Interference Cast – Protrusive Dental Podcast: Recent Episodes
Jaz Gulati
Why are principals and associates always at loggerheads with each other? Why can it be almost impossible to find the right associates to work at our amazing practice, but also almost impossible to find that amazing practice to work at as an associate?
Join myself and Dr Sarika Shah on this episode where we learn more about self leadership and the ways to prioritise our values to help us find the right working relationships and places of work to be a part of. Let’s figure out how to bring all members of a team together and create the zen we are all in search for while working in our day to day lives.
https://youtu.be/-ua1PAB6A90Watch IC054 on YoutubeProtrusive Dental Pearl:
Be willing to accept rejection. A ‘no’ from a patient today is often a yes tomorrow. Plant seeds for high quality dentistry and you will find yourself harvesting many of these seeds at a later date. Those who fear rejection routinely offer less than their best, which cheats patients out of rightfully making their own economic decisions – inspired by Dr Lane Ochi (the ORIGINAL Dental Geek!)
Check out Flourish as a Female: https://www.flourishasafemale.com/
Use discount code ‘protrusive’ (No financial interest)
Highlights of this Episode:
02:18 Protrusive Dental Pearl
04:30 Introduction – Dr Sarika Shah
10:10 Transition to Private Dentistry
13:40 Practice Ownership
17:20 Managing the Practice
24:55 Internal Leadership
29:40 Principals vs Associates Friction
41:56 Women in Dentistry
47:15 Supportive Partners
55:25 Top Advice from Sarika
58:28 Flourish
This episode is eligible for 1 CE credit via the quiz on the Protrusive Guidance App.
This episode meets GDC LEARNING OUTCOMES A and B
AGD Subject Code 550 Practice Management and Human Relations
Aim:
To explore the importance of self-leadership and effective communication in building successful relationships between dental associates and principals, enhancing teamwork, and optimising practice performance.
Dentists will be able to:
- Identify key principles of self-leadership and apply them to improve personal and professional development within their practice.
- Understand the impact of effective communication and aligned values on maintaining strong, respectful relationships between associates and principals in a dental setting.
- Develop strategies to enhance emotional intelligence, ensuring improved patient care and better collaborative relationships in their practice environment.
If you liked this episode, be sure to check out IC025 – Parenthood and Dentistry
“Defensive Dentistry and the fear culture is the number 1 cause of anxiety amongst Dentists”
How can we instead foster a culture where we can focus on growth and supporting each other?
Does Dentistry have a social media problem?
https://youtu.be/wsiENbuIXcEWatch IC053 on YoutubeJoin us on this episode with Dr Mehy Lo-Presti as we navigate dentistry and social media, the pros and cons of using the online world as part of our portfolio and how we can remove anxiety through effective communication.
2 Events to Attend:
DentoRama 18th October
Treatment Planning Symposium (Hybrid Event) 16th Nov
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this Episode:
02:05 Introduction – Dr Mehy Lo-Presti
06:42 Mehy Early On
12:04 Dento-Rama
15:30 Social Media in Dentistry
20:35 Life Before Social Media
21:25 Social Media is a Business
23:40 What Causes Anxiety for Dentists?
29:45 Overcoming the Fear Factor
34:45 Fast Tracking to Success
41:20 Wrapping Up
47:14 Booking the Event and Getting in Touch
This episode is eligible for 0.75 CE credit via the quiz on Protrusive Guidance.
GDC LEARNING OUTCOMES: A
AGD Code 770 (Self Improvement)
Dentists will be able to:
- Gain insights into how social media affects clinical practice, patient perceptions, and professional image, learning how to use these platforms responsibly.
- Manage the pressures of online validation, minimising the impact on their mental health and maintaining a healthy work-life balance.
- Develop stronger communication methods both online and offline, ensuring clearer patient education, reducing complaints, and fostering better relationships within the dental team.
For the full educational experience, our Ultimate Education Plan gives you access to all our courses, webinars, and exclusive monthly content. This includes videos on Overlay preps and the famous ‘Vertipreps for Plonkers’ series.
If you liked this episode, check out IC035 – Best Practices in Social Media for Dentists
Click below for full episode transcript:Teaser: It depends again, what you want to show, who you want to be in social media. I always have this debate. I asked this many times in my events. Is it okay to share your personal life and your professional life at the same time? And some people will say yes. And, but there are consequences of that. And the consequences is that-
Teaser:
I don’t believe in fast tracks. I don’t believe in that things can go very quick because you’re going to miss a lot of learning in the process. So I think exploring and making mistakes and allowing yourself to fail. It’s something that. It will make you grow way faster. People are happy in their jobs when they feel that they are treated as adults.
And this is something I learned from the employees from Google and Netflix and all these super fancy offices. They understood that people don’t care if you give them free food, they have a gym, you have cinema, you have all this super cool things in their office. So if you don’t treat them as adults and you don’t give them this freedom, they won’t be happy.
Jaz’s Introduction:
What’s the number one thing holding you back as a clinician? What’s holding you back from growing as a dentist and actually sleeping well at night time? It is an F word. Me and my guest today, Dr. Mehy Lo-Presti, we believe that fear is holding us back. When all of our decision making and all of our judgments and our communications are processed through this filter of fear and our dentistry is fear driven and therefore defensive. This is what may thought was the number one contributor of anxiety for dentists.
Hello, Protruserati, I’m Jaz Gulati, and welcome back to the Protrusive Dental Podcast. This is an interference cast, where we discuss more of the non clinical themes, which are super important, because we touch on communication, we touch on fulfillment, and we also touch on social media, because we can’t avoid it. Is there a place on social media for us all? Should we all be on there? And how do we conduct ourselves on social media? And how do we avoid the negative stuff on social media? I. e. the anxiety that social media itself actually brings.
This episode is still eligible for CPD or CE credits. There is one CE credit or one hour of enhanced CPD, and the AGD code for this one is 770. That’s self improvement. And I truly think if you make it to the end of this podcast, you will feel so uplifted.
You will appreciate that the themes we discuss on this episode are so real, so current, and they’re the kind of things that just need to be discussed more in dentistry. Two events that I recommend on the back of this podcast is October 18th Dentorama by the Global Dental Collective. This is like a combination of theatre, comedy and dental debate for the entire dental team.
That’s in London and also in London on 16th of November is the Treatment Planning Symposium. This is where Lincoln Harris and Dr. Michael Frazis will be coming from Australia to London and I’ll be joining them as well to talk all about failure and then Lincoln will take over with a treatment planning masterclass.
We’ve got a live patient consultation plan, like an unseen case for Linc, as well as asking the sauciest and the hottest questions on the live panel debate. For both those events, I’ll put the link in the show notes. Now let’s join the main podcast and I’ll catch you in the outro.
Main Episode
Dr. Mehy Lo-Presti, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast. I’ve been following you for a while. I don’t know if you remember the first time I actually met you, right? Was that, it was a Pascal Magne. I think it was in Glasgow. I think, right. It was a BACD and then you were there with extra Rupert Munkhouse, right? And I was like interviewing you, right? And then that’s when I first got exposed to you.
And then I didn’t realize you were just like mega superstar. Then I see you on the stage. You’re like, gosh, I don’t want to say Jerry Springer, but like the male Oprah Winfrey, you’re just like completely ruling it. And now here we are recording today. So for those who don’t know about you, Mehy tell us about yourself.
[Mehy]
Wow. Wow. That’s, what an intro actually, no, the expectations are very high, maybe not as funny, but yeah, I can manage an audience.
[Jaz]
Edinburgh.
[Mehy]
Well, yeah, that’s true. We met in Edinburgh, right? It was at the BACD and then you were recording and interviewing people and then I already was following you because I think you have one of the best educating content in the dental world.
So the pleasure is mine. Well, I’m a dentist. I was born and raised in Spain. I practice in London now. And basically I got to the point where dentistry was a struggle for me. I got a lot of people around here and I found healthcare events very boring in general. So I needed to find a way to make them more fun.
I needed to find a way to also talk about everything that goes around dentistry that can help us to have a happier-
[Jaz]
What aspect of it did you struggle with most? So the common ones we hear is, just like the clinical, the big step that we have from dental school to real world, that’s a huge knowledge gap, right? And then you realize actually, in dental school, you really barely scratched the surface, right? And which is very disheartening to all our young listeners. I know, but that’s the real world. And, or was it the managing expectations of patients or was it just transition to adulting? What aspect of it did you find trickiest?
[Mehy]
I think what creates a stress in ourselves, it’s the not knowing what is going to happen. I’m not having a hundred percent control of what is going to happen in any scenario, right? And in dentistry, especially in the first years. This is very common. You don’t know how well your treatment is going to go because you’re not as good. You don’t know how the patient will react. You don’t manage your team that well. You take your work to home. So it’s a never-
[Jaz]
You own the patient’s problems, which is something I talk about. You end up owning the patient’s problems. A lot of young dentists, people still do it all throughout their career. But that for me was very peak when I was a newly qualified, this patient had this really tough decision to make between a root canal and extraction. And I felt it was me having to make a decision. I take that home with me, maybe in my stomach in bed, even like a minor thing like that, or a patient has a dry socket and it’s almost as though you had the dry socket.
And this is a sign of a caring practitioner, so anyone’s resonating with this, it’s kind of a good thing that you have that compass inside you and you are sympathetic, you’re empathetic. But we must learn to detach ourselves and be there to guide the patient in their journey, but not to own their problems.
[Mehy]
A hundred percent. And not having those tools to do so was basically what took me to have the decision to make the decision to like, okay, maybe this is not for me. And especially after COVID, like COVID and going back in those conditions that we went, having all this stress that what you already have, it wasn’t great.
And then I realized that I needed help. I spoke with colleagues that had the same issues. I did some courses I started working on myself. I left that black hole, I would say. And then I go, okay, we need to speak about this. And when we did this, our first event, which was almost three years ago, there was not many people talking about mental health in dentistry, probably where the first event, actually, we were just bringing this onto the table.
And it was amazing to realize that actually the whole industry was having the same issues. And then figures came out and then you realize that, wow, actually. I’m happy in this profession, so there’s must be something that we need to do.
[Jaz]
Tell us a bit about you now in your working situation. What are the kind of, what does Mehy like to practice? What kind of a dentist are you? What do you love most about dentistry? What do you hate most about dentistry? Tell me about you as a dentist who kind of took this break or a pause. But then now you are re reengaged in it, but you also have this second purpose, right?
We all have this purpose dentistry, but I love your second purpose of actually creating community similar to me in a way, create a community. You’re making it a safe place for everyone to talk about these issues and you’re bettering everyone’s mental health in my view, as I see it, but you do far more than that. So tell us more about the yin and the yang, this mix of two things that you do, the clinical and the nonclinical.
[Mehy]
Well, the clinical, I’m enjoying a lot of my work right now, but I started not knowing what to do. Like I was not even sure I wanted to do dentistry and I’m from a background of doctors. So it was probably the safe bet in my case.
[Jaz]
You’re the black sheep. You’re the failure.
[Mehy]
Exactly. And I always say like, my dad is Palestinian. So we have three options. We need a doctor, lawyer or a failure. And I was clearly, I remember telling my dad, I wanted to do fashion illustration. And it was like, no, we don’t do fashion illustration. I mean, first he said, I don’t even know what’s that, but we don’t do that. So you can probably be a dentist. Might be easier than being a doctor.
[Jaz]
You use the F word basically. That in a way is also an F word.
[Mehy]
I mean, yeah, I knew exactly that was like, Oh my God, what I’ve done to reserve that. But anyway, so I finished my career and I didn’t really know which specialty I liked and I didn’t know much about, I wasn’t exposed to much about to all these different options. So I started doing perio, a full year periodontist, then I saw that, okay, maybe blood and soft tissues is not what I wanted.
[Jaz]
Let me pause you there, mate. Let me understand this. Did you do a four year perio program? You did a program, a full perio program?
[Mehy]
Yeah, it was like a pre, so to get into the masters in Spain, it was a three years master. It was one of the hardest perio programs in the world, which is directed by Mariano Sanz, that he trained people like Miguel Stanley and the biggest people in the world.
So to go that, you need to do a one year of pre perio. You need to become an expert to actually go in there. So I started studying for that course. I started shadowing some of the best perios in Spain, which are, there are a lot like Mariano, all these big guys. And then I realized I don’t feel like leaving. Put in my life three years in the beam to do patio, maybe to do something else.
And then I started working in a place where root canals, they were a must, like there was a lot of, for some reason there was a lot of root canals needed, the demographic for the work that was done before, for the kind of treat patients that we were receiving. But then I think I did like maybe 150 root canals in a year.
And my family in the states are endodontists in LA. Several clinics after and also I was always under I understood the work, but again, I found it extremely I was like, I can’t do this the rest of my life I mean no way. Probably no and now I regret to be honest now seeing them in the longest. I probably now would love to be in and around this. I found it like very profession to do right so young dentists, endodontists it sounds like it’s not sexy. But it has a very good life.
I don’t know if you agree with me on that I finally agree good speciality to know that I decided to move to London to do my Master’s in the Aesthetic and Restorative Program. And that was a part time, so I needed to find a job here while I was doing my Master’s. That was a bit difficult because I didn’t know how the NHS worked.
I didn’t have any I had no clue about how the system worked and I was lucky enough to end up working in a clinic in West Palm Grove in Nottingham. Super cool clinic. The guy liked the work that I was doing and like he was also Spanish that helped. And that gave me already open doors to private dentistry.
So I’ve never done NHS. And I could pay my university at the same time. So I was very lucky. And from there, basically restorative slash prosthodontist, which in your case not very well defined. What I do in getting more and more and more and more complex cases, and now what I love to do is basically work occlusion, full mouth rehabilitation dentistry, whatever involves patients to have a normal life.
Again, as much as we can and always looking from a very holistic approach. So working with nutritionists, working with chiropractors, I work a lot in getting a lot in sleep medicine, something that I’m very passionate about. This is the kind of patients that I get. They work in Kensington, they work in a clinic in Archery. So our patients that normally they need a lot of help and we try to help them from the very, very beginning of their problems, which are, gets to manage dentitions, right?
[Jaz]
Well, when you started to re engage back in dentistry, and take this further, and now you’re working in a clinic where you have the right tools and the right mindset that’s constantly growing, you’re delving more into sleep medicine, for example, when you realize that actually it wasn’t just you who went through that rough path, that we all go through it, and there’s still many clinicians who are suffering in silence, how we can be a very isolated, went into creating a little bit more about these events.
Tell me more about that, tell me about did Dentorama come first, or which one came first? Give us a flavor about that because the next thing I want to jump to is came to your most recent one. It was just amazing. Like, the full stage all around the debate that was happening. The conversations that were happening, the kind of people that you tracked was truly brilliant.
So tell us more about how you ended up going into that, or we talk about some of the themes that came such as anxiety from social media. Is it a good thing and a bad thing? But tell us more about how you actually got started with that.
[Mehy]
Well, this was, it’s going to be now almost three years ago and two or three years ago. And I had a concept of an event. Me with my friend Bruno, we wanted, who is not in dentistry, he’s in music, now he does sound frequency, which it’s another science, but we wanted to basically create events to help the healthcare provider, what to, how they can work on their breathing, how they can work on their posture, how they can work on their mental health, everything that is around the clinical side.
I had that in mind the way that I wanted to look, which is one of the ventures, which is the debate on this very dark room with a white in the middle that is pointed to the speakers and makes a bit very mystic atmosphere. We, our paths cross with Joe Lovett, one of the most well connected networker in the industry, and he also had in mind to do an event.
So we kind of merge forces. He was bringing basically companies and huge following that he had. And I didn’t know anyone here, so I guess like, this is my idea. Let’s see if it works. So the ingredients worked very well. People loved it. People felt safe. People love to have a space where they could actually open up to their feelings and not being judged.
Everything in a very cool set up, like you’ve never seen before. And after that, we were throwing a party with an open bar, which everyone loves. So all these ingredients made it very magical and successful. And people were like, okay, what’s next? And we’re like, I don’t know. We didn’t think to do anyone else.
It’s like, yeah, yeah. We need to continue that. We did another one, but the problem that we have is that every time we do an event, we need to change something and we need to make it more innovative and people are expecting from us. It’s like, oh, let’s see what’s next. At some point, the idea of creating a theatrical debate came on board, which basically is something that happened in Morinther and arts, which is basically a very, very basic concept of what we do now.
We had to transform it in what is then drama now, which is theater with the real actors that play real life scenarios that happen in a dental clinic. And last year was a lot about problems of the patient with the dentist expectations and unhappy patients. And the dentist trying to commit frauds to make some extra money.
The insurance theater at some point freeze or stops. And we had a panel of experts last year. We have a lawyer, one of the directors of dental protection, actually deserves to learn this. And we talk about what happened in the theater, but the coolest bit, and I think it’s the one that people like more is that for a hundred people that are in the room, they can share and open and talk about what they’ve seen.
So it’s like a little bit like a forum, but not only to see who is speaking. Also, you have the chance to express yourself. And obviously we think we finish all of this with a very nice network, a very nice party. So, everyone goes home happy. But so this is how everything evolved. And with the years we managed to build this very beautiful community. People that want to have a better career and they are concerned about creating a better work through dentistry.
[Jaz]
I think it’s very innovative what you did. I think it’s very timely and I think it’s just an artistic expression. These debates are happening, but what you’ve essentially created, you’ve funneled it into a very creative way. Beautiful artistic expression. So it was really great to be involved with the debate that you had, but now looking forward to in October, the Dentorama. I love the theater. I love the production. So I can’t wait to see what surprises you have up your sleeves. But one of the themes that you did discuss the most recent event with the debate, I think Rona was an audience and you asked her about social media and you don’t have to have the kind of following that she does.
It could be anyone. The thing I found to struggle with was many years ago when social media was new. To actually have the confidence to post a photo of a clinical image. That’s a big step for a young dentist to do that basically. But the other thing I realized is that a lot of dentists just don’t want to engage in that and you have to respect that.
But then the question I’m asking is in this time that we are now, 2024, is it a must? Should every dentist have a presence on social media, whether they like it or not? It’s kind of like, should we all have a LinkedIn? Should we all have an Instagram? How imperative is it to have a social media? Because one of the downsides of social media, which we’ll touch on is the anxiety.
It creates, you’re constantly seeing beautiful work. You’re constantly seeing, it’s no different to seeing all these beautiful fashion magazines and seeing these models, which are not realistic. Some have been Photoshop, et cetera. People start comparing, having anxiety about that. We apply that to dentistry. We see that through social media as well. So what are your thoughts on the dentist and their role, their presence in social media and the whole package that comes with it?
[Mehy]
I think it depends. It depends on what you want to be in this profession, and who is the audience that you want to talk to? It depends on your audience is in between 25 and 35, then probably you need Instagram, right? Or-
[Jaz]
By audience. Do you mean your patient base? Is that the way of saying your patient base?
[Mehy]
Yeah, let’s say, okay. Yeah. I mean, kind of both at the same time, it depends on, first of all, do you want to use it professionally? Do you want it to attract patients or do you want it to educate? Do you want to use it to just know about your friends or it depends on, I think the question is what do you want to be in social media? Because right now in social media we are actors and this is how I see. No one really shows. I haven’t met anyone that shows the real life every day. So right now in social media we are actors.
[Jaz]
I love that and I love where you’re going with this, but I’m going to add that actually It’s not just social media. I feel like when we are in the operatory, we are also actors. We are also putting on a performance.
[Mehy]
A hundred percent. And this is what you need to decide. I need to decide when I’m in front, in the stage, when I’m doing public speaking, when I’m in front of a camera, I need to decide, okay, who are you right now and what you want to express. So if I want to empower my audience and I want to speak about things that they’re going to make my audience happier.
Of course, I’m not going to show who I am today. Because that might not help them and the reality of who I am. So it depends on which actor are you deciding to be in social media. And you can be many actors, but this is what you need to understand. That when you know this, you understand that whoever is in social media is not you.
Then you can use it as you wish. And that probably will remove a lot of the anxiety that this is creating. Because one of the things that you said about that first post about your case, how difficult it is. This is because we are seeking validation. And this is a trauma that we’re having since we were kids.
So this is not a problem. Social media is our problem that actually social media is bringing up. You have a problem because you need to be liked by everyone. And you need to, everyone said, wow, what a great job. And you won’t accept criticism. So when you worked on that, and then you were actually like, I’m ready to learn from my mistakes and I’m ready to show and see what they’ve done wrong, then that anxiety will probably disappear.
Another thing is that if you really want to show that, and if you really want to show your weaknesses, that it’s not always necessary, like it depends on, it depends again, what you want to show, who you want to be in social media. So I always have this debate. I’ll ask this many times in my events.
Is it okay to share your personal life and your professional life at the same time? And some people will say, yes. And, but there are consequences of that. And the consequences is that, as I know, a lot of my colleagues, they had such a strong presence in social media and they show so much about their life that the patient, they go to the clinic to meet them.
They almost don’t care about their clinical skills. They want to know and now I’m a big fan of you and okay, whatever you do, I’m going to from being a great dentist or bring a clinician that we think that that people will go to you depends on what you’re showing and they’re like amazing clinicians that we all know very well that they only show their clinical work and you almost don’t even know their face. I actually, they’re clinicians. I don’t even know how they look. They only show teeth.
[Jaz]
But you know, that style of dental photography. And when you see the photo, you don’t have to see the handle, whose photo that is and the work and it’s like a signature that you leave on your dentistry. And they’re showing that, and they’re obviously very passionate because one way you could be the absolute best dentist in the world, right? But if you can’t communicate with your patient, right, that goes nowhere.
In the same way, you could be an exemplary clinician. But your colleagues will not refer to you because you haven’t communicated it to your colleagues and you haven’t communicated to your patients in the modern way that we do now in this day and age.
[Mehy]
Yeah, I agree. And back in the days, I was actually talking with a very, very, very brilliant orthodontist, Dr. David Young, which has 30 years of experience. And actually, I was asking him, how were you doing before? And like, how were you when, before social media, before internet, and he was actually talking to me about the slide projector where you had to take all your pictures and take it to reveal.
And then they were creating this slides for you. And then you had to take. It was almost like a DJ that goes with the vinyls around. So you had to go and this is the only way you could show all your work. And then how many people could see your work was whether it was in the room. And if you were lucky, maybe a thousand people that normally it’s 10 to 10 study clubs. So social media is a great tool on that.
[Jaz]
It’s a great megaphone. It’s a great amplifier, but we need to make sure two things, which message I’ll be giving to the world. But also which message are we receiving as well, because we are at the mercy of the algorithms and we start looking at things and the algorithm wants to feed you more, but then you get blind to the other perspectives that are out there.
[Mehy]
100%. Social media is a business, right? And as a business, there are interests. And I mean, I had my personal experience where I, at some point I was showing or trying to raise awareness about the political issue, right. Or about some kind of a war or I’m Palestinian, right. So I wanted to raise awareness about what was happening in the world.
And my view, my posts were shown. I don’t have a huge following. I don’t know how many thousands, something they were shown to 10 people. Now, when I was posting about my holidays in Ibiza with a beer in my hand and with my daughter or whatever, there are 400 views. So there’s clearly an indication of what you can show as a filtering.
So, and that is in any sense in any case, and so you have also to consider that you are part of a business and you’re going to be showing whatever the business wants you to show. So as far as you understand how it works and as far as understand what is social media and as far as you understand yourself, what you want to be on those platforms and who you want to talk, how you are going to receive, as you said, those messages, then you can be safe. But again, it creates addiction. It creates an anxiety. There’s a very dangerous tool to use, in my opinion.
[Jaz]
I think it’s good that you mentioned, and it’s the first point you mentioned. I think just, if anyone’s multitasking and missed that, really important to say is that Mehy clearly said that social media is fake and just always remember that.
And then this is how it is, is that it always will be. Because no one’s going to show the new wart that came on their pinky toe, right? No one’s going to share that stuff. Okay. So that’s too real. When they get their nails done, they’ll show that. So just remember that the warts and all the experience is very rarely happening.
And what you see is the best of the best. So never feel anxiety or compare yourself to what you see on social media. The best metric is to compare yourself from two years ago, compare yourself to you three years ago. And if you’re not happy with that progress, you need to really have a sit down and think about, okay, what’s the next two years going to look like? What’s the next six months going to look like?
Now on the topic of all this, it may may or may not be social media. I’m leaving it to you because what I see you are really on the field discussing this a lot, right? What do you think is the number one source of anxiety for young dentists? So it could be social media, but I don’t know. I’m not convinced it is. I feel as though it’s other things, but you may say it is from speaking to his colleagues. What is the biggest source of anxiety?
[Mehy]
I don’t think I mean, social media is a huge factor, but something, I mean just imagine that once you’re taking your driving license, right? And then the teacher is telling you, once you’re going to get your license, and like, by the way, I didn’t tell you that, but you’re going to crash your car at least twice in your life and you might die. This might affect the rest of your life in the way you drive. And it’s going to make you drive very insecure, very scared.
You’re expecting always something going to happen. So there’s something that shocked me a lot when I arrived to this country is that the indemnity companies, they assure to the young professionals that they are going to get sued. At least twice in their career.
[Jaz]
That must have changed Mehy. That must have changed because the one I heard many years ago, but that the most latest one I heard is that not necessarily sued, but you will get five complaints in your first two years.
Now, what determines the complaint? It could just be like a small thing. But some of these complaints go on further. So, in the UK, as you mentioned, it’s country specific UK, at some point did overtake the States, did overtake other countries in terms of being the most litigious country in the world, and I love your analogy of the driving instructor telling you that you’re going to crash.
And then your whole life you’re driving with anxiety, you are holding your hand piece of anxiety. When you’re speaking to your patient, you are filtering so many things you are then getting confused because there’s one thing you want to say. But you can’t say it because you are then scared to do something that may be in the best interest of the patient, but it may be a riskier approach. It may leave you to defensive dentistry. You’re practicing defensively.
[Mehy]
Exactly. And I don’t think this is fair. One thing is okay. You need to understand there are rules. There are things that you need to be careful with, but I practice dentistry in five different countries. Studying to and have people in probably around 10 and no, this doesn’t happen everywhere.
People in Spain don’t practice dentistry and there is great dentistry in Spain and there are some of the best in the world. So you don’t have that fear because you know you’re doing the best for the patient and you’re not worried that that patient will sue you. It might happen. I don’t know about you.
Don’t go with this mentality. You just do the best of what your abilities and what you think is best for the patient. And you start actually what happens with this. So starting taking on board more complicated cases in an early stage of your career and you stop practicing this very defensive dentistry, which at the end of the day is wrong.
And this is form in my opinion, like there’s a lot of, I call it like half way dentistry here, like a half of orthodontic treatment, just move a little bit to being able to put two millimeters of composite bonding. This is not dentistry. This is dentistry for three years, four years, but we all know this is going to break and doing this twice.
This is the wrong thing. And this is why, and a lot of people don’t do that because they don’t want to put their patients through a more aggressive and I don’t think it’s more aggressive, but a longer treatment, more aggressive, more expensive, which can bring more complaints and complicate your life.
But the reality is that is your duty to at least go for that treatment and if the patient doesn’t want to maybe go for something simpler, but I feel that this is what caused a lot of anxiety on the people like going to their jobs, thinking that something is going to go wrong, that whatever they do, they might get a complaint that if they forget to write the expiry of their anesthesia.
They might get sued forever. And as you said, the complaints that you might receive, also, I did a study with the general dental counsel and we brought people from the GDC to one of our events, the numbers are not that bad. And the people that actually they get to lose their license is people that they are almost criminals.
Like actually they’ve done some stuff very, very wrong, but you don’t lose your license because you forgot to write something on the notes or because it’s as far as you’re honest and then you made the best out of your capacity and things don’t need to go that bad.
[Jaz]
I’ll give you an example, right? And I love this direction we’re going in. I think you hit the nail on the head. In the UK, but I do feel speaking to us colleagues, they have a bit of this fear as well.
[Mehy]
Also the US, yes, for sure. Even worse.
[Jaz]
And the overarching theme, I think is when you are doing something with fear, if your frame is fear, then what happens is that you are not able to grow a good rate. You’re not able to innovate for sure. You’re not able to grow. And innovation doesn’t mean you make the next big thing in dentistry, it’s innovation for you, where you are at in your career, doing new procedures that already well documented in the textbooks, but now you’re able to confidently do that.
Now, when I look at other countries, India, Poland, and some Eastern European countries, and I see how young dentists are doing such great work, it’s because yes, they had the mentorship and the guidance but they didn’t have that fear factor overlying, someone sitting, weighing them down in the shoulder.
It’s a bit like the clinical example I can give is a sodium hypochlorite extrusion, right? It could happen, right? It’s not that no dentist ever wants to do that or create that because it’s horrible. No one wants to see it, right? But then now, how many more dentists are referring because they’re just afraid of all the different complications that can happen in endo?
They’re not doing the molar root canal. They’re not, skilling up in endo, right? And so that’s a great example because that’s something that’s just happens as a percentage chance that that can happen. Even ID blocks, people, dentists, young kids are scared of doing ID blocks, right?
Because they are afraid of causing a temporary or permanent, very rarely paresthesia from an ID block. And you’re such a simple, basic thing and you’re approaching it from fear. So if you can’t get past the ID block, how are you going to do your first ridge preservation? How are you going to do your first implant if you can’t get past the ID block?
And so that’s the big issue I think we feel. So how can we even begin to correct that? Not that we’re going to come up with the answers me and you now, but I’m just putting up to debate to the Protruserati something to reflect on.
[Mehy]
I think having the tools. And understanding where these comments, where are they coming from? First of all, I think universities are not making a favor because they are the first ones putting that fear and talking about ID blocks. I know that for example, there are some universities that they are forcing you or to use different techniques as not as effective maybe so to avoid complications, which if they’re done, I mean, under some circumstances, they can be good, but the problem is that they teach you everything from the fear.
So, that mentality needs to change. And I think those numbers about the GDC and complaints that you might receive, as you said, when they tell you, you’re going to receive five complaints. In your career now, they’re saying five, right? They don’t tell you exactly. I mean, let’s just stop saying this.
Just let’s start from there. Like what is the reason of you saying this? What is the real reason? So we can increase the rise, the fees of the companies, or asked to practice more conservative. Then they say, what is the reason behind those statement. And this is what I would like to understand where these statements come from.
[Jaz]
Well, let’s talk about this statements language, right? Barry Oulton once taught me a great example, right? It’s a bit like when you’re speaking to your child, right? You’re speaking to a child. Like if I speak to my five year old Ishaan, this example that he gave me, Ishaan’s got some orange juice in his hand and he’s walking down the stairs, right?
There’s one way of saying to Ishaan. Ishaan, don’t drop the orange juice as you’re coming down. Just be careful. Don’t drop the orange juice. Okay. And so he’s constantly walking, thinking about not dropping the orange juice. Instead, if we say to Ishaan, Ishaan come down very carefully, walk carefully and make it to the end and so that we can enjoy our orange juice.
Okay. So it’s just the way you frame it. So perhaps we need to talk less or emphasize less about the world’s a bad place. Everyone’s going to sue you. Make sure you do this in notes or this will happen, et cetera. And rather think about, okay, how can we connect better with our patients?
How can we get really good consent from our patients? How can we serve our patients better so they are happier? How can we upskill at the correct pace? If we maybe change the language to that, that might be part of the issue or solution.
[Mehy]
100 percent and is actually the main reason of complain. Normally people don’t complain because you’ve done a bad treatment. Normally people complain because you didn’t tell me that they tell him and explaining that things can go wrong. You didn’t manage expectations and you didn’t communicate clearly. And this is where everything comes from, communication. Communication that we receive and mainly the communication that we give.
And this is, I’m very happy to see a lot of forces in communication and a lot of people talking about this because this is very important. And I think it’s the key of success and the key of success in everything, in your relationships, in your work, in your career, everything for me is communication because the really successful people in the world are people that they know how to talk and how to transmit and how to engage and how to make people feel safe.
There are no people that have a lot of knowledge and there’s not a lot of people that they’re very good at doing a technique. They are very good at what they do, but if you really want to have success, which means for me, success is have a happy life and means that I go to bed sleeping very well and waking up, not thinking about problems.
This is for me, success. Then you need to make sure that you spoke to everyone that you had to talk in a clear way the day before and there was no issues of miscommunication. So you need to work very hard on your communication skills. This is what my number one piece of advice to any person and can be young, can be adults wants to improve that.
And once you get to that point where everyone can understand you and you’re not scared of saying what you think, and you said it, say it in the right way, things are going to go easier because skills, you’re going to get them, skills is one after the other.
[Jaz]
I think the soft skills of that conversation, the communication, we don’t practice enough. I had a great guest on recently, Dr. Brett Gilbert, Endodontist in the States. And a great piece of advice he gave is yes, you might practice on extracted teeth with the K files, et cetera, but how often do we stand in front of a mirror and practice how you say something and practice a hundred times the way you say it.
So you become confident in the way you say it. Not because you’re trying to change you as a person, but your delivery is important. The reps that you do in terms of sometimes it’s difficult to say certain things. Sometimes it’s very, some people really struggle to talk about fees. Sometimes dentists really struggle to talk about the risks because they think, oh, if I tell them too many risks, then they won’t want the treatment.
But that’s the whole point of consent. So you’ve got to say, look, Mrs. Smith, this might actually fail in a couple of years. And when it fails, it’s very sad. We don’t want that to happen. We’re going to try our best, but you need to consent that. Okay. It’s not always a hundred percent successful. Is that going to be okay with you?
Now, some people would really struggle with that, but if you can actually practice that in front of the mirror, that’s a good thing. So what leads me to next is, what top tips can you share in the similar vein of the communication to help dentists fast track their growth in their career? And it doesn’t matter which stage of career they’re at basically, but to really from this point today, to fast track and grow at a faster rate.
[Mehy]
I am a huge fan of enjoying exploring your life and your options. So I don’t believe in fast tracks. I don’t believe that things can go very quick because you’re going to miss a lot of learning in the process. So I think exploring and making mistakes and allowing yourself to fail. It’s something that will make you grow way faster in a way. But when everything goes right and is planned and no one, you never had any issues, the learning is super slow.
And actually when you have that failure in a very late stage of your career, that can be very dangerous because you’re not ready to fail. So for me, it’s like accept failure, accept that things can go wrong, accept the learning, something that in the industry, we’re not very good at that, right?
We’re not very good at people telling us, oh, this is not how you should do it. And for me, communication, as I said, is key. So do courses, watch YouTube videos. Understand how to read a room, how to read your patient. No, you can’t talk to everyone in the same way. If you want to do public speaking, you can’t talk in the same way in a room for 2, 000 people than in a room with one person.
You’re not talking in the same way to someone that is very confident. That someone is very scared. So once you understand, you can bridge people’s behavior. You need to understand how they feel. And also that goes to your team, which is exactly the same. When you learn how to talk to your team, how to give feedback, how to receive it.
It’s very important, how to tell someone, hey, I don’t like this. Which for me was a huge struggle for years. I spent three years of my career not being able to tell to my nurse. I don’t like when you put this action here. And I was scared and afraid of hearing, hurting her feelings. And that was causing me anxiety.
[Jaz]
Especially young female dentists. They seem to complain about a lot. I hear a lot that get friction with the nurses. There’s so much more to it, I imagine, but we hear this a lot. And so well, one way I approach this, and when I work with a new nurse, right, I work with a wonderful nurse called Zoe, pretty much night and time.
