They’re the useful idiots. And by the way, the only redeeming factor at all to their entire agenda of Marxism is that if they ever were to succeed, they’re the first ones that will get killed. They’re the ones that the Marxists will then kill when they don’t need them anymore, and that is exactly the playbook of the Marxist takeovers.

Teddy Nappen 03:54

Cut to Iran with the students, which are all Islamo communists who took over. By the way, when the Iranian regime took over, guess who they executed first? The communists.

Evan Nappen 04:05

Well, it’s the playbook every time. They’re just useful idiots until they’re no longer useful, and then they’re dead idiots. Page – 4 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 04:16

And then what is it, the old phrase. You can vote your way into communism, but you have to shoot your way out.

Evan Nappen 04:21

That’s it. That’s it. So, luckily, we are exposing, you know, the truth is out there, and this political battle for the future of our country is clear and normal America gets it. I really believe they do. And the extremists on the Left, of course, are the worst when it comes to our Second Amendment rights. They’re not going to be in a general sense successful. Now they’re able to have pockets where you see their policies destroy cities, and you can watch the destruction of these cities taking place under their policies. But that’s just examples being set to the rest of America, what we never want to happen broadly in the country.

Teddy Nappen 05:26

Yeah, and speaking of Marxism, as I always, again, we always have to check on the Left of what they’re currently whining and crying about. So,

Evan Nappen 05:37

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 05:38

Our favorite, our favorite fans at The Trace. We check out their latest article. “People might soon be able to ship handguns through the mail.” (https://www.thetrace.org/2026/05/usps-handgun-mailing-ban-shipping-rule/) That was the article.

Evan Nappen 05:38

Oh my G-d! Everyone clutch your pearls.

Teddy Nappen 05:40

Oh my G-d. Jennifer Mascia writes this whole article where the U.S. Postal Service is set to lift a century-old ban, and experts warn of the consequences. I love the term “experts”.

Evan Nappen 06:13

Experts warn the consequences. Right now you can ship via FedEx. You can ship UPS. Oh, but somehow if we allow shipping via the U.S. Postal Service, oh, well, now it’s a threat to our safety, our country, everything. You know, it’s just, the sky is falling because of that.

Teddy Nappen 06:38

Yeah, and I love how they’re saying, the rule would allow handguns to be shipped through the mail, bypassing a longstanding law prohibiting such practice.

Evan Nappen 06:51

Well, you know, I guess they’re not aware that currently you can buy NFA silencers by having them shipped to your door. Silencers are allowed to be sold in this manner, as long as it’s a dealer in the Page – 5 – of 16

state that is doing the shipping. Now, this is the model that is so interesting with Silencer Central, for example. You can buy a NFA silencer online at Silencer Central. (https://www.silencercentral.com/) You can do your NFA forms. They have a great interface where you do the interface. It interfaces you to e-forms, the federal government’s forms for NFA. There’s no tax on suppressors anymore because of the Big Beautiful Bill. Once you get the approval, then they ship from Silencer Central, which I believe is in South Dakota. I believe that is where their headquarters are. That is then sent to their local dealer network that they have already set up, and that’s who ships the suppressor direct to your door. Now, of course, if you live in the DPRNJ, you cannot buy a suppressor because the state law bans them. But in well over 40 some states that respect the Second Amendment, you’re able to do this.

Evan Nappen 08:38

So, this model that they have, which is computerized and set up well, is the groundwork now being laid in the federal government for this to apply to guns. And by opening up the postal service to allow the shipping of handguns, it will allow yet another source for shipping of guns via the post office. And the ATF 34 new regs that they’re proposing is to have computerized the 4473 forms just like the NFA forms are computerized. So, you’ll have e-forms that you can do for that. I’m sure companies will set up an interface in the same way they have an interface set up to ease the process for suppressors. And then even if, for example, Silencer Central were to use their existing network, you could buy the gun of your choice online, and then it will be sent through their network. It will be shipped directly to your door. With the removal of the ban on shipping handguns in the post office, it could even come via the U.S. Post Office right to your door.

Evan Nappen 09:54

So, we’re modernizing the business trade for firearms and making it so that we’re getting back to our pre ’68, pre 1968, ability to have mail order guns, and this is great. Especially for folks that have limited ability to get to a dealer. You know, not everybody lives close to an FFL, but everybody gets their mail delivered in some way. So, this will make the availability of firearms that much more easier for individuals to acquire guns. Of course, that’s what those that are the oppressors of our gun rights don’t want to do. They want everything they can come up with that can somehow be a burden on the exercise of our rights to exist. So, they fight everything and anything that in any way makes it easier.

Teddy Nappen 11:04

This is even funnier because you could still ship your AR-15.

Evan Nappen 11:10

Well, right, long arms are fine, even by the mail and by in-state dealers already. And, you know, although the law in 1927 about concealable weapons can’t be shipped, you know, concealable, they’d be mainly handguns, sawed off shotguns, etc. Concealable weapons. Long arms still could be, and it wasn’t until the ’68 Gun Control Act that the dealer network essentially got established and requirements for having to have the in-state dealer only for handgun transfers. So, you cannot buy a handgun except in a state where you’re a resident. You can buy a long arm in a state where you’re not a resident, as long as that dealer obeys the law of the home state and the resident state. So, as long as both jurisdictions’ laws are followed, long arm sales can occur right over the counter or at a gun show, etc. but not with handguns. This will dramatically change that for the better. We’ll be able to ship Page – 6 – of 16

handguns, and it’ll help establish these dealer networks to almost make irrelevant the restriction over having to have an in-state dealer on the transfer when it can easily just be shipped. So, that will be a great thing. Another improvement, thanks to President Trump and his administration on addressing the trade, the business model and trade in firearms.

Teddy Nappen 13:22

It always makes me laugh from reading this article. The expert that they get, Robert Spitzer.

Evan Nappen 13:23

Yeah, he’s a known quantity.

Teddy Nappen 13:28

He’s written the Politics of Gun Control, and he writes this entire book making the claim that this is the time to push for gun control.

Evan Nappen 13:46

Oh yeah, now.

Teddy Nappen 13:48

He wrote an entire book trying to make the argument that the NRA is weak, and, and, and we’ve had such great strides in the anti-gun movement that we need to push for, and it’s yeah.

Evan Nappen 14:04

Well, the NRA has been weakened due to all the internal strife, that is true. But the gun rights movement is not just the NRA. The NRA is important. The NRA does good work. The NRA has unfortunately had its internal problems that they’re finally getting beyond. However, we have the GOA (Gun Owners of America) out there doing great things. We have Firearm Policy Coalition, FPC. They’re doing great work litigating and such. We have Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, and the Second Amendment Foundation. We have many other groups that are taking up the fight and many, many state groups that are also engaging. So, simply saying this is great because the NRA has been weakened hardly paints the picture.

Evan Nappen 15:18

Then, of course, we have the most important aspect of why this is absolutely probably the worst time ever, and that has to do with President Trump. His dedication to the Second Amendment, and his administration with the appointment of the new ATF director, who is moving on President Trump’s Executive Order to look at all the regulations and gun laws, and to change the way America, the federal government itself, does business. To the degree of cutting the funding that was going to the gun rights oppressive groups, which they’re still. Talk about weakened. What’s really been weakened is the other side over the cutting of the monies to them that was taxpayer dollars. Page – 7 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 16:13

The other factor is, Dad, that they blew their entire control in COVID, where people were like, “Oh man, I’m in my home, I need to defend it”. I need to get a firearm. And currently, right now, all the Leftists are buying guns in droves, and they’re getting denied. Like, why can’t I own a firearm?

Evan Nappen 16:37

They’re buying guns in droves? Where did they get these cars from the 1930s to go by guns with?

Teddy Nappen 16:44

Nice. But it’s literally the most like weakest issue you could ever push for. Now, they still make, they still get their talking heads and all the others out there, but the vast majority at this point, like, are pro, and you can have your spurts of mass shootings, but it always comes back to, oh, who was the shooter? Oh, it was a transgender woman who thinks he was a man or some other mentally deranged individual. Oh, we can’t talk about that shooting. And it gets just stomped over and over and over again. It’s ridiculous. Just going back to the article here, the whole argument from Spitzer.

Evan Nappen 17:26

Well, mental health is an issue.

Teddy Nappen 17:28

Yeah. This college professor makes a logical fallacy argument against the rule change. He says handguns can be transported legally across state lines now, and it would be, and quite frankly, you could just drive your car and use your car to transport. Why would you need to mail anything?

Evan Nappen 17:49

First of all, you can’t do that very thing. You cannot cross state lines as a non-resident and buy a handgun in another state. You have to be a resident of the state to purchase a handgun. Now, you can be, arguably, a dual resident if you reside in the other state at the time, either on the weekends or the summer months. You have property and you’re residing there. Then dual residency recognition is there. But if you’re not, if you’re just on vacation, or if you think you can just leave your resident state, go to another state, and buy a handgun legally, you can’t. So, that’s not legally true.

Teddy Nappen 18:35

I think he was also referring to transporting, because the idea was. The other thing they were making the point of the argument was like you can ship your gun to yourself as well. One of the things that they were talking about, as one of the points for this. But here’s the key to the, what he’s making, he made a logical fallacy. It’s called a false dilemma or appeal to the alternative, where you give two choices where one exists. Therefore by that makes the other one is may makes false or true. Even though just because that exists, just because you are transporting a firearm, that doesn’t mean this negates the ability where you shouldn’t be able to mail. It’s a logical fallacy, and this is someone who’s supposed to be this politically smart.

Evan Nappen 19:24

Similar to the Mott and Bailey. Similar. Page – 8 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 19:26

Yeah. Well, that’s why. Well, that’s the premise of most logical fallacies. You equate to something to make your argument seem reasonable when it’s not true. And this is why logical fallacies exist. You’re using them in debates. But here the Left can only use logical fallacies when making their arguments, because they have to appeal to emotion.

Evan Nappen 19:47

Right! Speaking of logical fallacy, once you get into an argument with them and you’re destroying them, then, of course, their final, their last resort is, of course, an ad hominem attack.

Teddy Nappen 19:58

Well, that goes back to. I Learned.

Evan Nappen 20:00

Right.

Teddy Nappen 20:01

I learned this term, just going to it. I think it’s called Godwin’s Law, where it’s the premise where basically everyone would keep equating to a political argument where someone would just say, oh yeah, well, that’s Hitler talk, or say someone is like being a Nazi or being like a fascist. Godwin’s Law is, if that get.

Evan Nappen 20:23

Wait, and throw in pedo, somehow

Teddy Nappen 20:25

pedophile,

Evan Nappen 20:26

to your pedophile,

Teddy Nappen 20:27

pedophile,

Evan Nappen 20:28

I don’t,

Teddy Nappen 20:29

Yeah. So, actually engaging with the subject, when you throw in that term, you have therefore won the argument, because they’ve now just resorted to the tactic of the idea. If the conversation eventually leads to Hitler, you’ve won the debate because they were right to that tactic. And I love he did this, though, because he was Left wing, where he was trying to make the argument about trying to be pro gun control, where you’re equating this to fascist, and then he tried to carve out exceptions. Well, if it Page – 9 – of 16

actually is showing real signs of fascism, then it’s okay. But it’s just the level, like, really? Yeah, you carve out. Rules for thee, not for me, obviously, so.

Evan Nappen 21:13

It also goes back to their double think, and all that. I mean, it’s so Orwellian, man. The Left just lives the Orwellian dream here, man, with what they do. Every day we are fascinated by their shenanigans. It’s nuts. So, that is fascinating. Hopefully, as we move ahead here, we’re seeing all kinds of dramatic pro Second Amendment rights changes. Teddy, you said you had something else you wanted to share. I was wondering what that was.

Teddy Nappen 21:57

This was probably from what is a lot of people in talking about is the Chud The Builder story, where he was a.

Evan Nappen 22:07

Chud? He’s a chud?

Teddy Nappen 22:09

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 22:10

A chud is a stupid, ugly person, I think, right?

Teddy Nappen 22:15

A self-given name, so, whatever.

Evan Nappen 22:18

So, he’s calling himself a Chud?

Teddy Nappen 22:20

Yes, that was his like tagline, and.

Evan Nappen 22:23

Wow. He doesn’t have high self-esteem, if you’re calling yourself a Chud.

Teddy Nappen 22:29

Yeah, there’s like, there’s all different, there’s so much stuff out there on the internet.

Evan Nappen 22:34

So, what did Mr. Chud do?

Teddy Nappen 22:37

Yeah, so he was a streamer. He would go around to different people. He’s a rage baiter, where he tried to say, like, you know, he’d say the N word to, like, go up to black people. Page – 10 – of 16

(https://www.soapcentral.com/entertainment/joshua-fox-victim-chud-the-builder-comes-scrutiny-alleged-past-crimes-emerge)

Evan Nappen 22:48

A rage baiter?

Teddy Nappen 22:49

Yeah, where he tries to get a rise out of people, which.

Evan Nappen 22:51

Wait a minute. I understand he’s very, very skilled at that. As a matter of fact, don’t they consider him a master at that?

Teddy Nappen 22:59

I would say so.

Evan Nappen 23:00

Cause that would make him a masturbator.

Teddy Nappen 23:03

Yep, he certainly is.

Teddy Nappen 23:04

Okay. But what did this guy do?

Teddy Nappen 23:07

Well, he went over, and he was, and again, we don’t have all the facts yet on this. It’s still coming out. But the basic summary is that he was saying the N word, and you know, making all the different jokes and going up to people. And then one guy came over and punched him, attacked him over that. Then he drew his gun on him and fired. There was a scuffle where he ended up shooting himself, along with the attacker.

Evan Nappen 23:37

Holy cow. Well, okay, there’s a lot to unpack there, and we don’t have all the facts. But basically fighting words. So, if he’s approaching somebody and using what we might even generously call fighting words, or words to trigger, how’s that? This person. That still is not generally a basis where you can use force. So, the person who he may be offending is not necessarily justified in using force. But if he raised the stakes, the victim of this guy’s race baiting, raised the stakes to a physical assault, but no weapon, that still doesn’t rise necessarily to the Chud using deadly force. But, again, we don’t know all the facts. Fighting words themselves are not normally a good justification for use of force either way. And then if his response was disproportionate to what occurred, and plus he’s also, Chud there, is also treading in the bad area of “don’t be the instigator”. Don’t be the troublemaker. Don’t be the guy who started it. And that already is a strike against him for being that guy. So, this sounds like not a really smart person doing smart things. Page – 11 – of 16

Teddy Nappen 25:17

Yeah, and I will say, just from the quote, they’re also saying, again, unconfirmed, that the guy, the “victim” was stalking him because he was streaming and wanted to go there. So, that could be a factor because this individual was whatever.

Evan Nappen 25:34

Maybe he was a stalker? I don’t know.

Teddy Nappen 25:36

Yeah, we don’t have all the facts.

Evan Nappen 25:38

You see, when dealing with self-defense, it becomes very fact-specific. It really does. Those facts come together, and the reasonableness of your actions – were you reasonably in fear? Was it a reasonable fear? Was it proportionate and reasonable, etc.? All that is what the jury is going to have to believe and understand and agree with. So, you better be able to convince 12 people, who aren’t smart enough to avoid jury duty, that you were extremely reasonable in what you did.

Teddy Nappen 26:24

Under criminal procedure, though, would this be allowed to come out in the court? Where the “victim”, Joshua Fox, had a large rap sheet. He tried to set his house on fire with an aerosol can and a lighter. And when his wife tried to try to stop him, he tried to stab her with a screwdriver.

Evan Nappen 26:41

It’s going to come down to a lot of the rules on what’s admissible, evidentiary. What can be demonstrated under what’s called “prior acts”. These are all important legal issues that the court will have to determine.

Teddy Nappen 26:57

Multiple aggravated assaults, by the way. You know, DUIs.

Evan Nappen 27:03

And maybe to what degree is there an awareness of the parties, of the background of the person. But these are all going to be things that will be in consideration.

Teddy Nappen 27:15

It also kind of upsets me, though, Dad, is reverse the races, and what happens?

Evan Nappen 27:21

Well, we all know what happens in our society, don’t we?

Teddy Nappen 27:26

Yeah, and that’s Page – 12 – of 16

Evan Nappen 27:28

It’s apparently a one-way street. Just ask that woman who was.

Teddy Nappen 27:36

Arena.

Evan Nappen 27:37

Yeah, that was her.

Teddy Nappen 27:38

You had a guy who was released nine times, gets on a subway station, stabs her, and then says to the camera, I got that whitey. I got that whitey. It’s disgusting. As they’re taking down the mural of her, by the way, because we don’t want to show offense. But why is it that it’s conditioned to say one word, how is that justified to be okay? We’re gonna beat the crap out of you, and also probably kill you over that word. That is the disgusting part. This goes beyond Chud The Builder. This goes to an issue. What was that documentary, the N word? Like, it broke down the utter insanity that has been created around that word to the point right now.

Evan Nappen 28:24

It’s done on purpose, and you’re seeing, though, the demise in a way of that entire reverse discrimination. The entire thing that’s been placed on us as a society. It’s being rejected because the other side took it too far. I mean, once you start saying that math is racist, you’re losing people that are otherwise very supportive.

Teddy Nappen 28:55

Also working out of.

Evan Nappen 28:56

The original cause of having what Dr. King put out there, as it’s about your character, right? The content of your character, not the color of your skin. And that’s something that just about every normal American can embrace. We take each person as an individual, and we look at who they are in their character. When you start creating these groups that you either want to attack or groups that you just only want to help to the detriment of another group, then you’re going into what Americans viscerally know is racist, whichever way you’re going with it. It becomes racist, because racism really boils down to distinguishing based on race. You’re distinguishing based on race, and how that distinguishing takes place is where you can see unfairness coming from both sides. Americans are generally fair people. We don’t want unfairness. We want equal opportunity, but not equity. There’s a difference, not equity.

Teddy Nappen 30:14

Yeah, that’s the problem. Page – 13 – of 16

Evan Nappen 30:15

Equality is something we can all believe in, because it’s fundamental to our existence. All men are created equal. We can all accept that we’re all created equal, and then we all should have equal opportunity. But once that equal is no longer equal, then people sense the unfairness and the discrimination, whichever way that discrimination is cutting, and that’s what you see.

Evan Nappen 30:45

Hey, Teddy, let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot, the place you and I love to go. We love to shoot there. It is a great range in Lakewood, New Jersey, conveniently located right off the Parkway. They have top deals, great specials all the time. They have a fantastic range, a state-of-the-art range, and the training there is second to none. You can get your certification for getting your New Jersey carry. Hey, you and I both got ours, and so did Brother Lou. He got his there, too. Lots and lots of folks we know have successfully gotten their training and certifications from WeShoot. WeShoot has a great website. You should really check it out. Go to weshootusa.com. Please go to WeShoot. You will love it. You’ll be glad you did. It is one of our favorite places, and you know ranges are important to support because they are a resource, a limited resource in the DPRNJ. WeShoot is first rate. So, check out weshootusa.com. Pay them a visit, and join as a member. Take advantage of this great resource for the exercise of your Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 32:21

Let me also shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of Jersey gun law. It will help guide you through the insane matrix of New Jersey gun laws so that you don’t become a GOFU. That is my mission in life, to educate and help our brothers and sisters that want to be and remain law-abiding gun owners, even in tough environments, such as the DPRNJ. That’s why the book’s there. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today. EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 33:03

Teddy, I want to talk about a double header GOFU. We’re going to do two today. We’re going to do two.

Teddy Nappen 33:14

A binary GOFU?

Evan Nappen 33:16

Well, actually, it’s going to be two separate GOFUs. One is a bona fide GOFU that you need to know about, and the other, they’re both bona fide GOFUs, but one we’re gonna call a DOGFU, and you’ll see why. We’ll save the DOGFU for a little later. Let me tell you about this actual GOFU. So, this is an individual who is new to guns. Now, I think many of my listeners are experienced with firearms, but you may be new to guns, which is fine. I welcome you on board, and as a listener. Everybody’s got to start at some point, where you learn, and your best way is to go to a dealer. I would highly recommend WeShoot for a first timer. They will equip you, train you, and you’ll learn right from the start the right way to do things. Page – 14 – of 16

Evan Nappen 34:19

But in this case, this individual didn’t know much about guns. He actually purchased a handgun via Facebook. Now, first of all, I didn’t even think Facebook allows the sale of firearms, but somehow, it must have come up on Marketplace or something. He thought this was a good deal. It was a Gen 5 Glock 20 with a number of magazines and a couple hundred rounds. It’s supposedly a private seller, and all this, and you know, it would still be going through, arguably, a dealer. It’s not unlawful to buy online, like if you go through Gun Broker or other sources. But it has to go dealer to dealer, and you need the permits. You have to do all that. This person, being new to this, wasn’t trying to avoid that. In fact, he anticipated they would be doing that, but thought, here’s a great way to get a gun. He paid for this gun but did not receive it. Instead, as I discover the story, I find out that the person tells me that the gun was shipped, the gun was shipped to a freight company.

Evan Nappen 35:45

Now, folks, we’re talking today about shipping, about U.S. mail, about all that. If a gun is being sent, a gun is not sent via a freight company. I mean, that would be highly unusual. A gun normally gets sent UPS, FedEx, you know, the standard carriers like that, and it gets sent to the dealer. Well, this person is told by the person who they already paid for this Glock, which was, you know, $500, so that’s a great deal. It’s a phenomenal deal for Gen 5 Glock 20, right? So, immediately you need to wonder, why is it such a good deal? Oh, well, the freight company has the gun, but the freight company can’t deliver it unless you pay certain monies. Then they milk this person along to keep paying monies and claiming certain paperwork and all kinds of things have to be done before it goes to a dealer. Well, that’s ridiculous. It’s the dealer who’s going to do the paperwork. They just are the carrier, if they are even for real. Of course, here it isn’t.

Evan Nappen 36:52

So, I asked, how much money have you paid to this freight company to sort this out? Have they been telling you? Two thousand dollars to the freight company already. And now they want to refund. Oh, they’ll gladly refund. But before they send the refund, he has to pay more money, like another $500 right? Okay, how was this paid for? Oh, Bitcoin, of course. Do you have an address for this company? No, it was just a phone number and communication over WhatsApp. Oh geez. I mean every flag you can imagine. And look, I’m not here to be mean. I’m not here to mock anybody. These people are con artists. They’re out there. The scammers are out there. There’s a reason they’re called con men, because they’re known as confidence men. They gain your confidence, and you have to recognize this.

Evan Nappen 37:53

The GOFU is falling for the scam. The bottom line is, you know, don’t send them another penny. Report the theft, and you know it’s highly unlikely you’re ever going to recover a dime of what you paid. But the lesson needs to be learned. If you’re going to buy a gun, particularly as a new gun owner, go to your local dealer. Go to a dealer, go to a legitimate brick and mortar dealer in your state, and have them show you the ropes. It’s a great advantage to have a dealer there that not only can sell you a gun, not only do all the paperwork, not only be known to be legitimate, but also they can train you. They can help you pick the right gun. They can help you train. I mean, I’m not even sure whether a newbie should be starting with a Glock 20 in 10 millimeter. Yeah, it depends on the person and their skill. Maybe they had some prior firearm, I don’t know. But that’s not exactly. It’s a great gun. I love the Glock 20. But Page – 15 – of 16

that’s not necessarily the best gun for a newbie to be starting with, not necessarily. So, this is the kind of things, these are the factors that a dealer will be able to advise and help you. They’ll make sure everything’s done right and legitimately, and you have that dealer as a resource. So, this is important. Don’t be a GOFU, you know, the Gun Owner Fuck Up in that regard. Don’t get scammed. Be very careful with anything online. If you’re going to buy online, there’s protocols you need to follow, you know. If it’s through, like, Gun Broker, where it’s a legitimate site, then things have to go through dealers. They have to be vetted. Look at the feedback. You know, ask for help with others that have done these type of purchases. If you’re new to this, I wouldn’t advise jumping in to online purchases, not at this stage. Now, eventually, with what we talked about at the beginning of the show, it may be streamlined with major companies, and then you’ll be fine and safe. But that is definitely something you want to avoid.

Evan Nappen 37:53

So, that is the first GOFU, but now let’s talk about the second GOFU, which is the DOGFU. Teddy, you have the background on the DOGFU. Tell us about the DOGFU.

Teddy Nappen 38:43

So, just kind of going into it a little more, I think personally.

Evan Nappen 39:36

This occurred in a person who was in a truck, right? They had their shotgun in a truck, and I believe they were parked in front of either a gas station or convenience store or something.

Teddy Nappen 39:43

Yeah, and he left the gun loaded in his truck, and of course the dog.

Evan Nappen 39:54

Now, this is farm country. I think it was out in Nebraska. I mean, you still shouldn’t have your loaded gun necessarily in your car. I don’t know whether that was lawful or not in Nebraska, maybe it was.

Teddy Nappen 41:12

Well, the dog saw a squirrel running, and so he reached for the gun.

Evan Nappen 41:20

Well, unfortunately, when it comes to dogs and guns, any pet and a gun, if you leave your gun loaded, safety, you know, all gun loaded never should ever load, even with the safety on. You know, dogs jump around, man. And all his paw had to do, which apparently happened, is get between the trigger guard and the trigger, and bang, that gun discharged. It actually hit a bystander, I believe, and caused immense problems. So, the take away.

Teddy Nappen 41:52

I think the bystander was reported as a postman, by the way. Just kidding. Page – 16 – of 16

Evan Nappen 41:57

No, I don’t think so. But the thing that’s important here is that this is not that uncommon. It’s not regularly occurring. But dogs and other animals inadvertently discharging a firearm is not unheard of. And hunters, particularly those that hunt with dogs, need to be very careful. There are a number, any number of stories of hunters that put their loaded gun down, and the dog accidentally discharges the gun. You know, you might be looking to safely climb over a fence or an obstacle, you need to unload your gun before doing it. And instead of leaning it up on the fence, loaded, and then think you’re going to reach over and grab it, and a dog jumps up on it, and next thing you know, boom. You’re getting shot, or somebody else is, and that gun’s discharging. It can happen in a household, you know, leaving your loaded handgun on a table or on a chair, and a dog or other animal can jump up and cause a discharge. So, be conscientious about your loaded gun. Even if nobody else is home, it’s just you and another living creature, this type of DOGFU can occur. So, beware.

Evan Nappen 43:27

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 43:38

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E292_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 291-Drop Your Socks and Grab Your GlocksAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode TranscriptPage – 1 – of 14

Gun Lawyer — Episode 291 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Gun rights, Second Amendment, gerrymandering, New Jersey, federal law, AK-47, AR-15, gun laws, Supreme Court, carry permit, gun dealers, political power, racial discrimination, gun ownership, legal battles.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 1, Teddy Nappen, Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Speaker 1 00:11

Lawyer,

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:20

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:22

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what’s on your mind today?

Teddy Nappen 00:27

Well, I never realized the guy that wrote the Zombie Survival Guide, Max Brooks, was related to Mel Brooks. I thought it was a common name.

Evan Nappen 00:38

What? How is he related to Mel Brooks?

Teddy Nappen 00:40

It’s his son, so.

Evan Nappen 00:42

Oh, my G-d! Is he gonna make a movie, you know, Young Zombie or something?

Teddy Nappen 00:44

Yeah, no, Young Zombie.

Evan Nappen 00:46

Or a zombie movie with lots of farts? Page – 2 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 00:52

No.

Evan Nappen 00:53

Blazing Zombies, Blazing Zombies.

Teddy Nappen 00:55

Yeah! Blazing Zombies, that’s it, kind of like what was it, Abraham Lincoln and the Vampire Abraham Lincoln.

Evan Nappen 01:02

Right. I think Blazing Zombies would probably be very popular.

Teddy Nappen 01:06

Yeah, I know, right. Let’s see them try to reboot Blazing Saddles. Good luck with that.

Evan Nappen 01:12

Well, they could do Blazing. Yeah, but if they did Blazing Zombies, they would never be able to say certain words that they used in Blazing Saddles.

Teddy Nappen 01:23

Yeah, like calling the zombies a bunch of leg draggers.

Evan Nappen 01:26

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Actually, we’re kind of dealing with a zombie apocalypse with the Democrat party lately. I think they are a bunch of, you know. They don’t have brains. They just try to eat brains.

Teddy Nappen 01:48

Yeah. And unfortunately, they keep coming up with new ideas to screw us out of our rights.

Evan Nappen 01:55

Right! That’s it. That’s what they do. They send the horde out to eat our rights. They do the horde, and they just try to get everybody on board to sacrifice for their pure unadulterated political power. Like trying to get college athletes to boycott their entire athletic career, over, for example, they’re flipping out over the ending of racial gerrymandering. I mean, it’s kind of unbelievable when you watch them talk about this being, you know, Jim Crow II, when all that is being done is ending racial discrimination, with setting up voting districts. Somehow ending racial discrimination is Jim Crow. Only a Democrat with zombie brains could ever make that argument with a straight face.

Teddy Nappen 02:59

Well, it’s also very funny because, if you cut to all of New England, where the breakdown is roughly like 40 to 50% Republican, and there’s no representation for that. And so, they, and it’s all the states are heavily, heavily gerrymandered, like zero representation for Republicans, but oh, that’s fine. It’s only Page – 3 – of 14

when the Republicans say, you know what? You’ve established the rules of engagement, and we will oblige. That’s just how the game is played.

Evan Nappen 03:29

Now, you would think that the Democrats would have expert knowledge on Jim Crow, because they’re the ones that started it. The original Jim Crow laws were done by Democrats after the Civil War. And, of course, who opposed the Civil Rights Act? The Democrats. They were the originals. And then for them to get up now and claim how much they want to oppose what they are perceiving as Jim Crow laws are kind of rich. And, of course, it isn’t. It is the actual elimination of the racial discrimination that is in place by way of their gerrymandering, and this is very important to our gun rights, Teddy. Very important to our gun rights. As voting is turned around, so that it actually reflects the voters, as opposed to these bizarre jurisdictions engineered for Democrats just to maintain power, we will see more and more advances in the fight for our gun rights. It is the other side there that constantly is trying to take away our Second Amendment rights.

Teddy Nappen 04:52

What always makes me laugh, though, is they always try to say the party switched. They always make that argument. By the way, it’s a completely disproven argument. Like, okay, what time period? Was it under Senator (Robert) Byrd, who was a, what was it? The Grand Wizard?

Evan Nappen 05:07

The Grand Wizard of the KKK.

Teddy Nappen 05:10

Which, by the way, he was a mentor to Joe Biden throughout his political career. But no one talks about that. Or when Joe Biden, what did Joe Biden say on the stage?

Evan Nappen 05:21

Oh, don’t even.

Teddy Nappen 05:21

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Evan Nappen 05:25

party,

Evan Nappen 05:25

The party hasn’t switched. They’re just trying to build a bigger fence with a plantation. They are the ones trying to run a plantation, and that’s what gerrymandering, prior to this Calais Supreme Court case, that’s what it was really about. How does the Democrat maintain their plantations of voter districts, to maintain their power? Page – 4 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 05:50

Yeah, exactly. They put up the creation that Johnson, what was it? We’re going to get these guys voting Democrat for the rest of their lives. They created the giant welfare state.

Evan Nappen 06:01

Yeah. And by the way, he didn’t even call them “these guys”.

Teddy Nappen 06:05

I know I was trying to, I was paraphrasing.

Evan Nappen 06:11

Describing them. Yeah, just their hypocrisy definitely knows no bounds, and this time period now is somewhat encouraging, because a lot of everything that they’ve built on, including taking our gun rights, it’s collapsing all around them. It’s very encouraging to see that. You just saw the primaries go here. Trump with what 34 zero or whatever on his picks, and that helps get us further with the expansion of our Second Amendment rights. This is all a part. Because part of MAGA is the rebirth of the power of the Second Amendment, that is a part of MAGA, guys. You’ve got to know that, and you can see it. We are now in a completely different world than in the Biden era. I mean, Biden was essentially engaging in a clamp down, a clamp down on our rights in every way that he could abuse federal power to do so. And we’re seeing incredible changes in the other direction now.

Teddy Nappen 07:29

I’ll give you the highlight of that. We dealt with this, where it was weaponization. They were going after dealers for the most minuscule things with a zero tolerance. And now that’s been eliminated, and it has been helping. Of course, New Jersey picks up the mantle from their new AG. Now they’re going after FFL dealers and demanding records detailing the sales of Glocks, which I could have sworn they already knew about the sales, because every time you purchase.

Evan Nappen 08:01

Yeah, this is what is such crap about these subpoenas to all the dealers to turn over their records of the last decade for every Glock sold. New Jersey has a pistol purchase permit system, which is a form of register. So, the State Police already have the computerized registered database of every purchase of a Glock since the computerization of the pistol permit system, which completely covers the decade that they’re requesting. In other words, the only reason for this subpoena is essentially, in my opinion, to harass dealers because the information itself is already at their fingertips. Now, the bigger legal question is, is that something legally they’re allowed to access because New Jersey has Administrative Code provisions that mandate confidentiality on all gun records of purchase acquisition. All that kind of stuff is protected by that confidentiality. So, maybe they themselves thought that trying to just get dealer records, maybe could do an end run over their own Administrative Code, preventing the release of this information. Although there is a provision in the Code that says for law enforcement purposes it can be accessed. But this is a lawsuit, not law enforcement purposes. So, it really is interesting the approach they’re taking. If they’re righteous in the law, in being able to access this data, then they can access it through the database in the appropriate legal manner, if they are qualified. And if not, why are they subpoenaing dealers to turn over information that is already in the possession of the State of New Page – 5 – of 14

Jersey? And these application forms, et cetera, are protected by way of their own Administrative Code provisions, setting out confidentiality.

Teddy Nappen 10:20

So,

Teddy Nappen 10:21

Yeah, I will say what’s really messed up is I love the AG’s response. So, this was actually from 2A News Team. They asked these questions and the AG responded. Oh no, no. These requests are not seeking information about individual purchasers or any person’s identifying information about their purchases. However, the subpoena says that exact wording.

Evan Nappen 10:50

Right.

Teddy Nappen 10:51

Documents show sufficient sale or transfer of Glock handguns from you to New Jersey customers. Literally, it’s the first line in the subpoena.

Evan Nappen 11:03

Right. And the thing about Glocks. Look, if you own a Glock, you know you better hold on to it. This is the new tactic of the anti-Second Amendment rights movement. To try to ban and restrict Glocks because of a claim that they can be relatively easily converted to fully automatic using what’s called a Glock switch. But mere possession of a Glock switch under federal law is considered a machine gun in and of itself, and these switches are banned in New Jersey as well. The component is already illegal. So, trying to link Glocks to them so that they can further take away one of the most popular self-defense handguns in the world. This is their gambit. This is their gambit now to try to do that.

Teddy Nappen 12:10

So, it was also interesting, is pull it was from the article. Out of the 15 FFLs that they subpoenaed, they were roughly, there was 15 of those FFLs were out of the total authorized Glock dealers. So, I’m trying to think the strategy of it. If they’re trying, if these were just the 15, were kind of like where they went after those two gun dealers and forced them to basically have to essentially declare and register every purchase or gun-related material. Are they just going for the small fish to then go after the whole? Kind of like a staff?

Teddy Nappen 12:46

Out of curiosity. Could there be a constitutional challenge because there’s a federal firearms license? Could you either make the Supremacy Clause argument or just going with the idea of there shouldn’t be a state license, too?

Evan Nappen 12:46

Okay. At a minimum, it’s designed to harass gun dealers. I mean, New Jersey is dedicated to that principle, given the excesses that they go to regarding being a New Jersey retail firearm dealer. I mean Page – 6 – of 14

having an FFL, that’s a federal firearm license. New Jersey also requires for a dealer to have a New Jersey retail dealer firearms license, and the retail dealer firearms license is what is managed by the state of New Jersey. And that’s where you see an incredibly excessive and additional amount of requirements, far beyond what federal law requires, designed to be a legal discouragement to being a dealer. Also, it’s been used in the past as a pretext to raid individuals that had FFLs but did not have a NJ retail dealer license. I’ve had cases on this where individuals that had a federal firearms license for Curio and Relic, collector licenses, the state alleged they were federal firearm licensees and acting as dealers, which they were not. They are collectors. And because they alleged they had a federal license, they needed a New Jersey firearm retail dealer license. They proceeded to conduct raids on the individuals that held Curio and Relic licenses. So, this is one of the risks out there. They were able to purge and merge the federal list to the state list of New Jersey retailers.

Evan Nappen 14:31

Well, the problem is that the federal firearm law is expressly not preemptive. It’s designed to be the absolute minimum gun control harassment that exists throughout the entire country. And then states are invited to, you know, this was the philosophy, invited to go wild. So, you have the baseline of the federal law, which has many constitutional questions about it itself, expressly not being preemptive, and the states are left to their own devices to create whatever stricter and stricter and more harassing and more discouraging gun laws that they want to pass. And as long as those laws are somehow upheld constitutionally, they can keep on going. There is no cap. There’s no cap placed on the attack on our rights. It should exist, but doesn’t, except in a few very narrow areas where there is express preemption.

Evan Nappen 16:22

One of those places where there is express preemption is Title 18 926 A for interstate transport of your guns. You can transport your guns cased, unloaded, locked, not readily accessible, etc., so that you can go through bad states in your travels. There’s areas of preemption, specifically for carry, like LEOSA, Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act, where retired and active law enforcement can carry, regardless of the state law that might otherwise try to prevent them from doing so. There’s actually preemption for carry. It was the original carry preemption, which a lot of people don’t know was for armored car security. Armored car personnel was actually the first federal carry preemption. And then today we’re pushing to try to get national reciprocity, which is in effect national preemption, mandating that every state recognize every other state’s carry rights to that particular resident in whatever state that resident might be in. But generally across 99% of all the federal gun laws, it is expressly not preemptive. So, this is where the problems come in, because there is no cap on the damage that states can do.

Teddy Nappen 17:55

So, it would require an, it would basically either require an act of Congress to amend it to include the preemption.

Evan Nappen 18:02

Yes, literally, what would be great is if we finally get a cap. Now, in theory, the cap on bad gun laws is this little thing we call the Second Amendment, and the Second Amendment’s cap was fairly broad. The Page – 7 – of 14

cap, as I recall, it said shall not be infringed. Okay? Shall not be infringed. So, any infringement is arguably a violation of the Second Amendment. Therefore no state or federal government, because we now have it incorporated to the states through the McDonald case, through the 14th Amendment, like many of our other constitutional rights. No state or federal law should infringe on our gun rights. Yet we’re knee deep in battles over various gun laws that are utterly passed with contempt of the Second Amendment, and then we have to go through these fights over it.

Teddy Nappen 19:09

Yeah, and it’s definitely. I noticed that whenever it comes to New Jersey, I mean, I know people always talk about state powers, how they, you know, always leave it to the states. However, there are some things that there’s just so much abuse by the states that what they do, I mean, just right now, what they are doing right now is disgusting. Where they’re just harassing these dealers, going after them, wasting the taxpayers dollars. And it’s the level of where, all right, the federal government needs to step in, and I can see everyone’s like, “Oh, don’t allow the feds to get in, but here is the truth. They abuse it so much that there’s just no, there’s no value.

Evan Nappen 19:54

Well, frankly, if we simply made the federal law, as it stands right now, as the preemptive. Just passed a law saying federal law preempts state law. Then every state gun law would become mooted out. Done. Invalid. Because only the federal law would apply. And currently under federal law there are no prohibitions on carry. There’s no addressing that in a negative way. Now, they might say, because the federal law doesn’t address it at all, then the states could still try to regulate carry. But then we still have the constitutional Second Amendment with the Bruen decision and such regarding carry. Then if we look at how the impact would be beyond that, well, everything else that these states try to pass, particularly on sale, possession, or on any of that, it would all be preemptively null and void by way of a federal law that they first engineered to just be a minimum to suddenly become the maximum. And that would concentrate our efforts only to having essentially federal fights, which would be pretty good, because instead of the pro-gun movement, those that defend our gun rights, and instead of having them fighting in every jurisdiction, everywhere, every state or county or town that passes some anti-Second Amendment gun rights law that we have to go in and challenge, we would have a preemptive federal law. So, every battle would simply be taking place, for the most part, at the federal law level of preemption, and it would basically gut that entire expenditure of the battle that we constantly have to foot the bill and pay for. It would be an interesting thing to conceptualize, to finally have a federal full preemption. I think it’s workable.

Teddy Nappen 22:18

Yeah, and look, I never thought we’d ever see, like, the tax stamp removed for suppressors, and having a chance for it to be removed from the NFA, so anything is possible. We just need to get the right people in, and the right amount of votes.

Evan Nappen 22:30

Yeah, it might, it might actually be, but then you’ll have even pro-Second Amendment folks, say, oh, states rights, states’ rights, you know. And they become so focused on so-called states’ rights that we still are losing our rights, because, as you say, Teddy, there’s an abuse by the states of our rights, and Page – 8 – of 14

this could end that abuse. So, when you have an abuse of state power, then the federal government really should come in to stop the abuse by the states.

Teddy Nappen 22:53

I think it was in New York, and this might have been years ago. Do you remember they posted the map of who owned firearms?

Evan Nappen 23:15

Yeah, it was New York, yeah, right. And then the public record, and then you could, it was searchable when you could find the gun owners.

Teddy Nappen 23:25

Of course, a lot of them got robbed and harassed, and everything in that, which is just like, all right, fine. And you know what? When is it going to be enough for states’ powers? When they say everyone wears a yellow armband? It’s a picture of an AR, like states power, states rights. It’s such BS for allowing the abuse that comes down from New Jersey. Where you have the gulag that is the symbol of oppression of a totalitarian regime, and it just pisses me off so much when I hear that argument. I hear the people that make perfect the enemy of good, every time. How long did it take us to lose our rights to these people? Decades. And that’s what it’s going to take to get them back. It’s just disgusting.

Evan Nappen 24:12

It is. But we’re in the fight, and we have to keep this fight on. Politically, the big picture is critical in our ability to win and get these changes. As much as all this is aggravating, if you step back, man, I can step back and look from having been practicing gun law for over 40 years. I can look and say we have come a long way. We’ve come a long way. The fact that we can finally have a carry permit in New Jersey is astounding. It’s astounding that we got to that, because that was something that seemed like an impossibility, and yet it got achieved. You can see amazing other advances.

Evan Nappen 25:07

Hopefully, shortly, we will see the Supreme Court take a hardware case. We need them to take a hardware case. What I’m talking about is so-called assault firearms or assault weapons, magazines, where there is hardware that’s been banned. Where the constitutionality of the ability to ban hardware finally gets established out of the Supreme Court to end it, to stop it. That’s something that we’ve got to get to, and I think we’re going to see that soon. It is coming. There are so many cases, and they’ve been going up the chain. I think we’re going to see it. I don’t know if it’ll be, you know, this session. We’re getting close, and that’s what we saw, the prediction by even the U.S. Attorney General. The U.S. Attorney General saying they believe that ARs and others, Supreme Court will eventually pronounce they are legal.

Teddy Nappen 26:16

I know there’s like, I know there’s rumors, everyone, about the different justices retiring. Imagine if Justice Thomas’s retirement, his last decision that he does, is he legalized and ends the assault firearm bans across the country. Page – 9 – of 14

Evan Nappen 26:31

Oh, that’d be just wonderful. I’d like to see St. Thomas.

Teddy Nappen 26:36

Yeah. You know they did the commemorative, like Heller, like revolver, I remember that they.

Evan Nappen 26:43

Which I have, I have a commemorative Heller Smith & Wesson .38. Not only was it commemorative and put out by Smith when the Heller decision came down, so it’s actually a Smith & Wesson bonafide commemorative, but I have that, I think I showed it to you, Teddy, it’s signed personally by Dick Heller, who’s a friend. So, I have a signed commemorative of the Heller decision, signed by Dick Heller himself.

Teddy Nappen 27:10

Well, the next one I want it to be just, it’ll say the name of the case, and it’s just the Clarence Thomas smile that you see. The GIF area Thomas commemorative AR.

Evan Nappen 27:23

And then, of course, the Left would complain that it’s racist because it’s a black rifle. No. You can’t be racist against Thomas, right? I mean, they always talk.

Teddy Nappen 27:37

No, no, they say you can, because they say that he’s not black enough. If you know his entire history, the like, his, you could not, you could not live as a like a black American, like his entire thing, like inner city kid, like I think he was a single, like single mom, they like raised, like literally did the like live the entire black experience like it would be a lifetime movie. It would be amazing.

Evan Nappen 28:05

He is an amazing man with actually the embodiment of the American dream, in effect. Coming from an absolutely underprivileged, you know, situation where he rose to be one of the greatest Supreme, one of the greatest, for sure, Supreme Court justices. His amazing story about an amazing man. Just great. And they don’t, because just like with gerrymandering, where there are plenty of Republican minority reps out there, it’s not racism at all. It’s the Democrat power grab, and because Judge Thomas is conservative, they refuse to acknowledge the benefit of having such a great man.

Teddy Nappen 29:03

Yeah. And he is what Joe Biden would describe as articulate, bright, and clean.

Evan Nappen 29:09

Oh G-d.

Teddy Nappen 29:13

I love how Biden said that to Obama. I know. Page – 10 – of 14

Evan Nappen 29:16

I mean. He would constantly say these things. And yet they will extrapolate 10 times out to try to paint Trump as racist when Biden was. He bona fide said stuff that was absolutely insane with racism. Stereotypical racism.

Teddy Nappen 29:44

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 29:45

Yeah, really. I mean, just come on. Insulting and amazing. Well, and let me tell you, Teddy, about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range. You and I have shot there, and you love WeShoot, don’t you, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 30:04

I had a great time.

Evan Nappen 30:05

We always do, every time. We got our certifications there for our carries, and you can do the same. They’ve got a great pro shop, great trainers, great facility, and it’s really conveniently right off the Parkway in Lakewood, New Jersey. Lakewood, New Jersey. You want to check out the WeShoot website at weshootusa.com. And you should make sure you get on their email list, because WeShoot sends out a lot of great stuff via email. All their great deals and specials and cool events they’re doing and all kinds of fun things. WeShoot is extremely dynamic, and they are always doing something. WeShoot is just super fun. So, if you’re looking for a great range to belong to, a great place to shoot, a great place to hone your skills, get your training, you cannot do any better than WeShoot in Lakewood. Check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 31:18

Let me also mention my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the bible of New Jersey gun law. It is a book used by, well, everybody. If you want to understand New Jersey gun law, you need my book, which is not surprisingly titled New Jersey Gun Law. You can get your copy at EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com. When you get the book, you’ll see it is very large. It is over 500 pages. It’s 120 topics, all question and answer. And the greatest thing about my book is that the book itself can be used as a weapon. It’s that big. I’m not advising you to do that, but should you need to, yes, that is a book you don’t want to get hit in the head with. So, check out New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com. Teddy, I bet you have something else up your sleeve to tell us.

Teddy Nappen 32:18

Well, one of the things that did come up, and I just thought, what the heck? This is in the feed of the New York Times. Where are all the AK 47s? Like, where have all the AK 47s gone? I know.

Evan Nappen 32:19

I don’t know. Where have they gone? Page – 11 – of 14

Teddy Nappen 32:21

I know. It was a very interesting article, but it was also very strange. Just reading through, I don’t know if you ever heard of Jim Fuller?

Evan Nappen 32:47

The Fuller Brush Man?

Teddy Nappen 32:49

Apparently, he’s a gunsmith. He makes custom AKs. I’m not too familiar on that, but he was going into details of, like, and they were talking about the collapse of the AK market.

Evan Nappen 33:01

Well, there is a downturn, but prices aren’t collapsing.

Teddy Nappen 33:06

Yeah, I mean, how much are you going for?

Evan Nappen 33:08

One of the Russian AKs going. You know the problem is, what led to the big boom, of course, was when we were importing AKs. We could have them from China and Russia. Although we were getting really cheap ammo, and there was so much of the surplus ammo, the 762 by 39 that it became extremely popular, because you could so reasonably shoot. Then it became so overwhelmingly possible that even American-made guns, like the Ruger Mini 30, for example, were being made in 762 by 39. Then you also had the influx of very reasonable SKSs. I mean, I remember when SKSs were under $100, for an SKS, and then you know the reasonable AKs and all that coming in with cheap ammo. Man, it was great. Then they started to ban the import, the ban of Chinese, ban of Russian, and the cheap ammo dried up. The guns that were coming in, the imports like those were dried up.

Teddy Nappen 33:56

Apparently, it was in 1989 under Bush, because the shooter used the Chinese AK.

Evan Nappen 34:32

Please remember, it was Bush. It was Bush, the Republican, the neocon, and this is one of the things that you got to always remember. Even though they may have the “R” there, they’re not necessarily a friend of the Second Amendment.

Teddy Nappen 34:47

Yeah. And then the article tries to highlight more of like 2014 where the annexation of Crimea, the U.S. put sanctions on Russia. So, there goes all the Russian AKs.

Evan Nappen 34:57

Well, not just Russian AKs. I mean, we were getting a lot of great guns, really cool guns from Russia, you know. We’re getting SKSs – originals, beautiful guns. I mean, phenomenal. Russian SKSs are probably the best SKS ever made, machined, gorgeous. Mosin-Nagant rifles, right? They were very Page – 12 – of 14

reasonable, and you know, you want to do the enemy at the gates, man. You got your gun and super strong, tough rifles. You know, a lot of great stuff could come in, and now we don’t see it anymore. And prices have skyrocketed. I mean, if you look at SKS prices today, holy crap. You’d be lucky to find a Chinese SKS that you used to be able to buy for less than $100, one in great shape today for 600 bucks, you know? I mean, easily 600, some even more. I’ve seen Russian SKSs pushing $2,000 a piece at the gun show. I mean, the prices are just unbelievable, because the market has a limitation now to the quantity that’s out there. And by the way, there’s probably only a 10th of the amount of Russian SKSs compared to Chinese SKSs. Even with that, the prices are way up there, and one of the reasons is that the SKSs, for example, are excellent functioning rifles. They’re handy. They function great and are very popular.

Evan Nappen 36:36

With AKs, you know, there was that whole growth of it, and we were able to have all that great, cheap ammo. Once you got into an introductory, reasonable AK, then you wanted to up your game with other AKs, and all that. But what’s happened is, with the close out of that, we’ve become more, much, much more AR focused. The AR-15 platform, and everything about it. That’s all, a lot of it is U.S. made, and kind of America’s rifle. I would have to say today that America’s rifle, without a doubt, is the AR-15.

Teddy Nappen 37:17

I would also say there’s also just the customization, and I think modularity.

Evan Nappen 37:23

Its modularity seems to appeal to a lot of gun folks, because you can add and change and put all kinds of whistles and bells.

Teddy Nappen 37:32

That also goes to the tone of American culture versus like the Eastern Bloc of the AK 47. We’re very individualistic, where we will make it so it is something that works for us, versus, you know, the AK 47 is designed, it is designed in that shape or form. You can do some small mods, but generally speaking, you pick up an AK 47 it’s, you know, hold it up to another one, like that’s the level of it.

Evan Nappen 37:58

That’s an interesting point, Teddy, about how in those countries they don’t. It’s hard to find a Bubba AK in countries where they make the AKs, isn’t it? They don’t Bubbafi much, do they? But we love to modify, change, and customize, and that’s actually a lot of the fun of it. Let’s face it, it’s fun. It’s fun to add the accessories to fit your needs, make it look cooler, make it function better, make it more appropriate for whatever your needs may be. But then again, the anti-gun rights crowd will suddenly take any given feature and demonize certain features. So, if they are intrinsically evil, that if for some reason you have a telescoping stock on your AR or any other semi-auto, because your stock moves one or two inches back and forth, somehow that is such a huge impact on crime.

Teddy Nappen 39:09

Or has a barrel shroud, which they can’t define. Page – 13 – of 14

Evan Nappen 39:12

Oh yeah, well, they try to. Remember.

Teddy Nappen 39:15

The shoulder thingy that goes up, you know, the seat belt.

Evan Nappen 39:18

The shoulder thingy that goes up is a barrel shroud. Isn’t that interesting? These are the experts that are voting for these laws. They have no clue what they’re even voting for, nor do they care. As long as it’s going against gun owners, they’re for it. They don’t care what it is.

Teddy Nappen 39:39

Yeah, and I will say, just from the article, like, they try to, of course, they try to say, oh, Trump’s tariffs is what killed the AK market. There’s like also going from Russia, Ukraine, which they tried to say, you, oh, Poland is one of the key suppliers of Ukraine. No, the United States is one of the key suppliers of military to Ukraine. We’ve, you know, what is it, 40 billion, 80 billion, like crazy amounts, like they’re just still in that. And then again, tariffs are non-inflationary. We’ve known that, we’ve proven it. And I love how they try to say, well, we could get more AKs if we removed tariffs on Poland.

Evan Nappen 40:21

Well, you know, it’s pretty bad when the Left media is trying to lure removal of tariffs by saying we could get more AKs in the country. That’s a pretty interesting stretch for them.

Teddy Nappen 40:34

I know why they’re doing it. They’re trying to turn gun owners. They’re trying their best to turn gun owners into the debt, which is a ridiculous concept. They’ve demonized them, called them racist, call them everything under the sun. So, good luck trying to convince a gun owner to be considered a Democrat. If they are voting Democrat, you’re voting for your own destruction. I’m sorry.

Evan Nappen 40:54

And speaking of destruction of gun owners, that is what GOFUs are. GOFU is our Gun Owner Fuck Ups. Every show we like to highlight the GOFU of the week, and this week’s GOFU is something that is constantly coming my way in the practice of law. And some of you listeners may say, yeah, it’s obvious, but I still have to say it because I keep getting case after case after case. It’s real simple, folks. You need to know your state’s gun laws. Most people understand that they need to know their state’s gun laws, but it doesn’t end there. If you travel out of state, you need to know the state’s gun laws that you’re traveling to. I constantly get cases of individuals that come from other states and end up being criminally charged in New Jersey because New Jersey’s gun laws are nothing like the gun laws of the state they were traveling from. The reverse is true, my friends. The reverse is true.

Evan Nappen 42:13

You may have a New Jersey carry permit, but you need to know, if you don’t know, that no other state in America is recognized by New Jersey. No other state’s gun license is recognized by New Jersey. New Jersey has no reciprocity per se. When you travel, there are states where you can carry, because Page – 14 – of 14

despite New Jersey not recognizing their carry license, they’re willing to recognize any lawfully issued state carry. Many of the states, over 70% of the land mass in America, is constitutional carry, where as long as you’re law-abiding, you can carry even without a permit. But you still have to know, because I get calls from New Jersey folks that are getting jammed up in other states, making the mistake that others frequently make coming into New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 43:24

So, the GOFU is real simple. Know the gun laws. Know the gun laws of the jurisdiction that you are residing in, and know the gun laws of the jurisdiction that you may be traveling in. It’s critical! I see it every day as a classic of virtually all GOFUs. This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 44:05

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S5 E291_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 265-Gun Control… Now With Wi-FiAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 265 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Glock switches, Second Amendment, machine gun, V series, full auto, semi auto, NFA, AI technology,

Wi Fi surveillance, gun control, carry permits, New Jersey, gun law, self defense, legalization.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:16

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:18

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:20

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you may have been seeing in the news all the hyper activity about

Glock switches. And, you know, for those of you who aren’t familiar with a Glock switch, it’s a device

that can be easily 3D printed that can be put on the back of a Glock slide. This allows you, by flicking a

switch, to make the semi-automatic Glock pistol into a fully-automatic Glock pistol. Now, just the switch

itself, if you possess just the switch, is considered a machine gun, and you can face 10 years in federal

prison and all of that fun. And not to mention the state law charges as well. But you see, the Second

Amendment oppression gang has taken this issue of Glock switches, you know, things produced by

essentially criminals who are printing these up, procuring them, and the actual criminals getting caught

with Glocks having these Glock switches, and they’ve decided, hey, we can blame Glock for illegal

conversions of their gun.

Evan Nappen 01:54

So, this is their new gambit to go after, essentially, the modern polymer handguns of multiple types,

even by going at their ability to be converted by use of a totally prohibited and illegal device that is used

by criminals and created by criminals and criminally possessed and criminally sold. But somehow that

is Glocks fault, you see. So, this is the twisted world that we live in. And Glock recently, as some of you

may know, discontinued their models to come out with the new V Series. And the new V Series

eliminates the slide the way it was constructed, so that the Glock switch can function in the back of that

slide. Okay? They changed their design, in effect, to either try to subvert the litigation from the Second

Amendment oppression folks, or to try to address this issue in a mechanical way. Whatever some

people think they’re, they’re rolling over, but it’s probably more along the line of a corporate decision

making based on what they’re facing. Whatever the basis or reason is, I don’t know. But the bottom line

is, they’ve changed their models. They have the V system coming out, which cannot use these

traditional Glock switches, and lo and behold, the V’s have just hit the market. They’re out there. And

guess what is now out there for the V Series? That’s right, a new Glock switch. A new Glock switch that

Page – 1 – of 12makes the V Series supposedly to rock and roll. So, you know, technology constantly gets defeated if

you have criminals wanting to do so. And this is just going to be an endless game of what? Re-

modification to a new type of switch to another new type? I mean, it just gets to the point of silliness.

Teddy Nappen 04:14

It’s very funny, too, because the meme going around is life finds a way.

Evan Nappen 04:21

Yeah, life finds a way.

Teddy Nappen 04:23

Life finds a way.

Evan Nappen 04:24

Well, here’s, but I have the solution to the entire Glock switch issue, to the whole issue of, you know,

modifying firearms into full auto and all of that. It’s real simple. We need to just legalize full auto. I

mean, it’s really simple. Then it wouldn’t be an issue. Then if you want to have a Glock that has a Glock

switch, if you want to have a Glock 18 that’s factory switchable, fine. If you want to have one. You see,

here’s the problem. You see, it has been constructed as an argument by the oppressionists going all

the way back to the 1934 Machine Gun Act, the NFA, somehow distinguishing semi- automatic from

fully-automatic. And we even see the pro 2A folks, you know, try to make that distinction. Say, look, you

know, my semi-auto isn’t a machine gun. It’s semi-automatic. And the antis say, well, you know, it’s

easily converted or whatever. Or semis can be just as bad. So, we need to ban semi-automatics.

Evan Nappen 05:39

And then you fall into that trap. It’s a trap because, folks, let’s be honest. What’s the difference between

fully-automatic and semi-automatic? It’s real simple. With semi-automatic, you pull the trigger for each

shot. With fully-automatic, you hold the trigger and the shots all fire. Okay, big effing deal. You’re still

shooting the same bullets. You’re still firing the same gun, and you’re still blasting them out. The only

difference is you don’t have to pull the trigger for each shot. Oh, my God. Okay? It’s really a phony

baloney difference. We shouldn’t tolerate the difference, and machine guns shouldn’t be prohibited. It’s

that simple. It is a crap distinction. Who cares if the rounds come out because you have to pull the

trigger for each shot or hold the trigger for all the shots. Does it really matter? Come on. So, this whole

development of this distinction is now being utilized by the anti-gunners to try to ban handguns, folks.

To ban semi-auto handguns because of the artificial nature of that distinction.

Evan Nappen 07:10

And we, as Pro-Second Amendment rights folks, need to break out of this and just say, legalize full

auto, legalize semi, legalize pump, lever, whatever. There’s no distinguishment upon actions of a

firearm. None. If it shoots, it’s a gun. We have a right to have it. Who cares how much lead it spews by

whether you pull the trigger or hold the trigger. It’s just stupid. I don’t want to play on their playing field. I

don’t want to accept this artificial distinction that we never should have accepted to begin with. And by

the way, the original NFA, the original law from ’34 was a ban on both semi- automatic and fully-

Page – 2 – of 12automatic firearms, and it evolved through the committee hearings so that semi-automatics were okay

and full auto became the prohibited version. But that distinction was stupid then, and it’s stupid now.

Evan Nappen 08:26

Maybe it was a way to somehow pass gun control national where, even at the time, the NRA said,

we’ve solved the gun control problem for the country by having this wonderful National Firearm Act

there. Look, the NRA was naive. And I’m not bashing NRA, okay? Not doing that. I’m just saying back

then, maybe they thought it was the way to play it. But look, we’ve learned since then, okay? It’s not.

And we’ve got to not accept it. We need the NFA gone. We should have the right to machine guns,

suppressors, you name it, any other weapon. That federal law needs to go, and we need to quit the

phony baloney nonsense of trying to distinguish between semi-auto and full-auto.

Teddy Nappen 09:14

I will say, just kind of, I always look to the segment as to look at history. Right after World War Two, you

had every soldier coming home and what was the thing they were holding? Grease guns, Thompson’s.

All of them were coming home saying, like, hell yeah, that machine gun was fantastic.

Evan Nappen 09:34

It saved my ass. Saved my ass. That’s right.

Teddy Nappen 09:37

They had a chance.

Evan Nappen 09:37

They had the opportunity. They could have.

Teddy Nappen 09:41

All these people could have said.

Evan Nappen 09:42

Right!

Teddy Nappen 09:42

Hell, yeah, I want my machine gun. I say, it saved my ass.

Evan Nappen 09:46

Why not?

Teddy Nappen 09:47

True. It saved my troops. What happened?

Evan Nappen 09:50

Right!

Page – 3 – of 12Teddy Nappen 09:50

And they blew it. And now,

Evan Nappen 09:52

Well, they were naive. They didn’t realize that opportunity, and it passed. Well, we have a new

opportunity. Now is a new opportunity, especially as we’re attacking NFA with the big, beautiful lawsuit

at least. Going at now that the taxes have been removed from everything except on machine guns. But

if we can win getting rid of the NFA by simply having the tax removed, then the next reconciliation bill,

we can remove the tax on machine guns, and machine guns will be legal, too. So, we have a pathway

here to actually achieving this, and we’ll have to see.

Evan Nappen 10:32

But you know, Teddy, I saw this article that’s very disturbing, because it has some serious, serious

ramifications for technology and guns. This is from Zero Hedge. And the article is entitled,

“Pennsylvania School District Using AI-Enabled Wi-Fi To Search Students For Firearms.” This article is

from November 18, 2025, by Tyler Durden. (https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/pennsylvania-

school-district-using-ai-enabled-wi-fi-search-students-firearms) And what he says in this article is very

scary, okay? Very scary. Not just because of what’s going on with schools, but the actual ramifications

of this. Listen to this. Pennsylvania school district is using artificial intelligence to keep guns off the

campus, and the way they’re doing it, this new technology combines AI and Wi-Fi. And the way it works

is spooky, because AI harnesses the district’s Wi-Fi signal to determine whether people are carrying

weapons as they enter schools. Get a load of that, folks. Did you know that Wi-Fi signals can be

harnessed to determine whether somebody is carrying a weapon or not? They have this technology,

folks, and this school is using it.

Evan Nappen 12:06

The technology was developed by CurvePoint of Pittsburgh, and it grew out of AI research from

Carnegie Mellon University. And according to the company, Wi-AI uses spatial intelligence to find

weapons, such as guns, before they enter a school. The AI system analyzes space and detects where

potential weapons are located by interpreting how Wi- Fi signals reflect off people and objects. Let that

sink in. Do you think they’re going to keep that technology just on schools? And look, it’s a question

whether they should even have it in schools. There’s Fourth Amendment and all kinds of privacy

issues. I get it, but think of this technology now, everywhere, everywhere.

Teddy Nappen 13:05

You know what they just did. They stole a plot from Dark Knight, where you.

Evan Nappen 13:10

Really?

Teddy Nappen 13:10

Use sonar, because when Batman.

Page – 4 – of 12Evan Nappen 13:13

Oh, you’re right. You’re absolutely right.

Teddy Nappen 13:15

It maps the entire city and Lucius, you know, Morgan Freeman, the character he’s like.

Evan Nappen 13:20

Yeah!

Teddy Nappen 13:21

This is wrong. Did they see that movie and like, hell yeah, that’s a great idea.

Evan Nappen 13:27

Ha, ha, ha! I think that’s what they did. I think that’s what they did. You’re absolutely right. Yeah, this is,

this is the Dark Knight apocalyptic scenario here, and we’re dealing now with really a brand new world

of Fourth Amendment concerns. And this is very spooky. In the article here, they quote from a Seattle-

based lawyer named Evan Oshan, he happens to have the same name as me. No relation. It says

technology could devolve into allowing warrantless searches of every person who enters a campus with

no evidence or reasonable suspicion. Then he goes on, and if not checked, technology could be

implemented in all public spaces, creating an even larger surveillance state. Let’s consider that, oh boy.

Evan Nappen 14:28

And he says this technology creates a slippery slope. Today, it’s Wi-Fi signals searching for weapons in

schools. Tomorrow, it’s public transportation, shopping malls, government buildings. Where does it

end? The Constitution provides the guardrails, and we ignore them at our peril. He’s not kidding, folks.

You can see this being abused by states like New Jersey to the nth degree. And even if you’re a legal

licensed carrier, are you now going to be subject to just random stop and search? Stop and frisk? Stop

over that because of Wi-AI? And I thought of something else here that isn’t even mentioned in the

article. If this technology is accessible in this way to just this institution, well, criminals that want to rob a

place can probably hack into Wi-Fi in a given area, and using this technology, determine if anybody is

armed or not before they hit it. It seems to have an amazing potential to set up for crime. It can be used

by criminals. This is scary stuff. It intrudes on our rights. We need to pay attention. They need to start

putting some laws in place to protect us from Wi-Fi AI.

Teddy Nappen 16:06

I will say for the one bit as a counter. The same mad lab that put the Glock switch on the V, someone is

immediately going to start working on guns that don’t get detected. I promise you that. They will.

Evan Nappen 16:19

Well, we can hope for that.

Teddy Nappen 16:21

Yeah, let’s hope for that.

Page – 5 – of 12Evan Nappen 16:22

Yeah. Let’s hope we can have Wi-Fi deflection, Wi-Fi stealth technology, you know. Yeah, yeah, good.

Well, there’s always hope that technology will save us in protecting our rights. That’s true. By the way, I

want to also make a quick point here about a cool article I found in News2A, which is Second

Amendment news. You can check them out at www. news2a.com. They had an article here that says,

“As Carry Permits Surge, New Jersey Begs Court to Deny Sensitive Places Carry Ban Rehearing.”

(https://www.news2a.com/new-jersey/as-carry-permits-surge-new-jersey-begs-court-to-deny-sensitive-

places-carry-ban-rehearing/) So, we’re in the fight, as you know, over the Carry Killer bill, and we’re

trying to get an en banc hearing with a full panel as we’re continuing our fight through the appeals

court, probably eventually heading to the Supreme Court. One of the things I want to point out from the

article, you want to read the article about that whole debate, whole debate over that, about the lawsuit

and its progress go right ahead.

Evan Nappen 17:28

But one tidbit here that I picked up in the article that I just want to share, that I really love. You know,

prior to the Bruen decision in New Jersey, we had approximately 600 civilian carry permits issued,

probably less than 600 for the whole state. The current number of carry permits in New Jersey,

according to this article, which was November 17 of 2025, New Jersey carry permits, now are, issued

carries now, are at 86,656 carries. And that’s according to the state’s own data. Imagine that folks

almost 90,000 and growing. That is how many people wanted to carry. Wanted to be defenders instead

of victims, and were stopped by New Jersey from being able to defend themselves. We’re almost at

90,000. Think of all the people that New Jersey prevented from defending themselves, and how much

blood is on Jersey’s hands of victims who maybe could have saved their lives or saved their loved ones

lives, if they had been allowed to defend themselves. That New Jersey prevented. And now, with a

growth like that, of almost 90,000 and more, the more carry permits out there, the better, because that’s

how we get the Constitutional carry. That is how we get there, and that pattern has been demonstrated

historically over and over again. So, keep getting your permits. More and more permits, more and more

people carrying makes us safer, and it is very encouraging to see that as we continue our fight against

the Second Amendment oppression, folks.

Evan Nappen 19:26

Hey, let me tell you about some very, very big news about our good friends at WeShoot. Listen to this

really exciting news from WeShoot. On December 7, at 10:00 am, WeShoot will be hosting this guy,

whose name is Evan Nappen, and joining Evan Nappen will be Teddy Nappen. We will be there at

WeShoot on Sunday, December 7, right there. We’ll be at Out to Lunch, 264 Cedar Bridge Avenue in

Lakewood. Show up for the event. It’s a great event, and I’ll be there answering all types of questions

about New Jersey gun law. I’d love to meet you and see you. This is also in conjunction with U.S. Law

Shield, and it’s at the Out to Lunch event room. That’s the facility where they’re holding it. At the Out to

Lunch event room at 264 Cedar Bridge Avenue in Lakewood. This is in conjunction with WeShoot and

U.S. Law Shield. So, come there and say hello. I love to always meet my great listeners, and I’ll

probably have some books there as well that I can sign for you. So, stop by, stop by, say hello. It’s

going to be good.

Page – 6 – of 12Evan Nappen 21:00

Also, by the way, WeShoot has some great sales. Their so-called Double-Dipping Sale is back, and

what it allows you to do is get some fantastic discounts. And check out WeShoot. And joining WeShoot.

That membership gets you some great advantages, and they’re offering this week just as some

samples of pretty cool stuff. Bul Armory TAC PRO 4.25″ silver. Now that is a competition tuned stunner

with a crisp two and a half pound trigger, a 20 plus one capacity. But, of course, in New Jersey, you’re

only allowed the 10. With a sleek silver finish that performs as good as it looks. They also have a

Samurai Katana. Now this is not a sword, but named after the sword. It is a uniquely styled, battle

inspired blaster with aggressive lines, custom touches and a serious presence on the range. And don’t

forget, they also have a Smith & Wesson Volunteer XV, which is chambered in 5.56 and ready for

action. It’s a modern sporting rifle with reliability, accuracy and American pride. So, go to WeShoot and

check out all the great guns and gear. You can also get your training. It’s a fantastic range. It’s where

Teddy and I shoot. I’m looking forward to doing this event and seeing all you down there. Go to

weshootusa.com for more information.

Evan Nappen 22:45

And let me also mention our friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which, by the

way, are involved directly in that lawsuit challenging the Carry Killer bill. The very one where the state is

trying to fight us at every turn, including trying to get a full hearing from the appellate court. You want to

be part of that group. You want to be part of the fight. You need to be. The Association of New Jersey

Rifle & Pistol Clubs is your NRA state affiliate. It’s the umbrella organization of gun clubs, and they also

have individual members. And by joining, you become part of the solution. So, go to ANJRPC.org for

more information and being able to join that great group. You’ll be glad you did. You’ll get email alerts of

all the shenanigans taking place in Trenton. And there’s some big stuff that they’re trying to give us a

BOHICA on. You need to be part of the Association, and we can fight it. Really bad stuff is coming

down the pike. Make sure you join anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 24:02

Let me also shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It

is the book that everybody uses that wants to know about New Jersey gun law, and you can have your

very own copy. It is over 500 pages, 120 topics, all question and answer. Just go to EvanNappen.com

and order your copy today. It makes a great gift. And when you get the book, scan the front cover, and

join my private subscriber base. You can immediately access the archive right there, right online. It has

the 2025 Comprehensive Update, where I did chapter updates, bringing everything current. The book

stays current. You can also grab the special standout chapter on “sensitive places”, so you’ll know

where to carry and where you can’t. Great stuff. EvanNappen.com. Check it out. So, Teddy, what do

you have for us today in Press Checks?

Teddy Nappen 25:04

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free, and one of those, you know, it’s like Thanksgivings

rolling around the corner. We’re looking at, you know, what’s coming up. So, perusing through

everyone’s favorite anti-gun group, known as Every Town, they decided to put out hey, you know

what’s really good at Thanksgiving to talk about? Politics!

Page – 7 – of 12Evan Nappen 25:33

Yeah, right.

Teddy Nappen 25:34

Their recommendation, to be with your friends and family, talk about politics. Typically, Thanksgiving is

the perfect time to, quote, unquote, “Debunking Gun Myths at the Dinner Table”.

(https://www.everytown.org/debunking-gun-myths-at-the-dinner-table/)

Evan Nappen 25:51

Oh, my God, they are. They’re the bunch of turkeys.

Teddy Nappen 25:55

Oh yeah, yeah, real gobblers. But.

Evan Nappen 26:01

Good one, man. They are gobblers.

Teddy Nappen 26:03

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 26:04

They’re definitely the world class gobblers.

Teddy Nappen 26:08

Yeah. But I just love how they structure this article. I mean, it’s just. Everyone at home. Please just go

and look at it, and you can laugh, because this is what they did. They highlighted one line of some

argument that is made, or their quote “myth”, and then they argue their “fact” to make the argument.

So, I decided, you know what? If anyone, anyone here who’s at a dinner table and decides to bring up

one of their counters to the gun myth, here is my counter to you. So, let’s go through some of them, and

let’s see some of their facts.

Evan Nappen 26:49

What is, let’s hear their B.S. Go ahead, lay it on us.

Teddy Nappen 26:51

Oh, yeah, yeah. So, one myth, criminals will always find a way to get their hands on a gun. Fact – their

fact. Laws like background checks stop gun sales to criminals every day. Since 1994 these laws have

blocked more than 5 million gun sales to people who could not legally buy a gun.

Evan Nappen 27:16

Hey, that’s why criminals don’t have guns anymore. It was such a success that criminals just can’t get

guns. It’s amazing how effective it’s been.

Page – 8 – of 12Teddy Nappen 27:28

Now let me just highlight to you that the, this is from Every Town, by the way, because I love, I love

using their own sources against them.

Evan Nappen 27:37

Yeah!

Teddy Nappen 27:37

They ranked the states with the most amount of gun control. Top nine: California, Massachusetts,

Illinois, New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, Hawaii, Maryland and Washington. Please let that sink in

and tell me that gun control works in these absolute shit pile of states.

Evan Nappen 28:00

Right! That are the worst. The worst oppression of the Second Amendment in all those places, and they

have the records for the crime. It’s exactly the opposite of what they claim. But why should they tell the

truth? They just have an agenda of wanting to disarm us and make us all victims and take away our

guns.

Teddy Nappen 28:24

Yep. And I love this one. They love this myth. “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.”

Evan Nappen 28:32

Oh, that’s a myth. That’s a myth. I just saw a gun running down the street yesterday. You know,

shooting people. It’s amazing. Yeah. Just guns kill people.

Teddy Nappen 28:41

Yeah. Fact: people kill people, and more efficiently than people without guns. The U.S. gun death rate

is 13 times higher than other higher income countries. Okay, first of all. Logical fallacy alert everybody.

Logical fallacy alert. Mott and Bailey. You’re equating death rates of gun death rates of other countries.

So, first off, pencils give bad grades, apparently. And here in this argument.

Evan Nappen 29:19

And spoons are why The View is fat? Yes, the ladies of The View are fat because of spoons.

Teddy Nappen 29:24

Yeah, the cackling hens, of course. But here’s another statistic, a number, that they like to ignore. This

is from the CDC, 2.5 million lives are saved per year from defensive uses of a firearm.

Evan Nappen 29:40

What does that conveniently ignore, Teddy? I’m sure you know.

Teddy Nappen 29:44

Yeah, just you know, the lives that are saved versus the lives taken.

Page – 9 – of 12Evan Nappen 29:48

Oh, lives saved. Yes, and how many lives are saved with guns?

Teddy Nappen 29:54

Yeah, 2.5 million lives are saved per year with defensive use of a firearm. That is from the CDC

website.

Evan Nappen 30:02

Right! Guns save lives.

Teddy Nappen 30:05

So, we could round it off to 3 million. So, let’s just be fair, 3 million lives, give or take. It’s utter, like they

always say, if it could save one life. Well, I’ve got 3 million.

Evan Nappen 30:16

There you go. There you go.

Teddy Nappen 30:18

It’s just uttered, disgusting.

Evan Nappen 30:21

But that’s why we do the oppo research, and this is what we’re fighting — the propaganda of the gun

rights oppression movement. And we’ve got to keep up the fight. And I tell you what, at Thanksgiving, if

you want to talk guns, that’s fine. Talk guns, talk pro-gun. And if you have somebody that is challenging

you on it, make sure you know the facts and counter them back. This is, you know, most of the time you

just want to enjoy holidays with your family. But unfortunately, every family has some that are

misguided. That don’t understand the importance of our rights and don’t understand the war that is

taking place upon our Constitution. So, if you’re going to talk politics, talk freedom, talk rights, and

defend it vigorously.

Teddy Nappen 31:24

And I will say this one, this one absolutely angers me. I always see them try, and I love this. The only

way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. That’s their “myth”, and if more guns

everywhere made safe, America would be the safest country on Earth. Instead, we have the gun

homicide rate 26 time higher than higher income countries. What are higher income countries?

Whatever. So, it’s something that is very, first of all, reverse Nirvana fallacy. Logical fallacy alert. If we

got rid of all the guns, there would be no death, no murder. All right. The number, except the number

one killer, the number one killer of children is accidents. And, quite frankly, the number one killer of

mass shooters. You know what kills them? Guns!

Evan Nappen 32:21

Right. That’s what stops them.

Page – 10 – of 12Teddy Nappen 32:23

Yeah, even if they shoot.

Evan Nappen 32:25

The reason a good guy with a gun is far from being a myth and is a fact. Is that any logical, reasonable

person can individually appreciate that very fact. Because I’ll tell you right now, I’d rather have a gun

and not need it than need a gun and not have it. And that need a gun aspect is what we’re talking

about. Because when there’s a bad guy with a gun, you need a gun to stop that bad guy. I don’t care

about statistics. I really don’t. I care about me being able to defend myself and my loved ones, and if

somebody else is threatening me, it is a firearm that I need to have the most effective means of self-

defense. So, when you distill it down to our own personal interests, which is what rights are all about,

it’s about our individual rights, my individual right, your individual right to defend ourselves and not be

victims of criminals. And I’ll tell you right now. A good guy with a gun beats a bad guy with a gun every

time, and what’s no good at all is a bad guy with a gun and a good guy who has no means of self-

defense. You want to really be in a lousy spot. That’s the lousy spot to be in. The bad guy with a gun

and you have no means of defense, so you don’t even have to step into statistics. Don’t even need it.

Teddy Nappen 33:56

Yeah, and that lousy spot, look at Britain, where the massive raping gangs all across. It took a little girl

to defend herself with a hatchet and a knife. You look to Australia, with all the rampant crime of assault,

theft, rape going all these quote, unquote, high income countries, you know what we have that’s

different. We’re allowed to actually defend ourselves and not be prosecuted where you have no right to

defend yourself.

Evan Nappen 34:23

Because part of the Second Amendment is also a Constitutional right to self-defense. And you know,

sometimes you hear the antis even point to Japan. They say, look, the raid in Japan where they banned

guns is so much less than the U.S. Well, Japan, first of all, is a very homogeneous population, right, of

Japanese. But here’s the real kicker that they don’t tell you. The percentage of violent crime amongst

Japanese-Americans who have access to firearms is even less than that of the Japanese country,

Japanese. So, you know, Japanese-Americans, it’s even lower. They have access to guns. So, it’s not

really about the guns. It’s about the culture. And if you step back and say, hey, where are these really

bad states, where is the really bad crime problems? And then you see it’s urban more than anything,

and it’s urban culture more than anything. But once you start talking about having to change culture, oh,

the Left doesn’t want to hear about that. It doesn’t want to hear. They’d rather blame the inanimate

object and go after our ability to defend ourselves.

Teddy Nappen 35:40

I also like how they always try to compare Japan. I’m like, Oh, really. And how do you feel about their

immigration policies? Because I agree with those.

Evan Nappen 35:50

That’s a whole other thing.

Page – 11 – of 12Teddy Nappen 35:52

They always like to pick and choose those things, don’t they?

Evan Nappen 35:55

Yeah, that’s pretty funny. They sure do. Well, Teddy, I want to tell you about this week’s GOGU, which

is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And we always love talking about the GOFU because these are expensive

lessons learned by actual individuals with actual cases. We don’t want any of our listeners to be

GOFUs and that’s why we talk about them. So, this is your chance to learn for free, expensive lessons.

The GOFU this week is about trying to get gun information from the internet. Listen, folks, gun law

information. Gun law information. You have to be extremely careful with AI and Google and all this. I

get clients that have looked at the Internet for their information, and it couldn’t be further from the actual

law. It is very dangerous to rely on anything you get out of the internet. It is full of falsehoods, full of

blatant fantasies, full of misinformation that gets put forward as actual law. And I have clients that have

unfortunately gotten themselves into trouble because they followed what they just read from doing a

simple search online. And that’s not going to get you the answers you need. When you need to know a

gun law answer, you need to go to a gun law attorney. An attorney that knows and understands the gun

laws. Go to my book, go to actual, proven authoritative sources. When you rely on the internet, you are

at risk. And it never ceases to amaze me as to the absolute B.S. that gets put out there. And what’s

really is sad is when a gun owner relies on it to their detriment. Don’t be that GOFU, folks.

Evan Nappen 38:09

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 38:20

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 12 – of 12

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E265_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 264-Just How F’d up is New JerseyAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 264 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey gun laws, Second Amendment, gun ownership, permit system, disqualifiers, red flag laws, extreme risk protection order, duty to warn, sensitive places, gun seizure, gun rights, gun safety, gun legislation, gun advocacy, gun rights groups.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 1, Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:15 I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17 And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19
And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, not too long ago, I was on a trip and met some folks, not from New Jersey. They were from part of Free America, so to speak. I might call them Bennies. Well, I’m talking Free America, not even Bennies, but you know, places where they have Constitutional carry and where the Second Amendment is not focused for oppression, but, in fact, focused on trying to maximize and protect Second Amendment rights. And one of the things that was brought up to me by the other folks is, you know, they’ve heard New Jersey is bad on guns, right? The reputation of New Jersey has spread throughout America and actually beyond America, for that matter. And they wanted to know, in so many words, just how effed up is New Jersey. And I decided, you know, not only did I explain to them just how effed up New Jersey is, but I realized that this is something that really needs to be stated and talked about.

Evan Nappen 01:48
I wanted to spend this part of the show on that very topic. Just how effed up New Jersey is. I mean, I know we live and deal with the BS of New Jersey and their Second Amendment oppression. And we constantly are talking about the issues that occur. But you know, for those that might not fully understand it or even see the big picture of just how effed up New Jersey is, I want to paint that. I want to lay that out here, and that’s what I’m going to do in the same way as these folks asked me that question. I wanted to fully explain it to them, because they really wanted to know in a more detailed understanding from somebody who has spent their adult life battling New Jersey’s Second Amendment oppression and dealing with the realities of a state that hates guns and hates gun owners. So, that’s the basic starting point.
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Evan Nappen 02:55
But anyway, let’s talk about our issue, though, about guns. So, they hate guns, and they hate gun owners. They’ve done everything in their power to try to continue that hate and make it have force and effect on us. So, how do they do that? Well, first, they establish an attitude and an agenda. So, the attitude and the agenda is to disenfranchise as many people as they can from their gun rights. Set up a system to do that. Steal as many guns from people, as you can, based on any mechanism they can invent to take them. Go after the industry and the folks that are lawful dealers and suppliers. Make and turn gun owners in a projection of being crazy, of being killers, of being individuals that are a detriment and a danger to everyone and society. And so, they put that as their base, and they promote it in every possible way they can.

Evan Nappen 02:55
You have to first understand that before you even talk about the specific areas of New Jersey and just how bad they are. You have to understand that there’s a baseline, and the baseline is New Jersey hates guns and New Jersey hates gun owners. And you have to accept that. Now, you may not believe it. You may try to say, no, no. They’re misguided, or they’re well intentioned and all. But, you know, I’ve come to really understand, folks, that that’s not the case. It is hatred based. It is based in hate. And much of the Left’s policies are based in hate. I mean, you see it. They’re hate driven people. I mean, they are. They’re hate driven and we, as conservatives and Republicans, actually try to be love driven, honestly. We try to love freedom and love our fellow humans. Try to love, you know, the unborn, try to love. We try to put out love, and the other side puts out hate primarily. And yet, they try to paint us as the haters, but that’s because they’re experts in projection.

Evan Nappen 03:13
So, let’s start by taking a look at the gun laws themselves. The first thing they want to do is create a system where you have the most onerous requirements to even become a gun owner that they can possibly get away with. So, in order to do that, well, we’ll start with having permit and licensing systems. So, you know, we can always, oh, look, having a gun license is reasonable. Having a permit is reasonable. We just want to make sure people that have firearms are safe. And, you know, they sell the standard reasonableness to sell their extremism. Okay, so they do that. New Jersey has a permit system that is outrageous in the questions that it asks, the depths that it will go, and the hoops that individuals must jump through in order to lawfully possess firearms. Now, the amazing thing is, we put up with it, don’t we? We deal with it. We get our Firearms Purchaser ID card. We get a Pistol Purchase Permit for every handgun that we want to buy in New Jersey. We go through it. We actually not only put up with everything to get a carry permit, but we can actually finally get a carry permit. Prior to Bruen, it was virtually unobtainable.

Evan Nappen 03:13
But what’s involved in getting those licenses? Well, all of the gun licenses in New Jersey, all of them, the Firearm ID Card, the Permit to Purchase and the Carry Permit, all have a base of disqualifiers under N.J.S. 2C:58-3. These are all the ways that you can be disqualified to being licensed in New Jersey. And the average person might think, oh, they just don’t want convicted felons to have guns, right? Well, of course, New Jersey prohibits felons from having guns, but not just felons. Anyone with domestic violence misdemeanors. So, they expand it to misdemeanors. Then, of course, it’s anybody
Page – 2 – of 13
with a conviction from outside of New Jersey, even if it was a misdemeanor, and even if it’s not domestic violence. If it carries over one year jail outside New Jersey, then you’re prohibited in New Jersey, even though you wouldn’t be prohibited under Federal law. And if you’re convicted in New Jersey of any offense that for which was over six months, where you could have received over six months jail, you are per se disqualified. Just like a felon.

Evan Nappen 04:05
So, you see, they’ve expanded the reasonable, “reasonable”, violent felon to not having to be a violent felon. Being many things other than what might traditionally be viewed as felons. And that’s just on felons. They also go through your background, and they will see if you’ve ever just simply had arrests. If you’ve been charged, even though it was dismissed. Charged – even though you were found not guilty and acquitted any of the charges. And they’ll look at the charges, you were just charged, even though you were never convicted, never found guilty. As a matter of fact, you were even acquitted. And they will still say, oh, well, you’re disqualified from having a gun license based on Public Health, Safety, and Welfare. So, that’s the all inclusive miscellaneous weasel clause that the issuing authorities get to use, so that they can hang their hat on anything they feel like, basically, and say, oh, you’re not safe to have guns because you had an arrest for some offense that you were acquitted for. But we’ve read the police report about what was alleged, and we don’t care that you were not guilty of it. We’re going to say that that makes you somehow a danger, and we see that all the time. We see the abuse of it. So, much that we have data to show that that very section is abused, even with institutionalized racism. Where blacks are more than two and a half to one to whites denied for that reason, that arbitrary public health safety reason that they can get away with anything that they pull out of their ass to try to claim is a basis to disqualify you.

Evan Nappen 09:51
So, that is baked into the cake. And that’s just touching the surface. Because then any mental health commitment at all, even a voluntary one, where you just checked in because you were sad or somebody maybe passed away, or you just had a moment of anxiety, whatever, if you have any kind of mental health commitment. Then they go beyond that even commitment, and say, have you ever been treated or observed by any doctor or psychiatrist for any mental or physical treatment, now that becomes a bar or a potential bar to you exercising your Second Amendment rights. All this is baked into 58-3. This is the standard that applies to all the licenses, and these are just a few of the disqualifiers. If you have a restraining order on you, or have ever had one, then they look and say, oh, well, look, you had unfounded restraining orders. At least the court determined that. But it doesn’t matter. You had this crazy ex-girlfriend at the time that put these on you, and we’re going to say that makes you a danger to Public Health, Safety, and Welfare. So, you get denied for that dismissed TRO. We’ve seen that over and over again.

Evan Nappen 11:03
So, you have all these disqualifiers in New Jersey. Are you an unlawful user of any kind of drugs? Even though New Jersey has legalized marijuana, the Feds create a problem that creates a conflict there. And then, New Jersey will sometimes even jump on it weirdly and say, well, yeah, you’re using legal marijuana. New Jersey says it’s legal, but we’ll deny you, because the feds say that you can’t. So we say you can’t, too, even though we say you can in the state. What is that? That’s just insanity. And
Page – 3 – of 13
again, we’ve run into that. I mean, it goes to a situation of New Jersey knows no bounds when it comes just to denying you getting your gun license. And so that’s what the foundation for just getting your ability to purchase. Go ahead, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 11:59
I was going to say you called it a long time ago, where you said, like, at this point, just New Jersey can come out and say, you know, death penalty to gun owners. And then, sure enough, they raised the level for them with the assault weapon law. If you’re caught with.

Evan Nappen 12:13 Oh, yeah.

Teddy Nappen 12:13
Assault firearm in New Jersey, it’s a first degree. So, yeah, they really.

Evan Nappen 12:17
We haven’t even, right? Well, we haven’t even gotten to that yet, but at this point, I’m confident eventually they will, because their hatred has no bounds. But now, putting aside just the insanity of being able to get licensed in New Jersey and everything you have to do to get to that and get through all their obstacles that they put in the way, plus paying the fees to do it, plus waiting the exorbitant amount of time it takes to get approved and filling out and doing the application and all the time consuming obstacles they put there. Plus requiring the training and photographs and references and everything they can pile on to discourage you, even with all that, we still in New Jersey plow through it and still get our permits. Still get our guns. Even though so many people have to fight, fight, fight, to make it happen.

Evan Nappen 13:18
Then once you have them, now New Jersey’s focus is, how can we steal your guns away and get you disenfranchised. Take away your license. Get you revoked. So, they have a series of legal mechanisms that are set up to do that. They have what’s called Red Flag or called ERPO, Extreme Risk Protection Order where anyone can make a claim that you’re somehow a danger. And then, without you having any say in the matter whatsoever, they take your guns, file this order, and you have to go to court. And then you finally get your due process. Finally, after there’s been no due process for you. You have to fight to get your rights back. And then the battle begins there. They also have Duty to Warn. That’s where if you tell any medical professional, a doctor, a nurse, therapist, anyone, that you in any way want to harm yourself or others. And I mean even as a joke or even as hyperbole. You know, oh man, I could kill that guy, or I’m so mad, I could, you know, harm him, harm myself. Even as a joke. Or, you know, it’s like making a bomb joke at the airport. If you do that, boom, they’re obligated to call the police. Your guns are going to be taken, and you’re going to end up having to fight to get your rights back.

Evan Nappen 14:37
Anytime there’s any allegation of domestic violence, no matter how unfounded, it’s baked into the cake. Built right into the form of the Temporary Restraining Order, pre-printed. All the judge has to do is click
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the box and basically write in there the address so that your guns will be seized pursuant to the TRO, and you’re required to surrender them. So, there’s another mechanism. Then they have the other mechanism that I see, and that’s called pulling it out of their ass. Where the police just take all the guns, for a “safe keeping”, without any statutory basis or court order. And we see that happen all the time. So, it’s one thing to get all licensed and get your guns, then we see New Jersey going to take your guns.

Evan Nappen 15:18
New Jersey passes all different matrix of laws that you have to follow in order to lawfully keep your guns. So, there are 25 plus different “sensitive places” if you’re going to carry. Requirements on holsters. Requirements to tell the officer that you’re carrying a gun, if you’re carrying a gun (Duty to Disclose). Requirements on the size of the magazine, right? It went from 15, then went to 10. And, you know, they’re deciding how many bullets your life is worth. And making all these things, by the way, felonies. Felony level offenses. So, if you have a mag that holds 11 rounds instead of 10, it’s a fourth degree level felony. You’re looking at a year and a half in State Prison. You lose your gun rights. You become a convicted felon. You not only lose your gun rights for New Jersey, but also for the entire United States because you’re now a convicted felon under New Jersey’s insane gun laws. So, they’ve disenfranchised you nationally, not just state side, of your rights.

Evan Nappen 16:20
New Jersey also makes many of these gun offenses incredibly serious. They raised them to levels unheard of – Second Degree. They combine what is minimum mandatory prison sentences so that the judge has no discretion whatsoever. If you’re outside of your lawful ability to possess due to an honest mistake, oh, well, three and a half years minimum mandatory in States Prison for you. Too bad. It doesn’t matter that you have no priors. It doesn’t matter one bit. The judge loses all discretion. It’s required with no way out from under should you become convicted. Then they combine that into the Gun Owner Gulag, where, when you get charged with any of these things, now, the state tries to hold you pending your trial, which can months and months. It could be years. And they’re looking to enhance the Gun Owner Gulag and create presumptions requiring you to remain incarcerated until your trial. Proven guilty of nothing. We deal with these Gulag cases. We’ve discussed them and just how horrible it is in New Jersey. And so, they gulag the gun owners. They want to incarcerate the gun owners. They want to take away their rights. They want to disenfranchise, and they want to steal the firearms. Keep them and forfeit them. They want to turn gun owners into criminals. They want to make them into felons. So, they not only lose their gun rights, but also the right to vote. This is the system that is New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 17:50
This is just an overview of just how effed up New Jersey is, and I see it every day in the practice of gun law. You have to be tough, strong and smart to remain a gun owner in New Jersey. You are, frankly, putting yourself at risk being a gun owner in New Jersey to the system trying to destroy you. But those that believe in their self-defense rights, their rights to have a firearm, still exercise it. Despite the hatred that we deal with emanating from New Jersey.
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Evan Nappen 18:36
And now with this election, the hatred is going to continue, and it’s going to get worse, folks. It’s going to get worse. There are bills pending now that went halfway through the legislature, and we expect to see a big fight. If these other bills go through, they’re going to make the Gulag even worse and virtually automatic on every gun owner to be held pending their trial. There are bills there to turn accidental discharge, which is already aggressively enforced under current law, into what will be a per se offense. A felony, per se. With any AD, you’re looking at felony charges and being put in the Gulag, losing your gun rights. New Jersey’s march to insanity. And I still didn’t even touch the Platkin office where they’re civilly going after retail dealers, gun makers, and manufacturers. Trying to litigate them out of existence, trying to find every way to loophole around the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) designed to try to stop the very thing that New Jersey’s engaging in. The very thing they’re engaging in. They’re trying to litigate them out of existence.

Evan Nappen 19:51
It’s on every front that we’re in a fight for our rights, and New Jersey has no respect. It should be the opposite. They should do everything they can to protect, preserve and respect our Second Amendment rights. But no. It is exactly what they’re not doing. This, my friends, is how effed up New Jersey is. It’s just an overview of what Gun Lawyer deals with all the time in the practice of law. And even though I’ve laid this all out, please keep up the fight. Stay strong, stay smart. We’re going to eventually win. The Constitution is on our side. It’s taking time. It’s going to take effort. But we’ve got the tools federally to finally crush New Jersey and what they’ve done to us for decades upon decades. The height of the fight is here and now, but I do believe the future will be tremendously better for us. It will be. But getting there is going to take standing strong.

Evan Nappen 21:08
And, of course, one of the ways we do that is by unity. By making sure you’re part of groups that fight for our rights. In unity there is strength. And in New Jersey, the number one gun rights group is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the official NRA affiliate. They are the state affiliate. They are also the umbrella organization of the gun clubs of New Jersey. They also have individual members of which you need to be one. They’re there on the front lines. They’re there in Trenton, keeping a full-time paid lobbyist there on guard so that we can take action. And even though the odds are against us, we still can win. We still can and will win. Part of that battle is having a great group like Association. So, make sure you belong to ANJRPC.org. They’re also in the courts, litigating, fighting. We’re going to see court cases that the Association is part of finally getting to the stage of tremendous impact by reaching the Supreme Court. I’m confident that we will see that. There are so many cases heading there. The Supreme Court already has picked to hear two more gun cases, and we’re going to see more and more gun cases. It will be through the enforcement of our Second Amendment right that we finally stop what has been an atrocity by the State of New Jersey over a Constitutional right. And it’s through your State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, that you can see that happen. (anjrpc.org)

Evan Nappen 22:53
And let me also tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood. They’re an indoor range. It’s the place where Teddy and I both shoot. They are very dynamic and doing a lot of
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great things. And one of the things I want to point out that they have going on, and you may be very interested in this, is that on November 20, they will be holding the Diversity Shoot. That’s right. A Diversity Shoot that’s with my friend Tony Simon. It’s the 2A4E Diversity Shoot. It is an outreach of true diversity, because the Second Amendment is for everyone. Okay? That’s what 2A4E means. The Second Amendment is for everyone. And so, let me put it this way. Do you have a friend who’s been wanting to try, let’s say shooting, but is full of excuses? Go to Tony Simon, at WeShoot on November 20 for the Diversity Shoot. All are welcome. Tony is just great to be with. He’s very entertaining, and you will see cutting edge technology. There’ll be free pizza and other refreshments there, and it’s an all inclusive day. They provide everything – the range time and targets and rentals and more. I mean, think about it, pizza and shooting. How can it get any better than that? And Tony will be there. So, think about participating in the WeShoot Diversity Shoot. It’s outreach, and it’s critical.

Evan Nappen 24:47
Because everybody that overcomes the stereotypical media portrayal of a gun owner, every time we do that, we have another person with a vested interest in our Second Amendment rights and has been able to cut through the media BS narrative about guns. They realize that firearms as a right is there for a reason. It’s there to protect you and protect the ones you love. Those that would find a diversity shoot the most helpful are often those that need the protection the most. So, learn and discover the truth by participating November 20 in the WeShoot Diversity Shoot. Going to the WeShoot range. They have training, a great facility, and they welcome all shooters. They welcome all to exercise your Second Amendment right in New Jersey. So, check them out at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 26:08
And speaking of just how effed up New Jersey is, one of the ways to navigate through the treachery that is New Jersey is, with my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s set up purposely to help maintain our ability to be lawful gun owners in the face of New Jersey’s attack and hatred upon us. And I wrote it for just that reason, even though it’s used by state police, judges, lawyers, but thousands of gun owners to stay legal. I explain what you need to know in a question and answer format with over 120 topics. And when you get the book, scan the front cover and make sure you get part of my free subscriber base. You can immediately access the archives that include the 2025 Comprehensive Update, which has full chapters updated, including a bonus chapter on “sensitive places”. I broke out the sensitive places so you know where you can and can’t carry to simplify that matrix for you. To get your copy, go to EvanNappen.com. Evan nappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book. Just click it and buy it. You’ll be glad you did. Hey, Teddy, what do you got for us today in Press Checks?

Teddy Nappen 27:44
Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. And going into what you have talked about, the whole warfare, and I’m calling it warfare, because the left are the party of violence, changed my mind. I’ve seen all this stuff on that, but this seems to be the newest push. I was scrolling through and found this one from, I believe, it was from the Wall Street Journal. “Six Words Every Killer Should Know: ‘I Feared For My Life, Officer.” (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/six-words-every-killer-should- know-i-feared-for-my-life-officer/ar-AA1PnHC0) Okay, first of all, South Park already did this joke. It’s called, he’s coming right for us. Like, secondly. What? And going into this whole article there, this entire
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thing is an anti-stand your ground argument that they go into. Just the utter insanity of actually defending. They find it is shameful. And here I’ll even read it to you. “It’s easier than ever to kill someone in America and get away with it.”

Evan Nappen 28:57 Oh, God.

Teddy Nappen 28:58
Okay then. In 30 states, it’s often required only to claim you killed someone while protecting yourself or others. Well, I mean, typically people will make that argument if they were trying to protect someone else or yourself, like.

Evan Nappen 29:17
Well, that’s because it’s called a lawful use of force.

Teddy Nappen 29:21 Oh, my God.

Evan Nappen 29:22 Big shock.

Teddy Nappen 29:23
Like, that’s how the law works.

Evan Nappen 29:25 Yeah. Almost.

Teddy Nappen 29:26
Like, yeah, God, these people, and then.

Evan Nappen 29:30
They’re conflating the Stand Your Ground and such with.

Teddy Nappen 29:36 Correct.

Evan Nappen 29:37 Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 29:37
Oh, and then they highlight it. While Americans have long been free to use deadly force to defend themselves at home, so-called Stand Your Ground laws in those 30 states extend the legal protections. So, first off, the logical fallacy right here, where they’re trying to equate inside the home versus outside
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the home. You have a right to defend yourself outside your home. It doesn’t stop. Like, what? Is every murderer like, oh, we got to wait till he gets out of the house or he’ll have a good defense.

Evan Nappen 30:14
Okay, okay, okay. Let me, I have to clarify this, Teddy. This is really critical for folks. I even have folks that have called me, that have bought into the media narrative on this, which could almost be detrimental to them. Here’s the deal. Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground is not the requirement that you must meet in order to be justified in your use of deadly force. All castle doctrine and all stand your ground doctrine, all they have to do with is the duty to retreat. Okay? The duty to retreat. That’s it. The duty to retreat is an exception, an exception now, to your lawful ability to use deadly force. So, in other words, the law lays out your ability to use deadly force. You can use deadly force when there’s a reasonable fear, risk of serious bodily injury, or death to you, and you’re reasonable in that use of force, et cetera. Then the law says, however. However, if you can retreat with complete safety, then you can’t and should not, and you’re not justified in using that force. So, in other words, if you can retreat with complete safety, then you’re not justified in using force. Otherwise, you’re justified in using force. So, castle doctrine says, in your home, you don’t have to retreat. Stand your ground says, if you’re in a place where you lawfully can be, you don’t have to retreat. All it does is remove the duty to retreat.

Evan Nappen 32:00
Yet that entire argument about retreat is virtually an argument of silliness. And the reason I say silly is because you have to be able to retreat with complete safety. Tell me how you retreat from a situation where you’re facing serious bodily injury or death with complete safety. Other than, you know, beam me up, Scotty, there’s no complete safety anyway. So, where are they going with it? And as you said, Teddy. You still have a right to use deadly force. The only question is, did you have a duty to retreat? Well, you only have a duty to retreat if you can do so with complete safety. You definitely have no duty to retreat in your home, that’s castle doctrine. And with stand your ground, you have no duty to retreat if you are in a place that you have a right to be. New Jersey does not have “stand your ground”. It does not have that. But even without stand your ground, it doesn’t mean you lose your right to use deadly force. You just can’t use it if you can retreat with complete safety. So, that is the explanation of that. But go ahead, Teddy. I wanted to clarify because we see a lot of confusion.

Teddy Nappen 33:17
I find that very important, because, by the way, the article doesn’t even mention that distinction.

Evan Nappen 33:23
Right? Why would they do that? Why would they do that?

Teddy Nappen 33:27
Hmmm. It goes on. It gets worse, and this is one thing it highlights, which I laughed at. Justifiable homicides by civilians have increased 59% from 2019 through 2024.

Evan Nappen 33:43 Well, that’s a good thing.
Page – 9 – of 13
Teddy Nappen 33:44 Of city, so let me.

Evan Nappen 33:46
That’s a really good thing. Notice that first word, “justifiable” homicide. Well, great. I’m glad they were justified. That meant, if they didn’t have the firearm, they would have been dead, right? They would have faced. Here’s man, yeah, right, come on.

Teddy Nappen 34:03
Here’s the reword of it. Lawful individuals defended their home and shot the criminal who was.

Evan Nappen 34:12
Precisely, precisely. In other words, there’s been an upkeep of lawful self-defense. God bless. Great. Yeah, hallelujah. As well there should be. I’m glad to see it. Every lawful self-defender being a defender and no longer a victim.

Teddy Nappen 34:29
Yeah, and I love. And then, of course, they go with the with more guns in more hands, families are grieving over loved ones lost to quick tempered killings, often involving law-abiding civilians, with no one held accountable. Often, oh, often.

Evan Nappen 34:49
Oh, how often. No one held accountable. That’s right. Yeah, because our, you know, the system just ignores dead people all the time. No. What they, what they used to do is ignore victims, okay? And once victims are no longer victims but defenders, they look real close at what defenders do. They look very closely. And if defenders are justified, then that’s what it’s for. That’s what it’s about. That is the proper use of gun violence. That’s where I’m in favor of gun violence when it’s justified by lawful defenders. Bring on the gun violence.

Teddy Nappen 35:37
Yeah, and I love how they and I got to meet this guy, the authors, Mark Maremont and Paul Overberg. The story because, you know, they have to cherry pick. That’s the game they always play. The story they chose is the worst example. So, here, in De Leon Springs, Florida, this Edward Druzolowski, 78 years old, is watching football. And his neighbor, a 42 years old, and his son, comes on to his property. He’s cutting branches, and he has a chainsaw in his hand. So, he comes on to the other guy’s property with a chainsaw. Now, bear in mind, the other guy who was named Ford, was screaming profanity, yelling curses at Druzolowski who told him to get off his property.

Evan Nappen 36:35
So, wait. You got a crazy guy on meth with a chainsaw?

Teddy Nappen 36:42 Correct.
Page – 10 – of 13
Evan Nappen 36:43
And he was coming at a guy on his property.

Teddy Nappen 36:48 Swearing at him.

Evan Nappen 36:49
Didn’t they do like a movie about that?

Teddy Nappen 36:51
Yeah. No, yeah. It’s leather face. Like they’re arguing that, I love this guy.

Evan Nappen 36:59
So, if you’re attacked by leather face, they think that’s a problem in using deadly force on leather face?

Teddy Nappen 37:06
Like I told him to get off my property. He didn’t. That guy was coming, walking at me. He was coming right at me, walking at me with a chainsaw. So, I shot him. Like, oh my god, the level of insanity. And then the judge later dismisses the case in Florida because of the Stand Your Ground laws, citing to such forces reasonably necessary to defend yourself against Mr. Ford’s imminent use of unlawful force. Okay? Charging at a man with a chainsaw.

Evan Nappen 37:37
Right. But keep in mind that, being called stand your ground, that itself, though, isn’t really about the Stand Your Ground portion so much. In other words, yeah, he didn’t have a duty to retreat because Florida says you don’t have to retreat if you in a place that you have a right to be. But it’s more than that. He defended himself against a crazed meth guy with a chainsaw, trying to relive, you know, a classic horror movie on it, on this guy’s ass, right? And he’s like, no, and you’re going to tell me, even without stand your ground, how the hell are you going to get away with complete safety from a crazed meth guy with a chainsaw after you? With complete safety? Are you going to turn your back and try to run from that guy? Really? What if you trip? What if you fall? We’re talking in complete safety. Where’s the safety? Not a chance, not a chance. So, I’m glad they looked at it. They’re putting it under this banner of stand your ground, but in reality, what was it? It was justifiable. Because he was justified in using deadly force based on the threat that was coming at the would-be victim. That’s how it works. That’s why.

Teddy Nappen 38:59
And it’s one of those that. And then, of course, they have to go with this. And this kind of reminds me, Dad, I believe it was it when you debated, who was it fire, or who was the one guy where? Where the where the lady was like, if two kids came in into your home, Mr. Nappen, and was stealing your food, would you shoot them? Like, no. Are they running away? Are they not threatening me? No, they’re just stealing the food and running away. Well, then I’m not going to shoot them.
Page – 11 – of 13
Evan Nappen 39:31
Well, wait, what if it was pork roll?

Teddy Nappen 39:33 I know, right?

Evan Nappen 39:34
Or Taylor, ham, either one.

Teddy Nappen 39:36
Who would eat that? That’s gross.

Speaker 1 39:38
Uh, well, like, I hear you.

Teddy Nappen 39:44
They have this argument. Like, what if I’m in the 10 items or less line and I have 15 items. And the shopper shoves me in line, shoves me. Can I shoot him?

Evan Nappen 39:56
Is there a threat of serious bodily harm? No. Don’t. They don’t reach the standard reason for use of deadly force. Come on, of course not.

Teddy Nappen 40:03
Yeah. And that part that they like to hide, does he think? Like, it’s always blood in the streets. They always argue that it’s going to be the wild west.

Evan Nappen 40:11
BITS. Blood In The Streets. Bits, always the BITS argument. Bits, bits, bits. Yeah. Well, Teddy the time has come for the segment that everybody wants to know, and that is the GOFU. That’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And the GOFUs are mistakes made by real people in real cases that we see. We want you to learn on the cheap, lessons that these folks have learned expensively. So, this is important. This GOFU that I want to talk about here has to do with storing your guns in your own safe. I’ve been seeing a lot of this. A lot of folks out there, you know, have a gun safe, which is good. You have a gun safe, but in your gun safe, you have your guns, your spouse’s guns, your son’s guns, everybody’s guns is all stuffed in the same safe. Well, that means everybody’s accessing everybody else’s guns. And that’s not good. It’s not good legally speaking. Because they can try to allege unlawful acquisition or transfers, especially if anybody there ends up developing an issue that may preclude them.

Evan Nappen 41:33
We also run into it where if all the guns are in a safe. If one person in the household has an issue and they want to seize that person’s guns, the safe gets opened by law enforcement. And everybody’s guns are getting seized. Plus, if there’s issues as to even the legality of the safe itself being opened, and one
Page – 12 – of 13
of the people in the house consent to it, even though they shouldn’t have, then everybody’s guns get seized and the person. So, there’s a lot of reasons. And the GOFU is, don’t have one safe that has everybody guns in one safe. Everybody should have their own gun safe, their own locked safe. Whatever you’re using that has your own guns in it, do not have a communal gun safe in New Jersey. It is a problem, arguably, under the law as to gun possession. But it also makes you more vulnerable when it comes to New Jersey trying to seize and steal guns from individuals. Have your own gun safe, folks. Don’t commit the GOFU of a communal gun safe.

Evan Nappen 42:48
This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 42:59
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page – 13 – of 13

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E264_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 263-The Recipe for FreedomAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 263 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, First Amendment, gun rights, UK gun laws, gunpowder recipe, terrorism,

extended license, Serious Crime Prevention order, New Jersey gun laws, Black Books, improvised

munitions, school shootings, armed teachers, gun control, gun owner rights.

SPEAKERS

Speaker 1, Speaker 2, Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:14

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:16

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:17

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Folks, we need to get back to basics. When I talk about basics, I’m

talking about our basic Constitutional rights. It’s really always important to step back and understand

that the entire Bill of Rights is what protects us as gun owners. We love and cherish the Second

Amendment, but all the Amendments go to work protecting us, and ultimately our gun rights as well.

And directly tied in is, of course, our First Amendment rights. Freedom of speech. The ability to

communicate, as we do on the show. Fourth Amendment, protecting our property, search and seizure

from the Government. Fifth Amendment against self-crimination. Sixth Amendment, for example, right

to an attorney. The very thing that Gun Lawyer is about. These are all critical and important.

Evan Nappen 01:12

And every time I look and I see other countries that aren’t blessed with a Bill of Rights to the

Constitution and you see the abuse that takes place, you just have to point it out. Because we are

blessed to live in the United States and to have these rights. And to not only have these rights, but to

utilize these rights. So, I just caught a story here that I want to share with you. This is from Bearing

Arms, and it is about, the title is “UK Man Arrested for Possessing Gun Powder Recipe”. It’s by Tom

Knighton. (https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2025/11/04/uk-man-arrested-for-possessing-

gunpowder-recipe-n1230487) And you know, this article is based off an article that appeared in the UK

Defense Journal by Craig Langford, and it was dated November 2.

(https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/leeds-man-jailed-for-possessing-gunpowder-recipe/)

Evan Nappen 02:08

Get a load of this, folks. The UK has gone so far out of control when it comes to no even illusion of

having the rights that you and I take for granted every day. Here is just a great example of it, and right

Page – 1 – of 10from this article. It says a 49 year old man from Leeds has been sentenced to three years and nine

months in prison for possessing a handwritten recipe for gun powder. That’s right.

Teddy Nappen 02:48

Was his name Guy Fawkes?

Evan Nappen 02:51

That’s a good one, Teddy. But it was just a recipe for gun powder, and he was sentenced here,

because he’s going to serve an additional four years on extended license. I guess it’s like a probation

as well after or parole. I’m not a UK attorney. But then he will be subject to Serious Crime Prevention

Order for five years. So, he has this other order hanging over his head as well, along with terrorism

notification requirements for 10 years. Because he admitted, this guy, (Paul) Gilleard, admitted to

possessing information likely to be useful, useful, to someone committing or preparing an act of

terrorism Under Section 58 of the Terrorism Act. The document was discovered at his home during an

intelligence-led search by West Yorkshire Police on May 28. Detective Chief Superintendent James

Dunkerley, head of Counter Terrorism, in a statement, said officers were concerned to discover a

handwritten recipe for black powder during a search of Gilleard’s home in May. A recipe, later verified

by experts as potentially viable. Can you believe this, folks? And then the chief added, possessing

information about the manufacture of explosives will always raise serious questions. And Gilleard has

chosen not to explain or defend the presence of the recipe in his home. Instead, he pleaded guilty to

possessing information useful to a person preparing for an act of terrorism. Can you believe this?

Evan Nappen 04:49

I mean, look at the lack of rights in the UK. First of all, lack of rights concerning possession of

information, folks. We have a First Amendment right. If you want to possess the recipe, the information

on how to make gunpowder, you may do so in the U.S. You can go online right now, go to wiki How. It

explains in detail how to make gunpowder. You can watch the damn Star Trek episode with Kirk, where

he’s fighting that monster and actually makes gunpowder in the episode, remember that one? I mean,

come on. The recipe for gunpowder is criminalized by having just the knowledge? It didn’t say he did

anything. It didn’t say he was charged with using it or even attempting to use it. Just having the

information, folks. Criminalizing information.

Evan Nappen 05:51

You may say, well, good thing that can’t happen here. Yet, New Jersey is already doing it. Not to this

extreme, but doing it. By banning information that can show, computer information, on how to build a

firearm. On how to make or 3D printed gun. The mere possession of that data. So, don’t think it can’t

happen here to this extreme. It can. Furthermore, he (Gilleard) is being convicted here. This is right

from the article. According to the Chief, because what does it say? Gilleard has chosen not to explain

or defend the presence of the recipe. Oh, we have this little thing in America called the Fifth

Amendment, a right. You have no obligation to explain crap in America. You don’t have to explain a

thing. If you want to have the recipe for gunpowder, you can have the recipe for gunpowder. You don’t

have to explain why you have it. Can you imagine this is what these people live under in that police

state? It is insane.

Page – 2 – of 10Evan Nappen 07:06

And yet we are right on the fringes now of suffering under the same fate. We already see examples of

it, just not to this extreme. We’re seeing the weaponization of our justice system against gun owners.

We’re seeing the abuses. Let me just tell you, it’s outrageous. But you know, there’s a lot of good

reason to have the recipe for gunpowder. Plenty of good reasons. Maybe you want to make your own

gunpowder for muzzle loading. So what? Maybe you want to be a prepper? In case this stuff one day

hits a fan. Maybe you want to make it. There’s plenty of lawful reasons you may want to make

gunpowder. I mean, but you don’t have to have an obligation to explain it. And maybe you don’t want to

make it, but you just want to know how, in case you ever do. Imagine that? Or maybe you want it

because you want to write a novel, or you want to write a book, or you want to understand the

mechanics of it. Who cares? Knowledge is knowledge. It’s one of the things about having that First

Amendment. It’s supposed to protect. And you know, there’s a lot of really fascinating information out

there that as gun owners and folks that want to protect their rights and want to prep and prepare, there

is really a lot of books out there that, essentially, they try to suppress, but they can’t, because we have

the First Amendment right.

Teddy Nappen 08:38

I will say it, this also kind of reminds me. There was, I think, it was a Supreme Court case where, I think

it was a newspaper that put out how to make an atomic bomb. That was their whole and it was a very

famous. I’m trying to remember the name, but it was the push where they basically outlined how to do

it. And then they went after the newspaper. (https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/united-states-v-

progressive-inc-w-d-wis/) And the argument, one of the arguments, was it seemed highly unrealistic for

someone to create an atomic bomb. So, I don’t know if they would ever try to use that and say, well, it’s

really realistic because it’s super easy. So, I don’t know if that would at least protect or provide some

safeguards.

Evan Nappen 09:20

The hard part, of course, is getting the uranium. Except, if you remember from Back to the Future, the

Libyans, right? The Libyans. Because they had it. But what this is, yeah. So, I mean, the science of

building an atomic bomb even is known. It is out there, but, you know, doing it is a whole other thing.

And anyway, I’m not even talking about weapons of mass destruction. We’re just talking about good old

gunpowder here. Just gunpowder and criminalizing knowledge. Years in prison for simply having the

recipe for gunpowder. I mean, that’s just insane, if you think about it. But yet, New Jersey is not that far

from that. And that’s the scary part. It really is. I mean, they have, there are laws on the books now in

New Jersey that regulate firearm information. Regulate it to the degree of what you can literally have

and download and possess in that data form. Now, so far, they haven’t extended it to printed material.

And of course, when you have a printed book, it’s not in data form. Now, you can, of course, go online,

and you can find all this information online very easily. How to make gunpowder like right there in wiki

How. All the steps right in wiki How. Everything you need to know to make gunpowder right there, in

easy to read, easy to understand steps.

Evan Nappen 10:52

But there were books that have been prevalent out there. Probably some of the best books were the

“Improvised Munitions: Black Books”. Now, keep in mind, these books were originally made by the U.S.

Page – 3 – of 10Government, the Frankfurt Arsenal. Desert Publications reprinted them, and they put them out. Desert

Publications are probably the best versions of the Frankfurt Arsenal Government manuals, and these

were “Improvised Munitions: Black Books”. They literally tell you how to make gunpowder, how to make

primers, how to make guns, how to make explosives, how to make everything, all that. Everything’s in

those books. How to do it, how to do it by improvising to make them. This is U.S. Government material

out there because it’s not copyright. It can be reprinted and put out there because the Government

doesn’t have a copyright on what they do. And this is information that is and may be of interest to

preppers. I mean, if you’ve never looked at the Black Books, they’re really cool. They’re really

interesting and fascinating. And they should be. They were designed so that, if our forces were in

countries and jurisdictions and such where weapons weren’t readily available, that you could train, you

know, the folks fighting with us to fight the enemy and how to make these things.

Evan Nappen 12:19

I remember way back in college. When I wrote a column in college, I took a page out of the Black Book

that showed how to build. This is way back. We’re talking probably over, well over, 40 years ago now,

folks. I took a page out of the Black Book, the arsenal, the Frankfurt Arsenal Black Book, the

Government FM right on it that showed how you make a nine millimeter pistol out of a pipe and wood.

And it was a Government information on how to do it with illustrations. And we printed it in the college

newspaper and wrote the best argument against gun control, because, look, you could always make a

gun. And needless to say, that did cause a ruckus that that was printed, but there it is. It’s information.

It’s information.

Evan Nappen 13:05

And now what’s interesting about that statement that I made as an editorial decades ago in college is

actually proving out to be true. Because today, with the advent of all the printing and 3D printing, and

do it yourself, and improvised guns that can become just as effective and made as normal guns. The

gun rights oppressionists are freaking out because it defeats their plan of disarmament, right, doesn’t

it? So, isn’t that what the ultimate idea was, anyway, behind it? So, this is what they’re trying to

suppress. They don’t want the ability to have guns. No less guns that can be made by individuals and

individuals being able to fend and protect themselves. They want to require that the only gun you can

possess is made by a manufacturer in America that they can regulate and control and register and

know. But does that really add to our freedom? I don’t think it does. I think the idea of being free is

Government not having that control. Not having that knowledge. Not knowing. That’s what becomes a

check on the tyranny, and that’s what our Founding Fathers envisioned when they put in our Second

Amendment.

Evan Nappen 13:24

I mean, look at what’s going on in the UK. Look at not only the crushing of their rights, but the crushing

of the soul of their country. Look at what is going on there. You can see what these policies are leading

to. It’s leading to a place I wouldn’t want to live in, that’s for sure. And yet, New Jersey isn’t that far

behind in reality. So, the fight is on. The fight is on for our rights. But if you want to protect yourself, why

not have information that you have, that you want to keep? Just in case. It’s good to have information.

Information, knowledge, is power, as they say, and there are a lot of sources and resources out there

Page – 4 – of 10for you to have the knowledge. And it’s something that is, in effect, part of our First Amendment rights

as well as our Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 15:12

And let me tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a indoor range in Lakewood. It is

the range where Teddy and I shoot, and where we get our training. WeShoot is a fantastic place. Make

sure you pay it a visit. WeShoot is located in Lakewood, conveniently off the Parkway, right there in

Central Jersey. You know, these ranges are our resources. These are great resources. We need a

place to shoot. If you don’t have a place to shoot, it is hard to exercise your rights. They are a premier

provider of that very resource that we need. They have fantastic bargains and deals, too. They have all

the best stuff in their pro shop and the greatest instructors. And I’m not just saying that. I’m a fan and a

customer, and so is Teddy. We love it there, and we want to give our highest recommendation to

WeShoot. You can check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. Make sure you pay them a visit. You’ll be

glad you did, and they’ll become your new favorite range. I can assure you of that.

Evan Nappen 16:22

And we are knee deep in a big fight in New Jersey. Unfortunately, as you know, the Republican Jack

Ciattarelli did not succeed in winning. And, of course, that is depressing for us. Because in New Jersey,

it means we’re still going to be subject to the oppressionists, to those that have an agenda to oppress

our Second Amendment. So, that means we have to fight even harder. That means that we have to be

even more vigilant. It is not time to give up. It is time to fight harder, and the way you fight harder is

through your State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle Pistol Clubs. In unity, there’s

strength. The Association is fighting on multiple fronts, not just the political in terms of elections, but

also the legal. They’re in the courts challenging the laws as we speak. We are part of a number of

lawsuits challenging the ban on assault firearms, on the Carry Killer law and large capacity magazines.

There are lawsuits throughout the country. The Association is a part of a number of these critical

lawsuits to New Jersey. This is major for us to have this group defending us, and you need to be a part

of it. This is how we’re going to see the change.

Evan Nappen 17:59

And believe it or not, as depressing as it is that we were not successful in changing the governorship to

a governorship of New Jersey that actually supports and defends the Second Amendment, we still are

making progress. We’re making progress judicially, and we have the Supreme Court now having taken

two cases that will be decided, two, not just one, but two Second Amendment cases, and we’re going to

see even more. And these are the groups that are behind these lawsuits to help expand our rights and

expand our Second Amendment. So, make sure that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle

& Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC). Their website is anjrpc.org. You’ll receive their news alerts and email alerts,

and you’ll be able to take action and be aware of the shenanigans taking place down in Trenton.

Evan Nappen 19:00

I also want to remind you to make sure you own a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the

Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages, with 120 topics, all question and answer. I will be

shortly putting out an update, because we’re going to be facing some laws that I expect to proceed.

We’ve got a big fight on our hands, and it’s going to be pretty bad if these laws do pass. So, brace

Page – 5 – of 10yourselves and make sure you protect yourselves now. New Jersey’s gun laws are an insane matrix of

which many traps are out there for law-abiding citizens to be turned into criminals, and you want to

learn how to navigate that system. I’ve written this book for you to do that very thing. So, go to

EvanNappen.com and get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law. EvanNappen.com. You’ll be glad you

did. And when you do, scan the code on the front, and you will get into our free, private subscriber

base. You’ll get updates, and you will also be able to access the 2025 Comprehensive Update that

includes a standalone chapter on “sensitive places”. Really good stuff, important stuff. So, Teddy, what

do you have for us today in Press Checks?

Teddy Nappen 20:29

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free. And look, we had the big election night. Fine. So, I

thought maybe a nice palette cleanser would be good. So, I checked out our good buddies at The

Trace to see what latest insanity they’re trying to pump out and convince people of. And I found one

that I couldn’t, I had to reread the title, because I thought it was, I thought it was a, I thought it was a

Babylon B, to be very honest. How do you prepare kids for possible school shooting without

traumatizing them? (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/10/school-shooter-drills-trauma-safety/) Yeah, yeah.

So, to give you a little bit of, anyone who went to school, you know, the shelter in place. You know, get

down and go under the desk. The very classic, you know, move to the corner. They are now looking at

trying to find other means without traumatizing the children. This is their focus. And this is an article by

Chip Brownlee.

Teddy Nappen 21:36

Proponents say the drills teach situational awareness and can save lives. But research is far from clear

on whether the drills actually make students safer in a real emergency. Huh? Wonder if there’s other

solutions that could be done to help stop school shooters. Hmm. Moving on. What experts seem to all

agree upon is the drills have potential to traumatize students rather than empower them, especially

when the school uses realistic simulations like fake gunfire or deception. I remember going through

school. I didn’t hear my principal firing off a blank gun as he’s wandering through the school, but the

utter insanity that these people come up with. They report that active shooter drills can still be

especially difficult for students, teachers, and staff who experience violence in the home. Oh, yes,

gotta, gotta. That’s the bigger one. You see them writing about that and where we got to deal with. This

is their push again. Red flag alert. Red flag alert. This is their violence in the home. They always like to

go for that instead of addressing the actual issue, which is, I don’t know, school shootings.

Teddy Nappen 23:01

I mean, things like actual security. You mean something like that, like actual security in a school.

Imagine that. Imagine having that. Imagine arming the teachers.

Teddy Nappen 23:01

But, you know, and as they go in from there, they go through following up messages from texts. About

20% of the students feel the drills made them scared. Thirteen percent feel that they were stressed or

anxious. Huh? During an “active school shooting”, they may feel anxious. And this is the one bit that I

absolutely, what really takes it away for me. The answer they say, according to, we don’t really know

what makes drills effective. They admit it. They have no answer. They try to say like, oh, some schools

Page – 6 – of 10say we need to have sit downs. Other wide variety of after schools defined, carry them out. Have

communications with this kid. Have simple classroom conversations without addressing the actual

school shootings. Throughout the article. I mean.

Teddy Nappen 23:56

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 23:56

Oh, did you ever talk about arming the teachers, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 23:56

Oh, thank you for bringing that up, because I certainly did. I actually wrote a paper in my high school,

and my teacher was aghast at the very idea of me suggesting he be armed during an active school

shooting.

Evan Nappen 24:36

How dare you suggest that a teacher be armed?

Teddy Nappen 24:39

Yeah, it’s one of those where I’m very much disgusted. And funny enough, I even found this from “Get

Safe and Sound.com”. The armed guards and school statistics, which, by the way, in 2023 at least 60%

of them have one security staff and one armed officer. And for high schools, it’s 82.1% have at least

one or more armed security on their campuses. So, very clearly, there is a push for armed security,

actual solutions. But I will give Texas credit. This comes from the Texas Tribune.

(https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/07/texas-school-marshal-program/) The Texas Republicans

want to arm school teachers, and they actually created what’s called the School Marshal Program to

allow educators to carry weapons inside. This is the heart of the issue, and this actually addresses the

facts. Unfortunately, only a certain amount of districts actually wanted to participate in the program

where they broke down the numbers. It was just only 84 of their school districts out of the 1200 opted

into the program, and there’s only 361 actually became licensed under the program, versus the 9000

on campuses. So, this is the bigger issue. There needs to be a culture of arming yourself to defend.

You need, the teachers need to see this as like, let me be there to defend my school. Defend the

children. Actually willing and there. And it’s that culture that in our country where guns are part of our

culture, that’s a fact of life. They need to realize that. Instead of just being the victim and running

potential stressful drills, in their view, actually arming themselves to defend their workplace and defend

the kids. So, it’s quite disgusting.

Evan Nappen 26:35

And all this can somehow get traced to a story by a single author, huh? Way back. Who was it, Teddy,

that helped inspire, who helped inspire these school shooters? Who was the number one inspiration?

Teddy Nappen 26:56

Oh, that’s very simple. Stephen King, of course.

Page – 7 – of 10Evan Nappen 26:59

Stephen King.

Teddy Nappen 27:00

Rage by Stephen King.

Evan Nappen 27:01

Rage. Yeah. His book, Rage.

Teddy Nappen 27:04

Yeah, which he’s already crashing out online after all the other insane.

Evan Nappen 27:08

Now, when he wrote Rage, he had a different name, right? What was his name?

Teddy Nappen 27:11

Oh, yeah. I forget the name, but.

Evan Nappen 27:13

Bachmann.

Teddy Nappen 27:14

Something like that. Bachman, or something.

Evan Nappen 27:16

Richard Bachman.

Teddy Nappen 27:17

Yeah. He was just. Yeah, he’s like, he knew what he was writing. But of course, he tried to hide it. And

by the way, he pulled that book off of the shelves after admitting it has nothing to do with school

shootings. Even though he pulled it off the shelves. So

Speaker 1 27:20

But yet, how many of these school shooters have been found with that book, Rage?

Teddy Nappen 27:38

I remember a good chunk of them. We could pull back the article when we first talked about it, but this

is the other part I will address. And you know, this is catching on because, of course, now Every Town

jumped on it. Every Town Research. (https://everytownresearch.org/report/arming-teachers-risks/)

Arming the teachers introduces new risk into schools. Where they list off their reasonings. Teachers

cannot and should not be expected to perform their job as a trained law enforcement officer. Okay, first

off, the police are doing, what? Shooting about 50 rounds for their qualifications? Are you? Yeah, that,

that training. You mean if teachers can’t go to the range and do 50 rounds.

Page – 8 – of 10Evan Nappen 28:21

Or just being taught. Hey, this is very important training for this particular situation. They don’t have to

go out and be law enforcement officers, which can require training in many different areas. They just

need to be trained for this one scenario and how to deal with it. And you know that’s the problem here

with The Trace and with the anti-Second Amendment crowd, is that they constantly reject actual

solutions to push their agenda. No matter what. So, they can’t say ever that having a gun would

actually be helpful. Can’t ever say that. Can’t ever admit that. Nope, nope, nope. Do every kind of song

and dance and work around they possibly can come up with to ever say that actually having a firearm

was a good idea. They never do that.

Evan Nappen 29:18

So, this is why you see these false arguments come out of them. These, these laughable statements

come out of them when the reality of what is demanded in the face of violence is violence. They want to

call it “gun violence” as a pejorative, but guns themselves are not violent. It is people who are violent,

and violence can be good and violence can be bad. The way you stop bad violence is with good

violence, and that’s a reality of a violent world, okay? There’s good and there’s bad, and if you refuse to

acknowledge it, if you refuse to admit it, then what you end up with is good people suffering instead of

being protected. And that’s what we see happening, and that’s what they help to continue. They

continue with their lies that end up costing people lives, because real solutions then don’t get

implemented. And that’s the real shame of it. Because they just politicize it.

Teddy Nappen 30:30

And to really dive it into the politics of it, the American Federation of Teachers and the National

Education Association, the teachers unions, they are the ones who are pushing back and saying, don’t

arm them. So, you see the culture right there. It’s the elitist of the unions, all the heads of the

administrators, these ones, because they know they want to keep having mass shootings, because

that’s their blood dance. That’s the only way they will ever win. They ever push for gun control is they

want more mass shootings. And that’s a fact.

Evan Nappen 31:04

It kind of seems that they do. They look forward to it for political because they want, you know, they

want nothing more than to have some other rallying point at whatever the cost may be. It’s pretty

disgusting. All it takes is any act that becomes newsworthy, and within seconds, they’re blaming guns.

Even if guns aren’t involved, they’re blaming guns. They just jump on it any chance they get. Everything

is just a political vehicle to try to oppress our rights, and we have to stand up and say, you’re wrong.

And that’s why we’re here doing this very podcast. One of the other reasons we’re doing this podcast is

because we like to talk about the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are expensive

lessons that individuals learn, that you can now learn for the cheap. You get to learn them for free

because you’re listening to Gun Lawyer. So, Teddy, what is this week’s GOFU? You know what the

GOFU is. What is it?

Teddy Nappen 32:26

The GOFU is about.

Page – 9 – of 10Evan Nappen 32:33

When individuals fill out applications and what happens?

Teddy Nappen 32:40

Oh, yeah, it’s falsifications. Yeah, that’s always the big issue for people. Don’t ever falsify on the form.

Evan Nappen 32:50

We run into this in practice often, and it’s something that we just want to make sure our listeners are

really aware of. When you fill out a gun application, make sure your answers are accurate and true.

Don’t just guess. Because falsification of the application, if you put the wrong answer, even though it

wasn’t intentional, even though it wasn’t intentional, will lead to your license being denied, and you are

exposed to criminal charges of falsification, a third degree crime in New Jersey, up to five years in State

Prison. Take this application process seriously, and make sure your answers are absolutely correct. If

you have questions about a certain question, find out in advance how it needs to be properly answered.

We get falsification issues all the time coming into the office where individuals just innocently make a

mistake. They thought this. They didn’t understand the question, and it is extremely unforgiving in New

Jersey. Please be extra careful. Don’t become a GOFU when you’re filling out your gun applications. If

you have any issues or questions, get them positively answered in advance. We can’t emphasize that

enough, folks.

Evan Nappen 34:35

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 34:47

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 10 – of 10

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E263_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 262-The Ballot is Stronger than the BulletAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 262 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

New Jersey governor’s race, Second Amendment, gun rights, voting importance, anti-gun

organizations, NRA rating, gun laws, self-defense, AI security issues, Glock discontinuation, firearm

safety, gun ownership, election integrity, gun rights advocacy, firearm legislation.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:16

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:18

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:20

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, I’m happy to be back.

Teddy Nappen 00:26

You’re alive.

Evan Nappen 00:27

I’m alive. I had a nice getaway to Italy and other countries in the Mediterranean where I was able to

walk where the ancients walked and enjoy that, that area. Man, I’ll tell you one thing they got right there

is espresso. Oh, boy! Do they have espresso down right. I love that. But anyway, I also came back with

a little cold, as you can tell. So, I’m gonna be talking a little bit funny today.

Teddy Nappen 01:05

Apparelty, you smoked too many Cuban cigars.

Evan Nappen 01:12

Well, gotta do what you gotta do. Luckily, it didn’t happen till I got back. So, yeah, we did go up to

Mount Aetna there, and both the mountain and I were smoking. That was pretty good. You know,

there’s a very interesting and mind expanding things that I’ll be talking about on the show, particularly

regarding weapons and things happening from the ancients that apply to today. And I’m sure we’ll get

into some of those things in later shows. But today, it’s very important, because the ballot is stronger

than the bullet. And do you know who said that? I’ll tell you who said that. Abraham Lincoln said the

ballot is stronger than the bullet, and he’s right, it is. We are now dealing with that very scenario in New

Jersey, because we have this critical Governor’s race taking place between (Jack) Ciattarelli (R) and

Page – 1 – of 10(Mikie) Sherril (D). And it couldn’t be any starker in the differences when it comes to the Second

Amendment.

Evan Nappen 01:12

Yeah, that didn’t help. That didn’t help. But hey.

Teddy Nappen 01:14

Too many Cuban cigars.

Evan Nappen 02:36

The Democrat, Sherrill, not surprisingly, is, of course, a Second Amendment oppressionist. You know,

looking to oppress our rights to continue in the Murphy tradition of Second Amendment oppression.

And on the other side, we have Ciattarelli, who is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. We

can see a night and day difference. So, in case you didn’t know, it is critical to get out and vote. Please

make sure that you vote. I know you hear it all the time and maybe get sick of hearing it. But I cannot

emphasize how important this opportunity is. We now have a chance to turn New Jersey around. We’ve

been suffering oppression under Murphy for years and now is an opportunity to turn that around. And

let me tell you, we have a great shot at doing it.

Evan Nappen 03:46

First of all, you need to know that Sherril, the Democrat, has been endorsed by every major anti-gun,

you know, gun rights oppression organization, including Every Town for Gun Safety. Yeah, right. Moms

Demand Action, Giffords pack, and the Brady pack, just to name some of the folks that are backing her

candidacy. And that should tell you just about everything you need to know. She’s come out and made

statements about folks carrying firearms. Finding it unconscionable in terms of untrained and

unchecked individuals carrying. Well, that is hardly what New Jersey is. As a matter of fact, it’s the

opposite. They are thoroughly and completely vetted and trained. In which, in order to even get a permit

to carry, you have to pass CCARE and prove your proficiency and training along with knowledge of use

of force. All of the above. So, she has no clue other than following the oppressionists’ agenda, and she

has, not surprisingly, earned an “F” rating from the NRA Political Victory Fund. And NRA has declared

her a gun ban extremist.

Evan Nappen 05:33

And on the other side of the coin, we have Jack (Ciattarelli), generally, who is the opposite. And

remember, it’s not just his position as Governor, but he also then can have his Attorney General. And

we can get rid of Platkin and his crew of gun rights oppressionists that focus on litigating firearms out of

existence and pursuing every cockamamie scheme they can come up with to try to limit our

Constitutional rights. This is critical. You know, about four years ago or so, when Ciattarelli ran, he only

lost by about 84,000 votes, and he is coming on strong now. He has tremendous momentum, and I

believe that the gun rights issue will be one of the major things that can help put him over the top. If gun

owners would not be apathetic and actually get their asses out and vote, we can help to take our rights

back. It is critical. Please, please, please. Make sure that you do your part. This is an opportunity. How

many times do I hear gun owners say to me, what can I do to help? What can I do to fight? What can I

do? What can I do? What can I do, like that? That’s a good sentiment to want to know what you can do.

Page – 2 – of 10Well, I’m telling you right now something you can do. You can vote. You can vote the good guys in.

Exercise that precious right to vote.

Evan Nappen 07:37

And look, folks, the Republicans have come a long way. With the fantastic leadership by President

Trump and with the fantastic work done to try to preserve voter integrity, to stop the steal, to stop the

fraud, President Trump was successful and probably the ultimate comeback politically of anyone ever

in the history of the world. I mean, it’s just amazing what that man overcame. But he didn’t do it alone.

He did it by focusing on where the problems were, and part of those problems was in our election itself.

And we are now going to have monitors from the Justice Department trying to make sure this election is

as free from fraud as possible, and the Republicans have a keen understanding of the games that

Democrats play. So, this is where your vote not only matters but can really count. It can really count.

This is going to be critical, and the statement it will make when Ciattarelli wins will be beyond New

Jersey. It will also show that the Democrat Party is in its death throes, that their progressive liberal

insanity is finally being recognized by folks, even in so-called Blue States, like New Jersey. And not

being accepted. Being rejected, straight out. It is critical in both the big picture and in the small picture.

Evan Nappen 09:37

And in the picture related to what happens in New Jersey. Because, folks, there are bills pending right

now that have gone halfway through, halfway through, that will be devastating to our Second

Amendment rights. There are so many of these horrible laws that need to be repealed. Laws that are so

extreme which we’ve discussed on this show. We have to make it happen. This is that golden

opportunity. And just think of how amazing it will be to have at the same time, a Republican President

and a Republican Governor that are both dedicated to defending, not oppressing, our Second

Amendment rights. So, please do your part.

Teddy Nappen 10:35

One other thing I would highlight for that is that not just what the Governor can do, but a Governor can

appoint people. You know, like Murphy appointed Platkin. The attack dog who’s been weaponizing his

position to attack our rights. Going after gun shops. Going after gun companies. They’ve been going

after everything they can. Where you are the top cop in that position. So, if Jack (Ciattarelli) gets in,

we’ll get someone who is not a Platkin and won’t be the attacker on our rights.

Evan Nappen 11:16

And actually, you’re right, Teddy. And not only that, the Attorney General can then promulgate Attorney

General Opinions and other legal decrees that are within their power to expand our rights, to clarify

limitations, and to advise law enforcement throughout New Jersey about how they need to treat our

rights and permitting and all these issues that we’re fighting now. It will open up that area greatly. This

is a tremendous opportunity here, and it’s one of the blessings of living in a republic. We get this right to

vote. So, don’t ignore it. The ballot is more powerful than the bullet, and with the ballot, we can increase

the power behind our bullets. In other words, our ability to exercise our rights. So, it’s critical, folks.

Critical, critical, critical.

Evan Nappen 12:34

Page – 3 – of 10Hey, I also want to mention an interesting little news bit that you may not have heard. This is from UW

news. More U.S. adults are carrying loaded handguns daily.

(https://www.washington.edu/news/2022/11/16/more-u-s-adults-carrying-loaded-handguns-daily-study-

finds/) There you go. And that’s not a surprise, I’m sure, to most of us. But the numbers are kind of cool

from this article, and I just wanted to share them with you. The number of U.S. adult handgun owners

carrying loaded handguns doubled from 2015 to 2019. Now that’s just to 2019. I bet it’s more than

doubled yet again. But even then, it doubled. This was based on the National Firearm Survey (NFS) of

U.S. adults. And looking at their surveys, they found that from 2015 that it’s up 9 million and 6 million

carry every day, twice as many as carried in 2015. This is really great news, because the more folks out

there are carrying, the safer we are. And they’re, of course, saying that less restrictive carrying

regulations. Yeah, we have the tremendous growth of “shall issue” permits. We have the Bruen

decision now, and we have Constitutional carry.

Evan Nappen 14:11

We have actually crime that is been gone crazy in the cities that gets folks wanting to protect

themselves. It actually, in these hot spots, because of how the news plays up the crime in the hot spots,

right? Because, you know, blood always sells in the news media. It actually also is encouraging to get

people to want to defend themselves and have the means to do so. Some of the other findings in the

report that are interesting is apparently seven in 10 handgun owners say they carry a loaded handgun

as protection against another person. Dwarfing the number who said they carry for protection against

an animal or for work. Yep, so, the overwhelming majority of carry, seven out of 10, is for self-defense

against bad guys. Now, why should we even be shocked by that? I’m not. Of course it is. That’s why

good guys have got to carry. I mean, come on. They also found that four in five handgun owners who

reported carrying were male, three in four were white, and the majority were between 18 and 44. Now,

gee, white and male. That’s interesting. Why are they? Why are they checking into that?

Evan Nappen 15:54

Well, you know, if you look deeper behind their approach of trying to make it out that it’s some kind of

white supremacy thing, which is, of course, the undercurrent to that little stat. The reality of it is that the

institutionalized racism that’s present is a discouragement to blacks from carrying. That’s the reason.

And we need to address that, because the more folks that carry, the better. Any law-abiding citizen,

responsible, law-abiding citizen that carries makes you and me both safer. So, I think we’ll see even

way bigger numbers if we had more up-to-date studies than going back to 2019. But that itself shows

you that the trend is going in the right way. It’s going in the direction.

Teddy Nappen 16:50

You also gotta look at the factor of Covid. As the 2019.

Evan Nappen 16:56

Yeah.

Teddy Nappen 16:56

Page – 4 – of 10Where everyone gets locked up and, you know, everyone can’t go outside. You want to defend your

home and need something to carry. I need something to defend myself. So, that’s another one that

blew up in the Left’s face.

Evan Nappen 17:12

And it did. It did blow up, and it’s continuing to. As a matter of fact, though, there’s, you know, things

coming up with technology. We’re talking about AI, and we’re talking about other impacts. Well, I just

want to point this little story out here that I saw. This is from Cam Edwards at BearingArms. “What

happens when AI thinks a bag of chips is a gun?”

(https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2025/10/27/what-happens-when-ai-bag-chips-a-gun-n1230388)

How about that, folks? When a bag of chips is a gun. That’s right. Because that’s what happened to

Taki Allen, who was hanging out with his friends after football practice at Kenwood High School in

Baltimore County. Police rolled up and confronted him at gunpoint about a pistol they thought he was

carrying. He was placed in handcuffs and searched, but no gun was found. Instead, what he had was a

bag of Doritos that he was holding and that triggered a weapons alert by the AI powered security

system. How nice. So, apparently he was just holding a bag of Doritos, and AI registered it as a gun. I

don’t think they have the firearm-seasoned Doritos yet. It’s just a situation where you have this

incredible reaction. Luckily, no one was hurt, but you can well see nervous law enforcement drawing a

gun down on this kid. I’m glad law enforcement didn’t mistake his bag of Doritos for a firearm. So, keep

in mind that these AI systems are going to be emplaced in other areas, and I’m sure we’re going to see

growth of that. We’re probably going to see more and more of the problems, the glitches from these

systems that are going to lead to folks getting injured and of unreasonable searches and seizures

taking place. I can well see that in the future. So, we better be aware of it. But next time with your bag

of Doritos, beware that you may be triggering AI into thinking you’re going to do harm with a firearm.

How crazy is that?

Evan Nappen 19:58

Hey, I want to tell you about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a range, an indoor range, in

Lakewood where Teddy and I both shoot. We get our training there. We love WeShoot, and so will you.

WeShoot has some pretty cool stuff they’re talking about and that they’re offering. You can go check

out at the WeShoot pro-shop. One is the Walther PDP Pro-X and that’s their newest evolution in

Walther performance. With a full-size feel, a top-tier trigger and modular features for serious shooters.

Then you have the Tavor X95. We love the Tavor X95. We call it the Hebrew hammer, right? It’s a

compact bull pup, chambered in 5.56, built for CQP power with Israeli military roots, and it has that

wonderful futuristic function. Then you have the classic Smith & Wesson Model 36. That’s the good ol’e

snub nose .38 special in the classic Model 36. The old J-frame that we love. We call it our pocket

rocket. They have a nice Model 36 there for you to check out, made by Smith, just a great classic gun.

You can also get your training at WeShoot. You can get your certifications, and you have a great range

to practice. Go right there to WeShoot in Lakewood. Check out their website at weshootusa.com. They

have beautiful photography, and they’re just wonderful place. You will love it. They’re a great resource

for New Jersey gun owners right there, conveniently off the Parkway in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 22:07

Page – 5 – of 10Let me also mention our good friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org.

ANJRPC has been hard at work fighting for our rights. They’re in the courts as we speak. They’re

standing guard in the legislature with a full-time paid lobbyist. They are fighting as well. Getting the

word out about voting. We have to do it. We’ve got to get out there and vote. The Association is there

serving you as New Jerseyans, protecting our rights. You need to be a member of the Association of

New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They’ll send you out great emails about alerts with easy steps you can

take to make a difference. But they also send you a wonderful printed newsletter, greatest newsletter

out there in the state. They’re the NRA affiliate, official state affiliate, and the largest pro-gun group in

New Jersey, pro- Second Amendment rights. So, make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org and join today.

You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 23:30

And let me also not forget to shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of

Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, in a question-and-answer format. It’s used every

day by hundreds and hundreds of folks. It will help you to keep your guns, keep your gun rights and

stay out of jail. New Jersey, as you know, is insane, and I try to make the insanity somewhat

understandable. So, you can stay within the crazy matrix of New Jersey’s gun laws and not fall into the

traps. Not be a GOFU. So, make sure you get a copy of my book and scan the front cover for the QR

right there, so you can get the free updates. The Comprehensive 2025 Update is there waiting for you,

including a standalone chapter of where you can and cannot carry under New Jersey’s Carry Killer bill.

What’s valid and what isn’t at the moment. So, get yourself a copy today. Go to EvanNappen.com,

EvanNappen.com, and make sure you own the big orange book. So, Teddy, what do you have for us

today?

Teddy Nappen 24:55

Well, as we know, Press Checks are always free and. And I wanted to. One of the big things that kind

of was circulating, if everyone’s been paying attention, about what’s been going on with Glock as

California issued their ban. And this comes from BearingArms, our friends at BearingArms, from Cam

Edwards. Gun World is buzzing as Glocks decision to discontinue dozens of its models.

(https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2025/10/21/gun-world-buzzing-glock-discontinue-dozens-

models-n1230326) It has been kind of the big shake up.

Evan Nappen 25:28

They basically got rid of their entire line, except for the slim compacts like the 43 and those guns. So,

they’re no longer going to produce all those Glocks, and they’re coming out with what, the new V

series?

Teddy Nappen 25:45

Correct. This was given to them by one of the several Glock distributors began reporting on Monday

afternoon that the company will stop shipping all Gen 3s, Gen 5s, and Gen 5 MOS models as of

November 30, and we’ll be rolling out the new V series December of this year. This is from a video of

GlockShop’s (Lenny) McGill.

Evan Nappen 26:12

Page – 6 – of 10Oh yeah. Lenny McGill. Well, you know, the Glock has been such a favorite and so reliable a firearm.

It’s like the number one, probably the number one handgun in America at the moment.

Teddy Nappen 26:26

Mitch Rapp would agree.

Evan Nappen 26:28

Hmm, I’m sure he would. I know that there’s, like, I always say about a Glock. There’s a really good and

really bad thing about a Glock. What’s really good about a Glock is, when you pull the trigger, it goes

bang. What’s really bad about a Glock is, when you pull the trigger it goes bang. In other words, there’s

no manual safeties on it, okay? So, your safety is in between your ears. Glock is super reliable, but

make sure you’re always very conscientious about your trigger and following all the rules of safety

when it comes to a Glock. They’re great guns, but there’s no mechanical safeties that are going to

come to your aid if you get stupid. So, be cautious with Glocks at all times. But I love them.

Teddy Nappen 27:28

Yeah, and I will note from the article, the company has not shown any ties to the anti-gun efforts to their

change of the of their line up with the new models. But the timing and their response is very suspect of

that, and they highlight the issue. Growing use of illegal switches that convert semi-automatic pistols

into machine guns. Oh, but it seems like that’s kind of their response and.

Evan Nappen 28:01

Well, wait, let’s talk about those. So, those are the Glock switches, and they’re able to be very easily

printed with 3d printers for less than a buck, I guess, in materials. And they’ll go on the back of the

Glock. They’ll slide in, and then you can switch a semi-auto Glock so that it’ll go full auto. And that’s

what these Glock switches do. And they’re out there because they’re so easy to make and so plentiful.

Apparently, the understanding we have is that the V series will not be able to be converted with a Glock

switch. Now, I don’t have more technical information than that. Maybe they’re just going to go with like a

pro-trigger or something. But normally, the way these things go is any technological change that gets

made, then somebody invents a technological way around it. So, I don’t know. But for now, the idea, I’m

sure, is to undercut this litigation and legislation as part of the announcement of their new line. Now this

new line may also have things like MOS on all the models as a standard feature. Who knows what

other things it may have. It may be enhancements that may make it better, but then again, maybe not.

We’ve seen that before, Teddy, where manufacturers have changed their model guns and the old

models become much more desirable than the new models. I’m not saying that’s going to happen here,

for sure, but we’ve seen it before.

Teddy Nappen 29:48

Correct. And that’s one of my points I always try to make when it comes to the Press Checks. I find the

best way to look at things is to look as you can see, they always try to push this in the guise of “safety”.

And one of the things that we want to highlight is from for the 1911 Series 70 vs the Series 80. This

comes from PewPew Tactical. (https://www.pewpewtactical.com/1911-series-70-series-80/) The giant

change that they did.

Page – 7 – of 10Evan Nappen 30:19

Well, yeah. Well, you see, there is a more of a desirability, arguably, for Series 70 Colt 1911s versus

Series 80. Because with the 80s, they added a firing pin safety, and they added some changes to the

bushing and what have you. I mean, the Series 80 is still a damn good gun, but there became a

preference and kind of an added, a value added, if you had a Series 70. Still is to this day. A Series 70

is more sought after, arguably. The triggers on a Series 70 were much better because of the design on

the Series 80 to increase, to add in that safety. There’s a little more, not as crisp, etc. Now, you know,

I’m sure with a lot of great gunsmithing, you can get that Series 80 to be real nice, but the Series 70,

plainly has certain things that make it a preference. However, if you have your hammer down on a firing

pin on a Series 70and there’s ammo there, that pin is actually going to push against the primer. So, it

doesn’t have that firing pin safety. And that’s what the Series 80 did. Because, you know, the idea

behind the 1911 is you’re going to carry it cocked and locked. So, the hammer is cocked and then the

safety goes up to lock it. And then on your Series 70, you have two safeties, basically that are

mechanical. You have your thumb safety, and then you have your grip safety. So, you actually have

two mechanical safeties. You’ve got to be gripping it properly, and then click down the thumb safety.

But if you have a round in the chamber and the hammer is down and you don’t have it cocked and

locked, then arguably, there could be some issue there. It’s not a smart way to be carrying a firearm

that is a single action, automatic, semi automatic pistol, single action. That’s what your 1911 is. But

folks love the Series 70. So, there was a more of a desire to have the Series 70. You see, the same

thing with Winchesters, with pre-’64 Winchesters. Particularly the Model 70s, right? I mean, you know,

Teddy, about how.

Teddy Nappen 32:58

Yeah, in comparison. Winchesters prior were more handmade under the Japanese firearm company to

change the manufacturing and more to the factory style that of the Japanese.

Evan Nappen 33:20

I mean, the Winchesters are all good. But the preference, again, became for the firearm that had more

hand work and had some differences in extractor and what have you. So that the premier became the

so-called Pre ’64 Winchesters. It had value added on your Model 70 and other firearms made by

Winchester. So, that’s something that became looked for. Then you see it again with Smith & Wesson,

right? Like we see with Smith. The Hillary hole. So, after that Rose Garden ceremony and they put that

internal lock in the Smith & Wessons, people were not necessarily thrilled about that internal lock, and

there were even reports of issues with it. As soon as you add in these things, you make a gun less

simple, and the more complex it is, the more likelihood you could have an issue that you don’t want. So,

the new Smiths became less preferred than the old Smiths, and that’s still a thing. But nowadays you

can even get the Smiths without the Hillary hole. They’ll offer many of their revolvers because people

just don’t want that internal locking device in their guns.

Teddy Nappen 34:41

Yeah, I would say that’s the better comparison, is that to the what’s going on with Glock and the Hillary

hole, because that all came out of the creation over the whole deal with Columbine. And it was

cowtowing, which, again, you never appease crocodiles, and this is trying to combat the “safety issues

of firearms”.

Page – 8 – of 10Evan Nappen 35:08

Oh, yeah, that was the famous Rose Garden ceremony with Smith. And then, as a matter of fact, there

was a reaction by gun owners, in effect, not to even buy Smith & Wessons after that. People were so

disgusted with them giving in to the Clinton, to the Clinton Gambit, and their sales took a hit. It was

viewed at that time as somewhat of a sellout. Now, I’m not saying Glock is selling out. Okay? There are

realities here of the litigation and the laws that will affect their ability on selling the guns, whether, you

know, those fights can be won down the road or not. When, if they just reinvigorate their line and they

don’t take away the reliability aspect that we all know and love about Glocks, maybe it will be okay. But

Smith & Wesson is an example with what not to do, that’s for damn sure. What not to do with them. And

you still see premier and premiums for the old Marlins, right? JM stamped Marlins get a premium over

the other Marlins. And I know Ruger now makes Marlins, and they make a damn good product. I’m not

saying anything else, but there’s still that premium, that desire for the old ones.

Evan Nappen 36:36

So, we may see that all these pre V model Glocks, pre V models, may themselves have a premium.

And although we see Glocks as plentiful, that may not end up being the case with the V models. It may

go the route of the Series 70 versus Series 80. It may go the route of the Smith Hillary hole versus not,

the pre 64 Winchester. So look, if you have a Glock, I would say the old models, hold on to it for now.

Hold on to it because you may see that there’s a premium to the older generation Glocks. It may very

well happen. We don’t know. Because the new Glocks haven’t come out. And if they do come out and

then there’s issues people are reporting, which could happen, particularly with new models, then there’ll

be a really big demand for the older models. And even if there is no issue, there’ll still be that desire, if

for no other reason than you want to have a Glock that, you know, they wanted you not to have. Even

though you have no intention of ever putting a Glock switch on it. There’s still the factor that you now

have a Glock that ended up being forced into model changes, and you have the old Model.

Evan Nappen 36:48

We’ve seen that happen any number of times. We saw things change, like, for example, with the old

Mac 10 semi-automatic pistol. Right? The Mac 10, now Macs, of course, are assault firearms, boogie

men under New Jersey law. But back when the original Mac came out, it fired from an open bolt, and it

was semi-auto. And then they said, oh, no, you can’t have open bolt semi-autos. It’s got to fire from the

closed bolt because it could get too easily converted. But the open bolts are still legal, and of course,

there’s a premium if you have an open bolt Mac. You see this repeated so many times through the

firearm industry, where the old models have an added value and more desirability. Now, whether or not

that’ll happen with Glock remains to be seen, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we see it, just given the

history of so many other guns and how that very thing has happened.

Evan Nappen 39:07

Hey, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And the reason we talk

about GOFUs is because it’s actual cases of people making mistakes. They can be very expensive,

costly. Cost your freedom, cost your rights, and you don’t want to be a GOFU. So, we like to talk about

them. So, this week’s GOFU has to do with the firearm that you carry. It may seem basic, but I need to

say it. Make sure the gun that you carry is your firearm, your gun. Don’t go and register your spouse’s

Page – 9 – of 10gun. When I say “register”, I mean list it on your carry permit as your carry gun. When it’s not your gun,

don’t do that. Okay? Because it’s a firearm that is somebody else’s. Why are you even handling it? How

can you have been transferred it lawfully? It raises all kinds of questions and all kinds of problems. So,

make sure the guns that you list on your carry permit are actually your firearms. Don’t be a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 40:22

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 40:34

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 10 – of 10

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E262_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 261-Bang or Bong or Maybe Both?Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 261 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court, marijuana, gun laws, Second Amendment, New Jersey, carry permit, sensitive places,

federal court, gun violence, national reciprocity, red flag laws, mental health, gun rights, ammunition,

online sales.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Teddy Nappen 00:15

I’m Teddy Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Now, I promised everyone my father would be back,

and sure enough, he was back. And because he was on vacation, obviously, he got sick, and of course,

he lost his voice. So, unless we wanted him on here, and you know, coughing up a lung and him, you

know, having this turned into an ASMR of him whispering Gun Law, let’s let him recover. Don’t worry.

He’ll more than likely be back next week. Till then, let’s let him rest. But for now, we have some news to

discuss.

Teddy Nappen 00:59

So, the Supreme Court, this comes from the AP News, the Supreme Court is considering whether

people who regularly smoke pot can legally own guns. This comes from an article written by Lindsay

Whitehurst. (https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-marijuana-guns-

e86c342bf248c7822722ad027980b72b) The Supreme Court said Monday that it will consider whether

people who regularly smoke marijuana can legally own guns. Latest firearm case to come since, well,

the Bruen decision. So, I want to highlight the impact, again, the hammer of Bruen, thanks to St. Justice

Thomas, where we are slowly smashing and working our way through the various gun laws. And just to

highlight the fact that, look, you can say what you will about marijuana, okay? It’s not the cure all, but it

does have its benefits. And it’s just so prevalent, but you’ve got to focus on the fact this is about

freedom and not allowing the federal Government to take away people’s rights. Because it’s all over the

place, okay? And that comes up a lot, with a lot of clients. A lot of people are smoking weed. And as my

father publishes and puts out there and has, very much, everyone uses it now as a coined term, “Bang

or Bong. You can’t have both.”

Teddy Nappen 02:17

Well, the Supreme Court heard that, and now they’re going to figure out, can you actually have it? So,

President Donald Trump’s Administration has asked justice to revive the case of the Texas man

charged with a felony because he alleged had a gun in his home and acknowledged he was regular pot

user. The Justice Department appealed after a lower court largely struck down the law barring people

who usually use any illicit illegal drugs from having guns. They argue that the broad law written puts

millions of people at risk with the technical violation. Since at least 20% of Americans have tried pot,

according to the Government health data, about half the states have legalized recreational marijuana,

Page – 1 – of 6but it’s still illegal under federal law. Remember, that. It is still illegal under federal law. Okay? We need

to just remove this as a federal issue, as a federal disqualifier, because it screws people out of their

rights when it shouldn’t. It’s about allowing people, because we want as many people as they can, to be

able to exercise their Second Amendment rights.

Teddy Nappen 03:26

And, quite frankly, this should be removed. They should just remove marijuana as a federal disqualifier.

If there’s any other way they want to carve it out. I’m happy to listen about it, but until then, this is a

prevalent issue. It comes into play a lot for when people are looking to get mental health

expungements. We were just having that from Dr. (John) Edeen, from that exact issue where we form a

lot. If it comes up where you’re formalized your usage of marijuana, you’re screwed out of your gun

rights. And that’s not right. That is not right. People should have access to their firearms. So, it’s very

clearly a big issue, and we’ll see where the Supreme Court lines up on that. My hope is they strike it

out, and we can move on from it.

Teddy Nappen 04:18

I’d like to also talk about our friends here now at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is bursting with pride, as they

are celebrating that Katie Rutherford has officially been named New Jersey State Champion in the

highly competitive service pistol match. And she did it the true WeShoot fashion. Disciplined,

determined and absolutely dialed in. So, congratulations to Katie on her win. WeShoot offers classes

for the CCAR certification so you can get your New Jersey Permit to Carry. WeShoot is a range in

Lakewood, New Jersey. They have a fantastic facility for great training and a great pro shop. They have

all kinds of deals and specials. We love WeShoot. It’s where I go, where my father goes to shoot, and

we got our certifications there. So, just go there and mention Gun Lawyer, and you’ll be treated like

royalty. And if you don’t mention Gun Lawyer, you’ll still be treated like royalty, because they’re the

best. WeShootUSA.com is their website. Beautiful photos. You can see their WeShoot girls posing with

their gorgeous guns. And they’re the guns that they have that you can buy, and then you can have get

great deals, great sales. They’ll not only sell you the gun, but they’ll teach you how to use it effectively.

Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. WeShoot is conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey,

right off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did it.

Teddy Nappen 05:45

I also want to mention the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC just had a case in

the federal court where the Appellate Court gave a mixed win at the moment. But, of course, the fight

isn’t over. We’ll call it a partial victory regarding “sensitive places” in the Carry Killer bill. Essentially

what the status quo is at the moment that has been maintained, in which you can still carry in your

vehicle with the car jacker protection law that has still been enjoined. You can carry concealed and

loaded on your person in your vehicle if you have a New Jersey Carry Permit. That is still enjoined. You

can do it because, remember the Carry Killer Bill tried to prevent it. Also, you can still go on private

property, as long as it’s open to the public and not otherwise a sensitive place. We lost a little a bit in

terms of filming locations, in terms of movie filming, in terms of transport on public transportation. So,

you’re going to have to have your gun cased and unloaded, etc. if you’re going to go riding on the bus

or on a train.

Page – 2 – of 6Teddy Nappen 07:02

However, interestingly, they found that the $200 fee that was a $50 fee portion that goes to the State

was unlawful. It’s unlawful because it went to the VCCB, which is the Victims Crime Compensation

Board. Under the case law, you can not have a fee for licensing not go to actual regulatory activity. That

is the purpose of the fee. So, that portion has been knocked out. Now, the price of a New Jersey Carry

Permit is $150, and if you live in any towns that are refunding, such as Englishtown, which was one of

the first in the start, they were refunding their $150. So, you can actually get your carry permit in New

Jersey, in New Jersey for free. And the fight continues. There’s just one step, as we go, challenging the

Second Amendment oppressionists legislation as they laid upon us. The Association is at the forefront

fighting for your rights. Make sure you are a member of anjrpc.org, anjrpc.org.

Teddy Nappen 08:07

Let me also mention my father’s book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible on New Jersey gun law.

You can get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com. It’ll help you navigate a very

complex course that has been laid out by the gun rights oppressionists who try to trip you up at every

turn, turn you into a criminal, stop you from being a defender and instead into a victim. You need to be

a defender instead of a victim, especially since the police have no duty to protect you, as you now

know. Get the big orange book. Order today. Scan the cover and make sure you get into the private

subscriber database. You’ll get immediate access to the archives, which we update, and that we send

out. Also download the 2025 Comprehensive Update that includes the new standalone chapter on

“sensitive places”, where you can and cannot carry. So, check it out and get your book today.

Teddy Nappen 09:06

All right. So, as we know, Press Checks are always free, and let’s see what the gun rights oppressors

are pushing. We know that we’ve always got to check in on our enemy, that is The Trace, and see what

they’re peddling. And the latest, as I was laughing when I was reading it, from The Trace, by Olga

Pierce. (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/10/gun-violence-dropping-why-us-cities-data/) Analysts show

150 U.S. cities show one of the greatest drops in gun violence ever. Huh? I wonder why that is. I

wonder why that is. Well, good news. The Trace explains itself. Gun violence is trending downward.

This is what the article is talking about. Three quarters of the cities with the most shootings, according

to the analysis of The Trace’s Gun Violence Data Hub. They highlight various cities such as St. Louis

with their gun lines trending down in the course of 12 weeks. There has been 1.4 fewer victims being

shot, translating to a 4.1% decrease of the average weekly shooting victims. They go over their details

using isolating terms, which is how they cook the books. But you know, as they highlight and ignore the

“blips” of various mass shootings, as they show the various lines trending. You can go to the article.

They highlight.

Teddy Nappen 10:45

I love how they always try to paint this here. So they say there was a large spike in pre-covid, in pre

covid. In covid levels of 2020, of the spike. Now, what they don’t like to highlight is the fact that if you

actually look at the data, you will see that the trend numbers, crime was still up very high prior. But

there has been a massive change where there’s a downturn, where, you know, remember, they were

toting during the election, where they’re saying, crime is down, crime is down. But if you actually look at

it, from pre-covid levels to now, the crime was actually very high. It wasn’t until a massive change this

Page – 3 – of 6year. I wonder what that was? So, now, after two more years, in their words, two years of sharp decline,

you know the answer? This is their reasoning they give, folks. Here it is. Teachers, counselors, after-

school programs, basketball coaches, violence interrupters and others who are the front lines of fighting

gun violence. I wonder what the others are? Also, why do they highlight basketball coaches? What is

that about, people?

Teddy Nappen 12:03

And they were also highlighting the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which gave $250 million and

$750 million to state programs, including red flag laws, mental health courts. And funding has dried up

now. They need it. Up, here it is, folks. More money, please. More money, please. So, this is where

they’re toting it. They’re trying to get the federal Government to fund their anti-gun rights programs,

where they’re pushing for more red flag, believing that that actually has an effect on crime and

shootings. It has been proven that it does not. So, they go into more citing about how they need to fund

programs like Cease Fire, other local programs, quote, unquote.

Teddy Nappen 12:56

But I want to highlight something they completely ignore. Gee, I wonder why they’re pushing for this

now? Why are they now, all of a sudden, trying to say that? They’ve been pushing for a long time that

crime is down and now, when it actually is showing where crime has dropped a crap ton in various

areas. Why is that? Well, under USACarry, pulling this up, you can actually see how all states are now

“shall issue” or Constitutional carry. (https://www.usacarry.com/concealed-carry-permit-reciprocity-

maps/) So, now, the more prevalence of people being able to carry, people being able to defend

themselves and not be victims of shootings, being able, which you gotta always cite to, I believe the

number is 3 million lives are saved. That’s from the CDC. Lives are saved from defensive uses of a

firearm. It’s one of those they need to, that is always highlighted, but they like to ignore that. So, the

mass push for carry has come up and crime is starting to tick down.

Teddy Nappen 14:10

Uh oh, look. And here comes the truth. Right here, from BearingArms by Cam Edwards.

(https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2025/10/13/nra-calls-on-congress-to-adopt-concealed-carry-

reciprocity-n1230239) The NRA-ILA Executive Director says it’s time for Congress to step up and pass

national concealed carry reciprocity, which allows lawful gun owners to carry across the country. There

it is, folks. That is the push. Not just about the funding. Not just about the fact that they’re trying to push

for more red flag. But they know that if there was ever a time to push for national reciprocity, here it is.

And just right now in the article right from Breitbart, from AWR Hawkins.

(https://www.breitbart.com/2nd-amendment/2025/10/16/president-trump-makes-clear-national-

reciprocity-being-discussed/) Trump specifically said when a reporter asked. President Trump, could

there be any further conversion to have national concealed carry apply to actually D.C., like you have a

driver’s license in Texas and you have a permit. Trump interjected, as you know, they’ve been talking

about that for a long time. It’s an interesting question. A lot of people feel strongly both ways, but we’re

talking about that. The conversation is and he has said, if it ever reached his desk, he will sign it.

Page – 4 – of 6Teddy Nappen 15:26

So, that’s the timing is just perfect. This comes out right in the same time as October. Then The Trace

puts out this article so you can automatically see the game they’re trying to play. They’re trying to

downplay, well, we don’t need national carry. We don’t. No, no, no. You don’t need that. Yeah, all the

states. No, no, no, no. We need red flag. That’s helping, that’s what’s stopping you. Not the fact that

now more and more people are able to carry and are able to defend themselves. I wonder why they’re

trying to make this push now. So, they’re trying to stamp out the need for national reciprocity. I can

honestly see this as their play, because they’re scared. They know, because we already know, the Left

have lost the battleground of ideas. They’ve conceded that ground the moment that the Left shot and

killed Charlie Kirk. They’ve conceded those grounds. They’ve already conceded fact and logic, because

we already see the data. We already see the arguments coming to that.

Teddy Nappen 16:32

So, now they’re trying to pedal the whole argument, like it’s not needed. We don’t need this. Why do

you need national reciprocity? Why do that? Well, we certainly do. Because we see the disgusting

manners places like New Jersey, where they’re trying to push for sensitive places left and right. Trying

to go after our carry and trying to make it impossible and hamper our ability to defend ourselves. But, I

wholeheartedly, President Trump. If you’re listening to this, please push for national reciprocity. Now’s

the time. Seize it while you can and get us our national reciprocity now.

Teddy Nappen 17:13

So, as everyone knows. The favorite segment is the GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And let us bring

up. Now, this is something that has come up recently, and this is something I need to address for

people. They need to remember. Do not buy any ammunition online. Just don’t even do that. Okay?

Here’s the problem. If you’re buying from online, which most of them do it from out of the state, you

know, buy online. You’re in state of New Jersey, and you buy online. I’ll even pull it up right on the page

in my father’s book (New Jersey Gun Law), right here, right here. On Page 13, number (8), may a

person, when you’re ordering handgun ammunition, handgun ammunition, out-of-state and receive it

via interstate commerce? There is no Federal statute prohibiting the acquisition in this manner.

However, unless the seller fully complies with New Jersey law, which includes the display of a gun

license permit and electronic recording, it is unlawful in New Jersey. Additionally, the seller could be

charged with being an unlicensed New Jersey dealer. They have to comply with reporting the 2,000 or

more bulk sales.

Teddy Nappen 18:35

Do not do this, folks, please. Please, do not do this. Okay? Buy locally. All right, go to your local gun

store to buy your ammunition, because otherwise you are setting yourselves up. They are willing. New

Jersey’s fully willing to attack and go after and we’re trying to not allow them to go after gun dealers.

Don’t give them the excuse. Please, please do not buy handgun ammunition online. Do not buy

ammunition online, okay? All right, we must all remember that gun laws do not protect honest citizens

from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Page – 5 – of 6Speaker 2 19:16

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 6 – of 6

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E261_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 260- Doctors and Firearms Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 260 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Firearms, medical industry, suppressors, hearing protection, gun safety, mental health, New Jersey gun laws, Second Amendment, gun rights, trauma medicine, public health, gun ownership, ethical boundary violations, firearm training, gun legislation.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 1, Speaker 2, Dr. John Edeen

Teddy Nappen 00:15

I’m Teddy Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Again, my father is allowed to have a vacation, and don’t worry, he will be back. Instead, I am going to be interviewing a very interesting individual who will provide, I think, a very important take that is being overlooked when it comes to firearms and when it comes to the medical industry.

Teddy Nappen 00:43

So, I’m looking to my guest here, Dr. John Edeen, and I believe it was a Edeen rhymes with mean, if I’m correct.

Dr. John Edeen 00:54

Well, that’s right, absolutely.

Teddy Nappen 00:56

Oh, good. So, yeah, if you would like to introduce yourself so that everyone can understand and like, what organization you have been a part of.

Speaker 1 01:07

Sure, I’d be happy to do that. So, my name is John Edeen. I am a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, thus being mean to kids is what I do for a living. Ha, ha, ha. It’s pretty funny. I am the membership director for Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership (DRGO), which is a Second Amendment foundation organization, and it was founded first in about 1994 by Tim Wheeler, who is an ear, nose and throat surgeon in California. (https://drgo.us/) He realized that there was a lot of bias in the medical literature, and also a lot of the academia locally in California, and he was one of the guys that was actually instrumental in getting the Dickey Amendment passed, which basically forbade the CDC from doing biased advocacy research against the Second Amendment. (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5993413/)

Dr. John Edeen 02:06

And I’ve been with DRGO for about 12 years now. So, DRGO is an interesting organization because it’s, you know, doctors and other healthcare professionals, and we even have, believe it or not, a couple lawyers as part of DRGO.

Dr. John Edeen 02:22

Yeah, I know. But we’ve done, we’ve done some amicus briefs for some of the, you know, pertinent cases that has some stuff to do with medical stuff. Just recently the ear, nose and throat society. I can’t remember the actual name of it, but they actually came out with a position statement supporting suppressors. And one of our members, Hayes Wanamaker, who’s also in the leadership of DRGO, actually spoke at the Gun Rights Policy Conference two weekends ago about this. He gave the kind of the scientific stuff, and there is a paper at our website, which is DRGO.us, which goes over a lot of that same information. And there’s, it’s really good intellectual ammunition, especially if you’re in a state where they’ve outlawed suppressors, and you’re trying to get that undone.

Teddy Nappen 02:22

Ah, get them out of there.

Dr. John Edeen 03:02

Because, you know, based on what happened with the Big Beautiful Bill, you know that the suppressor tax is going away, and so people are going to be buying suppressors left and right. But if you’re in a state that doesn’t allow you to have a suppressor, then you can use this to try to lobby. You use it as good information.

Teddy Nappen 03:36

I’m incredibly thankful for that, because I find that a lot of people, if we arm them with a lot of this information, they can persuade a lot of people. Because look, if you talk to the average person, they think suppressor, like, what? You want one of that and you want, like, random shootings, like in John Wick? No, it actually has a very important value, because we don’t need to all be going deaf. Thank you.

Dr. John Edeen 04:00

What was that?

Teddy Nappen 04:03

Exactly!

Dr. John Edeen 04:05

I mean, you have a bunch of shooters that are talking to each other. They’re, they’re like, half of the stuff you can’t hear, right? Because they can’t hear what the other guy’s saying because they have hearing loss. It’s just, it’s crazy. What is that? What did you just say? Huh?

Teddy Nappen 04:21

Sorry, I’ve got range ears.

Dr. John Edeen 04:24

Yeah, I tell you I’ve lost hearing. You know, all you have to do is be, you know, laying prone and with a rifle, and you bump your ear muffs, and all of a sudden you lose your seal. Next thing you know, your ears are ringing. And that ringing is your little hair cells in your cochlea dying. I want you to know that. That’s what that is. And one exposure to, I think it’s what 120 decibels or something like that, can cause permanent hearing loss. All that stuff is in our paper, and it’s worth having. (https://drgo.us/position-statements/suppressors-hearing/) There’s, there’s like, a little synopsis, but then there’s, there’s the whole paper. And you can print them out. There’s great pictures. It has pictures of the cochlea and, you know, and it gives you a fact.

Dr. John Edeen 05:07

I can pull this up right now. I’m sitting here in front of my computer, but here it is. It’s written by, first of all, it’s written by 1, 2, 3, 4 ear, nose and throat surgeons, and they have like, photo micrographs of the inner ear. They have the instant damage is at 140 decibels, by the way. And it’s all on here. And it tells you like a lawn mower is 90 decibels and a jackhammer is 110 decibels. And so a lawn mower for eight hours can give you damage. A jackhammer for 15 minutes can give you damage.

Dr. John Edeen 05:44

And then anything over 140 decibels, gives you instant damage, like a firecracker, a pistol or a rifle. But it’s interesting. It’s very interesting. And there’s a lot of good information. And then there’s also you, if you go looking for it, the ear, nose, and throat people have their paper too, and I think Hayes Wanamaker was one of the authors on that paper, or at least on that position statement.

Teddy Nappen 06:11

Honestly, I feel that this is going to be very important. As I believe, I think it’s NRA or GOA or pro gun there, they just submitted their challenges to the NFA. The fact that they are removing the tax on the suppressor.

Dr. John Edeen 06:27

Right. It makes perfect sense.

Teddy Nappen 06:27

So, yeah. I wouldn’t be surprised. Like, you know, you might get a call or two saying, hey, we want some information, because we’re going to arm this up. But that is going to be very helpful and benefit, because it’s always a fight for freedom, just kind of going into it.

Teddy Nappen 06:29

Now, this is something that happens with a good chunk of us. Every time I go into the doctor’s office, there’s two things that always happen. One, he always calls me fat. Number two, he always asks if I possess firearms. So, what is up with that?

Dr. John Edeen 06:46

Well, you know, a lot of the major organizations, the AMA (American Medical Association) and the American Academy of Pediatrics, they’re all influenced by the Left. They’re Northeastern, you know, academia. Their whole goal is to disarm you so that they can do their Leftist stuff to you, and that’s why we, as gun owners, want to keep our rights so that we can keep them from doing the stuff they want to do to us. Because we’ll be armed and they won’t be able to do anything to us.

Dr. John Edeen 07:39

So, here’s the thing. First of all, doctors don’t receive any training in firearms. Firearm safety, you know, firearms mechanics, how guns work. They’re completely unqualified. And remember gun ownership is a civil right, you know, and as a consumer, you have a lot of power in the doctor/ patient relationship. So, don’t be afraid to use it. First of all, you can refuse to answer their question. In fact, I think was it Tom Gresham used to say, basically, it’s not a sin to lie somebody that has no business knowing the answer. And this is one of the things. You know, I’m not necessarily telling you to lie to your doctor about everything else, but frankly, for this, this is one of those things that they have no business even asking you or knowing.

Dr. John Edeen 08:32

If your health care plan, if this is part of their questionnaire thing, you can complain to them about that. And then also if the doctor, if they persist in asking intrusive questions about this, despite you saying, I’m not, I don’t want to talk about this. This is not why we’re here. There’s a term for that. It’s called an ethical boundary violation. And basically what that is, is that the physician is pushing an agenda that doesn’t necessarily benefit the patient. It’s, you know, they’re doing a political thing that’s not necessarily in your long-term benefit. And that’s an ethical boundary violation.

Dr. John Edeen 09:15

And probably the best example of an ethical boundary violation is having sex with your patient. That’s how bad this is. And you are allowed to complain to your professional board, the State Medical Board, and it’s a big deal when that happens. It requires the doctor to jump through a whole lot of hoops, and frankly, the process is the punishment. It’s not much of a fun thing to go through, having had complaints put against me in the past. It’s no good, honestly.

Teddy Nappen 09:51

I’ll save that the next time they ask me my pronouns.

Dr. John Edeen 09:55

Exactly.

Dr. John Edeen 09:56

Now, here’s another thing. This is my favorite thing to say, and by the way, a lot of this is at DRGO.us, it’s just the question, the medical question. This is my favorite one, though. Ask the doctor, so, doctor, does your insurance company know that you’re practicing outside of your expertise in medical practice? And if I’m harmed by the advice that you give me, will your malpractice insurer cover you to my benefit? Even despite the fact that you are practicing outside of the scope of practice that you’re credentialed in?

Dr. John Edeen 10:34

And that usually will shut them up faster than anything else. Because they realize, oh, my goodness, I’ve stepped on it. I’m out. I’m out of, I’m out of bounds, basically, at that point, because, you know. And the other thing you can ask him is, you know, what organization certifies you to give firearms advice? And if it’s the AMA, say, well, I’d like to see that AMA course on firearm safety. It doesn’t exist. It’s, it’s, you know. Even though I think isn’t it one of the Bloomberg groups that is actually doing a firearm safety thing?

Teddy Nappen 11:08

Correct. Every time. They are doing that. EveryTown is putting out a certification course. Yeah, well, BearingArms did a whole article on it. (https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2025/10/18/everytown-is-having-a-rough-time-and-were-here-for-it-n1230299) I wish I could pull it up for you.

Teddy Nappen 11:21

But what they did was they had a guy who did, who knows who does the certifications, knows what it was. And it was this complete anti-gun bias all up and down.

Dr. John Edeen 11:33

Of course it was.

Teddy Nappen 11:34

Like, yeah, it was just galore. And it was like, oh, my God. It’s like having a vegan teach you how to do butcher like, you know, butchering. Like it was so disgusting,

Dr. John Edeen 11:48

Yeah, and it doesn’t surprise me. Because their intent is not gun safety, it’s gun confiscation. You know it, I know it. Your dad knows it. I mean, you know, as you like to say, Registration, and then, you know, Confiscation, and then you know Extermination, you know, that’s what they’re after.

Teddy Nappen 12:10

The step you missed. And this is what we always need to remember. It always begins with Legislation. So, everyone get out and vote.

Dr. John Edeen 12:17

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Teddy Nappen 12:19

Like your life depended on it, so.

Dr. John Edeen 12:21

Because it does.

Teddy Nappen 12:23

Yeah. And going off of that and kind of one of the other topics, and this has been coming up a lot. I don’t know if you’re too familiar in New Jersey, what’s been going on with mental health commitments, of what they’ve kind of abused that, where they recently made a change under the Carry Killer law, where now voluntaries are considered involuntaries. So, instead of just getting a doctor’s letter saying you’re fine for a voluntary stay, you need a full expungement. That is a whole legal procedure that takes a mass amounts of time, money and effort to get cleared. Which, by the way, sometimes the records don’t even exist because they would destroy them after a certain amount of years. And in some ways, they can construe like rehab. So, what is your view on that when it comes to the mental health commitments for where they’re been making people equivalent of convicted felons?

Dr. John Edeen 13:18

Well, I mean, first of all, there are people that have mental illnesses that they probably shouldn’t own guns. And we have to differentiate those people. People with like, you know, chronic schizophrenia, where they have impaired reality testing, versus somebody who, you know, they just went through a divorce and was a little down. And, you know, situational, normal, reactive times of depression. And, you know, that’s a different area. And what you’re trying to do is conflate that with somebody who’s, you know, basically, you know, a psycho killer. You know what I’m saying?

Teddy Nappen 13:58

Yeah, I they do. My favorite one. I always highlight this to people. A guy is like in his 70s, 80s, and is denied because he was an unruly child when he was seven, and that didn’t screws him out of his gun rights because it was an involuntary commitment when he was seven for a day. Like, that’s disgusting.

Dr. John Edeen 14:20

Yeah, no. In fact that, in and of itself, shows you the extent that they’ll go to try to disarm people. And the whole thing is a travesty. And frankly, I mean, lawyers like you guys ought to be going after that kind of stuff, because it doesn’t give anybody due process. You have no ability to, you know, fight it, basically, you know. If they make a law that says, you know, 50 years ago, you know, you were, you had ADHD, and you went a little crazy, and you ended up in the hospital. Or, you know, you took some pills, and you got, you know, you were hallucinating, or something like that, and you end up in the hospital. That’s not necessarily something that you should lose your rights over.

Teddy Nappen 15:09

Yeah, and, quite frankly, just the level of what it takes to even get the records cleared. The judges have such broad discretion that, I mean, they can just say, oh, yeah, everything’s here. You’ve met the criteria. Doctor says you’re fine, but I’m still going to deny you because of character, temperament and whatever weasel clause they use.

Dr. John Edeen 15:35

But under Bruen, that’s not allowed, is it? I mean, that’s the whole thing. It has to be a distinct set of criteria, not.

Teddy Nappen 15:45

The issue is, when it comes to mental health expungements, the three pillars they have. Under the law for mental health expungements, you have the medical history, then you have criminal history, and then community ties and relations, which, that’s the catch all. That was how they were going about denying people. So, now they have to go through this massive character factor issues that have to go through that, and it’s just. It’s a laundry list of issues that come into play for people. So, it’s something that definitely is quite disgusting. And luckily, the firm, the law firm, handles that pretty well. But it’s just, it’s always such a fight for these people, because they just destroy people’s lives in New Jersey.

Dr. John Edeen 16:33

They do, and it’s horrible. It’s absolutely horrible. And frankly, you know, fortunately, we have good people on the medical side, too. You know, you and I both know a lot of those people, and at least, but you know, it costs money. Then it costs time, and it costs mental anguish. You know, this whole, they’re putting you through it again. You know the process is the punishment, and they’re trying to discourage people from owning firearms. It’s all about disarming people, period.

Teddy Nappen 17:08

So, on that note, I will just, I think, as a way to cheer your mode. I want to talk about our good buddies at WeShoot. As our people may know, our good friends at WeShoot offer classes on getting your CCARE certification so you can get your New Jersey Permit to Carry. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They have a fantastic facility with great training and a great pro shop. They have all kinds of deals and specials. We love WeShoot. It’s where I and my father go and shoot, and we got our certifications. If you go there and mention Gun Lawyer, you’ll be treated like a king. If not, you’ll still be treated like a king, because they are the best. Go to weshootusa.com. That’s their website. Beautiful photos, and don’t miss the WeShoot girls as they’re posing with gorgeous guns. And there are guns that you can buy, and they have great deals, great sales. They can not only, they can not only sell you the guns, but also they can teach you how to effectively use them as well. Check out weshootusa.com. WeShoot is conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey, right off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did.

Teddy Nappen 18:16

And let me also mention our good friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC). And the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs just had a case in the federal court where the appellate court gave a mixed win at the moment. But of course, the fight never ends. It was, we’ll call it a partial victory regarding sensitive places in the Carry Killer bill. Essentially, what the status quo is at the moment has been maintained. You can still carry in your vehicle with the carjacker protection law that was still enjoined. You can carry concealed, loaded on your person in your vehicle with a New Jersey Carry Permit. That is still enjoined. And you can do that because, remember, the Carry Killer Bill tried to prevent it.

Teddy Nappen 19:02

You can still go on private property, as long as it’s open to the public and not otherwise a sensitive place. We lost a little bit in terms of filming locations, in terms of movie filming, and in terms of transporting on public transportation. You’re going to have to have the gun cased and unloaded, etc., if you’re going to be riding a bus or train. However, interestingly, they found that the $50 fee portion that goes to the State was unlawful. It’s unlawful because it went to the VCCB, which is the Victim’s Crime Compensation Board. Under case law, you cannot have a fee for the license not actually go to regulatory activity. That is the purpose of the fee. That has been knocked out. So, now you only have to pay the $150, and if you live in any town that is refunding, such as Englishtown, which was one of the first to start it, they’ll refund their $150. So, you can actually get your carry permit in New Jersey for free.

Teddy Nappen 20:04

And the fight continues. This is just one step as we go along, challenging the Second Amendment oppressionists legislation as they’ve laid it upon us. And the Association is in the forefront fighting for your rights. Make sure you’re a member of the anjrpc.org That’s anjrpc.org.

Teddy Nappen 20:23

And before we finish off the ads, let me shamelessly plug my father’s book, New Jersey Gun Law. The Bible of New Jersey gun laws. You can get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com. And you’ll be glad you did. Because it helps keep yourself out of the New Jersey Gun Owner Gulag. It helps you navigate the very complex course that has been laid out by the gun rights oppressionists who try to trip up and turn you into a criminal. To stop you from being a defender instead of a victim. You need to be a defender instead of a victim, especially since the police have no duty protect you, as you know. So, get the book. You’ll be glad you did. Go to EvanNappen.com and look for the big orange book. Order today, and when you get it, make sure you scan the front cover and get in the private subscriber base. You’ll be able to immediately access the archives, and you’ll get the up to date, including be able to download the 2025 Comprehensive Update that includes a new standalone chapter on “sensitive places”. Where you can and cannot carry. So, check it out today.

Teddy Nappen 21:27

So, Dr Edeen, one of the other big things that does come up a lot, and this is just something I see. The Left is constantly making this argument where they’ve tried and tried to make firearms a health issue. They always try to conflate that. And I don’t know if there was anything you can highlight to us like where did that kind of start or any spot to where you can kind of give your opinion on that issue?

Dr. John Edeen 21:59

Well, it goes back probably 20 to 30 years. They’ve been trying to push the public health issue side of this thing. And frankly, doctors have no control over the public health issue, over the “gun violence” issue. It’s not a public health issue. It’s a criminology issue. You have to, when you look at Dr John Lott’s research, it’s the same people over and over again in a very small area that are the recurrent perpetrators of the violent acts and end up causing the “gun violence”. So, it’s really not a, you know, public health issue.

Dr. John Edeen 22:46

It’s not like it’s a disease that you can stop, you know. I mean, I mean, if you can intervene at the gang level, and, you know, get the kids not to go into the gangs, that might be some kind of a public health thing that you can do. But that’s about as close as you’re going to get to preventing this, you know. Because this is really a gang violence problem. It’s a criminal, it’s a criminal violence problem, but it’s not a public health problem.

Dr. John Edeen 23:16

The beauty is that trauma medicine has evolved so well that we’re still able to save a lot of people when they get shot. If you can make it to the hospital alive, you’re probably going to survive. You know, the trauma centers and the trauma systems are set up to help people survive. So, you got these gang bangers, if you look at them, you know, they’ve been shot six times, 10 times. They end up getting shot. They go to the hospital, and they get patched up. They go back out, and they get into another gunfight. They get shot again. And so these guys aren’t afraid of you or me with a gun. I can tell you that right now, because they’ve been shot already. Most of them have been shot, and they’ve survived it. And so, don’t be surprised if you know one of these guys, you know, if you pull a gun on him, he laughs at you. Unless you’re serious and he realizes that you’re going to, you’re going to shoot him, you know, and you’re going to shoot him down to the ground. He may not be afraid of you. So, it’s really not a public health thing. They like to call it a public health issue, but medicine has no tools to stop a criminal activity. And that’s really the bottom line.

Teddy Nappen 24:27

Honestly, I was thinking of the, I remember there was some crime story where they were interviewing a former gang member, and he covered his face. But he took off his shirt, and he showed like he got shot gunned, like, point blank to the chest, and he lived. And it wasn’t even, like, bird, it was buckshot. So, I’m like, how? But yeah, some people, it’s

Dr. John Edeen 24:51

He’s lucky. They just didn’t hit, they didn’t hit something big enough to cause him to bleed out before he made it to the hospital. You know, they probably took out part of his lung and probably took up, you know, branches of the pulmonary artery in a vain. But it might have Tampa nodded off, or whatever. Or somebody might have stuffed something in there and kept him from bleeding to death. But, you know, I mean, the ability of the trauma surgeons to save people’s lives is pretty amazing.

Dr. John Edeen 25:17

Man, I was a military surgeon back in the, in the, you know, the 1980s and early, mid 80s to mid 90s.

Teddy Nappen 25:25

A saw bones, were you?

Dr. John Edeen 25:26

Oh, yeah. I mean, I am a saw bones. I’m an orthopedic surgeon. That’s what I do. I saw bones and correct them. Straighten them out, put screws and plates in them and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, the bottom line is that, especially like, since the global war on terror, trauma medicine has evolved and evolved. You know, people were using tourniquets and now we have quick clot. I mean, I carry a tourniquet and quick clot in my pocket wherever I go. I have it with me 24/7. because those are the most effective things in my view. You can, you can kind of jury rig, you know, a chest seal out of the packet for that, that troop, the clot gauze or, you know, with some duct tape or whatever. But the bottom line is, is stopping that, you know, stopping the bleeding is probably the most important thing for people to survive, you know, penetrating trauma

Teddy Nappen 26:20

Is there a tourniquet you would recommend for someone to carry?

Dr. John Edeen 26:24

I use the soft T wide, but the cat tourniquet is also good. Both of them are. They’re kind of the tourniquets of choice, put out by the military trauma people. I mean, there are other tourniquets out there too, but those are the recommended ones by the Committee on trauma.

Teddy Nappen 26:47

Honestly, that’s pretty good advice. I might actually start doing that.

Dr. John Edeen 26:51

Yeah, I have, I keep it. I wear scrubs all the time, and I have, you know, pockets, five pockets. And my scrubs are like cargo pockets. So, I’ll throw a tourniquet on one side and two things of quick clot gauze on the other, and just carry that. It’s easy to do. You don’t even know it’s there.

Teddy Nappen 27:10

I’ll definitely consider that. So, I know you touched on this. What is your opinion of the AMA and their position on firearms. I think you touched on it, but I think let’s paint it very clear as to kind of the enemies of our rights.

Dr. John Edeen 27:31

Can I say they’re a bunch of commies?

Teddy Nappen 27:33

You may do so. I fully believe it.

Dr. John Edeen 27:36

Yeah. And they want to take, they want to take over. They want to take over medicine, first of all, and here’s something. Let’s look at what happened during the Covid crisis. The medical community sold us all out for money. I’m on something called the Profession. I was on the Professional Staff Committee. They just dissolved it about a month ago.

Dr. John Edeen 28:03

But during Covid, I kept asking the powers that be. I said, why are we not doing any studies on ivermectin or what’s the other stuff? I can’t remember. Anyway, yeah, hydroxychloroquine. Why don’t we? Why aren’t we doing any studies on that? Well, you know, why aren’t we, you know, treating people early when they show up with a positive covid test. Why aren’t we giving them something to treat them? Why are we waiting till they’re on death’s door and then we put them in the hospital? Oh, yeah, and we get $40,000 a day from the federal government to treat each one of those patients in the hospital. But we get zippo when we treat them, you know, with medication.

Dr. John Edeen 28:47

And then the other thing is in order to get approval for an emergency use of a vaccine, there has to be no other medical treatment available. So, this is all about the billions of dollars that were available through the Government to Big Pharma, which was then also through Government passing down money, you know, to the hospitals. And so, we were sold out by medicine. And I’m a doctor, you know, and I could see it. You follow the money. I’ve been talking about this for five years now. I mean, since probably 2020, for five years, I’ve been talking about the fact that you have to follow the money to find out what’s going on. And we’ve been sold out by the, you know, the Big Pharma. We’ve been sold out by the American Medical Association. We’ve been sold out by the Centers for Disease Control, and we’ve been sold out by our Government. And this whole thing is, you know, this is the public health issue, not guns. Okay?

Dr. John Edeen 29:56

You know, the AMA is a Left wing organization. They’re crooked as, you know, what? And, you know, I don’t trust anything they say. And I’ve been dealing with, you know, my dad’s 97 right now. He broke his hip six months ago. We’re dealing with, you know, we’re dealing with all the health issues. They can’t get anything done, you know. And the whole system is corrupt.

Teddy Nappen 30:21

I completely understand that. We’ve had a lot of family where it’s always you’ve got to know somebody, but it’s just the games they play and the hoops they make you jump through. To the point I’m just, I always love at the end of every email you get from the hospital, it’s from the World Health Organization. I’m like, oh, that’s all, that really helps.

Dr. John Edeen 30:43

Yeah, it’s not, it’s not healthy at all.

Teddy Nappen 30:46

Nah, no, yeah, yeah. But on the one, the last questions, you’ve been very informative on all this, and I think our listeners will appreciate someone of your position and knowledge putting that out for people. Because they need to arm themselves and hear the truth. Regarding, what is your view on the health benefits of children and guns together, getting the early experience of firearms? I don’t know if you had anything on that.

Dr. John Edeen 31:16

Well, you know, kids and firearms, under good supervision, children can learn anything, right? And we’ve all seen organizations where children are taught how to use a .22 pistol to do target shooting, or shoot it using a shotgun for target shooting or whatever. Those kids step up, and they mature. And so, as far as I’m concerned, supervised firearms training and children is actually a great thing.

Dr. John Edeen 31:51

Because it allows, I mean, I live in Texas, okay? We’ve got ranches all over the place. Kids are hunting from, from the you know, they’re, you know, age 10 and beyond. They go out in the woods with their .22 rifle and shoot, you know, squirrels and whatever? Do I see kids getting shot? Yeah, I see kids shooting themselves once in a while, and the first thing I ask them is, so, what are the rules of gun safety? And you know, most of them don’t know that answer.

Dr. John Edeen 32:21

But you can ask some of the other kids, you know, some of the kids, they’re, you know, they’re competitive shotgunners. You know, that’s one of the biggest sports in the country. Did you know that? Shotgun sports? Yeah, the high school championships in the Midwest are huge. You don’t hear about it in New Jersey. But in other places in the country, there’s a lot, there’s a lot. It’s bigger than football in some places. And so, yes.

Dr. John Edeen 32:50

But if you look up, you look up shotgun sports and kids, you know skeet shooting and trap shooting and stuff like that. It’s a big deal on the Midwest. There are leagues, and they’re, you know, they’re like, it’s like, your team, you know, your high school team plays against the other high school team in shot gunning. It’s great stuff. So, you know, it’s limited in in certain places. You know, they try to suppress it, but in other places where it’s allowed, it blooms. And it’s just phenomenal for kids,. Because it helps them mature, and it’s a social thing. And it helps them with, you know, just developing responsibility, a sense of accomplishment. It’s that whole thing. Now, why people? Why kids do sports? It’s to develop into a into a good, responsible adult.

Teddy Nappen 33:46

It’s definitely, I see that benefit. And quite frankly, I remember when my uncle would talk about, like, he would go to elementary school, take his shotgun, put in his cubby. Then finish off school, and then when he was done, he’d go turkey hunting right after. Like, it’s that culture of training and growing up with firearms that I think is very benefit. And honestly, that’s why I think there are some schools now doing, like, firearm safety training as part of the school curriculum. They need to understand that. So, but, um, yeah, that’s actually very interesting on that. And I didn’t realize how popular it is.

Dr. John Edeen 34:21

Oh, yeah. It’s a huge thing. Huge.

Teddy Nappen 34:25

Huge. Nice.

Dr. John Edeen 34:26

Huge.

Teddy Nappen 34:30

Well, you gotta love it. Yeah, exactly. Oh, man, anytime I hear him like speak, it’s his us, wrong. No, it’s a stupid question, move along, like.

Dr. John Edeen 34:45

He is hilarious.

Teddy Nappen 34:47

Oh, yeah. So, yep. That is all the questions I wanted to ask regarding that, and I wanted to thank you for your time and just and discussing these issues. And again, can you repeat the organization and where they can find a lot of this information. Because.

Teddy Nappen 35:03

Sure.

Teddy Nappen 35:03

Again, I want everyone to take their time to listen and read this stuff, because it is important.

Dr. John Edeen 35:09

There’s so much on our website, you can’t read it all. I’ll tell you that right now. Our document archives goes back into the 1990s. So, we have, you know, on our blog, we have stuff from a lot. There’s stuff that I’ve written. They’ve actually published or republished two of the articles that I wrote. One was about an active shooter in the hospital. It’s called “The unthinkable: an active shooter in the hospital.” I wrote that in our local magazine for our medical society. And then I also wrote for USCCA, an article about terrorism against hospitals world wide, and I wrote that in, I think, 2015. That’s also reprinted. So, that’s some of the stuff that I’ve written. Plus, there’s more that I’ve written. But there are positions and resources, guns and public health, gun safety, gun research, gun question, EMRs and gun suppressors and hearing protective orders and external resources.

Dr. John Edeen 36:11

Article archives by a bunch of us, and then there’s just document archives. There’s media stuff or blog. It just goes, it goes on and on and on. We’re also on like Facebook. And Rob Young publishes a lot of stuff there. There’s a lot of interactive stuff, too. So, you can interact with him. Rob Young is our director and again, we are part of the Second Amendment Foundation. If you’re interested in becoming a member, you can go to DRGO.us and just join. There’s a tab for “join now.” It’s like 35 bucks, but it’s worth it, especially if you’re in the healthcare profession. We would love to have you write articles. And you know, it’s just a good bunch of folks. I’ll just leave it at that. But this is a great resource. A great resource.

Teddy Nappen 37:07

Yep, and to anyone out there who is a doctor and is pro-gun, I mean, your voice needs to be heard. Because, like he said, good chunk of them are not, and I think we need to have that out there. There needs to be good doctors, ones you can actually trust and have your backing and aren’t trying to take away your rights.

Dr. John Edeen 37:27

Absolutely. And we’re the good ones.

Teddy Nappen 37:31

I know, right?

Dr. John Edeen 37:33

We’re the good guys. I will never try to take away your guns, believe me. Never in a million years.

Teddy Nappen 37:39

Yep. So, you can catch now. This is what we do at the end of the show, known as the GOFUs, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. It’s a lesson that other people have learned, so anyone listening can learn it without having to pay the price. And this is a lesson that has recently come up. If you are ever you know, arrested or the cop says, you’re not free to leave, shut up! People, men have died for your for those rights. Stand on them. Remain silent and ask for your attorney. That is it.

Teddy Nappen 38:18

If you are arrested, you are arrested, but do not say anything. If the cop goes up to you and says, oh, I talked to the other guy, but I want to get your side of the story. You say, I have nothing to say. Talk to my attorney. That is it. You do not need to give that side of the story. At best, it’s neutral and doesn’t affect the outcome, and you’ll still be and probably still be arrested. At worst, you’re hurting yourself, and it’s how it goes.

Teddy Nappen 38:47

My father always highlights this all the time. Where Martha Stewart, you know, what she went to jail for wasn’t tax evasion. It wasn’t for taxes. It was for lying to the police. Do you know how you can avoid lying to the police? Don’t say anything. That’s how it goes. So with that, thank you to my guest, Dr. John Edeen, for coming on here.

Teddy Nappen 39:08

I am Teddy Nappen, reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 39:17

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E260_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 259-AG Stands for “Anti-Gun”Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 259 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Anti-gun movement, New Jersey, Attorney General Matthew Platkin, Safe Office, Bruen decision, gun rights, firearm enforcement, Butcher’s Gun World, legal swatting, ghost guns, New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Club, carry permit, New Jersey gun law, pork roll controversy, gun lawyer.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Speaker 2

Teddy Nappen 00:15
I’m Teddy Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. My father is allowed to be on vacation and could not make it to the episode, but don’t worry, he’ll come back. I know we were going into details on the face of the anti-gun movement. We talked about who is truly the effective anti-gun, gun rights oppressionists of New Jersey. Everyone might just shout out, oh, Governor Murphy, obviously. I get that. However, there is one individual who has become the attack dog or spearhead of the anti-gun agenda in New Jersey and has been very effective at attacking our rights. Even now, as we have the Bruen decision, as we have many pro-gun avenues like Ford, where we’re getting far more wins than we could have ever imagined. The one individual who has been an absolute destroyer of our rights is Attorney General Matthew J. Platkin.

Teddy Nappen 01:31
Now, we’ve talked about Platkin with his SAFE Office, the Statewide Affirmative Firearms Enforcement Office. It sounds really official. They have used this as a weaponization against our rights because they’ve already conceded the grounds of, okay, they can’t win legally in terms of Constitutionality. We’re winning on those fronts, slowly but surely. They can’t win on the voice of ideas, because the anti-gun arguments are immediately shut down. The only time they can ever even attempt to pull something out is whenever there’s a mass shooting and they try to blood dance. But with the Charlie Kirk assassination,, the ICE attack and then every single Left wing attack, the conversation has pivoted to mental health and highlighting those factors. So essentially, we’ve won in terms of the argument ideas.

Teddy Nappen 02:30
So, they can’t win on Constitutionality. They can’t win in the open forum of ideas. What do they have left? Well, Platkin found his avenue. We talked about how the AG launched two suits. They were going after two gun shops, basically saying that they violated New Jersey’s law. This is actually on the AG’s website, and he’s bragging about it. (https://www.njoag.gov/ag-platkin-announces-victory-in-gun-store- case/) Like he’s not hiding it. This is what he is doing. Attorney General Matthew Platkin announces a significant victory against Butch’s Gun World, a Vineland gun store that sold over 1000 rounds of AR-15 ammunition and other gun-related products. Gun-related products. And what does that apply to? An accessory. A sling, a piece of metal. Like what is it. They just, whatever. Whatever catch-all term that they have, and without making any efforts to determine that they could lawfully possess a firearm, which, whatever. That’s not how the law is applied. But you know, what does that fall to the Attorney General.
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Teddy Nappen 03:44
He goes into great detail on how he just brags about it, where the SAFE Office launched their attack in March of 2025 with two retailers. The one that settled where, essentially now the gun shop has to send all transactions, all transactions, any gun-related transactions they have to send to the office. So, you’re not only registering guns, you’re not only registering ammunition, you’re registering any gun-related products. This is the gun rights suppressor’s wet dream. Gathering their list of any and all things that are even related to guns. The one group settled. However, Butch’s Gun World actually tried to fight it. And I love this part of the article where Judge Robert Malestein of the New Jersey Superior Court, Chancellors Division, rejected Butch’s Gun World’s attempt to avoid liability. The ruling noted the facts of the case that Butch’s Gun World, established by SAFE undercover investigators, were not in dispute. Okay? Not in dispute. They’re disputing that what they had there was legal. Not that the undercovers are saying that it is illegal. And held that there was no evidence that Butch’s Gun World had established any controls regarding the sales of gun-related products.

Teddy Nappen 05:12
What controls were they required? What controls are needed for that? There wasn’t anything needed for gun-related products. And this is my favorite part. The court therefore granted summary judgment in favor of the Attorney General, issued an injunction compelling Butcher’s Gun World to immediately comply with the Firearm Industry Public Safety Law. And what is the requirements that the AG has now tacked on? Ask for a government-issued photo identification such as a driver’s license potential buyer to card or permit that lack of photo identification. Keep records of all sales of gun-related products, detailing the verifications means of each sale for three years. Transmit those records to the SAFE office and write a set of policies used to educate and train each of the staff in terms of the injunction of those written policies within the space of the accessibility to staff during business hours.

Teddy Nappen 06:16
So what does that mean? Now this shop, this gun shop, has to effectively report all of their sales transactions. Not just guns. Not just ammunition. Anything that they determine to be gun-related products, and now they have to send it all to the SAFE office. What are they doing with that information? Well, obviously they’re making, compiling, a massive registry and records. Keeping track of all purchases. I wonder why they’re doing that? Something, something. Legislation leads to Registration, leads to Confiscation, leads to Extermination. That’s the game. It doesn’t go into detail regarding if he’s challenging the court’s summary judgment. I would. This is insanity for the for them to not be allowed. There was no dispute that everything was done legally and that the AG is weaponizing the SAFE office to go after gun shops. Because now they’re trying to do that.

Teddy Nappen 07:23
I love the Left’s term. They’re trying to coin the term, food desert. Which, by the way, a food desert is a myth. You can. That’s ridiculous. And now they’re trying to do news deserts with the defunding of PBS. Well, here’s the actual strategy, gun deserts. That is their goal. Gun deserts. Fine. You can have your rights. Good luck trying to get a firearm. And they’re trying to go after these shops any way they can. And this is the highlight of Platkin’s career, as there have been many things that he has done when he was appointed by Governor Murphy. This is going off of the Democrat Attorney General Association, which is one heck of a group. (https://dems.ag/profile/matthew-platkin/) You can just see here are all the gun rights oppressors all listed out, and they’re pushed to go after our rights. He has launched his attacks, and all this is on his website.
Page 2 of 6
Teddy Nappen 08:20
He’s bragging about his attacks. I love this. He sent a letter to Glock after suing them. A letter being issued by the City of Chicago in that where they march, they Chicago had filed suits against Glock, knowing their guns can be easily adopted to make into a machine gun with the addition of an auto sear. I love how they always tote the auto seer. They always try to drag those things in every single time. Really, that’s the threat? The current issue of crime that people do? Yeah, the massive influx of auto sears. Yeah, that’s the real problem. And the City said machine guns have become a weapon of choice for the criminals of Chicago. Yeah, yeah. Not the fact that it’s just a pistol, typically, not an actual machine gun, like. And the letter detailing that they had sent out basically modification to Glock handguns through the use of switches. How Glock pistols are designed to develop a function as semiotic, any efforts Glock may have taken in considering and Glocks knowledge about all state and federal laws regulating the Glock switches and converting Glock machine guns. Legal responsibility as a manufacturer these guns, whether they follow the law and financial details about Glock pistols, including profits, manufacturing, distribution costs. Oh, that’s nice. Yeah, Glock just hand over all their details on who you’ve been selling to, who’s been buying and selling Glock pistols, and keep track of those. That’s always the goal they want. It’s all about control, yeah. And then they highlighted their suit against Glock for violating state firearm industries for New Jersey.

Teddy Nappen 10:19
And then, of course, he tacked himself on with 20 other Attorney Generals in their amicus brief on the new federal rule regarding ghost guns. Ghost guns. Unserialized weapons that are often made at home – kits, parts, completely framed receivers. It can be purchased without any background check. Such weapons are illegal in New Jersey. The rule would ensure that buyers pass background checks before purchasing such kits. They see here, just trying to justify the gun control movement by going after Glock switches, ghost guns and targeting dealers because that is all they have now. They know they can’t win in any other form of attacks, and now they’re going to sue us out of our rights. That’s the only thing left they have.

Teddy Nappen 11:20
And I also love this one, too. He also spearheaded with the SAFE office to install an app for legal swatting, essentially. This comes from New Jersey Health and News, which, that’s the whole goal. The app will be available for download on mobile devices. It allows you to submit anonymous reporting. Youth and Families can anonymously request help for mental health issues, housing and food security, domestic violence. There it is. Among other concerns, the initial builds the existence of the NJ DOH school-based infrastructure already providing the opportunity to New Jersey’s highest need districts by connecting with existing youth family wellness programs currently in New Jersey school district safe. New Jersey will become a key element of the continuum service provided by the new NJ DOH, aimed at keeping students, staff and families safe.