We have a great relationship. We worked on it because one of the first things I do when I work with a new nurse, right, is when the patient’s gone, maybe I said to Zoe many years ago, I said, Zoe, I like to work in a way where if anything that I do annoys you, please tell me. And then you’d be amazed what they tell you.
Like one nurse once told me that my light is way too bright. It hurts her eyes. I never knew this. So I gave her permission to tell me. But equally what I did, I sought permission from my nurses. Like, can I please have your permission to maybe just share a few things that, I would like tweaked.
And then maybe together we can get a win win. And then they say yes. And then when you open up that permission, that’s a wonderful thing. So maybe asking permission is a great example. The other thing I just want to just add on based on what a wonderful thing you said about reading people. There’s a great book.
I’ll find it. I’ll put in the show notes. I think it’s called the power of body language or something to do with body language, right? One of the first books I read when I started looking into communication and that book helped me so much because 70 percent of our communication is a non-verbal. You know, the other week I walked in to work 7. 30 a. m.
And I just said, good morning. I’m not going to say her name when the receptionist and said good morning. And the way she said it to me and the way she looked, I said, what’s wrong? And she just burst into tears, right? And then there was something and then the other receptionist there to help her.
And I just knew if I just said, okay, good morning. Yeah. How you okay? Or I just walked upstairs. But I knew something was wrong just from the way she said it and her body language, her posture. And that is a powerful thing because our patients will give us these cues. Our colleagues will give us our cues.
And I agree, not just the verbal communication, not what to say to the patient, how to say it, but how to read it.
[Mehy]
Agreed. And just say it. Try to find a way to say, because if you don’t say that your colleagues or patients, anyone around you, your partner, they don’t need to guess it. And so yesterday, I was actually shared this in social media because I found it very, very funny, but it’s actually something that I go through every day when you actually look at your nurse with the eyes. You’re expecting her to know exactly what you want. And we don’t really, a lot of the time-
[Jaz]
Telepathy.
[Mehy]
Expect people to do telepathy. We expect from people to do things that we never, ever told them to do. And you would think that you say it every day, but I assure you, there are things that you never, ever told them or ask them to do. And you’re expecting for them to do, and sometimes you go back to that, something you’re not perfect every day.
And then you have those days that you don’t need to be calm and every day. There are things that happen in your life that when you sit down in the chair where you can need to put your facade off perfect person but inside you’re still thinking about things and on your life and your car broke and there’s a mouse in the kitchen. And there is the school is calling you to pick up your daughter because she’s sick, whatever and then you don’t have the rights, composite, and then you look at your nurse asking like, no, I try, I don’t want the micro particles.
I know I want the macro, and probably actually that nurse never worked with you before. It’s actually a temp nurse that is just there. She doesn’t know anything. So I always say, just say, obviously in a very nice and polite way and something I learned very recent. People are happy in their jobs when they feel that they are treated as adults, and this is something that I learned from the employees from Google and Netflix and all these super fancy offices and they understood that people don’t care.
If you give them free food, they have a gym, you have cinema, you have all this super cool things in their office. So if you don’t treat them as adults and you don’t give them this freedom, they won’t be happy. So just make sure you treat all your team as adults, as people with their own knowledge and capacity.
And then you’re not trying to micromanage everything. And the same with your patients and the same way your family. When you need to make yourself, and we’re going to talk back to talking to kids, you need to, and this is what they say, you need to talk to them like adults, because you need to make them feel that they have an autonomy and they can do things on their own.
So this is the way they’re going to develop as independent people, right? So it’s a little the same. And unfortunately, a lot of these big societies and governments and people that they try to control the way we work and live. They don’t treat us as adults, and this is what makes you not being happy or in your job or in your profession or in your life. When you start feeling like, okay, I am an adult and by adult I mean someone that can take his own decisions, then things I think go much better.
[Jaz]
Amazing. I think what we, I’d love to know now we’re going to wrap up and it’s been really nice to talk about all these themes that we don’t talk about enough. And every guest I talk with about the non clinical stuff, the directions we go in are just absolutely wonderful. Sometimes it’s about 20 percent crossover, but it’s always a themes that we just need to hear over and over again, right? Because just like we hear about the different bonding protocols and the power of etch and which percentage of hydrofluoric acids do you, we hear that over and over again.
We also need to hear these themes over and over again. And I think what you brought was a lot of new themes today. So maybe thanks so much. I’d love to share with the Protruserati about your next event. I’m looking forward to joining. I know Andre Cardoso, George Andre Cardoso, my dear friend will be there as well, cause you’re bringing him there. Is that a surprise by the way? Am I allowed to say that?
[Mehy]
No, no. Anymore. No, anymore. We were trying to, by the way, I’ve got super inspired by you with your podcast. This is how I mean, I knew Andre, from the clinical side. I didn’t know the Andre coach side. So I heard him at your podcast. I fell in love and I said, you know, okay, I’m going to ask him and then I ask you, you know, I was like, hey, I think this is going to happen.
And you were so happy. So, and there is there George Cheetam and Georgia, then this is also part of the panel. So there was a big restorative Kings, alumni and the faye Donald, one of the super cool hygienist in this country. So she’s going to bring that perspective so we have the different perspective from the clinic owner to the super associate hygienist to talk about teams. We’re going to be talking about a lot of what we’ve been talking today about communication between your team, how to, the feedback, receiving leadership management. So yeah.
[Jaz]
Is this something that you think people, dentists can bring their assistants, their nurses to as well?
[Mehy]
Yeah, I encourage this year and we even have like a super special prize for people that they want to bring their whole team. I think it’s like half price if you want to bring the whole team because I think it’s a very cool group activity where you can learn. I mean, if I could, I would bring my whole team to all the courses that I do. Because it’s the real way that you can implement. So I think it’s a very good activity to do the whole group. So I encourage everyone.
[Jaz]
Tell us more about the activity in sense of what actually happens. What’s the actual format of the end? We touched on it earlier, but just to, cause there’s a few different types of events that you run, this one is the Dentorama, right? So. There’s the one that’s like the skits and the acting. Obviously you throw most surprises in, but then the panel discussion and audience, is that what to expect?
[Mehy]
Yeah. So this is the drama is done at the Royal institution in Mayfair, which in central London, which is an incredible venue, has a very majestic theater. If you’ve seen the images that we have in our socials, you can see a little bit of the setup. So what to expect. And then it starts like going to a theater literally like this. We’re going to start with a show where going to put some scenarios, all is in a comedy. So it’s very fun. We write this together with Nicole O’Neill, which is super talented actors and theater director.
So it’s very, very well curated. So you’re going to have a lot of fun. And then after that, takes like 10, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, depends on the act. And then we pass to the panel of experts, which will be debating about, and talking about all the dramas that we’ve seen during the act, and then we open up to the audience, we all share, we have then a break or perhaps, you’ll have some complimentary drinks and needles, and then we do this again.
Where there’s another act so every act plus the debate is like an hour each and then after we would finish at nine and thirty there is a social in the same venue and then for the late ones the people that they want to continue also we are doing an after party and in another venue nearby so for people you know there are some people like they like to keep socializing.
[Jaz]
Something in it which is a very fresh approach to what you’re doing. Very much needed in the way of delivering. It is education, but it’s more than education. It’s talking about these higher level topics. It’s talking about team’s a great thing. So I’m going to pitch it to, even though we’re in Reading, the team, I’m still going to pitch it to them. I was like, listen, and I’m sure some of the nurse colleagues would love to come and they hardly get to go to these things.
They really do not have that kind of fun that we do. And I think if there’s one event they attend this year, that really makes them feel like, wow, like, I can’t believe my practice took me here. I think that’s, this is going to be a very memorable one for them.
[Mehy]
100 percent is a huge favor that you can do to your team and they don’t get to experience. Unfortunately, a lot of our nurses and hygienists and therapy is the cool part of dentistry that for me is this conferences network meeting people that they go through the same struggles that you do or success. And it’s very special. So, yeah, I encourage. Bring your whole team. Anyone is more than welcome to join.
Everyone will learn. It’s not an event for only dentists for sure. It’s actually this year we’ve designed one of the acts for hygienists and therapists. We talk about it and also we’re going to talk about the problems between dentists and nurses. We’ll have the two different kinds of dentists and nurses and how they treat each other. So the title is The Story Behind the Worst Dental Team Ever. So we’re going to concentrate all our savages situations in a few minutes. So it’s going to be intense.
[Jaz]
I think we’ll all be able to resonate with a lot of the themes that come across there. How can people book on? I’m going to put the link in the show notes. I’ll be there. I’ll be joining you guys in the audience and I’m very excited for it. If it’s anything like your previous event, I mean, I can’t wait. My only criticism maybe of your event was it literally like it flew by so quick.
It was like two hours. Like it’s social already, which is great. I don’t know, don’t get me wrong. I enjoy the social, but it was like, everything just was like in the blink of an eye, I was like, wow, that was so engaging. So, it’s definitely a very fun day. What’s the website? I’ll put it in the show notes for anyone who’s on the laptop now. What’s the website? How can they come to the event? It’s 18th of October, right? Friday?
[Mehy]
18th of October, Friday. Doors open 6pm, so it’s after work. You can, the show starts at 7. And then, yeah, we’ll be there till late. The website is globaldentalcollective. com. You can get access to the shows and drama.
From there, you can get the tickets. We’ve created a special discount for your audience, just for the protrusive podcasts. So we’ll share that, also with you. And then-
[Jaz]
Try and make it Protrusive. Because everyone’s used to just going and typing in protrusive and coupon codes. People sometimes go on like fashion websites and just accidentally type in protrusive because they’re just so used to using protrusive as a coupon code. So if you can make it that for everyone, they’ll do that.
[Mehy]
Perfect. And that’s going to be easy. protrusive as a code, and then you’ll get a huge discount. And we want to have as many people as we want. There’s like 400, respecting 400 people. So it’s probably the biggest audience in any one day conference in UK. So then the conference is going to be cool.
[Jaz]
Amazing. I can’t wait to see that. I can’t wait to see the Protruserati who come there. Please bring your teams. I’m literally going to message Zoe and the team now saying, ladies, do you want to, come to this? I think that’d be pretty, pretty fun. And I think now that we have the Elizabeth line, Reading and London, that’d be quite good for us as well.
So that’d be good. Mehy, honestly, thank you so much for coming on, talking about these themes, talking about vulnerabilities, opening up about your past and your dips in that dentistry and then how engaged you are now and your sort of the work that you do, and also just generally thank you for the work you do.
You, the Global Dental Collective is the GDC we actually need. I’m pretty sure when you came up with the name, you came up with a name.
[Mehy]
That was actually, actually, that was, yeah, that was Joe Lovett and it was a bit of a joke. And now we’re a bit of trouble because we can’t really use only the letters.
So we’d see what we do with that. But they’re fine with that. They’re happy with that. So I think also, I don’t know if they like it or not, but it’s how it is. But yeah, we don’t want to compete with that. We just want to help.
[Jaz]
Definitely not. We have different purposes, but brother, thank you so much. I’ll put the links in the show notes. So it’d be great to see you guys there. And thanks so much for speaking about these topics today.
[Mehy]
Thank you so much, Jaz. Thank you for having me.
Jaz’s Outro:
There we have it guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. Hope you enjoyed those really hard hitting themes that me and may covered. And because you made it all the way to the end, if you simply answer the questions in the quiz below, now this is obviously accessible to you. If you’re on the protrusive guidance app, if you’re on a paid plan, you can get CE. or CPD for this episode. We are a PACE approved provider and it’s just a great way throughout the year to listen to podcasts and get CE.
It allows you also to add in some reflections and that comes in your certificate so that you actually remember, ah, this episode taught me that and this is what I will change about my practice. Maybe after today you’re going to go get the book The Power of Body Language, by Joe Navarro. Or maybe you’re going to seek permission from your nurse, your dental assistant, and give them permission to give you feedback.
Or maybe you’re just going to join us at those events in London in October and November that I told you about earlier. One is the Dentorama that Mehy’s involved in and of course the Treatment Planning and Communication Symposium on the 16th of November. Please do check out the links below for both those events and hopefully I’ll get to connect with some of you there.
I want to thank the team. This one was produced by Gian. The CE certificates are taken care of by Mari, with very diligent quizzing and quality control from Krissel and Nav. Thank you again and I hope you enjoy this interference cast. I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.
The first EVER ‘Prospective’ episode of Protrusive – I interviewed new-grad Dr Triman Ahluwalia in 2023, then again 7 months later in 2024 to see how he gets on with his first year as a real Dentist 😉
We uncover what it feels to be a freshly qualified Dentist, the pressures and fears that come with procedures such as endo and surgical extractions, but what we can do as growing clinicians to overcome these hurdles.
https://youtu.be/9NtKCIVfMLsWatch IC052 on YoutubeThis episode is packed with lots of top tips to help you in your journey from the ground up, or as a reminder for those that have been there and done that, that we are forever learning on our journey and there’s always something out there to help us become better Dentists.
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this Episode:
02:02 Introduction to Dr Triman (2023)
03:32 Experiences at Dental School
07:15 Procedures You Fear + Sectioning Teeth
11:25 Thoughts on Social Media in Dentistry
15:26 Documenting Work
16:30 Future Career Plans
18:00 Additional Comments from Triman
19:03 Back to the Future: 2024 Triman Update
21:50 Dental Photography Progress
23:08 Tricky Dental Procedures Update
27:46 The Good and the Bad of DFT
32:26 Career Path in Dentistry
34:49 Triman’s Top Tips
37:06 Wrapping Up
Don’t forget to check out the Protrusive App where you can find more awesome tutorials on becoming a more efficient and effective practitioner.
If you liked this episode, you will also like IC029 – Young Dentist Thrival Guide
This episode is not eligible for CPD/CE points, but never fear, there are hundreds of hours of CPD waiting for you on on the Ultimate Eduction Plan, including Premium clinical workthroughs and Masterclasses.
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: Welcome to the first ever Protrusive Prospective episode. You see, I interviewed Dr. Triman Ahluwalia in his first month of being a real dentist, i. e. newly qualified. I then interviewed him again seven months later to see how he got on.
Jaz’s Introduction:
Hello Protruserati, I’m Jaz Gulati, and welcome back to your favorite dental podcast. Every year we make an episode to help those who are in their first year, i. e. they’ve just qualified and they’re entering the big bad world dentistry. And this is a interesting one because I’ve never done a prospective episode whereby I’ve told the guest to wait six, seven months and then we’ll continue the recording.
Just to see if the perspective has changed. I think this is essential listening and watching for those who are literally about to enter the first year of dental school, or maybe you’re returning to work again after some time off, or maybe you just want to gain some insight into the mind of the newly qualified dentist.
Maybe you mentor some dentists, by the way, speaking of mentorships and big things, Intaglio is almost out. For those of you who don’t know, Intaglio is a new platform we’re making to allow one on one mentorship. Look, it doesn’t matter. How much money you paid to these courses doesn’t matter how many continuums or diplomas you’ve done.
When you have that specific case and you need someone to sit down with to discuss that case, step by step for a good hour or even two hours, the course organizes the diploma teachers. They are busy. They don’t have the time to do one on one, which is why we created this platform to allow mentors and mentees to connect and allow fair exchange.
Because you know what when a mentee needs help they really value it and they value that one on one time so Intaglio is coming soon and also a big update number two is I’m in my new studio I’ve now moved from reading to West London quite close to Heathrow it’s like little India it’s called Southall. I’m close now to my parents my in laws we get lots of support for family so that was a big reason I’m still working in Reading. But yeah, it’s been a crazy time with moving.
But now this is my first episode, first intro being recorded in a new studio. Wish us good luck. And now we’ll join the main episode with Dr. Triman, catch you in the outro.
Main Episode:We can say doctor now, Dr. Triman Ahluwalia, I might feel strange to you. How are you doing my friend?
[Triman]
Yeah, I’m doing great. Big fan of the podcast. So it’s a great honor to be here and hopefully shed some light on DFT.
[Jaz]
Brilliant. Well, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast, my friend. It’s so lovely to have you. And I’m so thankful, thanks so much for agreeing for the nature of what we’re doing today. It’s going to be delayed gratification. I’m going to talk to you now at the very beginning of your DF1 journey.
So those are my international audience. DF1 is basically like your first year out of dental school. It’s kind of like a bridge between dental school and like the real world. We kind of get a bit more support and things are a bit slower to start with, which is good. I definitely learned a lot, enjoy my time, but it’s not about me. It’s about you today, my friend. And so just before we delve further into the questions I have for you, just tell us a little about your journey in dentistry and dental school so far?
[Triman]
Yeah, so, my name’s Triman. I’m 23 and I graduated dental school from King’s College, London this year in 2023 And I’m currently undertaking foundation training in part of the North London scheme at Ivy House Dental and I also recently wrote an article that was in the BDJ student just looking at the preparedness of newly graduated students like myself for independent practice, which is very on topic for today’s discussion.
[Jaz]
Excellent. Yeah in case everyone’s watching the video on youtube and seeing me just slightly sweaty. Maybe the camera’s hiding it I’ve just had these korean buldak noodles. I don’t know if you ever had these before.
[Triman]
No, I’ve not had them before.
[Jaz]
There’s something else, my friend. So I’m enjoying that very much. So it might get a bit hot and spicy in the discussion as well. Let’s see if it transfers through. Tell me, what is your biggest worry? Like you have been, in fact, let’s take a step back. Tell me, and I hope you’re comfortable discussing this. Tell me about your experience at dental school, generally speaking. And then also how much did you actually get to do? How much experience did you qualify with bearing in mind that you were probably partially affected by COVID as well?
[Triman]
Yeah. So this was sort of like the big question that was plaguing me towards the end of my summer holidays and I was about to enter DFT and I was actually thinking how prepared am I actually for the real world of after dental school and I think, yeah, as you were saying, COVID sort of was a big factor, especially for my year.
I know that’s like the new thing for everyone to say that my year was the worst, but I guess my year I think was the worst. But for me, I started seeing patients sort of regularly from the start of fourth year, I would say, and for reference at King’s, you sort of start seeing patients. Towards the end of second year, which was when COVID hit for us.
So I didn’t really see anybody till fourth year and it was also a big backlog as well. But so it was sort of in our heads from the start anyway, for my cohort, that our clinical experience was going to be significantly more limited compared to sort of our predecessors. And I think the Kings overall, they did a pretty good job of getting us up to speed and the amount of time that we had.
And we saw sort of as many patients as we possibly could. And I think sort of towards the end, I think me, maybe my colleagues, I think we all started developing a bit of a quiet confidence about the most final year dental students have about seeing patients, getting ready to leave and. But I think, actually, when I actually started looking at my numbers when I was about to start DFT, because when you start DFT, you have to do something called an Educational Transitioning Document.
It’s basically just where you write down, sort of, the numbers of procedures that you’ve done, and how confident you feel with them, so you can share them with your educational supervisor going forward. And, for me, I was actually looking at mine, and I was thinking, there’s not actually as much dentistry as I would like.
I mean, for example, like I did about say like 50 plus fillings or so, and that seems okay, but then when you break it down and you see that I’ve only done like two amalgams, it’s not exactly the greatest and the most brimming with confidence. And then of course, there’s also procedures that. just haven’t really touched or just haven’t really got sort of like the full depth of experience. So things like endos, sort of surgical extractions, for example.
[Jaz]
And endo wise, have you not obturated before clinically on a patient basically?
[Triman]
No, I have. So I’ve done for me anyways, I did three endos. So I did, I’ve done one incisor, canine. I think I did one molar as well. And that was sort of from start to finish, but assisted so I was quite fortunate that I got to at least a mix of sort of like 3 teeth But I think that was sort of the benchmark for most of my cohort as well. I think most people had about that much. I mean, we just had an induction day actually for foundation training and they got everyone sort of general consensus. How many endos has everyone done? I think sort of, it ranged from about one to six, so you could be anywhere on that scale.
[Jaz]
Yeah. And I mean, that is a bit like, I’ve said this many times on podcasts before when I’ve had a young guest on like yourself, which is, learning to drive, just because you’ve got the driving license doesn’t mean you actually really know how to drive.
You actually really learn how to drive once you get the license, then you’re out in the real world, and that’s when you learn. It’s a bit like that in dentistry, and that’s why it’s called the practice of dentistry. So don’t feel bad about that. Definitely start with some simpler endocases, and then obviously read up before, watch some videos of the premolar.
And when you’ve got a molar, make sure you pick the molar with the nice young patient with the nice wide canals, easy to find the anatomy, and if you’ve got anything tricky, then make sure that you book extra time and all these things. So I think, this is very, very normal for dentists qualifying nowadays, and it is what it is.
So it’s about what you do afterwards. Not a single person’s success in dentistry, I think, was determined by their totals. It’s all about, for me, I think it’s all about emotional intelligence, how you communicate with the patients, how you care for your patients. And that’s the most important thing of all the procedures and stuff that you’ve done. Is there one that you’re particularly maybe scared of? Like imagine next week you had this in your diary, would you be crapping your pants a little bit?
[Triman]
I mean, I think for most DFT students, they could probably make a little tier list of which ones they hate the most. I’ve probably got one in my mind, but I mean, everyone’s go to is, oh, I don’t want to do a molar RCT, which I won’t disagree with as well.
Cause I’m not the best of them either. But I think also surgical extractions in particular, just for me particularly, at King’s, I mean, it was sort of like a code word, if someone said that my extraction went surgical, it meant that they just had to suction for the rest of the section, because the tutor would just take over and do it, and you wouldn’t really know too much of why they’re doing it this way, so I think that would be sort of the procedure that I would be dreading the most, but fortunately, my ES (Education Supervisor) isn’t that cruel, so he’s not going to chuck me in and immediately just do a surgical extraction, but I think we’ve got a bunch of oral surgery study days coming up, so that would be nice to actually get some insight into the theory of actually, how to do a social extraction, flap design, bow removal, sectioning, all that stuff, yeah.
[Jaz]
Do you mind if we just talk about that a little bit? Do you mind if I almost, like, coach you and give some advice about extraction and stuff, right? So, what you’re saying, it holds true, in my experience, I qualified ten years before you, and when I came out, there are some extractions that, once the crown broke off, and the roots weren’t budging, It was game over for me.
I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t feel confident. It was very embarrassing to me. I hated it. And I took that, those emotions that I had within me. At that point, I’m just closing my eyes. I’m just really pitching myself. And that’s, I remember the patient’s face. I felt so low. I felt so disappointed in myself.
I let the patient down. And that’s what sort of drove me to really start shadowing some oral surgeons and just generally picking up as many tips. And nowadays, I can look at a radiograph, make a correct assessment, and most extractions I’m happy to do. Very few that I refer out, and nothing fazes me anymore in terms of extractions, even surgical wisdom teeth.
And I think that all of that stems from, again, something I’ve talked about in the podcast before, but it’s really important for those perhaps who are new to the podcast to hear this, is most of my molar extractions, are going to be sectioned. No flap involved, flapless, but just section from the start.
Don’t wait for the crown to break off before you section. And so the skill I was lacking to remember when I qualified was the sectioning, the ability to section confidence. But the thing I want to say to you and to all your cohort of new grads is, sectioning is just getting the biggest, baddest diamond bur you have, all the tons of carbide, and just cutting the tooth in half.
It’s really nothing more than that for a lower molar, for example, right? We did an episode around 80 something with Chris Waith about this topic, and in the comments of that section, someone towards the end of the DF1 wrote, you know, after this episode, I did my first section elevation today. I felt so good.
And so don’t be afraid of going in section elevate. Maybe you have a tutorial with your trainer, but the top tip for me is don’t worry too much about flap designs, but do spend extra energy and time and just learning how to section teeth so that that’s going to help make teeth are otherwise difficult to extract for you. For me, they were certainly were much, much more possible.
[Triman]
Yeah, definitely. I think also just having had a few tutorials so far with, by ES, I think it’s really given me a bit of appreciation of actually the pre op radiograph, as you’re saying, do I need to actually do a flap? Do I need to section the tooth? And what’s the plan going to be? Is there an ABCD plan that I’m going to have? So I think. Yeah, hopefully I’ll sort of get a bit more of an appreciation for that as I go through.
[Jaz]
Well, I’ll be sure to ask you about that in about nine months time or so. With that, I love that you said that already, and you’re wise beyond your years to say that you should have a plan. I didn’t know that you should have a plan for extraction until I was about two or three years qualified. It’s just a concept I didn’t consider. Like, extraction is like, okay, let me try this. If this doesn’t work on the spot, I’ll think, okay, what should I do next? So really, everything should be premeditated.
Like, okay, first I’m going to section. If it comes out great, if it doesn’t section, I’m then next going to do this. I’m next going to remove that furcal bone, for example. I’m next going to then use the cryers and just have some sort of a rough plan which you’re willing to change, but it’s good to go in with a plan. I 100% agree and I think you’re very good to recognize that already.
[Triman]
Thank you.
[Jaz]
What’s your biggest worry? You don’t feel particularly prepared. And that’s true, my friend, that you’ll always be that way. You’ve told me already that the procedures, surgical extraction would be scaring your cohort. Molar endos. It definitely was the same for me as well. What kind of plans and goals you have for the year? Because you’re this generation, like when I was qualifying, there wasn’t this Instagram Dentistry at that time. It just didn’t exist. Instagram was mostly for food and that kind of stuff and holidays, basically.
There wasn’t a dental home for Instagram. And now you can see all this amazing work. Tell me about your perception of the world of dentistry and what you see on social media and how that might impact you and your vision.
[Triman]Yeah, so I mean for me, personally, I wasn’t a big social media guy. Probably before dentistry, but I did sort of, I mean, my sister just last week had to tell me how to teach me how to upload a story, which is sort of how out of the touch I am, so, but yeah, now I’m sort of getting the idea of it and the hang of it, but yeah, there’s a lot of, I think, dentistry, just sort of social media, Instagram is one of them, but, even when you get recently, some of the study days we’ve had, a lot of speakers have come in and literally they will always, always write their Instagram handle.
And these are some of the pictures that they have and they’ve publicized. I think it forms a big part of creating that sort of portfolio. And it’s something I’m sort of slowly trying to ingrain myself into as well, just to sort of catch up to what everyone else is doing, but also just to sort of see.
I think it’s nice to have, I think particularly with Instagram because it’s image based, having a actual photographic recollection of all the work that you’ve done for not only yourself but for patients and just for colleagues just to share cases as well.
[Jaz]
Totally agree. So it becomes like a portfolio and I know lots of dentists who’ve been sort of head hunted based on their work that they show me like, Hey, you look decent. Would you like to come to work for my all singing, all dancing practice? I’ve seen that happen before. So that’s one thing. But has it perhaps given you delusional sense or perhaps this worry that you’re seeing this amazing work and then when you’re looking at the very early on the journey and thinking hang on It’s not quite looking like what I’m seeing on social media It’s a bit like I guess in the beauty magazines how everyone’s airbrushed and stuff and then and then people think oh, yeah I’m not so good looking etc.
But really it’s the same applied to dentistry. You see all this beautiful, polished stuff on social media that’s been hand picked, cherry picked, the highlight reels. Have you suffered, or do you know anyone who’s been sort of having mixed feelings about that?
[Triman]
I think, yeah, pretty much everyone in my year. I think, as you’re saying, yeah, I think it’s important to remember that it’s cherry picked, it’s almost a false idealization in some cases. I mean, this is them showcasing their best work. I mean, you don’t really see anybody saying, this is a case that went really badly. And then posting lots of images and how they can improve.
It’s more that this is like an amazing composite that I did. Look at it from start to finish. And this is the protocol that I use. And this sort of presented as like a gold standard. But I think a lot of micro what they, sometimes you can get down on yourself. Why is my composite not like that?
I mean, I remember just sort of chatting to a lot of my colleagues, all of them sort of say that, I’m really struggled to get the anatomy right on the composites to make it look just like it is on Instagram. And that’s sort of like a common thing, but I think also it’s important to realize as well, a lot of these are also American and they use different instruments and things.
So suddenly someone takes out some instrument you’ve never heard of in like a video that you’re watching. But I think it’s important to realize, yeah, that these are sort of their best work that they’re showcasing and they might be doing a completely different protocol to you. And also, functionally, who knows how long what they’ve put in the mouth has also lasted as well.
[Jaz]
And the saying goes, do you follow football, Triman?
[Triman]
Slightly, but not the best.
[Jaz]
Well, there’s a saying in football, right? Where if a team is doing really well, they’re winning all the trophies and they’re playing good. And then you say, but can they do it at stoke on a cold Tuesday night? Can they do it in those, in that different environment, a more hostile environment. So really. Your environment, the kind of mixed practice you might be in, for example, is completely different to what the kind of environments that people are working in. So I would encourage all our young graduates to not to get bamboozled, disillusioned by what you see.
Keep a cool head about you. And the only person to compare to is yourself. So Triman, I’d love for you to now, when we speak to you in about nine months or so, to when you look back and say, you know what, I’m looking back on my own work rather than I’m looking to Instagram as the standard, right? So my next question that leads on from that, Triman, is have you got any plans or have you been ready starting to document your work?
[Triman]
Yeah, so I think one of the first spends for my paycheck is going to be camera and getting a good one at that I think mainly not even just for the so I can post this on social media as you’re saying just to document my work see how I can improve I think it’ll be really telling just to take a picture of my first amalgam and then compare it to one six seven months down the line and see where I improved and why I can actually do better. So I think, yeah, definitely. That’s one of the things on the to do list. Once the first check cash is.
[Jaz]
I’m so glad you said that. I was kind of hoping you would say that. So amazing. Please do follow through with that. Do not get tempted by that ski holiday. I would definitely say get the camera instead is my top tip to you.
So well done for doing that. And I’m going to hold you accountable for that. So remember when you reappear on the podcast, I’m going to ask you, okay, how’s the photos going? So you better have an answer for that, right?
[Triman]
Yeah, I’ve got one already.
[Jaz]
Good man. Brilliant. So I’m glad that’s all in check. In terms of career aspirations, it’s funny when you speak to someone who’s newly qualified, they’re a little bit starry eyed and stuff. Just tell me, what kind of direction do you think you want your career to go in?
[Triman]
Yeah, I mean, this is sort of an interesting one. I mean, a lot of people at dental school, especially even when you like, even in BDS1, the first year, a lot of people will come in saying that, I want to specialize in this or this or this.
I mean, for me, I feel like, my stance right now is that, I haven’t actually done enough dentistry to figure out what I like and what I don’t like. I know that we were joking before about procedures that you don’t like to do, but I feel like I haven’t actually done enough of every single procedure to say that with a passion, I don’t like doing this.
I don’t like doing this because I just don’t think I’ve had enough experience. I think so far I quite like doing a mix of everything. There isn’t one thing that if I would sort of say I’d really love to specialize in this because I don’t think I’d be able to choose right now. I think. I enjoy doing a mix of everything, just familiarizing myself with all the different sort of specialties that dentistry have to offer and just sort of, yeah, I think in terms of a plan, I think right now, I think my plan is just to become really good at all of the basics and I think that in time would hopefully make me become a lot more efficient and effective.
[Jaz]
Well said. And I think, the saying goes, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your Prince Charming, right? So, you have to do, you have to experience this, you have to experience failure in endo, failure in extractions, and then you might be inspired on a course one day and then go delve deeper into perio or wherever it could be.
So I’m really glad you’re keeping your options open. Again, I’ll ask you again in the future, see, perhaps you’ve niched down, maybe you said, maybe you’ve decided that you never want to do an endo ever again or whatever. Let’s see. It’ll be interesting to see what you say then. Those are all the questions I had for today, Triman.
Is there anything else? Anything else that you want to add in this first of two parts when I catch you again nine months to see how you’re getting on? Anything else you want to add to this? Maybe it’s like a time capsule thing, a message to yourself for the future.
[Triman]
Yeah, I mean, I guess I think if there’s any future advice for future Triman, it would be just to, I think. I think the message is sort of the same as it was for me in dental school. Just try and learn as much from as wide array of clinicians as there is as possible. I mean, we’re very fortunate that we can have our ES at our practice. There’s other dentists at the practice. There’s a wide variety of study day speakers who’ve so far been really good.
And I think the same thing at dental school, I think there’s always something that you can take away from every dentist that you see. You might not agree with everything that they’re doing, but if there’s even just one thing, as simple as, oh, I like the way they did that child examination, I might do that next time.
I think it’s a good thing to be able to just sort of try and amalgamate as much experience as possible from everybody and, sure, make yourself become a more well rounded dentist overall.
[Jaz]
Amazing 2023, Triman. I really appreciate chatting to you today. I look forward to speaking to you in 2024, Truman. Okay, Truman, I’ve lost count of when we recorded. It’s been many months, maybe five months, seven months, I don’t know. But whenever it was, I’m eager to know, okay? In the order. Did you buy a camera?
[Triman]
So the straight answer is not yet, but planning to going to. So the reason is just because as part of DFT, the practice part of the training equipment list is to have a DSLR camera. So I’ve been using that throughout the year. And the main reason is really, because I wanted to just get a better feel as to what settings were best for me before I just blindly bought something just because it was on like a recommended list. And I think doing so has been really useful because it’s given me a better idea as to what settings I’m most comfortable with, what kind of interface I like, so now I sort of have a better idea of what kind of camera I want to go to.
[Jaz]
So it was like a training ground. You were just perfecting the technique, getting used to it. Tell me this, where, where was the camera actually kept? Like, was it in your surgery? Was it in your principal surgery? Different place?
[Triman]
So I’m quite fortunate that my ES had given me my own sort of dedicated camera. So it was only me who was using it. I just bought my own SD cards. It was pretty much in my surgery the whole time. So no one else aside from me used it. So I was able to really wear the thing out and sort of get as much practice as possible with it. And so figure out that, I like the Nikon interface, for example, I’m using like a hundred millimeter lens.
I’ve got a ring flash currently, but I might experiment with like a twin flash in the future. So it’s given me a good foundation. For getting started with dental photography, because it’s really something that you’re not really taught a lot at university. I mean, I remember when I was at King’s, I mean, for my case presentation, there was just, there’d be one big camera on the whole floor and they’d just hand it to you.
And it’s probably like a 2000, 3000 pound camera, but there was no one there to tell you how to use it. You’ve just got to sort of hold it and hope to God that it works. But now that we’ve actually have study days as well on photography in London, so there’s a lot better understanding of actually understanding what the specific settings actually mean.
And they give you a prescribed set of things that are settings that they would like you to use. But it’s very different for everybody because people, some people are shorter, some people are taller. Some people will go closer up to the patient some than others. So, it’s a good starting point, but you find that rather you have to adjust some settings accordingly, just how you practice really. And so that’s what I’ve been doing.
[Jaz]
The most important thing is that you’ve been taking photos, right? So that’s the most important thing for me. The reason I’m asking you whether it’s in your surgeries, because top tip is make sure for anyone out there, make sure it is in your surgery and make sure it’s fully set up.
Like the last thing you want to do is, oh, I need to take a photo, but actually you need to now attach the lens to the body and then attach the ring flash. You’re never going to get photos that way, right? So that was just a reminder to everyone to make sure that yeah, fair enough, you have a camera, but if it’s not set up and ready to go, it really has to be in your surgery, set up. Any shots that you struggle with, any shots that you find difficult to take?
[Triman]
So originally I would say at the start, I was probably struggling the most with taking the occlusal views and I actually watched one of your videos on taking occlusal views. And I actually just screenshotted the positioning on the screen and used that as a reference point.
And it’s been going pretty well since then. So I think mainly because I was at the start being trying to DIY it do it all myself. And actually I wasn’t making use of the patient, my nurse who was next to me and once they taking a set of 90 percent of the positioning was just a matter of focusing, positioning myself how I wanted to, to capture sort of the full extent of the teeth, which is what I was sort of missing out on at the start. So I think now I’m a lot better.
[Jaz]
It’s a classic, it’s very tricky to get the occlusal shot. So glad you watched that video. And the top tip for everyone is this is where all photography is make sure you get a setup light enough. There’s two options, really get a setup light enough. They can hold with one hand or hit the gym really hard.
So your one hand becomes really strong so you can pick up your camera. So one of two options, one is easier. So everyone just make sure you actually assess the weight by holding it in one hand, then with the other hand, having the mirror. You don’t even need a nurse then, the patient can just use a retractors.
[Triman]
Yeah.
[Jaz]
So that helps massively. So yeah, good. I’m glad. I’m just so pleased you’re using photography. Next question is, you told me, Triman, that molar endo and surgicals were a fear procedure. We all have fear procedures, right? Has that changed? Has that gone deeper? Has it changed for one or both? How much experience have you had of each?
[Triman]
So I’d say, yeah, definitely. It has changed for being specifically, fear procedure, like you say, I mean it’s definitely both, I still consider very difficult procedures in general, which i’m sure most dentists will but I think the main reason it was more of a fear procedure was because of the limited experience that I generally had coming out of dental school, you know partly due to covid etc I think I probably did about three endos in total coming out of university and I did more than that in like my first month of DFT.
So there’s a really big sort of learning curve, but you sort of trial by fire. You really sort of pick up a lot, just doing a lot more. And on my particular scheme, I was fortunate enough that they had like four endo study days throughout the year. So it’s a really, drill it into you and they give you a more of a definitive protocol study as well to use, which is really useful.
But I think the main thing that has really reduced the fear associated with the procedure for both of them is just understanding the reasons behind why I’m doing certain things in the protocol. I mean, in university, you’re often just given a protocol and you expect it to sort of just blindly follow it really.
But it’s nice actually having an understanding as to why I’m doing certain things for like an example with the access cavity in university, or maybe like told, okay, these are the specific shapes that you need to get. These are cut through. But now, I mean, sort of in our early study days, we’re sort of more told to create like an initial pilot hole and then chase the overhangs.
And then, it will naturally achieve that same shape that you’re being told to make, but it’s a lot more conservative and that makes a lot more sense when, especially when things go wrong, like they’re not able to find canal, you can angle, your BP probe, and you can search for areas where you need to get that straight line access.
And it is a lot more helpful than just blindly doing like a rhomboid shape and thinking where the canals. So it’s really has been a lot more useful doing just understanding the reasoning behind stuff. And similarly with surgical extractions, having a better understanding of the preoperative planning behind doing even just a routine extraction and having that ABC plan to fall back on.
So now if I’m taking out like maybe a heavily broken down tooth, for example, I’ll have a little bit of a better idea of how to appraise the preoperative radiograph. And my plan a might be to look, say maybe use smaller elevators to reduce the risk of fracture, maybe use a cow horns, because the tooth is quite broken down.
If that doesn’t work, I might be able to split the tooth in half with the cow horns, or I might need to section it and then elevate the roots out. Or I might need to then, if that doesn’t work plan C, then do an access flap, maybe draw some bone and elevate the roots out separately. But it’s nice having that understanding of what can happen if things go wrong. And that’s made it less of a fear procedure, but not, so much as an easy procedure, but definitely less of a feared procedure.
[Jaz]
Well, it definitely sounds like you’ve developed and gained some experience, which really is the magic sauce, right? You get the experience and then you gain so much in that year that you have with your educational supervisor, interesting thing you said about having a plan.
I love that you recognize that everyone should have a plan for every extraction. Just now I finished a tricky extraction. I knew that I was going to section because there’s tricky molar, root field, gold crown, vertical root fracture. So I spit the gold crown off first, that came out fine. Sectioned the tooth in half straight away, preserved the bone.
Mesial root, which had the vertical root fracture, came out very easily because it was all infected. Distal root was an absolute bugger and it kept chipping away, kept chipping away. The main takeaway that I can share with everyone while we’re talking about this is by switching the suction. So you know, that little, the suction, the microsurgical suction tip?
Zoe was using it and helping me out, but it just wasn’t good enough. So after about a few minutes, I said Zoe could just switch the suction. I think maybe it’s blocked. And then she got the new suction out and boom, suddenly I could see and then you know exactly where to put your Luxator.
And so the reason I mentioned this is because it reminds me of another tip, which people on Protrusive Guidance, our app, they are often saying that this is the number one tip that they gain from the podcast. It’s not even my rule. It’s a rule I picked up from like third degree from someone, which is the six second rule. Are you familiar with the six second rule?
[Triman]
No, not particularly.
[Jaz]
Okay, the six second rule. No one knows why it’s exactly six seconds, but it’s just got a nice ring to it. Basically, if you’re doing something when it comes to an extraction, anything, right? And you do that thing for six seconds, and nothing’s really changing or improving, go to the next step.
Change it. So if you’re using a luxator for six seconds and literally nothing is happening, okay, think what can you do next? Get a big luxator, get a different instrument, change your angulation, whatever. And that has helped me because sometimes you’re doing the same thing over and over again.
And you’re not achieving anything. So the six second rule has been quite a hot one on Protrusive Guidance in terms of people saying it’s their favorite one. So great. I’m glad you’re feeling more confident in Molar endo, Surgicals. You told me already about the camera. Now tell me, overall, what have you enjoyed about your DF1 experience and what have you not enjoyed?
[Triman]
Yeah. I mean, I would say, I think probably the biggest change is coming from university. The thing I’ve enjoyed the most is actually just the change in pace. From the very long sessions that most people are accustomed to in university, which is, you have one big morning session, one big afternoon session, you do as much sort of treatment as possible.
And I think actually having that broad range of patients and just slowly becoming that change of pace and being a bit more quicker and actually being a bit more efficient with the time, I would say is the best way to put it. It’s been a lot more fruitful and it’s well, it makes it a lot more enjoyable, the dentistry rather than there’s a lot of lost time in university, waiting for the tutor to come over and then they’ll agree with the treatment plan. It might change.
[Jaz]
I used to hate that. I used to hate that so much. I’m making a small talk with your patient. That was the worst thing ever.
[Triman]
With like a 30 minute wait.
[Jaz]
Yeah, exactly.
[Triman]
So now I think having the clinical freedom to actually make use of the time effectively and just call my ES. If I’m struggling with something and they won’t take 30 minutes to arrive, hopefully then it’s been a lot more enjoyable in that sense.
I think that’s probably the biggest enjoyment in terms of like particular procedures. Again, I would say actually root canal and extractions and also indirect restorations, like resin bonded bridges and on lays in particular, which I didn’t really get to touch upon at dental school a lot again, for the same reason of, I just have a better understanding of the procedures.
And so I really enjoy now actually being able to do them because I have a better understanding of what might happen if things go wrong and there’s a bit more of a problem solving element. Which is sort of I think the main enjoyable part of dentistry really having, when you understand something, it’s really useful and it makes this procedure a lot more enjoyable because you know that, okay, if this doesn’t work, then I’ve got the problem solving, skill set at least to resolve it.
Whereas that a lot of those fear procedures is just you being stuck on something for a long time. So that’s probably the thing I’ve enjoyed the most really. And in terms of, less enjoyed. I mean, I’m probably quite easy, easy to please. And I enjoy a lot of everything. I think probably the most uncomfortable thing that I’m probably not as good at and confident at yet is probably discussing costs or so with patients.
I would say, particularly around private treatment. And this was sort of one thing I mentioned in one of the recent articles I’ve published in BDJ in practice about being prepared as an associate for next year, as a DFT, because of the nature of the contract, you have to do, I think 95 percent NHS work and a lot of the patients you see up high needs.
And so a lot of them are exempt as well. So there’s not a lot of discussion around costs. And so gaining more experience and just being able to naturally communicate these are the sort of the different treatment options available. These are the private treatment options available. And then having that discussion of costs without coming across as too forceful or too passive as well is something I think I would like to gain a lot more experience in just because I haven’t been exposed to it as much.
[Jaz]
You’re so right. I totally imagine myself back in DF1 and that’s a great point you made and you definitely need to keep practicing and try and get it out of your mouth. That whole neuro physical connection, basically being able to say the price and know how things are supposed to be priced to make sure that your practice is running profitably, to make sure that at the end of the day, we love what you do, but we still need to pay the bills, put food on the plate.
So therefore we need to be able to have that skill. And you’re right in DF1, because you’re doing so much of that type of work with the patients who are exempt, you don’t get to practice that as much. So it’s important to be comfortable in your own skin, be proud of your skills and procedures, and be able to also just for transparency and clear communication, the patient needs to know the price, you know who are really bad at telling you the price and stuff, doctors, in my experience, private doctors, and they will just do all sorts, but they’re just terrible.
And then the worst thing is you actually speak to the practice manager or the people who are like their secretaries. And I say, by the way, how much will this cost? They’re like, I can’t say, I’m not sure yet. And really the price list that we have for a crown for endo in the medical world, in my experience, that really doesn’t exist.
And so, especially in the insurance world, it’s really, really complicated. So I think let’s not be like those doctors. Let’s be really clear with the price. And so that’s a great point you made. And you’re going to gain that experience as you go along. And it’s also the top tip I can give here is when you are communicating the price.
It’s really important to be confident when you say it. It’s really important not to look away because just like you said, and I only say this because when you are new to talking about money and not talking about price, a lot of dentists will lack confidence. I certainly did. Okay. I come from a type of background where it made it very, very difficult for me to talk about the cost of dentistry.
And so, common mistakes as people, dentists look away or their voice changes a little bit or it cracks or whatever. So to have that practice and conviction, and that’s a great point you made. And so Triman, last question is, did you find a niche or are you happy to still want to experience everything and enjoy all aspects of general dentistry? That’s what you said. You like the idea of general dentistry. Have you found a little passion within dentistry or are you still looking? Are you still searching?
[Triman]
Yeah, I think probably the one answer that’s probably stayed the same since we last spoke is me probably wanting a bit more experience again, trying to find out which disciplines I really like more than others. And I know I’ve gained a lot of experience throughout this year, but I was still quite new to dentistry in general. Foundation year, no pun intended has lived up to his name and providing me with a good foundation to start sort of building my career as a dentist. And so when I finished dental school, there was quite a lot of gaps in knowledge, which a lot of people have, and DFT really just helps sort of bridge those gaps and close them off.
So you now sort of have a nice base to work with. And I feel a lot more well rounded now as a dentist. So I think I’ve dipped my toe in a lot of different disciplines, but I don’t say there’s one thing in particular that draws me in particular to, I think I need to now delve further into areas that I’m interested in.
For example, I’ve booked like the composite course this weekend, which I’m going on. So that’s something which I’ve developed the fundamentals on throughout the year, which has been really useful, but now I’m sort of looking to really delve further into that topic. And I think that’s where dentistry goes from being that science to more of that art form and which as well.
Patients are going to be paying the premium for the art form part of the dentistry that you’re doing. So I think right now I’m enjoying general dentistry and I’ve sort of got a good hold on certain areas, but now I think it’s just figuring out what I like and maybe going through different courses, maybe doing something else and just sort of exploring topics a little bit further. So, and then figuring out sort of how I progress from that. So right now, somewhat of an interest in lots of different areas, but we’re really sort of exploring.
[Jaz]
Well, whatever you do, make sure after the composite course, you have someone to implement whatever new skill they’ve learned. It’s really important to do that. Otherwise it becomes lost. There are some courses out there which teach you a very specific technique or a very specific way of doing things. It might take you six months to find a patient. And by then you’re like, Oh my goodness, how do I implement this? It’s human nature, right? So make sure you implement straight away.
And so the last question I have, Triman, is, what’s the number one tip you can give someone who’s made it all the way to the end of this episode, listening to you, this little interesting feature that we had six, nine months apart, wherever it’s been, seeing your journey and stuff, and very encouraging actually to anyone, maybe to start a foundation here to hear the story that you’re sharing. What’s your top tip to give to them?
[Triman]
Yeah, I would say I’ve actually had a quantity of people messaging me recently for tips on DFT, going into my practice. So I’m well equipped for this question. So I would say that the main thing I would say is actually just try and learn as much from everyone around you.
I know in DFT, it’s easy to just click on to your ES only, but it actually, in my practice as well, specifically, there’s lots of different associates there who are willing to help you, especially, if you’re fortunate enough to have specialists in your practice as well, like in my case, I have an oral surgeon who comes once in a blue moon or so, but whenever he’s there i’ll always take the opportunity to show him an extraction I’m doing that day where I’ve got planned because he’ll provide him with so many small useful tips. Just from you know his wealth of knowledge and I think it’s really important to just make use of everyone that you have in the practice as well whether that be nurses reception as well and just yeah, general other general dentists there aside from just your ES who is going to be able to help you because it’s really good to gain knowledge from a bunch of different places.
And in fact, one of the good things that both my ES do is that they will actually say, you know what? I’m not super skilled in this area with like bridges, for example. Let’s go ask one of the other dentists here who does a lot of resin bonded bridges, for example. And they’ll even learn with me as well.
So it’s good to, I think, gain knowledge from a lot of different areas. And so definitely make the most of your practice as a whole, and not just the single ES that’s there. Try and make use of everything and everybody that you have.
[Jaz]
And that’s a great tip, by the way. And I would say, don’t get frustrated by the fact that the four dentists in your practice will all give you four different treatment plans and four different bits of advice and they may contradict each other.
And instead of focusing on seeing that as a negative, see it as a positive that you know what, you could pick any of those paths and you’ll probably be right. And so if you convert that negativity into a positive thing, trust me, you’ll be well placed the rest of your career because it used to really frustrate me, Triman, you know, all these, ah, why isn’t there just one way of doing things?
Why’d that, why’d that have to be 50 different ways? Why is one, two to tell me one thing? Why different to it, tell me a different thing. It used to frustrate me, but I’ve learned to see the beauty of it. Actually, either way, whichever one resonates with me on that particular day where I’m making the decision, I’ll go with that and I made peace with that.
I think that’s very liberating. So, Triman, thanks so much for sharing those many months apart. It’s been really nice to hear about your journey. What you got planned for next year? Are you thinking about applying for jobs or?
[Triman]
Yeah. So I’ve actually taken up sort of two associate positions at two different practices next year. So are we making the transition into sort of full finalists?
[Jaz]
How did you find them? How did you find the associate job?
[Triman]
So I went on a couple of different job searching website. I think indeed, BDJ jobs, those kinds of areas. And there’s a couple of licensing, not the very licensing agents, but a recruitment agencies that are on those websites.
So even if you apply to one job, the recruitment agency will get hold of your info and you’ll see a stream for them in coming afterwards. There’s also lots of different avenues to sort of once you search one place, you’ll end up finding a lot of different places and it’s such a high turnover that you see so many different ones posted every single day.
So it’s really just sort of a matter of looking and then calling the practice and seeing if your ideals meet really, that’s sort of how I went about it and eventually I ended up finding two that were in good proximity to me. I had good reviews. I really enjoyed seeing the practice and that kind of thing really. And it was, I think the best sort of way to go about it.
[Jaz]
Triman, I wish you all the best with your next year. It’s good that you’ve survived DF1. Well done. And you definitely come out, stronger, better for your dentistry, which is great. And I’m excited for your composite course and also for your future, my friend.
Keep in touch with the Protruserati. Hope to see you on Protrusive Guidance. It’d be great for you to post a few cases now. And again, that’d be nice to see in your progress. It’s we’re all kind of invested in it now. So we’re rooting for you Triman. You keep going, sir.
[Triman]
So yeah, thank you so much, Jaz. Really nice speaking to you.
Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it, guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. Hopefully that was useful insights, especially if you’re entering the real world of dentistry. I’m very impressed with Triman’s attitude. I think he’s going to go very far. I think he’s got his head screwed on. I’m very excited to follow up his progress in his career.
If you found this prospective episode useful, if you found the library of protrusive episodes helpful, would you mind leaving us a review? We’d really appreciate that. That’s how we grow. There is a team behind us. We have Erika, the producer. We’ve got Krissel and Nav on the notes. We’ve got our CPD queen, Mari.
This episode isn’t eligible for CPD, but if you’re a dentist, by the way, and we are now PACE approved. Oh my God. Okay. So I need to do a big announcement about the PACE approval. So probably not many people are going to hear this one, but there’s a big announcement coming PACE is basically like the US governing body for quality controlling education.
And it was a long and arduous process, but we are now officially PACE approved. So the US docs can now get official accreditation. So we’re literally this month sorting that out as well. For those episodes that are eligible, but for the rest of the library, which is eligible for CPD or CE credits, that’s on Protrusive Guidance.
That’s our app. You can actually scan. If you’re watching this YouTube scan, the QR code below, join us on the iOS or Android, or if you’re like a laptop kind of guy like me, hit protrusive.app in your browser, check out the community of the nicest and geekiest dentists in the world. Thanks so much for listening all the way to the end.
I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.
Associate contracts are actually a HUGE deal that we do not give enough attention to…
How long can your principal keep your retention for?
Is it really true you cannot work within a certain radius?
How principals and associates may be getting screwed over by the poor contract!
Finding the right principal/associate is very exciting, so much so that we sometimes forget how important it is to read through the small print of our contract.
This can prove very costly in the future in our industry where mistakes do happen, so it is extremely important to be aware of what we are signing up for.
https://youtu.be/lC_POxlmL_UWatch IC051 on YoutubeJoin us today with Neel Jaiswal and Sarah Buxton for a breakdown of how to negotiate the right contract for you, the power of being an Associate in this day and age, and the importance of Insurance. There’s a lot more in this episode so don’t miss out…’Court is in session!’
Highlights of this Episode:02:08 Sarah Buxton and Dr Neel Jaiswal
08:40 Associate Contracts
11:15 Who Checks the Contract?
13:50 Contract Bias towards Principals?
18:50 Getting Contracts Checked
21:28 Retention of Fees
30:48 Annual Leave
35:00 Exclusion Zones
43:04 Vicarious Liability
52:18 How to get in touch
Paying through the nose for your indemnity? You may get better protection with insurance AND it has saved Dentists £1000s – get a quote today from PDI / AllMedPro and get an additional £100 off (this is a promotional link that will save you money)
For the full educational experience, our Ultimate Education Plan gives you access to all our courses, webinars, and exclusive monthly content. This includes Vertipreps for Plonkers and clinical videos demonstrating Onlay Preps.
If you liked this episode, you will also like GF019 – Indemnity vs Insurance
Have you ever considered Dental Aid Work?
Imagine giving up your morning starbucks and your air conditioned dental surgery to work in a developing country that has just 7 dentists.
Fellow Protruserati, Dr James Hunter and his young family will be doing just this – they are preparing for a four-year mission to Liberia, Africa, to dedicate themselves to dental aid work.
Follow along as we delve into their story of skill, passion, and humanitarianism.
https://youtu.be/lzKVmuuUvBIWatch IC050 on YoutubeHighlights of this Episode:
00:00 Introduction
2:52 From Theology to Dentistry
5:35 Dr. James on Dentistry
06:44 The Decision to Move to Liberia for Aid Work
09:52 Understanding Liberia’s History and Needs
15:28 The Future Plans for Dental Aid in Liberia
18:37 Motivations Behind the Mission
20:04 The Challenge of Committing to Charity Work
20:57 Financial Planning, Schooling and Adaptation for Children Abroad
26:40 Sharing Experiences and Encouraging Aid Work
28:13 Raising Awareness and Support for the Mission
32:09 Closing Thoughts and Encouragement
Be sure to visit https://www.thehuntersinliberia.co.uk/ for details on supporting charity work in Liberia. Additionally, explore other charity websites in your country for more ways to make a difference locally.
This episode is not eligible for CPD/CE points, but never fear, there are hundreds of hours of CPD waiting for you on the Protrusive App!
For the full educational experience, our Ultimate Education Plan gives you access to all our courses, webinars, and exclusive monthly content. This includes Vertipreps for Plonkers and clinical videos demonstrating Onlay Preps.
If you enjoyed this episode, don’t miss out on watching “The International Dental Student – From Ukraine to Egypt to Slovakia – IC047”
Dental Student in THREE different countries?!
This is a story of grit and determination. I hope that it will allow us all to reconnect with that burning desire we once had to enter our profession.
In this episode, we meet Nav, AKA the_stu_Dent who has had the craziest journey as a Dental Student. Not only defined as a mature student, but as a British born overseas one now working his way to qualifying in Slovakia, with hopes of eventually returning to the UK where he wants to practice full time in the near future.
https://youtu.be/wK1INeI_gdQWatch IC047 on YoutubeCheck out this entertaining episode, where we uncover what makes the_stu_Dent tick and why he ended up pursuing Dentistry with such determination, the highs and lows, and how he ended up trying at 3 different Universities in 3 different countries, just to fulfill his dreams.
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights
01:35 – Nav, the-stu-dent Introduction
04:25 – Why Ukraine and what year did The-stu-dent enter?
09:18 – How did Egypt come about?
14:16 – Failure was not an option
16:24 – What happened when The-stu-dent visited Egypt first-time around?
19:14 – 3rd STOP – Slovakia.
21:54 – What are the fees like in Slovakia?
25:13 – What was the decision behind choosing Slovakia over alternative countries in the EU?
27:15 – What has The-Students experience of Slovakia been like, and how much clinical exposure do you get?
30:58 – Are you working part-time to fund your dentistry?
35:17 – What are The-Stu-dents final words of Wisdom?
Access the CPD quiz through our app on https://www.protrusive.app, either on your browser or by downloading our mobile app.
For the full educational experience, our Ultimate Education Plan gives you access to all our courses, webinars, and exclusive monthly content. Join us on Protrusive Guidance, our own platform for dental professionals. No need for Facebook anymore! 😉
If you liked this episode, you will also like PS002 – Adhesive Dentistry for Beginners
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: Imagine being a mature dental student who has to go to study in Ukraine. And then you realize actually the course you're on actually was potentially a fake course, and then you had to go to Egypt.Jaz’s Introduction:
And then for one reason or another, which we will reveal on this podcast, you end up then moving, transferring to Slovakia, and it’s now been something like seven years, but you’re only still in your third year.
Sounds crazy. I know, but trust me, this guy, Nav Bhatti. His desire and his hunger to get into dentistry is amazing. It’s really admirable and I think he’s got a really funny story if he doesn’t mind me saying this. It’s funny because, like, he’s the type of guy who’s very happy go lucky. He’s very straight talking.
He’s humble and someone who you can look back and laugh about it. But he’s been through a real tough time with all these countries. And I have so much respect for, again, once again, for his desire and his hunger. And so now he’s in a good place in Slovakia, but it makes for a fantastic episode. I think guy’s in for a real treat, something a little bit different.
This is the kind of episode that you listen to once you’ve had a really hard day at work. And maybe you’re not ready for like, immediate dentine sealing and deep margin elevation and air particle abrasion. You actually just want to just listen to a protrusive podcast that’s a bit more light and you’re just curious.
You’re curious as to what leads a dental student from country to country to country in the pursuit of their dental degree. So I hope you enjoy this interview with Nav Bhatti and I’ll catch you in the outro.
Main Episode:
Nav Bhatti, aka The Student, the most international dental student ever, which there must be a record and you must have broken every single record. So where this stems from, let’s dive right into it. Okay. What is your story, man? How do you even begin to tell your treacherous journey through dentistry? And God bless you, a couple of years away from qualifying. But how have you come? You’re in Slovakia. You’ve been in Egypt. You’ve been in Ukraine. God, you know, God bless Ukraine. What’s happening, man?
[Nav]
I’ll tell you what, it’s been a crazy, crazy story. I mean, I’m 37. So it goes to show that there’s a lot that’s happened beforehand. That’s kind of given its hand as to why dentistry and then the journey in itself. But if I was to quickly sum it up for you, I was doing a completely different life before this.
So I was a national account manager. I qualified from Brunel university in West London. I was doing economics and business finance. I came out there, worked for Heinz, for example, worked for Unilever. My account managed grocery stores as big as Morrisons online, such as Domestos and Cif, which everyone has in their household.
Dentistry was never like, no one would ever piece that together. But I actually have a brother in law of mine, who’s a big fan of the Protrusive Dental Podcast as well. So shout out to Dr. Nasser as well. He would always turn up in the nicest cars. And as a youngster, when I used to see that, I was like, hey, do you know what? I want a piece of that action.
So dentistry was kind of always there. And I’d always taken an interest in sort of with the Asian background of be a doctor or a dentist as you grow up, missing the mark in my A levels. After going through account management for a few years, I kind of realized I was contracting quite a lot.
So I was in for six months, out for three months, in for six months, out for three months, and it became a bit stagnant.
[Jaz]
And when you were out for three months, there was no income. Is that how it worked?
[Nav]
Essentially. Yeah. I mean, the six months that were paying on contracted work was decent. Don’t get me wrong, but it was never enough to make you feel as though you were comfortable. You didn’t have anything that you need to a pension long term. It does kind of weigh you thin a bit. And then it was my mum, my saving grace, who turned around and said, look, why don’t you look into pursuing medicine or dentistry?
Cause you wanted to do it when you were younger anyway. So I did what anybody else does in the world and jumped online, looked at anywhere that would take somebody like myself to study dentistry. And I found unfortunately an agency, which many other people would probably say the same thing that essentially sold us a dream and said, come along to Ukraine, of all places, the fees aren’t too bad, very affordable, and do it in five years.
Not only that, but if you have a certain degree, we can even skip a couple of years, put you into like the second or third year.
[Jaz]
Now this agency, was it targeting British nationals who wanted dentistry? Like what was the angle?
[Nav]
Pretty much, pretty much. I mean, the company itself is registered in the UK itself. So the key demographic are the guys that didn’t quite make it into medicine dentistry. And obviously, as you know, now, with the UCAT and then the competition, the limited places in medicine and dentistry, UK students are dying to get into medicine dentistry. So they are very desperate to do that.
And I feel they do prey on that. I wouldn’t really say they use that as a target audience. They kind of see it as that’s their food really. So it’s sad.
[Jaz]
And what year was this Nav? Because obviously with what’s happening with Ukraine, Russia, I mean, what year was that? And also you must’ve considered like Valencia and what’s your Debrecen is another one in Hungary, right?
[Nav]
Yeah.
[Jaz]
That’s a quite popular one. So why did you choose Ukraine again? What year was it?
[Nav]
Okay. So this was 2018. And the reason why it was very simple with the places like Spain, Hungary, et cetera, you’re not going to get anything for less than 14 grand up. Right. I know, for example, annually, that’s correct.
Yeah. So tuition fees are high in the other UK. And then obviously if you don’t have a student loan paying for that, you really do have to depend on either your own savings or maybe the bank of mom and dad, which unfortunately I don’t have access to at such great lengths. So they were happy to help me.
But, the only thing that was accommodating of that was Ukraine. And that’s the reason why I, and so many other people ended up in Ukraine because their fees were around, I think, three grand a year. So really and truly it should have been alarm bells for me at that point. You know, it’s a five year course.
You can skip a couple of years if you want. It’s only three grand a year. I should have started thinking, hey, something dodgy going on. But I think when you’re like-
[Jaz]
How does the company get money from this? So, as an introducer, that company who connected you to this pathway into Ukraine. I’m just fascinated. What’s their business model? How did they get money from this?
[Nav]
I’ll be honest with you. I think from what I’ve kind of uncovered, I don’t want to say too much and then put too many people under the bus here. But I’m pretty sure they’re in cahoots with the university because it’s a private uni.
So probably is a case of they just set the uni up themselves, signed a couple of things off with some people on the inside with the government and essentially being able to run an educational institute that quote unquote teaches dentistry and medicine. So I think the bulk of that tuition fee goes to the agency and then a bit of it goes off to paying the staff. Listen, I’m just spit balling here by feel as though that’s probably how he’s the way it was run. So that’s how it went.
[Jaz]
Okay. So how did it go in Ukraine from 2018 to what year? Like 2020?
[Nav]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2020. So it was a bit of a weird one. I mean, I kind of went in there knowing what dentistry kind of should be, again, lucky to have exposure with my brother in law. So when I went in there and realized that we were studying very weird subjects, sometimes in university, which was a high school, essentially, that was shared with high schoolers. Well, we just took some of the private classrooms. Then also I’d ask questions like, when are we going to start working on phantom heads?
When are we going to the simulator rooms, et cetera. And because I’d never got any answers for that. And it was kind of like, oh, next year or next semester. I kept on digging. I’m quite tenacious when it comes to that. I quickly realized this isn’t a real university, so to speak. So how it went-
[Jaz]
Oh my goodness.
[Nav]
Yeah. How it went in Ukraine was terrible. Best way to describe it. We were doing online classes before Covid, for example, which was like a thing for them. And then when, obviously when Covid hit, everybody just went home and it was just a shambles really. I kind of stayed there in-
[Jaz]
Weren’t there any students in your senior years, like you were in your first year of that dental school, quote unquote, wasn’t there any fourth years, fifth years to see the clinic? Weren’t there any clinics?
[Nav]
This is the thing. I genuinely feel, and again, not like going to name anyone here. I genuinely feel.
[Jaz]
You haven’t named any company.
[Nav]
Yeah, I mean, I can name the company. I don’t mind doing that. But the people per se in the fifth year. I feel as though one, the cohort wasn’t very big. I think our cohort was probably the biggest one. So we kind of entered in that year. The guys beforehand, I feel as though we’re almost sworn to secrecy about the whole thing. It was kind of like, if we stay quiet. We ended up getting a degree and then we can just leave with it. And then, either take the ORE or start with medicine.
And here’s the kicker. If you now Google through the GMC’s website, so the general medical council. And if you look at this university, which was Dnipro medical institute, it’s now actually officially blacklisted. So that’s how bad that uni is. So these people, I feel as though they got out at the right time and they stayed quiet because they didn’t want to bring too much to it. But that’s how bad it was. So nobody in the fifth year was going to tell us that this is dodgy. Something wrong is going on here because it’s self preservation.
[Jaz]
So close to getting their degree and just finding some sort of work for themselves. But wow, how scary is this for the world of medicine, dentistry and patient care and all the ethical things that we think of?
[Nav]
Exactly. Exactly. It’s really shouldn’t be sold in the way that they were selling it. And to be honest with you, that’s the quickest piece of advice I can give anybody who is even trying to start on that journey. Don’t do what I did. Don’t just take someone’s word for it, but go out to the country. It might be a bit of a headache, but it’s worth it. It really is because I didn’t do that and I regret it really.
[Jaz]
I think this will help someone like loads of people, as you know, want to do dentistry, as you said, and then they’re kind of looking at their options. And then so just if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is like with everything in life.
But you know, in your position, I totally feel for you, man. Like, you wanted to save some bucks, which I totally understand. I totally understand because of the position you were in and what a disappointment that ended up being. And then COVID came. So what then happened, what was Egypt the next step and how did that happen?
[Nav]
So this is the thing. I mean, I feel as though, thank God, God’s always watching. And I feel as though I really was put on a path. So there was myself, one other guy out of our entire year group. And in fact, in our entire university, that kind of was taking dentistry a little bit seriously. So we ended up getting a private tutor who’s from Syria.
So Dr. Khaled was a big mentor of mine. And we would essentially we pay out of our own pocket to get work with him. He was the only guy that had a simulator-esque lab within his own clinic. And he was teaching us-
[Jaz]
In Syria?
[Nav]
Uh, he’s from Syria. No, he had it in Ukraine. So he’d moved over to Ukraine and he was kind of like teaching there. And I think it was a lab tech slash dentist at the same time. So it’s Ukraine, anything goes. So he kind of became quite close. We became good friends, I’d say. And then I sort of said to him, look, this is the situation. I’m worried. I then understood, by the way, you have to also realize something in my naivety, completely.
Didn’t have a clue about the ORE. So all I saw was just, okay, dentistry. Finish and become a dentist. That was it. As you stay in places like Ukraine, you start realizing, okay, I actually have to do an ORE. Okay. The ORE is not actually that easy. So I need my education to be good. So these are the reasons why I was trying to find answers.
So anyway, Dr. Khaled was the guy that turned around to me and said, look, if you’re really looking to take it serious. There’s only two countries in the world I recommend that you go to. And one was Egypt and the other one was Lebanon. So of all places, I was thinking, right, well, yeah, I’m not going to do Lebanon. They’re just with all the situation that’s going on over there. Research-
[Jaz]
Lebanese food culture and-
[Nav]
And allegedly the women, but I can’t say much about that. So, but yeah, no, I was told that Egypt was the place to go. So I researched heavily into that. And the issue that then becomes quite a bit of a trend later on with Egypt. They’re terrible with emails. They’re terrible with phone calls. So I had very limited information and then kind of got to a point where I was like, right, I need to just go out there and see it for myself. So we skipped down to, I think the end of 2019 out of my entire cohort and everyone from year one to year five at the time, bear in mind, I think I was going to be at three then.
I was basically the heretic of university going around telling everyone like we’ve got to leave and we’ve got to find somewhere else. I had the agents threatening me, we’ll give you your money back, leave. We’ll give you a transcript, but get out of it. We don’t want you here because basically you’re bad for business.
There were only two other people that turned around and said, we’re going to join your journey, your crazy journey. And they actually ended up coming with me to Egypt to check it all out. Looked great.
[Jaz]
You were like some sort of Messiah. Like you were the enlightened one, right? And they’re like, this guy’s onto something. And then all these naysayers are there like, Oh, well, who is this crazy guy? And were you all right?
[Nav]
Yeah. And the thing is? I’m quite an arrogant individual. So even now I kind of low key sit there and go, told you so. Like, I’m not sitting there like, yeah, I hope the best for [inaudible], I actually am like, cause we went through so much.
I have to tell you Jaz, it wasn’t fun. It wasn’t easy. There was a lot of traveling. There was a lot of expenses. When I went out there and found the uni was great. When we came back, it was a nightmare getting our documents, getting them signed, notarized, etc. Like, it was almost impossible.
We eventually got to Egypt. I had to take two cats over with me as well. I had all my suitcases. The journey itself was crazy. We didn’t know about the COVID travel situation. So we ended up having to sleep at the airport.
[Jaz]
Was COVID a legit thing yet? Like-
[Nav]
Yeah.
[Jaz]
There was no lockdowns and that right at this point.
[Nav]
It was the end of 2020, right? So COVID had really taken its toll, but because I’d not traveled yet, I didn’t know what to expect. I was basically just stuck in Ukraine. I hadn’t gone home for two and a half years bearing in mind. Right.
[Jaz]
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So all throughout lockdown, you were in Ukraine?
[Nav]
Yeah. And prior to this-
[Jaz]
Everything was locked down. You weren’t even learning because uni was shut.
[Nav]
Pretty much. I mean, they had online classes, I said, but it was a joke. And just a little kicker as all for you. My parents sent me to Ukraine with this secret, it was kind of like a, look, mate, you’re in your thirties, if your balls this up, we can’t like, take the flat for it.
So go there for a couple of years and make sure you’re good enough to become a dentist. Then we’ll tell the family. So for two and a half years, I hadn’t seen my siblings. And like there were all sorts of rumors. Like, is he dead? Is he married off to someone and not told the family?