Teddy Nappen 12:17
What does that mean? Now, you have anonymous reporting where someone can say something. Oh, a kid disagrees with his father and downloads the app. He writes that my father is a gun owner, and we had an argument. And now you submit that and, boom, Red Flag. That’s how they do it. They want to make it easy because that’s what they do. That’s what they want to do. To create this legalized swatting. And they always tie it to “stop school violence” or to “improve school safety”. They always highlight that. You know, I’m waiting for when these app, when they actually can see the abuse that
Page 3 of 6
comes into play and see the messages that are actually posted on there. Because what? Someone says that, and you’re just taking the word from an anonymous post from them, and that destroys lives.

Teddy Nappen 13:19
We’ve seen this time and time again. We’ve seen people where, you know, the domestic violence is the he annoyed me or he threw pretzels at me. That level of domestic violence. And that’s how lives are destroyed. That’s how rights are destroyed, are taken. And this is what Platkin’s goal. This is what he wants to do. And you see that where the whole game is that they’re trying to aim for. They want to sue our rights into oblivion. And God forbid you are ever in a moment where you need to use your firearm for self-defense. Because that’s the only thing else they can do. They’ll take you to court, and more than likely, they’ll lose. But they don’t care. They’ll destroy your life. They’ll tote you out there and turn you into Daniel Penny or Kyle Rittenhouse, trying to destroy your character when they were both fully justified in their actions and proven not guilty. It’s something that definitely the fight goes on. Always, when it comes to these individuals.

Teddy Nappen 14:25
So, I think we need a cheerier note on when you are carrying and you need to prep yourselves. You guys should go out to our buddies at WeShoot. WeShoot offers the classes to get your CCARE certifications so you can get your New Jersey Permit to Carry. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They have fantastic facilities with great training and a great pro shop. They have all kinds of deals and specials. We love WeShoot. That’s where myself and my father go and where we got our Certifications. Just go there and mention Gun Lawyer, and you’ll be treated like royalty. And if you don’t mention Gun Lawyer, you’ll still be treated like royalty. Because they’re the best. WeShootusa.com is their website with beautiful photos, and you don’t want to miss the WeShoot girls that are posing with gorgeous guns. And those the guns that they have, that you can buy, and they have great deals, great sales. They can not only sell you the guns, but also teach you how to effectively use them. Check out weshootusa.com. WeShoot is conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey, right off the Parkway. You’ll be glad you did it.

Teddy Nappen 15:40
And again, going at the legality of currently fighting the good fight against the gun rights oppressors and laws that are in New Jersey. Let’s talk about our friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC just had a decision in federal court where the Appellate Court gave a mixed win at the moment. But, of course, the fight isn’t over. We’ll call it a partial victory regarding “sensitive places”, the Carry Killer bill, essentially what the status quo is at the moment has been maintained. You can still carry in your vehicle with the carjacker protection law that has still been enjoined. You can conceal carry loaded on your person in your vehicle with a New Jersey Permit to Carry. That is still enjoined. And you can do that because, remember the Carry Kill Bill tried to prevent that. You can still go on your property, private property, as long as it’s open to the public and not otherwise a “sensitive place”.

Teddy Nappen 16:40
We lost a little bit in terms of filming locations, in terms of movie filming, and in terms of transporting on public transportation. You’re going to have to have a gun case to unload, etc. if you’re going to be riding the bus or the train. That’s still been enjoyed. You can still, you going into. However, interestingly, they found that the $200 fee that was $50 portion that goes to the State was unlawful. Unlawful because it was to the VCCB, which is the Victims Crime Compensation Board. Under case law, you cannot have a fee for a licensing not go to an actual regulatory activity. That is the purpose of the fee. That has been
Page 4 of 6
knocked out. So, now the price for the New Jersey Carry Permit is $150, and if you live in any of those towns that are refunding it, such as Englishtown, which was one of the first started, we’re seeing refunding their $150. So, you can actually get the Carry Permit in New Jersey for free. And the fight continues. This is just one step that we go along challenging the Second Amendment oppressionists legislation that they lay upon, that they lay upon us. And the Association is at the forefront. They are the spearhead. They are fighting for your rights. Make sure you are a member anjrpc.org. That is anjrpc.org.

Teddy Nappen 18:21
And why not? I will shamelessly plug my father’s book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun laws. You can get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com, and you’ll be glad you did it. Because you can keep yourself out of the Gun Owner Gulag by familiarizing yourself with the various rights and issues that are, that keep coming up in New Jersey. It’ll help you navigate the complexity of the laws and all the traps that have been laid out by the gun rights oppressionists who try to trip you up and turn you into a criminal. You’ll need to be a defender instead of a victim, especially since the police have no duty to protect you. And now you know the book. You’ll be glad you got it. Go to EvanNappen.com, and you’ll see the big orange book. Order it today, and when you get it, scan the front cover. Make sure you get into the private subscriber base. You’ll have immediate access to the archives so your book stays up to date. We’ll be sending out updates, and you can download the 2025 Comprehensive Update that includes a new standalone chapter on “sensitive places”, where you can or cannot carry. So, check it out today.

Teddy Nappen 19:45
And with that Press Checks. I don’t know if you guys have been seeing this online, and I just thought it was hilarious. I think we need a bit of levity. The Democrat nominee known as Mikie Sherrill, I love this, went on a podcast interview. (https://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/virginia-native-mikie-sherrill-says- nobody-likes-gross-pork-roll-in-new-jersey/) They were doing a fluff piece about New Jersey. Just a highlight. She’s Virginia-born Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill, and she goes on there. And then, of course, New Jersey asks the question, hey, Taylor ham or pork roll? So, she says, Taylor ham. First of all, she just violated federal law by calling it Taylor ham. It’s not Taylor ham. It’s pork roll. That was our most popular episode here on Gun Lawyer. But what she added, followed up with, that is hilarious. She went and said, who eats pork roll? Not me. I think that’s gross. I don’t even know what it is.

Teddy Nappen 20:40
Oh, my God. You are running for the New Jersey Governor. I mean, it’s the state sandwich. It’s pork roll. The disconnect on this woman to say that I don’t like pork roll. Pork roll is gross. Just how tone deaf do you have to be? I mean, no wonder it’s so close where it’s 43/43. Like that would knock a good chunk of people out of there. She doesn’t even know what it is. You know what it is. It is the taste of freedom, the last bit of freedom that is in New Jersey when you bite into a pork roll, egg and cheese on a hard roll. That sandwich with just a little bit of ketchup. Gotta add the ketchup. Just adds to the flavor. You’ve got to do it. That sandwich is very symbol and hope that is in New Jersey. And she says, oh, it’s gross. And of course, her opponent, Jack Ciattarelli, jumped on it. Where he says, I do. And holding, sure enough, the pork roll, egg and cheese on a hard roll. I didn’t see the ketchup, though, but I won’t hold that against him. He says, you can call it Taylor ham or pork roll. Look, I won’t hold it against him. He should just call it pork roll. But I tell you this right now, if he’s listening, if your campaign is listening to this, here’s your ad. “Mikie doesn’t like it.” Just bumper stickers up and down. Mikie doesn’t like it, and show a picture of a pork roll. That is an effective advertisement. You know, Trump had “Kamala’s for
Page 5 of 6
they/them, I’m for you.” Mikie doesn’t like it. Just put that everywhere, and that will win you the day. What are the ultimate like political befuddles? How can you say pork roll is gross when you’re running for the governorship of New Jersey?

Teddy Nappen 22:40
So, we will end with the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. This is something I’m highlighting as more of a practical rule, count your bullets. What do I mean by that? Whenever you have to take out your firearm and unload, when you’re D gunning, or if you’re traveling, I highly recommend having one of those ammo cases. So, you can check your ammunition and see the count. Because we’ve had too many people where they go to the range or go somewhere and they have loose ammunition that they didn’t know fell out of their mag, which happens. It happens sometimes. And then, you know, he’s pulling up to a school, and the loose round falls out the car. It just creates a whole issue right there, and you’re setting yourself up for the landmine that is New Jersey. Count your bullets, and always check your mags. Make sure you have an accurate count. Okay? That is something that you need to do. Because if you’re not accurate, loose ammunition, bullets fall out, randomly found in pockets, found in suitcases when you go into the airport. Count your ammunition. And with that, this is Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals honest citizens.

Speaker 2 24:07
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page 6 of 6

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E259_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 258-How to Protect Your House of WorshipAlso Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 258 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Supreme Court case, Wolford vs. Lopez, sensitive places, New Jersey law, carry permit, church security, stun gun, pepper spray, gun violence, anthropomorphic traits, Second Amendment, gun rights, gun laws, gun storage, GOFOU.

SPEAKERS

Teddy Nappen, Evan Nappen, Speaker 2

Evan Nappen 00:15 I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17 And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19
And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I received a letter that I want to talk about that has an important issue in these times. But before I even get to that, I just want to make an announcement. The Supreme Court of the United States just accepted a gun case. So, this is very exciting because we’re now going to get another Supreme Court decision. This case is the Wolford versus Lopez (U.S. Supreme Court Docket No. 24-1046) out of Hawaii, which will most likely impact New Jersey as well. (https://www.scotusblog.com/cases/case-files/wolford-v-lopez/) Because the key issue here is “sensitive places”, specifically, Hawaii’s sensitive place law that requires express permission from a property owner to carry a handgun on private property that is open to the public.

Evan Nappen 01:15
Now, New Jersey has that same type of sensitive place. However, in New Jersey, we won on that one in the court challenge so far in which the requirement that originally stated you had to have permission before you went on any private property, whether open to the public or not. New Jersey split it and said, no, if it’s open to the public, you don’t need that prior permission or a sign hanging on the building that says, we love guns or, you know, come on in. But in Hawaii, the court upheld actually needing permission from a property owner for property that is open to the public. So, for example, in Hawaii, if you have a carry license, you can’t walk into a 7-11 with your gun unless you have expressed permission to go on that private property that’s open to the public. In New Jersey, that is not the case. In New Jersey, you can go into 7-11, but you can’t go into private property that is not open to the public. So, if you’re going to visit your friend, well, your friend better give you permission before you carry your gun there.
Page – 1 – of 8
Evan Nappen 02:33
But what makes this exciting is that the Court, hopefully, in addressing this issue will give us a framework to evaluate other sensitive places, and it may very well have the impact of annihilating most, if not all, of New Jersey’s sensitive places, at least with a test to test their constitutionality. And by the way, the Hawaii challenge is broad and also in their sensitive places, banned guns on beaches, parks, and restaurants that serve alcohol, just like New Jersey has. So, we’ll see how far the Supreme Court goes in its analysis and if it sets up a framework for challenging sensitive place laws that we’re currently in the fight with the State of New Jersey. You know, our great state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, has the ongoing federal litigation challenging New Jersey’s Carry Killer bill, and this should be of great benefit in our fight for Second Amendment rights. Now.

Teddy Nappen 03:46
Out of curiosity, if for the sake of argument, Saint Justice Thomas is listening to Gun Lawyer, what would be the best frame?

Evan Nappen 03:58
Well, that is a very difficult question as to how they will structure the test. Now, one thing that would be just awesome is, but I don’t think it would fly necessarily, is they just say, hey, these are the only sensitive places that are sensitive places, and make it crystal clear that none of the others count. But I don’t think they’re going to do that. They’re probably going to try to structure some type of test and that’s something that we’re going to have to wait and see. I can’t even put forward a test at this time that would cut the bill, but that’s why the Supreme Court Justices get the big bucks. And let’s hope they put a test out there that is makes it pretty narrow as to where our rights get restricted. So, we’ll see how that works.

Evan Nappen 04:52
But in a similar vein, we have a letter here, and this letter is from Chuck. And what Chuck says is, is it legal to carry and use a stun gun or pepper ball dispensing air gun? I have a concealed carry (permit) but am considering other options. We are in the process of a Church security assessment, and I was thinking this and pepper spray would be a good option, less expensive, requiring less training and risk, if used in a less than appropriate manner. As a note, I enjoy your podcast weekly, and I’m a U.S. Law Shield member. Thank you and Peace. Okay, Chuck, thanks. So, as far as the stun gun and/or pepper ball deal, we’re still stuck under the current case law that makes it a problem to preemptively arm yourself for self-defense outside the home with a stun gun or pepper ball type device. You can possess them, and you can have them in your home, but not outside your home. And here we’re talking about in a Church. So, unfortunately, until we get it acknowledged officially in a case, I can’t advise just carrying those around. You have a problem under N.J.S. 2C:39-6, and it is subsection d. specifically, regarding preemptively arming oneself for self-defense outside the home. So, beware of that. Now on pepper spray, you would be allowed to carry three quarters of an ounce or less, which is a rather small container. That is the only pepper spray that’s exempted.

Evan Nappen 06:45
But if you’re going to talk about church security, and we want to talk about lethal security, can you carry your handgun at your house of worship, whether it’s a church, a synagogue, mosque, whatever? Can
Page – 2 – of 8
you do that? And the answer is yes. Houses of worship are not a sensitive place under New Jersey’s Carry Killer law. So, you are allowed to, at least you’re not prohibited from having your legal carry gun that you have a permit for at house of worship. If you participate in that house of worship’s security, that’s up to you, but you would be allowed to carry your gun. However, the danger, or the trap you have to watch out for is, since many houses of worship also happen to have schools – Sunday school, Saturday school, whatever the school is, where it’s part of that facility, then that section that is the school takes on the “sensitive place” designation of a prohibited sensitive place for a school. So, if there’s a separate part of the building or a separate room where the school is, but in the general congregation area, that’s not a school ground, you can carry there. But you can’t go into the school part.

Evan Nappen 08:17
So, if the security team wants to be able to lawfully carry in the part of the house of worship that is a school, then we have to overcome two prohibitions. One is New Jersey’s sensitive place prohibition, but the other is a law that is under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e.. This also can set a trap for the unsuspecting just basically dealing with any school property. So, New Jersey sensitive place says you can’t have it. You can’t carry have your gun into a school. However, if you pull into a parking lot of a sensitive place, New Jersey says, oh, well, you can unload it, lock it, unloaded in a box in your car, and you’re okay if you do that. However, that would satisfy, even though that would satisfy the “sensitive place” prohibition at a school, it does not satisfy the second and other prohibition, which is found under 2C:39-5.e. And what that says is, any person who knowingly has in his possession any firearm in or upon any part of the buildings or grounds of any school, college, university or other educational institution, without the written authorization of the governing officer of the institution, is guilty of a crime. So, if you park on the grounds of the school, even to pick up your child or to go into the school and you use the exemption found under “sensitive places”, it will not cover you for the other school property prohibition. So, be wary. It is a trap. It can be a big GOFU.

Evan Nappen 10:32
But let’s say you’re in the Church and you want to have your security team be able to go into the school. Well, there is a way to work around that. So, as you can see, as we just read, if there’s permission, written authorization of the governing officer of the institution, then you would overcome the 39-5.e. prohibition. However, how do you overcome the sensitive place prohibition? Because now we’re talking not just being in the parking lot, but we’re talking about actually being in the school itself, within the house of worship. Well, for that, we go to the sensitive place law, which you’ll find under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.6 and go there to subsection e. And what it says is, nothing in this act shall be construed to prohibit the holder of a valid and lawfully issued permit, in other words, a carry permit, who is lawfully authorized to provide security at a place enumerated in those sensitive places from carrying a firearm, whether openly or concealed, provided that the authorization is set forth in writing, and only to the extent permitted by the entity responsible for security at the place in question.

Evan Nappen 12:03
So, if you get written authorization covering you for the first prohibition that we talked with and then if you get that written authorization that can cover you here, there’s one added thing you have to do. You have to be able to be lawfully authorized to provide security. So, who’s lawfully authorized to provide
Page – 3 – of 8
security in New Jersey? Those that have a SORA (Security Officer Registration Act) card. (https://nj.gov/njsp/private-detective/sora-help.shtml) If you’re on the church or synagogue or mosque House of Worship security team and you want to fully have the exemptions apply to you, you’re going to need to have SORA card and your carry permit. You can then be exempted with the written authorization, as we’ve discussed, and it will give you the ability to have the full access to those grounds without being in violation of either school or other sensitive place prohibitions. So, thanks for a great question, Chuck.

Evan Nappen 13:15
I also have a letter here, and this is from Jay. Jay says, I listen to your blogs regularly. I want to really thank you for the service you provided guarding our constitutional rights. I had two questions, but he actually has three questions. So, I don’t know, but we’ll do all three. Number One – are cross shoulder straps allowed as a holster for concealed carry in New Jersey? So, I’m assuming what you mean by cross shoulder straps, meaning a shoulder holster. You know, the rig that you carry essentially under your arm, and it has the straps that you put both your arms through. Some are made even just for a one arm through where you have it. And the answer to that would be yes, as long as the holster itself stays concealed and qualifies as a holster that covers the trigger and the body of the firearm and secures it properly. As long as the holster part does that and you have it concealed, then having it in a shoulder holster, we’ll just generally use that term, would be fine. It’s the holster itself that has to meet the criteria to be a legal holster. And then, of course, you have to keep it concealed. So, keep that jacket on over that shoulder holster.

Evan Nappen 14:38
Two, it says private residences in New Jersey with no sign saying firearms prohibited, and the answer, as I discussed previously, is no. If it’s a private residence with no sign, you’re going to have to get, you know, consent verbally, or else you’re not allowed even if you’re invited into the private residence. The prohibition on private property that’s not open to the public is still in effect. And then the other question is, are trigger locks considered locks? What about a trigger lock in a gun safe? Well, trigger locks are locks. But the question really is, if your gun has a trigger lock, is that the same as having it in a locked container? No, because there the container itself has to be locked. So, if you’re using a trigger lock, yeah, that can provide that your gun is locked. But what is often found in these exemptions is the need not just to have it locked, but to have it in a locked container. That’s what’s going to give you the maximum coverage, and that’s the point. So, if you want to have a trigger lock and have it in a locked container, feel free. If you want to have it locked in your safe, okay, you can have a trigger lock on the gun in your safe. But the trigger lock itself, generally speaking, is not going to get you the exemptive coverage that you’re most likely looking for.

Evan Nappen 16:11
Now, here’s something that caught my attention that I found to be very interesting. This was an article in AmmoLand, and I really like it because it actually gave me an argument about something that has been bothering me and that we’ve discussed before. This is an article called “Why Gun Grabbers Say ‘Gun Violence’ Instead of Addressing Real Problems” by Dan Wos. (https://www.ammoland.com/2025/09/why-gun-grabbers-say-gun-violence-instead-of-addressing-real- problems/) Now this is an excellent point, and I want you all to let this sink in. You know, we’ve talked
Page – 4 – of 8
about the propaganda use of the term “gun violence” and how it’s really “criminal violence” and how it’s a propaganda term. But what I really, really, like about this article is it took it to another level, which really kind of gave me a bit of an epiphany here. So, I really want to thank Dan for pointing this out.

Evan Nappen 17:09
Let me read a quote here from this article. “To vilify guns, the political left has made it a point to attach human traits to firearms, for the purpose of animating them. They do this as often as possible. They understand that when a human element is involved, causality and intention can be used for emotional leverage. In other words, by attaching the word ‘violence’ to the word ‘gun’ and attaching the word ‘assault’ to the word ‘rifle’, the anti-gunner can peddle the notion that the firearm has behavioral tendencies.” Brilliant, brilliant. That’s exactly it. In other words, what the antis are doing is anthropomorphic. (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anthropomorphic) They are acting and creating anthropomorphic qualities to a gun. So, when we’re talking about something being anthropomorphic, we’re talking about giving something human characteristics or traits that it wouldn’t have.

Evan Nappen 18:25
Children love anthropomorphic cartoons, talking bears, talking rabbits, etc. Bears and rabbits don’t talk, but if you give them human qualities, they do. That is a form of anthropomorphic trait, giving right there. Giving it the human element. So, by doing that to the term “violence” and taking that term “violence” and attaching it to a “gun”, guns are not violent. People are violent. Violence is a human attribute, not a gun attribute. Guns don’t go around acting violent. People do. So, this is a brilliant part. The same with so-called “assault firearms” in New Jersey. Firearms don’t assault anyone. People assault. So, this is the trick. This is the propaganda tactic. This is a technique used by the Second Amendment oppressors to use the anthropomorphic term. And when they do, folks, call them out on it. I know from now on I will. Because once you can identify the propaganda technique, once you can call them out on it, you cut them off at the knees. Tell them – do not add human characteristics to an inanimate object. That is false and a lie, and you’re treating us as children by trying to make bears talk. That’s not how it works. Excellent point. Keep it in mind when dealing with those propaganda terms put out by the Second Amendment oppressors.

Evan Nappen 20:19
And now let me mention our good friends at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is range in Lakewood, where Teddy and I both shoot. An indoor range, and a great place. We love WeShoot. And this week WeShoot has some really great specials. They’re offering the SIG Sauer P320 Spectre Comp Blackout. I’ve got to tell you, folks. This is one really cool looking gun. You’ve got to see what this Spectre Comp Blackout looks like. It’s really hot. I’m digging it. Definitely. And they have it at WeShoot. And it is a showstopper. It has an integrated compensator, laser-engraved grip, and full blackout finish. It’s built for performance and style. They also have a beautiful Smith & Wesson 640, that’s the J-frame, but it’s in .357 mag. It’s stainless. It is simplicity. It is one of my favorite pocket rockets, and this one is really beautiful. It has engraving and a gorgeous grip. Check out that Smith 640 that WeShoot has. They’re also offering a Riley Defense RAK47. It’s an American-made AK with forged trunnions, wood furniture, and that iconic 7.62 by 39 punch. And it is New Jersey compliant. Of course, it is. You can have a New Jersey compliant AK, because that’s the only guns that WeShoot would ever sell. They are completely
Page – 5 – of 8
compliant under New Jersey law. So, check out those guns at WeShoot. You can go there, and you can get some great range time in. Or get some awesome training. It is the place where I got my certification, and Teddy got his certification. You can get your certification. Check out WeShoot, conveniently located right off the Parkway. It is really a fantastic range, and I know you’ll love it. Check out their website at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 22:26
I also want to mention our great state association. Like I said, they’re battling right now in that case on the Carry Killer challenge. They are also challenging the so-called assault firearm law. That is a term actually in New Jersey law, believe it or not. A term in New Jersey law that has given human characteristics to a gun. It’s in our statutes, making talking bears as a prohibition. That’s right, that’s what New Jersey’s done. They’ve done it as well, when you think about it, with ghost guns. Whoo. Well, what’s a ghost? A ghost is a human spirit. Let’s give it human spirit ghost characteristics like Casper. Back to childhood cartooning to grab that emotional response. Once you see the light on this, it’s clear how the antis play this game. But our state Association is on it. They are absolutely on it. We are fighting the good fight, and we’re making progress. So, you need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure that you are go to anjrpc.org. Go to anjrpc.org. Join today and be a member.

Evan Nappen 24:01
And let me mention, make sure I do, my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Make sure you get and have my book. It’ll help you navigate through the treacherous waters of New Jersey gun laws. They constantly lay out potential GOFUs and other traps to disenfranchise us of our gun rights and to continue the movement of gun rights oppression. Don’t fall for it. Protect yourself. Get a copy of my book. Just go to EvanNappen.com and order your copy today. You’ll be glad you did. It’s over 120 topics, all Question and Answer. Made easy to understand. That’s how I wrote it. It’s a labor of love, folks. Get your copy today. Teddy, what do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 24:52
Well, as we know, Press Checks are always free. And anytime you hear where the anti-gunners try to run cover, and they say, we don’t want to take your guns where. No, that’s not what we want to do. That’s not what we want. It’s always common sense. They always sell it with common sense. Well, if you ever want to look towards the future, if the Left were ever left with unvetted power, where they had, you know, the Supreme Court, they had the house, they had the presidency. What would that look like? Look to Canada. They have just kicked off and are actually disarmament. Going through. They finally did it. The Mad Men. They established the program where they’re tackling assault style firearms, even though the list is about over 1500 types of guns. So, practically anything that falls under assault type firearms, they are now going through and doing mandatory. I love, I love the term. They always do. It’s a voluntary program. Although if you do not participate, you will be unable to seek compensation, and you will have to dispose of the prohibited firearm by exporting, deactivating or turning them into police without compensation. But it’s voluntary. It’s just quite disgusting. And this is right off of the Canadian website of the public safety aspect of their, which, you know, it’s Canada state run. (https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2025/09/government-of-canada-moves-forward- with-the-assault-style-firearms-compensation-program-for-individual-firearms-owners.html) From the
Page – 6 – of 8
BC Firearms Academy in Canada, they list off the wonderful price ranges they offer for firearms if you turn it in.

Evan Nappen 26:48
I’m sure it’s quite generous, huh?

Teddy Nappen 26:50
Oh, absolutely. So, if you have a tactical style .22 rifle, it’s about $150 to $300. Pistol, caliber carbines, tactical rim fire, or certain shotguns, that is $400 to $800. For a high range being AR-15 variants, Ruger Mini 14s, or other military-style semi automatics, it’s about 1000 to 1052. And in the special cases of Alexander Arms off, burn off, burnt.

Evan Nappen 27:34
Yeah, well, Alexander Arms is a manufacturer, yes.

Teddy Nappen 27:39
I don’t know this particular gun that they’re referencing. They said, you must call the program and we’ll determine compensation. But what they have from their ranges, it goes up to $1,520 max.

Evan Nappen 27:54
Wait, remember, that’s in Canadian dollars.

Teddy Nappen 27:56
I know. Monopoly money, so it is less.

Evan Nappen 27:58
Oh, yeah. Well, it is not surprising. It’s really a shame, and they keep running these gun boondoggles. Like their registration scheme they spent billions on and then trashed it. And I bet you a number of the Provinces are not going to stand for it, the conservative provinces that actually want to even try to have Canadians have their so-called rights. But man, one thing to be thankful for is that we’re not there yet. Although they’re trying to do it in America as well. Believe me, if the gun rights oppressionists had their way, they would try to do it here. And I’m sure they’ll try to point to Canada, as they do Australia, for the same and the formerly Great Britain. You know, this is what they do. So, we’ve got to keep an eye on what they do around the world. But, of course, we’re here, and the one thing is, what we’re blessed with, which none of these other countries have, is an actual Second Amendment right, which is a guarantee of our right to keep and bear arms.

Evan Nappen 29:19
Hey, let me tell you about the GOFU. This week’s GOFU is from a case that’s actually in the news. This is right out of nj.com. Bergen County SWAT team called to New Jersey hospital after man pulls out handgun. (https://www.nj.com/bergen/2025/10/swat-team-called-to-nj-hospital-after-man-pulls-out- handgun.html) Well, what happened here? The hospital in Bergen County was placed on lockdown after a man entered the intake area with a handgun. And guess what he did? He took out his gun. “Had removed a handgun from his person and slammed it on a table.” Slammed it, folks. Yeah, right. He
Page – 7 – of 8
slammed it. The hospital was placed on a divert status and a shelter-in-place order was implemented. Well silver, yeah. So, what? Bergen Swat. Yeah, Bergen SWAT and every and guess what? This man removed his nine millimeter from his holster during intake prior to a physical exam. And it says right in the article, “Officers later determined the man had a carry permit, but he failed to produce proof.” He had one, but he’s charged under New Jersey sensitive locations.

Evan Nappen 30:40
Okay, look, folks. Medical facilities are a sensitive location. You can’t bring your gun there. So, he brought his gun there, and then he took it out. I guess even we could speculate that he thought maybe it would be best just to remove it so that it wouldn’t be a problem. But that’s not what you do. And then, of course, when police come, you’re required to show your permit, and if you don’t have your permit on you, that itself is an offense in New Jersey. So, now he’s charged with sensitive place violation, a third degree. He’s looking at up to five years in State Prison, and he’s charged with the failure to have his permit on him, which is disorderly person defense. He’s looking at up to six months in county jail. So, it’s a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 31:31
So, what do you do if you end up where you realize you’re in a sensitive place and you shouldn’t have your gun? Make an excuse and get out. Get out and secure it properly. Don’t go pulling it out in the sensitive place. Talk about a total GOFU. Now all you’ve done is create enormous problems for yourself, and it is a classic GOFU. Don’t think there’s going to be anybody being reasonable here. You need to know the sensitive places. You have to be completely conscious about where the sensitive places are. And if you find yourself that you happen to be in one, take the remedial action. Get out and lock it in your car. Every one of your cars, if you have a gun and you carry the carry, better have a lock box in it. You better have one. It’s part of your gear, your permanent travel gear in your vehicle, so that you can secure your gun properly under sensitive place. If you end up going to a restaurant and you see they’re serving alcohol there, whoops. Get back to your car and secure it. And keep your mouth shut. You have a Fifth Amendment right against self- incrimination. So, don’t be stupid. And that’s what GOFUs are, unfortunately. Based a lot on ignorance.

Evan Nappen 33:05
This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 33:17
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
Page – 8 – of 8

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E258_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 257-“86” the 4473Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 257 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, gun laws, opposition research, non-binary, 4473 form, background check, gun

violence, mental illness, gun rights, ATF, National Shooting Sports Foundation, straw purchases, gun

control, sensitive places, New Jersey gun law.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 2, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15

I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17

And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19

And welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, as many of you know, we do what is called oppo research, opposition

research. We not only review continuously, just probably a dozen every day of various aggregate news

sites and services related to firearms, both pro-Second Amendment rights, and, of course, those that

are oppressors of our Second Amendment rights. And one of the key oppressors is Bloomturd’s

organization “Everytown” and their mouthpiece, “The Trace”. However, The Trace, and I have to say

often to their credit, does have stories that, although are completely slanted to supporting gun rights

oppression, often reveal very important things that are not revealed on the pro-gun rights sites.

Evan Nappen 01:25

It is very interesting, and that is what I want to talk about today, because the trace had a very important

story. Of course, it shows the dichotomy on the left, and it demonstrates, of course, left hypocrisy and

gun rights oppressor hypocrisy. But nonetheless, this is an article from The Trace by Will Van Sant, and

the title is, “Buying a Gun Is About to Get More Complicated for Nonbinary People”.

(https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/gun-background-check-nonbinary-trump-atf/) Now, we’ve discussed

this very sensitive and complicated issue of trans, what the oppressors like to call gun violence. So,

how about trans gun violence? You want to add that to it? No, no. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah,

right. Because it has nothing to do with either of those two prefaces? It has to do with criminal violence,

doesn’t it? But once they’ve stepped into this slippery slope and we start putting things into identifiable

groups and using propaganda terms like gun violence, well this is what happens.

Evan Nappen 02:40

And so, of course, now the left is getting their ox gored, yeah, which essentially is their entire trans

agenda. And whether you are in favor of that agenda or against that agenda, it doesn’t matter in terms

Page – 1 – of 12of this discussion. Because what we see is what is seriously the bigger picture, and that is our Second

Amendment rights. And although the case can be made that there’s greater mental illness amongst

trans, as I’ve talked about from the official studies through these Government agencies that look at it,

that there is that factor, it still doesn’t mean that, as a group, anybody should end up prohibited. And of

course, my personal Second Amendment belief is that nobody should be prohibited. As a matter of fact,

if you want to get right down to it, I don’t think we should have any gun laws. That’s right. None. Other

than for unlawful use. That’s right. Put it back the way it was meant to be under the Second

Amendment. That’s it. Use a gun to commit a crime, to do something wrong, what we call a malum in

se offense, something evil within itself. Then that is the crime. Anything else is a mallum prohibitum.

Evan Nappen 04:05

Now I get it. I get it. Because we don’t live in that utopia of being able to go back to actual pure

freedom, God forbid. So, we’re in this situation where there is an attempt to in our society that loves to

sue all the time. We need to protect gun dealers. So, oddly and interestingly, the National Instant Check

System (NICS) and essentially even the gun form itself. And, of course, PLCAA (Protection of Lawful

Commerce in Arms Act). These are all designed to protect gun dealers. Now, on one hand, you should

say, why should guns even be required to be licensed to be sold by dealers? I mean, that wasn’t

something that was originally required. There were no gun dealers at the time of the Second

Amendment that needed a license. Or at the time of the Civil War that needed a license. But we now

have this reality that we deal with, and unfortunately, it’s grown to where, in effect, weaponization by

either political party can take place.

Evan Nappen 05:15

In reality, the 4473, which is the federal form that you fill out to buy a gun. There is no need for it at all.

Okay? We should 86 the 4473 and let me tell you why. We have this so-called background check when

you buy a gun from a dealer. Why do you have to fill out any form at all? Why can’t you just show your

Government-approved identification, which is normally a driver’s license, and then run the NICS check.

You’re either approved or denied. Why do we have to fill out a form? Why do we have to fill out a form

with all this information, answering all these questions? Because it is a trap. It is a trap designed to

catch people who apparently and often inadvertently may give a wrong answer, because it’s so

complicated. Do you know whether your juvenile mental health commitment from 20 years ago is now

being viewed as an involuntary commitment or not? Did you realize whether or not your juvenile

delinquency conviction is somehow a disqualifier? Did you realize that the old misdemeanor offense

from years ago happened to be qualified as domestic violence, so you’re actually a prohibited person? I

mean, we can go on and on. And what happens is that individuals get caught in this mess when we

supposedly have a system that does the check.

Evan Nappen 06:54

If you want to identify the buyer, which even that, I would say, shouldn’t even be needed. Shouldn’t

even be necessary to happen. But okay. If the idea is for dealers to track who is sold a gun and who’s

not, if you pass the Government check and you’ve identified that you’re you, that should be all it takes.

But that’s not the reality, is it? It’s not the reality at all. Instead, we have this form. This form is loaded

with not only traps, but excess information that is frankly offensive in many ways. All right. So, let’s take

a look at, particularly at the moment, the issue regarding how will nonbinary people now have, as The

Page – 2 – of 12Trace calls, a complication, which is actually going to end up being a denial of nonbinary people, in

many instances, getting a firearm. How will that happen? Well, let me explain. You see on the form, on

the 4473, there, is a question that asks about your sex, and it originally was male or female, and that

was it. It was based on the science, imagine that. You’re either a man or a woman. Now I know we get

into the whole debate as to whether that’s righteous or not, and we don’t even have to go there.

Evan Nappen 08:24

Because what further happened is that about 13 states, possibly even more, have enacted for driver’s

licenses to say and have a choice of nonbinary. And what we were finding is that under the old form

4473, where you had to be male or female, individuals who had a binary on their driver’s license were

denied. They were denied a gun purchase because the form required you to be either male or female,

and your ID did not reveal whether you’re male or female. So, anyone with a nonbinary license

indication, they were automatically denied their Second Amendment rights because the form did not

include nonbinary. Now let me tell you something you may not realize. The addition of nonbinary to the

4473 did not actually necessarily happen because the gun rights oppressors said, hey, wait a minute.

We have to make sure that nonbinaries can still buy a gun. No, no. It was actually the National

Shooting Sports Foundation, Larry Keane specifically, according to this article, in 2018 and 2019 that

requested, okay, that actually asked for. And it says here that Keane coordinated with ATF under the

National Shooting Sports Foundation Annual Vegas Trade Show, which we call, of course, what you

know of as the Shot Show, made inquiries and they wanted to address it. And guess what? It was

added to the form. It was added to the form so that now nonbinary could, in fact, purchase firearms.

Evan Nappen 10:44

Well, as you may recall, President Trump issued an Executive Order that throughout the Federal

Government, references to anything about nonbinary would be eliminated. From the military to

Government Employment, across the board. You’re either male or female, and the gun form is now

going to not be any exception to that. Because ATF, according to this article, according to their inside

folks at ATF, you know they have the gun rights oppressor moles at ATF, and what is happening is

they’re going to remove nonbinary from the 4473. Therefore, we’re going to go back to the old days

prior to that 2018-2019 issue. So, people are going to get denied their ability to buy a firearm again

from dealers unless their driver’s license or their Government photo ID identifies as male or female. So,

this appears to be happening.

Evan Nappen 12:05

And so, this is really fascinating. Because now essentially what is of major concern on the Left, you

know, the same folks politically behind oppressing our gun rights in The Trace, right? This is a very

important issue. Look through the whole Biden administration, and you see this is now going to be a

problem. Yet, it was the pro-Second Amendment rights folks that helped to get the initial change. So,

this creates a really interesting political dynamic. And by the way, there is a group. I don’t know if you

even realize this group exists, but it’s called the Liberal Gun Club. They’re a Left-leaning gun rights

group, and their spokesman of the Liberal Gun Club is Lara Smith. According to The Trace, in an

interview, she said, I don’t mean to be flippant as it sounds, but we knew, we knew they were going to

try this. Now it is not just trans people, it’s people on the Left that they’re going to try and disarm or

political dissidents generally. So, she’s raising this issue, which, interestingly, The Trace does say all of

Page – 3 – of 12the country’s major gun rights organizations, including the National Rifle Association, the Second

Amendment Foundation and Gun Owners of America. And they have to add in, of course, which sees

its mission is grounded in the Christian Bible. How about they see their mission as grounded in the

Constitution? Like you, folks, at The Trace should, should see it, but whatever. Condemned the

reported DOJ discussions. ” I was pleasantly surprised about how quickly these big gun groups came

out and said, ‘No, you can’t do this'”. But why is that? Because, of course, gun rights supporters support

gun rights, and we’re not going to be hypocrites about it, right? But here’s the bigger issue. The bigger

issue is that the 4473, in its entirety, needs to go. It needs to go. Why, for example, are you asked on

the 4473 are you Hispanic or not? You have to either admit to your Hispanic heritage or deny Hispanic

heritage. What does that have to do with anything? It has nothing. The reason for it.

Teddy Nappen 14:42

Wasn’t that to combine with the whole Fast and Furious Operation?

Evan Nappen 14:47

Correct! This was part of the anti-gun setup to try to make the so-called Iron Pipeline of guns going to

Mexico until it blew up in their face with Fast and Furious where they actually supplied guns to cartels

that ended up killing the Agent Kerry and causing havoc by guns supplied by our own Government

through that entire fiasco. So, that killed their political approach to trying to ban firearms, particularly

semi-automatics, because then they required rifle reporting if you buy more than one rifle, but only

along the border states. And this was all part of this push. You would think that pro-Hispanic groups

would say, wait a minute, you shouldn’t be discriminating about Hispanic heritage. But it doesn’t stop

there. Why are you asked about race at all? Look, if you’re going to tell me that this is to identify who

you are, that’s what the ID does. Your driver’s license or photographic Government ID identifies you.

You don’t need any of that identification information at all. Not whether you’re male, not whether your

female, not with your nonbinary, not whether you’re Hispanic, not whether you’re an, you know, Eskimo.

None of that. It doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. If they just want to identify the person who’s acquiring the

firearm for purposes of their recordkeeping in the acquisition/ disposition books, the driver’s license

does it. You don’t need any form for that. And all those questions? Well, look, its real simple, folks, do

we have NICS? Do we have a NICS instant check or not? Why do we go beyond that? There’s no

reason for it. You should just give your license. It identifies you, if we’re even going to accept that. But

okay. If that’s how we have to be, you take your license, and they identify you. They run the NICS

check and either you’re approved or denied. That’s it. But that isn’t how it is.

Evan Nappen 16:49

So, interestingly, there’s actually some kind of exciting news in The Trace that’s buried in this article.

But again, I haven’t read this in any gun rights article, gun rights supporter article. In fact, it’s the

oppressors here that reveal this. But it’s actually pretty exciting. Because what it says is that the House

Subcommittee on Federal Law Enforcement says the subcommittee that the agency, by the way,

through this committee, and this is in the article, is investigating necessary changes to the background

check form. And they’re looking to, get a load of this, folks, amend the form so that applicants don’t

unwittingly misrepresent their criminal histories. Then, in addition, remove the nonbinary option. So,

whether that nonbinary option, you know, gets removed, that becomes a form of gun rights oppression,

doesn’t it? On anybody who’s nonbinary and has a license that says it and then is going to be banned.

Page – 4 – of 12Yet, on the other side of that coin there, or the other side of their action, apparently, will be reform, at

least some reform, to the 4473, which should really be 86ed completely. But at least we’re gaining on

part of that statement. Gaining some freedom and gaining some sanity, a bit of it anyway. On modifying

that form so that people who may unwittingly make a statement aren’t turned into Federal felons, right?

And New Jersey, yeah.

Teddy Nappen 18:47

I will say, just as a question, going back to prior to the NICS. Let’s say, go back in time and you go in to

buy a gun. What were you signing and filling out prior to the NICS form? What was the process? Just

kind of, looking at that line.

Evan Nappen 19:02

Well, prior, there was nothing. You could buy guns through the mail, prior to ’68 and all you do, they’d

say, do you certify that you’re over, you know, whatever the age was 21 or 18, depending on whatever

that company, you know, certifying that you’re of age and certifying that it wasn’t unlawful for you to

have a gun. You simply sign that piece of paper or let them know about it, and you bought your gun. It

was shipped directly to your door, just like you order anything today on Amazon, just like that. And

imagine we regulate firearms that are a Constitutional right to this extreme when you can buy all kinds

of things that arguably are just as dangerous in the wrong hands, maybe even more dangerous in the

wrong hands. And there’s no issue with that. So, how come, when it comes to guns, something that’s a

protected right, we have this. But prior to that, there was no form. There was no requirement for that,

and guns could be sent through the mail.

Evan Nappen 20:18

But after the Kennedys and Martin Luther King. And in ’68 when, of course, the Democrats had control

of the Government, they pushed the ’68 Gun Control Act that ended mail order and created what is to

this day, the Federal Firearms License as we now know it, and the form 4473. This is all, you know. It’s

been modified over the years, but this is where you saw that history of it take place. So, amending that

form to fix injustice in it would be a very good thing if we can’t get rid of it totally. But The Trace further

says the quote because this is in response to questions. This is The Trace, I guess, doing their work.

And I will give them credit for this, because I haven’t seen it in any of our aggregate pro-Second

Amendment rights. It says, “The ATF is in the process of updating and simplifying the Firearms

Transaction Form . . .” that’s the 4473. “to make it more concise and user-friendly for both purchasers

and federally regulated gun dealers. Additionally, reviews and appropriate changes are being made to

ensure consistency with the President’s Executive Order Defending Women From Gender Ideology

Extremism and Restoring Biological Truth to the Federal Government.”

Evan Nappen 21:55

So, whether or not you agree with the second part, and like I said, fundamentally, I don’t.

Fundamentally, of course, all the major gun groups don’t agree with that second part. Yet, you can

understand, I’m sure, President Trump’s position on it. But the first part of it is actually very exciting,

because it needs to be amended. It needs to be made more user-friendly. It needs to have that entire

revision done at a minimum. So, the first part of it is welcome news to those who support our Second

Amendment rights.

Page – 5 – of 12Evan Nappen 22:43

And I would also want to just point out a couple quick things that are very, very exciting. Number one,

the Department of Justice has filed an amicus brief supporting the NRA and the Association of New

Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, by the way, challenge to New Jersey’s ban on assault firearms and large

capacity magazines. (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20250919/doj-files-amicus-brief-supporting-nra-

backed-challenge-to-new-jersey-s-ban-on-assault-firearms-and-large-capacity-magazines) That’s right.

The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is the state affiliate of the NRA, that legal

challenge brought by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs in conjunction with the NRA

and with other pro-gun forces in New Jersey. By the way, the Department of Justice of President Trump

is taking our side. Our side. For once, the Government is on the side of the Constitution of the Second

Amendment. That is great, refreshing news, and very exciting. So, I am thrilled about that.

Evan Nappen 23:56

This is one of the major reasons you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol

Clubs. They are the premier gun rights defenders in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners should be a

member. Not only does that help us in fighting the shenanigans in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist

on the alert for all of their Second Amendment oppression that they try to jam into us in BOHICA (Bend

Over Here It Comes Again) after BOHICA, we are fighting those very vigorously, but they’re also in the

courts. They’re in the courts with that very assault firearm, large capacity magazine challenge,

challenging the Carry Killer bill and these others, these other violations of our rights that New Jersey

has enacted. So, you want to make sure that you’re a member of our great Association, the Association

of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org and join today. ANJRPC.org.

Evan Nappen 25:10

Let me tell you some exciting news about our friends at WeShoot. So, WeShoot is an indoor range in

Lakewood, New Jersey, conveniently located off the Parkway. It’s where Teddy and I both shoot and

get our training. We love WeShoot. WeShoot has some exciting news. We shoot is now BUL Armory’s,

BUL Armory’s, first and only New Jersey dealer. It’s very exciting. I don’t know if you have ever seen

BUL Armory products. They are Premier. They are fantastic. If you’ve ever, if you are into the 2011

format, you know, similar to the staccato. And, of course, they’re not calling it 2011 but most you know

this as a 2011 where you have the higher capacity, nine millimeter, but utilizing a 1911 setup on the

slide. These guns are fantastic, and they are also more reasonable than staccatos. Yet, they are

excellent guns. So, I’m a big fan of any anything that shoots. I’m not saying, you know, I’m not putting

down staccato. I own a couple, and I love them. But BUL Armory is really in a magnificent price

competition, and they are definitely a competitor. They are doing it really, really spectacularly. And if

you’ve never shot a BUL Armory firearm, you need to. They also have a line of really cool knives. And,

of course, I’m into knives, too. As you know, I have to strictly limit myself. It has to shoot or cut for me to

like it. And therefore, their blades are very cool. They even have fixed blades in which the handle

utilizes a 1911 grip, very cool. You can check out their blades and their firearms. WeShoot is the first

and only exclusive New Jersey dealer. So, get down to WeShoot, and check out the BUL Armory

products. You will be amazed at how top of the line they are. They are really cool, really great.

Evan Nappen 27:31

Page – 6 – of 12By the way, WeShoot also has plenty of other firearms to fit whatever your needs are. They have the

Ruger Precision Rimfire, which is your ultimate .22 trainer with an adjustable stock and a free folding

handguard. And of course, it is completely New Jersey compliant. So, it is a great gun. They are also

have the Springfield Armory Echelon, which is a modular, striker-fired 9mm, built for duty, defense, and

customization with its Central Operating Group chassis system. In other words, it has a fire control unit

and operates in that manner. So, check out the Springfield. You also have the Tisas 1911DS Carry. It’s

a classic 1911 design, and it has a double -capacity and modern upgrades. And these are just a few of

the really cool great guns at WeShoot. And by the way, Molly is back, and she’s asking, do you want to

see more of her? One of the beautiful WeShoot girls. She’s hitting targets and turning heads, and we’re

all here and for it. So, there you go. Check out WeShoot’s website for beautiful pictures of guns and

WeShoot girls. As a matter of fact, why don’t you go down to WeShoot and personally get acquainted

with both. So check it out at weshootusa.com. WeShoot is there to help you get the training you need to

get your licensing and skills, and you will find that it is a place where you are treated like family.

Everyone that goes there loves it, and I know you will, too. Check out weshootusa.com.

weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 29:21

Let me also mention my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. You

need to have a copy of it. If you don’t, you are sorely losing out on the information that can save your

rights and keep you out of jail. The book is over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer

format. Once you get the book, scan the front cover, and get on my free and private subscriber base.

You will get all the alerts for law changes. You’ll be able to immediately download the 2025

Comprehensive Update, which, by the way, has a standalone chapter on “sensitive places”. It is the

book that is a must have for every gun owner in New Jersey. Go to EvanNappen.com,

EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book right there. Click it and you’ll have your copy in days.

Teddy, what do you have for us?

Teddy Nappen 30:21

Well, as you know, Press Checks are always free, and we always like to go back to looking at the

various anti-gun agendas. More and more, I find that looking at their various arguments and things they

push for. It’s important to go back to history and to see what was the spark, what led to the creation of

their current talking points. So, we go back to everyone’s favorite anti-gun outlet, The Trace. And I love

this media article. It just caught my eye, and I thought, okay, yeah, this is the ultimate. This is how

they’re going to stop it. The mass shooters are going to stop the gun violence in the city of Philadelphia.

Do you know what’s going to stop it, Dad?

Evan Nappen 31:14

Gun violence, Teddy?

Teddy Nappen 31:16

Yeah, gun violence. Do you know what’s their argument? Philly’s latest shooting prevention law is

literally a sign in a window. (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/philly-straw-purchasing-prevention/)

Evan Nappen 31:28

Page – 7 – of 12Oh, signs. They work so well. Like “Gun Free School Zones” and “No Guns Allowed Here”. Oh, every

criminal will obey a sign. I mean, signs are the most powerful tool to stop crime ever invented by man.

Teddy Nappen 31:45

Correct. And this sign is required in every single gun shop in Philadelphia to discourage straw purchase

sales of firearms.

Evan Nappen 31:55

Oh, straw. Is that like from the Wizard of Oz? You know the one of the characters, the straw, uh,

Scarecrow, who’s a straw man, and he’s, you know, he’s a straw man. If it was, if a scarecrow wants to

buy a gun, then straw man purchases get prohibited, right? Isn’t that how that works?

Teddy Nappen 32:12

Well, the problem is, the problem is, the Scarecrow went down to the bad area of Philadelphia. When

they found him, he went, oh, my head’s over there, and my body’s over here! Anyways.

Evan Nappen 32:24

Right.

Teddy Nappen 32:25

Just leaning off of that, it’s this whole pushed agenda where they’re requiring every single gun shop in

Philadelphia to have that sign to crack down on straw purchase sales of firearms. And it got me

thinking, who did this? What was the start? Who originally got this whole talking point of straw

purchases? Because we’ve brought up about the famous case.

Evan Nappen 32:53

It was Dorothy. Dorothy was pissed at the Scarecrow for not having a brain.

Teddy Nappen 33:01

Yep, it was Dorothy. Anyways, going through, I actually pulled it up on the ATF website.

(https://www.atf.gov/firearms/dont-lie-other-guy) In 2000, ATF partnered with the National Shooting

Sports Foundation (NSSF) to do.

Evan Nappen 33:17

Wait a minute. The same folks that got the nonbinary added to the form (4473)? That same group?

Teddy Nappen 33:25

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 33:26

Really, isn’t that interesting?

Teddy Nappen 33:28

Page – 8 – of 12Yeah. Look, it’s one of those where seeing this is what they do. In the common sense ideology, we’d

say, okay, yeah, we don’t want, we don’t want criminals to have firearms. But they.

Evan Nappen 33:43

Actually, what it is, is we don’t want dealers to sell a gun to somebody that shouldn’t have it, because

then the dealer gets sued out of existence by gun rights oppressors.

Teddy Nappen 33:57

Yeah, and that would be, and that would be the more common sense. But even when we try to find

common ground, they abuse it. To where, if you go to any of the sites, when I over here, sure enough,

ATF Nashville Field Office teaming up with attorneys to crack down on straw purchases. And if you go

down to Giffords or you go to any other site, what are they arguing? We need to cut down on straw

purchase sales. We need a Universal Background Checks (UBC).

Evan Nappen 34:29

Oh, no, it’s Universal Background Checks, which means Universal Gun Registration. And we all know

where registration leads to? Confiscation and eventually extermination, as every major Holocaust had

that pattern occur.

Evan Nappen 34:48

We want to work with ATF. We want to work with law enforcement. And you know what? At one point,

the ATF did work with dealers, and they were not anywhere near the aggressive oppressors that they

became in the Biden administration. They were never wonderful. I mean, they were never great. But the

last four years of the senile sock puppet was weaponization like we’ve never seen before of the ATF.

And that’s the problem. Because if they get weaponized, there you go. I mean, zero tolerance.

Knocking out dealers. Their mission was to eliminate every gun dealer in the United States. And then

how are you going to buy a gun without any gun dealers? And since it requires the person to be

licensed dealer, and they knock out licensed dealers. This is that slippery slope.

Teddy Nappen 34:48

Correct. So, this is something the National Shooting Sports Foundation should not be partnered up with

the ATF, which, by the way, that is a very bad look to have on your website.

Teddy Nappen 36:00

Well, now you just highlighted Biden. Sure enough, right under that, is don’t lie for the other guy. They

highlight the 2022 Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. (https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/atf-and-

nssf-celebrate-25-years-partnership-dont-lie-other-guy-anti-straw-purchasing-campaign)

Evan Nappen 36:11

Ohhhh. So, it was then used to pass gun control laws, too. Yeah. Isn’t that interesting?

Teddy Nappen 36:20

So, and this is what it comes down to. I’m quite disgusted, like they should go, they’re literally going on

there. If you go on to their website for the National Shooting Sports Foundation Real Solutions, the ATF

Page – 9 – of 12and the firearm industry collab to keep firearm retail stores secure and prosecute individuals who

burglarize firearm realtors and inform the public that it is illegal to purchase a firearm for someone who

cannot pass a background check. (https://nssfrealsolutions.org/programs/dont-lie-for-the-other-guy/)

And then go to the ATF website and they get praise from the NSSF CEO, Joe Bartozzi. If I’m saying

that right. Retailers want nothing more than to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and the don’t lie

initiative has proven that. We look forward to 25 more years of their partnership.

(https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/atf-and-nssf-celebrate-25-years-partnership-dont-lie-other-

guy-anti-straw-purchasing-campaign) Are you kidding me?

Evan Nappen 37:17

Oh, God. So, here’s the thing. I’m gonna let you know a dirty little secret, Teddy. It is something we’ve

seen throughout the fight for our Second Amendment rights. Industry, industry, has backed gun control.

Let me just give you a short little history lesson. The 1934 Machine Gun Act, the NFA that we’re fighting

now with the big, beautiful lawsuit. Okay? That bill. If you go back to the original hearings, you saw Colt

Auto Ordinance in favor of it passing. You saw the N R A supporting the passage of the National

Firearms Act. That’s a fact, folks. As a matter of fact, if you have the book about the Armed Citizen that

NRA put out, where they have all the great columns of the Armed Citizen in that book, there is actually

a copy of the announcement way back in the ’30s that NRA made after the passage of the National

Firearms Act, they were proud of it. They said, look, we’ve solved the gun control problem in the United

States by passing this national law.

Evan Nappen 38:36

Now, look, they were naive. They thought they were doing well. They thought they were doing good

because of the states passing all different kind of patchwork quilt of gun laws. They thought they could

solve it with one federal law and stop the states from enacting their laws. But, of course, that didn’t

work. And as far as federal law was concerned, well, for little over 30 years, there wasn’t much else in

federal gun law. But then ’68 comes along, and the groundwork has been laid with the foundation of the

prior national gun ban, the National Firearms Act that was officially supported by the NRA back then. I

don’t want to judge them by our enlightened understanding of the problems of doing that, you know,

back then. But they did, and it was a naive mistake, for sure. But you had industry even then,

supporting it as well. And then, guess what? The ’68 Gun Control Act. Do you know who was

supporting it? Major gun makers, major gun makers. They wanted to stop military surplus guns from

coming in because that was affecting their manufacturing in the U.S. They didn’t have a problem with

imported handguns having to meet all kinds of other criteria, because that stopped their domestic sales.

Right? You saw the ’68 Gun Control Act backed by industry.

Evan Nappen 40:03

Hell, you saw the Rose Garden ceremony with (President) Clinton and Smith & Wesson there

supporting it, right? That’s what they with their support. Because they thought they had the internal lock

deal secured for their handgun, and this would become the basis for Smith & Wesson and others to

make their money. So, they said, hey, let’s support this. And they’re supporting, again, an agenda that

is gun rights oppression. So, this is something that unfortunately occurs, and even our so-called pro-

gun rights organizations seem to, at times, be short sighted. Or so focused on their business interests

Page – 10 – of 12and their folks that are members that have this business interest that they don’t see how it will be

abused and used and taken advantage of by the gun rights oppressors.

Evan Nappen 41:02

I really appreciate you pointing out us having to deal with the straw man, the straw man. Which is now,

you know, another term of art, if you will. The same way they call it “gun violence” instead of “criminal

violence”. They have something else now to hang their hat on, to sell their gun rights oppression

agenda, and unfortunately, we helped to create that one. So, it’s a shame, but you can understand why.

They had good intentions, right? But as the old saying goes about good intentions, right? It’s that road

to hell. That’s what it’s paved with.

Evan Nappen 41:43

So, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU. This week’s GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do

we talk about GOFUs? Because it is expensive lessons that gun owners learn, and it costs them their

gun rights, their freedom, lots of money, and if you can learn from that, then you can be protected, and

you can learn from these errors and mistakes. That’s why we talk about GOFUs. And this week’s

GOFU is actually from a letter that I received from Joel. It highlights what is potentially a big GOFU.

Luckily, I don’t think Joel has actually officially become a GOFU, but he highlights something that does

help to create GOFUs. Let me read you his letter. Hi, Evan. I recently serendipitously, heard

serendipitously that the enforceability of New Jersey gun laws changed due to recent court rulings. I

didn’t hear this from the State of NJ directly, even though they have my contact info as part of my carry

permit registration process. Now, you know what? That’s a good point. They know who has a carry

licenses. How come a bulletin isn’t emailed, at a minimum, emailed, if not mailed, from the State to

carry permit holders, laying out the case law and what is and is not a sensitive place? Do we have any

official informational booklet of any type put out by our Government that explains where you can and

cannot carry your handgun so you don’t get in trouble? No, of course not, because they want you to get

into trouble.

Evan Nappen 43:45

The only thing out there that will help you is my book, New Jersey Gun Law, and download the 2025

update that has “sensitive places” explained. Our Government doesn’t send it out, and they know, yet

they know who the people are. And Joel goes on, while ignorance of the law is no excuse, is it in any

way negligent of the State of New Jersey to charge me a fee to register for a permit and provide key

contact information in the process without subsequently using that info to directly inform me of the ways

to use my permit significantly affected by formal legal changes? Now the question is that negligent? No,

you can’t sue them over that, not that I’m aware of. Is it something they should be doing? Hell yeah,

they should be. But again, that’s not part of their agenda. It’s not part of what they want. They don’t

want you to be, actually, a law-abiding gun owner. There’s very minimal done to that effect. And you’re

right, they could easily let us know, but they don’t. Yet they should. Now maybe they’ll come out with

something, because to the State Police credit, they do actually have an FAQ on their website

answering many gun questions. But they don’t have any detailed FAQ on “sensitive places”. At least, if

they did that in furtherance of their mission, which I’m thankful they at least have what they do have, it

would help give guidance. Because law-abiding gun owners want to stay law-abiding gun owners,

right? So, put it out there.

Page – 11 – of 12Evan Nappen 45:19

But as far as saying, because you go into a sensitive place or didn’t know case law changes and you’re

suddenly have a problem, can you then say, oh, well, New Jersey didn’t tell me about it, so I’m not

guilty of it. Now that defense isn’t going to work, unfortunately. Now if New Jersey does put out official

proclamation about what is and isn’t a sensitive place, then you can rely on that. And if a court ends up

saying what they said was wrong, then actually, Joel, ignorance or mistake of law is a defense, a

statutory defense in New Jersey, as long as you’re relying on an official statement by the government.

But their failure to do it does not give an ignorance or mistake of law argument. So, that’s probably one

of the other reasons they don’t want to do it, because they know then people can rely on it and would

ultimately have a defense of ignorance or mistake of law.

Evan Nappen 46:21

Then Joel goes on, especially at a time when court rulings can have substantial implications for legal

gun owners with carry permits. At what point is the failure to directly notify registered permit holders an

intentional act or omission on the part of the State? What are permit holders legal obligations to actively

stay up to date with court rulings on their own? And here’s the deal. There isn’t. There is no implication

for failure to notify. There’s no omission type argument by the Government. Nope. It ain’t going to fly.

Permit holders obligations are to know and to obey the law. It is squarely placed on the gun owner to

know all that. And so the GOFUs are ready to happen. The Government does not help in any way there

on sensitive places to stop it. It is something that should be done across the board. They should be

putting out all kinds of information. Look, if you want to hunt or fish in New Jersey. You can get the

whole compendium right online that breaks down the laws so that you can be a lawful hunter, a lawful

fisherman, a lawful trapper. Where’s that for gun owners? Where’s that for carrying your gun? Where’s

the gun owner Compendium put out by the State of New Jersey for the Second Amendment exercise. It

ain’t there, folks. It ain’t there. And it ain’t there because of their gun rights oppression agenda. I’m

telling you. This is what we deal with every day in the practice of gun law, of individuals who are law-

abiding criminals. That’s right. They’re law-abiding and turned into criminals, and they are officially

victims of New Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 48:39

This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from

criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 48:50

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 12 – of 12

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E257_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 256-Can Hunting Cost Your 2A Rights?Also Available OnSearchable Podcast TranscriptGun Lawyer — Episode 256 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Second Amendment, hunting violations, New Jersey gun laws, license suspension, Fish and Game laws, public health safety welfare, civil penalties, 450 foot rule, prohibited person, domestic violence, red flag laws, gun seizures, Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, suppressors, gun storage.

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 2, Teddy Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15 I’m Evan Nappen.

Teddy Nappen 00:17 And I’m Teddy Nappen.

Evan Nappen 00:19
and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, we have an issue I want to bring to my listeners’ attention, and it has to do with the impact that hunting can have on your Second Amendment rights.

Teddy Nappen 00:42
Is it the long winded debate between rabbit season and duck season?

Evan Nappen 00:46
Exactly, exactly. That’s what it is. And never get into a debate with Daffy Duck if you want to save your gun rights. No, what I’m talking about is the issue in which the Second Amendment oppressors try to use everything and anything they can to disenfranchise us of our gun rights if you end up having hunting violations. Now, not only in New Jersey, if you get two violations, you lose your hunting privileges. They like to call it privileges. Although I really think hunting is a right. Many states have actually enshrined hunting rights as a right in their Constitution. Of course, New Jersey hasn’t done that. But anyway, either way, if you end up with a violation of any of the myriad of ridiculous Fish and Game laws. Some are so petty and insane you can’t even believe they’re on the books. If you get two of those, you’re going to have a mandatory license suspension of hunting and fishing and trapping privileges.

Evan Nappen 02:19
And that’s bad enough, but I think one of the ramifications that people don’t realize is that hunting violations can also cost you your ability to own and possess firearms and be licensed in New Jersey to have firearms. Here’s how it works. Here’s their Gambit. So, one of the disqualifiers in New Jersey
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under the licensing law is called Public Health, Safety, and Welfare based on character and temperament. We call it public health safety welfare. I call it the all inclusive miscellaneous weasel clause, because that’s what it is. It’s a very subjective reason that is often abused by issuing authorities. And even abused to the point, as we’ve discussed, of being racist, in which blacks are denied their gun rights using that provision at a ratio of more than two to one than whites, just on that provision alone. But that’s not where the only area of abuse comes in. They will attempt, they being the Government, will attempt to use hunting violations, and we’ve had any number of cases where they do this against your ability to be licensed under New Jersey law.

Evan Nappen 03:51
So, there are some particular hunting violations that they’re very hot to pull this on, pull this lever, and other ones in the aggregate, or just depending on whether the issuing authority has a hard on for you or whatever. They will attempt to use these things against you, and you want to be aware of that problem. One of the big ones that will really cost you and is a very serious hunting violation, but remember, you can have these minor, stupid ones, too, and they add up. They’ll say you’re irresponsible as a gun owner if you have too many of these, or if your hunting license is suspended because you got hit twice for having the wrong shade of orange that you’re wearing, you know? I mean, that’s one of the offenses. It doesn’t matter, because then they’re going to say, well, you’re not following the hunting laws properly, and therefore you’re not a responsible citizen.

Evan Nappen 05:05
Now, we’ve usually, though the one, the big one, one of the big ones, anyway, is under Chapter 23 which is where the hunting and fishing regs are found. And it’s (N.J.S.) 23:7-3., and it’s causing injury to property of another. “A person who, while hunting, fishing, trapping, or taking wildlife, causes or assists in causing damage or injury to real or personal property of another, including pet animals . . .” You’re liable to a civil penalty not to exceed $2,000 and that’s paid to Fish and Game and goes to their hunters’ and anglers’ fund. So they love, Fish and Game, loves the Fish and Game laws because it puts money in their coffer. So, you know, you think you’re going to work it out some way, but that’s difficult, because they’re there with their hand out, wanting to take your money. And for the first offense, by the way, you have a suspension of all license certificates. That’s for everything. Hunting, fishing, trapping, all of it, to take or possess wildlife for five years. You get a five-year suspension. For a second offense, you’re looking at revocation of all licenses and certificates permanently. So, it would be bad enough that you end up permanently losing your ability to hunt and fish. And, by the way, many states have reciprocity with New Jersey’s hunting and fishing laws. So, if you’re prohibited in New Jersey, you get prohibited in those states as well. So, be aware of that.

Evan Nappen 07:07
But they then will attempt to use these things to somehow show that you’re a danger, that you’re unsafe and that you’re irresponsible. And of course, there’s Fish and Game law that’s very serious if you end up causing personal injury, even purely by accident. But if you cause personal injury, then, of course, they’re going to be all over you for that and claim that you are irresponsible and a danger, etc. So, these are areas where there’s vulnerability. Beyond even your ability to hunt, fish, trap, in New Jersey. Now the they’ll also look at what is the 450 rule. Under the 450 foot rule, New Jersey has a hunting reg that says you cannot be within 450 feet of a building or playground. And if you are within 450 feet of a
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building or playground with a loaded firearm or a knocked arrow, then you’re looking at a problem if it’s an occupied building or a playground, and again. It’s a civil penalty for not less than 100 or more than 200 for the first offense, and not less than 200 or to 500 for a second offense. But if you are convicted of this, not only can you lose your license, but also on that second offense, again, it’s a permanent revocation. Permanent, forever of your hunting and fishing.

Evan Nappen 09:16
And if you end up with a 450 for a loaded firearm, again, the State will claim that you’re a danger, that you’re irresponsible, that you are somebody who should not have a firearm at all. And if you are convicted of any of the multitude of other violations, they can put them together. They’ll look at your entire background while hunting and any of the offenses that you may have had or even just been charged with. Even if you’re not convicted, they’ll still try to use it against you and claim you’re a danger to public health, safety, and welfare. We’ve had those cases. Then as a big, big problem, and I’ve had any number of these cases, is if someone happens to be a prohibited person. Maybe they’re not even aware because they had a prior conviction, you know, decades ago. And they thought it was sealed or expunged but it wasn’t. Or they had a juvenile offense. It’s still a disqualifier. Or if they’ve had any mental health commitment.

Evan Nappen 10:39
Well, if you’re caught possessing, you’re looking at not only a criminal charge of unlawful possession, which can be quite serious, but also a felon in possession, what New Jersey calls “certain persons”. Well, that has a five-year minimum mandatory period of incarceration in State Prison. So, it’s serious stuff, folks. And of course, being a convicted felon isn’t going to help your resume, and it will cause you to be a prohibited person. You lose your gun rights, become a second class citizen and all that. So, beware of that. Make sure that you’re legal to possess firearms. It seems like an obvious thing to say, but you’d be surprised how many folks fall into this trap. And the reason I say it’s a trap is that if you’re a convicted felon, you can go buy a hunting license. There’s no NICS or background check done on a hunting license. Fish and Game will gladly take your money for a hunting license, because they’re all about the money. They’ll take it. You can have a hunting license, but as a convicted felon, you just can’t hunt, particularly with a firearm or possessing other weapons to hunt. So, you can buy the license, but you can’t do the activity. But sometimes there’ll be a misunderstanding where they think, well, they gave me a hunting license, so I should be okay, right? But you’re not okay. Not only can you end up, you can end up doing serious jail time. Go ahead, Teddy.

Teddy Nappen 12:26
Out of curiosity, could there be someone just, oh, there’d be, like, an individual that just do, like, going deer hunting bare handed. If that’s ever been, like a case, or not.

Evan Nappen 12:37
I’ve never heard of that, and I don’t know. It’s probably, probably animal cruelty statutes would kick in over deer wrestling or something to that effect. Who knows? I wouldn’t put anything past New Jersey. Now, of course, if you bare handedly go bear hunting, I would have nothing but respect for you, but I don’t think you want to do that. This is a problem, and you need to be aware that you’re out there taking a risk when you’re hunting. Of not just losing, under New Jersey’s draconian and strict hunting laws, but
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you’re risking as well your Second Amendment rights. And of course, they’ve gamed the system to do that very thing. Everything in New Jersey is about somehow disenfranchising us of our gun rights, about taking away people’s rights so they are not able to be gun owners, and about stealing our guns, which is why they have a multitude of ways to do gun seizures. Oh, and by the way, if that occurs where they’re looking to revoke you, they will, all the time, move to forfeit all your guns while they’re at it as well. So they’ll look to take your guns and look to take away your gun rights. This is the reason that New Jersey is a gun owners hell.

Evan Nappen 14:01
And I remember, before I was even a lawyer, NRA ran an article about Lukey Schaefer in the early ’80s. Lukey was a trucker that happened to venture into New Jersey with a cased and unloaded shotgun, and he ended up getting charged on lawful possession. And I always remember that headline on the NRA article, “New Jersey is a gun owners hell.” And you know what, folks, it hasn’t changed. It still is a hell, and they’ve made it even hotter for us. And that’s why it’s very important that you be part of the fight and that you stand up for our rights. As the movement for conservative voices is increasing beyond our wild expectations, due to certain atrocities that have happened, it’s very important that we take this opportunity to fight the oppression that is New Jersey, legally, lawfully, politically. And part of the way of doing that is by joining organizations that unite us in standing up for a rights. One of the key organizations that do that is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Now that organization is an umbrella organization of gun clubs throughout New Jersey, and they also have individual memberships.

Evan Nappen 15:44
By being a part of the Association, you’re going to get email alerts where you can push a few buttons and let your voice be heard to the legislature. You’re going to be advised about fights ongoing in the courts, challenging the Carry Killer bill, the assault firearm ban and the large capacity magazine ban. All those issues where they further attempted to oppress us and keep us as victims of New Jersey gun law. It’s your state Association that is critical in this fight. Now there are other great gun clubs and gun organizations around New Jersey. This isn’t saying that this is the only one you should belong to. Every pro-group that you believe in, no question, but you have to belong to the Association if you care about what’s going on in New Jersey. The Association has full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they are really doing a great job in an extraordinarily difficult environment. So, go to anjrpc.org and make sure you join. And have your friends and family join, too, because there’s power in numbers. It’s very important that you do that. You may think, oh, I’m just one person, but you can make a difference.

Evan Nappen 17:14
And as our voices are heard and responses are sent in, the legislators do consider just how much outrage and political motivation there is to oppose them and to fight them. So, they take it seriously, and we make a big showing because of the alerts that have been sent out by the Association. It really does make a difference, and we’ve seen it. Also, the Association has become a good negotiator of our rights. We’ve been able to achieve things without legislative necessity. We’ve been able to work things out with the Attorney General, such as the “no serial number” gun ban that literally banned millions of guns in New Jersey. And through efforts of the Association and my colleague and good friend, Dan Schmutter and myself and Scott Bach, who’s the Executive Director, we were able to get the Attorney
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General to make clear that it was strictly limited to so-called, as readily understood, ghost guns only, and not all the pre ’68 guns with no serial number. Because that was legal prior to ’68 and that it didn’t apply to imported guns because they didn’t have Federal Manufacturing registrations in New Jersey. And antiques and other guns and so forth. So, it was a very important thing, literally saving millions that was done through your Association.

Evan Nappen 19:00
We’ve also been able to get the criteria changed via the Attorney General for carry permits. We went from the John Wick carry requirement to CCARE, which is a reasonable course and test of your core competency, and so that individuals would qualify to get their carry permit. Again, an accomplishment by your state Association. So, those are just a few examples. But through the years, if you wonder about, you know, can you stop while you’re transporting your firearm from, say, your home to the range. Can you stop for some food? Can you stop to go to the bathroom? Can you stop to get gas? Can you stop to pick up a friend? The answer to those questions is yes, you can, as long as it’s reasonable and along the way. And why is the answer yes? Because of an Attorney General opinion that we worked out through the Association. These are all things where direct, absolute benefits can be seen by the efforts of ANJRPC. So, make sure you join and belong.

Evan Nappen 20:22
And the other important thing to do is belong to a gun club or organization. Now we are good friends with WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood. It’s fantastic range, just great people. That’s where Teddy and I shoot, and we love WeShoot. They have great courses, and they have great trainers. They are offering, all the time, amazing courses in firearms and in self-defense and in even other subjects, including ham radio operation, should the stuff ever hit the fan, and you want to be able to communicate. So, they really have some great stuff. And I would highly recommend going to WeShoot right there in Lakewood, conveniently off the Parkway. You can check out their website, of course, at weshootusa.com. WeShoot also runs sales, and they have special guns they get in. They happen to be highlighting this week the Colt 1911 Competition, which is a race-ready .45ACP, with Novak sights and match-grade performance, which is built for precision and podiums. They’re also talking about the Marlin 1895 Trapper, a compact, fast-handling, chambered in .45-70 government. This lever action legend is back with Ruger quality and a threaded barrel for your suppressor setups.

Evan Nappen 22:08
And what’s really nice. That model Marlin 1895 in .45-70 is the gun that both Teddy and I have bear hunted with. In fact, it was the Marlin 1895 guide gun that literally saved my life while bear hunting, when I was charged by a bear in the blind. Yeah, I was on a ground blind, my friends, because I don’t care too much for the blinds that are high up in the sky. I find that I rarely fall off a ground blind, okay? But those of you that hunt elevated, I get it. It’s fine, but I prefer a ground blind. So, I’m in this ground blind, and this bear literally charged the blind where I was. I had to shoot him point blank from the hip, virtually touching his body. And I just fired with a get the f away from me shot that luckily sent him sprawling. And it was a .45-70 that did the job and put him down immediately. So, I have a great love for my Marlin 1895 guide gun. Plus it is the gun they used in a Jurassic Park as protection against dinosaurs. So, if you ever think that you want to keep dinosaurs away, well, look how effective the .45- 70 is because I have yet to encounter a dinosaur while having my .45-70 with me. So, it must work
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really well. But I know it works perfectly on charging bears. I can personally vouch for that. And WeShoot has got the Trapper, which is a handy, handy carbine, set up in that great round. And, of course, my favorite ammo is the Garrett load. Garrett makes a super hard cast .45-70 that are like little freight trains. I think they’ve even taken the Big Five in Africa with that round. And man, was I glad I had that round and that gun.

Evan Nappen 24:40
WeShoot is also offering a Beretta 92XI SAO Tactical, which is a modern twist on a classic M9 with a single action only, suppressor-height, sights and optics-ready versatility. Now, of course, suppressors, unfortunately, are not legal yet in New Jersey, but plainly, they need to be, because it’s hearing protection, and they’re a great idea. I mean, you wouldn’t want to ride around in our cars without mufflers, right? And look, people rob banks in cars, and if you have a muffler, it’s less likely for them to be hurt. I mean, it’s a stupid logic. Like, are you kidding me? We need mufflers on cars, so give me a break, and you still hear cars even with mufflers. Well, you still hear guns even with silencers. It’s just that it’s not ear shattering, ear splitting noise. It’s noise that you can actually hunt without hearing protection. So, you can hear the game, and you can hear other hunters. And in a home-defense situation, it’s ideal. It’s not going to blow your ears out in your house, should you have to fire. It also helps control recoil. And if you’re at the range in training, you can listen to commands very easily. I mean, they’re a great accessory to firearms. New Jersey needs to get its act together on that one.

Evan Nappen 26:08
And of course, we filed, through the Association and others have filed a legal challenge to the constitutionality of New Jersey’s ban on so-called silencers, which we call really suppressors, but the law calls silencers. It is a very good thing, and plus, we have federal challenge in the big, beautiful lawsuit, challenging the NFA regulations that have put silencers in the same category as machine guns since the 1930s. So, there’s a big movement. And most states, not including New Jersey, of course, have legalized silencers for hunting because they see the great advantage. So, these firearms at WeShoot are threaded for a suppressor. You can’t have a suppressor yet in New Jersey, but hopefully down the road, you’ll be able to. And if you have any of those guns, you’ll be set to go and buy a nice suppressor. So, look, folks, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com and make sure you visit the range. You’ll love it. It’s a fantastic resource that we have in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 27:18
And let me also tell you about another resource in New Jersey, and that’s my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Don’t be left behind and not have the book. I wrote this book to try to keep you legal, keep you from becoming another victim of New Jersey gun laws brought to you by the New Jersey Second Amendment oppression system. Okay, that’s what our gun laws are. It’s a system of Second Amendment oppression, and I have laid out for you how to navigate through that very complicated matrix of laws so you can stay legal. It is the resource on the subject. Go to EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com, to get your copy today. Hey, Teddy, what do you have for us today in Press Checks?
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Teddy Nappen 28:20
Well, as you know, press checks are always free. And every now and then, I want to do a double check on our opposition, particularly now, as to see what the spin, the spin that they’re been cooking up.

Evan Nappen 28:36 Oppo research.

Evan Nappen 28:38
Yeah, that’s because there’s not a trace of truth in them. That’s what it is. A trace not even a trace of truth.

Teddy Nappen 28:38
Always a fun time. And it’s from everyone’s Bloomberg, sorry. Bloomturd. Sorry, I misspoke. Is the outlet known as “The Trace. They decided to run an article going off of.

Teddy Nappen 28:56
I always give credit for people able to come up with funny names. Like, you know how MSNBC changed their name because they won’t only be associated. Now it’s MS Now. I’ve heard it called BS Now.

Evan Nappen 29:12 That’s pretty good.

Teddy Nappen 29:13
Yeah, it’s a pretty good one. And you know everyone.

Evan Nappen 29:16
Well, they are competing with CBS, CBS. So, anytime you watch that channel, you see BS.

Evan Nappen 29:25
That’s my dummies favorite channel. I think.

Teddy Nappen 29:25
Yeah, I’m just more of a communist news network myself, but

Teddy Nappen 29:36
I know, right? But going off of The Trace, Trump cancels domestic violence program. (https://www.thetrace.org/2025/09/trump-domestic-violence-program-cancel/) Wow, that sounds horrible and also probably inaccurate. As I was reading through the article, what they’re freaking out about, and by this Alma Beauvais. Oh, multiple sites are scrambling after the Trump administration canceled a program designed to help tackle the dangers by guns in domestic abuse situations. What does that dress up? Domestic abuse situation tackling the issue of guns? Ding, ding, ding, ding. Red flags. They always love to dress it up. Every single time.
Page – 7 – of 13
Evan Nappen 30:25
Well, that is one of the primary ways that New Jersey seizes guns, through that system. And in New Jersey, it’s so easy to make a claim of domestic violence. You just need a predicate act, which can run the gamut of any criminal offense, including harassment, which is a petty disorderly person’s offense, where the essence of harassment is doing something with purpose to annoy. Now, I know none of you have ever annoyed your spouse, right? You’ve never done that. Because if you have, then you’ve committed domestic violence in New Jersey, because that’s harassment. And then you can have your guns seized and a restraining order placed against you. So, it’s customary abused.

Teddy Nappen 31:15
Anytime they try to say harassment, Dad, I always go back to “he threw pretzels at me.”

Evan Nappen 31:22
Yes, that’s an actual case I had where the basis for this champion, shot gunning champion, had all his guns seized was a complaint that he threw pretzels at her. That was it. That’s all it took to qualify enough for a Temporary Restraining Order. And as soon as that TRO issues, pre-printed on the form, pre-printed is a search warrant to search and seize firearms. I mean, that warrant on there is unbelievable. I mean, it’s harder to get a properly made sandwich at Wawa than to get a search warrant as part of a TRO. It’s literally baked into the cake. They check the box and give the address and there you go. Because the DV itself is apparently sufficient to demand the seizure of Second Amendment rights and firearms, and you will then have to fight to regain your rights. New Jersey has a law, by the way, that says anybody who’s had guns seized pursuant to domestic violence becomes a prohibited person. So, even if you weren’t the violator, but your guns happen to be seized too, you’re prohibited from having guns until those guns are returned to you. It’s called “the seized but not returned provision”. So, if you are ever in a DV situation, even though the restraining order gets dismissed, you must get your guns back or you will lose your gun rights. You are a prohibited person, similar to a felon, because you had guns seized and not returned.

Teddy Nappen 33:23
Yeah, so and kind of going off of that, you see where this money comes into play. It was under the Department of Justice’s Firearms Technical Assistance Program, where they would give out these grant monies to different communities to help tackle the dangers posed by guns and domestic abuse situations. The example they give is there was a half a million dollar grant to this Tucson community where the police department, they bragged about 60 protective orders served, 174 firearms “surrendered” by law enforcement. The courts have connected more than 200 high risk abuse survivors with service providers. So, they’re highlighting trying to justify the value of, you know, legalized swatting on individuals.

Evan Nappen 34:17
And by the way, when your guns get seized, they are all run through a forward trace and NICS for check on the guns. And what happens is those forward trace numbers get inflated on every seizure, and then they’ll put out more statistics showing how many states have had how many crime guns. But included in the crime gun statistic are all these seizures taking place where they’re just running them
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through the system in a routine manner. There’s been no conviction for any crime it, but they put them in that category of crime guns to, again, pump the numbers.

Teddy Nappen 35:12
But I also find very funny in the article, is this cancelation coincides with a recent proposed rule by the DOJ that would help restore gun rights to certain people with criminal convictions, including misdemeanor domestic violence offenses. So, remember we talked a while back about the incredibly racist law that Chuck Schumer where they.

Evan Nappen 35:38 Right. Where they stopped.

Teddy Nappen 35:40
They defund the very ability for 33 years.

Evan Nappen 35:44 Yeah, 33 years.

Teddy Nappen 35:46
Now, they’re tying that to helping restore people’s rights to domestic violence.

Evan Nappen 35:51
Right. So, what they’re doing is they’re trying to lay groundwork to fight the rights restoration by somehow trying to link it to domestic violence. Now, keep in mind that the domestic violence misdemeanor gun ban is something where you lose your gun rights for a misdemeanor. So, historically, it was originally only violent felons, and then over time, it became just felons. Then with that slippery slope, it fell to misdemeanors, but it’s domestic violence. You can bet that down the road, the antis would have with any misdemeanor you lose your Second Amendment rights. And the crazy thing about it is, if you commit harassment on someone who qualifies as a victim of domestic violence, such as a spouse, someone you had a dating relationship with, someone you are a shared household member with, either currently or previously, then that’s domestic violence, and you lose your gun rights for the state and the whole country. But if you go around all day long just harassing strangers, and you’ve been charged over and over again with harassing strangers, no problem. You don’t lose your gun rights. So, that’s the strange thing about how that law works.

Teddy Nappen 37:11
Yeah, so kind of going off of this whole touch on Red Flag laws. I was very curious, and I thought to myself, okay, who did it first? Who was the one who was responsible? Whose bright idea was it to create Red Flag laws? Why did this start? Because I find the way to argue with the Left is always look to history because they can’t do history. That’s the part that kills their argument.

Evan Nappen 37:51 When they try to rewrite it.
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Teddy Nappen 37:53
Well, that’s their only. Well, yeah, and that’s why they try to remove civics, which, you know, which they did. So, sure. But shown by this, it turns out the first Red Flag law was enacted in Connecticut in 1999. Apparently, from a New York Times article from 1998, being at the Connecticut lottery, where it was an old accountant who shot four of his supervisors and himself. That was their whole justification for Red Flag, where he apparently from what I am handgun. Others say.

Evan Nappen 38:37
Did you ever notice how every anti-gun law is always based on the lowest common denominator? In other words, they have to find an incident somewhere, and then they use what’s called the straw man technique. So, this is the straw man technique to further gun right suppression. That’s what they’re doing.

Teddy Nappen 39:00
Yeah. And actually, how they try to argue that, oh, if we had red flag laws, we would have been able to stop him. Except South Coast today. This was the article written when they interviewed people. This is their argument. Beck frightened some of his co-workers because it turns out he liked to play paintball. And had a gun.

Evan Nappen 39:24
Oh, paintball. Well, that does it, you know? And see how that’s twisted. And that’s, this is something I encounter, and you and I both have encountered in the system. Well, they’ll just twist it. Where normally you’d say, hey, the guy’s a target shooter. Oh, but he was a target shooter, you know, like, that’s somehow negative, or he played paintball, that’s a negative. Like, no. I mean the overwhelming, incredible, super majority of anybody who plays paintball as a target shooter. Or that matter, even a gun owner, does not commit crimes or wrong doings. It’s a very small number. Yet they want to try to take away everybody’s rights based on a few. And that’s not what it’s about.

Teddy Nappen 40:20
Also highlighting the fact that he was going bald, and so he shaved his head. Yeah, that’s the. Yeah. That’s the ultimate Red Flag, when you’re losing your hair.

Evan Nappen 40:35
I hope that doesn’t become a New Jersey disqualifier, because then I won’t be able to possess guns anymore in New Jersey. Because I’ve been getting pretty thin up there and, you know.

Teddy Nappen 40:46
And of course, they ended with “Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.” It was sign by his father’s door. Oh, yeah, okay.

Evan Nappen 40:56
Well, they’ll probably just increase the fee for hair. Like, the more hair, the cheaper, and the less hair, more expensive. Or maybe they’ll tax, like Russia, at one point they taxed beards. Remember I showed you that coin that was the tax paid so you could have a beard. Yeah, maybe New Jersey will have to
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have some kind of gun hair tax. And of course, there’ll be heavy licensing associated with that and having to do extensive background checks and hair follicle examination and all that good stuff.

Teddy Nappen 41:34
They also tried to argue for the reason being was he missed out on multiple promotions and wanted to be paid $2 more at his work. So, if anyone at all, who has ever been upset with their boss, and.

Evan Nappen 41:50 Wait a minute.

Teddy Nappen 41:50 Be paid more.

Evan Nappen 41:51
Maybe he also had his red stapler taken.

Teddy Nappen 41:57
Yeah, red stapler, his red stapler.

Evan Nappen 42:00
His red staples. Yeah, that also is a key indicator for any kind of a violent person. So, the excessive concerns over your red stapler.

Teddy Nappen 42:12
Yeah, so the entire birth of the Red Flag Law is based entirely on someone who would not have been red flagged. From what the evidence and things they brought up, then nothing would have brought up. This isn’t like, oh man, he and the factors, like, he’s upset about his work and going bald. Yeah, that’ll stop him.

Evan Nappen 42:32
Well, New Jersey has taken it to an even more extreme, because you have no due process on Red Flag up front. Zero, zip. Someone goes ex parte, meaning just them, talks to police. They get an order signed to seize your guns, search your house, traumatize you and your family, invade your privacy, steal your property, and you never know what happens until after it’s happened. And only afterwards, after you and your loved ones go through that entire traumatic experience, only then do you get to fight to try to get your guns and your gun rights back. It’s absolutely zero due process. When you hear the Left screaming about due process for you know, cartel members and all. Well, New Jersey doesn’t give due process to gun owners, right? Criminals, cartel, you name it, you know? Oh, they’re very concerned about due process, except when it comes to gun owners. Then, who cares about due process?

Teddy Nappen 43:35
Well, it’s and then this is a good point that was brought up to me. Whenever they say the words due process, or they say the words free speech, because that’s the new big thing always. Or democracy,
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free speech, TM, free speech, trademark, because they want to make it so they can have their free speech, not you or I. And their democracy, their version of democracy, where it’s mob rule on their end, where they have.

Evan Nappen 44:03
I don’t want democracy. And our Founding Fathers didn’t want democracy, and America is not a democracy. America is a republic. There is a huge difference between being a republic, a representative government, a republic and a democracy, a democracy creates a tyranny of the majority. Our Founding Fathers didn’t like it. It was demonstrated through history to be a failure, and how America got perverted into this idea that we’re somehow a democracy, I don’t know. Because we’re not a democracy, and I don’t want us to be one. We’re a republic, and we need to protect the republic.

Teddy Nappen 44:49
Pledge of Allegiance. That’s probably the reason why.

Evan Nappen 44:51
Yeah, I guess so. It’s another move by the enemies of liberty and freedom. Well, Teddy, this week’s GOFU, an important lesson in which the GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are expensive legal problems, but not always legal that gun owners end up making mistakes and paying dearly, and you get to learn from them for free. So, this week’s GOFU is about storing guns at someone else’s house. You cannot do that. I cannot tell you how many times we get cases of individuals who are storing their firearms at their parents’ house, and they don’t live there. Now, the gun owner doesn’t live there, and they’re just storing them at a parents’ house, right? Or a friend’s house, where they have other people’s guns in their safe from other places. You can’t do that in New Jersey, okay? You have to store your guns within an exempted property, such as your home or your place of business that you own. If you have your guns at your friend’s house, there’s no exemption for that. Plus it can be deemed a transfer to your friend, which would itself be unlawful. And then if your guns end up seized in an issue, and they’re taken and they end up finding them somewhere else, then they can not only use it to take away your gun rights, but to criminally charge you.

Evan Nappen 46:33
So, look, folks, if you’re going to store your guns, you store them lawfully under the exemptions which include at your home or at your place of business. That’s actually your place of business that you own. Or a FFL gun dealer that does gun storage, but short of that, you know also other exempted properties, such as at a range. But you can’t just have friends keep your guns. You can’t keep your friends guns. You can’t have your relatives guns. Your relatives can’t keep your guns. And this comes up a lot, and it is definitely a big GOFU.

Evan Nappen 47:14
This is Evan Nappen and Teddy Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.
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Speaker 2 47:26
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E256_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 211- Our Dreams Can Now Come TrueAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 211 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Trump victory, Second Amendment, executive orders, gun rights, pro-gun legislation, national constitutional carry, red flag laws, firearm transport, sensitive places, gun disqualifiers, Supreme Court, gun laws, gun ownership, gun rights, gun safety

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, Jordan Peterson, John Stossel

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. As you may recall, last week, we were left wondering what the future would hold for this show. We knew that Tuesday would be the most important day in modern American history and that what was at stake was nothing less than the future of our country, the future of our Second Amendment rights, the future of everything that makes us America. It was nothing less than that. I’m sure that all of you are just as thrilled with the result as I am, and I’m so glad to be with you today to talk about this amazing triumph by President Trump.

Evan Nappen 01:28
That man is nothing less than Herculean when you think about every challenge that he has met. Every low down, dirty thing that the other side could do to him they tried. They tried to defame him. They called him Hitler, Fascist, and Tyrant and all these things. They tried to lawfare him out of existence, and they failed. The media, the propaganda Imperial Media, in a drum beat of constant criticism and opposing him, and they failed. Assassination attempts. No less than three, if you include the Iranian plot, of which all the investigation has been released. He’s overcome all these challenges. It is nothing less than astounding.

Evan Nappen 02:43
Now, he has won, and he’s not just won. He didn’t just win the Electoral College. He won it by a landslide and crushed the blue wall. He won the popular vote. He has a mandate from the people. We see that the Republicans on his coattails have sailed to taking the Senate, and it appears that they will also take control of the House, which means we have the trifecta. We have complete control of all three houses of the Federal Government, all three branches, and we have our hero. The most amazing, toughest motherfucker on the planet is now our President Elect, and it is just amazing. I am thrilled beyond belief, and what the future holds here is so exciting. Not just to save our country and all the issues that we care about beyond guns, from the economy to immigration to crime to energy.

Evan Nappen 04:15
Not only that but look at the team. The team of amazing people that he has working with him to achieve this victory and now to serve with their incredible intellects, skills, and experience to make America, as

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President Trump said, “The New Golden Age”. That’s an understatement. I am convinced we are going to be the greatest single nation ever to exist in humanity’s time. I am so looking forward to seeing this, and our issue, our Second Amendment rights, will ride along as well in being protected. There are so many great things that are going to happen. Let’s talk about the things that President Trump has said he’s going to do, and the things that I hope we see happen as the legislature moves ahead. This is probably the greatest opportunity for us to enhance our Second Amendment rights since the election of Ronald Reagan. No exaggeration. Probably better even.

Evan Nappen 05:45
So, let me start here with an article that was written by Lee Williams called “A Blueprint for Trump’s First 30 days”. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a-blueprint-for-trumps-first-30-days/) I want to cut into his discussion of the Second Amendment, and then I’m going to add a lot of my own information for you to consider. One of the things that Mr. Williams points out, and it’s really exciting, is that President Trump said in May that he will end the more than fifty Executive Orders that Joe Biden issued oppressing our gun rights. President Trump will reverse all that oppression that the senile sock puppet laid upon us. Remember, Biden’s Executive Orders covered firearms and accessories. All kinds of things.

Evan Nappen 07:02
From privately made firearms, which they want to call “ghost guns”, you know, kit guns. Going at mandating serial numbers, getting the groundwork laid to have Universal Background Checks. Gun registration, which leads to the four words that you all should know by now. Legislation, Registration, Confiscation and Extermination. Also, stabilizing braces. Getting that gone. Going at the so-called “safe storage” requirements. Remember, Biden even created this absolute bullshit Task Force to go at 3D- printed firearms and so-called “Full Auto conversion devices” that are already prohibited and regulated as machine guns.

Evan Nappen 08:04
Here’s a quote from President Trump. “In my second term, we will roll back every Biden attack on the Second Amendment — the attacks are fast and furious — starting the minute that Crooked Joe shuffles his way out of the White House.” God, I love that man. Trump is just the best. Trump also said that he would fire Steve Dettelbach, the anti-gun choice to lead ATF, and also he will go at the White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention and the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which has billions for “Red Flag” laws that take away and oppress us with no due process, taking our guns and gun rights. Trump also said that he will appoint a pro-gun Attorney General “who will stop the weaponization of government against lawful gun ownership and who will prioritize traditional law enforcement by catching and punishing criminals.”

Evan Nappen 09:33
This is just so exciting. It is just invigorating. And, of course, with President Trump back in office and with the Senate in full control of the Republicans, SCOTUS, the Supreme Court of the United States, is safe. Safe from the progressive left oppressors packing the court and changing its dedication to the upholding of our Constitutional rights, particularly the Second Amendment. Don’t underestimate the impact of that. It was President Trump, in his first term, that got us three pro-gun judges that got us the

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Bruen decision. Now with President Trump retaking the office, we will see a greater, stronger Supreme Court from his efforts. So, this is just magnificent.

Evan Nappen 10:45
Now, in addition to those great things, which are just wonderful in and of themselves, I also believe we’re going to see and should see, and I would hope to see progress on legislative goals and getting pro-gun rights legislation passed and made law. We need what essentially would be a brand new Gun Owners or Firearm Owners Protection Act. Remember, Reagan signed the original. We can put a package together or get these things done individually. And I think these things should include, number one, National Constitutional Carry. The legislator, Rep. Thomas Massey (R-KY) has put a proposed bill forward. (https://massie.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=395664) National reciprocity is obsolete, my friends. The time now is for National Constitutional Carry, so that every law- abiding American can carry the most effective means to defend themselves without needing a permission slip from any Government. And we can make this happen. We absolutely can.

Evan Nappen 12:14
We can repeal the Hughes Amendment. The Hughes Amendment banned new production of fully automatic firearms and that can go. It wasn’t even properly passed to begin with. There are no reason why law-abiding citizens cannot possess firearms. Who cares if it fires one bullet, or more than one bullet, with the pull of a trigger? What a false distinction about anything. It’s a gun. It’s a personal firearm. It’s protected by the Second Amendment, and we should be able to have them and own them. They should be able to be made. The Hughes Amendment needs to go.

Evan Nappen 13:03
We need not more “Red Flag” laws, but a national ban on “Red Flag” laws that violate due process, that take our rights, that take our guns, which are used as a tool of disenfranchisement of our rights and used as a tool to steal our guns and our rights. These things are no good. New Jersey is a glowing example of their abuse. And it is time. We can get that passed, too, and at a minimum, ensure that any state that has such a law that there is absolute protection of due process before any action gets taken. The complete opposite of what happens in New Jersey. I want to see the federal disqualifiers for owning guns pulled back. For example, the prohibition on whether somebody uses marijuana or not is absurd. That should not be a gun disqualifier. Many states have legalized marijuana. No matter how you feel about marijuana. It is wrong to, on one hand, have the legalization and then make it, if you use it, you’re banned from having guns. Should you say anybody that uses alcohol at all is banned from having guns? It’s just as stupid. It’s got to go.

Evan Nappen 14:46
But we need to go even further than that. We have prohibitions that prohibit felons from having firearms. Now, some folks may say, well, I don’t want felons to have guns. But you have to understand that the ban on felons having guns originated with it being “violent felons”, violent felons. Then suddenly the need to make just violent felons be prohibited gets expanded to felons generally. Then felons generally was expanded to misdemeanors. That’s right. People who commit misdemeanors that fall under domestic violence. So, now it’s no longer violent felons or felons, but misdemeanors. Then anyone with a civil restraining order. That isn’t even a criminal conviction. And it’s done in a summary

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manner, and you lose your gun rights. It’s the slippery slope of gun banning by disqualifier. We need to pull these back, if not completely eliminate them.

Evan Nappen 15:58
All these broad stroke disqualifiers instantly disenfranchising individuals who present no current threat. Let me tell you this. We should at least have a mechanism in federal law that you can get any disqualified rights restored with some process at the federal level. The way ATF used to have the Relief From Disability, where you could get your rights back if you were able to show that you were not a danger, that you were not a threat, that you were not a problem. You could regain those rights. Right now, if you have any Federal felony conviction, you can’t get your rights restored.

Evan Nappen 16:51
As we’ve talked about before, there’s institutionalized racism throughout our convicted felons, where blacks are six to one to whites convicted felons. Hispanics are two to one. And yet, no mechanism is available for those individuals to regain their rights. Even though they’ve proven themselves to be good, hard working people that have reformed and are no danger to anyone. We can get laws passed to fix and change this to regain Second Amendment rights, at least for those that are no threat. Honest citizens that should not be stripped of this fundamental right.

Evan Nappen 17:37
We need to repeal the FSA, the Federal Switchblade Act. That archaic, stupid knife law that was passed in response to the media of the ’50s. You know, West Side Story and James Dean. Everyone knew the cause of youth violence was a switchblade knife. I mean, come on, already. The automatic knife is no more dangerous than any other pocketknife or fixed blade knife. The Government, in defending in the federal case against the Switchblade Act said, oh no, no. This challenge shouldn’t continue because we don’t enforce it anymore. Well, if it’s not enforced anymore, take it off the damn books! It’s time.

Evan Nappen 18:31
We need to strengthen the provisions that allow us to transport our firearms interstate under the interstate transport law, Title 18, 926A. This lets you go from one place where you legally can possess firearms, possess and carry, from one place to another where you can possess and carry, as long as your guns are cased, unloaded, not readily accessible from the passenger compartment, etc. Well, we need to enhance that and make it so we can transport our guns. Tie it into national reciprocity as well. Make it so these little anti-gun rights bastions of gun rights suppression, can no longer turn law-abiding citizens into criminals who travel from other states with their guns. It needs serious enhancement. We can tie it in to that national reciprocity.

Evan Nappen 19:32
We need to enable the ability for non-residents to buy handguns in other states. We have a National Instant Check System (NICS). Why can a resident only buy a handgun in their resident state? We can buy long arms in other states, as long as the dealer obeys the law of the dealer state and the non- resident state. Why shouldn’t that apply to handguns as well? You know, in the Gun Owner Protection Act where we got the ability to buy long arms in other states, it originally included handguns as well. It

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was a gun rights oppressor in the Senate that got “handguns” removed. It’s time to put it back, so that we can buy handguns anywhere in America! As long as you follow the law, you should be able to buy it and not be restricted by residency. Especially in today’s age where we move around the country easily and over state borders. This needs to change.

Evan Nappen 20:39
This right now is the greatest opportunity we have ever had to change the entire dynamic, to enhance our rights, and to remove these horrible gun laws. I’m confident that President Trump will do his utmost to see it accomplished, and we need the Republicans in the legislature, both houses, to get these laws passed now, while they have the power to do so. We’re going to keep talking about these things, and I’m excited for our future, my friends. I’m sure you are as well. At least you should be. By the way, let me just add one quick thought. Do you know what Willie Brown and the 2024 election have in common? Kamala blew both of them! Anyway, I think that was just the best joke of the entire election, and I thought I’d share it with you.

Evan Nappen 22:01
I want to mention to you about our great State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the NRA affiliate and the state Association. They are the number one gun rights defender in New Jersey, and I’m proud that they’re a sponsor of our show. The Association is fighting so hard in New Jersey. They are making tremendous progress on the court cases, challenging the carry case, the carry killer law, challenging the assault firearm, you know, the modern sporting rifle ban and the standard capacity magazine ban. We’ve been able to get Attorney General opinions helping our gun owners. I’ve used a number of those opinions just this week to save gun owners from being destroyed by New Jersey gun laws. Your state Association needs you. You need to be a member. Go to anjrpc.org and join today. Be part of the solution. It’s critical. When you join, you’ll be sent the email alerts. You’ll know what shenanigans are going on in Trenton. You’ll be able to follow the legislative and judicial fights, and you’ll be on top of any issues that require your attention, so that we can fight in a unified way.

Evan Nappen 23:37
I also want to mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a fantastic indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. Right there in Central Jersey. Easily accessible off the Parkway. WeShoot runs all kinds of exciting events. They have a great range with super folks there. It’s where I shoot. It’s where my family shoots and where I got my training. Well, I want to mention that WeShoot has something great coming up. It’s really great. It’s the 2A Diversity Shoot. Do you know what a diversity shoot is? It’s a wonderful expression of diversity. It is “Equal Rights, Equal Sites”. What the diversity shoot is, of course, is a good friend and great man, the legendary Tony Simon. He is known as the mightiest gun bunny in the land. He is hosting the 2A4E, Second Amendment For Everyone, diversity shoot at WeShoot on November 21st. Set your sights on that date. It’s from 6pm to 9pm at WeShoot in Lakewood, and it’s only $20. That’s it. Only 20 bucks.

Evan Nappen 24:58
You get to spend the evening with Tony Simon. He is “the heavyweight of hilarity”. For a session more thrilling than a high caliber burst. Target the newest tech. Pull the trigger on testing the newest firearms,

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including some great rifles as well. Feast on firepower. Enjoy free pizza and refreshments, including Kosher options from the KAVA coffee house, because at the range, diversity is everything that WeShoot does. Prize targets in sight. Keep your eyes sharp. Fabulous prizes await those with a keen aim. Fully loaded fun. They’ve got it all. The targets, the gun rentals, and the ammo. All courtesy of 2A4E sponsors at WeShoot. So, don’t miss it, folks. Reserve your place now and put it on your calendar to go see Tony Simon. Go to weshootusa.com. That’s where you can find them. Their website is weshootusa.com. They have a fantastic day planned here. You can participate in the famous diversity shoot and stand up for genuine diversity, the real deal, and at the same time support Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 26:35
Let me also mention to you my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It is the book you need to navigate the insanity of New Jersey’s gun laws. It’s 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. It is utilized by the New Jersey State Police Firearms Division. It’s utilized by judges, lawyers, and, most importantly, thousands of New Jersey gun law, not gun lawyers, gun owners. There are some gun lawyers that use it, including yours truly. I frequently refer to my own book, and I’m sure you will too. So, if you want to get your copy, go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. Surprisingly, it’s my name. EvanNappen.com. You will see the big orange book there. Just click it and order your copy. You’ll have it in a matter of days. When you get it, scan the front cover so you get in my free subscriber database. That is private, and it’s free. That way you can access the archives for the updates. And let me tell you, folks, there’s going to be a lot of great updates, that’s for sure. So, you want to be on top of it. We’ve got great things coming in the future here, and you can access other information that I put there for my subscribers only. You’ll get the emails from me giving you a heads up so what’s coming down the pike, or things you need to know that have already happened. So, go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy today.

Evan Nappen 28:12
So, I want to share with you today a little clip of two of the folks that I have tremendous respect for and that I really admire. One is a fellow by the name of Jordan Peterson. If you’ve never heard him or listened to him, he’s great. And also, John Stossel, who is great. I’ve met John Stossel, too, and he is dedicated to defending our rights. He had as a guest, Jordan Peterson, and this clip is something that I want all of you to hear and to think about. By the way, check out more about Jordan Peterson and John Stossel and the great work that they do. But listen to this clip, my friends. I think you will enjoy it. Mr. Producer, if you please.

Jordan Peterson 29:10
It’s very helpful for people to hear that they should make themselves competent and dangerous and take their proper place in the world.

John Stossel 29:16
Competent and dangerous? Why dangerous?

Jordan Peterson 29:19
Because it’s the alternative to being weak, and weak is not good

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John Stossel 29:24
By dangerous, that implies I should be ready to threaten someone, to hurt somebody.

Jordan Peterson 29:29
No, you should be capable of it. But that doesn’t mean you should use it. Those who have swords and know how to use them, but keep them sheathed will inherit the world. That’s a way better way of thinking about it. There’s nothing to you, otherwise. Like if you’re not a formidable force, there’s no morality in your self-control. If you’re incapable of violence, not being violent isn’t a virtue. Capacity for danger and the capacity for control is what brings about the virtue. Otherwise, you confuse weakness with moral virtue. I’m harmless, therefore I’m good. It’s like, no, that isn’t how it works. That isn’t how it works at all. If you’re harmless, you’re just weak, and if you’re weak, you’re not going to be good. You can’t be. Because it takes strength to be good. It’s very difficult to be good.

Evan Nappen 30:11
I love that, and I think you did, too. Think about it, folks. When they talk about gun violence and when they want to take away our guns, they want to take away our morality. They want to make us weak. They don’t want us to be able to be “dangerous”, but we need to be dangerous. We need to have that ability, but not harm innocent people. Of course not. The idea as so beautifully expressed there is clear, and that’s what we, as gun owners, want to be, and what we strive to be. We have to be formidable. We have to be formidable. It’s being formidable that makes us who we need to be, to be moral and to have that ability. This is really great stuff.

Evan Nappen 31:17
And as gun owners, I think it really hits home. Because people who don’t understand that, people who aren’t willing to step up to the plate to be a defender, to be a protector, those people are weak. Those that are protectors and those that take on that responsibility, take it seriously and soberly and have a commitment to defending themselves and their loved ones and innocent persons. Those are the people that I love and respect the most. That’s the key. It’s the key, and it goes to the heart of, really, why we have firearms for defense. Why our Founding Fathers recognized it and made it the Second Amendment. They were incredibly moral people.

Evan Nappen 32:18
These are things you don’t normally hear in the Imperial Propaganda Media, but it’s something that has to be presented and become part of how you think and how you view yourself and the world. That’s why I wanted to share it with you, because it is that impactful. Both John Stossel and Jordan Peterson have great things to say, and I would encourage you to look further into both of their works. You will find many things that will improve your own life and your own outlook on life. How you guide yourself through life and understand the very things that make us who we are.

Evan Nappen 33:22
Now, I’ve got a letter here from the Ask Evan files, and this is from Bill, regarding carry in the car. He says, Hi Evan. I’m a loyal fan of your book and your podcast. I have a clarifying question that I’m sure I’m not the only one to have. I have a PTC, and I carry to work. My client does not allow concealed

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carry so I leave it locked in the car, unloaded. If I go to lunch with clients and drive them, I don’t want them to know I carry. Is it okay to leave the gun locked in its case, in the car, unloaded while going to and from lunch? I’m sure that’s not the only scenario where this can happen, but it is my situation. What do I say if I’m stopped by police? I know I have a Duty to Disclose, but is it okay to transport firearms in this situation?

Evan Nappen 34:06
This is a question that comes up a lot, and it’s important to know. Now, you can carry at work unless your work prohibits you. But if there’s no prohibition and your work is not in a sensitive place, then there’s nothing that stops you from carrying a work if you have a carry permit. In this case, Bill’s client does not allow concealed carry. So, he locks it in his car. You have the ability to secure and lock your firearm. Now, if your employer doesn’t allow firearms on their property, then you could have a problem with your employer and your employment. So, if you’re going to choose to work there, you have to follow the rules of your employer. But if you are transporting and you’re stopped by police, then, yes, you do have a Duty to Disclose. Even if you’re transporting and you have a carry permit. As I’ve discussed, you still have to disclose, and you have to produce your carry permit for the officer. So, this can create that situation, but you’re not prohibited unless you have a relationship or some other rules at your place of employment, or if it’s a sensitive place. If it’s not a sensitive place and if there is no policy that you’re in violation of, then nothing is there to make it unlawful or improper for you to be carrying. It’s how it actually works.

Evan Nappen 35:44
But this does roll into this week’s GOFU. The GOFU, as I’m sure you know, the most popular segment on the show, is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do we talk about GOFUs? Because the GOFU is an expensive lesson that somebody else has learned, that you get to learn for free. This week’s GOFU is about making sure that you are aware of the sensitive places, and you don’t risk carrying in the sensitive places. I know that seems obvious. But, my friends, I keep getting cases of individuals that unfortunately ended up carrying in a sensitive place, whether knowing or unknowingly, and it ends up escalating to where you’re going to lose your gun rights, possibly become a convicted felon, and go to prison. It’s an enormous risk. It’s enormous. You have to be diligent. You cannot risk it. You need to follow and obey the sensitive places until we wipe them out in the court case. Particularly the case being brought by the Association, by ANJRPC. Until then, you must obey and abide by them. Otherwise, you can be personally destroyed.

Evan Nappen 37:22
And when you are carrying, make sure you carry concealed, and it stays concealed. Not only is it required to be concealed, but the concealment helps you. It helps you because it’s not being seen by others. You’re not revealing your defensive edge. Why would you want to reveal your edge? Your protection? Keep it concealed for your own personal edge in protecting yourself. But also, if it’s concealed, then it is not going to be seen by others who can then make false allegations against you for possibly carrying in a sensitive place, or claiming you are carrying in a sensitive place. I have actual cases with this scenario. If a gun can be seen, then the police can be called, and you then will suffer. Don’t be a GOFU. Keep your gun concealed. Make sure it stays concealed and be super cognizant of

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what is a sensitive place. Don’t make yourself vulnerable to being destroyed by New Jersey’s gun rights oppression laws.

Evan Nappen 38:56
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 39:06
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E211_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 210-Freedom of the Western World…It’s ALL on the line this timeAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 210 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

presidential election, gun rights, Kamala Harris, red flag laws, universal background checks, assault weapons ban, high capacity magazines, gun registration, gun confiscation, Supreme Court, Trump presidency, gun training, carry permit, mental health questions, gun applications

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, in just a few days the most important single historic event in our lifetime is going to take place, and that’s no exaggeration. It is the presidential election, of course, and it cannot be overstated how critical and important this election is. Not just to our gun rights, but to everything that makes us America. Our futures are in the balance. But let’s start by discussing what matters most to us, and that is gun rights and the Second Amendment.

Evan Nappen 01:11
Just on that issue, how do we distinguish these candidates and what is the future going to hold when it when it comes to our gun rights? If Kommiela becomes President, I’ll tell you simple enough. You can go to her website (https://kamalaharris.com/), and under “issues” look for “Make Our Communities Safer From Gun Violence And Crime.” (https://kamalaharris.com/issues/) So, we have the propaganda right away. This is the gaslighting that the left, the Democrats, and her entire team love to push. What Kamala is committing to doing is, “She’ll ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines, require universal background checks, and support red flag laws that keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people.” She has refused to go over or put out her policies as to how she’s going to implement these things. You know, there’s no reason to ever talk specifics. And she argues that as a “gun owner”, because she’s a gun owner, these are common sense laws, right

Evan Nappen 02:40
So, first of all, she claims to be a gun owner and that does not amount to anything in my book. I don’t care if you’re a gun owner. The greatest tyrants in history all owned guns, if firearms existed at the time that they were doing their thing. Every evil, horrible, dictator, tyrant, fascist, you name it, they’re all gun owners. That doesn’t mean they respected gun rights. Not one bit. And neither does she. If she even is a gun owner, who knows, because you know she lies about so much. But it’s not about being a gun owner. It’s about whether or not you’re a gun rights oppressor. And, of course, she is.

Evan Nappen 03:32
So, let’s break down her three key issues that she at least is willing to mention as they run their stealth campaign of just bland things to evoke emotions without any substance. But we understand where she’s coming from. She wants to take gun rights. She wants to oppress gun rights. Let’s look at each of

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these issues, because not only do we need you to vote and get out there and vote, but also you need to get others to vote. If you end up in discussions with other gun owners who aren’t getting off their ass and voting because apathy amongst gun owners is an actual thing. You’ve got to get these people out there and folks that are, you know, middle of the ground, or they’re not really sure, and maybe they’ve even swallowed some of the propaganda. Let’s talk about how to deal with these issues, even individually, in your discussion.

Evan Nappen 04:40
Okay, so let’s talk first about Kommiela’s desire for Red Flag laws. What is the Red Flag Law? Well, we have Red Flag law in New Jersey already, and it’s a nightmare. It’s horrible. New Jersey calls them Extreme Risk Protection Orders (ERPOs). Basically, it is the ability to take your guns without due process. That’s the simplest way to understand it. When I say without due process, I mean it. Because the way the red flag laws work is it just takes an anonymous phone call, or even an anonymous email. I have a case with just an email, anonymous, and looking at ancient social media posts. Coming and seizing guns, raiding the household, invading your privacy, taking your rights until finally, after the damage gets done, you get a hearing. Well, this is what Red Flag in reality is. It’s an absolute intrusion into our Civil Rights, our privacy, our gun rights.

Evan Nappen 05:56
The other side sells it by saying, oh, we just want to stop criminals, domestic abusers, or those who’ve been mentally adjudicated by a court that can’t possess firearms. Yeah, except it isn’t that. They always pick the extreme examples and then make it as broad and as sweeping as they possibly can so that your rights, my rights, our rights, get crushed, and that is their game. They expand this so that anyone who’s your friend or your neighbor or family member, even a doctor, can make a report that you’re a danger and boom, without due process, your guns get seized, your house gets searched, and your property taken. That’s it. That’s what red flags really are.

Evan Nappen 06:53
They are what the Gestapo did with their warrant disk, little coins they had that were hooked to a little key ring to show that they could search anywhere they wanted. Red Flag is basically that, just without an actual warrant disk. They just file the paper with the anonymous bullshit, and you’re subject to it. It’s terrible. It is unbelievable that it is taking place. This is something she wants to push nationally. Nationally. We have to stop it, and in New Jersey, we’re working on trying to do that. Not have it expand nationally. And you, of course, can get swatted by these things and that has happened. Your life gets put in danger by these things, these so-called Red Flags. Because the police come there and a person is considered an extreme risk, you’re there and don’t even know it’s happening. You come to the door with a gun, because you don’t know who’s raiding your house and hitting your house, and next thing you know, you’re shot and killed. This has happened. This is extremely dangerous, and it is rights oppression in its purest form.

Evan Nappen 08:18
Kamala also wants Universal Background Checks. Oh, boy. UBC. So, what is a Universal Background Check? Essentially, anytime you hear those words, think Universal Gun Registration. Now, some folks may say, well, what’s the benefit of a Universal Background Check? Well, what a Universal Background

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Check is supposedly for is that all purchases, private purchases as well as from dealers, must go through a licensed dealer and you must get checked. All purchases, whether private or not, must go through a licensed dealer and have a check. So, it ends private sales. And what it means is that every sale is now recorded. Every sale is now documented. Every sale becomes a form of registration. And they’re actively registering on these sales. A billion, almost a billion dealer records have been computerized, data based. Yeah, what do you think that’s for? Why do you think that is? It’s not for solving crime. It’s never solved a crime. That’s not what it’s about.

Evan Nappen 09:33
It’s about the four words, Legislation which leads to Registration, which leads to Confiscation and then Extermination. That, my friends, is a pattern that’s repeated all throughout history, before every major Holocaust. Not wanting to go down that path. Even though Kamala and her crew are calling Trump a Fascist and the tyrant and the dictator, we all know the truth. The truth is that’s what they really are. That’s how they act. Look at what they do. They crush rights, suppress our freedom of speech, suppress our gun rights. I mean, they do all the things that Fascists do. When Trump was President, he didn’t do things that Fascists do. But that’s what we’ve been experiencing. We’ve got to end this. This is our chance, and Universal Background Check is an extreme danger for us.

Evan Nappen 10:32
Sometimes folks say, well, you know, we’ve got to shut the gun show loophole and that’s why we need Universal Background Checks. That is how they try to sell it. But the gun show loophole is false. There is no gun show loophole. If anybody out-of-state wants to buy a gun, it has to go through a dealer. Private sales within a state are private sales. Period. You make private sales in a state under that state’s laws. There’s no loophole to a gun show. It’s crap! Universal Background Check is just pushing further down the road of eventually taking all the guns. Universal background Checks don’t stop criminals. 43% of criminals who use firearms purchase them from illegal dealers, and that’s from ATF 2021 statistics, folks. This is something we have to fight.

Evan Nappen 11:40
Yet, this is the propaganda, and this is the rights suppression that’s going to come your way. And remember, these are just the building blocks to their eventual goal of taking all the guns. She has admitted she wants to confiscate guns. She said it. Now she’s denying it, because it’s the election. But it’s on video, multiple times. No problem going into homes to take guns. No problem banning guns, confiscating guns. Come on. Suddenly now, oh no, no. I mean, they flip flop all the time, but once they get in office, we see what happens. Look what dementia Joe did with all those Administrative regs and all that expansion that, luckily, the Supreme Court has shot down. That’s just what he did. She’s going to be even worse.

Evan Nappen 12:35
What about banning assault weapons and high capacity mags? Well, again, here we go down the same road again. What is an “assault firearm”? It’s this undefined thing. Do they mean modern sporting rifles? Well, in that case, that’s all it is. A modern sporting rifle. You know, true Sturmgewehrs, the original assault rifle, are full auto. Full auto and semi-auto. They were select fire. They are medium caliber guns, not higher power. They’re made for urban fighting. But that’s not what assault weapons that they

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want to ban. They want to ban our semi-automatics. That’s it, and as many of them as they can scoop up. As many millions of guns as they can grab and put under that banner.

Evan Nappen 13:29
I mean, look, when New Jersey banned assault firearms, it included.22s, Marlin Model 60s. It still includes many ..22s today, and worse. This is what we already went through nationally in 1994 with the so-called assault weapon ban. It accomplished nothing. It did not affect crime. It has no effect on crime, but it does limit our capacity to defend ourselves. I wrote an article, and it’s in my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It was even published in Harper’s Magazine. It was called “101 Reasons Why You Need an Assault Firearm.” So, if anyone ever says, why do you need one? Just refer them to my article. I gave 101 reasons why you need them. I’m not going to go through them now, but you can read them if you wish in my book. Now’s a good time, I think, to shamelessly plug my book. Go to EvanNappen.com and get a copy of New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. You will find “101 Reasons Why You Need an Assault Firearm” in the Question and Answer chapter about trying to understand New Jersey’s insane assault firearm ban.

Evan Nappen 14:46
But Kommiela wants to make it national yet again. She also wants to ban so-called standard capacity magazines that they claim are high capacity magazines. Now think about this. What is the capacity of a magazine that is acceptable? And to that question, I ask another question. How many bullets is your life worth? Is your life worth only 10 bullets? Or is your life worth maybe 12 bullets? How about 15? How many bullets is your life worth when you have to defend your life? Because that’s what they want to limit. They want to limit how many bullets you can have to defend your life. It has no effect on crime. As a matter of fact, only 3% of all homicides were committed just with rifles, no less semi-automatic rifles, or so-called assault rifles. Only 3% of all homicides. Criminals prefer handguns 86% when committing a crime.

Evan Nappen 16:03
You know, sometimes you hear them say, oh, well, we have to protect the children. The children. And they say that firearms are the largest killer of children, but that is actually really skewed, manipulated statistics. Because those statistics include 19 year olds. Do you consider a 19 year old a child? A 19 year old who died in gang related violence. Gee, that’s not the picture that comes to mind when they’re talking about being a killer of kids, is it? That’s what they include in their statistics. When looking at the ages of 12 to 14, accidents, and I don’t mean gun accidents, I just mean accidents, are the number one cause of death of children. Accidents. Not firearms.

Evan Nappen 16:56
So, there are no studies, nothing out there that shows an assault weapon ban or high capacity magazine ban lowers crime. It’s a lie. She’s a lie. She’s a fake, and she’s an oppressor. If you want to fight for your gun rights, if you want to save your guns, we’ve got to keep this fight. We need President Trump to win. Because it’ll affect gun rights beyond stopping Kamala and her anti-gun rights oppression agenda. With Trump as President, you will be able to appoint Supreme Court justices. Remember, a number of our greatest conservative justice are getting pretty old. We’ve got to keep the Court pro Constitution, pro Second Amendment. President Trump, last time, was able to get three conservative

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judges on that court. It’s a reason that we have the Bruen decision today, that is helping to fight gun rights oppression. So, it’s critical for the Supreme Court.

Evan Nappen 18:13
It’s also critical for ending the agency abuse. Right now, our agencies, our Government agencies, are out of control. Not just the ATF with all their agency overreach, but all the other alphabet of agencies are out of control. Trump will get rid of agency after agency. He’s going to riff agencies reduction in force, because he has to get rid of the deep state, and he will. He has the greatest team. Look at his team of folks that will join him to get this mission accomplished. From Elon Musk in charge of government efficiency, and then Vivek Ramaswamy focused. As a matter of fact, it was Vivek talking about how they can get rid of these agencies by using the Supreme Court law regarding Chevron deference and how so many of these agencies have passed all these agency rules that are no good and executively, these can be wiped out, eliminated by President Trump, under the case law by the Supreme Court justifying getting rid of them. Once those regs are gone, when you cut half or a third of them away, you don’t need the agencies, and that way we end bureaucracy, the stranglehold. Not just on our rights, but on our economics, our business, etc.

Evan Nappen 19:53
This is the most important election in probably a in century. It is. it cannot be overstated. You have to get out and vote. You have to bring others out to vote. We need President Trump, not just to win the Presidency by way of the Electoral College. We need him to win the popular vote. We have to make it too big to rig. Not only are all these incredibly important things such as the economy, immigration, all these things that are at stake here, but we also have a chance for America to enter into a new golden age. A chance for the United States to be the greatest nation, the greatest country ever to exist, during the entire existence of humanity. We have this opportunity to make us the greatest, strongest, best, highest quality of life, highest standard of living that humans have ever achieved. It can be done with President Trump and his team.

Evan Nappen 21:22
Versus in this election, what is probably the end of Western civilization, folks. Endless wars, probably nuclear war, economic downfall. America becoming, at best, a third world country. Our enemies are seeing the weakness and having war through weakness. It couldn’t be any starker, the contrast or the choice. This is it. I hope that by my next show, we are happy and just psyched up beyond belief for the brightest future that I could ever envision ahead of us, as opposed to the opposite. Because if it’s the opposite, folks, we’re in for it. We’re going to have a lot of suffering, a lot of struggles, and our future will look very, very dim. So, make sure you do your part. Get out there and get others to go with you. By the next Gun Lawyer, we will know the answers, and let’s hope and pray. This is it. This is the one that counts.

Evan Nappen 22:51
Now, let me tell you about WeShoot. WeShoot is a gun range in Lakewood. They have a lot of training that they are offering, and I want to give you some specifics about some really cool stuff that WeShoot is offering. WeShoot has the New Jersey concealed carry course. They can get you your CCARE, and they have limited spaces available now. So, go get your carry. They also are offering Utah carry, so you

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can get your Utah non-resident. That can add Florida and Virginia and Arizona as add-ons. They’re offering the Utah carry to get that. Plus, WeShoot is offering New York City non-resident. You can go there, and you can get your certification and get your carry for New York. WeShoot is also offering NRA Basic Pistol, which is the number one firearms introductory class in the world. So, if you’re a newbie, you can take that NRA Basic Pistol course.

Evan Nappen 24:23
They’re also offering Samurai Range Day. That’s right. Samurai Range Day with Master Builder Mark H., founder of Precision Firearms and Samurai Firearms. (November 16 and 17 – 12 Noon to 6 PM – No registration required). WeShoot can also help you become a Certified Instructor. They’re offering the USCCA Instructor Development Course. They’re also offering the USCCA Advanced Carry class if you want to take your concealed carry skills to the next level. They’re doing weekend classes, too. Every type of training you need. They are a top facility. You need to check out WeShoot. Go to weshootusa.com. Tell them you heard it on Gun Lawyer. They’ll treat you like family. They always do. They’re the best. It’s where I train and shoot and so do my family. Go to weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 25:24
As we continue this fight, remember to make sure that you belong to the state Association. That’s right. That is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC is the NRA affiliate for our state, the official one. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton looking out for our rights and checking on all the shenanigans that take place in Trenton. They also are the guys and gals litigating in federal court, as we speak, challenging the Carry Killer Bill, challenging New Jersey’s assault firearm law and large capacity magazine law. Oh yeah, they’re there and doing so much more. By you being a member, you’ll be getting a fantastic newsletter. You’re getting email alerts. They have tremendous resources, and they do a great job in New Jersey. I’m proud to be a part of the Association. You need to be a member. Go to anjrpc.org. ANJRPC.org. Make sure you join today and be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 26:45
Now, I’ve gotten a lot of great letters, and I love the letters. I have a letter here from Harry who says, regarding magazine compliance. Yeah, it’s always good to review that. I have magazines that are blocked by the previous owner of one of my guns. The mag has a 17 round body and markings. The mags are blocked to 10 rounds and epoxied. The gun shop says these magazines are illegal. And any round marking above 10 has to be permanently defaced. Is this true? What is the process to block mags and make them compliant? I have a friend in PA who would block mags for me.

Evan Nappen 27:24
Okay, here’s the deal. The defacement thing is absolutely ridiculous. No, there’s no need to “deface” what it says. But they do have to be permanently blocked, permanently blocked. So, epoxy is permanent. You know, welded, epoxied. Permanently blocked is the key. It cannot be temporarily blocked. And it doesn’t matter what it says on the magazine. If it says 17 or even if it says 10, because even if it says 10 but holds 11 or more, you’re in trouble. If it says 17 or 20 but only holds 10, you’re not in trouble. So, don’t go defacing numbers on the mag. As a matter of fact, defacing a firearm is a crime, and they might even try to allege it if you deface a mag. It’s part of the gun. Who knows? I don’t put anything past them, if you actually defaced a firearm. But anyway, the bottom line is, you don’t need to

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deface it. You do need to make sure it’s permanently blocked. If it is permanently blocked, it’s not unlawful in New Jersey. Remember, possession of a large capacity magazine in New Jersey is a felony level offense that carries up to a year and a half in State Prison. They don’t want you to have too many bullets to protect your life. They have to limit how many cartridges you’re permitted to have to defend yourself. Because, you know, criminals don’t pay attention to that stuff. But they’ve got to keep oppressing the gun rights of law-abiding gun owners, and that’s one of the ways they do it.

Evan Nappen 29:12
I have a letter here from Frank. Frank writes two questions. Can out-of-state residents qualify in your state for a carry license and do your passport photos get attached to the application? So, here’s the answer, Frank. Yes, non-residents can easily apply. Go right online to the State Police website and apply for your out of state permit to carry a handgun. (https://www.njportal.com/NJSP/ConcealedCarry/) Photos are done electronically. They’re automatically put in when you use the online app. So, for both resident and non-resident carry permits, you do it right online via the state police website, and you download the photos. It’s actually, I’m shocked to say, improved. So, there you go. It’s an improvement over the old paper application and then being subject to right suppression by New Jersey judges. That’s no longer the case since the Bruen decision, whose majority opinion was written by St Thomas. That is Justice Thomas, who we call St. Thomas, because he’s the greatest and we love him. The power of Bruen continues.

Evan Nappen 30:33
Now Anthony says regarding carry permit references and questionnaires. Who sends them out? Who deals with it? Well, again, that’s all done now electronically when you apply. The important thing is to make sure your references are ready and waiting to get the email. As soon as you put in the application, they’ll be sent an email to reply to their references. Make sure they do it right away, and that will avoid the delay. It’s simply done over email. It’s been streamlined, and that’s how we do that today.

Evan Nappen 31:15
I have another letter here, and this one is from Bill. He says, regarding assault firearms. Under N.J.S. 2C:58-5, a person can buy an “assault firearm” if you meet the requirements. When I get my NJ Permit to Carry a handgun, I still need to, in order to get that assault firearm license, the law does say this. You first need that carry permit, and then it says, “no license shall be issued unless the court finds that the public safety and welfare so require.” Does Bruen address the “public safety and welfare so require” requirement?

Evan Nappen 31:58
So, Bill is pointing out a very interesting thing. New Jersey actually has a Permit to Possess and Carry an Assault Firearm under N.J.S. 2C:58-5. So, in order to purchase, possess and have an assault firearm, you can legally do that in New Jersey if you get a so-called license. It combines both of those things. However, the requirements require that you first get a carry license, which used to be impossible, but now it is not. The next step is you have to reach this insane standard that says, “no license shall not be issued unless the court finds that the public safety and welfare so require.” Now it sounds to me like that standard is unconstitutional, but it hasn’t been pursued yet. It hasn’t been

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challenged to the courts. It sure sounds like it’s ridiculous, and it’s kind of being challenged now in the essence of the ban itself.

Evan Nappen 33:05
The question really is, is the assault firearm prohibition unconstitutional? I believe that it will be found to be unconstitutional. So, getting an assault firearm license won’t even be necessary if you’re interested in that. I think we should just wait and see right now. These cases are heading very quickly now there. There are multiple cases across the country. Shortly, we’re going to get to the Supreme Court taking an assault firearm case and finally rendering a judgment on it. So, stay tuned. Please don’t go being the test case just yet, challenging New Jersey and trying to get an assault firearm license. Although in theory, I think it is possible, particularly since the original hurdle, which was no one could even get, a carry license, is no longer part of it.

Evan Nappen 34:13
This letter is from Joe. Joe wants to know about transporting his firearms to the range. He asks if an officer pulls him over and asks where he’s going and what he’s doing, does he have to tell him? Does he have to comply? Do they need a warrant to unlock his guns that are being transported in his lockbox?

Evan Nappen 34:37
As you should know, New Jersey has what’s called Duty to Disclose, if you have a Permit to Carry a Handgun. Even if you’re just transporting it to the range, you have a duty to immediately tell the officer that you’re carrying or transporting and to show your permit. Now if there’s an investigation that ensues, then the officer has a right to look at your guns. But whether or not that happens, that’s up to the officer and the circumstances. But you definitely have that obligation to disclose and show your permit. However, if you’re transporting to the rage under the old exemptions, and you do not have a Permit to Carry a Handgun, then you do not have to disclose. And if you’re transporting your guns illegally, you don’t have to disclose. Only permit holders have a duty to disclose. More New Jersey logic law right there.

Evan Nappen 35:36
Here is Vincent, who writes, what about reciprocity? What’s national reciprocity? What’s going on with national reciprocity? I totally get it. I love the idea of reciprocity, but it is now obsolete and outdated, my friend. We are now fighting for and looking for “national constitutional carry”. Screw reciprocity. We want national constitutional carry so you can carry anywhere in the United States with no permission slip. Period. End of story. That is the new push. I believe it’s Rep. Massie who has already put a bill forward to do that. (https://massie.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=395664)

Evan Nappen 36:22
Folks, this Tuesday, if Republicans sweep through both houses and the presidency, we could actually get national constitutional carry. Imagine that. We could do it. It is actually possible. It just shows you the things we can achieve, the rights we can regain, the oppression that we can defeat. It’s right up there with our ability to carry nationwide.

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Evan Nappen 37:03
Kevin sends a letter to me which says that a friend of his has placed him in a will to receive all the handguns, rifles and shotguns upon his passing. I would like to know if there’s anything I need to do to receive these firearms. The answer is nothing. Under New Jersey’s law and federal law, if you’re the heir, if you’re the beneficiary, you get all the guns. No paper, no registration, no fuss, no muss. That’s one of the beauties of it. It’s a wonderful legacy for the person who is passing to leave, and the guns pass with no paper, no dealers, no background checks, no nothing.

Evan Nappen 37:55
However, if you are a prohibited person, you can’t get the guns because you’d be illegally in possession as a prohibited person. But if you’re not otherwise prohibited, if you’re not otherwise like a felon or whatever, and you are left guns in a will, they are yours. End of story. Nothing else to do. Enjoy them. So, that’s a good thing to keep in mind. If you’re thinking about your own legacy, make sure you leave your guns to the person or persons who want them. Make sure you estate plan, and think about where you want your guns to go so that they go to somebody who will appreciate them. By the way, my name is Evan Nappen. I’m just kidding. All right. So, it’s very important to do that properly.

Evan Nappen 38:46
I have another letter here from Bill. Bill says, I’m a loyal fan of your book and your podcast. I have a clarifying question that I’m sure I’m not the only one to have. I have a PTC, and I carry to work. My client does not allow concealed carry, so I leave it locked in the car, unloaded. If I go to lunch with my clients and I drive them, I don’t want to let them know I carry. Is it okay to leave the gun locked in the case, in the car, unloaded, while going to and from lunch? I’m sure this is not the only scenario where this can happen, but this is my situation. What do I do if I’m stopped by police? I know I have a Duty to Disclose, but is it okay to transport firearms in this situation?

Evan Nappen 39:26
The answer is, yeah, you’re transporting unloaded, locked in a case with a carry permit. The carry permit lets you possess and carry. So, you can possess and carry loaded, concealed on your person, or if you’re transporting, then you’re transporting unloaded in that locked container. You’re doing it under both those, and the locking is the same for when you go in a sensitive place. You can secure it in that same manner. Secured and locked and unloaded and transported with a carry permit. Then you’re covering yourself. But you still have the Duty to Disclose regardless of transporting or carrying on your person. Thanks, Bill, for the great question.

Evan Nappen 40:16
This question is from a person named Sachs. I wonder if he lives on Fifth Avenue, but anyway. He says, regarding carrying fluted, non-expanding ammunition. Thank you for everything you do for expanding our 2A community in New Jersey. Your dedication and expertise are extremely valuable to all of us, and I genuinely appreciate your work. And thank you. I appreciate the compliments. I want to say how much I enjoy your book. It is an essential resource. Well, thank you for that too. And as a member of ANJRPC and U.S. Law Shield, I appreciate your contribution to both. Well, I appreciate all your appreciation. I truly do. Thank you. I have a question regarding the legality of carrying fluted, non- expanding ammunition, such as the Norma NXD, NovX Engagement Extreme, or the Underwood

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Xtreme Defender. Since these rounds are fluted and do not have a hollow-point design, do you believe they fall within New Jersey’s parameters for lawful carry? Are there any specific considerations or recommendations?

Evan Nappen 41:25
So, those are fluted. They’re not hollow nose. They’re not hollow point. As long as the flutes do not create hollow cavities, a hollow nose, then they’re not hollow. I mean, they’ve got to be hollow to be hollow. If they’re not hollow, they’re not. Depending on what round and what we’re talking about. The New Jersey State Police do put on their website, on their FAQ, specific rounds that perform very much like hollow nose, but are not hollow nose. (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml – Question 13.) Very popular rounds are the Hornady Critical Duty, Hornady Critical Defense, Cor-bon PowRBall ammo, etc. Go to the state police website. They say that this is good to go, and because they say it, that becomes a defense at law.

Evan Nappen 42:15
We’ve talked about it before, and I’ll mention it again. It’s called ignorance or mistake of law. New Jersey has that as a defense. But the way that defense comes into play is if you’re relying on an official statement by the agency or folks that are empowered to say it. The State Police Firearms Division are the folks on guns, and if they say you can carry those rounds, then you’re covering yourself by carrying what they say is okay. So, those are good choices for defense. The key is exactly that. Hollow nose is hollow nose. Fluted, depending on its actual configuration, isn’t hollow. So, as long as you don’t have fluted that are hollow, then what is it? I mean, arguably, when a round goes through the barrel, the rifling, to a certain degree, adds fluting right. The rifling itself on some lead will mark it with grooves and create fluting itself on just lead, solid lead.

Evan Nappen 43:23
So, what about the exciting last segment of the show, which is the GOFU? The GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. That’s where we get to learn an expensive lesson, somebody else’s expensive lesson, that we get to learn for free, so you don’t become a GOFU. And what I’m talking about here today as a critical GOFU is be extremely cautious when filling out your gun applications. When asking about mental health, there are two questions, folks. One is about commitments, and it now includes voluntary and involuntary. The other question is about ever being treated or observed by a doctor or psychologist, etc, psychiatrist, doctor, psychiatrist for any mental or physical condition. You know, they’re going at your gun rights. There we go. New Jersey’s expansive privacy invasion on its application.

Evan Nappen 44:30
But the problem is, if you’re not truthful on those questions, you could end up not only denied for something that we could have overcome by different legal methods, but you could get denied for falsification. Falsification itself is a denial, and that becomes the GOFU. Not only can you get denied, but also you can get criminally charged with falsification, and that’s a felony offense. A crime of the third degree that carries up to five years in State Prison. So, not only do you not get your guns, not only do you lose your gun rights, not only do they deny your license, but you also get to enjoy the prosecution for a third degree felony level offense while you’re at it. So, be very careful on all the questions on the application.

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Evan Nappen 45:26
I’m seeing a lot of people who inadvertently give the wrong answer to these questions. If you were committed as a juvenile by your parents, it counts. There’s no distinction between an adult and a juvenile. If you’ve had a doctor prescribe you antidepressants, then you better tell about it and overcome it with a doctor’s letter or report. More and more the investigations uncover these things, and it is a big problem for folks. Don’t be that GOFU.

Evan Nappen 46:10
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 46:22
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E210_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

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Episode 209-Lawsuit over Red Flag Law Being Used To Suppress Right To Carry Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 209 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Red Flag Law, extreme risk protection order, David Burg, Second Amendment, self-defense, firearm seizure, due process, New Jersey State Police, civil complaint, legal challenge, gun rights, carry permit, legal representation, gun laws, firearm transfer

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs has brought an extremely important lawsuit to overturn New Jersey’s infamous “Red Flag” Law. Now, we don’t actually call it “Red Flag”. New Jersey officially calls it an Extreme Risk Protection Order (ERPO) Law. The Extreme Risk Protection Order law is an unbelievable denial of due process that exists in New Jersey to take your guns and take away your rights. We have a case now where I’m representing the plaintiff in this case. I’m representing him on the criminal charges, whereas my dear friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter, is bringing the Federal Civil Rights litigation over what occurred here.

Evan Nappen 01:33
This suit is something that can have tremendous impact on so many individuals throughout New Jersey. Because in this case, you see the perfect example of the abuse that is integral to the Red Flag law being applied to disenfranchise individuals. The person’s name is David Burg. To disenfranchise David’s Second Amendment right, particularly his right to defend himself. So, the lawsuit was launched and is being brought because the New Jersey State Police used the “Red Flag” Law to seize the firearms of 67-year old Attorney David Burg.

Evan Nappen 02:39
Now I’m taking this right from the News Release put out by the Association. You can go to anjrpc.org, and you can see the release. (www.anjrpc.org) (ANJRPC SUES TO OVERTURN “RED FLAG” LAW BEING USED TO SUPPRESS RIGHT TO CARRY) The links are there so that you can read the actual civil complaint. You can also donate to the fund to help in fighting this outrage. It will have an impact on all of us. As the Association news release states, the ERPO was brought against Burg simply because he tried to exercise his right of lawful self-defense while en route to an Independence Day celebration in July. As per the Association release, the State Police never bothered to speak directly with Mr. Burg, a carry permit, before using the “Red Flag” law to wrongly arrest and seize his firearms. Instead, they falsely concluded that he was a bad actor who needed to be stripped of his gun rights without due process. This “arrest first and ask questions later” approach puts every law-abiding carry permit holder in New Jersey at risk of false arrest and wrongful firearm seizure.

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Evan Nappen 04:12
If you go right to the Association’s website, angerpc.org, not only should you belong to that organization, who is also a sponsor of this show, but the Association is there fighting for our rights. They’re the ones litigating the modern sporting rifle ban that New Jersey pejoratively calls the “assault firearm” ban. They are fighting the standard capacity magazine ban, which they call the “large capacity” magazine, which is a very subjective standard, of course. They are also fighting the Carry Killer bill. And this suit, of course, ties into the Carry Killer bill, Murphy’s kicking and screaming hissy fit after the passage of the Bruen decision.

Evan Nappen 05:07
We can look directly at the complaint that has been brought in the United States District Court of New Jersey, and you’ll see that the plaintiffs are David Burg and the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Of course, that protects the members of that fine organization, and hopefully this will make important law regarding this abuse that continues throughout New Jersey. The parties being sued are: Matthew Platkin, in his official capacity as the Attorney General of New Jersey; Patrick Callahan, in his official capacity as Superintendent of State Police of New Jersey; Raymond Santiago, in his official capacity as Monmouth County Prosecutor; Anthony Dzugan, individually and in his official capacity as a New Jersey State Trooper; Daniel Valenti, individually and in his official capacity as a New Jersey State Trooper; Eddy Otano, individually and in his official capacity as a New Jersey State Trooper; Craig Denardo, individually and in his official capacity as a New Jersey State Trooper; and Jeffrey Fischetti, individually and in his official capacity as a New Jersey State Trooper.

Evan Nappen 06:42
If you look at this complaint, which is extremely well written, it first mentions and discusses the New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen case. (142 S. Ct. 2111, 2135 (2022) of course, our Second Amendment key case by Saint Thomas. You know Justice Thomas. If you read the very first paragraph in the Complaint, it says, “The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution guarantees ‘the right of the people to keep and bear arms.’ (U.S. CONST. Amend II) When the People, by enacting that amendment, enshrined in their fundamental charter the right to ‘carry weapons in the case of confrontation’ for the ‘core lawful purposes of self-defense,’ District of Columbia v. Heller, 544 U.S. 570, 592, 630 (2008), they did not mean to leave the freedom to exercise that right at the mercy of the very government officials whose hands they sought to bind.”

Evan Nappen 07:49
It goes on in Paragraph Two to say, “The State of New Jersey has, apparently, not gotten the message. New Jersey is piling on its suppression of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms using every possible means, including its grossly unconstitutional Extreme Risk Protection Act of 2018 (“ERPO Act”), N.J.S.A. 2C:58-20, et seq. – a law that fails even the most basic requirements of Due Process and treats the Second Amendment worse than a second class right. The ERPO Act treats the Second Amendment as if it does not exist.” Further down in the complaint, it says, “Notwithstanding last year’s stark judicial reminder that New Jersey may not disregard the fundamental right to keep and bear arms, . . . ” And that reminder, by the way, was the decision by Chief U.S. District Judge Renee Bumb, entering a preliminary injunction against certain acts of the so-called Carry Killer bill. The Complaint says here, “The ERPO Act allows certain petitioners, including police agencies, to completely disarm

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an individual on an ex parte record, . . .” meaning without any participation by the party being disarmed, with no due process for the person being disarmed, “based on hearsay, and based on a nebulous and weak standard of proof identified merely as ‘good cause’.”

Evan Nappen 09:31
“It was on such a thin ex parte record that the New Jersey State Police Defendants suddenly showed up at the home of long time attorney David Burg with a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order (‘TERPO’) and seized all of his firearms, rendering him utterly defenseless and entirely unable to exercise his fundamental right to keep and bear arms.” The complaint goes on and says, “What was Mr. Burg’s heinous offense? Mr. Burg had several days earlier exercised his right of lawful self-defense by showing the muzzle of his lawfully carried Glock 43x micro-pistol to a driver who had been relentlessly and threateningly pursuing Mr. Burg for miles.”

Evan Nappen 10:30
“But the other driver got to the police first, and falsely reported that Mr. Burg had pointed a gun at him unprovoked. So rather than investigate the incident in a systematic and even-handed manner, the State Police Defendants, in an astonishingly unprofessional and irresponsible manner, applied the ‘Guy With The Gun Is The Bad Guy” Presumption. The result was that Mr. Burg was summarily disarmed and denied his fundamental constitutional rights without any opportunity to tell his side of the story and without the Defendants having had to satisfy even the most basic obligation to create a reliable and rigorous record. If this can happen to Mr. Burg, this can happen to any law abiding New Jerseyan who holds a Permit to Carry a Handgun and urgently needs to exercise her fundamental right to lawful self- defense outside her home. The ERPO Law is simply another means for New Jersey to disregard Bruen and unconstitutionally suppress the fundamental right to bear arms in public for lawful self-defense.”

Evan Nappen 12:03
This is a very powerful case, my friends. It is a case in which the plaintiff, David Burg, says right in the complaint that you can read online as well on the Association website. Mr. Burg says he’s a 67 year old attorney who resided in California until he and his wife moved to New Jersey in 2021. In June 1980, he graduated Magna cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa from the University of California at Los Angeles, which is UCLA, with a Bachelor of Arts Degree in History and, after working several years as a musician, in May 1987, he graduated from the University of California Berkely School of Law with his JD, which is a law degree. Burg took and passed the California Bar, and he was admitted to practice before the Courts of the State of California. He subsequently was admitted to practice in other courts, including in Arizona. In 2022, he passed the New Jersey bar and was admitted there. Mr. Burg has practiced as a business and entertainment litigator continuously since 1987. He was employed by NBCUniversal for 10 years. During most of that time, he served as Senior Vice President, Litigation, overseeing all global litigation for Universal Studios film, home entertainment, studio facilities, and theme park businesses. He is still practicing with a firm that has a boutique business and entertainment litigation based out of LA.

Evan Nappen 14:00
He has, obviously, no disqualifiers, etc, for firearms, and he is a passionate student and lover of the United States Constitution. He is particularly devoted to the Second Amendment, as he fervently

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believes in the right to keep their arms as enshrined in that document. So, we have a really worthy plaintiff here. I’m proud to be defending him on the criminal charges, and this civil action now is going at the Extreme Risk Protection law that was placed upon him. And you may say, well, what happened? Well, if you read into the complaint, you’ll see that, in addition to being a practicing attorney, he’s a lifelong musician. Shortly after moving to New Jersey in 2021, he formed an 8-piece classic rock band, and he was booked to perform at Plumsted Township Independence Day fireworks celebration, and that’s where he was heading.

Evan Nappen 15:29
At that time, he was traveling in a steady flow of traffic, and he noticed in his rear view mirror that a small car had barreled up to him and was tailgating him, frequently within a car’s length from him. It made him quite uncomfortable, including because his precious musical instruments were in the rear of his vehicle. He was concerned they would be irreparably damaged if he had to unexpectedly brake, and this tailgating car rear-ended him. He had a fear of that, so he gently tapped his brakes to communicate his desire for more space. The other driver did not back off. He tried again, and the person reacted by tailgating, weaving, and gesticulating toward him even more aggressively. Burg wanted nothing the further to do with this person, and on two occasions, he activated his right turn signal and searched for a place to pull to the right shoulder to let this guy pass. He pulled as far as possible onto the right shoulder, and slowed or stopped to let him pass. Both times, rather than passing Burg, the driver pulled his vehicle into the shoulder directly behind him in an aggressive and confrontational manner and slowed or stopped the apparent intention of exiting his vehicle to confront Burg.

Evan Nappen 16:53
Burg felt quite threatened by this behavior. So, on both occasions, he immediately returned his vehicle to the flow of traffic. On both occasions, the other driver darted his vehicle directly behind Burg so as not to allow another car between them and continued chasing him down Route 537. Although Burg was generally unfamiliar with this area, he knew his destination, and Plumsted was a short distance off. He anticipated that there would be law enforcement, so he decided to do his best to ignore this apparent lunatic who was chasing him down 537. He kept driving to his destination.

Evan Nappen 17:37
Unfortunately, he encountered a red light, which was at the intersection of 526. At that point, 537 opens into two southwest lanes of traffic, plus a left-turn lane. Approaching the intersection, Burg saw the road-raging driver initially indicating he was turning right. So, Burg proceeded away from him into the left lane. Once he did this, however, the other driver suddenly veered to the left of Burg’s vehicle in an attempt to overtake Burg’s vehicle, forcing Burg to brake in order to avoid hitting him. The other driver then pulled his vehicle into the left-turn lane directly next to Burg. When Burg stopped for the red light, there were several stopped cars in front of him, a line of stopped cars to Burg’s right, and cars stopped behind him. The other driver then deliberately stopped short in the left-turn lane immediately to his left, completely trapping Burg, despite several car lengths of open space in front of his vehicle.

Evan Nappen 18:40
Although Burg’s light remained red, the left-turn arrow quickly turned green in the other driver’s lane, but he didn’t move, though no cars were in front of him, thereby blocking cars behind him from

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proceeding to turn left. Burg initially inched his vehicle forward, trying to gauge if there was enough room to escape, but there was not. The other driver — who appeared to be a young man in his mid- twenties, promptly rolled down the passenger-side window and began incessantly shouting and cursing at him, threatening to “kick your ass”. This confinement and verbal confrontation continued for about 30 seconds. Throughout this stressful time, Burg believed the other driver would either physically attack the 67-year old Burg right there, or, when the life finally turned green, he would dart back into traffic, directly behind Burg’s vehicle and doing the same chasing down the highway. Initially, Burg did not roll down his car window but instead repeatedly shouted back to the driver to leave him the “F” alone and get the hell out of here. The other driver did neither.

Evan Nappen 19:56
Terrified that the driver would drag him from the car and beat him bloody, either right then or further down the road, near the end of this approximately 30 seconds of confinement, Burg rolled down his window, turned to his left to face the driver, carefully drew his firearm from the holster, raised it in his right hand with his finger off the trigger, and held it inside his vehicle, mid-body, slightly above the height of the window while pointing it at the vehicle that was entrapping him just long enough to utter the words “leave me the fuck alone asshole.” Burg had no intention of firing his weapon, which he could not physically have done without first deliberately retracting the slide to chamber a round, as he did not have one in the chamber. Rather, his sole purpose was to instill fear in this other driver that Burg was capable of defending himself, if necessary.

Evan Nappen 20:51
Immediately after Burg produced his weapon, the other driver finally began driving forward. This caused Burg to turn back to face forward, and he realized the light in his light direction finally had turned green. He began driving forward and, as the other vehicle was no longer visible, he believed the other driver had proceeded to turn left. In fact, the other driver stopped short after Burg’s vehicle had departed and veered across two lines, making a right turn into a restaurant parking lot. This dangerous and extreme move to the right by the other driver made it clear the only reason he pulled to the left was to continue his aggressive course of threats and intimidation toward Burg. Burg was gratified that briefly producing his weapon in this manner had quickly and effectively diffused an ominous and extremely threatening situation. He continued his journey without further incident, and his band later set up and performed a three-hour show.

Evan Nappen 21:56
However, that incident led to criminal charges and to the TERPO. All of that being done because he lawfully exercised his right to self-defense. Here we have a case that is going to challenge what is sorely needing to be challenged. So, check out anjrpc.org, and you can read all about it. You can read the full complaint, which I just read some excerpts to you. It’ll be a very important case in the fight for our rights. Not only that, but you want to make sure that you are a member of the Association. Please join. Go to anjrpc.org. You’ll be able to get email alerts on the progress of this case and all the other fronts that your number one gun rights protection group is pursuing. You want to be a part of that, part of the fight for our rights.

Evan Nappen 23:12

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I also want to mention it’s important for you to have my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It is an incredibly valuable tool that judges, police, prosecutors and 1000s of plain old, ordinary, law-abiding gun owners use every day. And that’s why I wrote it. So that you can hopefully navigate through New Jersey’s insanity that it calls its gun laws. It’s 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. You can buy it right from EvanNappen.com. Go to EvanNappen.com and buy a copy today. You’ll be glad you did. When you get your copy, scan the QR code right on the front and get in my free subscriber base. I don’t do anything with that list. It stays private, but you will get updates. You’ll be able to access the archives or any updates to the book that has already been done. This way your book will stay current. It is a labor of love, folks. So, make sure you get a copy. It’s over 500 pages, and well worth it. It’ll help save your freedom, maybe even your life. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Got to EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 24:46
Also, let me mention our great friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They are centrally located right off the parkway. It is so easy to get to. It’s a great range. It’s where I personally shoot. They have phenomenal training. It’s where I got my CCARE. My brother got his CCARE there, and my son got his CCARE there. They have excellent trainers. Everything you need. Get your CCARE, so you can get your Permit to Carry. They have plenty of other training, too. From the most basic to the advanced shooter, anything you need. They have a phenomenal pro shop. It is just a great, friendly, fun range, and they will treat you like family. Go to weshootusa.com, WeShootUSA.com. Check out their website. You can learn all about the wonderful things that they offer and see their beautiful photography. They pride themselves on their photography. Go to weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 25:56
So, I just got back from Houston, Texas. I was out there for U.S. Law Shield, which I’m part of. You know, defending gun owners through U.S. Law Shield. After that meeting, we had a little bit of extra time, and my wife and I decided to visit a couple fun places in Houston. We went to the Houston Zoo, which was, of course, a first class zoo, a great zoo. I was telling my wife, well, I found two places for us to go. I know she loves animals, and so do I. So, let’s go to the Houston Zoo. She was all on board for that, 100%, and we had a great time.

Evan Nappen 26:42
But I also had another place that I wanted to go. I told her that this is other place looks really cool, and I think you’ll really like it. Oh, hon, what is it? It’s the National Museum of Funeral History. (https://www.nmfh.org/) Yeah, I know. That was about the reaction she had as well. I said, well, it is almost Halloween and seems kind of appropriate. I got to tell you, folks, if you’re ever in Houston, that is one cool Museum. It is very interesting. It’s not schlocky. It’s very well done, and it has an amazing collection of hearses, number one. I mean, all through the ages. From horse and buggy to sleigh hearses. Beautiful woodwork. Amazing early vehicles, from the 20s, 30s, 40s. Just a magnificent collection. Unbelievably decorative Japanese hearse, like from the 70s. You can’t believe it when you see it. The hearse that Princess Grace was carried in. You know, it’s a Mercedes. Just really cool stuff. Fundamentally, just amazing.

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Evan Nappen 27:48
Then they have an entire wing called the History of Embalming. We got a kick out of that. You know, beginning with the Egyptians. Just amazing stuff. The history of Papal funerals. Yeah, papal funerals there. Absolutely, tracing them all. Relics and displays of famous individuals’ funerals and deaths. Mourning photography. You may know that about 150 years ago, they took pictures of the deceased, so you’d have a final remembrance. Those photographs are very interesting, and something that really we don’t do today, at least, not regularly for family. It just was a really interesting museum that I want to mention. If you’re in Houston, check it out. You’ll also find their souvenir shop has a lot of very interesting things that they sell. If you want to get a flask for your bourbon shaped like a casket, they have it. They have all kinds of interesting things. So, check out the National Museum of Funeral History. I think you’ll get a kick out of it.

Evan Nappen 29:14
So, I have some ask Evans that I love doing our letters. This week’s Ask Evan is from David regarding PTC, Hunting and Animal Hospitals. Hey, Evan, not sure what happened to my last question, but the form submitted prematurely. That’s okay. We did get your question, David. I have two PTC-related questions that might be good for the podcast. Could animal hospitals and veterinary offices fall under the health care sensitive places ban?

Evan Nappen 29:46
Yes, in fact, they could. It’s not clear, but it very well could. I would avoid anything with medical offices at all, including veterinary hospitals because technically they are hospitals, and you don’t want to be the test case on that one. So, stay away from those places. Second question related to carrying while hunting. You touched on this topic in January when the legislature passed the hunting bill that they completely messed up. But the current version of the hunting and trapping digest provided by the State, the following can be found, suggesting that PTC and carry is now good to go. And he quotes the law essentially. Amending N.J.S.A. 23:4-12, 13, 24, and 44, authorizes the carrying of a handgun while hunting, if the handgun is legally owned and the person in possession has a valid NJ concealed carry permit. Handguns are still not legal for taking/ attempting to take wildlife. N.J.S.A. 2C:58-1 et seq. states that you must have your concealed carry permit on your person while carrying a handgun.

Evan Nappen 30:53
Then Dave further says, so would this fall under the same situation that you discussed regarding the state police firearms FAQ page and the guidance given there under official capacity? Additionally, if it’s now okay to carry while hunting with a PTC, do any other sensitive places still apply? So, here’s the deal, David. You’re absolutely right. Because the Official Digest has now stated that you can carry while hunting, whether that is correct or not, if you rely upon that, then you have what we call in New Jersey “ignorance or mistake of law”. And that’s what we had discussed before. There’s an actual affirmative defense in New Jersey called ignorance or mistake of law when you rely on the official statement of the Government official or agency empowered to do it. Here, Fish and Game, in charge of this, is saying publicly you can do it. Furthermore, working through with Dan Schmutter, a colleague and attorney, he also confirmed through the Attorney General that that would be the case. They’re following the guidance in that same way. So, whatever the law, however poorly written and whatever, well they’re saying this is what it means. If you’re relying on that statement, and there you have it, then in a worst

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case, you do have the affirmative defense of ignorance or mistake of law. So, your reasoning is correct, David.

Evan Nappen 32:26
Yes, you still have to be aware of any other sensitive place problems. It doesn’t exempt you simply because you’re hunting from any other sensitive place. So, if it’s a private property, for example, that you don’t have permission to be carrying on, then you have a problem. You can’t do that. So, the sensitive places do apply, but as long as it’s not a sensitive place, the idea that you’re hunting with your carry gun is, in and of itself, now permitted at a minimum, by way of the official statement. So, thanks David for the great question.

Evan Nappen 33:12
This is from Ken, and Ken asks, regarding intra-family transfer with interim holding period for long guns. I’m a frequent listener of your podcast and also a life member of the NRA, ANJRPC, US Law Shield, and owner of your NJ Gun Law, 25th Anniversary Edition. Well, you have met all the key points there. So, I’m proud of you, Ken, and I am happy to answer your question. We have a situation in the family where I could use some guidance. My 18-year old grandson “Bill’s” other grandfather, “Joe”, has some concerns about his health and that he may not be around when our grandson turns 21. Bill, Joe, and I all have a NJ Firearms ID Card and are residents of NJ. From the book, Page 266, thank you for quoting the book, I’m aware Joe could legally transfer his shotguns and rifles to Bill using only the NJ Certificate of Eligibility Form without FFL involvement. That is correct. However, Joe desires to have me hold the long guns until Bill turns 21 and then make the presentation as a thoughtful gift from Joe. What are my options for correctly doing this? I am willing to carry out Joe’s wishes, but I want to make sure I don’t open myself up to a tour in the New Jersey Gulag. Well, that’s always a wise thing to beware of. Or become fodder for one of your future GOFU segments. Definitely a good thing to avoid. Any guidance appreciated. Thanks for your great work on behalf of gun owners in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 34:49
Well, you’re welcome, Ken. So, in New Jersey, you can make the transfers without going through an FFL if it is to immediate family members. That does include grandparents making the transfer and parents making the transfer. Now, if you or the other interim person take possession, they’re not really an interim person. They are the person taking possession. So, the firearms would become, essentially, that persons. Now, if down the road that person wanted to make that transfer, they could again make the transfer, still under the same provision. It’s the idea of making an interim or a holding person that I don’t particularly care for, and it’s not necessary. Because if the situation changes, if for some reason, the ultimate person to receive it is no longer qualified to receive it, or there can be a number of factors. But if the transfer is made lawfully, which it can be, even initially and then subsequently, a transfer gets made lawfully, which it can be, then that is the way to proceed. However, don’t bind yourself in any way to that transfer taking place. But when the time comes, if the new possessor’s wish, independently, is to do this and maybe also have in the back of their mind that this was something that the person originally would have liked to see happen as well, then that’s perfectly fine. You’re doing the paperwork anyway, and you’re just not going through the dealer as allowed under the statute.

Evan Nappen 36:57

Page – 8 – of 10

The other possibility is for it to be left via a will or by bequeathing it if a person wishes to officially leave firearms, then it doesn’t matter about paperwork at all. So, if the will says that I leave my guns to whoever, as long as that person isn’t disqualified, then the guns pass to that person without any paperwork or registration under New Jersey law. You can read that in my book regarding firearm estates and inheritance of firearms. So, you have a couple of options there. And Ken, I appreciate your being a big fan, and for a great question. It’s of concern to many people.

Evan Nappen 38:01
I have another letter here from Will who says, Hi Evan. I listen to your podcast every week, and I really appreciate everything you do. Both of my grandfathers had a firearm. Upon their passing, both over 30 years ago, my father took over those firearms. He passed away in 2010. A few years ago, I obtained my Firearms ID card. Am I able to take the firearms since all previous owners are no longer living? What are my options here?

Evan Nappen 38:30
Well, some things are not clear in your letter. Basically, if you inherited the firearms from your father and you were not otherwise disqualified, being a convicted felon or something like that, then it doesn’t matter whether you had your Firearms ID card or not. The guns are already yours if your father left them to you, or if you were the beneficiary of your father’s estate. They are already yours. If you have an FID card, well, that’s really good, and I’m glad to hear it. The fact that all previous owners are not living doesn’t matter, as far as the other folks. Your dad had the guns. Your dad’s acquisition of those guns were, they were his. The other how he got them, or whatever back then, you know, whether he did a certificate isn’t even legally relevant. The only thing that matters is he had the guns. They were lawfully his, I’m assuming, and therefore you may have, in fact, automatically inherited them upon his death. If you have a Firearms ID card now, that’s even better, because now you can transport your guns and buy ammunition and even buy new guns, if you choose. Thanks for the great question, Will.

Evan Nappen 40:04
What about this week’s drum roll, please, GOFU? Let me tell you this week’s GOFU, which is the Gun Owners Fuck Up. And do you know why we love GOFUs? Because with a GOF, you’re learning for free a very expensive lesson that others have learned and cost them, possibly their gun rights or their freedom, or a lot of hassle and a lot of money. This week’s GOFU is related to some of these topics we’re talking about and has to do with storage and transfer. You cannot store your guns at a friend’s house. There is no storing of your guns at a friend’s house in New Jersey. You either transfer the guns, and if you’re transferring to someone other than non-immediate family members, the transfer has to go through a dealer.

Evan Nappen 40:59
If you just give your guns to a friend, that’s a GOFU. And what happens if, for some reason, you get hit with one of New Jersey’s notorious TERPOs, “Red Flag”, or some other of the multiple means that New Jersey has for seizing and taking guns from people, and they end up tracking, tracing, wanting, forcing and requiring you to turn in guns, and they’ve been unlawfully transferred? You’ve got a problem. So, don’t do that. Do not store guns other than at an authorized FFL that takes guns in for storage. If you’re going to have somebody else hold your guns, then properly do the transfer.

Page – 9 – of 10

Evan Nappen 41:55
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:06
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 10 – of 10

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E209_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 208-Everything You Need To Know About Hollow Nose Ammo in NJ Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 208 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

hollow nose bullets, New Jersey law, felony offense, possession exemptions, target shooting, hunting,

carry permit, dummy cartridge, false arrest, state police advice, ignorance defense, gun applications,

carry in vehicle, law enforcement guidance, gun rights

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. As you know, or should know, I’m a practicing attorney.

I’ve been at it in New Jersey for over 35 years, focused on gun law, and I see just so many people that

are constantly ignorant of the laws, making mistakes, etc. That’s why you, the listener, are ahead of

them. Because you’re learning and educating yourself, and I’m happy to be the one to help you do that.

Evan Nappen 00:59

One of the topics that comes up a lot, and I just want to deal with it in detail on the show is what is the

story with hollow nose bullets in New Jersey? Let me explain this thoroughly so you can fully

understand what you can and can’t do, and what’s regulated and how it’s regulated. So, you’ll have a

full and complete understanding of New Jersey’s hollow point, hollow nose bullet law. You see in New

Jersey, hollow nose ammunition is prohibited, except for certain exemptions. We’re going to talk about

the exemptions in detail in a moment. The prohibition on hollow nose makes it a felony level offense

with up to 18 months in State Prison for each bullet you have that is prohibited as a hollow nose bullet.

Evan Nappen 02:15

New Jersey has this absurd law. It’s nothing short of absurd because they have determined that they

want to mandate that you have high penetration ammo at all times. I guess they decided to impose the

Geneva Convention or something on New Jersey where you can’t have hollow nose. They want high

penetration ammo so that it goes through your target and hits some innocent bystander, or something

along those lines. I have no idea why. Because the idea with hollow nose ammunition, practically, is

energy transfer. No over penetration or less penetration. More stopping power to stop the threat, which

is the whole purpose of having a firearm to defend yourself.

Evan Nappen 03:14

So, New Jersey prohibits the possession of hollow nose and then creates exceptions to the ban. One of

the key exceptions to the ban is possession in your home. So, you can possess hollow nose

ammunition in your home, and you can possess it pursuant to the exemptions under N.J.S. 2C:39-3f. of

the gun laws. Those exemptions, the activities under those exemptions, include target shooting and

hunting. You can keep this ammo at your dwelling, or your premises or other land owned or possessed

by you. Those are the exemptions. You can buy it at the gun store. You can take it home. You canPage – 2 – of 7

possess it at home. You can take it to the target range. You can take it hunting. But you cannot have

hollow nose ammunition outside of those exempted places. If you do, you’re unlawfully in possession of

the hollow nose bullets.

Evan Nappen 04:32

This gets a lot of people into trouble because they think that they are able to lawfully possess it outside

those exemptions, and you’re not. You cannot even have hollow nose ammunition in your handgun with

a Carry Permit outside those exemptions. So, if you’re in your home with your carry gun, you can have

hollow nose. As soon as you step out of your home, you can’t have hollow nose. You’re unlawfully

possessing the hollow nose because your carry does not convey a privilege to carry hollow nose. So,

don’t get tricked into thinking that you can have hollow nose simply because you have a carry permit.

You cannot. I see that as a GOFU, by the way, at times. So, be careful of that.

Evan Nappen 05:29

Now, the interesting thing about this hollow nose bullet ban is that it is the bullet itself that is banned,

not the cartridge. So, I actually had a case where a guy went through a metal detector with his key ring,

and on his key ring was one of those dummy cartridges that had a hollow nose bullet. It was drilled

through. No powder, no primer, as one of those key rings. They arrested and indicted him for

possession of a hollow nose bullet on a dummy key ring. Insanity. I had another case where a guy was

delivering pizza. He had no guns in the car, nothing. Just delivering pie. He parks, I think, maybe

temporarily in front of a fire hydrant or something. Anyway, they grabbed his car, and they towed it

while he’s making the delivery. They searched his glove box, and at the bottom of his glove box was

one .22 hollow nose that had fallen out of a box of ammo when he had gone to the range. They indicted

him for possession of five cents worth of .22 ammo right there. Yeah, it is nuts on this.

Evan Nappen 06:54

I had another guy flying out to Nebraska. He worked at one of the top sporting goods stores in New

Jersey. He’s going hunting in Nebraska. He had his hunting license already set and had his gun already

out there. He was going to fly out and enjoy a great deer hunt in Nebraska. One of the folks, you know,

a distributor of his product line, whatever, gave him a box of fantastic deer hunting ammo. Just some

box of great stuff. Expensive. He said try this on your hunt, man. It’s the best. You may want to sell it,

you know? He takes the sample box, but it was hollow nose. He goes to what is euphemistically called

Liberty Airport in Newark, what a joke, and proceeds to declare that he’s bringing ammo, which you’re

allowed to do. But when they see that it’s hollow nose ammunition going through the airport, they arrest

him and charge him with unlawful possession of hollow nose. Now the funny thing about that is he was

100% legal, even under New Jersey law. Because why did he have the hollow nose? He was going

hunting pursuant to the activities of 39-6. So, it was an absolutely false arrest. It ruined his trip and cost

him having to go through the entire judicial process for obeying New Jersey law. That’s right. All over

this dumbass hollow nose law that New Jersey has.

Evan Nappen 08:51

Now, if you want to carry ammunition that performs like a hollow point or hollow nose that actually,

arguably, may even perform better in terms of feeding and functioning in your gun, the New Jersey

State Police in their “Frequently Asked Questions”. (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-Page – 3 – of 7

faqs.shtml – Number 13) It states that Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball /

Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense Ammunition is not hollow nose ammunition. Because those

cartridges, those bullets themselves in those rounds, have inserts in the noses. Thereby no longer

making them hollow. So, if you want to carry a great round in your carry gun that will not over penetrate

and harm somebody unintended, then carry Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball

/ Glaser Safety Slug, etc. Carry the ammunition that the New Jersey State Police specifically say is

okay and not hollow nose.

Evan Nappen 10:22

Let me tell you something else about the State Police saying that. Even if the State Police are wrong in

their interpretation, New Jersey has a defense called “ignorance or mistake of law”. Yeah, you’ve

probably heard your whole life that ignorance of the law is no excuse. However, in New Jersey, it is.

Everything is counterintuitive in this wacko state. The way it works is it’s not just that you didn’t know

the law. It works in a way that if you follow the official statement of the agency empowered to make it,

or the individual empowered to make it, and you follow what that official says, that if it ends up that

official is wrong, you have the defense of ignorance or mistake of law. That can still be a defense for

you to not be convicted. So, we have that in New Jersey. This would be an official statement by the

firearms folks at the State Police, who are in charge of this very thing. So, that’s the ammo to carry if

you need to.

Evan Nappen 11:33

There’s no reason you can’t have that in your home as well. But if you want actual, traditional hollow

nose then you’re going to need to stay within the exemptions. This is extremely important. Don’t go

outside those exemptions. And if you do choose to carry what the State Police recommend, you should

also carry a little slip of paper with their advice, or at least a screenshot of their advice. Because I’ve

had cases where individuals were carrying Hornaday ammo. One of the most famous is Roosevelt

Twyne. They charged him with hollow nose when it wasn’t plainly. It was legal as per the State Police.

And it might prove helpful, if you find yourself in that situation, to show immediately for the officer to

read themselves that your ammo is legal. This is a continuing problem, continuing nuisance of absurdity

and silliness on the part of New Jersey. But look, I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of New

Jersey gun law, and your best defense is having this knowledge and staying within it. And that’s really

why I do this show. It’s the whole reason.

Evan Nappen 13:18

It’s also the reason why the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is a sponsor of this show.

They want their members to be safe. It’s our state Association that’s out there, fighting in the courts,

fighting in the legislature. Standing guard for real, with a full-time paid lobbyist, heavy litigation going

on. We just have been having victories with more victories to come as the fight continues to restore our

God-given rights in New Jersey to keep and bear arms. It’s an uphill fight, but we are winning, and the

association is behind that fully. So, make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org and be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 14:16

I also have to mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is the premier target range in Lakewood,

New Jersey. Right there in Central Jersey. Easy to get to from the Parkway. You can take advantage ofPage – 4 – of 7

a first rate facility, a great resource where you can utilize the indoor range facilities. You can get

phenomenal training. Get your certificate to get your New Jersey Permit to Carry or the courses you

need for your New York carry, and others. WeShoot offers them. Plus, you can get great training,

whether you’re a novice or advanced in shooting. A great pro shop. Just great people at WeShoot. Go

there. Take a friend, and just enjoy a day shooting at the range. It’s always one of my favorite times the

shooting at WeShoot, and it’s where I shoot personally. So, check out WeShootusa.com or pay a visit

to WeShoot and mention me. You’ll be glad you did. And watch what happens. They won’t throw you

out, I promise.

Evan Nappen 15:42

Let me also take this opportunity to remind you all to buy my book, that’s right, New Jersey Gun Law,

the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer

format. It has a chapter on hollow nose ammo right there, if you forget what I said, or need to read it, or

have it handy to show an officer. There it is, ready for you to use, with 120 other topics explaining the

insanity of New Jersey gun laws. It’ll help keep you safe, help keep you out of jail and help keep you

free. When you get the book, scan the QR in the front of it, the QR code, and subscribe to my free

subscriber base. I don’t distribute that list. It stays private, but I let you know if there’s updates, or any

changes in the law. You can get into the archives for free for any updates. So, your book will stay

current. That’s the idea. It’s my labor of love, because I love you all. So, buy my book and show me

how much you love me. Just kidding about that. But go to EvanNappen.com, www.evannappen.com.

That’s where you will find my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 17:17

So, let’s take a look at some great questions that have been sent to me. I always enjoy getting these

questions. This one is from Lawrence, and Lawrence says, Dear Evan. I hope this message finds you

well. I wanted to share a recent experience I had, which I believe could provide useful insight for your

listeners, especially those who legally carry firearms and may find themselves in similar situations.

Recently, I was pulled over by a police officer in Warren, New Jersey, while legally carrying my

handgun. As the officer approached, I kept both hands visibly on the steering wheel. Before he could

ask for my license or registration, I clearly stated, “I am a concealed carry permit holder, and I’m

currently carrying a weapon. It’s on my right hip — a SIG, P365, with one in the chamber.” The officer

calmly acknowledged my statement and asked for my documentation. I handed over my driver’s

license, registration, and concealed carry permit. He seemed completely unfazed by the situation, even

expressing his appreciation for my transparency.

Evan Nappen 18:34

When he needed to return to the vehicle to run my information, the officer asked me to step out of the

car so he could safely remove the weapon. I believed it to be a legal request, and I complied without

hesitation. We were in a parking lot with people around, and the officer did it respectfully and discreetly.

He took the entire holster, leaving the weapon in it, and I once again reminded him that there was a

round chambered. After completing his checks, the officer returned my firearm, still holstered, without

issuing any citation. He even joked about how difficult it must have been to pass qualifications with

such a “whippy little gun”. I’m writing to highlight that while there may be some officers who,

unfortunately, overstep their authority with lawful carriers, this experience reaffirmed my belief thatPage – 5 – of 7

professionalism, transparency and respect go a long way. By clearly stating my intentions and following

the law to inform the officer, the encounter was calm and uneventful. The key takeaway for your

listeners are, 1) remain courteous, 2) communicate openly, and 3) follow both the law and the officer’s

instructions. In my case, doing so led to a safe and respectful outcome. Thank you for taking the time to

read this, and I hope the story can provide some value to those who may find themselves in a similar

situation.

Evan Nappen 19:57

So, what Lawrence said there is a lot of excellent advice. We have a Duty to Disclose, meaning you’re

required to tell the officer on that motor vehicle stop, or if you are detained at any time by an officer, that

you are carrying your concealed loaded firearm. You must produce your carry permit. Failure to

disclose to the officer is a crime of Fourth Degree, a felony level offense, with 18 months in State Prison

for not telling them. Failure to have your permit on you and show them is six months max on the

disorderly person’s offense. So, you need to do by law what Lawrence described that he did. It’s very

good to be respectful and be courteous and communicate openly and put both your hands on the

steering wheel. Remember, they have a tough job, our officers. We don’t want to make it worse. We

don’t want you to get shot because they see a gun, that’s for sure. So, let’s be practical and respectful.

That all makes sense.

Evan Nappen 21:16

Now, of course, you don’t have to give the detail necessarily about what gun you have and that there is

one in the chamber, or anything like that. But, you know, you do what you feel is appropriate. That’s

okay. But you do have to disclose that you are carrying, and you do have to show your permit. Always

be courteous and communicate openly and show respect. It does go a long way. Listen, gun owners

are pro-law enforcement. I’m pro-law enforcement. I don’t want to make their job any harder. All of us

together hate the bad guys. We do. We’re on the same page. So, show them that respect.

Evan Nappen 22:05

The problem in New Jersey is that there’s an agenda, and it’s normally not an agenda of the rank and

file. It’s an agenda from above, from the politics, the folks that are high level, either brass or

Prosecutors Offices, Attorney Generals Offices, which have an anti-gun agenda that they’re forcing

upon officers. Lots of times, there’s also straight-out misinformation taking place. So, as much as I

totally appreciate what Lawrence conveyed about what happened to him in Warren, New Jersey, and

my congratulations, not just to him, but to the officer, knowing the law, following it. This situation was

respectful and perfectly fine for all parties involved. That is not always the case, unfortunately.

Evan Nappen 23:22

Recently, I got a case which occurred in Central Jersey. My client, who is very well trained, knew the

Duty to Disclose law and knew his obligation. He got stopped for a minor, non-moving traffic matter. It

was just an expired registration sticker. He very courteously and respectfully immediately told the officer

under Duty to Disclose that he was carrying his firearm on his person and that he had a carry permit. At

which time, that officer placed him under arrest and proceeded to hold him for approximately half an

hour or more. The officer told him that under New Jersey law, you cannot transport your gun loaded onPage – 6 – of 7

your person, and that his entire department had been briefed about that. Not to allow individuals to

carry in their car. How nice.

Evan Nappen 24:41

One big problem. It’s absolutely not true. They are 100% wrong about the law. As a matter of fact, this

officer even foolishly said it’s the case law. Well, actually, it’s not the case law. The case law says that

the so-called Carjacker Protection bill, that’s what we called it, in the Carry Killer law, that the transport

of a loaded handgun on your person in a vehicle, was enjoined by Judge Renee Marie Bump, and that

injunction still holds, even on the appeal. You absolutely can carry loaded on your person. No problem.

This individual had his firearm taken, and it was unloaded. The officer said, we’re going to be so nice.

We’re just going to give you a warning. Aren’t we good? Great, great. Super. Great of us, huh? We’re

cutting you a break. We’re going to give you only a warning, and you have to lock your gun up in the

car. Do not carry it loaded again in your car. That is absolute garbage. He had no right to

disenfranchise this man of his right to self-defense, and he is completely wrong about the law – 100%.

Evan Nappen 26:18

It went the opposite of Lawrence’s story, and it was not because either Lawrence or this person was

disrespectful or was anything but courteous. No, no. So, what was the difference? What was the

distinction? What was the problem? The problem was ignorance of New Jersey gun law. And whose

fault is that ignorance? I’ll tell you whose fault it is – the Attorney General of New Jersey. Because the

Attorney General has not promulgated guidance to the law enforcement community and all the

departments, making it clear what was decided in the case law and advising officers throughout New

Jersey that carry in a vehicle is lawful now, that carrying on private property open to the public is lawful

now, and a host of other things that got determined in the litigation that causes innocent gun owners to

suffer. They need the guidance. It needs to be put out there. Then the lieutenants won’t advise

erroneously their men and women, and the men and women don’t enforce erroneously on law-abiding

citizens. Taking away their rights, and maybe even worse, and then possibly subjecting themselves to

civil rights actions, no less. So, let’s see the right thing here. Let’s see our great men and women in law

enforcement be given some solid guidance about how to properly handle these situations so that

everybody is safer and better served.

Evan Nappen 28:46

Now what about this week’s GOFU? Well, this week’s GOFU is something I’ve been seeing a lot of

,folks, and this one is really simple. Do not lie on gun applications. I have many cases where individuals

put the wrong answer down when applying for a Carry Permit, a Firearms ID Card, or a Pistol Purchase

Permit. Now, many times it’s not intentional. They didn’t understand the question, or they thought they

were somehow not covered by it. Do not guess. Find out for sure. Because if you fail to properly answer

truthfully any of those questions, not only will you face a denial of the license for falsification, and not

only does that harm your own reputation as painting you as a liar, but you also can face a criminal

charge for lying on the form, which carries up to five years in State Prison. This is, of course, a felony

level offense where you will lose your gun rights forever by that conviction. It’s extremely important that

you are extraordinarily careful when filling out these forms and that you do not lie even inadvertently or

misstate something. The consequences can run the gambit from denial of your ability to get that

particular license to facing Third Degree, felony level criminal charges. So, don’t be that GOFU. If youPage – 7 – of 7

have questions, contact an attorney that knows gun law. Buy my book at EvanNappen.com to help you

understand the questions and the answers that must be truthfully stated.

Evan Nappen 31:09

This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They

protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 31:18

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E208_TrascriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

View Details

Episode 207-Make Money Saving AmericaAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 207 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

President Trump, Electoral College, Elon Musk, America PAC, gun registration, gun confiscation, Second Amendment, gun rights, New Jersey, gun laws, gun safety, valet parking, gun transfer, gun ownership, gun training

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, how would you like to make money and save America at the same time? When I talk about saving America, I’m talking about this election, because it is literally going to be the most important election, not only in our lifetime, but probably in a century. I mean, it’s impossible to overstate how critical it is that we succeed. And by we, I mean President Trump gets reelected, because what is on the other side, as we’ve discussed, is absolutely the destruction of America versus making America the greatest country in modern history ever. And right now, we’re sliding down a slide, and without getting into all the other issues, we’re just thinking about our issue, which is, of course, Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 01:25
I want to bring to your attention something that’s really exciting. And I think if you are able to do this, not only can you make a decent amount of money, but you can help to save America. Part of the key to the saving of America is to see the success of President Trump, and that success is very much dependent upon winning in the swing states. As you know, we have the Electoral College, and because of that, it is not the person who gets the most votes in the country, but rather who wins the state by state by state, which empowers various states to have greater and more balanced political power. And so, our electoral college was really quite ingenious by our Founding Fathers, and it’s part of the reason we haven’t completely collapsed.

Evan Nappen 02:27
Because if the majority were to be the folks who select the President, then what it would mean is that the high concentration of urban centers would control America, because that’s where the population is. If you want to see the demise of such states in a microcosm, the states that are the worst have the largest, centered urban populations that sink the state for individual rights, especially gun rights. So, if you want to see the worst states for gun rights that are gun rights’ oppressive states, they have the largest urban populations. You know, look at Illinois, where you have Chicago and New York, New York City. New Jersey, which is part of the megalopolis, incredibly populated in multiple cities, like Jersey City, one of the most populated places on the planet. Look at all the bade states. To California. Look at the urban centers there. They sink the politics.

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Evan Nappen 03:41
So, just imagine that on a scale of the United States in general, and you can see why that’s not good. Of the key critical swing states, Pennsylvania is absolutely critical, and here’s where the money comes in that you can make. Here’s where we have something very exciting that I want to share with you. Elon Musk is an amazing man. He just is an amazing futurist. He is somebody that, when I hear him speak, he is just a fantastic person to listen to, and a guy that gets you thinking. Elon, as you may know, has come out completely in support of President Trump, and he puts his money where his mouth is. What he has done is create a PAC called the America Pack, www.TheAmericaPAC.org. (https://theamericapac.org/) Elon is now offering to pay $30 per hour, plus bonuses for performance, if you join their team to help in the swing states. Being that so many of my beloved listeners are from New Jersey and the surrounding area, Pennsylvania, that’s where the action is. Look. I know we need to fight in New Jersey, and I get it. But in the national picture, winning Pennsylvania is critical.

Evan Nappen 05:31
And if you can join here, not only can you make $30 an hour plus bonuses for performances but get ready for this. Elon, through TheAmericaPAC, will also pay $47 for each registered voter that you refer who signs a petition pledging support for the First and Second Amendment. That’s right. Elon is stepping up with millions and millions of dollars to help protect not just the First Amendment, and not just to save America, but to protect the Second Amendment as well. And you can become a part of this, a party here to this. I think October 21 is the deadline. So, you’ve got to jump on this now. Go to AmericaPack.org and make money and fight for the Second Amendment. Fight for America and take advantage of what Elon Musk is offering. I think he’s already spent $43 million a month helping Trump. And look, he’s a practical guy. He sees that the key to winning is votes. It’s not just throwing money at it for the sake of throwing money at it or running ads. He’s creating a system here that he’s paying for. To get out the vote and win the day. So, this is very exciting. Make sure if you can take advantage of this opportunity that you do. It’s critical, because we do not want to end up like Sri Lanka. That’s right.

Evan Nappen 07:30
I have an article here from AmmoLand, one of the great gun rights news services that I. I get all of them, my friends, and I look for important articles to share with you. This article is by one of their writers, who I greatly admire, and I love to read his stuff. It’s Dean Weingarten. It says, “Gun Registration in Sri Lanka Equals Gun Confiscation”. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/10/gun- registration-in-sri-lanka-equals-gun-confiscation/) So, you know, we’ve talked about gun registration, and you know the four words, right? If not, I’ll review them again. It begins with Legislation, which then creates Registration, and that leads to Confiscation, which then leads to Extermination. We’ve seen this pattern all throughout history, preceding every great Holocaust. We don’t want to go down that road at all. And here is Sarah Lanka illustrating for us phase three of the four words, because, according to Dean Weingarten from this great article, he said, “The Sri Lankan government has issued a gun confiscation directive requiring all people with firearms and a permit to possess them for self-defense to turn the firearms, ammunition, and permits they possess to the military authorities. The firearms must be surrendered by November 7, 2024.”

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Evan Nappen 09:07
Look at that, folks. Registration is leading directly to Confiscation. This is why the Biden-Harris Administration wants to make sure there’s no “ghost guns”. Whoo. You know guns with no serial number. Why? Well, then they’re real hard to confiscate, and you can’t register them with no serial number. That’s really what it’s about. They want to know where the guns are, so they can grab them and take them and disarm us and disenfranchise us from our Second Amendment rights. That’s what gun rights oppressors do, and that’s what we’re dealing with. Don’t fool yourself about a Kommiela who claims to be a gun owner and says she owns a Glock. Well, how nice. Except that she also is on record wanting confiscation of ALL Handguns. I guess that’s the definition of elitist, right there. Your guns get confiscated, but she owns a Glock, supposedly.

Evan Nappen 10:12
Let me say, just because someone’s a gun owner, does not mean they’re not a gun rights oppressor. The worst gun rights oppressors in history, during the existence of firearms, ALL owned firearms. Every tyrant, every dictator, every one of them, every Fascist, owned a gun. And guess what they did? Took away everybody else’s guns. But they were gun owners. Being a gun owner does not mean you’re not a gun rights oppressor. That doesn’t mean a damn thing. What matters is whether you stand with and for and in support of the Second Amendment. As demonstrated by her past history, she plainly does not. She’s called for confiscation of handguns, and she’s called for confiscation of modern sporting rifles. She’s a gun rights oppressor and needs to be stopped. So, Sarah Lanka is yet another example of why we oppose Registration. It leads, for a fact, to gun Confiscation.

Evan Nappen 11:34
And do you know who is helping to fight for us in New Jersey? Well, that is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier state gun rights organization. They’re the NRA affiliate. They’re the umbrella organization of gun rights protection, and they have individual members. You can be a member, and you really need to be a member. By being an individual member, you’re sent email alerts as to what’s going on in Trenton. You’re kept advised about the ongoing litigation that has been in federal court. Very successful! Continuing the fight to defeat the Carry Killer bill, the modern sporting rifle ban and the standard capacity magazine ban. Make sure you’re a member of your state Association. You can join the Association at ANJRPC.org. (www.anjrpc.org) That is the website for our great Association. It’s critical, especially these days, that you belong, because the fight is ever requiring our vigilance. By having a great group, we are united. So, go to anjrpc.org and join today.

Evan Nappen 13:14
Speaking of great places to join, we have our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, a premier range. It’s the range I shoot at. They offer you all the training and courses you need. You can get your New Jersey CCARE there to get your New Jersey Permit to Carry (PTC). They’re also offering the New York training so you can get your New York carry permit as well. They focus on helping folks to get licensed. If you know nothing about guns, go there and they’ll help you out. You’ll be well on the road to being a competent, responsible gun owner. And if you’re extremely skilled, they’ll be able to help you to practice and get even more training from really experienced people. They also have a great, great pro shop there. They run great events. WeShoot is in Lakewood, right there in

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Central Jersey. Easy to get to, right off the Parkway. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com, their website, with beautiful photography. WeShootUSA.com.

Evan Nappen 14:35
Right now, I have to shamelessly promote my book, which is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s entitled, not surprisingly, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. It is your user guide to staying safe and not being arrested, going to jail and being a GOFU in New Jersey. It’s the book that has saved a lot of gun owners a lot of grief, and I’m proud of it. It’s also a book used by law enforcement throughout New Jersey — State Police Firearms Unit, lawyers, judges. But most importantly, 1000s and 1000s of gun owners throughout New Jersey rely on it. And you can get your copy, too. Go to EvanNappen.com. www.EvanNappen.com. You will see the big orange book. Order it today, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. Factory fresh. Make sure you scan the front cover on that QR and join my subscriber base. It’s private. It’s free. You can access the archives, and you’ll get updates of any changes so that your book will stay current. So, go to EvanNappen.com and get your New Jersey Gun Law book. It will help you to stay free from the matrix of insanity, known as New Jersey gun laws.

Evan Nappen 16:20
I have some great Ask Evans, and I love getting the questions. This one’s from John with a question about the assault weapon ban. Good. I don’t know, maybe good. Currently building an AR-15 and already have a pistol grip, removing the ability to have a folding or telescopic stock. But my question is, if I render the telescopic stock inoperable utilizing something such as a stock Lok? Love the podcast and thank you for educating me and many others.

Evan Nappen 17:04
So, what I believe John is getting at is, how do you have a compliant AR-15 now. Of course, we have that great case that the Association, ANJRPC, helped to win finding that the AR-15 prohibition is unconstitutional, but it’s on appeal. So, don’t go relying on it yet. But we did great, and we’re going to expand it and do even better, I’m sure. For now, you want to remain compliant. So, how do you remain compliant? Well, when it comes to the compliancy, you look to the Attorney General Guidelines, which are in my book, by the way, a complete, actual copy of the guidelines. You can also find them online. The guidelines make it clear as to what the Attorney General views as compliant or non-compliant, so- called assault firearms, what we prefer to call modern sporting rifles.

Evan Nappen 18:08
The compliancy works like this. First of all, if the firearm is a semi-automatic rifle that takes a detachable mag. Okay, a semi-automatic rifle that uses a detachable magazine. Then you have to make sure you do not have more than one of the following offending features. You can have one, but you can’t have two. Two is no good. This is starting to sound like the Monty Python skit on the Holy Hand Grenade, but it’s actually how the Guidelines work. So, what are the offending features? Well, number one, a pistol grip is an offending feature. You can have one. So, you can have a pistol grip, but after that, you can’t have any of the other things. Those include a flash hider, a flash suppressor / flash hider. You cannot have a threaded muzzle, but you can have a muzzle break or a compensator. If you

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have that on there, you cannot have the threading usable. So, you need to pin it or weld it, but do not have a flash suppressor, a flash hider.

Evan Nappen 19:31
You cannot have a grenade launcher. I know a lot of you like to go out grenade launching on the weekends, but do not have that on your gun, because that’s a prohibited offensive feature. A telescoping or folding stock. That’s because, if you can move a stock a couple inches back and forth, you know that it makes it an incredibly deadly firearm whose only purpose is to kill hundreds and hundreds of people. That couple inch movement of the stock is just, you know, intrinsically deadly, right? Of course, I’m being unbelievably sarcastic. The bottom line is, look, it’s an offending feature. You need to make sure that the stock is either completely pinned or welded or glued so that it cannot move. Or simply use a fixed stock, the traditional fixed stock. Then you’re okay.

Evan Nappen 20:35
So, make sure you don’t have that offending feature of a telescoping or folding stock, and if you are pinning it with whatever device that it be sufficient and permanent. Otherwise, you may be looking at three and a half years minimum mandatory, with up to 10 years in State Prison for you daring to possess such a deadly firearm. Also, make sure you don’t have a bayonet mount, because that’s an offending feature. At least that one makes sense, because we’ve got to do something about all those drive by bayonettings, right? Oh, my God. So, beware of the offending features. Make sure your gun is compliant. And John, that is my advice to you. Thanks for the good question.

Evan Nappen 20:35
But if you have a telescoping or folding stock, I once had a case where my guy had his stock pinned, and the prosecutor was prosecuting him for possession of an assault firearm, even though he bought it lawfully from a dealer. The only other offending feature, other than a pistol grip, was a telescoping M4 type stock that had been pinned. But the prosecutor wanted to put my client, with no prior offenses, in State Prison for up to 10 years with the minimum mandatory three and a half years, because she felt it wasn’t sufficiently pinned. That’s right, whether it was or wasn’t sufficiently pinned should make the difference as to whether or not your little stock goes two inches back and forth. As to whether you do three and a half years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory sentence, sounds reasonable, don’t you think? Yeah, right. That’s what we’re dealing with here. That kind of mentality, folks.

Evan Nappen 22:51
Now I have another one from Jim. Okay, we’re doing the J’s today. Jim says, Thank you for your weekly podcast. It’s very informative. Well, thank you, Jim. My question is this. Suppose I’m going to dinner or an event where I must leave my gun in the car, locked, of course, in a locked box or console vault. When I arrive at the event, I see valet parking only. Could this be considered an illegal transfer of my firearm? Anything else I should be aware of? I look forward to your opinion.

Evan Nappen 23:23
Well, it wouldn’t be an unlawful transfer, because you’re not giving them possession of the firearm. As a matter of fact, you’ve secured it and locked it as you properly should have to avoid that very thing. If they’re taking your gun, they’re stealing your gun. You’re only giving them permission to park your car,

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and your firearm is secured in the manner prescribed under the statute, by the way, under the sensitive place exemption. So, as long as it’s locked, and make sure you have a good quality lock box and don’t leave the key on your key ring if it’s a locking one, so they can access it. You know, don’t do a GOFU like that, right? But if it’s inaccessible, you have it cabled to the seat the way they usually do, or have it built in so it can’t just be removed and walked away with and it’s secured in that fashion, then you’re not transferring, Jack, are you? So, that’s okay. But be very aware of otherwise leaving guns in cars. Because if it’s identified as such, then they may bring in law enforcement, and you may have an escalation.

Evan Nappen 24:34
Particularly bad. I’ve had many, many cases out of the casinos in New Jersey with a valet for some reason. I don’t know why. They’re just supposed to park the car. But somehow they ended up going through the glove boxes, the consoles the back of the seat. They’re like searching your car, and they find a gun and they call the police. My question. What were they looking for in the first place? Hmmmmm… Be careful of all your belongings when you valet park at the casinos, because obviously that’s what they’re up to. But if they find a gun, well, I’ve had many of those cases, and I don’t mean the gun in the secured lock box. I’m talking about, unfortunately, people that leave their gun in the car who come from other states, what have you, and they make a GOFU. The valet finds it. So, yeah, valet parking can be troublesome. They can be a big problem. Also, your valuables are subject to theft by them, not even talking about the guns. I hear horror story after horror story. I hate valet parking for that reason. But if you must valet park, make sure your gun is secured. It’s not an illegal transfer. It may lead to other problems, but not an illegal transfer. All right, Jim, thanks for a great question.

Evan Nappen 25:57
Let’s talk about this week’s segment that we all look forward to – the GOFU. That’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do we talk about GOFUs? And that’s because these are expensive mistakes made by other folks that you get to learn for free. It costs you nothing, so you don’t become the next GOFU. And this GOFU . . . Well, with this GOFU, I’m just going to talk about almost what qualifies as a public figure, the “Rust” armorer. That’s right. Remember Hannah Gutierrez-Reed? The dumb ass that had live ammunition on the movie set of “Rust” whose responsibility was to keep the place safe. She got convicted of the involuntary manslaughter. Even though the anti-gun Alec Baldwin got off based on the prosecutors’ failure to properly secure evidence and do their job, but she didn’t. She was convicted.

Evan Nappen 27:15
Well, guess what? She’s in even more trouble, even more trouble. You can read this article on TAG, The Truth About Guns. It’s by Mark Chesnut and titled “Rust Armorer In More Gun Trouble”. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/rust-armorer-in-more-gun-trouble/) But the reason I’m talking about it is it’s a great GOFU because of the more trouble she’s in. Forget about leaving live ammo where there shouldn’t be. That’s, of course, a GOFU on the part of her professionalism required to be an Armorer. But I’m not even talking about that. Get a load of this new stuff. When the investigator searched her cell phone during the “Rust” investigation, they found a video of her with a handgun in the bathroom of a bar, in the self-filmed video. It was shot a few weeks before the “Rust” movie filming, and she explained how she snuck the prohibited firearm into the establishment.

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Evan Nappen 28:21
So, obviously, in this jurisdiction, as in New Jersey, currently, you can’t have a gun in a liquor establishment, a licensed liquor establishment. Oh my. She pled guilty in exchange for 18 months of probation for this one, because she’s already doing time on the other one. So, what’s the GOFU here, folks? If you’re illegally carrying your gun, don’t film yourself doing it and brag about it. Do I have to say this? Do you need to write that one down? I mean, good grief. Can you believe this knucklehead was an Armorer at all? That she was in charge of gun safety issues at all? I mean, I think the negligence on the part of Baldwin was hiring her. There’s a negligence. It’s unbelievable with this person. Anyway, quit making videos and turning yourself into a GOFU. Believe me, I get cases where that’s the case. A video comes out like this, and I say, what were you thinking? Why was this even on video? Don’t be that guy or gal.

Evan Nappen 29:51
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 30:02
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E207_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 206-Red Flag Law Victimizes Another NJ Gun OwnerAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 206 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

Red Flag Law, gun owner gulag, anonymous tip, extreme risk protection order, legal firearms, assault firearms, social media posts, gun seizure, due process, constitutional violation, gun confiscation, constitutional carry, crime reduction, non-lethal carry, traffic stops

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, there was an article that just came out in northjersey.com, which is part of the USA Today News Network, and I guess it goes out in their print media as well. It’s an article by Lori Comstock, and it is entitled, ‘”Totowa man charged with ‘cache of illegal firearms’ released from jail, but case far from over.” This case, my friends, is a case that I am handling, and this involves. I’ll read you the first line of the article. “A 35-year old Totowa man charged last week with possessing a “cache of illegal firearms” following a tipster’s email to police was released from jail on conditions, but arguments among attorneys regarding the legality of the police search and of the guns has only just begun.”

Evan Nappen 01:28
You better believe it’s only just begun. So, here we have two of the key perils of being a New Jersey gun owner. First, you have the peril of the Red Flag Law, which we’re going to talk about here, and how it got used and abused. The second peril is the Gun Owner Gulag, and how treacherous those waters are, and how you better have an attorney that knows what they’re doing. Or you’re going to be waiting in jail, essentially until your trial. This article makes it clear and identifies Kyle Arena in the article. By the way, he has no prior offenses. He is an automotive welder of 17 or more years. He’s had no problems or interactions with the police. Yet, on September 24, 2024, somebody sent an anonymous email, anonymous, to the Totowa Police. The email included, and this is quote from the article. “The email included social media posts and photos purportedly showing Arena engaging in ‘reckless activity’ and posting about it on social media.”

Evan Nappen 03:07
Now, we were in front of State Superior Court Judge Thomas Rumana. After our arguments in fighting the Gun Owner Gulag where they wanted to hold them, we were able to get Mr. Arena released and that was absolutely the right thing to do. We got him released. He just has the lowest level of conditions in his release. Of course, while this is pending, he is not allowed to possess any weapons, and they’re holding his licenses. The article goes on to say that his licenses, both of which he lawfully possessed, according to his attorney, Evan Nappen, a Monmouth based litigator who specializes in gun law. Well, I don’t “specialize”. I have a focus on gun law. I’ve been working in that area for over 35 years. And as most of you know, I wrote the book New Jersey Gun Law.

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Evan Nappen 04:09
The article goes on to explain here, and it says that the police identified them as “illegal assault firearms”. This is from the article. “. . . while Nappen classified them as ‘modern sporting rifles’.” Which is exactly what they are. Not the pejorative term of “assault firearm”, even though “assault firearm” is actually found in New Jersey law, because when they passed the “assault firearm” law, they gave it that pejorative label. Then the article quotes me as well. “They appear to be assault firearms . . . ” They may. Let me start that again. “They appear to be assault firearms to the uneducated, but they’re not, said Nappen, who authored a 500 page-book on New Jersey’s gun laws. Nappen referenced a New Jersey State Police opinion letter and noted that the guns fall under the “other” category, or otherwise not identified as ‘assault’ weapons, due to their characteristics. ‘Why did he have these guns?’ Nappen asked rhetorically. ‘He’s a competition two-gun and three-gun shooter.” Arena obtained his guns legally from dealers and uses them in competitions.

Evan Nappen 05:41
You see, this is what we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with law-abiding gun owners being turned into criminals in New Jersey. Let’s take a look closely at the abuse of the Red Flag Law. In the article, it says it was a tipster’s email, and there was a claim that he had a “track record of posting illegal content on various Facebook groups.” First of all, “illegal content”? What? What? You know, the First Amendment, first of all. I didn’t know there was illegal content. All right. And the email attached several photos, and believed he was a danger to himself and others. And that, of course, is a load of crap. In one of the photos, there was an allegation that it was pointing it at a car with his hand on the trigger. As I pointed out, and as the article actually mentions, which is credit to them, that it was at best, pointing to a wooded area. It was not pointing at a car. But even with that, the photo itself is questionable as to its authenticity and its fake and/or doctored characteristics. These are all things that and think about this. All the police received was an anonymous tip, and then a look at these photos. These photos are a year to two years old even, and there’s no threats made against any person. No threats made against any group. Nothing. Just pictures of guns and these false allegations.

Evan Nappen 07:38
So, did the police go and speak to Mr. Arena? No, of course not. Did they maybe make an inquiry, ask about or anything, talk to him? Nothing. No, no, no, no. You see, their immediate reaction, simply based on anonymous tip and looking at posts that are years old, was to get an Extreme Risk Protection Order (ERPO), what is known as a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order (TERPO). Then it can become a Final Extreme Risk Protection Order. These are called ERPOs, but we commonly call them Red Flags. Under New Jersey’s ERPO Law, ERPOs are the general title given them – Extreme Risk Protection Order. It starts with the TERPO, which is the Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order, in which there is absolutely no due process upfront. It gets done ex parte. The person has no knowledge that it takes place. In this case, the police didn’t even bother to talk to the person in advance to even try to find out the truth about the matter. Then from that TERPO there will later be a hearing to decide whether it’s going to be a Final or what’s called a FERPO. So, you have an ERPO, and then you have a TERPO. Then it can become a FERPO, and if it’s held in Burlington County or Bergen County, you end up with a BURPO. I’m just kidding about the BURPO. That was a joke.

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Evan Nappen 09:15
So, this is something where it is ripe for abuse. This TERPO then led to a raid and a seizure of his home and his property. Every New Jersey gun owner can be subject to this action with an anonymous tip with BS just sent to the police. Boom. Boom. You are labeled an extreme risk. Your home and privacy are invaded, and your firearms, weapons and ammunition are confiscated with no due process until the day finally comes where you can have the hearing on the TERPO. After all that damage has already been done. We’re going to be challenging, of course, the Fourth Amendment grounds for this search and seizure.

Evan Nappen 10:17
As the article mentioned, I raised the violations of the Second Amendment and referred to the recent federal court’s decision where the ban on AR-15s was found unconstitutional. All the firearms were platformed as AR-15s. In fact, one of the guns specifically was a Troy. It was a Troy. That’s right. The “other” made by Troy. The Troy A4. The one that the State Police specifically address. And it’s those characteristics and that entire opinion that you can find online that explains why they’re not assault firearms. (https://www.dark-storm.com/images/DSI-NJSP-Firearm-Letter.pdf) But it didn’t stop the State and the Totowa Police, and the criminal charges being made.

Evan Nappen 11:13
Remember, folks, possession of an assault firearm is an extremely serious offense. Every gun carries up to 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory of three and a half years. And remember, under the Gulag law, the Gun Owner Gulag law, if you’re charged with possession of an assault firearm, you are required by the State to be given a recommendation of “not to be released”. That’s right. You are put in the same category as those charged with murder and those that are lifers who are looking at three strikes and you’re spending life in prison. You are put in that category over this mere allegation. It doesn’t matter. That’s what they do.

Evan Nappen 12:01
Luckily, I was able to overcome that and was able to get him out. Now we’re going to have the fight, and I’ll be talking about this in much more detail as time goes on. But I had to respond to this article that you can see online, if you wish, or maybe you’ve read it already in hard copy. These are the perils and dangers of being a New Jersey gun owner. You can become a victim of New Jersey gun law with the most minor and anonymous allegations being made. It’s an outrage. It’s a civil rights violation. It is a Constitutional violation on multiple Constitutional fronts. This is something that every one of us needs to be greatly concerned with in the state of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 13:04
Yet, this is what Kommiela Harris wants to impose on the entire United States, folks. That’s right. She wants to push National Red Flag so that every state abuses every citizen. And I say, look at New Jersey, and the failure of New Jersey. Remember, Kommiela also wants to confiscate guns. She stated it, man. I have an article here from the NRA-ILA. It’s entitled “Canada’s Confiscation Scheme — A Lesson for America.” You can go to nraila.org, and you can see this article. (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20240930/canada-s-confiscation-scheme-a-lesson-for-america) This piece came out September 30, 2024, and it’s very interesting.

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Evan Nappen 13:55
The very first paragraph of this article looking at Canada’s gun confiscation scheme says, “Vice President and Democrat presidential candidate Kamala . . . ” They, of course, call her Kamala. “. . . Harris has, in the past, been forthcoming about her support of gun confiscation and mandatory ‘buybacks.'” They give you the citations right in the article here, and you can see them for yourself. “. . . and there’s little reason to believe that she has changed her values.” The NRA then takes a look at Canada. You can read the whole article. It’s very interesting.

Evan Nappen 14:34
Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, as the article says, instructed his ministers to examine a “full ban on handguns and assault firearms.” They’re looking to invoke this mandatory ban and mandatory confiscation program in Canada. They’re talking about it in two phases, what’s called the business phase (Phase 1) and the individual phase (Phase 2). They’re looking to start it very shortly now, because it’s been in the works, in the works. They’ve already spent, folks, according to the NRA article, C$67 million on this program. It’s just astounding. And if you think that our lefty neighbors to the north where they’re putting this through, now granted they’re not protected by a Second Amendment in Canada, they could have been if they let us win against them in the revolution. But I digress. Instead, now they’re looking at what Kommiela essentially wants to do in America.

Evan Nappen 16:01
Say, I want to bring to your attention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a great range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They’re holding a very special sale, and I want to let you know about it. Fifteen percent (15%) off all pre-loved guns. That’s right. Guns that have been pre-owned, and it’s 15% off. I want to make sure you know that WeShoot is now offering New York City carry certifications. So, if you want to get your New York City carry, which also allows you to carry in New York State, you’re going to need to get a New York carry certification, and WeShoot is offering it. So, check out weshootusa.com. If you’ve never shot at WeShoot, well, you owe yourself a favor. You need to go there and check it out. It’s a fantastic range. It’s where I shoot, my brother shoots, my son shoots and where we got our certifications. They have great guns and gear, great training, and just a wonderful range right there in Lakewood, New Jersey, easily accessible right off the Parkway. It’s a great resource for anyone in New Jersey, particularly Central Jersey. Geez, it’s a breeze to get there and have a great time. Make sure you check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 17:31
Now here’s an interesting little article that I want to make sure you’re all aware of. This is an article that I got from AmmoLand, a great news aggregate site. I love AmmoLand. (https://www.ammoland.com/) I subscribe to dozen different gun rights at aggregate news sites, and AmmoLand is a really good one. This is an article from October 2, 2024, by my friend Dave Workman. It’s a very interesting point that Dave makes here, and I want to bring it to your attention. The title of the article is “FBI Report Shows Dramatic Violent Crime Drop as 29 States Went Permitless.” (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/10/fbi- report-shows-dramatic-violent-crime-drop-as-29-states-went-permitless/)

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Evan Nappen 18:15
That’s right, folks. As 29 states are constitutional carry, there’s been this incredible decrease in crime. Yet, you never see this in the media. They always want to make you think more guns, more crime, but it’s the opposite that is true. Let me read you just the first line or so from the article that Dave wrote. “The FBI’s national crime report for 2023 shows a record-breaking decline in murders during a year when the number of states adopting so-called ‘constitutional carry’ rose to 29, undercutting a popular — and obviously false — claim by the gun prohibition lobby that more guns result in more crime.” He’s absolutely right, and it’s an excellent point that he’s making. If you want to read more in the article, by all means, go to AmmoLand.com and check it out.

Evan Nappen 19:07
Just think. We also not only have 29 states with constitutional carry, which is permitless carry, where you don’t need the permission slip to carry, but all the other states that have “shall issue” permits now, including New Jersey, thanks to St. Thomas of the Supreme Court and the Bruen decision. So, all that is impacting dramatically on crime. As Dave points out, “According to the FBI ‘national violent crime’ . . .” According to their statistics here, listen to this. Murder and non- negligent manslaughter decreased 11.6% in 2023. The estimated number of offenses in the revised rape category saw a 9.4% decrease. Aggravated assaults decreased by 2.8%. And robbery decrease by 0.3% nationally.

Evan Nappen 20:02
So, we’re seeing this great drop in crime, while you see the expansion of our right to carry. Oh, what a shock! It’s not shocking. But, of course, the media doesn’t talk about that, do they? They don’t make it clear that, in fact, the growth of our Second Amendment right to carry and to allow citizens to no longer be victims, but to be defenders, is a fantastic deterrent and causes crime reduction of the most heinous and violent crimes that we face. So, that’s a great point by Dave Workman, and I wanted to make sure that you all were aware of it.

Evan Nappen 20:51
There’s another thing that I saw, and this is from Cam Edwards on bearing arms. (https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2024/10/04/supreme-court-will-decide-fate-of-mexicos-lawsuit- against-us-gunmakers-n1226460#google_vignette) This article says that the “Supreme Court Will Decide Fate of Mexico’s Lawsuit Against U.S. Gunmakers.” This is a very important case. Because the Supreme Court of the United States, what we commonly call SCOTUS, has granted cert, meaning they will decide the case. Now we will get an opinion from them in what is the case of “Smith & Wesson Brands et al. versus Estados Unidos Mexicanos, in other words, the Mexican Government.