Is he in prison? Is he this? Is he that? And I had to just keep it quiet with everyone. So it was just really awkward getting-
[Jaz]
With the respect. It’s getting hilarious.
[Nav]
The story is wild. I’m telling you, like, I’m giving you the top line of it, but it was insanity in his finest, and I couldn’t really communicate with anyone, but my parents in the UK. So I was playing in a football team before I went to Ukraine and I’m AWOL from there. So they were like, where the hell is this guy gone? Obviously I was working before that. Where’s he gone? Friends, all the rest of it. All of a sudden I’m just nonexistent. So I’m out.
[Jaz]
Why can you tell people that, Hey, you know what? I’m just going to take like a kind of sabbatical and do like this educational journey. What was that like a taboo thing? Or was it like you want to come back and surprise them? Like, hey, look at me. Sonic three has come kind of thing.
[Nav]
I guess that would have been really nice, but the honest, honest truth was just, I think my parents fear factor and mine as well, collectively. I think what we didn’t want to do because obviously dentistry is a completely different beast. What I didn’t want to do is kind of go there, spend a year or two and tell the whole world, yeah, I’m doing this.
And then God forbid fail and come back. And with all due respect, in the way that our culture is set up, unfortunately, it can be quite judgy. The last thing that you want is kind of like, 30 years and then, you got nowhere with it. As I said-
[Jaz]
What were you thinking? Whatever that kind of stuff, that kind of mentality, bad duas and stuff. And Nazar and all that kind of stuff, evil eye, that kind of stuff. For those who know, who know.
[Nav]Exactly that. Not even going to try to like sugarcoat it, but that’s basically what it was. So, I mean, if anything, it kind of forged me into the resilient person I am today. And I thank my parents for that. Thank God for that as well. But, again, we were taking it to the end of 2020. I remember we got to Kyiv airport to leave, to go to Egypt for our first trek there to see what it was like. And we got to the front of the queue and they were like, right, where’s your COVID papers?
And we were like, I can still remember, and my friend would vouch for this. I kind of tried to be the big man. And I was like we’re from the UK. We have a British passport. Surely we’re fine. And they were like, it doesn’t work like that, mate. Like get in line. We can reschedule your flight for tomorrow.
You need a 24 hour COVID test. So. We had to sleep in the airport that night, get a COVID test, go the next day, missed our hotel, had to rebook, crazy, crazy, crazy stuff. But we saw what Egypt for what it was.
[Jaz]
But at this point you’d agreed with the Egyptian university that you’re going to enroll and it’s going to happen kind of thing.
[Nav]
No. This is what I meant earlier. They’re terrible with emails. So communication, they’re rubbish.
[Jaz]
So you legit thought, okay, Ukraine’s not working. You need to take massive action. I love people who take massive action and you decided, okay, me and the only two guys who believe me, I’m going to go.
Everything’s on you now because these guys are like, okay, I’m just following Nav, right? So you’re there with the two cats and two suitcases, whatever, and with two guys. Everything’s in twos, like Noah’s ark, except everything like in cats and suitcases and stuff, right? And you’re trying to get to Egypt and be like, hey, just knock on the door. Be like, hey, I’m getting a couple of dental students here, like, was that the plan?
[Nav]
Essentially, I think we were so desperate. When you get this desperate, you just end up doing crazy stuff. So I remember we went there. They’ve got like a foreign students office. We met with the president of the office and she was like, yeah, you guys, no problem.
Just bring these documents. We’ll get you in. So we were like super happy. We ended up kind of going back. As I said, it was a headache getting our documents. We eventually got everything and then we flew out and then we went there. That’s when he just turned to rubbish. So I think we got there in. I want to say around January.
No, it was new year. Sorry. It was new years, 2021, we landed like a week later at the office and unfortunately there was a new person who was the president of the office. So our luck just started going the other way and they were like, no, we can’t get you in and this problem and this problem. And eventually it was, I think, I want to say March or April that they took us in and they said, unfortunately, you have to sit one of the first year subjects again.
And then from September, you’ll be in the second year. So you’ve got to bear in mind, we’re essentially third year students going back into first year and doing it all over. So that’s kind of the Egypt leg of things. And there’s a lot more, but I’m not going to go into it, but we started doing, doing that in Egypt and in all fairness to Egypt, I think it was out of the three, because obviously I’m here in Slovakia, it was probably the best in terms of education and their hands on approach and working with patients and exposure, but in terms of having their stuff together and making it easy for students.
I would say for any international student, unless you know, Arabic, stay clear of it. And unless you’re comfortable with the culture, stay clear of it as well. But, we were out there for a couple of years. We ended up in the third year there as well.
[Jaz]
And then you actually went through, I mean, this is wow. So you do three years in Ukraine, you figure it out and then you go to Egypt on the whim, just hoping, and then you do first year again and then you do second year and then you enter third year in Egypt.
[Nav]
Yes. And the reason behind this, is it was a bit-, Brexit was going on around that time before we went from Ukraine to Egypt. And there was a lot of whispers in the wind that they’re going to get rid of the EU recognition of degrees. So people would have to do the ORE regardless where they went. So that’s why we ended up with Egypt because we said, well, if we have to do it anyway, we might as well go somewhere. We’re going to get the best education.
Probably our fault because we didn’t really read between the lines. It was more whispers, but it wasn’t anything official. And obviously then we found out that extended it for another five years and EU recognition was still on the table. So that’s why when we were in the third year, we thought, right, we can do fourth year, fifth year, sixth year in Egypt still. Cause you need to do six years there.
[Jaz]
So it’s a six year course in Egypt.
[Nav]
Yeah, it’s officially a five, but you have to do your sixth as an internship, which is just basically working with patients all day, just to receive the degree. So that was the thing in our head. We were like, we can do the extra three years in Egypt.
Sorry, between two and three years for the ORE on average. So it’s anything between five or six years to work completely UK. And there’s a risk of failing. And then there’s the fees and the GDC, and then you’re not working with any patients in that time. So there was lot of advantages and disadvantages of it, or we can skip town, start again with the EU. That’s why we’re now here in Slovakia.
[Jaz]
Was this your idea again, Nav?
[Nav]
Unfortunately, yeah. So they probably hate me for this. All right.
[Jaz]
Because those two guys followed, yeah?
[Nav]
Yeah. Again, I think the group’s growing, to be honest with you. So people are like slowly, slowly coming along. But I think now we’ve kind of figured it out. We’re here now. And unfortunately, although we should have been going into the fourth year, we started getting the third year. So I feel like we’re like the Kings of the third year. So we’re in the third year now.
[Jaz]
So now you went to Slovakia, but this time you are allowed to enter the third year?
[Nav]
Yes. Yes. So, and that was our push.
[Jaz]
There’s a good part of this. Okay. Fine.
[Nav]
Yeah. So I mean, it would be nice to go into the fourth year, but it is what it is. I mean, we’re in the third year now and that kind of brings us to where we are. And, currently sitting in Kosice.
So Slovakia is second city. And, we’re into our second semester of third year. And yeah, we’re still alive. So, that’s the journey.
[Jaz]
Well, shout out to Slovakia. Slovakia is the ninth biggest cohort of Protruserati. Would you believe it? I work at one stage, it’s probably slipped down to like 12th or something, but like it was up there. Like you wouldn’t think like Slovakia, I would have put it, 20 something, 30 something, but these are Slovakians keep coming back to Protrusive, which is awesome. So great to have you on.
[Nav]
Yeah. I’m going to try to get more of those guys from my uni onto the channel as well. So for sure, man. We need that family to grow. So, yeah, Slovakia.
[Jaz]
Thanks for coming on the show, genuinely, but there’s still so much I want to know. So we know about why dentistry. We know about a little bit about your journey so far, how you ended up from Ukraine to Egypt to Slovakia and Slovakia is a five year course?
[Nav]
Six years here. Here it’s a dental medicine course, so it’s an MDDr I believe is the title of the degree itself.
[Jaz]
So you basically got three and a half years left?
[Nav]
Essentially. Yeah. So it’s painful. Okay. It’s painful.
[Jaz]
It’s okay. Look, you live once, right? You live once and you are doing something and the desire and the hunger you have, it’s all about that.
And I can see that, that fire in your belly when you came to visit me at the practice, man, more power to you. How many people just live their life? Just doing the same old thing every day and not feeling like they’re living life on their terms. You, my friend, are living life on your terms. Now, whether you’re right or wrong or whatever, it doesn’t matter.
You’re living it by your terms and you’re not going to have regrets because whatever you do, you’re just going to give it your shot. So I highly admire and I respect that. So don’t feel as though, oh, no, I know you don’t, but I know you’re just saying it to everyone. But some people thinking, oh my God, what a crazy journeys.
That is not for me. But people have to appreciate that. Dentists have to appreciate that. If you manage to get in first time and you’re in a nice European dental school, fine, good for us. Right? And American Dental School, but, but sometimes you have to take an alternative path and that’s what you’re doing. And so, massive respect to you.
[Nav]
Humble. Humble.
[Jaz]
What are the fees like in Slovakia? That’s thing you wanna cover.
[Nav]
Okay, so when we started, they were at 11 and half thousand euros per year. First you can pay that in into installments first. I think it’s 11,000 actually. 11 or 11, 000. So that’s for dentistry for medicine, I think is 10 or nine and a half roughly.
But this year, because of the influx of international students, they’ve actually increased the price. So from this September onwards, it’s going up to 13, 000 euros per year for dentistry. And I believe 12, 000 euros per year for medicine. So I would say it’s just in the fringe of accessible now for UK based students, because it’s close enough to tuition fees in the UK.
But I feel as though uni is getting aware of the amount of students that are coming over. And I think this is going to be a common theme around the EU now, where so many people are traveling out of the UK into the EU to study. Because of the lack of seats, it’s just one of those things that people just going to cotton on to it and realize it can just bump the prices up and up and up.
And then I feel as though people probably need to get into it ASAP rather than delay it. But obviously you don’t want to rush a decision as big as this either.
[Jaz]
And you have to do the course in English, Slovakian, how does that work?
[Nav]
Yeah. So quite fortunate. So Egypt was officially an English taught subject or taught course even, but because of the majority being Arab students, the teachers would naturally just speak Arabic.
Whereas here in Slovakia, there is a year group for Slovak students, the year group for English speaking. So this is completely dedicated to English speaking students. So it’s quite fortunate in that sense. So anybody who is looking to come over and is worried a bit about the language, nothing to worry about there.
However, you do need to learn Slovak as a language over the course of two years. And that’s basically infused into the core of your subjects that you have to ask before you get your degree, but it’s pretty easy.
[Jaz]
I mean, why not? If you’re living in a country for that many years, why not learn the beauty of the language and appreciate the culture? I mean, how many languages do you speak?
[Nav]
So Urdu and Punjabi, they’re interchangeable, but I would say those two roughly, and I speak English, of course. I was getting better at Arabic, my Egyptian friends are probably watching this would probably say, no, I wasn’t, but for sure I was picking things up and play football out there as well.
So I got in with the locals, which was quite helpful. I would say those are kind of the four or three and a half that I can speak. And then obviously now I’m learning Slovak, but I’ll be completely honest with you, it is insanely hard. I think Russian was easier because we were learning Russian when we were in Dnipro in Ukraine.
That was easier than Slovak. Slovak is crazy difficult. So, anybody who is trying to come here, be warned. But as for me, yeah, those are the subjects that I can speak.
[Jaz]
No, good. More power to you. Learn Slovak, my friend. Why not? Well, if not now, then when? So, but based on those, like recently I was in Valencia. I was at the European Alliance Society conference. We’re doing an IPR workshop and I love how they say Valencia. They say Valentia, which is pretty cool. So, I was in Valencia. It was pretty cool. And then I remember that lots of dentists were DMing me saying, Hey, I went to uni here.
Hey, I went to uni here. So lots of people end up going to Valencia or Debrecen. Maybe I’m saying it wrong. Maybe it’s in Hungary. I know you touched on it already, but the fees, are they that much different to the Slovakian fees? And so what I’m trying to get to is before you consider Slovakia, what was the sort of decision matrix that you made to choose Slovakia rather than potentially Valencia, Hungary, some of these, Czech, I don’t know, some of these other places?
[Nav]
Yeah. Yeah. I think most of it is budget wise. So Czech, I think was around 15 K in euros, that is per year. Don’t quote me on these figures. Spain for a fact was, it was either Madrid or Valencia. I can’t remember which one I called. And they said 21 grand a year. Poland was about 15, 14 to 15 grand as well. And then the other thing is as well. My decision was kind of driven by the uni’s accepting transfers as well. So this is like the big filter, if anything, if I was a fresh student going in.
Yeah. I think it’d be a bit more easy for me to kind of find a country that works for me. And then, I’ll just take it from there and start from fresh because of me coming from Egypt. So they’re not on the ECTS system, the European credit transfer or something, whatever it is. I had to go in with their credits, which may not be recognized.
So it was really narrowing down the filter. So I worked with an agency called Europe studies. So they were very helpful as a lady. They’re called Evie. I think she’s based out of Greece and she kind of did all the legwork and said this is the unit that’s really going to work.
Other than that, I can’t guarantee you a transfer anywhere else. And I thought, I’ve done this for years now. The last thing I want to do is have the hope of going somewhere great, like Spain, for example, but then they say, you’ve got to start from the first year, which it would have just killed all of us. So that’s kind of the driving factors. One is the budget and two, just to make sure that they would take the transfer. And that was the reason why we ended up where we are now.
[Jaz]
So two of you went from Ukraine to Egypt. How many of you went from Egypt to Slovakia in your year?
[Nav]
So in total, there was three. So there was three in the first instance. So myself, two others from Ukraine to Egypt, and then they ended up, yeah, being four from Egypt to Slovakia. So now there’s four. So God forbid there’s any more moves, but if there were, it would probably be five and then so on and so forth.
[Jaz]
Wow. Okay. So what is your advice then in terms of, I mean, Ukraine is pretty much, in such a sorry state, God bless it. Obviously it’s not something that you can really consider. They’re probably not even running unis there at the moment with the war and stuff. So that’s not an option anymore. What has your experience of Slovakian dental school been like and how much clinical exposure do you get? And it sounds like, from your instance stuff that you’re fairly happy actually.
[Nav]
Yeah, I would say that I’m overall, I’m very happy with the university in itself. The experience I’m getting is great. It’s again, because they teach dentistry, not essentially as a BDS, but as a Doctor of Dental Medicine.
They’ve really, really incorporated a lot of medical subjects into our degree. For example, I’ve studied neurology, not just neurology with the trigeminal nerve as the main focus point, and that’s it, but more so neurology as a whole, where we’ve been looking at gynecology, for example, which you’d almost argue, you could teach that as part of maybe internal med, but not entirely its own subject.
We’re doing ophthalmology, for example, the list goes on. So there’s a lot of medical related subjects. So for those that are looking to come over, you just got to bear in mind. The first three to four years is you’re almost a medic, if that makes sense, but then kind of into the fourth year, they’d introduce you to the patients.
So as of next year, officially, I’ll be working with patients. And I’ve validated that myself. I’ve gone to classes where fourth years are sitting in there. Working on patients. The classes are a lot more smaller in comparison to maybe Egypt, where there were 20, 25 of us, two professors walking around and then about, a hundred patients waiting outside the door here, it’s a lot more, I would say intimate, it might be you and two others, and then your professor, your teacher working on a patient taking turns and working the way through it again.
I would find it very hard to compare any country thus far with the practical experience that we had in Egypt, but I do believe that what they teach in Slovakia in terms of that hands on practical experience is enough to get you going for your first year as a trainee dentist in the UK, eventually when that time comes.
And also I’ve heard from friends that you can actually sign up with the local dental hospitals that the university has affiliations with and work there in emergency hours. You won’t get paid for it. But you’ll get the exposure to loads of extractions, emergency, temporary fillings, all the rest of it. So, in that sense, there is enough here to provide you with what you need if you seek it.
And I think that’s a common theme as well with universities generally. They don’t spoon feed you everything, but if you ask for it, they usually do help. So this is no exception.
[Jaz]
So when you finished the sixth year in Slovakia, your plan is to come back to UK?
[Nav]
Finally, finally. Yes. That is the plan.
[Jaz]
I mean, I hope you get to taste that moment that day. And then does that involve an ORE for us, for us lacking trained?
[Nav]
Yeah. Thank God. It’s one of the exceptions. So on the GDC website, there’s an annex. So there’s a PDF that you can download. I pretty much know back to front now. I’ve seen this so many times where it gives you the list of exceptions or the list of universities and their degree titles from the EU that are exempt from doing the RE and this would be one of those that may change the subject to change.
I highly doubt it. I think the way that dentistry is in the UK and the NHS crisis and just generally me personally, I would say, I don’t think that it would change. I’ve kind of spoken to the likes of Eddie Crouch on Twitter, for example, we’ve had like informal to and fros. I think he is of the same thinking as all that.
Although they can talk about it, whether they’ll get rid of that exemption list, it was highly unlikely. So yeah, fortunately for us, we’d be able to come back and skip the ORA and just get straight into what is now the PLVE, I believe the name of it, which is our, vocational training equivalents.
Hopefully between six and 12 months and then from there, shoo up and be the next occlusal hype man out there in the world. So let’s see how it goes.
[Jaz]
Why not? So last couple of questions, actually, it’s obviously expensive. Everything you’re doing and you have some savings, et cetera. Maybe you’ve burned through, maybe you’re not, let’s not get into that. But are you working part time to fund your dentistry?
[Nav]
Okay. So I had a part time job, which was sort of online calls like surveys. So I could do that from where I am on the laptop. It was very mundane and it was very time consuming. And I found that I kind of spoke to my parents about it. And they said, look, just live like a hermit. Stay at home and basically eat at home, which is good. You learn how to cook, to be a bit more savvy with your money as well. And they said, look, we’ll fund you a little bit extra per week to get you by.
Oh, I’ll be honest with my budget. It’s about 50 quid a week. So, you can live off of that. This is not including rent that I can tell you sort of the rent that I’m paying at the moment is about sort of 300, 250 quid, 250 euros, roughly per month. Taking the bills into account and stuff. So anybody who’s looking to do this kind of journey, that’s the kind of budget you need and you can live off quite comfortably about 50 pound a week.
If you know how to cook, can you do part time work? Yes. Could you do it locally? If you know the language, otherwise just find maybe something that you can do on a laptop or remotely, so long as it’s not eating into your education. And I think that’s my parents biggest worry was, we don’t want you to be distracted so much, just trying to earn a living.
We’d rather take the sacrifice and that, you succeed here and then later on, you can just pay it back. So that’s kind of the agreement we’ve had, but anybody who is looking to do it, the options are there.
[Jaz]
Very nice. And I wish you all the best for that. Now, one thing we’re all dying to know is which is the best night out. Slovakia, easy up to Ukraine.
[Nav]
Here’s the thing, right? So I’m not like an outdoors kind of guy. You could ask anyone that knows me. The most exciting thing that I would do is I maybe hit a burger joint or like a pizza restaurant or something along those lines. So I hate being out too late, I’m basically an old man even when I was young I used to hate it as well. But from what I’m hearing Egypt, for example is a very because it’s culturally different men stick with men, women stick with women. There’s curfews, people don’t go out too late. It’s like cafes, like small cafes.
[Jaz]
Yeah. I can imagine a good night out in Egypt is like being in a cafe, doing shisha and some dates and just watching the sunrise in the early morning. That’s what I think people do there. They drink their green tea or whatever.
[Nav]
Pretty much, pretty much is. That’s pretty much how it is. And they love their football. So that that’s kind of their culture. Ukraine, I would say that the students that were there used to speak quite highly of it. But again, it was the cities that we went to, or bear in mind is all like Dnipro is not Kyiv because [inaudible] is not Bratislava, for example.
So we’re kind of like away from all the fun stuff, but I guess it really, really comes down to your cohort. So if you are alongside other people that you can get along with. So internationally, and they speak English for English speaking. You probably have a good time here as well.
I know a lot of people go out to the local town center here and have crazy nights out and they say it’s very safe. So if you ask the guys and the girls, they’ll all say it’s very safe here. I’ve had people say that they feel safer here than the UK. So, which I don’t think is very hard nowadays anyway.
So I’d say in terms of the night out, I think Slovakia at the moment probably takes it. Just because of what I’m hearing from everyone, but for me, a good night out is, as I say, pick up a slice of pizza somewhere and just go for a walk. So I’m a bit boring.
[Jaz]
Let’s answer this one. In terms of food, where was the best?
[Nav]
Egypt. Have you not seen that? Oh man, you got to see this. I’ve done a video of this, right? And there’s a picture of me in Ukraine and I’m like in shape. I look great. And then there’s a bit of cutaway to me in Egypt. And I don’t know. I think I put on something around 15 kg in that time in Egypt. The food’s insanely good. The problem is everything’s cheap as well and accessible. So food wise, Egypt’s nice.
[Jaz]
All that shawarma and everything.
[Nav]
Yeah, for sure. I was like getting in there with all the like restaurant owners as well. So everything was discounted. So the place called Chickenworks out there with Farooq, he’s giving me 20 percent off. I love that guy, but if I have any heart related issues, it’s his fault. So I’m just saying that now.
[Jaz]
Amazing. Well, now you’ve answered these big questions I had for you. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for being, make yourself vulnerable to share your journey. Thanks for inspiring so many people. Thanks for just telling us the truth. And one of the reasons I was happy to connect with you is I’ve watched so many videos, your real talk. I love it. I feel like you’re at this point now you’ve been through so much. So you know what? You’re just going to enjoy it. You’re going to speak your heart.
You’re going to get out this the other side and you’re going to be, okay, I gave it my best shot. So what are the final words or reflections that you have for the Protruserati listening and watching who thoroughly enjoyed, I’m sure, learning about your very fascinating journey. And we all wish you the very best in getting your dental degree.
[Nav]
I just say to everyone that is listening, first and foremost, just that was very lovely of you. I mean, that’s, I’m going to keep that, save that. I’ll probably play it over whenever I’m feeling down. So thanks very much. I would say to anyone listening and whoever’s kind of in your family of things, which I relate to massively, I would say it’s just never too late to follow anything you’re doing.
Be a dentistry, be outside of that. If there’s any decisions that you have in life, just don’t let the naysayers dictate as to what decisions you make in life and rather kind of just own it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, but if we don’t try, we never get. And then in all honesty, I think you don’t look at these big people such as yourself, even you’re a massive inspiration to so many people out there.
You could even say you were just, you’re just a dentist. And no one would have ever known you, but then you took that step to go out there and do what you’re doing now. And you know, 17, 18, 000 subscribers on YouTube and so many following you on social media, you took that step. So everyone can do it, and it’s just one of those things that I feel as though don’t let people make you feel as though you shouldn’t be doing it.
Go out there, prove them wrong. And then, and above all else, just have fun doing it. So, fingers crossed to everybody out there. My prayers are with you as well. And let’s all achieve our dreams together. And I hope the Protruserati can do that as a group. So that’s my final message.
[Jaz]
Amazing. You’ve inspired a generation, my friend. Thank you so much.
[Nav]
Humbled, humbled. Thank you for having me on my friend.
Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it guys. I’m not sure how many of you will make it to this part, the ending, but I’ll tell you something funny. I love this guy so much. I offered him a job in Protrusive because I’m always looking to support dental students.
I want dental students to learn from Protrusive so they get to write the premium notes stuff, but I pay them. I pay them very well. And it’s really a win win to find a dedicated dental student and also to enhance the podcast experience as well. So after I hit the stop recording button, I said, now do Protrusive maybe for one or two years, see how you find it.
I think it’d be great for you in terms of helping you out in terms of his situation. So let’s see how this goes. This is early days. Maybe I shouldn’t even be revealing this on the podcast, but I am. I’m happy to be straight with you guys that maybe Nav is going to be helping us out to actually enhance or to maintain the premium notes that we’re used to and the CPD quizzes and helping out to make sure that Protrusive remains at the forefront of your dental journey.
As always, I want to thank the team, Erika for being the producer, and the quality control from Mari, Krissel, Gian, Emma, and maybe even Nav, who knows. Thank you once again for joining, and don’t forget, if you’re not already on Protrusive Guidance, remember it’s a free, it’s our free community, it’s the Protrusive Tribe.
It’s the Protruserati it’s the home of the nicest and geekiest dentists in the world. So head over to protrusive. app, request to join. We are quite strict about who joins, make sure that you are definitely who you say you are. So it takes a little while to get in, but once you’re in, it’s a nice, warm and fuzzy community of dentists learning and sharing and connecting from all over the world.
Thank you so much for listening again to this interference class and I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.
Welcome back to another Interference Cast! Today’s episode is a bit unique—for once Jaz wasn’t the one asking the questions. Instead, he had the pleasure of being interviewed by the a cool dental student, Nav Bhatti.
During the interview, we explore Jaz’ story, origins, and what fuels his passions. It’s a deep dive into who he is and what drives him. Plus, he shared insights into one of his top strengths, according to Tom Rath’s Strengths Finder 2.0: being a learner. Join us as he discusses the importance of focusing on our strengths and the joy of continuous learning and sharing.
https://youtu.be/JyQ3qpZNQLkWatch IC045 on YoutubeNeed to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this episode:
- 6:51 Get to know about Jaz Gulati
- 8:35 Jaz’s Journey in Dentistry
- 11:49 Ensuring Quality in Dentistry vs Income
- 15:33 Highlights and Challenges in Studying Journey
- 18:42 Advice for Dental Students: Balancing Academic and Social Well-being
- 21:18 Journey to the World of TMD
- 26:36 Difference between TMD and TMJ
- 28:13 Q&A: Dentistry and Kids – is it possible?
- 29:12 Why is Dentistry better than Medicine?
We recently took a bold business risk, urging subscribers to cancel with the ‘Old App’ and switch to Protrusive Guidance for a sleeker, more user-friendly experience. The response from the Protruserati has been overwhelmingly positive. It’s our free Community!
We also offer paid plans for educational content and CPD options. Students, stay tuned for exciting updates coming soon! Join us on Protrusive Guidance for the home of the Nicest and Geekiest Dentists in the World!
If you loved this episode, be sure to check out Value Your Skills – How to Stop Underselling Yourself – AJ006
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: Hello, Protruserati, I'm Jaz Gulati and welcome back to an Interference Cast. This one I feel kind of selfish posting this one, but it was interviewed. It's about me today, right? It's my story, my origin, what drives me. But I was interviewed by a very fascinating dental student called Nav.Jaz Introduction:
Nav Bhatti And he’s an up and coming content creator. I liked his style. I liked his realism. Very real world. I always got time for people like that. He’s actually a British citizen studying dentistry history in Slovakia, previously having studied in Egypt and Ukraine.
So he’s got a really interesting story and we didn’t actually get time to unpack it because he came to my practice where I work and he shadowed for a bit and then the plan was to record. But while recording about 25 minutes in, which is why this podcast is as long as is, which is why it’s a kind of shorter episode. My wife calls me and at this stage, it kind of sums up the entire sort of month I’ve had, right?
My family has been plagued by illnesses like my baby, Sihaan 10 months had like back to back viruses and when the kids are not sleeping we’ll get like 2 -3 hours sleep a night and then unfortunately my eldest, almost 5 years old, he was in hospital for 2 nights on IV drips, severe dehydration, projectile vomiting, you name it, the whole shebang and then it finally got to my wife as well. I was the last man standing, I kind of told the universe and this is crazy, I had Gary Vee say this once, he said, I told the universe I’m too busy to fall sick.
Right? And so that’s my theory of why I didn’t fall sick. I just told the universe, no, not today. But anyway, it’s been a really challenging few months and then it kind of got epitomized by what happened while we were recording that my wife called me and she was in bed, she just couldn’t move. And she had a baby and I was like, oh my God, I better rush home. And thankfully I live very close to where I work. And I said, Nav, I’m so sorry. I’ve got to go. And so the reason to share that with you is just to remind you that we’re all going to have bad months. Okay? We’re going have bad months, bad weeks, and it’s part of life.
And one of my mentors, Lincoln Harris, once taught me that when you don’t know someone well enough, that’s when you think their life is perfect. And that really resonated with me. And I guess we always have to be careful, like when you listen to this podcast or any podcast or what you see, especially on Instagram, dangerous, dangerous Instagram, right? Where you look at everyone’s cases and think, wow, they’ve got it all made up. Their life is amazing. Ferrari, Rolex. You just don’t know what’s happening behind closed doors and no one’s got it perfect. You don’t.
I don’t, but we all must do this together. And togetherness has been a big theme this last month because we just launched Protrusive Guidance, which is the new website. It’s protrusive.app. So the old platform, we totally outgrew it. And so I did something very dangerous in business terms, right? So you guys know that your subscriptions are the reason that this podcast is alive and thriving today.
I’ve actually given up a lot of clinical time. I only work three days at a clinic now. So I could focus on the teaching and the podcast and I have a team to make sure that I actually get to see my wife and kids. And so things were going great, except we totally outgrew the old platform. When I realized that, Protruserati, you guys were going on this rubbish forum that we had on the old platform and you guys were like, hi, I’m so -and dentist from India and this is what I like. And I was like, wow, this is beautiful. You guys are connecting. And I didn’t envisage the community part to be a significant part of it.
But I realised you guys actually crave community, which is why our Facebook group is doing well and we’ll trust each other. Protruserati trusts Protruserati. But you know what? Facebook is a**** because there’s too many ads, too many spammers and a lot of you aren’t even on Facebook and you message me saying, Jaz, how can I get involved in the community because I’m not on Facebook? Which is why, Protrusive Guidance is not only taking all the epic content that we had and now it’s got a search engine and it’s just visually beautiful and a lot less buggy. The previous one I found was starting to get buggy on my Android device.
This, Protrusive Guidance is just a whole level above. And so the business risk I took is I asked all of you to cancel your subscriptions. Right? It’s pretty crazy, right? I asked all of you to cancel your subscriptions and I said, those who want to, those who want to, yeah, I’m just enforcing on those who want to come over to a brand new experience, come on over. And so this is a very risky thing to do, but I absolutely believe in the future of Protrusive.
And what we’re trying to build here and our community and I’ve just been blown away. Like your guys’ engagement so far, how happy you guys have been with the platform, a few teething issues like Android, the quizzes aren’t working on Android at the moment but they do work when you go on your chrome browser, on your mobile or the web. So a few teething issues, excuse the pun, but it’s just been great to see so many Protruserati on the Protrusive Guidance on Android, iOS, but the best place to start, the best place to actually take a look at what we have to offer and choose a plan, It’s protrusive.app on your web browser. And then once you have a login, you can use it on any device, including the native apps.
So let’s hear the episode about what drives me. And I guess in a nutshell, I’m all about being a learner. One of my strengths is learner. One of the five strengths I discovered by doing Tom Rath’s Strengths Finder 2.0. I was recommended this book like 12 years ago.
Strengths Finder 2.0. I’ve mentioned the podcast before, but if you haven’t heard it, it’s a really cool quiz that you do and it gives you your top five strengths. And it argues that actually we should be working to our strengths. Weaknesses maybe a little bit, but actually let’s focus more on our strengths. And one of my top five strengths is learning. And on the taxonomy of learning, when do you learn the most? You learn the most when you’re teaching and sharing with others. And that’s what my true passion is. And most of the time I don’t have the answers and I’m desperate for that knowledge, which is why I bring on amazing guests.
Some that are internationally renowned and some who don’t have an international reputation. But you know what? Those episodes are just beautiful in the real world journeys of the Protruserati. So I hope you enjoy this slightly different episode and I hope that you will consider joining us on Protrusive Guidance. It’s actually free. If you want to just enjoy that community magic of the Protruserati, it is absolutely free. So check out protrusive.app. There’s also payment plans for the educational content and CPD for those that want it. And students watch this space because something epic is coming for you.
Main Episode:
Anyway, enjoy and I’ll catch you in the outro.
[Nav]
First and foremost, I’ve been given an amazing opportunity today to speak to the world renowned, I must say. Definitely world renowned.
[Jaz]
That was really awkward to me.
[Nav]
Anyone I speak to, no matter where they’re from, and I have people in America to speak to, they know you.
[Jaz]
They know you. That’s crazy. Yeah, that feels crazy to me.
[Nav]
That is why it’s world renowned for a reason. Obviously I’ve been to Egypt. I’ve been to Ukraine. I’m currently in Slovakia. Everyone knows you and everyone’s a big fan. So as I say, well, renowned for a reason. I’ve got here, podcaster, clinician, as we know, teacher, mentor, and of course, father, the great, the one and only, Dr. Jaz Gulati. Thank you for having me today actually at his clinic.
[Jaz]
So I appreciate it. Now it is nice when people come in shadow, but it’s nice that we get to record. Not often someone comes an idea today and let’s record together. And so it’s good. And I’ll be excited to hear about your journey as well through all these countries actually.
[Nav]
It would not be as exciting as your career today. I’ll say that much, but we will definitely get into it. For me, first thing, as I said, thank you once again for having me in. And I think we want to just kind of start off for anybody who doesn’t know, and they should know. Your background, tell us more because you’re usually the guy asking the questions so today we’re going to flip that around and find out a bit more about yourself.
[Jaz]
Okay, I think the most striking thing when I’d have to start, I think I’d feel compelled to start is where the journey begins, your big why in life. And I think I can take everything back to when I was six years old.
[Nav]
Oh wow.
[Jaz]
Fled to Afghanistan as a refugee, came to the UK at age six, didn’t know a word of English, my father’s still illiterate. I’m just about to get to my and so I’m feeling incredibly grateful now. Yeah, when I look back that I received a British education and I got a chance and I remember those days coming as a six year old to England and this new place and fleeing all the bad stuff I was going with Taliban and being subject to racism seeing some of that being chased by skinheads on motorbikes or like all sorts of things that I’ve seen in that regard.
But I think that’s all made me resilient. We lived in a council flat for up until I was 24. So I went to a dental school and when I went to dental school, I was like, oh my God, I’ve got my own room. I’ve got my own bed. So that was a huge thing to me. And if I was to show you where I live now, it’s like a small little two bedroom. Okay. But for me, it’s a castle.
[Nav]
I’m with you.
[Jaz]
So that’s kind of the beginnings I come from. And I think probably the reason why I focus so much on education is that relationship I had coming very hungry and then trying to do the only thing my parents said, just just work hard at school. They never had any more input on that. And then I just took that on board and I tried to embody that.
[Nav]
OK, perfect. And then to the next question, white industry, I mean, Asian background yourself. Similar in terms of origins. And I think one thing that we could probably agree on culturally, it’s very much driven towards medicine, dentistry, being a lawyer, being an engineer, something along those lines. You just said your parents didn’t give you that kind of pressure. So what made you think actually dentistry, maybe not medicine, for example, what was the key driver there?
[Jaz]
Definitely no parental pressure. Like I remember doing my A levels. And my mom was laying down to like Jaz, what are you doing at the moment? And I was like, I’m just working on this project. And they’re like, what do you do? Are you doing English, math, or science? What do you do? And I’m like, beyond GCSE, like she had no idea what I was doing in school, right? And so that’s the kind of level of input my parents had in that regard. But I’m so grateful that they still made a difficult journey and decision to come to a brand new country and set up the foundations for me. So I’m so grateful. But in that way, I had no pressure. So it’s very much my own choice. If it was up to my dad, I would probably be doing eBay.