Evan Nappen 21:30
They brought a $10 billion lawsuit against multiple gun owners and gun manufacturers. These manufacturers include Smith & Wesson, Beretta, Century International Arms, Colt Glock and Interstate Arms, and they’re alleging that the companies are aiding and abetting drug cartels in Mexico by manufacturing and selling guns like AR-15s and magazines that can hold more than 10 rounds. This whole case surrounds now concerns the protection of the Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which is protecting our firearm manufacturing industry from being sued out of existence, which is a ploy by the

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gun rights oppressors. Mexico has jumped into the gun rights oppression in American movement by suing the makers of the guns we know and love. Trying to bankrupt them with this nonsense claim.

Evan Nappen 22:33
Originally the case got dismissed, but then it got reinstated by a gun rights oppressive federal appellate court. Now the U.S. Supreme Court will be examining this issue. And you know, the claim by Mexico essentially boils down to, ready? That aiding and abetting criminal activity must involve something more than just making products generally available while knowing that criminals may misuse them. Yeah, well, they can misuse cars, too. Maybe we should sue over the cars that they import into America that are used by criminals as well in the commission of their crimes. Maybe Mexico owes us billions for cars that they manufacture that get used by criminals. I mean, it’s just as stupid.

Evan Nappen 23:32
So, I am really looking forward to the Supreme Court doing their opinion on this. It will also possibly have some important impact to New Jersey that has its own state law where they’re also trying to bankrupt and go after the gun companies for their lawful manufacturer, trying to work on other loopholes and such that they’re trying to create. New Jersey set up an entire office manned by the Attorney General trying to go after gun companies and such. I think once the Supreme Court speaks to the Lawful Protection of Arms Act Commerce and Arms Act here in this case, we may, in fact, get some other very useful language out of the Supreme Court in combating this tactic used by the gun rights oppressors.

Evan Nappen 24:28
I’ve gotten some great Ask Evan letters, but before I do that, I want to make sure you know to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the number one gun rights defenders in New Jersey. They’re the NRA affiliate officially, and they have a full time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They are the group that is litigating, as we speak, in the federal courts, challenging New Jersey’s gun rights oppression laws, including the modern sporting rifle ban, the standard capacity magazine ban, and the Carry Killer bill, just to name a few. They have made tremendous progress on these fronts. As the fight continues, you really need to be a member. You should be embarrassed if you’re not a member of your state association. It’s anjrpc.org. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is an umbrella organization of gun clubs, but they have individual members, too. You need to be part of the solution by belonging to the Association. By doing so, you’re going to get their email alerts as to the shenanigans going on down in Trenton and the progress being made in our litigation. It’s really stuff you want to know, and it keeps you on top of things. You end up protecting yourself as well as our rights. So, please make sure you join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. (anjrpc.org)

Evan Nappen 26:02
This is when I shamelessly promote my book New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages, and it explains 120 topics in a question and answer format. It is used by the State Police Firearms Unit, law enforcement agencies, lawyers, judges, and most importantly, 1000s of law-abiding gun owners in New Jersey. Stay on the right side of the law in this treacherous and perilous environment for gun owners called New Jersey. I’ve made it very user friendly. Get your copy by going

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to EvanNappen.com and see the big orange book right there at EvanNappen.com. Click the book, get the book, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. Scan that front cover, that QR code, and subscribe for free to my subscriber base. It’s a private list where you will get updates and be able to access the archives of any updates that I’ve done. This keeps you informed. Make sure you get your 25th Anniversary Edition today.

Evan Nappen 27:09
So, here are some great letters that I want to share with you, from my beloved listeners. This is from Syed, and he says, Regarding Gun storage laws in New Jersey. Hi, Evan. Big fan of the show. I find it really awesome and very educational. Thank you. I have a question regarding gun storage in New Jersey in one’s home. Can a handgun be kept loaded with a full magazine inside a locked safe which no one except me has access to or does it have to be unloaded with ammo kept locked in a separate container? This is for purposes of home defense. I have looked around for answers, but there is conflicting information everywhere. I’ll appreciate if you could help me out.

Evan Nappen 27:48
Okay, I’m happy to. Number one, you absolutely can keep a loaded firearm in your gun safe. What New Jersey law prohibits is allowing a minor to access your loaded firearm. As long as you’re not allowing a minor to access your loaded firearm, you can have your loaded gun in your gun safe. You can have your loaded gun under your pillow. You can have your loaded gun on your person in your home. You can have your loaded gun everywhere and anywhere in your home, as long as you’re not allowing a minor to access the loaded gun. There is no problem with that.

Evan Nappen 28:30
As a matter of fact, in the Heller decision, which challenged Washington, D.C.s requirement that you keep guns unloaded and secured and broken down into pieces and all. That’s unconstitutional to require that, even under the Second Amendment in the landmark, Heller case. So, yes, you may do so but do so responsibly and safely. Do not allow unauthorized parties to access your firearm, and never allow a minor to access your loaded firearms. The key is safety in that regard. But there’s no law otherwise stopping you from having firearms to defend yourself in your home. Thanks for a great question, Syed.

Evan Nappen 29:19
This is from Anthony regarding Non lethal carry. Dear Mr. Nappen. Is anyone working on non-lethal carry in Jersey? I realize that we can get a carry permit, but for some like my wife, who does not want to carry a lethal weapon, but would like to carry, say, a Byrna type defense gun or stun gun or larger mace would be good for her. I know the state is unreasonable, but if you can carry lethal guns, why not non lethal? By the way, your podcasts are great. Thank you, Anthony.

Evan Nappen 29:52
Anthony, thank you, and I appreciate your compliments. Let me just explain. Yes, New Jersey is ridiculous. New Jersey will give you a Permit to Carry a lethal weapon — a handgun loaded concealed on your person with a carry — but there is no such license for carrying less than lethal. The only less

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than lethal device you may carry is three quarters of an ounce of pepper spray, etc. That’s it. That’s the only thing that’s exempted.

Evan Nappen 30:25
If you’re going to carry less than lethal but it is more than three quarters of an ounce of pepper spray, or if you’re going to try to carry a Byrna as we’ve discussed on the show, or carry a stun gun, as we’ve discussed on the show, the problem is the case law in New Jersey does not find and, specifically, at the moment, says that if you go outside your home and you preemptively arm yourself with a weapon, even though it’s for self-defense, it’s not a manifest lawful purpose. You can still be prosecuted for that. As ridiculous as that statement is that self-defense outside your home is not a manifest lawful purpose. That’s the current case law now. Until that case law changes, where we get a court to actually apply the principles of Bruen to say that self-defense outside the home is Constitutionally protected, which it is, then that will invalidate that. Then the less than lethal can be carried. But until then, if you do, you might become the test case on that very issue. I don’t want to tell you to become a test case, but if you do become a test case, give me a call. Maybe we’ll change the law together. But that’s the risk that you take, and I want you to be aware of that.

Evan Nappen 31:42
Now, this letter is from Nicholas. Nicholas says, Regarding 77 years old and have a New Jersey CCW, meaning a PTC. Hello. I’m 77 years old and have a NJ CCW coming up for renewal. Are you aware of any changes in New Jersey law that would prevent me from renewing due to my age? Are there any bills in process that could stop me from renewing? Thank you, Nicholas.

Evan Nappen 32:09
Ah, Nicholas, good question. Here’s where you might be getting some conflicting information. Let me straighten it out. RPO cards, Retired Police Officer cards, in fact, act as what’s regarded as the ability for retired police officers to carry. It is sometimes looked at as being a RPO carry license, but it’s actually a card that creates a special exemption under the statute. But don’t worry about the technical when it comes to issuing of this state RPO card. There is an age limit there for law enforcement, believe it or not, at 75, but there is no age limit on a New Jersey Permit to Carry. They do not engage in age discrimination with the carry permit in New Jersey. So, when you apply for renewal, your age is not a per se disqualifier for getting a permit to carry in New Jersey. Nor should it be, because that is flat out age discrimination.

Evan Nappen 33:15
Now if you have certain problems that might come with age, you know, if you’re like the President, the senile sock puppet, then of course, someone like that shouldn’t have a gun. Obviously, they’re not, you know, they’re not competent to have a gun. But, as long as you’re competent to have a gun, your age is not a factor. You’re fine. There is no per se disqualifier. So, Nicholas, you should not have a problem simply because you are 77 years old, and God bless you. I hope you continue to have a long, long life and carry to protect your life. As a matter of fact, when you think about it, what better use for a carry permit than when you are older and not as readily able to defend yourself. By all means, it’s even more important that you know how to defend yourself, and a firearm can be a great advantage in that.

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Evan Nappen 34:14
Now, I have a letter here from Romero. Romero says, I have a Remington 700 barrel only, with no action, just the barrel. I replaced the barrel with a new one. My question is: how would I dispose of the old barrel? The barrel has no serial number. The serial number is on the action.

Evan Nappen 34:30
Well, Romero, a gun barrel is just a barrel. It’s not a receiver. It’s not a firearm. It’s just a barrel. It’s a tube. There’s nothing in New Jersey law or that federal law that would prevent you from putting the barrel in the trash. It’s that simple. It’s just a barrel. That’s it. Nothing else special. Now, if you feel worried about doing that? Well, you could, you know, cut it into pieces, or cut it in half. You could do that if you wanted to or do something else to it if you felt necessary. You don’t need to. It’s just a barrel. It’s just a tube. It’s not regulated, and it is simply scrap metal. If it’s completely unusable as far as wear on the rifling or whatever reason you replaced it, in that case, toss it. All good. You know, it’s just piece of steel that is no longer useful to you. So, no problem there.

Evan Nappen 35:36
Now we have the moment that you’ve all been waiting for — the GOFU. The GOFU, Gun Owner Fuck Up. We love them! Not that they happen to good people, but because you get to learn an expensive lesson for free. So that you don’t become the next GOFU. Now, this GOFU is based on a letter, and actually the GOFU has not happened yet. So, I really like that. Although it has the full potential to be a GOFU. I’ve seen GOFUs come about from this. So, I’m glad Andrew has written this letter. Andrew says, Regarding Traffic stops. Hey, Evan, I’ve been listening to your podcast for a long time and appreciate the work your firm as well as you do on this podcast. It helps me clear away some of the fog of New Jersey gun laws. Yeah, it’s like the fog of war, isn’t it? The video link I sent is in reference to you always reminding us not to answer police questions without a lawyer. Yeah, that’s always good. It’s from a show called Mr. Inbetween. Okay, I haven’t had a chance to watch that, but that’s cool. My question, though, has to do with traffic stops and the officer asking if I have any weapons in the vehicle. What exactly do they mean by weapons? Technically, anything in my vehicle can be a weapon, no? My hands, my cell phone, possibly a pen or a pencil. I’m no John Wick, but still a writing implement can be used as a weapon. So how do I answer the question about weapons in my possession if I’m pulled over for a traffic violation, if I don’t have a knife or firearm on me? Thanks again.

Evan Nappen 37:09
Okay, Andrew, we need to step back here, man. We have to go to the premise of your question. The question is what do you do if you’re asked about firearms or weapons. The answer is, you don’t answer any questions. You don’t have to answer any questions. You can say, “I don’t answer any questions.” Now the exception here, of course, is this. If you’re carrying a handgun with a carry permit loaded concealed on your person, then you have a Duty to Disclose that. The law requires a permit holder, as we’ve discussed before on the show, to tell the officer and to show your Carry Permit. But short of that, you don’t have to answer any questions. You don’t have to think of every conceivable weapon you might have. No less, tell the officer about it. Just shut up. Don’t answer. Simply say I don’t answer any questions. Or why are you asking me that question? If you want to ask. Why are they asking you that? Why? There’s no reason to be asking that. If the officer wants to do a pat down on you, he’ll do a pat down. You cannot and never should resist.

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Evan Nappen 38:25
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that the gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Evan Nappen 38:25
But they have to have some basis, some reason, something. But just to go on a fishing expedition when you’re pulled over and start asking you all kinds of questions. Do you have any weapons? Do you have any drugs? Do you ever have strange thoughts about women? I mean, what? Where does it end. No. Stop. Produce your driver’s license, registration, and insurance. If you have a Duty to Disclose, produce your Permit to Carry, and that’s it, folks. Nothing else. I know it’s difficult, but you have got to stand on your rights. Because if you start volunteering about all kinds of things that you think are weapons or might be weapons, guess what? Now, you’ve opened the door. Now, it’s going to be an escalation to who knows what, and none of that was necessary. So, don’t be a GOFU. Stand on your rights.

Speaker 3 39:29
Gun Lawyers is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E206_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 205-Episode 205-Biden Harris Releases Gun Rights Oppression “Progress” Report Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 205 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun rights, firearms, gun, oppression, guns, gun violence, folks, bragging, law, oppress, new jersey, dealer, mobilizing, stolen, antimony, report, called, government, harris, executive actions

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, the White House, the Biden-Harris Administration, just released their one year progress report that they euphemistically call the “Office of Gun Violence Prevention (OGVP)”. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/09/white-house-releases-gun-violence- prevention-office-progress-report/) But in reality, it’s the Office of Gun Rights Suppression, because that’s what they do. They work on suppressing and oppressing our gun rights.

Evan Nappen 00:54
So, this Office of gun Rights Oppression has released a report detailing all the wonderful work they’ve done in oppressing our gun rights, and I want to review this report with you. You can access it online. (https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Year-One-Report-Final.pdf) It comes from the White House. Interestingly, the report throughout it refers to the report as the “Biden-Harris Administration”. So, it’s not President Biden. It’s the Biden-Harris Administration, by the White House’s own words. The key to remember here, folks, as gun owners, is that Vice President Harris was placed in charge of and oversaw the so-called “White House Office of Gun Violence Prevention”, which we’re going to call the “White House Office of Gun Rights Oppression. She’s the Head and Chief Oppressor.

Evan Nappen 02:11
Now, you better realize that this election is just that critical. We have a bona fide gun rights oppressor working toward incredible amounts of gun rights oppression that is proudly putting out a report of gun rights oppression. And you need to know what’s in this that they are bragging about, my friends, bragging about. It’s disgusting. If any of my listeners, I can’t imagine that you actually would fall for the lies from Komeela about her being “a gun owner”. That doesn’t mean anything. Some of the worst persons in history of the world, since there were firearms, were “gun owners”, and they were some of the most deadly of gun rights oppressors. So, being a gun owner doesn’t count for anything. What matters is what you’ve actually done.

Evan Nappen 03:24
Here we have a Biden-Harris administration bragging about gun rights oppression, putting it in their propaganda term of “gun violence prevention”. Of course, it’s gun violence, right? And so, what do they do here? They lay out their accomplishments and their roadmap to destroy our Second Amendment rights. You would think that our leaders, that those that have taken an oath to uphold the Constitution,

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would instead create a White House Office of Gun Rights Protection, expanding and protecting our cherished Constitutional rights. But no, no. This is about oppressing our rights.

Evan Nappen 04:22
Let’s take a look and take a dive into their report, the Biden-Harris record of gun violence prevention. So, that’s what they’re giving a background in. And of course, the translation is the Biden-Harris record of gun rights oppression, and what do they brag about? Well, this Office is dedicated to coordinating across Federal government and partnering with gun violence survivors, law enforcement, state and local officials, and community leaders with the shared goal of reducing gun violence. Or, in the alternative, increasing gun rights oppression.

Evan Nappen 05:06
So, how do they do this? Well, they start off with a big block quote framed in a black frame of Komeela, saying the following, and please don’t be fooled by anything she says to make you think that your gun rights are safe for you to vote for her or any Democrat for that matter. Here’s what she said, “President Biden and I have worked to address the epidemic of gun violence with the urgency it demands by enacting the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act . . .”, which was hardly bipartisan. You got a handful of Republican RINOs (Republican in Name Only) joining in. That’s it. They call it “Bipartisan”. Good grief. ” . . . – the most significant gun safety law . . .”. More of their garbage. It has nothing to do with “safety”. “. . . in nearly 30 years – and launching the first-ever White House Office of Gun” Rights Oppression. “In the year since President Biden asked me to oversee this office, our Administration has improved and expanded background checks, announced the single largest investment in youth mental health in history, and been an unprecedented resource to state, cities and local communities. We have also supported, convened, and worked alongside gun violence survivors, the families of those who have lost loved ones to shootings . . .” Oh, to shootings, not to crime, but just shootings. “. . . and other impacted individuals to tackle the trauma caused by gun violence.” Code speak gun violence. “I am committed to continuing this urgent work to ensure that every person in our nation has the freedom to live safe from gun violence.”

Evan Nappen 07:16
So, let’s take another look at that last line, folks. “I am committed to continuing this urgent work to ensure that every person in our nation has the freedom . . .” Do you believe this? The freedom. Their version of freedom is gun rights oppression. It’s taking away liberty, taking away rights. Only the twisted mind of a Democrat and of these progressive oppressors would twist it to their supporting freedom. What a joke. So, what’s the brags? Oh, here they go. “Expediting the Implementation of the Bipartisan Safer Community Act and Executive Actions to Address Gun Violence.” (BSCA) Oh, do you mean Executive Actions without the backing of the Legislature to oppress gun rights?

Evan Nappen 08:10
Well, what are they bragging about? Number one, “Expanding gun background checks and making clear that the gun show loophole does not exist.” Isn’t that weird wording? Like, that’s just weird. The gun show loophole doesn’t exist. But they’re making clear the gun show loophole doesn’t exist. Well, if the gun show loophole doesn’t exist, which we said it didn’t exist, why are you passing this to shut the gun law loophole? Now don’t expect an explanation. But they’re bragging about finalizing the rule by

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making it clear about the circumstances in which a person is engaging in the business, which is far from making anything clear. That freaking rule, that rule essentially makes it that anybody who sells a gun for profit can be deemed a dealer. Period! Period. They got rid of “for livelihood” in the definition, because those dumbass RINOs went along with it, and they’re using it to claim that anybody who wants to sell a gun for a profit at all. As a matter of fact, you don’t have to sell it for a profit. That’s how broad it is. You can be prosecuted for being an unlicensed dealer. So, this mechanism is in place, folks.

Evan Nappen 09:28
“Enhancing Gun Background Checks for Individuals Under Age 21.” What did they do? They’ve created a waiting period, a delay period. Even though you’re an adult. You can be drafted. They impose the draft. You can die for your country at 18, but you’re going to have to wait even longer and go through an extended background check if you’re under 21. Enforcing gun trafficking straw purchasing laws. As they contrive these offenses all the time against law-abiding citizens, where they create the crime for the person. “Keeping Guns Out of the Hands of Abusive Dating Partners.” So, you always want to see that expansion under that domestic violence federal definition, because that is one of the ways of gun grabbing. They have to find every mechanism to disenfranchise us, and this has been just a beauty for them. So, the more you can expand the ability to seize under a banner of domestic violence. You’ve seen that go nuts in Jersey all the time. I get those cases every week, all the time. It’s a never-ending flow. What you see is an abuse of the system, and I’ve talked about that on the show before.

Evan Nappen 10:57
Oh, and how about this one. “Implementing State Red Flag Laws.” Red flag! Red flag. Take guns without due process. That’s what New Jersey does. Their red flag has no due process until after. Until after your home’s been raided, your guns have been seized and you’ve been declared, under a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order (TERPO) to be an extreme risk. Then you finally get your day in court. How nice. This is just an absolutely unbelievable violation of our civil liberties, and they’re looking to enhance it because it’s another way to grab guns. “Establishing the Extreme Risk Protection Order Resource Center.” Keep pushing it. This is their gun grab. It’s great. All it takes is any person to make a claim of any sort, ex parte, meaning without you even knowing. Next thing you know, your Second Amendment rights have been taken, and you’re in jeopardy of losing them forever.

Evan Nappen 12:03
Oh, then they like to brag that in the Bipartisan Safer Community Act, “Identifying Stolen Guns.” The Justice Department has published an interim final rule to implement the provision of the BSCA. I love that it’s BS, because it surely is the “BS”CA. That allows a licensed gun dealer to search the records of stolen firearms in the National Crime Information Center to determine whether a firearm the dealer is acquiring is reported stolen. This change will disincentive individuals from stealing guns and make it more difficult to sell stolen guns to pawn shops. Let me just say, folks, just like a blind squirrel finds a nut, I’m totally in favor of dealers being able to identify whether guns are stolen. Because stolen guns are absolutely something that any law-abiding gun owner would oppose. I don’t want my gun stolen. I’m sure you don’t want your gun stolen. We don’t want to market in stolen guns. So, on its face, this is actually one of the only good things found in that bill. Except, guess what? This was supposed to have been implemented already, and it still is not available to dealers. They’ve allowed this to go on and on. They don’t want this database searchable by dealers. They’re playing it out like it’s great, but they don’t

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want that. For years, they could have done this. They could have made it accessible. No, no. They keep that database there as a trap so that dealers can be charged with unknowingly taking in stolen guns, and individuals can be charged with possessing stolen guns that they didn’t even know were stolen. They don’t want this accessible. They know that this will actually do good and help gun owners, but they don’t want it implemented. I’m still waiting for this database to be available. Haven’t seen it yet. It’d be great. It would actually have impact and make it so that you could tell whether a gun was stolen or not. At least, get an idea if it’s been reported stolen. But nope. They’re bragging about it, but they’re not actually doing it. They don’t actually really want it because it truly is something helpful. God forbid.

Evan Nappen 14:36
Oh, how about this? “Investing in Youth Mental Health.” Do you want to know what that means? Creating mental health disqualifiers as the abusive mental health system takes youths and puts them in mental health facilities on the flimsiest of grounds. So, now you have a mental health commitment that is a disqualifier for guns. It’s treated exactly the same as an adult. If any of you have had a mental health stay as a juvenile because your parents put you in there because you basically weren’t behaving and they didn’t know what to do, you’re now prohibited from guns. You need to get a mental health expungement before you can even possess firearms. That’s right. This is to increase that by who knows how many. To create more disqualified persons. Create gun seizures and create disqualified persons. You see the agenda. It’s called “gun rights oppression”, and they’re damn proud of it.

Evan Nappen 15:37
Then the so-called “Investing in Safer Communities.” That’s to coordinate with communities to increase gun rights oppression. Then they have “Implementing Executive Actions. Promoting Safe Storage of Firearms. That’s right, it’s called lock up your safety. Make sure that your security and protection is not accessible to you when you need it most. Lock them up so you can’t use them. And when they come to seize, they know exactly where they are so they can grab them. Very important. They’re talking about “Publishing Information Regarding Firearms Trafficking.” That’s the propaganda wing of gun rights oppression.

Evan Nappen 16:13
“Stopping the Threat of Undetectable Firearms.” Ooooh, scary ghost guns. Oh, you mean privately manufactured firearms? Something Americans have been doing since before this country was a country. That’s right. What’s the threat of an undetectable firearm? The threat of that undetectable firearm is that the Government doesn’t know about the gun or where it is. Oh, they say, well, you’re going to sneak through a metal detector. No, they can’t. Because the detectors aren’t all about metal, right? They can look and see. So, if you’re actually going through them, metal is almost an irrelevancy in modern technology. No, it’s about more regulation, more oppression and salami tactics across the board of this gun is evil. That gun is bad. This one is intrinsically problematic and selling it to the public. So, they can just take, take, take.

Evan Nappen 17:10
“Preventing Firearms Developed for the Military from Being Sold to the Public.” I’ll read into that, folks. As our gun manufacturers and makers create new and better technology, put a label on it as military, and then not be able to sell it to civilians. So, you can’t get the best optics. You can’t get the most

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accurate guns. Who knows what? Stop that technology. Make sure that only the elitists in our weaponized Government have the firearms. “Funding Community Violence Interventions.” More funding to help their political cronies get money.

Evan Nappen 17:48
They use all this to forward gun rights oppression, and now they have new executive actions that the Biden-Harris Administration has announced during this entire time. This is more gun rights oppression by executive fiat, without any legislation. Just dictatorship-type tactics, fascist-type tactics. Where it’s just declared. Such as “Declaring Gun Violence a Public Health Crisis.” Why is that significant? Well, if you can tie it to public health, then you can tie it to healthcare. Then they can jam it to folks for the price of healthcare. Using healthcare to have people under “Duty to Warn” tied in to get your guns confiscated. And that’s how they do it. That’s what they do in Jersey. We’re going to talk about that as a GOFU at the end of the show.

Evan Nappen 18:56
“Restricting the Export of Firearms Abroad . . . ” Oh, yes. Please hammer our gun makers so they can’t sell their product. “Disrupting Firearms Trafficking Networks.” And what does that mean? It means creating endless bureaucracy to make the sale of firearms more difficult without accomplishing anything in terms of actual prevention of criminal violence. “Supporting State Efforts to Remove Firearms from Domestic Abusers.” Again, confiscate, confiscate, confiscate.

Evan Nappen 19:29
Remember, she’s the Gun Czar, folks. This is her baby here. Are you going to vote for this person who wants to eviscerate your gun rights? Who is proudly putting out a report now about all the steps they’ve taken to attack and oppress us? “Mobilizing AmeriCorps Sites to Help Make Our Communities Safer.” So, there’s more of that cronyism going on there. “Improving Job Opportunities for Communities Impacted by Gun Violence.” Again, more ways of filtering more money that we don’t have to aid these Democrat strongholds. They want to “Partner with city and states. . . ” Partner to do what? To pass more gun rights oppression. They want to help state legislators advance legislation to combat gun violence. Oh, do you mean to increase gun rights oppression? Yes.

Evan Nappen 20:36
What do they say? Here’s what they’re bragging about, folks. They’re taking credit here saying the following. “In June 2024 we welcomed state leaders back to celebrate their progress, . . .” Celebrate their progress in oppression. “. . . and discuss lessons learned for future legislation.” In other words, when the gun rights folks won, how we can beat them. How dare they want their rights. “Since December 2023, at least 31 states have introduced new legislation to address gun violence.” In other words, to oppress gun rights. “At least 17 states have enacted new legislation . . .” Including lock up your safety in California. Gun dealer accountability law in Washington, sue the gun dealers out of existence. A victim’s compensation law in Maryland. A ghost gun ban, privately made firearm ban in Vermont. Vermont. So-called pro Gun Vermont. In New Hampshire, they call Vermont, their upside down neighbors to the left, and with good reason. A background check expansion in Maine, which, by the way, imposed a waiting period in Maine that never existed. They got a waiting period in Maine. A

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right delayed is a right denied. A permit to purchase law in Delaware, and they’re bragging about it. This is the Biden-Harris Administration. Harris. Don’t fall for her lies. This is the real Komeela.

Evan Nappen 22:24
They also talk about “Mobilizing Health Systems and Health Care Providers.” Yeah, that “Duty to Warn.” Sick. Go through the mental, go through the medical, go through the providers of any type of medical. There is no more medical privacy, folks. If you talk, you get your guns taken, and that’s law now in Jersey. So, beware. “Mobilizing Artists and Influencers.” They never miss the propaganda effort of getting these progressive left celebrities to back their play to oppress gun rights. It’s even part of this. “Mobilizing Faith Leaders.” That’s right, faith leaders, so called. Those that want their First Amendment rights to freedom of religion, but don’t want our Second Amendment rights to defend ourselves and our family. “Mobilizing Educators.” Meaning propagandizing through the public schools about how terrible our gun rights are and how to brainwash to continue the oppression.

Evan Nappen 23:36
So, if you want to see this report, you can go online. (https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp- content/uploads/2024/09/Year-One-Report-Final.pdf) The link will be on the website for Gun Lawyer. You, too, can see this report if you had any question whatsoever about what we’ll be in for if Komeela wins in November.

Evan Nappen 23:57
Hey, folks, I have some important news about WeShoot. You know, my favorite range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They’re running a 15% off on all pre-loved guns, what you might call used guns. They’re having a great sale, 15% off. That sale is running from September 27 to October 6. So, go check out their great supply of used guns and get a bargain. And also really exciting, and this is great news, WeShoot is now offering New York City Non-Resident Concealed Carry Certification. So, if you want to get your New York Carry Permit, you can go to WeShoot and take the course there that you need to get your New York Carry Permit. That’s right. This is one of the new things available now, thanks to the Bruen case. Non-residents can get a New York City and New York State Carry Permit. Of course, the application, a mortgage application is simpler, but if you’re willing to go through the hoops and loops, you need this course. WeShoot offers it. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. That’s their website. weshootusa.com Make sure you catch that great sale on pre- loved guns.

Evan Nappen 25:41
I also, of course, want to shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It’s user friendly, and it’s made for you to understand New Jersey gun law. What seems impossible to understand, but I’ve tried to make it so that anybody can at least get a grip on the incredible matrix that New Jersey puts out of their insane gun laws. So that you can stay legal and not become a victim of gun laws. I hear from victims every day, and I don’t want you to become one. So, get a copy of my book, New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com, and you’ll see the book right there. Click on it. You can have it in a matter of days, factory fresh, delivered right to you. When you get the book, scan the QR code on the front cover. On the front cover is a QR that when you scan it, it sends you to my subscriber base. You can subscribe for free. That list stays private. You will get updates on the law

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changes, and you will have access to the archives for any past updates. So, your book stays current. Make sure you register today for free and get a copy of my book at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 27:14
On the back cover of my book, you will see a full page ad for the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights group for New Jersey. They are the ones defending our gun rights. They’re in federal court, as we speak. Fighting the Government, fighting the gun rights oppressors, and winning. So, this is something you want to be part of. Make sure you do your part by joining the Association. They have a full time paid lobbyist, keeping an eye on the shenanigans going on in Trenton. You want to know what’s going on. You are sent emails and alerts so that you can take action, simple action, that can make a huge difference in our fight for our gun rights. So, make sure you join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs at anjrpc.org. anjrpc.org

Evan Nappen 28:12
So, here’s something that is very interesting to me, and I think you’ll find it interesting. One of the great news sites that I look at every day, and I look at dozens of them regarding firearms. One of my favorites is AmmoLand. I love AmmoLand, and they had an article that I want to bring to your attention. This is posted and a major, major issue here being revealed. The title of the article is “China’s New Export Restriction Choke Hold on Critical U.S. Ammunition Components. Are you prepared?” (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/09/chinas-export-choke-hold-critical-u-s-ammunition-components- are-you-prepared/)

Evan Nappen 28:59
This article is very interesting because it revealed to me certain things that I had no clue about. Let me just read you a little snippet from the article, which you can find on AmmoLand. It says, the recent decision by China to halt the export of two critical components, nitrocellulose and antimony, has raised alarms in the U.S. ammunition manufacturing industry and among defense experts. This is really critical, folks, because we’re in the middle of wars all over the world since the senile sock puppet became president. You know, his philosophy is war through weakness, and that’s what we’ve been experiencing. So, with all these conflicts and tensions and we get to the brink of World War III, there’s huge demand, and what we’re seeing is inadequate ammunition supplies for both military and civilian markets.

Evan Nappen 30:05
Here’s a fact right out of this article that’s really amazing. China accounts for nearly half of global production and supplies, 63% of U.S. antimony imports. Antimony plays a vital role for making armor- piercing ammo, night vision goggles, precision optics and for hardening bullets. Okay, it’s important for all that. Nitrocellulose, which is a gun cotton, is absolutely essential for making propellant powder that’s used in our ammo. Without these core materials, we are extremely vulnerable in our ammunition supply. Just last August, China announced they’ll discontinue the export of these materials to the U.S. That is really scary and bad news. Remember, antimony is used in the hardening of lead bullets. It’s pretty basic for what we do, folks.

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Evan Nappen 31:28
And nitrocellulose is really critical, even though it’s apparently simple enough to make. But the plant in China exploded in May 2024 and that affected supply. There are only a few companies that are able to safely make the stuff you see. So, it’s going to have a huge impact on us. Many, many places are now reporting that there’s shortages on components and powder and that it’s dwindling. They can’t meet the demand. Let me just read you here a quote from John Farnham, who’s one of the industry experts. He’s giving an important warning about supply chains. Farnham says, “Right now, most components are reasonably available, but that will begin to change soon! Two weeks ago, the CCP precipitously announced that it was discontinuing the export to the USA of nitrocellulose and antimony. These two products are indispensable in the production of propellant powders and primers. There are other, lesser sources, but CCP has always been the main supplier. I predict significant commercial ammunition shortages, starting shortly!” So, folks, you have heard the message, and you better stock up. Stock up while you can. We’re going to be hitting another ammo drought. Another ammo drought when we need ammo more than ever. Keep that in mind.

Evan Nappen 33:16
I have a letter here, which I love, an Ask Evan letter, which is from Luis, regarding paying for my son’s gun purchase. Hi, Evan. I’ve been listening to your podcast since your first podcast in 2020. Wow. It’s been that long. It’s true. I have both your books, and I love them. Well, thank you. But one question I don’t see the answer is, can I pay for my son’s firearm purchase with my credit card? Thank you for all you do for firearm owners in the communist state of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 33:48
Okay, let me just say that it is not a good idea at all. Individuals have been prosecuted when you buy a gun for another person, and by using your credit card, it appears that you are making that purchase. Now it gets a little tricky. Because you are able to buy a gift that’s a bona fide gift, but you cannot buy for somebody else and then give them the gun, if it’s not a gift. Where they’re giving you the money or they’re reimbursing you, or that kind of thing. Because that ends up being a straw sale, and ATF has enforced this. There’s a famous case that went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where a guy bought a gun through his law enforcement discount for his father. He bought it and then sent it to the dealer. The dealer did a transfer to the father, and he was prosecuted for that being a straw sale. Even though it went through a dealer to the father. It didn’t matter. The Court upheld it, folks. It’s precarious. So, I would not advise paying for anyone else’s firearm because you don’t want to have that issue. I know it sounds ridiculous, but you know how it goes. These gun laws are ridiculous, and they’re enforced to ridiculous absurdities. I don’t want to see you become a GOFU, but that’s not today’s official GOFU.

Evan Nappen 35:28
Today’s official GOFU is a little trick, a sneaky trick, that I’ve been seeing done by the authorities, by the Government. If an individual is engaged in an act of self-defense, a legitimate act of self- defense, but you know how when you engage in self-defense, often you get criminally charged? I mean, that shouldn’t surprise anybody. What we’re seeing is, and I have actual cases on this. An individual who exercised self-defense, the government brings a red flag TERPO, you know, like the gun rights oppressors keep pushing that New Jersey has. They bring that TERPO (Temporary Extreme Risk

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Protection Order) first, and there’s no criminal charges yet. They use that as the excuse to speak to the person who they’re serving the TERPO. So, it becomes a tool of their investigation.

Evan Nappen 36:33
By speaking in the TERPO, where you think you can’t believe that this is being filed, and you’re making more and more statements, those statements end up being used in an escalation in your criminal charges to try to undercut your claim of self-defense. It’s a dirty trick, and it’s used in this manner. You need to beware of any time you have someone from the Government wanting to talk to you, whether it’s a TERPO, Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order or Duty to Warn where a health professional called the police on you because you happen to say that you were so mad at somebody you could kill them, or you had such a bad day, you could kill yourself. Even though it was hyperbole, and you never meant to do any of those. It doesn’t matter. It’s like making a bomb joke at the airport.

Evan Nappen 37:27
If you have any encounter with law enforcement where they want to talk to you about anything, you need to say, talk to my lawyer. You need to put that lawyer between you and the Government every time. It’s your Sixth Amendment right to counsel, folks. And the TERPPO is used as a tool, actual cases on this now, being used as a tool to escalate into criminal charges and to use as a vehicle to gain questions and interrogation tactics against law-abiding gun owners simply exercising self-defense. So, keep that in mind. Remember, gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 38:26
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo music New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E205_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 204-Kamala Harris Sucks Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer– Episode 204 TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun owner, guns, new jersey, search, consent, firearms, constitutional carry, law, gun rights, state, vote, oppressors, president trump, rights, carry, probable cause, folks, gun, second amendment rights, america

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, President Trump

Evan Nappen 00:19
Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, let’s discuss Komeela. That’s what I like to call her, Komeela. And Komeela is the old bait and switch, folks. You know, all those millions of people that voted for the senile sock puppet suddenly had their vote erased, basically eliminated, in a bait and switch. Komeela got installed, and now the big con is on. Essentially her campaign could be summarized as a mystery grab bag. You don’t know what’s in it, and she’s not going to really tell you what’s in it. She wants you to vote for the mystery grab bag.

Evan Nappen 01:15
However, it’s actually not that much of a mystery when you know what she has done in the past. What she’s trying to put forward now is, I’m a gun owner. I’m a gun owner. Oh, well, if someone’s a gun owner, that just means they’re fine. They’re great. They have to be one of us, right? And nothing could be further from the truth, because, frankly, I don’t know any gun rights oppressor who isn’t a gun owner. Being a gun owner doesn’t make you someone who wants to defend gun rights. Not at all. As a matter of fact, I know people, who are not gun owners, but vigorously defend gun rights. So, being a gun owner doesn’t mean a damn thing.

Evan Nappen 02:14
What does matter is what you’ve advocated for in the past, what you have wanted to do, and the statements that you’ve said in the past. Not what you’re trying to persuade the public about now, within weeks of an election where you’ve been put there without a single vote to try to fool America. And you know, the Democrats have done this before. You may recall the Senate race in New Jersey, where the torch, you know, Robert Torricelli had to get out of the race, and they anointed the corpse there, Frank Lautenberg. He wasn’t elected by anybody, right? Doesn’t matter. And guess what? He won, folks. Remember that — he won. So, they’re up to their old tricks.

Evan Nappen 03:20
Now we have Komeela trying to persuade us with smoke and mirrors. She’s a gun owner, and she’d shoot somebody, too. How nice. Except what’s the real Komeela? Well, I’ll tell you. Recently, a clip of her speaking when she was the lead, top prosecutor there, the district attorney. She made her views pretty clear, and remember, this is her acting as the prosecutor, as a district attorney, where their goal

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is to protect the Constitution, to protect our rights as well, find and enforce in terms of justice. Remember this is their job and what they’re supposed to do. You need to hear what she said when she was in the position of power when it came to our guns and our gun rights. Mr. Producer, please play the clip of Komeela.

04:40

It’s people who own guns who are quietly sitting on those guns, and those guns might end up being the weapons of the destruction of a community, because they get in in the hands of some kids who decides that they like what they see on television and they want to act that way. So, this is about just basically saying that we’re going to require responsible behaviors among everybody in the community, and just because you legally possess a gun in the sanctity of your locked home doesn’t mean that we’re not going to walk into that home and check to see if you’re being responsible and safe in the way you conduct your affair.

Evan Nappen 05:15
So, did you hear that? It’s not going to stop them from going into your home and checking your guns. Imagine that! No probable cause, no warrant. I mean, screw the Fourth Amendment. I mean, you might have a gun, so we just have a right to go check and if we don’t like what we see or what we find as we invade your privacy as a gun owner. Focused on gun right suppression, which remember, encompasses all our rights here. You just heard the real Komeela. You just heard this person, who wants to be our President and leader of the free world, talking about a policy, an opinion, and a view of our Second Amendment rights that, my friends, is pure gun rights oppression. That is how a gun rights oppressor speaks, and you better realize it.

Evan Nappen 06:39
This election is unbelievably critical. I know you hear all the time how important elections are, but this one has to win the prize. We are literally talking about our country as we know it, our rights as we know them, being destroyed by Komeela and the Democrats. Okay? That’s who’s out there to completely change what we know and love for the worst. Versus their opponent, President Trump, who will do the opposite! Who will empower us, protect our rights, protect our gun rights, protect all our other rights, change us into the powerhouse that America can be and make us again the absolute greatest nation on Earth. It’s a choice of becoming a Third World authoritarian country like Venezuela or any of these other banana republics. And look, they’re already doing the Banana Republic thing by law fair and their political opposition. Looking to censor free speech, just void out our Fourth Amendment rights, as you heard her talking about right there.

Evan Nappen 08:38
You’ve got to make sure, absolutely make sure, that you are registered to vote, and that not just you vote, but you get your friends and family registered to vote. As I talk to my audience, who are people that treasure all our rights, and particularly our Second Amendment rights, President Trump had something to say about that. What he had to say is true, and it’s sobering. But you need to hear it. We all need to hear what he said, what he said while he was on the Greg Gutfeld show. Mr. Producer, could you please play President Trump.

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President Trump 09:42
If the gun owners voted. I mean, the gun owners are just a massive proportion if they voted, but they vote, like at 16% or something. If the people, because they want to take your guns away. She wants to confiscate your guns. She wants to take them away. You know, she’s now trying to get out of it. So, she had policies that she’s now changed 14 policies about fracking. She was totally against, for 15 years, fracking. Now, all of a sudden, a short while ago, she came out in favor of fracking. Same thing with guns. She said, no, no, I don’t want to take your guns. I don’t want to. For 20 years, she’s wanted to take your guns. All of a sudden, a short while ago, she said, no, no, I don’t want to. One thing about a politician, they always revert back to where they were at the beginning.

Evan Nappen 10:23
So, there you have it. President Trump is telling the truth. She wants to take your guns. Komeela, good old Komeela, wants to take your guns. She’s lying about all her policies, or even simply not speaking about them. But did you hear what President Trump also said about gun owners? How only 16% or so actually vote, and if they did vote, it would make all the difference. He’s right. He’s absolutely right. So, do not be one of those folks that own guns, that cherish our rights, cherish our gun rights, who do not vote. Let’s turn that around. Make sure you’re registered to vote. The threat is real. Do not be turned into a non-entity by not voting. Get out the vote. Help others to get out the vote.

Evan Nappen 11:47
If we do that, we can win this, and it will be the shining times for America. We will have our gun rights so secured for generations because President Trump will appoint even more pro-gun Supreme Court justices. President Trump will do what’s right across the board for our country. For our energy, for immigration, for all those issues that are destroying us. We can make the difference. I don’t want to just be preachy here. But you heard what Komeela has to say from her own lips, and you heard what President Trump had to say. And guess what? Both are speaking the truth. Both are speaking the truth. Komeela is talking the truth about what she believes in that clip. President Trump just told you the truth, and that truth bothers me. It bothers me that we’re not out there in full force, exercising our power at the ballot box. Make sure you do that, folks.

Evan Nappen 13:11
One of the ways that you can stay informed is by belonging to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the gun rights premier organization in New Jersey. They are litigating on behalf of all of us in the federal courts as we speak, challenging the Carry Killer law, the modern sporting rifle ban and the standard capacity magazine ban. They are standing guard, watching over the legislature with a full time paid lobbyist. They’re making a difference. You need to be part of that organization. They will also help you to know the threats that these individuals that are gun rights oppressors are placing upon us. So, you want to join Association, and I strongly suggest you do. Go to anjrpc.org and become part of the solution when you join them.

Evan Nappen 14:24
If you want to stay on top of the gun laws that are changing, both for good and bad, as we continue our fight against the gun rights oppressors, make sure you get a copy of my book. It is, not surprisingly, called New Jersey Gun Law, and it is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120

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topics, all in a question and answer format, so that even you can understand New Jersey gun laws. To get your copy, go to EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book. Order it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. You’ll be glad you did. When you get the book, scan the front cover, and subscribe for free to my updates and the archives. The book will stay current for you. It’s used by police, lawyers, judges, and most importantly, 1000s of law-abiding citizens throughout New Jersey. And you’ll use it as well. I guarantee it. It is indispensable if you’re a gun owner in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 15:43
If you’re a gun owner in New Jersey, one of the things gun owners often do is look for a place to shoot. I have a great recommendation for you, and that is, WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, right there in Central Jersey, conveniently located off the Parkway, the famous Garden State Parkway. You know, we drive on a parkway, and we park on a driveway, but we have the Garden State for that. Sometimes I’m parked on the Garden State Parkway. Yeah, you know what traffic can be. But anyway, that is the range where I got certified, my brother got certified, and where my family shoots. It’s a great range. You’ll love the indoor range where they have tremendous trainers. They can get you fully equipped with all the guns and gear. Get your CCARE certificate so you can get your carry in Jersey. It’s great place. I know you’ll love it. Check out weshootusa.com. Beautiful website, beautiful photography. WeShootUSA.com.

Evan Nappen 17:03
Here is something that I really, really love to see. It’s a new law being proposed that’s pro-gun rights. Imagine that. Now, obviously this law is not going to pass right now. But if gun owners get off their ass and vote en masse, we could actually make this happen. Okay? And what I like about this law, this bill that’s been proposed, is that it is a new dawn in just the issue itself. And what issue am I talking about? Well, you know, folks, we’ve struggled for years to finally get “shall issue” carry. We struggled for years to even be able to have a carry permit issued as “shall issue” in New Jersey. Now, of course, the gun rights oppressors’ response was a hissy fit with the Carry Killer law. Yeah, you’ll get a permit, but we’ll try to make it useless by limiting where you can actually use it. But that strategy is falling to pieces as the Association is winning in their litigation. Nonetheless, we fought hard to get our ability to get a carry permit in New Jersey. The whole fight of legal carry. The history of it. Remember, I’ve practiced law, been an advocate for our rights, battled these things in the courts, defended law-abiding citizens, and I’ve seen this history in the making firsthand. When I first started practicing law, well over 35 years ago, the idea that we’d have a “shall issue” permit to carry in New Jersey was a pipe dream, but it’s now reality. We’re making it even better and easier, and it is on the correct trajectory.

Evan Nappen 19:35
Well, one of the things that was proposed through the years that I actively supported, and I bet many of you did, was what we call National Reciprocity. Now, National Reciprocity was the idea to have a law that mandated that every state recognize every other state’s license to carry or permit to carry a handgun in the similar way that driver’s licenses are recognized. Of course, this made sense, but the gun rights oppressors have stopped it politically every time. When it’s come close, the Democrats have invoked the filibuster rule to kill it by a vote or two so it could never pass. Once we defeat the gun rights oppressors, this new bill that’s been proposed actually makes National Reciprocity obsolete. That’s right. What kind of bill would make national reciprocity obsolete? Well, let me tell you what bill that is.

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This is a bill an idea, and just getting this idea out there is wonderful in and of itself. I give a lot of credit to Republican Representative Thomas Massie of Kentucky, who has proposed HR 9534 (National Constitutional Carry Act). (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/national-constitutional-carry-measure- introduced-in-congress/) What his bill is, are you ready for this, folks? National Constitutional Carry. Oh, my God, I love that. Don’t you love that? National Constitutional Carry.

Evan Nappen 21:33
Because, you know, now in the growth of the concealed carry liberty movement, not only do we have “shall issue” and the win in the Bruen decision, but we have more than half of the American states and over 70% of the geographic territory of America Constitutional Carry land. Meaning you don’t need a permission slip from the Government to carry with Constitutional Carry. If you’re legal to possess your gun, you can carry it. Period! No permission slip needed. Now the idea of National Constitutional Carry is as sweet as sweet gets. Let me tell you what Massey stated. He said in his introduction of the bill on X, he said, “No one should have to beg the government to exercise a constitutionally protected right anywhere in the country.” Amen. No one should have to do that. His legislation says, “Certain states and localities have enacted gun control laws that are not consistent with the text of the Second Amendment or this Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. The criminalization of peaceable, public firearms carry is repugnant to the original meaning of the Second Amendment.” Damn right.

Evan Nappen 23:24
This bill has two provisions. Let’s look at both provisions to get this idea out there, understood, because we can push this and push this. We can vote. We can change the political dynamics in this country, and we can get this passed. We could do this, folks. Provision number one says, “No State or political subdivision of a State may impose a criminal or civil penalty on, or otherwise indirectly dissuade the carrying of firearms (including by imposing a financial or other barrier to entry) in public by residents or nonresidents of that State who are citizens of the United States and otherwise eligible to possess firearms under State and Federal law.”

Evan Nappen 24:26
The second provision says, “Any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage of a State or a political subdivision of a State that criminalizes, penalizes, or otherwise indirectly dissuades the carrying of firearms (including by imposing a financial or other barrier to entry) in public by any resident or non-resident who is United States citizen and otherwise eligible to possess firearms under State and Federal law, shall have no force or effect.” Beautiful, just beautiful. This National Constitutional Carry law will finally make the Second Amendment, our Second Amendment rights, exactly what the Founding Fathers intended those rights to be. This is exciting. This idea has finally been put out there as a bill that not only makes sense and reflects the truth, but it is a bill that actually reflects what is already the majority of states in America and 70% of the land mass in America.

Evan Nappen 26:09
So, it is not farfetched. It is not a pipe dream. It is something that can be made a reality. It’s being made a reality, step by step, as each state becomes Constitutional carry, but this will force it on those states that still engage in gun rights oppression. It is something that we can fight for and gain our rights back. And I wanted you, my listeners, to know about it, because it shows you. It shows you that there’s hope

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and that there is an offensive that we can still take, and boy, we’re going to take it. I’ll tell you when it starts. It starts with this election. So, make a difference. Make sure you, your friends, and family are registered to vote, and you all actually vote, because these are the kind of things that we can get done. It’s critical.

Evan Nappen 27:30
Now I have some of my favorite, favorite letters that come in to Ask Evan. I really love getting your letters and answering your questions. I look forward to doing these letters, and I know you, my listeners, enjoy them as well. So, here is a letter, and actually, it is something that I’ve received in a couple formats here, believe it or not. What it says is, and this one is from Ed, it says on a recent podcast, you said to never consent to a search. How can we politely and respectfully do that? What should we say and how would we say it, so as not to be a jerk while maintaining our rights. Thanks for your work fighting for rights, and your podcast is a never miss for me!

Evan Nappen 28:40
Well, Ed, I appreciate it. So, your question is, how do we politely and respectfully not consent to a search? And it’s really very simple. All you have to say to the law enforcement officer who is requesting a consent where they have no probable cause whatsoever, but they just want to engage in a fishing expedition at your cost, and they’re asking you to consent to a search of your home or your car. All you have to say to be polite and respectful is, go fuck yourself. Just kidding about that, folks. I would not actually advise saying that. You might think it, but what you can say is simply, “I do not consent to a search.” Now, why would you say, “I do not consent to a search”? Are you being a jerk if you say, “I do not consent to a search”? And look, I totally understand Ed and I appreciate what you’re saying. We want to be respectful, because we are respectful. Law enforcement has a job to do, and we get that. I don’t want to have a society without law enforcement. I’m not in favor of defunding the police. I don’t like the bad guys and the criminals, but I also love our Constitutional rights. Especially when you’re in a state like New Jersey, where there’s an agenda from above that forces our great men and women of law enforcement to have to enforce this agenda.

Evan Nappen 30:38
You want to be clear that you do not consent to a search. Just say those very words but say them in a nice way. Don’t say them in an obnoxious, nasty, terrible way. You simply say, “I don’t consent to a search.” By saying you don’t consent to the search, you make it crystal clear and unmistakable that you don’t consent to the search. And why is that so important? Because if the search is going to take place anyway and you have plainly not consented by saying that you don’t consent, it’s going to be a question as to whether there was probable cause for the search. As to whether there was sufficient justification under the Fourth Amendment for the search.

Evan Nappen 31:33
And let me say something that seems to be a problem with people getting it through their heads. Not consenting to a search is not probable cause to do a search. Some people will tell me, well, if I don’t consent to the search, they’ll think I’m hiding something. So what? That doesn’t mean there’s probable cause for a search because you didn’t give up your Constitutional rights. It is your right, not their right. It’s your right. Don’t consent to giving up your rights. By not consenting, you actually protect your rights.

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And by being clear about not consenting, you protect your rights, and that’s what we must do. It’s not to be insulting to the officer who’s trying to do their job. It’s not insulting most of the time when an officer is a person who recognizes they have a job to do, but it’s actually sympathetic to the gun owner. If you refuse the search by saying, I don’t consent to the search, many times they’re secretly glad. I’m not kidding, secretly glad, okay? You didn’t consent to the search. Well, then they’re not going to search. Oh, well, guess they’re not searching. It isn’t necessarily anything that they’re going to be upset about.

Evan Nappen 33:12
Not necessarily, folks, not necessarily at all. Because let me tell you something, I get a lot of referrals of people that get in trouble, and they call me to represent them. And do you know that many, many of those referrals, and I appreciate it, come from the police officers themselves. How can that be? Why would an officer refer the person to me to defend them? Because they know that they have a job to do, but they are sympathetic to the gun owners. They know. Believe me, they’re not referring some guy that just, you know, robbed the bank. Oh, call Nappen, and they’ll get you off. No, they’re not sending them. They know who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. They know what laws suck and shouldn’t even be on the books. But they’re forced to do their job and which ones don’t. Same comes to this, my friends. Be polite. Be respectful. But stand on your rights and make it clear that you’re not consenting. Because if that search still takes place, then we’re going to seek the protection of the Fourth Amendment.

Evan Nappen 34:37
Now we come to one of the most favorite segments of the show, and that’s the GOFU. The Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do we talk about GOFUs? Because a GOFU is a very expensive lesson that gun owners have learned that may have cost them their gun rights, their freedom, etc., that you get to learn for free by listening to the show. Now today’s GOFU is based on a letter that I received. It’s not yet a GOFU that has impacted this person writing, but it sure has the potential. That’s what I want to warn you about. So, this is from Chris, and I appreciate the letter. Also, I have another one, very similar from Jim, believe it or not. Here’s what Chris writes, and I’ll read you what Jim writes regarding. Oh, I’m sorry. You know what? This is not a GOFU. Here’s the GOFU. The GOFU is from Jim.

Evan Nappen 35:56
Before I get to Jim, where I do have a second letter, by the way, that is from Jim. He did a follow up. I guess this letter from Chris. Let’s just go to this one, not the GOFU, though, this too could be a GOFU. Chris says, regarding New Jersey Permit to Carry – Duty to Disclose — possibility of cased firearm searches. Hello, Mr. Nappen. I’m a regular listener to your informative, entertaining Gun Lawyer podcast. Thank you for producing such valuable content. I am a New Jersey Permit to Carry holder, and I understand my Duty to Inform a law enforcement officer if stopped while actively carrying concealed firearm on my person, and also now, punitively, when I’m simply transporting case handguns at the range. My question pertains to maintaining my legal rights against a subsequent vehicle search after my mandatory disclosure. Other than requesting to inspect the firearms where they have a right to do if they’re investigating as they do, might I be transporting in my vehicle at the time of the stop, etc, yes, can I refuse the search inspection requests of my cased firearms? So, the question is a good one. It’s about Duty to Disclose and its ramifications. So, recognizing, as Chris does, that you have to disclose if you have that carry permit, even if you’re transporting the firearms to the range, and you

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have that carry permit, to what degree does it open up for more searching? And that is where, again, you do not consent to a further search. You have to disclose, and they do have the right to inspect the handgun if there’s that “investigation”. But further searching, you do not have to consent.

Evan Nappen 37:51
Now, let me just make this clear. Your consent and not giving it is one thing, but if you do not consent, you have no right to stop or resist the officer from searching. The fact is that you just want to be on record that you’re not consenting to further search, but if they insist, they’re going to search without probable cause. They’re going to conduct an illegal search. Well, that’s on them. It’s on them. They’ll have to explain to the judge, and maybe even in a civil rights lawsuit, why they thought that was okay when you clearly did not give your consent. But Duty to Disclose is currently the law, and we have to abide by that Duty to Disclose. Challenges are in the works, actual cases challenging it. I don’t know. I think it has one foot in the grave, but we’ll see. For now, I don’t want to see that GOFU on you for not disclosing. Still, after you disclose and do allow for inspection of your carry handgun, as the law requires, do not consent to further searches. Never resist in any way if the officer wants to continue searching without your consent.

Evan Nappen 39:19
Now to the big GOFU. The big GOFU is from Jim. Jim says, I love your podcast. I have your book and one you signed 25 years ago. Yes, you must have Nappen One, the book that started the legend there. Actually, they sell for a lot of money online. I don’t know why that is. Kind of funny, but I’m glad you have it. I’ve been at it a while. I’m glad you have the book and kept yourself out of trouble, hopefully using it. Jim says, my question is, I live with a woman, but we are unmarried. Well, I am not judging that, that’s for sure. Together, we are raising her three now adult offspring. Two of them live with us, and one has moved into an apartment he shares with a roommate. Moving from a big house, not the big house, I hope, from a big house to a small apartment, he has left many things behind, including . . ., can you guess? I bet I can guess. I have a New Jersey Firearms ID Card and a carry permit. Is he, the gun owner, or me, the house owner, at risk? Is anybody at risk? Thank you. Then this must be the same Jim who sent me again regarding, is this a GOFU? My son moved out to an apartment he shares with a roommate. As the apartment is small, he’s left behind many things, including his guns. Is he or I at risk? I love your work. I have your new book. I also have a 25 year old autographed version of your first edition. So, I actually have two letters from Jim, which shows me how much he wanted me to take his question.

Evan Nappen 41:04
Jim, I’m happy to. Because this is an important thing, and I run into this in the practice. If he has moved out and he’s no longer a resident of his old house and he’s actually changed his residency, the question becomes, how is he storing his guns at a place that is no longer his residence? Because residency is the exemption under 2C:39-6 for keeping guns, and he can’t store guns at somebody else’s residence. So, now the guns are being stored there, and it’s not exempt for him. The problem is, well, what is your risk if the guns are there? Your risk even arguably could be if the State tried to allege they were unlawfully transferred to you. Or if the guns are present there and not owned by you but claimed to be owned by him, can they somehow be combined in some conspiracy charge? Who knows how far the gun rights oppressors are willing to go?

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Evan Nappen 42:22
A likely, common scenario is if this person who has moved out, who left his guns in your house, has some kind of issue with the new roommate, where some domestic violence allegation has been made, let’s say, or some other problem like that. Then it comes out that his guns are at your house. Guess whose guns are getting seized? Not just his, but yours as well. Whereas if he stored his guns at his place, they would have no reason to come to your place to take your guns over any potential problem that the other person might have. I see these things happen all the time with innocent third parties having their guns seized, particularly in the abuse of the domestic violence law, where guns are seized instantly.

Evan Nappen 43:26
You know, it’s more difficult to get a ticket at Wawa to get a deli sandwich there, than to seize guns in New Jersey, you know? I mean, it’s ridiculous. So, you’re opening yourself up to added liability for losing your own guns. The nature of the possession of everybody there, with guns that don’t belong to you, guns that belong to him, but there’s no longer an exemption, can create a whole host of problems that we might have to sort through. Even on getting guns returned that belong to you or fighting criminal charges. So, keep it clean. Don’t have firearms that don’t belong to you and don’t belong to somebody who’s not living in that household in the house there. It’s simple. You don’t want to be a GOFU, and there’s plenty of potential there for that to happen. I appreciate all the questions, folks.

Evan Nappen 44:35
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 44:46
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E204_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 203-New Imprisonment Threats by Gun Rights Oppressors Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptSUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, gun, firearms, stickers, report, gun rights, jersey, requested, law, trenton, guns, camden, township, california, pretrial detention, bar, place, gulag, newark, switches

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:19
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I need to tell you about a very serious threat. A threat of imprisonment of gun owners. What I call the Gun Owner Gulag. Only, they’re looking to make it even worse. I’m going to tell you about this threat, and they’re concealing the threat as the way the gun rights suppressors often do. They promote one thing while pushing other things that are even more detrimental to our gun rights, and in this case, our personal liberty and freedom and not being imprisoned and held without bail to the extreme.

Evan Nappen 01:23
So, let me tell you what I’m talking about here. We have to be aware of this because it’s coming, folks, and this is step one. What I’m talking about is the report that just came out from the New Jersey State Commission of Investigation, and it is called “Illegal Firearms Use & Trends in New Jersey.” If you want to see the actual report, of course, there is a link to it in the transcript at the Gun Lawyer website. (https://www.nj.gov/sci/pdf/SCI%20Illegal%20Guns%20Final%20Report.pdf) Now there’s a little letter that’s attached to the report, and this letter is sent by Tiffany Williams Brewer, who’s the chair of the commission. This letter is being sent to Governor Phil Murphy. The letter states, “The State Commission of Investigation, pursuant to N.J.S.A. 52:9M-1 . . .”. It’s funny. It’s m1 isn’t it? “. . . to -20, herewith submits its final report of findings and recommendations stemming from an investigation into illegal firearms and gun violence trends in New Jersey.”

Evan Nappen 02:28
So, immediately, you know, it’s largely bullshit, because they’re using the word “gun violence”. Right? Got to talk about it as “gun violence”, not “criminal violence”. God forbid, the State Commission Investigation actually looks at criminal violence. No, no, that’s not what this is about. So, what does this report talk about? Well, this report is being, if it’s talked about at all, what’s being talked about is their concern about “ghost guns”. Woooo scary? Ghost guns. Which are, of course, privately-made firearms, which Americans have been doing since before the country was a country. But it’s always scary to tell the ghost stories. So, here we go. All right, bad enough, and use of 3-D printers to manufacture guns and gun parts. Well, we already have a ban on that in New Jersey anyway. And they’re focused on switches. They’re talking about Glock switches because Glock switches are so easy to make on a 3-D printer, and they convert Glocks very quickly to full auto.

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Evan Nappen 03:47
They can’t stop the frequency Kenneth here, because it’s out there, and anyone with a 3d printer can download how to make Glock switches. The Glock switch goes on the back of the Glock, very easy to put on. You click the switch and your full auto with your Glock. So, they’re very concerned about this, because so many Glocks are being recovered that are full auto switches. A lot of this stuff, even if you don’t three print it, is being sold by the chai coms into the U.S., but they don’t focus on that here, of course. Anyway, the whole report seems to be, you know, the primary push is all about that, and that’s bad enough. They mention that switches themselves in New Jersey are not prohibited by New Jersey law. So, in a way simple, there is no unlawful possession of a Glock switch law in Jersey. However, they’re federally prohibited. It’s like possessing a machine gun. So, you get a federal charge for the equivalent of possessing a machine gun if you have one of these things, whether New Jersey, independently, has a switch law or not. Regardless, it’s federally prohibited anyway. But again, they got to crank it up and create the fear. You know, “ghost guns”, and these are all over. Okay, so that’s their normal gun right suppression stuff they do. But here’s where the additional things in the report that aren’t being emphasized are truly scary, way scarier than ghost guns and Glock switches. In my opinion, what is way scarier is because of its impact on gun owners, law-abiding gun owners, in New Jersey and what they intend to do.

Evan Nappen 05:52
Let me fill you in. This report lists five or actually six points, if you will. The first point is, I’ll read them to you, but I’ll breeze through them real fast. “1. Although it is illegal in New Jersey to use a 3-D printer to manufacture guns and gun parts, state law fails to criminalize the possessing of printing plans to create gun parts, which could lead to further deterrence.” So, now they want to expand it to 3-D printing of even just having plans. They want to go at First Amendment rights to have even just information. They want to expand that already exists on the plans to make the weapons. You know, they want to expand that First Amendment violation for freedom of speech here. “2. State law does not prohibit the possession of switches that enable a semi-automatic weapon to be transformed into a machine gun, despite these devices being accessible to purchase for as little as $20 online.” “3. A small number of guns are driving a large share of the violence in numerous New Jersey municipalities, suggesting that current state law and prosecutorial strategies do not adequately address multi-shoot firearms.” That’s sure a lot of vague bullshit to jam more gun rights oppression up our butt, isn’t it?

Evan Nappen 07:20
And this is where it really gets bad, folks. “4. A disparity between the timing of pretrial detention decisions and the availability of National Integrated Ballistic Information Network (NIBIN) data analysis precludes valuable information from being considered in bail decisions.” Now, I’m going to get into detail about what that really means in a moment, and that combines with number five. “5. Current Public Safety Assessment (PSA) risk factor calculations fail to accurately reflect the dangerousness of firearms.” And then six. “6. Additional protocols may strengthen shooting intelligence collection.” (Page 3 of the report)

Evan Nappen 08:17
So, what does this really mean? Why is this so scary? Why is it such a threat? And why do we need to be very much aware of this? Because this report, I guarantee you, is going to be a basis for future

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legislation. In that legislation, they’re going to put restrictions and new laws in that are going to dramatically affect the ability to imprison gun owners in the Gulag for extended periods of time. Let me explain how. They claim in the body of this report that a small number of guns are driving a large share of violence in numerous municipalities, and that current strategies don’t address multi-shoot firearms. So, what the hell are they talking about there? They’re talking about different shooting events and things that happened in Paterson and Newark and Trenton, etc, and they said current community gun laws address the issue of the same guns being used again. Yeah, we’ve had that for a while.

Evan Nappen 09:33
But here’s where they’re sneaking it in, folks, and it’s going to jam it to law-abiding gun owners. “Similarly, the reckless or intentional public discharge of a weapon is not explicitly addressed by New Jersey’s criminal laws. Instead, public discharges of a weapon are now generally treated as criminal mischief – an offense equivalent to spraying graffiti on a wall or breaking someone’s window.” (Page 7 of the report) Oh. Discharge, reckless discharge. Reckless discharge. Hmm. Do you mean when somebody has an accidental discharge in Jersey, of which I have case after case after case, and the state decides to criminally charge them with recklessness? Do you mean those things? Yeah, you see.

Evan Nappen 10:36
Then, when you get deeper into it, what does it say in their recommendations part? It says, we need to criminalize firearm discharges. It states, “When crafting legislation to criminalize firearms discharges, lawmakers should consider laws . . .”, which is the signal, right? Whoop, whoop. Please make this law happen, and of course, they’re going to. “. . . enacted in other states that have criminalized the discharge of a weapon under specific conditions or if a shooting incident occurs near particular locations. For instance, Pennsylvania has a law against ‘the knowing, intentional, or reckless discharge of a weapon into an occupied structure.’ Florida law prohibits knowingly discharging a firearm in any public place, or on or over a public road, or from a vehicle located within 1,000 feet of any person. Those laws are akin to how New Jersey’s criminal statutes address drug-related activities that transpire in close proximity to schools.” (Page 11 of the report) Okay, so what are they going to do? They’re going to criminalize ADs (accidental discharges). And you know that New Jersey is going to make it so broad that any AD is going to get criminally charged. It’s going to happen. It’s going to come under reckless, and they’re going to make it a new way to throw you in jail. And it doesn’t end there.

Evan Nappen 12:16
Extending from that is their point 4. where they want extensions for pretrial detention hearings for gun offenders pending ballistic analysis. What does this mean, and how does it relate to what I just talked about and beyond? Let me explain. The recommendation is, “To enable judges to consider more complete information concerning a defendant’s possession of a firearm at the time of the offense when making pretrial decisions, the Legislature should amend the Criminal Justice Reform Act to permit those proceedings to occur beyond the current statutorily required timeline in cases where firearms analysis is pending.” (Page 11 of the report)

Evan Nappen 13:13
Here’s what this breaks down to, folks. The pretrial detention system, which we’ve discussed in the show before, is what I call the Gun Owner Gulag. In New Jersey, there’s no more cash bail. If you get

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arrested and charged on a gun offense as a warrant, which is the normal way they do things, you’re going to be held for up to 48 hours, guilty of nothing, until the prosecutor decides whether or not to seek pretrial detention. They have to make that decision in 48 hours. If they decide to seek it, which on gun cases they regularly do, then you can be held, and normally are, for up to five more days before a hearing where a judge is going to determine whether you’re going to get out or not. If the judge decides you’re not getting out, then you’re staying in until your trial or until your matter is pled out. Months and months or years. You’re in the Gulag, my friends. That means you’re virtually guaranteed seven days just on being arrested and charged.

Evan Nappen 14:21
What they want to do now is expand the time period while you’re sitting in jail, guilty of nothing, where there is no bail anymore, so they can extend out for who knows how long before you even get your hearing to get out. Oh, based on what? Based on their need to do analysis of the firearm. Analysis. Ballistic reports. How long are they going to wait? Months for ballistic reports? What type of analysis? Do they have to get their experts in? Reports on what? Boy, you can see that this is just so ripe for abuse. God forbid you have an accidental discharge. Oh, my God. Now you are charged with reckless. Now you’re in the Gulag. They have to do firearms analysis. You’re guilty of nothing and just held, imprisoned, by the gun rights oppressors. This is their plan. I’m giving you advance warning. Mark their words. That’s the reason for this report, folks.

Evan Nappen 15:33
Then they say they want to reassess again, the recommendation. “5. Reassess the Public Safety Assessment (PSA) Risk Factors to More Accurately Reflect the Dangerousness of Firearms.” (Page 12 of the report) What does that mean? I’ll tell you what it means. When you are subject to the Gulag and you’re subjected to that hearing to determine whether you’re going to be free pending your trial, a test is done. An analysis of two scales called PSAs – Public Safety Assessment. I do these all the time. There are two scales. One is, are you a flight risk? It’s on a scale of one to five, and the low numbers of what you want to see. The other test is criminality, danger, etc. It’s that second test that they abuse the hell out of already. Then the judge looks at those scores and puts that into their consideration of whether you’re going to get out or be held until your trial. Proven guilty of nothing. There is no more bail.

Evan Nappen 16:34
Well, now what they want to do is they want to make those factors include the “dangerousness of firearms” themselves. You know how dangerous those dreaded black rifles are, who only have one purpose, to kill hundreds of people. Right? And how dangerous a magazine that holds all those bullets, right? Let’s see what it says. “The Commission recommends that the Judiciary reassess the Public Safety Assessment risk factors, particularly to address cases in which firearms are discharged, but the conduct would not be currently categorized as a violent offense. The PSA’s violent offense list should include reckless and public discharge of a firearm, including but not limited to instances when public discharges are charged as criminal mischief or endangering another person offenses. . .”, which is so easy to be charged on any AD, “both of which are presently excluded from the violent offense categorization.”

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Evan Nappen 17:51
That’s right. They want to put it in to keep your ass in jail with no proof of guilt, no due process of any substance other than this pretrial detention hearing in front of a judge with this. No jury, no nothing. You’re stuck in jail. They also want to look at any time a gun is fired in public, shooting events, etc. So, they’re going to couch it all in that concern, folks. Then make their broad stroke law like they always do, and it’s going to jam up law-abiding citizen after law-abiding citizen. It’s already the Gulag, and this is their plan. You heard it here on Gun Lawyer first. You have got to stay vigilant.

Evan Nappen 18:49
The way you stay vigilant, number one, is to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs because they’re monitoring this stuff in Trenton. They have a full time paid lobbyist. When you’re a member, you’re going to get the email alerts. They’re going to give you the easy way to let your opposition get known, by pushing those buttons that send the emails that let your voice be heard. They’re there trying to stop and monitor these things. This is on the horizon. Very, very soon, we’re going to see it as a proposed law, and it’s going to be bad. They’re going to look to enhance the number of gun owners that are incarcerated. If you’re a gun owner, they view you as a criminal. They view you as a threat. This is what gun rights oppressors do. You need to join the state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC.org, and help fight for your rights. This is just one of hundreds of things that the gun rights oppressors try to do, but this has dramatic and real impact. I know how they play. I know what they do, and it is extremely dangerous to our liberty.

Evan Nappen 20:26
I also want to tell you another way to protect yourself and that’s to get my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. That book will help you not become a GOFU. That book will help guide you through the crazy matrix of New Jersey gun laws. When you get the book, you need to scan the front cover. Then you’ll get the updates. When they push this law, and hopefully not, but if they pass this law or any version thereof, I’ll be updating the book, and you’ll be right on it. You’ll get the alert and the new update, so you’ll know what’s happening. This way, you can guide your behavior accordingly. Take advantage of that. Also, if you want to buy the book, just go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book. Click it to buy a book. You’ll have it in days, a matter of days now.

Evan Nappen 21:30
Let me also mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor pistol range in Lakewood. It’s where I shoot, and it’s where I got my CCARE training. My brother, my son and my wife, too. On and on. It’s a great place. I know you’ll love it. They have excellent training, a phenomenal facility, so conveniently located right in Central Jersey. They have a great website, too. weshootusa.com Beautiful photography. What a great bunch of folks. I give them my highest recommendation. Make sure you check out WeShoot in Lakewood. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 22:12
So, let’s take a look now at some very interesting, quick little headlines. Then we’re going to get to something that’s really a lot of fun. I mean it. First of all, I want to mention that the U.S. has seized over 350 websites that were being used to import gun parts from China.

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(https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-seizes-over-350-websites-used-import-gun-parts-china-2024-09- 11/) That’s right. They finally, finally. They’ve been letting it go on with ads on Facebook, ads all over the place for suppressors and auto switches and everything. It’s been going on for years. They finally got off their ass and did something about it. Wow, I’m like, in shock, but you know. Yeah, the Chi-Com are selling all these things, and then what happens? They track it. Then they come to your door and arrest you. So, they were too busy using the Chinese to set up gun owners in America. They finally had to clamp down on it, because they couldn’t keep up. It was allowed to go on for so long. Basically too little too late, but they finally moved on it. How nice. Okay, good.

Evan Nappen 23:30
I have a letter here, a follow up from last week on an Ask Evan. This is from Art who says, regarding is a pharmacy drive-thru a prohibited place. Remember, we talked about dispensaries and all that. Now, if they’re dispensing medicine, it’s a dispensary, and that’s how we’re going to have that big battle. But Art says, Hey, Evan, I listen to your show every week. I appreciate that. Thank you, and I always learned many things. Thank you so much. You mentioned the pharmacy and CVS or Rite Aid being a prohibited place. What if you’re in your car at the drive thru? It’s an outside location accessible to the public, and assuming there’s not a “no firearm” sign at the entrance, you should be okay. But does the act of accepting your prescription at the window constitute being at a dispensary, since they’re in the act of dispensing your medication?

Evan Nappen 24:21
Frankly, the answer would be yes, because that’s dispensing. While you’re there, that’s part of the pharmacy. It’s the pharmacy’s property, and it’s being used as part of the dispensary to dispense you the medicine. Before you drive up to that window, you better not have your gun loaded concealed on your person, because it could be alleged that you’re in a sensitive place. So, your best bet is to park and then use the sensitive place exemption to unload and secure your firearm properly, as we’ve discussed in the past. Then go inside and do what you need to do. Because it is a potential problem, and you don’t want to be a GOFU. We have got to be extra careful, even though the state Association is litigating this as we speak. But for now, you have got to be really careful.

Evan Nappen 25:18
Okay, let me talk to you about something that I thought was really funny, and it just deserves to be discussed. I want to give you more details than you may have even heard, because I know you’ll appreciate it. So, you know, one of the things that the gun rights oppressors have done in Jersey through Murphy and Company, was to offer the no guns at the premises stickers. Free stickers to prohibit guns at premises. Now they didn’t offer a “guns welcome” sticker. No, they used your tax dollars basically there to promote the prohibition of firearms. They set it up where you could just go online and order these free stickers. Well, it’s hilarious. I’m going to read the names of the people and places that actually requested these due to the excellent work of John Petrolino, who is a wonderful writer. (johnpetrolino.com) You can catch him on Keep and Bear Arms and AmmoLand and other great gun rights publications. John is just a dynamo when it comes to revealing and gaining information. He did a Freedom of Information through New Jersey. He got the Government records request and actually got the data of the folks that requested these stickers. He got the complete list of all businesses that

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requested “gun free zone” decals through the program announced by Attorney General Platkin on March 21, 2024, and the list is detailed. It’s really great, and here you go.

Evan Nappen 27:10
Okay, number one, and we’re going to go through them. Southern Ocean County Chamber of Commerce in Ship Bottom. They requested it. PTA, Treasurer of Woodbury. Who knows if that’s real or not? LW, Inc of Fort Lee. Here’s a good one. Ready? You Are Infringing On My Constitutional Rights from Springfield. CGC Cafe in Metuchen. Artigiano in Pine Brook. Cenzino Ristorante in Oakland, New Jersey. Turdo Vineyards and Winery in Cape May.

Evan Nappen 27:10
So, we’re going to talk about the names on this list. Some are legitimate businesses that you may not ever want to give your business to because they are joining in gun rights oppression. Frankly, I don’t like to support those businesses. But then there is a slew of activists who decided to request these stickers and use hilarious names for their requesters. So, let’s take a look at who requested the obvious legitimate ones that you need to take note of, and the obvious hilarious ones, of which are even more than the legitimate ones.

Evan Nappen 28:01
Now, let me just say this. Some of these places that serve alcohol, which is currently a sensitive place, may have gotten these stickers only because the law already prohibits it until we overturn that. They may just be doing it because they don’t want customers to inadvertently be in a sensitive place. So, there may be a benefit of the doubt, maybe, to some of the bars and restaurants that are putting up the stickers because they serve alcohol and are sensitive places. Other places that requested the sticker are already sensitive places. So, you may want to inquire at these places why they got it and what their intention was.

Evan Nappen 29:29
Beacon 70 in Bricktown. Maypoint Hospitality in Cape May. By the way, this entire list will be listed and linked on the Gun Lawyer website. You can see it there for yourself. Butte County District Attorney’s office in California requested the New Jersey sticker. Okay, nice. DW Vineyards in Ringos. Adelaide Cellars in California. The Paper Mill Playhouse in Millburn. M Group in Alachula, Florida. The Sentinel of Gloucester County in Malaga. Trenton Thunder in Trenton. This is a good one. Ready? Ban 2A Meow, Ban 2A M in Kansas. Coyle & Morris LLP in Morris Plains. Heffs in Franklin Lakes. Bozos in Phoenix, Arizona. Uncle D’s Damn Fine Donuts in Arizona. Underwood Management Solutions in Gilbert, Arizona. Zed’s Beer-Bado Brewing in Marlton. Station House LLC in Manasquan. Dismal Harmony Distilling in Morristown. MGG in Michigan. The U.S. Army in Columbus, Georgia.

Evan Nappen 31:11
VaporCore in Denver. Here’s a good one coming up here, folks. I love this one. Ready? Seal Clubbing International from Clayton, North Carolina. Okay? Seal Clubbing International. Reflections Holistic Books & Novelties in Acworth, George. Leftwich Way? Leftwich Way. That’s pretty good. In Columbia, Maryland. Delilah Glass in California. Sticker Palace in North Augusta, South Carolina. They asked for a bunch of them at different times. Maybe they sell the stickers. I don’t know. Vandelay Industries in

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California. These aren’t even in New Jersey. Guns-R-Us in Alabama, wanted it. A Restaurant. It doesn’t say where in Vineland. Paper St. Soap Company in Arizona. Moms Demand Action in California. Borough of Woodland Park in Woodland Park. A1 Carpentry in Randolph. Bottone in Toms River. Jimmy Bomb in Haddon Township. Second Amendment Does Not Support Gun Restrictions in Sayreville. Good for them. Westin Mount Laurel in Mount Laurel. CLR MFR in Hackensack. Carlough Manufacturing in Upper Saddle River. Dominico Winery in Neptune City. Coop Corp in Hamilton. We The People in Wallington. A in Port Norris. Booterbeer Brewing Company in New Jersey. Mothers for safe funs in Kendall. Waste of money in Kendall. RR Real Estate in Bridgewater. RelianTax Advisory in Hazlet. Beach Haus Brewery in Belmar. Ventnor Coffee in Ventnor.

Evan Nappen 33:20
Flemington Jewish Community Center. That’s just great. Make sure you make that a “no gun zone”. It will surely stop any terrorist from wanting to attack the Jewish Community Center. Their signs just work like magic. Great idea. Flavors Soul Food Restaurant in Newark. Millers Ale House in Ocean. Flemington JCC, another great move there to put that sign up there in Flemington. BeConnected in Bayville. A whole bunch of Your Mom Incorporated from Michigan. Knoll Country Club in Boonton. Something called Home in Hackettstown. OT Imports in South Carolina. Fucking Your Mom LLC, San Diego, California. Gotta love it. We the People in Highland Lakes. CWC in Long Valley. Sticker Palace, again. Eurabizc Feriel LLC in Philly. TyrannicalGovernment Officials for Prison from Belmar, New Jersey. Township of West Orange. King Pin Bar & Restaurant in Egg Harbor Township. Pops Farmstand in Chesterfield, Mass. Psych Detective Agency in Framingham, Mass. Gun Free Zone, Franklin, Tennessee. Club Krafty Tutoring Services, Philadelphia. Bar Restaurant / 45th pub in Edgewater Park, New Jersey. Ohioans for Gun Sense, of course, Ohio. NRA in Portland, Texas. GMMI in Battle Ground, Washington. Uncle Joe’s Crackhouse, Bluffton, South Carolina. Gotta love those boys. Uncle Joe’s Crackhouse. Yep, I guess that’s what they’re calling that they’re in DC these days.

Evan Nappen 35:32
The Seed Shop, Dale, Indiana. Herrera Gun Store, Bluffton, South Carolina. Springfield Nuclear Power Plant, Goose Creek, South Carolina. WashU, Concord, Mass. Dilligaf. Now you know what D, I, L, L, I, G, A, F, stands for? Of course, that’s a great one. Dilligaf from Oregon. Ephemeral, Inc, Berlin, California. East Coast Rebel Militia in Delaware. Taco John’s in Texas. Chez Moi in Woodstock, Georgia. Pete’s Auto Repair in Ferndale, Washington. Ventura GLAD in Thousand Oaks, California. Jersey Girl Brewing in Hackettstown. Camden Thomas in Waverly, Iowa. The FBI in Newark, two requests there. LLC, llc, Sterling, Virginia. Flambeau Inc in Wisconsin. J&R Supply in Hudson, Florida. Aft in Trenton, New Jersey. Cycles and more from Tennessee. Cyber Security from Freedom, Indiana. Windridge and FGC both of them from Texas. Wade Enterprises from Florida. Working on a name from California, about seven or eight of them. Sofa King from California. Sofa King. I get it. Bill Bob’s Candle Shop, Opelika, Alabama. FURIGHTS, Washington, District of Columbia. Loras College, Iowa. NRA in Dayton, Ohio. Camilla’s Pet Disposal in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Right’s Coffee & Tea, Cherry Hill, New Jersey. AFT, Phoenix, Arizona. Jip llc, Springfield, Virginia. Jager Inc, Gurley, Alabama. Construction Subcontractor, Lacy, Washington. Can you believe how many are just out-of-staters? Must like grabbing stickers. I love it.

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Evan Nappen 38:10
Huddy’s Inn, Colts Neck. Res Natura, Newark, New Jersey. Your Mom Incorporated, about 1,2,3,4,5,6, a whole bunch of them. Oh, here’s about eight of these. Ready? Dick Handlers, and that’s from Tyler, Texas. Dick Handlers requested a whole bunch of stickers. So did Peeon2nd, Pee on the second, and that’s from Tyler, Texas. And then Dick Handlers, again, about a dozen of them from Tyler. Tyler must have done now, no 20 of them there. Congratulations to Tyler with Dick Handlers and Peeon2nd for getting a whole bunch of free stickers from Jersey. TownSquare Diner, Wharton, New Jersey. Rusty Rail Brewing, Mifflinburg, PA. Beachside Condos, Hampton, New Hampshire. ATF, Washington, New Jeersey. No, Washington, DC. Sorry, that’s an easy one to mix up. Anti-gun store, Oregon. Walmart, Newcastle, Pennsylvania. Tyler’s at it again, folks. Unconstitutional Tyrants, a whole bunch of them. Freedom Squashers, another one from Tyler. Then a whole bunch of Dick Handlers, maybe a dozen, then a whole other UnconstitutionalBS from Tyler. Then a whole bunch more Dick Handlers from Tyler. Oh, he’s taking up an entire page on the spreadsheet, good for Tyler. Then he takes up a whole other page with GobacktoDC, a whole bunch of them and then Unconstitutional Tyrants. Another entire page of them, dozens and dozens from Tyler. He was having a grand old time. Then a whole other page from Tyler of Dick Handlers and Come and Take It, come and take it. And Evil Ryrants and P.O.S. Tyrants. We know what P.O.S. means.

Evan Nappen 40:18
Then the American Legion in Sayreville. Frederick Dempsey Post 266 of the American Legion in Neptune. Southwood Bar & Grill, West Deptford. Squan Tavern, Manasquan. 1911 Smokehouse Group, Trenton. Plymouth Group, Bronx, New York. New Jersey License Beverage Association, Trenton. Gateway Bar & Liquors in Atlantic Highlands. SelfCorp in North Carolina. BATFE in New Jersey. Farmers & Bankers Brewing in Woodstown, New Jersey. Then, here we are. Tyler’s at it again, folks. Remember Ruby Ridge, five of them. Then Leave the US, three of them, and then an uncountable number of Dick Handlers, taking up a whole other page. Now we get to Bogeys Sport Bar in Clifton. Squan Tavern, Manasquan. Millstone Wine and liquor in Franklin Park. James Glynn Inc, Jersey City. Manchester Township in Manchester. West Patterson Liquor, Woodland Park. Plumstead Township of New Egypt. Cherry Hill Brewing in Cherry Hill. Just Street Deli in Vermont. Jimmy Geez north and Jimmy Geez, that’s both. One’s in Oak Ridge, and one’s in Haledon. Cherry Hill Women’s Center. And that’s in Cherry Hill, of course. Wolfe & Kron Books in Asbury Park. I’m glad they like the First Amendment there, but I guess they don’t like the Second Amendment there.

Evan Nappen 42:03
Cabeza de la Vaca, Big Spring, Texas. Neher Data Systems, Tinton Falls. Safe Care Ambulance, Forked River. Middlesex Elks in Middlesex. Forked River Fire Department. Club Eclipse, Newark. First Baptist Church, Morrestown. Yet, as you know, houses of worship are not a sensitive place. Jerzee’s in Asbury. Maize Westfield in Florham Park. McLaughlin Stauffer & Shaklee PC in Wall. Wingcraft LLC in Atlantic City. Bobby Corp, Hamilton/ Cherry’s zlounge in Jersey City. Old Town Pub, Bordentown. Domes Meus, that’s in Ohio. I don’t know what it is. Fox House Brewing in Bordentown. Anglesea Aleworks, Wildwood. Tomasella Winery, Hammonton. Township of Woodbridge, Woodbridge Township. American Legion Post 294, Pemberton. American Legion Department of New Jersey, Waretown. Greenbriar Oceanaire Community, Waretown. American Legion Post 209, Scotch Plains.

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American Legion Post 450, Pequannock. American Legion Post 470 Kenilworth. Mystic Island American Legion Post 493, Little Egg Harbor. American Legion Post 86 in Newton.

Evan Nappen 43:45
Some clubs in Camden and Sicklerville. It just says Clu. ECLC Inc in Newark. Horseshoe Tavern, Morristown. JJ’s bar and Package Goods, Sandyston. Brookdale Community College, Tinton Falls. Cape May Brewery in Rio Grande. Ortley Beach Moose Lodge 399 in Seaside Heights. Vs services in Plainsboro. LK Group in Manville. LisasTipsyCorner in Paterson. Sontort Food Services dba Brunello Trat in Flemington. Tir na nOg in Trenton. Brotherhood of United Firefighters in Camden. BPC Restaurant Management, Garwood. Paulsboro Sportsmen’s Association requested three in Paulsboro, New Jersey, for whatever reason. Harmony Township, Phillipsburg. Blue Sunday Bar & Grill, Linden. Bella Vista Country Club in Marlboro. By the way, the Blue Sunday is in Linden. Mahwah Wine and Liquors, Mahwau. East Hanover Police in East Hanover. Cenzino Restaurant in Oakland Borough, New Jersey. Tankard Pub, Burlington. 412 Lounge & Latin Bar in New Jersey. Blackwood VFW Post 7927, Blackwood. Freddie’s Dugout in Paterson. Patten Point Yacht Club, Long Branch. Township of Irvington. Striped Lion Distilling in Woodbury. Bowling Alley in Egg Harbor Township. Mauricetown Gun Club in Millville. Union Plaza, Haslet. Club Eclipse, Newark. The Asbury Hotel in Asbury Park. Vizzini Corp in Lyndhurst. OT imports in South Carolina. FFGO in Illinois. I hate liberals.com, Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. Subway, Paramus, New Jersey. US Hazards, Berea, Ohio. Brazos Valley Service Rifle Association in Lyons, Texas. Golden Eagle Program Dallas, Texas.

Evan Nappen 46:20
Hammonton Discount Liquor in Hammonton, New Jersey. Wilshire Caterers in West Orange, New Jersey. Pete & Elda’s Bar in Neptune City. Triangle Liquors in Camden. Camden Arts Yard, Voorhees. Sophie’s II Bar, Camden. Pride of Camden in Camden. Eddie’s 2 Liquor Store. Eddie’s Liquor Store in Collins, with the other one is in Camden. Tom Liquor Store in Camden. Haddon Liquor Store, Pennsauken. Various liquor stores in Camden. Keep in mind that liquor stores are not a sensitive place because it’s not consumed there, unless they have bars there, too. Bars and restaurants with no names throughout Camden and Pennsauken. Liquor stores and nightclubs with no names.

Evan Nappen 47:20
There you have it. The complete list of those who requested “Gun Free Zone” stickers. Many, many, many are from out of state. Many may have been simply done because of opposition research by gun clubs. Of course, without a doubt, our hero is Tyler, Texas. They had a great deal of fun and let their beliefs be known in a way that we can all appreciate. So, I thought you’d enjoy that. Any of the places that you may have recognized there that are legitimately trying to oppress our gun rights, I wouldn’t give my business to them.

Evan Nappen 48:16
Now, of course, we have the famous and most popular segment of the show, which is the GOFU. Today’s GOFU is, don’t put your guns or store your guns in ovens. Yes, I’m not kidding. This is from an article by Tom Knighton. (https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2024/09/10/this-is-why-you-shouldnt- store-guns-in-ovens-n1226171) He picked up on this report, and I appreciate his writing as well. And what he said is police in Virginia have issued a warning for people not to store guns or anything else

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inside their ovens after a frightening incident, Chesterfield Police said last week. Firefighters responded to a home after the owner’s oven exploded. An investigation revealed that someone turned on the oven with a handgun inside. The weapon heated up and five rounds went off.

Evan Nappen 49:14
Okay, folks, get a gun safe. Secure it properly. Do not keep your guns in the oven. Do you have to write this one down? I hope not. There are many important things that do work well in an oven, like food and baked goods and other things, but guns, especially loaded, guns, do not belong in there. I don’t want to test how much heat a Glock can take. You just have a melted mess anyway, at least of the polymer parts. Plus, if it’s loaded, the round is contained in the barrels or cylinders, and they will present a danger if they cook off, as opposed to rounds that are loosely thrown in a fire where they’re not contained. Contrary to what you may have seen in the movie, those actually do not pose any substantial danger. The round has to be in a barrel or chamber for the pressure to actually have effect.

Evan Nappen 50:26
You don’t have to take my word for it. You can read about Hatcher’s famous book. In Hatcher’s notebook, the army and military did experiments on that very thing, ammo in fires, and they made these tests and studies and determined that. But if you put your gun in an oven and it’s loaded and the rounds cook off, you’ve got problems. And of course, you’ll be charged, because that would count as an accidental discharge. Then, of course, you’ll face the Gulag. If the gun rights oppressors here have their way, and even if they don’t, you’ll still face serious problems anyway, even if you’re not held without bail until your trial in the DPRNJ.

Evan Nappen 51:15
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 51:24
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E203_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 202- Was This Another Stephen King Killing Spree? Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 202SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dispensary, new jersey, gun rights, rage, carry, gun, pharmacy, guns, knives, law, firearm, copycat, issued, give, state, pistol, call, lakewood, place, radical ideology

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you’ve probably been seeing in the news the latest what they like to call “school shooting”. It’s always amazing how the timing of these things go. You know, we can speculate all day long about why that is, and I’m not going to do that here. But I do want to point out that you can look at the history of school shootings, and you might be surprised to see where the idea kind of originally took root and became a fixture, if you will, in America. For that, you need to only go to Stephen King. That’s right. Stephen King wrote a novel called Rage, which was written under a pseudonym that he used, Richard Bachman, but it is Stephen King. This book was published in 1977 and then it was put into another book of his collected works in 1985 known as the Bachmann Books. And what that novel described was a school shooting, and this novel has been associated with actual school shootings. It’s pretty much documented. Then from the actual school shootings, where you can document his book Rage, are all the copycats that we’re still experiencing to this day. You can look and see that this epidemic, so-called, at least that’s what the media likes to play it as, goes back to Stephen King and the novel Rage.

Evan Nappen 02:21
In this novel, a high school senior has grievances, whatever, and ends up killing a teacher and all kinds of other things happen, even a hostage situation. So, many times in the school shootings, you also end up seeing the hostage issues take place. All this, you know, can find roots here, so much so that even Wiki, for that matter, admits that the plot of Rage vaguely resembles actual high school shootings and incidents of hostage taking. It’s true that King finally said, quit printing it and took it out of print. He took it out because he realized, I guess, the issues that have come from it. You know, he’s anti-gun. He is a gun rights oppressor, you know, and all that. He’s disavowed it and what have you, butut still, it’s out there. It’s out there.

Evan Nappen 03:38
Here’s a little list of some of its impact, by the way. So, this one guy, Jeffrey Lyne Cox, a senior at San Gabriel High School in California took a semi-automatic rifle to school in April of 1988. Just three years after the Bachmann Book anthology got republished. Cox held a humanities class of 60 students hostage, and it went on and on. A friend of Cox said that he was inspired by the novel Rage. Then, in 1989, Dustin Pierce, a senior at Jackson County High School in McGee, Kentucky, armed himself with

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a shotgun and two handguns. He took a history classroom hostage with a nine hour standoff. And guess what the police found among his possessions in his bedroom? You guessed it. A copy of Rage.

Evan Nappen 04:48
Then on September 11, 1991, Ryan Harris went into a math class (in Stevens High School, Rapid City, South Dakota) with a sawed-off shotgun and ordered the teacher to leave. Harris had been inspired by, guess what? Rage. He ordered pizza and cigarettes, which were delivered, and he wanted a million dollars. He fired a total of 10 shots. Then in 1993, Scott Pennington, a student at East Carter High School in Grayson, Kentucky, took a .38 revolver owned by his father and fatally shot his English teacher. He then shot and killed the school’s custodian and held the class hostage. And guess what? He had written an essay on Rage, and he was upset that the teacher gave him a C grade on his essay on Rage. In 1997, Michael Carneal shot eight fellow students, three of them fatally at a prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. And guess what he had in his locker? A copy of Rage.

Evan Nappen 05:55
They even talk about another school shooting where they compared it to Rage. Apparently the shooter, Barry Loukaitis, shocked his classmates said that he said, “This sure beats algebra, doesn’t it?” They said that was a line erroneously reported from Rage. They say that no such line appears, except there is a line in Rage that says, “this sure beats panty raids.” Oh, this sure beats algebra versus this sure beats panty raids, which is an actual line from the book Rage. But no, no , no. Rage wasn’t responsible there. No, not at all. I mean, look at this. Then what do you see from this? You see all the media coverage, all the hype. We get copycat after copycat after copycat. And what happens? Oh, well, the antis never miss a chance to do a blood dance to try to take away our gun rights and oppress our gun rights. They immediately call for the non-sequitur of gun rights oppression, which has nothing to do with it. I mean, they may as well when they call for their gun rights oppression, they talk about, oh, we need to stop “gun violence”, right? It’s always “gun violence”, and we need common sense gun safety laws.

Evan Nappen 07:30
Oh, really? Well, would you be in favor of ending book violence, book violence? Maybe we need common sense book safety laws. Do you think that’s good? I mean that’s the First Amendment. I don’t really want to see the First Amendment and those rights oppressed, but they have no problem when it comes to the Second Amendment and trying to blame the object. Yet here we have what is pretty much a documented history of the mayhem caused by King’s writings. Hey, I guess it’s the society we live in. We need to have free flow of ideas, just like we need to have guns. There are people out there that do bad things. But why does it seem so difficult to blame the person all the time? If you want to go around blaming guns, maybe I want to go around blaming books that can be documented to the inspiration for what we see going on.

Evan Nappen 08:41
Hey, here’s a little follow up on why it’s nice to live in America, my friends. Because you see, we have the Second Amendment that protects our rights. Recently, as you may recall, we discussed on one of the recent shows about the Massachusetts Supreme Court finding that switchblades, what we call automatic knives, are protected arms under the Second Amendment and invalidated Massachusetts

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ban on switchblades. Well, that is very good for us, and we’ve made great headway in terms of fighting knife laws.

Evan Nappen 09:24
However, just recently, on August 23, 2024, in Germany, guess what? There was a mass knife stabbing. In this mass knife stabbing, three people were stabbed to death and eight others wounded, ironically, at a festival in Solingen, Germany. Now, what’s ironic about it, if you know knives, Solingen is actually one of the capitals. One of the top, highly regarded places for making fine steel and cutlery. In a report from the Associated Press, they quoted saying, “federal prosecutors said that [the suspect] shared the radical ideology of the Islamic State extremist group — and was acting on those beliefs when he stabbed his victims repeatedly from behind in the head and upper body.” It’s also reported, by the way, that this person, under German law, shouldn’t even have been in the country. Apparently this news source, Deutsche Welle, said, “Authorities had planned to deport this suspected attacker to Bulgaria last year, but this did not take place because the man had not been seen at his refugee accommodation when officials tried to do so.” (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20240903/never-enough- german-government-pushes-knife-control-in-wake-of-terror-attack)

Evan Nappen 10:59
So, here you have this radical ideology and someone who shouldn’t be in the country, but what does Germany’s Social Democratic Party Chancellor, Olaf Scholz, say? He said the Government would be pursuing new knife controls. Of course, we have got to blame the knives. Well, you know, can’t blame guns there. They weren’t used. So, we’ve got to blame knives. It’s obviously the knife’s fault. It’s not this radical ideology and someone who shouldn’t be in the country being there. It’s knives. So, the Chancellor said, we’re now going to tighten up weapons regulations, in particular with the regard to the use of knives. And what are the knife laws that they’re going to do now? What are they doing? Well, according to the Deutsche Welle publication, the Interior Minister, Nancy Faeser, called for the law to be changed so that only blades of six centimeters, which in inches is 2.36 inches, would be allowed to be carried in public, rather than the current 12 centimeters, which is under five inches. An exception would be made for household knives in their original packaging. How nice, how nice. And switchblades would be banned all together. Like that had anything to do with that incident. But there they go. Let’s find some inanimate object to blame, to deflect. That’s Germany doing that.

Evan Nappen 12:50
This is what we have to be vigilant about here in America. Thankfully, the Second Amendment and our knife liberty movement is being successful because the focus at the moment, by the Second Amendment rights oppressors, is on guns. And so, this is a great opportunity, and we’re making tremendous headway. Next, of course, is removal of the FSA, the Federal Switchblade Act so we’d have no national life knife law whatsoever. There’s only a handful of states that even ban automatic knives, very few, and they’re commonly owned, as the Massachusetts Supreme Court noted. A lot of that common ownership is because of the efforts we’ve made in getting rid of knife laws. But remember, what happens there in Europe can happen here. The UK’s pulled this same stunt. You know, we just got to give the people something. So, what do we give them? Since we can’t address the real issues. Oh, a knife ban. Knife ban. How nice. It’s unbelievable.

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Evan Nappen 14:10
We constantly are struggling with these non sequitur type anti-rights oppression, and we’re constantly fighting. One of the best ways to fight it is with knowledge. When it comes to knowledge, especially in the DPRNJ, which is the Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey, you need to make sure that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights advocate group in New Jersey. They’re an umbrella organization of the gun clubs, but there are individual memberships. You need to be a member. It’s very reasonable to join. By being a member, you will get the email updates and a fantastic, the best, printed newsletter on gun rights in New Jersey. You will be helping to fight in the courts as they fight and litigate on the most pressing issues of gun rights oppression in New Jersey. They are the group. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. anjrpc.org. Join today and be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 15:38
The other important thing for knowledge is getting my book, which I will shamelessly promote. It’s called New Jersey Gun Law, and it is the Bible of Jersey gun law. I know that many of my listeners have copies, and they are smart enough to never lend them, because you’ll never get it back if you do. This book is over 500 pages. It’s 120 topics, and it’s all question and answer. It will be your roadmap to understanding New Jersey’s insane matrix of gun rights oppression and traps that are laid for the unsuspecting so that you don’t become the next GOFU. When you get the book, which you can get at my website, EvanNappen.com, when you go there and get the book, make sure you scan the front cover, that QR code, and get in my free subscriber database, which goes nowhere. It stays private. I don’t sell it. I don’t release it. But you will get updates to keep the book current, and you’ll have free, free access to the archives for any past updates and information. The updates themselves are free. You can’t beat it. It’s the indispensable tool for a New Jersey gun owner.

Evan Nappen 16:57
In addition to knowledge and protecting our rights, you need to have a place to shoot. So, let me give you my highest recommendation, which is WeShoot, which is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. You can go to their website, which is weshootusa.com. They have beautiful photography. You will enjoy their website, and you will see they offer everything you need. They are a state of the art place to shoot, which is a great resource. They’re conveniently located in Lakewood, New Jersey, right off the Parkway. They offer courses and training. It’s where I got my CCARE certificate to get my carry. It’s where my son got his, my brother got his, and on and on. You can get yours there, too. They have a great shop. They sell all the accouterments and equipment that you would want to enjoy the world of shooting and be able to defend yourself and your loved ones. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. The premier range is right in Central Jersey in Lakewood.

Evan Nappen 18:24
So, I was thinking about a little idea that I had, and I want to put it out the first time on Gun Lawyer. We are coming up to the election, and as if I need to say this, but I’m going to say it, you better be registered to vote and make sure you vote. Our future more than ever, and not just on guns, folks, but on every other aspect of our life, our country, our sovereignty, our wealth, our liberties. Everything is at stake in this election, and you need to vote. And to vote, you need to be registered. I believe you have until October 15 to register in New Jersey. (https://nj.gov/state/elections/voter-registration.shtml) So,

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time is time is a ticking. If you’re not registered to vote, make sure you register, and then make your vote. Now, You know, President Trump actually has a shot at winning New Jersey. If those that love liberty come out and vote, he will win New Jersey. Make sure you’re registered.

Evan Nappen 19:39
Now, one of the things that struck me is that we have this law that was put in, a Federal law, known as the National Voter Registration Act of 1993. (https://www.justice.gov/crt/national-voter-registration-act- 1993-nvra) It was signed by good old Bill Clinton. It’s also known as the motor voter act or the motor voter law. The NVRA or motor voter law attempts to simplify voter registration by having folks who apply for or renew a driver’s license or if they apply for public assistance, register to vote. So, people getting public assistance, people getting driver’s license, to be registered to vote. The law requires states to register applicants and to use a Federal voter registration form and then prohibits states from removing registered voters unless the voter rolls contain certain criteria. So, here we have this motor voter act that, in effect, is a voter registration drive. Literally, drive through voter registration via driver’s licenses and public assistance.

Evan Nappen 21:10
Well, I have a law that I’m proposing.. Now, I’m not a legislator, but I hope a legislator picks up on this. As the current law is called the “Motor Voter Act”, ours should be called the “Reloader Voter Act”. Under the “Reloader Voter Act”, when you apply for a firearm permit or license, you are registered to vote in the same way as when you apply for a driver’s license. Imagine that. When you go to purchase a firearm, there’s that federal gun form that you have got to go through. Well, guess what? We’re also going to do voter registration of everybody who buys a gun or gets a license for a gun. Now that is something that I think Republicans could get behind – the Reloader Voter Act. I haven’t got the details. I don’t write legislation. I think this is an idea worth considering, and I bet you do, too.

Evan Nappen 22:27
So, we get my favorite thing, which is the Ask Evan letters. I’ve got some really good letters. And of course, we’re not going to forget the GOFU. This is from Kenneth. Kenneth writes, regarding dispensary. You made a comment on a recent podcast that a pharmacy was a sensitive area based on the fact that the Carry Killer Law includes “dispensary” in the definition. The term “pharmacy” is nowhere to be found in 4769. In addition, NJAC 13:39, which regulates pharmacists, pharmacies and the dispensing of prescription drugs, never uses the term “dispensary”. The only law or regulation utilizing the term is in relation to cannabis. My final argument that carry would not be banned is that a “health care facility” is defined in 44:5-2a. as a facility for “diagnosis or treatment of human disease, pain, injury, deformity or physical condition”. A pharmacy does not diagnose or treat per those relevant definitions. Based on all this, I’m curious how you came to your conclusion. I hope you address it in an upcoming podcast.

Evan Nappen 24:00
Kenneth, I’m happy to address it, and I’m glad that you raise it. I’m glad that you’re thinking about these things. It is very good and appreciated. So, where is this coming from? And why would I say this? I’ll tell you why. Because we have to go to the Carry Killer bill, and that is what we just mentioned as a bill number, but it’s been passed. So, it actually has a law number, a statutory citation, and it’s under N.J.S.

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2C:58-4.6.58:4.6. In that statute, we find the “sensitive places”, the laundry list of places that the Government in New Jersey enacted in their hissy fit after the passage of Bruen to try to make carry permits that have to be issued useless. And, of course, this is one of the key areas that the state Association, ANJRPC, is fighting. They have made great progress in that fight, and it’s ongoing.

Evan Nappen 25:06
So, where does the “no pharmacy” idea come from? Well, you will find that under Number 21. Now let me read you the sensitive place under 21. It includes all the following: a “health care facility, including but not limited to a general hospital, special hospital, psychiatric hospital, public health center, diagnostic center, treatment center, rehabilitation center, extended care facility, skilled nursing home, nursing home. I can’t believe they put both. I guess that’s the unskilled nursing home or something, but whatever. Intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital, chronic disease hospital, maternity hospital, outpatient clinic, dispensary, assisted living center, home health care agency, residential treatment facility, residential health care facility, medical office or ambulatory care facility.”

Evan Nappen 26:06
So, there in the healthcare facility is this incredible list of everything they could possibly come up with to jam it to us. And there’s that word “dispensary”. Now it is true that the gun law, that gun law, does not define dispensary. That’s absolutely true. It doesn’t say it. It’s also true that they didn’t use the word “pharmacy” there. They use the word “dispensary”. So, Kenneth raises a question about it. Since they didn’t use “pharmacy”, since the definition isn’t really anywhere even in the Administrative Code which regulates pharmacy, and since we only see this reference to “dispensary” found in legalized marijuana, why would this apply at all to the pharmacy part of CVS, let’s say, or Rite Aid? I’ll tell you why. The reason is because the word “dispensary” is not defined very clearly. And because there’s no statutory definition of what the boundaries are or are not for “dispensary”, I want every one of my listeners to be safe and not become the test case.

Evan Nappen 27:49
Unless you want to be the test case. You know, call me after you get charged with the felony level offense and your entire future and gun rights and freedom and liberty are at stake. Absolutely, I’ll be happy to defend you. As a matter of fact, some of the things here that that Kenneth raises, I would happily argue in defending you, but I’ll tell you what the state’s going to do. This is where you have to know what the state’s going to do. The state’s going to say, well, Your Honor, dispensary is undefined. It’s not defined. So, we’ve got to go with what the plain meaning is and what the legislative intent was behind it. They will go to dictionaries, my friend. They will go to dictionaries. What is a dispensary? Since the court is going to have to determine what it means, what does that mean to a citizen? And what would that understanding be, since it isn’t statutorily addressed with specificity?

Evan Nappen 28:58
Well, if we go to Merriam Webster Dictionary, you’ll see that a dispensary is a noun, and it’s “a place where medicine or medical or dental treatment is dispensed.” Ah, medicine is dispensed. Then, if we go to the Cambridge dictionary, it says that a dispensary is “a place where medicines are prepared and given out, often in a hospital.” Gee, does the pharmacy at CVS or Rite Aid prepare and give out medicine there? Under Merriam Webster’s, is that a place where medicine might be dispensed? Let’s

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not stop there. Let’s go to dictionary.com and how does dictionary.com define dispensary? “A place where something is dispensed, especially medicines.” Well, gee, three different dictionaries seem to all say that what you and I would regard as the pharmacy part of CVS and Rite Aid in your local drugstore meets the definition commonly understood as to what a “dispensary” is. So, that Kenneth, my friend, is why you must not get jammed up on a sensitive place violation by pushing that issue, unless you want to, but I don’t think you do. I can tell you what we’re going to be hit with. I just read it and that’s where the fight will fall. So, be careful. Be very careful.

Evan Nappen 30:58
Now I have a question from Rob. Rob says, regarding a PTC question. Hi, Evan. Please settle a debate amongst my friends. We all have our PTC and our question is about giving law enforcement a list of firearms we intend to carry. Were we supposed to turn in an S.P. 182a.? Three of us were not asked for it and were issued our PTC. One was required to submit it. He was also the last one to get his PTC. We all went through the NJ State Police. Thanks for your input. You have a great show. P.S., what kind of cigars do you like as we’re all smokers, too.

Evan Nappen 31:41
Oh, I’d love to deal with that cigar question, but I’ll save that. Let’s talk about the list. So, when you apply for your carry, they ask on the application itself for what gun you want to carry. Now, the training of CCARE that we got through, when we got it all changed. We with the association right fighting for this, tests core competency, and it’s not gun specific. But in the old days, prior to the change, prior to Bruen, prior to the Carry Killer law, the training was gun specific, and the judges went, you know, wild on that and mandated specific guns, and only this gun. All that’s gone. So, as long as you can demonstrate, and have demonstrated with CCARE that you have core competency, then the guns you can carry are simply those that you either have put on the actual carry permit application that you filled out, or if you wish to add guns, even after your carry permit has been issued, you can do the S.P.182a. and simply submit the form. There’s no approval of guns. It’s just giving the State notice of the guns that you may wish to carry.

Evan Nappen 33:10
Now, the only downside is it does create kind of a de facto registration of your guns, because you’re submitting a list with serial numbers of guns. But if your guns are already Jersey papered with a pistol purchase form, handgun purchase form, etc, then they’re already “registered”. So, it doesn’t really matter. You’re just putting them on the list of the guns you want to carry, and your training does not go to that. Now, I’ve actually heard recently that somebody submitted a list, believe it or not, of a number of guns, and they put on the list a .22 long rifle firing pistol or handgun. I don’t know the specific model for a gun they may wish to carry, and the issuing authority, my understanding, is the issuing authority said you cannot use a .22 for self-defense. Well, folks, that is absolute, well, I think the legal term is Bullshit. In New Jersey, an air pistol is a handgun and a firearm. If you want to carry a BB pistol for self- defense, you can do it. No less a .22. A .22 can be a fine gun. No problem for self-defense.

Evan Nappen 34:38
Now look, I understand. Most folks would advise you nothing smaller than a .38, whether it’s a .380 or .38 cal., and I know all that. But here’s the point. A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44

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Magnum. If the .22 is what you shoot accurately and competently, if you can defend yourself with it and put more than one shot where you need to put it, you’re good to go. There is no prohibitor on your caliber of choice. Since you can carry two guns in New Jersey, many folks might want to carry a small .22 as a backup, even though it’s not their primary handgun. All that’s fine, if that’s what you wish to do. So, the list is your list. You put on there the guns you want to carry. But that’s it. It’s not a requirement, unless there are guns you wish to carry that were not put on your initial or renewal of your carry permit application itself. And that’s how it works. Now, if some local town is misunderstanding that and requiring the S.P.182a., well, that’s really not correct. But even if they do, you have to pick your battles, of course. So, if they want to list on that too, and you’re getting your carry permit, oh, well, who cares, really? I mean, okay, if you want to make a point about it, fine. The real problem is if they want to examine your guns that you’re putting on it and then denying you your choice of a firearm. That’s different. Because you have a right to carry whatever. If you want to carry a Smith and Wesson 500 magnum or if you want to carry a Daisy BB pistol, it’s your choice. That’s where the freedom is on that.

Evan Nappen 36:35
So, our favorite little segment here. What is the GOFU? That’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up, and that is where you get to learn about an expensive lesson for free. So, you get it on the cheap. Today’s GOFU is really a wraparound to the first story about that school shooting. You know, the Stephen King copycat-inspired killing sprees. Maybe they should call it that instead of school shootings. Maybe it would get more to the history. At least the history of it could be revealed every time these things happen. But, hey, the GOFU though is what has happened now. Not just the atrocity of the crime committed by this 14 year old. Notice that I don’t call it a tragedy. It’s not a tragedy. It’s an atrocity. It’s a crime that was committed by a 14 year old. But what happened now, the father of the 14 year old has now been charged with Murder and a host of other felony charges because he gave the firearm, the modern sporting rifle, to his son as a gift. They’re bringing criminal charges, including four counts of Involuntary Manslaughter and two counts of Second Degree Murder and eight counts of Cruelty to Children. The father is getting jammed up, too.

Evan Nappen 38:21
Now this GOFU is a GOFU because, especially if you’re in New Jersey, New Jersey has a narrow exemption when it comes to allowing minors, or even your children, to access firearms. They can access firearms as long as they are under your direct supervision, folks, direct supervision. You cannot and should not even give your kid a BB gun, because that’s a firearm in New Jersey. If you give your child any gun, your son or daughter any gun, it is a crime. You cannot give them that gun. Okay? They can use the gun under your direct supervision, but not possess it in their room, hang it on their wall, or use it whenever they feel like it. No less, any other firearm, okay?

Evan Nappen 39:24
If you as a parent don’t understand that and you allow access to any gun that is not within that exemption in New Jersey, I can well see if that son or daughter causes a problem of any sort, it doesn’t have to be, you know, a Stephen King type killing spree, copycat deal, but anything, you can be brought in over those acts. This is now trending, because they did it for and they went after the parents on that other shooting. Going after the parents is the new approach. So, as parents, particularly in New

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Jersey, that potential liability is really there, be careful. Do not allow access to your firearms by minors unless they’re under your direct supervision at all times.

Evan Nappen 40:32
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 40:40
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo music New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E202_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

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Episode 201-Pigs With Wings Spotted In Massachusetts Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 201SUMMARY KEYWORDS

knives, massachusetts, knife, law, neumann, new jersey, gun, court, carry, switchblade, pocket knife, great, second amendment rights, rights, compensator, state, citing, establishment, guns, ban

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:17
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome Gun Lawyer. So, very recently, I received reports of pigs with wings in Massachusetts. Now, why is that? Well, that is because the Massachusetts Supreme Court struck down the switchblade knife ban in Massachusetts, what we like to call taxachusetts, as unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. This is just great news. First of all, it’s Massachusetts. I mean that alone doing that. Second, it is really showing the power of the trifecta, of course, Heller, McDonald, and Bruen and its impact. (District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)) (McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010)) (New York State Rifle & Pistol Ass’n. v. Bruen, 142 S.Ct. 2III (2022)) It lays the groundwork, of course, in Massachusetts for even further liberty to be restored. It’s really exciting to see this happen. I want to go into a little bit of depth about it, because it also applies in being instructive to other jurisdictions, and I think it demonstrates why bringing the case in New Jersey to get rid of New Jersey’s switchblade ban would be an excellent thing to do. It is something where, if we can get, we being the pro-rights folks, can get a unanimous Supreme Court decision in Massachusetts to legalize switchblades, I think that says a lot of things can change that have been burdening our Second Amendment rights for a long time.

Evan Nappen 02:34
Remember, the Second Amendment is not the right to keep and bear guns. It’s the right to keep and bear arms, and knives are arms. The test of the constitutionality for a law that deals with a prohibition on arms has been pronounced under the Bruen decision, and its impact is precisely what we’re seeing here. So, the name of the case is Canjura. (Commonwealth of Massachusetts vs. David E. Canjura, SJC-13432) What really makes it great as a challenge here in this Massachusetts case is this was an actual guy, David Canjura, who was arrested and charged with switchblade possession in 2020. Okay, so this is what we call an actual case in controversy. This is an actual criminal defendant. This isn’t a civil action where you bring a declaratory judgment, and you ask the court to rule on constitutionality. This is a guy who was busted in Boston for possessing a switchblade and charged under that Massachusetts law, who said, hey, you’re violating my Second Amendment rights with this charge.

Evan Nappen 04:09
He was, believe it or not, represented by the Public Defender, and they did a really good job. It was the Committee for Public Counsel Services, Public Defender Division, which were his attorneys. Now he

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was joined in the challenge in Massachusetts by other interested parties, of course, that filed briefs including Knife Rights, but I want to give credit to the Public Defender for utilizing the Second Amendment rights and using it to fight this type of criminal charge. We need all the Public Defenders to use the Second Amendment in defense of weapons charges. You can see what the results will be. In this case, the fellow here had this knife. Apparently, the knife he had was an orange firearm-shaped knife with a spring-assisted blade. It must have been some interesting, imported knife, most likely, that was a switchblade, but we would call it an automatic knife that happened to be in this shape. The shape of a gun didn’t mean a thing. It’s a switchblade knife which was banned in Mass. and no longer is.

Evan Nappen 05:55
So, it was a 24-page decision, and it goes through the Bruen history. Now Bruen, when you challenge it, you have to show what is called text, history and tradition. The Government has the burden of proving that these types of laws prohibiting knives, in this case switchblades, basically existed at the time of the Second Amendment. They have to demonstrate it, and the burden is on them to demonstrate it. The other thing that has to be shown is whether the weapon is not what they’re calling dangerous and unusual. So, something that must be in common use. The Court has to get those issues wrestled with in order to test the constitutionality and that’s what the Court did. What makes it really interesting, particularly, is in the opinion the Court does, and this is how it has to work by the way, explore the history of switchblades and were they even considered arms? Are they arms? Were switchblades even coming under the definition of arms in the right to keep and bear arms?

Evan Nappen 07:25
So, in the decision, one of the things that the court cites, and I’ll read you exactly word for word what it says in the opinion. It says the first known folding knives have been found in Roman sites dating back to the first century. Then it says, “See G. Neumann, Swords and Blades of the American Revolution (1973)”. Now let me tell you right here. George Neumann was a personal friend of mine, and I miss George Neumann. He was a wealth of knowledge. He was the expert in the United States on not just swords and blades of the American Revolution, but all weapons and accouterments. Really all the items of the American Revolution and Revolutionary War, soldiers and such. He was a member of the Forks of the Delaware Arms Collectors, and he was there for years and years. I’ve known him since I was 17, basically, going to that show. George actually helped me with various things, personally. Rev War items. He helped identify a Revolutionary War musket that I have. George was just a great guy, and he was so influential. His book was utilized, and is being utilized here, in demonstrating the history to regain our Second Amendment liberties that have been stolen from us. So, his impact was not only to what he and I and others love, the history of weapons and the collecting of the various weapons, but also his impact was even to the law. He is even cited in the Heller decision as well on his works as to what were the weapons of the American Revolution.

Evan Nappen 09:37
The Court of Massachusetts cites the Heller decision, citing George Neumann, and they say further, “Knives and daggers were personal necessities to the early American.” Then the Court even goes on. “Of the many varieties of knives, none has been a more constant and enduring companion to man than the pocketknife.” They’re citing Delgado here. (State of Oregon v. Delgado, 298 OR. 395 (1984)). Now, Delgado was the Oregon Supreme Court case back in 1984, folks, on switchblades. In 1984, well

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before Heller was even a dream in somebody’s head. The Oregon Supreme Court in effect legalized switchblades in a beautifully written Second Amendment decision by the Oregon Supreme Court. And that’s why you saw the beginnings of the American modern automatic knife manufacturing taking place in Oregon, like Benchmade and others, because the knife law there was constitutionally protected and identified. Here, Delgado is being relied upon by the Massachusetts Supreme Court.

Evan Nappen 10:58
As it was, as well, with Neumann in another case called Kessler (State of Oregon vs. Randy Kessler) that came out of Oregon by the Heller court, which was, of course, the landmark decision in the U.S. Supreme Court on our Second Amendment rights by the late great Justice Scalia. The Massachusetts Court goes further quoting, and this is all intertwined with Neumann and Delgado. “As America developed and its frontiers moved inland, the custom of wearing belt knives waned in coastal areas. The result was a great increase in folding knives to the point where they became almost universal accessories.” Citing Neumann. “Contemporary sources referred to this category of knives by a variety of names, including ‘pocketknives,’ ‘jackknives,’ ‘clasp knives,’ ‘spring knives,’ and ‘folding knives.'” Again, citing Neumann. “During the time of the Revolutionary War, folding knives were so popular that ‘[o]rders from New York, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts actually listed them as required accessories.” Again, citing George Neumann. “Long- bladed folding jackknives were commonly used for fighting, although some were also used for farm work. Smaller pocketknives were very popular for hunting, fighting and as tools (depicting “Three different small knives that were commonly used between 1750 and 1850). In addition to the pocketknife and jackknife, folding daggers also became more common in the nineteenth century and were particularly popular in the United States.”

Evan Nappen 12:54
So, here we see the Court recognizing in detail the historical significance of knives. Even to think that the Court is finally honestly looking at our American history when it comes to our proud tradition with knives, is extremely encouraging, and here you see its impact. The Court makes it clear that switchblades are arms, why they are arms, and why they fall under this. Again, they talk about, for example, Neumann depicting an English pocketknife, circa 1750 to 1840, featuring a steel base spring that helps to lock the blade in an open position. Then they talk about depicting a pocketknife with an outside steel spring mechanism, and it’s held by a bottom pin. Then a French-Spanish pocketknife with a spring opening mechanism, what we would call a switchblade today. All these things go back to the history, and that history is what secures our rights in these challenges. So, history is incredibly important when it comes to our Second Amendment rights. That’s why history, text and tradition is the test, and that’s what the courts must consider. And here the Massachusetts Supreme Court did exactly that.

Evan Nappen 14:28
Now, additionally, the Court had to find that these were not only arms and bearable arms, but also that they were in common use. Common use is yet another demonstration that the Court must, in effect, be provided with and then make a determination. The Court on seeing this, saw that, of course, it is tremendously in common use. I want to tell you that one of the reasons that it is in common use has to do with the modern knife liberty movement. I’m proud to say that the modern knife liberty movement started essentially in 2010. I’m going to tell you right now, and I’m not just trying to toot my own horn

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here, folks, but I’m proud of it. I helped spearhead the knife liberty movement in 2010, working closely with Knife Rights, and we were able to get New Hampshire’s ban on switchblade, dagger, Dirk and stilettos repealed in 2010. That was the first modern repeal of a knife law in America in 2010. The story is a fascinating story about how we succeeded in doing that, and you can read that whole story online for free if you go to the website, knifelawonline.com, knifelawonline.com. You can read the history of New Hampshire’s knife rights movement, and you’ll find the article that I wrote in 2013. I got permission from Blade Magazine, the company to reprint it. You can read the article that explained how we were able to convince the legislature in New Hampshire, which by the way, was all Democrat. A Democrat House, Democrat Senate, and Democrat Governor. When we repealed the ban on switchblades, dagger, Dirk and stiletto in New Hampshire, there was not a single vote against it.

Evan Nappen 17:10
That miracle in New Hampshire was then capitalized on brilliantly by Knife Rights and their success has been astounding. Knife Rights has put forward 49 bills repealing knife bans in 31 states. Because of all the repeals that have taken place since 2010, there are only a small handful of states that even ban switchblades anymore. I think the number is something like six or eight states. That’s it. The majority of the country now no longer has a switchblade knife ban, and you can add Massachusetts to that list. These knives are in common use now throughout America because of the knife liberty movement, and it is a factor, very important factor, in seeing the laws overturned. As we speak now, Knife Rights is fighting a federal court action to finally get rid of the Federal Switchblade Act, which restricts a certain degree in the interstate commerce in these. You know, it was passed in the ’50s. It’s archaic, and it needs to go. Why should we have this national law when so few states even have any prohibitions whatsoever? They’re falling like timber over the Second Amendment challenges. So, it’s very exciting, and it’s just great to see, especially in a state like Massachusetts, where the law against possession and carry of automatic knives has been found unconstitutional.

Evan Nappen 19:23
Now, if you ask yourself, what about New Jersey? Well, New Jersey’s knife laws are still ripe for challenge. If you want to understand New Jersey knife laws, I extensively explain them in my book. So, I will now shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. You can get your copy at EvanNappen.com. It’s over 50 pages with 120 topics, all Question and Answer explained, and that includes knife laws in Jersey. What knives can you carry? What is the law on knives? Are there blade length restrictions, etc. I tell you all about it and what you need to know. By understanding our current law, you also understand better when the challenge is made, and we will see it, I’m sure. We are daily seeing challenges throughout America to these infringements that have been on our rights for so long. If you get a copy of my book, and I hope you all have a copy, make sure you scan the front cover, the QR code. Get to my private subscriber base, and you’ll be able to access the archives for all the updates. I’ll be sending you email alerts of any new developments in law. So, get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law today at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 20:51
I also want to mention, of course, our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, very convenient, right off the Parkway. They are a great resource, a great place to shoot, and that is where I personally got my CCARE certification. So did my brother, my son and so many

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others. Everybody loves WeShoot for a good reason. It is a just a great range with great people. They will treat you like family. Anything you need in terms of your training, in terms of equipment, they have it. They are first rate, first rate. Check out WeShoot. You can go to their website at weshootusa.com. They have really excellent photography. I mean, they really do. They pride themselves on that. Check out their website. Go down to WeShoot, mention my name and watch what happens. No joke, man. My name has like some currency down there, I guess. But you’ll see. So, WeShoot is the range for you in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 22:11
Of course, I want to mention our good friends at the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You see they are our state gun rights, premier gun rights, protector. They are currently in the courts fighting the Carry Killer bill, the so-called assault firearm law, and the large capacitor magazine law. The battle is ongoing, as we speak, and they are making great progress. I’m confident we’ll see them take other steps, hopefully, toward getting rid of New Jersey’s knife laws. The Association is dynamic. They’re there in Trenton. They’re in the fight. They’re also in the legislature with a full time paid lobbyist, keeping an eye on those scoundrels down there, letting us know about the shenanigans, so that you can be informed, and you can let your voice be heard. You’ll get a great newsletter and email alerts when you’re a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Just go to anjrpc.org and join today. Be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 23:25
So, I’ve gotten some great questions. I love the questions from listeners, and I want to share with you these questions today. This is from David, and it says, regarding no gun signs. Hello, Evan. First, I’d like to thank you for your many years of advocacy and hard work to preserve our 2A rights. I’m a proud owner of your book, and I try to attend your live seminars when possible. Well, thanks, Dave. My question is this. I have a friend who owns a liquor establishment in New Jersey. As a concealed carry licensee in New Jersey, I’m well aware of prohibition of carry in these establishments. My friend took it upon himself to post a NO GUNS SIGN in his establishment. Is he obligated to do this? He’s not a fan of guns, so I took this as an anti 2A stance. He’s already received negative feedback from gun owners. If he is indeed obligated by law to post this, then perhaps I’m being too sensitive. If he’s not obligated to do this, may I add his establishment to a long list of establishments I don’t patronize. Thank you for much for your advice.

Evan Nappen 24:34
Okay, here’s the deal. He’s not obligated to do this. He’s not obligated at all. Now, of course, the gun rights oppressors in the New Jersey Government want people to put up those signs, but it’s not required by law at all. Now, when you say he has a liquor establishment, let’s be clear. If liquor is not consumed there, if it is simply a liquor store, then you’re allowed to carry in a liquor store that is open to the public. You’re allowed to do that. Now, if it is a bar or restaurant serving alcohol, then you cannot. I don’t know what type of establishment he has. But even if it is a sensitive place where alcohol is consumed and sold for consumption, etc, there’s no need for him to put up a sign that you’re not allowed to carry there. It’s currently a sensitive place which is being fought, by the way, by the Association in Federal court as we speak. But no sign is required. So, that sign, regardless of whether it’s a prohibited place or not, is voluntary on his part, and all he’s doing is discouraging customers.

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Because if you are a law-abiding gun carrier, then you know, if it’s an establishment involving liquor that is a sensitive place, you know not to go in there with your gun. You don’t need a freaking sign. All the sign says is, express a gun rights oppression attitude, and that’s something that is not helpful. So, maybe in a nice way, you want to tell him. Hey, look, unless you think a sign is actually going to make you safer, which is laughable, it actually makes you more dangerous, because they know, hey, there’s no guns. That’s a good place to hit. Don’t have to worry about any problems from people defending themselves. It’s a victim zone. It’s a nice victim zone, right? So, maybe he needs to understand that concept. But there’s no sign, no signs. So, Dave, I hope you can get that situation resolved, but that’s the status of signs.

Evan Nappen 27:09
This one is from John. John says, Evan, I absolutely love your podcast and feel like I know 99% more than anyone else because of it. That’s right, because the person you don’t know more about is me. I’m just kidding. Okay, but thanks, John. I have two questions John asks. I know we have a duty to disclose when being pulled over while being a permit to carry a handgun holder, but if we are stopped by an officer walking down the street, do we have a duty to disclose? The answer is yes. Yes, it’s not just in a motor vehicle, but even stopped in the street. You have a duty to disclose. Then question two, I recently received a renewal of my permit to carry handgun. They are now digital. Do I need to carry a physical permit, or is the digital stored on my phone sufficient? I would tell you that has not been decided by a court, but I would strongly recommend that you have a physical copy. If for no other reason, you can hand the physical copy to the officer instead of giving them your phone. We don’t need your phone in the hands of law enforcement with them scrolling all your love letters and emails and all that kind of stuff, right? So, have a physical copy. Print it up and carry it with you. And that’s really the best idea. If you want to have it on your phone as a backup, I mean, whatever. But I would strongly suggest a physical copy. Thanks, John.

Evan Nappen 28:46
Now this is from Vinnie. Vinnie wants to know if the form for the guns that you’re going to carry, S.P. 182a, is required. (https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml) Just renewed my PTC, and I no longer have a judge issued permit. Oh, thank god, you no longer have a judge-issued permit. What a mess those were. That permit restricted my carry to guns I qualified with. I’m sorry if you went over this. As a loyal listener, I don’t remember hearing about it. You know what? I don’t mind repeating it. It’s important.

Evan Nappen 29:24
Once the new system got in place and finally, judges were removed from the process. Remember, the judges were the ones taking away our rights, not protecting our rights. They were the ones creating all these restrictions and extra orders on your permit, you know, you can only have it when the moon is full and such. You know, bizarre stuff. So, here’s the deal. That’s gone, and there’s no more gun specific restriction. As long as you passed CCARE which tested your core competency, you can carry any handgun that you’ve listed. So, you can list the guns on that form or when you apply for your PTC, it asks what guns you intend to carry. You can put it there as well. There is no individual certification by gun anymore, the way the judges used to bust our balls over that. No longer. Whatever gun you qualify with, that’s okay. It tested your core competency. You could even pass CCARE with an air pistol,

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because that is technically a handgun and a firearm in New Jersey, and as long as you pass the requirements with an air pistol, you could carry a Smith and Wesson 500 Magnum if you wanted to. It’s not gun specific. It’s core competency. Just list the guns on either the form S.P. 182a or when you do your application. Okay, thanks, Vinnie.

Evan Nappen 31:03
I have a question here from Alex. Alex is big fan of the podcast. Thank you for all you do for the 2A community. Well, you’re welcome. He has a question about AR builds. I was looking to get a Surefire Muzzle Break so that I could eventually put on a Warden Blast Regulator. My concern is whether or not a muzzle break is legal in New Jersey. Even though it can be pinned and welded, it’s still able to accept a threaded on device, like a Warden, or even the Surefire suppressor.

Evan Nappen 31:39
So, Alex, here’s where you’re getting into some uncharted, dangerous territory. You see, the whole deal with the threaded barrel on an AR is that it’s one of the offending features under the 1996 Attorney General Guidelines. So, you can’t have a threaded barrel, and you can’t have a flash suppressor. You can have a muzzle break, but not a threaded barrel. Therefore, if you have what is a bona fide muzzle break and it’s on a threaded barrel but it’s pinned and welded so the threads can no longer be utilized, then you no longer have a threaded barrel, because it’s welded or pinned in such a way it can’t be utilized. And you do not have a flash suppressor. You have a muzzle break or compensator, which is different. So, if you’re going down that road, if you have a muzzle device, you want to get the documentation that your muzzle device is not a flash hider or flash suppressor. Okay?

Evan Nappen 32:53
You’re allowed to have a compensator. You’re allowed to have a break, and you want the documentation, because I’ve had to have those fights defending law-abiding criminals in New Jersey over that insanity. So, protect yourself by making sure you have the documentation that your compensator is a compensator. I’ll tell you right now, folks. The State confuses them. They can’t even tell the difference between a compensator and a silencer. I’ve had them called compensators silencers even when the compensator actually made the gun louder. Believe me, you want to have your documentation. That way I could present it to the prosecutor and make it clear that you were in compliance. They don’t even understand it,, but we can prove to them that it’s not one of those prohibited devices. And so, the threading, unfortunately, is a separate offending feature. So, if you put something on there that makes it part of the barrel, because you welded it, but it still has threading.

Evan Nappen 34:02
Now, the State could try to argue that although the compensator or the other device is okay because it’s not a flash suppressor, they might argue that you still have a threaded barrel, which is an offending feature. If you have an AR with a pistol grip and you have that second offending feature, you’re now looking at possession of an assault firearm. So, you have to be very careful. If you are going to have a muzzle device, document that it’s not a prohibited device. Make sure your barrels on your ARs are not threaded. If it was at one time, make sure that whatever the device is permanently affixed, so that there is no more threading that’s able to be used. And that’s how you have to protect yourself in the DPR NJ. That’s the Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey.

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Evan Nappen 35:01
Now let’s get to the favorite section, the favorite segment of Gun Lawyer. And that, of course, is the GOFU. What’s the GOFU? What’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up? Why do we talk about GOFUs? Because these are expensive lessons that you get to learn for free. This week’s GOFU. Well, here’s the bottom line, folks. When you’re carrying concealed, you want to make sure your gun stays concealed. It has to be concealed. If it’s not concealed, then the State can claim you are open carrying, and that’s a crime in New Jersey under the so-called safe carry requirements. So, beware. In this case, an individual was riding a motorcycle, and when you ride a motorcycle, there is wind, as any motorcyclist will tell you. The wind from riding the bike blew the clothing, the jacket, the shirt, whatever it was, so that the gun got exposed. This caused law enforcement involvement and caused problems, problems you’d rather not have. So, be very, very careful. Now, you know, I can defend this. There are provisions in the law that talk about a brief showing of the gun in movement and such. But you don’t want to have to rely on that, folks. You want to make sure your concealed carry gun stays concealed. If you’re going to be in an environment where it might have a greater chance of being exposed, be careful. Make sure it stays concealed, or you will experience a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 37:15
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:25
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E201_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 200- What’s Komrade Harris’s Position on Guns?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 200SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, firearm, new jersey, trigger, gun rights, place, rights, atf, law, forced, crank, lawyer, reset, lease, called, comrade, shoot, officer, person, stocks

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you know, a big question that has been out there is, what are the policies of Comrade Harris? Now, Comrade Harris has not been very forthcoming with much specificity about her policies. However, when it comes to our Second Amendment rights, she is not bashful at all. So, I want to discuss with you her proposals and what she’s going to do to our rights and why she will become the premier Gun Rights Oppressor if she becomes the next president. You need to be aware of this. I have the sources here to explain to you exactly where they’re coming from. A lot of it is what you might expect from the party of oppression, the Democrats, and that is not stopping here on our Second Amendment rights, that’s for sure.

Evan Nappen 01:32
So, the first thing that the Democrats do, and what Comrade Harris has put forward here is the propaganda twist of Big Brother-type lies in the same manner as George Orwell. You know, very Orwellian, when you had like the Ministry of Truth, which was all about lies. So, it’s always the opposite of what it actually is. So, her statement at the recent destroy America party convention that was just held where she received the nomination, having not received a single vote from any American in any primary, but yet is their candidate. She said, the freedom, and this is the platform, the freedom to live safe from gun violence in our schools, community and places of worship. Now think about that. This person somehow twists freedom, the idea of our liberty, the idea of what is our right to a freedom “to live safe from gun violence in our schools, community, and places of worship.

Evan Nappen 03:12
Of course, it’s not living free from violence, just violence itself. But then, again, there’s good violence, and there’s bad violence, right? If someone’s threatening your life, you’re going to use violence to defend your life. That’s good violence. It’s criminal violence that we want to be concerned with. But no, no. If we start trying to do something about criminal violence, then we have to do something about criminals, and that means going after Democrat constituents. They don’t want to do that. So, let’s focus on the guns and call it “gun violence”. Now they couch this that somehow, by oppressing our rights, that it will make you, that it will set you free. It will give us the freedom you see, by oppressing your rights. There’s absolutely no logic when you start taking apart their propaganda and that’s what we’re going to do on this show.

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Evan Nappen 04:12
So, what are the specifics to give us such great freedom? What is it that she’s looking to do, specifically, and for that matter, the entire Democrat party. What are they looking to do? Well, the answer can be found in what she has said and the Democrat party platform. The Democrat party platform that’s, of course, endorsed by Comrade Harris, says the following. There are about seven agenda items of right suppression. This is from the platform. Democrats will establish Universal Background Checks. So, that is UBC. Universal Background Checks is code for universal gun registration and the ending of any private sales, and to make sure that they know who has the guns. This makes it very easy to confiscate them. As we’ve discussed before, but in case you forgot, the four words go something along the lines of Legislation, then Registration, then Confiscation, then Extermination. That’s a pattern that’s been followed through history, and we’ve seen it in every major holocaust that human race has faced since the existence of firearms. So, be very, very wary of so- called Universal Background Checks. UBC is code for gun registration, which is simply the march toward those other things happening.

Evan Nappen 06:00
They will once again ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines. So, she wants to ban modern sporting rifles and standard capacity magazines. The Federal assault firearm ban was useless. It had no impact on crime, of course. Now, it did have some positive effects. One of the most positive effects, particularly the magazine capacity prohibition, was by limiting it to 10 rounds, it forced handgun makers to actually make handguns that were accurate. Now, they had to actually shoot well, because you can’t just spray and pray with 10 rounds. So, they had to improve accuracy and make handguns more concealable, but at a larger caliber. Since you could only carry 10 rounds, it had the wonderful effect of making more accurate, more deadly, and more concealable handguns, which is great for self-defense. I have no problem with that, but I really don’t want to see a magazine ban. Because on the flip side, what it does is it turns law-abiding citizens into criminals, especially when there’s no grandfathering. They have said over and over again that they don’t want to have grandfathering, that pesky grandfathering thing again, when they pass these laws. Of course, assault weapons that we’ve discussed over and over is simply modern sporting rifles, semi-automatics. They just want to have a sweeping ban, to prohibit as many guns as they can under that banner.

Evan Nappen 07:50
She’s even gone so far as to say she wants a mandatory buyback. Isn’t that cute? Buyback? How can you buy back something that’s not yours in the first place? You’re not buying back anything. What you’re doing is forcing people to forfeit their property and then allegedly giving them some type of compensation, which is always a fraction of the actual worth. Not that any of us want to part with our firearms for some Government-issued money. It’s one thing if you want to sell your own gun, I get it. That’s a personal choice. But if you are forced to sell it so that you have criminal penalties if you fail to do so? Well, that is a Democrat highlight, I guess, of oppression. They will require, this is again from the Democrat Platform, safe storage for firearms. Oh, how nice that sounds. They want to require safe storage. What that really means is we have to lock up our safety. Your gun has to remain in a locked cabinet, so that when the hot robbery is taking place, when the gang of MS 13 Democrats is attacking your home, you get to ask them to please wait while you unlock your gun safe and load your gun so that you can defend yourself. Yeah, that will work out really well.

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Evan Nappen 09:28
Democrats will “end the industry’s immunity from liability”. What does that mean? That means they want to end the consumer protection that’s been put in place to protect the firearm industry from lawsuits. Part of the anti-gun rights oppressors’ plans are to litigate and sue the gun industry out of existence. So, by abusing the tort system and suing gun makers for the criminal acts of third parties, they can bankrupt the gun manufacturing industry in America. But they don’t put it that way, of course. They say it is so gun makers can no longer escape accountability. Oh, yeah, isn’t that pleasant? Their propaganda is always astounding, but nonetheless, what do we expect from our Comrade?

Evan Nappen 10:34
They will pass a national Red Flag Law, and what is Red Flag? It’s confiscation without due process. New Jersey is currently suffering under its Red Flag law, known as ERPO, Extreme Risk Protection Orders. It can be filed by just any lie by any person. The next thing you know, your guns are seized, and your rights are taken. You don’t even know what’s happening. Finally, down the road, after all the damage has been done, your house was searched and your guns were taken, you finally get a hearing. How nice of them. At that hearing, you get to fight to get your rights back. And of course, these ERPOs are quite deadly and dangerous for gun owners because the police don’t know who they’re dealing with. All they know is it’s an extreme risk. Law-abiding citizens have been shot and killed during the execution of these orders. By “swatting”, by folks that just make up lies and have them hit your house. They come armed and ready to seize your guns. So, you know, Red Flag is bad news. New Jersey is proof of it, and the rights abuse and due process abuse is just astounding with red flag, so called red flag. We’ve got to stop it from taking place nationally. It’s a violation of our Fourth Amendment rights against unlawful search and seizure and a violation of due process. Yet, the courts in the gun rights oppressive states are very slow to apply those other rights that we have. Of course, all this is being done, don’t forget, in the name of a freedom, freedom. This is all for freedom, my friends. Freedom. I mean, it’s just nauseating, right?

Evan Nappen 12:38
Then, of course, they’ll increase funding for BATF and FBI for the background checks. So, you know, continue with the weaponization of our Government agencies and the constant attack on law-abiding citizens. That is, of course, fundamental to gun rights oppression. So, they have a very complete and thorough platform of gun rights oppression and that is Comrade Harris’s position on guns. Now her other policies at the moment, nobody knows for sure. Of course, she isn’t really talking to the media or having questions asked or putting forward specific policy. But they seem to have made an exception for guns. When it comes to taking our rights, they seem to have no problem saying exactly what they want to do to oppress our gun rights. Whenhen it comes to the election, make sure you vote accordingly if you care about your gun rights. Make sure you know that that this is down the pike if she is successful in her election. I just wanted to make sure that Gun Lawyer listeners were aware of the facts about her position on guns and gun rights.

Evan Nappen 14:00
Now, with that being said, I want to bring to your attention an article that I saw that is just insane. I just have to talk about it, because it is so bizarre. This is from The Daily Beast, which normally is kind of,

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you know, out there to the left. A pretty strong lefty publication there, but nonetheless, sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut. The Daily Beast had an article, and the title is, “American Backpacker Flips in Court Over Gold-Plated Gun”. (https://www.thedailybeast.com/american-backpacker-liliana-goodson- flips-in-court-over-gold-plated-gun) I swear you can’t make this stuff up. Wait until you hear this. Ready?

Evan Nappen 14:46
Now, of course, the person involved in this is from Florida. Somehow, it’s always a Floridian in this insanity. I don’t know why that is. I’m going to read this. Owen Lavine wrote this article. Here’s the subtitle to the article. “A Floridian was on their way to clown school in Sydney, Australia, when authorities found the weapon in their luggage.” I got to tell you. I totally believe that this person was going to clown school. You’ve got to see the picture of this person. It is beyond words. And you talk about the opposite of drawing attention to yourself. I mean, she may as well, or he, or whatever it is. They don’t use the pronouns. Yeah, I don’t know. This person may have, literally, been dressed as like Ronald McDonald or something. But actually, they look even crazier. If you want to check out that article, you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Evan Nappen 15:53
The firearm that they had is a Colt. It’s an actual Colt. I can see the Colt slide. It’s a Colt 1911, but it is gold plated with a pearl handled grip. You can make that out in the picture. So, it’s a full size 1911 with a pearl-handled grip. And what happened here is they were apparently heading to Australia for this clown school, and they wanted to bring this gun. The name of the person is Liliana Goodson, who uses they/them pronouns, and said they, I guess, meaning her, singular, but we have to say they, “were on their way to a ‘clown institute in Sydney’ when they were stopped at Sydney Airport with a Colt .45-style pistol and ammunition in their luggage. . . ” This is the Daily Beast quoting the Daily Mail. Goodson, ready for this, also shared that they, again, they plural for a singular, were carrying a “cat spine, squirrel feet and rabbit pee”. Well, of course. I mean, who the hell doesn’t go to Australia with a gold-plated .45 1911 with pearl grips and a cat spine and squirrel feet and rabbit pee? Especially when you’re going to clown school in Sydney. Come on. Then it says, “When I got here, the gun wasn’t even in the back of my mind at all, they said, and they said that my memory failed me. The investigator said that they tried to search on Google what to do, but they weren’t exactly sure, so they apparently brought it to Australia anyway and didn’t worry about it. Then they claimed they’re actually “scared of shooting” the gun, but they’re from L.A. Oh, are you shocked that they’re from L.A.? They said, if you just brandish a weapon, people will scatter. There you go. That’s a hell of a self-defense training, right there, huh? Brandish your gold- plated pearl grip 1911 and, I guess, wave cat spines and rabbit pee at them or something like that, and they just scatter. Then here’s the greatest part. They entered a guilty plea in the court in Australia. It says that “she backflipped and pled guilty. Literally did a backflip in court and pled guilty. Goodson’s Attorney apparently did say that they suffered from mental health challenges. I don’t know. I somehow find that hard to believe but check out that article. You’ll see the picture. It is the world we live in.

Evan Nappen 19:15
Speaking of which, as the fight continues for our gun rights, New Jersey is a hotbed of such problems. In order to continue the fight, you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs.

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They are the NRA affiliate in New Jersey. They are the ones fighting for our rights in the courts and in the legislature. They have a full time paid lobbyist keeping an eye on the shenanigans down in Trenton, which seemed to never end, and they are battling the good fight in federal court and making headway. Fighting for our ability to carry. Fighting New Jersey’s so-called assault firearm ban and large capacity magazine ban. Every day, they are fighting the gun rights oppressors and their agenda. By joining the Association, you become part of the solution. You’ll get the updates, the great newsletter, and the emails. It’s a great group. Show your support. Join anjrpc.org,njrpc.org today. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 20:28
Also, I want to mention WeShoot, our favorite range in Central Jersey, right there in Lakewood. Right off the Parkway. They are my range, a great range, and it is a resource that you can take advantage of. They have top notch staff and great training programs. Get your carry certificate there and training, your CCARE. They’ll help you out. They’ll help you get set up, get your gear, get everything you need to exercise your Second Amendment rights. Plus, you have a great place to shoot. Our ranges are an important resource. As you know, we’re looking forward to Lieutenant Colonel Hartman’s visit. I’ll be letting you know the date for the training by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, the IDF Master Sniper, who created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. He’ll be personally training. If you want to take advantage of that training, check out his online course. As a matter of fact, in order to go to the live training seminar, which will be free, you need to take this course. You can access it right online at elitemarksman.com Elitemarksman.com. I’ve talked to a lot of folks that have already done it, and it’s a magnificent course. You’re really going to learn a lot, and you’re going to learn from the guy who’s been there, done that, the real deal. He’s got an amazing resume. He was one of the, actually, I think, the only Jewish soldier ever to make the cover of Soldier of Fortune. He’s a really interesting guy. When you go to that website (www.elitemarksman.com), make sure you use the promo code, GUNLAWYER (all caps). Gun Lawyer. You’ll will get $100 off the program.

Evan Nappen 22:23
Another thing of great importance is getting my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. I explain all the laws. It’s actually over 500 pages. The book itself can be a weapon. That’s just a joke, folks. But it is a substantial book, and it is the only book that explains what you need to know about New Jersey gun laws. When you get the book, scan the front cover, and get in my subscriber list so that you can access, for free, the archives. You will be able to get the email updates that come out so the book will stay current. To buy your copy, you just have to go to EvanNappen.com. That’s EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book right there. That’s my website. Get yourself a copy today.

Evan Nappen 23:29
Hey, here is some more really important news. The ATF just lost another one. This is on Force Reset Triggers (FRT), such as Rare Breed Triggers FTR-15s. Force Reset Triggers. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/08/atf-requested-stay-denied-in-force-reset-trigger-case/) You may say, what is a Force Reset Trigger? Well, a Force Reset Trigger allows you to fire your gun very quickly. It is far superior to a bump stock, and it simulates machine gun fire. Oh, my God. How can we have a gun that shoots lots of bullets by pulling the trigger for every shot when with a semi- automatic, we can fire lots of bullets by pulling a trigger with every shot? Yeah, I know it’s crazy. Butut the good

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news is Judge Reed O’Connor, who is a wonderful judge in Texas, determined that the Force Reset Triggers that ATF went around confiscating claiming they were machine guns, as a matter of fact they confiscated almost 12,000 Force Reset Triggers, not only was it declared unconstitutional, but ATF is required to return them. That’s just wonderful. I love that they have to give them back.

Evan Nappen 25:06
Now, I know there are a number of people in New Jersey that ATF paid special visits to. To convince them, cajole them, scare them, into giving up their force reset triggers under their confiscation program, under the senile sock puppet. I’m sorry, I mean Joe Biden. When they did this, they scared a lot of people into doing it. They used threats and all kinds of things. Well, guess what, folks? If you were somebody that had your Force Reset Trigger seized, ATF is ordered to return it, and the judge denied a stay of that order. It’s not stayed. It’s in effect. I know ATF is going to appeal it, but good luck, considering the Cargill case. Under Cargill that invalidated what? Their bump stock prohibition. And guess what? Bump stocks do something very similar to force reset triggers, only better.

Evan Nappen 26:14
I’ll tell you one other thing about force reset triggers that you may find very interesting. Under New Jersey law, bump stocks are separately prohibited. So, even though bump stocks are now arguably okay in the USA, although they’re still trying to appeal it and fight it, you may want to wait a little bit longer. But hey, it’s pretty darn good there on that front with bump stocks. New Jersey law separately prohibits bump stocks. So, in New Jersey, you still can’t have a bump stock because it was invalidated, not on Second Amendment grounds. It was invalidated on overreach and a violation of their administrative agency powers. You know, abuse of agency power is what invalidated it. But you see New Jersey prohibits bump stocks and New Jersey prohibits trigger cranks. I guess sometimes, if get cranky while shooting, we might consider ourselves to be a trigger crank, but that’s not what they’re talking about. In New Jersey, a trigger crank means any device or instrument attached to a firearm that repeatedly activates the trigger of the firearm through the use of a lever or other part that is turned in a circular motion. (N.J.S. 2C:39-1ff.) You know, like hell fire. Those devices.

Evan Nappen 27:51
Butut it doesn’t include any weapon initially designed and manufactured to fire through a crank or lever. So, first of all, you may be surprised to learn that in New Jersey, Gatling guns are legal. That’s right. You can have a Gatling gun in New Jersey. You can even have one of those newly made Gatling guns by Tippmann. (https://tippmannordnance.com/gatling-gun/) You know, the 9 mm Gatling guns that use Glock mags. That’s okay, because it’s originally made with a crank. But you can’t have a gun where you added the crank. That’s because legislators are kind of cranky about the whole thing, right? So, Gatling guns, okay. Trigger cranks, no good. Bump stocks, no good.

Evan Nappen 28:39
But, drum roll, please. Force reset triggers are legal in New Jersey. They’re not prohibited. So, a force reset trigger is not a bump stock. A force reset trigger is not a trigger crank. For that matter, neither is a binary trigger. You know, Franklin Armory and such, where the firearm will fire on both the pull and the release of the trigger. It’s still two actions. But the force reset triggers, plainly, not a bump stock, plainly not a trigger crank. So, if ATF wants to give you back your force reset trigger because they’re

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mandated to do so, 12,00012,000 of them, by the way, and you live in New Jersey, well, happily accept it back and enjoy it.

Evan Nappen 29:34
Let me also bring to your attention some letters that I received. I always love getting letters. This one’s from Thomas. He says, I enjoyed your podcast 182. What happens if a spouse did not estate plan for handguns to go to a child, and they went to the surviving spouse? After both parents pass away, do children get custody of the handguns just like the spouse did? The answer is as long as the children are the beneficiary of the last deceased spouse, then the entire estate would go to those residuary beneficiaries, those beneficiaries, and if that estate includes guns, and the answer is yes. Those guns go to the heirs or beneficiaries, whoever they may be. You do not have to specifically say that guns go to your heirs or beneficiaries if they’re getting your whole estate. If you want to split it up, where certain guns go to certain people, or you want your estate to go to your spouse, but the guns to go to your kids, then you need to spell it out. But the answer here would be yes. The children do get the guns, as long as they’re the ones that are getting the estate. Normally, that’s how it works. So, thanks for the question, Thomas.

Evan Nappen 31:09
Then I have another question, and this one is from Jeff. And Jeff says, Mr. Nappen, I was listening to Gun Lawyer, as I always do, and I was interested in the answer you gave about carrying in a sensitive place, with exemption, if it is your place of business. I’m a physician. I have a concealed carry. I work in a private practice, but the building is leased from the hospital. In other words, I’m a partner in the practice, but the hospital owns the building. I spend the majority of my time at work, unfortunately. I would like to carry there. Do you think the fact that is my place of business trumps the sensitive place issue? The answer there is, if you actually lease wherever you are there, then that is your office that you lease, and that is your place of business. The hospital is merely the landlord, and you now have the dominion control and leasehold you’re leasing that office. If you’re in that office that you are leasing, then that is your place of business. And under the sensitive places exemptions under 2C:39-6e. exempt from sensitive places. One of the exemptions under 2C:39-6e. is place of business. So, if it is bona fide your place of business and it is land essentially owned or possessed by you by way of a lease, then you have exemption of both, arguably, land owned or possessed and place of business. It’s your business. You’re the partner in the practice that you are leasing under, I’m assuming, an agreement for that spot, for that place, just as any other business might lease its offices or storefront or anything else. That’s how it works. So, it appears, from what your question has asked, that yes, you are covered.

Evan Nappen 33:02
Now let’s go to the favorite segment of Gun Lawyer, which is the GOFU. And what are GOFUs? GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. And why do we talk about GOFUs? Because they are expensive lessons that you can learn for free, and then you don’t have to repeat those expensive lessons. Let me tell you something that I’ve seen a lot of again in the practice, and it keeps happening and happening. This is a little bit of a reverse GOFU, but it still qualifies, I believe. Because I don’t want to see you have the problem. Regardless of how serious the problem is or isn’t, I don’t want to see you have the problem. The issue is that police often do not know the laws. Police don’t know the laws. They’re trained to a certain degree, but honestly, they’re not up to speed on the gun laws the way my listeners of Gun

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Lawyer are. They just often don’t know, and they are often wrong. I see this all the time. So, I’m sure that you would prefer not to be a victim of an officer’s mistake. That would be the GOFU, right? You don’t want to have that happen to you.

Evan Nappen 34:22
Lately, I’ve had cases where an individual was stopped, and under Duty to Disclose, disclosed his concealed loaded handgun on his person that he was properly carrying, showed his carry permit, but the officer said, wait a minute. He read the law, and the law says you can’t have a gun while transporting in a car. They actually put the cuffs on. Then they called the higher up officer who seemingly confirmed it, and it was a big mess. Now, luckily, there were no charges here, but what a hassle and what a problem. And why didn’t the officer know? The officer didn’t know about the case law, about the law that the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs successfully fought, having that section declared unconstitutional. So, yeah, the law is there in the statute book, but it has an injunction on its enforcement, and the officer wasn’t aware of that. I have a suggestion. You should keep, if possible, a copy of my book and its updates in your car. Because if you get stopped and you have a problem, you can go to the source to the Bible of New Jersey Gun Law and say no, right here. Nappen says that is okay. Right there.

Evan Nappen 35:52
I’ll tell you what else I’m running into. Hollow nose ammunition. All the time. I get these calls all the time. Hollow nose. The police stop them. I’ve had actual false charges. Why? Very popular rounds such as Hornady Critical Duty, Critical Defense, etc. Well, I want to point out something else that you may want to keep a copy of with you in the car or in your carry lock box, just so you have it. Particularly, if you’re carrying that great defense load. Go to the State Police website, and they have an FAQ on firearms (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml) Question 13 on the New Jersey State Police website, an official statement by those empowered to make it. It is absolutely a defense at law to rely upon that. If you go to Question 13, what does it say? Question: “I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?” And right there it says the exemptions about where you can travel. Then it says, “Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornaday Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball, Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Inc. Defense ammunition.”

Evan Nappen 37:32
Hey, folks, not only do they make it clear, but they also even name the brands. So, if you have that ammo in your carry gun, which is all good stuff, factory defense loads, right there. Great stuff. Why not keep a copy of this FAQ by the New Jersey State Police? Keep it with my book and the updates. If you run into a problem, you can say, look, I have the documentation that it’s legal, right there. Don’t make a false arrest. Boom! You stop the problem before it escalates, and you will not be a GOFU.

Evan Nappen 38:12
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

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Speaker 3 38:20
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E200_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 199-How New Jersey Gabs GunsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 199SUMMARY KEYWORDS

guns, knife, new jersey, switchblade, otf, firearm, seized, law, fight, shoot, call, range, jersey, domestic violence, gun rights, tro, seizure, rights, part, blade

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:15
I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I’m going to dwell today in the area of how New Jersey grabs guns. How they basically steal your guns and gun rights right out from under you. I’ve seen case after case. By understanding the methods and the laws that New Jersey abuses to the fullest, you may be able to better protect yourself. Even if you’re thinking to yourself, hey, I don’t do anything that’s a problem. None of this that Nappen is talking about I would ever have anything to do with. Well, it doesn’t matter. Because if anyone in your household has any of these issues, everybody’s guns get seized. All the guns in the household get taken. Then you, as an innocent third party, you’re stuck having to fight to regain your guns and gun rights as the state claims that this problematic or prohibited person is in your household.

Evan Nappen 01:37
So, what are the primary methods that New Jersey employs to steal guns? To disenfranchise individuals of their gun rights, and to have a continuous every day all law enforcement taking these actions. One by one, taking people’s guns. And you never hear a peep about this in the Imperial Media, of course. But that’s why you listen to Gun Lawyer. So, I’m going to explain how this works. One of the main laws, there’s about three of them, and then we’ll talk about the fourth that isn’t even a law. The main law that gets heavily abused is the domestic abuse law. Now, domestic violence, domestic violence abuse, it’s a serious topic. It’s important that we address those incidents. I totally get that. Nothing I’m about to say is meant to belittle anything about the seriousness of domestic violence. However, the domestic violence laws in New Jersey are so broad and all-encompassing that it is extremely easy to get at least a Temporary Restraining Order filed.

Evan Nappen 03:17
With domestic violence, if an individual claims to be a victim of domestic violence and to be a victim, it’s statutorily defined as someone who’s a spouse, or someone who’s a household member, or someone who has a dating relationship with that person, etc., and that person makes a claim that a predicate act of domestic violence has occurred. This is basically the criminal code of laws, various offenses that are labeled as domestic violence offenses, when the alleged victim is someone in that category I just said. For a TRO to issue that person simply has to make essentially prima facie claim. You’re not involved in that. The other person is not involved in it. It’s done ex parte. They just tell the judge whatever story they want to tell. They could make up an utter and complete lie. And that often happens. We encounter

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that a lot, but it doesn’t matter. If they put forward that predicate act, and the predicate acts run the gamut from attempted murder all the way down to harassment.

Evan Nappen 04:49
Now, harassment in New Jersey is a crime, it isn’t a crime. New Jersey actually, technically, calls crimes felonies. But harassment as an offense is a petty disorderly person’s offense. The lowest level of criminal offense. The element of harassment is essentially doing something with the purpose to annoy. That’s essentially it. So, if any of you have ever annoyed your spouse or girlfriend, then arguably, you’ve committed harassment, and if they wanted to complain about it, they could at least get a TRO out of the box. Once that TRO issues, a Temporary Restraining Order, then as part of that Order, already preprinted on the form is a warrant to search and seize the guns of the defendant and anything that’s in the household where that defendant resides. So, we frequently get TROs that might be brought by a girlfriend of a son who’s living with the mother and father, and the mother’s and father’s guns get taken even though they had nothing to do with anything. It doesn’t matter. They all get seized. Of course, the defendant’s guns get seized. It doesn’t matter about how much of a lie may or may not have been told to get the TRO. All the guns get seized.

Evan Nappen 06:15
Then you’re going to have a Final Restraining Order hearing where they decide whether to make the TRO a FRO (Final Restraining Order). If it becomes a FRO, then you’re barred from having guns under both New Jersey law and Federal law. But even if the TRO gets dismissed, you still are going to have to fight to get your guns back. Because what comes next is a Weapons Forfeiture Hearing where they’re going to look at everything all over again. It doesn’t matter that the TRO was dismissed. They will look at anything else in your background and anything that may have been seized. And that’s an important point right there. Because I see often that individuals have something that might be viewed as contraband by New Jersey. Like you have a magazine that, instead of holding 10 rounds, may hold an extra bullet. You know it may hold 11 rounds. Oh, my God. If you have that magazine, you’re looking at a felony level offense, what New Jersey would call a crime of the Fourth Degree. You’re looking at a criminal charge facing up to 18 months in State Prison for your so-called large capacity magazine that we prefer to call a standard capacity magazine. That’s just one example.

Evan Nappen 07:26
So, what happens now is this. You’re an innocent third party. Your guns are seized, and the magazine is found. Maybe, let’s even say it’s in a handgun that you lawfully acquired with a pistol purchase permit before the law changed, and you didn’t remember that it held over 10 rounds as a standard mag that came with the gun. It doesn’t matter. Now you can face an escalation to criminal charges. They’ll use it to try to deny the return of your guns. They’ll use it to revoke your gun licenses, and they may use it to keep your firearms that they already have. So, this is where you see the escalation factor and the other problems that can ensue once there is any type of domestic violence TRO.

Evan Nappen 08:11
We get a lot of those cases. A lot of people end up having their guns seized by the Government, and we have a fight to try to get them back at the subsequent weapons forfeiture hearing. It’s very important that if you are the subject of domestic violence restraining order, that you fight it. Because if you get a

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FRO (Final Restraining Order), you become a prohibited person, essentially equivalent to a convicted felon. So, domestic violence seizures are one of the areas fraught with abuse that I encounter frequently.

Evan Nappen 08:48
The other method is what is called Red Flag. It’s not officially called Red Flag. Sometimes Red Flag is applied to any seizure. But what I’m talking about here is Extreme Risk Protection Orders. What we call ERPOs. It begins with a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order, which is a TERPO. Then, if it becomes final, it becomes a FERPO, a Final Extreme Risk Protection Order. It’s an ERPO that begins as a TERPO that can become a FERPO. And if it happens in Burlington County or Bergen County, you get a BERPO. I’m just kidding about the last part. But the procedures on Red Flag what happens again. This time it doesn’t have to be anybody defined specifically as a victim. It can be a neighbor. It can be somebody you just met. It could be the police themselves. Someone can simply make a claim, again ex parte, without you even being aware about anything, claiming that you’re somehow a danger to yourself or others, that you have a gun, and boom, a TERPO issues. Part and parcel of that will be another pre- printed warrant, and your guns will be seized. Anybody in the household, their guns will be seized, and we’re back to that same pattern of behavior. These pre-printed warrants are just offensive, frankly, to the Fourth Amendment. I mean, in New Jersey to get approval for seizing guns, it’s harder to get a sandwich at Wawa, than to have this happen. It’s just crazy how almost automatic the warrants are that are part of these orders as it gets issued on the seizure. Again, the same problems can ensue. It can escalate. You can lose your rights, even if you’re not the person who was a target of the original TERPO.

Evan Nappen 11:07
Then we have the third method, which is what we call Duty to Warn. Now Duty to Warn occurs where an individual makes any kind of statement to a medical professional. It could be a therapist, it could be a doctor, a nurse, etc, any type of statement about harming themselves or others. If they make that statement, then it is required for the medical professional to call the police. At which time the police will come, and they will not only take your guns away, but they then take you away. You get subject to an emergency medical evaluation. It’s kind of a variant on the Duty to Warn, is anybody who ever calls for a wellness check, if somebody calls for a wellness check on you, then you can expect the same type of Duty to Warn mechanism where the guns get seized. Then not only are you fighting for your freedom from being put in a mental institution, but you’re fighting to get your guns and your gun rights back. If you’re an innocent third party again in the same household, you’re going to be pulled right into it as well.

Evan Nappen 12:43
Then the fourth method of abuse, of seizure, of taking guns of New Jersey, stealing guns and gun rights, is where the police just decide to take your guns for so-called “safekeeping.” They’re not relying on any provisions in law. Basically, I call that the pulling it out of their ass basis, okay? Again, it doesn’t matter. Jersey likes to take guns and ask questions later. Oddly, if you’re subject to one of those “safekeeping” seizures, one of those statutorily baseless seizures, it’s often even more of a fight to get your guns back because there’s no statutory procedure. However lacking in due process this is, all of New Jersey’s procedures are, there’s no due process on that type of seizure. There are no laws on that

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type of seizure. So, we kind of have to force their hand in getting to court to regain your guns and your gun rights. Again, if you’re an innocent third party there, you get jammed up as well. You face the same risks and the same problems. This is how New Jersey is constantly seizing individual’s firearms and taking their gun rights, too.

Evan Nappen 14:14
So, you need to let your family members know that if police get contacted, and look, if police need to be contacted, they need to be. I’m not saying not to, if there’s a need to. But they need to know that it’s not something ever to be done lightly. I’ve had cases, many, where the person who calls only wanted to scare them, or I only wanted to help them, or even though it wasn’t serious or I was just nervous about him, or whatever the reason, it leads to this compounding. It can even lead to felony level criminal charges and prison. The effect has no bounds, depending on what the facts are after the seizure. Because of it and due to it.

Evan Nappen 15:03
Then many of these times, swattings can occur. The police are told there’s an armed individual who is a danger to himself and others, and they come there nervous. If I was law enforcement, I’d be nervous, too. You do not know who you’re dealing with. And unfortunately, innocent gun owners get shot. They get killed. These are on record of happening. They didn’t know who was coming to the door. They didn’t know who it was. They didn’t know what was going down. So, this really can create a lot of danger, and it does. But regardless, it’s dangerous to your rights. So, you want to make sure you’re aware of it and that your family members are aware of what happens. Every week I’m getting case after case after case, which initially started by these methods that I’ve just explained to you.

Evan Nappen 15:57
We are fighting these things, of course. We’re fighting it via our great state Association, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the state gun rights group in Jersey, the umbrella organization of gun clubs in New Jersey. You can be an individual member, and you need to be an individual member. They’re the ones in the courts fighting for our rights, fighting the Carry Killer law, fighting the assault firearm ban, fighting the large capacity magazine ban. They’re making progress. They’ve made significant progress. They’ve eliminated, so far, a number of sensitive places so we can protect ourselves and not be victims. We can be defenders instead. They’ve just taken a piece out of the assault firearm law with more to come. We’re seeing great progress. It’s a long slog, and it’s a big fight. We need your support. Make sure you’re a member. You’ll be advised as to what’s going on down in Trenton. They have a full time paid lobbyist. They’re there being vigilant for your rights. Join anjrpc.org today. Be part of the solution by being a member of your great gun rights organization.

Evan Nappen 17:14
If you’re looking for a place to shoot, there’s none better that I can recommend than WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. Very convenient, right off the Parkway. It’s a top of the line range. That’s where I shoot, and my family shoots. We love it there. They will treat you like family. They have great trainers. Great deals and gear and guns and ammo. Everything you need to set you up quite nicely to be able to shoot, to shoot proficiently. Be qualified. Get licensed, everything, soup

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to nuts. You can get it done at WeShoot. You can go to weshootusa.com. They have beautiful photographs. They pride themselves on that. Check out their website.

Evan Nappen 18:06
And you know, we’ve been following along with WeShoot and our connection there with Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, an Israeli IDF Master Sniper, created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. He’s an amazing hero of Israel in the fight against terrorism. Well, he has an amazing course, by the way, called Elite Marksman, where he teaches the IDF training for rifle. It’s a video, a very detailed video training course that you can watch and learn. You want to subscribe to that and get that course with all the great materials, plus the IDF targets he sends and everything else. He’s really great guy. I love Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. He just an amazing man. Remember to use the promo code, GUNLAWYER, all caps. GUNLAWYER. To get $100 off. He will be coming live, arrangements are being made as we speak through WeShoot. They’re gaining a rifle range to use, and if you’ve purchased that Elite Marksman course, you’ll be able to attend for free to Lieutenant Colonel Hartman’s in person course. He will train all of us directly. He’s going to enhance and refer to his program. You want to have that Elite Marksman course before you go, and he’s going to give us live training. I’m really looking forward to it. When I get the actual date, I will definitely let my listeners know about it. You can also go to weshootusa for more information on that as well. So, check it out at elitemarksman.com. These are great resources that I try to tip you off about.

Evan Nappen 20:11
Of course, the finest resource on New Jersey gun law, as I brag about it, is my book New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics, all in a question and answer format. It’s the guidebook, the handbook, the manual to stay out of trouble in New Jersey. There’s no other book like it at all, and it’s a labor of love. I put hundreds and hundreds of man hours into writing it, and I keep it up to date. It’ll be a great resource for you. You should all have a copy of it and keep it handy. You can go to EvanNappen.com. EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. You’ll see the big orange book there. Click it, and it’ll take you right to the page so you can order it. You’ll have it in a matter of days. When you get the book, scan the front cover there, the QR code. You can then subscribe for free to my database. I do not distribute that in any way. We put out updates, and you’ll have access to the archives of past updates. So, this way your book stays current. Make sure you get your copy. Talk to anybody that has a copy. They’ll tell you how much they use it. And when you get your copy, one rule, do not loan it out. Because if you do, you’ll never get it back. Boy, I hear that all the time.

Evan Nappen 21:40
Let’s take a look now at some letters. I really enjoy the letters. I love hearing from you folks. This one is from Marcus. Marcus says, regarding outdoor range. I’m an NRA instructor, and it’s getting very hard for me to qualify students at indoor ranges. I was thinking about buying a piece of property so I can train my students in live fire. I think you might say live fire outdoor. I cannot find any information. In which county or town would they let me do such a thing? Can you please point me in the right direction? So, this is tricky because of how the possession works. If you’re going to set up an actual target range, that might be one way, but it has to be arguably authorized. If you’re on your own property, you have an exemption to shoot there, as long as the town doesn’t have an ordinance

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prohibiting discharge. New Jersey State law doesn’t control ranges. It’s more of a town law. So, you want to check on discharge and all that.

Evan Nappen 23:03
Once you set up a range, now, if it’s a personal range, that just means it’s your own personal property. But if a student comes there with a firearm, are you operating it as a public range? Is it an authorized range under the statute? That becomes troublesome, you know, it becomes very fact sensitive. There really isn’t a great way here, unless you get your facts all in a row about the authorization of the range itself, unless you want to actually get a piece of property and get it approved officially by the town as an outdoor range. Now, one thing that may be helpful is this. Keep in mind, if you want to qualify, and we’re talking about CCARE, that can be done with air pistols. Now air pistols are still considered firearms. So, it would still be considered a firing range. However, if the town only prohibits firearms, and they have a town definition of a firearm, maybe it doesn’t include air guns. That’s something. Air guns are also a lot quieter than a powder type firearm that uses cartridges. So, that may be helpful, I don’t know, but it is difficult. This is one of the reasons why I push about people, our resources, with our ranges, particularly WeShoot, because it’s difficult to find places to shoot. I can sympathize, but the law is not very flexible. This is something that really needs to be addressed further by the legislature. But thanks for a great question, Marcus.

Evan Nappen 25:02
Here’s a question from Rich. Rich says, Hello, I listen to your show every week. That’s good as well. You should. Anyway, I have a question about informing a police officer of your Permit to Carry when pulled over. I’m a New Jersey Permit to Carry holder. I understand that a Permit to Carry holder must inform police and show them you have a permit and inform them that you have a concealed handgun if pulled over. Yes, that is correct. You must immediately do that. The question is, do I have to inform and show the police officer the permit if I’m not carrying the handgun with me on that particular day? The answer is no. You only have a Duty to Disclose if you have your handgun loaded, concealed on your person, properly carrying it, when you are pulled over. If you don’t have a gun, there’s nothing to disclose. The disclosure is to disclose that you’re carrying a gun. So, not a problem. There is no need to inform. Now, if you are transporting your gun to the range, not carrying it loaded concealed on your person, but have it cased, unloaded in your trunk or a lock box, etc, then you still have a Duty to Inform the police that you are transporting as well as carrying. If the gun is in your vehicle like that, you still have to tell them, if you have a Permit to Carry a handgun. If you do not have a Permit to Carry a handgun and you are transporting under the old exemptions, going to the target range with your cased and unloaded firearm, you have no obligation to disclose that you have the firearm. If you are carrying your gun illegally, you have no Duty to Disclose that you have a firearm. Only Permit to Carry holders have a Duty to Disclose whether they are carrying their handgun loaded concealed on the person, or whether they are transporting it. That’s how Duty to Disclose works.

Evan Nappen 27:22
I have another letter, and this one is from Jack. Jack is asking a question about one of my loves. I’m not talking about women. I only have one of those. That’s my wife. My other great love, and it says regarding knife laws. Hi, Evan. Question for you. Are switchblade OTF knives, OTF is short for Out The Front knives, legal to possess in your home as part of a collection in NJ without any intent to use for

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self-defense or any intention to carry? Can opening boxes and using it as a tool for everyday house repair tasks be considered a lawful purpose? If not, then how come these are being openly sold at gun shops and places like Home Depot?

Evan Nappen 28:12
So, the switchblade law in New Jersey is really quite a piece of work. I believe the switchblade law has a foot in the grave as far as it being even enforceable now, in light of the trilogy of Heller, Bruen, McDonald, etc, on our Constitutional rights. The problem is that switchblades, which an OTF does fall under that category of a switchblade, because the blade opens automatically by pressure to a button or other device in the handle of the knife, the law divides up. There is what we call the per se section under N.J.S. 2C:39-3, where you cannot possess unless you can. You have the burden of demonstrating that reason, that purpose, etc. They view those as per se prohibited. Switchblade, dagger, Dirk, stiletto, Ballistic Knife, etc. Even slingshot falls under that category. Yes, New Jersey makes possession of a slingshot a felony level offense. You’re looking at 18 months in State Prison for possessing a slingshot in New Jersey. So, Dennis the Menace and Bart Simpson are felons in New Jersey. They put switchblades in that category.

Evan Nappen 29:43
There is a defense built in, but the burden is on you. One thing for sure, you don’t want to be carrying your switchblade. At least until we get the case law finally killing off these idiotic archaic knife laws. There’s another section under 2C:39-5d. which is “other weapons.” That means everything else, not including firearms that are separately prohibited under 2C:39-5. So, 2C:39-5d., the “other weapons” section, also includes knives. But there is an exemption to 2C:39-5d. Under 2C:39-6.e., and all these will be linked on the website to these laws, by the way. Under 2C:39-6.e. possession in your home of “other weapons” and those firearms under the other subsections are exempted. So, the d. charge under 2C:39-5 has a home exemption for possession. The only possible charge for having it in your home is the 39-3 section charge of the per se.

Evan Nappen 31:05
Now, I’ve had a case where a guy had a $25,000 collection of modern automatics. By the way, switchblades are archaic even in the term, but it’s in our law, actually calling them switchblades. The modern term today is automatic knives. I had a guy with a collection of $25,000 in automatic knives, and I was able to show that he was a collector. He subscribed to Blade Magazine. He belonged to a knife collector club and an arms collector club. All these knives had significant collector value, either in their function, design or form, and we were able to show that his manifest lawful purpose was precisely that, collecting. I was able to get the criminal charges dismissed and actually got his collection returned. But even though that’s possible and can be done, I’m sure you don’t want to have to go through that mess. This is why I can’t just give you the green light on yes, you can possess them. Because when you do, you run the risk of having to fight that fight. So, keep that in mind.

Evan Nappen 32:12
Now, for the most part, a lot of the switchblade laws are not vigorously enforced in the United States. As a matter of fact, surprisingly and amazingly in the federal challenge to the Federal Switchblade Act, the actual defense that the U.S. Government used, that at the moment, was actually successful, which

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is just astounding, is saying, well, we don’t enforce the Federal Switchblade Act. (KnifeRights.org) So, this is a moot challenge. This case is not necessary because we don’t actually enforce it. The Court actually bought that. And I’m like, great. As long as they’re not enforcing a law, it stays on the books. Is that how it works? I mean, come on. But that’s still being fought. You can see that there is some reality to enforcement of knife laws. Normally in the world of knives, it’s not as vigorously enforced, but you still have a risk. You still have that risk. I’m not discounting that risk, but I normally don’t see it as aggressive.

Evan Nappen 33:17
Right now, the agenda is guns. Guns. They need to grab all the guns, and they’re working on it, as I’ve been explaining. Once they get rid of all the guns, then they can go after the knives. If you want to see that evolution, just look at the U.K. In the U.K., you see that’s exactly what happened once they stomped out everybody’s gun rights. Now it’s the entire anti-knife campaign, arresting people for knives. The Knife Act. You can’t have pointy kitchen knives. I had a guy at the Blade Show come up to me and said a cop confiscated his Swiss Army classic. The little, teeny Swiss Army that goes on a key ring because he was opening his mail with it in a coffee shop, if you can believe it. The cop said I could arrest you, you know, but instead, just he took it. How nice. He just confiscated his knife and left him with a warning. But this is what they’re dealing with in the UK, and we don’t need their nonsense coming here.

Evan Nappen 34:20
Here in America, we have Knife Rights (KnifeRights.org), which is a phenomenal knife rights organization. I’m counsel to Knife Rights, and they’ve got knife freedom laws passed across the U.S. It began in 2010 when we legalized and repealed all the knife laws in New Hampshire. Since then, many, many more states have done it. They’re challenging the Federal Switchblade Act. We need to repeal New Jersey’s idiotic knife laws, too. But, of course, with the politics in New Jersey, that’s going to be a bit before we can do that. But in the courts, progress is being made. I understand and appreciate your question, and I personally love OTF knives. I think it’s one of the best designs for a switchblade, because out the front is a very interesting knife. The blade stays fully contained in the handle, fully contained, so it’s protected. The spring is under no pressure until you actually use it. When you slide the button, that’s what actually, in some OTF designs, stretches the spring, and then it’s released, throwing the blade out. In other designs, the sliding of the button compresses the spring and then it’s released, throwing the blade out. Then the process is reversed, going backwards to throw the blade back into the handle. So, an OTF can sit in a closed position for years and years and years. The spring will never take a set because the spring is not being utilized until you’re actually running the OTF. That keeps the blade fully concealed so that it doesn’t get messed up, dinged up. You can effectively have a double edged knife because it’s completely covered. You can’t have a double edged knife on a folding knife because the sharp part will be sticking out. Only one edge gets protected by the handle of a knife in a folding knife, but in an OTF, the double edge is completely encapsulated and safe. So, there are a lot of advantages for OTFs, and they’re really a great design. And you know, some of the top makers are Microtech, Benchmade, Heretic, etc. The designs have just come so far, and they’re very exciting and very modern. If any of you ever watched John Wick, you see the effectiveness of OTFs, right?

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Evan Nappen 36:58
Hey, let me tell you the GOFU. This week’s GOFU, which is Gun Owner Fuck Up, and why do we talk about GOFUs? Because these are expensive lessons that you can learn for free and not repeat them. This week’s GOFU wraps right around to the beginning of the show and what the main topic of the show is. How New Jersey seizes guns. How they frequently do it. Their mechanisms for doing it. And if your guns get seized, the GOFU is if you anything that is a problem in your house, any of these things where Jersey has attempted to turn you into a criminal, whether it’s a magazine that holds more rounds, whether it’s some gun they’re intrinsically claiming is an evil black rifle with only one purpose, to kill hundreds of people. You know, whether it’s something that might have a stock that’s not approved, or maybe it doesn’t have a serial number. Oh, my God. You mean a privately made firearm, something Americans have been doing since before the country was a country? Yeah, you know, New Jersey turned that into a felony level offense as well. Then what you see is in the confiscation not only are your rights jeopardized and your ability to have guns jeopardize, but the GOFU is getting a further escalation to New Jersey’s serious gun laws. Even if they don’t criminally prosecute you, they will use the argument that you were in violation of New Jersey gun laws to disenfranchise you of your rights, to take away your guns and take away your rights. Beware, folks! Don’t make that GOFU.

Evan Nappen 38:49
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 38:57
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E199_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 198-When Your Lawyer SucksAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 198Gun Lawyer — Episode 198 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

court, due process, gun, case, lawyer, great, firearms, permit, denial, carry, state, dismissed, law, healthcare facility, lieutenant colonel, judge, hearing, petitioner, denied, raised

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Louis Nappen, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, today I have a guest on the show. One of my favorite guests to have on the show is my brother, Louis Nappen. Hi, Lou.

Louis Nappen 00:30 Hi. We meet again.

Evan Nappen 00:32
Yes. Lou, as many of you know, is also a gun lawyer. He works with me at the law firm, and Lou just had a nice win in the Appellate Division. This case is very interesting. There are some great lessons to learn here, some great takeaways, and we want to lay out for you what happened in this case. Now this case is called “In Re Application of A.J.J. for a Permit to Carry a handgun pursuant to N.J.S.A. 2C:58- 4.” That’s the actual title of the case. You can actually go online. If you go to our website with a transcript, we’ll have a link to the case if you want to see the actual case. (https://www.njcourts.gov/system/files/court-opinions/2024/a0493-22.pdf)

Evan Nappen 01:26
Louis, why don’t you lay out what happened here, some facts, and we’ll talk about the decision and what this case stands for. The takeaway, which in itself, is really this week’s GOFU. But go ahead.

Louis Nappen 01:42
Well, it is, and it isn’t. Yeah, it is, and it isn’t. Now, first off, I once again win for having a long title, a long caption for a case. Every time I seem to have the longest captions for cases in terms of what they’re titled. But this case is an interesting case from my point of view that I want to educate your audience a little bit about. Two things. One, due process. Due process. You hear that thrown around a lot. It’s in the Fifth Amendment. You always hear about the Fifth Amendment with other things. Due process essentially means that they can’t take away your life, liberty and property without due process. And what does that mean? Essentially, under the law, it means notice of what the issue is and opportunity to be heard. That’s your Fifth Amendment right in the federal context. Then they applied it also to the States under the 14th.

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Evan Nappen 02:39
So, there’s really fundamental fairness, right?

Louis Nappen 02:44
That’s right. Fundamental fairness is that they’re not going to have a full out hearing without knowing why you’re there, and then you have an opportunity to present your case. That’s the two aspects of that.

Evan Nappen 02:57
Right. And this, of course, is important when you’re dealing with hearings over licenses. Hearings for anything, even in criminal justice or in all the things we deal with all the time. Weapon forfeitures and what have you. In this case.

Louis Nappen 03:17
Anything, anytime you are in court.

Evan Nappen 03:18
In this case, what happened to AJJ?

Louis Nappen 03:23
Yeah, then there’s the second aspect of this which we’ll get into, which is, I think, equally important. It’s about effective assistance of counsel. So, let me tell you about AJJ here. Our firm did not handle this case at the trial level, at the Superior Court. And what happened is he was approved for a Permit to Carry from Patterson, I believe it was. The police chief approved him. But this case goes back to when it was the two part scenario. First you get approval or disapproval of the application.

Evan Nappen 04:04
Yes, this was the old law before the Carry Killer law, which got rid of judges. This is also a good example of why that was such a great idea to get rid of judges.

Louis Nappen 04:17
Correct. This really shows it. So, he was approved by the police chief, and then it went up to the Superior Court. Actually, the Assignment Judge of the Superior Court, one of the higher judges there. AJJ was calling up saying, I was told it was sent up. Where’s my carry permit? Because they were the issuing authority at that time. They said the judge wants to discuss with you regarding your permit. You know, that kind of a thing.

Evan Nappen 04:50
Okay, let me just say this. Anytime the court wants to talk to you, make sure you go there with a lawyer who knows what they’re doing. Do not walk into the lion’s den without an attorney. Period. But more than that, which this case is going to show, and you’ll get into it, your lawyer has to know what they’re doing. Go ahead.

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Louis Nappen 05:13
So, what’s interesting is, as you just said, AJJ is a listener of your show, and he heard you say, don’t go to court on a gun thing without a lawyer. Unfortunately, he didn’t hire us. He did hire a different attorney.

Evan Nappen 05:27 That’s a GOFU right there.

Louis Nappen 05:28
There’s a GOFU. So, he hired someone else. This is right from the decision. You’ll love this. In terms of the opinion, they put it in there. On August 29, 2022, the Petitioner appeared for a hearing before the trial court. When counsel entered an appearance for Petitioner, counsel told the court, and believe me, this was in my brief, exactly what happened in the transcript. “I happen to be on the sixth floor today, and they just assigned this to me.”

Louis Nappen 05:57
So, this council, I guess, his office just told him, you have this case. He comes down and says to the court, I’m here now. I just got assigned this case, and the state wasn’t even there. The state wasn’t there. No prosecutor was there. Now you didn’t have to have a prosecutor because they didn’t object to this application. Because this was going up on an approval. Okay, so a little bit about, a little background about AJJ here. So, he has multiple traffic violations. They made it out that he had many more than what I believe he had. The way that the system, when you get your readout of traffic. Now I didn’t represent them, and I would need to see all that.

Evan Nappen 06:46
Yeah, but this was not raised in the court below. None of it was raised. The guy just got assigned it. He walks in there, he walks in there, and it was already approved below. But what happens?

Louis Nappen 07:00
So, the court tells him, now let me say this. He has no juvenile delinquency issues, no convictions. He never had firearms seized from him before. No alcohol or mental health issues. He had all of his references, as I said, he got approved by the police chief. He’s there thinking, okay, the judge wants to maybe give me the hairy eyeball and approve this, and just say here’s your permit. No. So he’s there, and the court asks him if he’s received, asks the attorney if he received a copy of the state’s objection to the application. Counsel replied, no, I didn’t get that. The state had not provided the Petitioner with a copy of an objection. So, then the court provided him with the state’s objection letter. Meanwhile, the state wasn’t even present at the time. The court paused the proceeding for seven minutes so that he could see the objection.

Evan Nappen 08:04
Wait a minute. He was given an entire seven minutes to review the objection?

Louis Nappen 08:09 Right.

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Evan Nappen 08:10
That way, he had seven minutes to prepare defenses, research the law, talk to the client

Louis Nappen 08:17
Do you know how hard it is to talk in a confident manner in the court?

Evan Nappen 08:21
Seven whole minutes to do that, huh? Wow.

Louis Nappen 08:22
When the court resumed, counsel told the court he talked to him because he saw that he had a lot of tickets, but that he had paid them. He hadn’t had any tickets for many, for many years.

Evan Nappen 08:38
And his license wasn’t suspended.

Louis Nappen 08:41
No, his driver’s license was good.

Evan Nappen 08:44
He’s able to drive around town in a guided missile we call a car, but somehow, this is a problem. Go ahead.

Louis Nappen 08:49
So, the court asked the clerk for Petitioner’s drivers abstract and proceeded to go through his driver history. The hearing itself lasted 15 minutes, which includes the seven minute pause. So, eight minutes of hearing, the court then says, I find that in the interest of public health, safety, welfare, you should not be issued this carry permit. Now, remember, he already has a permit to purchase and a Firearms ID card. He got a handgun. He already has that, and he was approved by his police chief. By the way, they do not even ask about traffic on your application. There’s not a question on the form that says, do you have any traffic violations or DWI? Even DWI. They’re not asked.

Evan Nappen 09:41
You know they can do a full investigation.

Louis Nappen 09:44 Right.

Evan Nappen 09:44 But it’s not even asked.

Louis Nappen 09:46
Correct. It’s not even there. Then it says the fact that he had so many traffic tickets raises significant questions to his ability to comply with society’s rules and regs. Okay, he did also have some dismissed.

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Dismissed. So, in other words, he never had a hearing on them, or he did have a hearing and they were found unfounded. Dismissed restraining orders. Not final restraining orders, just temporary, and they got dismissed.

Evan Nappen 10:18
Now, remember, a temporary restraining order is done ex parte where one person just says whatever they’re going to say. And there’s no due process.

Evan Nappen 10:29
Not with the initial hearing.

Louis Nappen 10:29 None.

Louis Nappen 10:30 Right. You’re not there.

Evan Nappen 10:33
You’re not even there. And those got dismissed. They’re not a disqualifier at all.

Louis Nappen 10:39
Nothing. And they don’t have to be. Dismissed temporary restraining orders don’t have to be mentioned or even raised on the application. But that, in the court’s view, raised serious concerns regarding Petitioner’s ability to safely handle and use a handgun. I don’t know how that correlates, but that’s what they found. He was denied based on his driving history and the fact that he had dismissed TROs. Bingo, bango, done. He didn’t even know that this was a concern that the state had raised when he walked in, and he had all of 15 minutes, including a seven minute pause.

Evan Nappen 11:18
How did you win this appeal?

Louis Nappen 11:19
Okay, well, on appeal, as I normally do, I raised six points.

Evan Nappen 11:26
Well don’t go through them all. Just what was it that the court did? The main thing the appellate court did. What did the appellate court agree with you on?

Louis Nappen 11:33
That he did not receive due process, and that due process should have been afforded him. And I’m happy to say, was based on, was because of, I love that in my brief, I got to do this, citing my case before the Supreme Court that says you must provide due process by giving and telling an applicant if the court intends to deny this permit. You must inform him of the reasons why before the hearing and must provide an opportunity for him to explain.

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Evan Nappen 12:08
So, that case was the Carlton case, right?

Louis Nappen 12:13 Correct.

Evan Nappen 12:13
And that went all the way to the New Jersey Supreme Court.

Louis Nappen 12:18 That one did.

Evan Nappen 12:18
And that was a unanimous seven judge decision in the State of New Jersey. Imagine this, folks. Imagine this. A unanimous New Jersey Supreme Court found in favor of gun rights. Yeah, unanimously that even on gun permit hearings, we get due process. And Lou, you’re the guy that won that case and established that through our firm. You won it.

Evan Nappen 12:20
I like to say interestingly about it.

Evan Nappen 12:46
Again, you used it here to get this victory.

Louis Nappen 13:02
Correct. And what’s interesting about that, of course, is the statute doesn’t say you get that due process. The statute says you only get due process if you’re denied by your police chief. So, that is not due process. If you’re approved by your police chief but the court intends to deny it, you still get the due process of notice and opportunity to be heard. So, I raised, in addition to the due process aspect, of course, ineffective assistance of counsel, which I do not lightly raise. I believe in professional courtesy. Let lawyers handle their cases the way that they believe is the best way to handle it. I would have handled this differently and certainly would have said, I need more time to discuss this. Let’s adjourn this to another day so I can have the proper opportunity to review this with my client, at the very least. We shouldn’t have trial by surprise. We just shouldn’t.

Evan Nappen 13:58 Absolutely not. Trial by ambush.

Louis Nappen 14:00 Yeah, that’s right.

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Evan Nappen 14:02
You have a right to due process and to be able to have enough time to prepare. None of that was here. The Court recognized it as so fundamental a violation. And what is the outcome? What was the outcome?

Louis Nappen 14:18
So, the Appellate Court said that it was vacated. First off, they vacated it. The decision of that court was vacated. Done. It’s no longer the decision. And remanded. Now, interestingly, they remanded it back to the court where it came from, but that judge is no longer on the bench due to retirement. I don’t really have too much. This judge did this one wrong. I don’t hate this particular judge. I don’t have any ill will against this particular judge overall. I’m not going to name names, but in this particular case, I think he did wrong. Somebody could have a bad day and do something wrong.

Evan Nappen 14:57
The court seemed to agree with you and sent it back. But that means that the judge’s denial is reversed. So, now our client does not have a denial on his record.

Louis Nappen 15:12
That’s right, yeah. He would have to mention it every time.

Evan Nappen 15:16
For the rest of his life. Then they’d use it against him.

Louis Nappen 15:19
Especially in conjunction with, if you falsify, if you fail to mention it, you would be denied a permit because of that bright line rule that they did saying any false representation. You know that kind of thing if you know about it. They just say because you failed to mention a prior denial. But every application is looked at as new. So, it doesn’t make sense to me in that sense. But so be it. So, the bottom line.

Evan Nappen 15:42
Now we’re going to go back to the court and get this done properly.

Louis Nappen 15:46 Correct. It’s remanded.

Evan Nappen 15:50
That’s right. That’s what we need to do. To make sure that his rights to due process are vigorously enforced throughout because that’s the only way we do it.

Louis Nappen 16:00
And also, something else about our libertarian values here. In terms of one of my points that I raised, which the Court recognized, even though this was just about him having a bunch of traffic tickets and alleged dismissed TROs, temporary restraining orders, you’ll notice the name. The name of the case is AJJ. I made sure that his privacy was protected, and the Court recognized that as well, and named the

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court with initials. Nobody needs to know this guy had that in his history. It doesn’t need to be out there about him. But at the same time, he’s helping others by cases like this being published and fighting and not letting a denial stand.

Evan Nappen 16:38
Right and it’s instructive to others. It’s also instructive to other judges not to do this kind of thing. And remember, even though the law has changed to the new law, where the only time you’re going to go to court is if you’re denied, but on those denials, we still need vigorous due process so that we can fight to get your license if you are denied. The anti-gunners have put these vague things into the disqualifier. Such as public health, safety, welfare based on character and temperament, where they can look at your social media and things that you may have said. So, these become battlegrounds where you may have denials, and the fight needs to take place. Because the same criteria now to be approved for a carry license under 58-3 is the same criteria for an FID Card and a pistol purchase permit. So, if you get denied any one of those license, it can escalate to the revocation of the other licenses. Then they throw in taking your guns and trying to run a forfeiture. You’ve had great success on fighting those. So, this whole thing can escalate.

Louis Nappen 18:05
Whether you constitute some sort of danger, some sort of danger, and you get an extreme risk protection because of it, or something.

Evan Nappen 18:11 Exactly, yeah, exactly.

Louis Nappen 18:13
It’s very crazy. Well, there is an aspect to this I’d like to just mention. I think it was funny that on appeal, the state raised this. There is a little brief paragraph that’s in the decision that I did get a chuckle out of. It says we disagree with the states. This is we, meaning the court, the court disagrees with the state’s contention that Petitioner was accorded due process because the court paused the hearing so counsel and Petitioner could review the letter. In other words, we disagree that those seven minutes were enough. It says that did not cure the lack of opportunity for Petitioner to prepare for the court’s questioning on the particular objections and review any documents or provide documents on his own behalf. And that’s the key. But look how the state fought that saying, oh no, he had his seven minutes. What are you talking about?

Evan Nappen 19:04 Seven minutes, right?

Louis Nappen 19:07
You had your seven minutes with your attorney. But you didn’t have a chance to go home and find documents proving you paid those tickets.

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Evan Nappen 19:13
It’s crazy. Well, another win, another victory for you and the firm. We’re very proud of that. You did a great job. The client is very happy, and the fight continues.

Evan Nappen 19:28
Oh, yeah, I want to tell everyone about the WeShoot seminar with Lieutenant Hartman. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. As you may know, this is really cool, the original live seminar has been put off because Lieutenant Colonel Harmon is actually going to be teaching at an actual range. Teaching the course with live rifle fire. You will be able to train and be trained by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, who is, of course, the Master Sniper with the IDF. He created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. This man is an amazing guy, and they are going to announce shortly the new date for that. You can get his course, which I strongly suggest you get. It’s online, and then you can get that enhanced by going for the live seminar, which will be free as part of the course. You can find it at elitemarksman.com. If you put the promo code in GUNLAWYER, all caps, you get $100 off just for being a listener the show. Don’t forget the GUNLAWYER code. It’s elitemarksman.com.

Evan Nappen 20:59
You can go to WeShoot, to their website, weshootusa.com, for more information about this and for the updates. It’s very exciting. I’ll be there. I’m looking forward to it. It’s going to be great. And it’s so much better that we’re actually going to have actual training on the range by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. You definitely don’t want to miss that. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood. It is a fantastic place. It’s where I shoot. It’s where my brother, Lou, shoots, and where we both got our certificates. So, we got our carry out of WeShoot. So did my son and so many others. And you can too. We shot, we shot. We shot at WeShoot. And you can shoot at WeShoot. Go to weshootusa.com. Go visit them right there, easily, right off the Parkway. It’s a great resource and a great place. They’ll be able to take care of you there. No problem.

Evan Nappen 22:07
Now, last week, we talked about the victory on the AR-15 being found unconstitutional as it being banned. That fight is ongoing. That’s through our great Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They’re litigating the large capacity magazine ban and the Carry Killer bill with all the ridiculous sensitive places. They want to keep you as a victim instead of a defender. They’re going at the other unconstitutional and outrageous provisions of the law that was passed in a big hissy fit by the other side after the Bruen decision. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is on it and fighting. You need to be a member of your state Association. It’s the umbrella organization of gun clubs throughout New Jersey, and you can be an individual member. You should. You’ll get informed by email of the latest laws that they may be trying to pass, and actions you can take to help fight it. You’ll be helping in the litigation. You get a newsletter sent to you. The top gun rights newsletter in New Jersey. So, go to ANJRPC.org and join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. If you have my book, right on the back cover, is a big ad for the Association. It’s right there. There’s a reason I put it on the back cover. It’s that important. You need to be a member.

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Evan Nappen 23:44
It’s also important that you have my book. If you don’t have that book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law that I wrote for you. It is my labor of love. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition with over 120 topics explained in a question and answer format. The actual laws are also there in the back, so that you can actually almost understand New Jersey gun law when you have that book. It will help you tremendously. It’s used by the State Police Firearms Division. It’s used by lawyers and judges and most importantly, gun owners like you and me throughout the state. So, get your copy. Go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book there. Order it. You’ll have it in a matter of days. When you get the book, scan the front cover, scan that QR code, subscribe for free to my database, right there. I keep it private. I never distribute it. You will get updates from me, and you’ll know when the laws are changed. Any updates to the book. You get access to the archive of any of the updates that we’ve done so your book stays current.

Evan Nappen 24:58
Hey, I want to mention some interesting things that I’ve seen. You know, I end up looking at all the different aggregate websites of gun information. I’m constantly consuming these articles and such. When I see things that I find interesting, I always want to share them with you. There was an interesting article by Jennifer Sensiba, and it was called, “Why You Might See Swastikas At A Gun Show.” (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/why-you-might-see-swastikas-at-a-gun-show/)

Evan Nappen 25:35
I really think that it’s great that this article is out there, and I have a link to it on the website. The point that she’s making is an important one. The reason is not because of gun owners being Nazis, which is how the other side wants to portray it, but it’s about history. There are so many great collectible military from all different countries, all different wars. This is an area, and what the other side is trying to do is shut down an understanding of history. We cannot let that happen. You know, just because you may have a piece of military from the Third Reich doesn’t mean you support them at all. You may have something from the Vietnam War that was Chinese communist. It doesn’t mean you support them. You may have something from any adversary at any time. It is not that you subscribe to their political beliefs. As a matter of fact, I don’t subscribe to those political beliefs at all, but I love history. I love learning and understanding so that we don’t repeat it. By shutting it down and shutting it out, by making it taboo, it’s exactly what we should not do. As the other side tries to control our thoughts, control our speech, and rewrite history, we can’t let that happen. We’ve got to know history, understand it, the good and the bad. It’s critical. So, that’s why, hey, you might see a swastika at a gun show, and it is nothing to do with having any type of support for that political philosophy. It’s the opposite. You know, when our boys came back from fighting the war, they brought back war trophies, souvenirs that they took from the enemy. It’s a source of pride. That’s the same thing today. These are the equivalent of drinking from the skulls of your enemy, right? You have this stuff. They were defeated. It is history, and it stands for the victory. So, keep that in mind. It’s a very interesting article that you may want to check out on that topic.

Evan Nappen 28:09
Now, I received a letter. I love the letters that I get, and I appreciate when listeners send them. This is from Ken regarding selling firearms. Ken says, Evan, is it still legal to sell your firearms through an FFL

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with a NICS check to other individuals? I heard some stuff that they were trying to keep people from selling their firearms or severely limiting you in doing so.

Evan Nappen 28:36
The answer that is, yes, you can. You’re required to. If you’re going to sell a firearm, you have to go through a dealer. The only exception for a private sale is to your immediate family members. If it’s not to an immediate family member, then it has to go through an FFL. But it’s perfectly legal, and that, in fact, is the path for doing it by. You have to go through an FFL. It’s the legal method required unless it’s an immediate family member. But even if it is an immediate family member, you still have to do the paperwork. You just don’t have to go through a dealer. You need a Firearms ID card and Certificate of Eligibility on a long arm, or a pistol purchase permit for any handgun, etc. You still have to do the paper for the family member. You just don’t have to go through a dealer. But with anybody else, it has to go through a dealer. Thanks for your question. Ken.

Evan Nappen 29:37
Now, this letter is from David. David says regarding more fun with New Jersey’s crazy laws. Hi Evan, thanks for all the great content. Well, my pleasure. In my community, it’s not uncommon for people to have a small synagogue in some room of their home, and I’d like to understand how New Jersey’s crazy carry laws apply to the following complex setup. My neighbor’s home has a sun porch with an independent entrance from the side yard. Every Friday night, neighbors gather there for Sabbath services. The side door is unlocked, and the sun porch is, “open to the public”, in a sense that just like a stand-alone synagogue, there’s no requirement for membership or sign up or invitation to come to Sabbath services. Just walk in.

Evan Nappen 30:29
So, right away, if we’re looking at the private property exemption, then the sensitive place private property exemption makes it clear that if it’s private property, but it’s open to the public, then that’s not a sensitive place where it becomes prohibited. So, here being open to the public, it is okay. There is no sensitive place on houses of worship. House of worship is not a stand-alone sensitive place anyway. So, if it’s open to the public and it’s a house of worship, they’re not sensitive places. They’re not restricted so you don’t have a problem.

Evan Nappen 31:12
Then he goes on and says, to make it more interesting, my neighbor’s wife is a physical therapist, and her office is accessible from the garage entrance. If you walked from the sun porch to the den, you could then enter a physical therapy office, which is presumably a healthcare facility where carry is prohibited. If it matters, the facility is closed on the Sabbath and has by-appointment-only office hours. Can a PTC holder carry into a synagogue sunroom as a public place, or is the neighbor’s permission required? Does the attached physical therapy office matter?

Evan Nappen 31:45
As long as you are not going in the healthcare facility part, then that doesn’t make the other part a problem. Of course, it still could be a legal issue whether a physical therapist is, in fact, a healthcare facility. But just to err on the side of caution and assume it is, just do not go into the healthcare facility

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portion, because that’s how the sensitive places work. So, for example, you can’t carry at a dispensary, but if you go in, meaning a pharmacy, but if you go into CVS, as long as you don’t go to the pharmacy part, you’re okay. If you go into a mall and there’s a school in the mall, you can go in the mall, but not in the school part. So, this is the key and that’s how it works here on this complex issue. So, open to the public. No problem. Now, if you happen to get permission as well to carry, well, that’s even double coverage if it was ever claimed to be private property. Because private property, if you get the permission, that’s good too. But this is open to the public. So, in reality, the permission is not required under the sensitive place law.

Evan Nappen 33:09
There’s another letter on a similar basis from Michael regarding PTC to private school. He says, I have a PTC, and I own a trade school. I was told I cannot carry at my business because it is a school and furthermore, the landlord would have to allow if I was able to. So, is that accurate? Well, if the trade school is your place of business, then there is the place of business exemption under 39-6 that exempts the sensitive place right out of the box. Since it’s a place of business that you own, you’re exempted to carry at your place of business. Under the sensitive places, the school, if you have permission from the person who’s in charge, which is you, because you also own it, you’re okay there. So, you can carry in your place of business. I would assume and hope that you have some proof that it’s your place of business, maybe a lease, or other thing, that it is your place of business and such. But then, you fall under that exemption for the place of business, and that’s how it works.

Evan Nappen 34:32
Okay, this week’s GOFU. This week’s GOFU is a wraparound back to what we discussed at the beginning of the show. The GOFU is to make sure you have a gun lawyer when you’re dealing with a gun matter. Unfortunately, what AJJ had to go through here is because this attorney obviously didn’t know what they were doing, wasn’t prepared and went into this.

Louis Nappen 35:03
Where they didn’t object. Didn’t object.

Evan Nappen 35:08
Didn’t have a good objection. Talk about a GOFU. That’s the GOFU. So, make sure whatever legal subject you’re dealing with, that your lawyer knows that subject and is briefed, is immersed, and understands your case and is there, guarding and protecting your rights and standing up for your rights. Not just your Second Amendment rights, but your due process rights, to make sure there’s fundamental fairness in those hearings. Because without it, it can have dire ramifications. It can ruin your reputation. It can have escalation of further denials, etc. There’s a lot of consequences for that GOFU. Make sure your lawyer knows what they’re doing. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. And, Lou, thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3 36:20
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E198_TransciptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 197-Warning! Keystrokes are logged on all gun permit applications.Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 197SUMMARY KEYWORDS

law, firearm, unconstitutional, new jersey, new jersey’s, gun, colt, challenge, references, keystroke, guidelines, judge, jersey, decision, assault, ban, applications, listed, substantially, modern sporting rifle

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you know, I love doing this show. But this show is not just my voice, it’s also your voice. The reason I say that is I get a lot of great letters, emails, and such, from my beloved listeners. And I mean that sincerely. Often, these letters reveal things that need to be broadcast out to everybody, and it leads to discoveries of things that are just, oh, my God, kind of a moment. And that’s something I have to share with you today. Something extremely important that every New Jersey gun owner needs to know, and I bet you don’t know this. What I’m going to tell you, you do not know. Because even I didn’t know it, and I just live and breathe this stuff all day long. I didn’t know this, and it is a bit scary. It is yet another example of our loss of privacy and how Big Brother is spying on us. There are many lessons to take away from what I’m going to tell you next.

Evan Nappen 01:31
So, here is an excellent letter that I received from Greg. Basically, I’m just going to paraphrase. I’m just going to tell you what the story is. So, Greg applied for a PTC in Jersey, and one of his references was his buddy, Mike. What he did is what most of us do. You ask your friends to be references. When you do your application for your carry permit, you tell your references. You always want to make sure your references know. So, when you put in the app online, they’re ready to get the email, and they do the reference pretty quickly. Push the button and send it off. That way the references don’t delay you in the processing of your license. You always want to make sure in advance that your references are on your side and good to go because that can cause a problem.

Evan Nappen 02:43
Of course, one of his really great friends here was doing it, and he was absolutely 100 percent, no problem. But what happened was Mike, who basically wanted to play a practical joke, a prank on his good friend, which is something good friends do often. Right? Especially guys. Guy friends like to bust each other’s chops when they can and that’s all good. That’s what keeps a relationship, a good bromance together. Right? All good. So, what prank did Mike do? Well, what Mike did was when he got the reference email from the State, it asks, is there any reason why you would not endorse the above named firearms applicant to be issued a permit? He checked yes, and then where it said why? He wrote because he’s crazy. Then he took a picture of it with his cell phone so he could text that to his

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buddy, Greg. Then he wiped that out. He erased it. He erased it, and then put the no. There was no reason he wouldn’t and then submitted it with a positive supportive reference.

Evan Nappen 03:20
Well, lo and behold, Mike ends up getting a call about his unsubmitted answer. He gets a call from the authorities investigating it, and he tells him hey, it was a prank. And buddy, Greg, is like saying this person he knows. The police tell him that his keystrokes are logged so they had to investigate before approving the application. Folks, keep in mind, this is the big news. Anything you type when doing online applications to the Government, your keystrokes are logged. That’s right. Big Brother is watching your every keystroke, my friends, and I’m sure it’s not just on applications for a carry permit in New Jersey. Any of these online applications, especially anything you might deal with any agency in the Government. Keep in mind that your keystrokes are most likely being logged. This apparent report of the logged keystrokes was what the Government had, and they had to “investigate” over something that was not even submitted.

Evan Nappen 05:55
Yeah, it’s kind of scary stuff when you think about the intrusion and the overwatch taking place on us. So, it is really important to be vigilant and to know these things. To be aware. Knowledge is power. This is a knowledge element that I bet none of you knew, and now you do know it. So, keep it in mind. When you’re filling out any of these Government applications, don’t screw around. Don’t joke around. Make sure the information you’re putting in is exactly what you’re intending to submit. It probably pays to write out separately, completely separately, from your application. Probably on paper, like old school, what you’re going to say before you even type it to protect yourself. Because who knows what some Government bureaucrat may see and then misinterpret or take out of context, or who knows what. It’s easy enough just to have a typo, straight out have a typo, and then correct it. Now you’re subjected to what? Investigation. Put on a special list. Having licenses denied. Further investigated. Put in a big file. What? Who knows! But they’re watching you. New Jersey’s online gun permit application apparently has keystroke logging being done. It seems like it may be a privacy invasion, but then again, maybe not. I don’t know.

Evan Nappen 08:00
I couldn’t find anything specifically prohibiting this. I did see some case law that allowed it if one had, arguably, a warrant to place a keystroke logging device in somebody’s computer. And that’s kind of an older case. But now, when you just go online, the keystroke logging begins automatically? Shouldn’t we at least get a warning that all keystrokes are being logged? Shouldn’t it let you know? Like when you call a place and they say, “this phone call is being recorded so that we may improve our service to you.” You know, whatever the line they give, but at least they give you notice the line is being recorded, right? Shouldn’t there be a warning that keystroke logging is taking place on any kind of online submissions? You know, if you want to talk about new laws, if you want to talk about laws that can protect people, there’s a federal law that should be passed. I’m not one to push laws. We’ve got enough of them. But here’s one that can actually be useful to protect our privacy and require notice if there is keystroke logging taking place. So, you’re aware of that big eye watching you. I don’t know if that big eye is there in a pyramid or not. But sometimes you start worrying about it. I mean, it’s kind of crazy, right? But here you go. An actual case. An actual experience.

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Evan Nappen 09:39
It is Gun Lawyer that has the privilege of bringing it to all of your attention. Make sure your friends know about it as well, and they listen to the show. If you hear these kinds of things or have questions, I welcome you to send me those emails. I read them. Believe me, this is how this kind of information can get out there because the Imperial Lamestream Media won’t. They don’t want to let you know this stuff, but I want you to know it. So, keep that in mind and stay vigilant.

Evan Nappen 10:17
I want to give you an interesting update regarding Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman and him coming to WeShoot. Now, there is actually an exciting update regarding that Shooters Edge Seminar with Lieutenant Colonel Hartman who is the Master Sniper from the IDF (Israel Defense Forces). He created the entire Firearms Training Program for the IDF. An amazing man. Amazing things he’s done. Including making the cover of the Soldier of Fortune magazine. They’ve gotten a fantastic response to him. He was going to be coming on August 9 to talk to folks, and you could meet him live and ask questions. You know about the sign up and many of you signed up. Well, here’s what’s going to be happening. That August 9th date where he’s just going to be at the range, the indoor range, with him talking, that’s not going to happen. If you did sign up, then you know. You’ve got an email explaining this, but I want folks to know. Because what is going to be happening, and this is what’s exciting, is they’re looking now to get an outdoor range. I believe they have one to accommodate the needs for the class where Lieutenant Colonel Hartman will actually instruct in live fire,. So, you’re not just getting the benefit of his instruction. You will be there shooting rifles at the range with Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. Because of this, the seminar has been postponed, and the details are going to be out there shortly.

Evan Nappen 12:21
If you want to continue by the way of the online portion, you can still go to elitemarksman.com and use the GUNLAWYER code to still get that $100 off, and you’ll be able to attend that seminar. As soon as I get the dates and when it gets worked out, I’ll let you know. This way, it’ll be even better, even more exciting, even more fun, even more instructive. So, this is going to be what the next level is. If you are interested in this event, go to WeShoot’s website, weshootusa.com, and you can sign up there. You can get in on elitemarksman.com. Make sure you do. This is actually even better, and I’m sure not going to miss it. I wanted to make sure you’re aware of that. By the way, if you need a great place to shoot, go to WeShoot. It’s an indoor range right there in Lakewood, New Jersey. It is in Central Jersey, right off the Parkway. Easy to get to with great, wonderful staff. Great place. My highest recommendation. That’s where I shoot as well. Go to WeShootUSA.com. Check them out. Go to the website. You can get your CCARE training there to get your carry. You can get all kinds of great courses and have a real top of the line range experience. You can rent guns and introduce others to shooting. Great place. A great resource. WeShootUSA.com.

Evan Nappen 14:18
Now, we’re going to be talking later in the show about a really interesting case that was fought by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They were a participant in the recent decision that has created a Constitutional challenge that was successful as to AR-15s. I’m going to give you the details about how. This is just the first battle, by the way, folks. The state Association is there litigating in

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federal court on your behalf, on our behalf, challenging New Jersey’s idiotic, modern sporting rifle ban that they statutorily call an “Assault Firearm”, which is just a pejorative bullshit term for firearms that have been around for over 100 years. They’re also challenging the large capacity magazine ban which was also in the battle in this decision. We’ll talk about that, too. They’re challenging the Carry Killer Law, creating all these sensitive places and trying to eviscerate our ability to carry a handgun, even though we can get our carry permits now. It is a shall issue. It only took over 50 years for New Jersey, kicking and screaming, to finally have to issue them so that we no longer have to be victims, but can, in fact, be defenders. That fight is also continuing. So, you really need to be a member of the state Association. It’s anjrpc.org. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the NRA affiliate, and they are the umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in New Jersey. You can be an individual member, and you should be. Because not only will you be helping in the cause, but also you’ll be getting the email updates. You’ll know what’s going on down in Trenton and in the courts. You get a great printed newsletter. The best in the state on Jersey gun rights. And you’ll know that you’re part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 16:31
Additionally, you should have my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s the book used by everybody that wants to know about Jersey gun law, from the State Police Firearms Division down to the average gun owner. We’ve sold thousands and thousands of copies. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. The reason it’s so popular is it’s the only book that is out there to gives Q & A explanation of over 120 topics, in a question and answer format. New Jersey gun laws explained. Good luck trying to find a real good explanation of Jersey gun laws. But luckily, my book is there and that’s what it does. So, you need to get a copy of it. When you get your copy, scan the front QR code. Make sure you do that because you will, for free, be able to subscribe for the updates. And I don’t do anything else with that list. It stays private. But you’ll get updates and be able to access, for free, the archives. This is a free thing. It’s free to get the updates and free to access the archives, so that way your book stays current. So, if you want to get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law, which you should have, go to EvanNappen.com. My website, EvanNappen.com. When you go there, you’ll see the big orange book. Click it to order your book, and you’ll have it in a matter of days.

Evan Nappen 18:01
So, let’s talk about this amazing decision by the Federal Court on AR-15s. ANJRPC v. Platkin (https://reason.com/2024/08/01/a-federal-judge-reluctantly-concludes-that-new-jerseys-ar-15-ban-is- unconstitutional/) Now, keep in mind, the entire so-called “Assault Firearm” statute was challenged in federal court, and it’s been a lengthy battle. It’s gone up to the Supreme Court. Bruen came about in between, and it was remanded back down. There was then discovery that delayed the case. Finally, finally, we get that lower court decision, which is, of course, just the first battle in the war going forward. But this first decision, which is currently stayed for 30 days pending an appeal, the stay means it’s not effective yet, but it might become effective if the stay is not continued. But the bottom line is this. The Federal judge ruled that New Jersey’s AR-15 ban is unconstitutional. That’s right. The first crack in New Jersey’s idiotic, modern sporting rifle ban has taken place. Because even this judge, who in the opinion makes it clear that he has no love for modern sporting rifles, admits he is constrained by the Supreme Court’s decision in whether or not such a law is Constitutional. So, this is now going to continue in the

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challenge. We need the entire “Assault Firearm” law found unconstitutional because it is. This is progress.

Evan Nappen 19:57
Now, in the same decision, he denied that the large capacity magazine, what we call the standard capacity magazine, prohibition is unconstitutional. We flat out believe that he’s wrong and that part of his decision was just mistaken. That’s why the appeal is ongoing. We’re looking to expand on the success and reverse on the denial of the magazine challenge. We have excellent grounds, legal argument. As we start getting higher and higher in the chain, it means that New Jersey’s “Assault Firearm” ban, and large capacity ban have one foot in the grave. I know in my heart that when it eventually reaches the Supreme Court, no way will it stand up as Constitutional. But until then, the battle ensues.

Evan Nappen 21:09
Certain questions have arisen from the judge’s decision. On one hand, it seems like he only legalized, so to speak, Colt AR-15s. Yet, he references through the opinion AR-15s. I want to explain to you what my view is here. Now, I want you to know that this is my view. It is how I’m going to be using it and approaching it in all the battles we have ongoing with clients criminally charged with AR-15s. Having their licenses and their gun rights revoked because they had AR-15s and all that. It is extremely useful, and we’re going to be going at it. I honestly cannot see how it can only be limited to the Colt AR-15. Let me tell you why.

Evan Nappen 22:11
Let me explain it. So, keep in mind New Jersey’s “Assault Firearm” law was passed in 1990, and it became effective in 1991. When it became effective, there were five parts to the definition of “Assault Firearm”. It’s actually one of the most poorly written definitions in criminal law anywhere, anywhere. It’s just so absurd how open ended and ridiculous it was. Early on, I had a case. The name of the case was Merrill. Mr. Merrill was charged under the assault firearm law with having an MAK-90. This was in Monmouth County, and I brought a challenge on his criminal charge, alleging that it was unconstitutional. This was back in the early ’90s. Pretty early after the law had come in. It was after the 1994 Crime Bill – Federal.

Evan Nappen 23:25
I argued to the court, not the Second Amendment at that time, because we didn’t have all the case law in the Supreme Court. We didn’t have Heller. We didn’t have McDonald, and we didn’t have Bruen. What we had was a lousy case where it was decided that the Second Amendment had no application to New Jersey. It was Burton versus Sills. However, I approached it from another avenue. I said that the law was unconstitutionally vague and overbroad because of the second part of the law, which was the “substantially identical” section. The first part is a laundry list about 67 individual guns, but the second part is any gun that is “substantially identical” to the above. The late great Judge Michael Farren in Monmouth County found that it was unconstitutional because a citizen could not know what substantially identical means. The words themselves are contradictory. Substantially means almost, and identical means exact. How can it be almost exact? It’s either exact or not. Even if we somehow try to interpret what guns are banned and what aren’t, it didn’t make any sense for anyone to be able to try

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to know how to conform their behavior so they wouldn’t be in trouble criminally and that makes a law unconstitutional. So, after I won that case, a gun group brought a challenge federally to try to annihilate the entire law based on how I’d won it in the criminal court. In that case, that’s when the Attorney General promulgated in 1996 guidelines to try to save the statute by saying what “substantially identical” means, by way the 1996 guidelines.

Evan Nappen 25:10
This is where it gets very interesting. You see, the Court, through its opinion, does say that the AR-15 is produced by several different manufacturers including FN, Ruger, Remington, Bushmaster, Rock River Arms, Wilson Combat, Barrett, Panther Arms, H&K, Lewis Machine, Olympic Arms, Palmetto State Armory, and Mossberg. Of course, even Smith and Wesson, but he failed to mention that and plenty of others. So, the judge said that the AR-15 provision itself is unconstitutional. Then he goes on and says that it’s essentially the Colt AR-15.

Evan Nappen 25:56
I’m going to read you the exact language in a moment. (U.S. District) Judge (Peter) Sheridan does find that the AR-15 qualifies as a weapon in common use. This is one of the things you have to establish. It’s in common use for lawful purposes like self-defense. That’s what Bruen said is covered and Heller. The judge said the plaintiffs have shown that AR-15s are well adapted for self-defense. He made it clear about the evidence being presented and that the AR-15 was well suited to self-defense. This is from the decision. Because it is light weight. It further goes on and says it has mild recoil, good ergonomics. It’s a weapon that is well suited to younger shooters, female shooters, and other shooters of a smaller statue. He talks further about it being a weapon of self-defense, which it is, and even brings out how it was used in several relatively high profile self-defense, self-defense events in Florida, Illinois, Texas, Pennsylvania and Oklahoma. So, it meets that part of the standard. And that’s not just Colt AR- 15s. That’s a whole variety of ARs.

Evan Nappen 27:21
He says, therefore, that the assault firearm law, the AR-15 provision, acts as a total prohibition of this firearm commonly used for self-defense, which are AR-15s in the home. And that’s all great stuff. But when you get into the decision itself, which you can see online, you’ll see that right away. (https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.anjrpc.org/resource/resmgr/legal_motions___briefs/doc_228_mag_aw_o pinion.pdf) It says, and I’ll read you right from decision. “For these reasons and those below, the AR-15 Provision of Assault Firearm Law is unconstitutional.” It’s right out of the box on Page Four of the decision. Right in the beginning, he makes it clear. Then he says on Page 6, “For the reasons enumerated below, the AR 15 Provision is unconstitutional.” He refers to the AR-15 throughout it.

Evan Nappen 28:19
Then, he says, “Relevant to the analysis here is the provision within the Assault Firearm Law regulating the ‘Colt AR-15″ (hereinafter, the AR-15 Provision).” (Page 7 of the decision) Then he puts a footnote though. He says, “For the reasons enumerated above, the Court limits its analysis of the constitutionality of N.J. Stat. Ann. 2C:39-1(w)(1) to the information that has been briefed.” The definitional part under (1)(w) where it has a laundry list of guns. In that laundry list of guns, when you

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actually look at the law under that section, you see it says “Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series”. The judge doesn’t even deal with the CAR thing. He doesn’t know what it is, and he doesn’t want to get into it.

Evan Nappen 29:19
Therefore, some folks are saying well, is it just narrowly the (w)(1) provision, where it’s just Colt AR-15 and not all AR-15s? Even though the judge is talking broadly throughout his opinion on it. I’m going to tell you here’s how I interpret it. The Colt AR-15 is on the list as a listed gun with a named manufacturer. That’s correct. It’s there. That’s not in dispute. But you see, part (2) of the law, (w)(2) says, now the judge didn’t get into (w)(2) per se, but you can’t not get into (w)(2) once you have this ruling, because (w)(2) of New Jersey’s definition says, “Any firearm manufactured under any designation which is substantially identical to any of the firearms listed above.” And that was the original question that I dealt with in State v. Merrill. What the hell does that even mean? What is substantially identical? To what? Well, it’s to any of the firearms listed above.

Evan Nappen 30:40
Oh, so first of all, they have to be substantially identical to what? Firearm listed above. What is the firearm listed above when dealing with an AR-15 that you’re claiming is “substantially identical” to? Well, the Colt AR-15, of course. As I’m sure you know, the AR in AR-15 stands for “ArmaLite Rifle”. ArmaLite. Not assault rifle, like the dummies on the other side love to call it. No, no. Why ArmaLite? Because they developed it. Stoner ArmaLite. They developed it, and Colt got it. Colt AR-15. It was their manufacturer of the AR-15, of the ArmaLite Rifle-15. Now, that’s the law part of the statute, where it talks about the guns that are “listed above”.

Evan Nappen 31:50
But then, going back to the Merrill challenge, which was successful, and then Coalition V. Whitman where the big challenge to try to knock it out in federal court is based on the theory I utilized in Merrill. Then the Attorney General came in with the 1996 Guidelines to save the constitutionality. (https://www.nj.gov/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm) Those Guidelines are what we’ve been living under. And it’s those Guidelines, where we come up with, where most people say, is that gun Jersey compliant? Does it have any of those offending features? Well, that’s coming from the Guidelines.

Evan Nappen 32:33
What do the Guidelines say when having to make that determination? It says, right there in the Guidelines (on Page 2), before you get to the specific offending features, “A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be ‘substantially identical,’ that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon . . .” That’s right in the guidelines, folks. A named assault weapon. “. . . if it meets the below listed criteria:” Aha. So, the statute under (w)(2) talks about “guns listed above.” The so-called Guidelines that were pulled out of the Attorney General’s ass and turned into a regulation to save the constitutionality says, it has to be a “named assault weapon.”

Evan Nappen 33:32
And what criteria did the Attorney General adopt? Where did these features come from? Well, they’re nowhere to be found in New Jersey’s actual law. Oh, God forbid, no. He gleaned them, verbatim, from the 1994 Federal Crime Bill definition of assault weapon, which is no longer on the books. It’s sunset. It

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went away in 2004. It was for ten years. That’s 1994 to 2004. Those are the very criteria that is no longer federal law and was not State law. Never has been. Remember, our assault firearm law passed in 1990. The Federal criteria that he’s using in the Guidelines didn’t even come about until 1994. So, you’re telling me that somehow our legislators had like crystal balls, and they knew that their unconstitutionally vague definition would be saved by a Federal law that would be passed four years later? I don’t think so. But it doesn’t matter because you know what? The Court bought it and said, okay, now we know what substantially identical means, and this is what it means. All right.

Evan Nappen 34:52
Well, if these Guidelines are what control, then it says it has to be a named firearm before we apply the offending features. I’m sure you know them by now, but I’ll review them with you. A folding stock or telescoping stock, a pistol grip, a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel, or a grenade launcher. I know all of you removed your grenade launchers from your assault firearm. So, I’m glad to hear that. But here’s the deal, folks. What applies to those criteria? Well, first, it has to be a semi- automatic firearm that has a detachable magazine and at least two of what I just told you. And what semi-automatic rifle? Aah, a “named assault weapon”. If the Government is saying that they’re “named assault weapon” is the only AR there, the AR, the classic of all classics, the Colt AR-15, well, guess what? That’s unconstitutional.

Evan Nappen 36:07
So, these are the battles that we’re going to have. Look, this has not been fully decided yet. This is not something you can say, hey, great, I can have an AR-15 now in New Jersey. No, you can’t do that yet. But I’m telling you how the groundwork has been laid. I’m showing you the issues and the arguments that we’re going to use, and more than what I’ve even told you, of course, is going to be used. But I’m laying out to you a very clear methodology here to see the crack in the armor of New Jersey’s absurd gun law that has turned thousands of law-abiding citizens into criminals. Ruined their lives. Destroyed them, their families, their fortunes, their freedom, and taken away their rights over a law that is absolute bullshit. Because a gun is a gun. And this is just stupid. Trying to distinguish it by some features is just a ploy, a salami tactic, to take rights, and do it one slice at a time. To try to boogeyman all black rifles. That’s what they do. That’s going to end. We’ve made substantial progress toward that end. And that, my friend, makes me very happy.

Evan Nappen 37:50
I have a question here really quick. It says, as a member of CJ rifle and pistol club, I occasionally take my 2020 NJ legal AR style rifle to the range. Is this gun still legal? Are there any semi-automatic rifles still legal in Jersey? Then he wants to know if we can get an addendum to the book. Well, of course, you get an addendum to the book. By going and scanning the front cover of the new book. And that’s where you get all the updates. Of course, you can take your “legal” AR to the range, because it’s Jersey legal. Transport it legally, take it to the range, and enjoy it. Shortly, we’ll be able to take guns that at the moment are not legal. I’m confident we will win this battle, fighting side by side with our brothers and sisters. So, this has been an interesting week to say the least.

Evan Nappen 38:55

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I want to tell you this week’s GOFU, and this week’s GOFU is a wraparound right to what we spoke about in the beginning of the show. Don’t mess around on your gun applications. As much as I like good jokes played on me by my good friends, and I get it. But it’s serious stuff with the gun licensing and the gun laws in New Jersey. Luckily, in this case, the individual got his carry, but what a hassle. What a problem. What a mess. So, the GOFU is take it seriously. Treat it seriously. You don’t want to cause complications for yourself or one of your best buddies, do you? So, it officially is a GOFU, but I will say that because of it, we did discover some truths here that we didn’t know. And that’s really the purpose of a GOFU. Don’t repeat mistakes that others have made. Learn from them, folks. This time we all learned from that GOFU. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 40:19
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E197_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

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Episode 196-The US Secret Service Could Not Get an NJ Carry PermitAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 196SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, new jersey, law, place, carry permit, shot, requirements, handgun, secret service, rifle, foo, program, guns, firearm, book, bolt action rifle, idf, gun laws, political assassinations, revolver

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I’m sure you’ve been watching the news and following closely. I know I have. All the developments on the attempted assassination of President Trump. Of course, there’s lots of commentary and a severe lack of information out there, and it just makes the conspiracy theories run wild. It gets you thinking about all kinds of things. But I do want to point out some things that are in my wheelhouse that I’ve noticed, and things that I think my listeners of Gun Lawyer would appreciate.

Evan Nappen 01:04
First of all, I’d like to state that it appears that the Secret Service would not qualify to get a New Jersey carry permit. Why am I saying that? Well, if you watched the video of the female Secret Service Agent who could not reholster her handgun, it was embarrassing, to say the least. I mean, folks, I can take my handgun in and out of my holster all day long without looking, and I bet you can too. The fact is that in order to get a carry permit in New Jersey under Murphy’s Carry Killer law, remember you had to have certain training and that training originated as the John Wick training standards. That’s what we called it. Then we were able to get out of the Attorney General an agreement that focused on core competency that we call CCARE. Now the CCARE standard, actually CCARE, people ask what does it mean? It stands for Civilian Carry Assessment and Range Evaluation. So, you need to have your CCARE certification. But what are the requirements for CCARE for any civilian gun owner in New Jersey who wishes a carry permit? Well, the CCARE requirements are actually quite simple, quite direct, and something that any competent shooter should be able to demonstrate, and we’ve discussed it on the show.

Evan Nappen 02:51
But I want to review for you some of the key requirements of CCARE that would disqualify that Secret Service Agent which we all can watch on YouTube, on Facebook, on TikTok, all over. Watch that clip of whoever that woman is whose name has not been disclosed, who cannot reholster her gun, and why is that something? Well, one of the requirements under CCARE, and you can go right to the State Police website to download the qualification that you have to meet for the course. (https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/pdf/CCARE_Protocol.pdf) Under 4. Course, Subsection d., it says, “To achieve a passing score of 80%, the participant must place a minimum of 40 shots within the border of a Q target silhouette during the untimed course of fire. The participant must also demonstrate safe

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handling throughout, including safe loading, unloading, drawing, and re-holstering.” Re-holstering is a requirement of CCARE. If you watch the video, that Secret Service Agent would not pass. It further states that, “i. On command, from a secured and concealed holster position, draw and fire five rounds. Holster a safe, decocked, if applicable, weapon.” Aaannnnttt. Secret Service fail. Then you repeat the string of fire twice, firing a total of 10 rounds. Reload if required and holster a safe, decocked, if applicable, weapon. At the end of the course of fire, clear all weapons, and holster a safe and empty weapon.

Evan Nappen 04:53
Oh, boy. So much for Secret Service qualifying for a civilian carry permit under New Jersey’s requirements. New Jersey even goes further and says you can have a substantially equivalent course, and it describes what that is. Under 5. Substantially Equivalent Courses, subsection d., it says. “The participant must demonstrate safe holstering and unholstering . . . ” You’ve got to do both during the shooting course. “. . . which must include safely drawing the weapon from a secured holster before firing at each of the required distances and re-holstering after completing the round.” So, as you can see, stressed throughout the CCARE is a requirement that the Secret Service Agent could not accomplish. Heh, that’s a real confidence builder, when it comes to protecting those folks that they’re assigned to protect, isn’t it? Oh, my God! It’s absolutely embarrassing. Embarrassing and it is something that just removes the confidence and faith that we might have in those folks who are assigned that critical task of protection.

Evan Nappen 06:34
So, there you go, but it doesn’t end there with some of the fallout from the attempted assassination. And that’s because the Democrats, and that’s who it is, it’s always Democrats. The Democrats have to do their blood dance anytime. You know their motto – let no tragedy go to waste. They start their blood dance, and there it was, in the hearing with the head of the Secret Service. Are they questioning about what the Secret Service did? Where the failures were? What needs to be improved? Did they get any real information out of that Secret Service Director? No, but it was used to grandstand on gun control, quote an assault firearm ban. That’s right. Never miss the opportunity.

Evan Nappen 07:36
For example, the Maryland Democrat Jamie Raskin decided to make this about a promotion of banning so-called assault weapons. Assault weapons. He used an AR-15. Oh, my God. One of those dreaded black guns with only one purpose — to kill hundreds of people. And, man, if we just ban those ARS, we’ll stop political assassinations, right? This scourge is a problem. It wasn’t the Secret Service’s fault. It’s not the fault of the agencies there who failed to stop this shooter. Failed to keep President Trump off the stage when they knew about somebody suspicious. Just because they saw somebody with a rifle. Just because their communication sucked. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s the AR-15, you see. And, of course, that’s how they have to push it. Even though according to FBIs own statistics, only 3% of all gun related homicides involve rifles of any kind, of any kind. But here what are we talking about? An attempted political assassination. So, hey, we must have quite a history of attempted and even successful political assassinations using semi-automatic rifles, right? So-called assault weapons, which are really nothing more than modern sporting rifles. But the antis never miss that opportunity to do their blood dance, to take advantage of the tragedy.

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Evan Nappen 09:45
Why don’t we take a little historical stroll through some of the most famous political assassinations and attempted assassinations? And let’s see what guns they used. Let’s start with a famous one. John F. Kennedy, right? The Kennedy Assassination. Lee Harvey Oswald. Now I know all the conspiracy theories, and we don’t have to get into grassy knolls and all that stuff. Basically, the understanding is that the bullet that killed Kennedy came from a bolt action rifle, an Italian Carcano of World War Two origin. Did you ever shoot a Carcano? I have Carcanos and let me just say something. I love Italian guns. Some of the finest shotguns, my Perazzi Italian shotgun is just magnificent craftsmanship. Berettas are just phenomenal guns. You look at all these wonderful Italian guns, and you can’t believe that they made the Carcano. Honestly, folks, it is one clunky bolt action rifle that I can’t imagine how that even came to be their gun. It is just not what you associate with fine Italian firearms. Let’s put it that way. That Carcano bolt action rifle is what Oswald allegedly used to get off three shots, which ended up killing President Kennedy. Not a semi-auto rifle.

Evan Nappen 11:36
How about Abraham Lincoln? What was Lincoln shot with? Was he shot with a semi auto? Was he even shot with a rifle by John Wilkes Booth? No. No, he was shot with a Deringer. Actually, the Deringer. The Henry Deringer of Deringers. The gun that’s named by the maker. Lincoln was shot in the head with a Deringer. Not a semi-auto. Not a rifle, but a handgun. A single shot, percussion, handgun. Okay, how about Martin Luther King? Martin Luther King was shot by James Earl Ray in 1968. Hey, there were lots of semi-auto rifles around in ’68, Carbines and M1 Garands. You name it, all out there. What was Martin Luther King assassinated with? A Remington 760 pump action .30-06. The classic deer rifle. That’s right. A classic deer rifle killed Martin Luther King.

Evan Nappen 12:46
Hey, let’s go way back to probably one of the most significant political assassinations in world history. That would be the Archduke Franz Ferdinand. He was shot by Gavrilo Princip, and what did Gavrilo shoot the Archduke with? Remember, this is the assassination that led to World War One, which itself led to World War Two. Was a semi-auto rifle used then in 1914? As a matter of fact, the date of that assassination is the exact date of this show, 90 years ago, June 28, 1914. What gun was used? A handgun. A FN Model 1910 in .380. That’s right. The handgun that essentially started World War One. How about Mahatma Ghandi? What was Gandhi shot with? He was shot with a Beretta, the Model 1934. The military handgun of the Italian Army. Germans even used some of them as well. It was a .380 handgun that killed Gandhi.

Evan Nappen 14:22
How about going back to America? Let’s look at some more President. How about President William McKinley? William McKinley was assassinated in 1901 by Leon Czolgosz. That’s right. Guess what Czolgosz shot and killed William McKinley with in Buffalo, New York, 1901? It led to Theodore Roosevelt becoming President. He used an Iver Johnson .32 revolver. That’s right. A .32 revolver handgun killed President William McKinley. What about President James Garfield? Garfield was shot by Charles Guiteau. He was hit twice by Guiteau. What did Guiteau use to assassinate President Garfield? Well, he used a Belgian made .44 caliber Bulldog revolver. I kid you not. A .44 Bulldog

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handgun, a revolver. How about a little more modern time? Well, how about Robert Kennedy? What was Robert Kennedy killed with? Well, Sirhan Sirhan shot him with an eight shot .22 Long Rifle Iver Johnson handgun. The Cadet model 55-A revolver. How about the attempted assassination of President Ronald Reagan? What did John Hinckley use? He used one of the cheapest revolvers ever made. A Rhom RG-14 .22 rimfire long rifle. The same caliber as Robert Kennedy’s assassin used. Do you know what Hinckley fired? He fired six shots out of a .22 revolver in 1.7 seconds. 1.7 seconds, six shots, .22.

Evan Nappen 16:39
When you look at any of the political assassinations or attempted political assassinations, guess what’s never been used before? A so-called assault firearm and never before an AR-15. But you see, the Democrats believe that this is the moment to demand an assault firearm ban because of the attempted assassination of President Trump. You know their propaganda. It just never ends. And it’s just so disgusting. Gun control, the last refuge of a scoundrel, and they are scoundrels. They just gaslight us and obscure and obstruct and divert. Man, it gets a little tiring at times, and I’m sure you’re tired of it as well.

Evan Nappen 17:40
Well, here’s something not to be tired about. And that is, there’s still time. There’s still a few more openings for you to meet me and, more importantly, Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman at WeShoot on August 9. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman is the Master Sniper of the IDF. He created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. If you heard the show with Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, it was great. He’s going to be there in person. You’ll get to meet him, and he will be teaching from his amazing course of the Elite Marksmanship Program. Now, he put together this program, the Elite Marksmanship Program, and as Gun Lawyer listeners, you can take advantage of this event. If you go to www.elitemarksman.com and you use the code, GUNLAWYER, all caps GUNLAWYER, you get $100 off the amazing training program that he has there. It includes the official IDF targets, all the training, his amazing experience and instruction. He will be following up on that program at this event. So, if you purchase the program and use that promo code to save $100, you can come to this event for free. There’s no charge to meet and see him.

Evan Nappen 19:27
He’s going to be teaching how to implement the program. He’ll be answering questions. It’ll be teaching in the same way the IDF does it. So, if you don’t purchase the program, you won’t be able to attend the event. Make sure you sign up at elitemarksman.com. You can go to weshootusa.com. We Shoot is the fantastic range in Lakewood. Once you purchase the program at www.elitemarksman.com, you can register at weshootusa.com for the program event. Select the Sharpshooter’s Edge: Mastering Rifle Marksmanship with Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. We need to get at least 100 people to buy the program so he will do this free seminar. I believe we’re almost there. So, there’s still a chance for you to get in on this. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. You’re going to get phenomenal training, and you’re going to meet a hero and a legend. And I’m not talking about me. I’m talking about him. So, check out weshootusa.com. WeShoot is a fantastic range, right there in Lakewood, New Jersey. You can get your training and where you can get CCARE and pass it, unlike the Secret Service. They’ll get

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you what you need to get your carry permit, continue your training and have a great resource of a great range in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 21:00
Remember those CCARE requirements were done by negotiation and with fighting, in effect, fighting without fighting, by getting the Attorney General to get rid of the unbelievably difficult requirements that they had first promulgated. This was done through the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. I did help that take place so that we could get the core competency requirements and CCARE instead of the unbelievably difficult course that preceded it. And that was through the efforts of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, a proud sponsor of this show. You need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They fight for our rights. They’re the number one gun rights defender in New Jersey. It’s anjrpc.org. Join. You’ll be glad you did. You’re going to get email alerts about all the shenanigans taking place in Trenton, any changes to the law, updates on the litigation. They’re going at them in federal court. The state of New Jersey. They’re fighting, as we speak, for our right to have modern sporting rifles, to have standard capacity magazines, fighting the Carry Killer law and its idiotic sensitive places, creating victim disarmament zones. So, check out anjrpc.org and make sure you’re a member.

Evan Nappen 22:34
While you’re at it, get a copy of my book. This is where I shamelessly promote my book New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It is your handbook and guide through the ridiculous matrix of New Jersey gun laws. With that book, you can help keep yourself out of jail, out of trouble, and remain a law-abiding gun owner. Despite the efforts of New Jersey creating traps for you to fall into. You don’t want to become a GOFU, my friends. Don’t be a GOFU. One of the great ways to avoid GOFUs is to know the law and not make those mistakes. So, if you’d like to get your copy of the Bible of Jersey gun law, New Jersey Gun Law, by yours truly, go to EvanNappen.com. That’s right, EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. You’ll see the big orange book there, click it to order it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. When you get the book, scan the front cover for that QR code, and it’ll send you right to the subscriber database for free. I do not distribute that list to anybody. You will get alerts for law changes, book updates and access to all the archives for any updates so that your book stays current. It stays current. It’s a labor of love. Get your copy of my book today and stay safe.

Evan Nappen 24:02
So, you know I looked at some great letters. I love the letters, the Ask Evan letters, and I got some really interesting questions that I want to talk about. Of course, the GOFU is at the end of the show that we all love. Before I even get to that, I just want to point out a little commentary here on a New Mexico judge. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nm-judge-uses-slavery-oppression-of-native-americans-to- justify-waiting-period/) This New Mexico judge has decided to use the prior law regarding, and we’re talking way, way back, prior laws where gun bans, we’re talking prior to the Civil War, banned slaves and Native Americans from having guns. They are using that to justify a modern day waiting period. Isn’t that wonderful? Don’t you love it when they rely on blatantly racist gun laws to help promote modern racist gun laws? Make sense, huh? That’s not exactly what the Bruen decision had in mind when talking about text, history and tradition of gun laws. But that just shows you how desperate they

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are. In order for a gun law to remain Constitutional, a modern gun law, you have to show a history of precedent, and it’s basically incredibly difficult for them to do it. They’re so damn desperate that a Federal judge in New Mexico is using the laws that prohibited slaves and laws against Native Americans from owning guns to justify it.

Evan Nappen 25:53
Now, of course, this argument is ridiculous. And this argument cannot fly. It fails to keep in mind that these laws, these racist laws of the past, were prior to the 13th and 14th Amendments. Prior to that. They want to use those laws to justify the modern laws that do the same thing just in a different bottle. It’s the same old wine but in a new bottle. That’s what’s going on. So, I look at this and go, man, it just demonstrates their desperation. But it is really astounding when you see the courts and the justice system relying on racist laws to justify current law. Yeah, it shows you how much they hate the Second Amendment. They hate it so much that they have abandoned their principles on fighting racism, to try to keep the law on the books. Astounding. But then again, there is no level low enough that they won’t go to it appears when it comes to trying to keep an anti-Second Amendment law still on the books.

Evan Nappen 27:21
Hey, I received a letter here, and this is from James. James has a pretty straightforward question. He says, regarding Motor Vehicle Inspection Facilities. Can I carry concealed with a New Jersey CCP? Oh, that’s a new one. Usually, it’s a CCW. A CCP is like something left over from Russia, maybe. I don’t know. But I believe you mean a carry permit, which we’ve call a PTC (Permit to Carry). While getting my car inspected? The answer is no, you can’t. Because if you’re getting your car inspected at a Government facility, then New Jersey makes that a sensitive place. However, if you’re getting it inspected at a private facility, well, that’s not a Government facility for the administration of Government there. A Government facility. So, I would advise you not to carry if you’re going through a State inspection station. But if it’s just a privately-owned car repair shop, etc. that’s open to the public, then that’s not a sensitive place. Thanks, Jamie, for a good question.

Evan Nappen 28:46
Christian writes and asks. Not sure if this is where people ask you questions that you answer on your podcast. But I have a question. Well, it is where you people ask. So, thank you. I own an AR-15, he’s talking some variant I’m sure, and would like to swap out the stock. The current stock was pinned at my local FFL when I bought my rifle. My question is, can I use a stock lock instead of drilling and pinning the new stock? The law says it cannot be an adjustable stock, but it doesn’t say it must be pinned. The modern stock locks make it so it’s not adjustable without a tool. I simply want to maintain the ability to make adjustments, which I don’t think is too much to ask for. It’s like having the car dealership weld your seat in place before you can drive the car.

Evan Nappen 29:32
Well, here’s the problem with any of this stuff. New Jersey’s so-called let’s say, “offending features” of the New Jersey Attorney General Opinion from 1996 interpreted the term “substantially identical”. Well, that telescoping stock is what’s listed there, and telescoping or adjustable, we’re going to get into big battles as to whether this stock qualifies or not. And although I could argue why it shouldn’t, the other side’s going to argue why it should. If it ends up at trial, the folks that are going to decide are going to

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be 12 people on a jury. Remember, those 12 people, who are not smart enough to avoid jury duty, are going to somehow have to figure out whether this gun is a problem or not. So, listen, just don’t go there. It’s not worth it. I understand. Until we get it declared unconstitutional, if you have a gun made compliant by the dealer, who sold it to you in New Jersey as a compliant gun, keep that paperwork and don’t modify it in any way. Because if that gun is ever called into question, you have the absolute fact and proof to demonstrate that you acquired it as compliant, made compliant by a dealer who’s licensed, a New Jersey retail dealer and FFL ,transferred you that gun. That’s going to be the biggest insurance policy to you not becoming another victim of New Jersey gun laws. So, I would advise not to mess around with that. Thanks for the great question.

Evan Nappen 31:32
Gavin writes, greetings, Evan. I enjoyed listening to Episode 193, “Storing Guns Outside Your Home”, but I wanted to find out the legality of a house of worship to have individual lockers for congregants to store firearms when they are attending services. We have people who walk to and from to attend services but are not part of our security team. Can we have lockers on site for them to use while they are on site? Okay, Gavin, let me explain here. The security team, if they’re SORA (Security Officer Registration Act), they get sensitive place exemption for the educational facility in a house of worship. But the general congregational part that’s open to the public is not a sensitive place. So, individuals who are going to the service and are in the public portion of the house of worship are allowed to carry concealed, loaded on their person with a carry permit. They’re allowed to carry their gun there. What they would not be allowed to do is actually lock them in lockers at this place, because there’s no exemption for that. But there is an exemption to have that loaded and concealed gun on their person. So, the last thing you want is lockers there. Now, if they have to secure their gun, then they want to do it by way of the car where they’re secured in their vehicle. If they don’t have a vehicle because they walk there, then they need to keep their gun concealed loaded on their person, but not go into a sensitive area on that property, which would be the educational section, like the school part of it. The general part is not a sensitive place. The carry permit would allow them to carry there because it’s open to the public, and it’s not a sensitive place. So, Gavin, I’m glad you sent that. Thanks. Very good question.

Evan Nappen 33:47
Now we have a question from Jeff. Jeff says Mr. Nappen. I’m hoping you’ll be able to answer this on your podcast. I received a jury notice. I’m a couple of months out, but I wanted to ask if this is a firearm related matter, am I able to use Heller, McDonald and Bruen doctrines of SCOTUS during deliberations, or am I subject to the People’s Republic of New Jersey rules? He’s a member of CNJFO, ANJRPC, GOA and NRA. I’m glad you’re a member of all those organizations, and it’s great that you belong to as many pro-gun rights organizations as you can belong to because they all do great work. But as far as your question goes, when it comes to jury duty, the rule is the judge tells you the law and you have to determine the facts. Once you’re deliberating though, in a jury, you deliberate as a juror, you can discuss whatever you wish to discuss. But the law is going to be given to you by the judge, and you’re supposed to determine the facts. You still can have your own viewpoint and your own opinion, that is for sure. But the law is given by the judge, and you determine the facts. That’s how it has to work.

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Evan Nappen 35:13
The problem I find is individuals that are, let’s just say pro-gun, that understand guns, that recognize the things we talk about all the time in the show. They get jury duty, and they gleefully let it be known what their position is on guns so they can get struck from the jury by anti-gun prosecutors. Please don’t do that. If you’re there as a juror, you tell the truth when questions are asked, and you serve honorably and improperly. But we need more folks that understand guns and understand the reality of firearms on juries and not to have them struck because of that. I’ve seen them try to use different techniques to try to isolate the pro-gun folks. They really can’t necessarily get away with saying, are you pro-gun? Are you anti-gun or are you pro-gun? But what they’ll say is, do you have any stickers on your car of any sort? Ah, you see, now they want to know your political views. But they ask it when asking jurors, what stickers might you have on your car? So, beware of having any stickers on your car that may, in one way or another, be found to be offensive to somebody. It’s quite a thing. But there are those efforts made to actually keep individuals that believe and understand the Second Amendment off juries. When it comes to the Constitutional aspects, well, discuss the whole case with the jurors should you be having to deliberate. Do it fairly. Do it honestly. That’s what jurors need to do.

Evan Nappen 37:18
Hey, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU. Remember, the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up, and I don’t want any of you to ever be a GOFU. The GOFU is a very expensive lesson learned by somebody else that you get to learn for free by listening to the show. This week’s GOFU, you know, these are real cases, actual things I’ve dealt with. And man, I just have to tell you. This is a classic GOFU, and I’ve seen it repeated before. Here we go. An individual is stopped for a seatbelt. Yes. A seatbelt. You know, the pretext. I mean, that’s really what the seatbelt law is all about. Did you think it’s really about being safe? Because there are a lot of arguments that sometimes wearing safety belts actually can cause you to have more injuries and death. And sometimes not. I mean, look, people should be able to choose, but in New Jersey, you can’t choose because the law says you have to wear your safety belt. I’m not going to get into a debate whether that is good or bad or not.

Evan Nappen 38:23
But I’ll tell you one thing. It’s used as a pretext to stop you and to give you a summons or to pull you over becomes that excuse to do that. A reason to do that. When that happens, anytime you’re pulled over, anytime you’re stopped, you now have the risk potential of becoming a victim of New Jersey gun laws. If there’s a gun in the car, if there’s a gun on your person, anything to do with firearms. Yep. Now that stops. So, the first thing you want to do if you’re stopped, of course, is cooperate. Show your credentials. You know, registration, insurance, and your driver’s license. You have to do that. It’s required. And remember, if you are carrying, there is a Duty to Disclose. We’ve reviewed that. You must immediately tell the officer that you have a handgun on your person, and you must immediately show your carry permit. All that’s true. But you do not have to consent to a search. So, don’t consent to searches.

Evan Nappen 39:35
The number one problem, number one thing, I see is consent to a search. Why consent to a search? Best case is nothing’s going to be found, and you’ll be exactly where you were if you didn’t consent to the search. But if you do consent to the search, now you’re allowing a fishing expedition to take place at

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your expense. Suddenly, the jacket found in the car that belonged to your son’s friend that you gave a ride to, had some contraband that you didn’t even know was there? Now, you’re going to have to deal with that. Or you thought you were in conformance with how you were transporting your firearm. But surprisingly, you weren’t. Because there was another gun in the car, who knows what? Why are you opening yourself up? Never consent. Why are you giving up your Fourth Amendment right? Why? Don’t do it. I can’t be any clearer than that. It’s your Fourth Amendment. Do not consent to searches.

Evan Nappen 40:41
Then to compound it, after something is found like that, then you are read Miranda, and you waive your Fifth Amendment. You waive your right to counsel, and you talk to them without an attorney. You shouldn’t be saying anything. And you’re doing it without an attorney? So, what just happened in that scenario? You gave up your Fourth Amendment right. You gave up your Fifth Amendment right. You gave up your Sixth Amendment right. And now you are in a position where you’re having to deal with something that maybe never even would have taken place. Maybe that arrest, that problem, that issue would never have taken place if you had simply stood on your rights. Or if it still took place, the fact that you did not waive your rights gives me the ability to raise the violation of your rights to help defend your case. Folks, the biggest GOFU, of all the GOFUs out there, is waiving your Constitutional rights. So, please, don’t do that. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:12
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E196_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 195-What the media will NEVER tell you!Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 195SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, gun rights, new jersey, handgun, exemption, law, shoot, president trump, gun laws, vance, homeless, firearm, evan, place, bb gun, carry, question, vehicle, firearms, lawyer

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, we sure had a hell of a week that’s for sure. I mean, history is being made before our very eyes, and, of course, we’ve been watching. I’m sure all of you have been watching as events unfold. And, you know, as gun people as we are, we’re always interested in hardware being employed at any time, good or bad. One of the things some folks have asked is, does anyone know what gun the deceased would be assassin was using? They’re not making a big deal about the specific model, but I did discover it. This is from an article on Fox News where it talks about the FBI gaining access to the would-be killer’s, well, he is a killer. He killed the great man there who was a fire chief and beloved family man and wounded two others seriously. (https://www.foxnews.com/us/fbi-has-gained-access-thomas-matthew-crooks-phone-trump- assassination-attempt)

Evan Nappen 01:26
So, the firearm that he used, by the way, was a DPMS AR-15 type gun, if anyone’s wondering what it was. It was a DPMS. And so, what? AR is the most popular firearm, modern sporting rifle in America. So, it’s not a surprise that a gun that’s popular, that’s in such common use, can be used for good or bad. It’s not the gun; it’s the person. Here we see this person who almost took out President Trump and thank God he didn’t. Instead, we really see what an opposite effect is taking place. We saw what has to be the ultimate cognitive tests that anyone has ever undertook, which is, how do you react after being shot in an attempted assassination? And what did we see? We saw President Trump rising up after being wounded by the round. He rose up, and he held up his fist. His cheek has that blood like war paint, and what does he do there with the American flag behind him? That iconic picture that will live on forever. Even going on the cover of Time Magazine. Even they have to put that photo on their cover, as much as they’re a bunch of lefties. And what is it? What does it say? It says fight. Keep fighting. Fight no matter what. Talk about inspiration.

Evan Nappen 03:37
You know, when folks face danger, when you’re gripped with that moment of extreme peril and fear, they say that people have essentially three reactions, although sometimes it’s reduced down to two. It’s known as fight or flight. I’m sure you’ve heard that. But it’s actually fight, flight, or fear; a fight, flight or freeze from the fear. Fight, flight, or freeze. And what you saw there, without staging, without teleprompters, without prescreening and preparation, as his opponent has to do to even get through an

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event, you saw President Trump react in the most inspiring and amazing way. And that was a pure fight reaction. And that was his message. We have to fight. We have to fight for our rights. We have to fight so that we can protect, not just our Second Amendment rights, but protect America, and I know that you realize that.

Evan Nappen 04:57
These are things that we’ve been reflecting on, but one of the key things, I think of great interest that you may not be hearing a lot about and that I want to share with you is the vice presidential choice by President Trump, which was to pick J.D. Vance. Now J.D. Vance is a young man, relatively speaking, and he was chosen by President Trump. It’s an amazing pick by the President because if you know his backstory, that he actually wrote a book about called Hillbilly Elegy and that book became a movie, Hillbilly Elegy. It became a movie. You can watch it today on Netflix, and now it’s back in the top 10 on Netflix, even though I think the movie didn’t come out till 2020. But the deal is, you know, he comes from Appalachia. That’s his roots. And it’s a great movie to watch, to really see this individual that came up from this poor, but very prideful family. Just a difficult culture to excel from, you know, the challenges that that presents. He did that very thing and dealt with many problems in his environment, and it’s a lot to admire about him. He joined the Marines. Then he went to Yale Law School and graduated top of his class, and he ended up being very successful in business.

Evan Nappen 07:00
One of the things that is of great importance to us is, well, what is his stand on what’s near and dear to us? What is J.D. Vance’s position when it comes to gun rights? I have an article here from guns.com, and it’s called, “Where does J.D. Vance, Trump’s VP Pick, Stand on Gun Rights?” This article is by Chris Eger, and it’s really great. (https://www.guns.com/news/2024/07/16/trump-vice-president-jd- vance-pro-gun) J.D. Vance is a stalwart pro-gun, pro-gun rights advocate. He is absolutely. We couldn’t ask for anyone better. And keep in mind, his pick, as vice president is, of course, to carry the torch even after President Trump. Just to highlight some really fascinating things about J.D. Vance, specifically on his stand on gun rights. Well, first of all, according to the article, by the way, he grew up with guns. His grandmother, he called Mamaw, was really this incredibly strong woman who forcefully was able to, in effect, save J.D. and put him on the right path to success. But she, who kept him on the straight and narrow, was a Democrat. She was known as, you know, a blue dog Democrat. She herself owned 19 handguns and had a deep Christian faith. This is where he got his foundation, and he is absolutely a true believer, like you and me.

Evan Nappen 09:18
He has quite a record in opposing red flag laws. He opposed the sell out by the rhinos, you know, the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. He calls gun violence. You know, we’ve talked about that fake term that is just to make guns into violence. He calls it a fake problem. Gun violence are fake problems. Gotta love it, because they are. It’s criminal violence. That’s the problem. He also calls it a huge distraction. And that’s what the left always does, right? The anti-gunners, the anti-gun folks, they distract all the time with gun control, gun laws, gun violence – the propaganda term. And he calls them out on it. You know, the NRA spent half a million dollars supporting Vance. He is a rated for his Senate campaign. Vance has advocated the abolition of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. So,

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he’s an unwavering supporter of Constitutional rights and especially the right to keep and bear arms. I’m paraphrasing what NRA has to say about him.

Evan Nappen 10:54
We are very fortunate that President Trump has chosen J.D. Vance, and this is just extremely exciting. We now are poised for a tremendous victory for our gun rights. Remember, the next president is probably going to appoint more Supreme Court justices which can be not only someone who can block the left’s attempts at taking away our gun rights but can actually get an increase in our Second Amendment freedoms. Get repeals through and get positive gun rights laws that protect our rights passed. And, boy, the groundwork is really being laid here. I think we all have a right to be cautiously optimistic and happy for the way the political winds have changed so dramatically in America.

Evan Nappen 12:12
Let’s face it, what Biden and the Democrats have tried to do to President Trump has all backfired and collapsed under their own feet. You see that the President has survived everything that they’ve thrown at him, from the lawfare campaign to these bogus criminal indictments, to these ridiculous civil suits, and going after his company. All these things that will eventually be reversed. And they thought by slamming him like this, that they would stop him. But not a man who gets shot and wounded, pushes away Secret Service so he can stand there with a bloody cheek and his fists raised, to continue the fight. They’re not going to stop him. He is one of the toughest, most amazing, folks and boy, isn’t that who we want for our leader? You better believe it. So, these are interesting times for sure, and we’re following it very vigorously, folks. Hopefully, we will be able to fix the damage that’s been done, and actually make things tremendously better. And have the Second Amendment become the full embodiment of what our Founding Fathers meant for us to have.

Evan Nappen 13:45
Now, I did find another interesting tidbit here that I want to share, because again, you’re not going to see this emphasized in the imperial media, in the lamestream media. Researchers at Duke University did a study on gun violence. (https://abc11.com/post/children-gun-violence-researchers-duke- university-release- new/15051779/#:~:text=(WTVD)%20%2D%2D%20Duke%20University’s%20recent,ages%20of%20on e%20to%2018.) So, there’s the magic words again, you know, on that. It’s reported from Duke’s recent study, and here’s the good part. It’s really something. Regardless of how many gun laws, regardless of how restrictive you have gun laws, such as expanding background checks and waiting periods and safe storage and all that stuff, they love to dump on gun owners to pamper our rights, that there is no notable distinctions between states with and without firearm laws when it comes to deaths among children. That’s right. The Duke study essentially determined that the gun laws have no effect on the deaths of children. Oh my. So, all these gun laws do is take away our rights and make it harder for us to defend ourselves and our families and to exercise our Second Amendment rights. They do absolutely nothing in terms of the deaths of children. You know, the left is always, oh, it’s about the children. Well, if it’s about the children, it’s not doing a thing about the children. But it is causing the Constitution to be violated and our guarantee of our Second Amendment rights to take hits. No impact whatsoever on children. So, there’s some data that you’re not going to see mentioned too much in the media, but we love to talk about those things here on Gun Lawyer.

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Evan Nappen 16:15
Now, let me also bring to your attention regarding WeShoot. We have a number of things here happening at WeShoot that I want to bring to your attention. First of all, WeShoot is a great indoor range in Lakewood, and it’s easily accessed right from the Parkway. You can find them right on the web at weshootusa.com. Now what WeShoot is doing is they’re running a new webstore, offering extremely low and competitive prices. So, if you’re looking around for some great deals, they’re doing this to support the gun owner community and combat the recent fee hikes proposed by New Jersey. If you go to their webstore at weshootusa.com, you’ll find these great low and competitive prices. Plus, if you select in-store pickup, you can avoid transfer fees and shipping costs. That’s right. At WeShoot, there are no transfer fees if you select in-store pickup. The new webstore aims to help people who are impacted by rising prices and fees, and to encourage anyone discouraged by those increases to still get their guns and top quality gear. To celebrate this, from July 21 to July 28, they’re offering an additional 10% off all items, excluding gift cards, from their webstore. So, make sure you check out WeShoot. They’re offering these fantastic deals and discounts. You can get great guns and gear at great prices.

Evan Nappen 18:27
The other important thing, which we’ve talked about before and I want to let you know. there’s still some limited space available. So, you want to jump on this. Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, IDF Master Sniper, the guy who created the training program for the half million Israeli soldiers in the IDF. A guy that’s been there and done that for real. You know, he made the cover Soldier of Fortune for real. He will be live at WeShoot on August 9 in the morning, August 9. He’ll be there in person instructing, and you can attend that for free, as long as you buy his Elite Marksmanship Program system on the website. That Elite Marksmanship Program is amazing. It is instruction and video by Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. You’re going to learn things that you’re not going to learn anywhere else. He will be at WeShoot to personally instruct and teach how to implement the program. So, you’re going to get the program itself and then the personal instruction for free. You’ll get to meet this hero. His credentials are beyond reproach. He’s an amazing guy. So, if you’re interested in attending that, getting the Elite Marksmanship Program is really easy. You simply go to his website at wwwelitemarksman.com. We have the link right on our website here for the podcast as well. Purchase a program with a special for Gun Lawyer listeners. If you use the code all caps GUNLAWYER, one word all caps GUNLAWYER, you get an extra $100 off the Elite Marksmanship Program. Once you purchase the program, go to weshootusa.com, and register for the seminar under the training tab. Select the Sharpshooter’s Edge: Mastering Rifle Marksmanship with Lt. Col. Mikey Hartman. So, we’re going to need to get 100 people. That’s the max for this program. Like I said, there are a few places still available, but not many. So, make sure you jump on this great opportunity to get that top line training skills and meet Lieutenant Colonel Hartman personally. I know I’m looking forward to it. I will be there. I’ll also be speaking there as well. Don’t miss it.

Evan Nappen 21:36
I also want to remind you, as I know you are aware, at least you better be, that you need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They, too, are a proud sponsor of Gun Lawyer, and I really do appreciate it. They are the number one gun rights defenders in New Jersey.

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They’re the ones litigating in federal court, as we speak, on all the bad gun laws that Jerseyans suffer under, like the assault firearm law, the large capacity magazine law, and the Carry Killer bill. Dealing with the Attorney General and getting all kinds of good things done. Helping our gun rights. Plus, they have a full time paid lobbyist down in Trenton keeping an eye on their shenanigans. You’ll get email alerts and the best newsletter on gun rights in the state. So, make sure you’re a member. Make sure you join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC.com. anjrpc.com. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Be part of the solution. They’re the group. I belong, and I serve on the board. I help with the litigation and legal issues. I’m dedicated to the Association. You need to be a member. They are the number one group for Jersey, and it’s critical that you belong.

Evan Nappen 23:15
The other thing you really need to do if you haven’t done it already. Big suggestion. Make sure you buy my book. That’s right. It’s New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It’s your guidebook through the dangerous matrix of New Jersey gun laws. You don’t want to be a GOFU. One of the best ways to avoid being a GOFU is to have that book. I wrote it to protect you. It’s used by the State Police Firearms Unit. It’s used by police and judges, attorneys and most importantly 1000s of gun owners throughout New Jersey. That’s who I wrote it for. It’s a labor of love. It’s now the 25th Anniversary Edition. When you get the book, scan the front cover and that will get you right to my subscriber database for free. I don’t sell it. I don’t distribute that database to anybody. But you will get updates from me if there are any changes in the law. You’ll be able to access the archives for all the updates, and you’ll be given notice of new updates, so the book stays current. Make sure you do that. If you want to get your copy today, just go to EvanNappen.com. That’s right www.EvanNappen.com. My name.com very easy. You’ll see the big orange book, click it to order it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. You’ll be glad that you did it.

Evan Nappen 25:00
I love getting letters, and I’ve gotten some really great Ask Evan letters. These are so important because they are listeners with real questions and things that many of you may have wondered about yourself, just never gotten the time to ask. So, I have a letter here, and this is from Michael from Woodland Park. And what Michael says is kind of interesting, and we’ll go through his questions. Once again, I want to express my heartfelt gratitude to you, Evan, as a seminar attendee and long-time listener. Your presence and participation has always been a source of inspiration. Your emphasis on using the privileges granted us by the overlords running the People’s Republic of New Jersey and the transportation aspect is genuinely enlightening. It is my understanding that those with a permit to carry: number one, may have a loaded handgun on their person that is holstered and concealed when in a vehicle. Not be loaded in a holster or stored anywhere else in the vehicle including a purse or glove box, and must comply with the transportation exemption and rules.

Evan Nappen 26:23
So, basically, that is the story. If you have a Permit to Carry a handgun, the Carry Killer bill originally prohibited folks from carrying their loaded licensed handgun in a vehicle. That was won by the State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Thanks to their litigation, this was stayed and actually enjoined so that it’s no longer effective in the law. You can carry your loaded, concealed handgun on your person in your vehicle. The law that was part of the Carry Killer bill, we

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called that the Carjacker Protection law when it originally came out, is no longer enforceable law. Thanks to the Association. However, you need to have your gun in the same manner that you would carry it outside the car, which is concealed loaded properly holstered on your person. Which is why, if you have a purse, you can’t have your gun in the purse and throw it on the back seat, that kind of a thing. You need to have it on your person. If you can, have the shoulder strap right over your shoulder, right there, directly next to you. Hopefully even touching your person if you’re carrying in a purse carry or fanny pack carry. We’ve discussed this before in the show. If you’re not carrying it in a proper way for concealed carry but instead are transporting it under the old exemptions, cased and unloaded, then it has to be just that – cased and unloaded. In the trunk if you have a trunk. You have to be going to specific places. From your home to the target range or from your home to hunting, if it’s appropriate for hunting, or from your home to your place of business, etc. You have to stay within those narrow exemptions and transport it accordingly.

Evan Nappen 28:30
Number two, they may have a loaded handgun on their person that is holstered and concealed within the vehicle. However, any range bag containing additional handguns may not be stored anywhere else in the vehicle unless they comply with the transportation exemption and rules. That is true. So, if you’re going to the range, then transport the other guns pursuant to the range transport, which is found by the way under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.f. for the range transportation. That’s where you can stay clearly within the exemption for the proper transport and then subsection g. of 39-6 is the mode of transport, which is unloaded, always unloaded, in either a closed and fastened case or in a gun box or locked in a trunk. That’s the proper way to do that.

Evan Nappen 29:31
Now number three, any handgun stored in a vehicle must be unloaded and stored using the transportation exemption. Yep, that is correct. Michael says, this is beyond insane because allowing a person to remove and secure the holster containing the weapon requires less manipulation then removing the handgun from the holster, removing the magazine, pulling the slide back, ejecting a round, capturing the round, placing the handgun into the lockbox, storing the ejected round, and storing the magazine. Perhaps more awkward, getting back in the vehicle, unlocking the box, removing the handgun, inserting the magazine, chambering a round, removing the magazine, topping of the magazine, inserting the magazine, then holstering the handgun.

Evan Nappen 30:12
Yes, this is the idiotic procedure that we have to go through if you’re going to be loading and unloading, especially when dealing with sensitive places because you have to secure it in a locked box. You want it locked and unloaded. This requires the continuous loading and unloading of the gun, which itself now forces you, in that confined space of a vehicle, to have to do this. This itself is now creating more unsafe conditions. So, the law does not enhance safety. It actually decreases safety. So much for the gun safety advocates that now require this absurdity. Mike goes on and says, perhaps the New Jersey State Police can produce a video showing how anyone could possibly do the above without being noticed to avoid some Karen calling 911 to report a person with a gun or some bad guy getting the idea of how to bypass purchase restrictions. I’d love to see it. And yes, I’ve had any number of cases where individuals are observed with their gun doing that very thing and the police get contacted. Of course,

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they’re legal. They’re allowed to do it. So, when you’re doing this, the idea is you have to do it very discreetly, on top of having to do all those manipulations. Again, less safe, more dangerous. Instead of just leaving it loaded untouched in the holster, which the law does not allow you to do at that sensitive place. You have to store your gun. It is as stupid as stupid gets, but that is New Jersey law, of course. New Jersey laws number one goal is to be stupid when it comes to guns, and they don’t fail here.

Evan Nappen 32:07
Mike goes on, using People’s Republic of New Jersey logic, if a person with a permit to carry left their home in the morning with a loaded and holstered handgun, with several tasks, including: one and two, dropping kids off at two different schools; three, stopping at a pharmacy; four, dropping off a property tax payment; five, taking a walk in the park; six, dropping off a library book; seven, dropping off some no longer needed clothing at a shelter; eight, picking up a friend at the airport; and nine and ten, picking up the kids from different schools. The question from Mike is, would that person strictly complying with all laws, rules, and regulations, with a permit to carry be expected to store their handgun in strict conformance with the transportation requirements between each and every errand? Or is being on the road between sensitive places allowed by the transportation exemption?

Evan Nappen 33:01
Mike, the answer is yes, that is exactly the absurdity. Frankly, someone should make a video just showing how stupid and dangerous it is. That every time you enter a sensitive place and park, you’re going to have to unload your gun and lock it. Meaning unholster it, reholster it. Each and every time you do that. It gets even more dangerous with the schools. Because not only are schools a sensitive place, but also there’s a separate prohibition under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e. for educational facilities. This does not even allow you on the school property with your gun loaded or unloaded. So, you are going to have to park on the street to do that with the kids. It is as stupid as it gets. That hypothetical is really an excellent hypothetical that demonstrates the continuous having to handle that handgun in the vehicle over and over again, of loading and racking and unloading. It is unbelievably stupid, and it really needs to end. We need to win in the Carry Killer case. We have to get rid of these sensitive places. That’s just an abuse designed to limit our rights. Mike, thanks for the great letter and pointing out some very important problems that exist.

Evan Nappen 34:38
I have another letter, and this letter is from Lou. Lou says, hi Evan, my wife and I were listening to your podcast while driving back home from a long Fourth of July weekend in New England. That’s very nice. She came up with an interesting question and she wanted me to ask you. We both have New Jersey FID Cards, but all the firearms in my home were purchased / are owned by me. So, is it legal for my wife to transport my firearm? For example, we want to have a date night at the range. I leave work and drive directly to the range to meet her. She leaves our home with the firearms to meet me at the range. I understand that New Jersey gun law does not allow you to lend or borrow another individual’s firearms. Thank you for all you do . . . Lou.

Evan Nappen 35:24
Yeah, Lou, that’s a big problem. Your guns have to be transported by you, not her. If she’s going to transport them and that’s the plan, then you need to do Certificates of Eligibility to her before you leave

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for your long arms. So, now you’ve transferred them to her, and she can bring them to the range where you can then use them. Then if you want to get them back, she gets to do the paperwork back to you. Now, private sales normally require a dealer, but not with private sales to immediate family members. That also includes your spouse. So, you could actually do this paperwork back and forth twice to make that legal. But, if you’re not going to do that paperwork, then no, she can’t take your guns to the range. Only you can do that. Even though you both have New Jersey Firearms ID cards. Yep, it is just another absurdity under New Jersey law, if we want to talk about how the law technically works and applies. So, Lou, thanks for the great question.

Evan Nappen 36:23
This is from Ronald. Now Ronald asks an interesting question that doesn’t apply to him right now, and hopefully, it never applies to him or any of us. But it is an interesting thought. So, I want you to hear Ronald’s letter. He says, hi, Evan. My question revolves around homelessness. I am not homeless, nor do I plan to be. But life sometimes takes a turn for the worst. If I found myself living in my car, am I allowed to keep my gun in the car permanently? Would I be abiding by the law? Further, if I have to cross state lines for whatever reason, how can I go about doing that without breaking the law? Ronald, as much as the left bends over backwards for the homeless, as much as they want the homeless to set up tents anywhere they want and all that problem instead of addressing and really trying to help them, guess what? If you are homeless, you’ve lost your gun rights. That’s right. It’s that simple.

Evan Nappen 37:30
In New Jersey, you’re going to need a residence in order to get a Firearms ID Card, a pistol purchase permit, or a carry permit. You cannot get a license without having a residence. Now, let’s say you already somehow have this gun and you’re not looking to get a license. Well, how are you possessing the gun? There is no exemption for homelessness. The exemption under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e. says possession in one’s home. If you’re homeless, if you don’t have a home, if you don’t have a residence, if you don’t have land owned or possessed by you, guess what? You don’t have an exemption for your possession, and you can’t get a license to possess it. If you had a carry permit, then you’re not restricted to having that loaded handgun on you only in your home. But you can’t get the carry permit unless you have a residence. They’re not going to issue it. Right on the application, what’s your residence? Homeless isn’t an answer that’s going to get accepted. So, the bottom line is if you’re homeless, you’re also Second Amendment deprived. They have disenfranchised in New Jersey the homeless from the Second Amendment. They are disenfranchise from gun rights. That’s right. So, look, it’s an interesting question because it shows this effect.

Evan Nappen 39:10
The issue that Jersey makes for homelessness, I think might be even ripe for a challenge. Because under Bruen when you look at text, history, and tradition, there was never a requirement in the past laws, you know, of the times that we have to look at from the founding of the Second Amendment, maybe up to the 1860s, where in order to have a gun, you had to have a home. Believe me, there were plenty of homeless throughout our history that had their rights not taken away from them. But that’s not how it stands now in Jersey. So, maybe some group that normally defends the homeless, like the ACLU, maybe they’ll step up for homeless gun rights. Yeah, that’ll be the day. That’ll be the day.

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Evan Nappen 40:05
So, what about this week’s very popular segment, the GOFU? What’s the GOFU for this week? Remember the GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up in which I’m talking about actual cases, actual gun owners, who end up getting in trouble, having problems. They are expensive lessons they learned that you get to learn very, very reasonably. You get to learn them for free. So, this GOFU is about children and air guns. Keep in mind that in New Jersey, air guns, air pistols, air rifles, pellet rifles, etc., are firearms under New Jersey law. Airsoft is not a firearm. You know the ones that shoot the little six millimeter plastic pellets. But your traditional BB guns, lead pellet, alloy pellet, pellet firing rifles, .177 pellets, .22 cal pellet BB guns, traditional air guns, are firearms under New Jersey law. If you let your son or daughter have a BB gun, you know, like Christmas story, the ol’e Red Ryder and they go out, not under your direct supervision with that, well, that’s an unlawful transfer of a firearm made to your son or daughter. It was unlawful, and their possession of the air gun or BB gun is unlawful. Both you and your child can face New Jersey gun charges. That’s right. Firearm charges for a BB gun in New Jersey. So, don’t be that GOFU. If you’re going to take your kids shooting, make sure they’re under your direct supervision at all times and therefore under the exemption for that under N.J.S. 2C:58-6.1. That’s what allows it to happen. But if they’re not under your supervision, direct supervision, no guns, no air guns. Don’t let them keep their BB gun in their room, etc. None of that. You can’t do it in New Jersey. And if you do, you can have big problems that can escalate to everybody losing their gun rights, losing their guns and possibly losing your freedom by being imprisoned.

Evan Nappen 42:50
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:59
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E195_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 193-Storing Guns Outside Your Home Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 193SUMMARY KEYWORDS

taft, new jersey, put, ffl, gun, vending machines, ammo, president, carry, holster, roosevelt, sword, terms, storage, good, interesting, range, firearm, fanny pack, durandal

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I get asked often, where can I store my firearms, but not in my home? If I need to find a place of temporary storage? What can I do? Are there places that offer that? It can get a little tricky in New Jersey because you can’t just go and bring your guns to your friend’s house and have them hold it. That’s not a legal transfer. That’s deemed an illegal transfer. So, what can folks in Jersey do? Well, a good friend of the show, John Petrolino, just put out an excellent article called “NJ NICS Research Center Knocks it out of the Park on Storage Map.” (https://bearingarms.com/john-petrolino/2024/07/05/nj-nics-research-center-knocks-it-out-of-the-park- on-storage-map-n1225497) And I think they did, too. I agree with John. He did some great coverage here of the NJ NICS Research Center. This is an article that you can find on BearingArms, which is a great aggregate news site, and they have great writers like John. This is very interesting. This whole idea of gun storage, temporarily, outside the home. Sometimes gun owners need that because of various circumstances. They don’t want to leave their guns maybe at home when they’re going on vacation or going out of state for a while. Or sometimes there are situations in the home where they just don’t want firearms to be there. Whatever the reason, there is a movement on the anti-gun side, which is true, to facilitate offsite storage and how to do it legally.

Evan Nappen 02:13
So much so that what makes this so interesting is that the New Jersey Government tried to set up a safe storage, firearm storage, map through the Rutgers New Jersey Gun Violence, it’s always “gun violence”, you know, not criminal violence, Research Center. This was put together by Murphy, and they spent $3 million of our tax dollars to do this. Frankly, their site sucks, which you might expect. But the NNRC did an excellent job. They really researched and put the time in and came up with their list and recommendations. They made sure that the places confirmed it and were able and legal to do so. When you go to their website, which the link is in John Petrolino’s article, of course, but you can go to njnics.com, they have the New Jersey “Firearm Storage Map”. They have other things there, too, that’s of great interest. Their number one recommendation by the way, on the website is FSS Armory in Pine Brook, New Jersey, and Elite Tactical Academy in Easton, PA. They have the information there.

Evan Nappen 03:55
But what’s interesting and was pointed out right on their site is that many fraudulent maps are published by anti-gun organizations that wish to disarm the public. One such map was published, as we

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mentioned, by the Rutgers Gun Violence, “Gun Violence”, Research Center, and it cost $3 million. What NJNICS did is they did OPRA (Open Public Records Act) requests, and they put this together. By the way, Rutgers’ expenses were $107,672. NJNIC’s expenses were zero, by the way, and the New Jersey grant, paid by you and me, was $3 million. All right. Keep in mind that NJNICS is not sponsored by any firearm business. They have a storage map, and it’s literally mapped out. They list their top picks.

Evan Nappen 04:58
Their top picks are the FSS Armory. They’re in Pine Brook. And Elite Tactical Academy in Easton. Griffin and Howe in Andover, and they have Gunsitters in East Hanover. These are their top picks. They do put under Gunsitters, “inquire about FFL details”. That’s on the website. The other three are straight out recommendations because they are FFLs. Apparently, Gunsitters is not and that’s why they put that little red warning there under that. But these are their top picks. It does say there are more options and that includes Gun for Hire in Woodland Park. They got an “honorable mention”. They have an FFL license. Hackettstown Firearms Storage. They’re an FFL. Tactical Training Center Range in Flemington. They’re an FFL. Full Metal Jacket Range in Ocean View. They’re an FFL. Range 609 in Rio Grande. They’re an FFL. RTSP Range in Randolph and Union Hill. They’re an FFL, as well. Reloaderz in Wayne, and they’re an FFL. You can see their recommendations, their listings and the research that they’ve done. So that if you are looking to store firearms outside your home, even temporarily, these are some places that you could see if they meet your needs. According to NJNICS Research Center. So, good job for them. And for John for writing, again, a great article, very thorough and detailed. He really discusses these issues and gets the truth out. That’s why we love John. So, check that out.

Evan Nappen 07:19
Now, recently, this has been interesting. Seeing the post-debate. This isn’t exactly about guns, but then again, it is because Biden has been the most anti-gun President ever in history. He has done agency abuse to the maximum degree. Getting ATF to declare all kinds of legal things illegal and constantly pushing gun bans and these anti-Second Amendment actions. Of course, get ready for this, folks, he lies about his position. I’m pro-Second Amendment. I don’t want to shock you by saying Joe Biden’s a liar. But definitely on the Second Amendment, he surely is. Because his actions speak far louder than his words. You can see the effects as it has changed the dynamic and the messaging that comes out. But, luckily, the Supreme Court has, and other courts for that matter have hammered back his efforts at abuse of agency rule, abuse of our rights. So, I think it’s fair game here, and it’s very important.

Evan Nappen 08:42
Look, if you’re a one-issue voter like yours truly and that choice is going to come down to Trump or Biden, well, there’s only one choice then. Trump. That’s it man. End of story if that’s what you believe in. Because Biden is just there. Moneyed by the anti-gun lobby. Moneyed up the wazoo, you know, with Soros dollars and Bloomberg dollars and all that. He constantly pushes and constantly falls back to putting an anti-gun rights message out. So, I’m watching this debate, as I’m sure many of you did, and you see that finally, what we all knew, but apparently there was major cover up over it, his disabilities. His mental disability, and his physical disability. You know. You’ve listened I’m sure to the news that’s

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discussing the implications of all this. It’s scary even now thinking he’s our President. If we have our enemies’ prey upon us, that’s the guy making the decisions. It’s pretty scary.

Evan Nappen 10:01
So, the big issue at this moment, at the time of this podcast, is he going to drop out? Or is he going to stay? And that’s an interesting question. There’s a major push within the Democrat party. We’re talking about classic liberal media outlets that were their cheerleaders, their cheerleaders, participating in any message they wanted to put out. They ran with it, you know, and whatever it was. They have turned on him. I’m talking about the New York Times, Washington Post, Politico and on and on and on. Saying he has to go. He has to go; he has to go. Then there’s the loyal contingent saying, oh, no, he’s fine. Lying, gaslighting, all that. So, will he go? Will he or won’t he? And what’s interesting here is, my bet is that he’s not going to go. He’s not gonna go. He’s not gonna go because, first of all, the money is his – $200 million. It’s very hard dealing with the money. Getting those monies to any other candidate may not even be possible with maybe the exception of cackling Kamala. So, there’s that problem. There are early voting states where things need to be registered and put forward in advance. Getting a new candidate will place problems there. So, it looks like they’re stuck.

Evan Nappen 11:32
But I think the number one factor that you don’t hear that much about, but it’s plainly there, and that is why he is staying. I think it falls squarely on the shoulders of Jill Biden. If you watch his wife, Jill, she’s there leading him. Always there. She praises him like a little toddler. Oh, that was so good, Joe. You answered all the questions. I was ready for her to say, have a cookie. I mean, what? You know, this is our president, right? This woman loves the First Lady life, and she doesn’t want to get rid of it. Power through the Presidency. If she doesn’t approve of him leaving, he’s not going to get out. This reminds me, historically, of another famous First Lady, but it may not be the First Lady you’re thinking of. Many of you might think that one of the key First Ladies who had tremendous influence over their President husband was Mrs. Wilson. President Woodrow Wilson’s wife, (Edith Bolling Galt Wilson). While he was incapacitated from a stroke and whatever his problems were, you know, she did step in.

Evan Nappen 12:57
But she was not the first First Lady that has the same or better analogies to what’s going on now with Jill Biden. For that, the First Lady you need to look at is Nellie Taft. That’s right. Nellie Taft. Her full name was Helen Louise Taff, but she went by Nellie. She was William Howard Taft’s wife, and she was an unbelievably ambitious woman who, even at the age of 17, said she wanted to become First Lady. So, she married Taft. She guided him through his political career and made all the moves to get them closer to the presidency. She played it out really well with Theodore Roosevelt. He was Secretary of War at one point. And what happened was, you see, Roosevelt had two terms as President. The first term was when President McKinley was assassinated, and he won his second term in a huge landslide. It was clear that if he ran for a third term, he’d be reelected again. But he did not want to break the tradition of Washington, President George Washington, who only served two terms. Now, there wasn’t a requirement in those days to only serve two terms. But Roosevelt was not one to break convention or tradition, even though later his cousin, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, would break that tradition and run for terms exceeding two and be elected even. But Theodore Roosevelt had a lot more respect for tradition

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than Franklin Roosevelt did. He said, I’m getting out of here, and I’m going to Africa. He had Taft as his handpicked successor, and everyone was good with it.

Evan Nappen 15:17
It was kind of understood that Roosevelt was going to take this break, and then come back. Then he could run again, because he believed you couldn’t have more than two presidential terms. You couldn’t have more than two in a row. But as long as you gave a break and then came back, you could and that would be fair game. So, when he came back after Africa, the famous 1912 election time, Nellie Taft did not want her husband to give it up. And Roosevelt’s like, hey, you know, we kind of had this understanding. And guess what they did? They rigged the Republican convention. Yep. They rigged the conventions in those days, too. Taft was the current president, and he could exert the power. They rigged the convention, and even though Roosevelt wanted the nomination, Taft got the nomination. Roosevelt was pretty angry about it, so he ran as a third party. He beat Taft in the general election, but he split the ticket and that’s how Wilson became President. Woodrow Wilson became president. Then, of course, Woodrow Wilson, with World War One and the Versailles Treaty. The Versailles Treaty just hammered Germany so hard that it laid the groundwork for the rise of Adolf Hitler and World War Two. It was not a good idea. That’s why we changed after World War Two and adopted the Marshall Plan instead of a Versailles Treaty type plan. But you can trace all this back to Nellie Taft and her pushing her husband, who really just wanted to be a Supreme Court justice. Even when he had been offered it earlier, she made him turn it down. No, you’ve got to be President. He just wanted to be a judge. He didn’t want to be President. He didn’t like being President. But Nellie. Nope, nope, nope, you’re going to be President. And that’s what he did. It wasn’t until years later, after he lost, and Harding became President. Harding actually finally made Taft, gave him his dream job and put him on the Court. And that’s what he loved. That’s what he wanted to do. He didn’t even want to be President nevertheless
run for a second term. So, if you want to look for analogy, there’s a good analogy. The Nelly Taft story. I think it’s interesting, and it is something that is newsworthy today that you’re not really hearing discussed, but I think it’s something you should hear.

Evan Nappen 18:04
I am proud to mention that this podcast is sponsored by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It is the gun rights organization for New Jersey. They are the stalwart defenders of our rights. They are currently in federal court litigating over all those vital major cases, challenging the assault weapon ban, the large capacity magazine ban, the Carry Killer bill and more. More is coming down the pike, too. This is a group that you need to be part of. Their full time paid lobbyist keeps an eye on the shenanigans in Trenton, and they put out a great newsletter. You need to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You can go to their website anjrpc.org, and you can see all the great work. You’ll get their top line newsletter, email alerts. You will know, by joining the Association, that you are a part of the solution. We all want to be part of the solution. I would hope so. That’s what you can do. It’s the minimum you can do. Join anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 19:18
I also want to mention my favorite gun range, which is WeShoot. WeShoot is another proud sponsor of Gun Lawyer, and they are a fantastic range in Lakewood, New Jersey. An indoor pistol range there. They have top trainers, a top facility with a great pro shop. They will set you up with everything you

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need for your firearm licensing. Your actual gear, whatever it is. They can help you out, and they are really friendly. They will treat you like family. Everybody who goes there loves it. I know you will, too. They’re right there in Central Jersey, Lakewood. It’s easy, right off the Parkway. They are a great resource with a top line range. You need to check out WeShoot. They are just the best.

Evan Nappen 20:19
Don’t forget that on August 9, Lieutenant Colonel “Mikey” Hartman is going to be there live, and I’m going to be there, too. I don’t want to miss Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. Remember, he was a top sniper, Master Sniper, for the IDF. He created the entire firearms training program for the IDF. He trained half a million or more soldiers. If you heard the show where I had him live on the show. I was very proud to have him on the show. What a great man. And man, you’ve got to check out his resume. You can’t believe the stuff that he’s done. He also has a great training course right online at elitemarksman.com, EliteMarksman.com. You can actually get the course that trains the IDF. And it’s a wonderful course. If you use the secret code “Gun Lawyer”, you get $100 off. That’s a special deal that he did for us. But look, it’s free to come down and meet Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. He goes by Mikey Hartman. I’m looking forward to it. I really am. So, check it out.

Evan Nappen 21:44
Last but not least, I have to shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun laws. I wrote it, and it’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It’s your roadmap to understanding New Jersey’s insanity that they call gun laws. I want you to stay safe, not committing GOFUs. It’s my whole calling in life, and this book stands as a testament to that. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition, and it is a labor of love. You can just go to EvanNappen.com and order the book right online. When you get the book, scan the front QR code there and subscribe for free, no charge whatsoever, to my database of which I keep private, by the way. I will let you know about any updates, and you can access the archives at any time. Get all the updates so the book stays current. You stay current, and you stay protected. So, pick up your copy of New Jersey Gun Law today at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 22:55
So, here’s something that I think you may find interesting. Some of you may be gamers. I know my son, Teddy, is. He loves doing the video game thing, and he’s really good at it, too. There’s a game out there that some of you may be familiar with called Borderlands. The Borderlands game is popular. There are different games that have come out under the Borderlands name. One of the things that I saw which I thought was interesting is how ammunition gets sold in that video game. There’s this guy Marcus Kincaid, if any of you are familiar with the game. Marcus Kincaid is quite the entrepreneur, a mercenary type of guy, and he set up vending machines throughout the Borderlands gamescape there. You actually buy your ammunition and guns and other things, too. But definitely ammo from Marcus’ Ammo Dump, his vending machines. One of his famous quotes is “Remember Marcus means quality at a great price.”

Evan Nappen 24:21
So, if any of you are familiar with what I’m talking about or even if you’re not, you might get a kick out of hearing that we now have, for real, in the United States, ammo vending machines. That’s right. Vending

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machines that dispense ammunition have just been put into two stores in Alabama. That’s right. It’s done by a company called American Rounds, and we’re probably going to see these popping up all over the place, except New Jersey, of course. Because New Jersey has all the added regulation including registration of ammunition purchase. But these are popping up in Free America. These two grocery stores have American Rounds there. They put them in at Fresh Value grocery stores. So, they’re in two grocery stores at the moment, and they’re apparently a very big hit with customers, particularly in Alabama. The way it works is you put your photo ID into the machine, and then the machine does a 360 degree scan to match you to the ID card. Then you can buy the ammunition you want from the vending machine, and it disperses your ammo, just like that.

Evan Nappen 25:49
So, I was thinking about this saying, wow, that’s really handy. You can just buy ammo at any time of the day or night that the food store is open. That’s pretty good, right? Twenty-four hour ammo purchase. There you go. Maybe at some point, we’re going to see these ammo vending machines at the airport. Imagine that. Now, of course, they can’t put it in the protected zone where you have to go through security, but they could have some outside security. Anyone who flies with guns and goes to different places, you get there, and oh yeah, I gotta get some ammo. So, before you exit the airport, you go to the ammo vending machine and pick up some ammo there. Maybe they’ll even start having like holsters, too, you know, other things in the vending machine. Of course, you can’t sell the guns yet in the vending machine like the video game, but you can have other accessories. Right now, these ammo vending machines are a real thing. Apparently, they’re pretty popular. One of them’ s in Tuscaloosa and the other is in Pell City. I think we’re going to see these get bigger and more popular, especially in Free America. Where you can just buy your ammunition the same way you can buy so many other things in vending machines. You’ve seen electronics purchases, right? You’ve seen everything imaginable coming out of vending machines. I even remember the old days when you bought that gumball that one day you could get ammo. Well, there you go, folks. Ammo vending machines. Gotta like it.

Evan Nappen 27:35
Then I picked up another fascinating little ditty for you. How many of you are now aware that somebody pulled France’s, the country of France, legendary sword called the “Durandal” sword. The Durandal sword was in stone, kind of like the way Excalibur for the English was in stone. Well, the Durandal sword was wedged in this stone for 1300 years. Somebody apparently pulled it out because it’s missing. It’s gone. Not only was the stone holding this sword, but they were afraid that somebody might try to steal the sword there in France, it was even chained in addition to being in the stone. It’s a 32 feet high climb to get to it, and it had a chain around it as well. Somehow, that sword vanished. Now apparently the sword is claimed to be the sword of Roland, who was an officer of Charlemagne in French epic literature. They said it belonged to Charlemagne at one point, passed through other hands and then came to Roland. It’s been a familiar sight in the town of Rocamadour. Apparently, that’s where it was. They say they feel that they’ve been stripped of a part of itself, but even if it’s legend, the destinies of our village and this sword are entwined.

Evan Nappen 29:38
So, it’s a shame to hear about the Durandal sword. You can read about this. I actually got it from “Not the Bee”. You’ve probably heard of the Babylon Bee. But there’s another part where they have “Not the

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Bee”, where they send you things that seem like it almost might qualify as a Babylon B parody, but it’s actually real stories. They apparently got it themselves from the Daily Mail Online. So, if you want to read more about the disappearance of the Durandal sword, you can check that out. (https://notthebee.com/article/frances-legendary-durandal-sword-vanishes-from-the-rock-in-which-its- been-wedged-for-1300-years)

Evan Nappen 30:20
Now, one of the favorite sections of Gun Lawyer that’s just so popular is the GOFU. The GOFU, of course, is Gun Owner Fuck Ups, and we talk about them because these are expensive lessons that certain people have learned that you get to learn for the cheap. It’s really talking about mistakes and avoiding mistakes. Keeping yourself safe and not becoming a victim of New Jersey gun law. So, I have a letter that’s going to kind of roll into what the GOFU is today. This letter is from Maryalice, and Maryalice said, Hi, Evan. In Show 183 a guy asked about using the magnetic pistol holder in his car. Your response based on law was surprising to me. I did buy one of those magnets for the purpose of mounting it in my car. It got me thinking about the ability for a woman to carry in her purse. I was having an issue trying to find a holster for my SIG Macro with the Icarus lower because of the thumb “wings”. So, in the interim, I purchased a carry purse and a fanny pack. The fanny pack will likely be on my person. However, when I’m driving, the purse is not on me but likely on the seat next to me. What is the law on this? You made a strong point of carry must be on the person. Are either of these alternatives to an on person holster legal in NJ? Also, please give a shout out to the State Police Troop B in Augusta as they approved my carry permit this week in three hours and 15 minutes from the final reference. Boy, that is pretty good. I gotta give credit there. In total, the application process from the application sent to them to receipt of approval was 12 hours. Well, congratulations. Sounds like record time. I think it is record time. But if someone has a faster one, let me know. But that’s really outstanding that you got your permit that quickly. Of course, what’s not outstanding is being limited in where we can use it and everything that the Carry Killer bill has put upon us, but we’re fighting them. That’s why you need to belong to the Association. Maryalice. Thank you for always providing interesting dialogue and for all I’ve learned from your show and the listeners’ questions.

Evan Nappen 32:42
Well, thank you for being a listener and thank you for bringing this up. So, let’s talk about this. Yes, the GOFU which Maryalice did not commit, luckily, because of listening to the show would be carrying your firearm improperly in your vehicle. We’re not like other states in New Jersey, remember that. You cannot have that gun on a magnet mount. You cannot have that gun in the console of your car. You cannot have it loaded so you can just open the console or open the glovebox like in many states you can. Nope, it does not. We’re lucky at the moment because the Association brought their case and was able to get an injunction over the Car Jacker Protection language of the Carry Killer law, which mandated that we couldn’t carry our loaded handgun at all in our motor vehicle, even with a permit, even with a New Jersey Carry Permit.

Evan Nappen 33:41
Now, we can do that. We can carry, but it has to be loaded and concealed on your person, even in the vehicle. So, the GOFU is to not make the mistake of improperly carrying in your vehicle, which luckily Maryalice did not make that mistake. She has a good question What about a purse or the fanny pack?

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Well, with a fanny pack, it should be belted around you. Therefore, it is on your person. It’s belted to you. As long as it meets the criteria for the holster, where it covers and protects the guard and holds it secure. All those things we’ve talked about in the past. You are good to go with the fanny pack around you. The purse gets a little trickier because the purse holsters are made to conceal a holster that holds the gun. Well, if you have that over your shoulder, it’s on your person and that’s good. Now, if it’s not on your person and it’s in the vehicle, we’re straying further away. I don’t want to see you become the test case of if it’s right next to you on the seat kind of leaning, touching you, right next to you. Then we have good claims to make that you still have dominion and control of it. It’s on your person or as good as on your person.

Evan Nappen 35:06
But if you put it behind you on the back seat or on the passenger seat, I mean, it’s going to end up becoming arguably a jury question on that definition, whether you met it. Remember, when we’re dealing with a jury, we have to convince 12 people who weren’t smart enough to avoid jury duty. So, your best bet is to be very careful. The fanny pack is solid when it’s on you. That’s on your person. You’re good. With the purse, you want to make sure it’s on your person, really try to achieve that. Make sure you have your permit, and make sure you remember your Duty to Disclose if you are stopped. You have to say you have the gun, and you have to have your permit and show it. Because of that, this may get tested sooner rather than later. You’ve got to mention having a gun and then your method of carry can end up getting questioned. Then you can end up being a GOFU, which you need to avoid. So, be careful. Follow those guidelines.

Evan Nappen 36:16
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 36:26
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E193_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 192-The Great NJ Carry Review Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 192SUMMARY KEYWORDS

carry, place, prohibited, gun, law, firearm, new jersey, state, prohibition, part, exemption, permit, vehicle, jersey, licensed, facility, sensitive, private property, including, educational facility

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

EvanNappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I recently heard a joke and thought I’d share it with you. Don’t hold it against me before we get into the meat of this show. It goes something like this. So, the police were summoned to the scene of a domestic violence shooting. When the cops get there, they see a woman, and they say, Ma’am, did you just shoot your husband with that 9 mm? The woman says, yes, I did. So, the police said, well, why did you do that? And she said, well, let me tell you. I just mopped the floor, and that jerk, after I’ve told him so many times, just walked across it in his dirty freakin’ boots. The officer, of course, called in to the station to tell them about this. His Lieutenant gets on the phone, and he says, say, did you arrest the woman yet? Have you placed her under arrest? The officer said no, sir. I haven’t. The Lieutenant says well, why not? Why not? He said, well, sir, the floor was still wet. So, anyway, there you go. If any of you are married, you’ll understand that one. Yeah, that’s for sure.

EvanNappen 01:47
So, I get a lot of letters, and I love getting those letters. The ask Evan about all the crazy gun laws going on in Jersey. But I’ll tell you a letter that keeps popping up, a question that keeps popping up, and I’m dedicating this show. So, here is a sample letter of the question, and we’re going to deal with this completely on this show. Here’s the question. This one’s from Barry, but I’ve gotten many other letters similar. I just need to do a show on New Jersey carry. Basically, where you can and can’t carry. Barry writes, I would like to ask you if there’s an updated list of “sensitive places”. He has my book, he looked at other information and all kinds of things, and he just wants to know. Barry, I appreciate the sentiment.

EvanNappen 02:44
Because so many folks have asked, let us review New Jersey’s “sensitive places” law so you can go back and reference on this show. Now when things change, I’m going to let you know. Because we are currently litigating this. We being the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. I’m not officially part of that litigation. But, of course, I help the Association at times, and the Association is a sponsor. I am proud to have them as a sponsor of the show. We should be seeing some results shortly. But let’s talk about what is the current situation when it comes to carrying in New Jersey. Where can you carry? Where can’t you carry? What happened was, after the Bruen decision, New Jersey flipped out, basically, and decided to have a big ol hissy fit over the case that could make it clear that their ploy that

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had stopped law-abiding citizens for over half a century from being able to carry in New Jersey. The so- called “justifiable need” trick or block that was in the law and then extrapolated, interpreted, by the court to create this standard that essentially no one could meet. You had to show urgent necessity. Urgent necessity was defined by having to demonstrate that you personally are subject to threats of serious bodily harm or death and that carrying a handgun was the only way to avert those threats. So, basically, in Jersey, you know, if you’ve just been shot and killed, you then qualified for a carry license. This ensured that it was virtually impossible to get, and there were less than 600 civilian carries. Now, since the advent of Bruen, there’s almost 40,000 or more carry licenses, and it’s growing every day.

EvanNappen 04:56
But when this law passed, the anti-Second Amendment folks, the Democrats, let’s just call it for what it is, the Democrats, couldn’t handle this. So, they said, look, we can no longer stop the issuance of permits with our old little gambit there of “justifiable need”. Let’s limit where you can use them. Let’s go at the utilitarian value of having a carry permit and try to limit it to the maximum that we can. So, they passed what we call the Carry Killer law. Now, it was challenged in federal court, and we did get an injunction over a good chunk of the provisions. Then the State appealed, and they got a stay on the injunctive relief, meaning they became effective again, until the appellate court rules on it. Now, not all of them were enjoined, not all of them got the stay removing the injunction. So, what it means is, there were still some of the lower court findings of declaration of unconstitutional that were not stayed by the Appellate Court. So, what I’m going to do today is review with you where you can’t carry. Of course, if you are not otherwise prohibited in Jersey, then under Jersey law, you’re able to carry in any other places that don’t fall under the “sensitive place” restriction. None of this is discussing federal law. We still have federal law prohibiting carry everywhere on federal buildings, etc., and the post office and what have you, even though these things are being challenged as we speak as well.

EvanNappen 06:51
So, let’s review the sensitive places as to where you cannot carry currently, right now, as of today, and what of those sensitive places are not in effect. Then we’ll talk about some other things about Jersey carry that’s important for you to know. This is like a refresher course, so you don’t end up a GOFU in Jersey’s trap that they’ve laid for unsuspecting gun owners through the Carry Killer bill. The first place where you cannot carry, and keep in mind, you are prohibited from any of the following places, including in or upon any part of the buildings, grounds, or parking areas of these places. Now, if you happen to end up having to go to one of these places, then there is a provision that we’ll discuss a little bit later that allows you to secure the firearm, your handgun, in a certain way, in those prohibited places, parking spots. But keep in mind, you cannot carry in any part of the buildings, grounds, or parking areas except for the exception that we’ll discuss a little bit.

EvanNappen 08:22
Number one, you’re banned in Jersey, barred from Jersey, even with a carry permit, from any place that’s owned, or leased or under the control of the state, county or municipal government used for the purpose of government administration, including but not limited to, police stations. So, don’t carry in a police station. Don’t carry in a firehouse. Don’t carry in City Hall. You know, no place like that, which are used for government administration. By the way, you can see these “sensitive places” in the law, and it’s under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.6. I’ll have a link on my website and on the transcript so you could go to these

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if you wish to read them for yourself. If you have my book, of course, it’s in the law itself, in the back of the book. Explanations of these things are in the chapter on Carry Permits in the book. (New Jersey Gun Law, Page 49) You really should have my book. It’s the Bible on New Jersey gun law. Just scan the front cover to subscribe, and you’ll get the updates that you can access. Any of you that have the book may in fact know what I’m going to tell you now, but it can’t hurt to review it. If you want to get a copy of the Bible, New Jersey Gun Law by yours truly, which is over 500 pages with 120 topics in a question-and-answer format, you can go to EvanNappen.com. Right there. EvanNappen.com and buy a copy of the book.

EvanNappen 09:56
Since you are a gun person, you enjoy your firearms, and you would like to enjoy using these wonderful tools. I would strongly suggest that you check out WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, and they are premier. They have a fantastic facility. You can get great training. You can get your CCARE certificate there to get your carry license. Whether you’re a beginner or an expert or in between, they have courses for you. Their training and their range are second to none. You’ll be able to have a place to shoot right there in Lakewood, Central Jersey, with easy access right off the Parkway. They will treat you like family. I want to remind you again that on August 9, Friday, August 9 from 9am in the morning to 1pm, nine to one, Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman is going to be at WeShoot. The Master IDF Sniper. You probably heard my show. I hope you did. It was a phenomenal show with Colonel Hartman, and he’s going to be there. He trained over half a million soldiers and developed the firearms program for the IDF. He was fantastic, and it was an honor to have him on the show. You don’t want to miss that. So, make sure you mark your calendar for August 9 and get down to WeShoot. Take advantage of that great resource. You can find WeShoot on the web at weshootusa.com. WeShoot is a great place, and we’re lucky to have them.

EvanNappen 11:37
The second place you cannot carry is a courthouse, a courtroom, or any other premises used to conduct judicial or court administrative proceedings or function. So, anything like that where there’s a courthouse or court room or other premises like that. This is not an uncommon prohibition throughout the country. There does seem to be a number of courthouse prohibitions. People’s emotions can run high in courthouses, particularly in New Jersey, where the law is so unbelievably unfair. So, they don’t want you carrying in a courthouse. Three, any state, county or municipal Correctional Facility, or juvenile justice facility, a jail or any other place maintained by or for government entity for the detention of criminal suspects or offenders. All right, folks. Do not carry your gun in jail. I don’t think you have to write that one down. But, yeah, that’s a prohibited place. Four, a state contracted halfway house. Now they don’t define or explain what a state contracted halfway house is. It’s not like a state contracted halfway house has a big neon sign blinking saying, “state contracted halfway house”, but don’t end up in one of them with a gun or you’re in a prohibited place.

EvanNappen 13:06
A location being used as a polling place during the conduct of an election, and places used for the storage or tabulation of ballots, or for the commission of election fraud. No, I’m just kidding about the last part. They forgot to add the election fraud place, because that’s what they’re doing anyway. But you

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cannot carry at a polling place, or places used for the conduct of an election. That place restriction is far. You cannot carry within 100 feet of a place where there’s a public gathering, a demonstration, or an event is held for which a government permit is required during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration or event. This can be tricky, because notice, you can’t be within 100 feet of a public gathering, event or whatever held where a government permit is required, but it doesn’t mean they had to get one. So, if the event is taking place illegally, but a permit should have been obtained, then it still is a prohibited place.

EvanNappen 14:22
Seven, any school, college, university or other educational institution and on any school bus. Now, we’ve had an educational facility prohibition for a while in a separate section of our law under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e. We have had educational facilities prohibited for a while, but they also added it into “sensitive places”. Now there are certain exemptions to sensitive places. But beware. The exemptions for sensitive places, such as the parking lot exemption for securing your gun, do not exempt you for an educational facility, property, school property, etc. under the 39-5 prohibition. So, you have to be very careful. You will not be able to have the exemption that we’re going to discuss later apply there because of the other law that prohibits that location.

EvanNappen 15:30
A childcare facility, including a daycare center, a nursery school, a preschool, a zoo, or a summer camp. Now, I love how in that little list, they put a zoo in there. I guess maybe a zoo does belong there given those places, but there you go. You cannot carry at a park, a beach, a recreational facility or an area owned or controlled by a state, county or local government unit or any part of such place, which is designated as a gun free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety. You know, the favorite fallback of every anti-gunner is their false claim of public safety when in fact guns make places safer, but that’s rarely a consideration in New Jersey, of course, so beware. Number eleven, youth sports event, during and immediately preceding and following the conduct of the event, except that this provision shall not apply to participants of a youth sports event which is a firearms competition. Well, that’s nice. Because if guns are banned at a youth firearms competition, it is really hard to compete with firearms. How nice.

EvanNappen 17:03
Twelve, publicly owned or leased library or museum. So, don’t go pull a “night at the museum” deal there and think you can defend yourself because that won’t fly in Jersey. A shelter for the homeless, an emergency shelter for the homeless, a basic center shelter program, a shelter for homeless or runaway youth, Children’s Shelter, child care shelter, shelter for victims of domestic violence, or any shelter licensed by or under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission or the Department of Children and Families. Wow. A lot of shelters out there that I didn’t even know existed. Don’t carry your gun at those shelters. And how are you going to know that these other shelters are under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission or the Department of Children? I don’t know. I guess you’re supposed to have like ESP or something like that. You know, I have ESP. It’s an extra stupid personality. But anyway. Fourteen, a community residence for persons with developmental disabilities, head injuries, or terminal illnesses, or any other residential setting licensed by the Department of Human Services or the

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Department of Health. So, there you go. How are you going to know it? I don’t know. But watch out for those community residences.

EvanNappen 18:38
Fifteen, a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served. And any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. So, I always get the question. What about the Bring Your Own alcohol deal? What about that? Well, look at what the first part says. A bar or restaurant where alcohol is served. Are you going to be serving out of that bottle, the alcohol that you brought? Well, lo and behold, look at what it says. So, do not carry in a bring your own place for alcohol, places where it’s served, or any other place where it’s sold for consumption. Can you bring your gun to the liquor store? Yes, because it’s not sold for consumption there. That’s the difference. But not the bar. Not the restaurant. So, beware of that. Let me also mention, by the way, we did get an injunction in the lower court, where you could carry in bars or restaurants where alcohol is served, but then it was stayed by the Appellate Court. So, now it’s back in effect. The same as the 100 feet of a public gathering which was stayed by Judge Bumb, I mean enjoined, and then that was reversed currently. So, the ban is back in place. The zoo was allowed, and now it’s not. The park and the beach and the recreational facility, that one was okay, but now it’s not.

EvanNappen 20:51
This is why it’s very important that you support our state Association, that you be a member of our state Association. There are still about 10 more of these to go through, but I just want to remind you that the Association are the folks that are battling this, as we speak. We want them to win and knock these prohibitions out so that we can remain defenders and not victims in these places. So, you should join the Association. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They’re battling the assault firearm ban, so-called, which is really just modern sporting rifles, of course, and the standard capacity magazine ban. We should see some movement on all these cases shortly. My good friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter, is spearheading those efforts. He, too, is a proud member of the state Association, and so should you. Go to anjrpc.org and join today. ANJRPC.org.

EvanNappen 21:58
It is a prohibited place under number 16 to carry your handgun, even with a carry permit, at a class five cannabis retailer or medical cannabis dispensary, including any consumption areas licensed or permitted by the cannabis regulatory commission. So, do not carry your gun at a weed shop. Now, of course, New Jersey can blatantly violate federal law and allow for the sale where they become, because you know they get a piece of it, one of the largest drug dealers in the country. That’s okay. But don’t you carry your gun there where they’re blatantly breaking federal law. Make sure you don’t do that. Seventeen, a privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility within this state, including but not limited to, a theater, a stadium, a museum, an arena, a racetrack or other place where performances, concerts, exhibits, games or contests are held. Those are still prohibited places. The Association in its lawsuit knocked that one out, but the Appellate Division put it back in, temporarily. The battle is ongoing. So, maybe we’ll knock that one out. Again, I believe we will, and I hope so. But for now, be careful. Don’t violate it. Don’t be a GOFU.

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EvanNappen 23:40
Eighteen, a casino and related facilities, including but not limited to, the appurtenant hotels, retail premises, restaurant and bar facilities, and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property. This might even include marinas, if they are casino property. So, be aware of that. This, too, was stayed/enjoined. So, it’s back in effect. But even with that, the casinos banded together, and privately they all decided to ban guns from the premises. So, I would not give any business to New Jersey casinos. They are anti-gun. It’s that simple, folks. Why do you give your money to any organization that opposes your Second Amendment rights? Don’t do it. You want to gamble? Go for it. Just not in a New Jersey casino. Screw them.

EvanNappen 24:43
Nineteen, a plant or operation that produces, converts, distributes or stores energy, or converts one form of energy to another. Boy, is that broad enough? What the hell are they even talking about? What? If you’re standing next to a solar panel or something? I have no clue. But plainly power plant energy, whatever. I mean, what if you’re charging your Tesla? Is it a problem? I don’t know. It’s so broad, overbroad, there that it’s ridiculous. But there you go. Twenty, an airport or public transportation hub is prohibited. Twenty-one, a health care facility, including but not limited to a general hospital, special hospital, a psychiatric hospital, a public health center, diagnostic center, a treatment center, a rehabilitation center, an extended care facility, a skilled nursing home, a nursing home. So, what’s that? An unskilled nursing home. I don’t know. Intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital, chronic disease hospital, maternity hospital, an outpatient clinic, a dispensary, that’s like a drugstore. Beware. Assisted living center, home health care agency, residential treatment facility, residential health care facility, medical office, or ambulatory care facility.

EvanNappen 26:15
So, you cannot go to your doctor’s office with your gun. What if you go into CVS? There’s a dispensary there in the back. Well, in the litigation, it was determined that it’s only the part that’s a sensitive place. So, if you go into CVS, but you don’t go to the drugstore part, the pharmacy part, then you’re okay. The rest of CVS is not prohibited. But the dispensary is. Now what about medical offices? What if you’re a doctor and you want to carry? Many doctors do because they’re targets not just for money, but possibly even for drugs that they may have. Can a doctor carry in their own medical office? The answer to that is yes, because of one of the exemptions to sensitive places. One of the exemptions are the classic old exemptions under N.J.S. 2C:39-6, particularly subsection e., which exempts one’s home and/or place of business. So, if you are a doctor and it is your medical office that you own, then you’re able to carry under that exemption in your place of business. That exempts you from the sensitive place prohibition. So, keep that in mind. But if it’s not your office, if you don’t own it, then you cannot carry there.

EvanNappen 27:51
Twenty-two, a facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services, Department of Children and Families, or Department of Health, other than a health care facility, that provides addiction or mental health treatment or support services. So, you’re banned. You’re barred from carrying your gun. Twenty-three, a public location being used for making motion picture or television images for theatrical, commercial, or educational purposes during the time such location has been used for that purpose. So, when they banned as a sensitive place having guns at motion picture and television

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locations, we call that the Alec Baldwin prohibition. And of course, throughout all that hysteria was why they put it in, but Judge Bumb issued an injunction on that, and it was not disturbed by the Appellate Division because, frankly, New Jersey realized that in their zest in doing this, they were hurting Hollywood, their buddies in Hollywood, you know, those huge Democrat donors. So, they’re happy that that one is no longer in effect and has remained not in effect. So, there you go. Alec is free in New Jersey to have his gun there if he’s making a movie. Unless, of course, he becomes a convicted felon over his problem.

EvanNappen 29:32
Twenty-four, private property is a prohibited place. I’m going to explain how this works. Private property including but not limited to, residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural, institutional or undeveloped property, unless the owner has provided express consent or has posted a sign indicating that it is permissible to carry on the premises a concealed handgun with a valid and lawfully issued permit under N.J.S. 2C:58-4, provided that nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to affect the authority to keep or carry a firearm established under subsection e. of N.J.S. 2C:39-6 exemption, and that’s possession in one’s home. So, here, it looks like all private property is prohibited unless there’s some sign that says we love guns, come on in. Otherwise, we were barred. However, that’s not the case. Because in the litigation, Judge Bumb issued a stay on this, and then it got modified so that the current state of that exemption rolls as follows. When it comes to private property, the question is, is the private property open to the public or not? If the private property is open to the public, then you don’t need a sign. You don’t need advanced permission. As long as the private property is not otherwise a “sensitive place” and you have a carry permit, you can carry your handgun there. So, you can walk into that convenience store, even though it’s a private property owned by a business, you can walk into the convenience store with your gun. Not a problem. You can do that because it’s open to the public.

EvanNappen 31:32
But what if you’re going to your friend’s house? Well, that’s not open to the public. So, your friend had better have given you permission to have your gun there or have that sign out there. You know, the “we love guns” sign. If not, don’t carry on private property that is not open to the public. That’s how the private property “sensitive place” currently operates. Now, some of you may say, well, what about if I go to a store and it says, no guns? The opposite, no guns, or it has one of those dopey signs from the Attorney General. We don’t want any guns here. Well, what happens there is this is. It is not a sensitive place to carry where there is a no gun sign, but it is a trespass if you do. Because property owners have the right over their property, to the degree permitted by law to say who can come on their property, even private property owned by commercial establishment. They can say, for example, you know, if you don’t have shoes on, we don’t want you in here, or no dogs allowed except for service animals. Well, when they say no guns, it falls into that same category, and if you ignore that no guns sign, then you can be charged with trespass. So, beware of that little nuance on that one. Twenty-five, any other place in which the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by statute or rule or regulation promulgated by a federal or state agency. Good, I hope, you know every single rule and reg ever promulgated by the federal or state government. Because that’s what that one is saying. Yeah, just a little overbroad. Now, those are the official 25 sensitive places.

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EvanNappen 33:49
What if you end up in a parking lot of one of those “sensitive places” and you’re carrying. What do you do? Well, if you’re not within that N.J.S. 2C:39-6e. exemption or you’re not within an exemption because you’re law enforcement under subsection a. or retired law enforcement under subsection l. of N.J.S. 2C:39-6 or law enforcement under subsection c., then if you’re carrying in a vehicle, there are things you need to know. The exemption to sensitive places is one thing when you get in the parking lot. But there’s also a vehicle standalone prohibition that’s not part of the big 25, and this causes other confusion. The vehicle prohibition said that if you are carrying even with a permit to carry, you were not allowed to carry your permitted handgun loaded on your person in your own vehicle. We called that the Car Jacker Protection law because that’s all it was doing. This was prohibiting you from defending yourself and your loved ones from crime occurring while in your vehicle or while you’re driving your vehicle, etc. However, that entire vehicle prohibition, which is that stand alone, not part of the 25, but still a prohibited place, if you will, that was stayed by Judge Bumb, and has remained in place. So, what it means is you can carry your permitted handgun loaded, concealed on your person in your vehicle. It is allowed.

EvanNappen 35:56
The problem is folks who read that don’t realize it. I recently learned of a situation where a person was attacked in their vehicle. They had locked their gun up in the vehicle thinking that they weren’t allowed to have it on them in their vehicle. They were beaten to inches within their death. Whereas if that law was not there confusing and stopping people, that person would not have been viciously assaulted and almost killed. So, you can carry in your vehicle as long as you’re licensed to do so, but it needs to be loaded and holstered on your person. Don’t have it in the console. Don’t have it in one of those vehicle holsters. Carry it as you would outside of your vehicle, loaded and concealed on your person. That is the way to do it.

EvanNappen 36:51
Now, when you’re in that parking lot of a “sensitive place”, the exemption allows you to transport it to that parking lot. Then while you’re in that parking area, you can put your handgun unloaded and contained in a closed and securely fastened case, gun box, or locked unloaded in the trunk. Now, what I recommend is, if you have invested in your carry gun, your training, your CCARE, you listen to this show, all that great stuff, your time and your money, buy the proper car gun transport container. One where it cables to the bottom of your seat with a steel cable and is a lockbox. Unload your gun, lock it in the box, and slide the box under the seat. It is now secured. You are a responsible gun owner. Not only do you meet the criteria under the law for that narrow exemption when you enter a sensitive place, but you also have secured your gun from theft and demonstrated the responsibility that you undertake. It’s in your own best interest to do it as well. So, make sure you have one of those boxes in your car, and make sure you can always secure your gun properly. In case you have to go in an emergency to a healthcare facility, you can secure it etc., anything like that. It’s very important that you do that and not end up as a GOFU.

EvanNappen 38:32
So, folks, those are the key prohibited places. Keep in mind that the sensitive places that are still blocked. The sensitive places that are no longer prohibiting you includes loaded in your car to fight off

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carjackers, private property as I’ve explained how that split works, and public film locations. If you’re Alec Baldwin, keep that in mind. This is how it works. The others that were knocked out, but then temporarily reinstated. Hopefully, those and many others of these outrageous prohibitions on us, will go. It’s your state Association that is spearheading that litigation to expand our ability to carry and defend ourselves in New Jersey. To not be victims, but instead be defenders.

EvanNappen 39:47
Although we talked about a lot of things here, I still have a special GOFU to share with you, and this GOFU is actually from a letter. It’s from Ed. Ed says, just listened to your podcast about the assault shotgun requirement. I bought a Beretta 1301. The store told me that since the gun has a three-inch chamber and can only take 6 three-inch rounds that it’s legal. The gun will take seven, 2 3/4-inch rounds. But I was told not to do that and that I will be okay. They said they got this information from the state police. Any input? Yes, there is a legal term that completely addresses that advice that you were given, and that legal term is bullshit. Okay? And here’s why, folks. New Jersey’s assault firearm law is very clear. It says in the statutory part that you cannot have a semi-automatic shotgun with a magazine capacity that exceeds six rounds. It also cannot have a folding stock. It cannot have a pistol grip. Six rounds are the limit on the semi- automatic shotgun.

EvanNappen 41:20
When you go to the Beretta website, it says it has, and this is from the Beretta’s website, a factory magazine capacity of seven plus one. (https://www.beretta.com/en-us/product/1301-tactical-FA0004) Now, forget the plus one part. It says seven and six is the limit. Seven is more than six. I don’t care if it can also take a three-inch chamber round and hold less, or a three-and-a-half-inch chamber and can hold less. It will fit and function with two and three quarters, and it holds seven. It’s an assault firearm in New Jersey. But don’t worry, all you’re risking is 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory three and a half years – no chance of parole. For following that bullshit advice. That’s all. Yeah, that’s why it’s a GOFU, folks. So, please, don’t be the next GOFU, especially on that Beretta.

EvanNappen 42:31
This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 42:41
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E192_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 191-Guns and Penises Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 191SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, new jersey, guns, carry, law, gun owner, gun ownership, gun, automatic shotgun, renewal, required, assault, permit, bayonet mount, requirement, semi, insurance, shotguns, put, criteria

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you may have heard. It’s kind of like a thing that the anti-gunners and folks, particularly feminists, arguably radical feminist, like to push this a lot. They like to say that men who like guns, oh, they’re compensating for their small penises. Right? You’ve probably heard that BS out there before about that. Well, what’s really interesting is somebody’s group, an anti-gun group, believe it or not, decided to actually research that topic. Yes. They are going to decide and see if, you know, how do guns play out in terms of sexual satisfaction for gun owners? This is from an article by one of my favorite authors, who I’ve mentioned before, Dean Weingarten at AmmoLand. You should all subscribe to AmmoLand. It’s a free service, and they’ll send you the daily news feed.

Evan Nappen 01:49
This article is about that very research on those who own guns. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/06/research-finds-men-who-own-guns-have-greater-sexual- satisfaction/#axzz8dtg6VuAi) What’s really interesting about this research is that it shows a significant correlation between the possession of guns and a man’s satisfaction with his sexual equipment. That’s right. That’s right. So, as the antis like to put out there this other opposite view, it’s really a fantasy and a falsehood that they’re putting out there about this situation. For example. Dean Weingarten in the article quotes the Huffington Post, right the HuffPost, which is a known left wing site. In the article from the HuffPost in 2016, “the compulsion to own firearms stems from an unconscious need to compensate for a deep-seated psychological sense of insecurity and inadequacy in terms of power: in males, specifically for having a small or smaller-than-desired penis.”

Evan Nappen 03:23
Well, guess what? Researchers decided to actually test this to see if this in fact is true. They decided

to investigate it. This research and all was funded by a group that wants to disarm the American population. It was financially supported by an organization called “Change the Ref”, whose “mission is shifting America’s social response to gun violence. . .”, there you go, “gun violence”, not criminal violence, of course. You know that same old BS, “gun violence”. “. . . by uniting creativity, activism, disruption, and education.” The researchers state that although “Change the Ref” has a clear anti-gun stance, it had no role in the planning or implementation of the study. And I gotta say, I guess that’s actually true. Because this study was published in the American Journal of Men’s Health.

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Evan Nappen 04:35
Guess what they found out, folks? Exactly the opposite, the opposite. They found that the more male gun owners were satisfied with their penis size, the more they were likely to own guns, to own more guns, and to own military-style rifles. That’s right. The more guns, particularly the more so-called assault firearms you own, the more satisfied you are with your penis size, sexuality, and sexual performance. Imagine that. Yep. And what’s interesting here is Mr. Weingarten quotes from the study, a nice little abstract here, in which the study said, “we formally examine the association between penis size dissatisfaction and gun ownership in America. The primary hypothesis, derived from the psychosexual theory of gun ownership, asserts that men who are more dissatisfied with the size of their penises will be more likely to personally own guns. To test this hypothesis, we used data collected from the 2023 Masculinity, Sexual Health, and Politics (MSHAP) survey, a national probability sample of 1,840 men, and regression analysis to model personal gun ownership as a function of penis size dissatisfaction, experiences with penis enlargement, social desirability, masculinity, body mass, mental health, and a range of sociodemographic characteristics.”

Evan Nappen 06:42
“We find that men who are more dissatisfied with the size of their penises are less likely to personally own guns across outcomes, including any gun ownership, military-style rifle ownership, and total number of guns owned. The inverse association between penis size dissatisfaction and gun ownership is linear; however, the association is weakest among men ages 60 and older. With these findings in mind, we failed to observe any differences in personal gun ownership between men who have and have not attempted penis enlargement. To our knowledge, this is the first study to formally examine the association between penis size and personal gun ownership in America. Our findings fail to support the psychosexual theory of gun ownership.” Imagine that! This garbage put out by the other side, the anti- Second Amendment crowd, to try to disparage men who own guns by saying that they have small manhood and are dissatisfied. And it’s just the opposite. As a matter of fact, the guys that are most satisfied own the most guns and own military style rifles.

Evan Nappen 08:26
Now, let me just say, I’ve already come out on this program in the past as being an ammosexual, and I know that most of my listeners are ammosexuals. But now ammosexuality has even another bonus. Because if you love guns, if you are a zealous advocate for the Second Amendment, and if you are an ammosexual who has come out, well, I guess you’re also declaring that you are satisfied with your sexuality and your penis size. And in fact, you’re damn proud of it. The more guns and the more assault firearm guns you have, the better for you. So, I just want to go on the record today, folks, and say, I own a lot of guns. Yes, I do. And I own a lot of military-style firearms. Yeah. And I own a Barrett 50. So, what does that tell you? I don’t know. But it’s out there. And I’m sure you can all now take pride in not only all the guns that you own, but what it actually means. So, don’t let those misinformed folks ever tell you otherwise, because the scientific studies are out there, telling us, of course, what we all already knew.

Evan Nappen 10:10

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Since you are a gun person and you enjoy your firearms and are proud to be an ammosexual and you would like to enjoy using these wonderful tools, I would strongly suggest that you check out WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, and they have fantastic facility. You can get great training. You can get your CCARE certificate there to get your carry license. Whether you’re a beginner, an expert, or in between, they have courses for you, and their range is second to none. You’ll be able to have a place to shoot right there in Central Jersey, easy access, right off the Parkway. They will treat you like family.

Evan Nappen 11:14
I want to remind you again that on August 9, August 9, at 9am in the morning, nine to one, WeShoot will have Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman who is going to be there live. The master IDF (Israel Defense Forces) sniper. You probably heard my show. I hope you did. It was a phenomenal show with Colonel Hartman. He’s going to be there at WeShoot. He trained over half a million soldiers and developed the firearms program for the IDF. He is fantastic. It was an honor to have him on the show, and you don’t want to miss meeting him. So, make sure you mark your calendar for August 9 and get down to WeShoot. Take advantage of that great resource. You can find WeShoot on the web at weshootusa.com WeShootusa.com They have a great website with phenomenal photography. They pride themselves in their photography. You’ll love it. WeShoot is a great place, and we’re lucky to have them.

Evan Nappen 12:25
I also want to talk to you about the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights group for New Jersey. Their members are super important to the fight for our gun rights, and their members are also gun owners. And you know what that means now, don’t you? Well, you need to join! Make sure that you’re a part of the solution. They’re the folks that are in the courts as we speak on major cases. We should see some outcome very shortly on the assault firearm ban, where New Jersey banned assault firearms. They are trying to stop us from having greater sexual satisfaction, obviously, by that ban. And that’s being challenged. The ban on large capacity magazines, notice the emphasis on “large capacity” magazines. We have the Carry Killer bill, again, trying to stop us from exercising and utilizing our right to have a gun and carry it. These are the things that the Association does and more. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, who is constantly on the alert for any of the shenanigans they’re trying to pull down there. They have a great newsletter, the best in the state. You’ll get the email alerts, and you’ll be able to take action. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs at anjrpc.org. ANJRPC.org

Evan Nappen 14:20
You also need to have the Bible of New Jersey gun law. That is my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages. I wonder if having a big gun law book also means that you are extremely endowed and have a great sex life. I think it does mean that. I think I can vouch for that, but whatever. You want to get a hold of Evan’s book, New Jersey Gun Law. It will help you navigate the matrix of New Jersey gun laws so that you don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun law. It will keep you legal. Get your copy, get it today. Go to my website, EvanNappen.com. You can order your copy of New Jersey Gun Law at EvanNappen.com.

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Evan Nappen 15:26
Now, I got some great letters, and there’s kind of a repeating subject that has come up lately. And that subject is as follows. This is from Fedde. Fedde says, my New Jersey carry renewal is January 2025. Do I need to requalify with my handgun? Also, what is the rule for guns I can carry after renewal? So, what about the gun renewal? Then I have another letter of which there are many other letters. This one’s from an instructor by the way, Bob. He’s a New Jersey certified CCW instructor. My earliest students are now calling me and asking what they have to do to renew their permits. Has Trenton put out a clear set of requirements for permit renewal? Could you please do a podcast about this, so my students and I will know what is required. I tell all my students to subscribe to your podcast AND they are required to listen to show #157 (NJ Carry – What You Must Know Now) as part of my course.

Evan Nappen 16:33
Well, thank you, Bob. That show is important and may be deserved to be repeated every so often for new subscribers until the courts change the stupid rules. When they change the stupid rules, I’ll do a show about that. So, what about renewals? What about carry permit renewals? There are some important things I want you to know about renewals. I’ve been seeing even cases where issuing authorities don’t know the rules. Judges don’t know the rules. Let’s talk about the basics, right away, about the CCARE. So, the CCARE Certificate is your qualification that you must have to get your carry permit. How long is a CCARE Certificate valid for? Do you have to retake CCARE every time you do a renewal? Or is it something that is not necessary every time? What’s the rule? What’s the standard? What’s the law?

Evan Nappen 17:50
Well, let me give you it with specificity. I’m not just going to tell you what it is. I’m going to tell you where it is and exactly what it says so that you will know for a fact. Now, in summary, even before I give you that law, the bottom line is this. If your CCARE Certificate is less than two years old and you’re renewing your carry permit, it is valid. You do not have to get a new CCARE certification. Now you will find this, specifically, in case you need it, under N.J.S. 2C:58-4. (Permits to carry handguns.), and it is under sub section d., small letter D for dog, (3). N.J.S. 2C:58-4.d.(3)

Evan Nappen 18:55
I’ll read it for you. It says under the requirements, (3) has completed the training requirements established pursuant to subsection g. of this section, provided that any requirements for classroom instruction and target training shall not be required for a renewal applicant who completed the instruction and training when obtaining a permit to carry a handgun issued within the previous two years;” There you have it, folks. It’s not required for you to do it again if you’ve completed it within the previous two years. So, don’t be told otherwise. That’s the law. That’s the fact, and you have the statute. You now know exactly where it says it. Do not go and retake it, unless you want to. But there’s no requirement to do so. I’m now hearing that some departments are saying, oh, we will accept it if it’s less than six months old. Oh, yeah? Well, I’ll tell you the legal answer to that. It’s called bullshit. Okay? No. No, it’s two years. Read the law. Follow the law. Make believe that’s your job. Okay? Because there it is, in black and white. There is no ambiguity there whatsoever, folks. None whatsoever. So, don’t get pushed around on that one.

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Evan Nappen 20:43
Let me just say this. I recently received a call from somebody who fought their denial for their permit. The judge agreed to grant the permit. Now, I didn’t represent this person in this court, but I may represent them after this. The judge ordered the issuance of his permit. However, the judge demanded that they have proof of insurance, proof of insurance, which is absolutely not required. Now, the statute, the carry killer statute, under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.3 mandated liability insurance. But the liability insurance mandate was enjoined, an injunction was granted against that law by Judge Bumb in Federal court. Even on the appeal that is now pending, that was not disturbed. That was not stayed. In other words, the injunction is still in place, as we speak. There is no insurance requirement by way of injunction brought by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC). There’s no requirement to have liability insurance. In fact, the liability insurance that New Jersey required can’t even be issued, because they are demanding that the insurance company insure an intentional act. Insurance companies don’t insure against intentional acts. They don’t insure if someone purposely kills somebody or shoots somebody. It’s not an accident. It’s not negligence. It’s an intentional act. The law required that for the insurance is outrageous and wrong, and no company can even provide it. But it’s been stayed.

Evan Nappen 23:07
Of course, the irony of the whole damn thing is that you may remember. A number of years ago before the carry permit law, Governor Murphy got up there and said, I’m going to, by executive order, ban gun owner protection insurance, that some companies like NRA. Remember the Carry Guard fiasco, where they were doing gun owner insurance? Murphy banned that by executive order, saying, I’m not going to allow murder insurance in New Jersey. That’s what he called it. Murder insurance. However, it isn’t murder insurance. Those are gun owner protection programs, nothing to do with murder insurance. But what does he sign in the Carry Killer bill? A law requiring actual murder insurance, which no insurance company will actually provide. These people are unbelievable. It’s just insanity here.

Evan Nappen 24:15
But luckily, a great Federal judge like Judge Bumb enjoined the liability insurance requirement. Liability insurance is not required. It cannot be required. It’s unconstitutional to require it as per the Federal court. So, in this case, where the judge has mandated this, it is flat out wrong. He cannot require something that is blatantly unconstitutional and found so in Federal court. And something particularly that is unobtainable to begin with. So, this is, of course, what we have to constantly deal with in New Jersey, and it never ends.

Evan Nappen 25:03
Now I did get another letter wondering and asking about whether you can carry in state parks. Apparently, some other websites may list that you can do this or there’s confusion. Let me just straighten it out now right now. You see there is some confusion here. The bottom line is that you should not carry in state parks because under the sensitive places’ restrictions, at the moment, we’re fighting this. But under number three of sensitive places, parks and other recreational spaces, including locations where children congregate, but it’s not limited to those locations, parks and other recreational spaces are currently a sensitive place that you are prohibited from carry. So, don’t make that mistake and carry in state parks, until we get the outcome from the current Association of New Jersey Rifle &

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Pistol Clubs’ litigation that is ongoing. Hopefully we’ll knock out all, if not most, of those sensitive places which were designed to limit our ability to lawfully defend ourselves. So that we are not victims of crime, but rather defenders against crime. And that’s really the key.

Evan Nappen 27:02
Every week, of course, on the show I do the GOFU. A very popular segment the GOFU. The GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. The reason we talk about GOFUs is these are expensive lessons, mistakes, problems, that others experience, and you can learn from them on the cheap. You learn from them for free by listening to Gun Lawyer. So, this week’s GOFU is an actual case. I’ve come across it a number of times, and it has to do with what shotguns are prohibited under the assault firearm ban. It’s currently being challenged, but we haven’t killed it yet. So, you still have to be very careful.

Evan Nappen 27:55
Now, when it comes to shotguns, there’s a different criteria than the compliant criteria that you might think of with rifles. Because the rifle criteria, as we’ve discussed many times, involves having more than one offending criteria. The arbitrary features that the Government has somehow decided makes a gun intrinsically evil. This includes a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor, a threaded barrel, a pistol grip, a telescoping or folding stock, or the ever popular grenade launcher. I know you’re all going out grenade launching this weekend. Those are the features that apply to rifles that are semi-automatic and accept detachable magazine.

Evan Nappen 28:52
But it’s a completely different criteria for shotguns. Now this particular individual actually purchased a shotgun that was a semi-automatic shotgun from a dealer in New Jersey. Others as well. I’ve heard from other dealers and other problems. Here’s the deal. When it comes to semi- automatic shotguns in New Jersey, you are prohibited from having a semi-automatic shotgun with any one of the following features. It’s not a two-feature deal like with rifles. If you have a semi-auto shotgun and you have any one of these features, then it’s an assault firearm under the current law. Those features are one of three features, and any one of these makes it verboten.

Evan Nappen 29:44
First feature, if it has a pistol grip. So, any semi-automatic shotgun with a pistol grip is an assault firearm. Period. Any semi-automatic shotgun with a folding stock is an assault firearm. Any semi- automatic shotgun with a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds is an assault firearm. That’s right, folks. If that tube on your shotgun holds over six rounds, then that alone makes it an assault firearm. There are a number of semi-auto shotguns that hold over six rounds.

Evan Nappen 30:36
Now to add further to the confusion. If you actually read through the Attorney General Guidelines, the ’96 guidelines with the compliant factors that we just talked about for rifles, they have a section about shotguns. When the Attorney General promulgated that guideline, he just took verbatim the 1994 Crime Bill, you know, the bill that was a crime, but anyway. They took that criteria and said no, this is what substantially identical means under Jersey law, which was an absurdity because the Federal law wasn’t passed till four years after the Jersey law was passed.

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Evan Nappen 31:16
But anyway, when he cited that he went with the federal definition under the crime bill which has since expired in 2004. It’s been dead ever since then, but not in New Jersey because we adopted that as our definition of “substantially identical”. This says five rounds but that is flat out wrong. It’s not five. It’s six. New Jersey’s statute says six. If you have a semi-automatic shotgun and it holds over six rounds, you’ve got a problem. You’re looking at a potential charge of assault firearm and that is extraordinarily serious. Ten years in State Prison, minimum mandatory three and a half years, no chance of parole, no exception. So, beware. You don’t want to have that GOFU on you.

Evan Nappen 32:08
Now, let me just also say that if you have a pump action shotgun, a Mossberg 590, for example, a pump action. The assault firearm semi-auto shotgun criteria does not apply. You can have a pump shotgun, like a Mossberg 590, and it can hold nine shots. No problem. It can have a folding stock, no problem. It can have a pistol grip, no problem. It can have a heat shield, no problem. It can have a bayonet mount, no problem. You can put all the whistles and bells you want on your pump action shotgun. You can get a 590, you know the M590A1, the military issue one, that has a heat shield, that has a bayonet mount, and you can lock in an M7 bayonet or an M9 bayonet that fits an AR right on it. You can have that heat shroud, have nine shots, have a pistol grip and a folding stock, and you are 100% legal in New Jersey for that gun. Because it’s a pump action. You can trick out your 870 the same way. Why? Because it’s a pump. You want to make your Ithaca 37? No problem. It’s a pump. Any pump shotgun. Not a problem. Not an assault firearm But with semi-auto shotguns, be careful. Don’t be a GOFU. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:22
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in his broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E191_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 190-Gun Unsafety GroupsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 190SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, firearm, new jersey, law, rifle, put, safety, immediate family members, dealer, folks, rights, transfer, muzzleloader, mikey, guns, disclose, lieutenant colonel, switchblade, idf, state

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, these anti-gun groups, the entire anti-gun propaganda movement, no longer go forward saying they’re anti-gun. They don’t say they want to take away the Second Amendment, even though they do. In fact, they’re going to have to push that, given the trifecta of wins in the Supreme Court. But what they try to put out there to soft sell their radical anti- rights agenda is gun safety. We just want gun safety laws. Gun safety. I mean, they don’t know jack about gun safety. They think any gun law that takes away gun rights is somehow enhancing gun safety. But that’s not what gun safety is about. Gun Safety is about the safe handling of firearms. Not the banning of firearms. Not taking away our rights to possess guns and defend ourselves and carry guns and to do all those things lawfully. That has nothing to do with gun safety. So, they don’t actually do training courses. They don’t actually put forward materials on gun safety, but this is what they promote. They call it gun safety, and then sell their destruction of our rights under that banner. Then their cohorts in the media will run with it and say, oh, a Gun Safety Group wants to do this or that.

Evan Nappen 02:00
So, this I found particularly rich and delightful. And that was what happened in Maine. Now this is from an article written by Dean Weingarten, who’s one of my favorite gun writers. You can find him on AmmoLand. His articles are always excellent. I always love what Dean writes, and I’m a big fan of Dean Weingarten. So, if you want to read his stuff, and I would strongly recommend that you do, subscribe to AmmoLand Shooting Sports News. (https://www.ammoland.com/) Every day they will send you a news feed of the top gun stories, and a lot of it is original material from great writers. Dean is one of them. In this article, it’s entitled “Gun Control Group has Negligent Discharge at Police Station.” (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/06/gun-control-group-has-negligent-discharge-at-police- station/#axzz8dEjicRrE) This is just hilarious. Luckily, no one was injured or wouldn’t be so funny.

Evan Nappen 03:13
But this anti-gun organization known as Humanium Metal, I’m not kidding, this is their libtard name for their group. Humanium Metal was destroying firearms at a Maine Police Department at Old Orchard Beach. The firearms were collected as part of a push by a disarmament group, an anti-2A disarmament group, called, ready for this, folks? The Maine Gun Safety Coalition. Of course, they put gun safety in their name. They’re out to get our rights, take them away, etc. So, the Maine Gun Safety Coalition, while in the process of destruction, one of the firearms discharged! That’s right. So much for gun safety

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for the Maine Gun Safety Coalition. Not that they actually do anything about or even know anything about Gun Safety. They’re just the Gun Safety Coalition so they can sell us their garbage in taking away all right. So, what happened was this. The Humanium Metal organization was working with the Maine Gun Safety Coalition, which is basically the Maine anti-gun coalition, and they were destroying firearms (collected by local Maine police departments). Folks who turned in their guns and wanted to have a safe disposal, safe disposal. Apparently, the Humanium Metal group doesn’t know what the hell they’re doing, because a muzzleloading firearm that was turned in for destruction, that they had to destruct, discharged!

Evan Nappen 05:13
So, what they do is they use a chop saw in destroying perfectly fine firearms, somehow thinking they’re doing good by doing this. On one hand, they are doing good by doing it because the less used guns there are, it means more new guns get sold by manufacturers and dealers. It does, in that regard at least, help the firearms business in America. I mean, on the other hand, it’s sad to see any gun destroyed. It’s kind of like the effect after the war, when America dumped its surplus jeeps and all kinds of army surplus into the ocean or otherwise destroyed it so they wouldn’t ruin the business of manufacturing. They didn’t want to harm that. So, they got rid of all this fine equipment, so that manufacturers could continue to do business and make money. So, I guess, inadvertently, they’re aiding the gun industry. And for that, I’m glad. But, of course, their approach is to make this political statement, and they use the cover of gun safety.

Evan Nappen 06:23
You know, when you have a muzzleloader, the charge in a muzzleloader is black powder. Those of you who know, if you don’t shoot your muzzleloader, the charge remains in the gun. There are even devices made using gas, like co2 or other propellants, that you can blow out a charge you haven’t used. Otherwise, you may have to use a rod with a screw on the end of it. You know, those screw jagged deals, so you can pull out the lead ball. It’s kind of a pain, but that’s another way. There are other ways. Even if you have a charge in the muzzleloader, if you don’t have a flint or a percussion cap in it, then it won’t normally fire if you pull the hammer because there’s no way to initiate the charge. But here, whoever had this muzzleloader, didn’t bother to check it. As many of you know, when you have a muzzleloader, you take out the ramrod, and you drop the ramrod down the barrel and see if it goes all the way to the breech block. If the ramrod doesn’t go to the breech block, that is a good indication that the muzzleloader has a charge in it.

Evan Nappen 07:46
Apparently, the Maine Gun Safety Coalition doesn’t know about safety with firearms and muzzleloaders. When they took the chop saw, it says here, I’m quoting from the AmmoLand article, Old Orchard Beach Police Department press release, “As one of the firearms was being cut the weapon discharged expelling around through the barrel. The round was found to have struck two unoccupied vehicles within the parking lot. Through initial investigation the involved weapon was identified as a muzzle loader style rifle. It was determined that the heat from the cutting tool ignited gun powder still left within the barrel which discharged the round.” So much for their fraud of gun safety. Anytime you hear those words about some group pushing “gun safety”, immediately ask yourself, Is this just an anti- gun group using the cover of gun safety to sell their garbage and their destruction of our rights? Or is it

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a bona fide organization that actually promotes gun safety, trains people in gun safety, teaches gun safety, and is themselves familiar with gun safety. So, don’t fall for that trap.

Evan Nappen 09:15
Interestingly, just switching gears, Knife Rights, the national group that fights for our knife rights. (https://kniferights.org/) Remember the Second Amendment isn’t the right to keep and bear guns. It’s the right to keep and bear arms, and knives are arms. Well, Knife Rights has been fighting a challenge to the Federal Switchblade Act (FSA). We’ve talked about it on the show before. They brought it on Second Amendment grounds, and they filed it in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Texas. That’s where they started the lawsuit, and I’ve never seen anything like it before. It’s actually bizarre. As Doug Ritter, who’s been on the show, said, “sometimes, an unexpected setback can actually create a win of sorts, but that’s not the end of it by a long shot.” So, what the court did here is really strange. The Knife Rights challenge was dismissed by the Court because the U.S. Attorney General and the Department of Justice declared that they do not enforce the Federal Switchblade Act, and haven’t done so since 2010, and that the Act is dying, obsolescent, moribund, a statute with no credible threat of future enforcement. (https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/court-opines-feds-wont- enforce-the-fsa-and-dismisses-knife-rights-case/)

Evan Nappen 11:05
Can you believe this? The reason they dismissed a Second Amendment challenge to a standing Federal law is because they’re saying, hey, look, we don’t really enforce it and haven’t enforced it since 2010. Therefore, your Second Amendment challenge is mooted out here. I mean, that’s just astounding. The law is still on the books, and it still can be prosecuted at any time. I tell you, if anybody gets charged with the Federal Switchblade Act, you need to tell the prosecutor that you guys don’t enforce this anymore. So, you better drop the charges against me. Because in pleadings to the U.S. District Court, the U.S. Attorney General and Department of Justice said they don’t enforce it anymore.

Evan Nappen 11:58
So, you know, I’ve had cases where this has been attempted. Now, I was able to win. I fought switchblade cases, etc. But let me tell you this, folks. I’ve never seen that argument as a reason to dismiss a Second Amendment challenge. A claim that a Federal law on the books, that’s been on the books since the 1950s, that has been enforced multiple times, but apparently, according to them, not since 2010. But it was surely enforced before that. I remember the Edge Company, they were one of the early ones selling automatic knives through the mail, and such. They came down on them like a ton of bricks. They’ve stopped imports, claiming you can’t import them because it’s a violation of the Federal Switchblade Act. They’ve hit major companies with fines and custom seizures, all kinds of enforcement.

Evan Nappen 12:58
But now, according to the U.S. Attorney General and Department of Justice, they don’t enforce it anymore. So, folks, there’s some good news. The Federal Switchblade Act is a moribund statute, dead, dying, with no credible threat of future enforcement. It’s incredible. I think the case will continue, however, and that the dismissal itself will be challenged. The FSA still needs to go. If it’s not enforced, repeal the damn law. Don’t leave it there as a law that can be selectively decided to be revived. I mean,

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look at the stuff that the Justice Department does by reviving and suddenly utilizing statutes 100 years old, that haven’t been used, and they try to use these statutes in their lawfare campaign against various individuals. They try to concoct these things. You see that, and this is something simply since 2010. So, we’re fine. We’re safe. Nothing to worry about. What a joke! So that is an interesting development and to be continued as we fight for knife, Liberty.

Evan Nappen 14:37
Now, last week’s show was just fantastic. I was just thrilled to have Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. His full name is Michael Hartman, Lieutenant Colonel (Ret.) Michael Hartman, but he goes by Mikey, believe it or not. We always hope that Mikey likes it. Because you don’t want Mikey not to like it. He was the top master sniper for the IDF (Israel Defense Forces), and he’s retired from that position. So, I wouldn’t want him upset with me. But he was just amazing and fantastic. He has just given us the real story about what’s going on in the Middle East. Of course, he has his course that I want to mention again. Mikey’s course is where you can actually learn the rifleman’s secrets of Israel’s elite. He wrote the entire firearms training program for the IDF, and now he is offering the course here in America. This is really a great program. If you use the magic word, remember, maybe you don’t remember, but Groucho Marx used to have, you know, the magic word. If you know the magic word, which is Gun Lawyer, you get $100 off his program. So, if you go to elitemarksman.com, EliteMarksman.com, you can find out all about his amazing program. He’s giving this information out about how built the shooting school at the IDF, and he’s trained over half a million soldiers. You can learn these tactics and techniques. The course is amazing. It’s over six hours of course materials, and it comes with IDF targets and all this great stuff. Mikey said it’s $100 off for Gun Lawyer listeners. Just use the special promo code Gun Lawyer.

Evan Nappen 16:58
Man, I’m just so honored to have had him on the show. But it doesn’t end there. Because our good friends at WeShoot have agreed to have Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman come to WeShoot for a seminar. That’s on August 9, and it’ll be from 9am to 1pm at WeShoot. They’re collaborating with the Lakewood Scoop etc. It will be just incredible. So, that is a free seminar, and you can meet Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. This is a do not miss on Friday, August 9th. Go to weshootusa.com, that’s the website, and get set to attend that awesome seminar by this hero. Mikey is truly a hero. What he’s done in his career is, to this day, aiding in the fight against terror. He is to be credited enormously with his efforts in that fight by developing the firearm training. As he talked about on the show, folks, you need to be prepared here. Because remember Israel’s the little Satan, and we’re the big Satan. With all these folks that have come into our country, we don’t even know who they are, there is a ticking time bomb. So, check out WeShoot. It’s a fantastic indoor range in Lakewood. They have great facilities there. You can get your carry certificate, your CCARE to get your carry. They can set you up in their pro shop with your rig and your firearm. They also do rentals. Everything you could want is there, and it’s a great resource right there in Lakewood, New Jersey. So, check out weshootusa.com Don’t miss the Mikey Hartman seminar, which is Friday, August 9, at WeShoot, and check out EliteMarksman.com where you can get the training program and get instructed by Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. (Remember – the discount code is Gun Lawyer to save $100 off Mikey’s program.)

Evan Nappen 19:54

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Now I’ve received a number of great letters, and I love getting the Ask Evan letters I really do. Folks have sent me some really interesting things, and I want to go through some of these. I think you’ll get a kick out of them as well. Not to mention all the great responses we got to Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. Here’s just one I’m looking at now. This is from David. Love the episode with Michael Hartman. He trained some soldiers that I know. As Moses said to Joshua, “Be strong and resolute.” Well, thanks, David. I appreciate that, and I’m sure that the Lieutenant Colonel does as well.

Evan Nappen 20:46
So, we have our own, of course, special needs in New Jersey, because our rights are so under attack here. And for that, you need to be a member of the state Association. Every state has their official state association, that’s the NRA affiliate. The state Association’s job is to be an umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in the state, and they also have individual memberships. And that becomes our fighting unity under that umbrella. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is our organization in New Jersey. If you care about your gun rights, and particularly if you’re in New Jersey, you need to be a member of the Association because they’re the ones fighting for yours. They are the folks that are in the courts, as we speak, litigating against the assault firearm ban, the large capacity magazine ban, and the Carry Killer law. All those obnoxious sensitive places and other restrictions on our ability to carry. They’re the ones doing that. They are also the ones that have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, keeping a watchful eye on the shenanigans going on down there. They have a great newsletter, a hardcopy newsletter. They’ll send you the best gun newsletter in the state. You’ll get email alerts, and you’ll know that you are part of the solution. So, please join anjrpc.org. ANJRPC.org. Make sure you’re a member!

Evan Nappen 22:31
Also make sure you have my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. Every one of you needs to have it. It’s your guidebook through the treacherous waters of New Jersey. It’s over 120 topics in a question and answer format. I explain New Jersey gun law. Nobody else is out there that has this comprehensive instruction to try to explain this absurdity called New Jersey gun law. When you get the book, it will protect you so you can stay a law- abiding citizen because New Jersey likes to turn folks into law-abiding criminals. So, get the book, and when you get it, scan the front cover, that QR code, and you can sign up for the free archive of all the updates and other things that I’ve put in there. You can access them anytime for free. You will get notice of the law changes that I send out. As soon as we get results from these pending cases, I’ll be sending them out. If any statutes change or new Attorney General opinions are issued, I’ll let you know. This way your book stays current. So, get your copy of New Jersey Gun Law. Go to EvanNappen.com. It’s EvanNappen.com. That’s my name, and it’s a .com. You’ll see the orange book, click it and order the book. You’ll have it in a matter of days.

Evan Nappen 24:05
Now Scott writes a question, and it’s a question that I get often in multiple formats. It’s something that we really need to discuss here because I have basically two questions regarding the same thing. So, Scott writes, for example, great shows, Evan. I enjoyed the change of pace with the guest last week. Anyway, my mother and stepfather live in Virginia and have a Mossberg 930 that is “too much” for them to operate. I happen to own a .410 and live in New Jersey. Can we just trade to each other and call it a

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day? I see there’s a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) on the New Jersey State Police website but transfers between family members are exempt from FFL. Any ideas how this is done? I’ll explain in a moment, because I also have a question from Caleb. He says, Hi, Evan, I’m a big fan of the show and appreciate all you do to support 2A community. I purchased your book and frequently reference it to make sure I stay out of the “gun owner gulag”. Well, that is a smart thing to do. My question is in regard to inter- family transfers. Would you be able to explain the process to perform an inter-family transfer of a firearm, both handgun and long gun? My understanding is that it’s much easier than doing a normal person-to-person transfer, but with all New Jersey’s crazy gun laws that keep changing, I just want to make sure I don’t accidentally end up being the next GOFU. Thank you.

Evan Nappen 25:44
So, let me answer both questions at the same time by explaining this to you thoroughly. Scott’s question has a little bit of a twist to it, because Scott is asking about an inter-family transfer between non-residents. He’s asking regarding Virginia to New Jersey. Folks, when you deal with guns, we deal with two jurisdictions. We’re dealing with the Federal jurisdiction and the state jurisdiction. Under federal law, a non-resident cannot acquire from a resident of another state. So, a New Jersey resident cannot acquire a firearm from a Virginia resident, even if the resident is a family member. You also cannot gift a firearm to a non-resident. You can’t gift it. It has to go through a dealer, an FFL (Federal Firearm License) dealer for the interstate transfer, between folks of two different states.

Evan Nappen 27:07
Now, if you go to Virginia, you can go to a dealer in Virginia, and your relative can bring the gun to the dealer in Virginia. The dealer can then do the transfer of a long arm to right then and there, as long as you have your (New Jersey) Firearms Purchaser ID Card. The dealer obeys the laws of Virginia and New Jersey and does the transfer of a long arm. However, you cannot do a handgun. A handgun can only be transferred in your state of residency. But if it’s long arms, then that can be done by going through an FFL dealer. Now, if you don’t want to go to the other state, then the dealer in that state would have to ship the firearm to the dealer in New Jersey. That’s how the transfer would have to take place.

Evan Nappen 27:52
Under Federal law, one of the few exceptions to that is upon the death of somebody. If somebody dies out of state and you’re the heir, then Federal law exempts you to take that gun without going through a dealer. For that matter, so does New Jersey law. But if we’re talking about while folks are alive and it’s between two states, you’re going to have to go through a dealer. Now, if it’s not between two residents of different states, but it is a family transfer to immediate family members within the same state, then you do not have to go through a FFL dealer. Under New Jersey law, you do not have to go through a New Jersey Retail Firearms dealer either. It can be done person to person in New Jersey, between immediate family members if everybody is a resident of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 28:58
In order to do that transfer, if it’s a long arm, a rifle or shotgun, then as long as the buyer/transferee has a (New Jersey) Firearms Purchaser ID Card, you do a Certificate of Eligibility, and the gun can be transferred to you. (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml – under “Other Forms” on bottom of

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page) You each get a copy of the Certificate of Eligibility, and you file them nowhere. You just keep the copy with your paperwork. This is what’s needed under Jersey law for the transfer of a long arm to an immediate family member. There is no registration. The gun passes and each person keeps your piece of paper. And that’s it. You can do it without any NICS background check, without going through a dealer, and it stays private because the paperwork is just between the two parties, the two immediate family members.

Evan Nappen 29:53
Now, if it’s a handgun, you’re going to need a (New Jersey) pistol purchase permit, but you do not have to go through a dealer, and you don’t need a NICS check. You simply do the paperwork for the handgun transfer person to person as to immediate family members.(https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml – “Application to Purchase a Handgun”) You do have to follow through with the permits and send the copies where they need to go. The handgun has to be papered on a handgun purchase permit, but it can be done without a federal dealer, and without a state retail firearms dealer being involved if it is a transfer between immediate family members living in New Jersey. You have got to do the paperwork. You have to do the paperwork on long arms and on handguns. But a dealer, neither state nor federal, is involved. So, I hope that clears up (firearm transfers between immediate family members). And I appreciate those questions.

Evan Nappen 30:56
Now, Daniel writes, and he says, regarding the AR-7 breakdown rifle and New Jersey law. My friend referred me to your podcast, and I’ve learned so much that will likely prevent future issues. My question is about a breakdown rifle like the AR-7, which I think is manufactured right here in New Jersey. Yes, that would be Henry. Henry makes the current model of the AR-7. The AR-7 has gone through a number of makers. It originated with ArmaLite, the company that developed the AR-15. They were working on it as a survival rifle for the Air Force, and the early ArmaLite rifles are cool and collectible. Then after ArmaLite, it was acquired by Charter Arms, and Charter Arms made their version of the AR- 7 which was a very popular gun for them. Then after that, there may have been another maker in between, but basically it became Henry.

Evan Nappen 32:04
Now Henry makes a current model that I think is probably the best model of the AR-7 made. (https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/us-survival-rifle/) They’re all good. They all work, and you know, they’re all really cool. The AR-7 breaks down. The barrel comes off, the mag comes out, the receiver unscrews, simply with your thumb from the stock, and then everything fits into the stock – the barrel, the magazine, and the receiver. The cool thing about the Henry rifle is they made the front sight orange so it’s easy to see. They added a Picatinny, molded-in Picatinny rail, so you can actually put a scope on it. The way they set up the stock is superior for putting the parts in. You can leave the magazine in the receiver, which gives you one magazine in the receiver that you tuck into the buttstock of the gun, and then there’s a spot for two more magazines. So, it can hold three magazines. And when the gun is assembled, it floats. So, if you drop it off the boat, it actually floats. It is a very cool gun, a survival rifle, as they call it. Henry made some really great improvements, but it’s still the classic AR-7. These guns are also reasonable and really an excellent, excellent .22 to have for that purpose.

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Evan Nappen 33:39
So, I’ll continue with the question, having diverted to a little bit of the history of the AR-7. Daniel says New Jersey law requires that a weapon being transported under paragraph (2) of Subsection b., subsection e. or paragraph (1) and (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gun box, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of an automobile and shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances. If a rifle is stored within its own stock, would that constitute a closed and fastened case under New Jersey law for transport in my hatchback? How are hatchbacks with small cargo areas treated under NJ law for long gun transport? Let’s assume the AR-7 magazines are empty when stored in the rifle stock for the purpose of this question.

Evan Nappen 34:30
So, the answer is yes. Technically, the stock would act as a case because New Jersey defines the firearm itself as the receiver. The receiver is in a case, and the case is shut because when you put the receiver, the magazines, and the barrel into the stock, you then snap over it. You close and fasten the butt stock with a rubber butt cap that snaps over, keeping everything in place. So, it is in fact a closed and fastened case. And it’s containing the firearm in it. The AR-7s come with a box that has a little handle on it, and it’s a little bit more of a durable box. You can put the gun in that box, which it’s made to do. Therefore, you now have it in a gun box, which is also exempted under subsection g. So, now you have it in a closed and fastened case, arguably the stock. You have it in a gun box, which is the box that the AR-7 comes with. And by having it in the box, you also can put a box a .22s in there, put a pull-through rifle cleaner in the box, maybe some Rem oil, a little thing of oil, cleaner, etc. You can set up that box for your survival and have it all together in a nice kit. A real nice kit. So, the AR-7 has so many great uses. Because it condenses and it’s very light, it’s great for backpacking, canoeing, taking out in the woods, and having fun with it, if you’re legal to do it in whatever woods you’re in. But these are the things, and the AR-7 is a great gun. Everyone should own an AR-7 and have it in their personal arsenal. So, thanks, Daniel, for a very interesting question and getting me talking about one of my favorite guns over the years, being the AR-7. I have so many fond memories regarding the AR-7 as a young shooter.

Evan Nappen 36:54
Now, I have another question here that says, Hi, Evan. This is from Matthew. Longtime listener, and I appreciate all the content you put out. Oddly enough, I was listening to your podcast today on the way to a barbecue. When I got there, my nephew told me how he was pulled over by New Jersey State Troopers the day before. So, if you may recall, I talked about and put out to the audience whether anyone has had encounters because of what the procedures may be now with State Police when you honor the Duty to Disclose, what you must do and tell them you’re carrying a gun. What happens?

Evan Nappen 37:32
So, one of the listeners here, Matthew, writes and says the following story about his nephew. He doesn’t have a carry permit and was transporting several rifles to the range in the backseat of his truck. He got pulled over for an expired registration. He disclosed the rifles since they were in plain sight and then consented to a search. (facepalm) The Trooper called for backup and upon arrival of several, they had him exit the vehicle, searched him, and proceeded to uncase and verify the serial numbers on

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every rifle. Not exactly the same case but figured I’d mention. As a carry permit holder, it did raise a question for me. If pulled over, after disclosing, if the officer asks to see my pistol, am I obliged to comply or can I refuse as I would a general search of the vehicle?

Evan Nappen 38:24
Well, once you disclose you have a firearm and then you show your permit, which you’re required to do under Duty to Disclose, there’s another section of the law that says, if there’s an investigation, they have a right to ask for your gun. Now, let me just say this. If you’ve disclosed and you’ve shown the permit and the officer wants to see your gun, I would advise that you do it and not worry about whether technically he has the right to ask. You don’t want to have a problem. You don’t want the officer to be nervous about you and your gun. Even though you have a carry permit and you’ve shown him your carry permit, the best thing in that situation, since he knows you have a firearm, is to follow the officer’s instructions. Let’s not make their job more difficult here or place you in a situation where common sense needs to dictate. In this narrow circumstance, if you’ve disclosed and the officer wants you to hand him your gun or if he wants to take your gun from you, temporarily, etc., I have to advise you to cooperate. It’s not a time to stop that.

Evan Nappen 38:39
Now beyond that, you know, consenting to a search of your vehicle, consenting to searching your trunk, talking about anything else, why you have a gun or anything, none of that you should be doing, none of that. But you must disclose because the law is still on the books. You have to do it. You show your permit because the law is on the books. You have to do it. If your cooperation is to the extent of the officer wanting to see your gun or render it safe, you really need to cooperate with that. It doesn’t mean you’re going to give up any other rights. And that’s important, especially, when it comes to any further consent regarding searching your vehicle. So, that is how I personally would handle it. Just so you know.

Evan Nappen 40:42
Now, I want to talk about one of the most popular sections and segments of the podcast, which is the GOFU. The GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are really important because these are expensive lessons that others have learned that you get to learn for free. This week’s GOFU is actually based on a letter that I received. The letter itself is not a GOFU per se, but it demonstrates what I’ve been seeing lately, that can absolutely become a GOFU. This is a letter from John, and John says, Are others with pistol braces such as the Troy A4 still legal in New Jersey? Also, is it legal to build a mimic version with a stripped lower?

Evan Nappen 41:42
Here’s the deal, folks. We discussed the Troy A4, the Dark Storm 15, and we do have that State Police letter that made it legal and lawful. Then we went through all the turmoil of the pistol brace law that seemed to undercut that, and then they’ve been stayed, enjoined, by the courts. And it looks like the Federal change is on its deathbed. It’s all just a big turmoil right now in this area. Basically, as you may know, they required that they be registered as SBRs. They being the Feds. They said you had to register them as short barrel rifles. But, of course, New Jerseyans couldn’t do that because then you’re admitting to having a short barreled rifle, and short barrel rifles are prohibited in Jersey. So, it makes it

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not a short barrel rifle as the State Police recognized that it was a pistol brace and not making it a rifle. All these other good things.

Evan Nappen 42:37
So, look, the bottom line is, with the A4s and the Dark Storms that are specifically listed, you have the protection that you can raise as a defense known as ignorance or mistake of law that you’re relying on an official statement of the State Police saying those guns are okay. Now, it’s still subject to challenge. It’s still arguably dependent on ATFs ruling, but they seem to have put that ruling on the backburner. One of the things I would recommend is that you join some of the national groups that have gotten injunctions which protect their members, such as the NRA (National Rifle Association), GOA (Gun Owners of America), and the FPC, that’s Firearm Policy Coalition. They’ve gotten injunctive relief that protects members if you have a pistol brace in violation of the Federal rule. And so that helps keep you exempt. If you have a Troy A4 or Dark Storm 15, you’re really well advised to have the membership credential to protect you, not just from the Federal law being applied to you, but also, arguably, if you’re enjoined federally, you’re protected as that member if they wanted to make trouble for you. They being the State. We would raise that entire thing showing that that rule of reinterpretation, which is hopefully very shortly going to be declared completely unconstitutional. We’d have those grounds there to fight it and use it to protect you.

Evan Nappen 44:18
But you see the GOFU is on the second question, more than even the first. That is what the writer called a “mimic version”. Essentially, what he means is you take a stripped lower and you build, even though it’s a registered lower that’s legal for you to have, up a configured “other” that matches the configurations of the Dark Storm or the Troy A4. Theoretically, you should be fine as long as the registered receiver was that of an other, it remained an other, and that’s what you built. But the problem is the Government doesn’t recognize that. It’s hard enough when I have cases with Dark Storms and Troy A4s, trying to win those. But if you have built your own, and it is not one of those deemed guns, it’s going to be even harder. You’re going to have more of a fight, a harder fight, to beat the charges as they are going to charge you with having an SBR under New Jersey law, they’ll charge you with possession of an assault firearm under Jersey law. Then knocking it out quickly and easily, at least faster than we could do with the Troy and the Dark Storm because of the State Police letter. Now we have to explain and convince the prosecutor and/or their folks how this fits and how it should be applied to that gun as well, even though the State Police didn’t address it, necessarily, generally, on your build.

Evan Nappen 46:12
So, I really have to say, try not to do that. Even having the Troy and the Dark Storms is trouble enough and problematic enough. But the GOFU is going to be this extrapolation on doing your build. I’ve plenty of cases that I’m currently fighting, dealing with this very thing. So, beware. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 46:54

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E190_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

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Episode 189-Nappen Interviews Head Sniper of the IDFAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 189SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, israel, accidental discharges, idf, galil, handgun, targets, shooting, gaza, new jersey, check, mikey, m4, sniper, called, israeli, magazine, israeli army, people, august 9th

SPEAKERS

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman, Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

EvanNappen 00:00
Hi I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I am really excited because I have a fantastic guest today on the show. Today’s guest was the head sniper of the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) who rewrote their whole shooting doctrine which trained over a half a million soldiers, including Americans. And that man is Mikey Hartman. {LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman} Mikey, welcome to Gun Lawyer.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 00:54
I’m honored to be here, buddy. Thank you for having me.

EvanNappen 00:57
Well, I am really excited, and I have so much respect for you. You have had and still are involved in an amazing career. I just want to mention to my audience that I’m also looking at a really cool cover of Soldier of Fortune (June 2013) in which you were on the cover of that magazine? How did that happen?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 01:29
That was a few years ago. Firstly, to be clear, I’m retired now. So, I’m not the head Sniper of anybody anymore. I was the previous head Sniper of Israel, and I wrote the Israeli doctrine on how to shoot a gun. But I’ve been retired almost 15 years. So, I’m an old man. The cover of Soldier of Fortune. Do you know the editor of that magazine?

EvanNappen 01:45
Yes, wasn’t that Robert K. Brown. Right?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 01:49
He is an ex-sniper from Vietnam. He came to my booth at Shot Show many years ago, and we had this like, I guess, connection and stuff. Then they interviewed me, and they did like a six-page article about me. And they were very cool. They put me on the cover. And it was kind of cool. So, it was a sniper to sniper kind of thing. He’s a great guy. But to be honest with you, they stopped printing those magazines and they went full internet, probably about four or five magazines after me.

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EvanNappen 02:24 That’s funny.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 02:24 Maybe I was the cause.

EvanNappen 02:26
No, I don’t think so. But, you know, I have original SOF magazines when they had the red border, Torino and all that, way back.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 02:35
I was the first. I was the first Israeli. I think the only Israeli Jew to ever be put on the cover. So, for me, it was like, it was pretty cool. You know? And we went one.

EvanNappen 02:45 You broke a new barrier.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 02:46
It was kind of cool. Right when it came out, I was doing something, and I went in to Mexico. I don’t know if it was Mexico, or Brazil. I can’t remember. I had a whole bunch of those magazines, and all the police guys that would do autographs. I was signing, and it was like really, really cool. So, it was my one day of stardom.

EvanNappen 03:06
So, you originally though were from Memphis, Tennessee?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 03:10
Yeah, I was born in Memphis. I lived there a very few years, about seven. Then we moved to Israel, and then we came back to LA. I grew up in LA and went to high school out in LA. I was the president of my high school. Then I had this reoccurring dream in high school that I was a sniper in the Warsaw Ghetto during the Holocaust. And how many Nazis can I kill before they get me? It was like, you know, I had this dream to become a ַצ ָלף , which means sniper in Hebrew. After I finished high school, a lot of us from LA and all over America would go to Israel for a year, like a sabbatical, getting away from the parents before you go into college. Some guys went to a kibbutz. Some guys went to a yeshiva, and some guys went to university. I wanted to be a lawyer. That was my thing. I was going to sell ice to Eskimos, that was my. Since I was a little kid, they put the word lawyer on my forehead, and my mom made me sign a contract.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 03:51 Somehow I can relate to that.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 04:05
You definitely can, but you’re in a different level. So, in any case, she made me sign a contract that she’ll send me to Israel, to Bar-Ilan (BIU), a university on this one year program. But I had to write and

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guarantee that I’m coming back to study in college here, and I won’t join the army because I always had that little, you know, thing in my stomach that I wanted to join the Israeli army, you know, to protect the people of Israel, and everyone’s against us. Now even more so than back then. So, I went to Israel, and I was studying there in university. I saw soldiers walking around with a Galil on their backs, you know, the soldiers. And I said, I gotta do this, man. I gotta do this. So, I had to call my mom and tell her that I’m breaking the contract. I said, Mom, you know, I’m joining the army. She says, No, you’re not. And I said, Yes, I am. She says, No, you’re not. I said, Yes, I am. She says, No, you’re not. She said, You’re gonna do it by yourself. I said, Who cares? Who need you? I don’t need you. We hung up the phone, and that was the last time I spoke to her for like, five, six years after that, and went into join the army. And you know, when you volunteer for a foreign army, I don’t know if you know this, in our passport, you can actually lose your American citizenship if you volunteer to a foreign army.

EvanNappen 05:16
Even the Israelis that have like, you can have dual citizenship, can’t you?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 05:19
Well, I wasn’t a dual citizen then. That’s the exact point. So, you have to become an Israeli first. Then you have this dual citizenship, and then they can enlist you. So, I became an Israeli, and then the next day I went into the army.

EvanNappen 05:36 Wow.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 05:37
Lucky for me. Because, well, if I didn’t have an American citizenship, my wife wouldn’t have married me. The only reason my wife married me in Israel was because I had an American passport and that was the only thing I had. Yeah.

EvanNappen 05:49
Well, so you spent how many years living in Israel?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 05:53
About 30. Maybe 31. Yeah, I was in the military for 21, almost 22 years. So, from ’88 to 2010, I was in the military, Infantry. I grew as a sniper in the Infantry. Then, in ’93, I became the Head of Shooting for Israel, and I did that for about 17 years.

EvanNappen 06:14
So, I have to ask, what was your immediate reaction to October 7th?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 06:21
You know, I’m sitting here in Florida, and it happened the middle of the night. So, we wake up and everyone’s calling and all hell’s breaking loose. We couldn’t believe it. Because, I retired in 2010, some 14 years ago. We knew that they can hit us here. They can hit us there. But nowhere in our radar did I think it was even possible for something like October 7 to happen. It was devastating. I lost so many

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friends, and my friends lost their sons as well, because it’s a next generation. There’s so many heroes stories that we’re going to hear about and movies are going to be done. Jumping on grenades, and father’s running into the fire, getting their kids out. Crazy. There’s so many crazy stories. But for me, I felt very frustrated that I’m here, and I’m not helping. So, I got on a plane, and I got re enlisted, even though I’m an old man at 54. I went and joined the army again in in October. I left Florida. I left the family and got into uniform and went down south and did what I can do. I’m too old to really help too much. But the stuff that I do know how to do, I did. We will eventually win, even though the whole world is against us, other than maybe the Republican Party in America. I think that’s the only people that’s not against us. Thank God for Trump and thank God for the Republican Party. I’m friends with his son, and hopefully, he’s going to take over in November and the situation will be a lot better.

EvanNappen 07:58
Yeah. Tell me when you’re talking about the Israelis, the citizens and civilians defending themselves, what is the situation in Israel regarding firearms and possession of firearms ? How is that different? Or maybe it’s the same as in America?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 08:17
That’s a great question. You know, there’s a lot of misconceptions around guns in Israel period. I think the Americans think that the situation is very different than it actually is. So, let’s break it down. You cannot go into a gun store in Israel, and there’s very few of those, by the way. You cannot go into a gun store and buy an AR or an AK. There is no ability to buy to purchase a long gun in Israel, period.

EvanNappen 08:47
Not even a semi-automatic?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 08:49
Nothing. It has nothing to do with automatic. You cannot get a long gun. You can get a handgun but you have to go through some licensing to get that as well. It was harder before October 7. Now, they made it much easier. But another point that may surprise people is we don’t have sport shooting, very little. There’s some but very little. We have no hunting. There’s no gaming. So, the first time you ever see a rifle is when you mandatory enlist at the age of 18. All men and women enlist when they’re 18. Guys do three years and girls do two years. So, the first time they see a gun is either their father was in reserves, because everyone has to do reserves until they’re like 50, or when they join the army at 18. By the way, 99% of all the IDF, Israeli Defense Forces, doesn’t have a handgun. We don’t have a secondary. The American military is extremely different than the IDF. So, the handgun, you’re not issued a handgun as an IDF soldier. We have very few units, special forces, that are inside the territories that are issued handguns, but they are less than 1% of the entire military.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 09:10
So, for Israeli citizens that get a handgun, what’s the most popular handgun in Israel for an Israeli?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 10:06
I think the Glock 43X and the P365 of Sig Sauer. Those are the two. They are slim guns. They are concealed carry guns. Those are the two most popular in Israel as of now.

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EvanNappen 10:19
Do they carry a permit system as welll? First, you have to get licensed?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 10:23
Yeah, you gotta get a license to be able to carry. It used to be much harder. But not now. By the way, your question was such a good one, because what happened when 4,000 terrorists entered Israel on the seventh of October? It was like thirty 911s for us, per capita. The kolache was fighting against Israelis who had handguns. They didn’t have rifles to defend themselves. One of the biggest reasons that everyone should own a long gun, an M4 or an AK, whatever people like, is because of what happened on the seventh of October. Now we have an Interior Minister in Israel, that after the seventh of October, is trying to make it easier for more people to have long guns. So, they’re trying to build these like little security forces at each kibbutz and yeshuvi of each little town. They’ll have guys with long guns. Because the problem was, it was a handgun against an AK. And that’s the people who had handguns. Less than 10% of Israelis have handguns. So, the vast majority of the people don’t even have anything to defend themselves.

EvanNappen 11:31
You know, what’s interesting is I have a collection of various Israeli weapons from the war in the late 40s, and they were actually Nazi Mausers that are Israeli marked. Some of the receivers even were made by FN and Haganah marked. You know, with the crest, and many were marked. I have some that are 8 mm and some that were in 308, NATO. And it’s funny, because I always thought those guns were plentiful in Israel. These were surplus, you know, even from after the wars when they had used, ironically, the arms of the Nazis to fight for their state.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 12:28
Yeah, back then, you know, even now, where did where did the M4s come from? A lot of people don’t know that. They hear that America gives money to this country and gives to that country, and there are people out there that are kind of upset. Why is America giving money to to foreign nations when there’s homeless people living here on the streets, which is a valid, valid point. One thing to know, at least about the Israeli aid, is that the money that is given to Israel has to be used, I think it’s 85%, has to be used back in America, meaning we’re getting like a coupon. This coupon can only be used inside of the U.S. For example, we had M4s, we had M16s, we had long M16s, and we had the M4s. We had the M4s even before you guys were using the M4s. Do you know how much the Israeli military paid for each M4? I’m talking 25 years ago.

EvanNappen 13:26 I have now clue.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 13:29
$1,400. We paid $1400 for every M4. Now, you see that’s fucking insane. How are you paying $1,400? So, we can’t complain, because we got the coupons. Right? It’s for free?

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EvanNappen 13:40
Well, I’ll tell you what. I personally will take any of those coupons the Government wants to give me. How’s that?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 13:45 Me, too.

EvanNappen 13:46
Right. Well, you know, a friend of mine and a listener. He listens all the time, and I did mention to him that we were so excited to have you on the show. He actually had a question. His name is Mark, and I think this is a great question. I really want to ask you about this, based on your experience with the IDF, and given the threat to civilians on a daily basis that exists in Israel. My friend would be interested to know and so would I. What advice would you give to American civilians, given the fact that Biden has turned America essentially into a ticking time bomb with the infiltration through the open borders policy? It seems like it’s just something waiting to happen. What would you have to say about that?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 14:34
Well, I agree, firstly, with your friend. There is no doubt in my mind that at this moment there are terrorist cells, sleeping cells, across America, from people that came in through the open borders in the south. There’s no question. So, what do you have to do? You have to be vigilant. You have to, as we say, keep your head on a swivel. You have to be armed. It doesn’t matter if it’s a handgun, if it’s a long gun, if it’s a knife or if it’s a stick. I don’t really care. You have to train your family what to do. We say in Hebrew פעולה ותגובה, action and reaction. What do you do if something like this happens? What is your action? How do you react to that? Where do you go? Where’s the phone? Who do you call? What’s your emergency numbers? You know, you’re locking up the doors, putting on the alarms, being careful when you’re going out to a gas station. My daughter is 17, and she fills up gas at the gas station. You have to keep your eyes open. There’s no other choice. We’re not living in Switzerland. We’re living in a place where there’s some bad people in our country. I just think that people need to be armed, and they need to be trained.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 15:49
When they made me the Head of Shooting in ’93, you know, I grew up as a sniper. I didn’t know anything about teaching how to shoot. I didn’t know I was going to be the Head Sniper of Israel. I didn’t know I was going to write the doctrine. I didn’t know any of that stuff. I was in Lebanon, and I was zeroing my sniper rifle. Back in ’88 and ’89, our Sniper rifles in Israel were the end M14s. Now, this is an old Vietnam gun. I love it. It’s a .762, and I love the gun. But we didn’t have an adapter for a nightscope, and our ambushes were 24 to 36 hours. So, they were day to night, night to day. It was crazy. I had a Galil, which was my issued weapon. I had an M14 as my sniper weapon with a telescope we called nimrota, magnified by six. And I had to take a long M16A1 with the nightscope called varo. It was 1.72 kilo of shit. It was better to take it off the gun and throw it at the enemy and hope it hits them in the head, rather than shoot through that thing. It was nasty stuff.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 16:53
I remember I zeroed my M14. After I zeroed it, my friend who was shooting the Galil, because you’re supposed to zero your weapon before you go into ambush, he wasn’t doing a good grouping. So, I went to him as a friend, he’s a buddy of mine, and I just told him what made sense to me. You know, we didn’t have shooting instructors back then. This is over 35 years ago. So, my platoon officer saw me teaching this guy, and he said, what did you tell him? I said, I don’t know. He said, well go tell him, the next guy on the line. And I went down the line. I was like the first shooting instructor, basically, of the IDF. And who knew that five, six years afterwards, I was going to be the head of all shooting of Israel. It was a crazy thing. So, to your friend’s point, I think you have to be armed somehow, and you always have to be in a ready position. Your frame of mind needs to be, where can I get hit from? Where can it come from? This is not an easy thing to readjust your brain to. Because all you wanted to do was go to Publix and get some milk. You’re not thinking hey, where can they hit me from? So, it is what it is, you know. In certain states like Florida, I can conceal carry. I can carry wherever I want to, and no one says anything to you. I think in New Jersey they have much tougher laws.

EvanNappen 18:13
Well now with the Bruen decision, as we’ve discussed on the show many times, even New Jerseyans can get their permit to carry a handgun. We are limited at the moment to 10 rounds in the handgun. And of course, every concerned citizen should have a handgun. In addition to a handgun, I’m sure you would suggest a long arm. Is there any particular long arms you think that would be good for a civilian in preparation for what might come?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 18:48
Shooting with a long gun, with a rifle, is substantially easier than a handgun. It has nothing to do with the caliber. It doesn’t matter if it’s a .556, you guys call it .223, or if it’s a nine. That has nothing to do with the reason you pick a long weapon. With the long weapon, you have more points of contact. We call it five points of contact. I did these videos online where we teach people how to shoot with a rifle. The fact is that you have five points of contact: shoulder, feet, your right hand on the pistol grip, your left arm against the magazine, and your left arm on the forward guard. As opposed to a handgun, where only your wrist is holding the handgun. The accuracy in the long gun is not just because the length of the barrel is longer, which adds speeds to the round and makes the bullet go farther. But the reason is the points of contact. So, I love the M4. Yes, we have the Tavor in the IDF, and I can talk about that on another show. Why did we got the Tavor? What are the advantages/disadvantages of a Bullpup in the army? But I love the M4 platform. You know I grew up with guns. I was always shooting. What’s great about being the head of shooting of Israel? You get the first gun. You get the new toy. So, yeah, it was really cool to be honest. In Hebrew, there’s a thing called wasa. It’s like walking around with a new toy. Everyone’s looking at you and thinking you’re cool as shit.

EvanNappen 20:17
It’s called the Hebrew hammer, isn’t it?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 20:24 By the way, yeah, it’s a cool weapon.

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EvanNappen 20:27 X95. I think, it’s the X95.

20:30

X95 is the short one. We call that the Micro-Tavor. So, we have the Tavor, and then the Micro-Tavor. The Tavor was just a little bit longer, and the Micro-Tavor, which is the X95, was more compact. It also has a different trigger guard and stuff like that. But overall, the Bullpup is interesting. I had more issues with it. I didn’t like the gas in the face. But as an Israeli, we had the Galil. We only went to the M16 and then the M4s as a temporary fill in until the Israeli gun industry created another gun, because the Galil, which was kind of like a copy of the AK-47, was very, very heavy. The magazines were very, very heavy, and the dust cover would move from left to right. And the rear sight was on the dust cover. It’s different than the AK-47. The distance between the sights is much larger on the Galil than it is on the AK.

EvanNappen 21:26
Did you ever shoot the heavy barrel FN FAL as well?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 21:32 No.

EvanNappen 21:33
I think they got rid of them by that point.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 21:35
Yeah, I got rid of the Uzis. We had a whole bunch of Uzis in the military and that was a dangerous ass gun. When you drop an Uzi on the ground, you can actually misfire. You can have one on those accidental discharges.

EvanNappen 21:47
Because it fires from open bolt.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 21:49
Yep, yep, yep. The paradox was that, who did the IDF give the Uzi to? They gave it to the girls that were the most non- fighters in the Israeli army. They were secretaries in our headquarters, and they would have to be issued a gun when they do guard duty or something like that. They would get the Uzi to them. So, we gave the most dangerous gun to the person that was trained the least. I got rid of that gun, I think, in probably the late ’90s, early 2000s.

EvanNappen 22:20
Wow. After the atrocity of October 7, you were able to go back and see what happened. Is there anything you’d like to tell listeners about that, what you observed.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 22:36
Yeah, it was extremely tough. I got on the plane, and I got there. I went from the airport to enlist. I was in uniform, probably two hours after I landed, and I went to the south. The first thing was we had not yet gone into Gaza by the time I got there because it took a while to move the forces inside. They were on the outside, training. So, I did a lot of the training and getting the guys ready to go in. But I went through the kibbutzim. You know, you go into the kibbutz, and you go into these houses, my friend. I cannot tell you how tough it was to see the damage. You see the most. Your brain can’t even register. I don’t know if you know this, but because of these shelters, many more Israelis were killed. Why? When they were doing that party, the music party, they were in an open field. And I went to that scene. And everything was still on the floor. By the way, you see terrorists still lying on the streets. We would see them. By the time I got there, they were still there. The cars burned. You see baby carriages tilt over.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 23:54
But when there’s an open field, there’s something called migunit. It’s basically a little house that Israel puts in open areas that if you’re in an open area when a siren goes off, you run to this migunit. I don’t know. I’m sorry about my English. It’s like a little room that’s cemented, and it’s safe against those bombs coming from the top of you. It’s like a little bunker. But it’s open, right? There’s no door, and you run in there. What happened? There were sirens going off. A lot of the people from the party, the young men and women, 18, 19, just having fun at the music party ran into these migunits. Then when the terrorists came, they went straight to those migunits, and they just threw a grenade in there. They killed them all. So, they had pockets of Israelis, and we were much easier targets. None of those guys have weapons on them. So, they can’t fight.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 24:56
There is a scene, my friend, that maybe I can share are with you, and somehow get it to your listeners. There were maybe 50 people in one of those little rooms. And you see the terrorists, by video from the gas station across the street, throw a grenade in there. The guy takes the grenade, one of the guys inside, and throws it back out. They throw another grenade, and he throws it back out. They throw another grenade – seven times. Then finally they killed them, unfortunately, killed them all. But there were so many. It was just, it was just insanity. So, I hope that shits not coming here. But you never know. I wouldn’t be surprised if they hit us, you know.

EvanNappen 25:34
So, speaking of here, what is your reaction when you see the anti-semitic hatred on college campuses? What are your thoughts on that?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 25:44
Firstly, I’d love to deport all of them. Secondly, I would love them to go to Gaza, if possible, and sit in Gaza for a while. This whole LBGTQ lesbian label, whatever they call for Palestine, Queers for Palestine, or whatever they call themselves, fucking idiots. You know, if you’re gay in Gaza, you’re either thrown off the roof, or put in jail. You cannot be gay in Gaza. That’s one of these paradoxes. Now, these anti-semitic people, you have to understand that universities are funded by oil nations, Arab oil nations like Qatar. They’re giving them billions of dollars. Now these guys are getting scholarships, and they’re being paid for by these Arabs. Now, not all Muslims are bad, but there’s some

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serious ones that are bad. The open hate against Jews is insanity. Now I walk around with the Star of David on my neck. I never did that before. Outside of my house, there’s an American flag, and there’s an Israeli flag, outside of my house here in Florida. They’re not going to scare me. With that being said, they’re a very loud minority. I truly believe that the vast amount of Americans see these people as crazies, and it’s the same people that were doing the BLM marches back in Trump days. The same people doing that. It’s the same exact people. They put masks on their face because they’re pussies. They don’t even know what the river to the sea means. They don’t know what river? They don’t know what sea. It’s just pure hate. They hate us. They blame Jews. You know, there’s never been been a Jewish president. There’s been a black president. There’s never been a Jewish President. I guess everyone needs someone to blame for their thing in life. And I guess the Jews are an easy target, because the Jews, the vast majority

EvanNappen 27:39
Well, that’s been going on for a long time, hasn’t it?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 27:42
Yeah. I think some of this stuff is really tough. My daughter is 17, and she’s going into 12th grade. She wants to go to an Ivy League, and I said, well, you’re definitely not going to Columbia. You’re definitely not going to Harvard, if you would ever get into Harvard. She’s a pretty bright girl. She’s like her mom. I’m not even sure she’s mine, to be honest. But I started coming out. I just don’t know how she went in. But the way we’re going to be sending our daughter to school, we’re not going to be sending her to a place where they hate Jews and they act like this. Do people need to be? How can this be in this country, that you’re afraid to show that you’re Jewish? You have to take your kippah, your yarmulke off, your beanie off, because you’re afraid that someone’s going to come at you? Can you imagine in America, we have to fear what religion we are? It’s insanity. It’s wrong. And G_d willing, G_d willing. Now Biden is, I’m sorry, I don’t want to be political too much. But he’s a pussy. Biden. Because he needs Minnesota or he needs Michigan or needs these places where they have a large muslim population,

EvanNappen 28:45 Wisconsin.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 28:46
you know, the swing states that they call them, and they have large Muslim populations there. He’s trying to walk between in the rain without getting wet. And trying to play to these people.

EvanNappen 28:57
Well, that’s easy. Just go between the raindrops.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 28:59 Yep. Yep. We need Trump.

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EvanNappen 29:02
Oh, that’s for sure. Now, in terms of your training of IDF and your vast experience in what you taught and teach, what do you have to share along those lines?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 29:19
Well, a few things. There are a few things that I can tell you about how we do things and why we do things. I’ll tell you a quick story about the Hamas and how that initiated how we trained and what we do. We used to live or serve inside of Gaza. I don’t know if all your listeners know this. But the Gaza Strip, where the war is going on now, used to have many, many small villages of Israelis living inside of Gaza. Because of that, we had little bases inside of Gaza that would protect these little villages, these little cities. It’s like a little island inside, but you are inside of Gaza. So, you had many of these, I don’t know the number, all throughout, eight or nine, but I don’t know the exact number. That’s where I did most of my service. So, you’re on a roof. You’re in a window. Head, knee, head, that’s a sniper. That’s what I did most of my service. I remember once, seeing a guy holding an AK, and he put around him, he’s standing in a circle, and around him, he has like 6, 7, or 8 year old kids. They’re completely surrounding him like a clock, okay, and he’s standing in the middle of the circle. He has kids around him because they know that we are the most ethical army in the world.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 30:36
You know, they’re saying genocide. If we wanted to wipe out Gaza, if we wanted to kill everybody, let’s say we just want to commit the genocide that they’re telling that we’re doing. I promise you, brother, it would take 24 hours, and they’re all dead. We just bomb them. We’re frigging texting them that we’re about to come in. We’re sending leaflets from the sky. We actually give them electricity, water and food. We arm our enemy. It’s like the most insane scenario. No one understands that the southern border of Gaza is with Egypt. It’s with another Muslim country. There’s no prison there. We’re not surrounding Gaza. So, once we understood that you have these situations where you’re going to have to shoot between people, when I built the shooting doctrine, which was kind of cool, because I didn’t have anybody above me. So, when I built the way to train, every time we fought, and in Israel, every day you’re fighting, every day. So, it’s a fighting army. It’s not, you know, Europe. So, every time something would happen, we would learn from what happened. Then we would implement it into our doctrine. So, it was a moving doctrine. In America, you guys are much more disciplined, and everything has to go through a whole chain of command, checks and balances. We didn’t have any of that shit. We just improvised, and we went.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 31:54
I built this job in ’97, called a sharpshooter, which you guys call the designated marksman, and I sat with you guys a lot on this, your military. In the beginning, I put six, and then nine, then 12, and up to 18 in every company in the IDF, has either an M4, a Tavor with an ACOG, Trijicon 4×32, and a nightscope that we have in Israel. And that helped us because we didn’t have anyone between the grunt and the sniper. We didn’t have any mid-level accuracy. Those sharpshooters were responsible for about 80% of all our kill shots. So, what we would do in our scenario is we would train, and what I would tell people to do is, when you’re training on the range, wherever you are inside range, outside range, whether you’re shooting a handgun or a rifle, it doesn’t matter. Make sure that you use simple things. You can use numbers. You can choose different colored balloons. You can use multiple targets, but be with a friend.

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A lot of times you go to the range with your son, with your friend, with your buddy, whatever. Go to a target and put four numbers on there. Divide the target into four squares, like Tic Tac Toe kind of thing, and write 1, 2, 3, and four on them like a square. Have your buddy say to you, two or one. When he says that number, you only hit that specific square. So, you’re training your brain to understand that I have to hit something small inside of the groups. There’s another area that I’m not allowed to hit, that’s off limits. It’s like shooting behind hostages. You know, we would have two different targets in Israel, and one would be behind the other. You would have to shoot one and not the other. Similar to hitting that guy in the middle of the circle that’s standing in front of all these kids. You have to hit him and not hit the kids. So, the surprise factor that you don’t know where you’re going to be shooting before you shoot, and that you have to hit something and not something else. It’s something very important to train the brain.

EvanNappen 33:53
That’s really cool, Mikey. That is great advice. I want to know, how can I get you to come to New Jersey? I want you to come here. Listen, you know, my good friends at WeShoot, who is also one of our beloved sponsors of our show. I know that you could come here, August 9. Are you available August 9, man, so that you could come and speak and folks can meet you in person? What do you say? Can I put you on the spot here and get you to come to New Jersey on August 9th?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 34:33 Firstly, I’m an old man and I don’t . . .

EvanNappen 34:37
I think you’re dangerous, but that’s okay.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 34:39
If you ask my wife, I don’t think that’s the word she uses. She has a whole bunch of adjectives, and I don’t think dangerous is one of them. I’ll ask her, and I’ll see what I can do. I would love to meet you in person and meet the guys. I love sharing my knowledge. It’s the only thing I got. So if I can.

EvanNappen 34:57
Well, WeShoot, you know, is a range in Lakewood, and they are just a fantastic facility. I got my certification for my carry license there. They do that kind of training, a great pro shop. They treat everyone like family, and they have tremendous outreach to the Jewish community, and they are welcoming to everybody and anybody. It’s just a fantastic place, and my listeners know that. But I know August 9th is a good date, and we can make those arrangements. Do you think you could come there to WeShoot?

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 35:38
I will do my very best. I have to get the okay from the boss in the house, and it’s definitely not me. I will do my best. I would love to meet you, and I would love to help. Maybe when I come there, I can clear up some misconceptions about class three and the way people carry in the IDF. And do they carry in the IDF? And do we have a round in the chamber or don’t have? Maybe talk a little bit about what the women do in our military? I’ll do my very, very best. This is recorded, right? So, we have the option of

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getting back in and letting you know. I’ll get back to you within 24 hours with that answer. And I promise you, I will do my very best. To be honest, it would be an honor to meet you and to talk to the guys in New Jersey.

EvanNappen 36:18
I’m confident that we can make this work. It would be so exciting to have you in New Jersey and for folks to meet you and talk with you. As a matter of fact, you’re working on and have created an elite marksman program. Right? Tell us about elitemarksman.com Tell us about that.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 36:39
I appreciate that. I retired about six months ago. I got kind of fortunate in business here and lived the American dream. My product that I was selling, a conversion kit, went viral, and it took off. So, I was lucky enough to retire.

EvanNappen 36:54
What was that kit? A lot of folks know about it.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 36:58
We used to call it the Roni, and now it was called the MCK. I got lucky. I built it with my hand. We molded my hand and that was the forward grip of the MCK, that micro conversion kit. I retired in January. So, it was about five, six months ago. I said to myself that like before I die, because when you get to our age, you start thinking about the end more than the beginning. I wanted to have something that all this knowledge that I had in my head, the way I built the idea of shooting doctrine that I could put it down in an Internet course. I could take the seven laws of shooting – ballistics, zeroing, night shooting, moving targets, dealing with stoppages, you know, every type of stuff that has to do with shooting with rifles. This production company filmed me, and it’s about nine hours of material. We built this website called elitemarksman.com, and there is a place that you can basically download the course. I developed all the idea of targets, specifically all the zeroing targets. So, when you buy the course from us, you get idea of cool targets. There’s like shoulder targets and head targets and zoom targets. It’s kind of cool stuff. You’ll never see those anywhere else. That’s part of the course. Normally, the course goes for $399, and because my guys knew I was coming on this podcast with you and because you are like the man of the man in the Second Amendment, you know, lawyer guys, you’re the top of the apex, when you look up, they see you. So, “Gun Lawyer” is going to be our code. If you use the code “Gun Lawyer” and you put that into the website, you get $100 discount. Instead of it being $399, it becomes $299, and you still get the targets. They’re sent to you free of charge. Maybe when we come out to New Jersey, if I can get out there, we can do something like that and get the guys the course and stuff like that. We’ll find something to do.

EvanNappen 39:08
So, go to elitemarksman.com. EliteMarksman.com That’s where Mikey’s course is. His complete video training and special targets. Normally, it’s $399, but if my listeners use the special coupon code, that I’m honored you called “Gun Lawyer”, they can get $100 off. Get the program designed by the head sniper of the IDF. Now that is pretty damn cool, and that is a special thing for Gun Lawyer listeners.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 39:51
There’s one other thing. When they download it, they get actual IDF shooting scenarios. The same scenarios that every Infantry Special Forces guy does in bootcamp. Then when they download the course, they can get what size target, what range, how many bullets, and going over which position you’re shooting in. So, they actually get the scenarios as well. It’s not just me standing in front of a classroom teaching. Not only are we giving them the targets, we’re also giving them “how to train and what to train”, how many rounds, required score, time, restrictions and all.

EvanNappen 40:28
Wow! Given the potential threat that even faces Americans and how we have so many long guns in America, we’re fortunate that we have the Second Amendment and even though we’re in a fight to maintain our rights, this is something that even New Jerseyans can do. And that is really cool. And you know, because we have the Second Amendment rights, of course, another sponsor of our show that I’m very proud of is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs. ANJRPC.org. They’re the group in New Jersey that fights for our rights. They are the group litigating in federal court, as we speak, to defeat the so-called assault firearm ban, that looks to limit the very firearms that we need. That the Isralies could have used to great effect. We need to get that declared unconstitutional. We’re getting there. We’re so close. They also are challenging the so-called large capacity magazine ban that New Jersey limits mags to 10 rounds. And that, too, is being fought by the Association along with the Carry Killer bill. That was the law that came into effect after Bruen. Even though we can get carry licenses, the Democrats tried to limit the utilitarian value, where you can carry, and create all these restrictions. So, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is fighting that, too. Every one of my listeners needs to be a member of the Association. Be part of the solution.

EvanNappen 42:16
Now let me just take one moment to shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law. If you need to know and understand New Jersey gun law, that is the source. It is the Bible of Jersey gun law. You should get a copy of it. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a Question and Answer format. It’s very user friendly. If you’re not a gun owner and want to become one, this book has a whole chapter on first gun. If you are a gun owner and you want to protect yourself and not fall into the trap that the matrix lays in New Jersey for unsuspecting gun owners who don’t fully understand how convoluted Jersey’s laws are, I’ve created this book to help folks do that. To order the book, go to evannappen.com and look for the orange book.

EvanNappen 43:04
I’m just so excited to have you on the show, Mikey. We have a part at the end of the show that’s extremely popular, and it’s called the GOFU, which is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. The beauty of GOFUs is that these are actual real lessons learned by folks at a very high cost. When we talk about them, the listener gets to learn them for free. I want to take this opportunity to ask you about GOFUs that you may have encountered, particularly maybe related to accidental discharges or anything else that you think individuals can learn from. You are my spokesman for this shows GOFUs.

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LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 43:51
Wow. First, it’s an honor that you put me on this pedestal, and I don’t want to disappoint you, man. I don’t want to disappoint you. So, one thing I’m going to say before we start, one tip to all your listeners. When people ask me, Mikey, you’ve taught 500,000 soldiers to shoot. You’ve taught 1000s of Americans that were going to Afghanistan or Iraq. They would stop by Israel and do something called “lessons learned”, and I would train those guys. I’ve been in Camp Lejeune, Fort Bragg, and you know, I love the guys here. I love the military here. You asked me what is the one weakness in shooters across the board? Obviously, the trigger pull is. Everyone’s really bad at that. But let’s put that aside because it’s hard for me to fix that on this show. Speed, speed, speed. Everyone wants to look cool. Everyone wants to be Rambo. Everyone wants the speed shooting. Shooting faster than your body allows you to shoot is the main reason why an IDF soldier misses the target. You have to shoot as fast as you can, as long as you’re hitting 100%. If because of speed, you now are missing the target, you have to slow down. The enemy will not be impressed by your speed. He will die because you hit him. So, if you shot so fast that you missed the target, what did you accomplish? Absolutely nothing. So, that’s one tip.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 45:24
Regarding accidental discharges, which was a major problem in the Israeli army, I have like a three minute story. Is that okay? Is that too much, Evan, or is that okay?

EvanNappen 45:33
No, it’s fine. It sounds like your GOFU is something that I think Wyatt Earp once put in in a great quote. He said, you have to learn to be slow in a hurry.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 45:48
No, I did not know that quote. Yeah, that’s very cool.

EvanNappen 45:51
Well, there’s an American western hero that I think is really saying what you’re saying about trying to be fast. In reality, you have to be slow, but in a hurry.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 46:05
Yes, smooth is fast, right? So, our problem in the Israeli army, I’m embarrassed to say this to to your listeners because everyone looks at the Israeli army as like a kick ass army, but we have our weaknesses. Our major weakness is because our fathers did not shoot with guns in sports. We don’t have guns laying around the house, and there is no safe in anyone’s house with guns. So, the first time a soldier sees a gun, it’s at 18. He does it until he’s 21. Then he does reserve duty three days a year for the next 20-30 years. So, the way the IDF, the entire Israeli army, it doesn’t matter if it’s the Navy, the Air Force, the Special Forces, infantry, tanks, artillery, engineering, it doesn’t matter. The way we checked a weapon since 1948, since Israel was created, until probably the middle of the early 2000s was that if you had a gun, whether it was a Galil, whether it was a Tavor, whether it was an M16, M4, you would cock the gun twice with the Galil, you would have to open up the safety, because the safety stops the gun from being cocked, you would cock the gun twice, open up the safety, pull the trigger and

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then close the safety. With the M4, you have to recock the gun to engage the safety. This is how every gun was checked in the IDF.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 47:20
Now, we don’t have those little thingies, those machines that you put the barrel in, and you pull the trigger like they do in the American military. Those little, I don’t know what they’re called, those little

EvanNappen 47:29 Bullet traps.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 47:30
Bullet traps. Thank you. I appreciate the help on the vocabulary and the knowledge. So, every time you go in to a base in Israel, every time you go out of a base in Israel, every time you go into the field in Israel, every time you come off the field, every time you get on one of those little buses that will take you around in the army or get off the bus, you are always checking your freaking gun. When you finish cleaning your gun, you’ve got to check your gun. It was absolute stupidity. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Now, unfortunately, I wasn’t in charge of that at that time. They have their Safety Division in the IDF that says how to check a gun. I can’t even tell you how many, hundreds, hundreds of accidental discharges. When? When we were checking the weapon. Why do you check a weapon? To make sure you’re not going to do an accidental discharge. What a paradox. What an irony. We check the gun to make sure we don’t have a bullet in the chamber. And because we’re checking the gun, we’re actually doing the accidental discharge. Insanity in every level of your brain.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 48:37
Now, unfortunately, in the Israeli army, when you go into a base, the guy doing guard duty is not the best fighter. You’re trying to show off. So, you do this thing real quick. Do, do, do. You cock it twice, open up the safety, and you pull the trigger almost in one action. Less than a second. You do those things. Double cock, open safety, and pull trigger. The frigging idiots would forget that they have a magazine inside the gun. Because in Israel, you don’t go with a magazine in the gun. Only when you go past the green green line. There’s a certain area in Israel that once you pass it, you put a magazine in the in the gun. When you’re in the regular base, you don’t have a magazine in the gun, at least back then. So, they would forget that they have a magazine in, and they’re so used to checking the gun all the time. They would cock the gun (in the U.S., we call it racking the slide) which would put a bullet in the chamber. They would cock it again, the bullet would fly out, and a new one would go in the chamber. Then they would open up the safety and pull the trigger in such a short time that they didn’t even realize it.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 49:30
So, in the late ’90s, I started saying guys, why don’t we just cock it three times. Let’s say the idiot forgot the magazine is in and he didn’t do the check the way he was supposed to and didn’t verify that there’s no ammo physically in the magazine. Well, let’s say he screwed up, and under the thesis, a soldier will always screw up. He will always screw up. That’s what we do. So, let’s say he forgot about the magazine, and he cocked it three times. Even the moron is going to see three bullets flying out of his freaking gun. So, he does not open up the safety, and he does not pull the trigger. Worse comes to

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worse, he has a bullet in the chamber. He then says, oops. Now he takes out the magazine and gets the last bullet out. I would teach this for years. But the problem was, Evan, I wasn’t in charge of it.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 50:16
So, a real quick story because it’s life and death. There was a situation where one of the infantry units were in the territories, he cleans his gun in one of the rooms, which they are not supposed to do, by the way. He puts the magazine back in, he checks the gun, and he does the mistake. He accidentally shoots a bullet into the back of his friend. Did not kill him, but hit him with a bullet. When this happens, a Brigadier General does a little, I don’t know how to say tuck here, investigation to understand what happened, what can be learned, so we don’t fuck up again. They invite me to that. I tell the Brigadier General, you know, I’ve been talking about this for decades. We should be friggin cocking the gun three times. He says, oh my god, I love that idea. I wish I would have known it before. But he made the law and from that day forward, we did three cocks. That lasted, listen to me, two weeks because the Head of Defense heard that we changed the cocking This is showing you the discipline or the lack of discipline in Israel. He said no, you guys don’t have the authority to change the way we check a weapon. I’m not doing that. Screw you. We’re going back to the old way. I felt like an idiot because I started teaching the new way, and then we got cancelled.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 51:26
A week passes, Evan, a week, a soldier in the tank division on the Lebanese border. Same exact scenario. Inside of the room, cleans his gun, puts the magazine and checks the weapon. But this time the accidental discharge killed his friend. Killed another guy intakes. Now, when someone dies in the IDF, the investigation is done by the Chief of Staff. Well, at least it’s brought to him at the end. The Chief of Staff is the highest person in the Israeli military. There is no one higher. He’s the only guy. There’s one of them. I don’t know what you guys call a five star general, it’s our top. So, the Head of Safety, his balls are starting to shake, because he knows I’m going to be there. The Chief of Staff is going to hear that if they would have friggin listened to me, this guy would be alive.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 52:12
So, he calls me, panicking before then, and he says, Mikey, I want to see your new system that you’re talking about. I want you to show me how you take out the checkil, that’s the pin, the injection pin. Show me how this is still safe. I showed him that if it’s a live round, it will always come out because we check it 60 degrees. If it’s a shell, who gives a shit, a shell doesn’t do anything. There’s a lot. I don’t want to go into too much depth. After we did this test in the range, he said, I’m going to change the rule. We’re going to do what you want. But I’m asking you, in front of the Chief of Staff, don’t bring it up. Just shut up when he asks if you have anything to say. Mikey, you say nothing. So, I had to put my ego aside and say what’s more important to me? Being right or the future of the IDF? So, I shut the hell up. Then he changed it. When it got to my turn, the Chief of Staff said Mike, do you have anything to say, sir? No, sir, I have nothing to say.

LTC (Ret.) Michael Hartman 53:02
Now the way the Israeli army checks their weapon, whether it’s a Tavor or M4, its three checks. You cock the gun, or you rack the gun, three times. That’s it. So, all the accidental discharges are gone during checking. All the people being hit by accidental discharges is gone. It saved so many lives in

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Israel. But it was very hard conceptually, because for years and years and years, everyone wants to pull the trigger. They want to verify that there’s no bullet in the chamber.

EvanNappen 53:29
That is really great. Just think of all the people you helped by that, just that change alone. Not to mention all the training, all the experiences and everything you’ve been sharing and teaching through the years. I am just so thrilled to have had you on Gun Lawyer. Mikey, it was an absolute honor, and I want to have you come back. I just want to remind the listeners again about elitemarksman.com They’ve got a special Gun Lawyer discount of $100. You’ve heard from Mikey, and you want to get the training from this man. This is fantastic stuff. I just want to say thank you so much. And I want to remind everybody that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

EvanNappen 54:30
Breaking News – Evan Nappen here, and I have some breaking news. Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman, who developed the shooting program for the IDF, has confirmed that he will be at WeShoot on August 9th from 9 am to 1 pm. You don’t want to miss this. Make sure you check out weshootusa.com Go to elitemarksman.com Mark your calendars for August 9th from nine to one to meet and listen to LTC. Michael “Mikey” Hartman.

Speaker 3 55:09
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media Production The music used in his broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E189_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 188-Trump Can’t Own Guns Now Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 188SUMMARY KEYWORDS

nra, president trump, gun, law, new jersey, convicted felon, new york, prohibited, list, political, overturned, firearm, president, guns, abiding citizens, convicted, conviction, absurd, great, disclose

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, the big, big news, of course, is that President Trump became a convicted felon in the State of New York. That’s right. This was a state court, and it shows. I’m sure if you followed the trial, you would see just how unbelievably political and unfair it was. There’s no doubt in my mind at all that it’s going to be overturned on appeal. There are so many issues, so many Constitutional violations. Basically, the judge set out to get him convicted at any cost, and he obviously doesn’t care if he’s going to get overturned on appeal. His mission was to torpedo Trump. And when it’s reversed on appeal, well, that’s good, but that’ll be after the election. So, there’s the game. It was so patently obvious.

Evan Nappen 01:23
Apart from the disgust of seeing this devastating blow to our justice system and officially making us a banana republic, of course, by doing this to your political enemies, the interesting thing for us, because what do we care about? We care about guns. Is to now say and realize that President Trump is prohibited from having a gun. That’s right. As a convicted felon, he has lost his gun rights everywhere in the United States. Because if you’re convicted of felonies, which should be any crime in which the penalty exceeds one year, which is defined under Federal law as being over two years. The offenses that they convicted Trump of do arguably carry a potential of over two years in jail. He joins the ranks of prohibited people when it comes to guns.

Evan Nappen 02:37
So, now think about just how absurd and stupid this situation is. He was formerly the President, and he’s the Republican candidate for President. He’s leading in the polls, and as a matter of fact, all this law fair is so obviously political, it’s actually helping his campaign. It’s backfiring on the Democrats because it’s so clear what’s going on, and it’s disgusting to any reasonable person. But he’s on a path to being reelected as President. If he is reelected, and I suspect he will be, and this conviction does not get overturned before he becomes President, which is unlikely because the appeals process takes a long time. Now, there may be some ability for that to happen. I don’t know. But most likely, it won’t. That means that the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States, who literally has his fingers on the nuclear arsenal of America is not legal to possess a .22 rifle. Think about that. That’s right. The President of the United States, who has the Armed Forces of America at his disposal, can’t have a handgun. Can’t have a rifle. Can’t have a shotgun. Nope. Because he’s a prohibited person.

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Evan Nappen 04:30
Now you can be President and still be a convicted felon. As a matter of fact, he could be in jail and be President. You’re not prohibited from being President and all the perks that come with being President. But he cannot pardon himself for this New York matter because it’s a State political conviction. It’s a State persecution of President Trump. The only pardon that could work would be a pardon from the Governor. Of course, the anti-gun, left wing, horrible Governor of New York isn’t going to pardon Trump. So, this conviction, until some greater authority overturns it, makes him a prohibited person under Federal law, and frankly, in every state in the United States, for a non-violent felony. It doesn’t matter, when it comes to gun laws, how unfair, ridiculous, political, and absurd the conviction is. It’s still a conviction and that makes him a prohibited person.

Evan Nappen 06:01
But it does illustrate just how absurd our felon in possession laws is. They don’t distinguish between violent and non-violent offenses. They don’t even do that. At one time, way back early on, they did, and it was only violent felons that were prohibited. And that wasn’t that far back. But it was far enough back. Then, like everything else, the encroachment on rights began. It then went federally to just about any convicted felon. If your jail sentence exceeds two years and it’s either labeled a felony or if it’s a misdemeanor that exceeds two years, then it’s technically a federal prohibitor and you can’t have a gun. So, this Federal prohibitor is so broad and absurd. We’ve talked before about how it has institutionalized racism built in because of the high ratio of blacks versus whites that are felons, and Hispanics that are felons compared to whites. So that built-in unfairness is there.

Evan Nappen 07:33
The thing that really gets me as unfair is that the federal law has a relief from disabilities law that says you can move to get your rights back by applying to the ATF, etc., and then if they deny, you could go to court. But that program has been unfunded by the Federal government since 1992, by Charles Schumer and the Democrats. So, individuals that are good people that are not violent people, that have convictions like President Trump, although not too many do, because that was so specialized and focused in this contrived, ridiculous theory to get him. But basically, if you have white collar crime, if you have anything like that, you cannot get your rights back because the provision in Federal law is unfunded. So, what it means is that if you become a convicted felon and do not get your conviction reversed, you’re prohibited for life from exercising your Second Amendment rights. That’s just an outrage. It really is. It’s just an absolute outrage. Things need to be done to fix that. And, you know, President Trump becoming President again, I think, this experience will make that even more likely to happen. Because if folks could get these bills forward, to finally provide the ability for a Constitutional right to be restored to millions of worthy people, we need to do it. If you think, well, felons are felons, and I don’t care and all that, but look at what they did to President Trump. They can do that to you. You may think they won’t, but you’d be surprised.

Evan Nappen 09:48
Because I’ll tell you what. Throughout his trial, I saw reflections of some of the bullshit that I’ve had to deal with in New Jersey courts. Now I’ve never seen that much piled on of absolute ridiculousness, unfairness, and insanity. I mean, all stops were pulled out for President Trump to make sure he got

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convicted. But those rights violations, you know, there’s plenty of rights violations going on targeting gun owners. We’ve talked about the Gun Owner Gulag as well. You know that they’re out to get us and get you. So, you need to know that. This is just a glaring, glowing, giant example of what you may face and to lose your Second Amendment rights because of politics, and/or because of an absurd gun law that is blatantly violating our Second Amendment but hasn’t been overturned yet. These are wrong, flat out wrong. We need to do something to change this system so that good people, good people are not prevented from exercising their God given natural Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. It has to stop.

Evan Nappen 11:22
I believe we will get there, and we possibly are going to get there incrementally. The Supreme Court is now looking at the Rahimi case. (United States v. Rahimi, Docket No. 22-915) This is probably going to touch upon what does create or doesn’t create and maybe even give us a test of what makes for a disqualifier or not. We may be able to use that to make even further inroads. And you know, the folks helping to fight for those inroads is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s your state Association. They’re the umbrella organization of gun clubs for New Jersey. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they have the attack going on in federal court, challenging the assault firearm ban, the large capacity magazine ban. You know, those pejorative terms that the anti-gunners name them to make them actual terms in law. Yeah, those laws. They’re attacking them now. They’re challenging them. We’re looking forward to seeing some action on that. They’re also challenging the Carry Killer law as we speak. You want to be a part of the Association because that makes you part of the solution. Make sure you’re a member. You’ll be glad you joined. You’ll get the email alerts, and you’ll know what’s going on. You get a great newsletter, and you’ll know that you’re doing your part. Go to anjrpc.org. Make sure you do. Make sure you join ANJRPC.org. Be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 13:12
I also want to mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, conveniently located in Central Jersey, right off the Parkway. It’s a fantastic resource and a wonderful place for you to shoot. They have a great proshop. You can get fully outfitted and equipped, all set for the best gun that fits you. They’ve got some really great stuff. Check out that Rost Martin. We’re going to be talking more about the Rost Martin in future shows because that’s really popular and just a phenomenal gun. They have it there, and they have it at a great price. They also have great training. They have instructors to get your CCARE so you can get your carry permit. That’s where I got my training, and you can get yours there, too. So, make sure you check out weshootusa.com. That’s their website, weshootusa.com. It has great photography. They are a dynamic gun range, and they have such a great outreach to the public. They have done a magnificent job in promoting our Second Amendment rights by providing this great resource and opportunity for folks to shoot, to learn, and to get equipped. It’s a great place, and I know you’ll love it. So, go to WeShoot. Check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 15:01
Now, I want to shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun laws. It is used by everybody and anybody that wants to know about gun law in New Jersey. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. And man, the amount of hours that I put into that book, hundreds and

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hundreds and hundreds of man hours. Geez, I could have made more money working at McDonald’s. It’s not about the money. It’s about getting the information out so that you and I, because I go back to my own book even, can understand the gun laws. It’s used by the State Police Firearms Unit. It’s used by police agencies, used by attorneys, used by judges, and used by law-abiding citizens throughout New Jersey. And that’s who I wrote it for. So, get yourself a copy today. New Jersey Gun Law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. When you get the book, scan the front QR code, and for free, not much for free these days, but the Gun Lawyer podcast is free. The QR code is free for you to join the subscriber database where you get access to the archives, all the updates to the book, and you’ll get notices of law changes. So, this way, your book stays current, and you know it. So, buy your copy. Go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website, EvanNappen.com. You will find the big orange book right there, click it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days.

Evan Nappen 16:48
Hey, let me tell you about some other exciting news beside President Trump losing his gun rights. And that is a unanimous win in the Supreme Court by the NRA. Unanimous. Think about that. All the judges said the NRA was right. And what does this involve? Well, surprisingly, not really the Second Amendment, but the First Amendment. It involves the First Amendment. This came about from NRA suing the State of New York, which were using their powers to try to stop various businesses and insurance companies from doing business with the NRA, because they didn’t like NRA’s politics. And that, my friends, is a First Amendment violation. That’s a violation of free speech. The Government cannot pick and choose its political positions and then use its influence to try to stop other businesses from dealing with organizations like the NRA.

Evan Nappen 18:07
This lawsuit was even backed by the ACLU. Think about that. The NRA and the ACLU were on the same side. There was a unanimous decision out of the Supreme Court on this case. That shows you how absolutely political and screwed up New York is. What’s really interesting is that the same politics of New York that were so bad against the NRA, causing a complete, unanimous reversal of their policies. It’s the same politics of New York that convicted President Trump. New York is a fascist state. New York is a banana republic. New York is a place I would never live. It is a demonstrably anti-rights and will go after, with a vengeance, anybody who has a political difference with them. The NRA victory really illustrates that. So, it’s kind of interesting that it happened at the same time that we watched New York injustice apply to President Trump. The New York injustice that was applied to the NRA has been quashed by a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court.

Evan Nappen 19:49
Now, what this means is that NRA can pursue its civil claims, its lawsuit, against New York, and that, my friends, can mean big, big money. It could mean the millions and millions of dollars that New York has tried to take from NRA, from their pursuit of NRA, under their nonprofit corporate laws, and those in the lawsuits brought regarding that. Well, now, this win can be the moment to recoup what New York has taken and is trying to take and maybe even get more money than that. All this while NRA is rebuilding. We now have a new Executive Vice President and new blood at the top of NRA. So, things I think are turning around there. Let’s hope so. Because we want to see NRA great again. I think we’re

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on a good track now, and with hard work, and continuing in this regard, we can do it, folks. We can do it.