But my dad was like at a time where he owned these two corner shops, one corner shop at the time, and I kind of did a bit of work experience there. And I got to see what life was like in that regard. And then he was like, oh, so and so son is doing, you make a lot of money on eBay and that kind of stuff. This was maybe, what was it, like 2005? And that kind of stuff.
[Nav]
Oh, just when it was breaking through.
[Jaz]
Yeah, exactly. And so my dad was like, why don’t you do eBay kind of thing? And it wasn’t on my radar kind of thing. I just wanted to be a dentist because I had this one upper left central incisor.
which was like a dilacerated almost, so sticking out. Very embarrassing, hated it. And then when I had that treated orthodontically, it completely changed me as a person. I completely broke out of my shell. I just wanted to bottle this up and spray it everywhere.
[Nav]
Okay.
[Jaz]
It’s very cliche. I got to say, oh, I had ortho and therefore, but it was my own personal experience. And I thought, okay, this one would do it. In fact, if you’d asked me at dental school, I wanted to be an orthodontist. Okay, when I look through dental school as I want to be restorative, then suddenly a specialist. And now I’m just a general, just a general dentist.
[Nav]
Okay, so you’re clearly not just a general dentist. I’ve just spent some time upstairs with Jaz actually, fortunate enough to shadow. And I’ve seen stuff that I have never seen before. And I’ve shadowed a few dentists in my time. Most of the things-
[Jaz]
If you come on a different day. I would have been seeing little old ladies with low left caries, premolar root caries, but yeah, you just look at the draw.
[Nav]
They came through. I would say one thing that I picked up with most dentists and maybe that’s what most of the public perception for dentistry is, is that they will look for the quickest and easiest fix and try to get you in and out the chair as quickly as possible. What I saw today was a lot of empathy and understanding of the patient and it was very patient focused.
And it was what I felt from my lack of experience, but for want of better words here, you really did focus on the treatment and not just the time involved. It was very much focused on what’s the patient feeling and how can I make sure they have an easy journey through this. And this wasn’t the end of the journey for the patient. Your patient’s coming back, of course, for the rest of the treatment as well. What makes you have that feeling of I need to focus on the patient and not my bank account? Because a lot of dentists, with all due respect, I would say I’m quite money driven myself in all honesty. How are you not tempted into the dark side? What keeps you looking up with patients?
[Jaz]
Good question. And I see that sometimes when you’re there and you’ve adjusted this denture 50 times now, and you’re there calculating your hourly rate, and you think I was already better off working at Tesco, right? Sometimes you have this patient, right? Other times you’re winning, sometimes you’re losing. I think when you stop focusing, whether you’re winning and losing, and you focus on quality, that relationship, the patient,
I was always taught, at that dental school, I had some good mentors and they taught me, if you do a good job, the money will come. If you refine your skills, the money will come. I can definitely vouch for that. I mean, the more I invest in my skills, like what you saw me today, that machine I was using, the T -scan, right?
[Nav]
Amazing, yeah.
[Jaz]
I was doing this T -scan assisted equilibration, so exclusion time reduction on a TMD patient, a purely muscular TMD, a real live wire, as my physio called her basically, crazy referral patterns everywhere.
And so we’re trying to get a, we’re closing her AOB, so Anterior Open Bite with Ortho within the invisalign, and to get a nice occluding scheme on her own teeth. She will go on to have a retainer and occlusive appliance, but what I was doing with her was using this T-scan, and that T -scan cost about 8 ,000 pounds, right? So the training with that, spent 1,000, the kit itself I bought myself. I kind of pitched it to the principal, but I feel the only one using it. So now I’ve got this arrangement, if I use it and I charge for it.
Like a subsidy. I get that basically, right? Just paid for itself. But whether or not I was making money from it wouldn’t be the main thing. It’s about actually getting the outcome. So I told you that what I liked about it is I’m not chasing red and blue marks on teeth. I’m led by data and that me feeling as a safe practitioner that I can adjust this and then medico-legally. I’ve got all those scans to show that. Okay, what was the occlusion like before? What was the occlusion like after you don’t truly get that from a photo. So I invested in it.
Not to get money back at the end of it, but so I can give better care. It’s a bit like an endodontist investing 50 ,000 pounds on a microscope, right? Patient not gonna pay any more for it, but you’re going to get better outcomes.
[Nav]
Correct.
[Jaz]
So I’ve got your question now, mate. You said about the patient.
[Nav]
Yeah, it was about the patient. What keeps you focusing on that and not the money and I think you’ve explained it quite well that at the end of the day, it’s more so you’re investing to ensure that the patient’s happy with the outcome, but also for yourself, you’re not really cutting corners doing it. And it’s a long term investment. And I think, again, when you do speak to not all but a fair few general dentists out there. It is more about just can you reduce chair time and can you just increase input, output, input, output?
[Jaz]
So that’s important as well. I’m not a practice owner, but that’s important to respect your time as an associate. I’ve got a friend, Sunny, DRE composite, he talks a lot about making sure you value hourly rate and how to improve that with composites and that kind of stuff. It’s important. Yeah, but it’s not the only thing, right? You want to go home and sleep at night knowing that you know what?
I did a good job. You want to have fun. To make dentistry fun, day to day, to fall in love with the little details. That’s where the longevity of your career comes from. If you focus on just the money, money’s numbers, numbers never finish. Eventually, if you focus on just the money, there’ll come a time where you are clock watching, you’re not involved. But if you actually dare to visualize the end result of some treatment to really care about the mechanics of what you’re doing to fall in love with a little details, gamifying dentistry if you like. That’s where I think longevity comes from.
[Nav]
Okay, that’s a very good point. I think I need to do that a bit of a game by myself. So I think I need to take that tip on board and try to enjoy the process as it goes along. So my current situation being a student, that’s my process. Let’s wind the clock back a little bit. So we’re which university did you study at?
[Jaz]
Sheffield.
[Nav]
Sheffield right and for the students out there, what would you say were the highlights and the lowlights of your studying process? And not the dentistry now as it stands, but if you can think that far back, let them know.
[Jaz]
Highlights is just, it was a great time, the community of these 80 odd people that you followed through with five years, the social aspect. Partied a lot in first year especially, second year. And towards the end, I got a little bit more level-headed. But it was great.
For me, it was like living out for the first time, getting my own place. It was very special. But then obviously, the dental school aspect of it, it’s like you’re the sponge. You’re the sponge, and you’re there to learn. But it can be a little bit dark as well. I mean, I guess the low light of it, and I’ve spoken about this before, is whereby, and a theme of my life now is when things get difficult.
When you’re stretched as a husband, a father, a dentist, a content creator, when you know all these things are pulling at me and my patients are emailing me this, I’ve got five different inboxes and they’re full, right? And I feel that pressure, right? And stretching you. The thing that often has to give way is health.
[Nav]
Right.
[Jaz]
Whether that’s through sleep or no longer going to the gym, no longer looking after your body or your diet. And so during dental school, I had this like this strange fixation on I want to get 100% in exams. It’s stupid. I look back now and it was just stupid because no one ever hires anyone thinking about what percentage they get in finals. But yeah, it’s all about your emotional intelligence. By the time I was just determined, I did achieve it. I was the first person to get 100% in the final exam in Sheffield. That was one exam basically in finals. But at the cost of my health at that point.
I stopped going to the gym. I was literally just not in a good place. So that’s a dark thing. I wouldn’t recommend it. I want students to have fine balance and I would have done fine without sacrificing my health.
[Nav]
Of course, of course.
Interjection of Erika:
Hi guys, it’s Erika here, the producer of Team Protrusive. I’m just interjecting here with the announcement that we’ve now got this amazing community platform. You can access it from your laptop. It’s called Protrusive Guidance.
There’s also a native Android and Apple app. What we really want to do is to harness the power of the protrusive community and create a platform you can share and grow together. And you know what? It’s way better than Facebook. So if you haven’t already, check it out. Just do bear in mind that we manually approve every single application. So it might be a little bit slow to approve you, but we only want dental professionals on this network to keep it a safe place and so that we can share failures together. Head over to www.protrusive.app to know more.
[Nav]
Because I think that’s the thing that we see nowadays, sorry, excuse me, that dental students are almost falling out of love with the profession itself just simply because of the amount they’re putting into the studying aspect. I see students as well, they’re burning themselves out before they even hit the chair, for example.
So it’s one of those things that hearing it from yourself as well. It’s seeing yourself now is successful where you are. And that’s great. But even you’ve fallen prey to that. So what would be the best way to give advice to these students that are trying to push for the best grades and really killing their social life to just keep a balance so that they still enjoy dentistry at the end of it? Because one thing I kind of see is dentists, they come out into the world and they are just grumpy, they hate everything because they’ve hated dentistry. Now they’ve despised the trade. So by the time they’re out there with their patients is basically, how much money can you bring in?
So I think what you’ve done is you’ve fallen in love with dentistry and therefore you love treating patients and all the rest of it, which is good for everyone. Now, how do we make sure that students that are currently in that university aspect, how do we make sure that they’re not making the same mistakes that you might be? So what would be your advice there?
[Jaz]
I would firstly say it’s a noble thing to want to do well at university. It’s a very noble thing, right? To have to desire that for whatever reason, why make your parents proud, you want to do it for yourself. You just want to master something even if it’s as a dental student, you don’t really master a book, right? You can’t actually master anything except memorizing the words, right? It’s like a memory test in a way. So it’s a noble thing. I wouldn’t discourage trying to aim for the best. But you have to draw the line somewhere to see, okay, what are the sacrifices I’m willing to make? If I ask myself that now, now all those years ago, I wasn’t willing to make my health sacrifice, but I did. And I just need better ground rules to understand what I’m trying to achieve here and for what reason.
And number one thing to remember is your grades at dental school will totally not determine your success in the future. Your emotional intelligence, your charisma, your network, how nice you are to patients, the quality of care that will eventually build on time. But these are things, these are factors that are gonna determine your success, not how much you scored in these exams. I think when we focus so much on books and less on people, we have to remember that dentistry is a people business. And so the more you remember that, and remember that, okay.
You’re better off and you’re finally done dental school to do the bare minimum to get the pass. But then the rest of the year go to toastmasters, which is like public speaking. Put yourself in awkward scenarios. Learn about body language. Learn about the art of communication talking to people getting out there. That’s gonna be far more important in your success in the future. I think.
[Nav]
Okay. That’s actually fantastic advice and I think that’s somewhere where people do slip up that we focus way too much on the educational side of things so take that advice on board for anybody listening, but that’s huge. I think people skills are so underrated and undervalued. But in reality, that’s kind of what takes you on to the next step in your career and with your patients as well. So amazing advice. Thank you very much. Let’s move it along.
So you’re a massive advocate of TMJ as a whole, the temporomandibular joint and TMD disorders of. What pushed you into that other than the story about the orthodontic side of things and obviously your teeth being dodgy from the start and all the rest of it.
You said earlier, what made you really focus on TMDs as a whole thing? And that’s basically made you who you are. That’s your brand, essentially what people know you for. So guide us through that journey. And what made you get there at the end?
[Jaz]
It’s a scary one. I think about it because I often think, am I doing the right thing? Am I on the right path?
[Nav]
Right. Okay. Interesting.
[Jaz]
I had a book to call with someone recently. I can’t see, I can’t reveal who, but this is like someone who’s really up there in the world of TMD academically, especially, but clinically as well, but very academically. And I arranged a meeting with him just to talk about, okay, if I’m committing to this, what do I need to watch out for? Because when you start treating patients with chronic pain, things can become very tricky for you as a person, the communication required from you, how you deal with people’s emotions. Managing expectations.
And so, famously on some videos that I did like two or three years ago, an episode was called, I think it episode 39 or 40, it was like, Stay Away From TMD. And I said, are you sure you want a cue of pain to the patients outside your door? Because I kind of miss doing more standard dentistry. I love doing crowns. I love doing tooth wear and stuff.
But I’m seeing more and more TMD. It’s a double-edged sword because I love helping people with pain. I love getting a diagnosis, getting into all the detective work, getting the right diagnosis and explaining that to a patient and figuring out, okay, what are the different ways to go? And with that, I do still find the more deep I go into TMD and I’ve learned from several different courses and people. But I still find that it’s the Wild West when it comes to TMD.
But I mean, you can do all sorts. So my philosophy at the moment, 2024 is my philosophy right now, might change five years later. My philosophy right now is get a diagnosis, figure out, okay, what are the range of treatment options we could do? And if it aligns with the patient values, do the most conservative first. Try and do the most reversible. Some people say, oh, splints are not a cure and then that kind of stuff. And I understand that. And I see where that comes from.
But I believe in symptom modification, i.e. if I can modify your symptoms, like I told you about that email I got from the patient, right? He’s got a KOIS deprogrammer, and we don’t want to go into that basically, but he’s feeling, he’s had pain for 11 years, and he just emailed me saying that, wow, this is amazing, right? So to have that impact is absolutely brilliant, but by modifying his symptoms, now I feel okay to recommend to him to have orthotics to improve his overjet.
Now I feel okay about that. I feel like, with chronic pain, anything that’s been longer than three months, what the evidence suggests, which isn’t amazing evidence, but the evidence suggests is actually the more hands off, the better. I don’t fully believe that, but I have to respect it because that’s the evidence. So in a roundabout way, what I’m trying to say is I’m sometimes worried about am I in the right space because it is a challenge. I do find it challenging. I’m not going to lie. I sit down, I do a TMD report and it takes me a lot of time because I really want to proceed carefully.
It’s not like, caries removal, like it’s very definitive, you restore it, tooth extraction, restore it. With TMD as a whole, patience, emotion side of things. That’s what I found the toughest, right? Because they kind of, they want me and they want me for life and they email me and stuff and I’ve got to be there, I’ve got to be their advocate. So when I spoke to this guy about the top dog in TMD and I spoke to him, he told me, do you have a contract with patients? I’m like, no, I don’t. So I’m gonna continue some mentoring sessions with him, because he’s got 20, 30 years on me.
And so I appreciate that you see me as this up and coming TMD, but I’m very, very careful. I don’t know if you’ve seen on social media, especially on my personal Instagram, I very rarely would advertise to patients that if you’ve got clicky joints, come and see me. If you’ve got-
[Nav]
True, true.
[Jaz]
I talk more about family now and cosmetic stuff. I’m already swamped with TMD patients. Already swamped. And it’s more than I can handle. And it takes a lot of personal strain to manage these pain patients. So whilst it’s very rewarding and it’s like a thinkers game. Professor Okeson in Kentucky, he says that TMD is a thinkers game. I like that. But I’m constantly like, hmm, is this the best thing for me in my future? And I’m committed to it. I want to help my patients in pain. But I am perhaps from an outsider looking in. They say that Jaz, he’s a bit too conservative. He’s a bit too cautious and that’s me right now.
Okay, and I’m happy here, right? I might change in five years, as either new evidence comes to light or my own personal experience change. Yeah, but I’m very careful about over-promising and under delivering when it comes to pain patients.
[Nav]
I’m with you. That’s the perfect response. I think for anybody I know there’s a lot of people that are full-on dentists They know this stuff inside out but anybody who’s coming through via my route is probably a student and won’t know much about TMD. So would you be happy to do like a 60 second or a bite size crash course on TMDs? What they are and the importance of treating them in comparison to just typical dentistry to see it. Okay, so that anybody who wants to know what the hell we’re talking about, we’re just throwing TMD, TMJ at each other. It will give them a bit more insight.
[Jaz]
TMJ is two of them. It’s a joint. It’s anatomy. Don’t confuse TMJ with TMD. TMD is a disorder. TMJ is anatomy. TMD isn’t even a diagnosis. There’s many different types of TMD, okay? So you have purely muscular TMD, right? Because the stomatoma system is full of teeth, muscles, and joints. Even the joint has got a capsule. It’s got so many parts of anatomy that you should learn first. So if you want to not embarrass yourself in the future when your patient comes in with that TMD emergency, first thing, and serve your patient, number one thing is learn anatomy of the TMJ and the muscles. If you can learn anatomy of the TMJ and the muscles, you’re pretty much halfway there.
Combine that with a history and then you can get a diagnosis. And then how do you know the range of diagnoses? If you look at the international classification of TMJ disorders, they’re all there. So if you know the anatomy, you’ve got the history and you look at the different diagnoses there are, you can actually begin to start making diagnoses. Only when you start making a diagnosis can you think about helping a patient.
[Nav]
Right, right, right.
[Jaz]
And so that’s my six second crash course.
[Nav]
That was crazy. And then you’ll end up in this crazy wild west as you call it, where Jaz is sitting at the moment. And good luck to you if you follow that route as well. So, that’s awesome. Thank you so much. I had questions from people online actually, specifically for you because we did a little Q & A thing. The first thing actually ties in with family. So we had a message from a girl who said, I’m considering doing dentistry, but I want to have kids in the near future. Does it work?
[Jaz]
100%. Okay, like mother mothers who want to say work part time and stuff. in the right place, right environment, you can be supported, you can, the world’s your oyster, but to have kids and be a part-time dentist in that phase of your life works really well, I think.
Especially if you happen to be a practice owner or something, then you can manage your own hours. If you want to work 10 till two, you could. I know it’s a bit of a unicorn in some ways, but what I’m trying to say is you can totally fit dentistry around your children’s life. And it’s something that pays more than most professions. So even if you’re working part time during that phase of your life, you can still be doing financially well to support your family. I think overall it’s a great profession and so and then that includes being a parent.
[Nav]
Okay, perfect. Let’s give you two more quick ones and then we’ll wrap it all up. Why is dentistry better than medicine? This is actually a question I got through. So in your words, you can’t say it the other way around. Now you have to stick with the statement.
[Jaz]
Okay, why is dentistry okay? Okay, because I get to look down someone’s mouth rather than look up someone’s ass. Did you know this one already?
[Nav]
I always advocate for this, always say I’d rather my fingers going one way than the other way. So this is think alike, okay, perfect. And the last one I’ve got is from somebody who’s actually had a really bad experience. He said, I feel like the dentist I went to is like a mechanic. He went in there and just found problems, right? And maybe this is public perception as well. One, how do I find the right dentist that I can trust? And two, how do I know they’re not just fobbing me off and finding problems that they’re going to make me pay for? What would be advice for most patients out there?
[Jaz]
It’s a real tough one. I see on YouTube, even though the podcast is for dentists, I get loads of patients commenting. And my stock answer is look, I’m not here to give advice on YouTube. It’s not what I’m here for. I’m here to serve my dentists and raise a game of education. But now and again, I’ll give some looks to do this, do that. And the number one advice I give is they’re doubting their dentist. Just have a conversation with your own dentist.
And it’s totally fine to get a second opinion. But if you’re getting a third, fourth, and fifth opinion, then maybe something’s wrong with you, not with the dentist. So second opinion, cool. Maybe a third opinion if it’s really complex. But it’s totally cool to get a second opinion. It’s totally cool to question what your dentist is doing. But ultimately, you’ve got to trust in your dentist. You always have to put the trust in.
Now if you find that you can’t trust that dentist, then that’s where the second opinion comes in handy. Eventually you’ll find someone who communicates in a way who you can resonate with, who then you can trust. And once you trust them, then it’s very difficult in dentistry because most issues are painless. And that’s why the patient trusts issues there because most issues are completely painless. Caries, unless it’s to the pulp, it’s often painless. And so I totally understand why patients are skeptical, but they have to at some point find latch on to that individual that they’re not buying the dentistry, they’re buying that.
Yeah, they’re buying you that okay, I like this guy. I like everything about him I trust this guy and the way he explains things I would like him to to do it if it’s aligned with my values and budget and if my values and goal is I don’t want to have pain anymore I want to keep on my teeth and great, but if you’re suggesting something that’s not in line my goal, then of course that’s different.
[Nav]
Perfect and that obviously goes back to the point that you made earlier about it’s all about interpersonal skills as always very.
[Jaz]
Always, always. You can have the best crown margin in the world. The patient’s not going to know. But you’ve got the worst paralysis in the world, but you’re so sweet to your patient. I’m not advocating that. I’m not advocating this, but the value of communication and just being nice to patients. It’s a really great one, actually. Three things. It’s not mine. It’s a dentist called Amin Aminian. You came up with it, read it in a book. Three things. If you could do two of these three things well, you probably won’t get sued. You probably won’t get in trouble. Three things. Doing the correct treatment plan. Doing it well and being nice to your patient.
So you might have done the wrong treatment. It really needed ortho, but you did veneers. Wrong. But you did really good veneers and you’re really nice, you’re going to be okay. If you did the correct plan, you did it really well, but you’re rude to your patient. Well, you’re technically excellent. You’re probably going to be okay. You see what I mean? But that’s an easy one to get at the end.
[Nav]
I’m with you. I’m with you. Keep those in your mind. That’s perfect. Honestly, I can’t ask for anything more from you. I think this has been an amazing insight.
[Jaz]
I’m sorry. I have to be cut short.
[Nav]
No, no, we’ll definitely reconvene over the summer. I’m sure we’ll find that.
[Jaz]
We’ll continue on the usual route online. Right. We’ll just get it from there.
[Nav]
No problem. And like I say, it’s been a pleasure. Thank you so much. I’m sure everyone’s going to enjoy this one. And I hope to see you again soon. My friend. Thank you.
[Jaz]
Thanks so much.
Well there we have it guys, thanks so much for listening all the way to the end. We had to kind of cut it short obviously because I had to go and attend to my wife and she’s absolutely fine. She’s an absolute soldier. It’s actually Valentine’s Day today, I’m recording in the morning so I’ll be taking her out for lunch today. I’m not the most romantic person in the world, I’m a typical bloke. In fact I was going through Google Photos and I was searching for, Google Photos is brilliant, you can actually search for like know, Jaz wearing orange and you’ll find all the photos of me wearing orange. So I typed in romantic photos, right? And I had to scroll a long way to find photos of me and Sim together basically. And they all seem to happen before we had kids.
So there we have it guys, I’ve been taking my fair lady to a nice lunch. I hope you guys had a good Valentine’s Day. I hope you enjoyed that post I made on protrusive guidance with the endo access cavity on a molar in a heart shape and if you’re not on protrusive guidance yet head to protrusive.app and of course I look forward to interviewing Nav in the future to find out about his fascinating journey. How did he end up at three different dental schools and well into his 30s and what drives him?
Bye for now and catch you at the same time, same place next week.
Ah, the things we wish we could tell our younger selves! This week, I’m chatting to the fantastic Dr. Alan Mead from Michigan, USA – better known as the host of the Very Dental Podcast. We’ve come together to talk about our top 5 things we wish we knew when we first started our dental career. Alongside the clinical gems, we’ve got great advice on maintaining top-notch mental health, nailing your priorities, and acing that elusive work-life balance.
https://youtu.be/H7VFhw_TmOQWatch IC044 on YoutubeFor all things very dental, have a listen to Dr. Mead’s podcast, “The Very Dental Podcast”:
- @very_dental_podcast on Instagram
- Very Dental Facebook Group
- www.verydentalpodcast.com
We’re still striving to gather the money that Nafisa needs in order to receive life-saving treatment. If you can, please consider making a donation, and every share also means the world to this family – Fundraiser by Mufaddal Adamji : 1 year old Nafisa with SMA type 1 (gofundme.com)
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of the episode:
00:00 Intro
01:01 Dr. Alan Mead
03:14 The Very Dental Podcast
05:16 You are not your career
10:32 Don’t commit to working Saturdays
13:33 Things to avoid
17:08 Things to pursue
22:39 Work to learn
24:25 The internet
27:05 Understanding people
28:56 Magnification and light
32:04 Sectioning teeth
34:16 Private dentistry
40:34 Outro
If you liked this episode, you will also like IC037 – Personal Sacrifices
Did you know? You can get CPD from the Web App or Phone App and watch premium clinical videos, for less than a tax deductible Nando’s per month?
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: In this episode with Dr. Alan Mead from The Very Dental Podcast, we're going to cover the five things we wish we knew at the very start of our careers. It was so much fun talking to Alan. This episode is very relatable. And I know usually that's the kind of episodes you guys love the most. The kind of themes that we talk about are beyond dentistry.Jaz’s Introduction:
They’re about life and values, but also we have a few clinical themes as well. I think you’re going to gain from this episode whether you are a young dentist at the very start of your career, or you’re going to look back your career and reflect on some of the things that, particularly Dr. Mead, who’s had 27 years of dentistry and his reflections, and my reflections for the last 11 years, and how I wish I did things slightly different from the very start.
Hello, Protruserati. I’m Jaz Gulati. If you’re new to the podcast, welcome. It’s great to have you. You are officially now a Protruserati. If you’re listening to this and you like what we do, you are Protruserati. And this is a free podcast for the community. If you want to get CPD or CE certificate and get access to premium notes, which pop up on the side, then please do support the podcast and join our membership at www.protrusive.App. Now to the main show and I’ll catch you in the outro.
Main Episode:
Dr. Alan Mead, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast. How are you, my friend?
[Alan]
I’m good. How are you doing?
[Jaz]
Amazing. We were just talking now before we hit the record button. I told you about my adventures of sleeping on the rug downstairs because the couch is too small and me feeling a million dollars because of the fact that I was away from babies.
My second born, as I told you, is a terrible sleeper. And then you very admirably confessed and admitted that actually your kids were good sleepers. And that’s very good of you, I think.
[Alan]
Yeah, both kids. The first one, you don’t know anything when you have your first one. So you don’t know what’s normal. And he slept through the night almost immediately. So that’s just what we thought was normal. So then when the other one didn’t, like, every night we thought there was something wrong with him or something. Yeah, so I’m very lucky. We have very good sleepers.
[Jaz]
Yeah, I’ve got two bad sleepers. My four year old is okay now, but just the six month is taking its toll on us a bit, but yeah. This is the beauty of it. You have to enjoy it. It’s a phase, and we’ll get over it. Today, I’m welcoming you on as someone who I look up to so much. Obviously, I came on the Very Dental podcast and you are, as I said on that episode, you are the OG of dental podcasting. For those small number of people who haven’t seen your content, heard of the podcast, obviously I’m going to encourage everyone to check it out, but please tell us about yourself as the podcaster, the dentist, the family man.
[Alan]
So I’m a dentist in Saginaw, Michigan, and I live in a town called Midland, Michigan. There about both two hours north of metro Detroit area, so I’m kind of in the middle of the mitten of Michigan if you will. And compared to most of your listeners and frankly most of my listeners I probably am closer to a rural dentist like the town I work in is about 60, 000 people which is not rural, but I mean it’s it’s relatively small compared to a lot of folks Although we do have a ton of dentists here.
I graduated from the University of Minnesota in 1997 So I’ve been practicing for 26, 27 years, something like that. I bought my practice, the practice that I’m in right now, in 1998. So I’ve been in the same practice for whatever that math is, 20, 25 years now.
[Jaz]
Amazing.
[Alan]
Yeah, I bought a building 10 years ago and renovated it. So I’ve been in this building for 10 years. Started the podcast almost 10 years ago. It started out as the Dental Hacks podcast. I have a coffee mug that has the dental hacks on it.
[Jaz]
Yes, I remember that original image very well.
[Alan]
The Dental Hacks podcast in 2021, we kind of split up and I took the podcast. He took the Facebook group, and so I rebranded as the Very Dental podcast. What’s funny about it is, is like everyone thinks as a podcaster, you need to make sure you have a really narrow niche in I mean, dentistry is a narrow niche, yes, but, like, we didn’t have a very specific, we were dental, we weren’t specifically business, or specifically clinical.
And so, I’ve kind of kept it that way, I’m sort of all over the map on dent, and I obviously there’s things that I like to focus on more than other things, but the reality is that dental, it’s for dentists, dental team members, I have a shocking amount of dental salespeople, like people who are in the dental industry who are salespeople.
And I came to realize that it’s because they commute all the time. They’re driving all over the place. And so they have podcasts.
[Jaz]
And they gain valuable insight and inside knowledge from listening. And I have the same actually. People reach out to me. And what I like about your podcast, very little podcast is that, very clinical.
For example, like a theme, a sub branch, if you like, and you’ve got a variation of guests. So I do admire that. And you have the group functions, which actually, I don’t know if you know, I actually also have group functions. I promise I didn’t copy you. But I noticed that you had group functions and I had group functions.
It’s a similar concept. But mine, because obviously my interest in occlusion and yours generally, because it’s a great name for it.
[Alan]
And I think that’s one way I have a round table. I’ll have, when I have more than one guest, I call that the group function, because we used to call it a brain trust back in the day. And actually those are some of the most popular episodes in there. No, it’s podcaster. It’s harder to get groups all to be able to record. So, yeah, it’s a little harder to do the group function.
[Jaz]
Well, with the theme of your podcast and how they can vary in across dentistry, I’m actually really excited to delve deep into today’s topic. So five things I wish I knew at the start of my career, and I was thinking, we were discussing about you coming on the show about, hmm, what could I ask Alan? I’m sure you have guests like this where you think you’re trying to put a finger on, okay, how can I make a fruitful episode to maximize the sort of exchange?
And with you, I thought, because you’ve spoken to so many dentists, you’re so well networked. And you’ve been in the same practice for so many years, which is, I think, so valuable. I’m really excited to hear your five. I’ve also brainstormed my five, but I’m more interested in yours. And I might just slip in with mine. So please, if you don’t mind, one at a time, what are the five things you wish you knew at the start of your career? What’s numero uno?
[Alan]
I think, number one might go through all of the things that I came up with. I guess in stated simply, you are not your career. I think a lot of people, dentists in particular, dentists in this space who are sort of social media savvy and listen to podcasts and are kind of, not only is it a job for them, but it’s sort of a lifestyle and they sort of immerse themselves in it.
I think people like us are prone to have too much focus in basically defining who we are by what we do. And I think that’s a problem for dentists because I mean, I’m guilty. I’m as guilty as the next person. I started on, in 2002, I got on Dentaltown and I’ve been kind of online in dentistry and like sort of in the know with that kind of stuff for that long.
And so I tend to think of myself as a dentist first. And the reality is none of us are dentists first. We’re people first and dentistry it’s a vocation and it can be something you’re passionate about. But I think it’s important that you realize that you’re, I have to say that, running through this, my experience, I’m a recovering drug addict and alcoholic.
And I’ve been clean and sober for 21 years. So it’s been a while. But I remember when I was in treatment. I was in treatment for four and a half months. I was basically plucked out of my practice. My dad ran my practice while I was in treatment. And the thing that I realized was, Life doesn’t change at all that I’m not in that office, like there is no one, there might have been people, oh, he’s not here today, like, as much as I want to believe that very important that I am their dentist and it’s very important in the world that I am a dentist.
For those four and a half months, I really wasn’t a dentist. I was just a guy trying to get clean and sober. And I think the other thing that I run into in the same vein, I’ve worked with a lot of dentists attempting recovery and the dental team members maybe with drug and alcohol problems is that, like there’s a lot of people that don’t get to do what they learn to do.
There’s people that have to stop whether it’s because they lose their license or some people medically cannot do it anymore and that sort of thing and in the reality is those people struggle sometimes when you know because they they think about their own personal being. They’re dentists, man.
And so it’s important that you understand that you are not your career and that sounds so trite. But it’s I think I think it’s a very it’s a really good point and I didn’t realize this until much later.
[Jaz]
Well, two reflections I have on that. One is the second point you made about actually if you need to take either a forced or unforced sabbatical of any sort or any reason to stop dentistry, then yeah, life moves on. And it’s actually liberating. I know Gary Vee talks about this, that actually we need to see ourselves as this tiny speck in the universe. And actually we are not that important. Get over ourselves. And we’re not that important. But at the same time, we are also the most important thing because our health is so important.
Because without our health, then we cannot serve our families and be there for them. And the second reflection actually, is you remind me of the very first chapter, I believe, of the book, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Have you read that classic?
[Alan]
Yeah, a million years ago. I did. Sure.
[Jaz]
Yeah. And so it talks about being value centered, right? And so one of the sins is like being spouse centered or being child centers. One of the other sins is it actually talks about a doctor. Like if you’re like career centered and then your total existence is defined by your career. Like this doctor example, they gave the number plate has doctor on it kind of thing.
Then if that gets taken away from you, or if you have a patchy time, which we will do in our careers, right? Then suddenly your universe has turned upside down. So, totally agreed. And I think that’s the two things that reminded me of there. Any reflections on that before we move on to number two?
[Alan]
No, I’d say, I think you got it. And I think one of the problems with a lot of these things is that I didn’t realize them. I didn’t understand them or know them until I had to kind of experience them. And I don’t know that, it’s frustrating because I do a segment on one of the shows that I’ve done. I always called it, I called it the single use time machine.
It was like, if you could go back in time at one time and use the single use time machine and talk to yourself or change something in your life. And the answer always ends up, it’s okay, I wouldn’t have listened anyhow. I wouldn’t have listened to myself anyhow. Because like, at the time, I wasn’t ready to hear that.
And I think a lot of times, that’s real. That’s, I mean, and continues each day, I think, on some level. I’m not sure that a lot of times you’re not really ready to hear stuff until you’re ready, so.
[Jaz]
Well, the beauty of what you’re saying, and what you’re going to be saying for the next 20 minutes or so, and the list of five, actually, I’m going to jump in with my, I’m going to choose the most similar one to what you say, and go parallel, if you don’t mind, and I think that’ll be quite interesting.
But I think the beauty of this is that, if you asked me five years ago, or if you asked me in five years time, and if I asked you a different moment in time, your answer of the five may be slightly different. Because of where you are in your life, where you are with your family, your career, everything like that.
So that’s interesting. So the closest one to what you said that I have in my list of five is actually, don’t commit to working Saturdays. Now, there’s a caveat there because I think when you are young, your first five years, you need to get your hours in, you need to get the experience, you need to do as best you can.
But I regret committing to Saturdays ’cause now my kid’s at school and when it comes Saturdays, I don’t want to be at work. I want to be with my children. What’s your experience been with with working Saturdays and your clinical work hours?
[Alan]
Yeah. I never worked Saturday. I mean, I cut back. I worked Fridays when I bought my practice in 1998. It was four days a week and then I would work half days in my dad’s practice back home. So I was an associate for my dad, and that didn’t even last all that long. That was one of the things. And I don’t, it’s really funny because I don’t even know why I did that. I don’t know that I needed the money.
[Jaz]
Wise beyond your years.
[Alan]
Yeah, I don’t know that I needed the money at that time. I will say that this is not on my list, but like, I haven’t been the guy that’s needed all the things. So money hasn’t been even for a relatively low producing guy, it’s been fine.
So yeah, I listen, the older you get. Now, maybe people just love it so much they’re going to want it. I would never practice on a Saturday. I mean, like, at some point, you’ve got to have a life out of work, you know? So in the last year, I’ve actually gone down to three days clinical. I mean, so I do.
It is amazing. And what’s funny is I think, if you have patients lining up the door and you just can’t get them all in, probably cutting back that much is not a great thing. Or you need to figure out but I didn’t. I’m pretty much able to do in three days what I did in four. So because it’s not, I’m a-
[Jaz]
That’s a recurring theme. I’m sure you’ve had doctors all, a recurring theme on your podcast as well, talking about that don’t work five days clinical, don’t work six days clinical. That’s suicidal, you know? That really takes a toll on your health.
[Alan]
Yeah, oh yeah, that boy does it. I mean, three is plenty at this point. I do longer, three longer days, but you’re never going to run into a spot where you think you’re working too little, I think. I think you’re probably never going to feel that way.