Evan Nappen 21:20
Now I have an interesting letter here from a listener, and the listener’s name is Ryan. And Ryan says, Hi, Evan. I want to bring something up that I heard from a buddy who’s a New Jersey State Trooper. My buddy informed me that if you are pulled over by a trooper and after you disclose that you’re carrying a firearm, they will do the following. Now, of course in New Jersey, we have a Duty to Disclose. So, if you’re pulled over and you have that encounter, you have to tell the officer that you’re carrying a handgun, and you have to be able to show your carry permit. If you fail to tell them that, it’s a fourth degree felony level crime. If you are convicted of that, you’ll lose your gun rights just like President Trump. So, make sure you disclose. At the moment, we have to. I don’t know if that’s Constitutional. I don’t think it is. But for now, it’s the law.

Evan Nappen 22:26
Anyway, continuing on with Ryan. He says that he heard from this Trooper that they’ll do the following. Number one, ask you to get out of the car. Number two, handcuff you to detain you. He has parentheses but not arrested. Number three, pat you down, find your firearm and remove it from the holster. Number four, confirm the serial number on the firearm matches their system. Number five, if all checks out, they place the firearm on the driver’s side seat of the car. Number six, release you. Ryan says, I think this is totally unfair to the residents of New Jersey. I wanted to pass this information on in the hopes that we educate our law-abiding citizens to prevent them from being on the next episode’s GOFU. I fear this will cause panic and potentially create overreaction/fear when being detained.

Evan Nappen 23:26
So, let me say this. I really appreciate this letter. I appreciate all the letters that I get from my great listeners. But I don’t know the veracity of this. Now, I’m not saying that Ryan or anybody is not telling the truth at all. I just don’t know. I have not gotten independent corroboration of this taking place. But it wouldn’t surprise me if it was taking place, that’s for sure. So, I’ll put it out to the audience. If anybody knows of actual cases where people have disclosed and this has become the policy that people are experiencing, then that needs to be known, and I think action needs to be taken. But I’ll just put this out there. Ryan, I appreciate your sending me this. If we can get further corroboration on this and if this is in fact a widespread practice or a policy, then that’s something we’re going to want to look into very, very hard because it is pretty outrageous some of these things. You know, when you’re put in handcuffs and you’re detained, it means you’re not free to leave. So, technically you are arrested. Now, of course, you’re not charged with anything, but you’re not free to leave when you’re in handcuffs. You’re not able to go anywhere. That rolls right into implication of other rights kicking in right away. These are all interesting things here. So, if anybody knows of actual cases, let me know. I’d appreciate it very much.

Evan Nappen 25:08
Let me also bring to your attention what is actually one of our favorite moments on the Gun Lawyer podcast. And that’s the GOFU. The GOFU is the Gun Owner Fuck Up. GOFUs are expensive lessons that somebody else learned and that you get to learn on the cheap, for free, just by listening to Gun Lawyer. Today’s GOFU is this. Make sure you have a list of the guns that you have with the serial

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numbers, makes, and models. Even photos, if you can. Make sure that this list is hidden somewhere, encrypted somewhere. Somewhere only where you know where it is. But make sure you have it. Don’t leave it with your guns in the gun safe. I get cases where all the guns are confiscated, and property receipts aren’t given, or they’re incomplete. Guns are missing. There’s no record. I see this a lot, folks. If you have your private list, your private record, we can go from that list. It will help us to get all of your property accounted for and returned. It’s also not a bad idea to include on that list other valuables that you may have. Valuable knives, precious metals like gold, silver, and lead. Yeah. Take the pictures. Make an inventory and make the list. But hide the list. Keep it private, encrypted. Disguise it. Because that is your private list. I have had GOFUs similar to this where the individual left their list with the guns, and guess what else disappeared with the guns? The list. So, don’t go double GOFUing or trying to avoid a GOFU, and then setting yourself up that you’ve failed in that. So, this is a good tip. It’s important because it’s real. So, folks, this is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect law-abiding citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from law-abiding citizens.

Speaker 3 27:55
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E188_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 187-NJ Judge Goes Out Of His Way To Assassinate Your Character Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 187SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, new jersey, court, firearms, case, permit, withdraw, law, hearing, issue, great, petitioner, handgun, references, purchase, due process, domestic violence, people, order, ptc

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3, Louis Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Today in the Gun Lawyer studio, I have with us my brother, Louis Nappen, who is also an ace gun lawyer. He recently won an excellent case in New Jersey at the Appellate level that we want to tell all of you about. These are the things that we deal with in New Jersey, and it’s just outrageous, beyond belief. But luckily, we did get justice in the end. Lou, why don’t you lay the groundwork as to this recent Appellate Division decision and what led up to it.

Louis Nappen 01:02
Great. Well, I want to put something out there. First off, I’ve been doing this for about 18-20 years. And I have to say, I have never had this issue before the Appellate Division. It’s completely novel. It was new research I had to do. Now with that being said, hopefully, that intrigues you. What kind of new gun issue could have happened? That we haven’t seen.

Evan Nappen 01:25
That we haven’t seen practice. I mean, it’s like, are you kidding me? And yet no part of the thing about practice of law. It seems like there’s no end to the bullshit. Just no end to it.

Louis Nappen 01:38
So, in this case, and it does use initials like every other case I’m here. It seems it’s always initials because I do go out of my way to protect the privacy of my clients. It is only initials because I did request that as part of my thing. Otherwise, his name would be out there, and we’d be hurting his reputation, possibly.

Evan Nappen 01:56
And it would defeat the whole purpose of why we went down this road.

Louis Nappen 02:00
So, let me explain because now the intrigue is all there. What is this about? It’s In re, in regarding, Application of KD for a Permit to Carry a Handgun. This is a Permit to Carry, not purchase. A Permit to Carry a Handgun, pursuant to N.J.S. 2C:58-4., which has all been opened up now in New Jersey. You’ve discussed ad infinitum about how, after Bruen, we can get these now as citizens. It used to be only about 600 people. Now, the last I heard it about 135,000.

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Evan Nappen 02:31
Tens of thousands. Yeah, really quick, I just want to mention. When you apply for a carry permit, the standard for a carry permit is the exact same standard as for a Firearms Purchaser ID Card and for a pistol purchase permit. That standard is found where, Lou? Where’s the license?

Louis Nappen 02:50
That’s under N.J.S. 2C:58.3. There are the standards for permits to purchase and Firearm Purchaser ID Cards. For a Permit to Carry you also have to do the shooting qualifications, of course. But the standards for denial are basically the same. They are the same standards.

Evan Nappen 03:10
So, in this case, our client went under the old system where you first applied to the chief, and then the application went to the judge. In the interim, the law changed. But that’s not the key issue here. Was he approved or denied by his chief?

Louis Nappen 03:26
Yeah. Because he was one of the earlier ones to apply. He already had a Firearms Purchaser ID card and permits to purchase (a handgun). He already had firearms. So, he’s already been vetted. He applied under the old standard to his local police chief. Now under that standard of that time, before they changed the law, in part I’d like to say, thanks to our Carlson decision, and we can talk about that. But his Chief approved him, in answer to your question. So, he went applied to his chief who approved him. Now, you say like, well, if that’s the case, you should be granted it. But the issuing authority at that time was not the chief. The chief had to only make whether he approved or not in terms of whether he thought it was proper. He doesn’t grant them though. And he had to send the packet . . .

Evan Nappen 04:17
It was a two-step process. One of the only decent things about the Carry Killer Law and that giant mountain of dog crap is that deep in it was a little gold coin, which was the removal of judges from the process. And here is a great example of why.

Louis Nappen 04:36
This case exemplifies it to the nth degree. Why it is so important that that change happened. Okay, so it went up. We’re waiting for the court to issue his permit. The court says it’s not. We’re setting it for a hearing and it’s about what’s going on. He says the court wants to have a hearing. Well, per the Carlson decision, which mandates that they must have a hearing, that was our case that went up to the Supreme Court. I’m proud of that one very much.

Evan Nappen 05:08
That wasn’t just a win. That was a unanimous win – all seven judges voted for our side and said that you have a right to a hearing in which we enshrined due process for carry. So, getting a hearing is an important thing in due process.

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Louis Nappen 05:24
And here’s where that plays out. Because they used to do, what it was is you only got a hearing if you had been denied by the chief or Superintendent. Then what judges were doing, if you got approved by your police chief, the judge would just deny you without a hearing. The statute only said you got a hearing if you were denied by the chief on appeal. KD was approved by the chief and sent it up, but now he’s entitled to a hearing if the court intends to deny or has concerns. So, we were like, okay, this gentleman is not perfect. He does have some what they called encounters with police, but he has no disqualifiers, no convictions that bar him, no restraining orders that bar him, none of that. He’s had firearms for some time. So, it’s not like he had something . . .

Evan Nappen 05:27
The chief approved him every time.

Louis Nappen 06:15
Right. Exactly. So, here he goes to the court. And what we wanted to do here is we wanted to make sure. We want to see what’s in the discovery. What is it that the concern here is, because you just don’t know.

Evan Nappen 06:30
What’s discovery? Let’s tell them what discovery is.

Louis Nappen 06:31
The best thing about discovery, you might want to watch “My Cousin Vinny”. They discuss it in that movie. It’s a classic movie.

Evan Nappen 06:32
All right, we’re hitting a new low. Because we’re citing “My Cousin Vinny”.

Louis Nappen 06:43
No, that movie actually had good advisors on it, and it’s not that bad when it comes to legal procedure. She talks about how you’re entitled to it in that sense, discovery, to know about the facts of the case, both positive and negative.

Louis Nappen 07:00
Right. So, we were waiting for this discovery. They set it for a hearing date, and I put in my request to please provide the discovery so that we go in prepared and know what their concern might be, in particular. If there’s anything in particular, because he might think he knows his record, but I’ve been surprised by clients who find out there’s something there that they didn’t know about or forgot about.

Evan Nappen 07:00
So, it’s all the arrest reports, incidents reports, anything the State intends to rely on, videos, etc. You’re entitled to it all up front. So that way, there’s no surprises, and your attorney and you can adequately prepare for the hearing. And that’s called due process.

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Louis Nappen 07:37
Or it’s just only an error and just not them.

Louis Nappen 07:41
Right. Exactly. Just plain error. And we have to say no, that wasn’t him. You’re getting Senior and Junior mixed up.

Evan Nappen 07:47
Well, yeah, we’ve had that any number of times.

Louis Nappen 07:48
Yes, that’s right. Or two people with the same name. That happens, too. It went there. So, within the week before the hearing, approximately, I finally got discovery. Now we look at it, and we say, okay, he can clean himself up a little bit. He never took advantage of laws that can clean yourself up. And also, the law had changed so that permits were now going to be issued by police chiefs.

Evan Nappen 07:49
Only. So, his chief had already approved him. Under the new law, you get it on issuance of the chief. So, why are we going to now have a hearing to get a judge issued permit and risk a denial, when the law has been changed for it to be done strictly by the chief? So, why take that risk, when it’s unnecessary? And what was our advice?

Louis Nappen 08:18
Well, one of the reasons why you don’t want a denial is it’s a question on the application form. On all future applications, he would have to say “yes” to that for no good reason. So, now we have the discovery, and we see what he has. We know that we have a friendly police chief in his favor. We can also, or on his own whichever way he wants to go, clean himself up and make himself just. You know, why have that stuff out there?

Evan Nappen 08:45
And keep in mind, he’s going into this with an approval by the chief. He has not been denied anything yet.

Louis Nappen 08:49
So, approximately three days before the hearing, which is plenty of time before the hearing because I only got the discovery a couple of days before that, I sent to the court that we are going to withdrawal. Now the petitioner . . .

Evan Nappen 09:30 Withdrawal what?

Louis Nappen 09:31
We wanted to withdraw his application . . .

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Evan Nappen 09:38
And it hadn’t been decided yet.

Louis Nappen 09:41
Correct. We wanted to withdraw that because it hadn’t been decided yet. He had an approval by the chief. So, it wouldn’t be a denial below, and we wanted to withdraw the Because there was no sense in what we just discussed going to a hearing. So, and as the appellant, you hold that right to be able to withdraw because it’s your appeal, your case, your appeal. If you decide you don’t want to proceed, you can say, I’m withdrawing. Now, most courts are happy. One less thing on my docket. I don’t have to deal with this. Terrific, goodbye. Here’s the order. They can’t sign it fast enough to be done with a case.

Evan Nappen 10:21
Right. Because it clears another case off their docket. They don’t have to do anything, write anything. Hold the hearing, all that time? They’re like, great. Go, go. Have a nice day. We’re glad you withdrew. Right.

Louis Nappen 10:33
Right. So, we’re waiting for the order of withdrawal. If I recall correctly, I sent in, attached please find the proposed order withdrawing. It’s just really one sentence. We withdraw in that sense. Hereby withdraws his appeal. I forget the timeline exactly on it, but shortly thereafter, we get an opinion

Evan Nappen 10:59 How long of an opinion?

Louis Nappen 11:00
and a statement of reasons. We got an order saying I am allowing them to withdraw, basically what it said. I can. It said. Wait a minute. I grant his request to withdraw, but that the court finds that KD would be an ineligible for a permit to carry a handgun had he proceeded. Then there’s 17.

Evan Nappen 11:28
Well, isn’t that wonderful? When there’s been no hearing to actually determine that, and he’s pre- judged. He’s pre-judged.

Louis Nappen 11:36
Exactly. It’s a 17 page opinion based on . . .

Evan Nappen 11:39
Wait. How long was the opinion?

Louis Nappen 11:41 Seventeen pages.

Evan Nappen 11:43
Seventeen pages of slamming our client.

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Louis Nappen 11:47
And it’s all based on hearsay, because all he has before him, since there was no hearing, are whatever police reports, incident reports, contacts . . .

Evan Nappen 11:54
Whatever somebody may have said.

Evan Nappen 11:55
No corroboration or may have alleged or . . .

Louis Nappen 11:55
Whatever’s there. May have alleged.

Louis Nappen 12:00
Or foundation. Nothing. None of that. So, it’s just, these are all the allegations or the contacts that he’s had. And I find that in the interest of public health, safety, welfare, he would not be eligible for this permit.

Evan Nappen 12:17
So, this would be similar to a criminal prosecutor deciding to drop the criminal case, and the judge signing the order of dismissal but doing 17 pages saying how he would have found him guilty if he had a trial.

Louis Nappen 12:31 Had he had a trial.

Evan Nappen 12:32
But there was no trial, and no defense was presented. No evidence. Nothing. No due process. But he would have found him guilty anyway. Isn’t that nice?

Louis Nappen 12:42
Right. That’s exactly what it was. Now, we have for years argued, of course, with the court and saying that the Executive Branch and the Judicial Branch need to be separated. Why our the courts being an issuing authority of a permit. That’s an Executive Function. The courts are there to arbitrate when you have a difference with the police or the state in terms of whether something, whatever it is your application.

Evan Nappen 13:08
The court is supposed to be a neutral judicial authority to determine the issue. A neutral judicial authority.

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Louis Nappen 13:18
Right. So, for years New Jersey, and when they only were issuing subcontract, whatever it was, they held on to that. But now that they had to hold all these hearings and do all this. Bottom line is, so he gets this thing. He has a withdrawal. But now why is that a problem? And that’s important to look at. So, you say, okay, it’s withdrawn, and this opinion doesn’t matter. Well, no, that’s not true. Because this statement of reasons why he should be found ineligible sits in his gun file, in his file, in his history, forever, as a finding that he’s ineligible for a carry permit. Even though the actual application never had a hearing, never went anywhere. So, it’s a prospective judgment.

Evan Nappen 14:05
And wasn’t that specifically stated in the opinion that that was what it was intended to do?

Louis Nappen 14:11
Umm, well, I’d have to reread the whole thing as to that he should not be I mean . . .

Evan Nappen 14:18
That he should not be granted this permit and that he’s barred.

Louis Nappen 14:23
Exactly. All right. I can find it, if you really want to go into that. Well, I have it here. I mean, it’s a 17 page thing in terms of . . . The court finds that if appellant were granted a permit to carry he would pose a danger to self or others pursuant to the catch all provision of 58-3. Moreover, permitting applicant to carry a handgun “would not be in the interest of public health, safety, or welfare,” pursuant to 58-3.c.5 because many of the incidences . . . It goes on and on.

Evan Nappen 14:51
Yeah, and guess what? That’s what why we call it the all inclusive weasel clause. Any subjective basis for denial. When we had John Petrolino on Gun Lawyer, he looked at the stats and how that’s used with institutionalized racism to deny blacks at a greater ratio than whites as well. And that’s where the abuse takes place. So, here is an example of the all inclusive weasel clause being exercised without a trial, without due process, without anything presented, because we withdrew.

Louis Nappen 15:27
And all it does is hurt. It would ruin his reputation. Okay, we’re going to get into that. So, we do the appeal here. I think it’s just for fun, because I’ve never written a brief like this. I want to read my seven points that I raised. By the way, it’s law school 101, the courts are not supposed to. I mean, you really do learn this first year constitutional law that courts are, unless there’s a case or controversy before the courts, our Constitution talks about this. The courts are not supposed to give advisory opinions. You can’t just say, hey, okay, that you hear those time. If this were to happen, what would you do? No, the Courts are not supposed to issue those. They have to have an actual case before them to deal with. In this case, they did not because it was withdrawn.

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Louis Nappen 16:16
So, the court below had. These are my points that I argued, my legal arguments. The court below had no jurisdiction to issue prospective judgments upon a withdrawn application and such advisory opinions regarding Petitioner’s qualifications should be struck from the record. Point 2, the court below erred by making judgments without a hearing and therefore said judgments should be struck from the record. Point 3, the court below erred by finding that Petitioner informed the court of his intent to withdraw after Petitioner had withdrawn his application and accordingly, the court below is unfounded prospective judgments should be struck. The court below’s speculative judgments are nothing short of character assassination, absent due process, and should be struck from the record. Point 5, the court below’s order and statement denied Petitioner due process. Point 6, per Bruen, because at this point, Bruen was in effect, the Government must demonstrate that issuing prospective judgments upon withdrawn applications is consistent with this nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation. Good luck even finding firearm permitting regulation about licensing at the foundations founding. And in Point 7, it is respectively requested that the court’s opinion reference Petitioner by his initials, because

Evan Nappen 17:35
and how long was your brief on?

Louis Nappen 17:38
Okay. My brief was 22 pages.

Evan Nappen 17:46 Twenty-two pages.

Louis Nappen 17:48
Oh, wait a minute. Wait, I’m sorry. Wait a minute, it’s a little longer. Twenty-seven pages. Excuse me.

Evan Nappen 17:54
Now, once you file your brief, the State in a carry permit does not have an official automatic response.

Louis Nappen 18:01
Oh, that’s good. Now this is an amazing thing. Now the state is actually, you’re correct. They really don’t have a function. New Jersey says that if they want to chime in, they can within two weeks. They can make an objection or not, after a person appeals a denial. They can chime in and be there and say why it shouldn’t be issued in the interest of the public or what have you. But, in this case, what’s weird is on appeal, the Appellate Division said I had to notify the state. I was trying to explain. I apologize about that. I tried to explain how the state didn’t have any function and did not appear because there was no hearing. This is really unopposed in that sense that there’s no opposition. I’m just saying the court did something that shouldn’t have done. But they said that the state, this is New Jersey, that the state, meaning the prosecutor’s office, represents the judge’s interest in this matter. They have to put forth their position regarding it as an opposition.

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Louis Nappen 18:04
Now, think about that. So, in other words, it’s basically an admission that the judge and the prosecutor are on the same side. So much for neutral judicial authority. Huhhh.

Louis Nappen 18:25
Right. So, now I know what I would do if I were the state in this case. I’d be like, the guy wants to withdraw. He just wants this statement of reasons off the record. Why do I want to spend time on this? The court should not be doing advisory opinions. There’s no case or controversy. I agree. No. Instead, Morris County Prosecutor’s Office, and I’m mentioning it because they do talk about it being out of Morris County. I’m going that far. Instead they write their own brief and say that Petitioner’s argument is moot since the decision of this court will have no practical effect on the proceeding. We just went over that this is going to stay in his file forever, being there for any police chief or anybody else, anytime he applies for a permit, to say that he should not be granted this with no means to, if he didn’t act now, he would never be able to get this off of his file. There’s no way to get this out of a file, once it’s in there as an order and a statement of reasons. And then two, Petitioner’s argument is not right, because petitioner has not shown any actual prejudice as a result of it. So, it’s like, I mean, okay. So, they write their brief and obviously he is prejudiced by this whole thing.

Evan Nappen 20:50
Which is the whole point of why it was done.

Louis Nappen 20:52
Right. Because what other reason is there to do all that? Other than to put it to besmirch his character and put this out there forever, that he’s . . .

Evan Nappen 21:04
Besmirch. Ah, you said the magic word. You win a million dollars. What was the . . .

Louis Nappen 21:12
Okay, well, wait a minute. Just to tell you now, I thought this was a quick thing. Then I had to reply to the Prosecutor’s Brief. I had to write a reply brief, which I’m entitled to be able to do. The issue of the trial court wrongfully filed advisory opinions is not moot. Appellant is plainly prejudiced by the court below’s filing of prospective judgments upon him. I write another ten page brief as to how and why he’s forever prejudiced by the court doing this. Now, a lot of people wouldn’t care. But I give KD serious credit here for saying I’m not going to just take this lying down.

Evan Nappen 21:50
He was smart to do that, too, because he realized the implications, and his persistence paid off, Lou. So, what was the outcome.

Louis Nappen 22:02
Yeah. So, on May 17, 2024, we got a decision from the Appellate Division, and it was a victory. I don’t think that that’s a surprise. And,

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Evan Nappen 22:19
Well, it is Jersey. So that’s always a surprise.

Louis Nappen 22:20
Oh, yeah, you’re right. You never know, you never know. They listed what I raised, and they do list my points, which I always get a good kick out of. And they talked about it. They were persuaded by the contentions raised in KD’s first point. They didn’t even go beyond Point One.

Evan Nappen 22:40
There’s no such thing as overkill. That’s okay.

Louis Nappen 22:43
Yes, right. Several others in there. And it only took one head, when

Louis Nappen 22:47
And they did accept my reasons for privacy, because the whole point is about that, using initials. So, they did that, too. We reverse and remand for entry of a revised order without a statement of reasons.” Then they said, we don’t need to look at the rest except for using the initials. But it was awesome in that sense.

Evan Nappen 23:08
I’m really pleased for our client, who now no longer has that hanging over him, ruining his reputation and something that could come up later that he’d have to go through and try to have a hearing after the fact and have oh, well, the judge already decided this. You can’t let that sit.

Evan Nappen 23:33
That’s right. Think about that. If you’re a police chief and you have that order in front of you, or even if it’s the next police chief who sees that order, remember police chiefs aren’t always there forever. They change. They come and go. Or the guy might move to another town. They’re going to say it’s already been decided. You’re not eligible.

Evan Nappen 23:57
Right. Then they also could have used it to bring a motion to revoke his other licenses, or it could escalate to . . .

Louis Nappen 24:08 Hey, I just had a case. . .

Evan Nappen 24:09
a gun forfeiture. All these things. So, it was nipped in the bud by your excellent appeal.

Evan Nappen 24:16
Yeah, five years later, it’s an emergency.

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Louis Nappen 24:16
I just had a case where after five years of an emergency protection order, they moved, now it was denied. But at the same time, they waited five years until they decided to try and take a person’s firearms because it’s an emergency and you should have been

Louis Nappen 24:34
Five years later. Correct. So, it can happen. And

Evan Nappen 24:41 well, that is really,

Louis Nappen 24:42
I told you no case like this ever that I’ve had ever, going into

Evan Nappen 24:46
A 17-page opinion that was completely wrong to even write.

Louis Nappen 24:54
I just I do. I do sit there and question. Did he have it prepared beforehand? Was he just so proud of it? Was it a clerk who he wanted to give some credit to? You spend some time writing something because it’s

Evan Nappen 25:07
and add on a Second Amendment zealot. I don’t know. We don’t know. No one knows what.

Louis Nappen 25:14
I don’t know why. But it just makes me wonder why? All I hear is the courts are understaffed. There’s . . .

Evan Nappen 25:21
We don’t even know the time.

Louis Nappen 25:22
There’s not enough judges. They’re all on recall. Yet, they have time to write . . .

Evan Nappen 25:27
Time for your writing a 17 page thing to go at our client on a matter that has been withdrawn. I’m glad to hear that Morris County has so much judicial time available to do these things. These unnecessary, unlawful by way of the Constitution, advisory opinions, without due process. How nice?

Louis Nappen 25:51
Yeah, right. Now there is a better separation of executive and judicial functioning, which is good. Look, I also want to say, how many briefs have you and I written that the matter got resolved, and we didn’t

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have to submit it. So, if that was the case, that’s just ridiculous. I’ve worked hours on things that turned out, it’s moot. I don’t have to submit it because something else came up. So, I just don’t know why?

Evan Nappen 26:18
Overcome by events. OBE. Overcome by events.

Louis Nappen 26:21
But it doesn’t mean you don’t prepare.

Evan Nappen 26:23
OBE (Overcome By Events) I hear you. Well, hey, you know, not only are we fighting for gun rights with one client at a time that we’re so happy to help. But our state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is there defending our rights in New Jersey. They’re the number one gun rights defender. They are in the courts, as we speak, in federal court challenging the assault firearm ban, which is the modern sporting rifle ban in Jersey. They’re also challenging the large capacity magazine ban, which is really the standard capacity magazine ban. They’re challenging the Carry Killer law in all of its sensitive places and other onerous requirements after their hissy fit after Bruen. Because now they have to issue permits, and their idea is to make them useless, even though they have to issue them. Our great Association is in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist, keeping an eye on those scoundrels as they try to further deteriorate our Second Amendment rights with various laws. You need to be a member of the State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is anjrpc.org. Make sure you join. They are an umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in New Jersey, but they also have individual memberships. By being a member, you become part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 27:59
I also want to say thank you to our good friends at WeShoot, which is great indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They are fantastic. What a great place. A matter of fact, Lou and I both got our CCARE certification and training from WeShoot, and it was great fun and easy. They offer the courses so you, too, can get what you need to get your carry. They have a full service pro shop, and they can get you equipped with your proper firearm, holster, and all the training that you need so that you can become and remain a law-abiding gun owner. To be able to protect yourself and your loved ones and have a good time at the range. They have so many great events. May is Member Appreciation Month. So, you want to get down there now. They are running all kinds of great sales and specials. They’re also offering a great sale on new memberships with what I believe is $100 off. So, you want to check out WeShoot. You can find them at weshootusa.com (weshootusa.com) Check out their website. They have beautiful photography. They pride themselves on their photography. I highly recommend going to WeShoot. They are right off the Parkway, easy access, located in Lakewood, New Jersey. So, if you’re in Monmouth County, Ocean County, or anywhere there in Central Jersey, you have a great resource right at your fingertips. Take advantage of it.

Evan Nappen 29:41
I’d also like to shamelessly promote my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a Question and Answer format. This is your

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guidebook to the treacherous waters of New Jersey gun law, and I wrote it for you. It’s labor of love. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition. I put hundreds and hundreds of hours into this book. When you get the book, make sure you scan the front cover, get right in on that QR code on the front cover, which sends you to our subscriber database where, for free, you get to become a free member. You’ll be able to access all the updates, the archived materials, and I send out email alerts for any changes in laws, changes in Attorney General opinions, all kinds of great things that you need to know so that your book will stay current. If you want to get a copy of the big orange book, New Jersey Gun Law, go to EvanNappen.com, EvanNappen.com. Click the big orange book, and you’ll have it within a matter of days. Protect yourself and know New Jersey gun laws before you become the next GOFU. You want to avoid that. So, I have some great letters from listeners, which I always enjoy. Lou, if you have anything to add to any of these, please feel free. I’m glad you’re staying on as we go through the show.

Louis Nappen 31:31
Thank you for not besmirching me.

Evan Nappen 31:34
Ah, yes. I will not besmirch you today at least.

Louis Nappen 31:38
I’m determined to bring that word back.

Evan Nappen 31:41
I think you should. It’s a great word. And it’s one that we need to hear more of. Okay, this one is from David, regarding gun serial number wrong on original purchase. Hi, Evan. Thank you for the great information. I’m a reader and listener. I hope you are well. Today I went to fill in for SP-182a to add a gun to my PTC. The gun was purchased in New Jersey, so it’s already registered on the New Jersey government list. I wanted to make sure not to make an error. So, I double checked the serial number against both the gun itself and my original permit to purchase. I discovered that they don’t match! On the original purchase, the seller, a dealer, not an individual, left out a zero – instead of and then he gives a serial number that had a zero in it. Okay, well this isn’t the actual serial number. So, he said ABC0123, and they wrote ABC123 on the permit. So now I’m a little concerned. If I register the gun on the SP-182a as ABC123, I’m perpetuating the error and not filling out the form correctly. But if I register the gun on the SP-182a as ABC0123, I’m effectively notifying the police that the original purchase permit was incorrect. This sounds like the classic paperwork error that lands people in the Gulag, and I don’t want to be the GOFU. If it matters, the original purchase was in 2010, so perhaps the statute of limitations has lapsed?

Evan Nappen 33:14
So, what we have there would be what a Scrivener’s error, arguably just a typographical error, on the permit. The permit to purchase is just that. It’s a permit to purchase, and it’s only valid for 90 days unless you get it extended for another 90 days. It doesn’t mean a damn thing. It allowed you to make the purchase. You made the purchase. You lawfully made your purchase. With that said, the screw up on that doesn’t matter, but you need to be truthful in what you submit now. So, you need to use the correct and proper serial number on your gun. And that’s all you have to do. Look you can even put

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guns on there that don’t have any Jersey paper. We’ve reviewed on the show many ways you can have guns in New Jersey that don’t have any permit to purchase behind it. Now I don’t recommend you do that, only because there’s no reason to put guns that aren’t on the state’s radar on the state’s radar. But if you want to do that, you’re welcome to do it. There is no issue here to worry about. Just put the truthful serial number on the form if that’s a gun that you want to carry. Lou, do you have any comments on that one?

Louis Nappen 34:30
Peripherally, just he says he does not want to be the GOFU. You need a term for people who are proactive in making sure they don’t become a GOFU. I don’t know if that’s PAFO, Pro Active or unGOFU? Or . . .

Evan Nappen 34:48
something that has been unbesmirched, unbesmirched . . .

Louis Nappen 34:52
People who take preventative measures to make sure they don’t get in trouble. That’s the unGOFU. Oh, yeah, right. Right like antebellum is before. Right?

Evan Nappen 35:06
Yeah, very good. So, good question from David. Now I have one from Jordan. Jordan says, good morning. In 2021, I moved to New Jersey from Pennsylvania. Oh, you have my condolences, pal, too bed. I brought with me a handgun I purchased in Pennsylvania when I was a Pennsylvania resident. Do I need any type of permit or ID card to take that same handgun to the range in Pennsylvania? Do I need to register it in New Jersey since I moved here before the enactment of S-1204. I have two lock boxes for ammo and the handgun. I would transport them in my trunk. I will be driving through New Jersey to get to the PA range and back. Thanks for your help.

Evan Nappen 35:45
Okay, since you moved prior to the new law, there’s no requirement for you to register your guns. It is for new residents after the law. You moved before the law. So, you do not have to register your handgun. Residents themselves have no obligation to register. Only people that have the sorry fortune of having to move to New Jersey after the law. They have to not only register their guns, but also they have to first get a Firearms Purchaser ID Card, and they have to do all that within 60 days. Good luck with that. The whole law is an absurdity anyway, but you’re fine. You don’t need to register it. You don’t have to register it.

Evan Nappen 36:20
As far as transporting to Pennsylvania, you would transport your gun cased and unloaded. If you’re going to have it locked, that’s even better. Since you’re going from your home directly to the range, that’s an exemption itself under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.f. of New Jersey gun laws. N.J.S. 2C:39-6.f. is going directly to the target range. It doesn’t have to be within the state. Once you are in Pennsylvania, make sure you obey all Pennsylvania laws, of course, as well. Plus, you arguably might have Title 18 926 A of the federal law for your interstate transportation covering you as well. Again, locked, separate ammo,

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unloaded, etc. You’re doing it right. You can transport to the range accordingly, and you do not have to register your gun. Is there anything you’d like to add there to Jordan?

Louis Nappen 37:10
Yes, actually. It reminds me of when, and Pennsylvania has since changed his slogan, I’m sad to say, because I used to like when I would cross the Walt Whitman or the Delaware or the Bristol Bridge any of those bridges that cross into Pennsylvania. When you went there, they used to have the big signs with the Pennsylvania slogan, America Starts Here. They meant Philadelphia 1776. But I still

Evan Nappen 37:40
I always had something even more because that was the time of Governor Florio.

Louis Nappen 37:45
And I always laugh because . . .

Evan Nappen 37:46
Governor Florio with all that horrible stuff. He was always going on about toilet paper, banning runny eggs, and gun control. So, when you cross into Pennsylvania,

Louis Nappen 37:55
I always laughed at that because I said right. When you leave New Jersey, that’s where America starts. America starts here. Now that you’ve entered Pennsylvania. Yeah, that’s what that reminded me of. I didn’t have anything to add. Other than that is my analysis of that, too. He has the gun and that’s the serial number.

Evan Nappen 38:14
I said, you’re good to go. Here’s a question that says, hey, Evan, please mark me down as anonymous if you read my message on your show. Okay, anonymous, you got it.

Louis Nappen 38:26
He’s written more books than I. It’s amazing how many books Anonymous has written.

Evan Nappen 38:31
Yeah, he’s prolific. Okay, I appreciate everything that you do in the Second Amendment community. Thanks. So, I’ve recently moved, and my court issued carry permit is nearing expiration, within the next six months. Is there a timeframe that I have to change my address? Like the 30 days for my Firearms ID Card? Or should I just renew my PTC within the new jurisdiction? Also, since I’ve moved, it has proven difficult to find my original, physical, FID and PTC, I’ve made copies, do I need the physical FID to change the address, as it is digital now? I do not want to put it down as lost. Also, I know you need four references to renew your PTC now, and family is not allowed to be listed as references. Are cousins considered family in the state of New Jersey? Again, I appreciate your help on this matter and taking the time to answer my questions. Thank you.

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Evan Nappen 39:34
All right, Lou, why don’t you go at these. Go right ahead.

Louis Nappen 39:37
Oh, great. Okay. It’s like a law school thing. Right? Exactly. Never sit in the front row. No, actually well, there is one or two comments, but then you fill in the rest.

Evan Nappen 39:49
Here’s the deal. As your court-issued carry permit is nearing expiration, just apply to renew your PTC. It is going to ask for your SBI number, which is on your Firearms ID card. You can utilize that. You can just renew your PTC in your new jurisdiction. Now, since you’re in a new jurisdiction, you need to change your address on your FID card, you are going to submit to do that. It shouldn’t matter about having the original physical card. But you need a change of address, anyway, and the change of address and the lost card are actually the same form. I don’t know if you can actually mark both boxes anyway. But you plainly have the change of address issue. If it lets you mark both boxes, it’s no big deal. Mark both boxes, saying you lost it and change of ID. Who cares? It’s the same licensing application process, and it’s the same criteria under N.J.S. 2C:58-3 determination. All that is going to be the same. So, that’s not an issue.

Evan Nappen 41:02
As far as the four references go, I’d avoid anything touching on family, whether it’s cousins or in-laws. There’s no sense in having reference issues when you just need four folks that plainly aren’t family. But I would give you a heads up, and it’s a GOFU that we’ve talked about in the past. Make sure that you clear your references in advance. Make sure they’re on board to approve you and that they are going to approve you. They don’t mind that you’re putting them on there as references, that they’re pro gun, pro you having a gun, and most importantly, that as soon as they get the email from the state, they answer those few questions and send it back right away so that your gun application doesn’t get stalled for lack of reference response.

Louis Nappen 41:50
I do have some things to add, two or three things. First off, if you have to get your permit anyway for a handgun purchase. I mean a Firearms Purchaser ID Card, you might as well check off and make it an excuse to go get yourself another handgun. Also, if you just apply for a handgun, they automatically also issue you the Firearms ID Card. So, it doesn’t even need to look like you applied for a new one because when you apply for your handgun, that comes with it. I’m pretty sure nowadays in the electronic version for the handgun purchase permit. So, that’s one.

Evan Nappen 42:21
Yeah, it’s always good to get some more guns, which is always important, always buying when you can.

Louis Nappen 42:27
The second thing is references. It’s interesting, they changed the rule on Firearm Purchaser ID Card and Permits to Purchase a Handgun that you may use relatives for those, but for carry permits, you

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may not use relatives. I don’t know if they delineated. They did delineate like in certain areas with the certificates of eligibility, who you may transfer to, for that. And that is immediate family – fathers, sons, sisters, brothers, like that. But I don’t know if there’s an actual list. I would as you just said, why even go there? Just find another person to use, not your cousin. Then to reiterate what you said, I’ve had more than my share of cases, our firm has had more than our share of cases, where people poorly chose, just like out of Indiana Jones, you chose poorly. Your references. For the most part, I do not recommend using your boss. We’ve had issues because of that. You know what’s going to happen. You’re going to get in a fight with your boss, or he’s going to use it over your head right before the email comes.

Evan Nappen 43:33
Yeah, so that’s why you didn’t use me as a reference, huhh?

Louis Nappen 43:37
Well, I’m not allowed to use a family member. Then also, I had somebody who used their landlord. They said, can I put you down for a reference? And she said, yes. When she gets it, the landlord says, I don’t think anyone should have a gun. He didn’t inform her or do the proper questioning. So, the police department investigator gets, she doesn’t want anyone. She’s being nice. She doesn’t want him to have a gun. She’s just saying no one should have a gun. Most landlords, I would think are probably like I don’t want guns in my lands that I’m renting out or anything. Just don’t use your landlord unless you really know for a fact that it’s like your hunting buddy. Something like that. That’s a different scenario. Also, when it comes to using bosses, I would think twice if you worked in a school system, not the most, that you’re pursuing it, or the classic, you work at the post office. There’s that term “going postal” that they probably don’t want their employees necessarily being particularly pro-gun. I just wouldn’t. I just have a guy . . .

Evan Nappen 44:37
I remember we had a case with a postal worker where he had, I think it was 400 guns seized. Not only were we able to win his case, but he never lost his job, which was really great considering how ridiculous the post office can be on that type of thing.

Louis Nappen 44:58
Yeah, choose progun references. If they have a Firearms ID Card, that’s the best reference because you don’t want references who have criminal backgrounds. They may check them to see if they’re good people. So, . . .

Evan Nappen 45:08
Also, that could create them. That’s true. So, here is the last question, and then we’re going to do the GOFU of the week. This is from David who says, Hi, Evan. Assuming I bought my handguns in New Jersey, which means they’re already on record in the police database, is there any downside to listing every one of them as possible carries on my PTC? I could understand avoiding registering a gun by not adding an untracked firearm, but if my handguns already exist in police records, what’s the downside to including them all?

Page – 17 – of 21

Evan Nappen 45:18
In my opinion, there’s no downside to including them all. That way you can carry any gun you wish to carry. They’re all listed accordingly. I don’t see any problem with that. Do you, Lou?

Louis Nappen 46:00
Of listing any of your handguns? Well, I would

Evan Nappen 46:03
Any handgun that he already has on record because

Louis Nappen 46:08
Again, that’s the key. He already has them on record. If I inherited firearms I probably wouldn’t. Why would I want them to know about them?

Evan Nappen 46:15
We’re talking about having papered guns, putting every papered handgun on the list?

Louis Nappen 46:20
Sure can. sure, get one I not do

Evan Nappen 46:22
You might also have an advantage if you want to transport it to the range or you want to carry it there. If it’s listed on your license anyway as a gun you could carry, it can only enhance your position. So, there’s probably even some benefits to doing that arguably given whatever circumstances might come up.

Louis Nappen 46:43
I don’t see a downside. It might be nice to have a listing of all the guns, so you have it for yourself even. You know, here’s all my guns that I know are registered.

Evan Nappen 46:52
Yes. So, here is our GOFU of the week, which is of course the Gun Owner Fuck Up. The GOFU is really important because these are expensive lessons that others have learned that you get to learn on the cheap by listening for free to Gun Lawyer. So, this week’s GOFU, I call the domestic violence backfire. What happens is individuals end up having some type of spat or problem with their spouse or significant other or household member etc. New Jersey makes it extremely easy, frankly, to file a domestic violence restraining order. If you need such protection, I don’t want to discourage you from getting such protection. But you need to realize that if you’re going to pull that trigger and file against your spouse, significant other that you’re residing with, or household member, etc. and any of the folks that meet the definition of “victim” in this case, you’re the victim, but they could meet that definition. Often what occurs is two things. You get a possibility of a counter against you, and guns that belong to everybody in the household get seized. Then we have to fight to get your guns back. We’ve seen it where even the plaintiff, even when there isn’t a counter, gets their guns seized. Lou, why don’t you tell the listeners about that type of situation?

Page – 18 – of 21

Louis Nappen 48:34
Oh, sure. Yeah, I don’t know whether you want to call it bad recoil or a breach. Right? Okay, so you’ve applied for a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order), and it comes back at you. I’ve had more than my share of these cases where the very person, and often it’s interesting because in this scenario, it tends to be the women, where I’ve seen it more often. They are the ones who are seeking the restraining orders, percentage wise, more often than the men. They seek a restraining order, but they themselves are also firearm owners. So, they get a restraining order, and the police come and seize all the firearms in the residence.

Louis Nappen 49:19 Even the victim.

Louis Nappen 49:20 Even the victim.

Evan Nappen 49:21
When the victim is a legitimate victim of domestic violence who’s . . .

Evan Nappen 49:27
That very person who they fought, now instead of having a gun, you’ve got a piece of paper only. How nice.

Louis Nappen 49:27
Now that’s really nothing . . .

Louis Nappen 49:35
That’s right. She is now disarmed to protect herself when she was the one who called and needs the protection. So, as you just said, all you get is a target. You can hold up a piece of paper for . . .

Evan Nappen 49:49 Yeah, it’s really insane.

Louis Nappen 49:50
It’s insane. Also, I’d like to put out there sometimes it’s not the victim as much as the father who also lives in the household of that victim. They reside together in the parents’ house, the third party. An innocent third party. The woman had none. I’m generalizing here. They come and they take any guns in the house. So, meanwhile, there’s a third party who’s like, I’m not involved with their dispute. But they take all the firearms, typically his, and there are cases where now if they come in, they took, and there’s a famous case, unfortunately, I should say infamous. They came in and took the relative’s firearms and the relative had a firearm that was, under New Jersey law, considered an assault firearm. Because he had firearms seized pursuant to domestic violence, even though he was not one of the named parties, that were not returned to him, he’s now forever barred. There was no intent of the person who called to ever get their father in trouble on . . .

Page – 19 – of 21

Evan Nappen 50:59
the possession. The reason they are eternally barred is that New Jersey has a law that says anybody, you don’t have to be the plaintiff, you don’t have to be the defendant, you can be the victim, you can be a plaintiff, it could be a third party, an innocent third party, anybody who’s had guns seized pursuant to domestic violence becomes prohibited from having a license and prohibited from gun possession. That’s why, if your guns get seized, you have to fight to get them returned, every time. Even if it’s just some piece of junk top breaker shotgun that you couldn’t get 20 bucks for at a gun buyback or some broken BB gun. If you don’t get your guns returned, you become a prohibited person – the equivalent of a convicted felon.

Louis Nappen 51:45
I’d like to clarify that. It’s domestic violence gun seizures. So many people think that it’s if I had a firearm that was seized and not returned. No, it’s domestic. If it was seized pursuant to domestic violence. It was from an allegation of domestic violence.

Louis Nappen 51:45
Not TERPOs, FERPOs or any other things. For DV gun seizures, that is the law.

Louis Nappen 52:02
Ironically, even criminal if you possess because it’s contraband.

Evan Nappen 52:05
Something else that doesn’t constitute a gory right a DV.

Louis Nappen 52:09
This is the type of matter, and I’m raising this, that I hope we get the case that takes it up that under the Bruen standard, should not be upheld if you once had a firearm not returned to you, your rights were attached to that firearm forever. Just imagine if you once committed libel and you forever can’t go to church, assemble, publish again. You lose all your first amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 52:34 I mean, right, yeah,

Louis Nappen 52:35
Because you once had something that was not returned to you or was found you didn’t do it right. Yeah, that.

Evan Nappen 52:42
Lou, that is why gun laws in New Jersey do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Thanks for being on the show man. You’re well. Keep up the fight.

Page – 20 – of 21

Speaker 3 52:59
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Page – 21 – of 21

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E187_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 186-It’s Not Just Pineapples and Kona in Hawaii AnymoreAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 186Page – 1 – of 7

Gun Lawyer — Episode 186 Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

knife, law, new jersey, exemptions, id card, firearms, possession, great, hawaii, rights, evan, gun,

police, gun owner, second amendment, transport, mags, switchblade, repeal, ban

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:18

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I have some exciting news in the ever evolving

Second Amendment challenges that we keep seeing. And, you know, it’s really wonderful. Even though

there’s so many lousy laws there and the antis keep having their hissy fits and passing new laws, the

power of Bruen continues on. As I’ve said before, the Second Amendment is not the right to keep and

bear guns. It is the right to keep and bear arms, and arms include any type of weapon for self-defense,

etc. So, I want to see legalization and removal of any law that restricts our rights to personal defense,

firearms or any other weapon. I’m happy to let you know that the State of Hawaii. Yes, I mean, you

think of Hawaii as very liberal, very anti-Second Amendment, and they are. They absolutely are. But

what Hawaii did, other than selling us pineapples and Kona coffee, I love Kona coffee. It is my favorite.

But anyway, what Hawaii did was legalize by actually repealing the law, legalized butterfly knives,

switchblade knives, and gravity knives, as well as brass knuckles, including trench knives, and

Karambits, and swords and spears. That’s right. They repealed. The State of Hawaii repealed all those

laws for sale, manufacture, transfer, possession and transportation of all these other weapons.

(https://kniferights.org/legislative-update/hawaii-legalizes-butterfly-switchblade-gravity-knives/)

Evan Nappen 02:46

Now that is wonderful, absolutely wonderful. I’m so happy for the folks in Hawaii who no longer will be

turned into criminals for simple possession of these items, many of which are very collectible, very

desirable, and very much part of a history of weapons development and culture. Why repeal it now?

Why would Hawaii do such a thing? Did they suddenly have an epiphany about the Second

Amendment and malum prohibitum laws that ban weapons? No, not at all. Not at all. That would be

giving them way too much credit. What happened was that Hawaii got put between a rock and a hard

place. I guess they kind of got hit with a tsunami, you might say, because of a case that was brought, a

court case brought in a challenge to these very laws. That case is Teter versus Lopez.

(https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2023/08/07/20-15948.pdf) The court there, the Ninth

Circuit Court of Appeals, found that their ban on butterfly knives, you know, balisongs or butterfly

knives, was a violation of the Second Amendment. Because of that, they pushed forward to see if they

could get an en bank, the full panel, to review the case. They are taking a big risk because they feel

that if the loss is confirmed, it’s going to put in jeopardy all their other laws, you know, regarding

firearms and other things. So, what they did was an attempt to moot out, to moot, the case. But to moot

the case, it meant having to legalize all these weapons.Page – 2 – of 7

Evan Nappen 05:08

Now the case is still proceeding because the attorneys involved are still claiming the carry portion, you

know, the ability to carry, should still be alive from this and maybe continue it. But the court may just

throw it out as moot now that the law itself has been tossed. I don’t know what the outcome will be. But

regardless, there will still be other days for other challenges, and it is a tremendous win. It’s a

tremendous win, because getting rid of those stupid laws is in the plus column for freedom, liberty, and

the Second Amendment. So, this is really great. It shows you the power of Bruen, not only in the courts

themselves, but to actually force otherwise anti-Second Amendment legislators to have to repeal laws

in order to keep the challengers out of the courts. That’s great. That’s fantastic. It’s absolutely fantastic.

Evan Nappen 06:21

Knife Rights did play a role here. Knife Rights is the organization in America that vigorously defends our

knife rights. You might loosely consider them the NRA of knives, but they’re actually more effective than

the NRA, actually, interestingly. We’ll get more into that in a moment. But Knife Rights put in an Amicus

Brief in the court challenge and all. Congratulations are due to the attorneys in the case, which are Alan

Beck and Stephen Stamboulieh. They were the attorneys that brought the case on Teter, and this really

forced them into it. Teter versus Lopez was a huge Second Amendment win for all knife owners and

Second Amendment supporters. Also, credit is due to the San Diego County Gun Owners Political

Action Committee and the Firearms Policy Coalition, who also joined in the Amicus. Doug Ritter (Knife

Rights Chairman) said, “this is a huge victory for knife owners and knifemakers in Hawaii. Knife Rights

is proud to have played a role with our Amicus Brief in the Teter versus Lopez appeal. . .” Ritter further

said, while Knife Rights welcomes this new law loosening the restrictions on knife possession, it doesn’t

finish the job in Hawaii. We still have work to do and look forward to working with our friends to continue

the fight until there are no restrictions on carry in Hawaii.

Evan Nappen 08:02

Now, this is really great stuff. It’s something where I think we’re going to see down the road, a challenge

to New Jersey’s prohibitions on switchblades, daggers, dirks, stilettos, gravity knives, knuckles, etc. as

well. This is a great indication of the power of Bruen and how those things can be effective as a win.

Additionally, you know, Knife Rights has really been at the forefront of the knife liberty movement. Doug

is a friend of mine, and I’m their counsel as well. I’m really proud of the work Knife Rights has done, and

the knife liberty movement actually started with Knife Rights. We were able, originally in 2010, for the

first time in modern times, to get New Hampshire to do a full repeal of New Hampshire’s ban on

switchblades, daggers, Dirks, stilettos. I’ve talked about that on other shows and that led to the

groundwork.

Evan Nappen 09:13

From 2010 to now, Knife Rights has resulted in 49 bills repealing knife bans in 31 states and 190 cities

and towns. That’s really amazing work. Those states include, by the way, Alabama, Alaska, Arizona,

Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan,

Missouri, Montana, Nebraska. Nevada, New Hampshire, New York, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania.

Did you know they legalized switchblades now in Pennsylvania? Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia,Page – 3 – of 7

Washington, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. The reason Hawaii is now added to the list is the past

preemption, as well. So, these are things that are just amazing.

Evan Nappen 10:28

Knife Rights has actually stopped 10 Anti-knife bills, including an anti-knife bill out of New Jersey, by

the way. And out of Florida, Maryland, New York, Nevada, Texas, and Washington. So, those are the

anti-knife bills that were stopped and all these pro-knife bills that have been passed. Now you can see

the Bruen court case is having tremendous impact. Knife Rights has now brought a federal challenge to

The Federal Switchblade Act, the FSA, as we’ve talked about before. So, things are really, really

looking up in terms of the expansion of the enforcement of our Second Amendment rights concerning

arms. All this goes to helping the fight across the board for guns as well.

Evan Nappen 11:31

This is the entire picture, and it’s so exciting to see positive results. How often do we get to say in

America that we gained freedom? I mean, it’s almost sad for me to say that. But the truth of it is, it is not

common for us to gain freedom. Yet here we are gaining freedom. It’s sad that we have to fight to gain

back our freedom, but it is happy that we are succeeding in doing so. Look, we lost our rights

incrementally across the board on so many of these things, and now we’re gaining them back

incrementally and at a record pace in the big picture. So, as much as these things get us upset about

various laws and infringements, at least, we can take heart in knowing that the times are a changing

and that we are succeeding. We’ve been given the tools by the trifecta of Heller, McDonald and Bruen

in the United States Supreme Court to continue our march, gaining freedom and liberty in the

expansion of our Second Amendment rights. It helps us not just in court case wins, in the cases that

win in the courts, but also in effecting legislative change, and that’s what this stands for. That’s good

stuff, folks. Really good stuff.

Evan Nappen 13:33

And you know, our friends at WeShoot, which is one of my favorite ranges in New Jersey, understand

this. They’re an indoor pistol range, and they are in Lakewood, New Jersey. Easy access, right off the

Parkway. They are just a fantastic place. If you’ve never been to WeShoot, you need to go there. If you

have been there, then you know what I’m talking about. WeShoot will treat you like family. Mention my

name, and they’ll treat you like royalty. They are the best! They have everything you need, and it’s kind

of exciting because they have this really great gun now, the Rost Martin. Have you ever seen the Rost

Martin the RM1C? This gun is really cool. I mean, they have a lot of great stuff there, and they can

totally outfit you. But this Rost Martin is kind of amazing. It is somewhat similar to a Glock 19, but it

actually shoots better. It has lots of whistles and bells, great features. It’s MOS, ready for your optic,

and all good to go. Do you realize that this gun has an MSRP of only $465?

Evan Nappen 14:53

The folks at WeShoot are now running their special Member Appreciation Month deals for May. So, you

can cash in on that if you’re a member. Or if you’re not a member and you want to join, they’re offering

$100 off memberships as an exclusive for new members. This is a golden opportunity to become part

of the WeShoot family. You’ll see exactly what I’m talking about. To have a resource like WeShoot is so

important, especially in Central Jersey, where things are so crowded, and there really aren’t that manyPage – 4 – of 7

places to shoot. And here you have this great range there that you can take advantage of. So, go see

my friends at WeShoot. Check out weshootusa.com They have a magnificent website, beautiful

photography. You’ll be glad you did. Mention my name and watch what happens. It’s like magic. It’s a

great place – WeShoot in Lakewood, New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 16:05

I also want to mention our good friends at the state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle &

Pistol Clubs. They are the premier gun rights defender in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners needs

to belong to the state Association. They are the umbrella organization of gun clubs, but they also have

individual memberships. When you join, you increase our power. Our power is in numbers, and our

power is an organization and membership. This group really stands out. They have a full time paid

lobbyist in Trenton, and they are the folks litigating as we speak in federal court on the ban on modern

sporting rifles, so-called Assault Firearms, and the ban on standard capacity magazines, so-called large

capacity magazines. They’re also battling Murphy’s Carry Killer law, which was their big hissy fit after

Bruen, and we’re taking down that law in the courts. Helping us expand our ability to use our shall issue

carry throughout the state. This is a group you want to be part of. You’ll get their emails and alerts and

be able to instantly take action. You’ll also get their great newsletter, best gun newsletter about New

Jersey out there, and you’ll know that you’re doing your part. So go to anjrpc.org and join today. Go

there and join ANJRPC. Be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 17:50

Here is where I shamelessly promote my book, New Jersey Gun Law, which is the Bible of New Jersey

gun law. That’s it man. It is the one and only authoritative Nappen Orange Book on New Jersey gun

law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. Explained easily for you to

understand it. It is used by the New Jersey State Police Firearms Units, by police, and used by judges

and lawyers. But most importantly, it’s used by gun owners throughout the state so they can stay safe

in New Jersey and hopefully not become a victim of New Jersey’s gun laws. Nor commit any GOFUs,

which is easy enough to do in New Jersey. This book will help protect you. When you get your book,

scan the front cover, and make sure you subscribe for free to my subscriber base. You will get alerts as

to any updates, and you’ll have full access to all the archives of any past updates and important info so

that your book stays current. So, when you get the book, do that, and stay current. You’ll have at your

fingertips the ability to remain a law-abiding gun owner in the very treacherous state of New Jersey.

You can buy my book on my website at EvanNappen.com. Just go to EvanNappen.com, and you’ll see

the big orange book. Click on it, and in a matter of days, you’ll have your very own copy.

Evan Nappen 19:39

Now I have received some great letters. The old Ask Evan letters, and I love receiving letters from my

listeners. You guys are great, and I appreciate the questions. So, here is a question from Steven.

Steven says regarding firearms ID card. Evan, I just had my permit to carry and firearms ID card printed

on plastic cards to fit in my wallet by NJ Liberty cards. I noticed that my old Firearms ID card from 1981

says “permit to purchase and transport rifles and shotguns”. My new Firearms ID card says,

“permission to purchase rifles and shotguns pursuant to N.J.S. 2C:58-3”. They removed “transport”

from the FID cards. Does that change being able to have a rifle or shotgun in your car? Are thesePage – 5 – of 7

shrunk down to wallet size plastic cards legal for PTC and Firearms ID cards? Regular follower of

yours, and I have the old edition and the anniversary edition of your gun law book. Regards, Steven.

Evan Nappen 20:54

Well, thanks, Steve. We have a couple of questions kind of interspersed in that but let me answer both.

So, first of all, what’s the deal with these plastic cards? Well, you know what, I don’t see any problem

with it, and I’ll tell you why. These things are sent to you electronically, and you have to print them on

some medium of some sort. It doesn’t require to be on paper. Why? It’s better on plastic, frankly. It lasts

longer. It doesn’t dissolve away. I think it’s a great idea. And why wouldn’t it be? I mean, they’re done

online. They’re sent to you online. They’re provided in that way. So, why not? If you want to have it on

plastic, or paper, or some other material that’s printable, as long as it’s legible, and there is a permit,

which is exactly what it is, officially printed permit that was electronically sent to you, I don’t see a

problem with that.

Evan Nappen 21:59

Now on the other question about the change of the language, yeah, they modified the language, but it

is not a change in the law. Because the law on Firearms Purchaser ID cards, which is under N.J.S.

2C:39-5.c., talks about rifles and shotguns. What it says is that no person shall possess any rifle or

shotgun unless first having obtained a New Jersey Firearms Purchaser Identification Card. So, that’s

the normal possession charge that you would face on the possession of a long arm rifle or shotgun. But

if you have a Firearms Identification Card, you’re exempted on the face of the statute for that

possession. Then there’s another provision that says you cannot have your gun loaded unless

otherwise permitted by law. So, the other permissions by law that allow for loaded firearms being long

arms are found in the exemptions, which are narrow, including N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e., which is possession

in your home or place of business, etc. You can read N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e. about that exemption. Or under

f., which is going hunting or to the target range. Those exemptions would allow for loaded and/or

transport unloaded, as long as you’re transporting pursuant to subsection g., which we’ve discussed

before. This requires the gun to be unloaded and essentially cased or locked in the trunk, or a closed

and fastened case, or in a gun box, etc. So, those are the exemptions. The Firearms (Purchaser) ID

card itself exempts your possession for the unloaded rifle or shotgun. Now when we talk about

transport, if you’re stopped with a gun in your car, the charge is going to be unlawful possession. Your

Firearms ID card covers you for that possession while you’re in the mode of transport. It’s not about a

separate transport prohibition. Because if you don’t have a Firearms ID Card, then you have to be

transporting pursuant to the exemptions while going to the exempted places. But what is that exempting

you from? N.J.S. 2C:39-5c., which is the possession law that we just said has in that law itself the

Firearms ID card, right on the face of it, as an exemption. In other words, if you’re possessing a rifle or

shotgun, unloaded, and you have a Firearms ID Card, you don’t even have to go to the exemptions for

any type of coverage. Because you’re not exemption dependent now. You have the Firearms ID card

that the statute requires. But if you don’t have it, then you have to rely on exemptions. Now, in New

Jersey, you should do both. Stay within the exemptions and have a Firearms ID card. Because it’s like

wearing a belt and suspenders here, you know. You have got to be give yourself every advantage and

protection, whether it’s by exemption or license. This is how our law currently functions, but I believe

eventually, because of how it functions, and it’s so stupid, frankly, it’s going to be knocked out as

unconstitutional. Challenges are brewing as we speak. But for now, you don’t want to have a problem.Page – 6 – of 7

You want to be legal. A Firearms ID card is still a powerful tool to remain legal. Try to stay within the

exemptions as well as have the Firearms ID card. Make sure your gun is unloaded and cased properly

for transport, etc. so that you can seek the shelter of both the license and the exemption. All right.

Thanks, Steve, for some really good questions.

Evan Nappen 26:22

Now I have a letter from Richard. Richard says Evan, regarding your podcast on Glock 43X Mags. I

emailed Glock customer service and within one day I received an email asking me how many mags do I

have and what is my home address. They are not requesting the mags be returned. The new AHA

arrived within a week in a plain vanilla envelope without any retail packaging. No questions asked. I

received five mags. Well, that’s very good that you did not have to unlawfully transport your mags, or

unlawfully dispose of your mags or unlawfully do anything else.

Evan Nappen 27:18

The problem, though, of course, is you did make a written email admission supposedly to possessing

illegal mags. But other than that, it’s nice that Glock did send you mags without any questions asked or

having to subject yourself to further risk. But it still doesn’t address the problem of the current

possession of your mags. For that the only legal thing you can do is a voluntary surrender under N.J.S.

2C:39-12, where you can give notice to the police of the date and time of surrender, and you can get rid

of the mags that are problematic. That’s the only legal way to handle it. So, as an attorney, I have to

advise you of that. I’m glad to hear that Glock is making good on it, supposedly, but it would be really

nice if they put out something official. Then we might be able to get the arrangements made for legal

transport of bad mags to dealers so that good mags could be provided. We could cut down on all the

risky stuff involved with this. But thanks, Richard, for reporting back on your experience.

Evan Nappen 28:46

Now I have a letter from a Julio, and Julio says regarding the Firearm ID card return if moving out of

New Jersey. Hi, Evan, if moving to another state like North Carolina, do I have to turn in my Firearms ID

card? Well, the answer Julio is you have to do something. One of your options is to voluntarily

surrender your Firearms ID card. However, your other option is you can apply for a change of address

to your new address in North Carolina. Now you have to do one or the other within 30 days of changing

your address. So, you either can send back your card and voluntarily surrender it within the 30 days

because you have moved and you don’t plan to ever come back to New Jersey, which I can

understand. Or you can get a change of address on your current FID, which is actually a good thing to

do, and here’s why. Your FID card has on it your SBI number. Now if you do a change of address that

SBI number will remain, and then you can get a New Jersey Permit to Carry as well, utilizing that SBI

number. You won’t even have to get fingerprinted because your SBI number exists. You can apply right

online and get a New Jersey Permit to Carry as a non-resident because you have a New Jersey FID

non-resident card with your SBI number. So, if you wish to keep that FID card, then do the change of

address which also opens the door for you to get your Jersey carry. It’s the same carry that residents

have. You’ll be able to carry under the law in Jersey, just like a resident could. These are things you

need to consider in your own personal circumstances as to whether you want to give New Jersey the

full kiss off, or whether you might still want to come back and visit family, visit friends, or have a reasonPage – 7 – of 7

to be here. Therefore, do the change of address route. But either way, Julio, thanks for the great

question.

Evan Nappen 31:21

Now comes the most popular segment of the show. It’s the GOFU time That’s right, the Gun Owner

Fuck Up. The greatest thing about GOFUs is that it is a very expensive lesson that somebody else has

learned that you get to learn for free, because you listen to the show. It’s based on actual cases and

real things that happened. So, this week’s GOFU is about an individual who went to the police

regarding a prior job situation and spoke to them about it. But they ended up mentioning, just ended up

talking and mentioning that he had or she, I won’t even tell you the sex, could be a man or woman,

spoke to the officer that they were engaged with there and mentioned that they had gotten therapy

because they had gained weight. So, this is weight loss therapy, in effect. Because it was therapy, the

officer said, hey, when you applied for your gun permits, and it said, have you ever been treated or

observed by any doctor, psychiatrists for any mental or physical condition, you wrote no. You didn’t

mention your weight gain therapy. Oh, boy. Now the escalation comes in. The dangers of revocation,

confiscation, possibly even criminal charges for falsification, all because of mentioning therapy for

weight gain.

Evan Nappen 33:23

Listen, folks, the GOFU is don’t talk to the police. Okay? I don’t know how I can make it any clearer.

When you talk to the police, you’re taking a risk. Something that you may not ever think is in any way a

problem, suddenly blows up to be a problem. You think, oh, I’m fine. I was wronged. I’m in the right, and

I’ve been wronged. I’m the victim of some offense or crime or something like that, and you go to the

police. You figure the police are your friend, and they’re there to help you. They would be reasonable.

And guess what happens? This stuff happens. And look, I’m not anti-police. I’m not saying this because

of being anti-police. We need our police. We wouldn’t have a civilized society without police. I treasure

our police. Honestly, I do. I mean it. They’re good people, and we need to support them. It’s not about

that. They have a job to do, and they’re trained to do it. The policies and the procedures are there. If

you say these things, you force them into a position.

Evan Nappen 34:49

Now this seems a bit absurd that it’s over this. But, if they don’t take the steps and then something else

comes out, guess who gets in trouble? They do. So, you’ve now put yourself in a bad position, and you

put them in a bad position because you didn’t know to shut up and not involve police in your life if you

can avoid it. Okay, so that’s the GOFU, folks. Keep it in mind. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that

gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 35:33

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E186_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 185-Murphy’s Racist Gun Laws EXPOSED!Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 185SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, blacks, law, guns, second amendment rights, denials, gun laws, glock, firearms, gun, great,

attorney general’s office, chiefs, gun rights, find, john, rights, deals, folks, nra

SPEAKERS

John Petrolino, Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, I’m very happy today because we have a very

special guest on the show. That person is a good friend of mine and really one of my favorite gun

writers. You know, we talk about gun rights. Then there are folks who write about gun rights. So, there

are gun writers on gun rights. John Petrolino is an excellent gun writer. (https://johnpetrolino.com) I

read all his stuff, and I strongly suggest that you do the same. John is on the show today because we

wanted to discuss one of his latest articles that I think is extremely important. So, John, welcome to

Gun Lawyer.

John Petrolino 01:15

Hello Evan. Thank you for having me. Hello, listeners to Gun Lawyer. Hello, Americans and patriots all.

How’s everyone doing?

Evan Nappen 01:23

Well, I’ll tell you, man, it is never ending, as you know, in our fight for Second Amendment rights. You

really chronicle and identify key issues, and you really get it when it comes to understanding what we’re

dealing with. So, I want to encourage all my listeners to read anytime they see that byline of John

Petrolino. Now, this most recent article, I think, is very important. (https://bearingarms.com/john-

petrolino/2024/05/09/nj-attorney-general-platkin-responds-to-racial-bias-allegations-on-permits-to-carry-

n1224835) It is something that if it was in the other side of the political arena, it would be headlining

everywhere. But because of the media bias and what we are constantly battling for, it doesn’t get the

publicity and the attention that it needs. But that’s one of the roles of Gun Lawyer, of this show. It’s what

you do, and I do. We put out the truth. So, why don’t you tell us about your recent findings? When you

examined the New Jersey Attorney General’s release of the carry permit data, tell me what you

discovered?

John Petrolino 02:55

Well, the first thing that happened was, I mean, this was super exciting. I think that’s when I called you.

You and I got on the phone almost immediately about this. You and I talked about it quite extensively.

This is data that both of us were interested in finding. The data that we were looking for was the rate of

denials based on race. When I went to the dashboard, like everyone else, trying to find that data, it

wasn’t there. I’m going to say the data wasn’t there, because we’re not completely computer illiterates,Page – 2 – of 9

but maybe we all made mistakes, every single one of us that was looking for this data. So, I put in an

OPRA (Open Public Records Act) with the Attorney General’s office, and they ended up updating the

dashboard. According to, you know, looking at everything now here afterwards, they updated their

dashboard on April 12, 2024. I think it was April 24, 2024, when they closed out my OPRA, which they

didn’t complete my OPRA right away. They were like we need more time. So, it took them about five,

six weeks.

Evan Nappen 04:10

So, what is an OPRA? What did you do? Tell us?

John Petrolino 04:17

Okay, so an OPRA is New Jersey’s form of a FOIA, which is Freedom Of Information Act, a direct

request. An OPRA is an Open Public Records Act request. I’m basically saying to the Attorney General,

listen, I want more information that should be available to the public. Sometimes, some agencies and

some information they’re forthcoming with and some agencies not so much. So, the Attorney General’s

Office is usually pretty good at getting the data that is available, versus like New York or New Jersey

State Police. They’re pretty awful. I’m fighting with that right now.

Evan Nappen 04:58

So, you found that OPRA is a really important tool, haven’t you?

John Petrolino 05:02

Oh, it is very important. ORRA is also, interestingly enough, OPRA in New Jersey, is under attack from

one Assemblyman Joe Danielson. Go figure.

Evan Nappen 05:16

Oh, isn’t he the fellow that sponsored the Carry Killer bill? You know, the law to restrict our gun rights?

John Petrolino 05:26

He’s the guy that said that. Yes, this law was intended to only affect the law abiding. Yeah, that is the

guy.

Evan Nappen 05:34

Yeah. So, here’s a guy who’s not only against Second Amendment rights, but also, in effect First

Amendment rights, too. Trying to keep the Government acting in secret as they do their operations.

John Petrolino 05:52

Yeah, exactly. So, the irony is shocking. So, what I ended up doing is getting the information from them.

They said, oh, this data’s in the dashboard. I’m like, oh, silly me. So, I jumped on there, and I started

going down to look at the numbers that we were both interested in. I think we both wanted to find this

out, and we did, you know, go forward. I found some interesting numbers. When you start cranking

them through the sausage machine, there is two times the number of denials for Permits to Carry in the

black population versus white. And, you know, I’m going to stop people right there. Because a lot of

people say, well, you know, the blacks have more felonies, and they, you know. The comments onlinePage – 3 – of 9

are priceless. It’s like, well, why don’t you read the whole article? Because first of all, I don’t necessarily

believe that, but we’ll go forward. Right? Whatever the statistics are, is what they are. What I’m more

concerned about is when you’re also looking at, yes, there’s double the number of denials. There’s

double the number of denials for a subjective standard. And I know you can rattle this off without me

having to read.

Evan Nappen 07:09

So, here’s the thing that I want to do. Yes. What you discovered here are some very important nuggets

in explaining and shining the light on what is the true institutionalized racism that applies to the

disenfranchisement of Second Amendment rights for minorities. Okay? This is a reality. You have

demonstrated this reality with the data, and it’s deep. It goes to a number of reasons. Now, one of the

online comments that you just mentioned is, oh, well, that’s because blacks are more felons. You know,

more felony convictions than whites. Well, guess what? That is absolutely true. Do you know what the

ratio is? It’s six to one. Six blacks to one white, for having a criminal record. Now, think about that for a

moment, and say, hey, wait a minute. Why is that? Why is that? What our own Government has done is

sued companies, BMW, Dollar General, and recently Sheetz, like a Wawa, of Pennsylvania. They sell

gas. Under a theory that when they get ready to hire somebody, they run a criminal background check.

It comes up that the person is a convicted felon, and even though they’d want to hire them, they say,

no, because they’re a convicted felon. Our federal Government says that’s racist, because you’re

denying blacks at six to one or at least five to one to whites getting jobs. So, if our own federal

Government is saying it’s racist to deny based on a felony conviction, why is the prohibition of guns for

felons not just as racist and something that should be disallowed? Ah, I’d like to see the answer to that

question.

Evan Nappen 09:32

Now, what you’ve done is found that in the licensing denials, you have denials at two to one. Now, most

folks, if they have a felony conviction, are going to know I’m not even going to bother to apply. They

know they are a barred person. They know that their Second Amendment rights have been taken away

from them. So, those that do apply, that don’t have a felony prohibition, then they fall into that other

category of denial, where it’s subjective. The subjective category denial is the classic “public health,

safety, and welfare.” I call it the all-inclusive weasel clause. That’s where the chief gets to arbitrarily, or

the issuing authority gets to arbitrarily, deny the person based on whatever absurdity they wish to base

it on. It can be something that’s nowhere near an absurdity, but rather based on prejudice. You see it

being portrayed here in these statistics. This is why the gun laws across the board are incredibly racist,

true racism. But does the left embrace the Second Amendment and say, hey, we have to address the

racism of the Second Amendment? Tell me. What’s happened now that you’ve revealed this? Has the

Attorney General said we must now address why there’s this racial disparity, John?

John Petrolino 11:16

The Attorney General’s office has been very quiet. I reached out to them twice. The second time, a little

bit more forcefully. I probably will give them a little bit of time, maybe towards the end of the week, and

you know, maybe I approach them again. I basically told them that “no comment” is not going to cut it,

because this is a civil rights violation.Page – 4 – of 9

Evan Nappen 11:40

How about a rights violation investigation of the chiefs that they have records of, that are doing the

disproportionate denials. Will we actually see it?

John Petrolino 11:53

Who knows? All of the chiefs in New Jersey, just in case you didn’t know this, I’ve sent letters to all the

Chiefs of Police that have used the weasel clause to deny Permits to Carry. There were 62 chiefs. I

wasn’t able to hit all the barracks and stuff like that. I notified them asking for comment on why they’re

using a subjective standard. So, the Chiefs of Police are definitely on notice by this journalist and that

information will come out, too. What I think is really also interesting, and this isn’t something you and I

even discussed. So, get ready for the left field here. This “weasel clause” as we’re going to call it, it’s

not just any old weasel clause. This is the new and improved one, new for ’22. Governor Murphy signed

this into law right before Christmas, I believe it was. This law that our legislators voted for, and

Governor Murphy enacted, they actually enacted a provision of the law that made it extra deadly for the

ability to subvert rights. It says the people who are lacking the essential character of temperament

necessary to be entrusted with a firearm. By doing that, they’ve enacted a law that is disproportionately

being used against blacks. So, I wrote to the legislature, and I asked them if that was their legislative

attempt. We’ll find out what they have to say.

Evan Nappen 13:27

Yeah, because that’s exactly what they did. This is something that goes back in the history of gun

control in America. The earliest gun laws of New Jersey prohibited Native Americans and blacks from

having guns. So, this actually is very traditional for New Jersey to be racist and to stop blacks and other

minorities from having guns. In the bigger picture of guns throughout America, you see that (Chief)

Justice (Roger B.) Taney, in the famous decision that actually helped get us to the Civil War (Dred

Scott v. Sandford, United States Supreme Court, 1857), the decision by Justice Taney finding that a

freed black would have the right to bear arms and have guns, and we can’t have that you see. Right

after the Civil War, we had the Black Codes, the infamous Black Codes, where they wanted to stop the

freed blacks from having guns. So, they passed laws in the new South. After the Civil War, they passed

laws requiring that only the most expensive guns could be possessed, such as the Army and Navy

handguns and such. So, it was only the wealthier white officers and whites that could afford them. Poor

blacks couldn’t have cheap guns.

Evan Nappen 15:16

It references to modern day, the so-called Saturday Night Special bill, which is the same idea. When

they talk about cheap guns, they really are talking about people in lower economic classes being able

to have firearms for themselves. So, this racism runs throughout the gun laws to this day, to this day.

When they talk about “assault firearms”, they say, oh, it’s a choice of drug dealers. This is their

camouflage for saying, it’s the choice of blacks. This is what they do, and this is how they do it. Even in

the book, The Saturday Night Special by Robert Sherrill, and this was written in the early 70s, when the

“Saturday Night Special” was the flavor of the day for the anti-Second Amendment crowd, Sherrill said,

look, the ’68 Gun Control Act itself, which dealt with so-called “Saturday Night Specials” to a certain

degree, even he said it wasn’t, and this is a liberal guy, it wasn’t passed to regulate guns. It was passed

to go after blacks. He even admitted it then. This is a known thing and a known quantity. But the leftPage – 5 – of 9

conveniently ignores it, even though they claim to be proponents for minority rights. But in fact, they are

not.

John Petrolino 16:46

You brought up the very compelling thing talking about all those lawsuits that are happening. So, if

those lawsuits were going to happen, it’s going to happen through the Department of Justice. The

formation of the Department of Justice goes back to our postbellum United States. It was formed,

specifically, to try to protect the rights of the now freed slaves at the time, of our black brothers and

sisters. So, this is something that created that whole entire division of policing. I have a small little

excerpt here, actually I just dug it up. It’s from a book. It’s called Messages and Papers of the President

Ulysses S. Grant. Here’s a letter that Ulysses S. Grant wrote on April 19, 1872, to the House of

Representatives. He said that he just got information from the Attorney General, orally, and he said that

counties were under the sway of the power of combinations properly known as the Klu Klux Klans. The

objects of which were by force and terror to prevent all political action in the court and the views of the

members. He goes on, and he says, what was going on was there was deprivation. I’m going to quote

the end. “. . .to deprive colored citizens of the right to bear arms and of the right of a free ballot.” So,

back then Ulysses S. Grant was worried about blacks being patriotiated with their rights and was

sending the DOJ in there to sort this out and getting the House of Representatives involved. But like

you said, we don’t see that happening now, today.

Evan Nappen 18:24

No, well, Biden, his administration, and the Democrats claim that the biggest threat to America is white

supremacy. And you know what? Maybe it is, but you know, who the white supremacists are? Them.

Demonstrated by the gun laws. So, the biggest threat is them. They are the ones that are the white

supremacists by creating these laws that institutionalize the racism. We’re talking about the Second

Amendment, the right to keep and bear arms, which is extremely important, because that’s a person’s

ability to defend themselves and their families. And that’s what they’re stopping. That’s who they want

to keep enslaved and disarmed. And that’s what the left does. And that’s what these gun laws do. And

that’s what your article has helped to illustrate. The work that you’re doing is showing that in greater

and greater light, and it’s so important that it’s happening. So, John, tell the listeners where they can

find you and get your great works and read the great articles that you write.

John Petrolino 19:45

You can find me on my homepage, that’s kind of the clearinghouse for everything. It’s

ThePenPatriot.com And then from there, you can link up with my socials. You can find me on Facebook

as The Pen Patriot, and on Instagram it is jpetrolinoiii. Most importantly, you know, and if you can’t find

me that way, my email address is John@thepenpatriot.com. If there’s something going on, if you’ve got

a story tip or a lead or anything, I want to know about it, and I can cover it. I will cover it. So, that’s

John@thepenpatriot.com. Again, thepenpatriot.com is the website. And my work is all over the place,

Bearing Arms, etc.

Evan Nappen 20:32Page – 6 – of 9

John, you are serious. John is really so dedicated and has covered so many things. Your works appear

in all kinds of aggregate sites and other places. Just tell the audience where because I know I see you

all over the place. And I’m always happy to mention that. Go right ahead. Tell us where.

John Petrolino 20:54

Yeah, I pump out my work over at Bearing Arms, The Truth About Guns, AmmoLand, and Shooting

News Weekly. I also write for News2A.com. Those guys are great. Definitely link up with News2A.com.

They’ve got some good content. They are up and coming, about a year old. And then

Evan Nappen 21:11

I get every one of those and monitor them every day. So, stay informed. I always read your byline, man.

So, I want to thank you very much for being on the show, and I know folks are going to follow you

closely, as I do. John, thanks a lot for coming on today.

John Petrolino 21:32

Thanks. Thanks for having me, Evan. And thank you for what you do. So, well, we’ll catch up soon my

friend.

Evan Nappen 21:39

Yep, see you now, so long. Well, so that was very exciting to have John Petrolino on the show. I really

admire the great work that he does. I want to take a moment now to tell you about some exciting things

at WeShoot. You know that WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey, a great range, great

facility. They are right there off the parkway. WeShoot is a great place to get training and firearms and

such. Speaking of this, here’s some exciting news from WeShoot. We shoot now has the Rost Martin

RM1C gun. Let me tell you about the Rost Martin. This gun is really cool. This gun is, frankly, similar in

some ways to a Glock 19, but it shoots better than the Glock 19. Amazingly it has an MSRP of only

$465. That’s right. Only $465 is their list price. Now WeShoot has these guns and their MOS, so they’re

ready for the optic. It has a ton of great features already in it. And here’s the kicker. It’s made in Dallas,

Texas. So, this is a U.S. manufactured firearm. It is incredibly reliable and shoots incredibly well. It has

a great price point. It’s really become all the rage. So, if you want to check out the new Rost Martin

RM1C, go to WeShoot. You can check it out there. They rent guns. They have training, and they are

wonderful facility. But this is super popular. This Rost Martin.

Evan Nappen 23:59

Now WeShoot also has Member Appreciation Month, which is in May, and this is the 5th anniversary of

that. So, every year at WeShoot, they dedicate the entire month of May to their members, and they

have very exclusive special deals for their members. Now, if you want to take advantage, they’re

offering right now $100 off their membership for new members. So, you can actually, during

Membership Appreciation Month, become a member of WeShoot, if you aren’t already. I don’t know

why you’re not, and you can get $100 off their membership in May. So, now’s a great opportunity to

become part of the WeShoot family and be able to get in on their great deals. Check out the new Rost

Martin pistol. I think you’re really going to love it. I love it. I have one. They’re great, and I think you’re

going to really appreciate that. So, go to WeShoot. You can find them at weshootusa.com Check out

their website and pay a visit. You’ll be glad that you did.Page – 7 – of 9

Evan Nappen 25:16

I also want to mention the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. The Association of New

Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is the umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in New Jersey that are

members of the association. Then you, as an individual member, are part of that. This is how we unify

and fight for gun rights. They are the number one fighter for gun rights in the state of New Jersey. It’s

anjrpc.org. Their Executive Director, Scott Bach, who is a dear friend of mine, and who has worked

tirelessly for gun rights in New Jersey, has been reelected to the NRA Board. And that is great because

the NRA needs Scott from Jersey representing not just the interests of gun owners, but particularly New

Jersey. Scott is a great voice for us there at the NRA Board. During these times at the NRA, now more

than ever, we need somebody there to get the ship righted, and going strong. Scott is the man. So,

congratulations to Scott for his reelection to the NRA Board and for serving as our leader of the

Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You need to be a member of the Association. Make

sure you are. You’re going to get a great newsletter, and you’re going to get email updates. It’s

absolutely a great investment in your Second Amendment rights. You know, when you are a member,

that you are part of the solution to this fight.

Evan Nappen 27:09

Now is the moment when I also shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. It is the

Bible of New Jersey gun law. It is over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format.

It’s your guidebook through the matrix of New Jersey’s insanity. When you get my book, scan the front

cover, and make sure you become part of my free subscriber database – 100% free. You get access

right away to the archive for any and all updates to the book, and you’re going to get email notices of

any new laws, any additions, etc. This keeps the book current so that you stay on top of the changes in

this challenging environment of New Jersey gun law. This book is used by the New Jersey State Police

Firearms Division. It’s used by law enforcement agencies. It’s used by judges, lawyers, and most

importantly by gun owners throughout New Jersey to help keep them legal and out of the clutches of

New Jersey’s insane gun laws. This way you don’t become a GOFU. So, to get my book, go to

EvanNappen.com. That’s right, my full name.com. EvanNappen.com You’ll see the book right there,

just click it and you can get your copy.

Evan Nappen 28:42

So, I’ve gotten some very interesting letters, and I want to share some of them with you. Here’s a nice

follow up from Jim. Jim says, hi Evan. I watched your podcast concerning the issue with squeezing 11

rounds into the Glock 43X and was wondering the result of the person who had the issue, especially if

Glock agreed to update the owner’s 43X mags. So, here’s the deal. Glock will update the mags, but the

problem is how do you get the mags to them to update without violating New Jersey’s law on

transporting large capacity magazines and possessing them while you’re doing it, etc.? We were

working on trying to get the Attorney General to acknowledge this so that you could at least bring it to a

dealer and be covered. For that we needed Glock to officially announce that they will take care of this

problem, that they recognize it. But Glock so far has not done so. So, even though my understanding is

that Glock will exchange the magazines, they’ve not put out anything, to my knowledge, officially

acknowledging that they sold so-called 10 round magazines that hold more than 10 rounds and subject

everybody who got them that lives in jurisdictions, not just New Jersey, where over 10 rounds arePage – 8 – of 9

prohibited, to criminal prosecution for their mistake. So, for some reason they’re not owning up to that,

officially, although they are apparently willing to exchange the magazine. But you can see the issue.

So, listen, be careful. Don’t become a victim. If you have a Glock mag that holds more than 10 rounds. I

would strongly suggest that you don’t fall into that trap. Now, thanks, Jim. If I do get word from Glock of

anything official, I will absolutely put it out on the show.

Evan Nappen 30:54

Now I have a letter here from Chris, regarding concealed carry permit, New Jersey moving to

Pennsylvania. Hello, Evan, I have a concealed carry in New Jersey and a non-resident concealed carry

in Pennsylvania. I currently live in NJ and we’re thinking about moving to PA. If we do move, do I turn in

my New Jersey permit? And what are the steps? Also on a related note, when my New Jersey two year

renewal comes up and I don’t want to renew it, are there any steps? Or do I just don’t fill out

paperwork? Thank you. Well, Chris, you do not have to turn in your New Jersey carry because unlike

the Firearms Purchaser ID Card, it’s not address specific. You don’t have that obligation on the carry

permit. If you notice, the carry permit doesn’t have your address on it. So, it’s not about that. You can

maintain it and keep it. You still are licensed in New Jersey, as well as taking care of what you need to

in Pennsylvania. So, there’s no necessity to turn in your New Jersey Permit to Carry.

Evan Nappen 32:05

However, when the renewal comes up, you can either renew or not renew. If you renew, then you

renew as a non-resident. Because now you’re going to be subject to that and the issuing authority will

be the State Police as opposed to the town that was the issuing authority where you lived in New

Jersey. So, you can either do nothing, let your New Jersey permit expire and then that’s it, you’re not

licensed in Jersey, or you can renew as a non-resident, which would be a better idea because you can

maintain your New Jersey permit, even though I’m sure once you move to Pennsylvania, you’re saying

I’ll never want to come back to New Jersey again. However, life is funny, and you may end up having to

come back to Jersey here and then, back and forth, at least to see old friends and brag that you got out

of New Jersey. So, you may want to keep your New Jersey carry permit. If that’s the case, just do your

renewal as a non-resident. Thanks for a very good question.

Evan Nappen 33:13

Now, folks, you know I get a lot of letters, and I love getting letters. I love helping my fellow gun owners

and all that. It really is what my entire life has been about. It’s my whole calling, and it’s what I do. I love

it. But every once in a while, I get a letter like this. This kind of letter just makes me go, seriously? So,

let me read you this letter from Jo. Jo says, “Regarding your video about cars in a mob”. Now, number

one, I haven’t done a video about cars in a mob for Gun Lawyer. I don’t know what this is. What is this?

Then he says, I don’t even know what he’s talking about but okay. “Dear Sir, I enjoyed your sorrow

video” . . . I swear to God, he wrote sorrow, sorrow, sorrow video. I don’t know what that means. “I

enjoyed your sorrow video on your rights being caught in your car in a mob.” Okay, this is a podcast.

So, I don’t know what video, I don’t know what a sorrow video or what it even means. Then being

caught in your car in a mob. Alright. “Very clear and concise.” Really? Okay. “However, I feel that you

unfairly and knowingly misrepresented the reason the protesters are there. They are requesting the

university to divest of funds that make the university money by supporting Israel. I am neither JewishPage – 9 – of 9

nor Palestinian, but I will never or click on your site again. You lose your integrity and reliability by this

clear and biased commentary. Here’s hoping you reconsider your delivery and messages.”

Evan Nappen 35:13

So, I don’t have any video, or any commentary whatsoever on protesters at the universities and guns

and never did any of this, that he’s thinking I did or didn’t do. But I do want to be clear about something.

When it comes to clear and unbiased testimony, commentary, I’m sorry about that whole situation. Let

me be clear here, folks. If you are supporting Hamas terrorists, Fuck You! Is that bias enough? I don’t

know. Maybe not. But there you go. As far as that issue, I’m happy to address it. As far as the rest of

his issue goes, he’s an idiot and doesn’t know what he’s talking about. So, hopefully, that handles that.

Evan Nappen 36:14

Hey, now let’s talk about the GOFU. The GOFU is the segment that’s extremely popular, where you get

to learn a very inexpensive lesson that is very expensive for somebody else. The GOFU is a Gun

Owner Fuck Up. This is what happens when individuals, unfortunately, try to use common sense when

dealing with New Jersey gun laws or any gun law for that matter. You need to make sure that you get

the right information to make the right choices. Man, I had a fellow just this week who just had a series,

a series, of GOFUs. He thought, hey, he had guns taken, and they weren’t taken with any actual

statutory authority. So, he talks to the police, and the police say oh, you need to call the prosecutor’s

office. Ahhh, aaaannnnt. The last thing you want to do, as a citizen with a gun issue, is call the

prosecutor’s office. By calling the prosecutor’s office, he triggered the prosecutor to bring a motion for

forfeiture and revocation. Whereas, if that call hadn’t been made, things could have been arranged

differently. Actions could have been taken to help ensure a return. And if that trigger needed to be

pulled, it could have been pulled at the appropriate time. Now, instead, it’s being done because of the

person initiating it upon themselves. There are other legal mechanisms that could have been done. It’s

really a shame.

Evan Nappen 38:10

The GOFU is this, folks. If you have an issue, do not reach out to the prosecutor. That is not for you to

do. You should have an attorney do that. Because you now walked into the lion’s den, and you have no

clue. You don’t understand the laws, all the tricks and traps and the agenda that the Prosecutors’

Offices have. Not all of them, but a good many of them. So, you’ve got to be really careful. If you need

something done related to firearms, you make sure you have your lawyer do it. A lawyer who knows

what they’re doing. Otherwise, it becomes a GOFU, and it’s something that could have been avoided.

This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They

protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 39:16

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by

Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and

opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E185_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

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Episode 184- Is there really a Jersey Legal OTF? Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 184SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, firearm, law, switchblade, great, knife, carry, possession, utility knife, gun, case, transport, exemption, box cutter, state, question, subsection, amazon, blade, possessing

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16
Hello, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. On the last show we talked about Kade the cow that was a kind of a gun shop mascot at A&G Shooting in Fairfield, Maine. And how having that cute little calf is an attraction for young people and old alike. I put out there about if any of you had other suggestions or know of other gun shop type animals and such. Well, I’ve gotten a number of responses, but I have two here that I want to share with you before we get into the big topic of the show. Is there a Jersey legal OTF? An OTF is known as an Out The Front switchblade. Ooooooh. Is there? You may be surprised to hear what I have to tell you. I’ll give you a hint – loophole. Okay.

Evan Nappen 01:23
So, this is from Sherra, a listener of the show, who says regarding the gun shop mascot. Ready for this, folks? “Lance Corporal Chesty McBoomstick is our range cat. We even made him an Instagram account so we wouldn’t clog up our regular range account with cat pics. (https://www.instagram.com/lcplchesty) We have several customers who will come by just to say hi to him. He’s been known to calm anxious children and adults. He loves greeting the customers and isn’t afraid of the gunfire.” This is from the gun shop, I actually found it, Sandhill Shooting Sports in Lugoff, South Carolina. Of course, we have listeners all throughout the world. (sandhillshootingsports.com) Sandhill Shooting Sports has a mascot cat named Lance Corporal Chesty McBoomstick. I went over to look at their Instagram pictures, and it is one cute little kitty. I have to agree. But the really funny thing is he has one of those wraparound Velcro vests on that sometimes you’ll see on emotional support animals. But Chesty there, Lance Corporal McBroomstick, has a very interesting chest rig that he’s wearing, and it has a patch on it. Since he’s their official range cat, what the patch says, you can see this on their Instagram account, it says DON’T SHOOT ME ASSHOLE. I guess that’s pretty good. Because if you’re a range cat, that’s a good idea to say that. I guess that’s training just like you write COW on a cow so that a hunter doesn’t shoot it as a deer. Right, that old gag. So, there you go. Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us. If you’re ever in that area they’re in, Lugoff, South Carolina, stop by and say hello to Chesty. That’s pretty cool.

Evan Nappen 03:55
I got another letter here, and this one is from Andrew. Andrew says regarding gun store animals. I think a talking parrot would be ideal for a gun store. He can be trained to say things like F Joe Biden or the ATF sucks or some other pro-gun slogan. I like that. I think we have a lot of great things we could train

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a parrot to say that would be very appropriate at a gun store. He also has a question. So, he’s going to sneak in a question, but that’s okay. Andrew, I love answering questions. Andrew lives in a condo complex. Would they be considered private property for the purpose of carrying a firearm without a permit or are condominiums considered a public area? Thanks. Well, the problem we find with condominiums is you have this thing called “common areas”. If it’s a common area, then your carry in a common area, if it’s open to the public and as long as you have a carry permit, then you’re okay. But you have got to be careful. If you don’t have a carry permit, then you can’t carry under exemption for your home in a common area because common areas are not necessarily your home. They’re common areas. But if you have a carry permit and if the common area is open to the public, then that would get you the ability there to do that. So, it can get complicated depending on the specific facts of the given condo or even apartment complex etc.

Evan Nappen 05:35
Anyway, what I want to tell you about is a very, very interesting product that I’ve discovered. They’re right on Amazon, you know the modern day equivalent of what Sears Roebuck was in the old days. On Amazon, they sell what is called Caressolove Aviation Aluminum utility knife. This apparently is the best one of the ones that I’ve tested and found at the best price. It’s called the Caressolove Aviation Aluminum utility knife EDC, which stands for Every Day Carry, auto box cutters, retractable, heavy duty cardboard cutter, replaceable blade pocketknife with clip with five spare blades. What this is is an OTF, an out the front, box cutter. This is a great idea because this box cutter OTF. Here listen close, folks, I’ll run it for you. There you go, in and out. That box cutter OTF can very quickly exchange blades. It’s about half the size in length of like your standard Stanley box cutter that genre of box cutters. It uses those box cutter blades. You know those trapezoidal, I guess you’d call them. What’s great is that instead of using your other knife, utility knife etc. or a knife that you carry, maybe your EDC carry knife, by having this relatively handy and small box cutter knife, you can use it for cutting open boxes and gooey tape and slicing through cardboard which really dulls a blade. I mean cutting a lot of cardboard. Do you know you can actually sharpen your knife on cardboard? I don’t want to divert too much from this, but literally if you ever need to give your knife that has an edge but it’s getting a little dull. You can actually use cardboard as a sharpening stone to the degree of restoring the finer edge to a knife. Believe it or not. You can do that with cardboard. But anyway, cardboard will dull a knife blade very quickly. And getting all that goo from tape or anything else you may use a utility knife, a box cutter knife, for, this is just the handiest thing. You have two blade sides. Of course, you can switch it when the other one gets dull real fast. They’re very cheap, too. On Amazon, you can buy 90 replacement blades for 11 bucks. You know that should keep you in business for a good long time. 90 blades for $11. The sale price on, it’s not a sale sale, but the price on Amazon is 31.99. So, for $32, and if you’re a prime member, it’s free shipping and the shipping is like in a day, you can get yourself one of these. And they’re just great. I’ve been using it a lot. I’ve been using this knife more than any knife I’ve ever carried because it is just great for all the gross yucky tasks that you otherwise would have to use your other knife for and have to clean it and get all the sticky stuff off and keep that blade sharp. So, here you can have this.

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Evan Nappen 09:21
Now what’s really interesting is where does this OTF box cutter, utility knife, fit in under the law particularly how does it work under New Jersey law? Is it legal to have this under Jersey law? Well, let’s take a detailed look at that question, folks. We’re going to take a detailed look. So, let’s start with the law. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.d., that’s New Jersey’s Other Weapons prohibition. We’ve talked about this before on the show, but it can’t hurt to review it again. What it says is: “Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.” We’ve discussed how the courts under the Kelly decision and Montalvo, having said that, you cannot preemptively arm yourself for self-defense. That’s not considered a manifestly appropriate use, such lawful use. So, even though you’d think self-defense would be, but it’s not. At least it wasn’t until Montalvo, which then allows you to do that in your home but not outside your home. Then, of course, with Bruen it looks like that Montalvo case will have to be modified yet again, to allow self-defense as a manifestly appropriate for such lawful use as it may have outside the home. But that case hasn’t come about yet.

Evan Nappen 10:53
So, when you look at that, what’s nice about this, because this would be one of the laws you could be charged under, one of two for your possession, would be this 2C:39-5.d. law. What’s nice is you’re not carrying this for self-defense. You’re carrying it to open boxes, to open and cut gooey cape, and other things. To use it as a utilitarian knife, which is exactly what it’s sold as, which is exactly what a box cutter is. Therefore, your reason to have it is virtually self-explanatory. It virtually is, if you have it for that reason. And, of course, you would never carry such a thing for self-defense. I know that. You’re carrying it for those uses, and then you have an exemption, arguably built into the statute.

Evan Nappen 11:45
But, keep in mind, there’s even another exemption to that statute, which are the possession exemptions found under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e. By the way, if you say how am I going to remember these laws, you don’t have to remember these laws. You can go right to the Gun Lawyer podcast website. We have the transcript of every show, and the laws will be right there. You can see what I’m saying, and you can look at them right there. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e., the exemption says: “Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5 . . . ” Now we were talking about subsection d., which is Other weapons. Subsection b. is handguns and c. is rifles and shotguns. These are the same traditional exemptions we’ve always relied upon for possession of firearms and other weapons that fall under the 39-5d. prohibition. This exemption applies. (Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5) “shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about the person’s place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by the person, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section . . .”

Evan Nappen 13:06
So, if you’re going to transport a gun, you have to do it pursuant to subsection g., which is cased and unloaded. It’s always been how we’ve done it in Jersey, but that exemption covers d., so it covers other weapons. So, even just having it in your home is legal for exemption for possession your home. But now, with a box cutter utility, you have that manifestly appropriate use, as long as that’s the reason you’re carrying it. Now, of course, New Jersey could then say, aha, but this box cutter is what New

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Jersey calls a switchblade. New Jersey would arguably attempt to define this as a switchblade by claiming that this knife opens automatically. It opens automatically, and it has that button or other device in the handle of the knife.

Evan Nappen 14:02
Let’s take a close look at exactly how “switchblade” is defined in New Jersey law. Under section p. of N.J.S. 2C:39-1, it says: “Switchblade knife” means any knife or similar device which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife.” So, New Jersey would say, hey, you push that button on the side of the knife and out that knife blade comes. If you pull it back, it goes back. Therefore, it’s a switchblade . What does the law say under N.J.S., 2C:39-9, subsection d. concerning weapons? It says: any person who, I’m sorry, don’t go to nine. Let’s stick with 39-3 for a minute. I’ll get to nine in a minute.

Evan Nappen 14:56
Under N.J.S. 2C:39-3.e., it says, “Certain weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sand club, slingshot, cestus or other leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood . . .” Man, this is just loaded with great ideas this statute. I gotta say. But anyway, “. . . ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.” Aha! What is your explainable lawful purpose under 39-3? Your explainable lawful purpose is exactly what this is, a box cutter utility knife made and sold by Amazon for that very purpose. That’s why you have it. So, when it comes to switchblade possession under Jersey law, the prohibition under 39-3 that specifically names “switchblade” has a built-in exemption if you have any explainable lawful purpose. The explainable lawful purpose is precisely what this is, a box cutter utility knife. Therefore, under both N.J.S. 2:39-5.d. where there is a manifestly appropriate for such lawful use as it may have, and N.J.S. 2C:39-3.e. where the explainable lawful purpose, you have both here in possessing a box cutter utility knife for the purpose of box cutting and utility. So, there you go.

Evan Nappen 16:49
Now Jersey also has N.J.S. 2C:39-9.d., and what this says is interesting. It says: “Weapons. Any person who manufactures, causes to be manufactured, transports, ships, sells or disposes of any weapon, including gravity knives, switchblade knives, ballistic knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, billies, blackjacks, metal knuckles, sandclubs, slingshots, cesti or similar leather bands studded with metal filings, or, except as otherwise provided in subsection i. of this section, in the case of firearms if he is not licensed or registered to do so (as provided in chapter 58 of Title 2C of the New Jersey Statues,) is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.” So, New Jersey is prohibiting the transport, shipping, and sale of switchblades. They have that as just a standalone, even though your possession is legal. But you’re not selling it, you’re not manufacturing it, and you’re not disposing of it. So, this doesn’t apply to the individual who is simply possessing it. Now, transport is different from carry. I would beware, though, of carrying it in your car, etc. That’s where they might say, hey, you’re transporting, and they could try to bust you over the transport ability under d. So, you want to be careful about that. But your possession plainly has the lawfulness, as we’ve discussed, if you’re possessing it accordingly. This raises a very interesting thing for New Jersey, this OTF that is a box cutter utility knife, and it is just amazingly handy.

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Evan Nappen 18:37
Now, it’s interesting here. If we take it even one more level, we can look at the Federal Switchblade Act. If you want to see a great resource on that, go to KnifeRights.org. (https://kniferights.org/resources/federal-switchblade-act/) I’ve also been counsel to Knife Rights, a great organization defending our knife rights. They currently have a Second Amendment challenge to the Federal Switchblade Act. But if you look at the Federal Switchblade Act, that’s where it even gets more interesting in a way. The Federal Switchblade Act does prohibit switchblades, but it doesn’t prohibit individual possession in states. The Federal Switchblade Act prohibits switchblades in terms of interstate commerce. A switchblade is defined as any knife having a blade which opens automatically. This is under federal law now. (U.S. Code Title 15, Commerce and Trade, Chapter 29-Manufacture, Transportation, or Distribution of Switchblade Knives, SS 1241. Definitions) The Federal Switchblade Act is currently being challenged by Knife Right. So, please support them in their legal challenge to knock this out as a Second Amendment violation.

Evan Nappen 19:57
Under the federal definition, “the term ‘switchblade knife’ means any knife having a blade which opens automatically – (1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle of the knife or (2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.” So, it seems to, arguably, possibly fit that definition. Then it says under SS 1242. (Introduction, manufacture for introduction, transportation or distribution in interstate commerce; penalty) “Whoever knowingly introduces, or manufactures for introduction, into interstate commerce, or transports or distributes in interstate commerce, any switchblade knife . . . ” So, there is a federal ban on essentially introducing into commerce, a switchblade knife. The law only prohibits introducing, manufacturing, transporting or distributing switchblades if doing so is part of a business transaction and that transaction crosses over state or territorial lines. The law does not affect, of course, selling in the same state and has no effect on carry or possession alone, unless you fall into one of these specific prohibitor sections, which involve territories of the U.S. and maritime jurisdictions, etc. But in the 50 states, possession in the state is regulated still by the states.

Evan Nappen 21:20
But this other aspect of the federal law raises an interesting question. How is Amazon selling these if they fall under this? I don’t know the answer to that. I’m assuming Amazon has lots of highly paid lawyers that have looked at this and explained somehow how Amazon is able to do this. But currently, that’s where they are. And it’s not on you, the buyer. It is, of course, on the seller here when it comes to this stuff. By the way, this is pretty much routinely not enforced when it comes to this. Now I’m not saying that you should engage in this conduct. But it’s just that I have noticed when it comes down to the Federal Switchblade Act, even Knife Rights notes, that essentially there are switchblade sales taking place, and a lot of major companies sell them online. There are weird laws federally that go beyond this in terms of who you can ship to and such, being bona fide dealers and how the distribution network is laid out. Anyway, it’s just interesting. So, I wanted to point out that we have this federal law out there, but, hey, Amazon is selling them online, and possession is legal in Jersey, if you fall within the exemptions that I’ve discussed. I find that very interesting, and in fact, somewhat of a loophole for a knife that is extremely useful and utilitarian. I thought that you, the listener, would find it to be just as interesting.

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Evan Nappen 22:57
Now, here’s a little news update. SCOTUS, which is, of course, the Supreme Court of the United States, has scheduled ‘assault weapon’ ban cases for conference on May 16. This is exciting because when the court gathers for a conference, it means they may take the case. Now, this happens to be from Cam Edwards’ article in Bearing Arms. (https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2024/05/01/scotus- schedules-assault-weapon-ban-cases-for-may-16th-conference-n1224732) He has a great aggregate website, and I highly recommend checking it out. Cam Edwards. He brought this to my attention here in a great article because I am a big fan of Cam.

Evan Nappen 23:37
Cam points out that Bianchi versus Brown, which is a challenge to Maryland’s ban on assault weapon, is scheduled for conference. This means that the Court may take it up, and if they do, then we’ll finally get a Second Amendment decision out of the United States Supreme Court. This could have a dramatic effect in killing the assault firearm and weapon bans throughout the United States that have destroyed individuals by turning law-abiding citizens who possessed modern sporting rifles into criminals and felons and imprisoning them. In New Jersey, possession of such a firearm is insanely serious. It carries up to 10 years in State Prison and a minimum mandatory three and a half years. And, of course, you get subjected to the Gun Owner Gulag, as we’ve discussed on other shows.

Evan Nappen 24:38
Of course, defending us is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are in federal court, as we speak, challenging New Jersey’s assault firearm law. It so happens that the Maryland case is a little bit ahead of New Jersey. But if they accept the Maryland case, it will absolutely impact the litigation being brought by our state Association and may in fact kill the Jersey law as the Association fights its way through as well. This is extremely exciting. Let’s hope that the Court takes the case, especially with the makeup of the Court as we have it now, and finally, issues that deathblow to the ban on the political term “assault firearm”. The political concoction, the political strategy of the anti-gunners to isolate guns that have been around for over 100 years, semi- automatic, modern sporting firearms, etc. It is a joke, and it’s ridiculous. Yet it is harmed so many law-abiding citizens who become victims of these gun laws. So, let’s hope the Supreme Court takes the case, and I’m cautiously optimistic that they will. This is why it’s so important for you to belong to our Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure you do. Go to anjrpc.org to join. You’ll get their newsletter, and you’ll be sent the news alerts. You’ll be updated on the cases, and you’ll know that you are part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 26:24
Also, let me mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor pistol range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They are a wonderful facility and a great resource. It’s where I shoot. That’s where my family shoots and that’s where you can shoot. They’re great. They’ll treat you like family. They have wonderful training programs. You can get your CCARE certification to get your carry permit. They’ll set you up with great guns, everything you need to be a law-abiding responsible gun owner. Learn how to shoot fantastically. Because what good is it if you can hit your target? And it’s so much fun as well. You want to check out WeShoot located right there in Lakewood. It’s so easy to get to, right off the Parkway. So convenient. They are really one of the top ranges in New Jersey. I love WeShoot, and I know you will too. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com They have a great website with beautiful photography,

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and they really are just such professionals. Check out their wonderful programs and great events they are running at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 27:37
Let me also shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It is the 25th Anniversary Edition. It is the book that every gun owner needs in New Jersey. I’m not kidding. It’s not an exaggeration, folks. This is your guidebook. This is your user guide. This is what’s going to help you not become a victim of New Jersey gun laws and to understand this crazy matrix that we’re trying to stay law-abiding in. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics in a question and answer format, easy to understand. Scan that QR code on the front and make sure you do. You’ll get into our free subscriber database, 100% free, and you’ll get updates. You’ll be able to access the archives for past updates, and you’ll get email notifications from me if anything new happens that affects our gun rights. So, if you want to get a copy of the big orange book, go to EvanNappen.com. EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 28:40
Hey, I have some more great letters here, and this one’s from Ronald. Ronald says, regarding turning in digital FID (Voluntary Admission Disqualification). First off, I want to thank you for all you do for the 2A community. Having your podcast as a resource has been extremely helpful to all of us gun owners in New Jersey to ensure we don’t get trapped in all of our state’s unconstitutional laws. Also, I love your book, and I’ve given it as a gift to many friends because I know if I lend out my copy, I will likely never get it back. You are so right, Ron. Thank you for all those great compliments. I really appreciate it. My question today is in regard to the provisions in Murphy’s Carry killer law from December 2022 that retroactively invalidated tens of thousands of FIDs for persons with voluntary admissions who had previously submitted a doctor’s letter to get approved. Yep, it sure did. As part of the law, it was instructed that all FIDs should be turned over within five days. Yeah, that is the law. What about residents who received the new digital FID card (how the state started issuing them during the pandemic)? Since it’s just a digital file, can I get in trouble for not turning it in since there was no physical item to turn in? In addition, my understanding was that any guns I had purchased before this law went into effect could still be kept and used as normal. Is that the case?

Evan Nappen 30:04
Okay, so the first question, how do you turn it in? Well, you can give notice to your local police. Send them a letter or send them an email. Just document that you are voluntarily surrendering your Firearms ID Card. Now, as far as the difference between being legal for the licensing and legal for possession, that is absolutely the case in Jersey. It may seem counterintuitive, but it’s true. If you are disqualified to have a license, it does not necessarily mean that you are disqualified from having possession of a gun. When Murphy changed the law in December 2022, they changed the law so that if you’ve had a voluntary or involuntary commitment, you need to have a mental health expungement to get a license. However, they didn’t change the old law regarding the proof that you’re safe for firearms when it comes to individuals who are possessing guns. So, the person not to possess criminal statute was not changed to mandate expungement. Whereas the licensing standard was. So, if you have your proof that you’re safe for handling firearms, then you are still exempted from the possession statute. You’re not barred from possession. It’s just the license that has become disqualified for you. And that license allows you to purchase new firearms, and of course, transport broader than the exemptions. But the

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exemption is still applied You can go to the target range. You can have it in your home under the very exemptions we’ve talked about many times on the show. So, that is the distinction. It’s important to recognize that distinction. So, thanks for the great question, Ron.

Evan Nappen 31:52
Here’s another question. This one says, Hi, Evan, I love the show and the Gun Law book. I have a follow up question to a question you answered last week regarding carrying in your car. If I’m legally carrying in my car and I want to enter a prohibited place if I remove the magazine and make sure the chamber is empty, place the gun in his safe tethered to a seat frame in the car and cover the safe with a carpet or drop cloth, is that enough? Well, sure. You removed the mag, the gun is unloaded, and you’ve locked it in a gun safe. So, it’s locked in that safe. That’s great. Do I need to lock the safe in the trunk? No, you don’t need to lock the safe in the trunk. You just need to secure it in your vehicle. It does not need to be in the trunk. Now if you want to put it in the trunk locked, you can do that. But if you have it tethered with one of those cables the way most of them do, cabled to the seat, I suggest sliding it under your seat or covering it. But it’s actually very secure in that because that’s what it’s made to do. It’s made to transport guns securely. That’s why it’s cabled to the seat. That’s why that device is designed that way, and you’re meeting the statutory requirements by having the gun unloaded and secured in the proper manner.

Evan Nappen 33:02
Then Tom goes further. If the prohibited place is a restaurant where I consume an adult beverage with dinner, what do I have to do to be legal? I’m aware I cannot carry after having a drink. And that is absolutely true. You cannot consume alcohol. And you cannot be under the influence of alcohol. So, you cannot carry not only after having a drink, but you cannot carry if you’re drinking. So, if you’re going to go to that restaurant and you intend to drink, do not carry your gun. Secure it in the way we just talked about. Then Tom asks, Is it enough to lock the safe, too? Is it enough to lock the safe in the trunk? Do I need to take all the rounds out of the magazine? Can they be in the safe with the unloaded gun? I’d appreciate some guidance.

Evan Nappen 33:46
So, here’s the deal. If you’re consuming alcohol or about to consume alcohol and you were carrying and you pull into that restaurant, now you secure your gun. The law prohibits you from carrying your loaded handgun on your person with a permit. You cannot carry it if you have consumed alcohol or are under the influence of alcohol. But if you have it unloaded and cased and all, you can transport it. The prohibition is specifically on carry, not on transportation, if you’re properly transporting it from that sensitive place, now you’re going home etc. That is what covers you. You do not want to be in violation of carrying your firearm while consuming alcohol or cannabis or any other type of substance like that. Or being under the influence of any substance like that. So, that is the answer, and thank you for the great question.

Evan Nappen 34:54
Now I have what is one of the most popular segments of the show, which is the GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. We talk about GOFUs because GOFUs are an expensive lesson that you can learn very cheaply. As a matter of fact, you learn it for free by listening to Gun Lawyer. Now, this one is also a

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question, but the question actually raises what a potential GOFU is. Fortunately, the person who wrote this does not appear to have committed the GOFU yet. And I hope that’s the case. Let me explain from his letter what it is. Hi, Evan, I’m a big fan of your podcast and bought your book on New Jersey Gun Law. I recently have a workplace injury and am struggling with anxiety and stress about keeping the job. At employee health, they recommend I call employee assistant program where I could get support with my stress and anxiety about my situation. I just want to know that if I take their advice or am prescribed anything, are my gun rights at risk?

Evan Nappen 35:55
The answer, unfortunately, is yes, they are. Now look, I cannot tell you not to get help if you need help with stress and anxiety. If you need help medically, then you have to decide whether you’re going to do that or not. If it’s best for your health to do it, then you need to do what you need to do. But strictly talking about the legal aspect of it and its impact on guns, if you are treated or observed by a doctor or psychiatrist, then you will have to answer “yes” to Question 26 on every New Jersey gun application (a New Jersey Firearm Purchaser ID Card Application or New Jersey Permit to Purchase a Handgun). Then you will have to submit a proof, a doctor’s report, that you’re safe for handling firearms. Now you’ve opened up that entire can of worms, my friend, and it requires your getting that doctor’s letter or certificate. Many doctors are afraid to say somebody is good for guns, even though they know damn well they are, but they don’t want the liability. So, now you may have trouble getting a doctor. Plus, you’re going to have to pay the doctor. And all that’s going to kick in.

Evan Nappen 36:57
So, our idiotic stupid gun law system actually creates a discouragement for people getting help. Because if you get the help, then you screw around with your Second Amendment rights. It becomes a GOFU for many people, many people. I get cases all the time with mental health as the issue because it triggers this. Then if you don’t write “yes” on the form or you think it doesn’t count, then you’re charged criminally with falsification for not revealing it. You’re facing five years in State Prison. So, as you can see, this can escalate badly. I’d be very careful as to who I speak with. If this medical person you’re speaking to is simply a therapist, if they’re not a doctor or psychiatrist, you need to see what their credentials are before you even speak to them to see if they trigger Question 26 as it’s written. That’s a fact question you have to answer for yourself. But if it does, then you’re going to have a new answer, and you’re going to have to deal with it. It’s going to cost you money, and it may jeopardize your gun rights. It’s stupid, and it needs to change.

Evan Nappen 38:08
New Jersey is amazingly intrusive here, more intrusive than any other state. Federal law only asks whether you’ve had an involuntary commitment. They don’t even ask about voluntary commitments. And New Jersey doesn’t stop at voluntary commitments. They ask whether you have been treated or observed by any doctor, psychiatrist, for any medical or psychological condition. It is insanity in Jersey, but at least you know how this works. So, thank you for the great question. Thank you for presenting a potential GOFU that I hope doesn’t become one for you. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

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Speaker 3 38:51
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E184_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 183-Two Game Wardens, Seven Hunters and a CowAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 183SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, gun shop, law, carry, cow, new jersey, great, lawyer, zebu, evan, calf, shoot, firearm, state, exemption, foo, called, carry permit, permit, provision

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, Tom Lehrer

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I don’t know how many of you have ever heard of Tom Lehrer. Tom Lehrer was a songwriter. He did satire via song. He originally was a Harvard mathematician, believe it or not, Harvard teacher and mathematician, and he wrote some really great comedy songs. They’re just hilarious. He did a number of things and was active in that and then he just kind of retired from it. I think he’s still alive these days, but he doesn’t do any more musical things. But if you ever get a chance to listen to any of the Tom Lehrer songs, I think you’ll get a kick out of it. But there’s a particular song that I want to mention, it’s called “The Hunting Song”. I want to play a clip, a short clip, from Tom Lehrer’s “The Hunting Song” that was released in 1953. It was one of his earlier releases. So, if you would, Mr. Producer, play that cut.

Tom Lehrer 01:35
I always will remember, ‘Twas a year ago November, I went out to hunt some deer. On a mornin’ bright and clear. I went and shot the maximum the game laws would allow, two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

Evan Nappen 01:51
That’s right. That’s what he shot. The key to today’s show is that last little tidbit of shooting a cow. Now, you know that hunters have been famous for that little faux pas, at times. You know, the classic joke was shooting the farmer’s cow. They even had some famous picture where the farmers would right across the side of the cow, the word “COW” so that hunters would identify that it is in fact a cow. I guess the response to that was to have deer spray painting the word “COW” on the side of their bodies to try to fool the hunters. But I don’t know how much of that occurred. Nonetheless, the shooting of a cow.

Evan Nappen 02:49
So why am I talking about cows and guns and all this? Well, let me tell you. I found a very interesting article that I got a kick out of was on Fox News. The article is by Christine Rousselle, and the title of it is, “Maine gun store hires udderly adorable employee, a baby cow.” (https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/maine-gun-store-hires-adorable-employee-baby-cow) That’s right. This gun store in Maine, it figures that it’s Maine, now has a baby cow in the gun store. According to the article, the cow is currently a calf named Kade, and it’s the “shop pet” of A&G Shooting, a gun store in
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Fairfield, Maine. The owner explained Kade’s backstory. Kade’s Mom unfortunately had rejected him, and they found him shivering and cold and lying in some mud in the woods. The owner, Adam Hendsbee, explained all this. So, they brought him in and cared for this calf, which happens to be a Miniature Zebu, a Miniature Zebu calf. They nursed Kade back to health, and he is now at the gun shop.

Evan Nappen 04:32
He wanders around the gun shop. I guess it’s kind of an interesting draw to a gun shop. They claim that this calf brings a lot of smiling faces and a lot of kids. He gets the newer generation into stuff and makes the gun shop a little warmer. There may be some truth to that. This calf is actually pretty darn cute. But interestingly, the Miniature Zebu is a rare and critically endangered breed of cattle. I didn’t know that were endangered breeds of cattle, but there you go. Apparently, a full grown Miniature Zebu, I like that they put the word “miniature” in there, ends up weighing anywhere between 400 and 600 pounds. That’s a hell of a gun shop employee. Now, apparently compared to a Black Angus that’s small, because they get up to 1,000 pounds. But hey, so here you go. So, if you go to A&G Shooting in Fairfield, Maine, you’ll see this calf in the store. And you know, as the gun shops develop new and innovative marketing, and he’s gotten all kinds of national publicity from this, so I guess it apparently worked.

Evan Nappen 06:04
But, of course, you could also say, hey, it’s a training aid for hunters. So, now they can identify, quite specifically, what a cow is compared to a deer and not become the butt of the Tom Lehrer song. But I was starting to think about cows in gun shops as employees, and I thought it would be pretty good to try to get the New Jersey State Police to pink card a gun shop cow. That might be fun. You know, this is something that might get some publicity. I was thinking it’s not a bad idea on one hand to have an animal like that, that is different and cuddly and cute, in a gun store to entice, as he said, kids, the younger generation, individuals that might not otherwise be even interested in going into the gun shop. So, I just want to put it out there.

Evan Nappen 07:08
What do you think would be the best animal for a gun shop? Now I’ve been in many gun shops that have dogs, and dogs are always a winner. Everyone loves dogs. I’ve met some really nice dogs in gun shops, and they seem to love the clientele. But there’s a lot of dogs around so it’s not going to have the same impact as having a Miniature Zebu cow in your store. Definitely not going to have the same impact as that. But there may be even other animals. Maybe you’ve been in gun shops that have cats or gun shops that have other mascot type animals. Now I know a lot of the gun shops have stuffed animals, but that’s a whole other story. So, if any of you have any ideas for great gun shop animals, make sure you send a note to Ask Evan. Send me an email with your suggestions for great gun shop animals, as we try to help the marketing of gun shops in America. Hey, why not? Why not? Gun Lawyer does a lot of things. Why not do that? So, there you go, folks. And if you’re ever in Maine, make sure you stop by at A&G Shooting and say hello to Kade, that cute calf there and you can check out that that article on Fox News.

Evan Nappen 08:36
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I do get a lot of great letters, and I really do enjoy receiving letters from my listeners. This is a letter from Chris, and Chris says, regarding PTC question. Is it legal to have your gun mounted on the side of the center console with a magnetic gun holder that covers the trigger and is loaded rather than holstered on your person while you are in the vehicle driving directly next to it? As you know, it is very uncomfortable as it is jabbing your side. By the way, I love your book and podcasts. Thanks for your dedication!

Evan Nappen 09:23
So, can you have a magnetically attached gun? Can you have any of those holsters or gun holding devices that will position a gun on the steering column or under the dash? There are many different ways to do that. But under New Jersey gun law, can you have such a thing? Unfortunately, the answer is no you cannot. It has to be concealed on your person. So, you cannot have any of these vehicle gun mounts of any type. Your gun needs to be loaded and concealed on your person. You’re allowed to have your handgun, as long as you have a carry permit, you can have it concealed and loaded on your person in your vehicle. But you cannot utilize those types of mounts or devices or magnets in New Jersey, for that kind of carry. Do not keep your gun in the glove box or in the center console. Things like that are all a violation of New Jersey’s so-called safe carry law. Improper carry is a felony level offense, and you’d be looking at a year and a half in State Prison just on that offense alone.

Evan Nappen 10:57
Now part of the Carry Killer Bill had a ban on carrying a loaded gun in your vehicle, even concealed and loaded on your person with a permit. That part of the law we call the “Carjacker Protection” law. Luckily, thanks to the great efforts of the state Association in challenging the “sensitive places” and the other prohibitions found in the Carry Killer law, which was stayed by Judge Bumb in federal court, and it has remained stayed. So, you can carry your loaded handgun properly holstered and concealed on your person in your vehicle. You can do that now. But outside of it loaded and concealed in the proper holster on your person, you cannot have that loaded gun in your vehicle. You also can transport your gun cased and unloaded, particularly if you are within the exemptions, like going to the target range, or going between your home and your place of business, assuming you own the place of business. Or you’re going hunting, and it’s legal for hunting and that kind of thing.

Evan Nappen 12:31
But keep in mind, even if you’re just transporting your gun and not carrying it loaded, concealed on your person, that if you are doing that and you’re stopped by the police, you still have a Duty to Disclose, if you have a permit to carry a handgun. Even if you’re just transporting an unloaded handgun, you still have to disclose to the officer right away that you have a gun and show them your permit to carry. Now, if you don’t have a carry permit, you do not have an obligation to disclose. As a matter of fact, if you’re carrying your gun illegally, you don’t have to tell the officer that you’re carrying your gun. But if you’re a permit holder, you’re required under the law, whether you’re transporting it loaded, concealed on your person or unloaded and transporting it pursuant to exemption, you still have that obligation under Duty to Disclose to tell the officer and to produce your permit. If you cannot produce your permit that is an offense in Jersey as well, and you’re looking at six months in the county jail max for failing to have your permit on you. So, make sure you have your permit to carry and make sure you disclose. And Chris, I’m
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sorry to say, but at this time, we can’t have vehicle mounted firearms or anything like that in Jersey. Maybe one day we’ll get rid of the entire law, and we’ll be able to, but we can’t for now.

Evan Nappen 14:12
At least we can carry loaded and concealed on our person in a vehicle and that is due to the state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs that is battling valiantly against the horrible gun laws in Jersey, including the so-called assault firearm ban, you know, the modern sporting rifle ban, the so-called large capacity magazine ban, which is really the standard capacity magazine ban, and the Carry Killer law. They are at the forefront in the litigation. They also have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, keeping an eye on those scoundrels and their shenanigans. When you’re a member of the Association, you’re going to be aware of this, and you’re going to be able to make your voice heard through their email programs where you can very quickly let the legislators in your district know your view on any given gun bill. You also get a great newsletter. One of the best gun newsletters in the state of New Jersey is from the state Association. That’s the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They’re the umbrella group of gun clubs throughout the state, but you can be, and you should be an individual member. Go to ANJRPC.org. Make sure you join as a member. It’s important that you do this. It’s the least you can do fighting for our rights. It makes you part of the solution as we continue the fight for firearm freedom.

Evan Nappen 16:05
I also want to mention our good friends at WeShoot. Now currently, WeShoot does not have a cow at their gun shop in Lakewood, New Jersey. However, WeShoot has so many other great things that you need to visit them. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, and they are premiere. They have some of the finest training, phenomenal facilities, and they treat everybody like family. And that is no exaggeration. If you mention my name, you’re going to be treated like royalty. So, get over to WeShoot and take advantage of that wonderful resource. They’re easy to get to, right off the Parkway there in Central Jersey. It’s a great resource and a fantastic range. You can get your CCARE certification so you can get your carry permit. They’ll help you do that. They have other great training and all kinds of fun events. You can rent guns there, and you can have a great day of it. Just go to weshootusa.com and check it out. You’ll see what I’m talking about. My friends, my family, they’ve all gone there. They say hey, Evan, you weren’t kidding, and I’m not. WeShoot is great. I would not have them as a sponsor of this show if I didn’t believe in them. So, go to weshootusa.com. Check out their website, beautiful photography, professional photography, and they are just first rate. weshootusa.com Check out the facility and this resource that is there for you.

Evan Nappen 17:57
Also, let me mention my book. Yes, my pride and joy. The New Jersey Gun Law book. Surprisingly, it’s titled New Jersey Gun Law. If you don’t have a copy, you need a copy. And that’s no exaggeration. This book is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. I know for a fact the State Police Firearms Unit uses it. Many, many police agencies, judges, lawyers, and most importantly 1000s of gun owners throughout New Jersey, the folks that I actually wrote it for. I tried to make it as user friendly as possible. It’s 120 important New Jersey gun law topics all in a question and answer format so it’s easy to understand. When I reference the law and I explained it, you can read the law for yourself in the back of the book. Most importantly, right on the cover is that QR code. Just scan it, and you can subscribe, for free, yes
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100% for free, to the subscriber database. You can then access the archives or an any updates that I’ve done, and you’re going to get email alerts from me whenever there are any new laws. Or if I happen to sight a cow at any gun shop, I will immediately let you know. So, make sure you get a copy of New Jersey Gun Law. Have it by your side and never lend it to anyone. Because if you lend it, you’ll never get it back. But it does make a great gift. To get your copy, go to EvanNappen.com. That’s right. It’s my name and a .com I’m part of the .com. How amazing is that? EvanNappen.com When you go to my website, you’ll see that orange cover book. Just click it, and you’ll have your copy in a matter of days.

Evan Nappen 20:02
Hey, so, I have another letter here, and this is from Craig. Craig asks a question regarding carrying on your property. He says, I’ve seen news reports of criminals seeing someone working in their yard, mowing their lawn, or working in the garden and use that as an opportunity to assault them so they can enter their house and rob them. The criminals probably assume the door is unlocked, and this is a perfect opportunity for them to do their dastardly deeds. Boy, I don’t get to say the word dastardly too much these days. I like that, dastardly deeds. I saw one report that a lunatic murdered a woman as she was gardening, man, it’s dangerous gardening, and robbed her house. I have no permit to carry. Am I permitted to have my gun on me while working in my yard?

Evan Nappen 21:04
Well, Chris, the answer to that is yes. Now the reason it’s yes is that under New Jersey gun law, there is an exemption. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e., it says you can have a firearm in your home and on property that you own or possess. If you’re in your yard that you own, in your property, you can have your gun in your pocket loaded. You can have it in a holster or not in a holster. You can have it even open carry. It’s your land. In New Jersey, you’re exempt. Now, if you carry it open, don’t be surprised when some nosy neighbor calls the police on you. But you are legal because the exemption allows you to have a gun on your property, in your home, the curtilage around your property, which is the land around your property and any land that you own or possess. You can carry and have a firearm on your person. But do not leave your property with that gun on your person. Don’t step on the sidewalk with that gun on your person. Don’t go into the street with a gun on your person. Only on your property. You are legal under that exemption. So, you can protect yourself while gardening and anything else you might be doing in your yard on your property.

Evan Nappen 22:42
I have another letter here and this is from Bill. Bill says regarding Episode 182 – Inheritance. This is regarding the will portion of your podcast. I am married, and I have the standard will between husband and wife. My question is can I hand write an addendum to my will designating an heir and having it notarized or is a lawyer necessary? So, I guess what Bill means is, can he do an addendum where he leaves his guns specifically to somebody as I discussed on the prior show? Can he do that because he already has his will? By just putting this addendum so that that person will receive the guns and the remainder of the estate can go to his spouse. Here’s the bottom line. The answer is no. Don’t do that. That’s not at all advisable. When you add something to a will, the addition of a provision to a will is called a codicil, and a codicil needs to be done properly and correctly under the law. I’m not a big fan of codicils anyway. If you’re going to do a will and you want to make a change, just do a new will. Do a
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new complete will with the provision in it that you wish. If you insist on doing a codicil, it is possible. I would highly recommend when doing any kind of estate planning or will, that you do use an attorney. Use an attorney that understands wills so that it’s done properly. Because there can be some really quirky things with wills where they could be challenged or attempted to be invalidated. There are certain kinds of ancient ritualistic things with wills that need to be there and how it has to be done. Even the paper, it can’t be on like a letterhead or stationery. It has to be on just blank paper, and there’s all these things.

Evan Nappen 25:00
So, your best bet is to go to an attorney to get your will done. Now there are, of course, programs out there that can be quite good, like WillMaker and such, where you can do your own will. They’re not bad. You could still have that reviewed by an attorney. Some of those programs may even have the ability for you to do a codicil, if you really want to do that. But, again, my suggestion is, do your will and do it right. Do it with a professional, and make sure the provisions are in there, as we’ve discussed. Look, if you’re working on a will and if your lawyer has a question about a gun provision, give me a call. I’m not kidding. I’m always happy to help. I’ll be happy to explain to your lawyer who is doing your will what needs to get done with the firearm provision. It’s not complicated. Just make it a specific bequest so it’s covered. Then the rest can be distributed however you see fit. If you’re not going to leave to a specific heir, it being your guns, but rather you want your spouse to just get your guns, you don’t have to say guns at all in the will. You can just leave the estate in its totality to the heir, and they get everything including the guns with no paper, no registration, no license. We went into great detail about why that’s important in the prior show, but I’m glad, Bill, that you’re thinking about this. I’m glad that you’re taking steps here to do an estate plan and to leave your legacy. But do it right. Do it professionally. So that there’s no challenge or invalidation of your last will and testament.

Evan Nappen 27:09
Let’s talk about this week’s GOFU. The ever popular GOFU segment, which is, of course, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. Now why do we talk about GOFUs? Well, that’s because GOFUs are very expensive lessons that somebody else has learned that you get to learn for free by listening to Gun Lawyer. These are real things that I encounter in my practice of gun law all the time. I want you to know about these things so that you don’t repeat the same GOFU that this poor soul had to go through. You can avoid it. This week’s GOFU may seem basic, but, folks, I see it all the time. This GOFU concerns if you have anything that is unlawful, or arguably unlawful, you better just figure that at some point it may come to the attention of the authorities. Now, for some reason, sometimes folks, they push the envelope on firearms. Maybe out of ignorance or maybe just out of running out of, you know, fucks to give. I get it. If you are in that category where you have something that may be questionable, the problem in New Jersey is that guns frequently end up coming into the possession of the state by all kinds of seizure methods.

Evan Nappen 29:02
For example, you may think, hey, I’m not going to do anything wrong, so I’m not worried. They’re never going to catch me, blah, blah, blah. Now look, you shouldn’t have this thing in the first place. You really shouldn’t. You’re really taking a risk, but what you may not realize is what that risk entails? Well, if somebody decides to swat you with a red flag, even though they’re absolutely full of crap with what they
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alleged against you, your guns are getting seized. Then we have to fight to get them back. If that item gets found, now not only do you have this BS red flag that we have to fight, but now you’re facing a serious criminal charge. Or if you have some spat with your girlfriend or your wife or a household member and before you know it, there’s an allegation of domestic violence with some initial TRO filed against you. You know, it’s almost as easy as getting a deli ticket at Wawa for a sandwich. Well, next thing you know, your guns are seized and guess what? They’re going to be looked at. If you have a gun or magazine there that’s a problem, not only do you have to deal with trying to save your gun rights and deal with that legal issue that just started, but now you’ve got the criminal issue on you as well.

Evan Nappen 30:26
You may face where somebody in your household, your kid, or somebody else residing there, makes a stupid statement to a doctor, to a nurse, to a health professional, or to a teacher, that they want to harm themselves or others. And I mean, just a stupid statement like we’ve talked about in the past. You know, I was so mad, I could have killed that guy. Or I was so upset, I could have killed myself. Ehhhhhhhn! Duty to Warn. Next thing you know, not only are they taking that person’s gun, but they’re taking all the guns in the household. If you have a gun that’s a problem, guess what? Now you’ve got a really big problem, even though you were just an innocent third party on the gun seizure. I can’t emphasize it enough, folks. I get case after case because of this problem. Beware. You’re not safe. It’s not going to remain hidden or secret. Or why would your guns ever get taken kind of a mentality. Don’t take the risk. Don’t take the chance. Make sure your guns and magazines are legal. Make sure your possession is lawful. If you aren’t sure, then send a letter to Evan@gun.lawyer. Or give me a call. Find out and Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:12
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.
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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E183_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 182-Everything You’re Dying to Know About Inheriting GunsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 182SUMMARY KEYWORDS

guns, firearms, new jersey, gun, law, registration, jersey, inherited, federal law, son, state, lawyer, heir, evan, question, second amendment rights, inheritance, doctor, talk, license

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you know, I get a lot of folks asking about inheriting guns and issues come up with gun inheritance. It’s an important topic because gun inheritance is actually one of the great loopholes that exist in both state and federal law. Under inheritance laws, even in the DPRNJ, you know, the Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey, inheritance occurs, and firearms are transferred to the heirs or beneficiaries without any paperwork. No registration. No license is required. No dealer transfer is required. The firearms just pass to the heirs. So, this is really great to know, and you can see the law itself under N.J.S. 2C:58-3j. And what happens is, the inheritance ends the paper trail, if any existed of the guns. To inherit firearms, the person who is leaving their guns in a will or even by intestacy, for that matter, which means without a will, does not have to mention each specific gun. You don’t have to list them individually. The only time you would want to list a specific gun is if for some reason you wanted a specific gun to go to somebody specifically upon your demise. But you don’t need to do that. You simply say in your will the person you want to receive all your guns. You simply say that in your will, and the guns will pass with no fuss, no muss. No paperwork, no problem. This is really good. Many people have inherited guns, and they wonder, hey, do I have to register them? No, you don’t. If you inherited the gun, it’s yours. You don’t register it. No need to. You just keep it. If you inherit firearms, even outside New Jersey, under federal law, the guns pass to you without the need of a dealer. Even though you’re not a resident of the state of the deceased. You don’t have to be under federal law. You still can take the guns and bring them home to Jersey. No registration is needed for the inheritance of firearms. So, the inheritance law is very useful.

Evan Nappen 03:20
You should think about your firearms in your estate planning. Let me give you a good example of one of the issues that we have run into so you could avoid this, should you want to estate plan properly to preserve your legacy. So, you want to leave your guns, first of all, to somebody who’s going to appreciate your guns. Keep that in mind. You want that person to definitely be somebody who’s into guns, and when they receive those guns, they’re going to appreciate it greatly that all the guns, handguns, rifles, shotguns, transferred without any problem. No recordation of the transfer takes place. No registration of the transfer takes place. No dealer transfer is required for the transfer to take place. It avoids all of that. But you want to make sure it’s going to the person that appreciates it and who you want to have it.

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Evan Nappen 04:35
So, let me talk about a typical situation that often exists. Now, I don’t mean to be sexist here, but let’s just say in this example that there’s a husband, a wife, and a son. Now normally wills between married people are set up such that whoever dies first, the husband or the wife, the other spouse, the surviving spouse, receives the entire estate. They’re known as the residual beneficiary, or they just get everything that was left. Each person does a will leaving the other spouse the entire estate. And that’s pretty standard for married couples. But let’s say in this situation, the father and son loved guns, and shooting, and hunting and gun collecting. They just were, you know, gun buddies together. They lived and loved it, but mom could care less. She was glad that father and son had a good time with guns, but she doesn’t really have an interest in the firearms. She wants the son to get the guns, too.

Evan Nappen 05:56
But what happens is, the two spouses don’t estate plan properly. They never say in the will that the firearms shall pass to the son, and the remainder of the estate goes to the other living spouse. But they don’t say that in their wills. So, what happens is, statistically, the husband is the first to die. Let’s just say in this case, he dies first. Now, everyone knows that the son was supposed to get dad’s guns and mom even wants the son to get dad’s guns. But because dad didn’t have a will that said the son gets the guns, all of dad’s guns are transferred to mom, with no paper, no registration, no problem. Now for mom to give the guns to the son, he is going to have to get pistol purchase permits on every handgun. He needs a (New Jersey) Firearms Purchaser ID Card and a certificate of eligibility. The son is going to have to transfer all the firearms with paper. Get all the licenses and go through all that. Whereas, if they had simply said in the dad’s will that the son gets all the firearms, Dad would not have to list them, the remainder of the estate goes to the other spouse, and all the firearms would transfer instantly to the son with no registration, no transfer, no permits, no license, nothing. It ends the paper trail, and the son gets the legacy of the father’s guns. So, you want to estate plan properly and think about these things. If you do plan properly, you can avoid the nightmare of paperwork and registration and government interference with your Second Amendment rights and that of your son’s. It is important to keep this in mind. Even if the son lives in another state, the firearms will transfer under Jersey law and federal law with no paperwork. No dealer is required. Nothing like that. To the son, even in another state, under both the federal law and New Jersey state law.

Evan Nappen 08:33
Now there are certain firearms that cannot be inherited. Those firearms are guns that are deemed to be intrinsically evil for some reason by our dumb ass politicians. This includes so-called “assault firearms”, you know, modern sporting rifles, of course, or 50 caliber BMG rifles. The big 50 rifles that all the media hypes about. So, if you happen to have a registered assault firearm or a registered 50 Cal helicopter shooting gun, you know, one of those big guns that shoot down helicopters, one of those guns. Those guns cannot be inherited – registered assault firearms and registered 50 BMG rifles. They can’t be inherited. They end up going to be sold through the police, etc. It’s a whole big mess. The state has to get rid of them, and they can’t be inherited. So, registered guns of that type can’t be inherited.

Evan Nappen 09:53
However, unregistered guns of that type can be inherited. Now you might say, well, wait a minute, if they’re prohibited, how can I leave them to an heir so they can get them as unregistered guns? Well,

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that’s because if you’re otherwise prohibited assault firearm or 50 BMG is not registered but is stored outside of New Jersey, which is lawful to do, then the heir can take possession outside of New Jersey, without any paperwork, any fuss, no muss, no problem. That’s how the inheritance of those firearms can lawfully take place. So, any of those kinds of firearms should be stored, if possible, outside New Jersey. Interestingly, just so you know, Pennsylvania has a specific exemption for possession of firearms in a vacation home. That’s in Pennsylvania laws, an exemption. So, if you store your guns at your vacation home, for example, in Pennsylvania, then it can be inherited. Now, of course, the heir can’t bring the prohibited guns back to New Jersey, but it still is an ability to inherit.

Evan Nappen 11:26
Many of those firearms are rather expensive. I mean, you know, to get into a 50 BMG, semi-auto Barrett with the accoutrements, you’re probably talking 10 grand. So, these are expensive heirlooms, and this is a way to allow them to continue to be possessed for generations. This is important for you to know. It’s really good to plan in this way. There’s no requirement, as I said, for registration, nor should anyone who’s inheriting register them. If you look at registration in Jersey, the form for registration is the “voluntary form of registration”. What do you think the first word of it is – voluntary. Since it’s voluntary, don’t volunteer. No need to do it. So, there’s no need to do that. Why put yourself on a list so that guns can be readily confiscated when they come around to do that? Other places have already followed the path of legislation, from registration to confiscation. Of course, the fourth leg hasn’t dropped yet, but history shows it repeating all the time. And that’s extermination. Because every major holocaust that ever occurred has been preceded by those four steps. So, we want to avoid registration at all times when we can. Registration is simply an expedient for Government confiscation or worse, and inheritance is a great way to avoid that.

Evan Nappen 13:26
It does open up for the individual who has guns to possess guns that were inherited, and they can use them in the same way they use any other gun. You transport them under the same exemptions. You can go to the range. You can go hunting with it. It’s lawfully possessed. It’s the same as if it’s a gun that you acquired with paper, so to speak. Same idea, not a problem. Possession in your home is an exemption even if you inherited it. The same exemptions apply. (N.J.S. 2C:39-6e. and f.) If you have them possessed in your home, your possession is legal, and you can operate under the exemptions accordingly. You can also carry a gun that you’ve inherited, but I wouldn’t suggest that. Because to carry and inherited gun, you’re going to have to list the gun and its serial number. Now you’re going to de facto register a gun that’s unregistered. Why bother? I wouldn’t do that. Although it would be legal to do that. But why put that gun on any list anywhere? So, don’t do that. But keep this in mind. It is something that can be very helpful to preserve your legacy and be important to your heirs. Make sure that you leave them to folks that appreciate it.

Evan Nappen 14:55
Let me just say to you that I appreciate guns very much. If you want to leave your guns to me, feel free. Just kidding about that. Actually, you can leave guns to non-family members, like your best friend. If you want to leave them a gun or all your guns or whatever, you can do that and guess what? They transfer to your friend with no problem either. No paperwork, no nothing if you’re an heir. An heir doesn’t have to be a family member. So, that’s true. Now, if somebody is disqualified, like they’re a

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convicted felon, then they cannot inherit the guns. They would have to be held by the police and get sold. So, you don’t want to leave your firearms to somebody who might be a prohibited person. They don’t have to have a license, but they can’t be somebody who would be prohibited from possession. But that would be the limit on it.

Evan Nappen 15:49
I am very proud to say that one of the sponsors of our show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, is currently engaged in major litigation defending our rights. They are fighting, as we speak, to overturn the assault firearm ban and the large capacity magazine ban, which is really the standard capacity magazine ban. They’re looking to get those tossed as unconstitutional. I am cautiously optimistic given the power of the Supreme Court Bruen decision by St. Thomas. They’re just great, and they’re fighting this out as we speak. Plus, they keep challenging the carry killer bill, all the sensitive places, and all the other ridiculous crap that Murphy laid on us in their hissy fit after the Bruen decision. Plus, the Association is in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist, keeping an eye on the scoundrels and what they’re trying to do to take in our rights. So that you’ll be aware and can help fight. They send out email alerts, and you’re able to play a role there and help fight this attack on our rights. You also get a great newsletter. Look, you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, ANJRPC.org. Go there and join the group. It’s the top gun rights group in New Jersey, and I’m so proud to have them as a sponsor. There is a big ad for them right on the back of my book, and you see the big ad there for a reason. They are the group that you need to belong to. Be part of the solution by joining ANJRPC.org.

Evan Nappen 17:44
Speaking of my book, I would like to shamelessly promote it right now. It’s the bible of New Jersey gun law, and it is surprisingly called New Jersey Gun Law. This book is over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. I wrote it to be user friendly. It is used by New Jersey State Police Firearms Division, even. I know that for a fact. It’s used by many, many police agencies, judges, and lawyers. But most importantly, it’s used by gun owners every day. And that’s who I really wrote it for, to help you navigate through the treacherous waters of New Jersey gun law and not become a victim. So, you can stay legal as our fight continues for freedom as we knock these laws out. Boy, that day is coming and is going to be joyful. I mean, look, we already got “shall issue” carry permits. Who would have thought that would happen and here we are. More and more freedom will be coming our way. But until that day, you have to stay legal. You don’t want to become the test case. You don’t want to become my next GOFU that I’m talking about. Right? So, get the book, New Jersey Gun Law. You can get it at EvanNappen.com. Go to my website, EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book there. Just click on it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. You’ll be glad that you got it. When you do get the book, scan the front cover QR code. It sends you right to my subscriber database and for free, you get to join for free. There’s no charge. You get to access all the archives of updates, and you’ll get email alerts from me if there are any law changes. This is my calling. I keep it current so that you know you have the current law at your fingertips to help guide you through what you need to know.

Evan Nappen 19:49
Let me also tell you about WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, New Jersey. They are a super range. I know you’ve heard me talk about them before. They really are a great place, and you will

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love it, too. WeShoot is a great resource there, right in Lakewood, right off the Parkway. You need a great place to shoot, and there’s your great place to shoot. What a team they have there. They will treat you like family. Just mention my name and fuhgeddaboudit. You’ll think you’re royalty. They have great trainers, and they can set you up for any of the courses you need, including your CCARE course to get your carry. They have all kinds of cool events, too. They run different kinds of shooting fun. They have gun rentals and a wonderful range. WeShoot is an excellent place to shoot, and we all need a place to shoot. You definitely want to go to WeShoot. So many folks have listened to me and gone there and become members. They tell me, Evan, you weren’t kidding. Oh no, I’m not. This is what I’m talking about. I won’t let anyone be a sponsor if I don’t believe in them. So, it’s absolute truth. WeShoot and our great Association are great institutions in Jersey, and they’re solidly 2A, 100%. WeShoot has got your back, and they will train you and properly equip you. Check out weshootusa.com. Beautiful photography. Great website. weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 21:35
So, I have a letter that I received from the Ask Evan letters, and I want to share this letter with you and discuss it. It’s from Mark. Mark says regarding a podcast question. Hi Evan. Thank you for all you do for the community. I’ve listened to your show for about three years. I love it. Gun Lawyer and GFH radio, which is Gun For Hire, my good friend, Anthony Colandro has a great podcast as well, are my Sunday morning grass mowing entertainment. Well, I’m glad that I entertain you when you mow your grass. In the winter, it’s Monday morning drive to work entertainment. Okay, cool. Anyway, I have a question for you that a friend asked. Before asking, I looked it up in my New Jersey Gun Law book, but couldn’t find the answer. Well, we’ll get to why you didn’t find the answer. But here’s what the question is. What does the state think about ADHD medicines like Adderall and Ritalin based medicines? How do they impact FID and, of course, PTC applications? In this case, they are only used for Attention Deficit purposes. Thank you, Mark. Then he said, last, but definitely not least, proud owner of a book I will reference for others but will not lend out, “New Jersey Gun Law” by Evan Nappen. Thank you, Mark.

Evan Nappen 23:11
I’m glad you protect your book. Because if you do lend it out, you’ll never get it back. So, definitely keep it safe. Now, this is an important question that Mark raises. What about Ritalin? Adderall? What about any medicines that are prescribed for a psychological condition? The problem is that New Jersey questions on the application, have you ever been treated or observed for any mental or psychiatric condition? And if you’re getting Ritalin or Adderall, I just combined the two, that’s funny. If you’re getting either of them or any other medications for a psychiatric purpose, even, you know, Xanax or Zoloft, or any of these other things, serotonin medication, that kind of thing, any of that, you have to answer yes to that question. Then you’re going to have to provide a doctor’s report or letter that says you’re safe for handling firearms. The problem is that some doctors are chicken shits, and they’re afraid to say, at least many of them are, they’re afraid to say that somebody’s good for guns, even though they know they are because they’re afraid of the liability. Yet to get your gun rights in Jersey, you can’t lie on the form, and you’re going to need to get a doctor’s report.

Evan Nappen 24:48
So, New Jersey creates a problem for those that seek psychiatric help of any type. We’re not even talking here about a mental health commitment, voluntary or involuntary, where you actually have to go

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to a mental health facility, even when you volunteer to go there. That’s a separate disqualifier, and the only way to cure that one is with a mental health expungement. But just getting treatment immediately threatens your gun rights and makes it harder for you to get a firearm license in New Jersey. New Jersey has done its best to actually discourage gun owners from getting psychiatric help. They create such a problem that believe me, I know many people who say, I’m not going to go even though they might be able to go and get help, because they know that if they do, it’s going to potentially jeopardize their Second Amendment rights. So, it has the reverse effect of actually discouraging individuals from getting help. Then what? They arguably can get worse. It is as stupid as stupid gets. Yet, that’s New Jersey, of course.

Evan Nappen 26:06
So, they put these things in the law, unbelievably well intentioned, but nonetheless, a terrible idea. Federal law doesn’t ask whether you have been treated or observed. Federal law doesn’t even count voluntary commitments, only an involuntary commitment is a disqualifier under federal law. But Jersey goes so far as to even ask about treatment. Have you ever been treated or observed etc, any mental or psychiatric? They just want to know that. They ask it, and you have to answer truthfully. If you don’t answer truthfully and they find out, then you can face a denial of your license for falsification and a criminal charge for falsification, which is felony level offense, where you can look at serious state prison time for lying on the form. They will do that. They will criminally charge you with falsification. We get a lot of those falsification cases, even though the person didn’t intentionally do it. They forgot about it, or they didn’t understand the question. Next thing you know they’re facing felony level, indictable offenses for falsifying the application. So, the consequences can be serious if you don’t give the right answer. Yet, when you do, you’re put in a position of having to prove that you’re safe for firearms, even though the psychiatric treatment had nothing to do with you being a danger. It doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter. You still have to answer truthfully and get a doctor or psychiatrist to say that you are okay for guns. This is a very severe discouragement. I’ll be kind and call it a discouragement that is put into the gun laws in Jersey, and it is something that I’m afraid will probably catch on in other states. Jersey goes further than any other state that I know of. It’s intrusive madness into your private medical records and questioning about it. But nonetheless, there it is. I even know of a case where an individual, who knew that this was a problem, purposely went to a doctor for some psychological help. They weren’t a danger to anybody. They paid cash figuring well, I’ll pay cash. I won’t go through my insurance, and I can keep it private. Right? But then, unfortunately, foolishly got a prescription filled through their insurance that the doctor prescribed and that ended up coming to light. This person faced serious problems on a gun license denial and the potential criminal charges, etc. So, the thing is, you have to tell the truth on the application at all times. You just have to. If you’re prescribed these medications, you’re going to have to say so, and you’re going to have to overcome it by way of the mechanism in the law, which is not cheap to do. You know, these doctors, if we can even find one willing to say you’re okay, are not cheap. And yet, that’s what Jersey imposes for you to exercise your Second Amendment rights. So, beware of that. Mark, thanks for the great question. It’s something that we encounter a lot in the practice of New Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 30:41
So, what is this week’s GOFU? This week’s Gun Owner Fuck Up. Let me tell you, folks, what I’m going to explain to you today is something that I see frequently, and it is a GOFU that can become an

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expensive lesson for the person who commits it. But because you’re listening today, you can learn it on the cheap. That’s why we talk about the GOFU. So, here’s the scenario. Here’s how it goes. In the scenario I want to talk about today, there’s a person who has a child in school. The child in school does something stupid, you know, like draws a picture of a gun, or makes a list of people he wants to kill, even though he’s not going to do it, but it doesn’t matter. You know, kids do stupid stuff. That’s why they’re kids. They do stupid things because they are kids. It doesn’t mean they are a danger. It doesn’t mean they’re a problem. They’re just, you know, acting out and being dumb. And lo and behold, something like this comes to the attention of the school, and they overreact accordingly. The next thing, you know, well, they want your kid taken away and evaluated to make sure he’s not a danger and all that happy stuff. And what happens is, often, the kid is fine. They evaluate them, and it’s not a problem. It’s not dangerous. Not an issue, no problem.

Evan Nappen 32:28
But lo and behold, you know what happens. They come and take mom’s and dad’s guns. Now that particular GOFU here is a little twist on that. Because the GOFU here is the child was found to be fine. However, the police went to the parents and said, look, would you just surrender your guns right now? Because it’ll be better for you if you do. I’m not kidding. Better for you if you surrender your guns. Oh, really? Really? Let me make something clear, folks. The GOFU is, it’s never better for you if you surrender your guns, okay? No, no. You need due process. If they want to take your guns, then do it by way of the mechanisms if they can get it done under the mechanisms in law. So, if they’re going to get a TERPO, a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order, well, they better meet the standard in law to do it. The fact is that the child is fine and not a danger. So, what’s the basis for the TERPO? Or if they’re going to take them over domestic violence? Well, there’s no violence. There’s no domestic violence. So, that doesn’t kick in. What is their basis in terms of the due process mechanism?

Evan Nappen 34:05
But if you just surrender your guns because the police ask you to, and they claim it’s better for you if you do it? Well, I’ll tell you right now, what you’ve done is you surrendered your guns, and now there’s no formal mechanism to even get them back. Because even if they got the TERPO, we can go to court. There is a procedure. There’s the later due process. It should be up front, but it isn’t. At least there’s something we can get in there, and we can get your gun rights and your guns back. But if you just give them up, well, guess what? There’s no statutory mechanism for dealing with that. There’s no law in Jersey that says anyone who surrenders guns can seek their return by way of N.J.S. blah, blah, blah. No, it doesn’t exist. So, now what? Now you’re at the mercy of the police and the prosecutor to try to get them back. You may be forced into what’s called a replevin action, a civil action for return of property. Or trying to get something with the prosecutor to agree, and it’s all informal. There are no time limits, and there’s no due process.

Evan Nappen 34:10
So, the GOFU is giving up your guns because the police ask you to voluntarily surrender them. If the police ask you to voluntarily surrender your guns, what you say is the following. I’m going to call my lawyer, and my lawyer will call you. Always ask for your attorney. Have me, even, or whoever your attorney is, get in between you and the Government every time. Then you won’t make this GOFU. You let me talk to them, and we’re going to find out what’s what. We’re going to deal with that situation, and

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if there’s no justification, legally, to take your guns, then your guns aren’t going to be taken. This is an important lesson. Any time the Government wants to get involved in your life, you say, I want my attorney. I’ll have my attorney call you. You put your attorney between you and the Government every time. No matter what it is. Whether it’s guns or something else, get a lawyer and have them between you and the Government.

Evan Nappen 36:41
Remember, anything you say, can and will be used against you. There are all kinds of laws that you have no clue about. The one thing you can be certain of is that you have a right to ask for your lawyer. And that’s what you want to do. So that you can get the good advice and have the lawyer talk for you. If I’m speaking for you, I cannot become a witness against you. I can’t incriminate you. I’m your counsel. What we talk about is confidential. Then I can talk to the Government, and you stay protected. That is what smart people do. And I want you to be smart. Always ask for your lawyer. Put your lawyer between you and the Government. When any kind of consent is sought, particularly when any kind of consent is sought for you to waive your rights, to give up your rights, to give up your property by consent, then you want a lawyer to advise you.

Evan Nappen 37:52
Now, if the police come to your house with a warrant or they have court papers, they have process where they’re authorized to take your guns, well, that’s not consent. They’re just going to take your guns. You don’t resist it. You let them do their job. They have the court process, the due process, the legal authority. But if you’re consenting, then you’re giving up any of those rights that you may have otherwise had. Why are you giving up those rights? If you give up those rights, you gain nothing. Zero. You’ve gained nothing and lost a lot. So, why are you making a decision that gets you zero gain? Don’t do it! Ask for your lawyer. Then together through discussions with your attorney, you can make the right decision. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 39:02
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E182_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 181- A Sensitive Place LoopholeAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 181SUMMARY KEYWORDS

places, loophole, new jersey, prohibited, gun, law, gun owners, individuals, permits, sensitive, switchblade, state, issued, carry, nfa, expungement, person, firearm, biden, rule

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I have a really interesting loophole to share with you today, and I love loopholes. Loopholes are simply freedom finding the way. You see loopholes end up carving out freedom. Often, they can carve it out so much that they can give us back what the loophole was getting us around. I’ve seen that occur in a number of instances. One example for you to consider is the National Firearms Act requirements. It used to be when you buy a machine gun, silencer, suppressor, etc, or destructive device, you would do your NFA paperwork, and it would be the registration. You’d be looking to get your tax stamp and all. One of the requirements was that the chief law enforcement officer had to sign off on your paperwork. If the chief law enforcement officer didn’t want to sign it, for any reason, you know, maybe they just didn’t think anyone should have one of these things, they just don’t want to sign it, there was nothing you could do to force them to sign it.

Evan Nappen 01:34
And what happened was, it was figured out that if you were purchasing or acquiring NFA and you did it by way of a Trust, there was no CLE, Chief Law Enforcement, officer sign off for a Trust. So, what got created became known as the NFA Trust. Individuals would be acquiring NFA using a Trust, which is also good for estate planning, so that individuals could inherit your NFA item. But what the Trust did was make it so there was no more CLE involvement in it. No Chief Law Enforcement officer’s involvement. That way you couldn’t be stopped, and it was extremely successful and effective. So about 10,000 NFA Trusts later, ATF decided to finally get rid of that rule which they wouldn’t have gotten rid of before. They changed it so that when you get an anything NFA, the chief law enforcement officer is given notice, but their sign off is not required. So, we’ve actually created and gotten rid of that requirement, gaining freedom for NFA. Of course, in New Jersey, you’re not able to buy anything NFA because New Jersey prohibits machine guns, suppressors and destructive devices. But in other places, in Free America, where you can have those things, the loophole ended up killing the sign off requirement that often could be troublesome for folks.

Evan Nappen 03:25
We also have seen loopholes, even in the development of technology, overcome various bans and prohibitions on things. A good one is switchblade knives. Switchblades were prohibited in the 1950s by way of a Federal law. But they’re not prohibited from possession under Federal law. They are prohibited from interstate transport. So, if you live in a state where they were legal, you could have

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them. There was a workaround for federal laws so that bona fide dealers could sell them. But if you lived in a state where they were prohibited, you couldn’t own them. The advent of the assisted-opening knife really went far to fighting the anti-switchblade laws. An assisted opener opens by way of a spring assist. So, when you push the tab on the blade, the knife opens about 30% manually, and then the rest of the way opens automatically. It almost appears to be a switchblade, but it’s not a switchblade because it doesn’t have a button or device in the handle. It’s integral to the spring mechanism, and there is no button or device in the handle. There was an explosion of assisted openers being sold. You can even buy them in Walmart for that matter.

Evan Nappen 04:54
Because they became so accepted, understood, and recognized, when the fight came to repeal the anti-switchblade laws, people were more understanding about it, having seen the utilitarian value of a one-hand opening knife. These laws were able to drop like flies beginning in 2010, in New Hampshire, where I helped spearhead the first repeal, modern age repeal, of state switchblade laws. Since then, I’ve lost track of how many states, actually 26, 27, 28, 29, I lost track of how many have repealed their switchblade laws with the good work of Knife Rights. (https://kniferights.org) Given other states that didn’t have prohibitions, there’s only a handful that still prohibit switchblades. Of course, New Jersey still does, but most states don’t. Now there are ways in New Jersey to lawfully own a switchblade, and I’ve won cases on that. But generally, don’t possess them. They are known as per se weapons. There is an exemption in the statute, and if you can meet it, then there’s a way to lawfully have one. But this show isn’t about switchblades. It’s more about the impact of loopholes.

Evan Nappen 06:12
I have a really interesting loophole to share with you that has to do with the “sensitive places” that were put into Murphy’s Carry Killer law. You may recall the Carry Killer law that was passed in response to the Bruen decision. The Bruen decision removed “justifiable need” from carry permits and basically mandated that they be essentially “shall issue”. So, New Jersey now had to issue carry permits, and they only want to do that kicking and screaming. Because of that, they figured, well, we can’t stop permits being issued, so let’s see how dramatically and drastically we can limit the utilitarian value by creating 25 “sensitive places” and all these restrictions. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs then litigated. They are at the forefront of the litigation and were able to knock out a number of those provisions. It is currently on appeal, and the Appellate Court reinstituted temporarily some of the enjoined provisions. We’re still in a big fight, and hopefully, we’re going to wipe out most of these. But in the time being, there’s still a number of the sensitive places that we have to suffer under.

Evan Nappen 07:23
However, I found a very interesting loophole that I want to share with you regarding “sensitive places”. Now, the sensitive places restrictions are found in New Jersey law under N.J.S. 2C:58-4.6. Under that first subsection, it lists all the places that we’ve discussed in detail in other shows, and they can become tricky and troublesome for folks. What brought this to my attention were individuals that wanted to protect their house of worship. Now, houses of worship themselves are not sensitive places. There is no prohibition on carrying your handgun, properly concealed, loaded with a carry permit, in a house of worship. They are public places, and they are considered private property. But public places that are private property and that are open to the public, are currently not prohibited under the sensitive places

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restrictions. So, there’s no specific house of worship prohibition. The public place, if it’s open to the public, has been enjoined, as well. The half of it that applies to places open to the public. Now, if it’s private property not open to the public, like your friend’s house, for example, then you have to get consent before you go there carrying your gun. But if it’s open to the public, you don’t.

Evan Nappen 09:11
It looks pretty good on its face for houses of worship to be able to have individuals carrying and being able to protect their congregation and folks that go there. The problem is that many of these religious places have schools. They may have various religious classes, schools, nursery schools, even daycare centers, summer camps, etc. that are on the property that are separate, sensitive places. So how can these places protect themselves? In answering that question, I realized there is a broader application for this loophole. Let’s talk about the loophole itself. You can find it, and you can read it for yourself, under N.J.SS. 2C:58-4.6 small letter e., as in Evan. If you go to that subsection, it reads as follows. “Nothing in this act shall be construed to prohibit the holder of a valid and lawfully issued permit under N.J.S. 2C:58-4 who is lawfully authorized to provide security at a place enumerated in subsection a. of this section,” which are the sensitive places, “from carrying a firearm, openly or concealed, provided that the authorization is set forth in writing, and only to the extent permitted by the entity responsible for security at the place in question.”

Evan Nappen 11:01
So, just focusing for a moment on houses of worship. If they want to have a security team or individual folks that belong to that particular religious institution, if they want to have those folks carrying to protect their people, they simply need to have the entity responsible for security at the place, which could be the person who’s in charge of the church, synagogue, or mosque, or the person who owns the place or the entity that does, whoever that entity is who’s responsible for security, put it in writing, authorizing those persons with carry licenses. Then those persons are able to carry openly or concealed under this statute and provide security. They’re able to go into the sensitive places, which include the schools, camps, nursery schools, etc, that are part of that facility. You can see that exemption is really great because our religious institutions need to protect themselves. Especially in the face of the various terrorist acts that take place against Jews, and against Christians and against Muslims, as we see happening. You can take advantage of this exemption in your own religious institution.

Evan Nappen 12:38
But beyond that, what makes this really interesting is it applies to any sensitive place where the entity responsible for security sets forth in writing the ability for that security to be provided. And this got me thinking. So, if a sensitive place decides via their entity responsible for security to put up a sign, for example, in writing, because the sign is in writing, it’s written, a written sign, saying that anybody who has a SORA (Security Officers Registration Act) card and a carry permit, because the SORA card is how you lawfully provide security in New Jersey, is authorized to carry. Then that person would be able to provide security. They could say provide security while in attendance here for free to the institution. They could say concealed on their person. Therefore, they could then allow concealed carry, even at a sensitive place like a bar, or a restaurant that serves alcohol, or an entertainment venue, or any of the sensitive places. Such written authorization would cover it under that section.

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Evan Nappen 14:21
When you look at the SORA law, which is the registration requirement for security officers, under New Jersey Code Title 45:19A-4 and you go to 4.a., it reads, “No person shall be employed as, or perform the functions and activities of, a security officer unless that person is registered with the Superintendent as required in this section.” So, what you need to get is a SORA card. And look, you don’t have to be employed to provide services. You’re only going to be employed if you’re getting paid for it, but you’re not going to get paid for it in terms of this exemption, particularly when you’re doing it to help out your church, or your synagogue, or mosque. And even these other places that will allow an individual to provide security for free, they’re providing security still, while attending or being in that particular area. Then if they have in writing the ability to do it and if there’s SORA, they can provide security as permitted here. They have their carry permit, and they have to stick within the dictates of that sign. Also, you could get individual permission in writing, if you wish, from places you might regularly go to, if you have a SORA card and a carry permit. So, you know, the ranges will do SORA training, and you can get SORA training at WeShoot, the great range in Lakewood. I know many other facilities offer this sort of training, and you get your SORA card. And if this is utilized by folks, it can maximize the ability to carry. Actually, if the signs are done properly, according to the statute, put in writing to say exactly what is being permitted and how it’s done, then those signs could counter the signs Murphy and company are giving away for free, saying “no guns allowed in this place”.

Evan Nappen 16:44
Now, as we talked about on other shows, the signs saying, “no guns in this place”, create a danger to those places, because they’re saying these places are unprotected. They don’t want guns there. Because, you know, criminals ignore the signs. So, they are a vulnerable place where you have a greater chance of injury because they prohibit guns. Whereas any of these other places that want to embrace this, where they’re encouraging individuals who are licensed and legal to carry, even in a sensitive place where they may be located and be the entity in charge of security for that, they’re going to be safer those places. They’re actually going to increase safety. They’re going to send a message to the bad guys that this is not the place to commit your crimes, to commit violence, because individuals here are providing armed security. You don’t even know who they are, but they’re there. So, think about which place is safer and where you’re going to be more protected. Think about the message that can send. This is an interesting loophole that individuals should think about taking advantage of if they’re in a position to do so.

Evan Nappen 17:55
I was talking about the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is, of course, a great sponsor of our show, and we appreciate that. They’re the ones litigating over sensitive places, and hopefully, they’ll knock them out. We’re making great progress there. They’re also currently litigating against the mag ban and the assault firearm ban, so-called assault firearm, you know, which is really nothing more than a modern sporting rifle that the antis decide to pick on. The Association, very shortly, is going to be doing their arguments on a summary judgment motion. So, we should see some results there on this great legal challenge. The Association is in the forefront protecting your gun rights with a full time paid lobbyist in Trenton. It’s really important that you belong and become a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to ANJPRC.org to join. Make sure you’re a member and be part of the solution as we fight the fight in New Jersey.

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Evan Nappen 19:03
Also, let me mention WeShoot yet again. WeShoot is that great range in Lakewood, New Jersey. It’s so convenient, right off the Parkway, easy to get to right there in Central Jersey. It’s a great resource, and they are a great bunch of folks. I love all the folks at WeShoot. They treat everybody like family. It’s just a great experience. They have an excellent, first rate range facility. They have gun rentals and training. You can get your courses, get your CCARE so you can get your carry. I did. It’s really a great place. They have all kinds of fun events. It is a resource that you can take advantage of. And I highly, highly suggest you do. We have to maintain our places to shoot. They are a resource. Without a place to shoot, how are we going to practice? It is pretty basic. So, check out weshootusa.com You’ll see their great website with its magnificent photography. They pride themselves on that. They are just a dynamic range that is reaching out to the entire community. They are making a statement by getting more gun owners and folks becoming first time gun owners and learning about guns the right way, from the beginning. I’m really proud of WeShoot. They’re doing wonders for the Second Amendment because we win this one gun owner at a time. Every new gun owner has a vested interest in our Second Amendment. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 20:52
Let me also now shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. If you don’t have a copy, shame on you, because it is a user manual that every gun owner should have in New Jersey. I wrote it to be user friendly. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. With this book, you can help yourself to keep your rights and stay out of jail. Don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. When you get the book, scan the cover, there’s a QR code right on the cover. You get to subscribe for free to the subscriber database, archive, etc, and you’re going to get email alerts of law changes. You’re going to be able to get all the updates, and your book is going to stay current. Once you get that base book, you’re set, and you’ll be able to know the laws. My book is used by New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit. I know that for a fact. I talked with them about it. So many agencies, lawyers, judges, but most importantly thousands of gun owners like yourself throughout New Jersey, have the book so that they can stay on the right side of the law and not get entrapped by New Jersey’s insane matrix of stupid ass gun laws. That’s why I wrote it, folks. I wrote it for you. So, go to EvanNappen.com You’ll see the big orange book there. Just click on it and order a copy for yourself today at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 22:32
Hey, let me tell you about the latest from the angry senile sock puppet, who is also our president. Biden just put forward another attack on gun owners, and this one is a new ATF rule. He and his co- conspirator, Attorney General Garland, have now created yet another weaponization of the gun laws and the abuse of administrative agency law and code promulgation by now making it unlawful to sell a firearm for a profit. Unless you’re a dealer. It’s really that simple. Now, of course they’re saying, oh, it’s a gun show loophole. Oh, you mean the non-existent gun show loophole? That one? Dealers have always had to do NICS checks at gun shows. “Closes the gun show loophole.” Now what this does is it’s an attack on individuals that were making lawful private sales that have been allowed since the founding of our country, basically. In New Jersey, Murphy prohibited all private sales even between

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family members without getting permits and licenses to do it. You have to go through a dealer unless you are an immediate family member.

Evan Nappen 24:01
So, you may think, well, this doesn’t really apply to me in New Jersey. I already have the hammer down on my head because of Murphy. But in fact, it does. It does because the reason for this rule is to get Universal Background Checks (UBC) to force as many gun sales into dealer books so that they are trackable. As you may know, the Biden administration violated the law by databasing literally almost a billion gun transaction records. We know the four words about registration and the problem of it. It goes like this, legislation, registration, confiscation, and then extermination. And that’s a pattern we see. It’s repeated throughout history. If you don’t know that, then you don’t know history. So, we have to stop registration. Registration is a problem, and this is the gateway. This is their plan. So, if you stop private sales throughout the country, if you make it so that every transaction is recorded, known, and able to be databased, this is their plan. Plus, it turns 1000s and 1000s of otherwise law-abiding citizens into criminals. So, it is definitely a big problem.

Evan Nappen 25:21
Let me just show you how big a problem it is. So, here’s an article from Fox News, and it’s by Bradford Betz. (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gun-groups-slam-biden-admin-new-atf-rule-weaponizing-every- tool) It says, “Gun groups slam Biden admin over new ATF rule”. So, this is not just me recognizing the threat and how serious it is. Let me read you some of these things. For example, the National Association for Gun Rights told Fox News Digital that the new rule will “outlaw virtually all private sales of firearms between individuals.” Imagine that. Then the Second Amendment Institute, in the article, said that the new rule is “another example of them going beyond the statutory authority for political purposes. It infringes upon the rights of law-abiding citizens and adds unnecessary burdens to those seeking to exercise their Second Amendment rights.” The Gun Owners of America director, Aidan Johnson, said that the Biden administration is “weaponizing every tool in their toolbox to intimidate, harass, and criminalize gun owners with unlawful executive actions.” He called it backdoor universal gun registration, which is exactly what it is. The Second Amendment Foundation founder and Executive VP Alan Gottlieb called the new rule “a continuation of the Biden war on guns.” Yet another example of getting around Congress and the lawmaking responsibility of Congress. The National Rifle Association issued a statement that they’re already working to use all means available to stop this unlawful rule. It’s a serious, serious infringement. It’s a serious problem. It’s another move by Biden and his cronies to curtail the Second Amendment while he neglects all his other responsibilities on every other issue, whether it’s immigration, crime, the economy, you name it. He drops the ball on all that, but he comes after us with a vengeance. So, beware.

Evan Nappen 27:41
Now let me tell you something else. I got an interesting letter, and this was from David Watson, who has yet another very interesting point. Like I said, if you think this doesn’t apply to you in New Jersey, well, let’s say that you sell guns on GunBroker and you say, hey, I put it up there for sale, but I always go through a dealer. Even though I sell it, I don’t actually do the transfer. Well, guess what, folks? That doesn’t matter. Because as David Watson points out, the new rule on page 461, by the way, the rule is 466 pages long for just this rule, says that a sign that a person is engaged in the business, to

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“predominantly earn a profit” . . . . Then it defines “predominantly earn a profit” presumptions that a person has the intent to predominantly earn a profit, makes and maintains records, to document, track, or calculate profits and losses, from firearms repetitively purchased for resale. (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms)

Evan Nappen 28:46
So, what does David point out? The IRS requires recording of your GunBroker sales, and the BATF will say that that’s presumptive proof that you’re violating the BATF rule, because you’re in the business to predominantly earn a profit. BATF says you’re presumed guilty of being an unlicensed gun dealer until proven innocent because you’re presumed to be in the business to predominantly earn a profit. So, even by selling on GunBroker, you may face problems under this rule, even trying to do that lawfully in New Jersey. This rule is terrible. It’s a march down a horrible path. We have to replace this guy in 2024. As if I have to tell you that. He is the worst president in the history of America. He makes Millard Fillmore look good.

Evan Nappen 29:42
So, what about the GOFU of the week? That’s right, folks, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. You know what the GOFU is. It is a very expensive lesson learned by somebody else, that you get to learn very cheap, and that is for free by listening to me. So, let me tell you about this week’s GOFU. I have a fellow, and he got an expungement. Now expungements are great. Expungement can remove your criminal record. And remember, there are so many offenses you can get into trouble for, and most are non-violent. But it doesn’t matter. You are prohibited in New Jersey, if you have any of these offenses, no matter how long ago they were. You need to get your record expunged. We do a lot of expungements in our office. It’s great to get rights restored. This fellow got an expungement, not through our office, but through another, but it doesn’t matter. He got an expungement.

Evan Nappen 30:45
However, he wasn’t told by his lawyer that the State Police are currently negligent in removing the database entry of the expunged record. The State Police are currently in a class action lawsuit because 10s of 1000s of individuals have been waiting well over a year, almost two years. I’ve lost track about how long. For the State Police to do their job, do their job, and have the record scrubbed from the database. Because when you get an expungement, you have an Order of Expungement. The order says your record is clear. Your matters that were expunged are deemed not to have occurred. It’s legal that you’re no longer convicted. You’re good to go as far as the law is concerned. But the next step is the State Police have to clear the database. The database is tied to NICS. Because the State Police are taking so long and this fellow didn’t know, he said hey, I’m good. I got my expungement. He didn’t know that the State Police haven’t cleared the database.

Evan Nappen 31:54
So, he was issued his permits because he showed them the expungement, and the permit issuing authorities saw the expungement and granted his permits. But guess what? He went to a dealer. He went to buy a gun and NICS denied him. NICS is, of course, done through the New Jersey State Police. The New Jersey State Police are the point of contact, POC, for NICS in Jersey. When they denied him, not only could he not buy that gun, but when you get denied by the New Jersey State Police on NICS,

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they contact the local authorities that issued his permits. The authorities took away his license and revoked his licenses that they issued, even though they knew he was expunged, which means he didn’t have the prohibitor, but they didn’t care because the database had not been corrected by the State Police, who are the ones who denied him when they’re the ones who can’t get their act together to actually clear the record when he is in fact not a convicted person anymore. But it didn’t matter. It had this cascading effect of having granted licenses revoked and a NICS denial because he didn’t know to wait for the State Police to clear the record. And that, folks, is your GOFU of the week. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 33:38
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E181_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

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Episode 180-The TR50 is Jersey Legal?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 180SUMMARY KEYWORDS
new jersey, firearm, gun, nra members, sabot, projectile, elephants, defense, weapon, botswana, law,
pistol, home, gun owner, firing, lawful, case, guns, defenseless, folks
SPEAKERS
Speaker 3, Evan Nappen
Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, today, I have an interesting question. Is the
Umarex TR50 Jersey legal? Now many of you may be saying what the hell is a Umarex TR50? Well, let
me tell you. A Umarex TR50 is a .50 caliber Home Defense Revolver. It is powered by CO2, and it has
11 Joules of power. Believe it or not, this self-defense revolver, which fires a .50 caliber projectile, is
available from Amazon. You can go to Amazon.com right now. They have them online there for $169
bucks.
Evan Nappen 01:23
Now, what’s interesting about the TR50 is it’s really a new class, or maybe somewhat part of an existing
class, of self-defense air pistols. We’ve talked in the past about the Byrna gun, and the Byrna fires a .68
caliber round. The Byrna has been out there for a while, and we’ve discussed that before. So, I don’t
want to get into the burnout today of course, because you can go back to the old Gun Lawyer (Episode
171) on Byrna and learn all about Byrnas. But I think the TR50 is really interesting, and I’m going to go
through with you the New Jersey gun law and show you how this is actually wonderfully outside of most
of New Jersey gun law. And it is pretty cool.
Evan Nappen 02:23
This TR50 has plenty of videos online, and you can see how powerful the TR 50 is, especially with the
solid projectile. We’ll get into that in a little bit. But the revolver itself actually has a velocity of 450 feet
per second, and it is currently the most powerful defense revolver fired by air or CO2 out there. At least
that’s a claim by the advertising folks there. It can shoot various types of projectiles, anything from a
steel ball, a pepper ball, rubber ball, a nylon ball, and a shaped projectile. It uses just the standard 12g
CO2.
Evan Nappen 03:17
The question is, what is this under Jersey law? Is it legal to have and what are the parameters to
having it? What are the parameters even on purchasing and owning it? This is where it gets really
fascinating. First of all, the revolver itself is similar in a way to the old Crosman 38T or the so-called
.357 they make, even though it’s a .177 pellet firing revolver. Many of you may be familiar with that old
Crosman revolver. It has little wheels that you push the pellets into, and you can switch out those
wheels. Well, the TR50 also utilizes wheels in a similar way, but it holds six .50 caliber balls instead of
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the .177 pellets. It is substantially more powerful than that Crosman pellet gun even though the
Crosman pellet gun is considered a firearm and a handgun under Jersey law. But as you will see, the
TR50 is not, and I’ll explain why.
Evan Nappen 04:30
The way to understand this revolver and how it applies to New Jersey law is very interesting because of
how they wrote New Jersey law. There was no such thing as a TR50 at the time. So, if we go to the
definitions of under New Jersey law, look at N.J.S. 2C:39-1. Let’s start with subsection f., which defines
what a firearm is. New Jersey defines a firearm as follows.
Evan Nappen 05:09
“f. ‘Firearm”‘means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any
gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid
projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a
cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances.”
Evan Nappen 05:46
The TR50 does not fall under the first category because it’s not firing or ejecting a noxious thing by way
of an explosive or flammable or explosive substance. So, it doesn’t fit that category, but the second part
of the definition of firearm specifically applies to air guns. Listen to what it says next. “It shall also
include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other
weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide,
compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting
a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a
person.”
Evan Nappen 06:56
Now what we have with the TR50 is a projectile over three-eighths of an inch. It is half an inch. It’s .50
cal. so it does not fit the air gun definitional part of “firearm”. Therefore, it is not a firearm. It is not a
firearm by New Jersey’s definition. Now things that are not a firearm but are larger than a certain size
might be considered a destructive device, which is a separately prohibited weapon. Is the TR50 a
destructive device? For that definition, we go again to the definitions under N.J.S. 2C:39-1. Subsection
c. defines destructive device.
Evan Nappen 07:57
c. “Destructive device” means any device, instrument or object designed to explode or produce
uncontrolled combustion, including: (1) any explosive or incendiary bomb, mine or grenade;” So, that
doesn’t cover this. “(2) any rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces . . .” Doesn’t
cover it here. “or any missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter of an
ounce;” Nope, that’s not here. Ah but (3) says, “any weapon capable of firing a projectile of a caliber
greater than 60 caliber, except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as suitable for
sporting purposes.” The next section says, (4) any Molotov cocktail or other device consisting of a
breakable container containing flammable liquid . . .” Then (5) any center-fire rifle that is capable of
firing a .50 BMG cartridge . . .” The only one that even arguably has any element of a TR50 would be
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the third section about a weapon capable of firing a projectile, but it has to be over 60, and the TR50 is
50. So, it’s not a firearm, and it is not a destructive device. The best it could be defined as is a weapon.
That’s right, a weapon.
Evan Nappen 09:34
Now, anything intended to be used as a weapon that could cause injury is essentially a weapon, but
weapons are only regulated in terms of being “other weapons”. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-5, which deals with
the unlawful possession of weapons, Subsection a., you’ll find “machine guns”. In Subsection b. is
“handguns”, and Subsection c. is “rifles and shotguns”. But it would be subsection d. that would
concern us the most because what Subsection d. says is “other weapons”.
Evan Nappen 10:13
“d. Other weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any other weapon under
circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as it may have is guilty of a crime of the
fourth degree.” However, there is an exemption for Subsection d. other weapons, and the exemption is
in fact found in N.J.S. 2C:39-6e. which exempts the possession of “other weapons” in one’s home.
Furthermore, the possession statute itself does talk about possessing it under circumstances not
manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses, as it may have. And you see, this is where New Jersey gets
really weird. You can plainly possess a TR50 in your home. It’s not a regulated firearm. It’s not a
prohibited destructive device. You can order one right from Amazon. You can even order the
ammunition off Amazon. You can possess it in your home under the exemption for “other weapons”.
Evan Nappen 11:41
But what about carrying a TR50? Can you carry a TR50 outside your home for self-defense? Now I
know some of you may say, well, hey, my manifest lawful purpose is self-defense. And by golly, that’s a
lawful purpose if I ever heard of one, and why can’t I carry it? Well, that’s because New Jersey’s case
law on it doesn’t specifically say that’s okay. As a matter of fact, the current case law on it says that it’s
not okay. This is because of a line of case that we’ve also talked about when discussing tasers. And
that line of cases begins with a case called Kelly, which originally had somebody charged under this
statute with an “other weapon”. The Court said that someone who preemptively arms themselves for
self-defense is not a lawful purpose in New Jersey. Can you believe that? Arming yourself for lawful
self-defense is not a lawful purpose. Sorry, that doesn’t fly. They said that it was not an effective
defense that you could present if you were claiming you had this for self-defense. Plainly, this is
designed for self-defense.
Evan Nappen 13:09
But then along comes another case that happened after the Heller decision, which established that you
can have firearms and other weapons for self-defense in one’s home. So, the court, seeing the writing
on the wall in Montalvo where this person came up to the door with a machete in his hand. He wasn’t
using it to threaten or attack anyone. But he appeared in the door with a machete, and the police saw
this and said, aha, you’re possessing this weapon. You have it. He said look, I have it for self-defense.
Oh, that’s not allowed under Kelly and blah, blah. But guess what the court said? Nope. We’re going to
draw a new line, a new red line here. If you preemptively arm yourself for self-defense in your home,
then that’s okay. That itself exempts you from the statute because they recognize that preemptively
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arming oneself for self-defense in the home is a manifest, lawful purpose, a lawful purpose. But not
outside the home. Imagine that. Not outside the home.
Evan Nappen 14:11
Then along comes the Bruen decision that asks that very question. Do we have a right under the
Second Amendment for self-defense outside the home? Does it apply outside the home? Can we
defend ourselves outside the home? The answer was yes. And that’s what made “shall issue” carry
permits lawful in New Jersey. But you see, we don’t have a follow up case yet in New Jersey that says
yes. Preemptively arming oneself for self-defense outside the home with an “other weapon” is a
manifest lawful purpose. We don’t have a case that says that yet.
Evan Nappen 14:46
However, I strongly believe that should a challenge come in front of the Court that, under the Bruen
decision by the Supreme Court of the United States, they would have to expand it and say, yes, you do
have a right to self-defense outside the home. Therefore, you can carry other weapons outside the
home. But they haven’t said that yet, and I’m sure none of you want to be the test case. I’m sure a test
case is going to come along at some point. But until a test case comes along, I would not carry the
TR50 outside the home. I suspect at some point we will see such a decision. But until then, you can
possess it plainly in your home. It’s outside of those definitions, as I explained. There is an additional
exemption anyway to possess in your home, regardless of the “manifest lawful purpose”. So, that’s how
that works. I think it’s a very interesting tool for self-defense that is out in the market now and really
didn’t exist until recent times. If it fits somebody’s need for a self-defense weapon in the home, feel free.
Evan Nappen 16:05
You can also check out some really cool projectiles that are made for the TR50. I think one of the
coolest ones is known as the “devastator round.” Boy, I really wish they didn’t give those names to
these things. It’s not exactly helpful, but whatever. It’s pretty devastating what this round does. It is it’s a
sabot. A sabot round is a round that has the projectile encased in plastic or some other material that is
lighter weight and peels away from the main projectile. In this case, it’s a sabot round that has a steel
core round ball in it that would be somewhat smaller than .50 caliber itself, but not a whole lot smaller.
Maybe it’s .40 cal. or .45 cal., and it has the plastic material around it, which also gives it a better seal
as it is proceeding down the barrel. Then that plastic piece either falls off or is kind of relatively
irrelevant once it leaves the barrel because that steel core ball is what is going to have the impact.
Evan Nappen 17:30
As it says right on Amazon, you can read it, maximum impact and penetration, stabilized full metal
jacket bullet with steel core, that’s on the inside, effectively penetrate materials such as glass, plywood,
or thin sheet metal. The most powerful self-defense bullets on the market. Amazon sells them at the
moment for $49.95. I think it comes with . . . Does it say how many on here? Not sure. Maybe it’s 25 or
so. But, anyway, that is very interesting ammunition. You can see demos, of course, on the internet
about its use and the firing of it using a sabot round. You know, sabot actually comes from the French
meaning shoe. It is literally like a shoe, like when you put a shoe around your foot. So, you’re putting
this shoe around the bullet.
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Evan Nappen 18:33
You may have heard the word sabotage. To sabotage something. That comes from the Industrial
Revolution when the folks that were opposing the Industrial Revolution, particularly in France, would
take their shoe and throw it in the machinery, screwing up the gears and causing the machinery to
break down. Hence, it was sabotage. That’s the origin of the word sabotage. But sabot means shoe
and that’s a sabot round. There are even firearm rounds that use sabots. There are even huge artillery
rounds that use sabots. At one point, Remington had sabot .308s that fired out of a .308 with a sabot
.22 caliber round. Man, that thing went out of there, I think, at 4000 plus feet per second. Because the
projectile is so much lighter, but it’s still going to have the accuracy of the sabot itself. So, sabot rounds
themselves are interesting, and I thought you’d appreciate learning about the TR50.
Evan Nappen 19:45
Let me also mention that the state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is
the gun rights organization for New Jersey. They are the premier gun rights organization. You know, I
talk about them a lot. They are a sponsor of the show, and I’m proud also to serve on the Board of the
Association. The Association is an umbrella organization of gun clubs throughout New Jersey, but they
have individual members also. They are the group in the courts currently litigating against the Carry
Killer bill, the so-called large capacity magazine ban, and the assault firearm ban. You know, the
pejorative political terms that the anti-gunners have been able to enact as actual legal terms, even
though they’re crap. Nonetheless, we’re fighting those things in the courts as we speak. They’re also
down in Trenton with a paid lobbyist to keep watching all the shenanigans going on there. So, become
a member of the Association. Even if you don’t live in New Jersey, you can join the Association
because New Jersey is on the forefront of the battle for our gun rights. Show your support and be part
of the solution. Check out anjrpc.org. That’s anjrpc.org.
Evan Nappen 21:09
And let me also mention my book, my labor of love,
Evan Nappen 21:11
Let me also mention our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor pistol range in Lakewood,
New Jersey, and they’re a fantastic indoor range. They are premiere. They are just wonderful people
there. I just love WeShoot, love everybody down there. They’re wonderful. When you go there, you’re
treated like family. Mention my name, and you’ll be treated like royalty. It’s really a great place and a
great resource right there in Lakewood, so easily accessible right off the parkway. You can check out
WeShoot at weshootusa.com. That’s their website, weshootusa.com. They have an excellent website,
beautiful photography, and they run all kinds of fun events. If you need training, if you need to get your
CCARE certificate so you can get your New Jersey shall issue carry license, they will help you do that.
That’s where I got mine, and you can get yours. They are first rate. You will not be sorry. So many of
the folks that have listened to me and gone there, tell me how much they love WeShoot, and I love
them, too. Make sure you go to WeShoot and give them your business. They are a stalwart defender of
the Second Amendment.
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Evan Nappen 22:29
I also want to my mention my book, my labor of love, the famous bible of New Jersey gun law, and it’s
called New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition and is the guidebook that every New
Jersey gun owner needs in order to navigate the treacherous waters of New Jersey. I’ve specifically
designed it to be user friendly. It’s all in a question and answer format of 120 topics over 500 pages. It’ll
help keep you free and out of jail and not get disenfranchised of your gun rights, which New Jersey
loves to do. So, get the book. It’s a book that’s used by the New Jersey State Police. It’s used by law
enforcement all throughout New Jersey. It’s used by judges, attorneys, and most importantly, by 1000s
of gun owners just like yourself. They all rely on it. It is my calling in life to keep that book current, and
the way I do it is on the front cover, you’ll see a QR code. Just scan it with your phone, and you can
subscribe for free. That’s right, just like this show is free. The free subscription for the database, the
archive. You can get any of the updates anytime you want. Download them and put them with the book
so it keeps the book current. I’ll send you updates when there are law changes of any type going on in
Jersey, whether it’s Attorney General opinions, new laws, new cases, important things that you need to
know so you can stay legal in New Jersey. Go to EvanNappen.com and get your copy of the book, New
Jersey Gun Law.
Evan Nappen 24:06
Now I have here some interesting things I want to share with you. I have some tidbits here and there
and some good letters. So, let me tell you about something pretty cool. If you are an NRA member, if
you’re an NRA member, you just received protection from being prosecuted under the senile sock
puppet’s pistol brace ban. That’s right. Biden’s pistol brace ban that turned, you know, a million or more,
who knows how many, law-abiding gun owners into criminals overnight. That’s what they love to do.
Well, anyway, NRA just won a nice, preliminary injunction by a federal judge, U.S. District Judge Sam
A. Lindsay, who enjoined the federal agency from enforcing its rule, which reclassified pistol braced
guns. This injunction protects any NRA member who owns a braced gun from facing federal
prosecution. The court said compliance with the final rule is not discretionary, and NRA members face
severe penalties for their failure to comply with the final rule, as per Judge Lindsay. Accordingly, both
the final requirements for injunctive relief are satisfied because the threatened injury to NRA members
outweighs the threatened harm to the defendants and enforcement of the final rule under the
circumstances will not serve public interest.
Evan Nappen 24:09
So, NRA members are protected at the moment. Now, of course, it’s just a preliminary injunction and
unless the case takes a different turn, and the judge changes his mind, rules against us or something
changes on appeal, you never know. But it is an excellent win at the moment, and it indicates that
there’s a strong likelihood that this win will continue. Of course, other cases have protected the Firearm
Policy Coalition members and Gun Owners of America members. This is why it’s very important to
belong to the gun groups. Make sure you support the pro-gun groups, all of them, frankly. The
Association is currently litigating now and who knows where that will go. If you’re an Association
member, you’re going to know that you’re not only helping, but you yourself personally may get helped
if such a decision like this comes out, simply affecting Association members, who knows. So, here you
can see that it pays. It pays to be part of the groups that fight for your rights. And here, there is now
protection for NRA members. That’s a good thing. Congratulations to the NRA for achieving that.
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Evan Nappen 27:16
Here’s just a little tidbit that kind of makes me laugh, and I think you’ll enjoy it. But, you know, it is really
funny. This is from a BBC article. By the way, the article on the NRA, which was brought to my
attention, was from The Truth About Guns. It was written by Doug Howlett, and the article is called NRA
Members Receive “Get Out of Jail Free Card” for Guns with Pistol Braces. So, check them out. You
can read the whole article. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nra-members-receive-get-out-of-jailfree-card-for-guns-with-pistol-braces/) When I read that article, I wanted to share the news with you.
And, you know, The Truth About Guns is great. These are great aggregate news services and
informational services that are out there helping get the word out to gun owners and such.
Evan Nappen 28:07
Now this other article I found is from the BBC, and what it says is, ready for this? Botswana threatens to
send 20,000 elephants to Germany. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-68715164) Now let me just say
when I read this, I thought is this like an April Fool’s joke? You know, fake, but it’s not fake. It’s actually
real. Now why is Botswana threatening to send elephants to Germany? Well, what it says in the article
is earlier this year, Germany’s environmental ministry suggested there should be stricter limits on
importing trophies from hunting animals. Then it says Botswana’s President Mokgweetsi Masisi told
German media that this would only impoverish people in his country. Imagine that. Imagine having to
care about people. That would really be weird, wouldn’t it? Like really having to care about people? I
don’t know. Do they actually do that anymore?
Evan Nappen 29:00
President Masisi said elephant numbers have exploded as a result of conservation efforts and hunting
helps keep them in check. Can you believe that? Here’s a quote from the article. Germans should “live
together with the animals, in the way you are trying to tell us to.” Yeah, that’s pretty good. Mr. Masisi
said, this is no joke. He said that Botswana is home to a third of the world’s elephant population. The
elephant population is over 130,000. More than Botswana even has space for. 130,000 Elephants.
More than they have space for. The herds are damaging property, eating crops and trampling
residents, Mr. Masisi said. Botswana has previously given 8,000 elephants to Angola. That was nice of
them. They want to offer hundreds more to Mozambique, and they’d like to offer such a gift to
Germany, adding that they would not take no for an answer. Botswana ministry also, by the way,
threatened to send 10,000 elephants to London’s Hyde Park so the British people could have a taste of
living alongside them. This is just great. I love this. This is absolutely great.
Evan Nappen 30:23
They talk about how the money helps conservation efforts, the hunting money, and it helps local people
so they’re less likely to be tempted to even poach animals, you know, because wealthy folks pay a lot
to hunt elephants. They said, look, in some areas, there are more of these beasts than people. They’re
killing children who get in their path. They trample and eat farmers’ crops, leaving Africans hungry. So,
you know, the bunny hugging, I guess in this case, elephant hugging folks, are just outrageous and not
facing reality. They’re not living in these places having to deal with these horrible problems that they
have to deal with. Trying to impose their screwed up values on African countries is just wrong. I hope
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they do send 1000s of elephants to the UK and to Germany. That would be very interesting to say the
least.
Evan Nappen 31:27
I received a letter here in the ask Evan, and I love all your letters. I appreciate it. This letter is from Bill,
and Bill says it’s regarding the gun free zone sign effectiveness. He said, I printed out the Attorney
General gun free zone sign and placed in my house to test the effectiveness of this sign. It turned out I
and several family members were able to walk right past that sign. I printed it out several times, and it
still didn’t work. It didn’t work. It’s amazing. How come that sign didn’t work? How come we didn’t freeze
in our tracks? How were you able to proceed with a firearm beyond that side? That’s amazing. That’s
good, Bill. I like your experiment there. I’m shocked to learn that. Bill goes on further and said is the
Attorney General’s free decal more effective? Maybe TSA can put up these stickers at the airport and
get rid of the body scanners and X ray machines to speed up boarding. Many other states have license
to carry holder reports, and it turns out that license holders are more law-abiding than the police. Yet,
police can carry guns everywhere and have scary large capacity magazines and assault firearms. But
permit to carry holders can’t.
Evan Nappen 32:53
Yeah, Bill, you point out some very valid points here. The absurdity of the gun laws, and the absurdity
of their solutions seems to know no bounds. I always thought about making up a sign, you know, for
your anti-gun neighbors. You should actually give them a sign that says, “No Firearms in This House,”
and say please put the sign in your front yard since you believe so strongly in it. I would really prefer it
that way. If someone’s targeting houses, they’ll know to hit your house and not mine. It’s great. So, it’s
kind of like, if you put a no firearms sign on your house or a no guns allowed, you’re basically setting
yourself up to get a Darwin Award. That’s what you’re doing.
Evan Nappen 33:46
Because even if you don’t want to be a gun owner at all, maybe you hate them, but at least the idea
that you might be armed and that bad guy doesn’t know it, should at least give them pause for thought
and some hesitation. But when you remove all doubt and show that you are a fool and that you make it
clear that you are defenseless, then you get what one would naturally expect would happen to
somebody like this. You know not having guns makes you defenseless. Nobody really should be
defenseless. It makes you harmless. I don’t want to be harmless. You don’t want to be harmless. You
want to be dangerous, actually. But you want to be able to control that completely and be able to use it
lawfully. So that in fact, what you become is a defender, and you are no longer someone who is
defenseless and harmless. But if you want to put a sign out saying that this is a defenseless place, then
that is what those signs accomplish. It is about as foolish, as foolish gets.
Evan Nappen 35:17
Hey, what about this week’s GOFU? What’s the Gun Owner Fuck Up of the week? Oh my gosh, did we
even have a Gun Owner Fuck Up of the week? Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Because every day, I hear
about new ones, and I have to sift through and decide which ones we’re going to talk about because
there’s so many of them, folks. This week’s GOFU goes as follows. New Jersey does not make a gift
causa mortis on a firearm legal. Now what is a gift causa mortis? Well, that is fancy legal talk for
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something given in contemplation of death. So, if somebody thinks they are going to pass soon, you
know, could be given a relative and they say, look, you know, I don’t know how much longer I have. I
want you to have my gun, and they just give you their gun. That is an unlawful transfer in Jersey.
Private sales are prohibited, folks. Private transfers are prohibited, folks.
Evan Nappen 36:31
Now amongst family members, you still need to do the paperwork. It doesn’t have to go through a
dealer if it’s between immediate family members, but you still have to do the paperwork. If a friend is
wanting to do a gift causa mortis of a gun to you, then it has to go through a dealer to do the paperwork
properly. So many times I hear, oh yeah, my grandfather gave me this. My father gave me this. And
often it was done in contemplation of death. Even if it wasn’t done in contemplation of death, you can’t
just give guns in Jersey. The only way you can get that firearm without any paper, without any license,
without any registration, without any problem, is upon the death of the person. If you are the heir or
beneficiary, then you can get the gun with no paperwork, license registration, as long as you’re not
otherwise disqualified to possess it. If you’re a convicted felon or some other disqualified person, then
the firearm has to go to the police and has to be sold. You can’t have it. As long as you’re not otherwise
disqualified, you don’t even need to be licensed. You inherit the gun with no paperwork, but you can’t
pre inherit it. You can’t get it prior to the person’s demise. So that is this week’s GOFU. This is, by the
way, Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They
protect criminals from honest citizens.
Speaker 3 38:18
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by
Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and
opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E180_transcriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

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Episode 179-Gun Denial? Biden says, “No Global Entry for you!” Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 179SUMMARY KEYWORDS

guns, gun, new jersey, denial, firearm, denied, program, nics, zombie, term, law, gun laws, called, ban, gun violence, state, expungement, purchase, federal, destroy

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you know, this show focuses on, of course, firearms, weapons, the Second Amendment, and all that kind of great stuff. I really am blessed to have a job that I enjoy and do what I’m interested in doing. I’m able to help a lot of people all the time with these subjects. In so doing, things are brought to my attention that I never knew about. When I didn’t know about it, I’m pretty confident that my listeners probably don’t know about it either. I’m never amazed, and I never cease to be amazed at the things that end up coming my way. I have this opportunity through Gun Lawyer to tell you about it. Here’s the latest and greatest. Did you know that if you are denied a firearm purchase, that Joe Biden says you are not eligible for Global Entry? That’s right. A firearm denial has the collateral consequence of barring you from the Global Entry Program.

Evan Nappen 01:41
Now the Global Entry Program is administered by the U.S. Customs and Border Protection, and it is kind of a companion program of TSA Precheck. What it does is it allows you to travel with much more ease when traveling globally. I had a person call me who had applied to purchase a firearm and got denied NICS, and we’re challenging the basis for the NICS denial. But that’s not the point. They were denied NICS, and now we’re going to do the standard fight to straighten out the NICS denial. But three days later, this person gets a letter that they’re barred from their application for the Global Entry Program. Let me tell you about the Global Entry Program, and this is incredibly significant. In New Jersey, getting denied for a gun license is substantially more risky and more prevalent than under even the Federal law because New Jersey’s law has so many of these subjective criteria. Many of their bases for gun denial go well beyond the Federal law.

Evan Nappen 03:19
So, let’s take a look here at the Global Entry Program. (https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler- programs/global-entry) You can actually go to the website for U.S. Customs and Border Protection and go right to their eligibility for global entry. (https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global- entry/eligibility) It says are you eligible? Then it lists countries that are eligible. Of course, U.S. citizens and U.S. lawful permanent residents of the following countries are eligible for Global Entry membership, and they have a list of all the countries. Canadians are eligible (through membership in the NEXUS program). If someone is under 18, they have to have a parent’s or legal guardian’s consent. Then it has reasons for ineligibility to be part of this program. It says you may not be eligible for participation for the

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Global Entry Program, if you, and it says four requirements below. The first one is false or incomplete information on the application or second, have been convicted of a criminal offense or have pending criminal charges or outstanding warrants, including, by the way, DWI, which in New Jersey is only a traffic offence. But even a pending DWI will bar you from this program. Third, if you’ve been found in violation of any customs, immigration or agricultural regulations or laws in any country. If you’re a farmer and you violate an agriculture law, you’re barred. Fourth, it says anyone who’s the subject of an ongoing investigation by any federal, state or local law enforcement agency. It doesn’t say “criminal” investigation. What if you’re being investigated on a National Firearms Act application or a Federal Firearms License? I don’t know. Then the next one says, have been denied for the purchase of a firearm. Denied for purchase of a firearm.

Evan Nappen 05:40
Here this person was denied a purchase in NICS, and three days later, somehow U.S. Customs learns of a NICS denial. Where’s the conduit that’s communicating that information? NICS denials are supposed to be about guns? How did that other agency even learn of a firearm purchase denial? I don’t know. You know, in New Jersey, anything they can do to screw gun owners they’re going to do. I expect to see more and more individuals that have faced any type of denial for purchase of a firearm, no matter how unreasonable, or wrong, or incorrect or illegal, that denial was or unconstitutional for that matter. You’re now going to be subjected to a collateral consequence and additional penalty that affects you as a person and your reputation beyond guns barring you from the Global Entry Program. This particular person was extremely upset because it’s part of their career to travel, and it’s part of their job to make sure they can travel efficiently. Here they’re being denied the program.

Evan Nappen 07:10
This is an outrage that has been placed on gun owners. And like I was saying before, it’s so easy in Jersey, because we have the absurd disqualifier of so-called Public Safety, Health and Welfare, based on character or temperament. That second part based on character and temperament was only recently added, by the way. That’s so subjective criteria. It’s so broad. I call it the all-inclusive weasel clause. It just takes an anti-gun chief as issuing authority to try to make out that you are somehow that threat, and lots of times what they look at is your social media posts. They’ll try to make a claim that you’re somehow a danger to public health, safety and welfare. New Jersey even has separate denial criteria involving posts and social media and such that people make. Of course, you know, they’re going to slant that on your political views. You get that denial, and now it has further consequences than even denying your Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 08:30
If you get a denial in Jersey, one of the new denial criteria, which we’ve talked about before, is having a voluntary mental health commitment. If you’ve had a voluntary mental health commitment, not just an involuntary, which is a federal per se disqualifier, but New Jersey makes voluntary and involuntary both a per se disqualify. You’re getting denied a gun purchase. And you’re looking now at being barred from the global travel via the Global Entry Program from that denial. It is above and beyond anything Federal, even though that’s a Federal law, but the Federal law doesn’t care about the reason the state denied you a gun. It doesn’t. They don’t care how unreasonable the state licensing law is. If you’re denied, you’re denied, and they’re going to stop you.

Page – 2 – of 8

Evan Nappen 09:28
New Jersey now, of course, does the NICS via the state because they’re a POC, a Point Of Contact. When a gun purchase is done in Jersey, the dealer has to contact the State Police. So, they’re going to be aware of any state disqualifiers including on the mental health aspect, both voluntary and involuntary commitments. Many times, folks have that disqualifier, of which the only cure is getting a mental health expungement. That’s it. That’s the only way you can get rid of that disqualifier is by getting a mental health expungement, and a mental health expungement is somewhat involved to even get. It’s also somewhat costly. It’s a significant legal expense to do it. Our office does these. We’ve done hundreds of them, but it takes a good chunk of time to get them done. You have to get a doctor’s report as part of the litigation to get a mental health expungement. And that’s the only way to clear your rights.

Evan Nappen 10:40
Now, once you get a mental health expungement that’s accepted by both the Federal and state governments as relieving you of the per se disqualifier. But remember, New Jersey even goes further than mental health commitments for denials. New Jersey asks have you ever been treated or observed by any doctor, psychiatrist, any mental or physical condition? If you answer yes to that, you can get denied, and then you have to prove that you’re safe for handling firearms. Plus, New Jersey has a slew of other criteria used for denial, including those that are not found in any other state. For example, anyone who’s had guns seized pursuant to domestic violence and even though the restraining order was dismissed, if those guns were not returned to you, you are a prohibited person to get a license. That is correct. It doesn’t matter that all it was some crappy, top break shotgun that you couldn’t even get 20 bucks for at a gun buyback. You just said, hey, I don’t care, they can keep it. If you do that, you’ve now not only lost your gun rights in New Jersey, and your ability to get a license, but also you are denied a gun purchase in the future and didn’t even realize it.

Evan Nappen 12:01
Now you’re barred from the Federal Global Entry Program because of New Jersey’s unreasonable gun laws. This is crazy stuff. And it’s getting worse and worse. If you get a gun denial, you can’t ignore it. You have to fight it. You have to fight it for your reputation. In the same way that you would avoid a criminal conviction for that very reason. Gun denials have collateral consequences. It can stop you. We are aware even that if you apply to work at the casino, they ask if you ever had a gun denied. Other employers now ask. This is stuff that’s been databased. Be aware that a gun denial goes beyond guns. It’s your reputation. Not just your gun rights. Now we see its extension to a federal travel program no less. And who knows what other agencies are going to sneak in gun denials as a basis to deny whatever other federal program you may be seeking to enjoy, and you will be stopped because of it. So, this is a serious problem. I don’t know anybody else who’s ever talked about a Global Entry Program denial simply because a gun purchase has been denied. Yet, you can see it for yourself on their website, and I now have a genuine client dramatically affected by that very thing. So beware, be very aware.

Evan Nappen 13:49
Now, of course, we have our state Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It is 24/7 guarding us and fighting for gun rights in the most difficult of environments known as New Jersey.

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They are making tremendous headway and have had a number of successes fighting in this challenging state. You need to be a member of the state Association. They are the premier gun rights group in New Jersey. I’m not saying don’t belong to other gun rights groups, but you have to belong to the Association. ANJRPC, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (anjrpc.org.) When you become a member of the umbrella organization of gun clubs, known as the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, you’ll get email alerts as to shenanigans taking place in Trenton.

Evan Nappen 14:50
You’ll be updated on all the litigation. They’re the ones in Federal court, as we speak, challenging the so-called assault firearm ban, which we call the modern sporting rifle ban, and the standard capacity magazine ban, which is, of course, what the law calls a large capacity magazine ban, any magazine over 10 rounds. They’re fighting the Carry Killer bill that Governor Murphy placed upon us in his hissy fit since carry permits had to become a true “shall issue”. Since they have to issue permits now, their gambit is to make them useless when you have them. The Association is battling that for us in the Federal courts and making great progress. They even made great progress in the initial stages as well. That’s why, thanks to the state Association, we can carry in our car with a carry permit, a concealed loaded handgun. It was banned under Murphy’s Carry Killer bill. Even with a carry permit, you couldn’t carry in your own vehicle. We called that the Carjacker Protection Law and that was knocked out by the Association. It is still knocked out even on appeal. So, things like that. They’re a very effective group, and more members make them even more effective. So, please join anjrpc.org. Go to the website and join today.

Evan Nappen 16:22
By the way, speaking about so-called assault weapons or assault firearms, you know, I really get sick of hearing that term. Unfortunately, in New Jersey, they’ve enshrined the term “assault firearm” into the law. It’s actually in the law as a term, assault firearm. It is a legal term, and you can be charged with possession of an assault firearm. It’s that horrible five-part, insane definition that virtually no one except me can even understand. It is really bad. Yet, that term is recognized as a political term, even though New Jersey has made it the name of the banned items in its law. What I’m talking about here, by the way, is the AP Stylebook. The Associated Press puts out what’s called a style book so that writers, particularly reporters and those in the news media, even those in the Imperial Media, you know, the one run by the Government in the background. (https://apstylebook.com/)

Evan Nappen 17:43
They put out this style guide, and their style guide talks about semi-automatic rifle, assault rifle, and assault weapon. Of course, New Jersey uses the term assault firearm but would fit right in. Listen to what the AP Style Book has to say. They said that the preferred term for a rifle that fires one bullet each time the trigger is pulled, and automatically reloads for a subsequent shot, is a semi-automatic rifle. An automatic rifle continuously fires rounds if the trigger is depressed and until the ammunition is exhausted. Avoid assault rifle and assault weapon, which are highly politicized terms that generally refer to all AR- or AK-style rifles designed for the civilian market, but convey little meaning about the actual functions of the weapon. More detail is in the Stylebook’s weapons entry. Isn’t that amazing? The AP, which themselves are not necessarily conservative, even they put in their Stylebook that it’s a politicized term and that should be avoided. Yet the media ignores that and constantly uses the

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propaganda term of assault rifle, assault weapon, and even assault firearm, which is a political term that New Jersey turned into a legal term, even though it is a politicized term. They knew it, and they got that name, that pejorative name, in the law. The media needs to be neutral and be real journalists. I know that’s asking for the moon. Imagine that and here the AP Stylebook lays out that very point.

Evan Nappen 19:59
Hey, speaking of some great places to shoot, I want to tell you about WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor gun range in Lakewood, and they are a fantastic range. They are such great people, and they’re friends with everybody. They have a magnificent range, and they are second to none in terms of training. They also have great events. They’ll just bend over backwards to make you happy. So many people have reported back to me that they’ve listened and gone to WeShoot and tell me that I’m not kidding about that. And I’m not. It’s a great range. It is right in Lakewood, easily accessible off the Parkway. And you know, we need our ranges so badly. They’re a resource for the Second Amendment. WeShoot stands firm on your rights and the Second Amendment. That’s where I got my certification for CCARE so I could get my carry. My brother and my son, got theirs, too. It’s a great place. You can get your firearm needs met. Please check them out at weshootusa.com. That’s their website. Go to the range there, you will not be disappointed. You’ll see exactly what I’m talking about.

Evan Nappen 21:30
So, now is when I shamelessly promote my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. New Jersey Gun Law is the Bible of New Jersey gun laws. It’s my labor of love, folks. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of man hours to write it. It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition, and it is your guidebook to New Jersey’s insane matrix of gun laws. It’s laid out in 120 topics, all in a question and answer format so it’s easy to understand. That’s how I wrote it so it would be user friendly. It will help you avoid becoming a victim of New Jersey gun laws. You don’t want to become a victim of New Jersey gun laws because then you get known as a law-abiding criminal. That’s what New Jersey creates – law-abiding criminals. So, get a copy of my book. You’ll be glad you did. Everyone that has it loves it. Sounding a little bit like Donald Trump there. But, really, it’s true. They all love it. On the front cover is a QR code that you scan. When you scan the QR code, you’ll get all the updates for free. You’ll also get access to the archives for free. It is a free subscription to updates and the archive, and that keeps your book current. So, if you want to get a copy, get it today, go to EvanNappen.com. My name, EvanNappen.com. On the website, you’ll see the big orange book there. Just click it and get yourself a copy. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 23:01
Here’s something interesting that came my way, and I want to talk to you about this. It’s a new term. Because, you know, the antis love to invent new scary terms. Right? They create these pejoratives. These scary words to scare the public. So, their scary word before and still is, “ghost guns”. Ooh, scary ghosts. Ghost guns. Well, now there’s a new kid on the block, and do you know what they’re calling it? “Zombie guns”. I’m not kidding. Zombie guns. Yep. Zombie guns are actually different than ghost guns. Can you believe it? Ghost guns, zombie guns, soon we’ll have haunted house guns and every monster ever created gun. You know, there’s just no end to their naming of types of guns and issues. But what are zombie guns? Well, of course, Democrats are always craving brains because they don’t have any. So, it makes sense that they talk about zombie guns, doesn’t it?

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Evan Nappen 24:09
Well, let me tell you what a zombie gun is. Zombie guns are a loophole. Oh, my God. Not another gun loophole. Yes, a loophole, and this loophole is attempting to be closed by a Democrat, of course. Those stalwart defenders of our rights. Yeah, always looking to take them away. U.S. Representative Maxwell Frost (representing Florida’s 10th District) is trying to do something to close this dreaded loophole. And what does he say? By the way, I want to give credit. This was brought to my attention by an article by Mark Chestnut in The Truth About Guns, which is an excellent read source should you want to check out the truth about guns. (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/zombie-guns-yet-another-dangerous- loophole/) What Frost says is, “The Zombie Gun Loophole is a problematic way that guns can end up in the hands of those responsible for gun violence.” That’s a quote from Rep. Frost. Don’t you love it? They always throw the gun violence thing in there. See, it’s not criminal violence, folks. That’s bad – criminal. No, it’s gun violence. As we’ve talked about in the past, gun violence can be good or bad. But this is gun violence.

Evan Nappen 25:33
So, how does this loophole work? Well, he’s claiming we have to destroy zombie guns. Okay, but what’s a freakin zombie gun? You still haven’t told us. Well, here’s what it is. Ready? A zombie gun is this, according to Frost. It’s a gun that should not be living. I’m not making this language up. This is what he said. A gun that should not be living. It should not be able to operate. It shouldn’t be in use. And it shouldn’t be able to harm or claim another life. Drumroll, please. But it does. Oh, my. How does this work? What is he talking about? He still isn’t clear. He says, closing the loophole that has allowed. Right? “Closing the loophole that has allowed gun destruction companies to collect taxpayer dollars for only destroying one part of the gun and not the whole thing is undoubtably contributing to the gun violence we are seeing in our communities today. I refuse to see another life taken or another family devastated because of gun violence. We need to destroy zombie guns now.”

Evan Nappen 26:53
So, what he wants is a Federal law that says any guns that have been seized, forfeited, taken that are crime guns or guns where people lost their rights and had them forfeited, that these gun destruction companies that are paid to destroy the guns, but they’re not fully destroying the guns. They are only destroying the frames. Then they’re selling the gun parts, and those gun parts can be made into evil ‘zombie guns’. Oh, my. That’s what they’re trying to stop and that’s what zombie guns are. The new word, the new catchphrase, the new media sensation is going to be pushed upon us is ‘zombie guns’. I’m sure we’ll see subliminal propaganda in a movie about how this guy, this evil doer, built a zombie gun. And I’m sure we’ll see it on various TV series – zombie guns. They’ll push this propaganda on us. That’s how they roll. You know it’s going to happen.

Evan Nappen 28:10
But I was thinking about these so-called ‘zombie guns’, and do you know what’s funny, folks? I think this is actually, weirdly, not necessarily a bad thing for us. Now, let me explain why. I can’t stand with this guy, Frost, and all his crap about gun violence, all the key catch phrases and all the propaganda. But let’s cut through this for a minute. Think about what’s going on here. These are guns that have been seized from people in America, and they were destined for destruction. Now, I am not saying by any means that guns seized, that it’s all great due process, and a wonderful job by the Government,

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only taking guns out of bad guys’ hands. But guns that are seized and ordered to be destroyed, if there is a due process there and they were crime guns or guns that got lawfully forfeited, then utter and complete destruction of them, as opposed to just a frame, is actually, weirdly, a good thing. And I’ll tell you why.

Evan Nappen 29:36
Not because of so-called gun violence. Not at all because of that. It has nothing whatsoever to do with so-called gun violence, nothing. But the reason it actually might be good is because if gun parts are not destroyed and instead put out into the market so that individuals can build new guns from the gun parts at a cheaper cost, it actually hurts the gun industry. So, ironically, what Frost is doing, by having complete and utter destruction of every gun taken by the Government will stop not only the sale of the gun, but the gun parts and actually enhance the economics of the gun manufacturing industry and the gun selling industry, the gun commerce industry in America by not allowing the cheaper stuff to remain and cause less sales and manufacture of new guns. It’s just simple economics, folks.

Evan Nappen 30:58
So, they’re actually, maybe unbeknownst to them, helping the gun industry and wait, there’s another thing I don’t think they’ve considered. When the Government has to destroy guns, they have to pay to have them destroyed. If these lovely gun destruction companies are getting paid to do it and they’re able to profit by selling all the other gun parts except the frame, now they’re curtailed from that profitable enterprise of selling gun parts. Now, they have to charge more to the Government to destroy guns and that becomes a greater financial burden to the Government, thereby indirectly discouraging gun seizures and forfeitures by making it more and more expensive to do this. I am all for making it more expensive and more costly for the Government to have to destroy guns. I’m all for helping our firearm commerce, industry and retail dealers to make and sell more guns. Representative Frost, you may and might, in fact, be inadvertently helping the gun industry and the Second Amendment and actually having the opposite effect of what your bullshit propaganda is claiming to do. And if that is, in fact, true, then I love it.

Evan Nappen 32:50
Look, it’s not surprising how many things Democrats do that have the opposite effect of what they are trying to do. Like gun control itself, which, of course, just protects criminals and creates victims instead of defenders. Look at the ban on plastic bags in New Jersey. If you go to New Jersey, and I don’t know if you realize folks that don’t live in New Jersey, if you go to New Jersey, and you go to a convenience store. If you have a handful of all these items to purchase, you do not get a bag. You somehow have to manage all that stuff out to the car without a bag because they do not allow plastic bags in Jersey. They’re banned. So, what they do instead is they will sell a plastic bag that is 15 times thicker than the freebies they used to give. And they say, hey, you can reuse these bags. Considering they run 25 to 35 cents to buy this thicker bag, people just say, oh, I need a damn bag, and they buy the thicker bag. But they don’t reuse it. They throw it away anyway. And guess what’s happened in Jersey because of this wonderful ban that the Democrats put forward on plastic bags? Three times the amount of plastic is now being used in New Jersey because of the ban on plastic bags to try to stop the use of plastic. Another Democrat plan that backfired and had the exact opposite effect. Like I said, zombie guns are because Democrats need brains and that’s what zombies need. No wonder they’re calling them zombie

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guns. They’re zombies. They actually don’t have any brains when they do these things. So, maybe here their brainless actions might actually have, again, a reverse effect. Hey, time will tell, and we will see.

Evan Nappen 34:54
Hey, what about this week’s GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up of the week, in which you get to learn, very cheaply, an expensive lesson that an actual client, or in fact, many clients have learned. And now you get to know this, so you don’t commit the same GOFU. This GOFU is really simple, folks. If you, like many gun owners, are someone who is concerned with the economic conditions that we’re facing, if you have some little bit of prepping going on, and you believe in investing, and maybe you have precious metals, you know, precious metals. I often joke and say precious metals: gold, silver, and lead. But I’m just talking here about the gold and silver part. If you have a lot of coins, bullion, etc., if you have that kind of thing going, let me give you a GOFU tip. Do not store your precious metals, coins, and other valuables with your guns in your gun safe.

Evan Nappen 36:12
Now, you may say, hey, here’s a great gun safe. It’s secure. It’s great. Yeah, I get that. But the problem is, when the police come to take your guns, I cannot tell you how many times that they have taken the gold, the silver, the bullion, and the jewelry, and even a watch collection of clients because they were stored in the gun safe. They took everything in the safe. Then I’m like, why did you take the man’s coins and bullion and collector coins? And watches and jewelry? Why? Oh, well, maybe it was used illegally in a crime or maybe somehow, it’s subject to forfeiture because we can link it to unlawful gain. Or who knows whatever insane theory they come up with, but they take it. They take it all. I’ve just had case after case of that. So, you need to be aware. Do not store your precious metals, jewelry, or other collectibles with your guns, because if your guns ever get seized, those things will be taken.

Evan Nappen 37:17
Unlike firearms, which are serial numbered, and if you followed my advice in the past, you have a list of your guns and many guns, as the police are aware, have been registered and can be traced to individuals, even with gun seizures taking place, often guns still disappear. Yet they’re guns with serial numbers. But let me tell you what happens when your bullion and silver and jewelry get taken? Well, don’t be surprised when what you thought you had, you suddenly don’t have anymore. I have had a number of clients that are involved in major lawsuits, suing over disappearing gold, silver and bullion, and coins and other things that happened to have disappeared when the guns were being taken. It’s not infrequent. It’s sad to say, and I know so many great cops are out there that really try to do a good job and are honest, and I know that. The problem is that there are others who are not. So, don’t create a temptation. Don’t create a temptation. You know, I can resist anything except temptation. That’s just an old joke, but don’t commit that GOFU. This is real. It has happened to real clients, and I don’t want to see it happen to you. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 38:53
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E179_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 178-Show Me Your Sign and See What HappensAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 178SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, gun, carry, gun owner, handgun, firearm, belt, suppressors, state, law, criminals, shoot, permit, ban, jersey, prohibited, protect, long range rifle, sign, ammo

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. There’s been a lot of interesting developments. And boy, I’ve gotten a lot of great letters. So, we’re going to go through all these interesting news bits. Stuff that you will not hear in the Imperial Media, I like calling the lamestream media that. It really fits. It’s the Imperial media, you know. They just put out what the Imperial Government says they should put out. But I’m here to give you some alternative source of news and information, and I enjoy doing that. I really appreciate all of you listeners out there. I’ve gotten a lot of great questions, too, that we’re going to do that I’m sure a lot of you will appreciate.

Evan Nappen 01:07
Maybe you saw it, maybe it didn’t. The Attorney General in New Jersey released a couple of announcements. Number one, he put into a public database, what he’s calling the Dashboard, of all carry licenses, Permits to Carry a Handgun, statistics that are now available on what’s happened in New Jersey with the issuance of the carry permits. (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-platkin- office-of-justice-data-launch-permit-to-carry-dashboard/) It’s actually pretty interesting. They put it out there to create problems, of course. They want it to be used politically against us. But, actually, I think it’s going to backfire big time. We in the gun rights community actually kind of welcome this data. I do. I welcome the data, and it saves us from having to do a Freedom of Information Act request. Thank you, Attorney General, for providing it.

Evan Nappen 02:15
You may get a kick out of looking at it. It’s interesting. It lists by county. It lists approvals and denials and gives a basis for denial. It also lists race. Oh, yeah. So, you can see the institutionalized discrimination for yourself in terms of the denials and approvals. It’s pretty good. It also shows how many Permits to Carry have been issued since the Bruen decision. You know, since the regaining of the right to carry in New Jersey, thanks to the U.S. Supreme Court Bruen decision and the great, we like to call St. Thomas, who wrote the majority opinion there. Now that our right to keep and bear arms has been extended to apply to a right to carry a handgun outside our home for self-defense, New Jersey had to finally relent and have a “shall issue” carry permit system. Individuals can actually get a carry permit, which was a virtual impossibility before Bruen, because of the requirement of “justifiable need”. That was their barrier, their trick.

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Evan Nappen 03:41
By requiring “justifiable need”, which was defined by the courts as urgent necessity, and then having to meet a two part test showing that you were subject to serious bodily injury or death, you personally, and that carrying a handgun was the only way to avert that threat, it became a virtual impossibility. You had to show that you needed to use deadly force before you needed to use deadly force. Basically, if you had been shot and killed, you now qualified for a carry license. Congratulations! That’s how it used to work under the old law. The new law has gotten rid of justifiable need, and individuals can now get permits.

Evan Nappen 04:19
So, the new tact that the anti-Second Amendment Government, the Imperial Government, is trying to do to still limit our rights, even though they’re forced to issue permits. It’s trying to limit where you can use the carry permit. And that battle is ongoing in the courts now to go at their so-called “sensitive places” and other restrictions that unreasonably limit our Constitutional right.

Evan Nappen 04:19
Well, anyway, a lot has happened since that change of removing “justifiable need”. I think it’s very interesting looking at these statistics to see exactly what happened. Prior to the Bruen decision, there were approximately 600 Permits to Carry a handgun for the entire state of New Jersey. That’s right, 600 or so. And those civilian carries were, you know, mostly those that were either mobsters or politicians or both. Not everybody, but there was a good percentage. And it was about as corrupt as you can get unbelievably corrupt. Unless you were connected politically or otherwise, it wasn’t really going to happen. It was very tough to try to meet that outrageous standard. It was a virtual impossibility, although I was able to do it for a number of clients. But it was just something that an average individual would not even try because the odds of winning were so stacked against you.

Evan Nappen 05:52
So, after the Bruen decision, guess how many Permits to Carry have already been issued? This is just a very short period of time. Apparently, 33,000 carry permits now exist, and the number is growing every day. Thirty-three thousand folks. From 600 to 33,000. That is a 5,400% increase. That’s right. A 5,400% increase in carry permits. Think of how many people were denied their rights, for at least 50 years, by the Imperial New Jersey Government. Wanting to stop us from exercising our Constitutional right to keep bear arms and forcing us to remain victims instead of defenders. Just think how many over the last 50 years. Even if it was just 33,000, in every one of those years, it’s somewhere over 1.5 million licensees denied. And that’s I’m sure small and not even how many individuals just got discouraged and never bothered to even apply. It’s just outrageous to think that for half a century New Jersey has gotten away with crushing its citizens’ rights. It should be an absolute embarrassment, and New Jersey should be ashamed of itself.

Evan Nappen 07:32
But, instead, it revels in its shame, and it tries to continue with its shameful acts by doing everything in its power to curtail the Second Amendment instead of gloriously trying to expand and protect our rights. It’s constantly trying to restrict us and take away rights and disenfranchise gun owners. I experience and see this all the time. So, we’re still in this battle. But it’s really astounding to look at the dramatic

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increase of how many people now have carry permits. Those are folks that have gone through the entire New Jersey Permit to Carry system, and even though it is a “shall issue”, it is still far from simple. It’s not Constitutional carry, that’s for sure. You can’t just carry without a permission slip. No, you have to go through the whole application process, fingerprints and photographs, and take your CCARE course, so you are qualified and understand and pass and certify on the laws etc. You have to go through all that and pay the fee, which isn’t cheap, $200 bucks now. All those folks have done that already. They’re the most outstanding group of law-abiding citizens in New Jersey when you think about what they’ve gone through to get that carry permit. And it is growing every day. It is critical.

Evan Nappen 09:04
I’m glad that those statistics are out there because it’s very useful. Now it is done anonymously. Individuals are not listed as to who got approved or denied or anything like that. Just their race criteria, which is actually welcome, because it really shows the racism of New Jersey’s gun laws. Take a look at the stats. You’ll see it for yourself. It shows the tremendous growth in individuals exercising their rights, but that’s not all the news that the Attorney General released. The Attorney General also announced that New Jersey will be providing signs, kind of sticker type signs to businesses that want to say no guns allowed in their business. (https://www.njoag.gov/attorney-general-platkin-office-of-justice-data- launch-permit-to-carry-dashboard/) That’s right. New Jersey, on your taxpayer dime, will provide these to businesses so they can stop individuals, licensed law-abiding individuals, who’ve gone through all that they put in that law to get the ability to carry, to stop them from going into their place of business by putting the signs up that New Jersey is happy to supply.

Evan Nappen 10:19
Now, of course, New Jersey is not supplying signs that say, “guns are welcome”. We want you to carry a gun, if you’re licensed to do so, in our store. Now, to be fair, the State should offer both signs. I mean, let’s face it. Why are they only offering the one to curtail our rights when many, many businesses, probably more businesses would be happy to put up a sign welcoming gun owners than not? But New Jersey doesn’t do that. They don’t provide the free signs to those places that want trained, armed citizens in their store that can actually protect themselves and others and create a discouragement to the bad guys. Instead, if a business is foolish enough, is stupid enough, to put a “no guns sign” on their business, well, first of all, if you’re a gun owner, a Second Amendment advocate, you should not give that commercial establishment any business whatsoever. You should never walk in there, whether you’re carrying a gun or not, and spend a dime.

Evan Nappen 11:40
Because not only are they not respecting our Second Amendment rights, but any business that stupid is basically saying to criminals, hey, we don’t want any guns here. We don’t have any guns here. They’re inviting problems to come. No criminal is going to look at a sign and say, oh my gosh, no guns, I better not bring my gun in there to rob the place. Or to create mayhem with my gun. Because there’s a sign. There’s a sign that says no guns. Yeah, criminals just see signs and that’s it. They just obey them, right? No, it’s the opposite. They see that sign and they say, ah, easy pickings. It’s like animals in the wild. They don’t attack the strongest. They attack the weakest prey. They go for the weakest. When you are publicly announcing your stupidity of being disarmed and weak, you’re asking for the predators to come at you.

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Evan Nappen 12:47
As law-abiding gun owners, we want to avoid situations where there’s an attraction to criminal predators. My gun is carried to protect myself and my loved ones if I’m put in that situation, but I’m sure going to avoid a situation where the odds are dramatically increased. I have a choice not to go there. No less spend money there. No less give my business there. So, any store, any commercial spot that puts one of those signs up, you stay away. You don’t want to increase your danger. The public should know that those stores are more dangerous, because they have that sign. They are more likely to be hit by violent crime, not less likely – more likely. So, that’s what that sign does. If they really want public safety to be improved, they should offer the other sign. The sign that will discourage criminals and violent crime. The sign that will encourage law-abiding citizens to give their business to the store. The sign that says we believe in the Constitution. We believe in our rights and your rights, and we respect it. Now, look, if you’re a business and you want to put that sign up, it’d be a good idea. You should do it. You should do it whether the Government is willing to give you a free sign or not, because that’s how you make yourself safer, protect your customers, and show your respect for the Constitution.

Evan Nappen 14:22
So, I have some more important news, and it actually goes to one of the letters that I received. It goes to, in fact, an Ask Evan, and let me find it right now. It is a good letter that is asking about newsworthy events. What is asked has to do with where we are in terms of our litigation that is ongoing, and I have some exciting news. The person wants to know what is going on with the litigation over assault firearms and over the large capacity magazine ban. We’re in federal court on that very thing, and it is the state Association that is litigating these issues. The good news is that in April, there will be arguments on the summary judgment motion. This is a critical step. At this summary judgment motion in federal court, we could get a decision that knocks out both the so-called assault firearm ban, which, of course, is just modern sporting rifles, or the so-called large capacity magazine ban, which is simply a standard capacity magazine ban. And that summary judgment can have great impact. I am really looking forward to the arguments being done by my colleague and friend, Dan Schmutter. He’ll be going in to argue on the summary judgment motions on the litigation that is challenging those laws under the Second Amendment. So, that’s good stuff.

Evan Nappen 16:38
And that’s one of the reasons why every one of you needs to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That is ANJRPC.org. They are the gun rights group for New Jersey, the premier group, and the state NRA affiliate. They are the umbrella organization of gun clubs, and you can become an individual member. It’s critical that you are a member. You will get updates. You’ll get updates on the litigation. You’ll be right up there, first to know, by getting the email alerts. They also let you know what’s going on in Trenton. What shenanigans they may be trying to pull to further turn us into criminals and disenfranchise us of our gun rights and all the other great stuff they do in the name of public safety. How nice. Oh, we must go after the guns. You know we have to. It’s all about gun safety. Yeah, right. Gun Safety. What a joke. The day they actually pass an actual gun safety law would really be shocking. Instead, we just pass gun bans, and we put this label on them of gun safety. That’s how we sell it to the dummies, and it works great. Yeah, well, anyway. The point is the Association is where you want to be. Make sure you join. Make sure you become part of the solution, not the problem. Show

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your support as we battle the forces of evil because basically, they are evil in what they’re doing. Anything going against our rights, trying to stop the Constitution, and curtail our ability to defend ourselves, such a fundamental right, is evil. So, help fight evil. Join the state gun rights group, the premier group, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. (anjrpc.org)

Evan Nappen 18:42
Let me tell you also about our good friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood, and they are a fantastic range. That’s where I got my carry certification, my CCARE, and so did my brother and my son. So did many other friends and listeners. Everybody loves WeShoot. It’s a great indoor range in Lakewood and a great training facility. It’s so convenient to Central Jersey right there. And boy we need our ranges. You need to support our ranges, particularly the indoor ranges so that we have a place to shoot. Because without a place to shoot, it gets really tough to be a gun owner and enjoy our guns. WeShoot is a great resource and is a big plus to the community. And boy they reach out to the community like wonderful. It’s just wonderful how they do it. They have great programs and great training. I guarantee if you go down there, you’re going to love WeShoot. So, check out their website at weshootusa.com. That’s their website. They have great photography. Go there and tell them you are a listener to Gun Lawyer. They will take care of you, and you will be treated like family. And I mean that. They really are like that. It’s not just, you know, talk. It’s for real. Check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 20:19
By the way, this is where I shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law. The Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format. If you don’t own a copy yet, I have to say why don’t you own a copy? I mean, I talk to folks all the time. And they’re like, oh, man, I meant to buy the book. But thanks for helping me. I’m happy to talk to you. But then they’re like, I’m buying the book right now, I don’t know why. You better get the book. This book is your guide. It’s what will help you navigate New Jersey gun laws. I wrote it to be user friendly and to protect gun owners from this ridiculous insane matrix of Jersey gun laws so that you can navigate it safely. Get the book. You’ll be glad you did. On the front cover is a QR code to scan and boom, you can subscribe, for free, 100% free, to all the updates. You get access to the archives and new updates all for free. This way, when laws change, you’re going to get notice from me, and you’re going to be able to keep your book current. Once you get the book, it stays current. So, hit that QR code. You’ll know what you need to know to protect yourself and remain a law-abiding gun owner in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 21:44
So, let’s take a look at some of these really great letters that came in. I’m really happy about them. Here’s an interesting one, and this is from Don. Don says first and foremost let me thank you for all you do for our 2A rights in this oppressive state. Well, my pleasure, Don. I have your gun law Bible and even bought a copy for my cousin when he got into firearms because it’s such an invaluable resource. I listen to your show regularly and appreciate your time and efforts. Regarding belt fed ARs in New Jersey, specifically he’s talking about a Fightlite MCR. The manufacturer’s website says this product is restricted for sale in New Jersey. Is that likely their policy so they don’t risk dealing with the state in a potential lawsuit or is it illegal to own a firearm that is capable of accepting an ammunition belt as a feeding source? Subsequently, as the mag capacity wording reads, am I correct if someone

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hypothetically has belted ammo linked in a capacity greater than 10 rounds, and it is not contained in anything like a box, bag, pouch, or container of any sort, they would not be in violation of the ban? But as soon as they put the ammo into a bag to bring it to the range, they would be found in violation. If I’m understanding correctly, they would be able to leave that ammo belted in whatever capacity and hang it in a closet, but it would need to be broken down into 10 round belts. Thank you again for your time and support in all things 2A in Jersey.

Evan Nappen 23:11
Well, thank you, Don. Let’s talk about belt feds. New Jersey’s assault firearm law does not talk about belt fed firearms at all. It talks about semi-automatic firearms. If we’re talking about substantially identical now, semi-automatic firearms that accept a detachable magazine. So, first of all, is a belt fed gun, a detachable magazine? Well, a belt isn’t a magazine. It isn’t a magazine. It’s a belt. When you go to New Jersey’s definition of large capacity magazine, it specifically defines it as any box, tube, container or drum. Box, tube, container, or drum. There is no mention of belts. You’d really have to stretch it to say the belt is a container. It’s not a container. It’s a belt. Since belts are not a box, tube, container, or drum, then belts aren’t large capacity magazines. Now, there has been word, and I’ve heard it as well, that if you have a belt and it holds 10 rounds or less then you’re perfectly fine. And I guess if you have a belt that holds 10 rounds or less, you are perfectly fine because even if they bend over and do backflips to try to somehow say that belts are magazines, then your “magazine” isn’t over 10 rounds. Right? I happen to disagree that belts are even magazines at all.

Evan Nappen 24:54
But the problem can be that if you put the belt in a container, aha, now, it can be a problem. Because now that container is arguably holding the belt that feeds continuously and directly into the firearm. But without the container, it’s not contained by anything. It’s just hanging by a belt. But many belt feds feed from a container. So, if your belt is feeding from a container, even, arguably, an open ammo can where the belt is feeding out of it, you can say, well, then that container is acting as a drum because it feeds continuously and directly with over the 10 rounds. This is where it gets messy and vague and ridiculous. As far as a belt fed firearm being prohibited, you’re going to have to see if it is a semi- automatic firearm that uses a detachable magazine. Again, we can debate whether it does or doesn’t.

Evan Nappen 25:56
Then does it have the offending features that we’ve reviewed many times under the Attorney General guidelines? Those offending features are: does it have a flash suppressor or threaded muzzle, or does it have a bayonet mount, or does it have a pistol grip? Or a folding or telescoping stock? Or, of course, the ever popular, grenade launcher. So, if it has any more than one of those offending features, then you have a problem. So, if any of you are going out grenade launching this weekend, make sure that’s the only offending feature on your gun. Because New Jersey will otherwise try to claim that it’s an assault firearm if you have more than one of those intrinsically evil, nasty features. So, be careful. But that would be the criteria that you would apply in determining whether that belt fed is in fact prohibited or not.

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Evan Nappen 27:00
Hey, here’s a great question from Steve. Steve wants to know regarding making OOS purchase legal in Jersey. OOS purchase. At first, I was thinking, I know the O S S, but that would be World War II spy stuff. But I know what he means by OOS. He means out-of-state purchase. Is an out-of-state purchase legal in New Jersey? Well, here’s what he asked. I have asked this once before. Is there a way to make legal in New Jersey a handgun that I purchased legally in Florida? Florida is my dual residence state. New Jersey is my main home. My New Jersey FID was issued in 2006, and I’ll skip the town. It’s still current on my driver’s license, voter registration, and tax returns. I would like to use this handgun for carry in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 27:59
The answer is no problem, Steve. Because federal law recognizes dual residency for handgun purchase. It’s in the CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) of the Federal Code, and it’s in my book under out-of-state purchase. I give you the code right there. During the time that Steve resides in Florida at his other home, like weekends or the winter months, he’s deemed a resident of Florida. He can buy handguns in Florida under Florida law and federal law. Then he can bring those guns back to New Jersey because he can possess them under the exemptions like any other handgun. There is no requirement that they be registered in New Jersey. None. Because he’s a resident of New Jersey, and he’s not a new resident where registration is required. He’s a dual resident. So, there’s no registration required. You can possess them. Now he says, can I carry them? Well, yes, but that would mean you’d have to put that gun on the carry permit form that you intend to carry it. You would be by de facto registering a gun in New Jersey that you didn’t have to register in New Jersey. Now you’ve created a registration document of that make, model, and serial number, etc. So, you may not want to actually carry that gun in Jersey, but it’s not unlawful for you to bring it back as long as it’s not otherwise prohibited. You can’t bring in an assault pistol, a prohibited firearm. But as long as it’s a handgun, it’s not prohibited, and you don’t have a magazine over 10 rounds, until the Association wins its case, then that’s fine. Dual residency is legal, and it is acknowledged and accepted under the federal law by the Code of Federal Regulations. Just go to my book, and you can see it in black and white. So, thanks, Steve. Thanks for the great question there.

Evan Nappen 30:09
Now, Sam says the following. I recently took a long range shooting course in Alabama. I would like to buy one of their long range rifles. It has a suppressor on it. I’m a New Jersey resident and would like to have this gun for hunting out west. Is it legal for me to own this gun for use in another state? Now the problem is the gun is legal because you can own a long range rifle, unless it’s one of the dreaded, intrinsically evil, so-called assault firearms. As long as it’s like a bolt action, long range rifle, no problem. But make sure it’s not 50 BMG because that is separately prohibited in Jersey. Assuming it’s just a decent long range rifle, that’s no problem. The problem is the suppressor because New Jersey flat out bans possession of the suppressor. You cannot have a silencer or suppressor in Jersey. Even though federal law allows for the purchase, New Jersey does not. Federal law would then prohibit you from getting your NFA approved because you’re in a state where you can’t have it. So, unfortunately, until New Jersey removes the ban on suppressors, you cannot have the long range rifle with the suppressor. You can have the rifle but not the silencer.

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Evan Nappen 31:37
And it’s a shame because suppressors and silencers are hearing protection. They’re great for hearing protection. Can you imagine if all our cars were required not to have mufflers? Oh, yeah, that’s how it should be. Because look a criminal, if they’re going to rob a bank, we don’t want them to get away quietly. We want to hear that muffler. Well, that’s the logic applied to guns, and it’s about as stupid as it gets. You need suppressors, because not only does it stop the excessive sound, but it also removes a lot of the flash and recoil. It makes shooting a pleasure and allows for hunters to hunt game and listen without having to have heavy duty ear protection when they’re hunting. You can listen to the game and be able to shoot. This is something that even in Europe where they are so crazy anti-gun, they mandate suppressors at a lot of the ranges. They mandate suppressors on shotguns. They’re required because they don’t want the noise pollution. They don’t want the hearing damage. But New Jersey, of course, is never logical or reasonable. In fact, it’s banned. Unfortunately, no suppressors in New Jersey at this time.

Evan Nappen 32:59
I have a great letter here from Rich, and Rich says thank you for the excellent education you provide about New Jersey gun law. I’ve listened to every episode. I have a few questions that would be interesting on air. So, first question he asked, last week you mentioned you can purchase a black powder revolver out of state that is deemed not a modern firearm. For example, the Remington 1858 or Colt Navy 1851. Do these revolvers have to be actual antiques? Or is a reproduction of an 1858 considered not a modern handgun even though it’s brand new? Do they have to be exact replicas? Any black powder handguns new or old is not modern?

Evan Nappen 33:36
It can absolutely be a replica. It does not have to be an actual antique. It goes to the mechanism. If it

fires by percussion or flintlock, then it is black powder, and it is not covered by federal law. So, you can have modern black powder firearms that fire by percussion. You can have a Remington 1858, or you can have their modern made that are not based on even trying to replicate a gun of the past. For example, the North American Arms mini revolver is made in a black powder. At least they did. I don’t know if they still do, but they did make a black powder mini revolver that you can buy. It looks just like the .22 version, the .22 Long Rifle version, but it is strictly made to fire black powder with a percussion cap charge. Yet there it is – a mini revolver. It’s not made to be a replica of any prior existing gun although they did have small revolvers in the old days. There’s no question about it. But that model is unique to North American Arms, and it’s pretty cool. So, you could have that as well and that’s not a problem.

Evan Nappen 35:09
It does not have to be an authentic actual antique. As a matter of fact, I would not advise shooting authentic actual antiques, despite what you may see on like Pawn Stars where every antique gun that comes in, they have to shoot. I mean, it’s nuts. Don’t shoot them, okay? The steel, the metallurgy of the day, plus over time, there can be carbon deposit, rust, and other things. I mean, man, it just crazy. Don’t do that unless it’s absolutely certified by a gunsmith and checked out thoroughly. I would not be shooting those guns, although I’m sure many are safe to do so. But why are you doing that to an antique anyway? Why are you doing that? Why are you risking its destruction or danger to yourself by

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shooting it? It needs to be appreciated for the historic value that it has. The modern made replicas are stronger, have even better steel, and are even higher quality. So, when you’re shooting a replica, you’re actually shooting a gun that was made better than the original anyway. They’re safe and certified, you know, made by any modern major producer. That’s really the better way to go. So not a problem for the black powder gun issue.

Evan Nappen 36:43
Then, Rich asks, can you shed some light on the details of carrying a handgun with a Permit to Carry in relation to businesses that post a gun free location sticker? So, we talked about this free sticker. You know, the sign? We don’t want any guns here except for criminals carrying them creating havoc because law-abiding citizens will obey signs and criminals won’t. What if you see that? Can you still go into that store? Is it prohibited? What’s the deal? Well, it’s not a sensitive place, currently, if it is open to the public. It doesn’t matter if it has a sign. It doesn’t make it a sensitive place if it’s open to the public. That doesn’t trigger a sensitive place. But what it does do is create a trespassing situation. In the same way as some establishments prohibit someone from having a dog in there, or things like that, they can say we don’t want you with your gun. Then you could face a trespassing charge for not obeying their wishes, especially if you’re told to leave and then you don’t. That’s defined trespassing. So, if you see the no gun signs, absolutely honor those signs, folks. Honor them with zest and passion. Say I will not spend my money, and I will not go in that store. You will not get my business. I’m not going to put myself in further danger because you’re encouraging criminals and violent crime to hit your store by saying no guns. No, I’m not going there. Don’t do it. Don’t give them your money. And don’t endanger yourself by going to any store foolish enough to have one of those signs.

Evan Nappen 38:41
Then three, I have not heard any of your shows talk about bulletproof vests. Okay. Let me tell you about bulletproof vests. Bulletproof vests are lots of fun, and New Jersey allows bulletproof vests. Let me just tell you about the law in Jersey. Rich says, in his question, I understand it has to be registered with the state. What is the process for registration? And does it need to be transported in a lock box or other such silliness? The answer is they don’t need to be registered, and they don’t need to be transported in a lockbox. What you may have heard was a bill that was proposed and it’s still out there to be voted on, but it has not passed to require registration and restrictions on vests, etc. But that bill has not passed. The law in New Jersey, which you can find under N.J.S. 2C:39-13, and what they’re talking about is bullet resistant body armor. As long as you’re not engaging in or attempting to commit or fleeing the scene after committing murder, manslaughter, robbery, sexual assault, burglary, kidnapping, criminal escape or assault, then you’re okay to have a vest. You cannot wear a vest while committing or attempting to commit a crime of the first degree or the second degree. You’re lawful as long as you’re not attempting to commit or flee the scene after committing a crime. There is no prohibition on bulletproof vests other than not wearing it to commit a crime or fleeing the scene of a crime, etc. That’s the limitation.

Evan Nappen 40:37
The other legislation has not passed. Although Jersey, I’m sure, may try to do that. They not only want us to be victims and defenseless, but they also want us to be even more vulnerable to criminals’ guns. So that only the criminals have guns, and you can’t even have a vest to protect yourself unless again,

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registration you know, big brother, always there registration. Good thing that vest was registered. What does that have to do with anything? Come on. It’s just more intrusions and more turning law-abiding citizens into victims. It’s just never ending with New Jersey and their schemes and things they can intrude on our rights with. It’s crazy.

Evan Nappen 41:31
Now let’s talk about the GOFU, one of our favorite segments, GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up of the week. This GOFU is a little different. Because this one isn’t necessarily a GOFU on the gun owner. But it sure is a GOFU on the police who are acting as issuing authorities. The letter I received said, I applied for my CCW, of course, you meant a PTC, Permit to Carry, and put on his application that he wants to carry the Ruger-5.7 handgun. The Ruger-5.7, if you are familiar with the 5.7, it’s similar to same round that the FN Five-seven, etc. Five-7 is a caliber of a cartridge. Get ready for this, folks. The detective where he applied told him he could not carry it due to the round can pierce body armor. Oh, my god. And if a LEO wanted to carry it, they would have to qualify with it every three months. He could not get clarification from New Jersey State Police or the Attorney General on this firearm. I told him it’s different for a civilian. It is a New Jersey acquired firearm and is legal to own and have.

Evan Nappen 43:10
Okay, folks, can you believe this? They are now attempting to deny a carry because the person wants to carry the Ruger-5.7 handgun because it fires a round that can penetrate body armor. Really? Really? Except it doesn’t. It doesn’t because the armor piercing ammunition is banned federally and banned statewide. You cannot lawfully purchase armor piercing ammo for the 5.7. The gun is a gun. Armor piercing ammo is a whole other story. Look, you can buy armor piercing ammo for any gun and that’s unlawful. It doesn’t matter if you have AP ammo for your 9mm. That’s unlawful ammo. If you have AP ammo for your .45, or you have AP ammo for any handgun. AP ammo, Armor Piercing ammo, is prohibited under New Jersey State law and prohibited under federal law. The 5.7 by itself is not armor piercing. It’s not.

Evan Nappen 44:33
Yet, here is somebody who is facing potential denial of their Permit to Carry because this detective has some media view, some absolute false view, based on media hype from the Imperial Media about armor piercing ammunition, and the 5.7 is a vest popper, a cop killer. No, only if it’s got AP ammo, which you can’t buy and can’t legally have. It’s banned federally and state. So, the gun of choice that is lawful for the person to have, the handgun that is legal in Jersey for the person, is legal for them to carry, and if they put it on their permit or put it on the form, they’ve met their obligation. It’s not a basis to deny a permit to carry. That is a GOFU on the part of this issuing authority or the one doing the investigation. That’s what it is. Hopefully, they’ll come to their senses and realize that denying the PTC for this will cost them a legal action over its absurdity. Then they can be on the stand under oath explaining how the 5.7 with civilian ammunition is a., armor piercing and b., a basis to deny a carry permit. I’m looking forward to that, if they actually want to go that far with this. So, folks, this is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

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Speaker 3 46:45
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E178_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 177-18-year-olds can get carry permits in NJAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 177SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, law, firearm, state, handgun, gun, pennsylvania, evan, carry, magazines, carry permit, lakewood, legal advice, prohibits, attorneys, resident, check, call, mags, new jersey’s

SPEAKERS

Speaker 2, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, we have a bit of news here that I want to share. I don’t know if you’re aware or not, but New Jersey is part of the Third Circuit under the Federal Circuits, and the Third Circuit Court of Appeals struck down Pennsylvania laws that ban 18 to 20 year olds from carrying firearms in public during a state of emergency. This ruling, of course, is part of the power of the magnificent Bruen decision by St. Thomas, you know, Justice (Clarence) Thomas, and it’s having a good effect. This case is actually at the appellate level. So even higher than the circuit court level. Now, the parties to that law, the Government, who’s never likes it when one of their laws is struck down and people gain freedom, even in Pennsylvania, they’re looking to try to get a rehearing of the full court to hear it. But right now, it is a win both in the trial court and the appellate court.

Evan Nappen 01:40

So, one of the questions is, does this have any effect on New Jersey? And you bet it does. And actually, it only enhances what is already the law that you may find somewhat surprising. You see, New Jersey’s carry permit law does not have an age restriction, limiting individuals to having to be 21 years old. Under New Jersey’s carry law, an 18 year old or older, can apply for a carry license. And if that person is even attempted to be denied, because they’re under 21, well, here we have a federal court decision right in the circuit, our circuit. It says that law, similar to the law that Pennsylvania has, is unconstitutional.

Evan Nappen 02:39

But we don’t even have to necessarily reach the constitutionality aspect of it. Because unlike the Permit to Purchase a Handgun, the Permit to Carry a handgun under N.J.S. 2C:58-4 does not have an age restriction. So, if you are under 18, I mean, if you’re 18 or over, not under 18, you don’t want to go there. But if you’re 18 or over, an adult under the law, you can apply for a carry in New Jersey. Frankly, that’s how it has been, basically, since Jersey had a carry law. You could simply be 18. There were many folks that I recall, who worked in security that were over 18, and they were able to even get carry permits in the bad ole days. And that didn’t change. What can become a question is, well, how do I acquire a gun? I’m going to talk to you about that in a moment. But as far as applying, in order to apply, let’s talk about that. You’re going to need, of course, your photo, and you’re going to need your prints or your SBI number. You can get your Firearms ID Card at 18. So, you can get that, no problem. Page – 2 – of 7

Evan Nappen 04:02

Then you’re going to have to pass CCARE, which is the core competency qualification, and you do not need to own a firearm in order to pass CCARE. You can take CCARE at any of the ranges that have the instructors, particularly WeShoot by the way in Lakewood offers this, as long as you’re 18 or over. You can take the course, and you can even rent firearms. You specifically can rent, temporarily possess and rent a firearm, specifically under New Jersey law. You can find that with under N.J.S. 2C:58-3.1, where it says that an individual can be temporarily transferred not only a rifle or shotgun, but it actually specifically says handgun there by that licensed dealer. Under another section right after that, N.J.S. 2C:58 Dash-3.2, you can also be 18 or older and get training and temporarily possess while training. So, the law does not prohibit somebody who is 18 or older from temporarily being transferred a firearm or being trained with a firearm, in this case, specifically a handgun. So, you can pass your CCARE without having to actually own or possess the handgun. In order to get this process going, you can do that, and I would highly recommend that you check out WeShoot and take one of their classes and get your CCARE certification.

Evan Nappen 05:53

Now once you have a carry, some of you may say, well, okay, but how do I get a handgun if you’re 18 or older? Federal law prohibits, currently, a dealer from selling a handgun to somebody who’s under 21. Now I happen to believe that that law is probably going to get tossed because they already have these decisions challenging state laws that have such restrictions. But for now, a dealer is still bound by the Federal law that prohibits a dealer from selling a gun to someone who is under 21, and New Jersey state law prohibits someone who’s under 21 from getting a pistol purchase permit. Now, are there any loopholes around that? The answer is yes, there are.

Evan Nappen 06:54

One such loophole would be if you inherited the handgun. With inheritance, there’s no paperwork, registration or anything like that. If you’ve inherited a handgun and you are over 18, you are 18 or older, and you’ve inherited that handgun, lawfully by way of inheritance, then you can utilize that handgun to carry. You can put that firearm on your application where it asks to list the gun that you intend to carry. You also could possess a handgun, if you lawfully resided in a state outside of New Jersey, in which there was no prohibition on individuals from making a private sale to you in that state when you were 18 or older. So, if you lawfully acquired that handgun in another jurisdiction and then you came to New Jersey with it, that handgun is still lawfully yours to possess. You do not need to be 21 to possess a handgun. So, that’s another way to have a handgun that you could carry.

Evan Nappen 08:05

The other way is very interesting. You could go outside of New Jersey. You have to physically go there, let’s say to Pennsylvania, and you can buy a black powder revolver, like a Remington 1858 revolver, for example. If you buy these specific models, there are conversion cylinders that convert a black powder firearm to a cartridge firing firearm. So, let’s say you drive to Pennsylvania, and you buy the Remington 1858. It is a Cap and Ball black powder revolver that you’re buying. Now on that purchase outside of New Jersey, you do not need a pistol purchase permit to make that acquisition because the law of New Jersey no longer applies to you. You’re now in the other jurisdiction, in this case, Pennsylvania. You can buy a black powder cap and ball revolver with no problem. You’re an adult. The end. Page – 3 – of 7

Evan Nappen 09:10

Federal law does not consider those to be modern firearms, and Pennsylvania State law doesn’t consider those to be modern firearms. If you make that acquisition outside of New Jersey, you’re lawfully making that acquisition, and then you can bring that handgun back to New Jersey because New Jersey has an exemption that lets you travel from your place of purchase to your home in New Jersey. So, you’re transporting it lawfully. You’ve acquired it legally.

Evan Nappen 09:42

Once you get to New Jersey, you can simply get one of the conversion cylinders. There are various companies. Taylor’s makes a conversion. (https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/shop/firearm-parts-enhancements/conversion-cylinders/1858-remington-parts.html) Kirst makes an excellent conversion. (https://kirstkonverter.com/1858-remington.html) Basically, if it’s a .44 black powder, they have a conversion to .45 Long Colt. If it’s a .36 caliber, they have conversions to .38 caliber. The conversions will let you fire modern cartridge ammunition.

Evan Nappen 10:13

Now, if you’re in New Jersey and you have a percussion Cap and Ball revolver, well, New Jersey views that as a handgun, and a firearm. New Jersey laws are so strict that they don’t exempt from their definition of firearm, antique firearms, Cap and Ball firearms, reproduction of black powder firearms. Under New Jersey law, they are the same. So, if you have a Cap and Ball Civil War revolver, it’s the same as having a Smith and Wesson .500 Magnum in terms of how that firearm is regarded. It is simply a handgun and a firearm. By putting a conversion cylinder in it, you do not change this gun in any way under New Jersey law. Because once it’s a handgun, it’s always a handgun. You’re not manufacturing a handgun. It already was a handgun. All you’re doing is allowing it to accept modern ammunition instead of black powder Cap and Ball ammunition. And that’s fine. You can possess that handgun and use and shoot as you would any other handgun. You do not need a pistol purchase permit for it because it was acquired outside New Jersey. And that is the workaround.

Evan Nappen 11:33

These are three possibilities for someone who is under 21, but over 18, to lawfully have a handgun. You can apply and get your carry permit. It is not only not prohibited under the statute by age, but even if there was such a prohibition, it has been declared unconstitutional in the Third Circuit, in the Pennsylvania case, and it is an appellate case. Now the Government is looking to get that reconsideration so to speak, done. If that’s even granted, then they, of course, have to win. Then this is probably heading to the U.S. Supreme Court as we speak anyway. But having two wins on this, in both the lower court and the appellate court, bodes very well for this issue on the Constitutional side. But like I said, there’s no statutory prohibition. You can of course look at these laws that I’ve pointed out to you in your pursuit of getting a carry permit in New Jersey. Boy, I know that when I was 18, if I had an opportunity to get a carry, then I sure would have, and you can do it now. So, lucky you. That is an avenue that you may very well want to pursue. Page – 4 – of 7

Evan Nappen 13:03

If you choose to pursue it, make sure you give WeShoot a call. They are an indoor range in Lakewood. They have a fantastic facility and have excellent trainers. That’s where I got my CCARE certificate, so did my brother, and so did my son. They’re just great there. You can get that CCARE, which is required to demonstrate your core competency so that you can get your carry license. They have a range, and they also rent firearms, as well. So, you can go there and practice. It is a great facility. It’s really easy to get to. Right off of the parkway there in Lakewood. So easy to get to if you’re in Monmouth County, Ocean County, etc. It’s a great resource. We need our ranges. It’s really important that you give them your business so that we keep these ranges going. Because without a place to shoot, we can’t shoot. So, take advantage of this. Check out WeShoot. Go to their website at weshootusa.com for more information about the great WeShoot range in Lakewood.

Evan Nappen 14:17

As we’re fighting these legal battles, left and right, of course, your guardian standing at your side in New Jersey is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the number one gun rights group that is protecting your rights in New Jersey. They’re the folks that are litigating in Federal court over these issues from assault firearm, so called, which are of course modern sporting rifles, to large capacity magazines, which are really just standard capacity magazines. Also, on the Carry Killer bill that Governor Murphy passed in his hissy fit over the ability to now get carry licenses. All these things are being challenged by the Association. They have a full time paid lobbyist on guard defending us and alerting us to the shenanigans taking place in Trenton. So, by belonging, you’ll get those email alerts, and you’ll get the best gun newsletter in New Jersey that they put out. You’ll be proud to know that you’re a member, and you are part of the solution. Check out anjrpc.org. That’s where you can join and learn all about your state Association, which is the umbrella organization of the gun clubs in New Jersey. And that’s what gives us the force and power to fight these intrusions into our Second Amendment rights.

Evan Nappen 15:51

And to better understand the laws of course, here’s when I shamelessly plug my book, which is New Jersey Gun Law, the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with over 120 topics all in a question and answer format. It is made to be user friendly. It’s a labor of love. We put hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of man hours into this, and it’s now the 25th Anniversary Edition. So, you want to get a copy of this. It’s what’s used by law enforcement and attorneys and judges and, of course, the person who I wrote it for, which is you, the gun owner. It is the key to helping you to navigate the insane matrix of gun laws that New Jersey has erected so that you don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. On the front cover of the book, you’ll see a QR code that you should scan. It is free, for free, and you get to subscribe to the database, the subscriber archive. You will be alerted for any new law changes, usually within 24 hours I get that out. You can get any of the archived updates, so your book stays current. That’s the beauty of it. So, order a book today and keep it current. Subscribe for free to the Subscriber Portal, and you’ll get all the updates so you can stay on top of the laws and not fall into any of Jersey’s traps that they lay for law-abiding citizens. If you want to buy a copy, you can find it at EvanNappen.com. That’s right. That’s my website. It’s easy to remember. EvanNappen.com. Page – 5 – of 7

Evan Nappen 17:33

I’ve received some really interesting letters. I always love to get the Ask Evan letters. And of course, at the end of the show, we will have the GOFU, the ever popular GOFU. In response to last week’s show, I got a number of folks asking questions and providing more information about the Glock 43x magazine problem. As you know, Glock 43x mags that were made prior to September 2023, actually hold 11 rounds instead of 10. Anyone who has one of those magazines is currently in violation of New Jersey’s gun laws. You have a large capacity magazine, and you’re looking at a year and a half in State Prison as a maximum penalty, becoming a convicted felon and losing your gun rights. So, it is a serious issue. You want to make sure none of your mags hold over 10 rounds. No matter what the mags say on them.

Evan Nappen 18:35

Now here’s a letter and this letter is from, let’s see, this is from somebody, Eric. And what Eric says is, good afternoon, Evan. After listening to last week’s podcast, I checked all of my 43X magazines, and they all had the ability to hold 11 rounds. So, there you go. From there I continued to check other Glock magazines and found my G45 magazine to be doing the same thing. It seems to be only the factory Glock 10 round mags and not ones that were higher capacity and blocked. I’ve contacted Glock technical support, and they are replacing all my magazines. I would suggest anyone who has a factory 10 round Glock mag to check them regardless of model. So, there’s what Eric has to say.

Evan Nappen 19:27

Then Keith wrote, regarding the ETS Group, Glock 43X 10 round mags. Evan, not really a question but I wanted to share. Well, that’s always good. We like to share information with our listeners. Not sure if anyone has brought this up or not, but since your episode about the Glock 43X factory magazines holding an additional round past 10, I checked and sure enough it held 11 rounds. I ordered two new magazines from a maker called ETS Group. They specifically said their 10 round magazines. It even states it on the package. Come to find out they actually hold 12 rounds. How nice. WTF! Lesson learned. To all the 43X owners out there, don’t skimp on mags. Buy factory ones after the fix. Hopefully this helps someone. Thanks. Well, thanks, Keith. That’s a good warning. Watch out for the ETS mags that claim to be 10 but hold 12, according to Keith. So, this is a treacherous area and a difficult situation. If you want to hear a fuller explanation of the pitfalls and problems, listen to last week’s show. (Gun Lawyer – Episode 176) But it does illustrate that this is widespread.

Evan Nappen 20:58

Individuals that have a magazine that’s over the amount of rounds, not only could you get charged, but also, if you end up in a justified self-defense shooting and they find out that your magazine was prohibited and you are breaking the law, that’s not going to do you any favors in your case. It’s going to be a problem. So, you don’t want to have that problem. You want to make sure that your magazines do not hold over 10, at this time, until the Association is successful, and I honestly believe they will be in the elimination of New Jersey’s standard capacity magazine ban. It currently has one foot in the grave on the Constitutional challenge being brought and litigated by the Association. But until that time, it is the law, and you don’t want to have a problem at any time with New Jersey gun law. Page – 6 – of 7

Evan Nappen 22:01

Now I have a letter from Renee, and Renee says, regarding constitutional carry. First of all, awesome show. I listen to it every week. Thanks. Well, I appreciate that, Renee. In states with Constitutional carry, does it only apply to residents of that state? Now, for the most part, Constitutional carry applies to any person who’s not otherwise a prohibited person, per se, like a convicted felon or somebody like that. Now, if there are some states that have resident only restrictions, you need to check before you travel to that specific state that you’re going to. Make sure that it doesn’t have residency only, but most of them are not resident only. Most are just if you’re a law-abiding person, you do not need a permission slip to carry your gun. And that’s what Constitutional carry is all about. As a matter of fact, if they did distinguish between residents and non-residents, it sounds to me like that itself is grounds for a separate Constitutional challenge of equal protection.

Evan Nappen 23:15

It is always good to check and make sure that the state(s) that you’re traveling to are good to go for either Constitutional carry or for reciprocity with states regarding the licenses that you may have. Now, there are many states that have reciprocity. But there are states, including Pennsylvania, for example, that require that your carry permit be issued to you as a resident of your home state. So, a non-resident carry in Pennsylvania, in which they may recognize it, for example, Florida. If you have a Florida carry permit as a New Jersey resident, you cannot carry in Pennsylvania, even though they recognize Florida’s license because they only recognize it for residents of Florida. If you’re going to get the protection of reciprocity when dealing with permits, then you had better be a resident permit holder in those states.

Evan Nappen 24:35

So, you need to thoroughly check these things out before you travel. Make sure you get this confirmed by an attorney or from an official source. One of the things you can do is you can go online, and you can contact the Attorney General or the State Police of that state. You can ask them or talk to an attorney that practices gun law in those states. Some of you may have access to attorneys like that. You want to make sure that you do that. Because you could become a GOFU if you fail to do your recon. You’ve got to make sure that the carry you have is accepted in that state. Or if it’s a Constitutional carry state, are there any other restrictions? Also keep in mind that when you’re in those states, you’re restricted by the restrictions of that state. So, if that state restricts you going into a house of worship with your carry gun, you cannot carry your handgun in a house of worship. New Jersey, by the way, does not restrict you from your house of worship with a carry gun. When in Rome, you do as the Romans do. And that’s what you must do. You must make sure you abide by the laws of the state that you’re in. Again, another possible GOFU that you don’t want to commit.

Evan Nappen 26:07

Speaking of GOFUs, this week’s GOFU is something that I encounter all the time. When it comes up, I’m always shaking my head. Oh, man, why is this, why is this. Our GOFU, in case you didn’t know is a Gun Owner Fuck Up, and we call it GOFU because that’s what they are. This word has taken root, taken hold. It’s known now in our culture that these are mistakes that gun owners make, and I don’t want you to make them. These are expensive lessons that you get to learn on the cheap by listening to the show. The one I’m talking about today is this. Do not ask police for gun law advice. Oh, my God. Page – 7 – of 7

Don’t ask the police for legal advice. I made a deal a while ago with the police, but they don’t seem to be sticking to it. And what I said was, if they promised not to give legal advice, I promise not to arrest anybody. How’s that for a deal?

Evan Nappen 27:14

But instead, I constantly get folks that call and say, well, I asked the local police or the State Police or this guy. I asked this officer or that officer, and they said this or that. You cannot rely on what the police say except under very narrow circumstances. When the State Police in charge of firearms specifically puts out an opinion or the Attorney General’s Office specifically puts out an opinion, then you actually have what’s called “ignorance or mistake of law defense” because you are relying on an official statement. But short of an official statement, you’re not going to get the protection that you think you have by simply asking a cop whether this is legal or not legal. I hear all the time about things that they say are illegal, and in fact, they’re not. In fact, they’re absolutely not illegal, but for some reason, they think they are. And vice versa. I’ve heard many times where the officer will say that it’s good to go. You’re all right. When in fact, you’re not. And you get jammed up because you listened to that officer. Do you think that officer is going to be coming to court and say, oh, yeah, I told him this wrong advice? Yeah. Tell me about that. Right? Do you think so? I don’t think so. This is why you cannot rely on that response.

Evan Nappen 28:39

Whether it’s the legality of a certain item, or here’s a good one. How to answer a question on a gun application. So many times. Well, I asked the officer, and he said I should write no, even though the answer was yes. Then when you write no, you end up with a problem because there’s somebody new doing the licensing or somebody above got a hold of it, and they don’t care that you’re claiming that this what you supposedly were told to do. You can’t rely on that. And whether you can possess certain things or not. Whether this is an assault firearm or not. Whether, you know, the questions just go on and on. Look, the police have a job to do, and I respect it. But giving legal advice unless they are the agency empowered to do so, like the State Police Firearms Unit, they have no business doing it. And you shouldn’t put any weight or credibility on what they’re saying. They’re not bound in the same way as attorneys are, and they’re not trained the way attorneys are. And they’re sure not Gun Lawyers, so be careful. Beware. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 2 30:00

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E177_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 176-The Brothers Nappen Tell War Stories Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 176SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, denied, doctor, state, law, firearms, carry, case, mental health, matter, firearm, gun owner, misdemeanor, gun, handgun, fees, gun laws, people, dwi, disorderly

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Louis Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:17

Hello, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and today we have a very special guest, someone I’ve known for his entire life. And that is my brother, Louis Nappen, who is also an attorney in my firm. Together, we both worked on a case in which we just won the appeal. It is an outstanding victory and stands for some great principles that you need to know when trying to deal with New Jersey’s absurd gun laws. Lou, welcome to the show.

Louis Nappen 00:59

Hello, and I guess you’re the Gun Lawyer, but I’m a gun lawyer, too.

Evan Nappen 01:03

We have two gun lawyers on Gun Lawyer. We can even call the show gun lawyers.

Louis Nappen 01:08

That’s right.

Evan Nappen 01:09

Because we have plural. We are plural today. Very plural. But, as long as we don’t have pleurisy, we’re good. So, Lou, this case is the Goworek case, G o w o r e k. Why don’t you give us a little overview of what happened to our client?

Louis Nappen 01:36

Okay, first off, I seem to get the cases with the ultimate longest titles ever. I don’t know anybody else who has case hired . . .

Evan Nappen 01:44

Absolutely, read the entire title of this appellate caption, just for the record, because it’s absolutely amazing. Please, read it.

Louis Nappen 01:49

Just like the M.U. case, we call it M.U. for a reason. This is from actually the same courthouse. Same judge. It’s “In the Matter of the Appeal of the Denial of Robert Goworek’s Application for a Firearms Page – 2 – of 16

Purchaser Identification Card and Three Handgun Purchase Permits & In the Matter of the Revocation of Robert Goworek’s Firearms Purchaser Identification Card and Compelling the Sale of His Firearms.” That is the title.

Evan Nappen 01:50

With that caption, you don’t even need an opinion. I think . . .

Louis Nappen 02:23

I think the caption itself. . . I don’t have to tell you the history, I don’t have to tell you what this case is about. Because there it is. Everything.

Evan Nappen 02:30

There it is. Everything you need to know. Now, our client was originally denied by his police chief. And why was he denied, Lou?

Louis Nappen 02:45

Yeah, let me get into this. Okay, so he applied for a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card and three Permits to Purchase a handgun. He was denied based on the fact that he had a 1994, so 30 years ago, he had a DWI out of New York. Otherwise, nothing else on his record. So, 30 years ago,

Louis Nappen 03:17

That’s right.

Evan Nappen 03:17

First of all, even putting that aside for a moment, a DWI in New Jersey is not even a criminal offence, folks.

Evan Nappen 03:17

It’s a motor vehicle violation. But New York grades it as a misdemeanor. Nonetheless, we’re talking about something 30 years ago, and his Chief of Police denied him for that one singular event back in New York decades ago.

Louis Nappen 03:48

That’s right. You know, half a life ago, a youthful indiscretion, whatever it was from 1994. That’s the basis for the denial. And so here we are. He’s a super great person, and this is all that he has. That’s it. And, of course, though, we’re talking about New Jersey. So, they’re looking for reasons to deny, not reasons to approve, and so they denied based on this one issue. In response, what happens in this particular county often, if you are denied a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card, an application for that, then what the State does is it, or a Permit to Purchase, escalates.

Evan Nappen 04:37

Yes, it escalates. Page – 3 – of 16

Louis Nappen 04:37

Yeah, it escalates. The State then motions to revoke your Firearms Purchaser Identification Card. So, in other words, especially if you have one and then you go for permits to purchase handguns because you need that permit for a new handgun. They motion to revoke your Firearms Purchaser Identification Card. Now, this also goes back to the days when we’ve discussed already the M.U. decision. Then they also move to compel moved, they’re not doing it anymore, pretty much.

Evan Nappen 04:39

That was our firm with you with M.U.

Louis Nappen 05:00

They also move to compel the sale of firearms you already possess. Interestingly, now, in this case, a DWI in New York, the one we’re talking about here, wait, punish was

Evan Nappen 05:24

Wait, Lou, before you get there. The actual reason that they were denied was “not in the interest of public health, safety and welfare.” Right?

Louis Nappen 05:35

Yeah,

Evan Nappen 05:35

That was the reason and the

Louis Nappen 05:39

Well, it’s also the fact that

Evan Nappen 05:40

It was one of the reasons given when

Louis Nappen 05:42

That was one of the original reasons given as well, in addition, because that’s the big nebulous catch all.

Evan Nappen 05:49

That’s the all-inclusive weasel clause.

Louis Nappen 05:52

Right.

Evan Nappen 05:52

Any time they want to deny arbitrarily, oh, it’s public health, safety, welfare. Every time. Page – 4 – of 16

Louis Nappen 05:58

So, what happened here, in New York, this would have been punishable, in 1994, by over six months, but not more than a year. He was not punished with that at all. He served no jail time. But at the same time, it would have been, and they determine the level of an offense, and we all know about misdemeanors and felonies, by the amount of time that you potentially could serve in jail. This was not even over a year that was even potential for this particular level of DWI, that’s at issue here. So the

Evan Nappen 06:36

Well, let me just explain. So, the disqualifiers, such as prior convictions, are viewed by their maximum sentence, not by the

Louis Nappen 06:51

Not by the conviction

Evan Nappen 06:52

not by the time the person got or the conviction. But rather, what is the maximum jail that a person could face

Louis Nappen 06:58

right the sentence

Evan Nappen 06:59

on this conviction if the judge decided to give him the absolute maximum sentence. In New Jersey, the levels of offenses are divided between disorderly persons offenses and what New Jersey calls crimes. Now, that gets confusing to folks. But crimes you can essentially think of as felony level offenses, even though New Jersey doesn’t use the word felony

Evan Nappen 07:24

and you could think of disorderly persons offenses as misdemeanor level offenses. But they don’t call them misdemeanors or felonies because that would make it too easy for everybody to understand.

Louis Nappen 07:24

where you could go to state jail

Louis Nappen 07:36

That’s true.

Evan Nappen 07:37

So, what happens is, the maximum penalty in New Jersey for a disorderly person is six months. The offense that’s below disorderly persons, it’s still an offence in New Jersey, is called a petty disorderly persons. That carries a max of 30 days. If you’re convicted in Jersey have of what we call a DP or a PDP, disorderly person or petty disorderly person, then that itself is not a disqualifier, unless it is a domestic violence disorderly person, at which time it falls under the federal law, domestic violence, misdemeanor prohibition and New Jersey’s prohibition on domestic violence convictions. Now, above Page – 5 – of 16

DPs, above the so-called misdemeanor in Jersey, are the crimes. Like I said, crimes are our felony level, think of them as felonies. They run from First Degree to Fourth Degree. With Fourth Degree being the lowest where the maximum jail time is 18 months, or a year and a half, of course, for those of us who do math. It ends up being the minimum felony is that 18 months. Third Degree carries five years, and Second Degree carries 10 years. And first degree carries 20 years as the ordinary term.

Evan Nappen 09:02

So, there’s this gap in New Jersey from six months where it’s considered a misdemeanor, to a year and a half, where it’s considered a felony level offense. For a good long time, New Jersey took the position that if you had any misdemeanor conviction that carried over six months jail, no matter what jurisdiction it occurred in, then they would view that as felony level. Therefore, you’ve been convicted of “a crime” under New Jersey law, and because you’ve been convicted of a crime, you would be disqualified from having a gun license. Yet, Lou, tell us, something changed. What’s changed that made this a victory?

Louis Nappen 09:57

Okay, so he was denied, and we did our part. There’s a whole bunch more to it. But what changed was, if you want to just get cut to the chase, what changed is, in 2022, the legislature changed it so that it has to be punishable by over one year for it to be a crime. What we would consider a crime or a felony, not the six months. So

Evan Nappen 10:26

If it’s an out-of-state conviction and it does not exceed one year, under N.J.S.A. 2C:44-4(c), it would now not be considered a crime. And that is major because so many people have issues in other states, including New York and Pennsylvania, where those states had the standard misdemeanor jail sentence of a max of a year. It’s actually more unusual to find the lower offenses carrying only six months. The normal, if you will, net nationwide for a misdemeanor would be a year. So, lots of folks who were perfectly fine under federal law and under the majority of states, by the way, to have a firearm license, New Jersey was denying. The reason this case is important is because not only does it put it out there finally in the ether, but we’re still getting denials by departments using the six-month standard. They still are not up to speed on this.

Louis Nappen 11:49

That’s absolutely true. They’re not. I’d like to point out that firearm permit applications in New Jersey do not even ask about motor vehicle offenses. They’re not even questions, not even a question on the form. Most people would not even think of that as something that would be needed to be mentioned on a form. It’s like a gotcha if you’ve got a DUI or DWI from out of state in that sense.

Evan Nappen 12:16

New Jersey’s form is full of gotchas, and this is a good example of one. We want our listeners, of course, to be aware of the change in the law. If you are wrongfully denied based on this, give us a call because this is just outrageous,

Louis Nappen 12:41

I would add not only if you’ve been, or if you are, but if you have been in the past. Page – 6 – of 16

Evan Nappen 12:48

excellent point

Louis Nappen 12:50

denied for having something over six months punishable conviction, but under one year. It’s time for you to reapply and get it because you’re not ineligible per se anymore.

Evan Nappen 13:06

Right. And a lot of folks don’t realize that. They think that they’re just screwed, which originally, they were, but they’re not. They can now get licensed in New Jersey. And that also includes non-resident carry licenses. So, even individuals that are out of state, because New Jersey’s shall issue carry license is available to anyone in the U.S. that wishes to get a carry license, you can apply and get it. The application is simply done online at the State Police website. Individuals from out of state will often have to have their records reviewed, and it’s done in this same manner. There are no different criteria applied to non-residents versus residents.

Louis Nappen 14:00

Yeah, I’d like to add now in this particular case, at the trial level, we showed that he has no alcohol or substance abuse issues. He has no public health, safety, or welfare concerns. He was open about what he is, in that sense, with this thing that’s out there. He had nothing but this DUI. Now, of course, we made arguments along with this, but you have to remember this takes time for the process to work through. But we made range. There’s a case out there in the Third Circuit that’s very recent, a Bruen-type argument, although this predates that, of if he does have this, he shouldn’t be denied because it’s what is our interest here. It’s to keep firearms out of a dangerous person’s hands, and he’s not a dangerous person. And we know that

Evan Nappen 14:49

A DWI from 30 years ago doesn’t make you violent. It doesn’t make you have criteria of being an alcoholic. You know there is another great disqualifier that judges like to throw out there. There was no other genuine concern in any way. As a matter of fact, there was no Public Health Safety welfare issue here. But that doesn’t stop them

Louis Nappen 15:11

No, and I’d like to point out this was a person who was acting proactively because he had changed addresses and wanted to make sure that he did the right thing by updating his card. While you’re doing that, you might as well ask for a few more purchase permits with the same criteria at that time. So, here’s somebody who’s doing the right thing, updating his card, and this is the response he gets.

Evan Nappen 15:37

That’s another area where individuals get set up, by the way. Remember, in New Jersey, if you have a change of address, you have to reapply under the law within 30 days to update your card. It is an obligation placed on the card holder to keep your card accurate, but not pistol purchase permits and not carry permits. They’re not address dependent. Page – 7 – of 16

Louis Nappen 16:02

No, they’re just used. Once you use your permit to purchase, it’s used. That’s that.

Evan Nappen 16:07

Correct. But Goworek’s case didn’t just end with that issue, because it was also another fascinating issue. Something we’ve been fighting for a while.

Louis Nappen 16:17

Yes, I’ve been fighting on a lot in this for a while. I

Evan Nappen 16:19

You have been actually.

Louis Nappen 16:22

I pride myself on preserving the record below, as they say, to make sure that I have good appealable issues. And I’m glad to say I was victorious on most of the appealable issues in this case. I raised a lot. I also raised that he’s deserving of a jury trial, but that didn’t fly. Nonetheless, you’re trying to take away, at the time they were taking trying to take away guns you’re already owned. It’s a forfeiture action, and he deserved a jury trial if that’s the case. But that’s neither here nor there. So, at this point, when it comes to this, some of the other issues, particularly I’ve been fighting, and I’m glad to see that with the new online system, it doesn’t seem to be asking for it. But for the longest time, and I’ve always raised the issue. The courts have been asking for a $50 filing fee just to file the appeal. They will not accept the appeal of a denial where you want to be heard before a judge without paying the $50 filing fee. The statute, however, says there shall be no filing fee or pleadings required for an appeal of a firearm permit. Yet, they’ve been doing that for at least the last 5-10 years, if not earlier, and it’s wrong. It was wrong. And that on appeal was also successful in that the court.

Louis Nappen 17:48

I haven’t said the end result here. They did end up remanding and vacating his order of denial, which was wonderful. So, all of that got vacated. He’s not saddled with having to compel sale or revocation or any of that. He ended up

Evan Nappen 18:04

or having a denial on his record

Louis Nappen 18:06

or having a denial on his record

Evan Nappen 18:07

does future applications he doesn’t have to answer that question

Louis Nappen 18:11

and the filing fee was refunded so that’s good. Now we have a guy Page – 8 – of 16

Evan Nappen 18:18

That’s the cherry on top. Fifty bucks back.

Louis Nappen 18:22

I know that sounds minor, but when you think of how many people apply and appeal, this is just a State money grab of money to exercise Second Amendment rights. I think you’re going to be talking a little bit about just the exact same thing a little later about how any time that they can grab

Evan Nappen 18:41

oh yeah. New Jersey doesn’t want to grab money, Lou, from gun owners

Louis Nappen 18:45

or people wishing to exercise their Second Amendment rights

Evan Nappen 18:47

Well, I’ll tell you what, you know. Something else I want to mention is that both Lou and I got our CCARE carry license qualifications done at WeShoot. Both of us did, and it was a great experience. WeShoot, of course, is a friend of the show, and I want to mention that they are an indoor gun range right in Lakewood, New Jersey. They are a great range and it’s a wonderful facility. They treat everybody just like family. I get so many great reports back from listeners that have taken my advice on going to WeShoot. They have great training and a great pro shop. They will get you set up, fitted, trained and ready to roll to get your carry. If you just want to enjoy a great day at the range, they run all kinds of cool events. WeShoot is in Lakewood, conveniently right off the Parkway. If you want to check out WeShoot, go to their website, which is weshootusa.com They have magnificent photography. They pride themselves on their photography, and you will enjoy just visiting their website. Make sure that you give your business to WeShoot. They are just a wonderful resource for the community, and we need our ranges. Ranges are the places where we shoot, and there are less and less of them. Without a place to shoot, it’s hard to train and be proficient with your guns. So, check out WeShootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 20:37

Now, of course, through our fight here on this case and other fights, the idea in Jersey is that they keep passing these anti-gun laws, and we have to keep fighting them. A number of times we’re fighting the battle for individual rights, one person at a time, like our client here, and we were happy to be successful. But there is also another wonderful organization and that’s the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are bringing federal litigation, challenging the obnoxious New Jersey gun laws that have just tormented and created havoc amongst gun owners. These laws include the absurd, so-called assault firearm law, which is really a modern sporting rifle ban, with such draconian penalties. It carries, you know, 10 years in State Prison with a minimum mandatory three and a half years for firearms that were 100% legal. Even those that you acquired legally. It doesn’t matter. There was no grandfathering. They just want to stick it to us, put us in jail, disenfranchise us of our gun rights and make it so we can’t vote. It’s all because, frankly, they hate us. It shows in how they treat us and what they do. But the state Association is there defending against that and defending against the so-called Page – 9 – of 16

large capacity magazine ban, which is actually the standard capacity magazine ban, and fighting the Carry Killer bill.

Evan Nappen 22:16

Because even though we do finally, after all these years, I’m so happy to even say it, when I say we have a shall issue carry permit in New Jersey. What the other side has done, out of their kicking and screaming and hissy fit, is they passed a law to try to eviscerate the utilitarian value of our carry permit. By limiting the places to this absurd degree as to where you can actually carry. It’s called the 25 sensitive places and all these things. So, the Association is battling that out and having great success in knocking back the restrictions placed on us. So that we do not have to be victims, but rather defenders. The Association also has a full time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They have a great newsletter, and you get email alerts. Please make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, which is anjrpc.org. ANJRPC.org. Join today and be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 23:30

Of course, I cannot fail to shamelessly promote my book which is New Jersey Gun Law. It is the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s used by police and lawyers and judges. Hey, it’s used by the New Jersey Firearms Unit of the state police. I was just talking to them about it. And they were talking about their copy of it. And look, I wrote it for you for, the gun owner. It’s a labor of love. It’s over 500 pages with 120 topics all in a question and answer format, and it was made to be user friendly so you can navigate through New Jersey’s insanity that they call gun safety laws. Yeah, yeah, so much safety built right in. Good grief. It’s never about gun safety. It’s about taking our rights. They wouldn’t know what gun safety laws are if they fell on them, and many times they are falling on them. But the fact is get my book, New Jersey Gun Law and protect yourself. You don’t want to become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. When you get the book, I have this really cool feature on the new 25th Anniversary Edition, which is available at EvanNappen.com. See the big orange book there? On the front cover is a QR code. Just scan it and you are able to subscribe, for free, 100% free, to our Subscriber Portal. You will get email alerts from me usually within 24 hours of any law change. You can access the archives for any updates to the book. You stay current, the book stays current, and you stay protected. So, get your copy today at EvanNappen.com.

Evan Nappen 25:18

Speaking of all this licensing, New Jersey Governor Murphy just put forward a legislative budget. In his budget, he’s asking to, drumroll please, increase New Jersey’s permit fees, increase them to the degree, folks, that if you want to get another handgun, just in fees for you to get your other handgun, it’s going to cost you $95 extra on top of the price of the handgun. Let me tell you what the fee increases are and what Governor Murphy is proposing. He wants to raise the Firearm Purchaser Identification Card price to $100. The current fee is $50. It used to be $5. This is insane. It’s to discourage individuals from exercising their Second Amendment rights. It is inflation gone hyper by Murphy. He wants to raise the Permit to Purchase a Handgun fee to $50. It’s currently $25. It originally was $2. This will be the second time he’s raising permit fees from $5 up to $100 and $2 up to 50. Page – 10 – of 16

Evan Nappen 27:01

And I’ll tell you right now, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is in the courts, as we speak, challenging his first fee increase as being unreasonable. Now he’s pouring this on. If you want to apply for a duplicate Firearms ID Card, $50 please. If you want to get a Carry Permit, it’s currently $200, but it used to be $20, he wants to increase it to $400 for a two-year carry permit – $400! You know, we just had the 29th state, South Carolina, and right before South Carolina, the 28th state, Louisiana, got Constitutional Carry. No permit carry at all. You can actually be a real American in those states and carry with no permit. Twenty-nine states have it. New Jersey wants to charge $400 to just get the permit. This is unacceptable. New Jersey shouldn’t be raising fees. They should be passing Constitutional Carry. One day we’ll get it. You may think that’s a stretch, but it’s not a stretch. As more people carry and as the State gets accustomed to individuals being defenders instead of victims, we will one day have it. But for now, they want to put these licenses out of reach and make it so cost prohibitive as part of their anti-gun game.

Evan Nappen 28:50

Now on top of all these fees, they want to raise the NICS check. So, you have your handgun permit that you paid $50 to get it or your Firearms ID card that you paid $100 to get it. Now when you go to buy a gun, it’s another $45. That’s right. He wants to raise it from $15 to $45. That means just to buy a hunting shotgun as a new shotgun owner, it is going to cost you $145. Almost the price of a top rate shotgun just for the fees, and every new handgun will cost you $50 plus $45 making it $95 just to purchase a new handgun. We have to stop this. You need to contact your legislators. Through the Association, you will be getting email alerts and given very easy applications to be able to let the legislators know. This is part of the important job here. These three increases are out of control.

Louis Nappen 30:09

Well, I know. I just want to say

Evan Nappen 30:12

You spent a lot of time about carry. Go right ahead.

Louis Nappen 30:16

Two things there I’ll say is. One, I think Murphy’s Law, any anti-gun law that can happen, will happen.

Evan Nappen 30:24

He never did meet an anti-gun law he didn’t like.

Louis Nappen 30:26

Well, that’s Murphy’s Law.

Evan Nappen 30:29

Right, right, Murphy’s law. Page – 11 – of 16

Louis Nappen 30:30

Any antigun or anti-freedom, Second Amendment that can happen, will happen. I think it’s interesting, by raising these fees, I think you have to look at it in terms of because only, and of course, I’m being sarcastic here, only the rich really need to protect themselves, not the poor people living in bad neighborhoods. They don’t need it. They really can’t afford it. They barely could afford the firearm to protect themselves. They’re going to be priced out. So, it’s clear that he doesn’t care about the people living in bad neighborhoods, who really need the right, perhaps arguably more, you know, I don’t want to say more, but as much as anybody else.

Evan Nappen 31:10

There is a disproportionate number of minorities who are in the lower economic classes. So, this is yet another

Louis Nappen 31:21

in fact, yes

Evan Nappen 31:22

institutionalized racism by the so-called party that’s supposed to be standing up for the principle that they’re constantly violating, in their zest to give the screw to the gun owner.

Louis Nappen 31:41

Yeah, take taking away the right for them to protect themselves when they live in these in these areas. It’s insane.

Evan Nappen 31:49

The people who need it most. Law-abiding, honest, hardworking people, that, you know, when seconds count, the police are minutes away, maybe even hours away. They need the ability to defend themselves, and they want to make it harder and

Louis Nappen 32:05

price them out. They are going to price them out.

Evan Nappen 32:08

This is the equivalent of a poll tax for voting. The same idea discouraged, after the Civil War, the newly freed blacks from being able to vote and establishing a poll tax, making a cost to vote. Well, look, voting is a Constitutional right. Having a firearm is a Constitutional right. There should be no fees whatsoever to exercise a Constitutional right.

Louis Nappen 32:42

There should be no applications to begin with to exercise a Constitutional right. I’ll put that out there. That’s what this whole decision that I’ve just been talking about. Why it should be Constitutional, and if you’ve passed your NICS check regarding it. If all these other states, at least the 29 can do it that way, there’s no reason why New Jersey can’t. And that would save a lot of money because we wouldn’t need the huge bureaucracy to back it up. Page – 12 – of 16

Evan Nappen 33:05

You’re damn right. Now, one of the favorite segments of Gun Lawyer is the GOFU, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. Our GOFU this week is anyone who gets psychiatric or mental health help is jeopardizing their gun rights in New Jersey. That’s right. New Jersey actually has structured the firearm application to discourage individuals from seeking mental health help. Because well, Lou, why don’t you explain how this works?

Louis Nappen 33:48

Sure.

Evan Nappen 33:49

Not just getting committed, but even seeing a doctor.

Louis Nappen 33:53

Yeah, I’ll just say. Every week I see at least one of these. That’s how common this is. How unrare it is because it’s people. As we talk about law-abiding gun owners and law-abiding criminals in that sense, but these aren’t even criminals. These are people who, and I see a lot of it with military, they come back and they suffer from post-traumatic, a little bit of this, or they’ve recently had or just anybody who has a death of a dog or death of a loved one, and they want to get a little grief counseling. Or we had a guy who years ago he went just because he wanted to throw a baseball better. We have a case along those lines. Whatever it is.

Evan Nappen 34:35

That’s right. He was in college, and he was having what are called the yips. He went to talk to a counselor for the yips.

Louis Nappen 34:44

For performance anxiety or whatever it was. To try and see if he could get over that. Just for whatever it is. So, people who are proactive because they see the beginning signs of a little OCD, a little grief, a little depression, a little post traumatic, whatever it is, and they want to go nip that in the bud. They do what you think would be the right thing, and they go to a doctor to get some help. Right now, I’m thinking of a person, specifically military, who served, and he saw 40 of his comrades wounded in serious battle. It haunts him here and there, but he’s not a danger. And he went for help. The application, as opposed to most across the United States where they just worry about commitments, where you’ve actually been committed for mental health, they ask, have you ever been, and I’m paraphrasing, treated, observed by any mental health doctor or sorry, by any doctor or psychiatrist or any hospital for mental health reasons? And so that broad question is on the application form. If you have done one of these, if you’ve gone for grief counseling, if you’ve gone for marriage counseling, and not just okay, if it’s not just to a and I recommend

Evan Nappen 36:04

Let’s just draw the line. Where does it become a firearm issue? And where doesn’t it? So, what doctors count and are there any doctors that don’t when it comes to firearms? Page – 13 – of 16

Louis Nappen 36:17

You have to be careful with doctors, period. Doctor. If it’s a psychologist, arguably, it still counts. Definitely if it’s an MD. It’s a doctor. He has a doctorate. However, I advise if you’re going to go, because I’m not saying you shouldn’t get some help if you’re facing

Evan Nappen 36:38

Of course, we want you to get help. But New Jersey creates this thing that now you jeopardize your Second Amendment rights when you do it. So, when you want to try to overcome it, you need to get a report from a doctor, which is going to cost you a lot of money to say that you’re safe for guns. And even though you are, good luck finding a doctor who is willing to say somebody is safe for guns. Even if they know they are, because they’re so afraid of the liability.

Louis Nappen 37:06

Oh, and I’ll add that in the statute itself, they want it to be somebody who’s licensed in New Jersey. So, good luck finding a New Jersey doctor who is pro-gun or at least will give you a fair shot. Yeah, this isn’t, you know, that’s what they’re anticipating in that sense. So, if you were to, and I’m not saying you shouldn’t get help, I want to make that clear. If you need it, go and get it. But, you know, that comes ahead of your

Evan Nappen 37:30

Make sure you realize that you’re going to have to deal with this, and let’s talk about how you deal with it. Because there’s two levels when it comes to the mental health issues where there are GOFUs that can occur. Firstly, if you have a commitment, either voluntary or involuntary, it doesn’t matter. The only way you can restore your rights is with a mental health expungement, period, end of story. A mental health expungement. You have to get a mental health expungement. It’s the only way to restore your rights for a voluntary or involuntary commitment. Now our firm does mental health expungements. We do a lot of them. But it is costly, and it takes time. And it is a full impediment, even though you just voluntarily went to seek help. Then there’s the have you ever been treated by any doctor?

Louis Nappen 38:26

Right. That’s a question on the form. But it’s not a per se disqualifier. But as soon as that is answered in the positive,

Evan Nappen 38:35

What do you mean per se? Tell us what that means.

Louis Nappen 38:37

It’s not an absolute disqualifier just because you have gone to see a psychiatrist. It doesn’t mean you’re barred just because you’ve done that. But they raise 58:3(c) saying you have a defect or disease, and we know about it. Therefore, now you must answer because then the burden is shifted to you to provide a doctor evaluation stating that you’re safe for the handling of firearms and not a danger which the judge may or may not find that you know. Page – 14 – of 16

Evan Nappen 39:09

Right. So, now you have to pay a doctor for that. and they are going to claim as well that you’re a danger to public health, safety, and welfare. Of course, they throw that in. Now you’re going to have to battle it and bring a legal action when you get denied for it to prove to the judge these very things simply because you went to a doctor.

Louis Nappen 39:32

But if you don’t mention it and you did have

Evan Nappen 39:35

Oh, what happens now?

Louis Nappen 39:36

Now you’re facing and they find out. Especially I see this during divorces. Wives know that you love your second amendment, and they reveal it. If somebody knows and it comes out somehow, maybe the doctor you’re currently seeing mentions it in some way. I don’t know. It comes out in a lot of weird ways. But they find out.

Evan Nappen 39:57

Let me tell you one way it came out. There’s a case we had where an individual actually paid the doctor cash because they were concerned about this. Unfortunately, they went and got prescriptions for Zoloft or whatever it was, nothing major, but enough, you know, a serotonin drug, but they used a prescription plan to buy the drugs. And that’s how it came out. And what happens is,

Louis Nappen 40:27

I’ve seen it come out and

Evan Nappen 40:28

You have to tell the truth all the time.

Louis Nappen 40:30

Of course.

Evan Nappen 40:31

Even if you inadvertently write no, you’re going to get denied for falsification, and then you can get prosecuted for falsification, which carries up to five years in State Prison. In certain jurisdictions if you put the wrong answer, they don’t even bother denying you, they just criminally charge you with the felony level, Third Degree crime, where you’re looking at five years in States Prison because you put the wrong answer.

Louis Nappen 40:56

And this is because you didn’t think maybe that this was something that needed to be mentioned or whatnot. So, I did want to mention, because we didn’t, going back. If you do have that kind of a Page – 15 – of 16

scenario where you want to get help, consider first going to a licensed counselor, that’s someone who is licensed, or maybe a religious figure that you trust in some form, or a friend or family.

Evan Nappen 41:22

As long as they’re not a doctor, too?

Louis Nappen 41:23

Yeah, that’s a good point. Right.

Evan Nappen 41:25

You don’t want any of these to be doctors. But if you go into that other realm, now you put yourself in a whole other category. You need to be aware of it at least. If you’re going to do it, you need to know what you’re getting into, and there are many that don’t. Then later, they’re saying no on the form. If I had known, you know. How many times have I heard that? If I had known so,

Louis Nappen 41:50

They either face falsification or they have to challenge it. They have to provide proof that they’re not a danger by another doctor saying so.

Evan Nappen 41:56

Exactly. And I’ll tell what else. You can also screw your kids. Many times, we get individuals who as juveniles, they had no control over it.

Louis Nappen 42:09

That doesn’t matter whether

Evan Nappen 42:10

If you are put into a mental health facility, that’s considered involuntary commitment. And they now have to get a mental health expungement. Look, you’re disqualified per se. It’s the same as if you’re a convicted felon. All because when you were eight years old, your parents thought you needed mental health, when in fact, they’re just bad parents. But it doesn’t matter.

Louis Nappen 42:34

Yeah, I’ve seen it. I’ve seen at least a dozen situations where they didn’t think that they had to mention juvenile mental health help. They figured that as a juvenile it doesn’t matter. But the application doesn’t say that, and they get screwed because they didn’t mention it. Like you just said, when you were 11 and there was family turmoil, you went to a family therapy session with a psychiatrist to try and work it out. You were there with your mother and your dad, and you were part of that. Some people go because they want to work out a marriage or this or that, but they weren’t the ones who had the problem. It was the spouse. Yet, they are there being treated.

Evan Nappen 43:15

They were sucked right into it and now have to deal with it. So, beware. Lou, I want to thank you for joining the show and helping our listeners to protect themselves and not be GOFUs. This is Evan Page – 16 – of 16

Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 43:40

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E176_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

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Episode 175-The Glock 43X Hidden Nightmare Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 175SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, voluntary surrender, gun, glock, magazine, state, firearm, mandating, nra, technology, registration, firing pin, guns, law, large capacity magazine, unlawful possession, holds, great, lakewood, surrender

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:16

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, I have some important information for gun owners that own Glock 43X pistols. Now the Glock 43X pistol is a 9 mm Glock handgun, and it’s very popular in states like New Jersey because it is a compact slimline frame. And it has, supposedly, a 10 round magazine capacity. New Jersey has a magazine prohibition for any magazine over 10 rounds, and New Jersey is not the only state that has the 10 round limitation. A number of states are denying individuals their Second Amendment rights by limiting how many rounds they can have. The states have arbitrarily determined how many rounds your life is worth, and New Jersey is one of them. So, 10 rounds is the limit in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 01:42

The reason I am mentioning the Glock 43X is because it has come to my attention, and I’ve in fact confirmed it with Glock, that the 43X Glock pistol magazines, specifically those manufactured prior to September 2023, can hold 11 rounds. That’s right eleven. In case you need a little help, that is more than 10. Any magazine in New Jersey that holds more than 10 is prohibited under Murphy’s standard capacity magazine ban. It is a felony level offense to possess a magazine that holds over 10 rounds. Now the Glock magazine, down the back of the magazine, of course, numbers one to 10, and Glock sold it as a 10 round mag. Thousands of individuals have purchased the gun with the mag as a 10 round mag. But nonetheless, you can squeeze in an 11th round. Although it is tight, it will take it, and the gun will function.

Evan Nappen 03:19

This was verified. I called Glock about it and got their technical guys. They said yes, in September 2023 there abouts, they modified and fixed their magazine so that it truly only holds 10. So, they actually did change the magazine because they recognized that it could hold 11. Something about the springs or some technical thing, but they changed it so that the newer Glock 43X magazines supposedly strictly only hold 10. But if you purchased your gun prior to September 2023 or maybe even after September, but it was an older gun that was prior to when Glock initiated their product changes, you have a magazine that is essentially a felony level offense in your possession and what you’re looking at is up to 10 years in State Prison in New Jersey for your possession.

Evan Nappen 04:30

A ‘large capacity magazine’ is specifically defined as a box, drum, tube or other container which is capable of holding more than 10 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-3, subsection j., it says, any person who knowingly has in his possession a large capacity magazine is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. Fourth degree is up to 18 months in State Prison for possessing it. It doesn’t matter what the magazine says it holds. What matters is what it actually holds. So, if you have a Glock 43X, I’d strongly suggest checking to see if your magazine holds more than 10. Because if so, you have a problem. As a matter of fact, you need to make sure that any magazines you have don’t hold more than 10. But apparently, the Glock 43X has this as an understood issue.

Evan Nappen 05:46

Now, let me tell you, it doesn’t just end with possession. Because I’m sure some of you are saying what can I do about it? Well, let me tell you. New Jersey also has a statute under N.J.S. 2C:39-9. subsection h., and it says, get ready for this, folks. Large capacity ammunition magazines. Any person who manufactures, causes to be manufactured, transports, ships, sells or disposes of a large capacity ammunition magazine . . . is guilty of a crime the fourth degree. So, not only is it unlawful for you to possess the magazine, but it’s also unlawful for you to transport the magazine. It’s also unlawful for you to ship the magazine, such as back to Glock. See what I’m saying. It’s also unlawful for you to sell it. It’s also unlawful for you to get rid of it because you can’t dispose of it. If you destroy it, that’s arguably destroying evidence. So, they don’t leave you with much option, do they?

Evan Nappen 07:00

In New Jersey when they banned all of this, you ended up with a magazine that is prohibited. It can not only turn you into a felon, essentially losing your gun rights and having a per se disqualifier by having that conviction, but also you are facing substantial State Prison time for it. Now, it does not only apply to New Jersey. There are other states that have 10 round bans as well. So, if you are in any of those states listening to Gun Lawyer, you better be careful and beware as well. Because this is a serious problem, and I know what you’re asking and thinking. Okay, if I have one of these, what do I do? What can I do? You just made it clear, Evan, that I can’t possess it. I can’t get rid of it. I can’t transport it. What do I do? Well, the only thing arguably out there that you can do, legally speaking, is found under N.J.S. 2C:39-12, which is a voluntary surrender. New Jersey does have a provision that allows for voluntary surrender so you can get immunity.

Evan Nappen 08:21

And what voluntary surrender says under N.J.S. 2C:39-12 is, “No person shall be convicted of an offense under this chapter for possessing any firearms, weapons destructive devices, large capacity ammunition magazines . . .” So, mags are actually included in the voluntary surrender statute. “. . .silencers or explosives, if after giving written notice of his intention to do so, including the proposed date and time of surrender, he voluntarily surrendered the weapon, device, instrument or substance in question to the superintendent or to the chief of police in the municipality in which he resides, provided that the required notice is received by the superintendent or chief police before any charges have been made or complaints filed against such person for the unlawful possession of the weapon, device, instrument or substance in question and before any investigation has been commenced by any law enforcement agency concerning the unlawful possession. Nothing in this section shall be construed as granting immunity from prosecution for any crime or offence except that of unlawful possession of such weapons, devices, instruments or substances surrendered as herein provided.”

Evan Nappen 09:39

Now, of course, that creates a problem. Because if you’re sending the notice that you’re going to surrender and you’re going to do the voluntary surrender and you follow along with that, how do you get it to the chief of police or the superintendent without transporting it? Transport is a separate offense under 2C:39-9, as opposed to possession, which is the offense found under 2C:39-3. It doesn’t explain that. It also doesn’t explain how voluntary surrender isn’t a disposition. But I’m assuming that, if you’re voluntarily surrendering it, built into the understanding of this statute is that you had to get it there and you have to dispose of it. Therefore, transport it and turn it in.

Evan Nappen 10:36

In my experience with voluntary surrender where we’ve done that on various items, I’ve never had anybody charged with the other offenses that relate to the possession such as transport or disposal, etc. But you can still be prosecuted for sure if the magazine is somehow related to some other crime. That’s for sure. So, if you robbed a 7-11, with your large capacity magazine, you don’t get immunity for that if you surrender the magazine, obviously. But this is the only solution at all, and it’s not a perfect one. There are still risks involved in exercising voluntary surrender. But, across the board, even from, unfortunately, the unknowing sale of the magazine to you by the dealer. I mean, this is just a mess.

Evan Nappen 11:41

When a manufacturer does not properly make their product, it can have criminal ramifications on individuals. New Jersey, really, is not too sympathetic to gun owners. I mean, sure, here, there’s a lot of mitigation. You didn’t know it. It was marketed as a 10 round mag. That’s what you thought it was, and it’s what the dealer thought it was. It’s what everybody thought it was, but it wasn’t. I think those are really great arguments to make. But if they want to bust your balls, you know they will. So, beware, and be careful.

Evan Nappen 12:22

But at least you’re alerted to this issue with the Glock 43X magazine. If you can get your hands on new ones that only hold strictly the 10 rounds, then that, of course, would be the magazine you’d want to have. Your gun is not prohibited. Just the magazine is prohibited. This has not been put out there in the ether. I didn’t see any announcements about this anywhere else, but I’m telling you. Like I said, I confirmed with Glock the product change that had to be done. So, beware. Don’t end up inadvertently causing all kinds of trouble and ending up with a GOFU on your hands from a Glock 43X magazine.

Evan Nappen 13:20

Hey, let me tell you about WeShoot. The reason I want to mention WeShoot is because this podcast is really important. I’m able to get great information out and warn my listeners about the dangers so you don’t become wrapped up in the criminal injustice system. Additionally, we see these other media outlets giving a hard time, and WeShoot has been given a hard time by Fascistsbook. Some of you may call it Facebook, but I prefer to call them Fascistbook because that’s how they act when it comes to the First Amendment. They tried to close down and shut down WeShoot’s great Facebook page even though WeShoot is 100% within the guidelines. The very guidelines from Meta or Fascistbook’s web page where they spell out the rules.

Evan Nappen 14:31

The rules say very carefully when you cannot post things regarding firearms, such as attempts to buy, sell, or trade firearms, firearm parts, ammunition explosives, lethal enhancements, except when posted by a Page, a Group or Instagram profile representing legitimate brick-and-mortar entities, including retail businesses, websites, brands or government agencies or a private individual sharing content on behalf of legitimate brick-and-mortar entities. Well, that’s exactly what WeShoot is. But does that stop Fascistsbook from shutting them down and trying to stop you from learning about WeShoot and visiting their page? No, and it is outrageous. This is what we’re dealing with when we deal with these mega companies that are controlling speech and attempting to do so.

Evan Nappen 15:31

Now the good news is that, in fact, they were able to get a new arrangement with Facebook. Facebook finally, again, allowed them to post. If you want to see the beautiful photography and everything about WeShoot, go to their new Facebook page, which is WESHOOT.LKWD . Obviously, that’s short for Lakewood because they are located in the fine town of Lakewood, which is very accessible from the Parkway. Or search on FB for WESHOOT LAKEWOOD NJ. They’re a great resource. They’re a great range with fantastic training. That’s where I got my training, my brother got his training, and my son got his training. We all got our certificates so we could get our carry permits.

Evan Nappen 16:38

In fact, I got my carry, and I am happy to say that it went very smoothly. Actually, I’ll give a shout out to the State Police who did an excellent job. I’m impressed how far we have come. The State Police are professional, and they have done a really good job here. We have shall issue carry now in Jersey, and it is really something to be able to say that and have a carry. Of course, Murphy and company have tried to do everything they can to make our carry permit worthless, worthless by limiting where we can carry. But the state Association has been aggressively litigating that. We’ll talk about state Association in a moment.

Evan Nappen 17:27

So, WeShoot’s new Facebook page is WESHOOT.LKWD. Check it out and click follow. Their Instagram handle is @weshoot_experience. You can check out WeShoot and find out all about their great service and their great range. They treat you like family. Absolutely check out WeShoot at their new FB Page, WESHOOT.LKWD. Give them your support as we battle, not just for Second Amendment rights, but also for our First Amendment rights, as well, as they try to shut us down and shut us up. We have to fight back and show our support.

Evan Nappen 18:11

Now speaking of the Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is our advocate in New Jersey. They are standing on guard, right up front, in the legislature protecting our rights. They also are absolutely making phenomenal progress litigating against the absurd gun laws in New Jersey, including the assault firearm ban, so-called assault firearm, it really is a modern sporting rifle ban. And the standard capacity magazine ban which we know legally they actually call a large capacity magazine. Oh, it’s so large. It might be 11 rounds instead of 10. So, that’s going on and hopefully we’ll see the death of those absurd laws that only affect law-abiding citizens. But until then, you have to be careful that you don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. You don’t want to be a GOFU that’s for sure. So, be careful. The Association can help you not get into trouble and can help you fight for our rights. They are the group that you really need to belong to. You need to be a member to be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 19:39

Now the state Association has endorsed their leader, Scott Bach, for the NRA Board. Scott Bach is also a friend of mine for many, many years. He is a high integrity guy, and he has done great work. Look how far New Jersey has come in this huge fight that we’ve had over all these years, and Scott has steered the ship of the state Association so well. It’s been able to accomplish amazing things under the most dire circumstances. Scott has been critical in helping to get attention, money, funding, all kinds of great efforts done in New Jersey through his position on the NRA Board and as the Executive Director of the Association. So, if you’re an NRA member, you will see that the ballot has come in. Please vote for Scott Bach. He will protect our interests in New Jersey as he has done for years, and he has high integrity.

Evan Nappen 20:52

We all know NRA has had problems and has been in the news. Scott is not involved in those problems for which individuals have been prosecuted, etc. civilly gone after, not criminally, but civilly. You’ll see that now more than ever with the changes that have taken place at NRA, in large part because of what happened in New York. Now more than ever, we need someone there for New Jersey, such as Scott Bach, looking out for our interest and helping to get NRA back on track. Back to its original status as the premier gun rights and civil rights organization in the country. And to get beyond this sad experience that has been going on. So, make sure on your NRA ballot, if you’re a voting member, to vote for Scott Bach and help keep him in a position to keep fighting for our rights and for New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 22:12

Of course, let me now take a moment to shamelessly plug my book, New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s used by the New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit even. I confirmed that myself while speaking with them. It’s used by attorneys, judges and more importantly, used by everyday gun owners so that they can navigate the extraordinarily complex area of New Jersey gun laws. It’s a book that is over 500 pages and has 120 topics. I did it in a question and answer format to make it very user friendly. It’s a labor of love, folks in the 25th Anniversary Edition. You can go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website, EvanNappen.com. Strangely, it has my name. I don’t know how that happened. But it’s EvanNappen.com. You can order the big orange book there, and you’ll be glad you did. On the front cover there’s a QR code. Scan that code so that you will, for free, how many things are free, right? This is absolutely free. A subscriber database 100% free. You get the new updates, the law updates, and you get access to the archives for any previous updates and postings and attorney general opinions. All that great stuff. All free. The book stays current. So, order your copy today.

Evan Nappen 23:39

Now let me tell you about an announcement from the New Jersey Attorney General. (https://www.njoag.gov/ag-platkin-finds-microstamping-technology-viable-for-use-in-commercial-firearms-following-live-fire-testing/) They’re so proud to announce that, based on both live-fire testing results and existing peer-reviewed studies, microstamping technology is a viable means of matching an expended cartridge case to the weapon from which it was discharged. Isn’t this amazing? Now they have microstamping technology. Why does this matter? Why is it so important? What is really going on here?

Evan Nappen 24:23

Well, first of all, what is microstamping? Boy, that sounds so cool. Microstamping. What microstamping does is it enables a firearm so it has unique markings engraved on the firing pin. And every time it’s fired, the expended cases have this marking so you can match the cartridge case to the gun that was used when they find the spent shells at the crime scene. Isn’t that awesome? It’s not like they can’t do it anyway. But hey, this now is going to positively ID with that firing pin marking because of the shell casings left there. Hopefully nobody ever uses a revolver, which doesn’t leave shell casings. Oh, and how does it work? It works with a firing pin. The firing pin puts that old stamper Roo right on there. Remember, we had that microstamping word competition? What fun things we want to have listed on our stamp. Well, here it is. Of course, microstamping with a firing pin, I mean, nobody could ever change a firing pin in a gun. Huh, how do you do that? I don’t know. Yeah, right. That’s real hard, real hard to do.

Evan Nappen 25:52

So, what’s really going on here, folks? Well, what’s really going on is with this technology out there, they’re now asking for the industry to adopt the microstamping technology. This technology gives law enforcement an innovative tool to identify crime guns and bring perpetrators to justice. Bring those perpetrators to justice. Now they have this certified technology, and it is viable. The Attorney General’s urging manufacturers to adopt microstamping technology in their production facilities and apply for placement on New Jersey’s microstamping enabled firearms roster. Doot ta do! Get on Jersey’s roster. Why get on Jersey’s roster? Because New Jersey’s microstamping law says that once those guns are on the roster, every retail dealer has to have at least one of those magical firearms to sell to the public. It mandates every dealer to have at least one.

Evan Nappen 27:03

Now, why in the hell would anyone want one of these? I have no clue. Nobody’s going to want these. Why would you want that? So that someone can pick up your brass at the range and have it ID’d to you by a microstamp? Is that why you want it? Or do you want it so that you can maybe claim your brass at the range? Hey, that’s my brass. It’s microstamped to me. Hand it over. I don’t know who wants this. Who wants to know? I’ll tell you why they want it. They want it because by mandating microstamping and mandating that every dealer sell it, even though nobody wants this product. Because if you wanted it, they’d be selling it already. It’s called supply and demand, the American way. Consumer demand, but guess what? It’s not there. Not there at all. Nobody wants this piece of garbage.

Evan Nappen 27:57

But New Jersey wants it. New Jersey wants it because they want to make every dealer have it so that it’s out there. So, once it’s out there and the roster has these guns on it, they can mandate that the only gun you can have is a microstamping-enabled firearm. That’s right. You say? Oh, well, why do you think they’ll do that? I’ll tell you. I know for a fact they will do it. How do I know this? Smart gun law. Good ole Loretta Weinberg. (New Jersey Childproof Handgun Law 2002) Her original smart gun law mandated it as the only gun you could have. The only gun would be a smart gun once the technology was established. That’d be it. And lo and behold, nobody developed it. Because nobody wanted to be that person or that company with that stigma, wiping out all ability to have other handguns in Jersey. That was the finest best progun, anti-gun law ever passed. It laid out their plans by having mandated smart gun technology.

Evan Nappen 29:05

So, what did New Jersey do? Under Murphy, they repealed that smart gun law, and then created this other smart gun law that said, oh, once the technology is out there for smart guns, dealers will be required to sell them and have them, but we’re not mandating it on the public. They did the same thing with microstamping now. We’re not mandating it on the public. We just require dealers to offer this fine product for sale to gun owners, of which nobody wants this. And why is that? Because the next step, my friends, the next step is mandating that every gun have microstamping technology and that every gun have smart gun technology. This is what their game is.

Evan Nappen 29:58

And what is microstamping in reality? Severe gun registration. That’s what it is. It identifies the make, the model, the gun, etc., and guess what? Registered to who? In this way they get their registration lists going even stronger and have the guns linked. Of course, it’s silly in what they’re saying about it being anything to do with stopping crime. That’s just a joke. However, I’m sure that bad guys, those evil doers, will find microstamping very useful, especially when they break the law which evil doers do. Murderers and killers break the law, right? They don’t care about gun laws. Because it would be illegal to remove the microstamping technology. It’s actually illegal to do that. I’m sure that law will have great effect on a person bent on murdering somebody.

Evan Nappen 31:07

So, let’s say this evil doer switches out the firing pin with a microstamp, commits the evil deed with the firearm, and then switches back to the pin with the microstamping in it. When the police find the gun and they check it, and oh, this is a microstamp technology gun. The casings found at the scene don’t have microstamps. They don’t match this gun. Oh my, this must not be the killer. In other words, it gets used in exactly the opposite way of their grandiose claims. And of course, if you don’t like microstamping technology, all it takes is a $2 file and the microstamping goes away anyway, right? The whole thing’s stupid. But changing the firing pin is even easier. Anyone can do that. I mean, where’s this going? where’s this going? It’s absurd.

Evan Nappen 32:12

So, what we have to do now is not buy a single one of these guns on the roster. Once it is out there, the commercial failure of it should help to limit the production and the eventual imposition of their plan to make it the only gun you can have. It clearly is what they’re up to. Don’t fall for it. They’re proud to announce that they’re marching forward with their plan by identifying this viable technology. Don’t fall for their games, folks. Be very, very careful.

Evan Nappen 33:01

Because that would be this week’s GOFU. The GOFU, which is one of the most popular segments on the show, the Gun Owner Fuck Up. That’s right. Where you can learn very cheaply a very expensive lessons that somebody else has learned. This GOFU ties right into gun registration, folks. New Jersey has voluntary registration of guns. You can voluntarily register your guns, if you wish. There’s no reason on earth to do that. It’s that simple. If you voluntarily register your guns, well, first of all, why are they not registered? And to do so, you have to mention where you got it, how you got it, and the whole bit. So, voluntary registration is just that voluntary. Then what it is is self-incrimination. After your “voluntary registration”, you can be prosecuted very voluntarily by the State. So, you don’t want to get on databases run by the State concerning guns. You don’t want microstamp-enabled guns.

Evan Nappen 34:28

We have to fight registration. Registration leads to confiscation and worse. The anti-gun plan is plain to see. Just open your eyes. When they find out who’s got the guns and get them all identified, eventually it will be roundup day. You know they’re going to do it. So, voluntary registration has proven, time and time again, to not be wise. In fact, to be a GOFU because the registration itself now subjects you to greater scrutiny and harm and the potential inadvertence of creating even more legal problems for yourself. So, folks, anytime anything wants any form of gun registration, you must do everything you can to not comply within the law. Voluntary registration is just that- voluntary. Since it’s voluntary, don’t volunteer. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 36:01

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E175_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 174-The Foundation of NJ Gun Laws Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 174SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, gun, handgun, carry, firearms, exemptions, law, permit, burden, court, guns, subsection, macro, second amendment rights, gun owner, understand, proven, mag, jersey, place

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, what is the foundation of New Jersey gun laws? Let me tell you what the foundation of New Jersey gun laws is. You may not believe it, but it is absolutely true. We are all guilty until proven innocent. Now how can that be? Is that just hyperbole? Is that just Nappen spouting off? No. That’s actually how it functions. It may surprise you, because you probably grew up thinking that you’re innocent till proven guilty in America. But not when it comes to gun law in New Jersey. How can that be? Well, let me explain.

Evan Nappen 00:58

You see, New Jersey prohibits essentially all firearms under the possessory law found under N.J.S. 2C:39-5. When you look at that statute, you’ll see that under subsection a., machine guns are banned, under subsection b. handguns, and under c., rifles and shotguns, etc. They ban all guns there, and then they create certain exceptions to the guns that are banned. Those exceptions come in two forms. One is built into the statute that has to do with licensing. The other is built into the exemptions, which aren’t even listed in the statute that’s doing the banning. You have to know that they exist in a separate statute to actually find them.

Evan Nappen 02:12

Let’s start with understanding New Jersey’s handgun prohibition. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.b., this is the b. section, it says, any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, yes, even antique handguns are covered, without having first obtained a permit to carry the same as provided under N.J.S. 2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the second degree. So, what does that mean? That means if you have a handgun and you don’t have a carry permit, you’re unlawfully in possession. Now prior to the Bruen decision, not many folks even had carry permits. But now hundreds of 1000s have carry permits. But still there probably are more than a million handguns in Jersey, for sure, with owners of handguns that don’t have carry permits.

Evan Nappen 03:25

So, are they all illegal? Are they all possessing their handgun unlawfully? I just read you the statute that says if you knowingly possess a handgun, even an antique one, and you don’t have a permit to carry it, you’re in violation of the law. How does that work? Well, it is true that if you don’t have a carry and Page – 2 – of 7

you’re possessing a handgun, you’re in violation. But then you have to know that you have to go to the exemptions. The exemptions are under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.

Evan Nappen 04:05

I want to specifically bring to your attention the most utilized exemptions by law-abiding citizens, and that exemption would come under subsection e. E as in Evan. It says, essentially, I’ll read it to you. Nothing in subsections b., which is handguns, c., which is rifles and shotguns, and d., which is other weapons, of N.J.S. 2C:39-5, we just read the handgun section. But then there are other sections banning rifles and shotguns, unless you first have a Firearms ID Card. Then subsection d. is just other weapons or anything else. “Nothing in subsections b., c., and d. of N.J.S. 2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about the person’s place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by the person, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. . . . “, which is basically cased, unloaded, etc, you know, the normal proper ways to transport a handgun, “. . . from any place of purchase to the person’s residence or place of business, between the person’s dwelling and place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between the person’s dwelling or place of business and place where the firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.”

Evan Nappen 05:45

So, if you have a gun in your home, a handgun, rifle, or shotgun, and you don’t have any license, a Firearms ID Card or a carry permit, you’re still legal for your possession by way of exemption if it’s in your residence, or if you fall under any of the other listed exempted places that I just read you. However, exemptions are a defense. They’re a defense. And how does that work in law when we’re talking about a defense? Well, a defense becomes the burden of the defendant to first show or demonstrate that they’re within that particular defense.

Evan Nappen 06:40

For example, if you use your gun in self-defense, what we call self-defense but legally is called “justification for the use of force”, and if you’re shooting a firearm, that’s justification for the use of deadly force, the burden of proof is actually put back on you, the defendant, to first have to show the elements of the defense are met by you. You have to make that showing by a lower standard of proof than reasonable doubt. You have to make the showing that you were justified normally by preponderance of the evidence or thereabouts. As long as you can make that initial showing, then the court will find that you’ve met that burden. Then the prosecution has to disprove by reasonable doubt that you were not within that defense. So, it switches the burden in a self-defense case to the defendant.

Evan Nappen 08:14

Keep in mind that if you ever use your gun, you’re going to have to first prove by that lower standard, but still, the burden is on you to first prove that you are justified. Well, that same idea is applied in New Jersey to simple possessory statutes. If you possess a gun and you’re relying on the exemptions, you first are going to have to show that you were within those exemptions. That your home is your home. I’ve actually had to prove that somebody’s home was their home. What does that mean? It means that Page – 3 – of 7

in New Jersey, as a function of the law, you are guilty until proven innocent. Let that sink in. They have structured the gun laws in New Jersey so that an individual is guilty until proven innocent. That’s how biased and absurd our laws are.

Evan Nappen 09:16

Not only that but think about what they’re doing here. They’re reversing the burden, finding you guilty until proven innocent on the exercise of a Constitutional right! Good grief. Not only do they screw us over in reversing the burden, but it’s even something that we shouldn’t be burdened at all about when it’s a Constitutional right. And yet here we are. So, as a Jersey gun owner, you need to be aware of this. Because at any time you could be put to your proofs, and literally have to prove that your possession was lawful because you are under an exemption. That’s your burden to first show. That’s actually how it works.

Evan Nappen 10:07

It’s shocking, and it is another travesty. It’s something you never hear discussed in the lamestream media, that’s for sure. But I deal with it every day as a Gun Lawyer. Every day these burdens of proof have to be met by the defendant. Now, hopefully, one day, the entire New Jersey gun law will be declared unconstitutional, because its foundation is so fractured and made of sand. But until that day comes, you have to be aware of it and not become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. But I believe that ultimately, the Achilles heel of New Jersey’s entire gun control scheme, is this reversal of the burden on a Constitutional right, and it is flat out wrong. Yet, you must still be aware of it, and you must deal with it. You can’t deny reality. You can’t be in that river in Egypt over it, you know, de-Nile. Therefore, you have to protect yourself. It’s critical that you do that. It’s critical that you understand how this works and live by it.

Evan Nappen 11:33

The exemptions are narrowly construed, and they get narrowly construed. Don’t go giving expansive meaning to what you think these words mean. For example, your place of business had better be the place of business you own. Not one that you simply manage, or you’re simply an employee of. It’s got to be your business that you own. This is, again, how the court has interpreted. It’s actually a case out there. I believe the name is Valentine, where this guy ran a bar. He did everything in the bar. He hired, he fired, he opened, he closed. He did everything in the bar except actually own it. Every month, he would send a check to the owner down in Florida. He had a gun there, and guess what? The bar was deemed not to be his place of business. That’s how they interpret these things. So, be careful and be aware. Don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 12:37

When we come back from the break, I have some great letters with some excellent questions that I know you’ll all get a kick out of and learn from. Let me tell you about our wonderful state Association. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is there defending our rights every day. You must become a member of the Association. If you’re not a member, shame on you. I mean it! You need to join the Association. They’re the number one gun rights advocates in New Jersey. They’re litigating in federal court and have a full time paid lobbyist in Trenton being a watchdog on the shenanigans going Page – 4 – of 7

on down there. They’re dealing with the Attorney General and various issues, getting things resolved in our favor to help us. They are the gun rights group for Jersey, and you need to be part of the solution.

Evan Nappen 13:36

You need to be a member of ANJRPC. To join, simply go to anjrpc.org. You’ll get their newsletter, which is the finest newsletter on gun rights in New Jersey. You’ll also get those email alerts, and you’ll be able to take quick and easy action opposing the next absurdity that some Democrat proposes in Jersey. Basically, it’s always the Democrats doing it, and the Republicans join in and screw us, of course. But hey, for the most part, that’s who’s doing it. It doesn’t matter who’s doing it, but we have got to fight them. We have to oppose them, and we have to let our voices be heard. The Association is your vehicle to do that. So, make sure you do. ANJRPC.org. Join today.

Evan Nappen 14:29

If you’re looking for a great place to shoot, my favorite place to shoot is WeShoot. An indoor pistol range in Lakewood, New Jersey. Conveniently located right off the Parkway, right there. So easy to get to. It’s a wonderful facility. They have great training and a great pro shop. They can set you up with everything you need. Your guns, your accessories, ammunition, training, and practice. Everything to be a responsible gun owner. They can get you certified with your core competency under CCARE so you can get your carry license. They will treat you like family, I guarantee it. It is a wonderful resource, and we need our ranges. Without a place to shoot, what are you going to do? It’s serious. So, make sure you give your business to WeShoot. Go to weshootusa.com and check out their website with the magnificent photography. They have all kinds of cool things that they routinely do. Special events, special sales, special deals. Just go in there, and you’ll see. It’s where I got my certification for my carry. The same with my brother, my son, all my friends, and so many listeners. Everybody raves about WeShoot. Go see what all of it’s about, and you’ll see that what I’m saying is true. weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 16:09

And what’s really important is that you own my book, New Jersey Gun Law, the 25th Anniversary Edition. It is my labor of love. I put hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of man hours into this. I could have made more money working at McDonald’s, frankly, than what I put into writing that book. But it’s not about money. It’s about our Second Amendment rights. It’s about not seeing New Jerseyans, law-abiding, honest New Jersey citizens, turned into criminals, what I call law-abiding criminals, that’s what New Jersey does. They get disenfranchised of their Second Amendment rights and get crushed by the system, destroyed by this absurd matrix. I wrote it to be user friendly. Get your copy at EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. Go right there to EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the big orange book. Click it, and you’ll have it in a matter of days. There are 120 topics all in a question and answer format. Everything explained. Make sure you scan the QR code on the front cover, and you can, for free, subscribe. That’s right for free. To my subscriber database where you can get all the updates. You’ll have access to the archive and get updates, normally within 24 hours of any law changes. So, this book that you buy stays current. It stays current, and you stay current. You will know what the law is, as we speak, and you can easily reference it and understand it. Go to EvanNappen.com and get yourself a copy today. Page – 5 – of 7

Evan Nappen 17:43

Hey, let’s take a look at some of these questions. Here’s one that was sent to me. This is from Brad. Love listening to your show every Sunday, and I nearly shit my pants over the weekend from what happened. I was grocery shopping at Sam’s Club when I heard and felt a pop and looked down to find the baseplate, spring, and four nine mm rounds laying on the ground. I quickly covered up the ammo with my shopping cart and collected everything without anyone noticing. It’s an 18 round magazine that was professionally blocked upon gun purchase four years ago to a 10 round commie compliant magazine. Yeah, that is commie compliant. My question is what could have happened if the wrong person saw this happening? Luckily, no one did. And I completed my shopping. I’ve had my PTC for a year and a half, and I am a U.S. Law Shield holder. Thank you in advance for any info, and I will be listening as I always do.

Evan Nappen 18:45

Well, Brad, thank you very much. If you’re at Sam’s Club and suddenly you get that pop. Oh boy, that could be a problem. You don’t want them to revoke your Sam’s Club card for that. That’s for sure. Now, legally, what could happen? Well, actually, no law was broken. There is no law broken. It’s just a magazine malfunction here. Like we have wardrobe malfunctions. Well, you had a magazine malfunction, but it’s not a crime. It could have brought attention to yourself. That’s true. But in your carry of a firearm, it wasn’t a sensitive place. It’s not a sensitive place. So, you weren’t prohibited from carrying there because that’s all that would possibly have alerted someone is that you might have been carrying a gun. But as long as you’re legal to carry, it’s not a sensitive place, and that’s not a problem. So, luckily, as upsetting as this was, especially when your self-defense gun is malfunctioning in your very presence and that’s not a good thing. It wasn’t a crime committed.

Evan Nappen 20:00

But you were smart to keep it low key, just cover it, and get the ammo. Get a better magazine for your gun, that’s for sure. Just get a factory 10 rounder. Don’t play around with blocked mags. I mean, if it’s professionally blocked, the magazine ban says you can’t hold more than 10. If it’s professionally blocked, we can argue that it’s okay. But a lot of the time the State says it’s not sufficiently blocked. Who knows and why get into all kinds of crap because they just see what the side of the mag says that it holds. Even though it doesn’t and yet, could it be converted blah, blah, blah. But who needs that? Just go the extra mile. It’s not really expensive. Get a 10 round factory mag for your gun. Then even the dumbest law enforcement or prosecutor can see that your mag only holds 10 rounds. You can avoid becoming a new case where you have to call me to defend you from being convicted and facing up to 18 months in State Prison for having a large capacity magazine charge. We have to live this way, unfortunately. I know it sucks, but we have to for now.

Evan Nappen 21:24

But the large capacity magazine is on the chopping block, folks. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is litigating it as we speak. We should see some action on that. That case went all the way up to the Supreme Court after the Bruen decision. They GBR’d it. Grant, Vacate, and Remanded back for further proceedings, and it’s looking very good. I’m cautiously optimistic as we all should be. Let’s hope the standard capacity magazine ban, which is what it really should be called, is declared unconstitutional along with all the other infringements that New Jersey has placed upon us. That’s right. Page – 6 – of 7

Evan Nappen 22:06

Hey, let’s take a look here. I have another question. This is from Dan. Dan says I have a quick question. I don’t know if you’re able to clarify it. I have a court issued permit with two handguns on them. One is a Canik and the other is a SIG X macro. My court order says Sig Sauer X macro serial number x x x x. That’s a nice serial number. Just kidding. I’ve been looking into purchasing the 365 AXG Legion. Nice gun. With the 365 units, the FCU, that’s the Firearm Control Unit for those that don’t know that an acronym, is what is actually serialized and can be dropped into different 365 frames. Would I be able to take the FCU from my current macro and place that into the AXG Legion and carry that legally? I believe the FCU is interchangeable between the AXG and the X macro.

Evan Nappen 23:04

Dan, let me tell you I agree. I understand that it’s convertible if SIG says so. And that’s all well and good. But here’s the problem. You have a court order that names a gun by its name. It says SIG SAUER X macro on the court order. If you make the macro into an AXG, it’s no longer the gun named in the court order. If you’re carrying the AXG in contradiction to what the court order says you can carry, then unfortunately, you’re in a problem situation. You are now outside the court order. Unfortunately, the state of New Jersey has prohibited, barred, permit to carry holders from going back to the court to seek redress over the permits issued by a court. New Jersey gun owners are denied access and redress to the court, for actions taken by the court. This is how much they disrespect us and treat us as second class citizens. It is disgusting that we cannot seek redress in the courts. You thought you lived in America, but aha! You live in New Jersey. Surprise, surprise.

Evan Nappen 24:36

So unfortunately, Dan, you can’t get the court to do anything about it, and you cannot contradict that court order. You take quite a risk if you do. You need to wait. The next permit you get will have to be through the law enforcement officer, the chief of police of your town, or the superintendent of state police. Thank God, judges no longer issue carry permits. When you get your new permit, you can add any gun to it that you may wish to carry, as long as you pass the CCARE, which is just core competency. You don’t have to pass for a specific gun. You don’t have to do that. Just demonstrate core competency and get your CCARE certification. Then you may add guns to your application. You can add guns even after with the form on the State Police website. And it’s no problem because it’s not about the specific gun anymore. It’s about your core competency and can you shoot. I know you can do that, but for now, you’re stuck. You’re stuck because Jersey Justice says jam it to you. You’re going to have to keep your Sig Sauer X macro in its macro configuration until you get your next carry permit, where you’ll have more freedom as to what handgun you can carry.

Evan Nappen 26:13

Hey, what’s the GOFU of the week. That is, of course, the Gun Owner Fuck Up of the week. We learn from the GOFUs. We learn so that we get these cheap lessons, so we don’t repeat the mistakes that others have made. Let me tell you about a GOFU, and the GOFU this week is a little different. But it’s something you need to really consider and think about. You need to make sure, folks, that your spouse or significant other understands guns and understands the importance of firearms to you and their safety and security. And what happens when the Government gets involved in your life. If your Page – 7 – of 7

significant other or spouse doesn’t understand that and they think involving the police in any way in your life is a good thing, firearms get seized, taken, and your gun rights get put in jeopardy.

Evan Nappen 27:23

Not only is the gun owner going to end up facing disenfranchisement of their Second Amendment rights, forfeiture and/or seizure of their firearms, and possibly even criminal charges, but it also impacts the entire family and the relationship. Many times, I get calls from the very person who called the police in the first place and cannot believe what the Government is “doing to my family over this”. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that. So, explain reality to your spouse or significant other. Take them shooting. Let them know and understand firearms. Let them get professional training at WeShoot. They have women training, women training women there, and it’s very comfortable. But if you take your spouse or you take your significant other there, start them off with like a .22, something easy and fun. Don’t go have them shoot the high power centerfire cartridge guns with a lot of recall that we all love. Have them shoot something easy and have them shoot at a relatively close range. They’ll hit the target and enjoy the thrill of shooting. Let them understand firearms are nothing to be scared of. Let them themselves get a love of guns, too. It protects your own rights. It lets there be peace and harmony in the family. It gives that greater understanding, and everybody wins. When you can get your spouse on board or your significant other on board, you will avoid not just legal problems, but you also end up getting another person interested in guns. Another person who may in fact want to become a gun owner. Then that person has a vested interest in not only their own Second Amendment rights, but the Second Amendment rights of everybody in the household. Many, many times folks, I get cases that come in and guess how it started? By this very GOFU that I’m explaining to you now. So, think about your own situation and see if there are things you can do to help prevent that GOFU from happening to you. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 30:13

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in his broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S3 E174_TranscriptAbout The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen, Robert, Detective Walker

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Did you know that New Jersey has the largest gun ban ever in United States history? That is correct. No exaggeration. This is absolute insanity, and I’m going to explain to you how. New Jersey passed what is called the “No Serial Number”, at least that’s how we’re referring to it, the “No Serial Number” gun ban. Now this “No Serial Number” gun ban was passed in a package with half a dozen or more bills by Murphy and the Democrats. All these anti-gun laws, and they targeted what they called “Ghost Guns”, ooooooh, “Ghost Guns”. Now, we know that all the Ghost Gun is is a homemade firearm, and it’s nothing to be afraid of. Americans have been making their own guns since before our country was even a country. But there’s this anti-gun propaganda push, came up with the scary pejorative term, “Ghost Gun”, and then pass every kind of law you can think of to go after this. They are often done with broad, huge strokes, swaths of guns being banned, and that’s exactly what happened here.

Evan Nappen 01:54

In this package, they went after homemade guns, making guns, manufacturing guns, 3d-printed guns, CNC (Computer Numerical Control) guns, 80 percenters. All that stuff banned, banned, banned. Serious, serious penalties. One of the other add-ons was the gun with no serial number, gun with no serial number. The problem is how they defined exactly what that gun is with no serial number. Because what New Jersey ended up doing was prohibiting the possession, the sale, the transport, the manufacturer, even the disposition, disposing of, can’t even get rid of a gun with no serial number. They defined this as two parts. For a firearm to be lawful in New Jersey, it must have these two elements. It must be imprinted with a serial number, and the serial number must be registered with a federally licensed manufacturer. So, it must be both of those things to be a lawful, not prohibited, no serial number gun in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 02:33

The problem is that there is no grandfathering, no exceptions, no exclusions. Any gun that doesn’t meet these criteria became banned and is contraband to possess. If you possess such a gun, you’re looking at five years in State Prison as a maximum punishment. If you transport the firearm, if you manufacture such a firearm, if you sell such a firearm, or if you dispose of this firearm, it’s a second degree crime. You’re looking at up to 10 years in State Prison for doing that. The definition of “firearm” is quite broad in Jersey. It’s not what normally is associated with something being a firearm. New Jersey’s definition of Page – 2 – of 10

“firearm” includes BB guns and air guns. It includes black powder firearms. It includes basically all these “guns that shoot”, and it doesn’t have to be modern cartridge firearms.

Evan Nappen 04:56

For a firearm to be lawful in Jersey, it must be imprinted with a serial number and be registered with a federally licensed manufacturer. So, that serial number had to come from a federally licensed manufacturer, and here’s where the problems come in big time. First of all, there’s no exemption for pre-1968 rifles, shotguns, or handguns that don’t have serial numbers. Prior to 1968, there was no federal law that required serial numbers on firearms. Remember, the reason for a serial number originally was to be a theft deterrent, and so that you could identify your firearm by serial number to help curtail theft. That’s why the laws that existed were to stop defacing firearms. It’s where you remove a serial number that’s already been put on a gun. This was all about anti-theft. This was hijacked by the anti-gunners so that the use of a serial number would be for registration of guns and for eventual confiscation of guns. That’s how serial numbers are currently being used and abused.

Evan Nappen 06:27

So, here, we have a situation where the pre-68 what are called “NSN” (No Serial Number) guns are contraband in New Jersey. There are literally millions of these firearms that never had a serial number in the first place. They’re perfectly lawful, and they were even sold by major companies. Even FFLs, whenever they would encounter a gun, would write on their inventory tag NSN which meant No Serial Number. That was fine, but it’s not fine anymore in New Jersey. All those pre-68 guns with no serial numbers now fall under this egregious law, but it doesn’t end there. All modern, even post-68 rifles, shotguns, pistols, and revolvers with serial numbers, but not with a serial number that’s registered with a federally licensed manufacturer, the second leg of this definition. This means that uncountable numbers of foreign made firearms, military firearms, surplus firearms, imported rifles, shotguns, pistols, revolvers, any of these guns that aren’t serialized by a federally licensed manufacturer from the United States, are now prohibited in New Jersey. Possession, transport, sale, manufacture and/or disposal. You can’t even get rid of it. Think of how many guns are encompassed by just that factor? How many Lugers, P-38s, Mausers, Arisakas, Enfields SKSs, Carcanos, Webleys, Norincos, Mosins, etc.? How many of them are in the United States and in New Jersey that now fall under this law? It’s uncountable how many. Even modern guns today that come from folks that are avid shooters of this particular brand or that particular brand. If it’s an imported gun and it’s not a federally licensed manufacturer, that gun is banned in Jersey. Think of how many models fit just that portion of this absurd law in New Jersey? But it doesn’t end there.

Evan Nappen 09:30

Because as I said, the definition of “firearm” includes BB guns, air guns, etc. Now, most BB guns don’t have serial numbers. If your BB gun has a serial number, well, it had to be registered with a federal licensed manufacturer. There is no requirement for a federal firearm manufacturing license required to make air guns in America. To make BB guns. So, that Daisy or that Crossman or that Gamo, those are not federally licensed firearm manufacturers. No. Federal law doesn’t count them as firearms. So, you don’t get licenses for that. Basically, every BB gun and air gun in New Jersey is prohibited under this insane law. Same with muzzleloading firearms and black powder firearms. All these repros of historic guns and those great Hawkins and hunting guns that we love of the good old days of black powder that Page – 3 – of 10

that there’s entire hunting seasons dedicated to you have any of those guns and they’re not a serial number. Even if they are serial numbered, they were not by a federally licensed manufacturer. There’s no federal manufacturing license required to make black powder firearms. So, unless the company that happened to make your black powder firearm is in fact a federally licensed manufacturer such as, maybe you have a Ruger old army black powder, okay. Lucky you because that has a serial number, and Ruger is a federally licensed manufacturer.

Evan Nappen 11:29

But if you have an imported Italian black powder revolver, of which there’s probably millions of, if you have one of those, oh, that’s no good in Jersey because it’s considered a “No Serial Number” gun. Just think about how many muzzleloaders are out there. CVA, did they make actual firearms? No, they made black powder firearms. Do they have to have a federal license? No, they didn’t. So, what about your CVA? Now, if you happen to have a Thompson Center, well, they were a federally licensed firearm manufacturer because they made cartridge firearms as well as their famous Hawking and other black powder rifles. So there, you would be covered, but not all these others. Think how many muzzleloaders and black powder guns are covered. Plus, antique firearms, bona fide antiques. Many of them are black powder. Many of them are obsolete makers that never had a federal license of any sort. They were in existence and went out of business prior to any type of federal licensing or manufacturing. All those antique guns are prohibited now as “No Serial Number” firearms because there’s no distinction. They are firearms under New Jersey law.

Evan Nappen 12:54

So, this law, this absurd law, is turning uncountable numbers of New Jersey citizens, honest law-abiding citizens into potential felons. Facing New Jersey’s typical draconian and outrageous penalties for technical violations of the law, as New Jersey is famous for. Think about how many guns here are covered. It is the largest gun ban that I am aware of in United States history if you think of how many guns come under this law. As we speak, this law is on the books. If you want to read the actual law, I’ll give you the statute. It’s N.J.S. 2C:39-3 subsection n. That’s on the possession prohibitions. N.J.S. 2C:39-9 k., which are the other prohibitions that are at a second- degree level, even more severe. You can see in the 39-9 law, that’s where you’ll also find all the other “Ghosts Gun” prohibitions and 3d printer and all that kind of stuff, all thrown in there.

Evan Nappen 14:30

This is what our ignorant legislators do. And if I call them ignorant, I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt here that this was done out of their sheer ignorance. I’m not positive of that by the way. This could very well be absolutely intentional as a way to backdoor and get in this massive gun ban. So, they can confiscate and turn law-abiding citizens into criminals and disenfranchise them of their Second Amendment rights. This is what Jersey does all the time. Why should this be different? This is a very, very serious problem. You can read the law yourself, and you can go to my website, EvanNappen.com. I have an article there where I explain all this in detail, right on my website. If you want to know more about “No Serial Number” guns and really get an understanding of it, I’ll shamelessly plug my new book, New Jersey Gun Law, the 25th Anniversary Edition. Get the 25th Anniversary Edition, and I have a whole chapter explaining what I’m telling you here. These are the kinds of traps that are out there for New Jersey citizens. But it doesn’t end there. Page – 4 – of 10

Evan Nappen 15:51

Because even when citizens try to find out what the law is and they go to the authorities, the authorities themselves don’t even know what they’re talking about, unfortunately. I’m going to give you an example of this very thing because this is also part of the problem. When we come back, you’ll hear a conversation from a listener who recorded their conversation with the New Jersey State Police. I think you’ll find it pretty fascinating. See in a few.

Speaker 3 16:25

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:39

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:46

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. This is Evan Nappen. I love my listeners, and I so appreciate that you folks are out there. What I am going to play for you very shortly comes from a dedicated listener. We’re all in this together, and we have to protect each other. This is really the voice, and I really feel privileged to be able to talk to all of you and let your friends know. I’m very happy with the sponsors of my show, and I greatly appreciate them. As many of you know, we have the State Association, the Association New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the number one gun rights organization in New Jersey. They are the NRA affiliate, officially in New Jersey, and they have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton fighting all these outrageous laws. They are in the courts, litigating, doing excellent work litigating on these very issues. Based on my conversations with folks, action is going to be taken on this very topic. They’re not ignoring this, and you can see all the battles that we have to fight. You need to be a part of the solution. You need to be a part of the Association, your state association. You see the Association of Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is an umbrella organization of all the gun clubs in New Jersey. So, they unite in one united place under the banner of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, and you can become a member, an individual member. That way you are doing your part, and you’re going to get alerts about these changes, these threats, and be kept on top of what’s going on in Trenton and the litigation. Plus, you get the finest gun rights newsletter in New Jersey. That’ll be sent right to your door. So, make sure you join the state Association. Check them out at anjrpc.org. Join and be a proud member of the state Association. Page – 5 – of 10

Evan Nappen 20:07

Our other sponsor who I’m just as proud to have on board is WeShoot. WeShoot is a premier gun range. They are an indoor gun range in Lakewood, which is a fantastic location for a gun range, right there easy access from Ocean County, Monmouth County, etc. It’s an excellent facility, really state of the art. WeShoot. I have really become friendly with these folks, and I love their operation. And you know, they’re really more than just a company. They’re more than just a business looking to make money. They are dedicated to our cause, which is one of the reasons they are a sponsor of this show. They believe in what you believe in, what I believe in, and what we are all fighting for. It’s a community there really, and they have built this community around certain principles like responsible gun ownership. They have extremely friendly, five-star customer service. They provide an amazing and safe shooting experience for everyone. If you’re a supporter of Second Amendment rights, and I know you must be if you’re listening to this, there, that’s the place to go.

Evan Nappen 21:26

At the heart of WeShoot, of course, is their team. I’ve had the pleasure to meet and know all these great folks. They’re super friendly and knowledgeable. Today, as we’ve been talking about different team members, I want to talk about one of their great core team members, Daytime Manager, Bill Bradshaw. Now Bill is a seasoned expert with a career spanning 15 years in the firearms industry. He is just obsessed with providing great customer service. He has a wealth of knowledge, a passion for teaching, and a warm personality. He’s really a standout figure at WeShoot. By the way, Bill is a USCCA certified firearms instructor and an NRA certified pistol instructor. He offers private 2-hour and 1-hour lessons, and he’s able to get you ready for the NJ CCW, that NJ Permit To Carry class, that you need. So, look, folks, go to WeShoot. They have a vast selection of firearms there. You can enjoy their 12-port indoor range and get to say hello to Bill. At WeShoot, you are not just a customer. You’re part of the WeShoot family.

Evan Nappen 22:46

WeShoot is offering this Sunday, May 28, they are offering all retired and active members of the U.S. Armed Forces a FREE Range Pass and one FREE gun rental. So, look, if you’re saying to yourself, hey, it’s Sunday, what should I do? It’s Memorial Day weekend here on Sunday, May 28. If you’re thinking what’s a good thing to do? Well, if you’re retired or active military, you can go to WeShoot and get a Free Range Pass and one Free gun rental. It doesn’t get any better than that. So, check out WeShoot at weshootusa.com. They have a beautiful website, and you can be part of the WeShoot community.

Evan Nappen 23:41

So, one of my listeners here who’s really an advocate as well, given the dedication that he has and sharing what he’s willing to share. He wrote a letter. His name is Robert, and he wrote a letter. We’ve actually talked about Robert before here on this very issue. But he sent a letter to the Attorney General back in March (2023), wanting to know about what to do about his pre-1968 “No Serial Number” firearm. What he had was a 12-gauge shotgun that was purchased in 1956 by his father, right after his father’s 18th birthday. This firearm was manufactured pre-68, and it wasn’t required to have a serial number on it. Now the problem is, what should he do? He has this gun. It’s a pre-68. The idiotic “No Page – 6 – of 10

Serial Number” gun law has no exemption for pre-68. Here’s a fun family heirloom passed down from father to son.

Evan Nappen 25:03

He writes to the Attorney General wanting to know what he should do. He has proof of the purchase, my friends, from Sears and Roebuck on October 10, 1956. The original receipt for this gun. It was $48.88 and 33 cents for shipping. Do you believe it? In 1956. He even has photos of his dad with the shotgun. Now New Jersey is turning him into a potential felon, and it is outrageous. So, he wanted to know, what can he do about this heirloom? Because is the law really this absurd? This stupid? I’m going to tell you right now. Yes, the law is this absurd and this stupid. Here’s the problem. He ended up going down the chain of the Attorney General turning it down, down, down. Finally, it ends up at Firearms Division in the State Police.

Evan Nappen 26:11

The fellow that he speaks to there is trying to advise him. Now let me just be honest. This fellow is trying to be, this state trooper, this detective, is trying to be a good guy. I get that. The State Police always try to be of assistance. They try to do their best. I understand that, and I appreciate that they do that. But unfortunately, what was being told him was not correct. Just a few moments ago, I explained to you what this law says, how it works, and what’s prohibited. But why don’t you take a listen to the advice that was given by the New Jersey State Police to Bobby with regard to his situation? I think you’ll find that this is, unfortunately, something that is systemically wrong with New Jersey’s gun laws. Because even those that are in charge of trying to fairly administer these laws, don’t understand these laws. The legislators that pass them, giving them the benefit of the doubt, don’t understand what they’re passing. They don’t want to listen to the gun folks like you and me that do understand it. They just want to do their thing and jam it down our throats. And this is where we end up.

Evan Nappen 27:37

So, take a listen to this conversation and you see what you think. Mr. Producer, could you play the clip, please?

Robert 27:45

Robert speaking.

Detective Walker 27:46

Hey, Rob, this is Detective Walker from the State Police firearms unit.

Robert 27:50

Hey, thanks. I appreciate your getting back to me, Detective.

Detective Walker 27:52

No problem. I’m just calling in reference to the letter you sent to the Office of Attorney General in regard to your, what is it, a shotgun?

Robert 28:02 Page – 7 – of 10

Yeah, it’s a shotgun that my father bought in 1956. No serial number.

Detective Walker 28:07

Yeah. So, um, a lot of them, a lot of those firearms that were manufactured back then don’t have serial numbers.

Robert 28:17

Right.

Detective Walker 28:19

So, like, what, uh, where would you be like using this? Like, like shooting clays and stuff or, like, bring it to the range?

Robert 28:25

Exactly. Shooting clays primarily.

Detective Walker 28:27

As long as, um, as long as you’re transporting it properly, you’re not gonna have any issues with something like that. That, the statute that you’re like referring to, is like, that’s for, I’m trying to read through it here, is where I read before. You’re doing it like intentionally. Like, you’re not, you can’t put a serial number on that gun, you know.

Robert 28:49

Right.

Detective Walker 28:49

So, you know, if you were to get pulled over, you know, you’re not gonna obviously have it in the passenger compartment of your vehicle. You’re going to have it

Detective Walker 28:57

enclosed, yeah, in a case, you know, or ammunition separate and all that. So, yeah. I understand, like your concern, because, yeah, like, it’s a first degree crime. That being a first degree crime, it’s like, for knowingly doing it. You’re doing it because you’re planning on selling it, or, you know, using it somewhere else, or, you know, something like that.

Robert 28:57

Of course not.

Robert 29:16

Okay, so I was just concerned because it said that it’s not permissible to transport it, sell it, destroy it, or ship it. And I’d certainly be transporting it. So, you’re saying that that’s not a violation of the law?

Detective Walker 29:32

No. Page – 8 – of 10

Robert 29:33

Okay.

Detective Walker 29:33

Do you have a, do you have a Firearms ID Card?

Robert 29:35

Yes, I do.

Detective Walker 29:35

Okay. Yeah, you’re fine then. You inherited it. So, yeah, you’re, it’s actually technically doesn’t even have to be registered. It uh

Detective Walker 29:42

Okay, perfect. Yeah, you covered all your bases then. Um, yeah, as long as you were transport it correctly. And all that information, if you would like me to send it to you, I can send it to you.

Robert 29:45

No, I have a Certificate of Eligibility. I actually didn’t inherit. My mother inherited it, and she transferred it to me through a Certificate of Eligibility.

Robert 29:50

That’d be awesome. Yeah. It’s good to have something in writing that says, hey, here’s what I’m relying on.

Detective Walker 30:05

Absolutely. But yeah, if you, if you’re just taking it to the range or to a spot where you’re shooting clays and stuff, like you have nothing to worry about.

Robert 30:05

Okay.

Detective Walker 30:05

There’s, yeah, you’re not using it, you’re not doing it using it for anything malicious. You’re not trying to sell it or anything like that. Basically, you know, you can sell it, but you know, obviously, you go through a FFL for that.

Robert 30:24

FFL. Right.

Detective Walker 30:24

Yeah. FFL. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, I understand where you’re concerned. Especially, you know, you said there you’ll do first degree crime. But, yeah, Page – 9 – of 10

Robert 30:31

That’s pretty serious, you know?

Detective Walker 30:33

Oh, it’s, it’s really serious.

Robert 30:35

Even 18 months is a long time. I don’t want to certainly don’t want to get 15 to 20 years. But

Detective Walker 30:39

Absolutely, yeah. But uh, yeah, like I know, it said here, you use it for shooting both in New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Robert 30:47

Right.

Detective Walker 30:47

Just, just make sure like, if you’re going into PA, you’re abiding by their their laws. Obviously, we don’t, we don’t deal with their laws.

Robert 30:54

Sure.

Detective Walker 30:54

Yeah, I’ll send you over that, that little tidbit from our FAQ, about uh, about transport and like, long arms, and you should be good to go.

Robert 31:04

Okay. Detective, I appreciate your help. Thank you so much.

Detective Walker 31:07

Yeah, no problem, sir. Anytime.

Robert 31:08

Bye, now.

Detective Walker 31:09

You have a good one.

Evan Nappen 31:13

So, there you see. I mean, the Detective is trying to be a good guy. He’s trying to use common sense, obviously, and being rational. But unfortunately, he doesn’t get the law right, and there is a prohibition on possession as well. Even possession, under 39-3n. Additionally, it is even understood by him that Page – 10 – of 10

there are plenty of these guns out there with no serial numbers. So, they recognize that these guns are out there. But it’s not exempted in any way. Even if you transport pursuant to the exemptions for transport, if you transport pursuant to what are on the State Police FAQ guidelines, they do not exempt you for guns that fall under the “No Serial Number” gun ban. It actually isn’t covered at all. Whether or not there’s intentional possession, intentional serializing of unserialized, or any of that, none of that is really of any moment in terms of the simple two-part definition that is met by all these pre-68 guns. So, this offense isn’t based upon whether one has malicious intent or not.

Evan Nappen 32:58

Now, I understand that this Trooper would be a reasonable guy, this detective, and he is using common sense. Like he says, he is trying to do the right thing, and I appreciate it. But this really shows you the problem. New Jersey gun laws are not only not understood by citizens, they are not even understood by those that are supposed to be advising citizens so they can understand it. And again, I don’t blame them. Because these laws are so absurd and so ridiculous. They create a trap. Then at some point, some law-abiding citizen ends up becoming that test case. They end up becoming the one prosecuted by some zealous prosecutor, despite the best intentions by the State Police to give guidance, or by the law-abiding citizen trying to do the right thing. Because the laws themselves are terrible. They are unjust, and they are written in a fashion that it becomes an impossibility to abide by them, even though we as law-abiding citizens would do our best to abide by them.

Evan Nappen 34:20

Laws like this make it an impossibility to do so. With this law, you cannot possess a gun, and you can’t dispose of the gun. You can’t transport it, and you can’t sell it. Even if you were to “voluntarily surrender” the gun, where there is a provision that allows for so-called voluntary surrender, it has to go to the police station. How do you get it there without transporting it? And that’s what you’re required to do. But they don’t exempt you or give you immunity even for that. So, this is ridiculous in New Jersey. And by the way, the forfeiture willy nilly of family heirlooms, even if that’s a solution, it’s an outrage. Because this man’s shotgun, purchased by his dad in 1956, that he treasures as part of his inheritance, part of his family tradition, is now turned into contraband by these ignorant, stupid gun laws.

Evan Nappen 35:37

We’ve got to fight them. You’ve got to stay vigilant, and you’ve got to be weary. You’ve got to know what you’re dealing with in New Jersey. Make sure you do. This is the mission of Gun Lawyer. As we make advances here, we’re going to let you know. If things can change or if we get any kind of new information about how this is going to be treated. But until then, this is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 36:21

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E135_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 134-You Have Your Carry Permit… Now What?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 134SUMMARY KEYWORDS

carry, prohibition, handgun, gun, prohibited, place, firearm, permit, new jersey, law, facility, gun rights, lawyer, judge bumb, casinos, insurance, book, including, public, exemptions

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Boy, these sure are exciting times. Judge Bumb in the Federal court case released her incredible decision. I mean, it is 235 pages, and it is decisive. It is virtually a book unto itself. This really lays out her opinion so strongly. So well done. She knows that this is going to most likely go up the line, and she has really put forward an incredibly strong opinion, and an order on the preliminary injunction, which has changed a number of things, some really spectacular things.

Evan Nappen 01:11

What I want to do today is go through the changes and go through what you need to know if you’re carrying a handgun in New Jersey with a Carry Permit. What is the law now? What do you need to know? Where can you carry? Where can’t you carry? A basic, fundamental, understanding of the rules that you hear from me, so that you don’t get into trouble and where we stand. Let me just say, right off, one of the most important things that the judge did was enjoined, which is stop the application of, stop the enforcement of the insurance mandate in the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill by Murphy and the Democrats. The bill, amongst a whole bunch of other things, mandated that individuals have liability insurance if they carry a gun in public. This was to take effect on July 1, and it would have been devastating. Because no such insurance is available. Nothing meets the bill because the law essentially required insurance companies to insure intentional acts, and nobody was touching it.

Evan Nappen 02:44

We were heading into a disaster if the insurance requirement was not found to be unconstitutional and enjoined. I’m happy to say that that’s exactly what happened. So, we are in good shape over that being killed by the judge. No insurance mandate. Huge news. It had the potential to absolutely wreak havoc because it’s not just permit holders, those with carry permits, but anybody who carries a firearm in public needed insurance. So, even if you didn’t have a carry permit and you carried your handgun at the range to practice or you carried your handgun in your place of business that was open to the public, even though you would normally be allowed to, you would be required to have insurance even without a permit. It would have just wreaked havoc but that has been enjoined. You do not need to get liability insurance to exercise your Second Amendment rights to carry in public and defend yourself.

Evan Nappen 03:59 Page – 2 – of 11

Now let’s take a look at the situation because you’re all excited now that you got your carry permit. You’re looking forward to being able to defend yourself and your loved ones. No longer be a victim, but rather a defender if you ever have to be. You’re no longer denied the most effective means to defend yourself and your loved ones. But what are the parameters that you need to know? Well, starting right away with the permit itself. Permits are good for two years, which didn’t change. So, keep that in mind. You don’t want to forget about your carry permit and have it expire. They last two years. The permit applies only to handguns carried by the actual permit holder. So, your Permit to Carry doesn’t allow your spouse to carry a gun unless your spouse has his or her own carry permit.

Evan Nappen 05:00

The law does require that your firearm be carried concealed on your person. It does not authorize individuals to carry openly. New Jersey strictly has concealed carry, not open carry. The only exception to that is if there’s a brief, incidental exposure, of the handgun when you are transferring it from a holster or shifting of your body or clothing. But other than those brief incidental exposures, it needs to stay concealed. Open carry is prohibited. The application fee is still in effect at $200. Make sure when you carry that you have the proper holster. Not only does it have to be on your person concealed, but the holster has to retain the handgun. At a minimum, it has to conceal and protect the main body of the firearm. It has to maintain the firearm in a consistent and accessible position. Make sure you have a good belt rig for your firearm. You have to make sure the holster covers the trigger, and it is inaccessible. The trigger is inaccessible while the handgun is seated in the holster. You need to have a holster that conforms to this because if your holster doesn’t conform, then it’s illegal, and you can face a felony charge for not having the proper holster. So, you want to make sure you have that proper holster.

Evan Nappen 06:39

The law does impose on permit holders what is called a Duty to Disclose. So, you need to know that you must reveal to an officer that you’re carrying, and this kicks in July 1. But you should make sure you get your mindset established now. If you’re ever stopped or detained by a law enforcement officer, while carrying your handgun, either in public or traveling with it in a motor vehicle, you must immediately, immediately, disclose to the officer that you’re carrying the handgun or if it’s stored in the vehicle. So, even if you’re transporting it, cased and unloaded, but you’re a permit holder, you have to disclose that it’s stored in the vehicle or that you’re carrying it.

Evan Nappen 07:27

The Duty to Disclose is on all folks that have a Permit to Carry. Now interestingly, if you don’t have a Permit to Carry, you do not have a Duty to Disclose. That’s right. It only applies to Permit to Carry holders. Not only do you have to immediately disclose that you’re carrying a handgun, and if you fail to do it, it’s a crime of the fourth degree. You’re looking at up to 18 months in State Prison if you fail to do that. But you also must display your Carry Permit to the officer and failure to display it is a disorderly persons offense, which carries up to six months in the county jail. So, when you’re carrying your handgun, make sure that you have your Permit with you so that if you have to disclose, you can immediately show your permit as well and that is required by law.

Evan Nappen 08:19 Page – 3 – of 11

Additionally, if you end up getting detained by law enforcement as part of a criminal investigation, let’s say you were engaged in a righteous shoot or any other matter where there’s a criminal investigation, you must provide your handgun to the officer upon request for purposes of inspecting the handgun. So, if the officer requests to see your handgun, you must turn it over. Your failure to do that is also a fourth-degree crime, and you face 18 months if you do not do that.

Evan Nappen 08:53

Now let’s go over some key things that you cannot do while carrying your handgun. This is in addition to what’s called the sensitive places that we’ll get to in a minute. These things are still in effect. These are not enjoined, and it’s important that you abide by these things. Number one, you cannot consume alcohol, cannabis or a controlled substance while carrying a handgun. So, no consumption of alcohol, cannabis or what’s called CDS, basically drugs, while carrying a handgun. You cannot be under the influence of alcohol, cannabis or controlled substance while carrying a handgun. You cannot carry a handgun in public outside of your holster, and you cannot carry it in a holster that doesn’t meet the holster requirements. You cannot carry more than two firearms at one time. You can’t do the John Bianchi thing and have 40 handguns all over. You can’t do that. Two is the max. You’re also prohibited from engaging in what is called an “unjustifiable display of a handgun”, which they don’t define in much detail. Basically, keep it covered, keep it concealed. Don’t display your handgun.

Evan Nappen 10:19

Now, additionally, there are 25 “sensitive places”, and a number of these sensitive places have been enjoined. Let’s review them so that you don’t have a problem. One of the sensitive places is basically any place that’s used by the government for purposes of government administration. It particularly notes that it includes police stations. So, do not bring your gun into a police station or other facility that is used for government administration. You cannot have your gun in a courthouse or a courtroom, or other premises used to conduct judicial or court proceedings. That’s kind of a standard prohibition, and it’s very common throughout America. Additionally, you cannot have your gun at a correctional institution, a jail or a prison. Do not bring your gun to prison. Okay, do you have to write that one down? I don’t think so. But keep it in mind. It is a prohibited place.

Evan Nappen 11:29

You cannot have your handgun at a state-contracted halfway house. Now, how you’re supposed to identify what a state-contracted halfway house is, I have no idea. It’s not like they put a big neon sign to say “state-contracted halfway house”. But if for some reason you end up in such a place, do not carry your gun there. Additionally, you are prohibited from having your gun at a place used as a polling place during the conduct of an election. You can’t have your gun at a place where you vote, and also at places used for the storage or tabulation of ballots. You can’t have your gun at a place being used to commit election fraud. I’m just kidding about that second part. But you can’t have it at a place where there’s storage or tabulation of ballots, and you cannot have it at a voting place or polling place.

Evan Nappen 12:31

One of the places that was prohibited, and it was not enjoined in the original TRO, but in fact, is enjoined now in the new Preliminary Injunction order. And that is carrying within 100 feet of a place where a public gathering, demonstration, or event is held for which a government permit is required. Page – 4 – of 11

And anytime during the conduct of that gathering, demonstration, or event. This has been enjoined. You’re no longer prohibited from carrying at a public gathering or demonstration or event where a government permit is required. The judge has enjoined that, so that was a nice gain, a nice win. Because how would you even know whether a public gathering required a permit? Doesn’t mean they even had to get a permit? How do you even know that a public gathering was going to take place? How are you going to know any of this? So, luckily, that has been enjoined, and you don’t have to worry about that prohibition for now.

Evan Nappen 13:47

There’s still a prohibition on colleges and schools and universities and other educational institutions and on school buses. So, do not carry in educational institutions or any of the property associated with that. Remember, these places include the parking lots and property, etc. of the prohibited places. So, be very much aware of that. You don’t want to have a problem. Educational facilities are also prohibited in other section and has been a prohibition in New Jersey for quite a while. Now. They also prohibit it at childcare facilities and a daycare center. So, you cannot carry at a childcare facility or a daycare center. Additionally, you cannot carry at a nursery school or a preschool or a summer camp. However, in that same category they placed zoos. I don’t know why they put zoos in with nursery schools, preschools, and summer camps. Why were zoos in with those three? Maybe if you have kids, you think a zoo is appropriate to be with those three. But, nonetheless, zoos have been enjoined. So, if you wish to bring your carry gun to the zoo, that is no longer prohibited. But nursery schools, preschools and summer camps are.

Evan Nappen 15:19

There is another big one here that actually was continued to be enjoined and that was a park, a beach, and a recreational facility or area owned or controlled by the state, county or local government, in which it was designated as a gun free zone by the governing authority. This has been enjoined. You can carry at a park, a beach or recreational facility or area. What you cannot carry in though, what has remained as law that is enforceable, is playgrounds. You cannot have your gun at a playground, but you can at a beach or park or recreational area, or other area owned or controlled by the state. For such things you can. It is limited to playgrounds.

Evan Nappen 16:12

There’s still a prohibition on having your firearm at a youth sporting event, both during and immediately preceding the event. The only exception to that is it doesn’t include a youth sporting event in which there is a firearm shooting competition. How nice. It’s very hard to compete in a firearm shooting competition without firearms, but that has not been enjoined. There is an exemption for firearm shooting competition. But that’s it for youth sporting events. There was a prohibition on publicly owned or leased library or museums and that has been enjoined. So, you can carry at a publicly owned or leased library or museum. Let me take a break right now. When we come back, I’m going to finish reviewing with you the places you can and can’t carry and the important things you need to know so that you can safely carry your handgun with your permit and not run into trouble. See you in a few.

Speaker 3 17:26 Page – 5 – of 11

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Eva Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 18:40

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 18:55

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. Thanks for being a listener. I have so many great folks that listen to the show, and I love speaking with you. I’m so glad when folks come up to me, and they tell me how much they enjoy the show. It really means a lot to me. I really like it. I’m able to get out and educate folks so that you don’t end up needing to hire me to defend you because that is not a fun position to be in when the state of New Jersey wants to turn you into a criminal. So, knowledge is the key, and it is absolutely required upon you to know the law. We try to educate our listeners so that they don’t run into trouble.

Evan Nappen 19:39

I’m very proud to have some great sponsors for the show. As many of you know, the state association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, is a sponsor of Gun Lawyer. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is the premier gun rights organization in New Jersey. They are litigating the very decision that we’re talking about now. Their action in court is what got us to these various prohibitions being enjoined. The court case was handled by my good friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter. It was argued by Dan, and he did a fantastic job. I would point out that the Association is there for you. They’re on the forefront of the litigation, and they’re also there in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist. Keeping a strong, strong presence and a clear eye on what is going on in Trenton so that you can be warned about the shenanigans going on and what actions you can take to help fight for our gun rights.

Evan Nappen 21:00

You need to be a member of the State Association, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s the umbrella organization, and it is the NRA affiliate. It is critical that you belong to the state association. You can go to anjrpc.org and join. You will get email alerts as to the latest activities going on that affect our gun rights, and you’ll get a newsletter, a printed newsletter, that’s the finest gun rights newsletter in New Jersey. You will also know that you are part of the solution by joining the Association. Page – 6 – of 11

Evan Nappen 21:47

I also want to thank our sponsor, WeShoot. WeShoot is a top-of-the-line range in Lakewood, and WeShoot has just a fantastic facility. Easy to get to from Monmouth and Ocean County and the surrounding area. Our ranges are super important. Because without ranges, we don’t have a place to shoot. In a crowded state like New Jersey, ranges are a blessing. They are critical to our right to keep their arms, and WeShoot is really fulfilling a role there that is incomparable. I want to tell you that WeShoot had some excitement recently. Host Judy, from the Dennis and Judy Show on 101.5, stopped in for a beginner’s class with Heidi, the instructor that we’ve talked about on the show before. Judy really had a great time, and she decided to join the WeShoot community, which is just great.

Evan Nappen 22:53

We can get that kind of outreach at ranges, and we can get folks shooting that are influential folks like that. It’s really important and that’s what WeShoot’s doing. They really take pride in their continuous efforts to invite influential figures and engage them with the Second Amendment experience. They offer a great opportunity to understand and appreciate safety and discipline that really defines the art of shooting. That’s what we need rangers to do. This is a mission. This is a mission, a calling. It’s critical, and it’s how we protect our rights. WeShoot really shatters the misconceptions. They show that the gun community is often misportrayed in the media. But once folks actually experience it and see that they prioritize safety, they treat the sport with respect. They see how professional ranges and what shooting is all about. That’s really important and critical. It’s really great that WeShoot is out there doing that. It protects all our rights and enforces the Second Amendment.

Evan Nappen 24:05

One of the things I find really nice is that WeShoot is offering listeners of Gun Lawyer a special deal. From May 21 to May 31, you can get a free range pass. All you have to do is mention the promo code. I’m going to let you know the secret promo code. It’s Gun Lawyer. That’s right. Go to WeShoot, tell them Gun Lawyer, and you get a free range pass so you can experience firsthand what I’m talking about how great that WeShoot range is. You got a place to shoot and not only that a place you can shoot for free. Just say the word Gun Lawyer, and you’ll get a free range pass. You can share that code with your friends and family. Go down to WeShoot and really have a great time and a great experience there. You’ll see why I’m so proud to have WeShoot as a sponsor.

Evan Nappen 25:13

Additionally, WeShoot is extremely grateful for the Americans that have served and sacrificed for our country and for our freedoms. They are also offering all active and past members of the armed forces, as long as you show proof of service, a free range pass for Memorial Day weekend. Saturday, May 26, and Sunday, May 27. If you have prior Armed Forces service, you can get a free range pass as well. They’re really out there, and they want you to try WeShoot. You’ll see what a great facility it is. You can get these free passes by either being active military, prior military service, or just mentioning Gun Lawyer. You can take today and have a great time at the range. If you want more information, go to www.weshootusa.com. That’s www.weshoot usa.com. And take a look at their website. They really have great photos, too. They have professional quality photos, and they just do a really fantastic job. I’m so proud to have them as a sponsor. Page – 7 – of 11

Evan Nappen 26:35

One other last thing, I will shamelessly promote my new book, which is the 25th Anniversary Edition of New Jersey Gun Law. It’s 516 pages. What I’m talking about today. I’ve explained 120 topics in a detailed question-and-answer format so that anyone can understand the complexities of New Jersey gun law. I can’t believe it’s the 25th anniversary, and it’s my masterpiece. The greatest thing about it is that it has a QR code that you scan on the front, and you can register for free updates. Subscribe. It’s free. You will get updates and alerts so that the book will continuously be current. Because that’s one of the things when you get a law book, the law changes. Well, this way, I’m keeping it current. If you go there now, you’ll see that there’s an update on the case that we’re talking about right now. An update is there so you can read and print it. You can have it to reference again, and you know exactly what the updates are and how the law is changing.

Evan Nappen 27:49

So, get the book. That’s your base of all the laws. Then when anything changes, you’re going to know by way of that update. You can purchase it at my website. Just go to EvanNappen.com, and you’ll see the big orange book. Just click it and get yourself a copy. I know you’ll get a lot of use out of it. One warning I’ll have to tell you is when you get the book, don’t lend it to anybody because you won’t get it back. I hear that complaint a lot. I loaned my book and didn’t get it back. I’ve got to buy another one, which I’m glad if you have to buy another one because I like to sell books. But keep in mind, it’s very desirable.

Evan Nappen 28:29

Let’s take a stroll back at the places you need to be aware of so that you don’t have a problem. You cannot have your gun in shelters, various shelters, shelters for the homeless, emergency shelters for the homeless, basic centers, shelter programs, shelters for homeless or runaway youth, Children’s Shelter, children’s childcare, shelter, shelter for victims of domestic violence, or any shelter licensed or under the control of the juvenile justice commitment Commission, or the Department of Children and Families. So, beware of shelters. You also can’t have your gun at a community residence for persons with developmental disabilities, head injuries or terminal injury, terminal illness or any other residential setting licensed by the Department of Human Services or the Department of Health. Those prohibitions are still there, and they’re still considered sensitive places. Don’t carry your gun there.

Evan Nappen 29:26

Now one of the prohibitions that has been enjoined was a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served and any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. That has been enjoined. You can in fact have your gun at a bar or restaurant or a place where alcohol or any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption. You can have your gun there. That has been enjoined, and you’re not prohibited. Now, you are prohibited from imbibing. You are prohibited from drinking, and you’re prohibited from being under the influence of alcohol. But you can be at a place where alcohol is served.

Evan Nappen 30:12 Page – 8 – of 11

There’s also a prohibition on class five cannabis retailers. So, dispensaries for medical marijuana or recreational marijuana, and any of those places that are regulated and licensed by the cannabis Regulatory Commission of the state of New Jersey that violates federal law by selling marijuana illegally under federal law. You know, that place. You can’t have your gun there. So, don’t bring your gun to any of the drug distribution centers, licensed by New Jersey contrary to federal law. They don’t want you there with your gun. Additionally, there was a prohibition, this one has been enjoined, and I’m happy to say so, on privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facilities within the state, including but not limited to a theater, a stadium, a museum, arena, racetrack or other place where performances, concerts, exhibits, games, or contests are held. And guess what? That was outrageous. Think about the atrocities committed at movie theaters. If an individual had been armed, they could have stopped it. But here, the New Jersey Democrats go and say, oh, no, no, we don’t want you carrying in movie theaters. I mean, it’s exactly the opposite. They want you to remain victims, not defenders. It’s outrageous. Well, that’s been enjoined. You can have your firearm, and you can carry in privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facilities, including not limited to theaters, stadiums, museums, arenas and racetracks, etc. So, that is really good news. We are not disarmed in those places.

Evan Nappen 31:55

There was also a prohibition on carrying in casinos, including but not limited to their hotels and retail premises and restaurants and other facilities and entertainment restaurant venues all with the casinos, and that has been enjoined. So, the law prohibiting it is no longer enforceable. However, the casinos have conspired together through their organization, and they are privately banning firearms at their facilities. They decided to go against our Second Amendment rights as private property owners, and they’re prohibiting guns on their premises. If you violate that, then you are a trespasser and can be prosecuted. So, the call by the state association is to boycott the casinos. They don’t recognize our Second Amendment rights. They’re in fact opposing our Second Amendment rights. They want you to be victimized more than just by your wallet going into casino, but your very personal safety. They’re prohibiting you from being able to defend yourself at those facilities. Even though the law itself was enjoined, you still have that prohibition to worry about from a private entity. So, don’t give them your business.

Evan Nappen 33:17

There’s a prohibition on what is essentially a plant or operation that produces, converts, distributes or stores energy, and converts one form of energy to another. That’s so broad and ridiculous. You would think that it should have been knocked out for vagueness. I guess we’re just calling it an energy plant, for lack of a better word, but it’s almost like what if you are standing by a solar panel, you can’t have your gun? I don’t know. But that’s going to take more litigation I’m sure in the final hearing, and let’s see what that’s really about. But for now, it’s not been enjoined. But of course, how is it defined and what does it mean? That’s another story.

Evan Nappen 33:58

There’s a prohibition that you cannot have your firearm at an airport or a public transportation hub. Now, what the judge did here is interesting. There is a partial enjoining of that, to the degree that you can pick up and drop off, as long as you don’t go in, and if you go in, you can still check in your gun if Page – 9 – of 11

you’re transporting it properly. But short of that, you can’t have your gun at airports or transportation hub. The judge did not enjoin it in its entirety. So, that’s going to take further litigation to see exactly what the parameters are. But be very careful when dealing with airports and public transportation hubs. You are going to not have reliance on your carry permit there, but more on Title 8926 A of the federal law for interstate transport or reliance upon exemptions for your transport in these places.

Evan Nappen 35:02

Additionally prohibited was an entire list of health care facilities. Interestingly, there’s been a number of these places, a couple of these, that are very important were enjoined. So, you cannot carry at a healthcare facility, including but not limited to, a general hospital or a special Hospital, a psychiatric hospital, a public health center, Diagnostic Center, treatment center rehabilitation center, extended care facility, the skilled nursing home and nursing home, intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital chronic disease, hospital maternity hospital, outpatient clinic, dispensary, Assisted Living Center, home health care agency, residential treatment facility, residential healthcare facility. Then the last two, medical office or ambulatory care facility, those two have been enjoined. So, you can carry in a medical office or ambulatory care facility, but you cannot carry in all the others and that would still mean your hospitals and such. But as far as the doctor’s office or the ambulance, ambulatory care, that’s been enjoined of that section. We’ll see how much of that survives in the final hearing. For now, that’s the limitation, but we did gain in the decision medical office and ambulatory care facility.

Evan Nappen 36:37

There is still a prohibition on any facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services or Department of Children and Family, or Department of Health, other than a healthcare facility that provides addiction, or mental health treatment or support services. The prohibition on a public location being used for the making of motion picture or television images for the actual commercial or educational purposes during such time the location is being used for that purpose. That was a prohibition. We call that the Alec Baldwin prohibition. The judge has enjoined that. So, you can, in fact, have your gun at a public location used for making motion pictures or television images, etc. That has been enjoined, and it is okay now.

Evan Nappen 37:29

Then there was the private property prohibition, and we’re going to have to explain this. This is an interesting decision on how this works. There’s a prohibition that says private property, including but not limited to residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural, institutional, or undeveloped property, unless the owner has provided express consent or has posted a sign that it’s permissible to carry your handgun with a valid permit. The exemptions, the normal exemptions, still apply under 2C:39-6e. and f. for your home or your place of business. But short of that, private property in its entirety was prohibited unless there was an express consent or a sign. Now, what the judge did here is interesting. The judge decided that, as far as private property which is open to the public, is enjoined. You do not have to have express consent or see a posted sign affirmatively allowing you to carry if it is public use private property. So, the bar doesn’t apply to that. But on private property, that is not public use, such as, arguably, your friend’s house or something like that, then you need to have the express consent or a sign welcoming it. Welcoming and saying it is permissible to carry a concealed handgun with a valid permit under 58-4. Page – 10 – of 11

Evan Nappen 39:19

So, it’s kind of split the baby there. The difference between private property being used for public purposes and not. One of the things I was thinking about with this, just as a side note, I think all private property owners that believe in gun rights should put signs on their property that “Carry with a permit is lawfully permitted.” Think about it. If you put that sign on your private personal property that you have no problem with and in fact, encourage the licensee to carry, not only are you standing up for gun rights, but also, you’re giving folks that might consider robbing your home second thoughts. Because if you are welcoming concealed carry, they probably want to find a home that isn’t so welcoming for folks that are willing to defend themselves and have others defend themselves. Something to think about. But that’s how to deal with that exemption now. It’s the decision by the judge in this matter. So, make sure you understand that and don’t have a problem. Then finally, any other place where the carrying of firearm is prohibited by statute, rule, regulation, promulgated by federal state agencies. It’s very broad. It’s kind of hard to define, but anywhere else there is a rule or reg. That has not been enjoined. Of course, it remains to be seen what exactly they’re even talking about, but I’m sure it’ll come up in some capacity.

Evan Nappen 40:57

Now, in addition to the 25 sensitive places, there’s transport in a motor vehicle. We call that, as you may recall, the Car Jacker Protection bill, because Murphy and the Democrats prohibited an individual from having a loaded handgun, even though they have a permit to carry, in their own vehicle for protection. That’s just an absurdity beyond absurdity. The judge has enjoined that, and it staid enjoined. So, you can have your handgun in your motor vehicle, concealed on your person and loaded (if you have a NJ Permit to Carry). It’s not a problem to do that because it has been enjoined. Now, keep in mind that even though it’s been enjoined, which is very good, you cannot ever leave your handgun outside your immediate possession or control within a parked vehicle. If you park your car and you are not taking your handgun, it needs to be unloaded and contained in a closed and securely fastened case, gun box and is not visible from the outside of the vehicle or unloaded and locked in the trunk or storage area.

Evan Nappen 42:02

Listen, be responsible gun owners here. Get the locking gun safe for the car. They are less than 50 bucks. It has a cable, and it’ll strap around the base of your seat. Secure your unloaded firearm, lock it up, and slide it under the seat so it’s out of view in a secured gun safe made for such things. Please be responsible and go beyond the law here. You don’t want your gun stolen, and you don’t want somebody else to access your gun. So, this is something that you really should conscientiously do. Now, if you end up in one of these sensitive areas, what do you do? Well, what it says is if you have a Permit to Carry and you’re otherwise prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm into the parking area of a prohibited location, the law says that you can transport that handgun or ammunition within the vehicle into or out of the parking area, provided your handgun is unloaded and contained in a closed securely fastened case, gun box, or locked and loaded in the trunk or storage area. Again, use a gun safe here. Lock it in the safe that’s cabled and put it out of view. Or you can store the handgun or ammunition in a lockbox. They even mention that in the second part, and out of plain view within the parking lot. That’s the thing to do. Put it in that lockbox designed to secure firearms with the cabling device that goes Page – 11 – of 11

around the base of your seat. Secure it and put it under the seat out of plain view. Be responsible and be in compliance with that requirement.

Evan Nappen 43:41

Those are the sensitive places and that’s how to deal with it. Now in addition, there’s some broad exemptions to all of it, that include the classic exemptions that we’ve relied upon for years and years in New Jersey, which is subsection e. and f. of 39-6. As you may recall, e. is possession in one’s home, possession in one’s place of business, as long as you actually own the business, your business that’s an exempt place, going to the gunsmith with your firearm, going between residences and such while moving, but during the whole time you’re doing that, it has to be pursuant to subsection g., which is unloaded and in a secure gun box, case, etc or locked in the trunk. Again, I highly suggest using that lockbox, so you have it secured. As long as you stay within an exemption, that can exempt you from these sensitive places. This is what you need to know as a person carrying a handgun under a carry permit. Those are the prohibited places and the new changes that the judge has put forward.

Evan Nappen 44:54

Now let me just leave you with something very important. The State of New Jersey is appealing the decision, and that’s no surprise. However, they are trying and requesting to get what is called a stay. If the State of New Jersey gets a stay, that means everything that’s been enjoined is no longer enjoined. This would mean that the entire Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill passed by Murphy and the Democrats will be in force. If that happens, then the insurance mandate will be required, every sensitive place will exist, and all of this gain that we’ve gotten in the preliminary and in the TRO will be wiped out, maybe temporarily, because then it’s going to take an appeal. But it would take a while for that appeal to finally get adjudicated, and during that time period, the law will be in effect. So, that is a bomb that can go off on our rights, and we better hope that there is no stay granted. Putting aside all the horrible things in this bill, the insurance mandate is the ultimate killer of them all. Because no such insurance is even sold, and it will have such broad implications. It will wipe out your ability to carry even with a permit, and if you carry without insurance, then you’re looking at serious felony level charges with serious jail time. So, you cannot do that.

Evan Nappen 46:41

Luckily, right now, we’ve got great victories. We’ve gotten so much of this horrible law enjoined. It’s in a position where we can operate within its framework, and hopefully, we’ll achieve even more results with the final litigation. But in between now and then, if that stay is in fact put in place, it’s going to be held. So, let’s hope and pray for the best. We will see what happens. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 47:23

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E134_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 133 Making Bart Simpson LegalAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 133SUMMARY KEYWORDS

slingshot, new jersey, law, gun, weapons, montalvo, defense, second amendment, gun rights, large capacity magazine, lawyer, prohibited, shoot, case, slung, carry, anti, heller, guns, freedom

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, there’s now an effort underway in New Jersey to make Bart Simpson and Dennis the Menace no longer felons. That’s right! A bill was just put forward, not too long ago, right in May. I think it was May 8. To legalize slingshots in New Jersey. That’s right. Now, I have to be honest. I have mixed feelings about this. You know, I love seeing anything that makes freedom increase, that makes liberty increase, that gives us greater rights, and I don’t belittle anything that shoots. I want to have the freedom when it comes to that, and I’m sure you do, too. The only thing about legalizing slingshots in New Jersey that would bother me a little bit, but, of course, I’m for this bill, so don’t misconstrue it, is that when it comes to having to address the absurdity of New Jersey’s laws, if I’m in a state or if I’m talking to people that don’t understand guns, all I need to tell them is that New Jersey makes possession of a slingshot a felony. And they basically fall off their chair. What? That’s right. That’s how extreme. That’s the starting point.

Evan Nappen 01:47

To demonstrate just how stupid New Jersey is to have slingshots, what is a felony level offense, a fourth-degree crime, currently, to unlawfully possess a slingshot in New Jersey. It bans them by name, and if you are charged with unlawful possession of a slingshot, you’re facing up to 18 months in State Prison. If you become convicted of possession of a slingshot, you lose your gun rights for the entire country because you’re now a convicted felon and are a prohibited person because you had a slingshot. How embarrassing would that be to lose your gun rights because you possessed a slingshot. So, New Jersey, by this law, has made Bart Simpson and Dennis the Menace, if they were real people, they’ve made them into Nappen 01:47 felons by their possession of a slingshot.

Evan Nappen 02:51

You can watch many shows where, children’s shows, there’s even shows where they substitute in some of the kids movies, the Cowboys had slingshots instead of guns. They’re against guns, and they don’t want to show a gun. So, they have the character have a slingshot because it’s essentially something associated with children. Now, I understand slingshots can be dangerous. Many things can be dangerous. The back of my shoe, if I’m hitting you on the head, can be dangerous. All right. Page – 2 – of 8

Evan Nappen 03:27

The absurdity of slingshots is that bows and arrows are lawful. There’s no prohibition per se on a bow and arrow. Now, if you use it unlawfully, sure that’s a problem. If you possess it and use it as a weapon, as a deadly weapon, yeah, that’s a problem. But there’s no ban on bows and arrows. Yet, you can get compound bows or even crossbows, and they can fire pretty lethal arrows, broadheads, etc., and that’s fine because it’s not an issue. People aren’t robbing 7-11s with bows and arrows or slingshots, so they can’t rationalize it to a ban the way they would like to do it. So, there you are. You have a slingshot, but you can have a crossbow that fires a razor broadhead. And not that that should be prohibited. It shouldn’t be.

Evan Nappen 04:27

The crossbow is fine, but not a slingshot. Come on, why is that? Why is that even prohibited? It honestly became prohibited by mistake, and that is what I was able to trace. There was an article years ago in the Star Ledger that I had worked with one of the reporters on demonstrating this. You see in the original law, what it banned, was slung shots. If you look at the statute, you’ll see it makes sense. Because the whole list of weapons that are in that prohibited category are what are known as impact weapons. There’s billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sand club, and then slingshot. What does the slingshot have to do with these other weapons that are designed to be impact weapons, that you hold in your hand and whack somebody with?

Evan Nappen 05:32

So, what it actually said was slung shot, slung shot, a slung shot, but the dummies at the Office of Legislative Services or whoever, thought slung shot was a typo and changed the “u” to an “i”, and slingshots became prohibited in New Jersey instead of slung shots. A slung shot is essentially a weight at the end of a chord. Some people call it a monkey’s fist. A slung shot was used as an impact weapon and that’s what it said, originally. When they redid the law, it became slingshot. So, slingshots became prohibited, but the good news is slung shots became legal. So, isn’t that sweet?

Evan Nappen 06:25

Now, this stupid slingshot law has been on the books and no one has changed it. It puts New Jersey in this ridiculous category of making it a felony to possess a slingshot. I always like having that in my pocket as an instant criticism, instant snapshot, and instant demonstration as just how stupid New Jersey gun laws are. So, in that regard, I will be saddened if the slingshot ban is repealed. However, I would still be in favor of it being repealed, of course. I want freedom. I want liberty, I want slingshots to be legal.

Evan Nappen 07:12

Interestingly, these three sponsors are all Republicans, not a surprise. The folks that are normally trying to create more freedom are Republicans, especially when it comes to the Second Amendment, and anything associated with it. Of course, in a Democrat-controlled legislature and executive branch, are they going to actually ever succeed in legalizing slingshots? Probably not. Probably not, because the politics just aren’t there. But if the Democrats were actually smart, and of course they’re not, they would support this, because it removes the mocking element that is just so great, just so useful anytime you want to point out just how stupid New Jersey is and how their gun control scheme is just poorly thought Page – 3 – of 8

out and how absurd and ridiculous it is. So, it would probably be in the Democrats political best interest to actually get rid of slingshots. It wouldn’t be the first time that they actually did do something, arguably, pro-gun just because it was a source of intense embarrassment.

Evan Nappen 08:23

Here’s a couple of examples. Why do you think the smart gun law that Loretta Weinberg had put forward, it was so bad, it was the best, as we’ve talked about, in other shows, the best anti-gun / pro-gun law ever passed? Because it killed the development of smart guns. It was wonderful, and it exposed their hand. So, they had to reform that one and not make it mandatory, so that they could at least try to get some of these things on the market. How about tube fed .22s? I used to talk about just how absurd New Jersey’s Assault Firearm law was, and it still is. But one of the greatest things was to show a Marlin Model 60-22, a tube fed 22 rifle and say, New Jersey calls that an assault firearm and embarrass the hell out of New Jersey, which it deserves. Showing just how extreme and stupid and guess what? Murphy in his magazine ban, when he lowered mags to 10, he signed the law that removed tube fed .22s from the list. It removed them from being assault firearms. Why do you think he did that? Because he suddenly became pro-gun? No, because of this source of embarrassment when they go so far and so extreme in their stupid laws, that it actually causes them harm. It lets voices like me point it out.

Evan Nappen 09:52

Well, that’s what the slingshot law is. I hope they can succeed here, and I do wish them well. The reason, on the pro Second Amendment side, that you should actually be concerned about sling shots is that sling shots are a gateway to enjoying the shooting sports. It’s an introductory weapon of fun. It is something that allows you to shoot a projectile, use it at a young age responsibly and to develop from there a love of shooting. That’s what is the greatest thing about slingshots. I know of Cub Scout camps in other states where they have slingshot shooting competitions, and they actually have a slingshot course there. A slingshot ranges. It teaches young people how to shoot. You can go from a slingshot to bow and arrow into .22s and shooting sports. It’s that gateway and that introduction which makes the slingshot have a special place in terms of getting young people interested and learning the enjoyment of shooting. So, it’s important.

Evan Nappen 11:23

Additionally, it’s a pleasurable sport, and there are some pretty good slingshot competitions out there. Actual clubs, matches, and groups that will have some of the most high tech, fanciest slingshots you’ve ever seen. They do slingshot competitions just like you have archery competitions. It’s very similar to archery. So, if you have a slingshot that shoots an arrow, is that a slingshot? Or is it a bow? It’s a good question. I don’t know. I haven’t had that case yet. But it’s so similar anyway, to archery in that regard. There’s no logical reason for slingshots to be a felon need to possess. There’s no logical reason for them to be a felony to sell or make in New Jersey. It is the symbol of stupidity. That’s why I like it. But, if it can go and if this bill, Assembly Bill 5405, can be passed, then I would welcome it, and I’m sure you would as well. So that another freedom, another potential for enjoyment of shooting sports can exist in New Jersey. Page – 4 – of 8

Evan Nappen 13:01

When we come back, I have a great letter that we’re going to get into. This listener has questions that are very good, about knives. I have a passion for knives, as you may know, as well as guns. As a matter of fact, I collect guns and knives. People asked me what areas do you collect? What are the parameters? What are the limits? I say, it’s very simple. It has to cut or shoot for me to like it. I limit myself very narrowly to that. It has to cut or shoot, and if so, I like it. We’ll be talking about knives and this great question from this letter to Gun Lawyer. Feel free to send me a letter if you want. I always love to read the emails, and I read every one of them. See in a few.

Speaker 3 13:58

For over 30 years attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 15:12

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 15:28

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and you are the folks that I am speaking to. It’s why I do this show. It’s why I’m so proud to be able to do this show. I particularly want to thank the sponsors of our show. I’m sure you’ve heard me talk about our sponsors, but it’s really important that you support them as they support this show and make it possible so I can talk to all my great friends and listeners out there.

Evan Nappen 15:58

We have, of course, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the state affiliate of the NRA, but they are more than that. They are the premier gun rights group in New Jersey. They are the group that is on the front lines litigating in the federal courts as we speak, going after the Murphy Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill, going after the so-called assault firearm law and the large capacity magazine, instead of standard capacity, but its large capacity magazine. These are the actual terms in law by the way. If you ever hear me say assault firearm or large capacity magazine, some of you, being activists, might say, why is he using those terms? They are the anti-gun terms. I have to use them because they’re the actual terms in the law. New Jersey law specifically says assault firearm and specifically calls them large capacity magazine. So, we’re kind of stuck as they put their words or pejorative words into actual law. Page – 5 – of 8

Evan Nappen 17:07

But it’s the Association on the frontlines fighting that. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, defending and keeping watch and making a difference. When you join the Association, you’ll get those email alerts, and you can take action. It’s made the difference many times, many, many times. You can make a difference now, and your membership stands for the strength of the Second Amendment movement in New Jersey. New Jersey needs you to stand up for the Second Amendment. The ANJRPC. www.anjrpc.org ANJRPC.org . Join them and be part of the solution, folks. Join the number one gun rights advocate group in New Jersey. Please make sure you’re a member.

Evan Nappen 18:09

Our other great sponsor is WeShoot, and WeShoot is a fantastic target range in Lakewood, New Jersey. WeShoot is geographically located in just a fantastic area of Monmouth County, Ocean County and the surrounding areas in Lakewood. You have access to a fine range, and a magnificent facility that really is blessing for us to have. Because it’s harder and harder to have a place to shoot, and WeShoot is such a place right there. Geographically located in an area that is surrounded by places where it is very hard to find any place to shoot. But there you have a great place, a fantastically well run and friendly place, and state-of-the art facilities right there.

Evan Nappen 19:08

They are extremely welcoming and extremely friendly. If you’ve never owned a gun before, go to WeShoot, and they’ll introduce you. There’s nothing to be shy about. If you’re a trained, experienced shooter, they can accommodate your needs, and they’re glad to have you there. They welcome everyone, and they have a fantastic array of instructors that are all extremely qualified, extremely experienced. They have great working relationships with all their members. If you need training, if you need training because you’re a smart person and you want to make sure you know how to use that firearm properly, go to WeShoot. They’ll help you out. If you need to get your certifications for carry, they’ll do that there. If you want to know a source, you got it. www.weshootusa.com If you go there, they’ll get you the certification courses and training that you need so you can get your New Jersey carry permit. When you apply, you have to provide these credentials, and if those credentials don’t cut it, if they don’t make the grade, you’re not getting your carry license. WeShoot has never had anybody that they’ve certified and trained, not one person, ever get denied their carry license because they did not have the adequate and complete training that New Jersey requires. So, if you want that to be solid on your application, go to WeShoot. Check them out. It’s important that we use our ranges. It’s extremely important we go to these ranges. We have to support them so that we will always have them. We need them to stay in business. Go to weshootusa.com That’s weshootusa.com . They have a great website, beautiful photography, professional photography, and you’ll really enjoy your experience with WeShoot. I guarantee it.

Evan Nappen 21:18

Now, I also want to announce personally, which I am extremely proud of, my brand-new book. This is the New Jersey Gun Law book The Big Orange Book. The Bible of New Jersey Gun Law. Well guess what? It’s in. This edition is the 25th Anniversary edition, 25th anniversary, I can’t believe I’ve been working in, writing and doing this book for 25 years. It is fully and completely updated. All the new carry Page – 6 – of 8

laws, all the new Murphy laws, every new law explained. It’s all in there in an easy-to-understand FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions_ on 120 topics. If you want to know about inheriting guns, I have a chapter FAQ explaining it. If you want to know about those guns, FAQ chapter explaining it. If you want to understand the assault firearms, FAQ chapter explaining what to do. How to get your carry and all the hoops and loops that you need to go through and what you need to be aware of. I have a whole chapter dedicated to carry permits.

Evan Nappen 22:19

Hundreds and hundreds of man hours went into this book. I do it for you. I want you to have this information in a user-friendly guide so that law-abiding gun owners don’t get into a jam in New Jersey. You can get your copy of the 25th anniversary, fully updated edition. When you get this book, there’s a QR code right on the front. Scan it, and it takes you right to the Subscriber Portal. It is free. If you subscribe, you are going to get updates sent to you with an alert as soon as I write it. As soon as the case comes out or as soon as the law changes, I am going to have an update, and you’re going to get an email alert. Go to the Subscriber Portal, download it, put it in the book and save it to your computer. You’re going to have a book that stays current in virtual real time. So, if you want to buy a copy, go to EvanNappen.com. That’s my website. Easy to remember. EvanNappen.com You can pick up your copy.

Evan Nappen 23:23

So, I have a great letter here today, and this is from Ryan. Ryan wants to know regarding post-Bruen, N.J.S. 2C:39-3 carrying dirks and daggers in public in New Jersey. What Ryan says is, Dear Mr. Nappen, thank you for all that you do for the cause of liberty. Thank you right and I appreciate that. As you know, NJ law mandates that the carriage of dangerous knives, including dirks, daggers, stilettos in public must be for an explainable lawful purpose. Yes, 2C:39-3. I’m aware that under pre-Bruen NJ Supreme Court case and it cites multiple though, and he’s correct.

Evan Nappen 24:07

Under Montalvo, the court holds that Dirks daggers may be possessed inside the home for self-defense in New Jersey but not outside the home under the same rationale used to prohibit PTC issuance to us plebeians. Yes, and it’s true. They even cite Heller and McDonald, both acknowledging possession and carrying solely in the home. But now, given SCOTUS is holding in Bruen that carrying any and all usable, bearable arms, i.e., those in “common use” or not “dangerous” for self-defense is the law of the land. The same logic would hold true that self-defense constitutes a lawful reason for carrying a dagger or other weapons under 39-3. in public. Counselor, may NJ PTC holders or even those without permits, carry the aforementioned weapons, knives in public for self-defense? How should one handle an inquiry by New Jersey law enforcement, answering for self-defense or “for self-defense, officer, as affirmed by SCOTUS under Bruen or would one invoke their Fifth Amendment and Sixth Amendment? Thank you in advance. I’m an avid listener of your podcast. In Liberty, Ryan.

Evan Nappen 25:27

Ryan, you are very learned guy, and I appreciate your letter. It is very well written and does lay out the scenario. Let me explain with a little more detail. So, New Jersey, has interpreted the statutes regarding the weapon possession under 39-3 and as well as under 39-5.d, which is “other weapons”, by the way. Page – 7 – of 8

What they did is in the Montalvo case, they essentially modified a previous case law that was Kelly, and prior to Montalvo, which involved an individual coming to the door with a machete in his hand because he didn’t know who was at the door. It ends up that it was the police, and they weren’t happy with him coming to the door with a machete. So, they charged him with unlawful possession.

Evan Nappen 26:32

Originally, our law prior to Montalvo, well prior to that machete case, the court said that a lawful purpose and explainable lawful purpose did not include self-defense. That’s kind of shocking, isn’t it? What do you mean, self-defense isn’t a lawful purpose? Well, in New Jersey, it was not, and what happened was, the court saw the writing on the wall. With Heller and McDonald, the landmark federal cases, the New Jersey court realized, we have a right to self-defense. I mean, it’s exactly what Heller says, and McDonald’s applies it to the states. Since you have a right to self-defense, New Jersey scrambled to minimize the effect of Heller, of course, because you always have to keep it as anti-gun as possible, as anti 2A as possible. They decided, well, since Heller was about guns in the home, they created this phony distinction.

Evan Nappen 27:43

The phony distinction of the anti-gunners that, oh, yes, you have a right to keep and bear in your home. You have a right to protect and carry in your home. But outside the home, that’s a whole other story. Somehow, outside your home, the Second Amendment doesn’t apply. You know, because the shot heard around the world at Lexington and Concord must have been fired from a Patriot’s bedroom. I mean, what? But it didn’t matter, because what did they do? They said, hey, at your threshold, at the door, you can preempt, carry a weapon for self-defense in your home, but not outside the home. So, Montalvo at least gave us an incremental gain, a recognition that you had the right to self-defense even though we’ve got it limited to the home. That’s currently the status of New Jersey case law.

Evan Nappen 28:42

However, Ryan makes an excellent point. His question is now with Bruen, now with Bruen saying that you have a right to self-defense outside your home. That is what Bruen in essence, that’s the essence of it. The right to carry in public. Does the Second Amendment protect carrying in public? The Bruen court said unequivocally yes. By the way, here’s a test that you can test any gun law as to whether it violates the Second Amendment. The great Justice Thomas put forward the Texas history and tradition test that I’ve discussed on other shows. Now we’re seeing challenges all over, taking down gun laws and challenging them including right here in New Jersey. It’s the reason we got the TRO on various sensitive places already in the Murphy Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill.

Evan Nappen 29:47

The effect of Bruen is immense, and it is an ongoing battle that is taking place. So, now, can you carry these other weapons outside of the home? Are they legal to do that now with the Bruen case? Here’s the deal. We don’t have a case yet in New Jersey that does what Montalvo did when it came to self-defense preemptively arming oneself in the home. We don’t have New Jersey Courts saying, yes, you can now have them outside the home. We don’t have that case yet. But plainly, we have the nuclear bomb of arguments to make it clear that you do have such a right and that it is an explainable lawful Page – 8 – of 8

purpose. Because to say self-defense is not a lawful purpose outside your home would fly directly in the face of Bruen.

Evan Nappen 30:49

However, I cannot tell any of you to be the test case. I don’t think you want that. Until somebody by some set of circumstances, becomes the actual test case, where they now have to go beyond Montalvo, and say, yeah, it’s officially an explainable lawful purpose. Until that happens, I can’t tell you that you’re fine and dandy doing that. Because I know, especially in New Jersey, there’s a risk that you might be the one charged and test the theory out here. The theory that Ryan and I, and, hopefully now you see so strongly in favor of it. And so strong an indication that yes, should be the answer. But that path hasn’t been gone down yet by the court, officially. So, that is the situation.

Evan Nappen 31:53

I know and I’m sure that we will see that question come before the court. That question will come before them. Somebody is going to get arrested and charged for one of these things under 39-3. And if their lawyer is smart, they’re going to raise Bruen and the Second Amendment in the defense of that individual. When that happens, it’ll be a happy day. When I can say to all of you, and even myself, no problem, carry that dirk, dagger, whatever weapon you choose for self-defense. Carry it, and you will not have a problem.

Evan Nappen 32:38

But at that this moment, as I’ve explained, I can’t say it. But we understand the tremendous potential there, and the reason to be optimistic over this very issue. We’re basically running out of time here, but I want to thank Ryan for raising a great issue. This is Evan Nappen, reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 33:09

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E133_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 132-Since you asked…Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 132SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, firearm, law, carry permit, machine gun, gun, written, trigger, gun rights, guns, great, sign, range, lawyer, book, question, karl, carry, state, gun owner

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Have you ever wonder how come after any atrocity committed with a gun, Democrats think the answer is take away guns from those who didn’t do it? I always wonder why that’s their knee-jerk reaction. But anyway, I’ve got some great questions that have come in from listeners. These really get me thinking about stuff. I got to say you guys are really something. You come up with some interesting questions, and I have to ponder them. So, here’s what I’d like to start off with.

Evan Nappen 00:58

This is from Bill, and Bill says regarding – are slam-fire shot guns, machine guns? Hi, Evan. My question for you is: are slam-fire shot guns, like the Ithaca Model 37, machine guns in New Jersey? He talks about N.J.S. 2C:39-1.i, which defines machine gun as: “Machine gun” means any firearm, mechanism or instrument not requiring that the trigger be pressed for each shot and having a reservoir, belt or other means of storing and carrying ammunition which can be loaded into the firearm, mechanism or instrument and fired therefrom. A machine gun also shall include, without limitation, any firearm with a trigger crank attached.” Think about that. Any firearm with a trigger crank attached. Well, I’m kind of cranky at times. What if I attach my finger to a trigger, does it . . . No, I’m just kidding. But the thing is that the trigger crank was added in by the way by Murphy, and in the adding of the trigger crank though, they specifically exempt Gatling guns, which I think is really great. Machine guns are prohibited, but Gatling guns are specifically allowed. So, if you want a Gatling gun in Jersey, you can have one. And man, some of them are really nice. Those old Gatlings are pretty cool. But anyway, I digress.

Evan Nappen 02:36

So, the question with Bill here is, are slam-fire shotguns, machine guns? What he’s referring to as a slam fire are certain pump-action shotguns as he correctly identifies an Ithaca Model 37, but also the most famous would be the Winchester 1897. Those are guns where if you hold the trigger back, just like you would on a single action revolver, if you hold the trigger back and then pump the action, every time you pump, it will fire without you having to release the trigger, and then pull the trigger. So, you simply hold the trigger back and then pump away. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it’s fun. Slam-fire shotguns if you haven’t done it. If you have a gun that allows you to do it. Page – 2 – of 8

Evan Nappen 03:35

It reminded me on slam fires of an interesting. There’s an interesting book, subversive literature. You may have heard of it. It’s The Poor Man’s James Bond. This was a book that competed with the Anarchist Cookbook. The famous Anarchist Cookbook that you should not rely upon, because a lot of the information in that book is seriously flawed. Now The Poor Man’s James Bond is actually a better book of interesting, improvised weapons and was written by a guy named Kurt Saxon. In that book by Kurt Saxon, he talks about when he took a Winchester Model 1897, and he tricked it out by putting a mag tube extension. I think it held like 10 rounds in it. Then he put this T-bar handle with a roller on the end of the bar to the pump. So, you literally would pump this “T”, it stuck out like a stent gun mag off the side of the shotgun. You would pump it, and it would roll in your hand. By holding the trigger back, you could like Ba ba ba ba ba ba. You could really rip that slam-bang action by pumping it with that roller pump mechanism that he outlines how to do in The Poor Man’s James Bond.

Evan Nappen 05:07

But anyway, be that as it may, the question is, are slam-fire shotguns machine guns in New Jersey law? Now that’s something. I had not really considered. Because slam-back shotguns have been around a hell of a long time. Like I said, the Winchester Model 1897, one of the classic pump shotguns that have been around since, well, the late 1800s, was a slam fire. I have never heard of anyone prosecuted for possessing an old Winchester 97 shotgun as a machine gun. There’s only been about a million Ithaca Model 37s out there that function in the same way, and no one’s ever been prosecuted for that. So, if you technically read Jersey’s law here, yes, it appears so because of the requirement that a trigger be pressed for each shot. The trigger pressing for each shot is where we get into the argument.

Evan Nappen 06:14

Now, you could argue, though, that you are pressing the trigger for each shot, and the reason you are is that, even though you’re continuing to hold the trigger, you’re still having to keep it pressed for each shot, and each shot is created by the pump of the shotgun. Whereas with a machine gun, as you and I know, which is fully automatic, you’re pulling the trigger, and the gun is just firing by itself. Its function is automatic, and the trigger is not being pressed for each shot. It is being held, and the gun is automatically firing. But it’s true that New Jersey’s statute does not say automatic and that’s because New Jersey’s gun laws are so unbelievably poorly written, and this is yet another example. They never cease to amaze me with how bad a legislator, who doesn’t know jack about guns, can write crap gun laws. They specialize in it in Jersey.

Evan Nappen 07:23

If we look at the federal law, which has been around since the 1930s, the federal law under 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), has the definition for purposes of the National Firearms Act. “The term ‘machinegun’ means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically. . . ” They put the word in there, automatically. “. . .more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any weapon. . .” So, federal law is quite clear about it having to be automatic and the trigger pull. New Jersey didn’t include that. But often in New Jersey’s deficiencies in their definition of various prohibitions, they do often give a default to federal law, and I’ve seen that over and over again. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 08:28

For example, defining a firearm with firearm or frame until recently. We’ve seen Jersey actually use that term in their ghost gun law. But prior, it took the State Police Admin Code to follow that. We saw the pistol brace that was following federal law by the state, and I gave them credit for following federal law on that. So, it’s not that unusual for the state to do that. Here, of course, it cries out for it. Because plainly, shotguns that have been around for well over 100 years, are not machine guns. And I believe with expert testimony, if push came to shove on this issue, we could absolutely demonstrate the difference in what has been traditionally recognized as a machine gun, and that the old Winchester 97 is not a machine gun. And even though, yeah, it’s fun to slam fire a shotgun, I don’t think you have to worry about being prosecuted for machine gun possession in New Jersey simply because you have a shotgun that operates like the old 97 or the Winchester or the Ithaca 37. I don’t see that as something to lose any sleep over. Although I don’t blame you for asking because New Jersey is still New Jersey, folks, and I get it. But good question and something definitely to think about.

Evan Nappen 10:03

I received another great letter here from Mark. Mark writes regarding permit delays. We encounter this permit delay situation a lot in New Jersey, and here’s what Mark says, I applied for a firearm purchase and pistol permit in the first week of March. Followed up for a status with Wall Township in April and was told not to expect any action on my application until July through August. Is this reasonable given all the CC permits, I guess he means concealed carry permits, they’re reviewing or am I being jerked around?

Evan Nappen 10:45

Well, you know what, you’re being jerked around. You’re being jerked around because the law says for Firearm ID Card and pistol purchase permits, they’re supposed to approve it or deny it within 30 days. So, they are well over the statutory requirement. However, the New Jersey statute on 30 days has no teeth. It has no teeth. Yeah, the law says that. But guess what? The state routinely breaks the law. Now, if you break any law, if you make any mistake in the gun law, anything, well, forget it. You’re going to be nailed on that. But the state, well, we’ll just ignore the 30-day deadline. Try ignoring a deadline for your time to appeal and see what happens with you. But the state, no problem. There’s even case law on it out there. Adler v. Lee, where the Court said, oh, yeah, that’s there. But you know what? If they have good reason, they can extend it, even go 90 days. They just bend over backwards for the state to blow through deadlines that, hey, only applies to our Constitutional rights. So, why should that deadline be enforced?

Evan Nappen 11:55

But the bottom line is, yeah, it’s supposed to be 30 days, and they’re not doing their job appropriately under the law, which is true. That’s what the statute says. Now, it could be that they are overwhelmed with the number of permits and numbers of applicants and individuals trying to get guns, and they’re just doing their best. It could very well be that, and if it is, I can almost understand. It’s not right. It should be funded. It should. We shouldn’t have to lose our Constitutional rights over this. But maybe, maybe, they have legitimate reason, just in terms of the physical ability to get it done. I don’t know. But the fact is, the law says 30 days and that’s a fact. But it’s no teeth to it. There’s no enforceability. Page – 4 – of 8

Evan Nappen 12:42

Now, contrast that with the carry permit law, which is kind of interesting now that we have the right to get that carry license or right to carry, thanks to the Bruen decision. New Jersey’s carry law, if you apply for a carry permit, it says that the police have 90 days to approve or deny it. If they don’t approve it within 90 days, they could try to get an extension of another 30 days. So, that puts it at a max of 120 days. But at that point, folks, under the carry law, it is deemed approved. If that deadline for them to make their decision passes, then it’s automatically deemed approved and that means it has to be granted. Whereas there is no deemed approved for a Firearm Purchaser ID Card or a Pistol Purchase Permit.

Evan Nappen 13:49

So, Mark, if you had applied in March for both a Carry Permit and the Firearm Purchaser ID Card and Pistol Purchase Permit, they would have to have moved on it within the deadline period for the carry permit. Which by the way is the same criteria for whether you’re qualified or not qualified to get a gun because the 2C:58-3, subsection c. disqualifiers are the same disqualifiers for a carry permit, a Firearms ID Card and a Pistol Purchase Permit. So, if they failed to take action, you would get your carry permit even before you get your firearms ID card and your pistol purchase permit based on how the statutes are written and what the remedy is for the failure of the Government to follow the law and do it in a timely manner. Now, of course, I think in reality, they would simply have done all three of yours at the same time being under the pressure of the carry license statute itself.

Evan Nappen 15:06

So, if any of you are thinking about applying and you’re in towns that maybe have a reputation for being slow or just these delays, then put into your package getting your carry and your Firearms ID Card or Pistol Purchase Permit all at the same time. Because then you get the benefit of the deadline in the carry permit law. It’s kind of amazing to even say these things these days considering I’ve been doing this gun law practice for over 35 years, and suddenly the getting of a carry license gives you an advantage in getting licenses issued timely, which is just kind of hilarious, but there it is. Truth is stranger than fiction. When we come back, I have some more really interesting questions to share with you. See you in a few.

Speaker 3 16:08

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six bestselling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer. Page – 5 – of 8

Speaker 3 17:20

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:37

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I really appreciate my listeners. You guys are just fantastic. It’s great to have a voice and be able to get this information out, and it’s great having really top sponsors for this show. I’m very proud of my sponsors. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs is a sponsor that is the state gun rights, top gun rights organization in the state of New Jersey, the NRA affiliate, and the largest, strongest voice for gun owners. The Association is there in Trenton, a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They’re litigating, as we speak,. Litigating against the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill, litigating against the so-called assault firearm ban, and the large capacity, as opposed to standard capacity, magazine ban and a whole bunch of other court cases. They’re actively involved throughout the system, defending our rights.

Evan Nappen 18:51

Every gun owner in New Jersey, I mean it, needs to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the umbrella organization of all Rifle and Pistol Clubs. When you join as a member, you get fantastic benefits. You’re going to get the email alerts right away so you know what’s going on in Trenton and steps you can take and action you can take to defend our Second Amendment rights. You’re going to get the finest newsletter magazine on gun rights in New Jersey. A lot of hours are put into that fantastic newsletter which is chock full of New Jersey specific gun rights information. You’re just not going to find it anywhere else. You can stay on top of what is going on in New Jersey in the fight from the number one organization, and on top of all that, the Association has its own shooting range. You can join as a member or as a range member, and you’re doing your part when you join. So, check out anjrpc.org. That’s the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org. Please make sure you’re a member. That’s where our strength, that’s our power. That’s our unifying force of the umbrella organization that puts gun owners there as a political force to be reckoned with. So, make sure you belong. It’s the least you can do as a gun owner in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 20:38

We also have as a wonderful sponsor, WeShoot, and WeShoot is a target range in Lakewood. It’s really a wonderful facility there. I personally love WeShoot, and it is a great welcoming place to go. I highly recommend going to WeShoot, and you know, we have got to really give business to our ranges. You need to go and shoot. It’s great to have guns, but you have got to use them. You got to train, and you got to stay sharp with your shooting skills. There’s WeShoot in Lakewood, so convenient to both Monmouth County, Ocean County, and the surrounding areas. There’s this great indoor range facility you can take advantage of. You can go there and shoot safely. They have tremendous training. It’s also a place where you can get the training done for getting your carry permit in New Jersey. Their trainers will train you and certify you to the credentials and the criteria that New Jersey requires so that you can get that carry license. They’ve never had any applicant that they have trained, rejected for a carry permit because of not meeting the criteria for New Jersey’s training requirements. So, go there and Page – 6 – of 8

take care of that. It’s their trainers, their facility, and the people, not only the facility itself, but it’s the people that make great ranges even better.

Evan Nappen 22:19

We’ve been talking about WeShoots various counselors and trainers over the last few shows. They have a wide variety of talent and experts that can guide you and meet your needs. Today I’d like to talk to you about Karl. Now Karl is one of the instructors at WeShoot. Karl joined WeShoot in October of 2022, and he has absolutely established himself as a reliable and valuable member of the WeShoot team. Not only does he work the retail side of their operation, you can go there and talk with Karl, and he’ll be able to help you with any of your purchases or things you’re looking to acquire through the retail operation, but he is also credentialed as an NRA pistol instructor. He also graduated and became a USCCA carry and home defense fundamentals instructor, and he is furthering his education as we speak at the American Gunsmithing Institute. His classes have been getting the highest ratings, and he keeps getting five-star Google reviews. All the folks that take his classes love him from beginners to advanced shooters. We need that CCW qualification course, and he’ll get you there.

Evan Nappen 23:53

So, make sure you visit WeShoot and check out Karl and the great lessons that he’s put together. He’ll be making a really great new class which is going to be offered this summer, and I’m sure that’s going to be very popular. You want to get in on Karl’s new class designed for current New Jersey carry permit holders looking to elevate their skill and push their limits. You can also book a private class with Karl. He is available on Wednesday and Friday nights. So, don’t miss out on that opportunity. Get yourself to WeShoot. There’s so much to offer there. If you just want to relax and target shoot, if you need to get great training, or if you need to get credentialed, you name it. There’s this great facility so convenient for all the good folks in that area. We need these ranges because if we don’t have a place to shoot, we’re going to be in bad shape. So, make sure you give your business to the ranges and to our sponsors. Find out more about WeShoot, go to www.weshootusa.com . That’s weshootusa.com. Check out their great website. Beautiful photography. They really do a great job, folks.

Evan Nappen 25:24

Also, I want to mention my new book, for those of you that listened to the last podcast, I know you know about it, but I’m really proud of this book. I just got some of the printed copies in my own hands, and I’m looking at this. This thing is just really set. It’s the 25th anniversary year edition. I can’t believe it is 25 years of this book, revisions and additions throughout. This is the ultimate one. It is completely up to date and has everything you need to know about the laws at the moment. Right now. How to get your carry. All these topics in detail. All the specifics you want to know. Inheriting guns, assault firearms, all these questions. It’s all there in a FAQ. Easy to understand. Look, I made it as a tool to help you. I wrote it so that it would be user friendly, so that gun owners can protect themselves by knowing the law in Jersey and not getting stuck in the trap that New Jersey sets. It’s been a really huge success. This book is just the pinnacle.

Evan Nappen 26:43

And let me say, I’ve been able to, now with modern technology, have a QR code on the front of the book. Scan that QR code, and it will take you to my Subscriber Portal. Subscribe for free, and you’re Page – 7 – of 8

going to get alerts. As soon as I write that alert, it’s going out via email, and the alerts are going to tell you about any changes. The changes, additions, whatever the news is, whatever the last change, whatever the cases have done, you get to download it free from the Subscriber archive. It’s all free. So, now you’ll be able to have a book that is absolutely current and up to date at all times. Get the 25th edition, and you are set. Scan that code, and you will know the current law, because I am keeping it absolutely current to the maximum speed that I’m able to, folks. So, take advantage of that if you’re interested in picking up a copy. It’s over 500 pages, 516 pages, folks, to explain New Jersey gun laws. Just go to my website, EvanNappen.com (www.EvanNappen.com), and click on the book there and get a copy.