[Jaz]
That’s true. And just before we move to the next one, just to justify, because I have a fairly young audience, and a lot of these people may be working Saturdays, and that’s totally fine. I’ve been working Saturdays since I was 16. I used to work at a DIY shop called Homebase. I was working Saturdays, I was working at the stadiums doing hospitalities on Saturdays, I did lots of Saturdays because I wanted to really work at that specific practice. And as a young dentist, I could only take them on Saturdays, and it was great to get the experience and stuff, but now I’m at a different phase in life, and now I’ve complicate things. For what’s right for me now in my phase is this. So, Alan, number two, what’s your number two for five things I wish I knew at the start of my career?
[Alan]
Your life will have a lot of benefits if you avoid alcohol or other mood altering substances, which is a pretty obvious one coming from me. But like, the longer I’ve been clean and sober, the more I think that living free of alcohol and other drugs, like completely free of, like, I don’t.
I’m not the guy, I’m not the wet blanket who points a finger at someone who’s having a drink or whatever, but I tend to, I see less and less value at all for it, even for people who don’t have a problem with it. And I mean a lot of people that sounds like a wet blanket thing again, probably, the kind of thing that one might learn after a long period of time. They may look back and realize that they wish they hadn’t done that.
But I see a lot of Instagram or Twitter or whatever, or TikTok. They have your algorithm. They know what is effective getting in front of you. I see a lot of sobriety influencers out there, which is interesting to me. I never thought sobriety would have its own selling points that way. But lo and behold, I do see some of that.
[Jaz]
I actually, I feel like an idiot here. I don’t know what sobriety means.
[Alan]
Sobriety, just that you don’t use drugs or alcohol, just like, so in the United States, anyhow, a lot of times I don’t love sobriety because sobriety almost always pointed towards alcohol use specifically, and the alcohol wasn’t really my problem, but that’s in general around here, sobriety.
So basically, these are people who’ve gotten clean and sober, they’re in recovery, and they’re sort of the influencers, which is very funny to me, because that seems like, it doesn’t seem like the kind of thing you would necessarily wave a flag about, but here we are. So, I guess I don’t fault them for it, and I mean if it’s a, well, let me just say this, if you’ve ever asked yourself if you might be drinking too much, people who aren’t drinking too much never ask to tell us that.
Like the idea of, oh boy, I may drinking it too much. That’s not the kind of thing that someone who doesn’t drink very much asks themselves. So that’s just something to think about.
[Jaz]
Hey guys, Jaz, again, just interfering with a very quick message. Remember how we’re raising money for Smiles for Nafisa. So if you’re not up to speed for this, Nafisa is the daughter of a fellow dentist, a Protruserati called Sakina. They live in Tanzania and poor Nafisa has a genetic disorder, which means she’s fighting for her life. Now, I made a video about this on Instagram, so please do check out @protrusivedental. Please check out my video, my plea, and why we should all club together to save her life, because if she gets this genetic therapy before age two, we can actually do something really awesome and save her life.
I know you would do the same if you were in Sakina’s position. So as she’s part of the community, I think it’d be great if you have any money in your charity budget per year to donate, that’d be really great. So I’ll put those links in the show notes, but just to give you an update that the drugs company has agreed.
So by the way, we need to raise like 1. 8 million. I know it’s insane, right? But they’ve done almost 700 K already. And the drug companies agree that if you can give a million, if you can get to a million, then they will actually give Nafisa the genetic therapy she needs and then the rest can be on installments.
So this is, we’re actually inching closer for her getting the treatment and saving her life. So please do check out my Instagram video on @protrusivedental and please do consider donating at www.protrusive.co.uk/Nafisa. Thank you so much to all of the Protruserati who have donated so far, or even just shared that Instagram post to get more reach. Let’s join Dr. Alan Mead again for this episode.
Well, a few episodes ago, I actually had an anonymous guest, so we did this thing where we warped his voice and stuff because he was talking about very sensitive topics of drinking too much and a tough relationship and it was a really human episode and back to your first point that we are humans first and anything that can alter our human state and our mind, I echo that.
Now, on the flip side, Alan, what are the kind of things that you do to promote good health. Obviously that’s preventing bad health and keeping your mind clean. But, are you someone who takes health supplements? Are you someone who does other health things? Like on the topic, I recently started to take something called lion’s mane.
These like type of mushroom capsules, which improve your focus. I can’t comment on whether they are really working at the moment or not. I’m taking vitamin D. I do three monthly blood tests, to make sure my vitamin D is good and my other markers, cholesterol, do you promote or do any of this kind of stuff?
[Alan]
Yeah, actually, I mean, it’s one of my my points, but I was wildly overweight for most of my life. Actually, I lost when COVID, when they shut us down in the U. S. for COVID back in 2020, so it was March, I started running, which isn’t a good thing to do for a late 40s guy with a lot of weight.
I kind of wrecked my ankles by running. And then I switched to cycling, but I lost about 50 pounds. And what’s funny about that is that, it wasn’t that hard, but I had nothing but time on my hands. Like, what else was I going to do? So, that’s kind of what I decided to do. But like, I’m actually a type 2 diabetic.
I’ve had high blood pressure forever. I’ve had health issues and it has everything to do with my weight. Here’s the thing, this is the one thing I look back on. I used to think that if I could use that time machine, I would go back and explain to myself that I’m an addict and that I can’t safely do this stuff.
It’s actually not what I would do when I would do this. You need to lose this weight now. Because, A, the longer you’re overweight like this, the longer you’re unhealthy like this, the more toll it takes on you and the harder it is to change as you’re older.
So, one of mine is break a sweat every day if you can. Like, do something that breaks a sweat. Like, I don’t run anymore because I just can’t do it. My ankles and feet are all messed up. But, I ride a bike as many days a week as I can. And I ride pretty hard.
What’s really funny I bought a bike, I bought a really nice bike, it’s sort of what they call a gravel bike, which looks like a 10 speed, but it’s got kind of mountain bike tires on it and stuff, right before I turned 50 in 2021, and I like it, but I didn’t realize, like, I just was buying a decent bike because I was riding a lot, and it was the only thing the bike shop had, like, remember, back in the 2020, 2021, they didn’t, no one had anything to sell, like, there were no, there was no stock of anything.
I didn’t even know. I love mountain biking. And it’s not really a mountain bike. I love mountain biking. So I now have like, I think we have, I have four bikes maybe. I can’t even remember. Like, I mountain bike most days. And I have trails near my house. There’s trails I can drive to that are really good.
So I mountain bike when I can, and I sweat a lot, so I found exercise that doesn’t feel like exercise, it doesn’t at all, like I never think, ah, I gotta go ride the mountain bike, it’s never like that for me, I mean, if I get a chance to ride the mountain bike, and it’s been like this for years now, so it doesn’t seem like it’s changing.
So, I’m an exerciser. I exercise a lot. Like, like a lot, a lot. And when I get out there, I really sweat. And so I think, I think that’s really important.
[Jaz]
But this is more of a recent thing in your time of life.
[Alan]
Yeah, it is.
[Jaz]
More of a more recent thing.
[Alan]
Since 2020.
[Jaz]
And you wish, like you said, the whole theme, you wish you did it at the start of your career rather than left it too late, right?
[Alan]
Think about this, okay? Dental school. University of Minnesota. Some of the nicest gym facilities maybe in the world. Sitting right there and I had access to it the whole time. I never did anything. I didn’t do anything. I drank beer. That’s what I did. So the reality is and these are all things that are super obvious. Everyone knows the things you should do to be healthy and they’re not an easy choice to make because there’s other fun cool things and you’re young and you’re healthy. When you’re young, when you’re in your 20s and 30s and you’re overweight and maybe you drink too much and you don’t have a lot of consequences like you don’t have high blood pressure.
You don’t have diabetes. Like it doesn’t come on until later. Here’s the thing though If I had it to do over again, I would smack myself silly and tell myself to knock it off cuz it’s like it’s a lot harder to do when you’re older and I have regrets and frankly I’m still diabetic.
I take medicine for diabetes every day. My blood sugar is really well controlled, but it’s not gone. Everyone who says once you lose the weight, you’ll lose diabetes. Nah, not really. I still have it. So, I’m managing it quite well, but it sucks. I’d rather not. I’d rather not. Thank you very much.
So it’s one of those things where the fact that I wish I knew at the start of my career, again, I don’t know if I was ready to hear it then. Like I don’t know that I would have listened to myself. But frankly, if I could have seen myself as a person that’s not carrying as much extra weight, that might’ve been more impressive than anything I might have to say to myself.
[Jaz]
And so back on that theme, if I asked you eight or ten years after qualifying for dental school, that you probably wouldn’t have said this at that point, but now, looking back, you do. Now, that’s not on my list, the health stuff, but I kind of always have looked after my health.
In terms of exercise, it’s an important value for me, except the last year I did blip, like this year I’ve started really well, but last year I did blip and that was self induced. It was such a big feat to create the occlusion course that we did that it, I had to suck, and I actually, what I did was, and it’s really sad actually, I had to make a list of things I was willing to sacrifice and things I’m not willing to sacrifice.
And I had to value my family and time with children. And I knew that to the hours I needed to get this done, it meant that it’d be very little gym. And so that sucked. But nothing enhances my mood and reduces stress more than exercise.
And I’m sure you found that that’s all evidence based. The only thing I have perhaps not even similar, but just to offer from one of my list is when you are young, work to learn, not work to earn. And I’ve said this on podcast four, but I was offered this position on Harley street. And I was also opposite which is like the main street in London where all the quote unquote, big doctors are, et cetera.
And I knew from someone that if I’d worked there, my production would have gone up significantly at such a young age. But, this other place had a really good mentor and didn’t have as many patients. But the mentor was always there. Like, how sometimes, oh yeah, come and work for me as an associate and I’ll mentor you.
But that guy’s not there, like at all at the practice. He was very much there. And so I’m glad I picked it at that time, but it’s something I always echo. And so it’s something I realized a little bit later, but I’m glad I was told that about four years after qualifying. So, obviously you’ve always owned your place, but any experiences or reflections on that?
[Alan]
I’ve talked about mentorship a lot, and it’s hard, because it requires not only you to be receptive to hearing things from a mentor, but honestly, it takes a lot of time and effort for the mentor to, they gotta be pretty committed to it. And frankly, it’s hard to find someone, in the United States, it’s just mentorship just doesn’t happen much.
It’s hard. It’s a lot harder to find someone who’s going to commit that kind of time because they got other stuff going on. If you can find a mentor, it’s worth it’s weight. And frankly, if you have to take a pay cut to do it, you should. Yeah, absolutely you should.
[Jaz]
Amazing. Glad you could. But just a cool thing. I’m a reveal for the first time. First ever time I’m revealing this is, I’m an investor in a startup at the moment. I won’t reveal the name of it just yet, but it’s all about connecting mentors with mentees. It’s essentially that and so exciting things to come. Let’s have another from your list. I think we’re number four out for you.
[Alan]
Okay. This one is I’ve learned more recently, of course, but it’s very valuable. And it’s funny to think that a 50 plus year old guy is sucked into social media stuff as someone younger. I’m not a TikTok guy, but I’m on Instagram like, like probably 30 somethings are on TikTok.
Social media, and frankly, the internet is not real life. So, it’s a very important thing to remember. It’s a very important thing to learn. Like I said, when I was in dental school, no one even had a cell phone. So, like if no one had any of this stuff, they didn’t have to.
Just to give you an idea, I mean, I didn’t have my first smartphone till 2010. I mean, I was already, I’d been practicing dentistry for 13 years at that, so it’s like, so a lot of the stuff we take for granted now didn’t even exist when I was there. It is funny to think of, Gen Xers are funny because we started life, what has happened in technology has happened mostly during our lifetime.
A lot of the stuff we take, take for granted, like I had, we had a remote control television that had one of those little clickers. There’s an actual clicker like that was the main TV in my house when I was a kid. So now we’re in this, basically this media, life that everything is at the click of your fingers but social media is everywhere.
It’s everywhere. And I mean, there’s a lot of benefits to all this stuff, but the reality is that what the main downside is, it’s constantly asking you to compare yourself to someone else. You’re not necessarily comparing, we talked about this the last time, you’re comparing yourself to whatever they’re putting out there.
You’re comparing your insides to their outsides. It’s not fair. But I mean, like, it’s so ubiquitous and it happens without any thought that you can think less of yourself and what you’re doing because of what other people are putting out there. And I mean, like, it’s, everyone hears about that all the time, but that’s real.
That’s so real. And I think people forget that or they never learn it in the first place. I think it’s really important. Again, it’s, these are all pretty generic. They’re not very dental specific, the things I’ve come up with, but I think because honestly, life-
[Jaz]
Needs to be said that it needs repeating, this is an important message that needs repeating. I totally agree. And like we said, on your podcast, when I came on, it’s like comparing someone else’s highlight reel to your uncut daily life, basically, and that’s bad and comparison is the thief of joy. Do you have any, a clinical one, by the way, in your five?
[Alan]
I do, I do. I mean, I actually didn’t, but I thought to myself, we got to have talk about that.
[Jaz]
Understand people better, just emotional intelligence and the psychology of people and the psychology of body language. I forget the name of the book, but one of the first books I read after qualifying was about understanding body language and how I look at people differently.
And the most recent book I’m listening to now, Alan, is just completely, wow, just bamboozled me and how much I love it and how I look at the world differently now. It’s called Surrounded by Idiots. Have you heard of it?
[Alan]
I guess I haven’t.
[Jaz]
It’s amazing. I totally recommend it. But you might have heard of the disc analysis or the Disa.
So it kind of profiles people into what kind of personality type they are, what kind of behaviors they have. So D is for dominant, I is for influential. And so it gives you an understanding of why people behave the way they do. So, you always think that why is this person doing this? Why the bit?
Everyone’s an idiot. The whole world’s an idiot kind of thing. And actually, when you understand people’s colors, you understand why they behave in that way and why, when things go wrong, how they behave in a crisis. And it’s just giving me so much better understanding about even just my own family. My wife, I look at her.
She’s very green and this is why she does this. And I need to behave in this way. And it’s just been amazing. So understanding people better will help you with your patients will help you with your relationship with your home and even like something with your dental assistant, which I think a few times in my career, I’ve had a toxic dental assistant and it makes your work environment extremely toxic.
Now you as an employer, a practice owner, I’ve heard that staffing is the biggest headache. Is that something that you echo as well?
[Alan]
It is. Lately the hiring has been a real problem. Just, it’s hard to come. There’s a lot, there’s a lot to that. That’s a whole podcast. But yeah, as an employer, I have not been, it’s been tough to hire.
We’re pretty good right now. We, thank goodness. But we’ve struggled to find the right people in a way that we probably didn’t before 2020.
[Jaz]Okay, great. Let’s hear your clinical one.
[Alan]
Well, it basically has you need to dive into magnification and light just as fast as you can. Like, I’ve heard people talk about, like I’ve been using six power loupes since, what’s really funny, I bought six power loupes from Design for Vision probably in 2005 or something like that. And they said, I tried to use them. Couldn’t get used to them. They sat on my desk and they lapsed past the time I could return them.
So they just sat on my desk and stared at me going, Ah, you paid for us and you’re not using them. So I finally, I finally pushed through. I finally put them on one day and I was able to use them. And I’ve been using high powered loupes with a headlamp for a long time. And then I’ve moved into, literally, I have microscopes in every operatory now too. So, I mean-
[Jaz]
Yes, I’m going to be saying, yeah.
[Alan]
I’m heavy into magnification and I gotta tell you, like it’s a superpower that a lot of people don’t even realize, like, your patients don’t realize how close up you can see stuff. They don’t realize what you’re seeing. And even when you have a conversation with colleagues.
And they’re not using magnification or they’re using not very much magnification. The reality is you’re seeing more than they are. You are able to make decisions differently than someone who’s not using magnification.
[Jaz]
I mean, this may be rude, Alan, but any of our dentists who’s listening to this, and if you don’t use loupes, I don’t trust you. I would never let you go.
[Alan]
No, I wouldn’t let you use loupes. I wouldn’t let you work on me. All of my hygienists will have loupes. I mean, like, like everyone has loupes, but I don’t, and I’ve heard people say, well, you really don’t, if you’re a restorative dentist, you only need to go up to X because if you go up higher, you’re missing something.
I mean, they’re wrong about that. They don’t understand. They’ve never used high magnification and the higher up you go with magnification, the more light you need. So you kind of need to get, like, that is an investment that I would, I’m not a flamboyant guy. I don’t buy very expensive stuff, but that’s an investment I wouldn’t even think twice about.
[Jaz]
A tax deductible essential assessment.
[Alan]
Exactly.
[Jaz]
That hopefully one day they’ll make it a legal requirement for dentists to work with magnification.
[Alan]
Yeah, yeah.
[Jaz]
I heard in the States that you have to have loupes as a dental student. Is that true or is that a myth?
[Alan]
I don’t know if you have to, but everyone gets them in dental school now. I mean, I was actually selling loupes, interestingly, in dental school. I was a terrible salesman. I’m not sure I ever actually sold a pair. But they had students that had loupes that you could try and stuff like that. This was way back in the day. And I didn’t really, I didn’t use them really in dental school, but like I said, once I started using them, I was using them early.
I was using them probably in the late nineties and I was, I had a headlamp on there just as early as I could back when you used to have to plug him into a box on the counter behind you. I don’t know if you ever used anything like that, but it was a fiber optic.
You would literally, it was a cable. You’d like, you’d like, here’s cable and you’d plug it in. And I decided I didn’t want to work without it at all. So I had this box on the countertop. In a reapertory that you’d plug into. Of course, you’d always forget to unplug and you’d yank your head and stuff like that, but magnification and a headlamp are vital and the sooner you do this, the sooner you, if you’re not using it, you think, oh yeah, whatever, I don’t believe that, and then you use it and you’ll go, oh yeah, he was right. I mean, it’s simple as that. You just don’t know until you know.
[Jaz]
A hundred percent, and I didn’t put that on my list, because actually, I was very good early on in my career, and I knew the importance of it, but, my clinical one is well, what’s the most stressful procedure for me, and a lot of young dentists, like first few years out, is the dreaded extraction that you struggle with and you fail and then you need to call a colleague and it’s an embarrassing moment that you need rescuing, right?
And so, that stopped happening when I learned and I fully appreciated the power of sectioning teeth to allow you to make your extraction easier. So the sooner, the sooner, I mean, it took me three years, three, maybe four years to do it.
And now, extractions, anxiety about extractions is a thing of a past for me. And I think the sooner a colleague can learn the power of sectioning and elevating. The more successful they’ll have in extractions and less anxiety in that, it’s a scary procedure. And especially nowadays, dentists are qualifying with less and less teeth extracted. And so therefore the sooner you learn this skill, I think it’s going to serve you really well.
[Alan]
I’d section teeth is, is a superpower. There’s a couple of things about that. First, I always tell myself and sometimes fail at it, I’m not even going to put an instrument on this tooth until I’ve sectioned it.
Like there’s a lot of teeth I can look at and go I’m not even going to, I’m just going to section it. And sometimes I, I still want to see, well, is there any wiggle to it? I don’t know. Find out if there’s wiggle to it after you section. The other thing is if there’s a tooth that’s got, I like to flat top teeth.
I like to take the crown off before I section too, because you can see deeper in. But the thing about it is, is a lot of times you think, yeah, but there’s so much good tooth structure up here, I can grab ahold of it. I’m like, yeah, except it’s too high. So it’s, you’re more likely to break in a bad spot if you leave that there.
So you could argue with me to leave a millimeter or two of tooth structure above the gingiva, but not much more than that. If you’re sectioning, you’ll see better. The tooth is coming out one way or the other. It doesn’t matter if it comes out in pieces or a whole piece. So, like, the more you can see, which is to say, take that crown off and then section, the better.
And I have I still fight with myself about that sometimes, because it seems like a waste when you’ve got good two structure above the gum line, but it’s not doing you any favors. You can’t, it’s just going to break off. So yeah, you’re exactly right.
[Jaz]
The bone belongs to the patient, the tooth belongs to the surgeon.
[Alan]
I love that, that’s really good.
[Jaz]
Yeah, an oral surgeon told me that, so I love that. Well, we’ve gone through your five. My final one, basically, is, the parallel I’d probably draw in U. S. dentist is you have this whole thing about, which I don’t understand insurance, PPO, that kind of stuff. Basically here, the battle we have in the UK is a public funding system, NHS versus private, that kind of stuff.
And I had such anxiety about growing private. I had imposter syndrome, had huge worries. It’s the best thing I did, and I’m not saying that, you’re everyone’s principal will be the same, but to practice the kind of dentistry that I want to practice in my own terms as the way I was taught at dental school and on my courses and to get fairly remunerated for me was liberating for me in my career and really helped me to, I guess, reinforce my portfolio and make me the dentist I am today in terms of being comfortable enough to do so many procedures and enjoyment, fulfillment from dentistry is huge.
And I speak to my colleagues who, are not ready to make that move. They’ll never be ready. They’ll never ever be ready. They’ll always feel anxiety within themselves. But I want to say that this, I mean, I move fairly soon into private, but if I could do it sooner, I would, if I can go back in my career now, anything that you can, so perhaps American audience, this thing about the, the sort of insurance stuff. What’s the advice you give regarding that?
[Alan]
Okay, so I’ve got a couple thoughts about this. We only participate with one. And I was laughing with a friend, like, we participate with one insurance in my office so I’ve pretty much gotten rid of all insurance except it’s one massive insurance that everyone takes.
So the story is it’s still, we’re still participating with insurance. It’s great to say, I’m fee for service except I only take one insurance except everyone freaking has that insurance and it’s a huge, you’re still taking a huge right now so whatever. For me, demographically, I work in an area that was a big General Motors town.
It is a big General Motors town. Everyone, one of the benefits that General Motors people got is just cherry dental insurance. Really, dental benefits that they thought it was great. The problem with it is, is that over the years it’s changed everyone’s mindset about it. Like, your dental insurance does not care what your dental condition is.
You get this much to spend. And when I first started it seemed like a lot. And now it seems like nothing because it hasn’t changed in 25 years. The amount these people got, they used to be able to do multiple crowns and pay 10 percent and all this stuff. Well, it’s not like that really anymore.
It’s different now and it hasn’t really changed much. So, these are golden handcuffs on some level, like it was what was great for me when I started is not so great now, but it’s an awful lot harder, because my mindset’s kind of set too. So, the earlier, if you think that’s where you want to go, I don’t know, I think everyone probably thinks that’s where they want to go, go early, go early, and because there is going to be some pain.
It’s not if you are, there’s going to be some pain in it. And you might as well get through it if you’re going to do it. It seems to be demographically, like if you’re in an area where there’s not a lot of dentists and people don’t have a lot of choices, it’s much easier to do that than an area that’s real competitive.
[inaudible] Yeah. Yeah. But so, I mean, if you’re going to do it, do it early and understand that insurance and benefits have broken the brains of consumers, medical insurance. People think dental insurance, dental benefits are like medical insurance, and it’s not.
It’s nothing like it. I don’t know if it is there, but it’s definitely not here. They limit the amount that you are able to do, and, and so thus, if you have, even moderately complex needs, your insurance for dental benefits don’t mean anything. It’s like a coupon, it’s at best.
But, patients think that, well, I have dental benefits. I shouldn’t have to, this should cover my dental needs. Well, I mean, yeah, if you have pristine teeth with nothing wrong, maybe. So I think part of the mindset of the consumer is a tough deal. So in any case, yeah, if you’re going to get away from insurance, do it early.
And understand insurance, because I have to say, insurance is not easy to understand because every policy is different, and I don’t take the time to be perfectly honest. I’m uninterested in that stuff. So, but if you’re smart, you would do better than I do.
[Jaz]
And just a little caveat and disclaimer that, not to take away anything from the hardworking dentists in the UK who have a contract, I used to say NHS dentist, but then, one of my dentist colleagues and listeners podcast said, messaged me and called me out and said, listen, you can’t call someone an NHS dentist.
We’re a dentist. It doesn’t matter. You can’t say insurance dentist or the dentist at the end of the day. It’s just a dentist who chooses to have this contract with this insurance or insurance. I respect that. And so if you do have a contract and your happiness working for you and you’re serving your patients amazingly, I think the compass should be happiness.
If you are unhappy. Where you are and you try to change things and not working and you think it is just like you said, I love it. The golden handcuffs. The other one I’ve heard is the poison chalice, you know, that kind of stuff. And if you are, if you think this is the thing that needs to change, then now the best time to change was yesterday.
The second best time is today. Alan, it’s been absolutely amazing to have you on. Honestly, you definitely met my expectations of all the different five. I love the variation. They’re so real and I appreciate you revealing some things about your past. past, which I really, really respect and admire.
You’re very straight talking and this is why I would recommend everyone to check out the very end of the podcast. If, if, if no reason at all, then just listen to his voice is amazing. Right. And your commute, trust me, he’s got the best voice in dentistry. And now he’ll be on video as well on YouTube and stuff.
And I’ve been encouraging him in his podcast. Like you need to record some more footage on your scope and stuff and put that on. How’s that going?
[Alan]
It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s really funny because, okay, so one of the scopes I have, they all have cameras. One of them has a real built in video camera, which is really cool. And the one thing they didn’t put on it is, okay, when you pull the trigger for a long pull to start the video, but there’s no indicator that the video is on. So unless you have it up on the monitor where it says recording, you don’t know if it’s recording or not. So, so many times, like. Or I’m getting great footage and I look back and it’s not freaking recording.
I didn’t, I’m like, so I wish that I could get the folks over at Zoomax to put a little indicator light on that, so it’s my technical incompetence that’s holding me up, mostly. Let me just say that.
[Jaz]
Well, there’s a lot we can learn from you. And if you want to learn more from Alan, then check out The Very Dental Podcast. I’ll put the links in the show notes. Alan, thanks so much for your time. I really, I’m not saying, I really enjoyed our chat. Honestly, it was a nice 10 things that we combined together. I appreciate your reflections on mine as well. Thank you.
[Alan]
Thank you for having me.
Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it, guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. I told you it’d be relatable, right? Lots of life stuff in there. You mentioned a few books, a few clinical practice scenarios. I think it’s a very relatable episode, so I hope you enjoyed it. You can get some CPD if you’re a premium subscriber on the app. That’s www.protrusive.app and once you make your login, you can use an iOS and Android.
And of course, if you want to learn more about this and have some questions, do Instagram us at @protrusivedental. This is a managed Instagram, so my team take care of that. So if you have any clinical questions and I always try and help out, they’re probably going to direct you to email me instead.
But if you’ve got any generic queries about subscriptions and content, then please do reach out to us. We’re always happy to help. If you did find this episode useful, please share it with a colleague. That would really mean a lot. And that’s how this podcast grows. Thank you so much. Once again, Protruserati and I’ll catch you same time, same place next week.
Would a Treatment Co-ordinator really benefit your practice?
In the latest segment of our podcast, we had the delightful Emma, an expert treatment coordinator, share her experiences and guidance on the evolving role of a treatment coordinator in a dental practice.
https://youtu.be/4p5iLCX-mgAWatch IC043 on YoutubeWould this TCO model work in your practice? What are the challenges in starting this? Are there any drawbacks? Emma spills all the beans!
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of the episode:
00:00 Introduction
02:21 Emma’s Journey to TCO
5:46 TCO’s role in various practices
10:00 Advantages of a TCO consultation
14:13 Disadvantages of Treatment Co-Ordinators
18:20 Timings of Appointments
21:19 Patient consent processes
23:02 Profitability and practicality of TCOs
25:56 Introducing virtual treatment coordinators (VTC).
28:00 How to find a TCO
31:45 How to reach Emma
If you’re inspired to learn more, reaching out to Emma is a breeze. Connect with her through her Instagram page @em_thetco
If you liked this episode, you will also like Recommend Treatment Plans with Confidence – IC038
Did you know? You can get CPD from the Web App or Phone App and watch premium clinical videos, for less than a tax deductible Nando’s per month?
Click below for full episode transcript:*Episode Teaser: Mentally, why are you worried about a patient booking their next appointment? Why are you worried about how they're going to pay for their treatment? That's not your worry. That's for someone else to deal with.Jaz’s Introduction:*
Hello, Protruserati. I’m Jaz Gulati and this Interference Cast, we’re going to cover the topic of treatment coordinators. Is it right for your practice? We hear from Emma Yates, who is a nurse turned into a treatment coordinator. And a treatment coordinator, if you haven’t heard of this term before, is someone who is kind of in between the reception team and the dentist, right?
They’ve got enough clinical knowledge to discuss the pros and cons of different treatment and help the patient in their journey to find out what’s the best treatment for them and also help them to pay for their treatment, how to finance it and answer those niggling queries they sometimes have and sometimes patients have to wait some time to hear from the dentist.
But that treatment coordinator is a friendly phrase, right? They’re not the scary dentist. They’re a friendly face. They’re an advocate for the patient. And I’ve seen over the past few years, lots of different practices adopt the treatment coordinator model. Now, I’m not sure if it’s just a UK thing or a worldwide thing, but this is definitely becoming more integrated in dental practices.
So if you’re a principal wondering if this is the right move for you, or if you’re maybe a nurse thinking, hey, you know, could I be a treatment coordinator? Or perhaps you’re an associate and you like the idea of your practice, having a treatment coordinator, and maybe you can send them this episode to weigh out the pros and cons of it as per the discussion that we have with Emma.
So let’s join Emma now. And at the end in my outro, I’ll let you know how you can claim CPD for this episode.
Main Episode:
Emma Yates, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast. How are you?
[Emma]
I’m good. Thank you. How are you?
[Jaz]
Yes, absolutely brilliant. It’s a Saturday. I was working clinical this morning. I’ve had a couple hours of de stress, but now, I love, I’m doing the bit, which I love speaking to different people, learning, sharing.
And today’s topic is treatment coordinators of which you are for the past six years. As you told me before we hit the record button, I have so many questions for you, like so many practices could be employing this way of working. And they probably have so many questions. I’d be hesitant for some reason, so many concerns before doing such a big step.
So I think this episode today between you and I will go a long way in helping answering some burning questions that the community might have about having the TCO model. But just before we do kick off properly, just tell us a little about yourself, your journey. How’d you get into being a TCO, that kind of stuff.
[Emma]
Of course, yeah, so I started off as a trainee nurse when I was 18. BTEC Forensic Science in college, decided that uni was not for me. I wanted to go out into the working world, earn some money, but I wanted to stay with a medical background. So, went along to my dental practice had a checkup, and they said, oh, we’re looking for a trainee dental nurse, are you interested? I’m like, actually, yeah, I would be interested. Went along for the day really enjoyed it. I love dentistry, teeth. I love everything about it.
[Jaz]
Are you in the same practice now, by the way?
[Emma]
No, no, so I left there quite a while ago. I did stay there for nine years though.
[Jaz]
Wow.
[Emma]
I did all my post qualifications there, so my radiography, my fluoride application, impression taking, everything that basically got me to where I was today. I worked with a fantastic dentist, she taught me everything I needed to know.
And at the point of nine years, she said, I’m leaving, I’m going to go work in a private practice down the road, what are you going to do next? And I was like, I’m not sure, it’s all I know, like I was so comfortable there. And then she went, well why don’t you go and see Tipton training, they’re looking for a nurse.
Now the background of that was, the dentist that I worked with such a long time, Siobhan, she did the Tipton training courses and I learnt a lot about occlusion, facebow, impression taking from her that she loved from Paul. And it was a scary moment, but I took the jump and I applied for the job. I met Paul, Louise and the team and they liked me and I got the job.
So, I worked for Paul for three years. Traveling around, Ed was his dental nurse, his course coordinator, I helped girls out in the admin team, attended the courses as a sort of a course coordinator. And yeah, I absolutely loved it and I think I learnt the most of my dental knowledge from Paul and his team, which I think made me the person I am today as well.
[Jaz]
Amazing.
[Emma]
Traveling got a little bit too much. We traveled to Scotland, to London, we were traveling to Dubai. And it just got very much quite hectic within your own personal life. So I decided to take a break and go back into general dentistry. And I’ve been back in general for about six years now, which is when I started doing treatment coordinating. Wanted to come away from clinic for a little while.
[Jaz]
Okay, so when you were with Tipton team, with their training department and whatnot, and also in the clinic, you were doing general nursing, dental nursing, and not a TCO at that point.
[Emma]
No, I was-
[Jaz]
Okay. And so for the last six years. Okay, got it. Did the Tipton Clinic not consider keeping you on as a treatment coordinator? Did they have a treatment coordinator in their clinic?
[Emma]
So they didn’t at the time. Majority of the time, the nurses within the clinical team for the dentist that did the courses kind of managed it within the top business. I do know now that they do have a TCO at Tipton’s training that purely deals with balls patients. But at the time it was more dental nurse slash me. That just dealt with the day to day running of the surgeries, obviously on the courses we helped as well. So yeah, at that point we didn’t really have the TCO as such, but I do know now that they’ve introduced that over into their, sort of, business, bam.
[Jaz]
Do you think it’s grown in the last so many years? Do you know other colleagues? Who are also treatment coordinators. Do you have a community of treatment coordinators? And do you think that this is really accelerating or do you think it’s staying stagnant and perhaps practices have been resistant to adopt a treatment coordinator?
[Emma]
No, I think the complete opposite dental practices are really trying to get this TCO role into their businesses. I think the problem is with dentists now is they’re so busy. I mean, obviously you’ve got families. The admin time it takes for a dentist to look after one patient is just, it’s too much for one person to deal with and they have to have more discipline as a team to be able to do that for you.
I mean the whole idea of a TCO is it’s that middle person, so you’ve got your reception team, you’ve got your dentist, and you’ve got the middle person who’s got the clinical knowledge, who can take some of the heat off the dentist but can also support the front of house team as well and that’s how I fit into the team.
I mean, there’s a big, massive range of TCOs in the industry. There’s ones that are literally a bit more of a glorified receptionist who, well, they’ll deal with payments. Make appointments, and that’s really what their role is. We’ve got ones that are a little bit more clinical, which will take scans, talk through payment plans, and create treatment plan letters and get in touch with the patient and discuss that with them.
And then you’ve got probably more my sort of TCO where I do a lot within the business, as well as the treatment coordinator as well. So I would look at development, how we can introduce new things into their business, from what patients have told me about what they want from a dentist. There’s a lot of different elements of a TCO, it’s just finding the right one for you and what you want from a TCO.
Which I think why the pay scales for TCOs are so vast, from like a normal nurse fee all the way up to like a really high fee for a manager basically.
[Jaz]
It’s a very good point you make because there are different types of treatment coordinators, there are different roles that they’re assigned. And this obviously depends on what works best for the clinic, the kind of setup that a clinic has, what they’re trying to aim, what they’re trying to achieve.
What is, would you say, the standard model at the moment? And I want to know Emma is the patient journey, basically the standard you can talk about yours and how you’ve adapted it over time, how you might have improved it, for example, but how do you think most practices are using treatment coordinators where in the patient journey?
Because I know that some practices, what they have is that the treatment coordinator is the first person you meet. They get the history, they take the photos, they take the scans, and they’ll do a handover to a dentist, whereas others like they see a dentist first, and then in between they have a follow up chat, it’s the treatment coordinator who’s explaining most of the fees and stuff, and follow up a week later saying, you know, how’s it going, or how to chat again with dentists, this is what we think. What model do you use, and what are the most people using?
[Emma]
So I think a lot of people are using the model where they see the treatment coordinator post chat with the dentist. I personally don’t like that. I feel like don’t build that relationship up with a patient if you don’t meet them from this offset.