Evan Nappen 28:13

I know that you will appreciate it. People love it. The only complaint I’ve had is, they say never lend it to anyone because you’ll never get it back. They do mention that. I guess the way to solve it is to buy more than one copy. But that’s what one complaint I had. The other thing that I think is kind of funny but true. They say it makes an excellent bathroom book because you can just read one of those chapters at a time there. You know the FAQs on whatever subject may interest you at the moment. So, whatever, hey. Reading it, having it, you have the knowledge, the power. Check out EvanNappen.com and get the 25th Anniversary Edition of New Jersey Gun Law.

Evan Nappen 28:59

Now I have a question from Maryalice. This is an interesting question. Maryalice says regarding hold harmless agreements when going to a new range. Okay. Hi, Evan. I would appreciate an understanding of the hold harmless agreement that every range requires be signed before shooting. I’m sure you’ve written a few of these in your day. I have, as a matter of fact. Some ranges have 1/2 page of legalese and others have as many as five pages. Here is my concern. What rights am I signing away? No range will give me a copy of what I signed, and without that I can’t attempt to understand what I just signed. I feel like I’m just signing it under duress without the proper attention to its legal content. I realize that shooting sports can be inherently dangerous but what if thru the range negligence I was hurt on the property? What if a leaky roof allowed for the air conditioning unit to fall down on the building and hurt me? Did I sign away my right to sue for non-firearm negligence? With all the concerns of our constitutional rights being abused, what rights am I signing away? Thank you for some clarity and for all your wonderful advice.

Evan Nappen 30:14

Well, watch out for that clause in there where you give up your firstborn male child. That’s one that does cause a lot of concern for people. No, but actually, the problem here is, it’s going to depend on what the release says. So, yes, you have to sign a release, but they’re not stopping you from reading the release. The first thing you need to do is read it. Okay. As a matter of fact, any contract, anything you’re going to sign, make sure you read it. If you’re going to engage in any kind of serious purchase, acquisition, contract, or rental agreement, you should really have a lawyer read it. Now, I’m not telling you to have your lawyer read the hold harmless agreement at the range necessarily, but you need to read it. Page – 8 – of 8

Evan Nappen 31:05

So, you need to read it, and it will say about what rights you’re giving or what you aren’t doing. And if you can’t live with that, then don’t sign it. But you should also know that many of these hold harmless agreements are not made of stone. It’s basically understood that any decent lawyer can eventually overcome this type of hold harmless for some of the reasons you even mentioned there. Because it’s a contract of adhesion, which means you had no ability to negotiate it, it was all there, and you either signed it or didn’t sign it. You didn’t negotiate terms, and there’s ways to go about breaking these things. It’s just another hurdle because of how much this society litigates and sues at the drop of a hat. Ranges are trying to protect themselves from the onslaught of litigation that our society is so eager to bring, especially when it comes to even what might be attempts by those that don’t like guns to take down ranges and such. So, you have to understand that they need to protect themselves, which is absolutely true. But you should not be abused in what you sign. So, read it and see if it’s reasonable. That’s the first thing to do. Is it reasonable? I don’t know what the provisions of this particular release says until you actually read it.

Evan Nappen 32:51

Now, I will tell you that, yes, I’ve written a number of these for ranges, and I write them to be fair and to protect the range’s interest, and to make it so that a court would not see this as a problem and something that could be stronger to be upheld. We write with a little trick that I like to do, a little added bonus, to help secure it, and that is the person certifies when they sign it that it’s true. You’re certifying that you agree and that it’s true. The thing about certification in New Jersey is that certification has the same effect as if it was an affidavit, believe it or not. So, you can give releases more strength and ability to withstand legal challenge. But again, they’re not unbreakable. The most important thing is for you to make a careful review, read it, and think about it. If you have questions, ask the person who’s having you sign it, what it means, and get that clarified. That’s really the best way to do it so that you don’t feel that you’re just making yourself incredibly vulnerable and instead, it’s reasonable, and you understand they’re just trying to stop from becoming a victim in an abuse of the legal system that you see take place in all different occasions throughout the system.

Evan Nappen 34:42

Really, we need what is called tort reform. We need it, but most lawyers don’t think we need it. Of course, they don’t, because this is where they’re making their money. But it’s always, oh, we make it safer for society, this and that. Yeah, right. Well, I’m not one of those guys. I’m not a personal injury attorney, and I believe in tort reform. What I do as an attorney is I fight the Government, and I fight for individual rights. Of course, the number one right that I fight for, I bet you can’t guess what it is, is the Second Amendment, and that’s where my law practice goes. But still, this is an interesting question. It’s something that does come up, and I appreciate Maryalice that you sent that question in. This is Evan Nappen, reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 35:48

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E132_transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 131-Evan’s New BookAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 131SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearms, new jersey, book, law, gun, guns, explain, jersey, permits, gun laws, insurance, carry permit, folks, exemptions, chapter, important, gun rights, topics, laws, lakewood

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I have a really great announcement to make. It’s something that I’m extremely excited about, and I can’t wait to share it with you. And I’m here today able to share it with you, thanks to our sponsors, which are the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, and WeShoot, which is a fantastic target range down in Lakewood, New Jersey. We’re going to talk more about our sponsors later. But let me tell you what my exciting news is. And that is, I have a new book. The new book is The New Jersey Gun Law book. My famous New Jersey Gun Law book. But it is the 25th Anniversary Edition, folks. Yep. Pretty old, I gotta say. 25th anniversary edition.

Evan Nappen 01:17

It is fully and completely revised and updated and brought to complete current state of the law. We are talking about hundreds and hundreds of man hours that I put in to get all of this in one source for you, folks. Really did, because it’s a labor of love. And I mean, it really is a labor of love. This book is the Bible of New Jersey Gun Law. If you aren’t familiar with my book, it is different than any other law book you’ve ever seen. I actually take 120 of New Jersey’s toughest gun law topics, all the confusing things, and I address each topic in an FAQ, in its own FAQ format, so that you are able to understand the New Jersey gun laws. Imagine even making that statement – able to understand New Jersey gun laws. Yes, you actually are able to, by using my book, and I purposely wrote it this way. I purposely set out in my mission and my calling to teach New Jerseyans New Jersey gun law. So, they don’t become victims of New Jersey gun law.

Evan Nappen 02:49

Because New Jersey gun law has been, as long as I’ve been a practicing attorney, a trap. It’s been a trap for gun owners, so they can get ensnared and then get disenfranchised of their Second Amendment rights. It’s all a giant setup. In order to be a law-abiding gun owner in Jersey, you’ve got to know these laws. You’ve got to follow and play that game. And if you don’t, the consequences are very serious because New Jersey gun laws are felony level offenses, left and right, for the dumbest stuff. I mean, where else in the country is possession of a slingshot a felony? But in New Jersey, it sure is, and the laws are a seamless web. So, if you wanted to understand New Jersey gun law on your own, and you just said, hey, let me read the law in the law book. You’re not going to know Jersey gun law from that. You’re going to need to know the cases that interpreted the law. You’re going to need to know the Attorney General and State Police opinions that may affect that law. You’re going to need to know the Page – 2 – of 11

laws in other places and in other statutes that affect the law. It’s this seamless web of law to try to understand any given topic.

Evan Nappen 04:20

By the way I’ve done it, I’ve broken it down in topic by topic and can give you the understanding. Then once you have that understanding, you can read the actual laws yourself, look at the sources that I’ve identified, etc. and gain your body of knowledge from it. Let me tell you. When I first started and was a brand-new lawyer, I was asked to speak at some gun clubs about the gun laws because people wanted to know about them. So, I was at a gun club. I was actually at the Jersey Arms Collectors up in North Jersey, and it was one of their collector meetings. I was going to talk about the gun laws, and I put together a little photocopied pamphlet of just the laws themselves. Chapter 39, Chapter 58, and some other interesting laws. I put some other little things together in this other stuff that I thought was important for the meeting. I had it bound. I had to put in little, do you remember those little plastic spiral bindings? You don’t see them too much. Those plastic spirally things that go through all the little holes on the side of paper. So, I had the spiral bound things, and I got them done at the stationery store at the time. I had about 40 of these booklets that I just made up, and I went and gave the talk.

Evan Nappen 06:08

I had them and I said, look, you can have these for just $5 each. It’s what they cost me to have them bound. And to do this, maybe it was four or five, whatever it was at the time. I couldn’t believe it. I sold every one of those books, and I wasn’t going there to sell books, folks. But everybody wanted one. And I said, wow, there really is a demand to have something out there. And that idea hit me from that experience that I really need to do even more. It needs to be more in- depth, and it needs to have more of an explanation. It needs to answer the questions that all these folks have.

Evan Nappen 06:48

So, at some point after, believe it or not, I went on a cruise with my family, a family vacation. While we’re out on that cruise, they’re beautiful, and you know, I love the water. I love boats. I was out on the deck of that cruise ship. Before you get to the ports, you have a lot of time on the ship and relax, very nice. I sat there on the deck of that ship and had some nice boat drinks. And I wrote what essentially became the first Nappen Gun Law book. That first book was quite a challenge. No one had ever done anything like it. And it was a huge success. Folks really loved it, and I was really very happy about that. I expanded on that over the years, multiple editions, expanded, and expanded. Now it’s over 500 pages, the gun law book. It’s got more topics, more explanations, and it’s indispensable.

Evan Nappen 08:06

Folks, while I was writing this book, all the work that it took just to get the current book made, and covering everything, just the amount of labor intensive time to get all this right and have a great way of explaining so that you could easily understand it, I said to myself, if I had to write this book from scratch, I wouldn’t do it. That’s how crazy it would be if I didn’t have all the legacy writing and everything behind it. I swear it would just be too much of an undertaking, too crazy. I would have to stop practicing law for six months to do it, or a year. But luckily, that’s not the case. As it has evolved, I’ve been able to write this and bring it all up to date, chock full of addressing all the Murphy laws, the new carry law and Page – 3 – of 11

how to get your permit and all the things you need to know about that. I get into ghost guns, all kinds of topics. I’ll review a number of the chapters so you can see just how intense they are.

Evan Nappen 09:16

But here’s the thing that makes me so excited about this book. One of the things with laws, I’m sure you know, is that things change. People say well, what about when it changes? Do I just have an obsolete book when it changes? Now the way things are constantly changing, how do you stay on top of what you knew and what changed? So, what I have is on the front cover of the book and through the book, there are QR code. It’s a QR code. Just scan that QR code, and it takes you to the Subscriber Portal. And this is 100% free, folks The Subscriber Portal is free. You get the book, and you now have the base. You now have the FAQs. You have the topics, and you now have this tool to understand the gun laws. Scan into the subscriber portal. Subscribe for free. Then you’re going to have exclusive access to the archive that will have every update and alert that I will do.

Evan Nappen 10:29

And what I expect is, for example, as soon as news breaks, where there’s a case that comes down, that changes assault firearms or magazines or sensitive places on carry, whatever, not only are you going to be able to access the update that you can just print and download for your book. But I’m going to send out a real time email alert to all the subscribers, letting you know right away that an update has been published. So, you’re going to get notice of it. You can jump into the portal and download it. It’s all going to be free and part of keeping this book current. It’s an amazing tool to keep law-abiding gun owners from falling into the traps that New Jersey lays where they turn law- abiding citizens into victims.

Evan Nappen 11:31

This is really a great evolution from that little plastic spiral package I did way back years and years ago to today. Actually, that was even more than 25 years ago with that little packet of information. The 25th year anniversary is actually calculated from the very first Nappen book itself. But remember, I’ve been practicing gun law in New Jersey for over 35 years. So, you’re getting my 35 years of real experience, living and breathing, the Second Amendment in New Jersey gun law and defending my clients vigorously in New Jersey Courts. All the experiences and lectures and things that I’ve read and done, and I put all that into this book so that you can take advantage of it and have this knowledge. And so, I’m very proud of it.

Evan Nappen 12:42

Let me just tell you some of the topics here that I dealt with that I think you’ll find interesting. I’m just going to name some. Address changes – let’s start right there with the A’s. Here’s some important things about change of address. Do you have to change your Firearms ID card? Do you have to change pistol purchase permits? What about carry permits? How does it work with address change? I explain it all. Easy chapter. How about advertising a firearm for sale? Can you do it in Jersey? Do you know how? Is it legal? Explain the answers to that. What about air guns? We love BB guns. We’ve grown up with air guns and pellet rifles. Can you buy them? Can you own them? Do you need permits? Can you get them without permits? Can you have it mailed to you? What’s the deal? I answer all that Page – 4 – of 11

and more. How about airsoft guns. That’s a question about airsoft. Are they guns? Are they firearms? Explained.

Evan Nappen 13:32

Multiple chapters dealing with ammunition. I explain armor piercing, hollow nose, purchase, reloading, and tracer. All your ammo questions answered. So many questions come up on hollow nose. Here’s in writing an explanation and remember, every chapter, everything written here is by an attorney who focused over 35 years on this topic. This is what you’re getting. You’re getting that information backed by me. How about what to do if you ever get arrested? What about antique firearms? What about assault firearms? You want to understand Jersey’s assault firearm law. You’ll understand it if you read my book. The best anyone can understand it. It’s such a poorly written law. I show you, and I talk about it.

Evan Nappen 14:18

In just about every topic, I have what’s called Loopholes and Pitfalls. I talk about the loopholes in the law. I love loopholes. Do you know what loopholes are? Loopholes are simply freedom finding a way. That’s what a loophole is. Freedom finding a way, and I tell you the loopholes. Let you know. Then I point out the Pitfalls. The dangerous traps, the areas where clients have had problems and trouble in these areas and what you need to know so it doesn’t happen to you. It’s all in this book.

Evan Nappen 14:55

Blank guns, bulletproof vests, bump stocks all explained, everything you need to know. Cannons, yeah. Cannons. Remember when the occupant in the White House said, oh, well you can’t have a cannon? I’m like, oh yeah, hold my beer. You sure can in Jersey, and I explain how no question. All about carry permits, an incredibly thorough address of carry permits. All the questions. All the new law. Everything explained. Sensitive places. I name it in detail. Huge chapter on that. Carry permits for retired law enforcement and how does LEOSA work? All explained. Children and firearms, collecting firearms, and the new ban by Murphy, covert firearms. Do you own a covert firearm? It’s banned by Murphy if you do, and you’re looking at second degree charges. Do you know what a covert firearm is? I explain it. I explain it thoroughly.

Evan Nappen 15:59

What about defaced firearms or destructive devices? What about domestic violence confiscation? It happens all the time. How do you deal with that if your guns are taken through domestic violence confiscation? What about domestic violence return to firearms? How does that fight work? What do you do? I explain it. What about all the exemptions? You know that we live by exemptions. Exemptions for possession. There’s hunting and fishing exemptions and law enforcement exemptions. Place of business exemptions, residence, and land owned exemptions. Target range exemption. You have to know the exemptions because these exemptions are where we find our ability to possess firearms. These exemptions are little sanctuaries of firearm freedom. Do you know the exemptions? Do you understand them? Do you know how they work? I explain it.

Evan Nappen 16:56 Page – 5 – of 11

I explain about expungement of criminal records, expungement of mental health records and how important this is. It all falls under what’s called rights restoration. I explain the .50 caliber ban. What you need to know and what you need to do. I talk about Firearm Purchaser ID Card, an entire FAQ, what you need to know. What about if your Firearms ID Card gets lost or stolen? What are your obligations? How about folks that are considering the very first gun? The things they should know in Jersey. I explain it. What about flare guns? What about when you find a gun? Yeah, found guns? You have an apartment or renter, and they leave and you find a gun. What do you do if you find a gun? What are your obligations? Well, I explain it. You tell me where you’re going to find that information anywhere else. There it is.

Evan Nappen 17:53

What about forfeiture and seizure of firearms? There are so many ways in Jersey. You need to know how the state steals your guns so that you can help stop it. I explain it. Oh, ghost guns, ghost guns. Now there’s a word that covers multitude areas of law. You may not even realize how many things are now ghost guns in Jersey. Read the chapter. Read the FAQ, and you’ll get it. How about how Jersey law functions where you’re guilty till proven innocent? Gun buybacks. Are they even legal? How does that even work? What about gun clubs. There’s lots of laws about gun clubs. If you go to gun clubs, if you are an officer in a Gun Club. These are important things for you to know. Same with the Gun Owner Gulag. We’ve talked about the Gulag. I want you to be really aware of the Gun Owner Gulag. That is one of the worst, scariest, most ridiculous things the State has ever done. And that’s saying something. Read about Gun Owner Gulag and understand why. What about gun parts? Can you ship parts? Can you buy parts? Can you own parts? All about gun permits. What about the applications? What about when they delay your application? I have a whole chapter on it. What about when your application is denied? How do you respond? What do you do and should you? What about if there’s falsification alleged on an application? All these are discussed and topics individual detailed discussion about gun shows, gunsmiths, gun storage, and gun trafficking.

Evan Nappen 19:39

Folks, this is just up to the Gs in this book of chapter after chapter of FAQ and explanation. You will find this invaluable to protect you. You will reference it all the time. Let me give you a warning. When you buy the book, never loan it to a friend because you’ll never get it back. I get that complaint a lot. Even on the old editions. I lent it and never got it back. It’s better just keep it and tell them to get their own. Well, I get in depth into handguns and imitation firearms. What about inheriting firearms? This is an important one. Do you know about inheriting firearms because that ends a paper trail in Jersey. It’s a legacy, no registration, no license. I explain it all how it works.

Evan Nappen 20:31

All about knives. Everything from ballistic knives, daggers, Dirks, grabbing knives, minors and knives, switchblades, all that. Machine guns and large capacity magazines, so-called large capacity, all explained. What about marijuana and guns? There are issues with this. Big issues. You have to watch out where the state gets legalized marijuana. Things you got to know. How about when you move out of New Jersey? What do you need to know about your guns? Or when you move to New Jersey? What do you need to know about with your guns? What if you move within New Jersey? All three of those are separate chapters with all separate answers explained. So, you’ll know what to do. Page – 6 – of 11

Evan Nappen 21:11

What about NICS – National Instant Check System? How does that work? What about non- residents and firearms? What are they able to do here in Jersey? Lots of questions there and it’s all explained. What about No Serial Number guns, NSN guns? Murphy’s criminalized them to the extreme. You may not realize just how vulnerable you are with No Serial Number guns. How about making an out-of-state purchase? It’s allowed. Do you know the parameters and how to do it right so you can make an out-of-state purchase. Paintball markers, all about paintball. Pawnbrokers and firearms.

Evan Nappen 21:50

What are the penalties for unlawful possession? You will be shocked to see New Jersey’s penalties. They’re just draconian. Wait till you read that chapter. How about privacy and guns? Is our privacy protected? Are the applications protected? Are permits and who’s licensed protected? Well, I explained it all. What about all the different prohibited persons? Because if you’re a prohibited person, you can get your rights restored often. This is something we do at the law firm. So, we talk here about prohibited persons who are alcoholic, prohibited persons that have drug issues, prohibited persons that are convicted criminal, and prohibited persons with mental health prohibitions and there are ways of restoration. But first, you need to understand the prohibition. Then you know what you’re looking to get restored.

Evan Nappen 22:44

How about purchase of firearms, either from a dealer or private sale. I explain it. What about “Red Flag”? You’ve heard all about red flag, right? Extreme Risk Protection Orders. I explain it in detail and what you got to know. So, hopefully you don’t become a victim of “Red Flag”. Registration of firearms. Do you have to register your guns in Jersey. If so, how? You may be surprised at the answer to these questions on registration. A lot of stuff is counterintuitive. It’ll open your eyes to what reality is versus what the media sells. How about renting firearms? Is that legal? Repair of firearms. How about being a retail dealer? What about revocation of your carry permit? Revocation of FID cards, and revocation of handgun permits? How do you deal with it? What will they allege? How do you fight it? I explain it.

Evan Nappen 23:41

Rifles, all about rifles, just generally and under the law. What is a rifle? How about sale of firearms? How do you do the sale? How do you make a sale? Sawed-off shotguns. They look at the shock waves and other things, and they start making those false claims. What is a sawed-off shotgun in Jersey? How is it defined? What about schools and guns and self-defense? There’s a whole chapter explaining New Jersey on self-defense. Shipping guns. Short barrel rifles (SBRs) are becoming more important as we discuss the pistol brace rule and its impact on New Jersey. All about shotguns and silencers. Slingshots and smart guns. What about smart guns? Well, that’s kicking up big time, and we’ve talked about it on the show. You need to understand it. It’s a major threat, and if you’re a dealer, what are your obligations?

Evan Nappen 24:38

Starter pistols. Stolen firearms. What about stolen firearms? What if a gun is stolen from you? What about possession of a stolen firearm? How does the law work on that? I explain it. Stun Guns and Page – 7 – of 11

tasers. Whole chapter on it. Target ranges. Temporary transfer of firearms. Can you loan a gun to someone? If so, how? What are the rules? Toy guns. New laws under Murphy even on toy guns. You need to know the toy gun law. What about training with firearms? Can you get into trouble just training with firearms? What do you need to know? What about transportation of firearms. Something we do a lot of. I have a specific chapter on transporting on airplanes, transporting on automobiles, transporting on buses, transporting on boats, transporting on motorcycles, transporting on trains. How do you do it? How do you do it legally? What are the rules and regs on it? I explain it.

Evan Nappen 25:39

What about trigger cranks? Do you even know what a trigger crank is? Is that just some cranky person that likes triggers? Trigger locks. Undetectable firearms. What are the prohibitions? What counts as an undetectable firearm? How about voluntary surrender of firearms? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Because it’s something you may need to do. Wholesale dealers. What about wounds and obligations for importing wounds, folks?

Evan Nappen 26:08

That is a sampling of everything that is discussed in detail in FAQ’s, easy to understand question and answer format. So, you can gain a full knowledge and understanding of New Jersey gun law. That’s why I wrote it. If you are interested in getting the brand new, New Jersey Gun Law – 25th Anniversary Edition, you can get it right online. Just go to my website at EvanNappen.com. You’ll see a big orange book right there, click it, and you can order it. It will be shipped right to you. It is the Bible of New Jersey Gun Law. It is indispensable for every New Jersey gun owner. I know it’s saved so many folks from becoming a victim of New Jersey gun law. So, please, if you don’t have this book, please consider getting it so that you can protect yourself and have the knowledge that you need. Just go to EvanNappen.com, right on my law office webpage, and you can just click the links there. Get yourself a copy of the 25th Anniversary Edition. When we come back, I have a couple really interesting letters to share with you.

Speaker 3 27:39

For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk and virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 28:53

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast. Page – 8 – of 11

Evan Nappen 29:09

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being subscribers. Thanks for telling your friends about Gun Lawyer. I try to share all kinds of great information. And you know, I’m really just so proud of that book and so excited about it. It’s just like a masterpiece after all these years, 25th Anniversary, boom. It’s just evolved to such an amazing book on the subject. It really makes me happy to know I have such great sponsors of the show. They make this possible for us to have this voice and to be able to talk about these important topics. Our sponsors include the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Now the New Jersey Association of Rifle & Pistol Clubs is the NRA state affiliate. They are the number one gun rights organization in New Jersey. If you believe in gun rights and you’re a gun owner and you don’t belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, shame on you. I mean it. Because they are the ones that have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton defending our rights. They’re litigating now, as we speak, in federal court on the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill and on the assault firearm bill, actually law. These are laws that we’re challenging. The magazine ban law. The different disqualifiers that wrongly affect individuals. They are there in the forefront in both the litigation and the lobbying. By being a member, your voice gets added to it. You get great alerts and great emails. You’re told about pending threats, and you can take action. They have a fantastic newsletter, which is their magazine. Basically, every member gets the greatest gun rights magazine in New Jersey. This is put out by the state association. It’s important that you be a member and be a participant in our fight for Second Amendment rights. So, make sure that you check out anjrpc.org. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It’s angrpc.org. Join today.

Evan Nappen 31:41

Our other sponsor is a great place, and it is called WeShoot. It’s a fantastic target range in Lakewood. Our ranges are very special places. We need places to shoot. Indoor ranges like that, you know, in this day and age and jersey, they’re always an undertaking to even get made and created and get through all the bureaucracy. Here we have this great resource, and Lakewood is easily accessible from Ocean and Monmouth and other locales. You can go there and shoot in a really top facility. I would highly recommend it. They’re really great folks. I mean, they really are great folks. Super friendly, wonderful folks. And what I like doing is talking about WeShoot and some of the people that they have that are their trainers and certifiers. We talked on other shows about others.

Evan Nappen 32:46

The ability for women to defend themselves. You know, there’s been a lot of studies about this, and it’s very interesting. Women that have been victims, have suffered through assaults and such, that if they end up first getting involved, it’s usually because there’s something they’re familiar with. Normally a woman who wants to defend themselves and is looking for some weapon will first go with a knife, believe it or not. A knife for defense. And why is that? That’s because many women, most women, are experienced with knives so they don’t have a fear or any misunderstanding about knives. Having worked with knives in the kitchen and as such with their moms and what have you, it’s something they’re familiar with. So, it becomes a tool, a gateway tool, to their self-defense.

Evan Nappen 32:46 Page – 9 – of 11

Today I want to focus on something there at WeShoot that’s really great. It’s an instructor they have, and her name is Heidi. Now let me tell you about Heidi. She is NRA and USCCA certified. She’s extremely experienced, and she runs WOW. She runs Women of WeShoot program. Now the WOW program, listen up, this is really cool. The WOW program is a women-only initiative. It’s women only and for both new and experienced female shooters. They meet every Thursday, and it’s a one-hour class presentation with shooting and fun activities. The thing about the WOW program, and let me just say this, we need to expand gun ownership. It’s not a man-only thing. Absolutely isn’t. Nor should it be. You know, the old saying was God didn’t make men and women equal, Sam Colt did. There’s a lot of truth behind that. Because women can become equalized to opponents that are stronger and historically more threatening. They can have the ability to defend themselves.

Evan Nappen 35:09

But in reality, the firearm is, of course, incredibly more effective. It’s the most effective means of self-defense, but many women have not had any experience, unfortunately, with guns, and to many, it’s intimidating. Maybe even to those of us that have had spouses that were shooters and maybe they weren’t. You want to introduce them to guns. You want them with you with guns, and I know maybe you’ve taken them to the range yourself and whatever. But you know what? When a woman can have the woman-only experience with women with women, it’s a whole other ballgame, folks. And it’s so important. This is why the WOW program is excellent, and this is something for you to consider to see if you or those you love want to participate. Heidi gets fantastic reviews, fantastic feedback.

Evan Nappen 36:11

As a matter of fact, May is Member Appreciation Month at WeShoot. So, it’s Member Appreciation month there. They have many promotions, and it’s available to members only. So, you should check it out and become a member. Then you can also access this WOW program. Look, here’s a post that somebody wrote. This is an actual post here, and I think it hits home really well. On this post, it says. “I have many friends who shoot, and several have asked my opinion on having other members of their families using firearms. Some have spouses that are genuinely interested and others that have reservations about a gun in the house at all. My recommendation is to send them for a lesson with Heidi Bergman-Schoch at WeShoot in Lakewood because she’ll introduce them to guns in a low stress atmosphere and show them there is nothing to fear once they have a little knowledge. She is very patient, lets the students learn at their own pace and never intimidates them by going too fast or expecting too much at one time. I had one tell me the other day his wife didn’t even want to go to a lesson with him, that she was just too nervous. But after the lesson, she couldn’t stop talking about Heidi and all the things she’d learned from her and applied for her FID as soon as she got home.”

Evan Nappen 36:11

So, folks, this is the kind of true experience and every time that we get somebody to understand the importance and love of the Second Amendment, and how they can become independent and be able to defend themselves. To the point they themselves want to have a gun. Every time we do that it’s another person with a vested interest in the Second Amendment and all our gun rights. So, this is critical, critical. All types of persons, all genders and sexes, and races and religions. In America. If you’re a law-abiding person and you want to learn to shoot, then I am for you. We need that. We need to have it expanded so that every law-abiding person that wants to exercise their Second Amendment rights can. Page – 10 – of 11

It’s particularly important for women, and at WeShoot in Lakewood, they have a special program designed to do just that. So, check out WeShoot at www weshootusa.com for more information on that, and the classes that they teach there. They also can certify you for your carry permit. They can meet those training requirements that you have to meet. WeShoot has never had anybody they certified get denied their carry permit for having inadequate training. If you want to get that accomplished, it’s a great place to do that too. So, check out WeShoot at www.weshootusa.com .

Evan Nappen 39:36

I got a great letter here from Michael, and he asks, “regarding CCW permit liability insurance. I just received my CCW permit from Toms River. Where can I get the permit insurance that Governor Murphy requires by June 1 with a minimum of $300,000 . . . seems New Jersey blocks firearm insurance companies issuing policies. So, where can I get a CCW permit insurance? I have no restrictions on my permit. Thank you, Mike.” Well, it’s a good question, Mike, because I get asked this a lot. Let me clarify a few things. First of all, my pet peeve, which I’ll just tell you, is we don’t have a CCW in Jersey. We have a PTC (Permit To Carry). It is Permit to Carry a handgun. We don’t have a permit to carry a weapon. Other states do, but in New Jersey, you are limited strictly to a handgun. So, best to call it that. But I know what you mean, and I fully understand why that CCW has gotten into our culture as just meaning your carry license, which is fine.

Evan Nappen 40:40

Now, the permit insurance question. Well, first of all, it doesn’t kick in until July 1. So, it’s not June one. It is July one, but it is a mandatory requirement. Mike, you raise a great question here, and it’s a question that we all are trying to figure out because such insurance is not available. No insurance company has written such a policy that they are selling and marketing to New Jerseyans that meet the standard required. What I understand from all the major insurers, the problem is that it requires that intentional acts be insured. No insurance company insures intentional acts. It’s not what insurance is about. Because of that, they’re not writing it. The product is not out there. And if that product remains not available and July 1 rolls around, everybody who has a carry permit will be barred from utilizing it because you must have insurance. You must have it. If you don’t have the insurance, then you are committing a felony-level offense in New Jersey. So, it’s mandatory, and if you don’t have it, you’re screwed. Okay, that’s it.

Evan Nappen 42:14

There is a challenge going on right now by the Association, by ANJRPC, litigating in federal court, Murphy’s Carry Killer anti-Civil rights bill that has this very provision in it. It is in front of the judge now, challenging the constitutionality. We better hope that the judge declares it unconstitutional, and if it’s declared unconstitutional before July 1, we will be safe. Of course, I believe it is unconstitutional. What else do you have to require insurance to exercise a constitutional right? Do you need to have insurance before you pray? Before you go to the house of worship of your choice? Should you need to have insurance to do that? Do you have to have insurance before you write a letter to the editor and exercise your right to free speech? No. Why do you need insurance? If we exercise our rights under the Second Amendment, you shouldn’t? Hopefully, we’ll get that decision.

Evan Nappen 43:17 Page – 11 – of 11

But if we don’t, it’s going to come to a head, folks. Unless the Attorney General specifically says that certain insurance meets the grade, meets the bill, does cover it, and we get some official declaration about what insurance does it, there isn’t going to be any. And it’s going to be a big problem. Somebody’s going to be made an example of and that test case will go the distance to see if it’s Constitutional on a whole new front, with a person being a genuine case in controversy, where that person is facing State Prison time and felony conviction for having his carry permit and no insurance. But I’m sure none of you want to be that test case. Pretty sure about that. So, let’s hope that the litigation is successful. Let’s hope that a solution shows itself.

Evan Nappen 44:19

But as of right now, there is nothing you can buy that legally, for a fact, meets this with absolute assurance. There’s nothing out there that does it. If someone’s telling you that your homeowners insurance does it, show me that in writing from the Attorney General that says that will do it and you’re covered under the law. Show me that. When you show me that, fine. Then we got it. Then we got what we had from the last show talking about ignorance or mistake the law. You want to rely on the Attorney General’s opinion then at least you have a defense and now you know what insurance you can get. But that hasn’t happened yet, folks. We’re going to see. It’s an interesting ride, that’s for sure. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 45:10

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E131_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 130-Ignorance of the law Is a defenseAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 130SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearms, new jersey, gun, state, handguns, question, law, carry, lawyer, registration, dealer, faq, acquisition, pistol, police, shoot, gun rights, case, possession, folks

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:11

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I’ve been getting a lot of mail. A lot of emails from my beloved listeners, and a lot of them were telling me how much they appreciated the ammosexual episode, which I did enjoy. Here’s one of the many, many emails that I got a kick out of, and I’ll just share with you. This is from Reggie regarding ammosexual reveal. Hi Evan, funniest podcast ever. My father-in-law and I listened this morning and couldn’t stop laughing. We both have had ammosexual tendencies and finally felt the comfort to reveal to each other our own ammosexuality, and it was so liberating. We decided to adopt the Mozambique war flag with the AKs as our symbol and flaunt our pride as flaming ammosexuals. Best regards, Reggie. Hey, Reggie, I’m glad I could help, and I understand just how much of a relief it is to understand our tendencies and to just come to terms with them as I’ve been happy to share with you. So, thanks, man. I appreciate all the email and everybody else that wrote. It’s great.

Evan Nappen 01:35

I also appreciate our sponsors, of course, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the state gun rights, and NRA affiliate for New Jersey. Fighting for our rights, both in the courts and in Trenton, in the Legislature. And also, WeShoot, which is a great target range down in Lakewood. You should definitely check out WeShoot. It’s very important to make sure you go to our ranges. Ranges are critical so that we have a place to shoot, and we can train and stay sharp. We’re going to talk more about what our great sponsors do in a bit.

Evan Nappen 02:16

But I have another letter here. This one is from Michael, and Michael says regarding CC permit liability. CCW permit liability insurance. Now, of course, I’ve mentioned it before, and I don’t want to be a ballbuster about it. But we don’t have a CCW. Although it does require us to be concealed in New Jersey, but it’s not a Concealed Carry Weapon. What we actually have is a PTC, a Permit to Carry, a handgun, but that’s alright. I understand. It’s kind of stuck in the ether there with our CCW stuff. I just received my CCW permit from Toms River. Where can I get the CCW permit insurance that Governor Murphy requires by June? Actually, it requires it by July 1. For a minimum of $300,000? It seems New Jersey blocks insurance companies from issuing policies. So, where can I get CCW permit liability insurance? I have no restrictions on my permit. Thank you, Mike. Page – 2 – of 10

Evan Nappen 03:18

Mike, I do appreciate the letter. It’s a good question, and the answer is you can’t. You can’t get it anywhere. Nobody has it. Nobody sells it. The reason nobody has it and nobody sells it is because insurance companies are interpreting the requirement as having to insure an intentional act. Insurance companies don’t insure for intentional acts. They insure for accidents and negligence and that kind of thing. So, until we hear of an actual policy that is approved by the Attorney General, because then we could rely on it. I’m going to tell you why if the Attorney General ever actually says this is okay. We’re going to get to why we could then rely on it. Even though it may not even meet what the statute says, but it gives his blessing, and we’d be okay. I’ll tell you about that. We’re going to get into more detail about that. But that hasn’t happened, folks. It hasn’t happened. No major insurance company, of any type, that I’m aware of, actually has a product that can be sold to meet this requirement. If they had it, it would be out there.

Evan Nappen 04:24

I know that U.S. Law Shield would be happy to have members have it. I know that other folks would be advertising all over the place. I have heard that some other companies try to claim that your homeowners with an addendum, but it actually isn’t meeting the bill of what is necessary. So, until unless the Attorney General gives the thumbs up for those things, we don’t have anything available. It doesn’t exist. So, if July comes around and the litigation brought by the Association and other gun groups isn’t successful in killing the insurance requirement, then it will be a felony level offense to carry your gun with a carry permit without having the liability insurance that is unobtainable. So, it will effectively kill concealed carry in New Jersey, unless we can get that either knocked out as unconstitutional or somebody comes along and offers something that would actually meet the statutory requirements. But until then, oh, well, wait and see. It’s all we can do. As soon as I hear of anything along those lines, believe me, I’m going to let my listeners know.

Evan Nappen 05:36

I’ve got another letter, and this is from Sim, regarding off body carry. Is that like an out of body experience? No, here’s what it says. Hello, I would like to start off by saying I’m a huge fan of the show. And thank you for being a fan of the show. And all the information you provide on the show. My question is about off-body carry. My understanding is the new carry law requires a firearm to be on your person. Would a firearm in a crossbody bag / fannypack be considered on your person? Also, I was considering carrying in my gym bag. Would that be permissible? Thanks in advance. So, here’s the deal. If you actually look at the statute under N.J.S. 2C:58-4, and you go into the little subsections down where they have the point two (.2) and point four (.4), etc., you will find that it talks about how a holster is defined. It has to be in a holster. This is very important that it is in a holster that meets the criteria for being a holster, and it does say on the person or about, on or about the person. That language is used there, on or about.

Evan Nappen 07:01

So, what it means is you either have to have your firearm, no matter what in a holster, but if it’s in a holster, and it’s within your direct control, your direct dominion and control. For example, if you’re a woman and you have a carry purse, and the carry purse has a holster inside the purse, you’re now, as long as there’s a proper holster that covers a firearm, covers the trigger, secures it properly and meets Page – 3 – of 10

the criteria for being a holster. It doesn’t need to have a thumb break or a snap. That requirement was gotten rid of by way of the Association lobbying in Trenton. We were able to get rid of the requirement to have a thumb break or a thumb snap or a strap. But it does have to completely secure the firearm. It has to cover the trigger guard, etc. If you’ve that holster in your purse, and the purse is being held by you, or directly on or about your person, next to you, the same with a fanny pack. If it has a holster in the pack that meets the grade, most have a Velcro type holster that goes inside the purse or pack so that the gun doesn’t just flop around in a purse or in a pack or a backpack, etc. There should be a separate holster within the bag. As long as that is on or about your person, then you’re okay. But if you’re in a car with such a thing, don’t go put it on the back seat where it’s not in your control. Make sure it stays directly about your person. That’s the key to New Jersey carry.

Evan Nappen 08:45

Remember, you can only carry a maximum of two handguns. You cannot carry more than two. You can’t go do the John Bianchi thing with 40 handguns, all hidden around your body. It reminds me of the joke. After he was stopped once by police and he ends up taking every gun out that he had one on his person, 40 different guns all over the place. Finally, when there was a pile the size of a mountain in front of the officer, the officer said, with all these guns, what are you afraid of? John said nothing. Which makes sense. But you can’t do that. Two is your max gun. So that’s the way to go with that.

Evan Nappen 09:29

Now what I’ve been looking at lately and I want to bring to your attention is the (New Jersey) State Police website. They have what is called a Firearms Information FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). (https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml) It’s very interesting about the FAQ because it does have a lot of questions that are answered by the State Police. Frankly, some of them I may not completely agree with. But the reason I want to review it with you is because of something very interesting in New Jersey, and that is, I don’t know how many of you are aware of this, but ignorance of the law in New Jersey is a defense. That’s right. You’ve heard your whole life; ignorance of the law is no defense or ignorance of the law is no excuse. Well, in New Jersey, it actually is an excuse. It’s an actual defense in New Jersey, but it’s not simply your sitting there and saying, I didn’t know that. That isn’t how it works.

Evan Nappen 10:37

You can find the defense of ignorance or mistake under N.J.S. 2C:2-4 . And what ignorance or mistake says in the law is “a. Ignorance or mistake as to a matter of fact or law is a defense if the defendant reasonably arrived at the conclusion underlying the mistake and: (1) It negatives a culpable mental state required to establish the offense; or (2) The law provides that the state of mind established by such ignorance or mistake constitutes a defense.” A further explanation is in the law, (c) A belief that conduct does not legally constitute an offense is a defense to a prosecution for that offense based upon such conduct when:” Are you ready for this, folks? “when the actor acts in reasonable reliance upon an official statement of the law,” and then it says “afterward determined to be invalid or erroneous, contained in (a) a statute, (b) judicial decision, opinion, judgment, or rule, (c) an administrative order or grant of permission, or (d) an official interpretation of the public officer or body charged by law with responsibility for the interpretation, administration or enforcement of the law defining the offense.” Page – 4 – of 10

Evan Nappen 12:10

HoHo. Guess who’s in charge of firearms in New Jersey? Well, that is the New Jersey State Police, and on their website, they have an FAQ. And that FAQ has a lot of interesting information. The fact is that if you rely on that official statement, you could have a defense, if you need it, of ignorance or mistake of law, even if they are not correct. Of course, you have to reasonably believe it, etc. things we’ve been talking about. But, nonetheless, here’s an official statement, answering a number of questions that are very interesting and important to know. So, we’re going to review a number of these questions, and I’m going to talk to you about these answers, what the State Police say, and things that you may find very useful and handy for dealing with some of these key questions that come up all the time. You can point right away and say, hey, go right to the State Police FAQ, and there’s the answer from the source. And it is a bonus because it is a defense when you rely upon it. So, when we come back from the break, we’re going to go through these. See you in a few.

Speaker 3 13:39

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 14:53

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 15:08

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I am thinking about a number of fascinating subjects because it’s never boring in New Jersey. There’s always some craziness. And I think about how much I appreciate how our folks constantly fight in New Jersey. How we don’t give up. How, even though they view us and mistreat us and even hate us, we have great organizations. There are folks out there that are just standing tall for the Second Amendment, and that, of course, includes sponsors of Gun Lawyer, the Association of Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, the NRA affiliate for the state. They are the largest and strongest and the number one-gun rights defender in New Jersey, and you absolutely need to be a member. Please make sure you are a member of your state association. You want to belong to other groups, too. Absolutely. There’s no limit to things you can do in helping to fight for Second Amendment rights. But as a minimum, you need to belong to the Association. They’re on the frontlines fighting for our rights in the courts, litigating the Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights Bill, litigating the assault firearm law, litigating the magazine ban, litigating outrageous and vague disqualifiers, and all the attacks that Murphy has placed on us. They are battling it back. Plus, they’re in Trenton lobbying Page – 5 – of 10

and keeping an alert eye, and they let members know by email alert about important things so that you can take action. They have a great newsletter. The best newsletter on gun rights in New Jersey, and you’ll be getting your copy as a member. So, make sure you check out and join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. www.anjrpc.org. Go to their website, and you’ll see a lot of resources. They have a great center of all the action alerts and archives. They have all kinds of very useful information, and I go to it a lot. I use it all the time in my work, and I know you’ll appreciate it, check out their website. (www.anjrpc.org)

Evan Nappen 17:34

And, of course, our dear friends at WeShoot. WeShoot is a target range in Lakewood. WeShoot is just a fantastic range, and I encourage all of you to visit WeShoot and join as a member. They’re very competitive in their rates, and it is a beautiful place to shoot. Just looking at some people there, just to talk about some folks at WeShoot, they have Lance, a Certified Pistol Instructor at WeShoot. He really is just an incredibly passionate guy in his firearm training. He is a former law enforcement officer, and he just prioritizes teaching firearm safety, marksmanship, and getting the students comfortable with firearms. Let me tell you, Lance serves as Chief of his Borough EMS squad, and he’s a firefighter. He teaches classes in CPR and advanced bleeding. Having a great guy like Lance there at WeShoot. He offers private lessons. They’re both informative and educational. He’s got a talent for working with new shooters of all ages. He’s received hundreds of positive Google reviews for his style, his personality, and his patience. He’s even trained young adults as young as 10 years old. Lance is really set apart by some very interesting factors such as he guarantees that new shooters will hit the bullseye at least once during the first class. That’s how confident he is in his ability to teach marksmanship and make students feel comfortable with firearms. If you’re interested in pursuing your carry permit in New Jersey, Lance is an instructor for that. He has prepared hundreds of students for their qualification course, and he can guide you through every qualification shooting distance. You’ll find out even more about his training and what Lance can offer you down at WeShoot. Go to WeShoot’s website at www.weshootusa.com and check out the training tab at WeShoot. (www weshootusa.com) If you’re in Lakewood, make sure you stop by, introduce yourself to Lance. Tell him we said hello and tell him you’re a listener of Gun Lawyer. If you’re wondering, he’s there Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday nights. He’s also there Sunday afternoon as well. So, that’s just a little personal note about a great instructor at WeShoot and the great facilities that are down there. I know you’ll appreciate having a range and a contact and where to go.

Evan Nappen 20:34

So, let’s take a look here at the (New Jersey) State Police FAQ, which is kind of fascinating. If you simply go to the State Police website, go to firearms information, and click firearms FAQ. (https://nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml) There’s a whole bunch of questions there, and there are some that just caught my attention. One question they ask about is “how do you buy rifles and/or shotguns, including BB, pellet, and black powder rifles?” The State Police explain how to do that because you need your Firearm ID Card and complete a Certificate of Eligibility for each firearm. Then they ask the same about “how do you buy handguns, including BB, pellet, and black powder handguns? They talk about needing a pistol permit (Permit to Purchase a Handgun) and about a Firearms ID card. And that is all true if you’re going to purchase within the state of New Jersey. Page – 6 – of 10

Evan Nappen 21:25

However, if black powder firearms and air guns and BB guns are perfectly lawful under federal law, for non-residents to buy in other states, and if you’re living or moving or visiting another state, and that state does not have any state laws that are restricting BB guns or black powder guns or black powder, or even antiques that you can purchase in that other state’s jurisdiction under both federal and state law, your purchase and acquisition there is lawful. You can bring those guns back to New Jersey, and you possess them by way of exemptions, the same way that you would possess a handgun that you bought in New Jersey with a pistol purchase permit. And that’s because registration only occurs on acquisition in New Jersey, and it is completely lawful to have unregistered handguns in New Jersey. It is the reason why, if you go and look at the form on the State Police website for registration, it says voluntary, and that’s because it is voluntary, and the State Police make it clear that registration is voluntary. The only mandatory registration other than on acquisition within New Jersey of handguns is for new residents. Anyone who has the misfortune of becoming a New Jersey resident must register their firearms within 60 days of coming to New Jersey. In that time before they’re able to register, they have to first get a Firearms ID Card to do that. So, good luck with getting all that done. But their website, unfortunately, hasn’t been updated by the State Police about registration because they do say that registration is voluntary, and they make a point about it. But they haven’t updated it yet regarding the new resident requirements, so that’s something they should do. But if you’re a resident, it doesn’t affect you. It’s not a problem.

Evan Nappen 23:42

They have an interesting question here, “Can I transport my firearm on a motorcycle to the range?” Now that’s a question I’ve been asked too, and the State Police do say yes. However, they said it must be carried in the same manner as directed above, which is essentially subsection g. of N.J.S. 2C:39-6, which of course is in a closed and fastened case or in a gun box or in a securely tied wrapper or in the trunk. Now you are not going to have a trunk on a motorcycle. You are not going to have a trunk, but they say in the State Police FAQ. “A motorcycle with lockable bags is preferable however saddle bags or a backpack may be utilized with the unloaded firearm in a locked container.” So, there you have the official statement by the State Police on how to transport on a motorcycle, and you see that can have great value when you know about these FAQs and answers to questions like that.

Evan Nappen 24:53

Now if you look at what is question 11, they say “I’ve moved to New Jersey from another state. May I continue to possess my firearm(s)? They say, yes if you’ve legally acquired them, and you’re legal to possess and may be brought to New Jersey, which is true. However, it says the owner may voluntarily register them. And that’s no longer voluntary. Under Murphy’s Law, moving to New Jersey now requires you to register. So, it really should be updated. They get into many other things like hollow points, which we’ve discussed, and they talk about large capacity magazine and tried to do a condensed version of an assault firearm. But here’s a question that comes up frequently. It’s interesting, and it says, “I was given a pistol years ago from a family member or friend, and I do not know if it was transferred properly. How do I get the firearm in my name legally? They say, to take legal possession of a firearm, you must take it to a licensed firearm dealer in New Jersey and request that the firearm be transferred back to you after all a proper federal and state paperwork is completed a National Instant Page – 7 – of 10

Criminal Background Check (has been completed by the dealer.). For a pistol you must first obtain a Pistol Purchase Permit.

Evan Nappen 26:06

Now let me just say here, I know this is what they’re saying. But actually, I disagree. I respectfully disagree. Because the pistol, if it was given years ago, and if it was over five years ago, then the statute of limitations is five years, even assuming it was an unlawful acquisition. Now, the only legal question is, is your possession lawful? The possession is determined by exemptions. Under N.J.S. 2C:39-6.e., possession in your home is lawful. So, going to try to do this contorted registration thing back to the dealer and all this stuff? Why? You cannot unring the bell of the unlawful acquisition to begin with. Now that question, if years have gone by, and it’s passed the statute of limitation on that specific offense, then the only question remains is your possession legal? Possession is regulated by exemptions as we’ve discussed on the show.

Evan Nappen 27:17

Here’s another question (from the State Police website). “I have sold several firearms over the years and would like to know if they are still registered to me in the state. Their answer, as far as I know, is absolutely correct. The registration, though, is for acquisition. Acquisition registration doesn’t go away unless it’s sold to another pistol purchase permit holder, and they eventually somehow merge the data and can realize that that gun is now acquired by somebody else. There are plenty where that doesn’t happen. If you sell it to a dealer as opposed to another pistol purchase permit holder, then it just looks like it’s in your name, even though it isn’t. I had a case on this very thing. My client was arrested, because of an alleged contempt of a restraining order, where they believed he had 14 handguns that weren’t turned over because it was listed as registered to him. But those are acquisitions over 20 years, of which he had traded them into dealers, and such. They were still coming up like they were his, but that was a misinterpretation of the registration. Because all it registers is the acquisition at the moment you acquire it. Five minutes later, if you go to another dealer and sell to that dealer, it doesn’t get unregistered to you. It is an acquisition registration only. In that case, he was being held in jail, and he was being held under contempt. The only way they’d release him is if he turned in guns that he didn’t have. He had sat there 90 days in jail, not my client, until he hired me after 90 days.

Evan Nappen 29:08

When he hired me, I’m like, this is outrageous, because they’re holding you for guns you don’t have. So, I went to dealers where he believed that he had sold them, and the dealers, who all know me, were nice enough to actually pull the records. Now it wasn’t necessary for me to pull the records because they shouldn’t be relying on these acquisition registrations and claiming your continued possession. But it didn’t matter. I figured you know what, I just want to get him out. I can get the data from the dealers where he showed the disposed of them, and I was able to account for all of his handguns except one. I shouldn’t have to account for any of them, like I said, but I was able to get all of them except for one. So, I go on motion to the judge that my client needs to be let out. I show all the guns and how they’d been transferred, and the prosecutor had the nerve to go, well, what about the last one? Again, not even an obligation that I should even have. But what about the last one? Well, I had some news for the prosecutor on that. Do you know what he did with the last one? He turned it in at your county’s buyback with no questions asked. No paperwork, no nothing. So, if you want to know where that one is, go Page – 8 – of 10

through your records, which I’m sure you didn’t even keep, and you’ll find it. That was how outrageous that was, and that’s how messed up New Jersey’s registration system is. It’s not a registration system for possession. It’s a registration system for acquisition. Unless you’re a new resident, then you’re separated from residents and everybody else and discriminated against, because you have to have actual gun registration on you.

Evan Nappen 30:51

Then there’s a question, and this is one that frequently comes up, can I ship a firearm to anyone? They said, no. But they do say you may only ship a firearm to a federal licensed dealer for sale or repair. Then they tell you to verify the dealer. Now, here’s the thing. How are you going to ship to this dealer? That means you’re going to transport it to FedEx or transport it to UPS. I missed the exemption that lets you transport your gun to those places. Now, I love that the State Police say you can ship it. They don’t exactly explain how. My advice is go to the dealer and go dealer to dealer. Don’t go shipping and transporting to places where there’s no exemption for you to possess. Of course, here’s defense of ignorance or mistake of law, I guess, where they’re saying you can do this. But it’s really a bit dangerous, frankly.

Evan Nappen 31:53

Now, there’s one question here. It says, I live in another State but also maintain a house in New Jersey, can I apply for a pistol permit a firearms purchaser card? They say yes. You can be considered a dual resident if you can show residency here in New Jersey. I compliment them on that because that is true. Dual residency works both ways. You can also live in New Jersey and have dual residency in another State. During the time that you’re a resident of the other state, say during the summer months or weekends when you’re residing in the other state, under federal law, you are a resident of that other state, and you can acquire firearms in that other state. If those laws are much more fair and respectful of the Second Amendment, you can acquire guns in that other state. Then you can bring them back to your home in New Jersey, lawfully acquired in another state because of dual residency. Here the State Police also recognize dual residency for purposes of individuals in New Jersey who want to do it in reverse. And that is true, and it is recognized under the CFR under federal law.

Evan Nappen 33:05

Here’s a neat one that I like on their FAQ that you may appreciate. “I found a gun in the house/storage unit I purchased. What do I do? Can I keep it?” Oh, a found gun. That’s always a nice thing. They say, of course, if you don’t wish to keep it, you can essentially voluntarily surrender it. However, if you decide to keep the firearm, provided it is New Jersey compliant (i.e., not an assault weapon), it may be kept, sold or destroyed according to N.J.S.A. 2A:18-72, Disposal of remaining personal property abandoned by tenant. To properly register a found pistol, the firearm should be turned over to a licensed gun dealer in New Jersey and you must obtain a Pistol Purchase Permit. Okay, well, there we go. Again, where does that come from? I think it’s interesting that they’re relying on to 18-72 regarding disposal of remaining personal property abandoned by a tenant. I looked up this statute, and it applies to a landlord or commercial or residential property may dispose of tangible goods, chattels, manufactured or mobile homes or other personal property left upon the premises by a tenant after giving notice, etc. Apparently, they are applying that as well to firearms in the State Police FAQ, which Page – 9 – of 10

may become something of an advantage for folks, if your tenant leaves their gun collection behind or something like that. There you go.

Evan Nappen 34:43

Here’s a good one that comes up frequently. “Are airsofts firearms?” Are airsofts firearms? That’s Question 24. They say “No. They are considered to be toys in New Jersey. The plastic pellet ammunition utilized for an airsoft contains a hollow cavity which do not conform to a solid projectile.” So, that’s very interesting and that’s actually useful. You’d be surprised how many times I’ve gotten airsoft gun cases where individuals are charged with possession of a firearm. Because traditional BB and pellet guns are firearms, and prosecutors and such, even law enforcement, don’t realize that airsofts are not traditional BB or air pellet guns. They’re airsoft, and therefore, they’re not firearms. Therefore, it’s false charges. We see this come up a lot with juveniles, particularly because airsofts are fun to play with, and they are viewed and considered to be toys. It says it right on the State Police website on their FAQ. So, if that’s ever questioned, there’s a spot you can point to right away with an official statement by the State Police about what airsofts are.

Evan Nappen 36:00

Then the last question is an interesting one. “Are Tasers legal? Can I carry one? That’s the actual question. Are Tasers legal? Can I carry one? Their answer is Yes. Period. So, it’s yes to two questions. Then it talks about the Memorandum (October 20, 2017) from the (State of New Jersey Office of) Attorney General where it said about stun guns are legal for sale and possession with only two restrictions. You must be 18, and you must not be a prohibited person. The thing is that Memorandum does not expressly discuss carry, and there’s been some problems with that because of the remaining prohibition for tasers and stun guns that was left in the Memorandum of N.J.S. 2C:39-5d., which is other weapons, where it talks about the manifest lawful purpose as to why you have a weapon. Many folks would say well, I have it for self-defense. That’s my lawful purpose. Yet the courts have expressly rejected that first with the Kelly decision, and then subsequently, they narrowed it, but still rejected it under Montalvo. In Montalvo, the court said you can preemptively arm yourself for self-defense in your home but not outside your home. So, the question then was, taser a stun gun carry outside your home under the case law would still subject you to a problem under that “other weapons” possession charge.

Evan Nappen 37:41

However, now that the Bruen decision has been put out there by the great Justice Thomas. Bruen has made it clear that the Second Amendment applies to carry in public for self-defense. So, I think New Jersey’s law, that case law, needs to now take yet another step and say, look, you can preemptively arm yourself for self-defense in New Jersey. It doesn’t just end at the threshold of your house. It goes out to the public. That is the essence of Bruen. Now, we don’t have a case yet that has interpreted New Jersey’s law in that way. But I think there’s a really strong Constitutional argument, and you have an affirmative statement here by the State Police where the question is, “Are tasers legal? Can I carry one? Then it says, Yes. So, it seems that they’re saying that it’s yes, even though the case law seems contradictory, but I think Bruen gives a strong Constitutional premise now regarding tasers and stun guns. However, if you do choose to carry them, you might be the test case, and that could still subject you to being the fighter that gets that case law changed. I don’t think you want to be that person, but some people want to take that chance. They realize that it is something more important to them, and Page – 10 – of 10

their belief in what is right. And the principle. But then again, I can’t necessarily advise anyone to just do it. Until we get some official guidance, or a case that finally says yeah, the N.J.S. 2C:39-5d. other weapons, that self-defense counts outside the home as well as inside the home. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 39:59

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E130_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 129-Courts Fed-up with Carry PermitsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 129SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, courts, permits, smart, new jersey, carry, gun rights, handguns, judges, lawyer, carry permit, fighting, ranges, law, evan, decision, dealers, license, shoot, longer

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

My name is Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Our sponsors of the show are the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs and WeShoot, which is a great target range down in Lakewood, New Jersey. I have some interesting news to tell you. Something that I’ve seen throughout my career and always said, man, what is the biggest problem when it came to carry licensing? The biggest problem was “justifiable need”, and it was created by none other than the Courts. That’s been decades and decades of repression against our rights by this court-created test that basically no one could meet. Because it was engineered to do just that. By taking the words “justifiable need” and twisting them and torturing them into meaning so-called urgent necessity. Really? Where did that come from? And then making urgent necessity into this onerous two-part test of having to show that you need to use deadly force before you need to use deadly force and that the only answer to your problems is carrying a handgun for deadly force. So, basically, if you have just been shot and killed, you qualify for carry license in Jersey. It was just disgusting.

Evan Nappen 01:56

Along comes the wonderful Bruen decision that eliminated justifiable need, that eliminated this game created by the courts. This Gambit. This bar. This block preventing us from having guns for so long. And you know, the courts never should have been involved in licensing. They never should have been involved. Because the courts are the judicial branch. Licensing is an executive function. Of course, those of us that still had civics, remember there are three branches of government. Your judicial, executive, and legislative. The court should never have been a licensing authority at all. But decades and decades ago, they said, hey, we’re going to do this, because we’ll accept doing this. We want to do this. And do you know why? Because they wanted to screw us. That’s why. They saw it as the opportunity to stop the spread of guns. We’ve got to keep guns off the street. You know, this is the mentality.

Evan Nappen 03:08

Now with Bruen and the elimination of that block, and courts now had real work to do. Actually, issuing licenses that they have to now issue. And they don’t like that you see. They didn’t like that. So, they lobbied hard to the legislature with the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill, which originally was going to take judges out of the picture six months after its passage. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. They wanted it right away. As soon as it passed, they wanted to be done with carry licensing, you see. That was put in so Page – 2 – of 7

that New Jersey no longer has judges issuing carry licenses. And you know, given what a giant pile of crap the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill was, the one gold coin hiding, in it was getting rid of judges from being the issuing authority.

Evan Nappen 04:04

But now we have a new directive from the courts. This directive really is just disgusting, and just so reprehensible to what we’re supposed to be about. Yet in the big picture, it’s kind of funny. Because what it says, in so many words, is that the court is fed up with issuing carry licenses. They are fed up with it. They don’t want anything to do with it anymore. Let me read you this directive here that just came out. It was dated April 3, and here’s what it says. It’s to all the Assignment Judges and the Trial Court Administrators from the New Jersey Courts. And it says, “Gun Permit Procedures – Requests to Amend Carry Permits”. https://www.njcourts.gov/sites/default/files/notices/2023/04/n230410a.pdf

Evan Nappen 04:57

You see, the judges after the Bruen case, now they had to issue licenses. So, they still tried to screw around the best they could with stopping us from having carry permits that could be useful. Not all the judges. Some are pretty good and did the right thing. But others added provisions and restrictions and all kinds of stuff. They conflated the RPO requirements with gun permits and put guns listed as specific guns you were restricted to carry. You had the (Judge Joseph W.) Oxley special there where he was putting that you had to conform to N.J.S. 2C:39-6.g provisions, which only apply to exemptions. Exemptions that require you to have your gun cased and unloaded. And that’s precisely what a carry permit stops. This is precisely what a carry permit says you don’t have to do. Yet, he’s trying to impose an exemption requirement where it doesn’t belong at all. Some individuals got that. Then you have the (Judge Rochelle) Gizinski permits where you have the corridor with 12 or so places barring you, even from carrying in your vehicle. We’ve seen all these kinds of things done by the judges. All the shenanigans out there.

Evan Nappen 06:11

People just want a clean carry permit and that’s what Chiefs need to issue. And that’s what they do issue. So, what happened, all the folks that were out there that had licenses already issued, and they had all these little add ons that needed to go. They obviously went to the court, started going to the courts big time, to get these things changed and eliminated and removed. And what’s the Courts response to that? Oh, let me read it to you. On December 22, (2022), Governor Murphy signed A-4769 into law, amending a number of New Jersey firearms statutes in response to the United States decision in the Bruen case. The legislation, in part, removed the courts from the initial decision-making process for applications for permits to carry handguns. Yeah, it does. You go to your chief, and your chief is now the issuing authority. The only time that the court would get involved was if you were denied, and you had to appeal.

Evan Nappen 07:06

It goes on and says, (Directive #14-22) was promulgated in conjunction with enactment of the new law to establish uniformity in the court’s handling of appeals from a law enforcement denial of firearm purchaser ID cards, . . . And then it says. “Effective immediately, courts will no longer issue amended carry permits or orders to issue amended carry permits other than to correct issuance errors (e.g., Page – 3 – of 7

typographical errors, misprints).” Get a load of that. You no longer have recourse to the courts. Your due process rights on a document issued by a judge no less. You no longer can go to the court to get it fixed, to get it amended, to get it to conform to what the law and the Constitution so require. The courts have stopped it dead in its tracks here with this directive. You no longer can seek redress in the courts. Your right to recourse in the courts, a fundamental right of an American citizen, is now denied when it comes to carry permits.

Evan Nappen 08:28

It says. As of December 22, 2022, law enforcement alone receives, investigates and makes decisions on all new requests regarding permit to carry applications. To that end, applicants requesting to add one or more handguns to a permit to carry, those already issued by the courts, which by the way shouldn’t have been done in the first place, should be directed instead to apply for a new permit through their local police agency. Oh, nice. Applicants requesting to remove any restriction from a permit previously issued by the courts may choose to appeal to a higher court. Oh, that’s a joke. Appeal to a higher court. That means appeal to the Appellate Division. Well, folks, you had 45 days from the issuance of your permit to bring that appeal to the Appellate Division. By the way, if you bring it to the Appellate Division, you will see it in about a year to get your decision. By then your permit is probably going to be close to expiring anyway. So, that is it.

Evan Nappen 09:20

The New Jersey Courts killed our ability to get these improperly restricted permits, that fly in the face of the Bruen decision and what the New Jersey State law said it should be, from in any way being able to get fixed. So, that is shame. For anyone that has these permits, what you need to do, and the best advice is to just apply to your chief to get an unrestricted permit. Dump the carry that you have from the judges that have any of these problems and get your chief-issued carry. Now if you don’t want to do that, you can sit it out until your renewal comes due because they’re only good for two years, and then you’re going to get a chief-issued license anyway. But it just shows you, as disgusting as it is, that we are foreclosed from seeking redress in the courts. When you know that is incredibly offensive, of course, to anybody who believes in justice and the system, that is the way it’s supposed to operate.

Evan Nappen 10:30

But if you step back for a minute, it is also kind of funny. It’s funny because it stands for the very proposition that they are fed up with. They’re at a point where they want nothing to do with carry permits, at least to the minimum possible. And that, you know, they only have themselves to blame. They are the original folks that specifically chose, decades ago, when this was even challenged, and said, hey, why are the courts doing this? Well, even though, we’re still going to do it. And why did they do it? So, they could create the system to bar us from having a right to carry. So that we would remain victims instead of defenders. And now, the chickens have come home to roost. Their ploys have been removed as unconstitutional, which it was. These courts were unconstitutional in their actions and violating our fundamental rights. Now when it comes to doing the right thing, oh, no, no, no, sorry. You’re foreclosed from going to the courts. Can’t do that. We’re not going to do that.

Evan Nappen 11:40 Page – 4 – of 7

Tell me what other issues do the courts stop you from seeking redress? When it’s actually something even done by the court, and you can’t go back? Other than for typographical errors, of course. Well, the good news is, they’re out of it. They’re no longer the issuing authorities. They never should have been. It just shows you how many licensees are out there that must have been trying to get these things fixed, and they just couldn’t take it. Because you have so many other important things to do, you know, other than worry about our Second Amendment rights here anymore.

Evan Nappen 12:23

So, that’s New Jersey’s latest and greatest as the battle continues for our Second Amendment rights to bloom. We’re fighting and litigating in the courts, as many of you know. We’re trying to overturn the horrible provisions that are in that Carry killer, anti-Civil Rights bill. We’re making success and we’re waiting patiently now. Not only did we get those temporary restraining orders on a number of those provisions from the great Judge Bump in federal court, but we’re waiting for that preliminary injunction decision. Hopefully, we’ll see even more of these unconstitutional provisions fall. These are interesting times, as they say, to live in and to observe and to see exactly how the government, how the judiciary treats us. So, take it to heart and look at it carefully and see. This is where we live. This is what our tax dollars go to. This is the reality of trying to be a law- abiding gun owner in New Jersey. When we come back, we’re going to talk about something that is arising from the dead. Wait till you hear about this. We got to be aware of it and have to start with our zombie fighting attitude coming on. See you in a few.

Speaker 3 13:56

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fiercesome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 15:10

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 15:26

Hey, welcome back, everyone. It’s Evan Nappen, and you are listening to Gun Lawyer. I appreciate that you listen to Gun Lawyer. It is making a difference. I get so much great feedback from folks, and I really love hearing from you. I wish I could read every letter all the time, but we only have a limited amount of time. But I’m really happy getting the word out. I’m really thrilled about it. I truly am. So, thanks for listening, and particularly thanks for supporting our sponsors that help make the show possible. Our sponsors are of course the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the number one Page – 5 – of 7

rights organization in New Jersey. They’re fighting for our gun rights as we speak. Every one of you needs to be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That is our state NRA affiliate, and it is your state gun rights group. It’s the largest and most effective, and they are critical. Now this isn’t saying don’t belong to any other group because any other group fighting for rights or gun rights, they’re all good too. But as a minimum, you must belong to your State Association. By doing so, you’re now not only going to help in the fight, you’re going to help yourself. You’re going to get those fantastic newsletters. The best in the state put out by the Association. You’re going to get those email alerts that warn you right away about things coming up in the legislature and giving you immediate updates to the litigation process as they fight in the federal courts challenging the Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights bill, challenging the assault firearm law, challenging large capacity magazine, fighting to get rid of vague and unconstitutional disqualifiers trying to disenfranchise us from our gun rights. These are all the things going on that the Association is fighting for. Go to anjrpc.org . Please make sure you’re a member. It is very important.

Evan Nappen 17:23

I would also like to thank our other sponsor who we love, which is WeShoot. WeShoot is a great shooting range in Lakewood, New Jersey. It’s really important that we use our ranges because it’s hard, especially in a crowded state like Jersey, to have places to shoot. Without places to shoot, how can we practice? How can we enjoy our firearms? How can we do it? We need these ranges. You need to support our ranges, and WeShoot is located perfectly right there in an area that is just wonderful. If you are living in Monmouth County, or if you live in Ocean County, if you live in Deal, Freehold anywhere in this area, you can go to WeShoot. They have a top-of-the-line range. They have shooting. They have training. They have gun rentals. They have classes. They have practice. It’s just a great place to go. I mean it. Really. Go there and you will see how great WeShoot is. By going to WeShoot, they can also get you the training certification that you need to get your carry license in Jersey. They have certified hundreds and hundreds of folks to get their carry license. They’ve never had anybody rejected for their credentials and training. They are absolutely first rate. You know that when you go there you will meet the requirement for getting your carry license and that’s a critical requirement to get that training requirement. So, absolutely check out WeShoot for your certifications, for training, for fun, and to support our ranges. It’s critical to protecting our gun rights. You can go to WeShoot. Their website is www.weshootusa.com. WeShootusa.com. Pay them a visit, and you’ll be glad that you did.

Evan Nappen 19:33

So, what is this zombie thing that was dead and is coming alive again? What it is my friends is smart guns. That’s right. Smart guns are rearing their ugly head again. Smart guns are an anti-gun ploy to take our guns. Let me tell you. Smart guns with their engineering and this technology to be face recognition, fingerprint reading, new models are now emerging. Smart guns are a Trojan horse of the anti-gunners. And just remember, beware of geeks bearing gifts. Because that is what’s going on here. They’re putting this technology into guns under a premise that sounds so reasonable and so well. Listen, it’s safe. One person can use a smart gun only, and therefore, it’s safe. If children get it or unauthorized users can’t use it. Only the authorized user. This is how they’re selling it.

Evan Nappen 20:46 Page – 6 – of 7

But, folks, you have got to remember that the original, strongest, state Smart Gun law was in New Jersey, and this history should not be forgotten. It was in New Jersey. It was passed in 2002 – twenty-one (21) years ago – when rabid anti-gunner, Senator Loretta Weinberg was the main sponsor. She pushed this Smart Gun bill to mandate that Smart Guns are the only gun that an individual would be able to have in New Jersey, once the technology came to fruition. She thought if she made it the only gun, manufacturers would rush to make the one gun, and they could have the monopoly on Jersey gun sales. The exact opposite happened. Because they knew if they were the ones doing it, they’d be shunned, and they’d be hated. There is no market for it. They couldn’t get a gun made. It was actually the greatest most pro-gun anti-gun law ever passed. Because it showed their hand that smart guns were a smart gun wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Evan Nappen 22:01

To ban all other handguns and make it so that the so-called Smart Gun with its electronics can be controlled, can be controlled. That’s right. You know what happens with those electronics. They get hacked. Things like that fail when you need it most. They’re unreliable. This whole idea is to get a Smart Gun to market so they can, under the guise of a safety mandate, be the only gun you can have. I want the dumbest gun I can have. I want that gun so dumb that all it can do is listen to me. That’s it. And I want it to do this really weird thing. Ready? I want it to fire when it pulls the trigger. That’s what I want it to do. It’s called reliability, man, and your life’s depending on it. This Smart Gun is instead restrictions.

Evan Nappen 23:00

Now look, I know there may be certain specific instances where some individuals might say, look, the only gun that I’d be allowed to have in my house is a smart gun or whatever it is. Okay, I hear you. But let me just make it clear. This is a bad path. It’s what they call Malpaso here for us. This is bad. Because this is their intention, and I’m not just speculating. We saw it in 2002. And what happened? Well, in 2014, the reddest Smart Gun bill had to get repealed. Okay, so they started working on that. They had to get rid of it, and in fact, they did. They got rid of it. By 2019, Governor Murphy signed the new smart gun law. They are no longer mandated that it is the only gun that would be able to be sold. Instead, what the new Smart Gun law in Jersey does is it requires dealers to have a gun that is a Smart Gun for sale. It requires every dealer to have at least one Smart Gun for sale, once the technology is approved. And then New Jersey is offering a rebate. They’re offering a rebate, as a matter of fact, if you buy the gun. They’re going to do all kinds of things to encourage it, and you’ll see this is all in the plan.

Evan Nappen 24:34

By mandating that it be for sale, by mandating it, particularly combining it with the micro stamping rule, which is the same idea to mandate this for sale. Okay, not that you have to have it, but that dealers have to have it for sale. Listen to what a dealer has to do when personalized handgun, what they’re calling a personalized handgun, which is a Smart Gun. When this technology, and there’s things emerging right now. Biofire is one of them, that uses facial recognition and biometrics, etc. They’re pushing all these. They are going to be out in the market very shortly. When that is identified by the Attorney General, then dealers are going to have to make available for purchase at least one personalized handgun approved by the Commission on the roster is going to have to be there in the case for selling. Forcing dealers to sell it. They’re going to have to post it in one or more locations in the Page – 7 – of 7

dealer’s places of business, or in a conspicuous manner that makes them easily visible and accessible to customers. They have to have copies of the personalized handgun roster. They have to have a sign.

Evan Nappen 25:46

They have to have a sign with a clear and conspicuous statement, disclosing the features of personalized handguns that are not offered by traditional handguns and advising customers such firearms may be purchased through the licensed dealer. Now you see that. I like this right here. Disclosing the features not offered. How about unreliability? There’s a feature that should be on the sign. How about the fact that if you get wounded, your spouse or significant other cannot save your life with your gun? There’s another feature that should be posted. We’ll come up with a great list of features that dealers should absolutely display when they’re forced to show these Smart Guns. How about the feature of banning all other handguns once this is accepted and out there? We can show that feature by the 2002 Smart Gun law. There’s just so many features here. Mandating the dealers to do this. They must accept and process orders to enable customers to purchase personalized handguns.

Evan Nappen 26:47

Yeah, this is all part of the plan. Okay. This is part of the plan. You have got to recognize it. We have got to oppose it. And I’ll tell you what, if dealers are forced to have it? I wouldn’t buy one. I wouldn’t buy one. No way. No How. If you have safety concerns, there are many ways to properly address your safety concerns without encouraging or resorting to a Smart Gun, whose entire plan is to eliminate all other guns. Don’t ask me? Just read the 2002 New Jersey Smart Gun law to see their plan. They put it out. They put it out, and it was a failure. It absolutely ruined their game. They’re trying to fix it. Murphy’s trying to fix it, so the technology comes here, and that long game is what they’re playing. Don’t fall for it, folks. Reject it out of hand. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 28:06

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E129_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 128-Are You an Ammosexual?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 128SUMMARY KEYWORDS

ammo, sexual, sexuality, shoot, gun rights, firearms, gun, fighting, lawyer, anti gun, identity, evan, important, gun laws, pride, folks, people, trenton, ammosexuality

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, we have some interesting news stories that have been coming through with the teletype. Imagine that teletype. But anyway, one of them I want to talk about today that I thought was particularly interesting. It involves the Democrats switching their party in North Carolina in Charlotte. This is interesting because of what happened to this Democrat, and it actually intrigued me to talk about and share with you a very important, a very important, topic that I know you’ll all want to hear and think about. Before I go any further, let me just thank our sponsors. Our sponsors are the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the NRA state affiliate in New Jersey for helping to make this show possible. And for our good friends at WeShoot, which is the target range and training facility down in Lakewood. WeShoot. It is weshoot usa.com for their website. We’re going to talk more about our sponsors, of course, because we love them, and they help make this show possible.

Evan Nappen 01:50

They make it so I can talk to you about things such as the Charlotte Democrat. This is a NC State Rep, and her name is Tricia Cotham. Anyway, she switched parties to Republican and that gave the Republicans a supermajority in North Carolina. She did this after the vote came down removing the Jim Crow-era racist gun laws off North Carolina’s books. And what happened was, all the Republicans voted for it. The Democrats didn’t vote for it. However, what some of the Democrats did, including this Democrat, was they abstained. They didn’t vote at all. So, they didn’t show up, basically, for the vote. They didn’t vote. And by not voting, it overrode the Democrat Governor’s veto. Because you know how Democrats always want to keep the racist gun laws on the books. So, it overrode it. Other Democrats were extremely upset with her allowing the veto override and removing the Jim Crow-era gun laws from the books.

Evan Nappen 03:09

Here’s where it got really interesting because she was being interviewed. This is actually an article from Fox News. (“Charlotte Democrat switched parties after being called ‘ammosexual’, critiqued for invoking Jesus Christ” by Charles Creitz, Fox News) (https://www.foxnews.com/media/charlotte-democrat-switches-parties-called-ammosexual-critiqued-invoking-jesus-christ). They’re questioning her about why did you change parties. She says, “I noticed some pretty big changes in the Democrat Party right when I got here, and it was very disturbing,” is what she said. This is right from the article. It says, she added Page – 2 – of 6

that she has the stars and stripes on her vehicle, notice she has a flag on her vehicle, and she speaks openly about her faith. Boy, can you believe that? She said, “I’ve used Jesus several times when I’ve led our chamber in House prayer.” She was told you can never trust a Democrat who wears camo. All right. And just this week, I was called an ammosexual. Well, that really grabbed me right there. She was called an ammosexual, and I’m like, an ammo sexual? What is an ammosexual?

Evan Nappen 04:22

So, I decided, like everyone else, let’s just go to wiki and look up ammosexual, shall we? And what does it say? It says, “A person obsessed with owning guns; a zealous supporter of the right to bear arms.” So, what did I discover about myself? I am coming out, officially, today as an ammosexual, and I want to discuss with you ammosexuality, because it is clearly an important topic. I think there are a lot of things you need to consider about ammosexuality and that you may, in fact, be an ammosexual as well. You just don’t know it. So, we need to look at these things. Because let me tell you, coming out as an ammosexual, it takes courage today to do that, in today’s anti-gun environment, of course. Although it was used as a slur against this representative from North Carolina, it is not, of course, a slur. It’s something we need to be proud of. We have pride in our ammosexuality, and I’m sure you can understand why that’s so important.

Evan Nappen 05:41

If you start to understand and see in this new light about ammosexuality, you realize that so many people are actually ammosexuals, and many of these ammosexuals are repressing their ammosexual desires. You see this particularly in the most anti-gun, the most anti-gun voices out there. Many of them are actually closet ammosexuals, and they’re closet ammosexuals because they cannot deal with their repressed feelings of ammosexuality. Therefore, they attack other ammosexual persons and try to do everything in their power to destroy them because they cannot deal with their own feelings. And I’ll tell you. Do you know what’s chock full of ammosexuality? You see it all throughout Hollywood. Boy, is it there. It really is. But lots of times there’s repressed ammosexuality, and many times they’re afraid to come out of the closet about their ammosexuality. If you look at Hollywood, there is just tremendous ammosexuality propaganda always through Hollywood. How many times have you seen firearms used, weapons used, in Hollywood movies? All the time. And aren’t they glorified even by these very people who claim to not like firearms?

Evan Nappen 07:21

Look at Liam Neeson, for example. He makes his living with movies where he’s shooting people, but he’s anti-gun. That is classic ammosexuality repression. He needs to come out of the closet over his ammosexuality. Just think, if Alec Baldwin had just admitted to himself and realized his identity as an ammosexual person, he would have had the training and experience and understand the community that could support him in his ammosexuality. And most likely his problems with ammosexuality and his issues here that caused him to now be subjected to that entire mishap, probably could have been avoided if he had simply admitted his own ammosexuality. Then become part of the group and the culture and understand the right and safe ways, the safe ways to be an ammosexual in our society.

Evan Nappen 08:29 Page – 3 – of 6

There are things you need to know. It isn’t just an easy path for anyone. Just recently I was watching, and you saw, a beer company was heavily criticized for putting transsexual etc. on their beer can. It’s caused a lot of controversy. But look, folks, as an ammosexual, we’ve had Colt 45 on a beer for how long? That’s not a problem. It’s just like early 1960s, man. We’ve got Bulliet Whiskey, you know, that’s all good. So, just face your true identity. And that is what brings me to looking at some of the steps and things you may encounter when you are maybe thinking about this topic. Becoming an ammosexual or identifying yourself in this way, sometimes it can be a gradual process, or it can take place quickly. And it usually involves first, you know, coming out to yourself. That’s what you have to do first. This can be difficult for some, but ultimately, you’re going to free yourself. You’re finally going to find that you can be authentic and true to who you are. Those are important things.

Evan Nappen 09:54

So, I was looking at studies of this in other areas of sexuality, not just ammosexuality, and I found what’s called the Cass Theory developed by Vivian Cass, who actually looked at a six-stage model, folks, for this. (https://www.washington.edu/counseling/thinking-of-coming-out/) I found this model to be very instructive, and I want you to share and think about these very steps. So, what’s step one in the Cass model? That’s called “Identity Confusion.” That’s where you may wonder whether you are or maybe have inclinations toward ammosexuality. Now, I know that many folks, including myself, were first exposed to this in the library. Reading books that had individuals using firearms that were heroic and other things, and it started to occur to me about this interest. Then later, I really got into reading ammosexual books like Jeff Cooper and Blue Book of Gun Values. You have to recognize that your interest is really there in this.

Evan Nappen 11:03

Then there’s what’s called “Identity Comparison” and that’s the next step. That’s where you may feel that you might face social isolation for this interest. That you may have, you’re trying to cope with it, and you feel this. I know that when I came out as an ammosexual to my father, he was very supportive. He said, in the army, he had had ammosexual experiences with many different firearms and weapons, and he understood my interest. I really appreciate having a dad that could do that. It was really great. And he let me explore and be myself to have various firearms and other things in my own development of ammosexuality. So, if we start with the comparisons, you may feel that social isolation. However, keep in mind that many famous people are ammosexuals and were ammosexuals. For example, many of our founding fathers were ammosexuals. Thomas Jefferson was plainly one. George Washington. These great men were ammosexuals, and they were not in the closet about it, either. They were outright open about their love. This is also found in many of our Presidents. President Roosevelt was probably one of the most prominent ammosexuals ever to be president. But Reagan was plainly ammosexual. For that matter, President Trump is an ammosexual, too.

Evan Nappen 12:44

I’ll tell you who else. If you look at entertainment, Elvis was an ammosexual. A lot of you don’t realize that, but he plainly was. He had some really amazing firearms, and he practiced ammosexuality right at Graceland. I visited where he practiced it, right there. Clint Eastwood, I mean, talk about an ammosexual. There you go. At least those folks are open about it, you know. But unfortunately, many in Hollywood aren’t. Every time you see an anti-gunner, whether they’re a Hollywood person or political, Page – 4 – of 6

the louder they’re screaming about anti-gun, the more you know they are in fact a closet ammosexual, just repressing their feelings. You know that every time you see it. So, just realize that about these folks.

Evan Nappen 13:43

Now, the next step is “Identity Tolerance.” Identity tolerance is where you yourself accept your ammosexuality. Although you may have some confusion and/or maybe even distress about it, your self-concept becomes increasingly different, and you start to make contact with other people in the ammosexual community. And that’s where things really start to happen. And I’ll tell you what. We’re going to continue exploring the steps of ammosexuality, because I know you’re finding is very enlightening about this. We can get into a few important things now for the current movement and pride in ammosexuality. We’ll be talking about that when we come back from the break.

Speaker 3 14:47

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator, fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:01

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:16

And welcome back. This is Gun Lawyer, and I’m Evan Nappen. I want to thank you all for being listeners, and of course, it’s important that you support our sponsors. Our sponsors include the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s anjrpc.org. They are the number one defender of gun rights in New Jersey, and they are the NRA affiliate in New Jersey. They’re litigating as we speak, fighting the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill in Federal court, fighting the assault firearm ban in Federal court, and fighting the large capacity magazine ban in Federal court. Additionally, the Association is in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist who is on the lookout for the shenanigans that like to take place in Trenton and to warn us and advise the members of exactly what’s going on and what actions need to be taken as we continue to fight in Trenton. This is important to you, personally, because you’re given Updates by Email right away. So that you know what things that are out there may affect you, that may affect your rights, and what you can do to defend yourself and to fight for the cause. It is critical that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs. You also get a fantastic newsletter. The finest newsletter on gun rights in New Jersey is put out by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Page – 5 – of 6

Clubs. So, please make sure you join and are a Member, supporting our movement and our cause. Go to anjrpc.org and join.

Evan Nappen 18:15

Our other sponsor I’m proud to say is WeShoot. WeShoot is an indoor range in Lakewood. There are twelve (12) 25-yard indoor shooting ranges. We have got to really, really make sure that our ranges are maintained and that we go and use our ranges because finding a place to shoot in Jersey is more and more difficult every day. It’s critical to go to the range to make sure that you have the skill and that you practice and that you train and WeShoot is a fantastic place to do it. They have a full shooting range. They have training classes. They have practice. They’re really one of the best geographic locations for Monmouth and Ocean County, and very easy to get to. If you go to WeShoot, they also have something very important and that is certified training that can get you your carry license. You see in New Jersey to get a carry permit; you have to make sure that your training credentials make the grade. They are certified trainers there and have gotten hundreds of folks their carry licenses, their carry permits. They’ve never had a single individual that they’ve trained, rejected for a carry permit because of inadequate training certification. So, that’s the place to go where you can use the skill and expertise that they offer so that you can get your Permit to Carry a handgun in Jersey. Check out WeShoot @ www.weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 20:19

Let me just say, we’re battling here the mainstream media, big tech and all these forces that want to oppose us in our gun rights and to shut us down. It’s the reason for Gun Lawyer. The reason for it. We’re facing this every day, and WeShoot is no exception. They’re under attack on a daily basis. And meta, you know, Facebook’s new name Meta, they are shadow banning them. They won’t let WeShoot have their Facebook or Instagram pages be recommended or gain followers. You need to check out WeShoot on Facebook and Instagram. They have amazing photography. Their photography is first grade professional. I mean it is in-house and outstanding. Check out the pictures at WeShoot. They do such a great job that many of their photos are used by Sig Sauer and Smith and Wesson. They’ve posted their pictures on their pages. They’re really great. Please support WeShoot. Check them out on Facebook at WeShoot, one word. And for Instagram, it’s WeShoot underscore, you know that little bottom-line thing, weshoot_experience, and that’s for Instagram. Support our sponsors so that we can keep this going and have the voice here to tell you about all kinds of interesting things.

Evan Nappen 22:03

And that’s what we were discussing today. We were discussing ammosexuality. I mean ammo sexuality is in the news. Ammosexuality is what the Rep in North Carolina was called, as a pejorative. They called her an ammosexual to “be offensive”. But do you know what? It’s not offensive. It’s not offensive. It’s something we need to have a source of pride about. We’re talking about individuals and how you come to grips with your ammosexuality. As we’re looking at the different stages, we’re now at the stage of “Identity Acceptance.” This is where you have to accept. You’ve resolved these questions about your ammosexuality, and you’ve accepted yourself as an ammosexual. This is where you start to have increased contact with your community and that’s important. It can be at ranges. It can be at gun clubs or going to gun shows. It’s embracing and becoming part of a community where you meet many, many other ammosexuals. It is very enriching, and it’s how you grow and gain knowledge. Page – 6 – of 6

Evan Nappen 23:20

It also gets you to stage five, which is “Identity Pride.” You start to feel the pride, and you’re part of the ammosexual community. You want to be part of that community, and you get pride in that community. It helps you to deal with maybe some of the anger you feel for those forces that keep trying to destroy us and put us into categories of folks that are somehow dangerous to society, etc, which is just so ridiculous. But we all have experienced it and know it. So, once you get that Identity Pride, it’s helpful to overcome it and finally get to “Identity Synthesis.” With Identity Synthesis, this is where you integrate your ammosexuality with the rest of yourself and your life. You make it part of your whole identity and that’s when you live the Second Amendment lifestyle. folks. You live the Second Amendment lifestyle because you have now synthesized your ammosexuality into this wonderful state of being, of freedom, of an understanding that you can defend yourself and your family, of knowing that you’re capable of handling it, and that you enjoy shooting, admire other skills with shooting, and partake in these events and your community. And it’s this whole absorption that frees you and makes you a healthier person. This is what you want to do, and this is how you’re going to get there.

Evan Nappen 25:12

It starts with the recognition, and I hope that today I’ve helped you, as in fact, it has helped me to recognize we are ammosexuals. It’s the greatest thing. So, I want to thank this North Carolina Rep for putting forward this unfortunate attempted slur that was made upon her, when in fact, it is not a slur. It is a source of pride. We all need to be proud. Don’t let anyone put us down. Realize that those who are the loudest against us are, in fact, closet ammosexuals. The more they oppose us, the more ammosexually repressed they are. You know it, and you’ve seen it. So, this helps to come to terms with understanding yourself and the attacks and repression that we face. We face this in the mainstream media. We face it in big tech. They try to treat us as monsters. People, you know, try to shun us. They’ll try to police me, even target us, and federal agencies and rulemaking, and such. All designed for this to make us oppressed and not have pride but to have fear. We don’t want that. No, no. We unite. We show our pride. We show our pride, and we fight. We fight back legally, by uniting, being politically active, by doing these things, so that folks know that the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment protects us all and is fundamental. And never anything that we should be ashamed of. In fact, we need to embrace it. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 27:45

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E128_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 127-Gun Lawyer Talks BackAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 127SUMMARY KEYWORDS

permit, firearm, new jersey, carry, gun, state, gun rights, handguns, law, guns, fighting, atf, court, requirement, issued, north carolina, nfa, check, anti, jersey

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I’ll tell you what, folks, there’s been a lot of things in the news. I’m sure you’ve been following them. A lot of anti-gun politics, and I’m sure you feel the frustration when you hear these people talking in their absolute garbage that they’re spewing when you and I know the truth. They have no clue what they’re talking about. Let me tell you, it is ridiculous, and this is why I’m so happy to have this podcast, Gun Lawyer. Because I am able to talk to you, folks, and we’re able to vent about this and expose their lies. Very thankful to have our show sponsored by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is the state NRA affiliate in New Jersey. I am also very proud to have as a sponsor, WeShoot, which is a great range in Lakewood. They are just a wonderful place, and I highly encourage my listeners to check out WeShoot.

Evan Nappen 01:43

Anyway, we’ve been listening to this stuff, and it made me think a little bit about, well, some of you may recall the comedian, Jeff Foxworthy. Jeff Foxworthy used to say “you’re a redneck if blah, blah, blah”, and he’d have these great jokes. Well, I’m going to modify that a little bit. So, with apologies to Jeff Foxworthy, I say “you’re a dumbass when you say or believe that somehow banning so-called “assault weapons” will stop a mentally deranged person from committing mass murder.” And I’ll tell you what, “you’re a dumbass when you constantly are calling for gun laws that condemn small concealable deadly handguns, and then have the Justice Department put forward a new rule that makes handguns that are increased in size by way of a pistol brace, illegal under the NFA (National Firearms Act) and restricted under the NFA.” I mean, how absurd is that?

Evan Nappen 03:13

And I’ll tell you what, “you’re a dumbass when you complain about Constitutional carry and claim that it’s going to be the “Wild West”. How many times have you heard them say, ‘oh my god, it’s gonna be the Wild West when 25 states have enacted constitutional carry” and none of them became the Wild West. As a matter of fact, we’re looking now at number 26, which will be Florida, because the Constitutional Carry bill passed the House and Senate, and it is on the way to Governor DeSantis’ desk. He has said that he will sign it and that will make Florida the 26th state. Therefore, a majority of states in the United States will have Constitutional Carry. That means law-abiding citizens no longer need a permission slip in the majority of America to carry a handgun concealed on their person for self-Page – 2 – of 9

defense. They no longer have to be victims, but can in fact be defenders. It is an amazing, amazing transformation into liberty.

Evan Nappen 04:51

Let me tell you, that’s a rare thing these days, because there aren’t too many areas where Americans are gaining freedom. All you ever hear about is we need a new law, and their new law takes away freedom. Rarely, rarely, do we gain freedom back. Here the movement of carry, the ability to have that concealed firearm that you can carry to defend yourself, has been one of the greatest examples of the expansion of not only our right to keep and bear arms, but of just freedom. Freedom. Because it wasn’t until the early 1980s, when Florida was really the first state, modern state, to get “shall issue” carry permits. From shall issue permits and their popularity spreading throughout the states, individuals became used to and accustomed to carrying a handgun for defense.

Evan Nappen 06:11

Then the next step of saying you don’t even need a permit anymore, which is how it should have been originally, has then grown in liberty. And what you see here is incrementalism working for us, not against us. Because many of our gun rights were taken away one slice at a time. This salami tactic of taking away rights. They banned this. They go after that. They cut here. They cut there. They cut, cut, cut. And before you know it, you don’t have any rights left. As much as we want to have a clean sweep and restore all our gun rights, in reality, it’s not how it works. In reality, as the carry movement demonstrates it, step by step, we gain our rights back. And what a great example to gain our carry rights back to the point of needing no permits whatsoever in the majority of America. To be able to defend ourselves and have that best means, the top finest means of self-defense at our disposal. The ability to carry a firearm without having to get the government’s permission.

Evan Nappen 07:44

Now many of the states that pass Constitutional Carry, of course, still have a permit system. But it’s not mandatory, it’s optional. And some people opt for it so that you can have reciprocity in other states, or opt for it because it can get you the Brady exemptions so you don’t need a NICS check. Or they opt for it for their own personal reasons. But as long as it’s just an option and not a mandatory requirement and you can carry without having to get a permit or a license, then we have our freedom. And it is secured and it is growing every day. Even though we’re dealing with all these battles, fighting these anti-gun jerks and every one of their wacko proposals that aren’t based anywhere in logic that have no effect on crime, the carry license movement actually has an effect on crime. That’s the ironic thing.

Evan Nappen 08:55

The anti-gunners constantly push for this gun control or that gun control. They will do their blood dance in some victims of some atrocity, some horrible event of which is so few and far between. Yet they capitalize on it and use it to take away everybody’s rights. And of course, it has no effect on actual public safety. No effect on actually reducing crime. Yet the growth of our liberty to carry a firearm does. That’s what stops the bad guys. That’s where, even if we don’t want to look at it statistically, just you, the individual, to now protect yourself that right there impacts crime, and it impacts your own personal safety and feeling of wellbeing. It’s critical. Page – 3 – of 9

Evan Nappen 10:04

So, this movement is something I’m very happy to see. Of course, it’s been put on steroids with the Bruen decision so that those remaining states, that small handful of authoritarian, elitist, states that don’t want to trust their citizens with the ability to defend themselves and not be victims of crime, even they have to issue carry permits, at least. And that’s, of course, what we’ve been experiencing in New Jersey. We’re in a transition phase in Jersey, because they’re still fighting us, kicking and screaming, and they can’t stand it. It’s no longer just an elite 600, because that was the estimate of civilian carries in Jersey, and now, individuals that are law-abiding citizens have a right, a Constitutional right, to carry and at least get a permit.

Evan Nappen 11:16

This is itself a magnificent change. Folks, think about those of you who live in New Jersey, just how amazing it is to even say that we can finally get a carry permit in New Jersey. Just those words alone. I always wondered if I’d ever be able to say them and being able to say those words is great. Now, of course, the legislature with the Murphy Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill, they’re trying to throw everything at us including the kitchen sink to try to make the utilitarian value of a carry permit worthless, but they’re failing. They’re failing because of the Second Amendment. They’re failing because of the Bruen decision. They’re failing because of the great Justice Thomas and the majority opinion that has empowered the Second Amendment to fight off these atrocious laws. So, we can take a lot of pride in a lot of progress. I know we’re all cynical, and we have a right to be. But we truly have seen tremendous progress when it comes to our liberty for carry.

Evan Nappen 12:34

And you know, the importance of carry isn’t just to us as individuals. It isn’t just so we can defend our families. It isn’t just some impact on crime and all that. But there also is a very important political aspect to carry. And you don’t hear this talked about much, but I want to make it clear. You see, originally in the gun rights battle, I mean, going back since the 60s, the antis gameplan to disarm us, was, oh, we only want handguns. We’re not after your hunting guns. We just want to go after handguns. The original main gun control group in America was called Handgun Control. You see that’s all. So, they could, that way. They knew they could not offend hunters and what a lot of us call the thuds over their long arms, because they just wanted handguns. This approach was also politically done because hunters were such a strong contingency of voters and really a demographic that they didn’t want to alienate. But unfortunately, over time, and mainly due to the diminishing ability to have a place to hunt and such, hunting is not the same force that it was 60 years ago. I love hunting, and I’m sure many listeners love to hunt. But plainly it isn’t. With young people into video games and not the outdoors and computers seem to be ruling their lives instead of actual activities, we’ve seen this diminish. Hence, a political faction that helped preserve our gun rights is diminishing.

Evan Nappen 14:42

But with the advent of concealed carry and the carry movement, it has grown tremendously. In fact, carry has superseded in the importance politically of protecting our gun rights generally and overall. Because every person that has a gun and every person that has a gun for self-defense, and every person who carries a gun for self-defense, and now has that amazing ability to defend themselves and that wonderful feeling of security and knowing that you have the means, the most effective means, to Page – 4 – of 9

protect yourself, that person is now a Second Amendment supporter with a vested interest in their own gun that protects their life. And that’s powerful stuff. And the anti-gunners know it. This is why they fight concealed carry with permits. They fight it because they know that it puts them in an even more difficult position when they try to steal our Constitutional rights away from us. Hey, when we come back, I have some great letters to share, and I know you’ll appreciate them.

Speaker 3 16:15

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:29

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 17:45

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I want to thank you for listening to the podcast. It really makes a difference, and we’re able to get the word out. I really love having this opportunity, and I appreciate your subscribing and having your friends listen and subscribe. It’s really been really a lot of fun for me to do this. I truly appreciate the sponsors of my show. So, I will shamelessly promote my sponsors because I love them dearly. First, we have the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the NRA state affiliate in New Jersey. They are our gun rights defenders in New Jersey. It is critical that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It’s the minimum you can do. It’s the least you can do. And by joining the Association, you get tremendous benefits. First of all, you know you’re part of the fight. Because they have a full- time, paid lobbyist down in Trenton. They’re also in the litigation. They’re fighting and paying to be in the federal courts challenging the Murphy Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights bill, challenging the assault firearms ban as we speak, challenging the large capacity magazine ban, challenging the disqualifiers that try to arbitrarily take away our gun rights. They’re there fighting for you and me. When you join, you get a spectacular newsletter, really the best newsletter on Jersey gun rights there is, and you get email alerts that warn you of what’s coming. Things you need to be aware of as gun owners in New Jersey, both political and factual, that can immediately alert you. It’s really critical that you belong to anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 19:45

Our other sponsor is a really, really, spectacular gun range. If you’ve never been there, I would highly advise you to go there it is It’s called WeShoot, and WeShoot is in Lakewood, New Jersey. It is an Page – 5 – of 9

indoor range, and they have twelve 25 indoor lanes. They offer shooting, training, and practice, and they can get you certified so that you can get your carry license. It’s one of the requirements in Jersey to get that carry permit. They can help you to do it, and they’re experts at that, frankly. They’ve never had anyone that they’ve trained get rejected for their training certifications. So, if you’re looking for a place to fulfill that requirement, that’s the place to go. I do have some exciting news from WeShoot, by the way. You can go to their website, which is www.weshoot usa.com. WeShootusa.com. You can check them out.

Evan Nappen 21:03

One of the things I want to bring to your attention, and especially in these times, they are one of the most affordable memberships on the Jersey Shore. Their plans start at $299 per year for range membership. They also have a monthly plan, by the way, for so-called winter birds, or summer birds, whatever you are here for if you are just here seasonally in Jersey, at only $30 a month. But here’s the deal. Their range membership, all their memberships, include unlimited range use, folks. Unlimited range use. In New Jersey, that is an incredibly reasonable rate. Not only does it include unlimited range use, but it also includes five free guest passes. You get 3% instant cashback rewards on any purchases, and you get 50% off all rentals.

Evan Nappen 22:05

That’s one of the great things in New Jersey. You can rent a gun at the range. And boy, you want to try out different guns, you want to have some fun and try this one and that one to see what’s best for you. You always were curious about this gun or that. What better way than by a rental – just a great experience. They have special prices on ammo, and they have 5% off all accessories. Then they have exclusive access to their member promotions and discounts during their Member Appreciation Month. And that’s right, the full month of May. They dedicate themselves to their members with their biggest sales. Don’t miss it. Go to www.weshootusa.com . Join WeShoot and enjoy a great shooting experience that I know you will appreciate. So, check out WeShootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 23:03

I have a letter here from Jim. And Jim is asking a question that I’ve gotten a number of folks asking about, and I want to deal with it here. Jim says regarding qualification. Hi, Evan, I recently received my PTC from the PD not through the courts, thank God. He’s not kidding, thank God. At least that is one good thing in that pile of crap called the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill. They got rid of judges. He says the question I have here is on two separate occasions during the process. Once when doing the interview with the officer, and second when I went to the station to pick up the permit. I was told that if I wanted to carry any other guns besides the ones I qualified with, I’d have to qualify whatever guns I would carry, and then provide them with information so they can update my file. Based on what I heard in some of your podcasts, it seems like they are telling me some incorrect information. I do not have any restrictions or court orders stating anything in that regard as to my permit, and it was issued through the PD. If they are in fact telling me incorrect information, I’m very surprised at that because they’re definitely a pro 2a PD.The only thing I can think of is maybe the chief just wants to be able to know what anyone in the town could possibly be carrying at any time.

Evan Nappen 24:22 Page – 6 – of 9

Let me just say. I will say unequivocally that if you go to NJS 2C:58-4, paragraph a., the very first paragraph, it says, in black and white, read it for yourself. One permit shall be good for all handguns that a person has. Right there in the first paragraph. Right out of the bat. So, one permit is good for all. Now, that’s what the law says. If the permit has no restrictions, you simply must abide by the law. One permit is good for all handguns. There is no requirement that you certify on any gun you wish to carry. The reason this may exist is that with RPO cards, which was for retired law enforcement, retired police officer, there was this type of requirement imposed by the Attorney General, who unilaterally placed it upon retired police. And that became sort of a mindset out there. Then the judges who were involved, this is what they saw and thought. So, they were doing it to a number of the permits where they were trying to come up with different restrictions.

Evan Nappen 25:39

With the judges’ permit, you’re essentially dealing with what is a court-ordered permit. So, you’re bound and restricted. But as far as a permit issued by a chief under the new law, you can read the law for yourself. One permit is good for all the guns that you have all the handguns on permit. So, you know, that is the story. Now if you want to comply, if you want to provide the chief with certifications on guns you wish to carry and you just want to do it because you want to show that you are qualified on that gun and just have it for purposes of historically documenting it, feel free. But the fact is that the license is not restricted. The fact is what the law says that I just told you. I don’t necessarily think it’s a conspiracy by a chief to want to know what gun you have. It’s probably more about a residue or legacy type action that existed in prior licensing, prior to the new law. It’s that legacy type mindset that really has to be changed. So, that would be my guess, strictly a guess, as to why that might be going on.

Evan Nappen 26:57

Now, I have another letter here from Anthony, regarding moving out of New Jersey. I do get asked this at times and folks want to know, because you know why? A lot of people want to leave New Jersey. That’s why. As a matter of fact, more people want to leave New Jersey than want to stay in New Jersey, which is an interesting fact. This gets confirmed by United Van Lines and stuff, how many people are moving out and how many people are moving in. But here’s someone who’s moving out of Jersey and wants to know how to leave with firearms. It’s Anthony and he says, Hi Evan. I recently bought a house in North Carolina and will be moving there once the purchase closes.

Evan Nappen 27:38

I want to follow the law. This is back to the letter. Sorry, I got diverted there, but I got inspired. I want to follow the law with my firearms during the moving process. I listen enough to your podcast to know how to transport firearms and ammo. But I want to make sure I can drive out of the state with my firearms directly to my house. I want to make sure my legal guns, purchased in New Jersey, have no law requiring those guns to stay or return to New Jersey. Or do I have to have my firearm shipped to North Carolina by an FFL? Thank you for any help you can provide.

Evan Nappen 27:38

Now it’s interesting that you bought in North Carolina because just last week, North Carolina overrode the Democrat Governor veto of the repeal of the Jim Crow era pistol permit law. North Carolina had a pistol permit requirement going back to the Jim Crow era designed to stop blacks from having guns and Page – 7 – of 9

newly freed slaves. This was a tactic. That’s why they were called Jim Crow laws. This law, this archaic law, requiring permits has been on the books since then. And guess who repealed it? The Democrats? No. The Republicans! There was not a single, in the end, not a single Democrat voted for it. Although supposedly three Democrats that may have been pro-gun just didn’t vote, which let it go through. The Democrat Governor vetoed it, but it was overridden. So, the Jim Crow era racist permit system in North Carolina has been eliminated. Now when you want to buy a gun in North Carolina, you still have to undergo a NICS check. That still happens. But you don’t have to get the piece of paper that can be arbitrarily denied to you or otherwise discourage you from getting a firearm. So, I’m glad that North Carolina has done that. It was really great to see the override of a veto on such a disgusting law.

Evan Nappen 29:59

Well, let me just say they have not passed a law in New Jersey that requires guns in New Jersey to stay in New Jersey. That would be, even for the anti-gunners, a tough one there because all they want to do is get rid of guns. They don’t want guns to stay here. They’re happy to see the guns leave, apparently, so that the criminals can have a freer hand and not face armed defenders. But there is no law. There is no law in New Jersey that says you have to do anything when you leave with your guns in New Jersey. When you leave for whatever state you’re going to, you have to make sure you are legal in that state. I’m not a North Carolina Attorney. But you should check out if North Carolina requires anything for you when you bring your guns there. As far as leaving New Jersey, there’s no requirement regarding your guns.

Evan Nappen 30:55

However, there is a requirement regarding your Firearm Purchaser ID card. If you have a New Jersey Firearm Purchaser ID card, then you must, within 30 days, either put in for a change of address, or surrender your card. Now it’s little known but true, non-residents can have a New Jersey Firearms Purchaser ID card. So, if you’re leaving out of state, and you may, at some time, unfortunately, have to come back for some god forbid reason, you might want to maintain having your New Jersey Firearms ID card. It can be useful to buy ammunition in the state and also for having some greater exemption for transport and even purchase. If you want to keep it, you can put in for a change of address to the state police. You can change it to your new address, in this case, North Carolina or wherever you’ve changed your residence. Now, if you decide, hey, I’m never coming back to Jersey and I don’t need that license, you should voluntarily surrender your license back to the issuing authority, whoever issued it so that you’ve gotten rid of it. And that 30 Day requirement no longer would apply. So, the card is something you should be concerned about, but with the guns though, Jersey has no laws regarding it.

Evan Nappen 32:20

Now as far as transporting the guns themselves. When you’re going to go into the state, you want to rely upon Title 18 926 A of the federal law. This was a law that was put through federally, through the Gun Owners Protection Act, that allows for a preemptive ability to transport firearms through states that might have prohibitions or problems. The requirement is that you’re going from one state where you lawfully can possess and carry to another state where you lawfully can possess and carry your guns. Now in New Jersey, if you don’t have a carry permit, you can lawfully possess and carry your gun in your home. Most likely, but you should double check, in North Carolina, you can possess and carry guns in your new home in North Carolina. That should meet the bill under federal law. Then when you Page – 8 – of 9

transport them, make sure your guns are unloaded. Put them in a locked case with ammunition separate. Put the ammunition is a separate locked box and have it as far away from the passenger compartment as you can. If you have a trunk, put them in the trunk. If you have a SUV, put them in the back of the SUV and cover the gun cases. Lock them and cover them. Then you are completely within Title 18 926 A as you transport your locked, cased, unloaded firearms with ammunition separate, going from one place where you legally can possess and carry to another . You can check it out right online, USCA Title 18 926 A. I also talked about it in my book, New Jersey Gun Law and that’s the way to transport it as you proceed to travel interstate.

Evan Nappen 34:03

Here’s another letter, and this one is similar. This is from an individual who says, regarding other firearm with a pistol brace. I’m a New Jersey resident, but I own houses in Florida and Vermont. If I register my other firearm with ATF, meaning under the pistol brace rule, can I legally store and possess them in either my Florida or Vermont homes where registered SBRs are legal?

Evan Nappen 34:33

Now let me say, you should be able to do that, but you are going to have to clear it with ATF. I remember when the 1994 Crime Bill was passed and as a warm up for that, the Treasury Secretary Lloyd Benson, another anti-gun person there doing the Democrat’s bidding, did an ATF rule change declaring Street Sweepers and Striker 12s to be destructive devices and having to be registered under the NFA, similar to what they’re trying to push forward on pistol braces, and then allowed for a free registration, as they are allowing supposedly for pistol braces, and you had to file the federal NFA forms to do it. But if you’re in a state that prohibited the firearm, they wouldn’t even allow you to register. In New Jersey, the assault firearm ban prohibited Street Sweepers and Stryker 12s under state law. So, ATF did not want to allow individuals in New Jersey with those guns to be able to register them, even though they could be possessed in New Jersey if individuals had rendered them inoperable and filed the inoperability certificate. But ATF didn’t want to look that closely at state law. They just said we’re not allowing these to get registered in a state that prohibits them.

Evan Nappen 35:55

However, they did allow individuals to register them under the federal law and keep them, for example, in Pennsylvania, if they had a vacation home there. So, being it’s a federal law and being that I am aware of them doing this in the past with destructive device registrations required on Street Sweepers and Stryker 12s, it would seem that you should be able to do that if you clear that with ATF on doing it and you’re storing it in a state where it’s legal. If you’re complying with that NFA registration in that regard, then I don’t see why ATF would be opposing that, if they are consistent as they were in the past. But maybe that’s asking too much for ATF, you know, to be consistent. But there you go.

Evan Nappen 36:44

Hey, I have one more letter here, And this is from George. George says, I have your book. He means New Jersey gun law, of course, and I’ve been a member of Texas U.S. Law Shield for years. I’ve been to a few of your events and sent many friends and family your way for your book and U.S. Law Shield. Anyway, I’ve listened to a bunch of your more recent podcasts back to back while working every day. Well, thank you, George. I hope I’m illuminating some things for you. He said at the end of 120, that’d Page – 9 – of 9

be Episode 120, it prompted me to reach out. I applied for my PTC back in October, and it was sent to Gloucester County judge who dragged their feet. Anyway, I finally just received it. Supposedly the judge had to still take care of the ones that were sent to them. These PTC permits that we received have “See Below” check on the “Restrictions”. So, this restriction block is checked and says “Pursuant to NJS 2C:58-4”. Is this okay? I assume that the statute laws that will hopefully be amended or maybe means challenged in the court, that everyone is held regardless what permit you have say or doesn’t say so basically, it’s the same as unrestricted or no? Previously, the county was issuing permits that said “see court order”, which accompanied a court order that limited you to the pistols that you had qualified with. My permit did accompany a court order letter that references a specific pistol name and serial number that I qualified with and applied with per requirement from them in October. But the actual permit does not say anything about the court order. Maybe the accompanying court order letter was a leftover from the previous ones that were handling it. This had hundreds of fellow GC residents confused and I figured I’d ask you. I can gladly send you photos if needed.

Evan Nappen 38:38

Okay, so here’s the deal. Because you applied in October, you were pre-December, and because you were pre-December, pre-passage of the anti-Civil Rights bill, you still have a judge issued permit unfortunately. The judge issued permit means that it originates out of the court, and they have issued a court order. So, you’re bound, unfortunately, by the court order. Now, if the court order requires and references certain pistol names and ones you qualified with, you had better stick to what the court order says because that creates an obligation to you, between you and the court, as all court orders do. Now the “Pursuant to NJS 2C:58-4” is simply the carry permit law. Interestingly and in contradiction to this, the 2C:58-4 first paragraph, as we discussed earlier, says one handgun permit is good for all your hand guns. But you know what? If you’re dealing with a judge issued permit, you better play it safe, and you better stick to the gun that you certified with that is listed on the court order, because this order has judicial weight behind it. It’s actually done by the court, not just done by an executive, that being a chief or the superintendent. As a court order, it needs to be viewed with and dealt with in that manner. You don’t want to be in contempt of a court order. You don’t want your license to be somehow later declared invalid because you were carrying a gun that wasn’t on the court order. Even though, of course, we’re going to argue that the permit contradicts it because it says 58-4 which says you can have any gun, but you don’t need to be the test case. I don’t think you want that. So, for now, play it safe. When you do your renewal, you’ll have a chief issued permit that will have no restrictions and won’t have the demeanor of it being a court order or judicial. It’ll simply be an executive branch issued license or permit, and then it strictly goes by the statute. That’s the way to play it on that. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 41:06

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E127_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 126-Permit Denied! But You Can Keep Your GunsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 126SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, firearms, gun, second amendment rights, denied, gun rights, guns, firearm, laws, lawyer, state, judge, possess, gun laws, carry permit, forfeiture, case, fighting, expungement, mu

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Louis Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:16

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So guess what, we have a new sponsor at Gun Lawyer. That’s right. In addition to the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, I’m also proud to introduce WeShoot, WeShoot, which is a fantastic shooting range in Lakewood, New Jersey. (www.weshootusa.com) They have twelve 25-yard indoor ranges. They also have training and can get you all set to get your carry permit in New Jersey. It is a really great fun range, and I’m really psyched to have WeShoot on Gun Lawyer.

Evan Nappen 01:06

We have some exciting news, though, to talk about. Very exciting, and that is the new case that just came down. I’m proud to say my firm brought and won, and the case was an Appellate (Division) case that was argued by my brother, Louis Nappen, who is here today. Say, Lou, how you doing, man?

Louis Nappen 01:38

Howdy, Ev.

Evan Nappen 01:39

All right. I’m just getting a “howdy”? Come on. Give me something more than a howdy. Aren’t you happy to be on Gun Lawyer and talking about this great case?

Louis Nappen 01:50

It’s an interesting case. It’s quite amazing what New Jersey does and how this decision came down. It was a long hard fight, and we’re going higher because it’s a mixed bag of amazing things that only in New Jersey could these.

Evan Nappen 02:08

Yes, it definitely qualifies as the “only in New Jersey” line. Now, this case went at a number of issues. But essentially, what were the facts, if you will, of MU. Just briefly. The name of the case by the way, tell us about the name of the case. We’re calling it MU.

Louis Nappen 02:34 Page – 2 – of 11

Okay, yeah, we went over this once before, and this is a follow up to that. This particular program is the name of the cases “In the matter of the Appeal of the Denial of MU’s application for a Handgun Purchase Permit and in the matter of the Revocation of MU’s Firearm Purchaser Identification Card and Compelling the Sale of His Firearms”.

Evan Nappen 02:58

Now you know why we just call it MU. Yeah, because that’s ridiculous. But not just because of how it expanded. It’s right on the full escalation of an attack on our client’s rights by the State. Okay, take and stop the permits, and to take the guns and to forfeit the guns, and to just absolutely disenfranchise our client of his Second Amendment rights and his ability to have firearms.

Louis Nappen 03:35

I’ll give you the history briefly.

Evan Nappen 03:37

Yeah. What was the basis that the State had? Go ahead.

Louis Nappen 03:39

Okay. It starts off. First off, this is a gentleman who already had a Firearm Purchaser Identification Card that was granted, and he already owned firearms. So, he applied for a Permits to Purchase Handguns or additional handguns. And at that hearing, so he. Well, I’m sorry, he was denied by his local police chief on that application a couple of years later.

Evan Nappen 04:07

And this is after he owned guns and had his permit. Well, did anything new happen in between?

Louis Nappen 04:14

Nothing, nothing.

Evan Nappen 04:16

Nothing new?

Louis Nappen 04:17

No.

Evan Nappen 04:17

So, he had been granted his permits, and there was nothing new that happened. Yet he gets denied trying to get some more purchase permits?

Louis Nappen 04:26

Correct, and he appealed that denial. This is up in Bergen County, New Jersey. So, the moment he appeals the denial of the application, the State then moves, the Bergen County Prosecutor’s Office, which is very typical of them and what they do for the last 5-10 years at least, is to not only open up any expungement that he might have, to see what might be in his past, and a Motion to Revoke his Page – 3 – of 11

Firearms Purchaser ID Card, which he possessed already and a Motion to Compel the Sale of Firearms that he already possessed as well. So that’s how much they go back, if you try to appeal your denial of additional firearm permits.

Evan Nappen 05:27

This was in Bergen County, and the judge in that county, who’s the judge?

Louis Nappen 05:32

That was Judge (Christopher R.) Kazlau, and we have a number of appeals of his cases. This is typical happening in that. I mean, it has happened, typically in terms of it’s happened, certainly, to several individuals that I know of. We even have pending where they motion to take firearms at permit appeal hearings, purchase permit appeal hearings, not at forfeiture motions. This is not a forfeiture hearing. This is a permit appeal hearing.

Evan Nappen 06:03

So, what was the challenge here?

Louis Nappen 06:06

Well, they allege that he’s a danger to the Public Health, Safety, Welfare. That’s the subsection because he had and has continues to have, no disqualifiers that are objective in that sense. He has no per se disqualifiers. No criminal record that bars him. Never had any restraining orders. No drug or alcohol issues. Nothing along those lines that you would think.

Evan Nappen 06:36

So, the entire basis for denial is simply based on a subjective opinion of the judge. Purely subjective. Yeah, that can be different from one judge to another without any structure or demands on how that determination gets made. Right?

Louis Nappen 06:59

That’s correct. As you say, the what did the judge eat for breakfast standard, you know, whether they’re in a bad mood or a good mood. It’s purely discretionary in that sense. I know certain judges that I’ve been before, who would not accept this standard to say that this person should be denied. So, it’s a shame, but that. By the way, the statute has since been amended, post-Bruen Decision to read now to “any person where the issuance would not be in the interest of public health, safety, welfare, because the person is found to be lacking the essential character of temperament necessary to be entrusted with a firearm. That’s the current

Evan Nappen 07:45

Oh, that sure makes it a lot clearer and not subjective. That “character temperament” thing there. Wow.

Louis Nappen 07:52

And oh, and it doesn’t define “character” or “temperament”.

Evan Nappen 07:56 Page – 4 – of 11

Right. There are just more layers of arbitrary nonsense.

Louis Nappen 08:01

Yes. So, what happened is he goes there, I don’t want to get too repetitive about what we’ve done in the past. Now, he’s not the most perfect person in the world. He has had some issues in his youth. But they were dismissed matters that were also expunged. So, not only did he not have a conviction of anything, but they were also expunged matters, that they opened up, looked at the incident and said, based on what you did here, and you’re not regretful enough, if you kind of read the opinion, I advise everyone to read it, because I think it’s fascinating to see what they do here. And it’s out there. (https://www.njcourts.gov/sites/default/files/court-opinions/2023/a2535-20.pdf) It’s a published decision which means it does have influence across New Jersey and can be cited. So, we raise several prongs of attack here. Most interestingly, we’re probably going to be, and we have word now that we will be taking.

Evan Nappen 09:00

So, let me see if I can summarize. We went after the fact that they were attempting, and in fact, forfeited the guns that he already possessed and mandated that he could no longer possess the guns that he already had and had lawfully acquired. We went after the standard of the “all-inclusive weasel clause”, the catch all of public health, safety, welfare, which you can twist and turn to basically deny anybody, depending on how you want to view it in any pejorative manner. Then we also went after the constitutional challenge to the statute itself and this disqualifier by applying a the Bruen test. Is that correct?

Louis Nappen 09:51

In summary, that is it. Those are the main issues that we attacked. I also attacked that they shouldn’t be opening up expungements for this purpose, correct. That would be the. And that he deserves a jury trial if you are going to move for forfeiture.

Evan Nappen 10:03

Ah, right. A jury trial if it is a forfeiture, because we know that there is case law on other types of property where that specifically applies. Right?

Louis Nappen 10:15

Right. So, while the court upheld,

Evan Nappen 10:17

Well, before we get to explaining the result, what I want to do now because then we’re going to get into the good part, what the win was and how outstanding this win is, because it affects so many people. Then we can talk about the other part where we didn’t win, but the fight continues. And we’ll do that when we come back from the break.

Speaker 3 10:48

fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 12:02

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 12:17

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and with us today is my brother, Louis Nappen. Louis is an attorney in the Evan Nappen law firm, and he does fantastic work. He focuses on our appellate work and on licensing matters and does a great job. Before all of us get more into understanding the impact of the MU case, I want to just take a minute here and thank our sponsors, our sponsors plural, which I’m proud to say, number one, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the state official affiliate of the NRA for New Jersey. And it’s your state association, and you need to belong to your state association. The Association is the number one gun rights group in New Jersey fighting for New Jerseyans – number one. They are in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist.

Evan Nappen 13:26

They’re in the courts, litigating as we speak, in the Carry Killer Civil Rights Violation Bill fight. They’re fighting the magazine, standard capacity magazine ban that Murphy signed. They’re fighting the assault firearm ban, and they are at the forefront of the litigation. They also filed an amicus brief in the MU case that we’re discussing now. So, you need to belong to the Association. When you do belong, you get your membership benefits, which include getting email alerts advising you of the most current things going on in Trenton and what’s going on in the litigation. It keeps you up to the moment as to the threats against us in Jersey and then enables you to have a part by making it very easy to let your legislators know how you feel about these proposed infringements on our Second Amendment rights. So, please join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, go to www.anjrpc.org so that you can join. You also get a fantastic newsletter as well. Really the best in the state on gun rights and all the things that you care about and that I care about in this great newsletter that’s put out. It’s just a source and a wealth of information and action to defend your rights.

Evan Nappen 15:00

Let me also tell you about our newest sponsor that I’m very excited about. And that’s WeShoot, WeShoot is a top of the line, super friendly, shooting range in Lakewood, New Jersey, where they have 12 in door lanes for shooting. They have training classes, and you can practice and they have a fantastic team at WeShoot. For those of you looking to get your carry permit in New Jersey, WeShoot Page – 6 – of 11

has absolute excellence in training. They have former State Police instructors that are there. They offer a six hour course, and plus there’s the actual shooting component as well. They have certified many folks. They’ve never had any of their training certificates, none of the folks that trained at WeShoot have ever been denied their carry permit because they did not have sufficient training. So, when you want to get your training, you want to make sure that you’re going to a place where when you apply for your carry permit, they’re not going to question your credentials as to the training component. WeShoot has your back. And it’s really a great place. They’re very convenient for those in Central Jersey, Monmouth County, Ocean County right there in Lakewood. You’ll really love it. We are so proud to have WeShoot on Gun Lawyer. You can check out WeShoot at www.WeShootusa.com That’s www.WeShootusa.com Check it out and pay them a visit. You’ll see what a great resource having WeShoot is to have on your side.

Evan Nappen 17:03

Okay, Lou, I want to now talk about the good stuff. What is the big win? Let’s let everyone know.

Louis Nappen 17:14

So, anytime that you can chip away at anything that New Jersey does, it’s a good day, and in this case, they got nothing they didn’t already have. They already have public health, safety, welfare standard. They already have that, and they’ve already been moving on opening up expungements. But what they have been doing that they can no longer do is “compel the sale”, what we call forfeit. Make you forfeit your firearms that you already possessed at a permit appeal hearing. So, that is no longer a practice that’s permissible in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 17:57

As a matter of fact, you don’t go through with the sale and sell it. They keep your guns. So, while

Louis Nappen 18:06

And you have to do it within, in this particular order, 60 days or else they will be destroyed. This is what it says in the opinion itself. “We reverse the forfeiture and compelled sale of appellant’s firearms and remand for entry of a corrected order. On remand, the court shall conduct further proceedings to determine whether the firearms may be returned from the federally licensed firearms dealer, or whether some other remedy is available. In those proceedings, appellant is free to pursue his claims for deprivation of his property rights under the Second, Fourth, Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments.” (Page 64) That’s already.

Evan Nappen 18:42

The court made it clear that the lower court needs to correct, that’s their language, the order, to make it correct, because it was not correct. And then leaves open the other avenues for redress.

Louis Nappen 18:47

Correct.

Evan Nappen 18:54

And constitutional nature. Page – 7 – of 11

Louis Nappen 19:02

Yep. So, if there’s a lesson here to learn, especially if it’s just merely a permit appeal matter, if the police or state say oh, do you consent to turn over your firearms while we proceed with this hearing? It’s almost just a general rule generally. Never consent. Now if they have a warrant, they are going to do what they’re going to do. You don’t physically stop them in any way. But you’re not going to turn over your rights and just say, oh, yeah, take my firearms.

Evan Nappen 19:32

Right. Let me go into this even deeper because we see this all the time, and it’s very frustrating. You get denied your gun license because you applied for your gun license. If you do not have some per se disqualifier, meaning you’re a convicted felon, you have a domestic violence restraining order, you have a mental health commitment, or something that is per se and disqualifies you, but instead, you’re just denied for this nebulous, this so objective, arbitrary standard of public health, safety, welfare, which is not a per se disqualifier, which is not a disqualifier of what’s called “certain persons not to possess”. That’s not out there on this. If that’s the basis for the denial and you’re not going to challenge that denial, you have no obligation whatsoever to turn in your guns, nor should you.

Evan Nappen 20:24

You should call an attorney right away. They have no authority to take your guns unless there is some forfeiture proceeding in law, where they have some basis to take your guns. Not simply because you’re appealing a license denial that did not contain a per se disqualifier. Do not let them walk all over you. In New Jersey, they think the answer is take your guns and ask questions later. This state just focuses on stealing everyone’s guns that they can get their hands on. I mean, this is just a part of this environment that we’re in, in New Jersey, disenfranchise individuals of their gun rights. Do everything to diminish our Second Amendment rights, take individual’s guns, try to keep them, forfeit them. And make New Jersey a police state. A state where individuals cannot possess firearms, and only the elites, only the elites, can have guns.

Louis Nappen 21:39

So, if the state has a valid reason to move to forfeit your firearms or to search and seize them, they will use that. You don’t have to give them free rein by consent. Okay? So, what was found here in this particular case, the State certainly didn’t have any, and they even admitted in it that they were moving under no statute that allows for the compelled sale of firearms.

Evan Nappen 22:10

New Jersey does have those statutes, but none of them applied here. For example, they could apply for an ERPO, which is an Extreme Risk Protection Order, but they’re going to have to show that there’s some immediate danger. And none of this existed for the criteria for an ERPO, which if it is issued, the first document is a TERPO, which is a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order. Then they are authorized in that to seize guns under the ERPO law. And then you have a hearing to see whether there’ll be a Final Extreme Risk Protection Order granted. And that’s called a FERPO. So, the due process is there to some degree, although it’s not in there upfront. Yet, this is one method. It’s the ERPO. It’s a TERPO, and then the FERPO. By the way, if it’s brought in Bergen County, it’s a Burpo. Page – 8 – of 11

I’m just kidding about that. It’s not a Burpo. But the words are something else. So, there’s also the ability under Duty to Warn, where health professionals are mandated to rat you out immediately to the police if you say anything stupid, even though it was just hyperbole. Like, oh, man, I had such a bad day, I could kill myself.

Louis Nappen 23:32

In fact, let me just mention here, I just worked.

Evan Nappen 23:36

Or you say something like, I’m so mad at that guy, I could kill him. You cannot say those things.

Louis Nappen 23:41

No. Just this morning, I was at the doctor’s office for an annual checkup, and they give you a questionnaire. How are you feeling today? And they go through all that. Are you suicidal and all that stuff? They’re trying to get you into that.

Evan Nappen 23:53

If you say yes to any of that stuff, you better make sure you realize that your gun rights are now in jeopardy and that you don’t have any privacy there between you and your doctor. That’s a joke. That died long ago. They use it to take your guns, and there’s a procedure that you’ll invoke for that. Then there’s also weapon forfeiture for domestic violence allegations, and there’s a procedure for that. If your gun is used criminally, there’s a forfeiture procedure for that. In that procedure, which is called a Chapter 64 Procedure, the court even said, here that wasn’t done. And what else did they rule about Chapter 64 procedures? That was another nice win. Go ahead, Lou, tell us.

Louis Nappen 24:39

That you would be entitled to a jury trial at that point, and I’d rather have and there’s times specifically where you feel you might get a fairer hearing from a citizenry that as a trier of fact rather than a perhaps biased judge.

Evan Nappen 24:56

What? A judge is bias? A judge that is anti-gun. Come on, that doesn’t really exist in Jersey. They’re all completely fair and vigorous supporters of our Second Amendment Right.

Louis Nappen 25:07

Well, this is something your listeners may not recognize in New Jersey. You do not elect your judiciary. They are appointed by Governors. And think about the Governors that we’ve had over the last 20 years who are sitting on the bench. Are they particularly pro-gun? Governors appointing pro-gun judiciary?

Evan Nappen 25:32

God, Lou, it’s almost like there’s an agenda out there or something. It’s weird.

Louis Nappen 25:35 Page – 9 – of 11

Yeah, so, you have to put it out there, and you have to think about those things in terms of what you’re facing. So, now interestingly, since they, as I already mentioned, said they can if they motion to get expungement, they can do that. They were already doing that on mental health expungements which they try to use against you, of course. It makes you question what is the value of expungements, which are supposed to relieve your rights?

Evan Nappen 26:02

Oh, this is really something that they went down that path. Because, you know, the whole expansion of expungements, the ability of New Jersey, which on one hand, I gotta say was actually, as much as Jersey sucks with their laws, this was one of the good laws. They were trying to expand, have expungement. And a large part of that was to address the racial inequities and injustice that have occurred from and through institutionalized racism in our criminal justice system. You can see it in the ratios, the ratios of black to white. They’re five to six times, almost six times, the number of blacks to whites that have criminal convictions, almost a six to one ratio there. And Hispanics, it’s two to one. Now, why is that? It’s because of how the system is designed. And you look at that and see this wide disparity. In order to address this institutionalized racism, this disparity, they allowed and made it easier to get expungements. So, individuals could relieve themselves of the convictions that make them second class citizens and take away their rights. And here, the court says, oh, well, guess what, you can open it up and use the expunged materials to deny Second Amendment rights.

Louis Nappen 27:30

Now, the racism doesn’t stop there. The racism doesn’t stop there in this opinion. Because in order to find public health, safety, welfare constitutional, they had to find under the Bruen standard historical tradition, in our nation’s historical tradition to deny certain types of people or certain people. In that sense, they had to figure that out as to whether a person that doesn’t have a per se disqualifier, but the only law they really cite here at all, is past histories of laws that barred, and this is what’s interesting.

Evan Nappen 28:06

So, wait. They’re relying on old laws to justify the new laws, which is essentially what Bruen requires. And what are the old laws that New Jersey is relying on to justify the new laws? Go ahead. Tell us. What are they?

Louis Nappen 28:21

They said, we’ve traditionally been allowed to discriminate against, for Second Amendment rights, different types of dangerous classes of people. And here’s the dangerous classes of people of the laws they are relying on. Native Americans should be disarmed. African Americans should be disarmed. Catholics, Quakers, Mennonites, and Moravians should be disarmed. And those who don’t take a loyal oath to the Crown or those who defend the Continental Congress. Because you had both sides going on at our nation’s founding. So, the irony is those are the types of people who are dangerous classes and because we could deny those types of people firearms, it’s okay to deny this individual.

Evan Nappen 29:09

They’re pursuing the tradition of racism in gun control to justify further racism in gun control. Page – 10 – of 11

Louis Nappen 29:19

That’s right. This is Dred Scott.

Evan Nappen 29:20

That’s amazing.

Louis Nappen 29:22

This is what Dred Scott. Remember, they were afraid that blacks would have firearms.

Evan Nappen 29:27

So, Lou, because of the Constitutional issue at stake here of rationalizing under Bruen with racist gun laws of the past to say this is fine. Our firm is taking this up to the New Jersey Supreme Court, right?

Louis Nappen 29:44

Yep. We’re going to the next level.

Evan Nappen 29:47

And depending on what happens there, we have no problem with going to the U.S. Supreme Court. I’m sure Judge Thomas would love to see an opinion where there is pure racism in gun laws being used to somehow justify racism in gun laws.

Louis Nappen 30:06

Yes.

Evan Nappen 30:06

And taking away Second Amendment rights.

Louis Nappen 30:11

Speaking of ignoring Justice Thomas, they’re ignoring, they said that I only raised the balancing of the fact that the facial challenge of vagueness and overbreadth. They completely ignored and said it wasn’t worth even consideration of the fact that this is an unconstitutional balancing test. You are not allowed to balance a state interest, and this is interest to public health, safety, welfare. They didn’t even. They just somehow skipped over that challenge.

Evan Nappen 30:42

Oh, yeah. Well, that was convenient. Well, look, we’re, we’re about at the end here. And I just want to summarize. The best part about this win is simply this. If you’re denied your gun license, that doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re denied your ability to possess firearms. And this case stands for, in Jersey, a distinction between being licensed to acquire a firearm and being legal to possess a firearm. The two are not the same. They are not the same. There’s different criteria for being licensed versus being legal to possess. And here, it ends the practice, ends this atrocious practice, of compelling the sale of firearms on mere licensing matters without having a statutory forfeiture law of some sort that they’re relying upon to do it. It simply cannot be a summary execution, if you will, of your Second Amendment rights by a licensing judge. Fair enough. Page – 11 – of 11

Louis Nappen 31:55

Yeah, that’s all right. That’s the takeaway of the win here.

Evan Nappen 32:00

I agree. Well, I just want to say, and this is more true than ever. Gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:18

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E126_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 125-The Latest Anti-gun Puppet ShowAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 125SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, gun, executive order, dealers, guns, gun rights, universal background check, new jersey, law, anti, plan, universal background checks, registration, background checks, called, act, abuse, legislation, litigation, lawyer

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer, our show. We’re proud of our sponsor. Our sponsor is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, which is the state NRA affiliate for New Jersey. The folks on the frontlines here in battleground New Jersey with a full-time paid lobbyist and at the forefront of all the litigation. You need to be a member of ANJRPC.org. Today, I want to talk about the latest anti-gun puppet show. That’s right. This puppet show stars, his fraudulency, the senile sock puppet, who is known as the current occupier of the White House, also known as our national embarrassment, or just plain old Brandon. Now, what the senile sock puppet has done, of course, he has done through his puppet masters, who are Bloomberg and Giffords and the entire anti-gun Kabal whose routines and patter he obeys diligently. What he has done is put out an Executive Order, a new Executive Order.

Evan Nappen 01:45

Now an Executive Order is done by the President. It’s done when you can’t get legislation through, because your agenda is so disfavored by our Republic, and he can’t get it through legislatively. So, you attempt to do it by executive fiat. And that’s exactly what Biden’s done and unabashedly. He admits that this is exactly what he’s doing. I want to read to you what he’s done and explain the significance of the Executive Order and what’s really behind it and to understand it is important because it actually is very revealing of the big picture, if you know what to look for, that the haters of you and me, haters of gun owners, the hate group known as the anti-gun crowd that hate us, hate our rights and just want to destroy anything related to firearms and disarm us and leave us vulnerable. This is their agenda. We’ve seen it. In order to get that agenda in place, they have their sock puppet there doing their bidding. And what was announced, really spells it out.

Evan Nappen 03:13

Let’s take a look at this. First of all, the occupier is crowing about the “Bipartisan Safer Communities Act”. You may recall that was the anti-gun law passed by Democrats with some traitorous Republicans joining into the so-called Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which does nothing for safety of communities at all. It’s just another step of anti-gun tactics, you know, the salami tactic, piece by piece, and we can’t give them an inch. Yet here we see Republicans falling for it, some of them, and this Page – 2 – of 8

passing and now we’re going to reap effect of the Bipartisan Communities Act. Biden is going to take advantage of that right now.

Evan Nappen 04:19

So, as it says right in the news release from the White House. “When celebrating the Act’s passage,” now think about this. He’s celebrating the Act’s passage. What does that tell you about the Act right away if this guy is celebrating its passage? He is again calling on Congress to act. Why? Because it’s never enough. There’s no compromise here. It’s just take, take, take. That’s all they do. They don’t give anything. They just take rights, take rights, take rights. And of course, he’s calling to take more rights. Even though the bipartisan community safety’s law has passed So what? Take, take, take. So, what’s he calling for now? Well, he’s calling for a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. You know, assault weapons, which are really modern sporting arms, modern sporting rifles, high-capacity magazines that we know are just standard capacity magazines, requiring background checks for all gun sales, often called UBC, Universal Background Checks. We’re going to talk more about that in a moment. Requiring safe storage of firearms. We’re going to talk about that, too. Closing the dating violence restraining order loophole and repealing gun manufacturer immunity from liability.

Evan Nappen 05:53

That’s right. These are all the agenda items that he wants Congress to act and to do this, but he can’t get that through, because they’re all outrageous and destructive of the Second Amendment. So, what he’s done is as much as he can do, by way of Executive Order. This is not voted on by Congress. Not voted on by the folks we elected to represent us. Not approved as law. No, it’s done by just a president who wants to push his failed agenda that he can’t get through Congress. And this is what he’s doing now.

Evan Nappen 06:34

The executive order directs number one, the President’s Cabinet to increase the number of background checks by ensuring that all background checks required by law are conducted before firearm purchases, moving the U.S. as close to universal background checks as possible without additional legislation. You see, he’s doing the very thing there. He can’t get Universal Background Check passed. So, he’s going to do it by way of executive fiat. Some of you may say, well, you know, I’m in favor of background checks. I don’t think someone disqualified should get a gun, or you think you’re being reasonable by having that position. But that only shows me that you don’t understand what Universal Background Check is really about.

Evan Nappen 07:29

What it’s really about is complete gun registration. Because if you have Universal Background Check that means every gun transfer goes through a dealer. And if every gun transfer goes through a dealer, then every gun transfer is registered through the dealer, recorded through the acquisition and disposition books. You may have heard, and if not, I’ll tell you now, that those acquisition and disposition books that have come into the hands of the Government, after businesses have closed, or after FFLs lose their license. However, they come in, all of those records, almost 1 billion gun transfer records, folks, have been illegally databased by the Government. That’s right. They have databased those records. They are building the list. And by having Universal Background Checks, you can have a Page – 3 – of 8

real time, current list of everybody who has purchased a gun. So, Universal Background Check is really code for Universal Gun Registration.

Evan Nappen 08:55

Suddenly, they say, well, what’s wrong with registering your guns, because, hey, we register our cars. We register, you know, to get married. We register. Because when it comes to guns, there’s a little pattern that has repeated itself through history, and you can see it when it comes to registration of guns. It starts with Legislation. Then from Legislation comes Registration. And then from Registration comes Confiscation. And I see that firsthand, where there’s registration schemes, and then the guns are confiscated. Then after Confiscation comes the fourth word, and that’s Extermination. If you look at the great Holocausts through history, not just the Holocaust in Germany, but other Holocausts, what preceded them was confiscation of arms of the people that were slaughtered. So, registration is the tool that gets to disarmament and Universal Background Check is simply code word for accomplishing that.

Evan Nappen 10:10

Yet here, they’re looking to do it without additional legislation. Well, how can you do that without additional legislation? Oh, well, he explains that. He’s going to make sure that firearm sellers, this is quoting “that firearm sellers who do not realize that they’re required to run background checks under existing law, or who are willfully violating existing law, become compliant with background check requirements.” Now, think about this. Firearm sellers who do not realize they’re required to run background checks. Well, he didn’t say firearm “dealers”, he said firearm “sellers”. That means various individuals who the Government wants to claim are acting as unlicensed dealers. It’s those people, individuals, who may be hobbyist and collectors that sell some guns here and there or do private transfers.

Evan Nappen 11:17

Ah, they don’t realize that they’re actually, in the opinion of the current occupier of the White House and his incredibly biased Justice Department and given the new definition that was modified in that bipartisan act as to what a firearm dealer is. Well, now you see we have these unlicensed gun dealers. They really aren’t unlicensed dealers, but they’re going to be made out to be. Then what’s the excuse to go after them? Well, if they’re licensed dealers, then they have to do background checks. So, that’s how we’re going to get more of these background checks. You see, that’s the plan. You may say, well, okay, that’ll force more people to become federal firearm dealers. Well, it may, except the other part of his plan that we’re going to get to, is how they want to shut down dealers. So, if you create a system of Universal Background Checks, then every dealer you close down, you can put their guns in a data base. As you shut down dealer after dealer and the only way you can acquire a gun is through a dealer, but there aren’t any more dealers left to sell you a gun. Well, that’s how you shut down guns in America. See, that’s what the plan is. And every piece here fits what I’m telling you, every piece.

Evan Nappen 12:40

Let’s keep looking at this. How are they going to do this? Well, they’re going to, he’s encouraging the Attorney General to move the U.S. as close to Universal Background Checks as possible without additional legislation by clarifying, as appropriate, the statutory definition of who is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms, as updated by the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. So, there you go. Page – 4 – of 8

They’re now going to abuse the new definition, that those Republican suckers and traitors joined in passing, to give the power to the administrative agency, by this Executive Order, encouraging them to clarify, as appropriate, the definition of who’s engaged in business. Well, you can sure see where that’s going. It’s going to be pretty damn broad. And that’s what is going to be used to go after law-abiding citizens on their private transfers under this Universal Background Check lie that is sold to the people.

Evan Nappen 14:03

And it doesn’t end there. Because the Executive Order also says that they’re going to put a plan in to prevent former federally licensed firearm dealers whose licenses have been revoked or surrendered, or surrendered, from continuing to engage in a business of dealing in firearms. So, if you ever had a license that was revoked or you gave up that license, then you’re not going to be allowed to continue to engage in the business. This shuts down folks from engaging in the business even if they want to surrender a license and start a new business somewhere. It doesn’t matter. You see the idea now is continue to put the squeeze on FFLs, continue to broaden the definition of who’s covered by the net of having to be an FFL. And then work into that this Universal Background Check push that eventually they want to have as legislation as well, to end private sales, so that you combine both registration and confiscation and the inability to even purchase new firearms.

Evan Nappen 15:29

This is the groundwork, and this didn’t just come about because one day Biden just wakes up and says, hey, I got this idea. No, this is anti-gun think tank here, folks. This is the scheme implemented, being started, and pushed by the anti-gun think tank that has looked at the big picture and the small picture. This is their plan, and this is their push. You’ve got to recognize this. You’ve got to see it for what it is. When we come back, we’re going to get more in depth on this plan and the other mechanical elements of it to take away our rights.

Speaker 3 16:16

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:28

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:45 Page – 5 – of 8

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I just want to mention to all of you to make sure your membership is current with the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the key fighting force for our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey. I’m proud that they are our sponsor. They are incredibly effective, and they have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. When you belong as a member, you’re going to get the news alerts, email alerts, to be able to take action, be on top of this fight, know what’s going on, and things you can do to help them. It becomes very, very important.

Evan Nappen 18:28

They’re also at the forefront with litigation. Their cases are in front of federal court now challenging the Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights bill by Governor Murphy. Challenging as we speak, the assault firearm ban in New Jersey and large capacity magazine ban. They’re challenging right now the constitutionality and that’s moving forward. They’re fighting and challenging and joining in litigation including my firm’s case right now challenging the so-called public health, safety, and welfare, license denial Gambit that is used to screw gun owners out of their rights in New Jersey. It’s really important, and it’s a fantastic organization. You get one of the finest newsletters on gun rights you can get. Jersey focused and explaining to you the issues that you want to know and understand. Plus, as a range member, they have a gorgeous range, Cherry Ridge, beautiful. You shoot into the side of a mountain. Just a lovely place. So, join your state association as the minimum you can do. Go to www.anjrpc.org. Make sure you belong to the Association to know that you’re doing your part.

Evan Nappen 19:58

Well, looking back still, at this Executive Order and its real implications. To understand the big picture here that’s being forced upon us and what the agenda really is hiding behind this language. They want to also, Biden says, improve awareness and increase appropriate use of extreme risk protection, red flag orders, and safe storage of firearms. Well, Red Flag is basically the no due process gun seizures that take place all the time in New Jersey. No due process. Somebody decides you’re a problem because they say so. You are never in front of a judge up front, and you don’t get to say anything. It’s all done ex parte, without your involvement. Next thing you know, they’re coming in your home, searching through your home, taking your guns, taking your gun rights. Then you get to go to court, finally, to fight it after the damage is done. And it is an abuse that is unbelievable. Yet it’s there, and he wants to continue this abuse. He wants to increase this abuse. He wants to spread this abuse throughout America.

Evan Nappen 21:28

So that on top of Universal Registration, on top of squeezing dealers, and defining other individuals as dealers who never were dealers, is Gun Confiscation. Their vehicle to grabbing the guns now is a red flag, red flag. We see it every day in New Jersey because that’s how it gets abused. And that’s what’s going on. You have to oppose this no due process Red Flag. It is horrific. And, you know, I’ve talked about it on prior shows, just how bad New Jersey is and how New Jersey, according to the occupier in the White House, is the model legislation for the nation. Yes. The no due process Jersey special is the model for America. And what does this increased awareness program consist of? Oh, well, he says right in here. By partnering with law enforcement, health care providers, educators, and other community leaders. So, this way, you get the word out on how everybody can make that call and get other people’s gun seized. Page – 6 – of 8

Evan Nappen 22:45

This is the abuse that we see happen with health care providers in Jersey, the so-called Duty to Warn. We’ve talked about that. You just say something, even a hyperbolic statement, you know, oh, man, that guy got me so mad, I could kill him. Or, you know, man, I was so upset that I could kill myself. Even though you didn’t mean any of it. GAME OVER. Guns confiscated, and you get taken away to for evaluation. Oh, sure. This is the plan. This is reality. This is not speculation. This is case after case after case that my office defends individuals on. It really is happening. And that’s where he’s putting his push.

Evan Nappen 23:28

Also, he puts that we need to address loss or theft of firearms during shipping. Now, who could be against that? Who wants theft of firearms during shipping? I don’t want to see that. Everything they put forward sounds so wonderful and reasonable until you actually know what’s going on. What are they talking about? Oh, well, they said firearms reported as lost or stolen shipments. They’re putting the propaganda out and that’s what he’s directing the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Department of Justice, to work to reduce the loss or theft of firearms during shipment and improve reporting of such. So, how do you reduce it? Well, by putting in extra controls, and tracking and registration and expense of shipping, and you make it incredibly burdensome and expensive and intrusive, to ship the guns. Another weak point to attack in the supply chain of guns. You know this is that Think Tank, going to work.

Evan Nappen 24:45

Don’t miss the next section which is holding the gun industry accountable. “The Executive Order directs the President’s Cabinet to: provide the public and policymakers with more information regarding federally licensed firearm dealers who are violating the law.” Well, who could be in favor of these rogue horrible gun dealers violating the law? Right? Yeah, right. Except what this is actually going to do is, “The President is directing the Attorney General to publicly release, to the fullest extent permissible by law, ATF records from the inspection of firearm dealers cited for violation of federal firearm laws.” Folks, every gun dealer goes through what’s called a Compliance Check at some point or another. In the compliance check, because nobody’s perfect, they find little things here or there, whatever. Then the idea is to have the dealer correct them as you would in any other business when there’s such an audit and then their practices improve.

Evan Nappen 26:04

Well, Biden wants every one of those records of dealer compliance checks, remember, unless the dealer got an absolutely perfect compliance check without any single little thing being a violation, those records go to the public. By the way, how far is that going to go? Is it going to reveal inventories and guns and serial numbers? And what is the real purpose of this? Well, the real purpose of the release of this information is to use it in conjunction with litigation. Litigation. To try to end the firearm industry by using and abusing the tort law system. We’re going to get to that in a minute because that’s part of his Executive Order as well.

Evan Nappen 26:55 Page – 7 – of 8

He also ordered that the Defense Department’s acquisition of firearms, to further firearm and public safety practices. So, the Department of Defense buys a large number of firearms and other weapons to protect and serve our country. The President is directing the Secretary of Defense to develop and implement procedures to further firearm and public safety practices through the acquisition. So, you want a government contract to sell guns? Well, they’re going to put a whole host of requirements that you’re going to have to follow, that aren’t pushed by law, required by law, but instead required by the Department to further attack our gun rights by using the power of the Defense purchase of firearms, to force the companies to screw with our gun rights. That’s the plan behind that.

Evan Nappen 27:50

Then he’s encouraging the independent Federal Trade Commission. Remember, they’re independent, but he’s encouraging them to issue a report on how gun manufacturers market firearms to minors and how such manufacturers market firearms to all civilians, including through the use of military imagery. Why is that? Because that’s their ploy to suing the gun industry. It was used against Remington. It’s their way to get around the Lawful Commerce Protection Act. This is their Gambit. They want to go at it there and get these so-called studies and reports, to bolster what will be litigation to try to litigate the industry out of existence.

Evan Nappen 28:43

Again, this is all their Think Tank stuff from the anti-gun groups that get together and come up with this plan. Then they get their puppet, the senile sock puppet, to put it out there. And that’s what they’re doing. This is what this executive order is laying the groundwork for. When you read it carefully and you understand what is actually going on here, then you see just how evil and just how destructive of our Second Amendment and right to keep and bear arms. The groundwork is being laid here in this plan. This is their blueprint to destroy us even in the wake of the Bruen decision and the court strengthening our Second Amendment rights. This is their end run. This is how they’re looking to do it.

Evan Nappen 29:45

They also are going to push for “additional steps to make our communities safer and support communities impacted by gun violence.” There’s that catch phrase for this. Gun violence versus gun rights. If anything, it should be criminal violence, not just gun violence. Because there’s good gun violence as well as bad gun violence. But when we talk about criminal violence, then it’s only bad violence, and they use this to go after our rights. Yet again, we’ve talked about that in the past.

Evan Nappen 30:26

In addition to all this, there’s a push now, at the end of this Executive Order, which you may find interesting, that says, they want Congress to modernize and make permanent, the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988, which is currently set to expire in December 2023. Well look at that. The Undetectable Firearms Act is going to expire. No way in hell should that be renewed. That is an attempt, the way they want to see it modernized, to stop modern development of modern sporting firearms that utilize lightweight materials in the making of guns. They want to hold it back and stop the industry because with these new materials, you don’t have to use the same resources, natural resources, steel, etc. You can make these firearms more affordable, make them lighter, make them more durable. And again, this is to shut down the industry and its evolution of firearms by keeping it Page – 8 – of 8

from being able to use modern materials and also using it to stop individuals that want to make a homemade firearm using modern materials as well. Again, this is all part of the plan.

Evan Nappen 32:07

So, when you look at this Executive Order, you can see the blueprint for where the fight for our rights is going to come down. I want to make sure my listeners understood just how serious and what the truth is behind these plans. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:37

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E125_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 124-how to poop with a gunAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 124SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, permit, firearm, exemptions, new jersey, case, defendant, carry, state, gun rights, technique, holstered, court, restrictions, carry permit, lawyer, litigation, judge, law, reeves

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:15

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. We are proud to be sponsored by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s the NRA state affiliate in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners should be a member of their state association. Go to anjrpc.org to find out more. I have been thinking about a number of cases that I’ve had and issues that have come up, and now I’m seeing more of this. It has to do with, in a way, so many New Jerseyans finally having the right to carry, but not being completely familiar with the tips and tricks and protocols of things that are involved in carry, that aren’t often covered or addressed.

Evan Nappen 01:20

I want to deal with one of the key issues when it comes to carrying your gun, and that is how do you poop with your gun? This is important. Because if you’re out carrying your gun, and you gotta go, how do you handle that situation while you are carrying your gun? You might say, well, why is this important at all? Is this just being silly? Absolutely not. Because what happens is individuals, I’ve had many of these cases through the years, accidentally leave their gun in the bathroom. If you leave your gun on the back of the toilet or you leave your gun on the toilet paper dispenser and you forget it, guess what, you’re now in a world of well, poop.

Evan Nappen 02:14

And the reason is because the gun ends up being gone from your possession. If you’re fortunate, you can retrieve it. But normally what happens there is it ends up with the police, if an honest person finds it first. And that’s now going to create a problem for you maintaining your license, you might be charged with criminal charges about being reckless, etc. And if somebody who’s unauthorized gets a hold of it and causes a problem, then you can see that it’s going to go bad for you. This is definitely a situation where you have to be extra cautious if you’re carrying your gun, and you have to go to the bathroom.

Evan Nappen 03:09

So, I want to review with you some important techniques and tips about what to do and not do when you’re going to do your business. Number one, and I would emphasize this, the number one thing is keeping your firearm holstered. By keeping it holstered, you are going to have less likelihood of an accidental discharge of dropping your gun, of exposing it, etc. So, keeping it holstered is the general number one rule. Plus, if it’s holstered, you’re less likely to forget it and that immediately maintains an Page – 2 – of 8

advantage by keeping it in the holster. Now I would also suggest that you never put your gun outside of your holster on top of the toilet tank or take it out and put it on the coat hanging ring. Anything like this, in which you may forget it, miss it, and end up leaving your gun.

Evan Nappen 04:42

What do we do, what can we do to help ensure this and do this in a safe way? Well, if you leave your gun in the holster and pull down your pants, well, now that gun is close to the ground, and in theory, could be seen by someone in another stall at an angle. It has been known to have folks grab under the stall and grab somebody’s gun and take off. You can imagine if you’re in that rather vulnerable position, sitting on the toilet, and somebody grabs your gun in the other stall and takes off, you’re going to have a hard time getting your pants up and getting out of that stall and catching that person who just snatched your gun out of the holster. So, we don’t want to unholster it, but you have that potential. You want to be careful of the exposure of the firearm on the floor while you’re in a public bathroom.

Evan Nappen 05:50

One of the techniques you can do there is you can try to get a corner stall, and a corner stall will help at least block one side of vulnerability. If that’s the side, by the way, where your gun is, it’s even better. But that’s one way to limit the exposure. The other tactic or technique is if you’re in any of these facilities these days that have a family restroom. Normally the family restroom has a diaper changing table and as tempted as you might be to put your gun on the diaper table, don’t do that. Again, you may forget it, and now it’s unholstered again. But the advantage of the family restroom is you can lock that room, and it’s only you in the room. Now, your vulnerability to theft of the firearm is limited, and you can maintain your privacy. So that’s something to look to do if you’re carrying.

Evan Nappen 07:00

Now there’s also some physical techniques that can be of great service here. One is, and some folks do this, they don’t pull their pants all the way down. So, if you’re able to do that and still effectively take care of business, as Elvis would say, then you can use that technique. Of course, be careful that the holster doesn’t have the firearm role so that it’s actually pointing upwards. You never want a firearm pointing at you or anybody else. Even if it’s in a holster, you don’t want it pointing. Make sure you don’t have that role happen. So, be careful with the positioning of the gun when you do this. Make sure it doesn’t do that fold over.

Evan Nappen 07:51

I would say that the best technique, best trick, the number one tip for pooping with your gun, is when you pull your pants down, take your underwear on the side where the gun is and pull the underwear up and over the gun, over the butt of the gun, of your holstered gun. Now what that does is number one, it keeps the firearm from rolling and folding and falling on the ground. It stops it from scratching and scraping on the ground. It also secures it so that it is much more difficult for somebody to snatch and grab out of the holster. When the underwear acts as a stretchy cover going over the butt of the gun, that ensures its position and keeps it firmly against your leg and upright. That is actually the preferred technique, if you can believe it, is the old underwear stretch around the gun. So, experiment yourself with that and see how that technique can work for you. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 09:14

But keep in mind about the dangers of leaving your gun in the bathroom and what can happen by unholstering it in a public place. You want to maintain your control at all times over the gun, even when you’re going to the bathroom. You don’t want to end up in a case where they’re moving to revoke your license because you negligently or recklessly left your gun and some other third party got a hold of it. Then, of course, the trouble can be even more than simply a license loss. So, take that responsibility seriously. We’re going to have to keep training ourselves and learning about dealing with these issues as we carry. Here we are, new to carry in New Jersey in a broad sense, and what do we need? What do the gun owners in New Jersey need? Toilet training! Oh my god, but it’s still true. So, make sure you adhere to these warnings. I’ve seen cases where folks don’t, and it is extremely regrettable.

Evan Nappen 10:42

You know, I recently got a letter, and I love sharing the letters that come in to Gun Lawyer. This letter is from Rolf, and he says regarding other firearms with a pistol brace. I’m a New Jersey resident, but I own houses in Florida and Vermont. If I register my Other Firearm with ATF, can I legally store and possess them in either my Florida or Vermont homes where registered SBRs are legal? Frankly, in the past that has been legal. I know that back when they did the federal so-called assault weapon ban and then Secretary Benson, as a kind of a warmup to that, arbitrarily declared Street Sweepers and Striker-12 shot guns to be destructive devices. Then they had a “free”, free destructive device registration period where you could do basically what they’re doing now with the pistol brace firearms as SBRs. It was permitted for individuals, particularly because in New Jersey, possession of a Street Sweeper or Striker-12 had recently become prohibited under the assault firearm ban of New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 12:21

So, if you had one and you had rendered it inoperable, which allowed you to possess it, ATF was still taking a position that they weren’t going to register New Jersey “destructive device” shotguns such as the Street Sweeper and Striker-12, because Jersey had a prohibition on those as revolving cylinder shotguns under the assault firearm law in New Jersey, but they did allow individuals to register them and possess them out of state in homes that they had out of state as long as in the out of state home, it was legal to possess them. Many individuals that I know have registered these shotguns in Pennsylvania, in their Pennsylvania homes, even though they were New Jersey residents, because the SBR (Short Barrel Rifle) registration is a federal registration. Federal law prohibits an individual from registering a National Firearms Act prohibited firearm in a state where you can’t lawfully have it under state law. But you can have it in states where it isn’t prohibited by state law.

Evan Nappen 13:48

New Jersey currently prohibits SBRs. So, ATF is not going to let a New Jersey resident, at least under the law they shouldn’t be letting any New Jersey resident, actually register a pistol brace gun as an SBR. Because if it is then deemed an SBR, New Jersey has no lawful way to possess an SBR. So, this idea of registering it, and storing it out of state should be viable, and you’re going to need to clear that, of course, with ATF as that is what you want to do. And like I said, there’s some precedent for that happening in the past, because it was done with the retroactive destructive device ruling by Secretary Benson on Street Sweepers and Striker-12s. So, that is an idea that’s apparently feasible. Page – 4 – of 8

Evan Nappen 14:52

Now if you can’t do that, you’re going to need to take action over those pistol brace guns as far as the feds are concerned. You have those 120 days, and in New Jersey, the options are limited. We’ve discussed them on other Gun Lawyer episodes. Hopefully the litigation that’s ongoing, which is massive against Biden’s ban, will be successful. I know there’s a number of actions, and one of them involves 25 states joining through their Attorney Generals in opposing Biden’s gun ban. Half of the country opposes Biden’s gun ban in federal court in this action. That just shows you how outrageous it is. So, we’ll see what happens in that litigation. Hopefully, we’ll have good news, and we won’t have to worry about any of these things. But keep your eye on that time deadline to take action so that you don’t get stuck with a problem. When we come back, I have an important case that just a couple of days ago, was decided in New Jersey, and it directly impacts folks with certain permits to carry handguns. I want to discuss this in detail. It is a very interesting case that you need to be aware of. We’ll see in a few.

Speaker 3 16:35

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:49

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 18:04

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I want to thank you all for being great listeners. I really appreciate it. It gives me a chance to get the word out, to be the shadow bans and algorithms and everything else as they try to suppress our speech in America. It’s just amazing that I even have to say such a thing in America, but you know it’s true. This is how I’m able to reach out and provide you with important information protecting our rights. Making this possible and helping to give this voice is our state association, a sponsor of this show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. ANJRPC. Now let me tell you about the state association. They are our lobby group for gun rights. They have a full-time paid lobbyist. But they’re more than that.

Evan Nappen 19:01

They’re the NRA state affiliate. They’re involved in the litigation going on across the board over pistol braces and assault firearms and large capacity magazines all focused on our rights in New Jersey. They have a beautiful range, Cherry Ridge Range, shooting into the side of a mountain. It’s gorgeous Page – 5 – of 8

up there. If you are a member of association and join with the range privileges, it’s just such a beautiful place to shoot. And by being a member, you are going to get the email alerts of action. You’re being advised right away as to progress in the courts and what’s going on in the legislature. You also get one of the finest gun rights newsletters. The Association newsletter is a hardcopy newsletter that is dedicated to what is going on in New Jersey, directly affecting your rights, our rights and what we need to know. So, make sure you join the Association. It’s really important. As a member, that’s where we get power in our unity. You’ll find it there at anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 20:21

We have a case that just came out, just decided on March 6, and it is State (of New Jersey) v. Reeves. This is an Appellate Division case in New Jersey. It’s the appeals court in New Jersey. The case is a published opinion, but it’s not what they call “published” in terms of the legal terminology of published. In other words, you can find it and read it. It’s published in that regard. But it’s not yet “approved for publication”, meaning binding case law. When a case is approved for publication, it means that the case stands as binding law throughout the state. Nonetheless, these cases that are decided are still very important. They are very instructive. They’re what we call unpublished decisions, even though they’re published. I mean, leave it to the law to have such a thing as unpublished published decisions, but that’s what it is. They’re still utilized to address various issues that come up when there’s nothing else that has dealt with the particular issues, and they are used to be very informative and such. When you argue motions and do things in the court and you want to rely upon an unpublished opinion, you can put it into your brief and into your argument. You supply a copy of it to the court.

Evan Nappen 22:02

These are accessible online through the courts in New Jersey, through the Appellate Division. You can pull this State of New Jersey versus Shawn Reeves case. It is Docket No. A-0921-20 if anyone wants to read it, but I want to point out some highlights in this case that show the way the court is interpreting the restrictions on restricted permits. Because we’ve talked about how the Carry Killer anti-Civil Rights bill is just a horror show and disgusting and an attempt by our politicians to be whining and kicking and screaming and not accepting the Bruen decision and doing anything they can to get in the way of our God given Second Amendment rights by putting this monstrosity forward, and then claiming that it’s somehow in our interest. They want to keep you a victim. Make sure you stay a victim of crime and not be able to defend yourself.

Evan Nappen 23:15

But in this horrible, ridiculous law, there are actually a few pieces of gold. One of the best things of all, just the number one best thing about that law, if there is such a thing that you could actually say is good in it, is that judges have been taken out of the picture from being issuing authorities. Judges have always been the bane of our gun rights. Throughout New Jersey’s history, you see how the judges have failed to protect our Second Amendment rights, and in fact, have done the opposite. They’ve ran an aggressive campaign against our gun rights. Under the old law, judges were the issuing authority, but under the new law they no longer are. So, that is the blessing, that is a win right there. As we proceed with our litigation, hopefully, we will cut away with surgical precision, all that bad stuff in this law, which is going quite well now in the litigation. And as we cut away all the rotten, terrible stuff, we Page – 6 – of 8

actually will be left with some useful provisions, not the least of which is getting judges out of the picture.

Evan Nappen 24:33

Now this case further illustrates the problem with judges issuing permits. Prior to Bruen, judges issued restricted permits. Now restricted permits no longer exist because permits, from December (2022) onward, since the new Carry Killer law was passed, are only issued by a Chief, and there’s no authority or ability produce to put restrictions on. In a post-Bruen world, restrictions cannot be willy nilly and such. There are some limited restrictions that are apparently allowed under Bruen, and New Jersey has just gone nuts with identifying 25 ridiculously broad, sensitive places, and trying to restrict them in every way. And that’s playing out in the litigation. But prior, you had judges that would issue restrictions on carry. Currently, you have some judges, particularly Judge Oxley out of Monmouth County right now, that have decided to add restrictions to the permit. We’ve talked about this restriction that imposes the exemptions of NJS 2C:39-6(g) on a carry permit holder, which is, of course, absurd, because that provision is about the transport of firearms while transporting under exemptions of 39-6. But if you have a carry permit, you’re not utilizing exemptions under 39-6. The exemptions under 39-6 are for those that do not have a carry permit.

Evan Nappen 26:22

But it doesn’t matter, because the judge has tied the 39-6(g) requirements of the exemptions to that permit and restricted it. What it does is it essentially guts the value of the permit by requiring that when you transport your gun that it’s unloaded and either in a case, or in a closed and fastened case, or in a securely tied wrapper, or locked in the trunk of your vehicle, or in a gun box. But it’s unloaded and secured in that manner. Well, when you have a carry permit, that’s not how it’s supposed to be. Yet by putting that on the back of the permit, it now creates this conundrum. Do I carry by way my permit? Or am I restricted by the back of the permit? Do I have to carry by 39-(g) or can I carry by way of the permit that was supposed to exempt me from exemptions? Am I bound by what the judge said and wrote on the permit and its restriction? Or am I free to carry pursuant to the permit and essentially what Bruen laid out?

Evan Nappen 27:41

The court, the Appellate Court, in New Jersey and the Reeves case said as follows. First, it says here, and I’ll just read you for a little bit from the case, “Defendant Shawn Reeves appeals from his jury trial conviction for unlawful possession of a handgun and impersonating a police officer. He obtained a permit that allowed him to carry a firearm only while he was performing his duties as a private security guard. During a traffic stop, he waved a badge at the officers and stated, ‘I’m an officer just like you.’ Defendant was wearing a loaded firearm in a holster. He was arrested for unlawfully carrying the firearm in public beyond the scope is carry permit.”

Evan Nappen 28:24

Now this impersonating an officer issue is separate, and it’s not what I’m concerned with here. I am concerned with someone who had a carry permit, a carry permit that was allegedly restricted, and the restriction said that he could only have his gun while performing his duties as a private security guard. Now in this trial with these issues here, the court states in the opinion that in August of 2015 Defendant Page – 7 – of 8

applied for carry permit. The permitting judge construed the defendant’s request as an application for permission to carry a handgun while in the employment of Visual Protection Services, while serving as an armed security guard and assigned to the City of Newark. The permit defendant received was limited to those circumstances. So, here’s the limited restricted carry that was issued prior to Bruen.

Evan Nappen 29:41

Of course, now you have a trial, and the defendant was charged accordingly. Here’s the part that I want you to pay particular attention to. In this trial, the judge gave the jury, as a jury instruction, the exemptions of NJS 2C:39-6(g). Oh, sound familiar, folks? That’s right, the very exemption that’s on the Oxley carry permit out of Monmouth County, the same one, 39-6(g). Listen to what it says here. This exemption was not requested at all by the defendant. I’ll read to you directly from the case. Defendant also contends that the judge erred, that the judge made a mistake, in instructing the jury regarding the legal requirements for transporting a firearm pursuant to NJS 2C:39-6. Before trial, defendant argued that the court should not charge the jury on exemptions set forth in 39-6. Specifically, defendant argued to the trial court, and this is the court opinion quoting what was said in the trial. The court has already indicated that the court believes that the requirements of NJS 2C:39-6(g) are applicable to the case. Judge, I have yet and the State, in its brief, did not cite to any authority or any indication, any legal indication, that 2C:39-6(g) applies to defendant. As we stated in our brief, Judge, the title of 2C:39-6 is exemptions. It deals specifically — the entire statute deals with persons that are exempt from the requirement to obtain a permit. Defendant was not such person, that’s why he got a permit to carry. He is not an exempt person. That entire statute, the entirety of 39-6 applies to persons that are exempt and it talks about how they become exempt, how they stay exempt and what they have to do while they are exempt. Defendant is not an exempt person and none of that statute applies to him.

Evan Nappen 32:11

That was defense counsel for Reeves arguing to the court not to give the jury the exemptions of 39-6(g) because they did not apply here. This is a carry permit case, not an exemption for possession case. He had the permit. And guess what? The court gave the exemptions. The court said nope, too bad. We’re going to make sure the jury has the exemptions as well. And guess what? The Appellate Court upholds it in Reeves, and says yes, they can consider it as the exemptions.

Evan Nappen 32:54

So, folks, think about what this case means. Think about this case and what it means in terms of any of you that have an Oxley permit, that puts 39-6(g) as a judge ordered restriction on your permit. It then becomes something, arguably, that has to be considered by the jury as to whether you were in conformance with it or not. That’s right. You can read this opinion for yourself. It bodes very poorly. So, if you have such a permit, you need to take action to either get that requirement struck or to surrender your permit, and reapply and get a chief issued permit without that nonsense on it. Or wait until your permit expires, and then apply for a new permit from your chief or Superintendent. But that restriction is a problem, and the Reeves case indicates that it’s even more of a problem. So, beware, folks, beware. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Page – 8 – of 8

Speaker 3 34:33

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E124_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

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Episode 123-How to Lose your Gun RightsAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 123SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, gun rights, person, new jersey, gun, fight, rights, expungement, state, prohibited, association, assault weapons, felony, disabilities, deny, domestic violence, lawyer, joni mitchell, discover, guns

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I have some interesting things for you, a couple news bits here. Before I get to them, I want to thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, the number one defender of gun rights in New Jersey, and the official NRA affiliate. They are the folks with their feet on the ground in Trenton with full-time paid lobbyists, and they are litigating these major cases that are going to have direct impact, already have, on our gun rights.

Evan Nappen 00:55

So, I was looking at this, and I saw this headline, but actually, it’s even funnier. When you read deeper as to what it is, you know, Biden, just recently gave an address to the House Democratic Caucus in Baltimore, Maryland. And it seems that he was snubbed by more than a dozen Democrat lawmakers. Instead of hearing the President give a speech, they decided to go to a Joni Mitchell concert instead. Now I say that’s a wise choice actually for them. They were joined by a number of Republicans including the Speaker of the House and Susan Collins of Maine, etc. So, all these legislators decided they’re not going to listen to his fraudulency, the senile sock puppet, and see what he has to say. No, instead, they said, Joni Mitchell is the place to be. But what I really love, and this is a part they don’t emphasize here, is what President Brandon said at his speech to the Caucus. Do you know what he said there? Guess what, folks? Guess what his whole theme, his whole push at this hearing was? Well, it’s to ban assault firearms, of course. Of course. Biden said he’s going to ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines come hell or high water. That’s what he’s going to do. And guess what? Nobody wants to hear it. Not even the Democrats want to hear it. Nobody wants to hear him. They’d rather go to a Joni Mitchell concert, and I don’t blame them because I’d rather do that too. He’s just bloviating continuously over this garbage called assault firearms. The assault weapons which are made up because they’re just an-anti gun ploy. We don’t even use the term assault weapons if anything. All these guns are our modern sporting rifles. That’s what they are. Modern sporting rifles.

Evan Nappen 03:31

Because true assault weapons, Sturmgewehrs, as the Germans of the Third Reich created and called them, were fully automatic and semi-automatic. They were select fire. None of the firearms that Biden is talking about banning are select fire. No, in fact, they’re just semi-autos, in which this idea when it was put out from the beginning by Josh Sugarman in the book, his manifesto, Assault Weapons and Accessories (in America) (1988). He even said the general public will be fooled by this. We can trick Page – 2 – of 8

them. He admitted it. Because they won’t know the difference between fully automatic and semi-automatic, and he was right. The media and the politicians go along, and Biden is still harping on this same old saw, but luckily even less people are listening to him.

Evan Nappen 04:30

Now another thing here that is important for every gun owner to know is that Discover card, the credit card, Discover is now the first credit card to have gun store tracking. That’s right. They will track your gun purchases when you use Discover Card. In an article by Larry Keane of National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF), which is also a gun rights group and important group. They focus on manufacturing and dealers and such. Very important to our rights. In his article from February 23, 2023, it says that “Discover Financial Services announced it will begin using the new controversial codes in April. Reuters reported that Discover will become the first credit card company to use the specific code for purchases at a firearm retailer.” https://www.nssf.org/articles/discover-becomes-first-gun-store-tracking-credit-card/ So beware. If you have a Discover Card, I would get rid of it. They’re obviously part of the anti-gun, and they, of course, are putting it out like it’s to track illegal sales. Yeah, right. Like that has anything to do with credit card purchases. It’s just nonsense. I would highly recommend not using your Discover Card in any way, particularly regarding firearms. And for that matter, you should think about just getting rid of it. Because as these companies go woke, which is really what this is, and they just go extreme left in their propaganda and trying to impose gun control schemes on us through the private sector, we cannot tolerate that. Our response, luckily, in the private sector, is we don’t have to use them. So, this is something to consider. If you’re in the market to buy anything at a sporting goods store, think twice about using your Discover Card.

Evan Nappen 07:09

Well, what I want to talk about today is very important. I want to review the disqualifying disabilities to getting a gun license. In other words, I want you to know how to lose your gun rights in New Jersey. Because if you know how you can lose your gun rights, how you can become a person who is ineligible to have a Firearms ID Card, a pistol purchase permit or a carry license a so-called Permit to Carry a Handgun. They all rely on the same criteria. The criteria are in NJS 2C:58-3c. and that’s where the, what are called the disabilities, are for having guns. If you fall into any of these, you lose your gun rights. You cannot have an ID card, pistol purchase permit or permit to carry a handgun. They all rely on this. If you’re not familiar with what the prohibitors are, you might inadvertently end up being trapped by one of these or more, simply out of ignorance because some of these things you may not realize are firearm disqualifiers in New Jersey. And so, knowledge is key.

Evan Nappen 08:38

So, let’s talk about what they are. And let me tell you, under the Carry Killer bill, the anti-Civil Rights bill that Murphy passed, he made changes to the disqualifiers and added a number of disqualifiers and other conditions that you need to be aware of as well. Listen to the first disqualifier and look at what the changes are. A person shall not be denied a permit, shall not be denied a permit. How about a person who shall be granted? But no, got to put the negative. Unless a person is known in the community in which the person lives as someone who is engaged in acts or made statements suggesting that the person is likely to engage in conduct other than justified self-defense that would pose a danger to self or others. What the hell does that even mean? Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 09:42

Well, I’ll tell you what they’re going out with that, folks. They are going at your social media. They want to see and look at what you’ve posted, what you’ve tweeted. All those kinds of things and see if there’s anything in acts or statements. Statements are freedom of speech, right? Oh, we’re going to use that against you see here. Statements that suggest, the statements don’t actually have to say it. They just have to suggest it. What the hell does that mean? Suggest it. Whatever the judge decides it is going to mean. Right? Suggest that you’re likely to engage in conduct that would pose a danger to yourself or others. And what is that danger? Is a danger, a serious danger? Or is it just a minor danger? Is it a potential danger? What? They don’t say. So, here’s this broad disqualifier out there to try to focus on anything where you’ve engaged in acts or made statements, where there’s a suggestion based on these things, that you might pose a danger to yourself or others.

Evan Nappen 11:06

So, think about that, folks. You better be careful. Granted, it is something that chokes off free speech. If you care about your Second Amendment rights, it seems that you need to limit your First Amendment rights. I understand. We love all our rights, but New Jersey will attempt to use that against you. Use it to stop you from having a firearm. Now, this is being challenged. This broad, vague, garbage of a disqualifier. But until it gets knocked out as unconstitutional, you need to be aware of it, so you don’t fall into its trap.

Evan Nappen 11:45

Now, the next disqualifier says to any person who’s been convicted of any crime in this state, or its felony counterpart in any other state or federal jurisdiction, or any disorderly persons offense in the state, involving an act of domestic violence. So, if you’ve been convicted of a felony, or in New Jersey, they’re called crimes. Or if you had a disorderly person, which is often thought of as a misdemeanor, for domestic violence. So, conviction of felony anywhere in the U.S., you’re prohibited. Conviction of disorderly person for domestic violence, you’re prohibited, and that also mirrors the federal prohibition of a domestic violence, misdemeanor crime, which is also a prohibitor.

Evan Nappen 12:38

Next, any person who is presently confined for a mental disorder as a voluntary admission or who is presently involuntary committed to inpatient or outpatient treatment. So, if you are in a mental health facility, you can’t have a gun. Big surprise. Be aware that if you’re being held in a mental facility, and you apply to get a gun, you will be denied. Okay? There’s a really tricky one there. All right. Now, this is where they get into more Jersey special. Any person who suffers from a physical defect or disease which would make it unsafe for that person to handle firearms, to any person with a substance abuse disorder involving drugs, or to any alcoholic unless any of the foregoing persons produces a certificate of a medical doctor, treatment provider, or psychiatrist licensed in New Jersey, or other satisfactory proof, that the person is no longer suffering from that particular disability in a manner that would interfere with or handicap that person in the handling of firearms.

Evan Nappen 13:58 Page – 4 – of 8

So, the bottom line here is if you have a physical defect or disease that would make it unsafe for you to handle firearms, or if you have a substance abuse problem, including alcohol or drugs, then the way to overcome these things is with medical proofs, that you’re no longer suffering from them in a way that makes you essentially a danger in the handling of firearms. So, that is a state disqualifier. Something that’s not found in the federal law. You can see how broad and vague it is so they can get into all kinds of things about you. It’s used again to deny and create the system in New Jersey that becomes treacherous for folks honestly.

Evan Nappen 14:52

Next is any person who knowingly falsifies any information on the application form for a handgun purchase primitive or firearms ID card. So, falsification, which means if you do not give the right answer on the form that itself is a basis to deny, even if the answer that you gave, if it had been correct, wouldn’t necessarily mean you were disqualified. For example, on the form it asks, have you ever been convicted of a disorderly persons offense, any type of offense. They just want to know anything you’ve been convicted of, even though that wouldn’t necessarily bar you, if it wasn’t domestic violence. But if you say no, and you actually had such conviction, now they can say you falsified and then deny your license. And then not only can they deny you, but falsification itself is a crime, a felony level offense, which you can also be criminally prosecuted for. So, it can be very treacherous.

Evan Nappen 15:53

You have to make sure that you answer these questions correctly. Because your failure to answer the questions correctly can not only lead to your gun rights being denied, but you are facing criminal prosecution. And we see that all the time. So be aware of this. We’ve been seeing some agencies that don’t even bother to deny the person when they put the wrong answer. They just immediately criminally charge the person. They don’t even deny the license. Just please come, you’re arrested, and you’re charged for putting the wrong answer. They let the courts sort it out later. So, be very much aware of false information. You don’t want to have any problems. If you have questions about how to answer something, talk to an attorney that understands these firearm applications and questions so that you can be confident in giving the right answer. When we come back, I’m going to continue explaining how to lose your gun rights in New Jersey.

Speaker 3 16:59

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer. Page – 5 – of 8

Speaker 3 18:13

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 18:28

Hey, welcome back, folks, Evan Nappen here. You’re listening to Gun Lawyer, a podcast that is free for you to listen to, free for you to decide to subscribe to. So you can get top gun information, gun rights information, etc. To protect yourself and your rights. And also in that same vein, I want to thank our sponsor, who is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org. You need to belong to the Association. You’ve heard me tell you this, but it’s no joke. And it’s not just because they’re a sponsor. I’ve been an active participant in the Association for decades, decades, folks, because that is a key group in New Jersey to defending your rights. I know there’s other groups as well. I’m not saying anything to put them down. I’m just saying no matter what, you better belong to your State Association. That is mandatory if you believe in your gun rights and protecting them and fighting for them in the toughest battleground state in America, which is New Jersey. You see the State Association has full-time paid lobbyists in Trenton standing guard and letting us know right away about the developments so we can fight and alert members.

Evan Nappen 20:04

They are at the forefront of the litigation, challenging the Carry Killer, anti-Civil Rights bill with an enormous, fantastic comprehensive lawsuit brought by my friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter. Great attorney. They’re fighting right now on the assault firearm ban which got consolidated with the magazine ban in federal court. And remember, the magazine ban all went up to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court GVR (Grant, Vacate, Remand). That’s the Association’s case. They sent it back to the lower court to rule in accordance with Bruen. That is a fantastic development, folks. So, we’re looking really, I’m really cautiously optimistic on the litigation. Plus, the State Association is backing our case where we are challenging the very things we’re talking about today. We’re challenging the public health, safety, and welfare disqualifier, which we’re going to get to in a minute. It is unconstitutional, vague and overbroad, and the Association joined it with an amicus brief in that important case. When you join the Association, you’re going to get a number of benefits. Not only knowing that you’re defending gun rights, but you’re going to get email alerts, the instant alerts as to what’s going on. On top of that, you’re going to get a fantastic newsletter. The best gun rights newsletter printed in the state. So, this is something that you will get a lot out of, and you’ll be on top of what is going on, and on the frontlines of the fight. So, please join ANJRPC. Go to www.anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 22:02

Let’s continue looking at the disqualifiers here. These are the things that you can lose your gun rights over. There is an age restriction in New Jersey. You have to be 18 for a Firearm Purchaser ID Card, and you have to be 21 for a Permit to Purchase a Handgun. So, beware of the age limitations. The next disqualifier says any person where the issuance would not be in the interest of public health, safety or welfare because the person is found to be lacking in the essential character of temperament necessary to be entrusted with a firearm. There’s a whole other line of BS right there. You can see how vague and broad and ridiculous such a disqualifier is because, who’s to say what is not in the interest of public health, safety or welfare, even mean? And yet they say, because you’re found to be lacking the Page – 6 – of 8

essential character of temperament. What is the essential character of temperament. Please define that. Necessary to be entrusted with a firearm. Entrusted? It’s our right. It’s our right. I don’t get entrusted with my rights. They’re my rights. They’re your rights. It’s not about being entrusted. That’s nonsense. These are the rights, and to say, you’re disqualified from your right because you don’t have the essential character of temperament. Whatever the hell that means. And it’s not in the interest of public health, safety or welfare. Really? Again, undefined, subjective, crapola. Yet, there it is, and that’s why we’re fighting it. Association is fighting it. We’re trying to get rid of this stuff that is there so that you can subjectively be disenfranchised of your God given Second Amendment rights, fundamental rights to be armed. It’s outrageous. And yet another example of how far New Jersey will go in trying to destroy a constitutional right.

Evan Nappen 24:49

Next, any person who is subject to a temporary or final restraining order under domestic violence. That is correct. That’s also a federal disqualifier, having a domestic violence restraining order. Any person who as a juvenile was adjudicated delinquent for an offense which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a crime. So, New Jersey even looks at juvenile records, juvenile convictions. If you’ve had a juvenile conviction and that juvenile matter would have been, if charged as an adult, a crime, meaning felony level offensive of the adult world, then that counts as a disqualifier for you.

Evan Nappen 25:41

Now, if you have a juvenile record or if you have an adult criminal record, there are ways to restore your rights and my firm does a lot of that. It’s called expungement. We can expunge your criminal record, juvenile and adult, assuming you’re eligible. And with an expungement, your record is cleared. You’re given a clean slate, and it’s deemed as a matter of law not to have occurred. It is no longer a per se disqualifier under these disabilities. So, it’s a way to get your rights restored. If you have a Final Restraining Order that has been upon you, creating a bar under both federal and state law, then, in New Jersey, there’s a way to get rid of restraining orders by bringing a certain type of action in court, to get rid of a restraining order and get rid of the disqualifier that a restraining order places upon you. If you’ve had a mental health commitment, we’re going to get to, there is a mental health expungement that you can use to restore your rights. We do all this type of work in our firm, and we call it rights restoration. So, if you have a problem, if any of these disqualifiers that we’re talking about apply to you or a loved one, give me a call or another attorney that knows gun law call them. We can talk about how to restore your rights. It’s not necessarily the end of your gun rights. There may be a way of salvaging them, of restoring them, of saving them.

Evan Nappen 27:22

Here’s an interesting disqualifier, and it’s something important to know. Because they keep it secret until they want to use it against you, and I’m not kidding about that. And that’s the following, any person whose firearm is seized pursuant to the “Prevention of Domestic Violence Act” and whose firearm has not been returned. That’s right, if you’ve had a gun seized pursuant to domestic violence, because it was a restraining order. Even if the restraining order wasn’t against you. You are an innocent third party and your gun got seized and that gun has not been returned to you. You’re a prohibited person. This is why if you have guns seized, you must fight to get your guns returned. If those guns are not returned, you’ve just been disenfranchised of your Second Amendment rights. You’ve just lost your gun rights. Page – 7 – of 8

Evan Nappen 28:15

Because you were a sucker and allowed those guns to be sold. You were a sucker and agreed not to have them returned to you. They don’t tell you about the disability that I just told you about. They don’t warn you and say, oh, if you agree to have your gun sold or you agree to have it go to a third party or you agree to let the state keep them, then you become a disqualified person prohibited from firearms. No, they don’t tell you that little fact. But I do. And I want you to know it. So, remember to fight for your rights and never give in on a forfeiture. You need to fight it legally and get your property back. Because if you don’t, there’s a price bigger to pay than the mere property that they’re keeping. It costs you your rights.

Evan Nappen 29:13

Any person named on the consolidated Terrorist Watchlist maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center administered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. So, if you’re on the terrorist watchlist, you’re prohibited from firearms. Now, do you know how you get on the terrorist watchlist? Do you know how you get on that? I have no fricking clue how you get on that. Nobody does. They don’t tell you. That’s part of the problem, but if you get on it, you’ve lost your gun rights. How nice. What a ridiculous disqualifier that is, and there’s no due process. It’s really crazy. But there it is.

Evan Nappen 29:57

Any person subject to an ERPO, which is an Extreme Risk Protection Order, often called a Red Flag, although it’s not an official name. A red flag starts out as a TERPO, that’s a Temporary Extreme Risk Protection Order. Then you have a hearing, and it becomes a FERPO, which is a Final Extreme Risk Protection Order. If you’re subjected to any type of ERPO, whether it’s a TERPO or a FERPO, you are a prohibited person for guns. So, you need to fight any of these red flag actions. If you’re ever served with a TERPO, this has to be battled in the hearing. Otherwise, you will be given a FERPO. Then that final order not only takes away your guns and takes away your gun rights, but also, think about this, it puts you in a database. Because these FERPOs are database in which your name is on a list where you are declared an extreme risk. Do you really think being on a list, labeling you as an extreme risk is a good idea, even putting aside guns? That’s what happens. Battle it out fight. Demand your due process.

Evan Nappen 31:28

Any person who is subject to or has violated a court order that prohibits custody, control, ownership, purchase, possession, or receipt of a firearm or ammunition issued pursuant to a Temporary Protection Order. So, if you have an order and you violate it, then the violation of it. If you’re subject to or violated that becomes a disqualifier. Be aware of that. Any person who is subject to or has violated a temporary or final restraining order pursuant to the “Sexual Assault Survivor Protection Act 2015”. If there’s a rape protection order against you, you’re prohibited from guns.

Evan Nappen 32:07

To any person who has previously been voluntarily admitted to inpatient treatment or involuntarily committed to inpatient or outpatient treatment unless the court has expunge the person’s records. We’ve talked about this. This was an important change. Because now whether you’ve been voluntarily Page – 8 – of 8

admitted to inpatient or involuntarily admitted to inpatient or outpatient, the only way for you to get your rights back is by way of getting a Mental Health Expungement. And until such time, you are a prohibited person. Beware of that. You need to clean that up and get a mental health expungement so that you’re not disenfranchised of your gun rights.

Evan Nappen 33:01

Any person who is subject to an outstanding arrest warrant for a felony. So, if you have an arrest warrant out for you, for a felony, you’re prohibited from getting a gun license. But get a load of this. New Jersey says this does not apply to a person who has a warrant out for them for a felony for providing receiving assisting or providing or receiving or providing material support for or traveling to obtain reproductive health care services that are permitted in New Jersey. So, if you went and illegally got an abortion in another state or illegally provided an abortion, if you’re breaking abortion laws, and have an arrest warrant for a felony, New Jersey wants you to know that you’re okay to get a gun. If you’re providing anything for taking out fetuses, no problem says New Jersey. Your felony warrant doesn’t count. They are exempting folks getting, receiving, traveling, providing for abortions. Yep, that’s the exemption.

Evan Nappen 34:34

They also say that if you’re a fugitive from justice, because you’re fleeing a state or federal jurisdiction, to avoid prosecution for a crime other than a crime to avoid giving testimony in a criminal proceeding. Okay. So, if you’re fleeing and you’re a fugitive from justice, you’re prohibited. Except if you’re fleeing because you want to avoid giving testimony in a criminal proceeding, it does not. Also, it does not include being a fugitive from justice, you’re on the run, you guessed it, for providing, receiving, assisting in providing or receiving, and providing material support for traveling to obtain reproductive health services that are permitted in New Jersey. So, if there’s an outstanding warrant for a felony or you’re a fugitive from justice, for seeking, getting, providing or helping to get abortions illegally in other jurisdictions, you’re good for guns in New Jersey. They exempted you for that. But if it’s anybody else, well, you’re now disqualified.

Evan Nappen 35:58

So, as you can see, the disabilities are wide and varied, and are extremely political in nature as well. And that’s the flavor for New Jersey. You need to be aware of these things so that you don’t become disenfranchised of your gun rights, you don’t get suckered into giving them up, losing them, making mistakes that cost you your rights. Best way to do that is with knowledge. That’s what I want to impart to all my wonderful listeners. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 36:49

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E123_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 122-Think Twice Before Being a Plaintiff for the Brady CenterAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 122SUMMARY KEYWORDS

law, new jersey, carry, gun, brady, permit, carry permit, exemptions, gun laws, gun rights, issued, statutes, fight, state, judge, gun owners, lawyer, hollow, case, folks

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:20

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I want to make it clear that I would advise that you never become a plaintiff for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence because of a recent case here, relatively speaking, that I thought was pretty interesting. It really shows just what can happen. This was out of The Colorado Sun newspaper, and it’s an article by Jesse Paul. And what it says is “Colorado law makes it very difficult and financially perilous to sue the gun industry. (That’s likely to change.)” And you better believe that it does. This is a lesson learned that unless you just want to be a pawn of gun control and don’t care about your own finances, I don’t think it’s such a hot idea. Listen to this. In this article, it says, “Sandy and Lonnie Phillips wanted to hold the gun companies that sold ammunition, tear gas, and armor to their 24-year-old daughter’s murderer accountable.” Instead, they’ve ended up having to file for bankruptcy. Now, you know, I can feel for anybody who has lost their child. It’s terrible. Honestly, I feel horrible for these people. But to attempt to blame the inanimate objects and the people that produce these because they’re being by a very small, miniscule number of folks get used criminally, and then try to hold the company responsible. It just is nothing less than an anti-gun ploy to sue the gun makers, manufacturers, and sellers out of business by abusing the tort system.

Evan Nappen 02:30

So, in response to this tactic that the antis were using, and still are attempting to use, of trying to sue our Second Amendment out of existence, Colorado passed a law that said you cannot bring essentially lawsuits of this nature against manufacturers, dealers, etc. Yet, despite this law, the Phillipses still attempted to sue under some very weak theory that obviously failed to still the Brady Center have their publicity stunt out of it, obviously, and to file the litigation, etc. They spent, as they say here, they lost three years of our life, fighting this, and it says they were like being revictimized, and I can see that. And what happened was the law in Colorado has a provision that says if you bring such an action, and then you lose, it gets dismissed, you are responsible to pay the attorneys’ fees and costs. And guess what? They ended up losing, and they had to pay $200,000 in attorneys’ fees and costs for bringing this action. That was an utter failure, and they should have known that it would be a failure.

Evan Nappen 04:22

And what’s interesting here, if you dig into this article, because they don’t want to make a big deal, you see, about just how bad the Brady Center acted in this regard. But if you dig down, you’ll find where it actually says, deep in it, that the Phillipses 2014 lawsuit, this is quoting direct from the article, was Page – 2 – of 8

brought in conjunction with and at the urging of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. . .” And it said the couple were pushing here to require businesses to take steps to prevent their products from being purchased by people who would use them in mass shootings. Oh, there you go. Yeah, how are they even going to do this. But anyway, that was their, supposedly, their laudable goal. Their optimistic, idealistic, pie in the sky, idea, and they’ll do it thru the tort system. So, they got sold this bill of goods. In the article, the Philipses say they trusted the Brady Center to have their back in the lawsuit, but they weren’t fully made aware of the financial consequences they faced before ultimately being forced to shoulder the defendants’ legal costs themselves.

Evan Nappen 05:50

You see Brady didn’t join in the lawsuit with them as a plaintiff. It was just these two. They were the only plaintiffs. And what’s really amazing is the article goes on, it says here that the judge overseeing the case apparently expected Brady to help the Philipses as well. It says, this is quoting from the judge, “It may be presumed that whatever hardship is imposed on the individual plaintiffs by these awards against them may be ameliorated by the sponsors of this action in their name. (Judge Richard P. Matsch wrote in a motion.)” Well, guess what? No such luck. Sorry, Judge. Brady ain’t paying for it. The folks who lost their daughter, who were convinced to bring this and who, as they say, weren’t advised as to the risks that were involved, they get to pay. They get to declare bankruptcy because they couldn’t afford to pay the costs and fees to the defendants. So, you know, this falls under the old adage of “F” around and find out. Because that’s exactly what happened to them.

Evan Nappen 07:20

Okay, here’s this law in Colorado, that says you can’t bring these actions, and then you bring the actions, and you lose. You’re responsible to pay attorneys fees and costs. But somehow, they thought this was still a great idea. Gee, I wonder if they were explained all the ramifications before they did this. Or do you think that Brady wanted to just go full steam ahead anyway, and got these folks as plaintiffs? And look what happened to them. Hey, this is the deal. And of course, the antis now want to repeal these protection laws. They want to repeal the ability to get attorneys fees and costs. But you know, what? Attorneys fees and costs are a significant aspect of dissuading folks from bringing lawsuits that never should be brought. And why should you have to pay to defend a lawsuit that should not have been brought? That you are, in fact, exonerated from? Why do you get stuck with your legal bills because some political organization wants to go after you and your industry by burying you in litigation? Shouldn’t you get attorneys fees when those efforts fail? I think loser pays is an excellent idea.

Evan Nappen 08:54

And if loser pays, not only in civil, loser pays should also exist in criminal, but it doesn’t. It doesn’t. If you get charged by the Government, you fight it out. You spend life savings, defending yourself, your reputation, the whole bit, and you get acquitted. Does the Government reimburse you for your fees? No. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Are you telling me that these attacks on gun owners, these horrible gun laws that you and I have discussed over and over again, these politically-motivated laws that have no impact on crime, that have these draconian penalties that screw over law-abiding citizens, where they face enormous amounts of state prison time that’s mandatory. They fight it, and they win it. But they can’t get reimbursed for their fight. And it shouldn’t be limited just to criminal actions. What about just licensing actions? The way New Jersey abuses the individual by putting hurdle after hurdle, and having Page – 3 – of 8

abuse of denials, that in my firm we win frequently, overturn these denial of Second Amendment rights. And yet New Jersey has no recourse for fees to be paid by the loser. The loser being the state of New Jersey. If the loser had to pay, if that issuing authority was responsible to pay your fees, you’d see a hell of a lot less of unjustified denials being made, that’s for sure, when they know that they’re responsible.

Evan Nappen 10:41

In other jurisdictions where they actually have that, such as New Hampshire, I actually had a case in New Hampshire where there was an unjustified denial of a carry license by the Chief. And that Chief had to personally pay, personally pay, the attorney’s fees for denying Second Amendment rights to my client. It’s why you don’t see too many issues like that in New Hampshire. If you’re going to deny, you better be solid in your basis for denial. You better really be justified because if you’re not and you lose, you can be responsible. But not in New Jersey, just the opposite. This is why you see so much abuse take place, folks. The abuse of the gun owner, the abuse of our Second Amendment rights, and anti-gun states have tried to stack it up. New Jersey even recently passed a law to try to get around the federal protection that the industry has from lawsuits, to try to couch it under Consumer Protection, and some other legal theory instead of in a whole entire department and through the Attorney General just to sue and go after gun companies and manufacturers, sellers all through America. So, they can export their tyranny, export it beyond Jersey, to the rest of America. Luckily, that law has already been enjoined with a nice win by NSSF (National Shooting Sports Foundation). So, this is what we see. This is part of the war on our rights.

Evan Nappen 12:30

And let me tell you, in terms of the war on our rights in Jersey, you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. I’m proud that they are sponsor of Gun Lawyer. anjrpc.org. Go to their website. They have full-time paid lobbyists in Trenton. They’re fighting and sponsoring and currently litigating, and I might say successfully even in Federal Court, on the Carry Killer, Anti-Civil Rights bill. They’re litigating right now over assault weapons and magazines. They just had that case consolidated in Federal Court. They’re litigating in state court and a case my firm has even, MU. The MU case is challenging this arbitrary and vague, licensing denial of the, what we call the all-inclusive weasel clause. The catchall of so-called “not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare”, whatever the hell that even means. We’re battling that out on constitutional grounds, and the Association is there. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs.

Evan Nappen 13:47

I want to tell you that not only when you join, you do a part of what every gun owner should become here, and that is helping in this fight. But you also get many great benefits from the Association. You get their news releases through email so you’re getting immediate, up to the moment, action news releases. You also get an outstanding printed newsletter. Let me tell you. One of the best printed newsletters on New Jersey gun rights in the state of New Jersey, and that is a member benefit. That publication keeping you informed is excellent. If you care about your gun rights, you need to get that and you need to read that. You also know that you’re part of the fight and helping to fund the battle for Second Amendment rights. So, please join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Do your part. Make sure you are a member. It’s the least you can do in New Jersey. Hey, when we get back, I Page – 4 – of 8

have some really interesting letters and some important information, particularly over questions that never end regarding concealed carry in New Jersey.

Speaker 3 15:23

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:38

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:52

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. Thank you for being a dedicated listener. Thank you for subscribing to this podcast, which is free. You can get the Gun Lawyer podcast anywhere you get your podcasts – Spotify, Apple, CBS, iHeart. You name it, and we’re there. Make sure you subscribe and listen as I give you the up to date info and heads up on legal issues. Things going on affecting our rights, left and right here. Of course, I have a focus on New Jersey, but not only New Jersey. New Jersey, you see, is a focal point for the battle on our gun rights. It’s like the front lines of our gun rights. Because New Jersey becomes the place where they test out all their wacky anti-gun laws, and then good people suffer. And I don’t want to see any of you suffer. My mission is to help every law-abiding gun owner in New Jersey not become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. Because that’s what gun laws do. They make you into a victim. The antis like to talk about victims of gun violence, gun violence victims, like there’s some distinction over the violence. It’s not gun violence. It’s criminal violence. But I’ll tell you what is gun specific. Gun laws, and honest, hardworking people, become victims of gun laws. Now that does distinguish out. New Jersey specializes in it. So, I don’t want to see you become a victim, and here’s some warnings and some important things to be aware of.

Evan Nappen 18:41

I’ve gotten a number of questions. First of all, one of the things we talked about last show was about Duty to Inform. There’s a Duty to Inform the officer if you have a carry permit and you’re stopped. I want to point out something interesting here. The Duty to Inform, and I meant to mention it last time, technically, the Duty to Inform does not take effect until July. That is true. However, the law for Duty to Inform has been codified and placed into the statues. So, if you go and look up on the New Jersey website, for example, where they list the New Jersey statutes, you’re going to see Duty to Inform law right there. If you go googling the newest versions of New Jersey law, you’re going to see the law that Page – 5 – of 8

says there’s a Duty to Inform, and you’re not going to see, you’re not going to see anything that says oh, this doesn’t take effect yet until July. Now legally, it’s true. It doesn’t take effect until July.

Evan Nappen 19:48

But the problem is, how are the police going to know this? How are the police going to know this when they simply look at the statutes putting it out as codified law already. If you want to know why it’s not in the statute, if you look at how the bill was written, anything that got put in the statute was either modifying an old statute, or it had to say New Section. But the last section that said when the dates were effective, didn’t say New Section, so it doesn’t get put into the codified laws. The only way you know is if you’re actually smart enough to dig into the chapter laws. But that’s not what law enforcement does. They’re not researching through chapter laws to find it. They’re just looking at the statutes. Oh, look, there’s Duty to Inform now. New law. There it is. It doesn’t say anything about when it takes place. And even though, sure, we could win. I’m confident over anyone charged, but I don’t think you want to be charged.

Evan Nappen 20:49

I also want to say that the problem in New Jersey is police are not used to individuals carrying guns. The mentality of New Jersey is going to be one of, why do you have a gun? And if you’re stopped, and you’re a law-abiding citizen, you have your carry permit, and you’re carrying your gun, and you don’t say you have a gun, and the officer sees the gun, I don’t want you inadvertently being injured or harmed. Having the officer take measures thinking you’re a threat. Just putting aside the legal requirement. If you’re lawfully carrying, and you have it on your person, and you’re in New Jersey, I’m just going to say from a practical point of view. If you get stopped by an officer, your safest course of action, honestly, is to let the officer know that you are lawfully carrying and that you have your permit. Because in July, that’s going to be required by law. Right now, it appears that it’s the law, even though technically, it’s not the law. But just putting aside the law. You don’t need to surprise that officer or yourself when he sees a gun on you that wasn’t brought to his attention upfront.

Evan Nappen 22:09

Think about it logically, folks. Keep your hands in plain view on the steering wheel and tell the officer about your carry gun. Normally, I get it. You want to keep your mouth shut about everything and not talk about anything, which is all good advice. But in this narrow situation when you’re a licensed carrier, and you’re in that stop, especially, you know, at night somewhere on a highway. Do you really want to risk your life over this going south because you didn’t want to tell them that you’re legal to be carrying? Try to use a little logic here, too. So, these are the things that are out there. Technically, it’s not in effect yet, but I’m going to tell you, as a practice, it’s your best bet. And if that’s your practice, and that’s what you set your mind to then come July you don’t even have to think about whether it’s July or June or August or May. You just have a practice in mind when you’re in New Jersey of how you’re going to act, and then you don’t get in trouble under the law. You stay protected and not a victim of any type of accident or inadvertent tragedy. Think about that.

Evan Nappen 23:31

Now, one of the letters I received here where I get lots of letters this is one that I think is of great interest from Paul, regarding defensive ammo. Hello Mr. Nappen. Can you tell me which ammo is legal Page – 6 – of 8

to carry? Hollow Point or Hornady critical defense ammo. This is a question we get a lot about what about hollow nose. What about defensive ammo when you carry with a carry license? The answer is that hollow nose is restricted in New Jersey and it’s narrowly restricted. You can have it at your home or place where you purchased it or at the range, but hollow nose itself you cannot carry even with a carry license outside of the exemptions. Now, that’s stupid I know. Why do they want high penetration ammo on the street? Because the dummies that passed this law don’t know anything about guns or ballistics, and they have this mythology in their mind. Oh, it goes in you know a small hole and comes out the size of a five-gallon bucket. Just idiotic crap that runs through their head. But we know the truth is that a hollow nose is very effective because it delivers the energy transfer to the intended target, and you can avoid over penetration issues. But that’s not of concern to the Legislature. So, you do not want to carry hollow nose.

Evan Nappen 25:13

Now with the ammo registration, they are even marking, even though the law didn’t call for it, they’re even denoting when you get registered of your purchase whether you’ve purchased hollow nose ammunition or not. I want to point out that the State Police, on their website where it has a firearm FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions), right there. It has an FAQ, and Question number 13 says, “I’m not a police officer, are hollow points legal for me to possess?” Then the State Police say: Yes. It’s legal to purchase and possess in your home, as we just discussed. They’re also legal to use at a gun range, again, as we discussed. You can travel with them to and from such places. Yeah, that’s all true. But then it says, and I think you’ll like this. “Ammunition lacking a hollow cavity at the tip, such as those with a polymer filling, are not considered to be hollow point ammunition. An example of this can be seen with the Hornady Critical Defense / Critical Duty, Cor-Bon PowRball/Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler, Inc. Defense Ammunition.” That is directly from the State Police website. https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

Evan Nappen 26:43

That ammunition, Critical Defense / Critical Duty, PowRball / Glaser Safety Slug and Nosler Defense ammo are not hollow nose and are not under the prohibition even though they may perform similar to how a hollow nose performs. You have a statement from the State Police to this effect. Now let me just say I had a very famous case on this. Roosevelt Twyne was his name, and Roosevelt was charged, a security guard, and guess what he had? Hornaday ammo. He had that Critical Defense ammo, and he got charged, even though he had a carry license, with hollow nose possession. Charged with the very thing that the State Police say. We won for him, and we were able to show precisely that the State Police said that they themselves say it’s legal, but it still took a fight. So, even though Number 13 here says it’s okay, and I understand the desire to have it, you still need to know that there may be some risks because again, the Police aren’t educated in the gun laws, and what things are not lawful. They look at statutes and say, oh, this looks like that. So, they charge you.

Evan Nappen 28:09

If you’re going to carry any of these rounds, I would suggest you go to the FAQ of State Police website and download Question 13. Keep it in the car with you. Keep it in your pocket, if you’re carrying this ammo. Because if it’s ever a question, you can take it out and say, look, this is right from the State Police website, and it’s legal right here. Boom. So that’s something you could find helpful. Like I said, Page – 7 – of 8

I’ve had cases of literally arrests being made, even though my client is completely innocent, and then we fight it out. And it isn’t just about hollow nose. I see false charges all the time. False charges on what’s an assault firearm. False charges because they don’t know what exemptions are. False charges. It’s just an overwhelming amount of false and wrong charges being made against honest gunners. Why? Because New Jersey’s law is so convoluted, so confusing, so ridiculous, that law enforcement themselves can’t even wrap their mind around it and get it straight. So, it’s arrest the folks and ask questions later. Even when they call the prosecutor, the prosecutors, the duty prosecutors, they don’t know. They don’t know. They haven’t studied this the way gun owners have studied it. Gun owners often know the law better than law enforcement. Most of the time, frankly, is when I see it most of the time. They know it better, but that won’t stop you from being arrested. So, take precautions.

Evan Nappen 29:59

One of the other issues I’m seeing a lot of is we’re getting a lot of questions about carry permits issued out of Monmouth County. Judge (Joseph W. ) Oxley has issued numerous carry permits now, and they contain this bizarre, quasi-restriction language on the back of the permit. This is on your carry permit now. “Restricted from carrying in any place prohibited by federal, state, or local law . . .” Okay, so what? That’s a big duh. Of course, you’re prohibited from carrying where it’s restricted and prohibited from carrying. Why do you even have to state it? But it states it, and that’s not the problem. The problem is the next part, “and shall comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A., 2C:39-6(g).” Well, 2C:39-6(g) has to do with the transport of firearms. Transport of firearms under 39-6(g) says that firearms shall be carried, unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, a gun box securely tied, packaged or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

Evan Nappen 31:29

Well, that about wipes out the utilitarian value of having a carry license, doesn’t it? Now, the first part of this statute says, “Any weapon being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section . . .” and then it specifies the mode of carry. Well, those subsection are subsections of Exemptions. Those are the exemptions that if you don’t have a permit, you have to rely upon. Yet here’s a permit, that is saying you have to rely upon exemptions and a mode of carry. It’s utterly confusing. It makes absolutely no sense to put it there. All it’s doing is causing risk to the permit holder to be interpreted that even carrying in your vehicle, carrying anywhere outside of the exemptions. Because those exemptions, subsection e. is possession in your home or place of business and subsection f. includes the hunting or target range exemptions. If you’re outside of those, then it seems to imply right away, hey, you’re doing that and you have to have it cased, unloaded. But that’s not the point of the carry permit. Because a carry permit means you don’t need the exemptions. You’re exempt on the face of the statute. It’s creating havoc, and it’s just flat out stupid. Yet there it is.

Evan Nappen 33:07

Person after person has had this burden placed on their permit without any rhyme or reason or explanation. It doesn’t make sense, and it creates this ambiguity and uncertainty. And it flies in the face, by the way, of the Bruen decision, which makes it clear that these types of restrictions when you have a carry is you can carry public, public carry, that’s what’s protected. Now granted you can I have a permit Page – 8 – of 8

system, and that’s what we have. But once you have the permit, you cannot do this, and you want proof. Look at the injunction. What did the injunction enjoin? Vehicle, possession in a vehicle. New Jersey wanted to mandate that if you transport it in a vehicle, you have to have your gun locked and unloaded. But that’s a separate law from the 39-6(g) exemption that the Monmouth County permits are now trying to require on the folks that have been granted them. But of course, it accomplishes the same thing. It’s barring you from transporting, barring you from your vehicle, barring you unconstitutionally in the face of Bruen, and not one, but two injunctions in federal court dealing with this topic, though not specifically this statue that’s on the back of this permit. So, it is a problem.

Evan Nappen 34:38

If you have a permit such as this, where this language has been placed, they’re creating a risk to you and your ability to carry. There are basically three options that you have. Number one, you can voluntarily give up your carry permit and reapply for a new one. Thankfully judges are no longer the issuing authority, thank God, for just this kind of problem, and Chiefs cannot put restrictions on. When you get your Chief issued, or superintendent issued license, it will not have this nonsense on it. It cannot be placed on it. The new law, as bad as it is, at least got judges out of the permit business, who’ve been burning law-abiding citizens out of their gun rights, since the beginning of the carry license system 50-60 years ago. The second thing you could do is wait for your permit to expire. They last for two years. And when you get your new one, you’ll get a non-judge issued one, again, not having restrictions. And the third option is you can try to go back to court to get it changed. But that’s an expensive litigation proposition. You can do that, and we are doing that for some. But it’s a shame that, again, you can’t exercise your rights within the constraints of the Constitution and not have to deal with these issues. But there you go.

Evan Nappen 36:18

We’re in this transition period, and this is the last hurrah, I guess, of some judges here to mess with permit holders. But we’ve got to end this practice. The new law is in place, and eventually, every carry will be a straight carry. But those that applied prior to December 22, 2022, before the law took effect, the new law, they still are under the old system of the judge issuing and those folks tending to have all these problems. This is yet another example. This is why gun laws don’t protect the citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:16

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E122_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 121- Ammo Registration is Here!Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 121SUMMARY KEYWORDS

insurance, new jersey, ammunition, handgun ammunition, law, gun, mandates, state, purchase, handgun, ccw, required, gun laws, permit, carry permit, disclose, firearm, carry, lawyer, gun violence

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:22

Hello, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well guess what? Ammunition registration has come to New Jersey. That’s right, the law was passed a number of months ago, but now it is up and running. So, when you go to buy handgun ammunition in New Jersey, you’re going to be charged a transaction fee for one box of 20 twos of $1.50, and you’re going to get databased with your purchase and your personal information. Let me tell you about exactly how this works. By the way, the sponsor of our show is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org. They are the foremost defender of gun rights in New Jersey, and they are the NRA state affiliate. They are working full-time trying to protect our rights and fight in the toughest anti-gun jurisdiction there is and that is New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 01:41

Now with this new law, when you go to the dealer you buy, like I said, even one box of .22s, the dealer is required to enter you into an electronic ammunition purchase database. Now this law itself can be found in the Criminal Code in New Jersey under NJS 2C:58-3.3a. This is specifically subsection a. What it mandates is the electronic reporting and record of transaction for sale, transfer, assignment, or disposition of handgun ammunition. This is the law. The State Police were required under this law to develop a program for retail dealers of handgun ammunition. So, that means they got to be a licensed retail dealer in New Jersey, because that’s what a retail dealer means under the law, to electronically report a record of any transaction involving sale, transfer, assignment, or disposition of handgun ammunition and the information related to that transaction. Now the law specifically says that the information shall include the date of the transaction, the name of the manufacturer, the caliber or gauge, gauge, that’s interesting, gauge, what handgun firing shotgun shells and I mean gauge not 410. That’s not a gauge. I missed the last 20-gauge, 12 gauge or 10 gauge handgun that was for sale. But anyway, it asks to record the gauge, or caliber and the quantity of ammunition sold or transferred. It needs to have the name, address, and date of birth of the purchaser; the identification used to establish the identity (of the purchaser) and any other information the superintendent may require.

Evan Nappen 03:53

So, what did the New Jersey State Police actually do with regard to this? Well, they created this electronic database that’s connected to the New Jersey NIC system. When a dealer is going to make the sale, they go on the web interface, and they click on. The first thing it asks is to put in your name and it does have a date of birth. Then it asks for the SBI number. Now where’s the SBI number? Well, Page – 2 – of 8

that’s on your Firearms ID Card. I guess you better have a Firearms ID Card or you’re not going to know your SBI number. If you have some an old Firearms ID Card, they didn’t even put SBI numbers on the old ones. Later, they finally started using them. Then it needs your residential address information, which is your street address and city and state and zip code. So, you’re going to plug all that in and that gets you registered in the database.

Evan Nappen 05:00

Then the ammunition information is as follows. The name of the manufacturer has to be entered by the dealer. Then it says ammunition type. Now this is interesting because, of course, it’s handgun (ammunition), but there’s a pulldown menu. Since only handgun ammunition is required to be registered, why do they have type for registration? Think about that. In other words, you know that their intention is to make all ammunition registered at one point. But for now, it’s handgun. Then it has the caliber, and it asks the quantity. The quantity has to be the number of rounds, folks. So, it’s not one box. It’s 50 rounds or 100 rounds. Then it also asks something that’s very interesting, because it’s not in the law that this needed to be asked. But they ask whether it’s hollow nose ammunition or not. They are distinguishing whether individuals have purchased hollow nose ammo or not. Now why they asked for that? I don’t know. It’s not required under the statute. Hollow nose ammunition can lawfully be purchased from the dealer and can be brought to the range or brought to your home. You’re allowed to possess it there. So, why are they distinguishing whether it’s hollow nose or not? I don’t know. But all that’s being databased on you. Then you’re being charged the extra $1.50.

Evan Nappen 06:43

So, this database simply databases you as an ammunition buyer, and the ammunition you purchase. But ammunition itself isn’t serial numbered or registered. And here’s the other thing about ammunition, it gets shot. So, if you use your ammunition, you may have been recorded for purchasing, but it doesn’t mean you still have it or nor would still have it. Because it’s like recording gasoline purchase for your car. Then you use it, and you buy more. I mean, it’s pretty ridiculous. Think about this database, all it is is intrusive. All it is is a database that you know is going to be used for some bad purpose eventually. To go at our rights. To be supplied in searches or whatever. The person is an ammunition purchaser. To look at quantities purchased over a time period. Yet, nothing about this exercise here, nothing, will have anything to do with fighting crime, with solving crime, with stopping crime. It has nothing whatsoever to do with criminals. Nothing. It is just databasing with intrusive information and charging a fee, of course, to create this database on law-abiding citizens. So that the government knows that you’re an ammo buyer. That’s it. It does nothing to actually address anything having to do with the criminal misuse of firearms, or the stopping of crime. It is ridiculous. Yet here we are having now to do this.

Evan Nappen 08:49

Folks, there’s another element to this that you need to be very much aware of because not only is it creating this database, and creating, if you will a beta of the database. In other words, this is just the first step. Because you know, they’re going to want to increase the information that they’re requesting. They’re going to probably have limitations at some point on the amount of ammunition individuals can buy. They’re going to look at the amount of ammo you buy, maybe use it to judge whether you should Page – 3 – of 8

have another permit or not, or whether you’re hoarding ammunition. Who knows what idiotic theories they’ll come up with to use this and abuse it.

Evan Nappen 09:36

But also, in this law and also this will come up in this registration is the following requirement. Listen to this, folks. Any transaction involving the sale, transfer, assignment, or disposition of 2,000 or more rounds of handgun ammunition and the information related to that transaction shall be immediately reported to the superintendent. In other words, if you purchase more than 2,000 rounds in one transaction, you’re getting investigated by the State Police for your purchase. So, folks, if you want to buy 4 bricks of .22s, you’re asking to be immediately reported to the State Police for this ammunition transfer to be investigated by them for this quantity purchase. That too, is in law. So, you need to be aware of this. This only applies, of course, to the purchase of ammunition in New Jersey from retail dealers.

Evan Nappen 10:55

Now, the problem is, it’s essentially going to close out online purchasing of ammunition from out of state. Because unless they’re a retail dealer, that person under New Jersey law, not an FFL under federal law, but a New Jersey retail dealer, they are not going to have access to the New Jersey computerized NIC system, which gives access to the database ammunition purchase requirement that has to be fulfilled for them to sell in New Jersey to New Jersey, or transfer to that New Jersey resident. So, I don’t see how any of the companies can lawfully sell handgun ammunition, online or mail order anymore, even though under federal law, it’s legal. But New Jersey I think is blocking it with this. Unless they’re going to allow if any company is even willing to do it, to become a New Jersey retail dealer outside the state of New Jersey, so that they can be licensed and regulated by the state of New Jersey, so they can have a retail dealer license, allowing them to sell ammunition so they can record the purchases, I doubt they’re going to go and do that. So, that’s a problematic issue.

Evan Nappen 12:24

Additionally, here, it talks about the retail dealers of handgun ammunition are required to do this. Now there is another law that had been on the books for a longer time than this, substantially longer, that required for the sale of handgun ammunition that a person have ID. This law came into effect in 2007, whereas this new law now is 2022. But since 2007, there has been a law in New Jersey that before someone can purchase handgun ammunition, they have to produce an (valid Firearms) ID Card or a Pistol Purchase Permit or a Carry License along with a current driver’s license. So, you have a dual identification requirement for the purchase of ammunition with your gun license and your driver’s license or other current government ID. That was one thing where the proof of your ID and then you could buy ammo, but it wasn’t registered. There was no fee. There was no electronic (registration). It was just identification purposes for that.

Evan Nappen 13:59

In that law, there was an exemption, an exemption that says nothing shall be construed to prohibit the de minimis amount of ammo, handgun ammo, at a firearms range. So, if you’re just selling ammunition for use at the gun range, you didn’t have to do this. They exempted it. Or at a rifle and pistol club etc. However, that exemption was on the old law, which is in a different section. They did not put that Page – 4 – of 8

exemption into the electronic database law. There is no de minimis range or pistol club exemption for handgun ammunition transfer there. So, it appears that even when you go to the range, you’re going to still have to do this intrusive databasing for your handgun purchase and pay the fee. I mean handgun ammunition purchase, and pay the fee for that ammunition purchase. Even though you’re just using it at the range, which becomes more of a pain in the neck, of course for the ranges. Now, unless the State Police or somebody issues some guidance saying no, the de minimis transfer at a range just like the old law still applies to the electronic. But technically that law, that electronic registration law, did not exempt like the other law did. So, when we come back, I have some great letters to Gun Lawyer with some excellent questions.

Speaker 3 15:44

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk and virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:58

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:13

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I appreciate your listening to the Gun Lawyer podcast very, very much. It’s an opportunity for me to help spread the word and the news about various gun laws and things taking place that the mainstream media does not like to see publicized. It’s a great way to get the word out to learn about these things and the inside information. I am particularly proud that our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, is fighting for our rights every day. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. They are currently litigating on multiple fronts in federal court and state court on Second Amendment issues. Just recently, there has been action with the Association’s case in Association versus Plotkin where both the magazine ban and the assault firearm ban are being challenged in federal court for constitutionality under the Second Amendment. The Association is in litigation over the “Carry Killer, Anti-Civil Rights” bill right now as we speak. They’ve succeeded in getting injunctive relief in the form of a TRO. There is a lot more to come with the preliminary injunction hearing on that same legal action, and they’re making great progress there. They’re also involved in a state challenge actually in a case called MU, which is a case with my firm challenging the constitutionality of the licensing disqualifier for “not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare”, and its unconstitutional nature that leaves it vague, subjective, and a violation, of course, of our Second Amendment rights. The Association is there helping to fight these cases and to Page – 5 – of 8

defend our rights in the toughest environment in the United States. That is the state of New Jersey. So please join the Association. Make sure you’re a member. Go to anjrpc.org and join your state association.

Evan Nappen 19:54

Now I have a letter here from Robert and what Robert says is regarding NJ CCW liability insurance coverage. Now CCW seems to be a term for “Concealed Carry Weapon” that is out there in the ether that gun people use. But in New Jersey, we don’t have a CCW. What we have is a PTC, a Permit To Carry. Now it so happens that our Permit To Carry does require that it be concealed. But it’s not a weapon permit. It’s a handgun permit. Some states have Concealed Weapon Permits that go beyond simply firearms. New Jersey limits it strictly to handguns. It’s a Permit To Carry, so we prefer to use PTC. But I totally understand what Robert is asking about, and I’m sure you do, too. And that’s regarding NJ CCW liability insurance and says Evan, your podcasts are invaluable. I’ve taken one of your seminars a few years ago, and you made a lot of confusing laws extremely understandable. Well, he must have caught me on a good day then. Let me tell you. My question is I’m having a difficult time securing liability insurance for my NJ CCW. It seems the standard insurance companies, USCCA, CCWSAFE, etc. are not offering in New Jersey. Do you know of any insurance companies for NJ?

Evan Nappen 21:32

Thank you, Bob. Well, here’s the deal, Bob. You’re right, and this is quite an interesting situation. You see, under Murphy’s Carry Killer Anti-Civil Rights bill, one of the things that he put in there was a requirement to have insurance if you have a permit to carry. Now, this does not kick in until July (2023). So, it does not become effective until July. If you have a carry permit, now, you do not need to get this insurance. But I understand that folks want to be pre-emptive. They want to get the insurance before, and frankly, having insurance itself isn’t a bad idea. There’s nothing wrong with the idea of having insurance. It’s a good idea. So, in that regard, it’s fine. But what really isn’t fine is when it’s mandated by the Government, which is what the Carry Killer Anti-Civil Rights bill does. It requires us to have certain limits and have certain structure to what they are mandated to insure. And that’s where the problem comes in. It is my understanding that there is no major insurance company that can actually write the insurance, the way the insurance companies are interpreting this law that New Jersey requires. I know that U.S. Law Shield, for which I’m an Independent Program Attorney, I know that US Law Shield has looked into this as well. None of the major insurance companies can do it because they believe that it mandates that insurers ensure intentional acts. And insurance does not apply to intentional acts. Insurance is for accidents, for negligence; not for something intentionally done.

Evan Nappen 23:36

What makes this even more ironic and crazy is that a number of years ago, Governor Murphy made a big hoopla from his office, announcing that he’s prohibiting the insurance that gun owners wanted to get from USCCA, Carry Guard, etc. This was simply insurance that covered you if you needed defense in a legal action, because you used your gun in self-defense. It was not liability-type insurance where there were judgments or things that could get paid, but it was a legal services type of insurance. Murphy banned these from New Jersey by Executive Order and called them “murder insurance”. He said, we’re not going to have murder insurance in New Jersey. Now it so happens that U.S. Law Shield was not insurance but a member organization. Not an insurance company type deal. U.S. Law Shield had Page – 6 – of 8

already gotten approval through the banking and insurance commission as not being insurance, and they were allowed to still continue to operate because they weren’t insurance. But the other companies were forced to leave because Murphy banned murder insurance, which of course, none of it was murder insurance.

Evan Nappen 25:15

But now, lo and behold, he signs his Carry Killer Anti-Civil Rights bill, and in it is an insurance requirement that mandates that you have insurance that covers intentional acts. In other words, he’s mandating that you get actual murder insurance now. That’s what he’s looking to have you insured for – actual murder, which is not the case for what insurance companies would normally ever insure. They don’t insure nor sell, “murder insurance”, intentional acts. This is something that are exclusions in insurance policies. So, unless something gets worked out with the Insurance Commission, the insurance companies, and it gets figured out what type of insurance can actually be made by these companies that can actually fulfill whatever this law is requiring, we’re not going to see any insurance. And that’s why there is no insurance available now that actually meets the bill. Now, I have heard that there are some companies claiming this, but in fact, they have exclusions and nothing in writing that says this, in fact, covers it, because I don’t believe it does. I know that these other companies have been trying to provide a product to meet it and can’t. So, if anyone claims to have such a product, I’d be highly skeptical. Because these other major companies that deal specifically with gun owners cannot get this product out there. So, beware. It is something that is fraught with peril, shall we say.

Evan Nappen 27:02

Now, there is one good news about and that is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs in their litigation, in their challenge to the Carry Killer, Anti-Civil Rights bill, is challenging the provision that mandates the insurance. So, we will have a preliminary injunctive hearing prior, well prior, to July, where we may, in fact, see that the requirement for insurance is found to be unconstitutional anyway. So, don’t go fretting about this just yet. Because it doesn’t take effect till July, and I believe there’s a very reasonable chance of success here for us in defeating this requirement. Because think about it, they’re requiring insurance. The Government is mandating insurance for you to exercise a right, a right equivalent to the First Amendment rights, such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Do you think it would be okay if the government mandated that you have insurance before you pray in church? Or that you need to have insurance before you do a letter to the editor? Do you think that’s okay? No, of course it isn’t. The Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms is in the same level as a First Amendment rights as per Justice Thomas in the Bruen decision. Therefore, I think there’s a good chance that the insurance mandate will not be upheld. So, let’s see what happens. But until then, getting some insurance that meets these criteria is highly unlikely. But let’s just say we do win as I suspect we will. It’s not a terrible idea to get insurance, just generally speaking, for firearm carry, etc. Those products I believe will be out there that you could get that just are not “murder insurance”, but actual insurance for the law-abiding carrier of a handgun.

Evan Nappen 29:22

Okay, I got another great letter here. This letter is from Yuri, and Yuri says: Dear Mr. Nappen, I have a question about how to handle a traffic stop by police when traveling between the gun club and home. This is not a CCW question. Here we go that CCW stuff again, but that’s okay. Just an FPIC holder Page – 7 – of 8

driving to and from his gun club. I’m always careful when driving during these trips. Rifles and pistols are in a locked case. Ammo is in a separate locked case. No hollow point ammo of any kind. Targets and gun cases are covered with blankets in a minivan. That’s good because plain view of a gun case is probable cause for a search. You want to keep your gun cases covered. Besides the commonsense things to do during a traffic stop, front windows down, engines off, and hands on the wheel. Do I inform the police officer that I’m a New Jersey FPIC holder, that I have guns in my van, and I’m traveling to the gun club without any route deviations? I’m a great fan of yours. Have all your books, studied the section on page 255, but he didn’t find the answer to this question. I’m 72 years old, retired. Member of U.S Law Shield, NRA ANJRPC and CJRPC, which is Central Jersey Rifle and Pistol Club.

Evan Nappen 30:49

Well, Yuri, I appreciate your being a fan and trying to stay on top of all this. Let me give you some specific answers to your questions. First of all, in New Jersey for folks that have a carry permit, a handgun carry permit, if you are stopped, you have a duty to disclose whether in a motor vehicle or in public. You have to immediately tell the officer that you have a handgun, even if it’s in a box, in the car, in a case in the car, or loaded on your person, even if it’s unloaded and in the box, or loaded on your person. If you’re a carry permit holder, there is a duty to inform the officer. Failure to do so is a crime in the Fourth Degree – up to 18 months in State Prison. You must also produce your carry permit, and if you fail to produce that, it’s a misdemeanor, what Jersey calls a disorderly persons offense. Now that is for folks with a permit to carry that have a handgun in the car, either loaded or unloaded. They must disclose it to the police.

Evan Nappen 32:03

But if you do not have a carry permit, then you do not have a duty to disclose. Yes, that’s actually true. So, as long as you don’t have a carry permit, you do not have to tell the officer that you have a gun in the car or a gun in a box, or even a gun on your person, which you shouldn’t have on your person. Not only do you not have a duty to disclose that, but also you have a Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination to not disclose that. As far as other guns, as Yuri asked, about long arms – rifles, shotguns – no, you have no duty to disclose that you are transporting rifles or shotguns, that you’re transporting firearms at all. As a matter of fact, you should say nothing about having guns in the car, guns being transported or where you’re going. Because all that does is escalate the situation to seeing your gun, searching for your guns, and then charging you with possessing your gun so that you have the burden of proving your innocence, which is how New Jersey has structured their gun laws. So, absolutely do not disclose that you have a firearm of any type or any sort in the car unless you are a holder of a Permit To Carry. Because then, you’re required to disclose that you have that handgun on you and to show your permit. That is New Jersey’s law, in a nutshell. It makes a lot of sense, doesn’t it, folks? Good grief.

Evan Nappen 33:37

Anyway, I appreciate your great questions, folks. And I want to thank you for being listeners. It’s this kind of information, where it’s so contradictory and so counterintuitive, and so just absurd and ridiculous, that I can straighten it out on the show. I’m happy to do it and it helps make all of us safer, and not become victims of New Jersey gun law. You’ll hear the antis talk all the time about victims of gun violence, which is a load of crap because it’s not gun violence. It’s criminal violence. I happen to be pro-gun violence. Just the right gun violence.

In other words, if some bad guy is threatening myself or my family with deadly, deadly force, and I am justified in using my firearm, guess what I’m using on him? Gun violence. That’s right. And I’m for it. That’s when you need it. So, it’s not about gun violence. But I’ll tell you what you never hear about. You never hear about victims of gun laws, not victims of gun violence. Victims of gun laws. That’s what Jersey does. It makes victims out of their gun laws. I don’t want to see any of you become a victim. Same with our great sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 35:28

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E121_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 120- How’s The War Going?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 120SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, law, gun, gun rights, permit, carry, rights, issued, fighting, marijuana, restrictions, war, gun laws, judges, court, anti, lawyer, battle, case, gun owners

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:22

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I’ve been thinking about current events and guns, and I kind of realized that there is a really good analogy. There’s really a war on us. A war on gun owners. A war on our rights. A war on guns. And this war is fascinating to see because I have news for you, we are actually winning the war. The war isn’t won yet, that’s for sure. But we are winning battle after battle. And it is really a fascinating time to be alive when talking about and thinking about gun rights. Because if you think about the struggle that we’ve had as gun owners through the years, and I’ve been practicing gun law for over 35 years. When I started, we didn’t have any kind of Second Amendment case law that we could use. We were always the most unbelievable of underdogs. Granted, a war was going on there, but it didn’t have the same intensity. Because as we fought hard for our rights, the antis ended up getting major billionaires supporting their causes and setting up all kinds of well-funded, left-wing, anti-gun groups and pursuing strategies and getting basically the Democrats for the most part to make this issue a part of their platform and selling them on pushing gun laws and the seizing of our gun rights. The destruction of us and our gun rights is good politics for them.

Evan Nappen 02:38

So, we’ve been fighting this battle, and it really is a war as a multitude of battles on a multitude of fronts. I realize what my position is here, and yes, I’m fighting these gun laws. I’m on the front lines, many times, fighting the gun laws and defending law-abiding citizens from being turned into criminals. It’s similar and is important, just like our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs has been there defending gun owners in New Jersey for years and years. You need to join the Association. You need to protect yourself and be part of the movement and be part of these forces that are fighting on your side. But I realized that through this battle, and as we’re making this progress, it’s actually through the war of multiple, multiple battles, that what I primarily try to do is make sure that as we fight and win these battles, that you, the listener, do not become a casualty in the war.

Evan Nappen 03:55

We’re going to win this war. We’re winning it battle by battle now. We’re going to win it. But in the process of fighting to win, I want to see as few of you become a casualty of the war on our Second Amendment rights. So, what Gun Lawyer is really about is helping you not become a casualty in the war on our rights, and in fact, be able to protect yourself and survive this. So that when we have our ultimate victory, you are there to celebrate it and exercise your rights like never before, and therefore Page – 2 – of 8

have them preserved for future generations. That’s really what wars do, isn’t it? Especially when you win them. You’re preserving that way of life, that culture, that freedom, and those liberties for yourself and future generations. It’s really what we’re in.

Evan Nappen 04:58

So, if you look at the state of the war is now on our rights, you see that we had a tremendous victory with the Bruen decision. Actually, a trifecta of victories from Heller to McDonald, and to Bruen. Creating what has become our defense system, our Iron Dome, if you will, against our enemies. In response to our Iron Dome being created of the Second Amendment and Constitutional rights, our enemies have decided to launch mega amounts of missiles at us. Just launch rocket after rocket after rocket. Because after Bruen, particularly, we’ve seen an enormous increase in anti-gun laws being passed. Yet, just like a great Patriot missile system, we keep knocking out their missiles and their rockets. They fire at us, and we blow them away. We are blowing them away in such greater volume than we ever had, and that is something that makes me cheer. Because as I sit back, I see gun laws falling, case law, courts deciding our way. As we’re fighting, gaining ground, more ground, just like in a war, it is incredibly encouraging. In a very weird way, but true. These are glorious times. They’re glorious times because we’re fighting battle after battle that is so worth it.

Evan Nappen 07:03

And what’s really funny is if you think about the anti-gun strategy, they’re fools. They really are fools. Because of their multiple launches of law after law that they’re passing, like petulant children, like just, you know, cannot wrap their mind around and accept that, yes, we have these rights. We have the right to defend ourselves. We have a right to carry. We have a right to have a firearm. We have these rights. They can’t stand it, and their response is bad gun law after bad gun law after bad gun law launching and what do we do? We fight back, and we get court victory after court victory in the fight. And you know what’s really funny is that each one of these issues as we get the case law built and we have ultimately, a conservative Supreme Court now, that will eventually get many of these issues. Our ability to build an impenetrable system for our rights, through the Supreme Court, is being handed to us by the aggressive war on our rights by the anti-gunners.

Evan Nappen 08:19

So, it’s ironic as well, because their onslaught of magazine bans, assault weapon bans, pistol brace bans, and trying to gut concealed carry by enormous numbers of insane sensitive places. Every strategy they can come up with. Registration and multiple disqualifiers to just try to chip away at individuals. Every one of them is making caselaw, and we’re winning battle after battle. All of this is heading eventually to the conservative (United States ) Supreme Court. We will end up with such a body of case law, affirming our rights, that it’s going to be great for future generations. We’re going to, thanks to the anti-gunners making all these moves now, we can establish strength to the Second Amendment, like never before. And we’re doing it now. So, when you hear about all this stuff, these bad laws, these idiots, the crap that they pass, make sure you tell yourself, but wait a minute. There’s actually a positive side to this. The positive side is that it’s now a chance, the best chance, to destroy their efforts, destroy those missiles launched at us, and to win this war for good.

Evan Nappen 10:00 Page – 3 – of 8

I just wanted to share those thoughts with you, as well as some letters from great listeners that have some important questions that I want to share with you. Let’s start here with a letter from Stephen. Stephen asks, regarding gun purchase background check and medical cannabis card. Evan, I obtained a medical cannabis card, and I sent it back requesting to abandon the card and be removed from the program. I feel that if I purchase a firearm, I will not clear the background check. Or if I apply for a handgun permit, I will fail the background check. Do you have any advice for me? And in fact, I do.

Evan Nappen 10:54

As we’re talking about winning battles and you may recall that we actually coined the phrase on this show, Bang or Bong, you can’t have both. And that’s because the marijuana law, federally marijuana is still banned. It is still prohibited. And you know, the states that deal in marijuana are like the largest drug dealers in America, against federal drug laws. It’s just a fact. They’re illegally selling marijuana, contrary to federal law. Now the feds are turning the other, you know, turning the other way, not looking at it, ignoring it, and letting it take place. I understand that. But they didn’t change the gun law portion of it. And because it’s still banned federally and it’s still asked on the federal form, it’s still a disqualifier for those that are users of marijuana. Even though you have a medical card or even though your state has legalized marijuana, it is still illegal. Now recently, there’s been a case where it was decided, in a federal case, that said, marijuana is not a disqualifier and cannot be a disqualifier. It found the marijuana disqualification unconstitutional.

Evan Nappen 12:18

Now that case is not binding law in all of America. But it is yet another battle won in the war on our rights, because it is eliminating yet another disqualifier stopping people from exercising their rights. But that case still has to travel through the Appellate Courts, and maybe it’ll end up at the (United States ) Supreme Court so it can have universal application here in America. But it is a great battle won in the war. It is a demonstration of the power of our new Iron Dome of Heller, Alito, and Bruen. The test for constitutionality is taking out a disqualifier like that, and it is extremely encouraging. But at the moment, there’s still the federal ban. By giving up your cannabis card, you are relieving yourself of having a per se admission to being a user of marijuana. And by sending it back and no longer being part of the program, you are no longer a user. Now some folks suggest waiting a year after surrendering it if you’ve had a possession charge. Even though that’s doesn’t necessarily mean you’re using, but again, waiting a year. That’s the rule of thumb on being freed from the claim of a marijuana disqualifier. But in essence, you’ve given up the card and you’re no longer a user, then you’re no longer disqualified as a user. And so that’s a good thing.

Evan Nappen 14:05

But as we progress here, we’re seeing that not only about those steps, but the disqualifier itself has already taken a hit in one battle. And hopefully we will see the end of that as a disqualifier in the United States. I mean, it’s really pretty foolish when you think about it. When you have these states that are selling marijuana, recreationally and medically, all over the place, and the feds aren’t enforcing it on the states. Even though it’s directly a violation of the federal drug laws. And yet, they will try to use it against gun owners. It’s just stupid. It’s time. You know, let’s keep it consistent, folks. If you’re going to ignore it, then it’s time to remove it from the federal schedule, and it’s time to no longer make it a disqualifier. But politically and legislatively, that doesn’t seem to want to get done. So, the courts have Page – 4 – of 8

stepped in, and it’s looking better and better to have court-mandated solutions to it. Hey, when we come back, I have some other great letters in the Ask Evan for Gun Lawyer that I want to share with you.

Speaker 3 15:30

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk and virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:44

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:59

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen and thank you for being a listener and for subscribing to Gun Lawyer. We are one of the highest-rated gun podcasts that are out there, and it’s because of you. I love speaking with you and filling you in on all kinds of great, important, useful information. Of course, helping to make this possible is our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs, the NRA affiliate for New Jersey. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs does great work. They’re currently involved in multiple litigations, fighting for our gun rights. Not the least of which is going after the Murphy “Carry Killer / Anti-Civil Rights” law and trying to fight and challenge the magazine ban, the assault firearm ban, and the licensing criteria. That is part of what is the MU case, which is a case that my firm actually brought, challenging the catchall, subjective clause, for denying individuals their gun rights. The so-called “not in the interest of public health, safety and welfare”. The Association is also there on your behalf lobbying, with a full-time lobbyist in Trenton. You really need to be a member of the Association. By doing so, you can get email alerts, be on top of the hottest news, the changes and the challenges, and to be a part of this side of gun rights in the war. You want to be a part in this war. You don’t want to be a casualty. You want to be a fighter, and you want to be part of it. Join the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. anjrpc.org

Evan Nappen 19:01

I have a letter here from Bobby. Bobby says, Regarding concealed carry and medical emergencies. A person with a PTC (Permit to Carry a Handgun) is carrying his firearm and is involved in a motor vehicle accident or experiences a medical emergency and needs to be transported to the hospital in an ambulance. What should he do with his firearm? Probably not a good idea to arrive in the emergency room with a firearm strapped on your hip. What would happen then? He can’t legally transfer Page – 5 – of 8

possession to anyone else (spouse, coworker, family member etc.). Should he report the situation to a police officer that responded to the emergency and ask him to secure his firearm for him. Will this lead to issues in getting it returned when he’s discharged from the hospital? What do you recommend?

Evan Nappen 19:49

Okay, we’ve had these cases where individuals are in an accident and actually knocked out, unconscious. They come into the hospital and the hospital uncovers firearms on a person, and the hospital themselves have protocols when this happens. They will secure the firearm and have law enforcement get involved. So, if you’re unconscious and your gun is there at the hospital, you’re not the first person to be taken to the hospital with a firearm on their person. They have protocols to deal with it. Now, if you are in fact conscious but still need to go there, then one of the things is, of course, to have the lockbox in your car. You can unload your firearm and secure it in the lockbox and have that lockbox secured around the base of your seat, etc. So that it’s locked and secured and out of view. Therefore, you’ve been prudent and have properly secured your firearm. If the police are involved and it’s an emergency, you can tell the police and ask the police what to do. They will probably take your firearm into possession. And yes, you’ll have to get it back. They might try to give you a hard time, but normally they don’t.

Evan Nappen 21:04

Because the fact is you had an emergency, you’re going to the hospital, you wanted it to be secured, you did the right thing, and it’s time to get your property back. You didn’t break the law in any way. You were simply having a medical emergency. So, it’s not something that you need to really worry about in that regard. It’s something that I’ve dealt with, as an attorney, getting firearms returned for folks that have had medical emergencies and had to be taken to the hospital. Especially if you’re unconscious, obviously, you’re not guilty of committing any kind of crime or going into a sensitive place like a hospital. You don’t even know you’re being taken there. But if you do know and you do realize it, then you need to take the steps so that you don’t end up having that problem. The best would be to turn it over to law enforcement or to properly secure it. You should always have the ability to do that in your vehicle. You shouldn’t be traveling in a vehicle with a firearm and not be able to secure it in a gun safe of type. Because you never know when you may need to leave your car, and it may be a situation where you cannot take your firearm with you. Particularly in New Jersey, the law makes a specific proviso for securing your unloaded firearm in a locked container in your vehicle.

Evan Nappen 22:43

Now John sends a letter, and he says, hello Evan! I’m a big fan of your podcast and it’s amazing what you’re doing for our 2A rights. I just received my PTC which had some restrictions listed on the back of it. Judge Oxley from Monmouth County Superior Court issued me a Permit to Carry a Handgun in January. On my permit, a restriction was placed on it that says I must comply with the provisions of NJS 2C:39-6.(g) which places restrictions on how the firearm needs to be transported. As I understand, essentially restricting carry ability on my person in my personal vehicle, essentially making my CCW useless. My permit did not come with a court order. No other restrictions and no “checkbox” under “see below” where it says restrictions. And that’s where it lists none or see below or see court order. Actually, no box happened to be checked. But then it does say restricted from carry in any place prohibited by federal, state, or local law and shall comply with the provisions of NJS 2C:39-6(g). As I Page – 6 – of 8

understand it, all new permits are being issued by a Chief of Police without such restriction. So it seems my permit was processed in the middle of the rules and procedures change. In light of the new TROs, do I have to comply with these restrictions? Is there any way to get my permit reissued by my local PD? Thanks in advance if this is something I need to schedule or pay, let me know etc.

Evan Nappen 24:29

Okay, let me explain what happened here. Under the old law where judges were involved, judges did judge things. And part of the judge things that judges do and that they were doing is they were doing anti-gun efforts on our ability to carry. Part of their anti-gun efforts were creating restrictions and such through their judicial power. Now many of these restrictions are unconstitutional. They were not proper. When the new law passed that statutetized the restrictions that many judges were putting on and more, that law became subject to litigation in which certain portions have been temporarily restrained. There’s going to be more restraints by way of the preliminary injunction. I’m confident in seeing that. Yet here in the middle of this process, this individual, John here, ended up unfortunately, getting a judge-issued permit that puts this element into it that shouldn’t be there, because the vehicle carry requirement under the law has been restrained by a judge saying it’s not essentially Constitutional. And that having to lock up your firearm while in your vehicle is restrained under that statute.

Evan Nappen 25:50

But here with John, we have a Court that has issued this license, and this is kind of a very confusing statement here. The first part is about not carrying in any restricted prohibited place, federal, state, or local law. Well, that’s just a big duh, isn’t it? The judge has to tell you, you’re restricted from carrying in places where you’re prohibited from carrying. Isn’t that because you’re prohibited from carrying? You know, wow. But no, he felt obliged to have to mention that to you. Why? I don’t know, because the law is the law. He also didn’t put on there, the entire criminal code for you to follow either because it’s the law. You don’t have to list it. But there it is, and then adds in these provisions of 2C:39-6(g) which are restrictions on the mode of transport. Now 39-6(g) exemptions go to the exemptions under 39-6, such as transport to the range, transport between your homes or moving or going to the target range or going hunting. Then it references in those exemptions 39-6(g), which is a mode of transport, that does require your firearm to be unloaded and then either in a locked, actually not locked, it actually says in a closed fastened container unloaded or in a gun box or secure wrapper or locked in the trunk of your automobile.

Evan Nappen 27:27

The new law for vehicle carry that was enjoined, mandated that it be in a lockbox. Now 39-6(g) doesn’t mandate a lockbox, but it does mandate that it be unloaded. It’s completely screwed up to even put this on a carry permit, and just creates enormous confusion. It’s also got a lot of ambiguity going forward. But here’s the bottom line. The bottom line is there’s an argument that could be made that if you’re not within the provision of 39-6(g) when transporting, then you’re in violation of the restriction even though your license isn’t marked restricted. This license is Court issued. So is the court issuing of a license, a judicial act itself, that could be construed as a Court Order, because it is signed by a judge. And if it’s a court order, you cannot violate a court order, because you can be held in contempt of the order. This should not be there. It’s wrong to be there. You’re allowed to have it in your vehicle under the law, because that’s been enjoined. Page – 7 – of 8

Evan Nappen 28:32

So really, what needs to be done here is either obey it, so you don’t get into trouble, or you can go back to the Court and ask the Court to remove it, and to conform its language with the current legal situation in federal court, with the current new law that’s been enjoined, that allows vehicle carry and to ask that it be amended thusly, by removing the language of comply with provisions of NJS 2C:39-6(g). The other thing that can be done is you can wait it out. Then when you apply to get your new permit, because the permit only lasts for two years, from your chief. Chiefs have no authority to put restrictions. All the permits issued by Chiefs are unrestricted. It is just great that judges are no longer the issuing authority for just this reason. Remember, the problem of “justifiable need” was created by the judges about 50 years ago. The judges created the impossible to achieve tests. It’s been judges that have stood in the way of our rights. Not enhanced them or protected them like you would think they would do. Here’s yet another example of rights being restricted, completely contrary to what our understanding is under Bruen, and even what is expressed by way of the federal law. Yet, there it is. There it is. And ignoring it could be at your peril. The other thing that could be a possibility would be to surrender, voluntarily surrender, your carry license that you have now and then reapply now through the Chief. Then you would get a Chief-issued license with no restrictions. That, too, is an option. I understand that none of it is ideal. But this is a transition period of getting judges out of the permit business. And unfortunately, it has to be dealt with by individuals such as yourself in the war on our gun rights. This is yet another battle. But thanks for the letter, John. I understand your frustration.

Evan Nappen 30:54

I have another letter here. Regarding PTC and again, what does it say? He’s got a restricted license, as well. This one is regarding the restriction that says about the qualification of his handgun. His handgun is listed as the one he qualified with, and the question is, can he only carry that or any handgun that he owns? The law right in 2C:58-4, right in the carry law, in the first paragraph says one permit shall be good for all handguns. It says it flat out. And what do we have this other court doing? This court is ignoring it and putting one gun on and creating a situation where it appears that you’re only entitled to carry the one gun that they placed on the permit. It’s not clear, and you’re taking a risk if you carry some other gun. Basically, what you need to do here, in my opinion, is play it safe. Carry the one gun that you’re allowed to carry. When your permit expires, after two years, you’ll get one issued by the Chief of Police, and under that, it will not have any restrictions. That is how to handle it. But you can see, folks, how judges are constantly screwing up the system. They’re going against our rights and creating havoc in this way. And that is why one of the greatest things about that horrible “Carry Killer” law, the anti-Civil Rights bill is that it removed judges from being issuing authorities. In that regard, we have made significant progress. But until then, here’s yet another victim of a judge limiting rights without legal basis. Unfortunately, this is the current situation, and the solutions are how I have outlined them.

Evan Nappen 33:08

Folks, I want to remind you that this fight is continuing. The war is continuing, and it is critical that we understand where we are now. I don’t want to see any of you ever become a casualty. But take heart and know that we’re winning battle after battle, and the future has never looked so good for our Second Amendment rights. Please join ANJRPC. Please make sure you belong and that you’re part of this fight Page – 8 – of 8

and can stay informed as to the latest issues. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens, and boy, I wish the judges would get that through their heads. Till next time.

Speaker 3 34:09

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E120_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 119- Jersey Carry UpdateAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 119SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, sbr, gun, prohibited, brace, places, pistol, litigation, state, blocked, new jersey, law, short barrel rifle, carry, court, protect, possess, preliminary injunction, lawyer, atf

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:20

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, these sure are exciting times that we’re living in. As I’m sure you’ve been following, we’ve had tremendous successes in the litigations that have been ongoing against Murphy’s onslaught against our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey. The Governor is spearheading the anti-civil rights bills that are focused on destroying Constitutional rights, particularly the Second Amendment. Just recently I am happy to say that his Industry-Killer Bill, which was designed to allow abuse through the civil system by way of the Attorney General being able to sue gun companies all over America and anyone associated with firearm manufacturing, etc, and go at them under this guise of consumer safety, etc. This whole gambit has been granted a preliminary injunction against that law taking place. That’s one of their main missions there. To become a national destroyer of firearm rights for the country not just for New Jerseyans, and to eliminate the right for all Americans throughout the country. It has now been the recipient of a preliminary injunction, and congratulations are due to those folks in gaining that preliminary injunction.

Evan Nappen 02:08

At the same time, the New Jersey Carry Killer bill, which was and still is a bill designed to limit and destroy our ability to no longer be victims, but instead to become defenders against violent criminals. Of course, as soon as the Court in the Bruen decision came out with their ruling and the great Justice Thomas’ opinion, empowering and putting teeth into the Second Amendment and our ability to carry a firearm outside the home, the most effective means of self-defense, and be able to defend ourselves, New Jersey jumped jammed through the legislature a bill to try to limit, in every way possible, the carrying of a firearm in New Jersey. Because now that permits had to be issued, they wanted to make the permits themselves a nullity, and what they did was pass this what we call “Carry Killer” law.

Evan Nappen 03:29

The Carrier Killer law was immediately challenged. As soon as it became effective, there was litigation brought, essentially two major lawsuits. One by what we call the Coalition. Four pro-gun groups together bringing an action that was somewhat limited, but very effective. It focused on the “sensitive places” restrictions. The State Association, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, is a proud sponsor of Gun Lawyer. They brought a more comprehensive litigation, but it was heard after the Coalition litigation had been granted the TRO. The Association litigation got consolidated into the same action in court as the Coalition’s litigation and that actually worked out tremendously. Remember these Page – 2 – of 7

groups are not in competition with one another and here, it actually worked beautifully. Because the first action, which was somewhat more limited than the Association’s action, got an injunction and that got the camel’s nose in the tent, so to speak. Then the Association’s litigation more comprehensive, additional injunctive relief by way of a Temporary Restraining Order was expanded.

Evan Nappen 05:10

So, now I want to review with you, the listener, because I know you want to know where you can and cannot carry under the new litigation that was put forward by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. We have the following places where there were carry restrictions, but those restrictions have now been blocked by the court as to being unconstitutional. These places specifically include, very important, the vehicle prohibition. The “Carry Killer”, anti-civil rights bill by Murphy had a provision that said when you get in a vehicle, your gun had to be unloaded and locked in a box. We call that provision, the “Car Jacker Protection” law, because that’s what it did. It protected criminals and carjackers and those bent on violently attacking you in your car. It protected them while forcing you to be a victim and to be disarmed. That has been enjoined and restricted, blocked by the court. So, it is not in effect, and you can carry with a Carry Permit a loaded handgun in your vehicle.

Evan Nappen 06:44

There is a private property restriction in which it mandated that the property owners had to affirmatively state, affirmatively state, that you could carry your gun on private property where you were otherwise, the default setting, if you will, the default setting was that you could not carry and that has been blocked by the court. So, that private property rule is not enforceable. Additionally, there was a prohibition on having a firearm in a bar or in a restaurant where alcohol is served. That has been blocked by the court. You can have your gun at a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served. Now, that doesn’t mean that you can drink alcohol or that you can have alcohol consumption. But if you’re in a place where alcohol is being served, you can still have your firearm under your carry permit.

Evan Nappen 07:49

Entertainment facilities – that was attempted to be banned where you could not have your gun in a movie theater. You could not have your gun at entertainment venues. That has been blocked by the court. You are allowed to have your firearm, your personal protection at entertainment facilities. There was a block on parks and beaches and other recreational facilities that has been blocked. You can have your firearm at parks and beaches and other recreational facilities. The only one of the sensitive places in that section to not be blocked is playgrounds, children’s playgrounds. You are still prohibited from having your firearm even with a carry permit. Additionally, there is the restriction that was on State Park Service properties. That has been enjoined from state parks – blocked by the court. Casinos, believe it or not, casinos and casino or casino simulcast facilities – that has been blocked, that has been restricted. So, you can carry in the casino or casino facilities. Also, publicly owned library or museum – that was attempted to be a sensitive place and that has been blocked. These are all the places that the court has stepped in and said no, you can’t enforce that. That’s not enforceable, and blocking the enforcement so that law- abiding citizens can protect themselves.

Evan Nappen 09:36 Page – 3 – of 7

Now, there still are a bunch of places that you are prohibited. This is just the initial stages of this litigation. Keep in mind as it proceeds, the next step is whether there’ll be a preliminary injunction and then after that a final injunction and these things can change. We may, in fact, see more places blocked from being enforcement of so-called sensitive places, barring us from having guns, or we may see, it’s possible, that some of the places currently being blocked from enforcement may suddenly be unblocked and found to be constitutional. I doubt it. Because the standard is so high to get that Temporary Restraining Order with that likelihood of success. But it could happen. So, this is an evolving situation.

Evan Nappen 10:32

But currently, in the places that I’ve discussed, you are lawful to still carry there. Additionally, the Court made it clear about educational facilities where there’s prohibition that these things are narrowly construed. The State even conceded in the hearings, narrow construction. My colleague, Dan Schmutter, is an excellent attorney, and he litigated this. He did a great job there for ANJRPC, and he ended up getting some really great concessions out of the state as well as a victory from the court.

Evan Nappen 11:17

But the following places are still prohibited, and I want you to be aware of that. Places of government administration, you know, administration buildings, essentially, police stations are still prohibited. That’s a good example. Courthouses, correctional facilities, all right. Don’t bring your gun to state prison. Okay? I mean, seriously, I had to tell you that, but okay. It’s in the law. State contracted halfway house, don’t go armed to the halfway houses. Playgrounds are still prohibited. No guns at a playground. Polling places, election etc. Don’t have your guns at polling places. Public gatherings are still on the list. This can seemingly be somewhat vague, and I’m sure there’s going to be challenges. These things have to be narrowly construed. But beware of public permitted gatherings where there may be restriction there. Be cautious about that.

Evan Nappen 12:20

Childcare facilities prohibited – nursery school, preschool, zoo and summer camps. This is still prohibited area, but these are narrowly construed, of course. But still, they’re prohibited. I think it’s interesting how they group nursery schools, preschools, summer camps, and zoos. With kids running around, I guess it is like a zoo. Hmm. But zoos are still right in there. College, school, university, other educational institutions and youth sporting events. These are still prohibited places. Homeless shelters. Licensed community residences for disabled and terminally ill.

Evan Nappen 13:06

Cannabis retailers or dispensaries. So, if you’re going to go buy weed, do not carry your gun into the dispensary. Not only is it prohibited under New Jersey law, but if you’re using weed, it’s prohibited for you to have a gun at all. That’s federal law. Now, it’s actually illegal as well for the state to be selling marijuana, because it’s still prohibited under federal law. But that they don’t worry about. They just don’t want you carrying a gun in their drug dealing facilities, you see? So, please don’t do that.

Evan Nappen 13:40 Page – 4 – of 7

Additionally, there’s a prohibition on the energy plants, whatever this means, where energy is produced. It’s kind of vague. It’s kind of broad. I mean, if you have solar panels, you can’t ever carry? It’s got to be narrowly construed, but watch out for energy plants, airport or transportation hubs. These are also problems and prohibited and sensitive places. Addiction or mental health treatment facility. Then the movies, public filmmaking, that we call the Alec Baldwin prohibition. You cannot have your gun if you’re making movies. So, those are still in place. Now whether they will remain in place remains to be seen. Beware and be careful.

Evan Nappen 14:32

But there has been expansion and the ability to carry has been broadened here by Judge Bumb, who has done a great job in Federal Court. Really laying out the case beautifully and showing why the Temporary Restraining Order should issue and in fact did issue, but the fight is not over. We’re going to be heading into that preliminary injunction phase and from there to what will be final injunction. I’m sure there’ll be continued litigation. This is why it’s so important that you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org. They’re funding and fighting for our rights, not just in court, but also legislatively, with our lobbyists, full time paid down in Trenton. This keeps you, as a member, up to date with the email alerts that come out. It really tells you what’s going on up to the minute so you can get the hottest, freshest, most important gun news. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. When we get back, we’re going to tell you about the impact of the Biden Pistol Brace ban. It is also in a state of evolution, but there are important things you need to know now that it’s been promulgated.

Speaker 3 16:12

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:26

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:33

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and I appreciate your listening to the show. My being able to get the word out to help you to protect yourself and to see what’s going on. To get the real truth on these gun issues that the media itself does such a poor job of ever communicating. Now recently, we’re seeing movement on the Biden Pistol Brace Ban. It’s really a shame because the pistol Page – 5 – of 7

brace originally was designed to help wounded veterans and other disabled folks be able to shoot more accurately. It is a device that goes on a pistol that helps steady the pistol by creating a brace effect to one’s arm, increasing the size of the handgun, because it has this brace coming off the back. By attaching to one’s arm, it makes a gun more accurate.

Evan Nappen 18:53

So, what you have is Joe Biden and company banning accuracy with handguns. Because that’s all a pistol brace does is help the individual to shoot more accurately. They have created a law that they pulled out of their ass, frankly, because it’s not passed by Congress. It’s done by ATF making an interpretation that’s counter to the interpretation that they’ve had for almost 10 years, saying that a brace is okay and that a brace is lawful. Suddenly putting three to 30 million Americans in jeopardy of now possessing a short barrel rifle (SBR) because their pistol with a brace is now recategorized.

Evan Nappen 19:47

When you get right down to it, what does the brace do on the pistol? It makes it more accurate. Somehow they are saying in so many words that a more accurate firearm is a danger and that we want less accurate firearms. We want handguns that cannot be shot as accurately. We want wild rounds missing the target and going far and broad and hitting innocent persons. We don’t want you to be able to control your gun and control your shot even though they claim to be for “gun control”. But they’re not for this kind of gun control. We’re talking about gun control where you actually can control your gun. No, when it comes to actually controlling your gun, they want to stop that, and they criminalize it.

Evan Nappen 20:41

They, therefore make a braced gun, a declared SBR (Short Barrel Rifle) which puts it in the prohibition category under federal law that is equivalent to possessing a machine gun. So, if you have a braced pistol, it’s the same as having an unregistered machine gun. The Feds put out a rule in which the options are not many for New Jerseyans, particularly. Now generally in America, if you can possess an SBR in whatever state you’re in, the Feds will let you register your pistol braced gun. And with it registered, meaning a federal registration under NFA (National Firearms Act), normally, that’s $200. They are somehow waiving the $200, which is frankly, legally not possible, because only Congress would have the authority to do that. The agency doesn’t have the ability to say no tax. But somehow they’re trying to get away with that by calling it, I don’t know, some other thing other than actual tax waiver. But the bottom line is, they’re normally should be a $200 fee. They’re getting rid of that, whether that’s lawful or not, remains to be seen. You get to file the National Firearms Act (NFA) registration, and once you do that, then it registers your braced pistol as an SBR.

Evan Nappen 22:21

The problem is in New Jersey and other states like Connecticut as well, there is no lawful way to possess an SBR. So, by not being able to possess that SBR under state law, you now simply have contraband. ATF is not allowing for registration of pistol braced firearms in jurisdictions where possession of an SBR would not be lawful. So, if you are in New Jersey, you want to register your pistol braced firearm as an SBR, and you’re willing to file the form to do it and to go through the hoops and loops to do the proper Federal registration, ATF will not allow you to register it. You will not be permitted to do so because the state jurisdiction that you’re in, in this case, New Jersey, or for example, Page – 6 – of 7

if you’re in Connecticut, does not allow your possession of the item as NFA. So, you’re barred from making yourself legal. You cannot make yourself legal by doing that registration.

Evan Nappen 23:48

This period of time that’s available to make yourself legal is 120 days, that’s it. After that 120 days, if you haven’t registered it as an SBR, then you’re unlawfully in possession of that SBR. The other options are you can destroy and get rid of your firearm. I’m sure you’re all going to run out and do that. Or it appears that you can remove the brace and that currently, right now, the best advice is to remove the brace from the handgun.

Evan Nappen 24:33

With the brace removed from the handgun, it is no longer an SBR, and there’s case law that talks about how this has to be interpreted. That’s the Supreme Court case of Thompson Center. In that case, the Court essentially decided that even if you have the parts that could make, for example, an SBR or short barrel rifle, if you have not assembled it into that, and you have other parts there that you could make it into a lawful firearm, that under what’s known as a rule of lenity, you are legal for your possession.

Evan Nappen 25:19

So, for example, let’s say you have an AR pistol that has an AR brace on it, and you’re in New Jersey. You cannot register it as an SBR federally because Jersey doesn’t allow you to possess your SBRs. If you remove the stock, that is satisfactory to the feds, apparently, but you must have another gun, that would be legal for you to have that brace on. Something like an AR rifle with a 16 inch or greater barrel that that brace could go on. Then you have essentially met under Thompson Center the criteria to have the brace removed from the other one, not on it, and you have another gun that could actually use it, you don’t actually put it on it though. Therefore with it removed simply having the two components, the pistol and the brace does not give you an SBR. You don’t have a problem at that point with the individual possession, since you happen to have that AR rifle that would fit the brace part. I know it’s convoluted and bizarre, but this is essentially where New Jerseyans are left. The option for registration cannot be utilized by New Jerseyan, and therefore, it’s going to end up being the removal.

Evan Nappen 27:10

Now further complicating this are the guns that are considered “others”. Guns that are considered like the Troy A4s, etc. When you add an “other” and there was reliance on pistol brace, then you see that no longer is a brace considered just that, a brace, and the configuration of that firearm changes. What you may very well end up with there is an “assault firearm” under New Jersey law because now it’s going to be deemed as a rifle that uses a detachable magazine. Then it has more than two offending features, and you’ve got a problem. This is all very gun specific, and we’re going to have to see how this continues to roll out. But Jerseyans have special problems here and other jurisdictions as well, that do not recognize the SBR possession.

Evan Nappen 28:14

Even though all this is going on, there’s also major litigation. Litigation in multiple circuits going at this very law. The arguments that are being put forward are, of course, bringing in the Second Amendment. One of the very interesting arguments and I’ll just share with you as to how pistol brace is arguably Page – 7 – of 7

protected by the Second Amendment is because of what the Second Amendment protects. The Second Amendment protects the arms that are “in common use”. Now the NFA that has prohibited short barrel rifles. Well, ATF is now taking a ruling, and it’s making essentially 30-40 million guns under a definition of short barrel rifle. Well, when you have 30-40 million guns, that’s called “common use”, folks, and you’ve just placed the very item that you’re attempting to prohibit squarely under what is protected by Heller and McDonald and Bruen. And that is commonly possessed firearms. When they’re in the millions and millions and possessed by Americans in such a way, then they’re commonly possessed, and they’re protected by the Second Amendment. So, in effect, ATF has hung itself by its own petard by creating this ridiculous interpretation of the old rule. Banning these braces, whose design is simply to make something more accurate, and particularly to be of aid to wounded and disabled veterans and others. So, the fight is on. But if you’re in any of these jurisdictions where action needs to be taken, please take the appropriate action because you don’t want to become the test case.

Evan Nappen 30:38

Meanwhile, make sure you belong to your state association. Make sure you belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, easily found at anjrpc.org. Stand up for your rights and protect yourself and your future generations’ rights to have firearms and to not be victims but to be defenders. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 31:17

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media Production The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E119_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 118-Biden’s 40 Million SBR’s… Brace Yourself Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 118SUMMARY KEYWORDS

brace, firearm, short barrel rifle, pistol, sbr, new jersey, gun, biden, atrocity, new jerseyans, called, gun laws, law, sutherland, national firearms act, abiding citizen, nfa, lawyer, pistol grip, government

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:18

Hi, I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, you may have heard that our President has pushed another bit of his urgent, vital, gun control efforts to help destroy the Second Amendment, which is his agenda, of course. Part of that has been to abuse through agency regulation in any way that he can. Not just go after dealers, which you’ve heard me talk about, and we’ve had that fight on a couple of dealers already where we’ve luckily won. But now one of his latest moves is to reclassify what are called “pistol braces” as making firearms into SBRs, which are Short Barrel Rifles. Now the pistol brace has been around almost 10 years now. What it does is it attaches to a handgun, so it gives greater stability and allows for greater accuracy when shooting your handgun. It is used extensively by wounded and injured veterans and those that have injuries or handicaps with shooting, and it would allow for their ability to shoot much better and more accurately as an aid in bracing the firearm. They became very popular because with a brace, even though there was debate as to whether you can or cannot shoulder a brace until eventually it was determined you can shoulder the brace. What would occur is your firing of a pistol with a brace became more accurate. The bottom line, all a brace does is make your shooting more accurate.

Evan Nappen 02:14

So, it is fair to say that Biden has engaged in a war on accuracy. When you shoot a firearm, they want you to be all over the place. They don’t want accuracy. They want you to hit targets you didn’t intend. They want bullets to fly wild. They obviously do not want you to be accurate because all a pistol brace does is improve accuracy. What Biden has done, through his administration, has determined that the brace turns a firearm into an SBR. An SBR is a short barrel rifle. Now short barrel rifles and short barrel shotguns have been prohibited under the National Firearms Act since the 1930s. They’re in the same category as possession of a machine gun. Now the whole absurdity of the 1934 National Firearms Act is a whole other debate we could have, and the National Firearms Act is itself an affront to the Second Amendment. The politics that created the ban of the ’30s were a combination of what was a naive understanding of the progun folks at the time. And of course, a major dose of Hollywood. It was the media even then, who were the few that misused firearms. These things were turned into Warner Brothers movies. Everyone knew that if you ban machine guns, you would end gang violence and that only criminals use these things. All of that’s, of course, nonsense and false, but the same politics of that period of the 30s. Page – 2 – of 7

Evan Nappen 04:09

They say that the idea of an SBR or short barrel rifle really shouldn’t even have been something that was ever banned. The reality of it is we need to repeal the entire NFA because there’s just no reality to it. You start distinguishing between fully automatic and semi-automatic, and it really just gets downright silly. Bullets are coming out of that gun, and it’s the person not the firearm. If your barrel is short but you have a stock so now it’s a little more accurate with the stock than if you didn’t have a stock on a shorter barrel, who cares? There’s been various workarounds that of course show the absurdity to it all with sawed off shotguns. Because we ban sawed off shotguns, but we can have a shockwave. So, try to distinguish any kind of material issue between a sawed off shotgun and a shockwave, there’s nothing. Sawed off shotguns shouldn’t be prohibited either but why not? We have 14 inch barrel shockwaves, and it’s not a problem. It comes down to people, not guns.

Evan Nappen 05:14

This is something that we’re going to get to a little later in the show. Its focus on material objects has always been a folly. But the problem with the folly is that there can be serious penalties at play if you are caught in their game of musical chairs, and you end up being a victim of gun laws. I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of gun laws. So, for example, someone has sent a letter to me and it’s on this very topic. From Salvador, regarding pistol braces. Evan, now to BATF has determined that any pistol with a pistol brace be classified as an SBR. How does this affect New Jersey residents that have purchased NJ legal “other” firearms?

Evan Nappen 05:55

Well, this is a very important question. Not only for the United States in which there’s an estimated up to 40 million pistols with braces. That’s the estimate. Anywhere from 10 million to 40 million of these braced pistols. Individuals in New Jersey have a special concern because it is particularly troublesome for individuals in New Jersey. I’ll explain that in a minute. The SBR issue itself is going to turn all these into the equivalent of possessing, essentially an unregistered machine gun under federal law, because SBR is sort of in that same category. So, you’re going to have to take some kind of action unless the lawsuits that are coming are successful in stopping this law from taking effect. The onus is on us, it’s on us to take action. That’s our ATF. They’re like the original make work agency, of course. Why did they allow this for 10 years and then suddenly reverse themselves creating this havoc? This wreck? This mess? They knew originally that it was fine, and it served this great purpose. Now politically, that’s all that’s changed.

Evan Nappen 07:13

So, this brace rule says that within 120 days, you’re given this so-called grace period to take action. One of the actions that you can take is you can voluntarily give up your gun and brace. I’m sure everyone wants to run out and just give a no compensation. Give up their gun and their brace. They say that you can remove the brace, but it’s not really crystal clear about everything about that removal. More information is going to come out because, although they published this, there’s one little step more to being completely formalized, but it should happen any day. Maybe by the time you’re hearing this show, it might have officially been triggered. So, removal of the brace appears to be an option. But we may have to do, we might have to do more than remove it. Time will tell. We got to see, but at least removing it seems to be an option. Page – 3 – of 7

Evan Nappen 08:08

The other thing is you can register, which they’re allowing you to do. A National Firearms Act registration, where you register your braced pistol as an SBR with the federal government. They supposedly have a 120 day grace period to do that registration. So, you can keep your brace on the pistol if it’s registered as an SBR, and that’s an NFA (National Firearms Act) registration through the feds. Normally, there would be a $200 tax to do such registration. The key here is that they have waived that. They’re not imposing, shall we say, the $200 tax. So, you’re able to do this NFA registration without spending the $200. How nice of them. If you want to take that option, that is of course an option.

Evan Nappen 09:09

But here’s where the problem comes in for New Jerseyans. You see New Jersey doesn’t currently have pistols with braces under New Jersey law, a pistol with a brace as determined by the State Police who followed federal regulation regarding this, to their credit. They said look, the Fed says this is just a pistol with a brace, and we’ll go along with that in so many words. But now, here’s the problem. The feds no longer say that. So, in New Jersey, if you have a pistol with a brace under the Fed reg that has now changed, you now have an SBR, a short barrel rifle. You do not have a pistol with a brace. And although the feds will allow you to possess a short barrel rifle, if it’s properly registered under the National Firearms Act, which the current rule change supposedly allows you to do within 120 days. You can register it as an SBR but that only makes you legal for federal law purposes. It only makes your SBR, formally pistol brace now SBR, federally legal, but in so doing, you’re federally declaring that your pistol is now a short barrel rifle.

Evan Nappen 10:53

Under New Jersey law, there is no lawful way for a citizen to possess a short barrel rifle. Short barrel rifles are prohibited in New Jersey, period. End of story. It doesn’t matter that you have a federally registered, NFA legal, federal government approved short barrel rifle. New Jersey says short barrel rifles are prohibited. So are short barrel shotguns, for that matter. So, what you’re doing is essentially incriminating yourself into possessing contraband under New Jersey State law in the attempt to legalize your possession of the item under federal law. The New Jersey gun owner is in an even further predicament, thanks to President Biden’s anti Second Amendment, anti-constitutional efforts that he is doing through agency abuse. That’s what’s going to hammer New Jerseyans.

Evan Nappen 12:11

Now as Salvatore asked, what about other firearms, “other” meaning the firearm that is declared an “other”. Not just talking generally about “other guns”. He’s talking about the others, which is a legal definition for firearm or something that is neither a pistol nor a long arm. It’s put in that category of “other”. Then with a brace on an other, what do you have? And that becomes a very important question. Because if you have an “other” and it has a brace, is the braced other going to be viewed as needing a registration to make it an SBR or an SBS? Because now it becomes a short barrel rifle or short barrel shotgun. Part of the rationale that allowed many of these “others” to exist, particularly like Troy A4s and other guns of that configuration are now in question. Page – 4 – of 7

Evan Nappen 13:14

We’re going to need to get actual analysis and some type of official legal opinion as to what happens in New Jersey as far as how the State Police want to regard it on those that possess these type of “others” that use pistol braces because the police state police opinion on allowing the Troy A4 and “others” relied upon the federal definition utilizing pistol brace, which they can no longer rely upon. Because now the braces make for firearms falling into other categories. The categories include the possibility of short barrel rifles, short barrel shotguns, etc. So, it’s quite a mess, and it gets even worse for New Jerseyans. They’re barred from short barrel rifle possession but also if this firearm is suddenly deemed to be a rifle that is short barrel, the short barrel part put that aside, it’s now a rifle.

Evan Nappen 14:22

Well, if it’s a rifle that uses a detachable magazine, now the question is, is it an assault firearm? Since many of them have features that would be more than one so-called offending feature, such as having a pistol grip, and a threaded barrel, threaded muzzle that is, a pistol grip with a flash hider, a pistol grip with a folding or telescoping stock on these guns. Well, if you have a pistol grip and any one of these other things, or a bayonet lug, or a grenade launcher, which I doubt you’d probably have on there unless you go out grenade launching on weekends. But the problem, as you can see, is that you can then end up possessing under New Jersey law an assault firearm as well as “other” prohibited gun under either an SBR and SBS category. It gets very messy, very messy, and very dangerous for New Jersey citizens under these efforts by Biden. So, be warned and beware.

Evan Nappen 15:31

You’re going to need to take action within 120 days under federal law. As far as registering it, that doesn’t look to be a viable option for New Jerseyans. So, the most likely option is going to be removal of the brace, and you’re going to have to do it in conformance with what satisfies the criteria under this rule, and how that’s going to be viewed. I’ll have more information on that in upcoming shows, but you’ve been warned. So, watch out. You can thank Biden for this, and you can see his direct destructive results and the Democrats as to what they’ve done to our rights. This is why you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. We are proud to have them as a sponsor of the show. They are the lobby group, the political arm, the state affiliate of the NRA in New Jersey, and you need to be a member because they fight these issues. They’re fighting for us as we speak. When we come back, I’ll tell you more about them. I have an important story about just the case that I feel illustrates the absurdity on so many levels of gun control, and I think you’ll be as fascinated as I was by this particular case.

Speaker 3 16:09

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk and virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you Page – 5 – of 7

never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 18:26

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 18:42

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. So, I was telling you about the great organization of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Every gun owner in New Jersey needs to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You can easily find them on the web at anjrpc.org . Make sure you join and be a member. They also have a range membership, too. They have a beautiful range called Cherry Ridge Range, and it’s literally shooting into the side of a mountain. It’s very gorgeous and beautiful, but you don’t have to belong as a range member. You can just belong as a regular member and not a range member. But no matter what, you need to belong. They are the key group, the key group fighting for our rights. A full time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they are heavily involved in litigation going on fighting for gun rights and utilizing the newly found strength of the Second Amendment. Thanks to Justice Thomas and the Bruen decision.

Evan Nappen 20:04

So, recently the Justice Department has done something that’s just amazing and fascinating to see. This is a case in which I think it is just chock full of the greatest examples of the failure of gun control. The failure of what the anti-gunners are looking to do, and it speaks to it on different levels through this whole episode of what was a terrible atrocity. I don’t call these things tragedies. I call them atrocities because that’s what they are. That’s what these individuals are committing. They’re committing atrocities. The one that I’m talking about here, this is known as the Sutherland Springs attack. Sutherland Springs in Texas. As you may recall, in 2017, there was an attack in Sutherland Springs on the church there, and in this attack on the church, by this individual, who went on this atrocity, this rampage. He killed I believe 22 persons and injured 26 persons. It was a terrible tragedy that is not a tragedy at all, but is an atrocity. Yet you’ll constantly hear it called a tragedy.

Evan Nappen 21:50

It’s an atrocity because it’s the individual, when you start talking about tragedy, then it somehow makes it sound like it’s something that we’re to blame for, and we’re not. It’s this guy that’s to blame. But you see in this case, the lawyers for the survivors of the victims, and their families, they’re suing, and they sued. They sued the Government and here’s the interesting thing. What ended Sutherland Springs, what ended that attack, first of all, and you may have heard about it, was a law-abiding citizen with an AR-15. That’s right. The hero of Sutherland Springs is Stephen Willeford. You may have heard about him. He was the guy that went and grabbed his AR, and went there and helped out and stopped this atrocity from becoming even worse. Here, a citizen with an AR-15 is a critical component to stopping this what the antis like to call gun violence. All right.

Evan Nappen 23:09 Page – 6 – of 7

First of all, Sutherland Springs stands for the proposition of an armed citizen with an AR-15 making a difference. Now, the auntis hate that, of course. They hate that, because that goes against their narrative. It goes against their agenda. So, what makes this case so interesting is not only do we have a law-abiding citizen saving the day with an AR-15, which just drives the auntis nuts, but also from this atrocity, there was a lawsuit. The lawsuit ended up in which Biden’s DOJ. This is Biden’s DOJ who has to defend what happened here because this individual who caused all this mayhem was somebody who never should have been allowed to purchase a gun under current federal law. But the Air Force failed, and this isn’t even something that’s questioned. The Air Force failed to put into the database for NICS that he had a domestic violence prohibitor, that he was dishonorably discharged, which would have been a prohibited, and then he had an involuntary mental health commitment that would have been a prohibitor.

Evan Nappen 24:39

So, here’s a guy with three disqualifiers under federal law. Any one of which would deny him the ability to purchase a gun. The Air Force did not put this information into the database, and he was able to purchase firearms that he apparently ended up using in his deadly spree. Now the Government ends up getting slammed in a lawsuit for $230 million. They’re held responsible in the civil suit for the failure of the Air Force to put this information into the NICS database. So, it actually put the Government in the position where they had to argue that they’re not responsible, because the NICS database won’t stop somebody who’s bent on committing crimes. Yeah. Our Government actually said this. Listen to this. Listen to this. The Government argued that the perpetrator was aware of many avenues for obtaining firearms without going through a background check, and he was determined to commit his premeditated crime. The Government insisted that the system’s failure to stop it, it can’t be considered the legal cause of the harm, because he would have found another way to get a gun. That’s Biden’s DOJ arguing that, folks.

Evan Nappen 26:23

Think about this now. They’re arguing that NICS doesn’t work. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t stop criminals, and mad men from getting guns, even if the Air Force had put the information into the system. Well, well, they had to admit it. They’re actually using it in the case where they’ve been found liable because their own BS about stopping individuals, that NCS is somehow effective, has bitten them in the ass for $230 million. Okay? And they don’t like that now, when reality bites you in the ass. That guess what? You’re now responsible for this stupid system that doesn’t work anyway. You’re responsible for this. And they’re holding the Government responsible through the Air Force not putting the names in, even though the Government itself argues that even if they had put it in, it wouldn’t have stopped him.

Evan Nappen 27:33

So, let’s just take a step back from this whole thing now. Why the hell do we even have NICS? It is a complete recognized failure by our Government. It doesn’t work. Our Government admits it won’t stop criminals. So, who’s it stopping, folks? You and me. It’s just law-abiding citizens put through yet another hoop, another bunch of “disqualifiers” that don’t stop anybody anyway. Yet, it’s an intrusion on our rights. It is there to make the public feel good when the Government itself admits it doesn’t work. There’s still plenty of avenues that bad guys can still get their guns. So, every time you see NICS (National Instant Check System) being pushed, every time you see oh, we need to add this disqualifier Page – 7 – of 7

and that disqualifier, and we have to go through these background checks. What did we learn? What do we know? That it doesn’t work. Why are we using a system that is admittedly a failure and admittedly, not doing what it set out to do to the degree that our own Government uses it as a defense? Because our Government is held liable when their own pack of lies, bites them in the ass over what NICS should be doing, but never does. And in fact, can’t do. That’s the stupidity of this in a lawsuit brought because of an atrocity that only ended because of a law-abiding citizen with an AR-15. The other thing that the antis want to stop. So, this Sutherland Springs case is the prime example of the folly and the failure of gun laws. There’s just no question about it.

Evan Nappen 30:00

This is why I’m here and that you’re listening to Gun Lawyer so that you can see the truth. We have to keep fighting for the truth. The truth is on our side. Please make sure you support the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol clubs at anjrpc.org. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. It protects criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 30:41

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E118_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

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Episode 117- Size Matters… and Other Lies Cops TellAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 117SUMMARY KEYWORDS

exemptions, law, charged, insurance, new jersey, gun, carry, judges, lawyer, association, gun rights, gun owners, handguns, anti, lie, court, home, police, state, carry permit

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:00

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I got some updates, and some interesting things are rolling. I’m sure we’re going to have some more excitement. As I’m sure many of you know, there was a Temporary Restraining Order issued, as we’ve discussed by Judge Bumb, who we are calling Saint Bumb for issuing the restraining order against a number of the sensitive places that create this gutting of our carry license. It was about maybe five I think were part of that first lawsuit, and then the vehicle transportation as well, like we discussed. But there’s the second lawsuit and that’s the Association’s lawsuit. You know, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs who is a sponsor of this show. And that is a more comprehensive litigation that covers much more than the Coalition’s and the Coalition’s as successful and so far, excellent. As I said before, these organizations are not in competition with one another. They’re all fighting for our gun rights and have taken two different approaches.

Evan Nappen 01:37

Approaches that dovetail nicely, frankly, because ironically, it appears and interestingly, it appears that the double teaming is heading to be what looks like a great success. I don’t want to count our chickens before they hatch, but it really is. I’m very cautiously optimistic. Association’s comprehensive lawsuit goes at more of the sensitive places and goes at other challenges in this atrocious anti-civil rights law by Murphy. Other very bad provisions are in there throughout the law, not just the sensitive places. So, it’s really poised to do a major, a major slice and dice of that law. The two punches, the double punch from both organizations, the jab and the uppercut, the successful boom and an uppercut, boom. It really looks like it’s going to do tremendous damage to the law, and just knock it out. And that’s what all of us want to see. So, it’s very exciting, and Thursday, are the arguments on the TRO from the Association’s litigation. We should see some excellent things there. I wanted to mention that because when you’re listening to the show, you can look forward to catching that event. Then the next show, we’ll be discussing if there was an outcome by then. If Judge Bumb has made a determination and what that determination will be.

Evan Nappen 03:35

Additionally, we’ve been experiencing some anti-gun activities from the Fed side and that includes Biden’s pistol brace ban. I want to talk to you later in the show about what you need to know about the Biden pistol brace ban and their criminalization of oh, about 40 million or so gun owners in the United Page – 2 – of 8

States. That impact is particularly important if you’re in New Jersey because of the conflict that it puts you in, and there’s steps that you need to know to take. Let me tell you, though, one of the things that really occurred to me this week, even though all this interesting news, shall we say is happening with various attacks on our rights and freedoms. But remember, the current laws that are in the books are also enforced, and these laws that get enforced are often enforced above and beyond any measure of sanity, any measure of understanding. I get calls from folks every day that are facing charges. But this one story that I’m going to tell you now that individual that contacted me, just made me say, I have to talk about this on the show, because every once in a while, there’s something that’s so ridiculous that it’s beyond the normal, ridiculous. When it’s beyond the normal, ridiculous, I just know that my listeners have got to hear about it. Because it just hits you like what? You got to be kidding me, and it is the best.

Evan Nappen 05:33

One of the things that I always find entertaining is the lies the police tell. I mean, some of them are just the biggest whoppers and they’re just hilarity. Now, I know they don’t mean to be hilarious, and I know it can have serious consequences, these lies. But, you know, some of them are just where do they even come up with it. I don’t even know. I mean, some are just outstanding. So, a new police lie came to my attention that I’d never heard before that goes in the record books. It involves a fellow who ended up getting charged with possession of hollow nose ammunition in New Jersey. Now the thing is, New Jersey, as you probably know, prohibits hollow point or hollow nose ammunition except within narrow exemptions. You can have it from the place of purchase and have it at your home. You can have it at the target range, and you can have it while hunting, if appropriate for hunting. But if you have those outside those exemptions, then it’s a felony level offense – 18 months in state prison for each bullet, arguably, if you possess them outside exemptions. Now remember our whole system is exemption-based anyway. Possession of handguns, you have the exemptions. Long arms, the exemptions. It’s only if you have a carry license was the handgun no longer restricted by exemptions. If you had a Firearms ID Card, then you no longer were limited by exemptions. Then this A4769 bill gutted those licenses, so that we’re back to being strictly exemption reliant. But as the litigation proceeds, we’re removing that strict exemption reliance again. Meaning that you have to only be in those narrow exemptions that allow for possession in the home, possession at a target range, possession at your place of business, that’s property owned or possessed by you, etc. Narrow exemptions.

Evan Nappen 07:53

So, anyway, this individual had hollow nose in his home, in his home. I get false arrests all the time, folks. I mean, it’s part of this gun law that the politicians pass. These knee jerk emotional things They don’t even know what they’re doing. Then the word is out that somehow it’s prohibited, but they don’t even know what they are and how it works. No one ever teaches the officers the actual law and how it works. I see these false arrests because they don’t know the exemptions. They don’t realize the exemptions. And then of course, their egos are so fragile that if you point out such an exemption well, they don’t want to hear what you have to say. Unless you’re a lawyer. Unless you’re me. Unless you’re on motion. Unless it’s in front of the judge and now they’re on the witness stand and I’m cross examining them. Then they look like a giant a hole because they didn’t pay attention to begin with. But before that gets there, there’s other things that they do. So, here I saw this in action or heard this great story. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 08:58

Here this individual is charged that he had hollow nose in his home, and as most of you know, you should know, that hollow nose ammunition in your home is legal. It’s legal under the exemptions. You can even have it in your gun in your home, and it’s legal under the exemptions. If you’re justified in using deadly force in your home, you can use the hollow nose ammunition in your home in self-defense. If you’re justified in using the deadly force your fine, the hollow nose is fine. Because you’re exempt, you’re in your home. But this officer decided for whatever reason, he is going to charge this guy with hollow nose and says come on down and pick up the summons for hollow nose ammunition. But this fellow checks out the law, you know, checks it out. It’s not hard to find out if you look at my book on gun law, I explain it. Go online and see certain reliable resources that they’ll tell you. Even the State Police website will explain about hollow nose in your home, it’s legal. So, he looked at this and it’s in his home.

Evan Nappen 10:11

So he’s not represented by me or anything at this time. He just goes to the officer to pick up the summons, and he says to the officer, look, you’re charging me with unlawful possession of hollow point ammunition. And it was in my home. He says, Yeah, it was. He agrees. Well, that’s exempt. I’m exempt. I’m allowed to have hollow nose ammunition in my home. Why are you charging me? Ready for this, folks? Here’s the officer’s answer to why he was charging him. Oh, well, that’s because of the size of the cavity. The size of the cavity? What is that the cavity in the eye of the officer’s ass? I mean, what is it? The cavity inside his head where his brain should be? I mean, what is the size of the cavity? There’s nothing in the law about the size of the cavity. The hollow nose could be an inside out salad bowl, or the size of a pinprick? It doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. This quote “size of the cavity” has nothing whatsoever to do with whether you are lawfully in possession of hollow nose ammunition or not. Doesn’t matter. Oh, no. It’s the size of the cavity. Oh, I’m sorry, do you know what the legal term for that is? It’s called bullshit. That’s what the legal term for that is. It’s a legal term we use. Look it up in Black’s Law Dictionary. It has a special application. It’s called “bullshit” when cops make up laws when they’re caught falsely charging an individual. It’s right there in the definition in Black’s. You’ll find it. It’s incredible.

Evan Nappen 12:07

Yet now this guy has to deal with a Fourth Degree felony level offense. He’s facing 18 months in state prison on a charge that he is absolutely not guilty of it. He even pointed it out to the officer and instead he gets “size of the cavity” as to why he’s being charged. I swear. It’s like New Jersey, not only will you get falsely arrested. But laws just get like factors and logic made up as we go along. To justify the abuse heaped on a law-abiding gun owner. I mean, God forbid the officer says what do you mean in your home? Maybe you didn’t realize that? I mean, check that out. Let me check that, sir, and he would find out it’s true. And then oh, no, no, we can’t do that. The ego is on the line. Oh, police don’t make mistakes. We wouldn’t falsely charge him. And now, guess what you’ve done? You’ve compounded it by not fixing it in time. Because now the guy’s got more, more of an argument to make about how he was treated and what happened to him. More of a statement, more of a sympathy factor for not just being falsely charged but then being lied to with such absolute garbage found nowhere.

Evan Nappen 13:36 Page – 4 – of 8

And let me just tell you, part of the problem is because the police are trained to lie. They’re allowed to lie. Look, I’m not anti- police. Don’t get me wrong. I represent police. Plenty of police. New Jersey, as I’ve said, eats their own when it comes to guns and cops and all thatnot a problem. I’m totally for law enforcement, and I want to see the bad guys put away. But I’m talking about good guys. Many, many times officers are just awesome. They recognize a law-abiding gun owner, and they bend over backwards to help the poor guy. And instead of doing with this ding dong did, make up crap about why he’s being falsely charged. They bend over backwards not to mess with, and I respect those guys. Those guys are peace officers. They take their job seriously and are trying to focus on who the real problem is. But not these others that just lie and do this stuff. Unfortunately, lying is part of the training. Because by lying you can often get information and things and it’s part of the Interrogation Process. Police are allowed to lie to you to get information. You’re not allowed to lie to the police, however. If you lie to the police, that’s a crime. It’s not a crime for the police to lie to you. They’re doing it in their investigatory capacity, etc. It’s not a problem. So, part of the culture there is fostering lying to get to what is, arguably, the good ends of catching bad guys.

Evan Nappen 15:13

But I think sometimes that it goes to their head, and they’re not distinguishing when they shouldn’t be lying and when they should be truthing. Looking at actual facts that are brought before them as in this case, which apparently did not matter one bit. And that’s how we ended up with award-winning statements, like the “size of the cavity”. When charging somebody with a hollow nose in New Jersey, in which it’s a factor that is utterly and completely, legally irrelevant. When we come back, I have some more important information that may save your life.

Speaker 3 16:00

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:14

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:21

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. This is Evan Nappen. I am very thankful to be here able to speak to all of you today even though I’m fighting some stuffy nose as you can hear. I still want to get this information out. See gun rights and liberty flourish. These are the glorious times of a fight, glorious fight Page – 5 – of 8

that we’re in, and we’re doing well. So, stay optimistic. Truth is on our side. I have also been fortunate to get sponsored by the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, and it is an organization that I truly believe in. I am proud to serve the Board and the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. You need to be a member of anjrpc.org. It is the NRA affiliate of New Jersey, the state affiliate. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton, and they’re litigating these issues for us. The atrocious anti-civil rights bill by Murphy. The assault firearm law challenge. The large capacity magazine challenge. They’re also filing Amicus, meaning friend of the court, briefs, such as on the MU case. That’s our firm’s case. Evan Nappen. EvanNappen.com, our law firm there. We have a case challenging the constitutionality of so-called Public Health, Safety, Welfare denial. These are all very important issues that are going to affect 1000s and 1000s of New Jerseyans. The Association is there defending your rights in New Jersey, focused in really the hardest, toughest most anti-gun state in the country, and you need to be part of this group. So that together we have the power to fight and to continue in our quest to save our freedoms, not just for ourselves, but for our kids and our grandkids. They’ll look back and thank us. I know that they will. I mean that. So join the Association, anjrpc.org .

Evan Nappen 17:35

I love getting letters to the show, and they come in as ask Evan letters. I’ve gotten some important letters here with some important questions. I wish I could read everybody’s letter. But we don’t have time to do that. But I do have a handful here, that I think would be very helpful. So, this one’s from David. He says regarding NJ carry law and insurance. I listened to Episode 116 on where I can carry. Thank you for covering that topic in great detail. It was very helpful as I completely stopped carrying once the Bruen Buster bill was passed, a little progress has been made. There’s still one big issue as I see it. That’s the requirement to have insurance. As far as I know, we cannot buy insurance in New Jersey. I’ve tried several insurances, but they don’t insure in New Jersey. How can we carry legally anywhere, even in the do not enforce areas you mentioned if we are required to have insurance, but cannot buy it? Regardless, David.

Evan Nappen 21:20

David raises an excellent issue, and he’s correct. The problem with the liability insurance requirement that’s found in the anti-civil rights bill is that no insurance company can actually write the insurance that it demands. Because the insurance companies are currently taking a position that insurance requires them to insure intentional acts. Insurance companies don’t insure intentional acts, they insure negligence, things like that – not intentional acts. What makes it even more ironic is that originally Murphy signed an executive order banning insurance for gun owners. Banning what he pejoratively called Murder Insurance, and that closed down a number of the providers of insurance to folks that had wanted to have legal protection, should they get sued regarding using their gun. Now the funny thing is none of the insurance programs that existed, “insured for murder”. They did not insure for intentional acts. It was always to provide legal defense, if you were charged and needed to be represented in terms of self-defense, and to provide services according to that, but not covering, “murder insurance”. The ironic thing here is that Murphy signed the bill, the anti-civil rights bill A4769 that the insurance companies now view requires them to insure intentional acts. In other words, intentional things like murder. So, in other words, Murphy signs a bill mandating that gun owners literally get “murder insurance”, something that didn’t exist before and doesn’t exist now. Unless the insurance companies or the folks there work it out with the Insurance Commission in the state of New Jersey, so that there is Page – 6 – of 8

some product that satisfies this and that has the correct exclusions, we’re not going to see such insurance.

Evan Nappen 23:38

Now the good news is that the requirement for the insurance does not take place until the second, I think, of July. July 2 is when you actually need it. So, that part hasn’t kicked in at the moment, but it will be by the beginning of July. But part of the Association’s lawsuit that we talked about is challenging the requirement to have insurance, and I think there’s excellent constitutional arguments there to be made to stop the requirement of insurance. And that’s because the constitutional right is something that you cannot mandate insurance before you exercise it. Do you think it would be right to mandate insurance? New Jersey requires $300,000 liability for exercising your Second Amendment right. Should we require $300,000 liability before anybody publishes a newspaper article? Should we require that every newspaper reporter and TV news anchor have at least a $300,000 insurance policy? They would have to show that card and have it on them at all times by the way while they’re exercising their First Amendment right. Should we have a $300,000 liability for anyone who wants to observe any religious belief in a house of worship or to stop and pray or to believe in whatever God they want to believe it to in order before you do anything religion wise? Do you need a $300,000 insurance before you exercise your First Amendment right to religion? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think those things are going to fly, and it won’t fly for our Second Amendment rights, either.

Evan Nappen 25:34

Because the right to keep and bear arms is the equivalent of the First Amendment right to free speech and the right to free exercise of religion and the right to Sixth Amendment right to cross examine witnesses. All that’s in the Bruen decision in the same paragraph when Thomas describes it. He uses these very examples of the First Amendment, Second Amendment, Sixth Amendment. All together as those rights. So, the insurance requirement hasn’t taken place yet, even though it’s slated to. I’m cautiously optimistic that it will be killed by the court. Until then, there is no insurance company that I’m aware of that has yet to provide a product that would satisfy that requirement.

Evan Nappen 26:29

I have another question here that came in from SIM regarding carrying guns, not on a court order. I’d like to start off by saying I’m a big fan of the show and your work. The question I have is about whether my carry permit applies to all guns that I own. I received my carry permit before the carry killer law was passed and signed. I am restricted by my court order to the guns I qualified with. I heard with the new law and with courts out of process, the court is out of the process, that one permit is good for all guns. Is this true? A lot of people would benefit from this clarification. Thanks in advance.

Evan Nappen 27:16

It is true that under the carry killer law, the anti-civil rights bill, it does state that one handgun permit is good for all handguns someone has. But it also states that under our current law, that one handgun permit is good for all handguns one may own. The language that says that one permit is good for all is right in the very first paragraph. Paragraph a. Right off the bat. Very first paragraph under NJS 2C:58-4, which is the licensing statute for a permit to carry a handgun. The very first paragraph of that statute says that one handgun permit is good for all the handguns that you have. Now even though it says that Page – 7 – of 8

judges, again, the judges who took away our gun rights to begin with under carry by creating the virtually impossible to achieve standard of “justifiable need”. These same judges create restrictions by taking advantage of the supposed permission for judges to restrict carry. Even though they’re not actually authorized to restrict the number of guns. It doesn’t say that in there. But nonetheless, they abuse their authority, and they have been creating orders when they issue the permit, some of the judges, mandating that you carry only certain guns that you qualified with. Some of that is a blending over from policy for the RPO, the Retired Police Officer card that the state police had put a different standard on for what guns they can and can’t carry. So, some of it’s a blending, and some of it is abuse by judges.

Evan Nappen 29:15

But whatever the issue that led to your getting an order that restricted you, you still have an order that restricts you. I’ve gotten calls on it, and here’s the bottom line. Yeah, I know what the new law says, and I know what the old law says. But you are bound by a Court Order if you have a judge issued permit, and that court order, orders you within certain bounds and to do certain things, etc. You must follow the Court Order. Because if you break the Court Order, you can be found in contempt of court. In contempt of the order. You could lose your license, and you could even be prosecuted for it. Contempt of court and maybe even a gun charge with a claim that your license wasn’t valid, because you didn’t follow the court order. If you have a Court Order and you don’t like its terms, then like any other court order, you need to go back to the court and try to get the court to change it. Maybe the court will hear you and change it. Maybe they won’t. I don’t know. But the good news is on your renewal, you won’t have to deal with a judge anymore. Judges have been removed from the carry licensing process. A huge win for gun owners. Huge. Even though the rest of the bill is so terrible. With the judges gone, there are no court orders that can issue restricting individual licensees anymore.

Evan Nappen 30:59

So, your next carry permit will be a straight carry permit. It’s good for all handguns you have, and there’s no court order that can go along with it because it’s not done by a court anymore. The good news is that the judges are out. And if you currently have some half-assed permit that’s jamming away your rights, that shouldn’t be doing it, then you need to try to get a change by the court itself. Because otherwise you risk contempt and being in violation of the order that is specifically on you and addressed to your permit. So, be aware of that and take the steps needed to change it. Or if you’re not going to change it, then you’ve got to live with it. Live with it until your renewal. But, like I said, the good news is on your renewal, no more judges. Yeah!

Evan Nappen 32:04

Okay, let’s take a look here. We have one more quick one. Tell you what, I think we’re going to have to wait to get into much more detail. But let me just say I’ve gotten a lot of questions about the pistol brace rule. It’s been virtually, officially promulgated. It still technically, technically, has to get published. But it’s going to be. Probably maybe by the time you hear this show. By the next show, or maybe one after, we’re going to have all the details with specific actions. What New Jerseyans need to do. Updates on the litigation, and how to deal with the pistol brace issue and its effect on all of us. I don’t have time right now to get into it. Plus, there’s more information coming our way. So, just be aware that pistol brace deal is hit. They did waive the tax apparently. So, that’s good, but there’s so much garbage in it Page – 8 – of 8

as you could well expect. The choices that you’re going to want to make on this are going to take a lot more consideration. We’ll go through them in detail later in future podcasts. So, make sure you subscribe to Gun Lawyer. Make sure you are a member of our state Association because they’re sending out updates on all these things. Many times, I help to write them. So, you’re getting the emails right from the Association as to action that needs to be taken. So, join anjrpc.org. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 34:03

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E117_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 116-NJ Where Can I Carry, Where Not?Also Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 116SUMMARY KEYWORDS

places, firearm, gun, new jersey, prohibited, law, carry, facility, sensitive, gun rights, permit, premises, casino, conduct, fight, lawyer, state, gun laws, anti, litigation

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:21

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Well, we’ve had a lot of excitement. We’ve had our court cases, rolling like tanks, into the federal court. I’m happy to say that at the last word here, we have gotten a Temporary Restraining Order. It is extremely exciting to see the Second Amendment come alive and the Bruen decision have its effect. The court actually granted restraints, right out of the box, on certain restrictions that are in the atrocious new Carry Killer, anti-civil rights law signed by Murphy. Because of how complex it is and how crazy these times are, I’ve been getting a lot of questions. Evan, where can I carry? What are the restrictions? What is the story? What did the lawsuit disable at the moment and put injunctions on so that what’s legal, what isn’t legal. That’s what I’m dedicating this show to.

Evan Nappen 01:39

I want to thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs (ANJRPC), anjrpc.org. They are the premier gun rights group in New Jersey. They have litigation that is currently in federal court as well. They just won a victory by having their case consolidated with the other gun rights group case, in front of Judge (Renee Marie) Bumb (United States District Judge). Judge Bumb is a fantastic judge who really gets it, who really understands the Second Amendment, and who everyone is impressed with. Everyone in the pro-gun community, pro Second Amendment community is singing her praises. I see online that she is being called Saint Bumb, and I can fully get behind calling her Saint Bumb. Because it’s so refreshing and wonderful to see a judge that understands the Constitution, understands our rights, and is making our rights come alive to stop the ridiculous, absurd, dangerous, and treacherous laws that New Jersey has put upon its law-abiding gun owners.

Evan Nappen 03:01

So, looking at the most recent and up-to-date situation regarding where can you carry and where can you not carry. Well, this is what is called “sensitive places”. What the antis did was they took some language out of the Bruen decision where it talked about restrictions could be placed on certain sensitive places. But those sensitive places were very narrowly defined. They were traditional sensitive places. They were places that historically, there had been prohibitions on and made it clear that those places still would remain as being able to bar firearms from such places. But the anti-gunners saw that as some kind of opening that didn’t exist and decided to ban everything and anything they could come up with so that it would gut completely the utilitarian value at all of having a permit to carry. That was Page – 2 – of 8

the strategy. The strategy is to destroy carry by exploiting so-called “sensitive places”. So, New Jersey followed with this plan, probably came up with some think tank, Giffords or Bloomturd, or one of these anti-gunners. Here’s, a great idea. Let’s try to take this to the absolute level of absurdity and cause problems and try to cobble the utilitarian purpose and value of having a carry license.

Evan Nappen 04:42

Well, it’s not working. It’s not working, and the cases are filed. We’re winning, and we’ve just begun even in the victories. This should end up eventually just a complete and total victory for us, but for now, what are the places that you’re prohibited? What are the places that you’re restricted? You need to know them, and you need to understand them. Because this is the battleground, as we speak, on our rights, as to where we can have firearms. And it’s important, extremely important, to know that the sensitive places that we’re going to be discussing apply not only to handguns, not only to your carry permit, your permit to carry a handgun under New Jersey law. Not only to that, but it also applies to your long arms. It applies to rifles and shotguns that you are transporting with a Firearms ID Card, unloaded in your vehicle. It even applies to those. So, the old days when you would have much more freedom to transport your unloaded rifles and shotguns, as we’ve discussed on Gun Lawyer under the rifle and shotgun trap, you now have prohibitions that apply in the same way because they use the word “firearm”.

Evan Nappen 06:06

So, what we’re going to do today is we’re going to review the 25 “sensitive places”. I’m going to explain to you as best I can as to what can be explained on them, and I’m going to show you which ones have been enjoined. What has been put a stop to the enforcement by the court so that you are not at this moment, affected by those. We want them to stay dead. We want them to stay enjoined. We want them to stay declared unconstitutional. Let’s take a look at these places. What the law specifically says is, other than a brief incidental entry into properties, or lawfully carrying a firearm pursuant to the exemptions of NJS 2C:39-6. We’ve talked about those exemptions a lot. The following places, including in or upon any part of the building, grounds, or parking areas. What we’re going to review next includes these places and their buildings, their grounds, and parking areas.

Evan Nappen 07:20

What are these places? Well, number one, any place owned, leased or under the control of any state, county or municipal government, used for purposes of government administration, including but not limited to police stations. So, you can’t go up to your local police station with your unloaded rifle or shotgun in your car, in a case. Can’t do it. You can’t go to the police with your handgun and a carry permit, etc. This is still a “sensitive place”, a prohibited place. Two, a court room, a courthouse or any premises used to conduct court or judicial administrative proceedings, or functions. So, it’s not just a courthouse, and it’s not just a court room. But any premises used to conduct judicial or court administrative procedures or functions. It’s very broad. It’s very broad. We don’t know whether certain buildings are at some point being used for an administrative proceeding, because they’re having an administrative hearing, or they’re conducting some type of investigation, or there’s something going on that’s involving judicial or court administration. And if that premises, then that even includes the buildings, the grounds and the parking lot of such premises. There’s no way for you to even know whether that was going on or not. But you better not have your firearms in such a place. Page – 3 – of 8

Evan Nappen 08:54

Additionally, prohibited, number three, state, county or municipal correctional or juvenile justice facility, a jail and any place maintained by the government entity for detention of criminal suspects or offenders. Any place that is holding offenders for detention and juvenile justice facilities, municipal, any type of place like that, the building, the grounds, and the premises are all off limits. So, you better know where all those places are as you travel through New Jersey, and not end up in a parking lot or on the grounds of any such place. A state-contracted Halfway House. So, that’s a private place that the state has contracted to be a Halfway House. How do you know that it’s a Halfway House? Do they have big signs “State Contracted Halfway House? No. They don’t hang out big signs and say it’s a halfway house. They keep it low key, but you better know. Because if you don’t, you’re in violation of sensitive places.

Evan Nappen 10:05

A location used as a polling place during the conduct of an election, places used for storage, and for tabulation of ballots and for the conducting of election fraud. No, I’m just kidding about that, about the election fraud part. I added that. It doesn’t say that. But it does prohibit conduct of elections and places used for storage and tabulation of ballots. Again, a prohibited place. Any place within 100 feet of a place where a public gathering, a demonstration, or an event is held for which a government permit is required during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration, or event. So, how do you know whether any given public gathering has a government permit for, or for which one was required? And that you’re somehow, there’s a march going on with the government and you’re in your vehicle, you have a firearm, and you’re now in violation. How do you know that a permit was required or wasn’t required or that a public gathering was even going to take place? Doesn’t matter. The burden is on you to know because if you don’t, you’re looking at a serious, felony level, criminal violation for violating sensitive places.

Evan Nappen 11:25

Seven, a school, college, university or other educational institution, and on any school bus. So again, you better know every school, every college or university or educational institution. You can’t be going there for events, for sporting events or anything. If you’re going on school property and you have your gun, you’re in violation. And it’s a problem. Eight, a childcare facility, including a daycare center. There are plenty of daycare and childcare facilities. There’s no doubt. They don’t always have a sign. Some are private, and you don’t know. Well, you better know, because if you’re parking in that parking lot. If you’re on those premises, if you happen to go there, visiting a friend, whatever, boom, you’ve got a problem. Same with nursery schools, preschools, zoos, or summer camp. Well, I guess they all go together. I guess anyone that works in a nursery school, a preschool or a summer camp would put a zoo in the same category as those three. But I don’t know. Our legislators saw fit to do that. So, make sure again, those places, buildings, grounds, and they’re all thrown into number nine of sensitive places in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 12:35

Ten, a park, a beach, a recreational facility or area or playground owned or controlled by a state, county or local government unit or any part of such place, which is designated as a gun free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety. How nice. So, any of these places, if Page – 4 – of 8

they’re designated a gun free zone, which we know better as a victim disarmament zone by the government authority, then you are prohibited from going to that place. Number 11. Youth sporting events, during and immediately preceding and following the conduct of the event, except that this procedure should not apply to participants of a youth sporting event in which firearm shooting is a competition. Oh, isn’t that nice? At least they didn’t ban guns from youth firearm shooting competitions. That would really suck to have to do a firearm shooting competition without a firearm. But even worse, how are we going to know whether there was such an event? How do we know what’s preceding or following? Now we have to keep track of every youth sporting event, anywhere we travel in New Jersey to make sure that we’re not there during or immediately preceding such event. How are we going to know this? I don’t know. But you better know it or you’re in trouble. Number 12, a publicly owned or leased library or museum. I’m happy to say that a publicly owned or leased library or museum has been enjoined by the TRO and is currently not enforceable. So, you can take your gun to the library or a museum. It’s not a prohibited place under Section 12, at the time of this broadcast. When we come back, we’re going to review the rest of these amazing and exciting prohibited places.

Speaker 3 14:52

For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fierce courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best- selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:06

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:21

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. This is Evan Nappen, and I want to remind you all about our great sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Every one of you should be a member of ANJRPC, anjrpc.org . Go there and join. They are on the frontlines battling for our gun rights. They have a full-time paid lobbyist in Trenton. When you belong as a member, not only are you part of the fight, and you can be proud to be part of the fight, but also you get these email alerts that are up to the moment, immediate alerts, that tell you exactly what’s going on, and what legislation is immediately a threat. Things that threaten our rights. They give you actions that you can take immediately by simply pushing buttons and notifying legislators of our position. They keep us informed and in the fight. They’re currently on the forefront of the litigation against the Carry Killer, anti-civil rights bill. They are in litigation on New Jersey’s magazine ban. They’re in litigation on New Jersey’s assault firearm ban. They’re in litigation on my case, the “MU” case. They joined as an amicus in “MU”, challenging the Page – 5 – of 8

constitutionality of denying for so-called public health, safety, welfare. The Association is your active main force in fighting for your gun rights. So, please make sure you’re a member. It’s the least you can do if you believe in the Second Amendment and are in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 18:06

Looking back here at the sensitive places. They have number 13. Ready for this one, folks? A shelter for the homeless, emergency shelter for the homeless, basic center shelter program, shelter for homeless or runaway youth, Children’s Shelter, childcare shelter, shelter for victims of domestic violence, or any shelter licensed under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission or the Department of Children and Families. Now you tell me, how do we know where every one of these shelters is located all through New Jersey? But we have to know. We have to know which parking lot may be attached to one of these homeless shelters or runaway youth shelters. We have to know any building or grounds. All that’s on us to somehow recognize where these things exist with no roadmap given, with no app on this. Hey, there’s a great. Maybe we need a New Jersey sensitive places app that immediately tells you if you’re nearing some prohibited place anywhere in the state. I don’t know but there it is. You better know it. Be careful.

Evan Nappen 19:29

Number 14, a community residence for persons with developmental disabilities, head injuries, terminal illnesses or any other residential setting licensed by the Department of Human Services or the Department of Health. Great. We’re supposed to know where all those are, too. Just add it to the list. Do you know the developmental disabilities, head injuries, community residence places? Do you know about that place? I sure don’t. But I guess there is one somewhere, maybe lots, who knows? Maybe there’s one right now where I am? I don’t know. Maybe I’m in one. Maybe I’m in one right now, and I don’t even know it. I can probably use it. But the fact is, there it is. And this makes you want to go into one of those, just by trying to figure out the law.

Evan Nappen 20:20

Under 15, they have a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served and any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. Good news – that has been enjoined, that has been TROed. You can be in a bar or restaurant that serves alcohol with your firearm. So, that one is currently enjoined, which is really good, because I think we all need a drink trying to get through this stuff. But you better not be using marijuana, because under 16, a Class Five cannabis retailer or medical cannabis dispensary, including any consumption areas licensed or permitted by the cannabis regulatory commission. You cannot have your gun at the parking lot, premises, or in the building of any marijuana dispensary. In other words, the state government does not want you interfering with their illegal sale of drugs. Because cannabis is still prohibited federally, and New Jersey is one of the largest drug dealers in the United States, breaking federal law selling marijuana. The last thing they want is for you to exercise your Second Amendment right inside any of their facilities that are dealing drugs counter to federal law. So, beware of that.

Evan Nappen 21:45

Seventeen. A privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility, including but not limited to, a theater, stadium, a museum, an arena, a racetrack or other place where performances, concerts, Page – 6 – of 8

exhibits, games, or contests are held. That my friends has been TROed. That has been enjoined and is currently not enforceable. So, yeah, you can have your gun at the movies. And you can have your gun in these entertainment facilities. That prohibition has been enjoined. Then you are prohibited under 18 from being in a casino or related facilities, including but not limited to, appurtenant hotels (the word appurtenant hotels), retail premises, restaurant and bar facilities, and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property. Which means if you’re staying at a hotel casino, in Atlantic City, you cannot have your gun. You cannot have your gun at the casino or even in the hotel room. Even in restaurants and bars there. Even though restaurants and bars that are not in casinos have been enjoined. Not the casino and entertainment and recreational venues located within the casino property. So, any of those mall settings, other things that the casinos run. All those areas are still prohibited. And buildings and grounds. Even for parking. Remember, even parking at the casino parking lot. You have got a problem. You cannot have your gun anywhere. If it attaches and goes near the boardwalk, who knows how far that’s extending on the boardwalk casino. Do they own the boardwalk? Or does the town own it? Or there’s a city own it? I don’t know. These are all questions, and yet we better know. You’re going to have to figure it out. It’s on you to know.

Evan Nappen 23:56

Nineteen. A plant or operation that produces, converts, distributes, or stores energy or converts one form of energy to another. So, if you have a solar panel or you see a solar panel, run and hide if you have a gun because that’s converting energy. It does not say what the heck this is talking about. But whatever a plant or operation. An operation that produces or converts. Don’t cars convert gas into energy themselves, fuel. I mean what is it? This is so broad, so stupid, and so vague. But there you go. Don’t have your gun there, whatever this place is. Twenty. An airport or public transportation hub. Now think about that. How are we traveling with our guns? I guess we’re going to have to solely rely on Title 18 926 A of the federal law that preempts state prohibition on transport of firearms. You had better be strictly within the federal transport if you’re going to attempt to transport at these places. I would be very careful doing it because those are the places where they will X ray and check bags. When they find guns, the police get involved. Next thing you know, this is being put against you and you’re charged under this. I get plenty of airport cases and public transportation cases. This is only going to make that even worse. So, watch out.

Evan Nappen 25:21

Twenty-one. Here’s a good one. They just went to town on this one. You cannot have your firearm at a healthcare facility, including but not limited to, a General Hospital, a special hospital, psychiatric hospital, a public health center, a diagnostic center, a treatment center, a rehabilitation center, and extended care facility, a skilled nursing home (as opposed to what an unskilled nursing home I don’t know), a nursing home, intermediate care facility, tuberculosis hospital, a chronic disease hospital and maternity hospital and outpatient clinic, a dispensary, Assisted Living Center, a home health care agency, a residential treatment facility, a residential healthcare facility, a medical office, or an ambulatory care facility. All those places. All their parking lots. All their buildings. All their grounds, wherever they may be. Whatever they are, you’re prohibited, and you better know it. Amazing.

Evan Nappen 26:27 Page – 7 – of 8

Twenty-two. A facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services, Department of Children and Families, or Department of Health other than a health care facility that provides addiction or mental health treatment or support services. Twenty-three. A public location used for making motion picture or television images for theatrical, commercial or educational purposes during such time as the location is used for that purpose. New Jersey is all excited because Netflix is coming to Eatontown and has purchased property at Fort Monmouth so they can do filming and produce shows. However, I hope none of them are going to be using guns. No more gun shows because you cannot use or have it there. You know what I guess this law is? This law is most likely. This part is probably what is known as the Alec Baldwin law. That must be what inspired them to put that in there. That’s what I would guess.

Evan Nappen 27:32

Okay, here’s 24, and this was a doozy. Number 24. Private property, including but not limited to residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural, institutional, or undeveloped property unless the owner has provided express consent, or has posted a sign indicating that it is permissible to carry on the premises a concealed handgun with a valid lawfully issued permit under NJS 2C:58-4, and provided that nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to affect the authority to keep or carry a firearm established under subsection e. of 39-6. Now think about this, folks. This section thankfully has been enjoined, and is part of the TRO, but just imagine how this works. Where you would have to, you would only be allowed on any private property if there was an express sign saying, Carry Permitees Welcome. Imagine that all through New Jersey. Is that what we’re going to see? Carry permits welcome, bring your gun, come on down. And unless it said that, unless they were advertising openly that fact, you were otherwise prohibited. Luckily, that atrocity has been TROed and enjoined.

Evan Nappen 28:55

Finally, number 25. Just in case they missed something with their whole list of horribles. 25 says any other place in which the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by any statute or rule or regulation promulgated by a federal or state agency. So, all you need to know is every single rule or reg ever promulgated by a federal or state agency that had to do with firearm carrying. Good luck with that. That’s incorporated now into New Jersey’s law, so you can be charged with a crime in New Jersey. Those are all the so-called “sensitive places”. This is the anti-Second Amendment, anti-civil rights folks view of how to kill and limit and make useless a carry permit. You can see just how outrageous a system they put together here of these places, imposing knowledge that it would be a virtual impossibility for anyone to have a complete grasp of where you can actually carry it and not have a problem. As litigation continues, it’s vital that we knock this out and get it put in the trash can where this anti Second Amendment garbage belongs.

Evan Nappen 30:14

Now, there is another section in the law. It’s not under sensitive places, but it’s something that many people have concerns about. And that was the bill also prohibited transporting a firearm in the vehicle. What it said is that any person, other than a person carrying pursuant to subsection a., c., and l. of 2C:39-6, and that’s law enforcement and retired law enforcement, who’s otherwise authorized to carry or transport a firearm, notice not a handgun. So, if you had a Permit to Carry a Handgun or your Firearm Purchaser ID Card, shall not do so while in a vehicle in New Jersey. Unless, and then they say this, the handgun is unloaded and contained in a closed and securely fastened gun box or locked in the Page – 8 – of 8

trunk of a vehicle or in a gun case. So, what they prohibited was transport in a vehicle, and they made it so that particularly if you have a carry license on your handgun, particularly now, you could not have that loaded on your person in a vehicle. We were calling that and still do; we call that the “Carjacker Protection” law. They wanted to protect carjackers, of course. So, they didn’t get injured. They wanted law-abiding citizens to be victims of carjackers, violent attacks. So, they don’t want you armed in your vehicle to be able to defend yourself. That’s why they have this law in place. But that law has been enjoined. So, luckily, you can now transport with your carry permit your loaded handgun in a motor vehicle. That is currently enjoined under the TRO as well.

Evan Nappen 32:00

Hopefully, this gives you a better understanding of what we’re up against and what carry is, in terms of New Jersey’s treacherous gun laws, but we’re making progress. We’re knocking a lot of these things out. I’m sure we’re going to do tremendously better even as we get provision after provision declared unconstitutional. It’s taking time. It’s taking work. But these are the glorious times in a glorious fight, that we can win, so that our kids and our grandkids can look back and say, hey, we were the ones that fought it. We are the ones that got them freedom, and this is how we did it. This is what we were up against. But for now, I don’t want any of you to become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. I don’t want any of you to become a “law-abiding criminal”. This is what New Jersey does. So, be careful, be discreet. Remember to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Make sure you have your membership in place, so that you’re part of the fight. This is Evan Nappen, reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 33:23

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E116_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 115-Thousands Turned into Felons- FPICs VoidAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 115SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, new jersey, law, expungement, criminals, fight, lawyer, rights, gun, folks, crime, commitment, letter, subsection, gun laws, gun rights, license, firearms, affects, serial number

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:20

I’m attorney Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, first of all, I want to thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are a fantastic organization that are fighting for our rights as we speak. They’re involved in major litigation over these ridiculous laws that have been placed upon us in New Jersey. And that’s one of the things that I need to discuss today that is critically important. So many people are completely unaware of this, but you better know it, and if you are victimized by this, you’re going to need to take action.

Evan Nappen 01:08

New Jersey has effectively invalidated and made void 10s of 1000s of Firearm Purchaser Identification Cards, and it is a felony level offense, a Fourth-Degree crime, up to 18 months in state prison. That’s a year and a half, folks, for those that don’t do math in state prison now, if you fail to surrender your card, if you have been affected by this ridiculous change. This change is just a complete departure from what New Jersey has had for years and years and years. Let me explain to you what has happened. This was part of the atrocious Murphy anti-civil rights bill that passed, A4769, that also contained all the anti-carry provisions so that New Jersey tries to keep its law-abiding citizens as victims of violent crime and not defenders.

Evan Nappen 02:29

Well, baked into that cake was a surprise that you need to know. It not only changed the law with regard to carry to gut any utilitarian function that a carry permit had, but it also added a host of disqualifiers. Disqualifiers that fall under NJS 2C:58-3.c. That statute is important because it is the same standard for Handgun Purchase Permits, Firearms ID Cards, and Permits to Carry a Handgun. It is the listing of the specific reasons that one can be denied their right to keep and bear arms and be denied the right to have a license to acquire a firearm or to carry a firearm, etc. In these disqualifiers is a new disqualifier that modified, changed, amended, the old disqualifier, and it involves what is mental health.

Evan Nappen 03:52

Now, I’m going to explain exactly how this is done and what New Jersey did, but in order to understand that you need to understand how the old law worked and why so many people are affected by this. Thousands and thousands of people are going to be and immediately are affected by this and are at Page – 2 – of 7

risk of serious criminal charges. Originally, in New Jersey, if you ever had an involuntary mental health commitment or a voluntary mental health commitment, in other words, you checked yourself into a mental health facility to get help. Or if you had been mandated by a court to get mental health treatment in a mental health facility. Then New Jersey had a law that said you’re disqualified for having guns unless you produce proof, medical proof, a doctor’s letter, other medical proof, etc. from a psychiatrist or medical doctor, etc, that you’re not suffering from that particular disease or disability that would make you unsafe for the handling of firearms.

Evan Nappen 05:10

Thousands and thousands of folks did that very thing. Now, even in the old days, prior to this law being changed, individuals that did that were covered as far as New Jersey law was concerned. We’ve even discussed on the show that federal law didn’t really care about that. Federal law was only focused on folks that had involuntary commitments, and the only way you could restore your rights under federal law for an involuntary was by getting a mental health expungement. It wouldn’t matter if you had 100 doctors saying you’re okay. Federal law wouldn’t care. You need to have a mental health expungement. But Federal Law never, and still, to this day, they don’t care about voluntary commitments, only involuntary commitments, where you’re forced.

Evan Nappen 06:10

But New Jersey always cared about all commitments but gave the escape valve of simply getting proof from a doctor that you’re okay. Well, New Jersey just changed that law. It was signed into law on December 22, 2022. It’s A4769. It modified NJS 2C:58-3., specifically subsection c. where all the disabilities are, and added number 13, added number 13. Lucky 13 for the disqualifier. Let me read you exactly what it says. It says, and this is a preface. A handgun purchase permit or firearms purchaser identification card (or for that matter, by the way, any permit to carry a handgun, because they specifically referenced the statute) shall not be issued, and here it is under 13.

Evan Nappen 07:15

To any person who has previously been voluntarily admitted to inpatient treatment or involuntarily committed to inpatient or outpatient treatment, unless the court has expunged the person’s record. So, all the people who had gotten a Firearms ID Card before, who simply had a voluntary commitment to a mental health facility. By the way, you could have voluntarily committed yourself in for rehabilitation. That still counts. Or other mental health services where you had gotten your Firearms ID Card and still have it right now, because you supplied a doctor’s letter that said you were okay. That is no longer valid. The only way you can be legal for your ID card or carry permit or pistol purchase permit is if you received a mental health expungement, folks. A full-blooded, full-fledged expungement. Without that expungement and having had a voluntary commitment, you are disqualified to having your firearm license under New Jersey law as we speak. This affects thousands upon thousands of Firearm ID Card holders in New Jersey, and for that matter, outside of New Jersey. Because non-residents were also able to be issued and still are, a Firearm Purchaser ID cards. Better known as, what we call in the trade, FPICs. Your FPIC is now invalid.

Evan Nappen 09:25 Page – 3 – of 7

Do you know what the law says about invalid FPICs? Well, let me read you, in NJS 2C:58-3. You go down to subsection f. and a number of paragraphs down you’ll read this. “A firearm purchaser Identification card shall be void if the holder becomes subject to any of the disabilities set forth in subsection c. of the section,” (that now includes the new subsection 13 that I just read to you) “whereupon the card shall be returned within five days by the holder to the superintendent, who shall then advise the licensing authority.” In other words, within five days of Governor Murphy signing this bill on December 22, 2022, you were mandated by law to surrender your Firearms ID Card to the superintendent, meaning superintendent of the state police, who would then advise your local police of the surrender. Get a load of this folks. “Failure of the holder to return the firearm purchaser identification card to the superintendent within five days shall be an offense under subsection a. of N.J.S. 2C:39-10.” That offense is a criminal offense. A criminal charge of a Fourth-Degree crime. New Jersey doesn’t use the word felony. But crimes technically are the same in jurisdictions that talk about felonies as a felony, because it carries over one year jail. It carries 18 months in state prison. Therefore, you’re facing, for your failure to turn in the card, up to 18 months in state prison, being a convicted felon, becoming a certain person who is prohibited from firearm possession and being licensed.

Evan Nappen 11:42

New Jersey has created this. There’s no grandfathering. There was no time period to adjust. It took effect immediately this section. So, if any of you out there have a Firearm ID card that you have obtained because you supplied medical proof that you’re okay, that you’re fine, even though you had a voluntary commitment, your card is no longer valid. And your failure to turn it in is a felony level offense, folks. So, let me just tell you, that is a big risk out there. Those of you that listen to Gun Lawyer now know it. Those who don’t and maybe aren’t aware of this, well, I’ll tell you right now. If they reapply, let’s say to make a change of address or to get a new handgun purchase permit and this pops up, then they’re going to be in for a big surprise. A big surprise in terms of not only getting denied their license, but being held to account as to why they didn’t turn in their license and violated this criminal statute. And if they answer these questions wrong, thinking they’re okay when they’re not, then they could face falsification of the application charges. You can see all the ramifications that are going to flow from this. This is serious. It’s a huge problem. The only solution to restoring your rights is a mental health expungement. Now, as you know, I’m a practicing attorney, and I have my firm in Eatontown. It’s Evan F. Nappen Attorney at Law, and as a major component of our work, we do mental health expungements. You can check out my website at EvanNappen.com. Go to Expungements, and you can see about getting a mental health expungement if you need one.

Evan Nappen 13:44

That’s the only way under New Jersey law now to get your rights restored. If you’ve had a voluntary commitment, or an involuntary commitment, and an involuntary commitment includes inpatient or outpatient treatment, if it was involuntary. Of course, the voluntary commitment, these are very far-reaching laws. I’m just thinking about how many thousands and thousands of persons have been issued these cards that now are subject to this ridiculous disability and prohibition and have been given no notice, no warning, no grandfathering, no period of time to comply. Nothing. So, beware. If you have an issue with this, call me at the office, go to my website at EvanNappen.com Get in contact with me, Page – 4 – of 7

and we can figure out what we need to do to help you and change your particular circumstances from this threat that is against your rights and your freedom here. It’s really a shame. But beware.

Evan Nappen 15:00

If you know anybody that is affected by this, make sure they’re aware, because this is just going to cause a ton of grief for honest, law-abiding citizens. Because that’s all New Jersey gun laws ever focus on. It never does anything about crime, of course. It’s just going to be law-abiding, licensed citizens. This is truly focused on licensed citizens and turning them into criminals. Those that had originally obtained this license are now turned into disqualified persons, and then subject to the crime of omission for failing to turn it in. By the way, your failure to turn it in being a crime in and of itself, can then be a basis to seize your guns. Because not only are you disqualified for your license, but getting a felony level criminal charge, also gets your gun seized while you’re at it. So, New Jersey has really stacked it here. Beware. When we come back, I have a number of really interesting letters that I know you’re going to enjoy hearing about because I sure enjoyed reading them.

Speaker 3 15:08

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 17:35

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 17:50

Hey, okay, Evan Nappen here back on Gun Lawyer. I really appreciate all my listeners. Remember to subscribe to Gun Lawyer. You can get it anywhere you get your podcasts. This way you get the inside information. You get to know the stuff they’re not telling you and preempt the potential problems that not knowing will cause. Let everybody know about the show because you’d be surprised. Just this week, a person called. Again, they had listened to the show, and they were going to have a disaster upon them. Because they knew, I was able to help them and shut down what was guaranteed to be a huge mess, a huge mess. That always makes me so happy to know that we’re able to save people from falling into these traps that New Jersey sets for law-abiding citizens. They don’t worry about crime, of course, and criminals. They’re on the run there. Do whatever they want. That’s all fine. Let them in, let them out. But gun owners are the ones targeted and honest citizens. They’re the ones I want to protect, and that’s why I have a unique practice in a way. I only defend law-abiding criminals, you see, Page – 5 – of 7

and that’s what happens when you’re a Gun Lawyer in New Jersey. But I’m proud to do it, and I’m happy to help all you good people out.

Evan Nappen 19:28

One of the other things about helping folks out is sponsoring this show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are the NRA affiliate for New Jersey, and they’re the top gun rights organization in New Jersey. Every one of my listeners should be a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. If you care about your gun rights, you need to do this. They’re the ones that have a full-time lobbyist down at Trenton, keeping us on top of all this nonsense going on and being able to keep us in the fight. Look, we’re in a desperate, tough fight. I know that. We have politics against us. We are the underdogs. But it’s the American tradition, right? We root for the underdog. So, the best way to root for ourselves here, the best way to fight despite the odds, and we will win because truth is on our side. You know that. We will win. It’s by unifying and having a great organization like ANJRPC, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org. and get your membership. Get those alerts, get the newsletter, get your voice heard and be part of an organization. They’re at the forefront of the litigation against these atrocities that we discuss here. Litigating against Murphy’s anti-civil rights bill, against the magazine ban, against the assault weapon ban, etc. In courts now, using the Bruen decision and other case law to get our rights back. I know, ultimately, we’re going to be successful, but we can only be successful with individuals like yourself, being part of the team, and helping. So, go to anjrpc.org. and join today, if you’re not already a member.

Evan Nappen 21:33

Let me also tell you, I get great letters. And man, I wish I could read every letter that I get, really. You folks are wonderful, and your letters are great. I do read every letter that is sent to me, but we only have a limited amount of time, of course. But I do want to read this letter and some others that just hit me as really important and very significant in demonstrating exactly what we’re talking about here. About how these laws affect the law-abiding and not the criminal. So, I have this letter. It’s says, Evan, you discussed this on Episode 95 after receiving my letter about this NSN firearm. I thought you’d like to see the letter that I just sent to the entire legislature asking them to correct this unintended consequence. Keep up the fight! Regards, Bobby.

Evan Nappen 22:35

Bobby really, really did a magnificent job here., and I just want to share his letter because it’s more than just a political statement to a legislature to do the right thing. It is an explanation of actual harm caused by their actions. Listen to what Bobby wrote. Dear Senators and Assemblypersons. I’m writing to seek your assistance in correcting the unintended consequences of legislation you enacted earlier this year that was made effective on July 5, 2022. Specifically, I’m referring to N.J.S. 2C:39-9(n) which states: (emphasis added) “n. Transporting a manufactured firearm without a serial number. In addition to any other criminal penalties provided under law, a person who transports, ships, sells, or disposes of a firearm manufactured or otherwise assembled using a firearm frame or firearm receiver as defined in subsection k of this section which is not imprinted with a serial number registered with a federally licensed manufacturer, including but not limited to a firearm manufactured or otherwise assembled from parts purchased or otherwise obtained in violation of subsection k. of this section, is guilty of a crime of the second degree.” Page – 6 – of 7

Evan Nappen 23:59

That’s up to 10 years, folks, in state prison. Ten years. Now, this section was just atrocious and was recently raised to a First-Degree charge by the way. So, it’s now up to 20 years in state prison. But either way, it’s such absurd amounts of jail for this. Then Bobby writes this. This affects me as I own a pump action 12-gauge shotgun that my father purchased in 1956, just after his 18th birthday. This firearm was manufactured before federal law in 1968 required that it have a serial number on it. My attorney has advised me that should I take it out of my home it would subject me to three to five years in state prison. And another bill (A4557) was introduced since this law was made effective that would increase the charge for violation of this law to a crime of the first degree. And that did pass as well, by the way, putting this offense on the same level as murder or aggravated sexual assault. Prior to the enactment of the law, I used this firearm for sporting clays in both New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

Evan Nappen 25:18

My father purchased this shotgun at Sears and Roebuck on October 10, 1956, for $48.88 plus 33 cents for shipping. He has a picture, folks, of the actual receipt from Sears from 1956 for the purchase of this shotgun with no serial number. Then he has a wonderful picture from December of 1963 of his dad and him and his deer on the back porch of their home in Irvington, New Jersey, just before his third birthday. Look at the history, the rich family history, of the shotgun here. This firearm is a family heirloom and I’m hoping that the law you passed to address so-called “ghost guns” wasn’t meant to preclude me from continuing to use this 66-year-old shotgun as I did before this law was enacted. I cannot transport, ship, sell or dispose of this firearm. What am I to do with it? Why is the firearm suddenly so dangerous that if I were to take it from my home, I could ruin my life and spend 20 years in prison? Would any of you be willing to take the steps necessary to correct this unintended consequence, which is clearly unconstitutional and, in effect, renders my firearm useless? I would welcome the opportunity to speak or meet with any of you in favor of this.

Evan Nappen 27:02

Let me just say. There’s only one thing that I disagree with Bobby on and that is that it was an unintended consequence. I think he’s giving them more credit than they deserve. I think they know damn well what they’re doing, or are simply reckless, reckless in their behavior. It’s one or the other. I don’t think it was a simple, honest mistake. I really don’t. It’s absolutely outrageous. If it is, then they’re not reading these laws. They’re not giving time for debate on these laws. They’re not making it clear, getting any type of impact as to what it does. They don’t really care that it turns law-abiding citizens into criminals, because this is one of many, many laws. Just about every gun law that New Jersey has affects law-abiding citizens. Affects law-abiding citizens enormously more than it affects any criminal.

Evan Nappen 28:04

Look, if by some weird, crazy, chance some criminal actually gets charged with one of the gun laws. Oh, that’d be shocking, but just make believe it happened. Well, that’s going to be the first thing that is plea bargained away, folks. First thing. They’re not going to enforce the gun laws on the criminals. It’s the honest citizens that possess their grandfather’s shotgun purchased in 1956 and has been handed down as a family heirloom. If they happen to go hunting one day, in the family tradition with his kids even, and he ends up being charged with one of the highest level of crimes that New Jersey has to Page – 7 – of 7

offer for doing that very thing. This is the outrage and the absurdity. Yet another example of what New Jersey does to good people, and these legislators should be ashamed of themselves. They are not upholding their oath of office. They’re not doing their job and protecting our rights, our liberties. It’s just the opposite. They’re unbelievably arrogant about it, and blatant about their violation of our rights and rejoicing in screwing with us and turning us into criminals. It is an outrageous situation.

Evan Nappen 29:38

This is why the fight has to continue. We can’t give up. Eternal vigilance. We won’t give up. We’re fighting. We’re getting the word out. We have great organizations like the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. This is part of it. Make sure you belong. Make sure you belong to the Association. Make sure you belong to any other gun group that you feel is in your interest to join. You don’t have to just join one. But this is critical, critical. Take steps. When you get those alerts, let the legislators know. Make sure you get out and vote. Doing these civic duties. You may think it’s small, and it doesn’t count, but it does count. It makes a difference. We can get our rights back. The fight is on. And on the one hand, these may be the glorious times. The glorious times that our grandchildren and such can look back on. Hey, they fought and got our rights back. And we can be proud of that. Because we’re not going to give up. It’s these fights and these absurdities. They are the challenges for us right now, and you’re all part of this. So, just remember, as I’ve stated before, that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 31:19

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E115_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 114-The Rifle and Shotgun TrapAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 114SUMMARY KEYWORDS

exemptions, firearm, handgun, place, cased, law, unloaded, gun, state, exempted, new jersey, sensitive, firearms, facility, id card, shotgun, subsection b, rifle, lawyer, carry permit

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome Gun Lawyer. I want everyone to be aware of the traps, multiple traps, that have been created by this new atrocity, this so-called 4769 Bill. The traps are actually more hidden and greater than you may suspect, and it’s not just about carrying a handgun. This new law has essentially gutted the utilitarian value of a Firearms ID Card when it comes to transport of firearms. I’m going to explain this in detail. Because most folks do not understand this, are clueless about this, and are simply going to be sitting ducks to be turned into criminals, which is what New Jersey does. It is constantly looking to turn law-abiding citizens into criminals. And it is because of an agenda that is not just anti-gun, and not just anti-gun rights, but anti-you and me. They want us disenfranchised of our rights for the entire country, and by turning us into felons, you lose your gun rights for the entire country.

Evan Nappen 01:48

It doesn’t matter how stupid and unreasonable and idiotic the state gun law is, or the state law is that you violated. If it’s a felony level offense, you’re screwed for the whole country. So, you need to be aware of these traps. I’m going to do a little bit of a deep dive here and discuss the so-called “sensitive places” section of the bill and its far-reaching implications, not just for handguns. Before I do that, I want to first of all, thank our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, for supporting the show so that I’m able to continue to tell law-abiding gun owners like yourself about these things. To warn you so that you don’t become a victim of New Jersey gun law. At least folks that listen to Gun Lawyer are going to be smart, and they’re going to know where these dangers are.

Evan Nappen 03:01

As a preface to this, the first thing everyone needs to understand is how our long arm possession system worked prior to this bill. Prior to this bill, the prohibition on possession of rifles and shotguns is under NJS 2C:39-5.c. Under that section, it says no person shall possess any rifle or shotgun unless having first obtained a Firearm Purchaser Identification Card. The next section says you can’t have the rifle or shotgun loaded unless otherwise permitted by law. Now, the exemptions to 39-5. are found in 39-6. Now in 39-5.c. is where the section is about rifles and shotguns that I just reviewed with you, and under Subsection b. of 39-5 is a prohibition on handguns. Page – 2 – of 9

Evan Nappen 04:09

The handgun prohibition in b. said no person shall possess any handgun unless having first obtained a Permit to Carry a Handgun. The same exemptions under 39-6. applied to the handgun prohibition and applied to the rifle and shotgun prohibition. But the difference always was that if you had a handgun, and prior to anyone essentially being able to get a carry permit prior to Bruen, when you were transporting your handgun, you had to transport strictly within the exemptions under 39-6., which are very narrow exemptions, unless you had a Permit to Carry a Handgun. If you had a long arm, a rifle or shotgun, you could transport lawfully within the exemptions, but you could also transport, as long as your rifle shotgun was unloaded, you could transport beyond the exemptions if you had a Firearms ID Card. Because the Firearms ID Card is what exempted your unlawful possession right in the face of the statute under 39-5.c., just like possession of a handgun if you had a carry permit. Well, that exempted your possession of the handgun without needing to go to the exemptions, but since so few people had carry licenses, they could not get that protection. They had to strictly rely on the exemptions. So, that’s how New Jersey’s system essentially worked.

Evan Nappen 05:46

Then lo and behold, Bruen, the Bruen decision comes along and makes it so that citizens are actually able to get carry permits. When citizens got carry permits, that then exempted them right away from the 39-5.b. prohibition without the necessity of having to rely upon exemptions, because now you have a carry license, you see. It made it the same as for rifles and shotguns if you had a Firearms ID Card. The only difference is with a carry permit for a handgun, you could actually have your handgun loaded. Because with rifles and shotguns, you weren’t allowed to have it loaded, unless you were otherwise permitted by law, which meant you were somehow under an exemption for having it loaded, but unloaded, you’re always fine.

Evan Nappen 06:36

Well, now the entire thing has been turned on its ear. What we have is a section in the new law that creates a whole bunch of so-called “sensitive places” where possession of your handgun, most people are looking at in terms of handguns, are otherwise prohibited even if you have a carry permit. You’re still not allowed to have a handgun there, and you’re not allowed to have a handgun there, in many of these places, even if it’s unloaded and in a case. Okay, even for that. There are certain exemptions that are narrow, and we’re going to review them. But basically, they gutted the usefulness of a carry permit by creating all the “sensitive places”. But in the writing of the law, they didn’t just say handgun. They said firearm and now that put the Firearms ID Card into the same category and you end up with the same sensitive place restrictions on mere possession, unloaded by the way, of a rifle or shotgun.

Evan Nappen 08:00

So, even if you have an unloaded, cased, rifle or shotgun, your Firearms ID Card in the sensitive places no longer protects you. The only exemption now, the only one for long arms, are the exemptions under 39-6.e. and f. We are going to review those. E. is essentially in your home, and f. is hunting or at the target range. If you’re outside of that, even with an unloaded rifle or shotgun where you used to be legal, and you’re in any of these varied and wide and poorly defined “sensitive places”, well, then you’re now guilty. You can be charged and convicted of a Third-Degree crime in which you face up to five years in state prison. Even though your gun is unloaded. Even though you have a Firearms ID Card. It Page – 3 – of 9

doesn’t matter. These all come under what we are calling now Section 7. of the bill. The reason we’re calling it Section 7. is it has not been put into the statutes yet so that we know what New Jersey statutory number it has. It doesn’t have a number assigned to it yet. So, we call it from the bill, Section 7., which is an entirely new section of law.

Evan Nappen 09:39

Here’s what it says. It says, “(New section) Places where the carrying a firearm or destructive device is prohibited.” It goes on to say that, except as otherwise provided, and we’re going to get into that. It’s a crime of the Third Degree for any person, other than a person lawfully carrying a firearm within the authorized scope of an exemption under 39-6., to knowingly carry a firearm, folks, not a handgun. Not just handguns, a firearm. It’s a crime in the Second Degree, by the way, if you carry a destructive device. I don’t know why you’d be having a destructive device with you, but plainly, it’s common for rifles, shotguns, particularly shotguns going hunting, etc. And it is prohibited in any of the following places that we’re going to review now, including, by the way, any part of the buildings, grounds or parking areas.

Evan Nappen 10:45

So, buildings, grounds, and parking areas of everything we’re going to review next is a prohibited place for the firearm possessor. The first place is a place owned, leased, or under the control of any state, county or municipal government used for the purpose of government administration, including but not limited to, police stations. So, if you have your unloaded rifle or shotgun in a case, and you want to stop by the police station to put in for another permit, you can’t do that. It is a sensitive prohibited place, including the parking lot for the police. There’s no exemption for that. A courthouse, a court room, or any premises used to conduct judicial or court administrative proceedings, or function. So, if you’re planning on going to the target range or hunting after court and you park your vehicle in a court parking lot, you are in violation, even though you have a Firearms ID Card. Even though it’s cased. Even though it’s unloaded. No good. Illegal. Crime of the Third Degree. It wasn’t before, but now it is. It applies to long arms, not just your handgun. A state, county, or municipal correctional or juvenile justice facility. A jail or any other place maintained. Any of this or any other place maintained by or for a government entity for the detention of criminal suspects or offenders.

Evan Nappen 12:25

Remember, the parking lot for such a place is covered. The grounds for such a place and the buildings, all broad strokes. For any of these places. Good luck identifying any one of those places. You better know where they might be holding a prisoner or what might be being used for juvenile justice purposes, even in some commercial building. But if it’s there, you’re barred from even having your car with an unloaded, cased hunting shotgun. Nope, your Firearms ID Card will not help you here. A state-contracted halfway house is a prohibited spot. A location being used as a polling place during the conduct of election and places used for storage or tabulation of ballots. I hope you know any place that might be a storage facility for ballots. Because if your car is there, if you’re there with an unloaded rifle or shotgun, at that same facility, and don’t even know ballots are being stored or tabulated there. Especially given the last election. Who knew where the ballets were being tabulated. That’s part of the problem. You’re in trouble. Page – 4 – of 9

Evan Nappen 13:41

If you’re within 100 feet of a place where a public gathering, a demonstration or event is held, for which a government permit is required, during the conduct of such gathering, demonstration or event. I guess you now have to check for any public gathering, whether it’s got a permit or not issued by the government, as to whether you’re legal to have your unloaded long arm in your vehicle by there. Even though you have a Firearms ID Card, that’s now a prohibited sensitive place. A school, a college, a university or other educational institution and on any school bus. Now educational institutions are undefined. Does that include your house of worship where they teach Sunday school or Hebrew school? Is that an educational institution? Any school bus? If they’re parking a school bus in a private lot, is that the parking lot for a school bus now? Because it’s grounds and buildings and parking facilities, and it’s any college or university. You had better watch out while you’re driving through these places. Stopping in these places. You’re no longer given the ability to lawfully utilize your Firearms ID card in the manner that we’ve been used to.

Evan Nappen 15:20

A nursery school is covered. A preschool, a zoo, or a summer camp. I hope you don’t park at the Zoo. Or if this facility is a summer camp, and you didn’t know it. Hey, this is all part of it. These are all sensitive places in New Jersey now that are considered and banned for firearm possession. At a park, a beach, a recreational facility or area playground owned or controlled by a state, county or local government unit or any part of such place, which is designated as a gun-free zone by the governing authority based on considerations of public safety. Well, I hope you know all that before you venture forth there whether it’s a problem, because guess whose responsibility it is to know? You! That’s right.

Evan Nappen 16:17

How about this one – at youth sports events, during and immediately preceding the conduct of the event. So, this is any youth sporting event, anywhere? Where? I don’t know. It doesn’t say. It doesn’t even mean it has to be at a school. It’s just a sporting event. You’re parked in the parking lot, or you went to pick up your kid with your gun, even though you had a Firearms ID Card. You can just see how many problems this is going to cause. Oh, but they did exempt for U.S. sporting events, firearm shootings competitions. Wasn’t that nice of them? Imagine a U.S. sporting event for shooting, but you’re not allowed to bring your gun. That would really be tricky. A publicly owned or leased library or museum. Don’t park at the library. Don’t go over there to the museum. You’re barred. You’re banned, even for your rifle or shotgun.

Evan Nappen 17:23

A shelter for the homeless. Emergency shelter for the homeless. Basic center of shelter program for runaway youth. A children’s center. A childcare shelter for victims of domestic violence, or any shelter licensed under the control of the Juvenile Justice Commission and Department of Children and Families. I hope you know every one of them and where they’re located. A community residence for persons with developmental disabilities, head injuries, terminal illnesses or any other residential setting licensed by the Department of Human Services or Department of Health. Make sure you get your. You could actually live next to one of these places. How does this work? A restaurant or bar where alcohol is served. Remember parking or grounds or other facilities. So, it’s a restaurant or bar where alcohol is served or any other site or facility where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. Page – 5 – of 9

Evan Nappen 18:23

A Class 5 Cannabis retailer or medical cannabis dispensary, including any consumption areas licensed or permitted by the Cannabis Regulatory Commission. A privately or publicly owned and operated entertainment facility within the state. Think about that. A private or public entertainment facility, including but not limited to a theater, a stadium, a museum, an arena, a racetrack or other places where performances, concerts, exhibits, games, and contests are held. A casino and related facilities. Don’t go parking in the casino parking lot with your unloaded, cased gun that you’re going to go to the range with or are going to go hunting with or may have come from hunting or going to the range. Because even though your Firearms ID Card may have protected you in the past, it doesn’t anymore. For sure, it does not. It is now a sensitive place, officially, even in the parking lot.

Evan Nappen 19:35

A plant that produces, converts, distributes or stores energy or converts one form of energy to another. What the heck? A plant or operation that converts, distributes or stores energy or converts one form of energy to another. So, is that just a solar panel located anywhere? It stores energy and converts it. Is it a gas station? Doesn’t that store energy? I mean, what is covered by this? This is so broad and vague and undefined. But it’s a sensitive place, and you better know it. Because otherwise it’s Third Degree, and it’s up to five years in state prison for you and loss of your gun rights. An airport or public transportation hub. They’re not just talking about sensitive places, the restricted zone. They mean even the parking lot for the airport. How do you even transport your firearm to the airport to travel with it? You are going to have to heavily rely on the federal law under Title 18 926 A, and hope that it covers you. There are all kinds of problems with that coverage going airports.

Evan Nappen 20:49

If you don’t believe it, look at my case, Greg Revell, and what we had to go through there with the Greg Revell case over airports. It’s not so cut and dried and now it’s made specifically a sensitive place. We’re not done yet folks. A healthcare facility, including but not limited to the general hospital, a special hospital, psychiatric hospital, a public health center, a diagnostic center, a treatment center, a rehabilitation center, extended care facility, a skilled nursing home, a nursing home, intermediate care facility, a tuberculosis hospital, a chronic disease hospital, a maternity hospital, outpatient clinic, a dispensary, assisted living center, a home health care agency, a residential treatment facility, residential health care facility, medical office, or an ambulatory care facility. All those are sensitive places, buildings and grounds and parking. Good luck. Good luck, not falling into the trap. We’re still not done because a facility licensed or regulated by the Department of Human Services, Department of Children and Families, or Department of Health, other than a healthcare facility, that provides addiction or mental health treatment with support services.

Evan Nappen 22:20

Number 23. A public location being used for making motion picture or television images for theatrical, commercial or educational purposes, during the time such location is being used for that purpose. Well, I hope you know that that’s what’s going on. Because I don’t know how you’re going to know that. But you better. Finally, here how about this. Private property, including but not limited to, residential, commercial, industrial, agricultural, institutional or undeveloped property unless the owner has provided Page – 6 – of 9

express consent, express consent, or has posted a sign saying it is permissible to carry on the premises a concealed handgun with a valid and lawfully issued permit, providing that nothing shall be construed to stop you from having it in your home.

Evan Nappen 23:16

So, in order for you to have a long arm, rifle or shotgun, this private property has to say that I can carry a handgun there to make it legal for me to have my cased, unloaded rifle or shotgun on private property. They have to say it’s good for handguns because they just conflate the two in this. Any other place in which the carrying of firearm is prohibited by statute or rule or regulation promulgated by a federal or state agency. I hope you know every single rule, by every federal and state agency that ever said, no guns allowed. Because if you screw that up, even though you have your Firearms ID Card and your hunting shotgun and his cased, unloaded, it doesn’t matter. New Jersey says you’re a felon, and you’re looking at five years in prison. When we get back, I have more to tell you that you can be warned about just how insane this new law is.

Speaker 3 24:31

For over 30 years attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 25:45

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 26:01

Hey, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen. Again, I’d like to thank our sponsors, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. That’s anjrpc.org. They are currently, right now as we’re speaking, engaged in massive litigation, trying to end this insanity that we’re reviewing right now. Trying to get, and hopefully we will get, an injunction and stop this insane intrusion on our rights. They’re on the front lines for you and me. In the courts, battling this and in the legislature. This is why you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It is the minimum thing you should do if you care about your gun rights. Join ANJRPC – that membership is critical. You’ll be able to stay on top of the latest legal developments, and you know that you’re doing your part in the fight. They’re the state affiliate of the NRA for New Jersey, and they are the premier gun group in the state that you must belong to. So go to anjrpc.org. Make sure you are a member and remain a member as we are engaged in the fight of our lives. But this is a glorious fight. Because once we win here, once we get through this Page – 7 – of 9

hurdle, this battle, this post-Bruen test of our wills, we are going to be so strong. We’re going to have established firmly, once and for all, our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey and start turning back the abuses that had been heaped upon us. ANJRPC is at the forefront helping that to occur. So, make sure you join.

Evan Nappen 28:09

So, what are the exemptions here? How do they work? Well, it says a person other than a person lawfully carrying a firearm within the scope of the exemption under subsection a., c. and l. of 39-6. Get a load of this one. Can’t transport a loaded handgun in a vehicle. Now this is what’s called subsection b. of the new section. This is the vehicle prohibition itself, which is separate from the 25 paragraphs that we just reviewed of sensitive places. This is subsection b. vehicle prohibition. And in this one, it’s all about handguns, strictly. So, don’t confuse the vehicle one with the other sensitive places because it’s very convoluted here. The handgun exemption, which I think is just something I want to point out to you, says even with a carry permit, you cannot have your handgun unloaded on your person in the vehicle. Unless you’re one of these exempted parties. Even with a carry permit, and this is the section we call the “Car Jacker Protection” law right there. That’s the Car Jacker Protection law so that you can’t protect yourself in your vehicle.

Evan Nappen 29:33

But I want to point out that there are exemptions, but those exemptions are narrow. They’re only for a., c. and l. A and c. are various law enforcement officers and government folks, and of course, they exempt the elites themselves. They added a new provision so the prosecutors and judges can carry to protect themselves, but not average citizens. You see, they don’t qualify. They’re not elite enough. You’re right. So, the exempted persons are put here as to who can defend themselves while in a vehicle and have exemption to this and that is a., c., and l. A and c. are law enforcement, and l. is retired law enforcement. But I wanted to point out that in their zest for putting in these exemptions, they forgot to exempt b., subsection b. of 39-6. If you look at subsection b., you’ll see that subsection b. is an exemption for a law enforcement officer employed outside the state of New Jersey. So, they forgot to or eliminated non-resident law enforcement officers from other states where there’s an exemption under subsection b. of 39-6, but it’s not included here. And so even those officers that are exempted under b. normally where they would be engaged in official duties, and they first notified the Superintendent and chief law enforcement officer that they were doing all that, that exemption was not included. So, any out of stater, any out of state officer who is following subsection b. and thinking that they’re in the clear, they’re not. They are guilty of violating the law if their gun is loaded on their person in their vehicle, because they weren’t exempted.

Evan Nappen 31:45

The only hope they have is if they fall under LEOSA (Law Enforcement Officer Safety Act. If that out of state officer is not LEOSA qualified, then the b. exemption that they had relied upon for years coming into New Jersey, will not protect them in a vehicle. They cannot have it loaded on their person. So, remember, they’re going to have to be a qualified law enforcement officer under LEOSA to even argue that they are lawfully allowed to do it. When it comes to the LEOSA qualification, even for active duty officers, keep in mind that the requirements for that include that the person has to be authorized by law to engage or supervise in the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution or incarceration, of Page – 8 – of 9

any person for any violation of law and that you have the statutory powers of arrest or apprehension. You have to be authorized by your agency to carry a firearm. You can’t be subject to any disciplinary action by the agency which could result in suspension or loss of police powers. So, if there’s agency action on you, even if you’re one of these folks that got the approval to come here from out of state, you’re not covered in your vehicle. You don’t have LEOSA coverage. You also have to have, that you meet the standards that you’ve qualified regularly for the firearm, and that you’re not under the influence of alcohol, or other intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance.

Evan Nappen 33:31

I actually have had cases where out of state officers that did qualify and do so but went to the bar and had a drink or two. It disqualified them from the LEOSA qualification because you cannot be under the influence. If you’re in Jersey and you’re using cannabis or you’re drinking, you’re under that influence. It doesn’t mean that you’re completely intoxicated, just under the influence of it. You are no longer covered by LEOSA, and the exemption doesn’t cover you in your vehicle. So, imagine being in your vehicle as an officer from out of state and having an accident, and there was any of this. You’re looking at gun charges on top of everything else now as well. And, of course, the other qualifiers. You can’t be prohibited by federal law from receiving a firearm. It would be unlikely as law enforcement that that would apply to you. But look, they’ve completely screwed over out of state law enforcement by forgetting the b. section. But then again, we’re just talking about elite exemptions. I guess a lot of folks may not even care about that, given the overall approach of this law is just to screw over ordinary citizens. So, why should we care? But I care. I don’t want to see good law enforcement hurt either, especially being confused and thrown to the wolves by Jersey in their ridiculous gun laws.

Evan Nappen 35:11

But you can see how deep this goes, because it applies on all those sensitive places to our long arms as well as our handguns. The only exemption that specifically states here that applies is that nothing in this section shall apply to the carrying or transporting of a firearm in accordance with subsection e. and f. of 39-6. The only exemptions at all to those sensitive places are if you are within the exemptions of e. and f., of 39-6. So, we’re back to the Firearms ID Card not protecting us at all on our transport and having to specifically rely on subsection e. and f. What do those sections say? What do they cover? What does e. cover, for example? Well, e. says that it covers place of business, residence, premises or land owned or possessed by the person. So, the subsection e. is your business, as long as you own the business, your residence, premises or land owned or possessed. If you are on your own property, you can have your long arms on your own property. How nice of them. Or at your place of business, as long as you are the owner of that place of business. Then if you want to transport from there, you have to do it pursuant to subsection g., which is essentially cased and unloaded. Okay, the way we’ve been trained to do it. You can go between your dwelling and your place of business, and between one place of business and a residence and another when moving. You can go between a person’s dwelling and place of business and a place where firearms are repaired for the purpose of repair. Okay, so these are the places exempt under e.

Evan Nappen 37:24

Then we go to f. What’s exempted under f.? Well, it’s going to or from a rifle or pistol club, or place of target practice. Or if you’re carrying in the woods or fields of the state for hunting, target practice, or Page – 9 – of 9

fishing provided the firearm or knife is lawful for hunting or fishing and that you have in your possession a valid hunting license. You have to have a valid license in your possession, then you can transport the firearm. Now we’re in this subsection f. transport, where? Directly to or from the place of hunting or fishing provided you have that valid license. Or directly to or from the target range, or other place for authorized practice and exhibition of firearms, as long as you’re in full compliance with all of the Fish and Game laws, by the way. If you’re doing those narrow activities of subsection e. and f., then and only then, are you protected in the transport of your rifle and shotgun. Your Firearms ID Card no longer protects you in all those places, all those undefined places.

Evan Nappen 39:02

At the same time, if you got that carry permit, it’s been rendered neutered, essentially turned into uselessness, virtually, in the same manner. So, this is what we’re stuck with at the moment. It’s going to take the challenges in court to set aside this stuff. But until that happens, until we succeed in doing that, I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of New Jersey gun laws. I don’t want to see any of you end up with criminal trouble. You have to be smart. You have to know just how outrageous, terrible our legislators are, and how the Democrats in the legislature and Murphy have shoved this upon us without consideration of our rights and our freedoms. They created this massive matrix of a trap for us, which is exactly what they’ve done. And now, it’s taking the efforts of the pro-gun groups, particularly the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, bringing this action to take this stuff down and to protect us. This is why again, I want to thank them as our sponsor, the Association of New Jersey rifle & Pistol Clubs, anjrpc.org . Make sure you join. Make sure you’re a member. Make sure that you are aware and that your family and friends know just how treacherous and dangerous this new law has made it. Even for those who didn’t care about carry, who said, well, I don’t care. I’m just a hunter. Doesn’t affect me. You know, we jokingly call the Fuds. Well, I got news for you Fuds. You’ve been wrapped up in this mess, too. That’s what’s happened. Your long arms are just as problematic as a handgun now, and those problems are insanely serious in New Jersey if you get wrapped up or fall into any of these traps. Now you know. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws do not protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 41:39

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E114_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

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Episode 113-How We Beat BidenAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 113SUMMARY KEYWORDS

atf, biden, gun, inspectors, new jersey, firearms, inspections, law, revoke, willfully, willful, gun rights, fight, evan, state, ira, license, gun dealers, hearing, lawyer

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3, Ira Levin

Evan Nappen 00:00

Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, today we have a very special guest in the studio and that is somebody who I am really, really excited to have been able to help. Together our guest, whose name is Ira Levin, we defeated Biden. That is correct. We defeated Biden. And that’s because Joe Biden put forward an arbitrary policy that was not something done by the legislature, but something done by fiat. And it created a situation in which top gun dealers, range operators, etc, became vulnerable to being destroyed, having their businesses utterly destroyed based on this arbitrary rule. We’re gonna get into it, and how we fought it, and how this made a huge difference. And how, despite the efforts of the Biden administration, there are elements in the law that had been put there to protect us. And in fact, in this case, that’s exactly what happened.

Evan Nappen 01:48

I want to first mention our show’s sponsor, ANJRPC, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs. They are a great organization that defends our gun rights in New Jersey, and I would encourage everyone to be a member of the Association. It’s the state affiliate of the NRA. It’s the umbrella organization of gun clubs in New Jersey, and they have full time lobbyists down in Trenton. And they never sleep. Let me tell you

Evan Nappen 02:23

But let me introduce to you, Ira. Ira, thank you for being on the show today.

Ira Levin 02:29

Thank you for having me, Evan. I appreciate it.

Evan Nappen 02:31

Now, Ira, first of all, I would like our listeners to know about you. You’re a veteran. First of all, correct?

Ira Levin 02:42

That’s correct. I was in the Air Force for just over five years.

Evan Nappen 02:46

Then at a certain point, you became involved in the firearms business. How did that come about? Page – 2 – of 10

Ira Levin 02:57

If you remember back, New Jersey passed a law that said that you could only purchase one handgun every 30 days. When that law passed, or when the legislation passed, I said to my wife, I said, this is the most ridiculous legislation. If they think this is going to stop gun crime. No one’s buying a gun legally, and then selling it to somebody on the side so they can go and commit crimes. The person gets caught, where’s the gun come from? They go back to the buyer and say, Where’s your gun? How many

Evan Nappen 03:28

Wait a minute, wait a minute. Ira, you mean to tell me that people don’t go through the entire New Jersey permitting process so they can get guns papered to themselves, so they can then sell them on the street. Really? That’s amazing.

Ira Levin 03:44

So, I said to my wife, I should get my license and help people buy guns legally as cheap as possible. And she said, you know what, why don’t you do it? So, I applied, and I started doing FFL transfers out of my home. Eventually I became so busy that I had to move into a little shop, and I’ve since grown that into a multimillion-dollar business.

Evan Nappen 04:07

That’s great. And what’s the name of your shop for those that may not know?

Ira Levin 04:10

Legend Firearms. I’m located in Monroe, New Jersey, inside the Union Hill Gun Club.

Evan Nappen 04:17

Okay. There is also where there’s firearm training and range facility. Right?

Ira Levin 04:27

Right. We have it’s a 24-hour facility. It’s a private club. It’s very reasonably priced. We also have a training group on site. ROC Training is run by Rocco La Rocca. So, he does all the training, him and his people and obviously they’re very busy right now with the concealed carry classes.

Evan Nappen 04:44

Right. New Jersey, of course, is a challenging environment to be involved with firearms. Probably the most challenging, and yet your problem that you ended up having was not with New Jersey. Isn’t that so?

Ira Levin 05:02

That’s correct. My issue was with the ATF. I have never had an issue with the state of New Jersey. Page – 3 – of 10

Evan Nappen 05:08

Now, tell me, when you’re a gun dealer ATF has a certain job to do when it comes to licensees. And that I guess involves doing various inspections and such. And you’ve had inspections through the years, correct?

Ira Levin 05:26

Yes, I’ve had a number of inspections since 2009, when I first started my business.

Evan Nappen 05:32

Right, and how would you characterize your relationship with the ATF?

Ira Levin 05:41

Excellent. I always had a great relationship. I still have a good relationship with the people who inspected me.

Evan Nappen 05:46

Right. In fact, you were rather shocked, I’m sure, when you were notified that they intended to revoke your FFL. Isn’t that so?

Ira Levin 06:02

Yes. I mean, I remember the day very clearly. I got a call from my daughter, who runs the shop along with me, and she says, Daddy, someone from the ATF is here. And they just dropped off a letter to you. And she started to read it to me. And when she got to revocation, I said, stop. I’m on my way into the store. I was in disbelief.

Evan Nappen 06:24

And it ended up that the heart of their problem was the claim that you had conducted what? What was the heart of their issue?

Ira Levin 06:39

I had willfully flouted the law. I believe is the right word. That I had willfully done transactions that were outside of the scope of the legal definition that they provide, which is, you know, come in to do your paperwork, you have to pick up the firearm within 30 days, provided that you’re approved during your NICS check. So, we

Evan Nappen 07:04

Right, go ahead. No, I was going to say so three persons they claimed you did not perform NICS checks on, but in fact, you did perform NICS checks, didn’t you?

Ira Levin 07:16

We did perform NICs checks. Absolutely.

Evan Nappen 07:18

And they all passed the NICS checks that you performed, correct? Page – 4 – of 10

Ira Levin 07:22

Yes, absolutely.

Evan Nappen 07:23

So, the problem was what then? How could they say you didn’t do a NICS check, when in fact, you did NICS checks, and all these people pass their NICS check?

Ira Levin 07:33

Well, you know, I don’t know specifically what the law says. But I can tell you that ATF says, If someone fills out a 4473, regardless of how, which is the form you fill out when you purchase a firearm, regardless of how long the background check or the NICS check takes, that person has to pick up that firearm within 30 days, or that form is dead. If they pick up the gun on the 31st day or the 35th day and you use that same form, they consider it a transfer without a NICS check.

Evan Nappen 08:05

So, anything over 30 days, ATF takes a view that you need to do another NICS check. Now this other NICS check that ATF wants you to do is no different than the NICS check that you performed originally, right? Same NICS check?

Ira Levin 08:26

That’s correct. It’s the same NICS check.

Evan Nappen 08:28

And given that, really, it’s simply a matter of an arbitrary period of time that ATF has chosen to say, oh, well, after 30 days, you have to do another one. Right?

Ira Levin 08:44

That’s correct.

Evan Nappen 08:44

That’s right. And go ahead.

Ira Levin 08:46

You know, what surprises me most is something I actually learned from you during a conversation with ATF was that, in states, which ATF maintains New Jersey is not one of, in states where you have a concealed carry permit, you need a NICS check once every five years.

Evan Nappen 09:04

Correct. That’s called the Brady exemption and the ATF, they put out a list of states that have licenses that they are willing to say, make it so that if it meets their criteria that they establish, you don’t need to get a NICS check. One of the criteria of their license requirements is that a license cannot be valid for over five years. So, with all these states that have the NICS exempt licenses, you can have a license where you haven’t undergone a background check for literally, four years, 364 days. You haven’t had a Page – 5 – of 10

background check. And you could sell a firearm with no NICS check at all, to that individual who all those years has not had any background check. And ATF is perfectly fine with that, because the law actually permits that. Correct?

Ira Levin 10:09

That’s my understanding. Yes.

Evan Nappen 10:11

It is. Yet here, they’re attempting to revoke, absolutely revoke, your license, destroy the business that you built, destroy your livelihood, destroy your investment, and your passion over a rule that isn’t even an official rule, but rather a promulgation by the Biden administration saying any dealer that didn’t perform a NICS check, you move to revoke. And that’s what happened to you. Right?

Ira Levin 10:50

That’s correct.

Evan Nappen 10:51

Yes, they do. So, after we pointed this out to them, because the process begins where you have an informal hearing at first. Prior to Biden’s politicization of the issues to just try to close down and intimidate gun dealers, ATF would reasonably hold an informal hearing, where most of the time, you would just work things out, do whatever they needed, if there were some adjustments needed. And you could continue to do your business and continue with ATF in excellent relations. And that’s normally how it went. But not this time, because there was this mandate placed upon the agency by Biden, to move for revocation. So, after we had that informal hearing, where they could have simply resolved the matter, they said, no, we’re going to go to a final hearing. And the final hearing is where we had to argue and present a case that was actually being recorded by ATF. If we were unsuccessful at this next hearing, then the next step was going to the Federal Court on their attempt to revoke your license. When we come back from the break, we’re going to get into that final hearing, and how it went down and what the result was, and why.

Speaker 3 12:30

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer. Page – 6 – of 10

Speaker 3 13:44

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

Evan Nappen 13:59

Welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and today in the studio, we have a special guest. Ira Levin of Legend Firearms. We’re talking about how, together, we were able to beat Biden at his administrative attempts to destroy gun dealers throughout America. This is a really interesting case because it ended up pulling in the 1986 Gun Owners Protection Act provisions that we’re going to talk about, and other gun dealers who may be facing the same challenges can use the same law.

Evan Nappen 14:45

I want to tell you that our sponsor Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. It’s a great organization and is at the forefront in New Jersey fighting for our rights. I’ve been a part of the Association for many, many years. Helping with litigation and legislative analysis. And I want to tell you, you need to be a member of your state organization. There are plenty of great gun groups out there. This is not to say to only belong to the Association. But at a minimum, if you care about your gun rights in New Jersey, particularly, you need to belong to the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org. Make sure you have your membership because when you’re a member, they send out email alerts, so you know exactly what’s going on. They have a full-time lobbyist, a paid lobbyist, in Trenton. We’re on top of it. You’re able to make a difference, and by following the emails, you can virtually instantly let your legislators know your position on these gun bills. Know the progress. Know the laws. Know what you can do to protect yourself if the laws are going to go through. We’re in a big fight. New Jersey is the front line in the battle for gun rights, and the Association is there for you. So, make sure you join.

Evan Nappen 16:12

So, IRA, I was really interested when we went to this final hearing. I think they had about eight people there from ATF. I think it was. They had to make sure they had lots of folks to go against me, I guess. But it was interesting in their approach, because they had themselves in the allegations against you, claimed something that was utterly and completely untrue. What they claimed, that was so unbelievably untrue, was that your violations were “willful”. Now the reason they use the word willful, is that is in the law as to what must be proven and/or demonstrated to have a revocation. The willful standard was put into the law in the Gun Owners Protection Act because of the abuse that had taken place prior. That’s why the pro-gun forces were able to get the standard to willful and that willful standard meant you had to have intention, or that you had a callous disregard for what you were doing. And of course, none of that was true in your case. Exactly the opposite. You were incredibly diligent and responsive to ATF, and you, at every turn, simply want to obey the law and conduct your business properly pursuant to the license. And that is a fact. Yet they still made this outrageous allegation, frankly, defamatory in my view, to claim that you acted willfully. Tell us about your relationship with ATF, Ira.

Ira Levin 18:21

Well, I mean, obviously, when you first get into this industry or this business, you fill out your applications for your firearms license. An inspector, which is the first time you meet, will come out to Page – 7 – of 10

look at the facility, introduce themselves and go over what’s required for each space. Every time you move, which I moved several times as my business grew, you had subsequent inspections, in addition to the standard inspections that you’re subjected to, annually by ATT. My relationship with, and obviously I won’t use any of the inspectors’ names, have always been, you know, very good. I always seek to cooperate. You know, maybe more so than some other dealers. Because, you know, it’s as important to me as it is to them, I think, to prevent firearms from falling into the hands of people who should not have them. When I was in the military, I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. And I still take that oath very seriously. I have friends who are firearms dealers in this state who took that same oath as police officers. And I know they take it very seriously. The inspectors know, and the inspectors knew, and one even mentioned in their testimony, that what I did, they believed was not willful, which to me was a big win. When you were questioning that particular inspector, and it was just question after question after question. Then you said, do you believe this was willful? And that inspector said, absolutely not. I almost fell off my chair.

Evan Nappen 20:00

Well, that’s how you do cross examination in the right way. We brought it on piece by piece and laid the foundation to demonstrate and have their testimony demonstrate that you did not do any of this intentionally or with callous disregard. In fact, they even testified that it was the opposite until finally, they were themselves in a box where they had to admit, it wasn’t willful. And if it’s not willful, then it’s not revocation. Okay, and that is the law. And that’s how to use the very, that very factor that was placed into the law for just this reason, so that ATF could not do what they attempted to do to you, because they had done it in the past. And that was purposely put into the law. And he could see how critical it was in making the difference. You testified and were excellent in how you explained everything about yourself and how passionate you are. I know that that hit home as well. And that your relationship with ATF was so cordial and so cooperative. Didn’t you mention something about them even bringing doughnuts? How was that story? How did that go?

Ira Levin 21:35

Yeah, during one of my inspections, well, look, anytime I’ve ever had an inspection, you know, if I’m getting lunch, or I’m doing something, I will always ask the inspectors, hey, do you guys want anything? Do you need anything, whatever. Now that I’m a bigger dealer, my inspections take a much longer period of time. One of my inspectors was there on site for well over a week or two weeks. And you start to you know, you talk to them, what do you do, you know, where you go vacations, this and that. It’s not an interrogation for two weeks. They’re looking through paperwork to make sure there’s no errors. And this one particular inspector that happened to mention that they baked doughnuts, and I’m a fairly zaftig guy, you know. I don’t try. I won’t turn down a donut. And I may have mentioned that. And so, you know, they did some baking over the weekend in between inspection periods and brought in some donuts. They were great donuts, by the way. I mean, they were very good.

Ira Levin 22:35

But it’s important. This whole case, I think, is predicated, not based on what inspectors found, because the inspectors found some things, and I worked with them to correct them. They issued me a letter saying, hey, here’s what we found. We just want to let you know. You can’t do this in the future. Don’t let it happen again. And I really believed that was the end of it. Then, all of a sudden, I got a letter of Page – 8 – of 10

revocation. Months later. I mean, six months later. I do believe that’s predicated on the Biden administration’s direction to ATF. Because sitting in that room that you mentioned, there were eight people, four of those people had previously inspected me. Four of those people testified to me not having those errors or issues in previous inspections. And it was this one particular inspection where they discovered these issues. I think that the person who, you know, was running the hearing, again, I won’t mention his name because I think that would be unprofessional, did not speak with those inspectors and say, hey, is this guy a guy who, you know, he’s a problem, we got to get rid of this guy? Or is this guy a good guy, and this is an error. Because, you know, occasionally, human beings make mistakes. Because this can’t be the only career field where zero mistakes are expected.

Evan Nappen 23:55

There’s no question ATF was professional. No question. They acted professional. Through the hearing, they were professional. But you and I know that the timing of this and the purpose behind this and how this normally would have been handled, was Biden’s fingerprints all over it. The good news is, as much as he tried to destroy you and other gun dealers with this fiat that he decided to put out, it failed here. And it is great to actually see a system work. Of course, we raised other issues in your hearing that raised the pot, raised the ante, if you will, because if they had tried anything, we were going to federal court, and we were going to pursue even other legal issues raised. Not the least of which is whether a NICS check is even something they can require if you have a New Jersey handgun purchase permit. Because the New Jersey handgun purchase permit meets the standard in the law to get that Brady exemption even though ATF has never certified it as having the Brady exemption. So, these are things that all were on the table as well.

Evan Nappen 25:18

Yet, we were super pleased when the letter came to you. I know you posted the letter, and I just want to read a section of it so the listeners can see how this goes. It says, on March 21, 2022, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, Explosives issued a notice to revoke or suspend or impose a civil fine to your FFL, Racing Rails, LLC DBA Legend Firearms. Now notice, by the way, they could have not just revoked, which was the Biden mandate, but they also could have suspended and/or imposed a civil fine. All those other options that they had. Then it said, the notice alleged that you willfully violated rules and regulations prescribed and then he lists all the laws. The final sentence of that paragraph, after reviewing all testimony and evidence introduced at the hearing, I have determined not to issue a final notice of revocation in this matter. So, it was a total victory. And it was just wonderful. When did you learn of the victory, Ira?

Ira Levin 26:35

I was on a cruise in the Caribbean. My daughter called me on FaceTime and said, Daddy, there’s a letter here from ATF. Do you want me to read it? And I said, no, don’t read it. Because depending on what’s in it, it could just destroy the last few days of this trip. And she said, Listen, if I read it, and there’s something bad in it, I won’t tell you. I said, well, if you don’t tell me then I know there’s something bad in it. And I said, listen, if it’s bad, Evan is going to represent me, and we’re going to go to federal court anyways. So, you might as well just tell me, and she said, okay. She opened the letter, and I heard the rustling. As you know, and a lot of you know from looking at the letter online, there’s a lot of text before it gets to the good part, which is they’re going to not revoke my license. So, I kept saying, well, what Page – 9 – of 10

does it say? What does it say? And then, I’m on FaceTime audio on a cruise in the Caribbean. I can’t hear. And all I hear is, you know, nnt,nnt fine. No, no, no, fine. No, fine, no, fine. I’m like, there’s no fine? And she’s like, there’s no fine. There’s no revocation. You won. You won. You won. And she was screaming. And I said, okay, oh, I gotta go. I gotta text, Evan. And that’s where we are. I didn’t know you had already seen it and tried to email me.

Evan Nappen 27:54

I tried to email you, but you were out of contact, I guess. But that’s great. No, it was. We were just as excited on our side, and we know that the right decision was made by them. And that we were able to not just save you, which makes me so happy, but also to defeat the political nature of what this really was. And really, that’s what it was.

Ira Levin 28:22

This sets an important precedent, which is using the term willful and having to prove willful. I am certain, you know, there’s probably someone out there who does stuff they should not be doing, and I get that. But when you put the word willful into it, it’s a game changer. And I think that’s really what made the difference. They knew they had no case. They couldn’t prove that what I did was willful. And I think it also sets a bad precedent, because it’s like trickle down politics. Biden declares law on FFLs because he can’t stop people from buying guns. So, you get rid of the gun dealers. The state of New Jersey declares war on concealed carry because they lost that case with the Bruen case in New York. Now they’ve passed a bunch of laws that we’re going to have to go fight.

Evan Nappen 29:11

That’s right.

Ira Levin 29:12

ANJRPC, they have their work cut out for them. You know, I’m sure that they’ve already got legislation in the pipeline, ready to fire at that legislation. It’s just a shame that politicians, on one side of the aisle versus the other side of the aisle, will vote on legislation they know is bad. They willfully do it. Knowing it’s not constitutional. In support of their policies.

Evan Nappen 29:37

You know, that’s a great point, Ira. The real willfulness is in these anti-Second Amendment, anti-gun politicians. They’re the ones that are willfully trying to destroy and take away our rights, our guns and our freedoms. And that’s a great point. You’re also right. ANJRPC will be immediately, I am 100% confident, filing to fight the carry law, that so- called Carry Killer bill that passed. Any day now, within nine days of the passage, Murphy is going to sign it. Probably by the time you hear this show, he will have signed it. And I’m sure that the Association will have made its move to fight it in the courts. We have a great weapon to fight it with and that is the Bruen decision. Make sure you belong to your state association, so that you join in the fight with us. I would like to thank Ira for being on the show, Legend Firearms. I just want to remind you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. Page – 10 – of 10

Speaker 3 31:02

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E113_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

First Name *

Select list(s) to subscribe toInnerCircle Membership Yes, I would like to receive emails from Gun Lawyer Podcast. (You can unsubscribe anytime)

Constant Contact Use. Please leave this field blank.

View Details

Episode 112-This Gun Case That May Change EverythingAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 112SUMMARY KEYWORDS

case, firearms, new jersey, expunged, welfare, second amendment rights, point, gun rights, second amendment, permit, denied, guns, gun, firearm, expungement, appeal, interest, state, court, heller

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Louis Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. We have a special guest in the studio today, and I’ve known this special guest for quite a long time. This guest is my brother, Louis Nappen. The reason that Louis is here today is we’re going to be talking about a court case in New Jersey that may change everything. It’s not an exaggeration. We’re going at an issue in our gun laws that is an issue in every gun permit case, Firearms ID Card, Permit to Carry and weapon forfeiture, because it goes directly to the heart of the disqualifiers, what we call the disabilities. We are challenging one of the disabilities that is the most troublesome of them all because it is incredibly subjective. We see it being abused and used to deny citizens’ rights all the time, and we finally have an opportunity here. It’s very exciting and can have tremendous impact.

Evan Nappen 01:38

Now, I want to first thank our sponsor, who is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC, for helping us to get the word out here and to be a proud supporter of our show. This case is really significant. And it’s very interesting as to how it progressed, and the timing of it, given the Bruen decision. First, let me introduce my brother Louis. Louis, how are you today?

Louis Nappen 02:20

I’m fine. Thank you very much.

Evan Nappen 02:21

Good. I’m glad you’re with us to talk about this. Now, Louis did most of the heavy lifting in this case, and it is very interesting because it’s an appeal to the Appellate Division of New Jersey, in which the Appellate Division did something that we have rarely ever seen before. Why don’t you tell us about what occurred here, Louis, in the procedural aspect of this case?

Louis Nappen 02:54

I’ll give you a little bit of the history here. We have a person who applied for a permit to purchase a handgun. He already had a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card, and he wanted some more guns. In New Jersey, you have to apply for each additional handgun, and he applied. He was denied under the clause, the statutory subsection. There are 11 disqualifier subsections in our law, and he was denied to the one that says the issuance should not happen to any person where the issuance would not be in Page – 2 – of 13

the interest of the public health, safety or welfare. That’s the vague, overbroad, how are you supposed to know, clause that he was denied under. It was not in the interest of public health, safety or welfare for him to get handgun permits, even though he already had a Firearms ID Card.

Evan Nappen 04:02

As a matter of fact, he had had a firearms virtual ID card and other handgun permits issued by this same department. Correct?

Louis Nappen 04:11

Yeah.

Evan Nappen 04:12

He had had them since I think 2017. He had had these permits and had been issued, and then he applied.

Louis Nappen 04:22

In 2020, he was denied this way. He appeals, he takes it up to them, and the way it works. He was denied by his police chief, but that’s how it works in Jersey, and then you can appeal to the Superior Court, county for a hearing. Now, when he did that, the state then moved to revoke his Firearm Purchaser ID Card and to compel the sale of his firearms that he already possessed.

Evan Nappen 04:53

Now, before we go further, what was the allegation or what was the basis or the foundation for them even trying to claim that there’s some danger or not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare here? Because he did not have what’s called a per se disqualifier. He was not a convicted felon. He didn’t have a restraining order. There was nothing otherwise that prohibited him from having a firearm. Right?

Louis Nappen 05:20

That’s correct. Yep. No restraining orders, no convictions on his record, none of that. All he had.

Evan Nappen 05:26

What did they rely on? What did they rely on?

Evan Nappen 05:29

Oh, oh, okay. Now, wait a minute. So, he’s being denied now his Second Amendment rights. They’re revoking in de facto revocation to take away his old licenses, permits and try to grab his guns over an expunged matter that they reopened. So, for them to do this, and for the judge to grant it, it must have been incredibly serious. What was expunged? What were these heinous offenses that were expunged that now opening expungement lead to his loss of Second Amendment rights? What were they?

Louis Nappen 05:29 Page – 3 – of 13

They relied on two dismissed and expunged matters. The State motioned that they were aware of this, but they were expunged. The state motioned to open up the expungement, first off, and this judge granted that. Then they used the underlying facts of the expunged dismissed allegations as to

Louis Nappen 06:35

Well, one was, he was alleged to at one point, as I said, both were dismissed. Yeah. To have taken a trailer that was, he thought was abandoned. And he found out, it wasn’t abandoned. It was a trailer hitch, and it got resolved.

Evan Nappen 06:54

So yeah, so we had a theft of a trailer hitch that he thought was abandoned. Okay, what was the second one?

Louis Nappen 07:01

The second was, he was much younger at the time, but he worked in tree service and a woman who refused to pay him for his services. He was regretful, and he threw a log through her back windshield, back in the day, but paid for it. Totally regretful. And that’s when it got dismissed. Okay.

Evan Nappen 07:22

And that was and that was in. That was, he was not in

Louis Nappen 07:27

I want to say, though, she was not in the car or anything, just out of frustration. He did that.

Evan Nappen 07:32

Okay. And that was approximately for all about 10 years, prior to any of this, eight to 10 years prior. Right? I believe so. But he was 21.

Louis Nappen 07:43

Yeah, with his 30s. Correct,

Evan Nappen 07:45

Right, and that he even got it expunged. And everything was dismissed. So, that’s the sole basis, these two incidents from when he was a young, foolish guy, and he got them even expunged. None of them are per se disqualifiers. None of them even raised to a level of felony even then. They were simply what were in New Jersey

Louis Nappen 08:13

Handled in municipal court.

Evan Nappen 08:15

Misdemeanors, what Jersey calls disorderly persons. And by opening up expunged records and going at these two matters in his past, they not only denied his permit, right, and all. But they also sought to take his guns. And they did, didn’t they? Page – 4 – of 13

Louis Nappen 08:36

They did. The judge made him turn them over and get rid of a good amount of his possessions. Then, in the end, it went to the county court, and the judge totally granted everything that the state wanted in this in terms of revoking his F pick, he obviously denied his permits to purchase, compelled the sale of his firearms. Everything.

Evan Nappen 09:04

And this is having permits and guns for a number of years. He never had any problems or issues with the guns that he had. And, and so the section that got utilized here, to cause all this on this most minor of matters, was this public health, safety, welfare, basis for denial. And isn’t that in? That’s one of the disqualifiers in New Jersey law.

Louis Nappen 09:37

Correct. And what’s interesting about that, you want to emphasize, and I think it’s important to emphasize, that it’s not “in the interest of public health, safety or welfare.” Because that’s the analysis goes into that in terms of what’s happened since the Bruen decision. Didn’t want to go there.

Evan Nappen 09:56

And so, we filed an appeal. By the way, this was out of Bergen County, wasn’t it?

Louis Nappen 09:58

Yeah, it was Bergen County in 2020. Believe it or not, this is how long it takes to go through the courts. In 2020, he was denied. In 2021 was, by the time he had his hearing and everything. He filed his appeal, my brief, my initial brief, to the Appellate Division after he lost, he appealed it was in October of 2021. October of 2022 rolls around, and all the briefs have, I’m waiting for a decision to come down on the case. But I’m very thorough in my briefing. And one of my points that I put forward, way prior to the Bruen decision out of the (United States) Supreme Court, was emphasizing how under Heller and McDonald, the public health, safety, not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare should be found unconstitutional. I had preserved that issue at the trial level and on the appellate level. So, I argued, in my brief, that that should be found unconstitutional. Then Bruen comes down, and I get this message from the Appellate Division that they are interested in, said that they are requesting supplemental briefing as to how the Bruen decision affects this particular argument that issuance not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare is or is not constitutional. This is really rare for that to happen, in terms of suddenly being asked to do supplemental briefing.

Evan Nappen 11:40

They not only asked for you and our firm to submit the supplemental briefing.

Louis Nappen 11:45

Yeah, we had ten days to do it, too.

Evan Nappen 11:47

They also invited in the Attorney General, didn’t they? Page – 5 – of 13

Louis Nappen 11:52

They asked the Attorney General to come in as Amicus, which is interesting, because the Attorney General is the State as well as the State Prosecutor being the State. So, at that point, it was kind of two against one here.

Evan Nappen 12:03

Well, they wanted to make the odd fair because they know they’re against us.

Louis Nappen 12:06

And so that’s true. And then. So, we put forward

Evan Nappen 12:13

Then we decided as well, hey, look, you know what, they’re bringing in the Attorney General. We got a hold of as well and spoke to the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, because this issue was very important and affects members and gun owners throughout the state. The Association, themselves, came in as an amicus brief. They submitted a brief on the side of the Second Amendment. They had their brief done by Dan Schmutter, who’s a colleague and excellent Second Amendment attorney as well. So, it ends up that the sides are the Attorney General and the Prosecutor, and on our side is the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs and our firm. All the parties submitted their briefing on the constitutional issue here. The challenge to this clause, this disability that is subjective, and is what we call “the catch all”. We call it the all-inclusive weasel clause.

Louis Nappen 13:22

It is the weasel clause.

Evan Nappen 13:33

It’s a weasel clause because that’s what used to produce denials without having any boundaries, or really any structure. It’s simply the whim, the whim of a judge is basically all it takes.

Louis Nappen 13:50

I’ve handled and you’ve handled several cases, hundreds at least, where they’ve applied this. It’s used broadly. They try to allege it’s not, but it totally is. And it’s for the most I mean. I’ve seen it where a guy, after being frustrated in a verbal argument, went to his basement and took a hammer to his workbench and hammered it loudly. And that’s not in the interest of the public. Or you’ve seen it where they try to allege, he threw a pretzel at me or whatever.

Evan Nappen 14:22

Right, it really is. We’ve actually had that case. So yeah, finally now we see a review that’s going to take place by the Appellate court and where they have taken it the extra step of requesting supplemental briefing, brought in the Attorney General, and we have an amicus from the NRA affiliate, the State Affiliate in New Jersey, the Association of New Jersey Rifle and Pistol Clubs, all filed on this critical issue, because every license, every permit, and weapon forfeiture utilizes the same set of Page – 6 – of 13

disqualifiers where this catchall resides. This is incredibly important. When we come back, we’re going to give you even more of the details of this fight.

Louis Nappen 15:15

Argument.

Evan Nappen 15:17

The argument and how important it is so that you can watch as the decision comes down and it’s going to lay out finally, and we hope once and for all, knock out this atrocious disqualifier that has harmed the gun rights of so many New Jerseyans.

Speaker 3 15:43

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, that deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:58

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 17:14

Okay, welcome back to Gun Lawyer. I’m Evan Nappen, and with me today in the studio is Louis Nappen, my brother. Louis is an attorney with my firm and is our top appellate attorney. He has done just great work on many cases, including winning in the New Jersey Supreme Court, getting a unanimous decision, which was just astounding. When he told me we won and we had the unanimous decision, I was looking out the window for the pigs with wings. But yeah, it happened.

Louis Nappen 17:52

Due process on firearm permit appeals.

Evan Nappen 17:54

It was just great. Great. I also want to thank and take a moment here to thank the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They are like I said a sponsor, and they joined immediately, in terms of, you know, we were in a crazy tight timeframe. But the Association stepped right up and got Dan Schmutter to submit a wonderful amicus brief in this case, so that the gun owners of New Jersey had an organizational representative as well, putting forward the Second Amendment arguments that are so Page – 7 – of 13

vital. This is why I really want to encourage all of you to join the Association. You need to be a member of ANJRPC. If you’re not a member, you’re doing yourself and our rights a disservice. They are the number one gun rights organization in New Jersey. There are other gun rights groups, too, and this is not in any way to disparage them. I’m just telling you that you need to belong to the Association for sure. That’s a must have.

Evan Nappen 19:09

Because not only are they there on the litigation front and standing up for your rights, but also, they’re there in Trenton with a full-time paid lobbyist. The News Alerts go out to members informing of the immediate threats and dangers and even have the ability by simply pushing a button to notify your legislators of our dislike or like of whatever they’re proposing. Of course, in New Jersey normally it’s extreme dislike, and this way you can stay on top of it. You’re really helping these things make a huge difference. And although in New Jersey we have one of the toughest, most difficult areas to fight, we are the front have lines on the Second Amendment in New Jersey. And it is ANJRPC that’s there fighting for you. So, please join. Just go to anjrpc.org.

Louis Nappen 20:14

So, moving right into it. I just want to say we requested oral argument. It was granted, and we had oral argument. We’re expecting a decision shortly from it. But let me now get into the argument that had to be made here. In our brief and also in oral argument to the three-judge panel at the appellate. Now, it’s a little rare to have this many people of course involved just at the Appellate level as opposed to the (New Jersey) Supreme Court or higher. But this is why this case is going to, it’s going to mean something. What we have here is, if you recall, what happened in Bruen. Now, it wasn’t just that. I mean, it’s a wonderful case. But it wasn’t just, they tried to say it was just about carry permits. It’s more than that, because Justice Thomas did a wonderful thing. He put forward a standard of review to beat all standard of reviews.

Louis Nappen 21:10

And what he wrote in the opinion, that is the controlling opinion, is in keeping with Heller, we hold that when the Second Amendment’s plain text covers an individual’s conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct. To justify its regulation, the government may not simply posit that the regulation promotes an important interest. Rather, the government must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with this nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation only if a firearm regulation is consistent with this nation’s historical tradition, may a court conclude that the individual’s conduct falls outside of the Second Amendment’s unqualified command. That’s amazing language.

Louis Nappen 22:01

There are two parts to that, that I particularly attacked, our firm here, in our brief and in our argument. The first part, as I mentioned earlier, it’s important that we notice, what are they denying MU you for here? It’s in the interest of public health, safety or welfare. Yet the Supreme Court has specifically said that government may not simply posit that the regulation promotes an important interest. There you have it. Prima facie, that it should be found unconstitutional. Now, you know, this is of course,

Evan Nappen 22:38 Page – 8 – of 13

because it says it right there. The court is saying you can’t base it on interest and New Jersey’s disqualifier says just that – interest. And yet they still think that this somehow is constitutional.

Louis Nappen 22:51

The Attorney General in his argument actually had the balls, excuse my language, can you actually say, nerve, actually, just because it uses the same word “interest” doesn’t mean that it’s not positing an important interest just because it uses interest.

Evan Nappen 23:17

Just because it says it, doesn’t mean that it says it. Right? It’s like, that’s like isn’t that like one of the 10 commandments of wokeism? Doesn’t matter what it says. Right? Exactly.

Louis Nappen 23:29

I mean, it says it right there. You can’t use promoting an interest. And it’s and you’re saying interest of public health, safety, welfare. That’s exactly. Not only that. It’s the same language. Okay, so that’s first off. So, if they buy that argument. I don’t know. I’ve seen some things happen. What can I tell you? By the way, we didn’t say the name of the case here.

Evan Nappen 23:53

First read the caption in full. The full caption of the case of MU without the initials but glad right without using. Here’s everything that’s at stake here in the appeal is in the title caption of the case. Go ahead.

Louis Nappen 24:13

No joke. Normally you see it’s like State versus MU. This case is, In the matter of the appeal of the denial of MU’s application for a handgun purchase permit & In the matter of the revocation of MU’s Firearms Purchaser Identification Card and compelling the sale of his firearms. That is the title.

Evan Nappen 24:33

And the reason we call it the title is the demonstration of the escalation that can occur when you apply for your gun license and get denied. Then when that got denied, it snowballed to now we want to revoke your Firearms ID Card. Not only do we want to revoke your Firearms ID Card, but also, we want to take your guns. So, they did everything here. They went for the denial, the revocation and taking the guns simply because a man, who had already been licensed, already had a Firearms ID card, already possessed guns with no per se disqualifier, had the nerve to reapply to get an extra handgun purchase permit. That was his right to do. And the entire escalation occurs on this man to disenfranchise his Second Amendment rights and steal his guns.

Louis Nappen 25:25

And that doesn’t even include the separate motion, the prehearing motion, to open up his expungement, which is a whole separate

Evan Nappen 25:31

Which is another separate right, where now you invade what is supposed to be Page – 9 – of 13

Louis Nappen 25:38

deemed not to have occurred.

Evan Nappen 25:39

Right, exactly and been rehabilitated.

Louis Nappen 25:43

You can’t get an expungement unless you are rehabilitated.

Evan Nappen 25:46

Oh, but that doesn’t stop them from wanting to open it up when we’re dealing with guns. Lou, we’re dealing with guns. So, anything flies with the Jersey narrative when it comes to attacking guns, gun owners and gun rights. Go ahead. Tell us more.

Louis Nappen 26:00

So, the first part, of course, is I think it’s unconstitutional on its face. The other part is the fact about the nation’s historical tradition. In Bruen, they say Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them. So, they have to prove that people would lose their Second Amendment rights not because issuance of some permit of or just to lose their rights to firearms, or arms in that for that case, not just firearms, in the interest of public health, safety, and welfare in 1791, when the Second Amendment was adopted, and arguably up to the 14th Amendment in 1868, which incorporates the states cannot deny these rights either. So, they have to find law from that period of our nation’s founding to say that people lost their Second Amendment rights in the interest of public health, safety, welfare without

Evan Nappen 27:07

Even the British wouldn’t have tried that on us.

Louis Nappen 27:11

That’s true.

Evan Nappen 27:12

Well, ridiculous.

Louis Nappen 27:14

And it’s how they understood it then, too. But you have to remember, we’re up against people who believe militia is the same as National Guard and not what it understood to believe it was in 1791 etc. You know, we the people,

Louis Nappen 27:32

Just to also be fair here, because this is important, not only because you filed this appeal and covered all these issues. Then when Bruen came out, this entire issue took on a whole new dimension, and hence the whole battle on this constitutional issue. But in your original appeal, you actually raised 11 separate points, and I just think it’s worth talking about them briefly to see how thorough and just what a Page – 10 – of 13

railroad on this case. So, for example, your point one, in doing this, you have to talk about how the court erred, your talk that it ruled about community caretaking and why did you argue community caretaking as a point? Just really quick. What is the significance of that?

Louis Nappen 28:25

Well, that comes from another Supreme Court case that they’re not allowed to just take firearms under alleged community caretaking standard and that’s basically an amendment

Evan Nappen 28:40

It’s a Fourth Amendment violation, isn’t it?

Louis Nappen 28:42

That’s correct.

Evan Nappen 28:43

Fourth Amendment. Then in the second point, you raise public health, safety, welfare as not authorizing seizure or forfeiture.

Louis Nappen 28:52

Yeah, the state never moved under anything that was an official forfeiture motion. There are different ways you can forfeit or obtain firearms. There are restraining orders. There’s Extreme Risk Protection Orders, better known as red flag laws. There’s a duty to warn laws. There’s different. Contraband, if you use it in a crime. None of this was here. They’re just saying what kind of. By the way, public health, safety, welfare is not one of the listed elements under the statute that make you a certain person not to possess firearms.

Evan Nappen 29:28

Right! So, in other words, there’s criminal prohibitors where if you’re a convicted felon, you can also be criminally prosecuted if you have a gun. But public health, safety, welfare isn’t a criminal prohibitor. It’s only found administratively. Yet, they abuse it to this degree. Then you also in your third point, you talk about the licensing statute itself, you can’t add things to the form, including prohibiting and adding requirements.

Louis Nappen 30:00

Let me talk about that briefly. Just about that. Interesting about that is that was one of my published cases that I am very proud of, which eliminated a lot of extra bureaucratic nonsense. Ten years ago, at this point, probably. I had won a case. I actually won three appellate division (appeals), and one of them got published about having no added forms. It’s only the state mandated forms, and they’re supposed to be consistent among all the municipalities. No rogue police chiefs or condition about this or that coming down the pike. But in this case, what are they saying a condition of this is? That you have to give up your firearm rights. I mean, your firearms themselves, or whatever else, that you have to open up your expungement. These are added conditions that are not in the statute.

Evan Nappen 30:57 Page – 11 – of 13

And that’s counter to case law right there. Then point five, you talked about Cunningham, and that is a case in New Jersey, that quasi seems to be something that the prosecutors love to try to utilize to justify taking guns without due process. But that’s also something you argue is not applicable. Then in point five, you talk about search and compelled sale or destruction, and that’s unlawful because it offends equity. How is it an equity issue?

Louis Nappen 31:31

Well, equity of course, a forfeiture.

Evan Nappen 31:33

There we go. Simple. Law School 101. Isn’t it? Right away. Then you argue in point six, that there was irreparable harm since they did what they did with the guns and his gun rights. And then in seven, you raise something very interesting. You raise about being denied a jury trial. Tell us about that. What’s that about?

Louis Nappen 31:56

Well, there’s a case that came down about how if property is. A woman who had her car taken and she wanted, it’s a 1990 Honda, it’s an older case, said that she’s entitled to a jury trial if the state moves for forfeiture. Well, firearms are property. And if you have a judge that you know is going to be going this way, I’d rather have a jury make that, as be the tryer of facts and apply it to the facts. So, why isn’t he entitled to a jury on his property just like anybody else is, if they’re going to accept, which I don’t think it’s correct, that they’re allowed to even forfeit or move for forfeiture on his firearms.

Evan Nappen 32:36

Then in point eight, you said that the Court in Bergen required the petitioner to register with the court how many and what types of firearms he possesses. What was that all about?

Louis Nappen 32:43

When he first came up there, that judge said, “Well, we want these firearms out of your hands while we’re deciding this case. So, he had to tell them what firearms he possessed,

Evan Nappen 33:00

In effect was a de facto registration, wasn’t it?

Louis Nappen 33:04

That’s right. That’s what that is. I would call it that.

Evan Nappen 33:07

Then you said the court also erred in regarding the

Louis Nappen 33:14

public, that he is not even a danger to the public health, safety, welfare, even if except that standard, write of course. Page – 12 – of 13

Evan Nappen 33:20

Right. Of course. Then even factually, how do these two minor DP matters that ended up all expunged and ancient history? How does that in any way actually make him an actual danger, which isn’t really ever explained there because it’s so subjective. Then you talk about in point 10, New Jersey’s restriction is an offense to Heller and McDonald. This is where in point 10, you went heavily into all the different constitutional arguments at the time that was pre Bruen. Right?

Louis Nappen 33:57

Yeah, I preserved this from day one. In fact, most cases, if not all, it’s well worth raising the Second Amendment to make sure it’s raised.

Evan Nappen 34:05

You raised it thoroughly as you could at the time. And that’s where the supplemental and then the 11th point was just procedural.

Louis Nappen 34:13

Well, it’s just a procedural, but I try to protect my client by trying to make sure his name doesn’t get too much out there because it’s effect.

Evan Nappen 34:23

Right. And so that’s very good. So, that was the initial brief. That was it. Was it 77 pages with the appendix? Just hammering with that, and then they want supplemental, which was great in the light of Bruen, that’s brought us to this battle right now. The oral arguments have already been heard. The briefs are in, and we are now waiting for this decision. If we can just knock out this arbitrary, this subjective, this tool of disenfranchisement of Second Amendment rights that has been on the books in New Jersey, it will help so many gun owners and be a really wonderful day for the empowerment of our Second Amendment rights.

Louis Nappen 35:13

Let me just say. There is a third aspect that we’re also arguing that interest, not in the interest of public health, safety, safety, welfare, constitutes an unconstitutional balancing test. And that’s important to note. I’ve been arguing this, because of Heller saying, you can’t have a balancing test. In this case, the balance they’re trying to say, your individual, natural, fundamental right, to defend yourself and to arm yourself against this nebulous public interest. And that’s the balance that courts are balancing when they do this. And you’re not supposed to have a balancing test for this right at all.

Evan Nappen 35:58

It’s almost like means end scrutiny, which the Court has completely rejected.

Evan Nappen 36:03

They said it’s one step too many. You can’t go there. And yet New Jersey has consistently tried to utilize that as well. But that is also barred, done, dead, by Bruen. This is extremely exciting and can’t wait. Page – 13 – of 13

Louis Nappen 36:03

That right.

Louis Nappen 36:21

This dates back to 1968 with the Burton case where they found that public health, safety, welfare constitutional, because it wasn’t yet incorporated. And they’re talking about militias, which is National Guard, not individual rights.

Evan Nappen 36:36

Well, that’s where the Bruen case has completely gutted the entire foundation of New Jersey’s gun laws, because the Burton v. Sills case is where they decided that the Second Amendment did not apply at all to New Jersey, and they viewed gun rights as strictly a privilege, not a right. They are in fact, dead wrong, and now, the gun laws that were passed with this belief that it is simply a privilege, and they could do whatever the hell they wanted. Well, those days are coming to an abrupt end. It’s going to take victory after victory, and that’s what we’re working on right here, with the MU case. So, folks, stay tuned. I want to thank Louis for joining us today, and I want to thank ANJRPC as a sponsor of the show. Please make sure you join. Go to anjrpc.org. Let me just remind you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 37:43

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E112_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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Episode 111- Bi Partisan Voluntary Gun BanAlso Available OnPodcast TranscriptGun Lawyer Episode 111SUMMARY KEYWORDS

new jersey, gun, explosive, law, bill, gun rights, suicide, fight, people, rights, gun owners, anti, evan, disenfranchise, buy, firearm, push, destructive, gun laws, means

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. I recently read a very interesting article, and then I’ve seen more information about it. About what is being pushed as the bipartisan voluntary gun ban. Before I get into that, I want to thank you all for being loyal listeners. I particularly want to thank our sponsor of the show, which is the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC, which is the state NRA affiliate in New Jersey, fighting for our gun rights. In New Jersey, it’s vital that you belong to the Association, as we fondly call it. Now, this interesting push of this bill is a little bit of a twist on what is normally put forward. The idea behind this is to have a Federal law where you can voluntarily place yourself on a list so that you cannot buy a gun. (H.R. 8361 – “Preventing Suicide Through Voluntary Firearm Purchase Delay Act”) (https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/8361/text?r=4&s=1) You literally impose a gun ban on yourself. This is an actual Federal bill that has some bipartisan support, and it is being pushed under the guise of suicide prevention. So, if somebody, in theory, knows that they are suicidal and that they themselves cannot trust themselves to not want to go out and buy a gun and off themselves, they can, in advance, put themselves on a list so that a gun cannot be sold to them. In other words, making themselves essentially NICS denied on the purchase when they go to buy.

Evan Nappen 02:34

Now, of course, the whole thing is absurd. First of all, the push on suicide and prevention of suicide is, on one hand, something any one of us can sympathize with. We don’t want to see people killing themselves. You want to see people not invoke what is called the “long term solution to short term problems”. And I get that. But, as usual, the anti-gun folks, the anti-Second Amendment folks, seize on anything they can seize upon. And here, they want to just make suicide about guns. They’ve pushed programs in the past and “the means matter”. In other words, go after guns to stop suicide. Now, even when you stop for a minute, if someone is bent on killing themselves, there’s only about 1000 ways to do it. A gun is one way, but are we going to also put yourself on the list so you can’t cross bridges? Are you going to put yourself on a list so you can’t buy rope or any kind of wire? Are you going to put yourself on a list so that you can’t run your car in your garage with the fumes? At what point can you stop these various means which is endless ways to kill yourself?

Evan Nappen 04:09 Page – 2 – of 7

Instead, they want to focus it on the gun because it becomes another mechanism to go after guns. They particularly love to push suicide in states and areas where the murder rates are low and gun ownership is high. Then they go, “well we got to prevent suicides” so we need to get gun control here because they can’t sell the crime theme. Although today it’s not so important even to sell any theme, I guess. Because, particularly in Jersey, they’re just coming straight out now and say, “we’re here to control you”. It’s not even about crime or anything, but in other places where they’re still trying to have some guise, a scheme, then suicide prevention is one of the things they will try to abuse. And so, we now see this bill, this bipartisan so-called bill, to create this registry that you can put yourself into. Now, good luck getting yourself out of this, should you ever do it. But put yourself into this so you bar yourself. I guess if you’re masochistic, too, this is a wonderful thing. You just can’t stand having all these rights. I wish there was a way I could just end the having rights, like the right to have guns. Maybe there should be a list, so I lose my right to free speech. Because who knows what I might say? Or lose my right to remain silent or lose my other right. It’s amazing to even think we’re going to set up a law so that you cannot ever invoke your rights in whatever right this law wants to focus on.

Evan Nappen 06:01

Even if we look at this and say, hey, you know what? This is really well intended. This bill is just pure of heart. This bill is there so that individuals, you know, and if it saves just one life, it’s worth it. You know, we’re going to hear that crap. I mean, you have one life, and it’s worth it. Except when we talk about carry and your ability to defend yourself where we are going to save many lives, that’s not worth it, of course. It’s never worth it. But anything else where we can take away liberty and get bans and it saves one life, well, that’s gotta be worth it. It can save a life. But again, if this is pure of heart, and really giving it all the best intention, the problem is, well, there’s a famous quote about good intentions. That’s what the road to hell is paved with. And why is that said in that way? Well, I’ll tell you. It’s simple. Because once you have, if you were ever to have, this law, that you can sign away your Second Amendment rights and never be able to buy a gun again. And it’s being done for this wonderful, noble, pure hearted reason of trying to stop suicide, who can argue with that? What will happen is you will see mega abuse, mega abuse, of this list, because once the mechanism is in place where individuals can take themselves out of ever being able to be a gun owner. Once that mechanism is there, then you’ll start seeing it employed in all kinds of other areas.

Evan Nappen 07:50

For example, in a civil suit, let’s say, where an individual is suing another, and they say we want you to give up your gun rights if you want to settle this. We want you on this list for whatever reason, maybe divorces. I want you to give up your gun rights. You need to sign. For you to visit your children, and I’m scared of guns. I don’t ever want you to have a gun. You need to get on this no gun buy list. The only way I’ll be satisfied and so you can see your kids. Or employment. Employers could say we’re not going to hire you unless we know that you will not possess guns. We want you on the gun list where you sign yourself in that you will not be able to buy a gun. That’s the only way we’re going to hire you because we don’t want anybody that could possibly own a gun working for us. Or even on criminal matters where you don’t lose gun rights like misdemeanors. You are offered a plea bargain, but there’s a catch. You can take the misdemeanor as opposed to the felony, but we want you on the no by gun list. That’s the only way we’re going to settle it. Page – 3 – of 7

Evan Nappen 09:07

So, once this is out there, then it becomes a tool of anti-gun disenfranchisement. And that’s always what they’re about. They’re always about disenfranchising us of our gun rights. And here’s another mechanism to do it. So, now they essentially sucker Republicans into supporting it under this, how could you be against trying to do something to stop suicide ploy? Then once it’s in place, oh, now we start seeing it get abused. And you say, well, how can you say that Evan and why? Because I’ve seen gun law after gun law that was supposed to be limited and so well intended, end up abused beyond belief. Where the law itself on its face, there are people debating it. Whether it should be law. Whether you should approve it. Vote for it. They all think it’s going to be reasonably interpreted and what happens? It becomes unreasonable. Just look at how in New Jersey, the disqualifier, “not in the interest of public health, safety, welfare”, is being abused by judges and issuing authorities to deny people for the dumbest, stupidest, most ridiculous reasons. But I’m sure when the law was being debated, and well, how could you want someone that would not be in the interest of public health, safety and welfare” to have a gun? Come on. Be reasonable. And what do we see? Abuse, abuse, abuse.

Evan Nappen 10:54

It’s always taking that inch and then making it a mile. This is like a constant sucker game, constantly fooling Republicans and other gun owners into giving up their rights. It seems like all they keep coming up with are new gambits. New gambits so you can disenfranchise more people. Hey, let’s ban those on the terrorist watch list. No one can be for terrorists. Except, how do you even get on or off the terrorist watchlist? Nobody knows. But sure. Sounds good. Hey, how about we limit just handguns? And then, of course, it’s no longer about handguns, because then it’s assault firearms. Then it’s why would you want that? Every day, some other new. Magazines that hold too many rounds are the problem. Every day, we got to keep salami tactics, salami tactics – take a slice, take a slice, take a slice. So, here’s their newest, most creative approach yet. Let’s see if we can get a law so that we can get individuals to voluntarily disenfranchise themselves and give up their right to keep and bear arms. I think we can find people that stupid, don’t you? So, here we are. Make sure you let your legislators know that you do not want to have any kind of law or mechanism on the books where individuals can voluntarily have their rights taken away from them, permanently. And then be abused and used and grow into some other monstrosity that has nothing to do with what it originally was sold on. Where there’s no limitations here. There never is, come on. Make sure you let them know that you’re not in favor of seeing this.

Evan Nappen 13:07

Plus, there are even just practical problems here. Even if someone’s on the list, how do you know if they’re on the list if it’s a private sale? How are you going to even know this? If someone’s on a no buy list, that just means they can’t buy from a dealer anyway. You tell me they can’t get a gun anywhere. Look, even with that, you can still get black powder firearms. There’s no dealer license. There’s no NICS check in most of the United States. Of course, if you buy it in New Jersey, they treat it as modern, but outside of New Jersey, it isn’t. You can still commit suicide just as easy with a black powder gun as you can with a smokeless powder gun. Then, of course, you still have every other means we’ve talked about. So, what it’s really about is, big surprise, gun control. Taking away rights, and figuring out the next scam, the next invention, to somehow keep accomplishing the goal of stealing our rights. Stay vigilant, folks, and make sure you really think about these things when you hear about them being proposed. They sound so reasonable and for such good cause. The more it’s like that, the more you Page – 4 – of 7

know to watch out. When we come back, I have an interesting letter here dealing with some fun stuff that goes boom.

Speaker 3 14:47

For over 30 years Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 16:01

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 16:08

You know this fight we’re in for our freedom, for our rights, is an amazing time. Really, right now. It’s an amazing time because the anti-gun movement is apparently just empowered and invigorated to try to take us down at every turn and to pass law after law despite the obvious unconstitutionality of these laws. We’re really getting to this apocalyptic battle coming up, particularly in New Jersey, where carry has been a goal for so long, for us to finally be able to get carry in New Jersey and not be victims anymore, but in fact defenders and to be able to have the most effective means to defend ourselves. And here, the antis after Bruen where we finally get rid of the block, the main obstacle, to a citizen, an honest citizen, getting a carry license, which is the old “justifiable need”. That was the anti-gun gambit of the past to make you have to show that you need to use deadly force before you need to use deadly force.

Evan Nappen 17:45

But with that being removed by the Bruen decision, what happens? Jersey comes back with the most egregious, most insane gun bill ever proposed. No exaggeration. It’s not hyperbole. Throwing everything at us but the kitchen sink, as the saying goes, to block individuals from carry. Sensitive places, mandating insurance, and adding all kinds of requirements and obstacles and burdens. Anything they can think of is jammed packed into this bill to somehow stop, admittedly to stop law-abiding citizens from having the right to defend themselves with the most effective means. This battle, though, has been a long time coming. We now are finally at the point where you know what, bring it on! Bring on this bill A4769 bill, bring it on. Put everything in it, as they say. Take your best shot. Because we’re going to take that best shot that you are throwing at us, and we are throwing back at you our best shot. We’re going to litigate this puppy, and you know what? We’re going to win. And when we win this one, that’s going to be the ultimate victory. Because they’ve tried it all in this bill. Once we crush them Page – 5 – of 7

here, once we destroy them in this bill, then we’ll finally have carry the way it should be. This is the final test. The final hurdle. I really believe that.

Evan Nappen 19:37

Look, I’m not saying the anti-gunners are going to stop trying to mess with us. Of course, they are. But once we have this victory of this magnitude over a bill this egregious and this atrocious, even if it takes this bill getting to the Supreme Court. This is the hurdle. This is the final one to really get our freedom established. And I’m glad that we got to this point. I’m amazed that we’re able to get to this point that we were able to get this. But in order for us to win, in order for us to fight this fight and have this battle, we have to have an organization behind us. We have to have forces on our side, ready immediately to bring this challenge, and to fight this glorious fight that we’re going to have. And I’m going to tell you right now, that’s why you need to belong to the sponsor of this show, the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. They will be there. They will be on the spot, like the Minutemen of the old days. They are going to be there seeking and litigating immediately when this law comes down. They will have the gun owners’ backs in New Jersey, and they’ll be in the glorious fight. We will see this battle unfold, and you need to be part of it. You need to be a member of the state Association. They have full-time paid lobbyists down in Trenton, and they keep you alert of everything going on in real time. They send out great alerts so that you can let the legislators in your area know, using the top computer programs and such through email that you can easily just push the button and it goes to the right people with the right message. It makes a difference. They have a fantastic newsletter, and it is our union of brothers and sisters in the fight for our Second Amendment rights in New Jersey. You must belong to this group if you believe in the Second Amendment and what it means and its effect, and how you want it to be a force in New Jersey. This is the primary group, folks. The Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, ANJRPC.

Evan Nappen 22:28

It’s going to be very exciting here. I mean, I know it sucks on one hand that we have to fight this fight and that these people on the other side are so idiotic, and stubborn, and just full of hate for us. I know. But you know what? We’re going to fight the good fight. And that’s what life’s about here. Life is always conflict and fighting. And here, the good guys can win it. ANJRPC is where you find the good guys right there, and you can be part of that. You need to be part of that. So, please, if you’re not a member of ANJRPC, you need to join today. (anjrpc.org) You’ll see what I mean. I wouldn’t steer you wrong. I’m a Life Member. Now, it’s critical. It’s the most important thing you can do in New Jersey fighting for your rights.

Evan Nappen 23:34

So, I got an interesting letter here to the Ask Evan section, which I always love to get. It says hi, Evan, I love your podcast. I’ve been a loyal listener from the first episode. Well, thank you very much, and I do appreciate that. Is it legal to possess Tannerite in New Jersey? Is the use of Tannerite legal in New Jersey? Does New Jersey have laws regarding other types of reactive or exploding targets? Thank you for all you do and for providing the 2A community with the information necessary to keep us in the good grace of the law. Regards, Lou. Well, thank you, Lou. That’s a really good question, and I know Tannerite can be a lot of fun. It is one of the great recreational uses of explosives that are out there. But the question is what is Tannerite? And is it legal in New Jersey? Page – 6 – of 7

Evan Nappen 24:44

Well, Tannerite is a brand name, and it’s a type of explosive that is made from ammonium nitrate, ammonium perchlorate, and powdered aluminum, which aren’t explosives on their own, but are explosive when they’re combined. When you shoot them with a high powered, high velocity round, it’s called a binary explosive, and when you do that, it goes boom. It is something where if you don’t mix it and you don’t hit it with that type of a round, then it’s safe and it won’t explode. But once it is mixed, then it can make some pretty impressive noise, smoke, and explosive bang. And so, it’s become very popular. I guess technically what you have is it comes essentially with an oxidizer is basically what’s going on. And once you mix it, then you shoot it. That’s where you can get that explosive to go. The question here is, is Tannerite, it’s sold a lot in the US, all different places, sold specifically for the purpose of shooting and making it go bang for fun at target shooting. What about in New Jersey, specifically? Here’s where you can have a number of concerns, which I’m sure you’re not surprised to learn about in New Jersey. First of all, there is an issue right off the bat with prohibited persons possessing Tannerite even under federal law. If you’re a convicted felon or someone who’s otherwise a prohibited person for guns, then you can also be a prohibited person for possession of explosive materials. So, that right away just federally does create an entire class of persons that should not have anything to do with Tannerite.

Evan Nappen 27:18

But assuming you’re not otherwise a prohibited person but simply someone who lives in New Jersey, which is very similar to being a prohibited person because you’re living in New Jersey and the laws are so strict, and most people say anything that’s fun in Jersey, they try to ban it. At least when it comes to the stuff we like. And unfortunately, Tannerite is no exception, at least in terms of the risk that you could face. The rub comes in New Jersey, specifically under what is going to be, and this is in theory where you could get charged if you’re using Tannerite. Now I know that it’s a little vague out there and some people use it and get away with it. I hear you, but if the government, if the state wants to go after you, is there something they could charge you with? Yes, there is and what they would charge you with is possession of a destructive device. That would be what most likely you would face.

Evan Nappen 28:35

Destructive devices under New Jersey’s firearm and weapons law is under NJS 2C:39-3.c. A destructive device is, in its definition, “. . . any device, instrument or object designed to explode or produce uncontrolled combustion, including any explosive or incendiary bomb, mine or grenade.” So, there’s a very broad stroke as to what a destructive device is. Now New Jersey even goes further and defines “Explosive” as well. New Jersey defines explosive under NJS2C:39-1. That’s where all the definitions are found. It’s under small letter e., and it says, “e. ‘Explosive’ means any chemical compound or mixture that is commonly used or possessed for the purpose of producing an explosion and which contains any oxidizing and combustible material or other ingredients in such proportions, quantities or packing that ignition by fire, by friction, by concussion or by detonation of any part of the compound or mixture may cause such a sudden generation of highly heated gases that the resultant gaseous pressures are capable of producing destructive effects on contiguous objects.”

Evan Nappen 30:13 Page – 7 – of 7

And that is pretty much what Tannerite does. We could have a battle of experts maybe trying to distinguish it out in some way. But essentially, it’s going to boil down to a jury question. It seems with the State doing demonstrations of Tannerite for the jury, and with what may have particularly happened in whatever the particular case where they’re charging that possession, I would have to advise against Tannerite in New Jersey. You can see based on destructive device and explosive and the definitions, how broad and encompassing they are. And unfortunately, you’re taking a risk. You’re taking a chance. As much fun as it is to have a target go boom, it’s not worth your getting involved in New Jersey’s criminal justice system. The harsh, extreme, draconian penalties that come along with it. Possession of destructive devices in New Jersey is a crime of the Third Degree. You are risking five years in state prison so that you can go bang at the target range, at the other end of the range other than your gun going bang.

Evan Nappen 31:33

So, you have to really be careful here. You need to be discreet and conservative. I love the idea of our freedom and not having to worry about these things. But unfortunately, I see every day what happens to good people in New Jersey. Good people that had no intention of getting involved in the criminal justice system; yet there they are. They are looking at having their futures destroyed, their families destroyed, their finances destroyed. Their hopes and dreams destroyed over New Jersey’s aggressive enforcement of its firearm and weapons laws. And I don’t want to see any of you become a victim of New Jersey’s gun laws. So, don’t give them the opportunity to victimize you. Play it smart. Again, I’d like to thank ANJRPC as our sponsor. Please make sure you’re a member. Join today. I want to remind you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 32:51

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by email at Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

Downloadable PDF TranscriptGun Lawyer S2 E111_Transcript
About The HostEvan Nappen, Esq.Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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