Most of my treatment coordinating knowledge came from when I worked in orthodontic practice. So I worked for one of the northwest largest orthodontic practice for about two and a half years. And they predominantly work with treatment coordinators. That’s the first person that you see, that you deal with.
They educate the patient on everything they need to know. And the orthodontist will actually pop in for five minutes and go, Yep, you’re suitable. No, you’re not suitable. Off they go. And then you back to the TCO and then they take over the selling role and making the appointment. So, I’ve been brought up with my TCO journey to be very much the main part of a new patient.
That is who you’re seeing. Yes, the dentist has a massive role in the clinical side, but you’re building that relationship so that the patient knows that you can be the person they go to and not have to wait till your dentist. When, when going into general practice where I am now, they didn’t have a treatment coordinator, so I kind of developed a role within what I’ve been taught and what I would have liked to have done as a treatment coordinator.
So I introduced the 10 minute chat pre new patient examinations so that they, I can get to know the patient. And I ask all the boring questions, not because I don’t want the dentist to do it. It just means that patient feels you’ve got a clinical background. So I’ll ask the things like, what toothbrush do you use?
Do you use a fluoride toothpaste? Do you clench and grind? Do you have sleep apnea? Do you snore at night? All these kind of things. They go, oh, actually, that’s very interesting. I’ve never asked that question before. And it means that that dentist is not spending the time on them icky questions, or so to speak.
The fluffy questions. That you need to know about, but really you want to get in the mouth and start looking and excited what’s going to happen and, and divide the treatment plan. So I kind of take that off the dentist and I do that and pass that over on my hand over to the dentist. That then means the patient feels that I understand what’s going on.
And then the dentist knows that I understand the patient’s background as well. Whether it was they’re nervous, they’ve got a health condition, they’re interested in a certain type of treatment they don’t offer, so then I have to refer them to another dentist. So it just means that I’m involved in that conversation and the patient understands who I am as a person as well.
Then I will chat to the dentist, tell them everything that I know about the patient, write it all up in the clinical note.
[Jaz]
This is in front of the patient? I’m just trying to get the details here. Like, are you going to walk with the patient to the dentist and do like a handover in front of the patient? Or is this like on a different day?
[Emma]
So I, there’s two different types I’ve done in the past. One practice I’ve worked at, we do it in front of the patient. Now at Parkfield, I do it, get the patient to sit back in the waiting room for a few moments and I’ll go and have a chat with the dentist before they get the patient in.
[Jaz]
What do you like?
[Emma]
I like that.
[Jaz]
You like it so the patient’s outside and you can really tell them what you think.
[Emma]
I mean, you’ve got, there’s some things that you don’t want to say in front of a patient because you don’t want to upset them. I mean, it could be anything from like, they’re very chatty. Oh my god, you know, be careful that we don’t have too much, like, questions about this, that and the other.
Get them in the chair, get back, get on with it. Or it could be the fact, they’ve opened up and said, oh, I’ve got an eating disorder, I’m worried about this, that and the other, because you’ve discussed a bit of diet. They might have really bad sugary habits, and they’re very nervous about telling the dentist that they’ve got a habit.
So that’s when quite nice them to tell me and I can just pass on that question and the answer to the dentist and they don’t have to talk about it until it comes to the end of the consultation and possibly some treatment might be needed to sort of hold that. And so that’s nice.
[Jaz]
What I like about that, Emma, is that, I can imagine if I’m a treating coordinator and I’m sort of going by my history and I’m trying to present all these photos and you’re doing it. And sometimes things in a random order and you need to collect your thoughts, but the patient’s watching you and you kind of get this stage fright, but it’s got a different tone to it. So I like the fact that the patient’s outside and you can just be like, okay, have a one to one and just have your time to sort through things. And, oh yeah, by the way, this, and, and so it’s less pressure. Did you feel that?
[Emma]
Yeah, exactly. And it means that you can kind of dip in and out of dental things. So I mix up my questions. I’ll start off with, last visits and what you do on a routine. They’ll ask them what they do for a living.
I’ll go, oh, by the way, what do you do for a living? Like, what’s yours, what do you do for a job? And then they will have a chat, maybe they’re a teacher, and they’re quite stressed because they’ve had the GCSE class just finished, or they’re just about to finish for half term, and they’re changing schools, and then you go back to them, they go back to another sort of questions to do with budget, and if they want any cosmetic treatment.
So I kind of break up the questions from clinical to personal to clinical and then explain what’s going to happen in that checkup so they’re not going to just get flung in the chair, sat back, and then all these numbers and letters are being read out, rabid x rays, next minute people leave in the room.
So it’s nice that they get sort of a pre chat to kind of know what to expect, especially because I find a lot of our patients come from NHS and private NHS examinations are worlds apart, especially the time that they spend in the chair. And I do feel like patients might get a little bit like, oh, I’ve been in this chair for a good half an hour now, and I’m like, what’s up?
What’s happened? Why am I in this chair for so long? So they’ve got someone to give them a heads up and say why we do things differently and what we’re going to do. I think that helps lap the patient. It makes ’em, again, feel comfortable within the team that they’re actually seeing.
[Jaz]
I mean, I think there are so many advantages to working with the treatment coordinator model. Like the patient feels like they’ve got someone on their side, they’re not the scary dentist, right? They’ve got someone on their side. The other benefit with the dentist is that, some dentists are terrible at it and they don’t like talking the money, right? They just hate it.
And I see you nodding now for those listening. And it’s great to have someone who just may be trained for that. And I think a lot of dentists might appreciate that. And that can work in different ways. I think it’s great to have so much information given to a patient before they actually go in. Just like you said, the advances are numerous.
I want to ask you a tricky one. What do you think? Are there disadvantages of having a treatment coordinator for a practice? Are there any times that you felt that you had to change what you’re doing to better suit a dentist or anything that practice need to consider before adopting this model?
[Emma]
Yeah, for sure. I mean, obviously everything comes with a couple of negatives. I mean, the big one is obviously a wage. Is obviously you’re employing a person to do that job. I mean a lot of dentists try and do get around it by having a multi skilled nurse. So they’ll do nursing some of the week and then they’ll do treatment coordinating some of the week. I personally don’t agree with it.
I think it’s too much for a nurse and a TCO role to be merged. Especially when they’re trying to do what they’re supposed to be doing. So yeah, a wage is a big factor. It’s an extra person in the building that you’re paying a daily wage. The second thing is they need their own space. They can’t do it at the front of reception.
They can’t do it in your surgery because you are in there. So most of the time they need a dedicated room or space to be able to have these conversations with patients. Prior to the refurb, the practice I work at the moment, I basically used to use a spare surgery if I needed to. So I’d do it at the beginning of the sessions, lunch times, end of day, pre consultations.
And luckily I had a small room with a desk in that we could have a chat in pre and post treatment about things like that. So yeah, space is one, wage is definitely one. And then finding the right person. I mean, a lot of people think every dental nurse could be a treatment coordinator, but that isn’t the key.
I think it’s really important that the dentist listens to what the treatment coordinator says, and that they’re happy with the values and the way they’re delivering the treatment plans. Because that’s the person who’s selling you. Like, you need that person to understand everything about you. I mean, I work with five dentists.
They’re all different. Everyone’s different. Jags likes consent. Mariam likes me to tell ask them loads of pre questions. I’ve been, like, to big treatment plans and then to be out on time. So you’ve got a lot of dentists that you’re looking after and you have to understand them, so you have to get the right person.
Someone who’s, obviously, a nurse is brilliant because they understand all the clinical, but administration, organisation as well, that is the key. So I’d say the three ones that do work against the most likely.
[Jaz]
I think it makes sense to have a GDC registered nurse to take on these duties because then they can do the scanning, they can do the photos, they can have that extra clinical input.
Whereas if you take someone who’s like a receptionist without a GDC registration, not being clinically trained, then they’re really then becoming a glorified receptionist. We’re just trained to talk more dental. Would you agree with that?
[Emma]
Yeah, completely. I feel like sometimes if you get non clinical, people will say all day. It’s kind of like going to buy a car at the end of your appointment. Which is not what you want to do. At the end of the day I always like to focus on a dental health point of view. So I’ll always sit down with the patient and say, how was your appointment? First thing I want to know. Good, bad, things you didn’t understand.
Then I’ll go through exactly what the dentist has just told me. So after the appointment, And they’ll pop the patient back in the waiting room and I’ll pop in and have a quick debrief with the dentist and they’ll let us just go this fill in, this fill is thin, this option, this many splints, blah, blah, blah, and then they’ll go, right, okay, back to you.
I’ll bring the patient in and go through the x rays again, through the cost, through why they need the treatment, the benefit, the optional treatment. And then ask them what they want to do. Like, what do you want to have booking today? Do you want to think about it? to book in for this? Should we prioritize this, this and this? So yeah, it’s, it’s got to be, you’ve got to have your systems in place for it to work. For sure.
[Jaz]
I love it. I’d love to have an Emma to go into and be like, okay, Emma, just yeah this is what I need to do. Can you spend some time to explain the x rays, photos and see what the patient wants? And obviously the dentist has sussed this out, but actually going back to the patient journey. So they see you first, then you do the handover. In confidence with the dentist, then the dentist would proceed to bring them in, I guess, to the examination, is that right?
[Emma]
Yeah, definitely. I mean, some of the dentists like me to bring the patient in and introduce them, like it’s Dr. Sambi and Tricia, they’ll be looking after you today, I’ll see you at the end of your appointment.
For instance, Nihal, he prefers to go and greet his patient from the waiting room and take them up to his surgery, have a little chat with him on the way. And then most of the time we’ll go, we’ve had a chat with Emma, she’s told me X, Y and Z, let’s sit you back and then we’ll have a chat at the end of your appointment. So, it’s a nice clean way of doing everything. Everyone knows who’s who and what’s happening.
[Jaz]
How long have you spent with the patient? Collecting the history, very, very vast and detailed history and having the chat and do photos as well.
[Emma]
If needed, yeah. If for any reason I feel like a patient needs the photographs and yes, if it’s like a cosmetic or an orthodontic appointment, if it’s just a, what I call an MOT, which makes the dentist laugh, I won’t bother because I can just have a say, give me a big cheesy smile and then I can see if there’s anything like a coloured crown that’s wrong, or margins, or lost filling. I can just make a quick note of that and does it need to be photographed.
[Jaz]
Okay, so how long does that all take you?
[Emma]
About 10 minutes.
[Jaz]
The whole, well, so all that history taking, and potentially photos, and just introducing yourself, telling the patient what to expect, that’s just 10 minutes?
[Emma]
Yeah, about 10 to 15 minutes. Obviously, it depends how chatty the patient is. If you get a chatty one, then it might be a little bit over. But normally, as soon as they try to get into the practice, I normally take them straight into my room and get going. And then I just let the, the dentists don’t normally lie about, they know the patients in the room with me, so they’ll just catch up as soon as they get into the clinical chair.
[Jaz]
And then obviously this depends dentist to dentist, but on average, how long are the dentists that you work with booking for the new patient examination?
[Emma]
So we allocate 40 minutes for the patient.
[Jaz]
And then once they’ve had that and maybe their dentists are starting to talk about the different options that are available, at that point do they hand over to you on the same day or a different day? Just tell us more about what happens afterwards.
[Emma]
Yeah, so normally the same day. Obviously, everyone’s entitled to annual leave, so sometimes it might be obviously when I come back from holiday, it’s expensive. But normally they’ll tell the patient, take a seat in the waiting room, I’ll pop in, we put it all on the computer together, go through times of treatment, anything that I need to know or need to know it’s optional or upsell, anything like that.
Once they’re all saved, I’ll bring the patient back into my room, and again, we’d spend 10 20 minutes just going through everything and sort of do it like a closed down.
[Jaz]
Good, and at that point, how much detail do you think the dentist is going into treatment? Like, the whole consent process, right? Like, if they’re saying, the whole root canal versus extraction debate.
Oh, plus also you got some decay on these molars. And also should we extract this wisdom tooth or not? They’ve had a bit of a chat there, but then it’s a bit difficult in terms of what they’re leaving for you to also discuss and what they’ve discussed already. Any sort of guidelines and hints to what do you think the dentist should be saying in their 40 minutes? Versus what you see that you excel at the most with the time that you have after the clinical exam.
[Emma]
Yeah, I mean, if it’s like a basic, this tooth is need removal versus root canal treatment, then obviously a TCO should be able to sort of discuss them sort of, to’s and from’s. If it’s more of an in depth thing like, I don’t know, a splint for instance, obviously that definitely needs to be just discussed in surgery.
So I think a lot of the dentists depend on what they’re like a lot of dentists like to speak, some dentists don’t speak at all. And again, it varies from dentist to dentist. So normally when they do a handover, they’ll tell me what they’ve already told the patient. So I don’t need to go back over that too much.
But we do have good consent processes within the practice. So what we normally do is a week before their due to come in for an appointment for RCT extraction implant, we will give them a post and pre op instruction via email and give them a week to at least read through everything and allowed to ask any questions just in case when on the case examination.
They didn’t understand everything or they misconstrued something. It means everything’s sort of cleared up before the actual appointment. And it’s not that down to that when you sit a patient in the chair, they go, oh no, I didn’t have the tooth out today. It’s like, that’s what you booked in for. It means that they’ve had that sort of week’s notice.
They know that they can’t go to the gym. They know they can’t drink alcohol for 24 hours. And it means that consent process is locked in. That you know exactly that patient knows what’s going on in that appointment.
[Jaz]
Have you ever had a miscommunication with a dentist? Has it ever happened? Or is it all human stuff? I’m just trying to draw some maybe some funny stories from you maybe as well. But you know, just humor me. Any sort of a funny time where you thought, okay, yeah, we need to change how we work with this particular dentist because there’s some miscommunication or confusions.
[Emma]
I wouldn’t say I’ve ever put the patient in for the wrong treatment, so to speak. But dentists can talk very backwards sometimes, and I sometimes have told a patient, Paul, with the wrong thing and then I’ve gone, I’m really sorry. I’ve told you completely the wrong thing, but a dentist has now explained this, this, and this, and you’re backtracking. But luckily, I mean, I don’t really mind being the person the wrong, but I’ll never make sure the dentist look better in the wrong.
It’s always, it takes a flat. But so he is a dentist. I will never allow it. I’ll always say it’s me. So yeah. Oh, it’s got the back.
[Jaz]
Wow. Well done. That is lovely to hear. So well done too. Emma, do you think TCOs, as far as any data, I mean, I’ve got my bias, I think I know the answer, but do you think they’re profitable?
A practice ultimately to have this spare room, another person to pay the wage. Do you think they do it because the practice turnover will increase or do you think they’ll do it because everyone just has more breathing space and everyone enjoy their quality of work more?
[Emma]
I think it works both ways. I think the first one with profit and obviously bringing more into the practice is yet. It’s got to. If you’ve got a TCO that is literally controlling all your treatment plans that are over a certain amount. So, normally anything over sort of 1, 500 is when I would track that patient and make sure that all their appointments are up to date and that I’m checking in every week to make sure that everything’s going smoothly.
Obviously, a lot of systems have things like Care Manager, which is SOE, and I’m guessing Dentaly and all the other ones have similar things. Another reason what a TCO needs to be doing is sitting there on a weekly basis and going through all these open plans. Giving the patient a call, making sure it’s not just because they don’t understand what the treatment’s for, that it’s from a health point of view.
Got decay, you’ve got a decay in his tooth. It’s really important that you have this filling done. If it’s at least six months, it could be bigger, it could go into a root canal treatment. And it’s another reason why it’s really important that a nurse or someone with a clinical background is having these conversations with a patient regarding open treatment.
So from that point of view, yeah, it’s got to. If someone’s monitoring your patients and the open course of treatment, Then, and recalls, and surely the practice should be making more money. A researcher’s can’t do it. It’s not viable for someone in front of house to be dealing with recalls, with a patient in front of them.
And then obviously taking payments as well and making a relaxed environment. One of the things that we’ve done at Parkville is take the phone lines off the main desk. So it’s purely just a podium with no phone lines. So it’s just that patient being dealt with at that time. And that’s helped massively with front of house and making sure that’s all under control.
From a patient sort of perspective, it means that they’ve got someone to always go to. So a lot of my patients are quite dependent on me now, which is nice because it means that they trust me and they understand that they can come to me and they’ve got-
[Jaz]
Are you Whatsapping? Are you like a business WhatsApp?
[Emma]
So we’ve got WhatsApp. I’ve actually just taken on a, because we’re so busy, and I’m so busy, we’ve just taken on a virtual treatment coordinator as well. So it’s called VTC and what they do is they help with all the new patient phone calls. So if a new patient calls, it will go to our VTC team, Ellie and Danny, and they will vet the calls for us and they will allocate the right appointment and put them in the diary and then they’ll still see me on the first appointment.
It just means that the front of house team are not having to worry about clinical questions or where they should be going in the diary because they’re already busy doing their own job, which is looking after the patients that are actually in the physical building. So that’s quite nice. If dentists haven’t got a TCO but they feel like they want that extra support when booking new patients in and they haven’t got a me to speak to beforehand, then VTC would do that for them and ask all them questions, build a relationship, paint a picture of the practice for them as well.
[Jaz]
Excellent. And I think the moment you mentioned about care manager and looking after patients with open plans at the moment, my nurse, Zoe is not only doing all the millions of things that nurses do. She’s also then getting tasks set to have a look at care manager, make sure she’s going through with a fine tooth comb.
It’s tough. It just makes sense to me to have a TCO. I’m going to be sending this episode to my principals and twisting their arms that, you know what, can we get TCO? We’ve got the spare surgery. Now and again, it would be good. And I’m sure lots of other clinicians are thinking the same thing.
[Emma]
Yeah, you don’t have to be there like seven days a week. And you could have someone who could do it from home. You could have someone who come in two days a week and did it. It just purely depends on how many patients you are dealing with on a day to day basis. Obviously the TCO role grows. I’ve gone from the practice having and not having a TCO to two and a half years being there.
Is that dentists that I worked with originally were a bit unsure what I was supposed to be doing. And they’re like, why aren’t you here again? Why can’t we just do that? And then now they’ve come to the point where they’re quite dependent on me and they like, when I’m on holidays, like, don’t want to be here.
Which is really, really nice. That means that they obviously have a lot of confidence in what I do. But it shows that the dentist does need support. Why are you, I know your nurses are brilliant. I’ve been in that clinical world before. In surgery, you need the best person next to you. But mentally, why are you worried about a patient booking their next appointment?
Why are you worried about how they’re going to pay for their treatment? That’s not your worry, that’s for someone else to deal with, sure.
[Jaz]
I love that so much. I’m going to make that my opening snippet on this podcast. That is brilliant. I love that so much. Emma, you’ve answered all my questions about TCOs that I had for you.
Is there any other messages you want to give? And I also want to learn, if a practice is thinking about doing it, how can they learn more about this? Where do you find the indeed of TCOs? How can you actually help and facilitate practices to find a TCO or build that into their infrastructure?
[Emma]
So the only thing I wanted to mention was obviously the free consultation site. Cause I feel like a lot of dental practices do still do free consultations, which is great for a patient, but we’re still finding that dentists still do their own free consultations, which I think is just crazy. I think if you’ve got a skilled nurse like your nurse who knows quite a lot about dentistry, about what you would do as a dentist then it’s good for them to be able to have that extra skill rather than looking for a care manager.
Also having that sort of base where a patient could just pop in the door and be seen straight away for a free consult rather than having to wait for a dentist to do so. So, I think definitely when you’re looking for a TCO, make sure they’re clinical. Make sure that they can do free consultations, make sure they’re spending time in the clinic, so they understand how you work and what treatments you offer.
I mean, all our dentists at Parkfield have different things they like to do. So, obviously, we have a jagged tendo, with our fixed implants, we’ve got Joe doing his sleep apnea, Marion, like, doing facial aesthetics. You’ve got to really key in and find what that patient wants. You might end up seeing a free consultation and have three types of treatments come out of it because they actually never knew what they, what you did as a practice.
So the TCO is there as sort of a brand person like you’re the walking brand of the practice, you’re the person who knows absolutely everything about the practice, what they do, how they can deliver it, how much it’s going to cost, how long it’s going to take. So yeah, you need to find someone that when you meet them, you think actually yeah, she could be the face of the practice.
He or she, I shouldn’t be there, say she, so we’re used to nurses being she’s, but the men are coming up with a dental nurse in the day.
[Jaz]
That’s true, that’s true.
[Emma]
Yeah, exactly, yeah. So please look for someone who is that person who you think, oh yeah, they could be the brand.
[Jaz]
It must have been so nerve wracking the first few times you did it, right? Just like, because you must have been so used to having a dentist there in the same room, and then it was just you. Did you feel like, really like, whoa, out of your depth, maybe?
[Emma]
Yeah, for sure. The first time, obviously when I was at Turret, the orthodontics practice, I was learning from a girl that I’d known for years and she was just, okay, you’ve done a couple now, I’m going to leave you to it.
And next minute I’m doing Itero scans and taking clinical photographs and taking x rays. I’m talking through positioning of teeth, occlusion. I’m just like, hang on, have I just gone to uni five years and just not realised? And you forget how clinical you actually are. For the dental nurse, you assist in someone, but you actually know a lot.
As a TCO, you get to have your time and say, actually, I know this stuff. Yeah, I’m okay. I get it wrong sometimes. I’m not perfect. And I’ll book the patient in for a Mary Lamb bridge, and I’ve not checked the slide. And to see if they’re going to hit it, they move tune forward. And it’s been times that, oh, and this plan’s not going to work for this patient, but we’re going to do this instead because you’re not a dentist.
Well, 90% percent of the time tend to get it right over just learning what their patients want. But the dentist knows the need. So yeah, it can be very nerve wracking. You’ve just got to persevere. It’s okay to be wrong. Don’t answer questions if you don’t know the answers. And if in doubt, you’ve got a dentist next door, just get them to pop in and have a little look. It’s not going to do any harm.
[Jaz]
If any practice principal out there has been trying to pep talk a nurse into developing their role into a treatment coordinator, please do send them this episode. I think Emma’s given us great insight and talked about real world feelings and emotions, but also how well the whole model.
The patient journey can be enhanced. I think that’s brilliant. Is there any way you recommend we go to learn more, Emma?
[Emma]
There’s a couple of places that you could look to. A lot of the good courses now are usually for free, which is great. So, you’ve got myself. I can come in and do some chats with you, one to one, Zooms, check what the practice wants, help put some systems in place.
[Jaz]
And how do we reach out to you? How does anyone reach out to you?
[Emma]
So I’ve got my own Instagram page, which is emma.tco, which you can tag if you happen to. Or an email address that I’m happy for you guys to post. Or you could just reach out to the practice and let them know that you want to speak to me.
Other options are through implant providers or Invisalign. So Invisalign have got the wonderful Laura Houghton who’s offering courses for their Invisalign providers. We’ve got Mia Den, who’s got the lovely Alison, I think her name is, who’s doing all the implant nursing coordinating. So reach out to your providers, TCO training.
Send the nurse on the course, see if they like the idea of it. Give them one patient to try and see how they get on. You might find not any of them need that much training. I personally have not done any training, so to speak. I’ve just self-taught, watched other people, watched dentists. Got on a few courses and kind of took everything that I like and made it into my own system.
My system won’t work for every practice, but a system will work somehow by changing a few things we can make it work.
[Jaz]
Well Emma, I think I can safely speak for all the Protruserati that you are very easy to talk to, you’re bubbly, you’re smiley, you’re honestly, I can see why you took to treatment coordinator like a duck to water.
So I think if you have, if you’re listening and you have an Emma in your practice, cherish them, but see if you can push them and develop them and let them blossom into something amazing. Like we’re in the 2023, I think this is going to grow year on year on year. So I think if this has pushed you over the edge to consider it, it’s definitely got me to kick my principles into like, hey, can we consider this?
You can have that conversation again, but I think it’s one to be had with your own teams and it’s got to be right for your practice and your business model. Emma, thank you so much for giving up your time to be on the podcast. I’ll make sure I’ll put in the show notes your Instagram handle and how they can get in touch with you as well as all the other people that you said.
[Emma]
Thank you so much for having me as well. It’s been lovely to speak to you.
Jaz’s Outro:
Thank you so much. Well, there we have it guys. Treatment coordinators. I think they’re brilliant. I’m definitely going to be twisting John and Chris’s arm to try and consider, can we employ this into practice? And it’s really got to be right for your business, right?
It’s got to be right for your practice, where you are in your journey of developing your dental practice. But I just think there’s so many advantages of having a treatment coordinator. So if you found this episode useful, please give it a thumbs up wherever you’re watching. If you’re on YouTube, like it.
If you’re on Spotify, Apple, please rate it. This is how the podcast grows. And of course, if you want to get CPD, if you’re a Protrusive Premium Member by visiting protrusive.app for less than the cost of a tax-deductible Nando’s per month, you get premium access to all the clinical videos and CPD for episodes just like this emailed to you by Mari, who is a CPD manager for Protrusive.
The website for that is protrusive.app. You can actually learn on your laptop and answer the questions. And it’s super easy to claim your CPD. Otherwise, I look forward to catching you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.
As promised - the 2nd episode in a week specifically for new graduates looking to map out their career.
After last week’s episode on making a Dental Portfolio, this time we are joined by Dr. Ajay Dhunna, a soaring young dentist who graduated in 2018. Join us as we uncover his journey from dental school to becoming an associate, and gain valuable insights on how to excel in your dental career.
https://youtu.be/QP8ggPjqYxc Watch IC042 on Youtube
Communication and collaboration are crucial aspects of dentistry, and Dr. Dhunna emphasises their significance. We look at the value of shadowing clinicians in different areas of dentistry, attending conferences, and networking events – discover how these interactions can sharpen your language and communication skills!
Work-life balance and well-being are essential for a successful dental career. Dr. Dhunna and Jaz discuss practical strategies for managing stress, taking breaks, and maintaining a healthy personal life.
Learn from his experiences and gain valuable tips on reflection, communication, dental photography, career development, and work-life balance.
Here are some resources we promised:
An Introduction to Dental PhotographyTrinity Dental Courses
Highlights of the episode:
01:12 An introduction to Dr. Ajay Dhunna06:46 Going from a newbie dentist to an associate08:28 Reflection and the importance of clinical photos09:10 Attending courses12:09 Photography and setup18:41 Communication26:43 Planning your next career move33:37 Being proactive and portfolio presentation38:40 Maintaining your personal life and managing stress42:50 Trinity Dental Courses
If you enjoyed this episode, you will love Not Your Average Young Dentist Journey
Are you a final year dental student or a recent graduate looking to kickstart your career as an associate dentist? In our latest episode we sat down with Dr. James Murray, a passionate foundation dentist who shares his recent insights and experiences on how to land a job as an associate dentist.
Dr. Murray understands the challenges that come with transitioning from dental school to real world practice. He discusses the importance of building a strong portfolio and reflecting on your work to overcome imposter syndrome – embrace the learning process, seek feedback, and use every situation as an opportunity for growth.
But what’s the best way to showcase your skills and make a lasting impression on potential employers? Dr. Murray reveals his secret weapon: an online portfolio accompanied by a thoughtful cover email. In this episode we also delve into tips for approaching dental practices that align with your values and interests.
Struggle with taking clinical photos? Don’t worry, we’ve got you covered! Dr. Murray and Jaz provide helpful advice for improving your photography skills. So, if you’re ready to take the next step towards a fulfilling career, tune in to our podcast and unlock the secrets to securing your dream job!
Access premium clinical videos by Jaz and gain CPD for Podcast episodes via the Protrusive.app
Highlights of the episode:
00:00 Introduction03:14 Dr. James Murray04:02 Dental school experience06:22 Imposter syndrome08:02 Curriculum vitae09:09 Covering emails11:01 Do the research11:30 Portfolios14:14 Having the right attitude19:37 How to make your portfolio20:45 Photography in dentistry23:52 Photography tips and tricks26:30 Resources for photography27:56 Advice to new graduates31:22 Just-in-time learning32:08 Outro
[Trigger warning: this episode discusses topics related to mental health, depression, self-harm, alcohol abuse, and suicide.]
Humans first, Dentists second. We will all have personal rough patches during our career - but how does this impact our work and our patients?
A Protruserati shares his experiences of a toxic marriage, self harm and alcohol dependence - I am so grateful he anonymously shared his valuable insights and lessons for dentists seeking to prioritise their mental well-being.
https://youtu.be/ZED_yS8v8sc Watch IC040 on Youtube
Throughout the episode we touch on coping strategies, emphasising the value of exercise and physical activity for mental well-being. We also explore the guest speaker's path to recovery from alcohol abuse, including their positive experience with the Allen Carr course, which aimed to change their perception of alcohol. We delve into their experiences with counselling and highlight the importance of being in the right mindset for therapy to be effective. In addition to this we touch on the HeartMath technique, a powerful self-regulation approach that our guest found beneficial in managing emotions and achieving a sense of calm. Below you can find links to these resources, including the ConfiDental helpline - an accessible and confidential listening service designed specifically for dental professionals.
Allen Carr EasyWay – www.allencarr.com/easyway-stop-drinking/HeartMath – www.heartmath.comConfiDental – 0333 987 5158
Access premium clinical videos by Jaz and gain CPD for Podcast episodes via the Protrusive.app
Transcript link
Highlights of the episode:00:00 Introduction04:22 Our guest’s story12:32 HeartMath14:59 Poker face18:33 Going to work mentally unwell21:00 Leaving toxic environments27:38 Advice for those struggling31:34 Reaching out33:39 Outro
How long do you spend at the end of the day writing notes? Are you always home late? I used to spend HOURS writing up notes after a long day in the clinic, but not anymore.
I have been on a journey to find tools that make record keeping easier, more efficient and higher quality.
The toughest sessions were TMD consultations where there was so much to take in that my poor nurse struggled to get everything down - that’s when I discovered Dental Audio Notes.
I brought on the founders, Dentist Ala and Engineer Adam - to discuss the audio recording (and transcription) as part of dental records.
Disclaimer: I have ZERO financial interest in DAN software. I just think it’s bloody brilliant.
Dental Audio Notes (DAN) is a service designed to revolutionise record-keeping in the dental industry. DAN offers secure audio recording and transcription of patient interactions, allowing dentists to master record-keeping effortlessly.
https://youtu.be/dRlvlGUyQQQ Watch IC039 on Youtube
Here’s what makes DAN an invaluable tool for dentists:
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Accurate documentation – DAN captures the entirety of the conversation. Dentists can later annotate the recordings, providing additional context and making the documentation even more robust
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Time efficiency – writing notes can be burdensome, especially when dentists have a high patient volume. With DAN's transcription feature, dentists can save valuable time by automatically generating accurate and comprehensive clinical notes
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Security – DAN takes care of storage, security, and privacy. Dentists simply need to press the record button, and DAN handles the rest, maintaining the recordings in a secure and confidential manner
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Easy access and sharing – With DAN, dentists have the option to refer back to recorded consultations whenever needed. This feature enhances communication and aids in treatment planning. Additionally, dentists can choose to share the recordings with patients, fostering transparency and patient engagement
For those interested in DAN, early registration before September 1st 2023 offers the opportunity to take advantage of the SUMMER2023 pricing. This includes a subscription of £30 per month for 30 hours of recording, with additional hours available at an affordable rate of £1 per hour. DAN offers a free trial period, allowing dentists to record up to 6 hours for free, providing ample opportunity to explore the features and evaluate the service’s suitability.
Dental Audio Notes Website
Highlights of the episode:
03:37 An Introduction to Ala Rozwadowska and Adam Marsh10:34 The benefits of audio recording consultations15:12 When to use dental audio notes23:12 Elevating your communication skills27:53 Gaining Consent31:47 Dento-legal feedback34:06 What will DAN be able to do in the future?38:30 Free trial and prices42:43 What Ala and Adam hope for users of DAN44:13 Dental coaches and mentors47:22 Microphones
If you enjoyed this, you will also love Consent Is Like An Onion – Are You Consenting Your Patients Correctly?
Stop waffling and start communicating effectively. Stop giving 75 different treatment options and RECOMMEND the ideal plan based on their goal (hint: ask more questions!). Become efficient with patient communication by switching to video letters using Loom.
In this episode, Prav Solanki talks about the trust built between the Dentists and their patients, and how that trust is the foundation for providing the best treatment plan for each patient. After this episode you will realise that sales is NOT a dirty word, and you will love his definition of it.
https://youtu.be/cNVMKpzbqXIWatch IC038 on YoutubeCheck out the example Loom videos on Premium Clinical Videos section of the Protrusive App.
Download Protrusive App on iOS and Android and Claim your Verifiable CPD/CE by answering a few questions + You can get EARLY ACCESS to the episode + EXCLUSIVE content
Highlights of the episode:
- 6:33 Prav Solanki’s Introduction
- 8:56 Sales in Dentistry
- 13:53 Information that patients needs to know before being eligible for a free consultation
- 18:47 Learning the art of concise communication
- 25:56 2 Stage processes in Business
- 27:58 How to build trust with your patients
- 34:05 Delivery of the Treatment Plan
- 36:51 Using Loom for Treatment Plan Presentation
Check out courses by Prav Solanki:
https://courses.iasortho.com/courses/gb/business-mindset-mastery
https://courses.iasortho.com/courses/gb/phone-school-with-prav-solanki
https://courses.iasortho.com/courses/gb/sales-and-communication-mastery-for-tcos
If you enjoyed this, you will also love Presenting Treatment Plans the Comprehensive Way
No need for violins – this episode was to share our behind-the-scenes story of creating an online occlusion course.
This year has been the most challenging for me and Mahmoud Ibrahim as we worked hard to make OBAB the most tangible, real-world, and comprehensive occlusion training on the planet. We faced many struggles, hardships, and sacrifices along the way.
I want to thank you all for your support, your help and your feedback. You have been a great help in this journey and I am so grateful that we were able to accomplish it with your blessings.
In this episode, me and Dr. Mahmoud Ibrahim were invited to the Dental Innovator Podcast to talk about the journey, challenges and sacrifices we made while working on OBAB. This episode will also inspire you regardless of your own situation. Whether you are starting a practice, buying a practice or starting a business within or outside of dentistry, this episode will give you inspiration and a perspective.
OBAB One-Time Pre-Launch Deal is now SOLD OUT – thanks for all your support!
Highlight of this episode:
- 2:27 Dr. Jaz and Dr. Mahmoud’s Introduction
- 5:52 Driving force in doing OBAB
- 8:56 Process in making online course
- 13:04 Online Course vs Live Course
- 16:48 Work-Life Balance
- 20:31 OBAB Journey
- 28:12 OBAB’s post course support
- 34:54 Responsibilities in Business Partnership
- 41:00 Qualifications of Dr. Jaz and Dr. Mahmoud to teach people occlusion
- 47:33 Dr. Mahmoud’s journey inside and outside dentistry
- 49:12 Marketing aspect of an online course
- 52:04 Advice for young dentists
- 55:42 Innovations in Dentistry
If you liked this episode, you will love How to Win at Life and Succeed in Dentistry – Emotional Intelligence
Dr. Karl Walker-Finch shares his journey of pain to passion as he reveals the secrets to finding YOUR passion in Dentistry.
We started by discussing our crippling imposter syndrome as we left public Dentistry to practice privately. Along that theme we highlight the importance of taking control of your own destiny.
Karl’s new book, ‘In The Loupe‘ raises money for Confidental (emotional first aid for Dentists) and is a powerful book for Dentists that wish to practise without fear and establish the right work-life balance.
https://youtu.be/YPv71yr62tECheck out this full episode on YouTubeDownload Protrusive App on iOS and Android and Claim your Verifiable CPD/CE by answering a few questions + You can get EARLY ACCESS to the episode + EXCLUSIVE content
“We do not need thousands of specialists in full mouth rehabilitation” – Dr. Karl Walker-Finch
Highlights of this episode:
- 3:12 Dr.Karl Walker-Finch’s introduction
- 5:48 Experiencing Imposter Syndrome
- 11:40 Private Practice vs Public Practice
- 16:31 Finding Passion – Ideal work for dentists
- 20:59 Top tips to help dentists find their ‘whys’ – Dr. Karl’s pathway before niching down
- 29:34 Taking control of our own destiny
- 39:32 Implementing the power of atomic habits in Dentistry
- 44:12 Dr. Karl supporting ‘Confidental’ – helping dentists with their mental health
You can now grab a copy of In The Loupe: The Secrets to Finding a Passion in Dentistry by Dr. Karl Walker-Finch!
If you enjoyed this episode, you will love Passion and Values in Dentistry with Dr. Dhru Shah
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: n this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Karl Walker-Finch, who's the author of the book called In the Loupe, the Secrets to Finding a Passion in Dentistry. Hence why the name of this episode. Now, some of the other titles that are also considered were GDPs, just Want to Have Fun.Jaz’s Introduction:
And the other one that describes this episode really well, which I almost considered was Fall in Love with Dentistry all over again. Hello, Protruserati. I’m Jaz Gulati and I’m the host of Protrusive Dental Podcast. This is a non-clinical interruption. We call this an Interference Cast. If it’s your first time listening, thanks for joining me.
I appreciate it. It’s a whole three or four years worth of content that you need to explore, but if you are a regular listener, thanks for joining us again. This episode is a bigger picture episode. This episode is kind of like a feel good and an emotional exploration of your why and your purpose in your life and in your career.
Some of the themes that we cover are things like imposter syndrome, my goodness. So I do get imposter syndrome less now than I used to, but when I get it, I get it in a big way. So we’ll talk about how Karl experience is and how we both overcome that. We also talk about our journeys in moving to private density and how we actually felt bad about leaving the public health dentistry and what that kind of looked like.
Our little roadmap. The other thing we discuss is how we both want to, we’re both on a mission, Karl and I to infect you guys, you listening right now with enough positivity that you can head into work with excitement. In fact, the thing I love about protrusive and what it’s become and you guys is the messages I get are kind of like in this vein here.
I’m just going to read a message out to you from, oh, hey, it’s Dr. Albert, Albert, thanks so much, for freeing a listener. You sent a really lovely message. He said lots of nice things and I’ll cut to chase. He said, I’ve been practicing for seven years and have been stuck in a lot of routine, mundane mindsets that have been holding me back.
And watching PDP episodes on YouTube has gotten me so excited about all sorts of new things. Thank you again, and please keep up the great work. So, these messages, which I get saying about how you’re feeling more positive towards sensory, this is what it’s all about, man. This is what it’s all about, and this is such a huge part of what me and Karl discussed today.
We talk about finding your why, but also why Karl does not like goal setting. So if you listen towards the middle to end, you’ll find out why goal setting is not recommended by Karl. And a big part of this is mental health and not feeling like you have to be like every other Instagram dentist. Like you don’t have to do that to be happy.
There are other ways of defining your values and living your life and working your career in tune with your values. And what I love about Karl and his book In the Loupe is that all the profits go towards ConfiDental. ConfiDental is a charity which is emotional first aid for dentists. So Karl, I applaud you, my friend.
I think what you’re doing in spreading positivity in our profession, much needed, positivity is absolutely fantastic. And if you guys enjoy today and the conversations and the themes that you should definitely pick up the book, it’s out from the 27th of February. Show Karl and ConfiDental your support.
I hope you enjoy my chat with Karl today. I hope that you’ll feel inspired to take control of your life and take a massive stride towards having a fulfilling career. I’ll catch you in the outro.
Main Episode:Karl Walker-Finch, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast, my friend. How are you?
[Karl]
I’m fantastic, Jaz. Thank you so much for having me on. It’s feels like it’s been a little welcoming, mate.
[Jaz]
It’s been great to see you because you’re such a great member of the Protruserati. You are the one that came up with a term Protruserati. So for those who want in the background, it was on the Facebook group and I was like, ah, our group needs a name.
It’s just called Protrusive Dental Community. I think that we can do better. And there were so many different suggestions. There were some obscene ones. I’ll have to figure out, I’ll to find that little thread on Facebook. But I loved, I love Protruserati, so thank you so much. Which is why you’ve been sent a hoodie. Just show off your hoodie, man.
[Karl]
Yeah, I’ve got Marty, here. It’s not got baby stain all over it of anything. So yeah, it’s, it’s been-
[Jaz]
Mine’s usually got coffee stains on it, so you’ve done well. No, again, thanks so much for contributing to the community in that way. Tell us a little bit about yourself, buddy. Tell us your origin story. I want to talk about something. I want to talk about a large part I talk about today is your book and what you write in your book. Cause I love that so much. And the charity you’re supporting, and the great content is the best dental book I’ve read in my life. I’m just telling you right with that right now.
Okay. So, I’ve read a lot of dental books, is the best dental book I’ve read in my life. So I want to say that right now. Make it public. But tell us about you, Karl. For those who don’t know you, tell us your origin story.
[Karl]
Yeah, you’re very kind. You’re very kind. Thank you. Well, yeah, so I grew up in Wilmington, moved over to Liverpool for my undergraduate, my BDS, and qualified in 2010.
After some ups and downs job in university, got out into the big wild world of dentistry. Started practicing in the NHS, did five years in the NHS to start off with, married a Yorkshire lass and then moved over to Yorkshire.
And when I moved over to Yorkshire, I was looking for these jobs. I was looking for NHS jobs and every NHS job I could find was in a corporate. And I’ve never worked for a corporate, so I can’t really comment on what it’s like to work for a corporate.
[Jaz]
It’s crap. Sorry, sorry. I’ve got a frog in my throat. Really bad frog. My, awful frog.
[Karl]
You’ve got. But I’d never worked for, and I didn’t, I hadn’t heard great stories and I didn’t fancy it. And so, I thought, well, what else is out there? And there was a private job going practice in Woodfield, well, a couple of factors in Woodfield.
And because of my background in dental implants, cause I’ve done a few dental implants by that point, it fit really well with whether principal dentist wanted to take the practice with regards to offering more things in-house. And so, I got the job there and I started working in a mostly. Private practice.
[Jaz]
Can I just ask you; can I just stop you on that Karl? When you were applying for that position, did you get like something that I experienced when I was going fully private is, this imposter syndrome. Like you feel like you’re not ready to go into private. Did you have, did you battle with that?
[Karl]
I get imposter syndrome most days at the moment. Still, it did. Absolutely. Yeah. I had this trepidation about getting into private dentistry.
I mean, I kind of had this loyalty to the NHS. I wanted to repay the NHS for, you know, all the help and support and the funding that got me through university.
And, you know, I’ve done five years, but I felt like I still wanted to give more. But yeah, I thought, right, well, the standards going to go up. I’ve got to do better. I’ve got to do more than, and to some extent that’s true. Yeah. You know, people are paying a lot more money for this service and yeah, you’ve got to offer a le a better level of service.
But it came to a choice of like, well, do I want to sacrifice me and what I’m doing and the work I’m doing to go and work for a corporate NHS style environment still? Or do I want to push myself and raise my level to fit in and go, yeah, you know what, I’m going private and it’s not going to be perfect straight away.
Nothing ever is. But I thought, you know what? I’m going to push myself and if private is all it’s cracked up to be then great. I’m going to push myself to be at that level. I got in there and I was surprised at how quickly you adapt to the working style. More time, more talking with patients. It’s great you get, actually have proper conversations with your patients and connect-
[Jaz]
Proper relationships as well.
[Karl]
Yeah, and you know, there will be those that can argue, you can do that on the NHS to some extent. And, you know, I always tried to connect with my patients when I was working mostly in NHS, but I really get to dedicate pretty much as much time as I want to or need to, to every patient.
You know, if they’re anxious, they’re just getting more time and that’s fine. Yeah. Whatever it just, you can do whatever you need to do for your patients.
[Jaz]
The thing that I found most liberating is not being confined by what the system can dictate you can and cannot do. And just like forgetting about it.
So now when I’m on Facebook and I’m scrolling through the dental groups, Anything that’s about what does the system say can be done, or what the system is allowed or not, I can just, I can smile and just skip right past that. I’m not giving that any of my time attention. So in the same way, it felt liberated, like the shackles have been broken because now I wasn’t thinking, okay, this patient needs, three root canals, four crowns.
I might as well work at Tesco’s versus also trying to then unfortunately, this, I’m just speaking the truth and trying to think, okay, how can I work smarter here so that it puts me in my practice in a better situation in terms of how much time is spent in the chair. Those are kind of real thoughts that happen every single day and let’s face it.
So having to not think about that and having to just to think, how can I help the patient? Now, of course, in the real world, in private, you have budgetary constraints that every patient carries with them, but that is part and parcel of any service that you provide. But that is much nicer challenge to have and a nicer problem to have than working in a confined environment. That’s the biggest benefit I thought.
[Karl]
Yeah. I think the other thing for me was not, I had this real difficulty doing what I felt was sales selling private treatment to patients when I was on the NHS. And I’d be like, well, I can do this crown for you for 200 and was it 246 pounds or something when I was last in the NHS? That’s, I don’t know what the band three is now, but yeah-
[Jaz]
Hashtag inflation.
[Karl]
I go in, well, yeah. But then going, well, I could do it privately for you for 400 pounds. Well, why would I do it privately? I don’t know, it might be a slightly nicer crown. But the reality was I wasn’t nearly likely to be doing an awful lot more than I wouldn’t. And I just, I felt really conflicted by it.
[Jaz]
I hated that so much, Karl. And same with the root canal. Now, I don’t know how our colleagues do this and some are great at doing it about, oh, you can have the NHS root canal now you can have the private root canal in the private, I get to use. This fancy equipment, the electric equipment.
Wow. I mean, that is a shaky territory. And I didn’t want to go in that. I’d never ever have done a private root canal whilst in mixed practice I just couldn’t do it. Because for me it was like, well, you either do the root canal or you don’t. So anyway, that’s why me And you didn’t make great NHS dentists,
[Karl]
Yeah. And I don’t know. And you know what? I enjoyed my time working as an NHS Dentist. And I enjoy my time working as a private dentist and I’ve had highs and lows in both. But now I would really struggle if I had to go back into a fully NHS or a nearly fully NHS environment. I honestly would, I don’t think I could do it. I couldn’t do the job justice, and I have a great deal of admiration for anybody who can’t.
[Jaz]
Hundred percent.
[Karl]
It’s a hard job.
[Jaz]
You guys, the dentist that and you know what I should give myself stuff on the risk because James, I’m not going to say a certain, I’m not embarrass you, but James, had a nice beer with you one day and you told me off in a nice way for calling out NHS dentist and calling him NHS dentist.
And you’re not, you know, just a dentist who chooses to work under a contract. So, give myself something. There’s no such thing as an NHS dentist, such as a dentist who chooses to work under that contract. And you’re right. And for those dentists who choose to work an NHS contract, are doing an amazing service, keep it up in a good way.
But if you feel as though you need to change course, then you should. And maybe this episode will inspire you. Maybe Karl and my experiences is going to hopefully help you along the journey. We’re always easy to reach on the Protrusive Dental community. Check us out on Facebook. But I want to take this direction of the podcast.
I just want to do a little bit of celebration of your book, Karl. So please, tell us about your book and then I’m going to pick apart because a few of my favorite chapters, a few of my favorite sentences. I want to just get you to speak a little bit more about that. So just tell us about, your book because at the time me and you connected, I was also writing a book.
I’m happy to share the name of my unwritten book. It’s called, The Bit Between Your Teeth. I was really proud of it. Tell us about your book, Karl, because you’ve done far more than I ever could. It’s really good.
[Karl]
Yeah, I mean the points of the book, I’ll say, just to segue in from the last point, I’ve not differentiated you between NHS and private within the book, you know, dentist.
And my career, as I said, has been up and down as a dentist. I’ve been qualified like 11 years now, and I’ve had times where I’ve had that feeling, that dread all weekend about knowing that I’ve got to go back into work on Monday morning and get flew another week of work. And you know, I’m not relating that to any NHS or private.
This is just, I had this dread that thought. I’ve not always loved being a dentist. I’ve not always loved being in dentistry. I do now. I love the fact that we get to help people every day. I love the fact that, you know, we’ve got to have this knowledge, this skill, this passion, this intense attention to detail, the perfectionism, the challenge that every different case brings, and the fact that we can make a big difference to people’s lives.
I love it. I really do. But it’s not always been that way. A few years ago I started listening to these personal development books on audible reading and a lot of stuff. All these great people, Stephen Goldin, Daniel Pink, Austin Kleon I’m looking up at my bookshelf now.
[Jaz]
Simon Sinek. There’s a lot of Simon Sinek I can sense in your book. Yeah, absolutely.
[Karl]
It is. And all of these things say, wow, this is amazing stuff. This is really powerful stuff. But so much of it isn’t really relevant to me. I’m doing all this reading and I’ve read the dental books as well and all these, and I said, you know what, wouldn’t it be great if I could take everything I’ve learned my journey from disliking, hating, not wanting to be a dentist, the fear of going to go through another week, the fear of patients complaining about me getting sued, the GDC, all of that fear and anxiety about being a dentist.
What if I can show people how I’ve built myself a career that I love and you know the thought once upon a time think, oh God, I’ve got to do this for another 40 years. To now going, great. I get to do this for like another 30 years or longer if I want to. How have we gone from A to B? And if we can bring in all of this stuff from all these personal development books.
I mean, my audible, I had a look before to just check. I want like two and a half months of listening time on Audible now, and I’m like, well that’s bonkers.
[Jaz]
What speed do you listen at Karl?
[Karl]
One and a half to two times, depending on the speed the innovator talks.
[Jaz]
Yeah. Okay. That has a strong bearing on it. You’re right.
[Karl]
But yeah. What if we could get all of that into like one book that’s relevant to dentistry and that can make a difference to some dentist lives and, you know, help other people love what they do. I mean, there’s that fear of everything that doom scrolling that we do through Facebook, reading everybody else’s horror stories and the, and how unreasonable these patients have been to them and all of how reason reasonable the principles been to them or the nurses.
All of this stuff, all of these problems that we encounter. You know, what if we could find some way of helping people overcome these issues and grow stronger together and really build this career, this passion, for helping people with dentistry, for doing what we love, because I’m not the only person who loves what loves what I do.
I know you do. It’s obvious the moment you speak to you or listen to one of your podcasts. And there are thousands of other dentists who love what they do as well, but there are many, many other dentists, possibly many more dentists that don’t. And you know, this is not like a switch. It’s not like you’ve either born to love dentistry or not.
You know, this is a journey you can go on and you can build this amazing career for yourself. And what I wanted to do was take everything that. I’ve learned in my career so far and used that to maybe help other dentists get to the same place, that same feeling that I’ve got of going, great. I’m back in work tomorrow.
I can, I’m going to do this and this and this, or, you know, I’ve got a new assessment. Awesome. What’s this patient going to be like? You know, it’s a great feeling to have, but it’s not something that a lot of people do have.
[Jaz]
It’s so true. And I think that’s the number one thing going forward for the mental of dentists with something we’re going to touch on as well. and I’ve always said, I’ve always been the vocal about being about okay, not rather being, but sometimes to know which direction to head in. You have to understand which direction not to head in. And the kind of direction we as dentists should not be heading in is the kind of dentist.
Now as you’re like curing, you’re looking at the clock. Not because you’re counting down how many seconds you are waiting for the like you to finish, but you are actually genuinely waiting for the day to end. Everything that we should do should help us to deviate away from that, I think. And definitely your book is, does that, and I’ve just chosen a few things now.
You talk about finding your passion, and that is such a big part of it, and I just wanted to say that, or read out, or just some segments of it. It’s just to put it in your context so you can explain more about what is the ideal work ferry dentist? So, you, you talk about how the work can sometimes be on one end of the spectrum can be done in laborious and on the other end it can be overwhelming and exhausting.
So, I’m just reading for certain parts of your book. And I love this term that you’ve used, which I’ve never seen related to dentistry before, and use this term emotionally expensive. And that is something that I really loved and I reconnected to. So just explain a little bit more a about that in relation to finding your passion in dentistry.
[Karl]
Yeah. I mean, dentistry is exhausting. I remember that feeling that I still get tired at the end of the day today, you know, don’t get me wrong, but that feeling earlier in my career when I wasn’t quite so used to talking people and engaging with people at such an intensity and forming new relationship, it takes a lot of energy in your mind to really focus in on exactly, you know, what each patient needs, what each patient wants, and you have to make all these decisions through the day, these diagnoses and everything about every step of the treatment that you’re providing.
If you are early in your career, you’re not used to doing that. Your brain hasn’t strengthened its muscles. Cause our brain’s a muscle in a lot of ways. Like anything else, you know, if you want to get stronger, physically stronger, you go to the gym and you push yourself to your limits.
You stress your muscles, and you stress your muscles and they recover and they come back a little bit stronger. And our brain’s the same. You know, you go to work every day and you stress your brain. You push your brain, you push yourself just out of your comfort zone, and you engage with a few more patients and you on a deeper level.
And that’s emotionally challenging at the start of your career when you’re not used to doing that. You can’t go from zero to perfect straight away. You have to build it up over time.
The key with finding your way is when you are getting exhausted and when you’ve been, you know, on the NHS I’ve maybe seen 30 patients.
As in getting towards the end of the day, it’s having that resilience to get back up and go again and say, you know what? This next patient is now the most important person. It’s challenging yourself to push yourself up to that next level again, to go again and to connect with that next person.
[Jaz]
How did you find your passion, you think? So just taking bits and book like everyone’s got their own journey. So how did you figure out that the implants, the cosmetic dentistry, the rehabs, that was your calling. And what do you say then? And then we’ll move on to the fact that the happiness doesn’t necessarily come from just doing the kind of work that you do.
Because the next bit I really loved was, I’m just going to read the bit I absolutely love, was that, ‘If you enjoy doing checkups and routine dentistry, the levels of challenge that brings the stability, the income, and the freedom of not needing to constantly attend the next course, then embrace it and run with it.’
Man, I love that so much. I think a lot of people need to hear that. A lot of people who see Instagram dentistry and everyone’s posting all these full mouth rehabs and people are swimming in Invisalign liners and stuff like that and setting up all these boxes of Invisalign. But really you are just happy to provide a good level of care, which in some people’s eyes might be basic, but yeah, you love that and you don’t feel the pressure of having to go on these complex courses all the time, then there is a place for you in this universe. It’s the message I got from that. And I think so many people would love to hear that.
[Karl]
You know what, it’s not just a place, it’s not just a place for you in this, it’s actually, that’s the bulk of what we need in dentistry.
That’s that. You know, we don’t need 40,000 implant specialists. You know, you can’t, we’re not specialists, but you don’t need 40,000 people who can place dental implants. You don’t need 40,000 people who can do Invisalign. What you need is, you know, maybe 30,000 people, 30,000 dentists out of the 40,000 dentists in the UK who are really good at being general dentists, who are really good at looking after their patients and caring for them and keeping them well maintained, preventing general dental disease, and that’s the most important part of dentistry.
[Jaz]
And I think that needs to be said. So I’m so glad we said that. And then on the opposite side, if you don’t enjoy the routine stuff, there are many different pathways. Or if you don’t enjoy dentistry at all, you go into that as well, in your book. Cause there’s only so many other pathways with dentistry you can take from specialism to hospital community, research.
But it’s about realizing that your happiness doesn’t come from whether you are in NHS, or you are in private or how you’re remunerated. There’s far more to it. So what I want to ask you is, Karl, when you were going through this journey in yourself, how did you realize that okay, just doing the general routine dentistry didn’t quite cut the mustard for you and you wanted to put yourself in these extra courses, uncomfortable scenarios, complications, because with doing a high level work comes high level complications, more sleepless nights, that needs to be said.
So how did you decide that, okay, this is the pathway for me and I want to abuse myself in this way before I can become good at something and provide this level of niche service?
[Karl]
Yeah, I mean, just to pick up on something you said there. Every level of dentistry has complications. Okay. And what you’ve got to be able to do as a dentist, is be able to deal with the complications of the things you’re doing.
So the fact that okay, implant, yes, I place dental implants, yes, I do sinus lift, and are all of this stuff that comes with that I, before you are ready to undertake that treatment, you’ve got to be confident that you’ve got a pretty good grasp of how to deal with the complications of doing that treatment.
That’s one of the biggest hurdles to overcome when you’re pushing yourself to develop, do it, put in an implant in screwing an implant in dead easy. No problem at all. It’s chimps work. It’s the old jokes about theological the surgeons in the hospital, they just screw bones back together or whatever.
You know, the chimps, you don’t need any kind of special skills really to screw in it, and put a screw in a jaw but it’s dealing with the complications, interpreting the situation, doing all the planning and all of that stuff that comes with it. And no matter what level of dentistry you are at, if we can categorize it into levels, even for the general dentist, you’re going to have complications.
You’re going to have complications without MOD restoration that you’ve just done is going to break at some point, and you’re going to have to deal with that. Or you’re going to go to do an MOD restoration and you’re going to have to find that you’re going to find that those costs are really, really narrow, really thin, and they’re going to rake off if you leave them.
You know, when you have to out. You have to make that decision direct and indirect. And so dealing with complications is something that you have to do at every point in your journey in dentistry. Coming back to your point about how did my journey lead me to where I am now? I never got to a point where I said, oh, actually, you know, being a general dentist doing the routine dental checks and all of this isn’t enough for me.
What happened was I went to university and like most people, most students, most 18 year olds go into university to get dentistry. The biggest exposure to dentistry they’ve had is orthodontics. So I went to university. Oh great, I’ll be an orthodontist. Then I got into university, right? Let’s go and explore orthodontics, go and invest myself as much as I can in orthodontics.
And I got there. I was going through it, I think. This is really boring. Don’t like this. It’s my opinion. That’s just my perception of it.
[Jaz]
If you don’t like dentistry, be an orthotist. We all know that.
[Karl]
Yeah. No, no, no. Well, I wouldn’t have looked at orthodontics and I didn’t enjoy the orthodontics, so I was like, okay, well what else is there?
And I was going and I was going to be, actually, I’m not bad at taking teeth out, you know, obviously now 21, 22 year old thinks he knows everything because he’s been on to take out an upper six. But you know, I said, right, okay. Surgery’s possibly where it’s at. And then these things called dental implants, 2009, 2010, were really starting to take off.
Think, right. Well, okay, how can I find out more about dental implants? And I was looking around at where I was going to go for my foundation year in dentistry. And there was this practice on the will called Glen Keir, and I was like, actually, they place implants there. They do a lot of implants. So the guys now my mentor, my foundation trainer was David Speechley, a guy called David Speechley
And there were two foundation trainers in the practice who was Simon Wright. Both of these two are now professors and it’s just, you know, so I saw this practice like, oh, you know what they do implants. I had some colleagues in all the years that I knew from dental school had been there and said, oh yeah, it’s a good practice to be out, get good exposures to all this stuff.
It’s like, you know what, that’s where I want to be. So I did everything I could to get myself into that practice. And when I was there, I did everything I could to shadow Simon and David placing dental implants. I thought, you know what, I quite like this idea of dental implants fill in these spaces, not having these fluffy dentures all over the place.
So I immersed myself in the subject as much as I could. And then come the end of my foundation year, I was thinking, yeah, I still really like this idea of dental implants. I’d love to be able to do this. So I got myself on a course and I went and did Professor Buser’s course in dental implants in Manchester, and I did the year course and got myself some patience and Simon and David mentored me and as it went along, I was just really enjoyed doing the implants and I was still doing everything else alongside it.
Still enjoyed doing the other bits, but the implants, I was like, you know what? I really, really like this. And so, I immersed myself in it a bit deeper. I went round and shadowed some more people. I went on more courses than I did a Master’s in it, and it just built quite organically. It wasn’t ever the case of, oh, I hate that.
General dentistry stuff. So, I’m getting out of that. I want to do everything I can to the implants. I still do dental health checks. I still look after a list of implant patients. And I love that. I love seeing the same faces come back every six months.
The relationship I’ve got with them, checking in with the kids as the kids are now getting older and all of the beautiful things of general dentist, all of those long-term patients that you see over and over again.
I still love doing that, but I also really love the implants as well. And just so happens at the moment that more people need implants than, or more people need me to do implants and rehabs and things like this for them, than general dentistry. And so the balance is tilting that way. So it wasn’t ever a point of going, oh no, I’ve got to get out of that situation.
It was just, I really love this situation. Let’s find out more about it. Let’s do as much to do with that as I can. And over time it’s just built and built and built.
[Jaz]
But you also did this thing whereby you thought it was orthodontics, so you are proactive. You did, you expose yourself to orthodontics and you didn’t get the same love back.
You made a decision. Actually, this might not be for me. So it’s not to say that, you know, if you are a young dentist and you’re thinking, oh, let me try implants, and then you go to shadow someone and you might not like, enjoy it at all, and that’s okay. Now shadow someone else who maybe does oral surgery or someone who does endo and you can visualize yourself being in that position.
So it’s about getting that exposure, getting that mentorship, getting some courses under your belt that are low level, and then eventually you build it up to something like a masters that you’ve done. That’s a good way to progress. And I guess it’s not about moving away from general dentistry, it’s more about finding a niche and an enjoyment of a slightly more specialized area where you can excel in. I guess that’s a good way to describe it.
[Karl]
And that’s the biggest thing for anybody coming out of university now if they’re wanting to, I listen to your podcast the other day with Pav about finding your niche in dentistry. I know it’s like an old one now, but it seems it was a while ago, but it’s that finding what you love and what you really enjoy and what you’re good at.
And if it is, say you wanted to be a general dentists, go and shadow some people being general dentists. Go and find some dentists who are working in nice practices who you maybe look up to and you go and see how they work, see how they operate in whatever it is.
You know, go and find out more about it. Read about it, read papers, read books. Go and shadow people. Ask people about it. You know, speak to people about it. Immerse yourself in that subject. And if the passion sticks, if you do it for a while and it’s still going strong, great. Do it some more.
[Jaz]
That is so true, and I think it’s a point well made that we always think about shadowing people with an enhanced skill or shadowing someone who’s an oral surgeon or an orthodontist or let me go shadow this person doing a sinus lift.
But actually, I remember vividly my experience of shadowing Rajiv Ruwala as a GDP when I was in my DF one. And I’m thinking, I was thinking, wow, man, this is a GDP who just did some beautiful crowns on the anterior. Now I’ve just seen someone for cobalt chrome. Now I’ve just seen child. Everyone’s left smiling the variety’s great.
So that was actually a big part of my journey. So I think I just want to emphasize that if you know, give GDP a shot as well, give general dentistry a good shot. Don’t just think that, okay, you want to be different. You want to be in that 7% of special services. 93% of density is general density.
So embrace it. And you could still find your niche within general dentistry like you have Karl. But it’s still beauty of being a general dentist now. Dentistry is part of our lives. And, I like the bit in your book about taking control of your life and taking control of your destiny.
So I want to ask you, I mean, I have some thoughts on this about, in terms of how I’ve done it, but can you give us examples of you, Karl, in terms of how have you thoughtfully and proactively planned your life and force your destiny in a way that has gone?
[Karl]
So, I really don’t like goals. Okay. I hate goals. Goals are for sport, goals are for these finite games. Football, basketball, whatever you want to play. It’s where you’ve got a tangible goal. You’ve got to score a goal. You’ve got to get a certain number of wickets and cricket, whatever it is. You have a set goal, there’s a set finish line.
And that goal gets you over the finish line to get your achievement. And life dentistry is not like that. There is no finish line in this. Okay. Yeah. You might say when you die or you retire, is your finish line, but you’re not going to, there’s no end point. You don’t, nobody writes their net worth on their gravestone, you know, for instance, so you, oh, I want to earn this much money.
I want to do this, or I want to have this sort of practice, you know, having a set goal. I just don’t get it. I’ve tried setting goals and I just don’t get it. And it’s, yeah, great business and all these corporate people who want you to do goes fine. Great. Okay, go for that. But, you know, when I was starting out an implant then, right?
This goal, I’m going to set myself a goal at placing 50 implants a year. Great. Let’s do 50 implants here. Well, what does that mean? It is absolutely nothing because I could go around and place 50 implants into a piece of wood. Does that count? If I could, if I go to the Dominican Republic and place 50 implants into these jaws that are the size of tree trunks, does that count?
If I’m in the UK and I’m placing implants, am I doing things just so I can get my 50 implants? Am I sort of maybe providing treatment unethically just so I can get my implant count up to place 50 implants? What happens if I’m doing really well one year and everybody wants implants and I’ve placed 50 implants?
Wait. Yeah. And so I can slack off for the rest of the year now because I’ve done my 50. Great. Well, I’ll chill out and then in January I’ll start. Okay. And this whole sort of defined goal thing doesn’t make any sense to me. That is not to say you can go through like without direction. If you have to have some sort of vision, some sort of direction that you want, take it.
Otherwise, you are just standing still. You know, the one certainty in life is change. Change is constant. Which means if you are not improving yourself at all time, if you are standing still, you’re not standing still, you are getting worse because everything else is getting better around you. So you have to constantly refresh yourself.
You have to constantly improve your knowledge just to stay afloat in some senses. But, so you have to keep an eye on your direction and where you’re going and for me, let’s go back to the implant example. That was about not necessarily placing 50 implants a year, but to go, okay, well, I’m going to place an implant, I’m going to plan it meticulous.
Write down to what incision I’m going to make. You know what local anesthetic, which sites I’m putting my local anesthetic in where and every tiny little detail. I’m going to take photos throughout that whole case and I’m going to reflect on that case as well. And every reflect on every little detail. And when that case doesn’t turn out 100% perfect because, hey, listen, in 11 years of dentistry, I’ve never done anything perfectly.
There’s always something I could have done a little bit better in every case. When it doesn’t turn out perfect, I’m going to look back through those pictures. I’m going to look back through my notes. So I’m going to say, right, how could I have done that better? And if I’m just driven for going, oh, well, 50 implants, and once I’m placing 50 implants a year, I’ll be a success, then you’re not going to learn anything at all in that process.
It’s the process of how you get there and reflecting on that process and improving that process that will ultimately lead to you becoming a better dentist. You know, the goal doesn’t matter. The outcome doesn’t matter. You know, goals, when covid hit, you know, everybody’s goals went out the window because goals don’t account for global pandemics.
But if you focus on the process and your development and improving yourself day upon day, then the outcome, the goals that you would’ve set anywhere, you’ll smash them out the park because day upon day you are building yourself stronger.
[Jaz]
It’s the journey rather than destination.
[Karl]
Yeah. I mean it’s, there’s 1,000,001 cliches that we can throw around of that sort of nature.
But it is, it’s about taking the steps day in, day out to build yourself stronger rather than just focusing on that destination, that endpoint, because the destinations will sort itself out. If you’ve started taking the steps in the right direction, you know, lean your ladder against the right wall before you start climbing it.
Whatever you want. However you want to phrase it. It’s about giving yourself the direction and implementing the process. So for me, that’s not how many implants do I want to place next year, but it’s if I continue to do what I’m doing now, well, what’s my life going to look like in five years? What’s my life going to look like in 10 years?
Not in five years. I want to own my own practice and in five years I want to be placed in a hundred implants, or I want a do of doing 50 full large cases. No, no, no. It’s if I keep doing what I do in now, what’s my life going to look like? And if I don’t like what I see, and we go, okay, well what can I do to make that life in five years look a little bit better?
What can I do today that’s going to sow the seeds in the future? And the thing to get your head around here is there’s no immediate payoff. You don’t get this immediate gratification. We love within this world of instant gratification. You know, you put a post on social media and you go, oh great, I’ve got 10 likes, 20 likes, 30 likes.
It’s only been an hour. Oh, I’ve put a blog post out. Yeah. Like 200 people have led this blog. That’s amazing. I’ve got this podcast. And you know, we celebrate the fact that, oh, he got thousands of people. Listen, great. But it’s, what do you do each and every time to make it that little bit better, to add that little bit more value to the people who are reading, to the people who are listening to you, to your patients that you are caring for, and you build those foundations and the rest takes care of itself.
[Jaz]
I love everything you said, and I just want to highlight the four questions that you’ve written your book, a line to exactly this theme. And obviously you’ve covered two those already. So, what Karl talks about in the book is how we can take control of our destiny. And four questions to ask yourself is, if I keep doing what I’m doing, what will my life look like in 5, 10, 20 years?
Number two is how do I want my life to look in a year’s time? Number three is what do I currently do that I hate? That’s a really strong one. And lastly, what do I love doing and want to do more of? So, I mean to an example of how I have used those questions. Not recently, because I’ve very recently read the book, but going back, maybe 15, 18 months ago in my life, I’m just thinking.
I’m in a scenario now where I decided that question number three, what do I currently do that I hate? I got to a situation Karl, where I just didn’t enjoy my commutes anymore. Yes, I was listening to audiobooks and podcast stuff, but the commute was long and I didn’t enjoy the lack of time with my son because I’d leave super early to go to Oxford and then come back and by then my son might be asleep.
So I was really struggling with an internal battle about not having a time with my son. So now I have a three minute drive, but now I started walking, so it’s like a 15 minute walk. And I’ve adopted a shift pattern work, so I found somewhere that does shift pattern. So I work from eight till two or two till eight.
The net result of that is I get so much more time with my son, I get to do the podcasting, and I get to still work environment that allows me to grow. So that was one example of me deciding, okay, this is where I’m at, but I want to take, I want to steer my ship in a certain direction. So I would encourage everyone to get Karl’s book, read that bit and really just answer it yourself, reflect on that bit, and come up with how you are going to take charge of your own destiny rather than allowing life just happening to you.
[Karl]
Yeah. I mean, what you’ve also done there, which is that another, in the essence are a lot of what the book’s about is coming back to why are you doing what you do? Why are you driving 45 minutes an hour to work every day and then doing the same coming home? And what would you rather be doing?
You want to be with your son, you want to be with your family. Of course you do that. I mean, I’m a family guy. That’s, you know, you don’t have to need to start singing that. Thank you, but I I’ve always known, even before I had kids, that family was the most important thing to me. And I want to do everything I can so I can be the best dad, the best husband, the best family member that I can be.
And that involves making sure I spend enough time with my family. That means making sure that I do enough work to provide a stable lifestyle for my family as well. And you know, it’s about figuring out why you are doing each thing that you’re doing. And you go, okay, well why do I travel so far to work if I don’t need to do that.
What would I rather be doing? I’d rather be with my son. Right? What steps can I take to get myself in a position where I don’t have to travel? I could move closer to work or they could be work closer to me and you’ve built yourself this career, your skills, your persona. You know, you are well known in dentistry.
Everybody knows Jaz now. But you built yourself, you’ve built your own personal brand opp to such an extent there. You know, right now you could probably walk into a job near enough anywhere in the country if you wanted it.
[Jaz]
I doubt that very much, but I see what you mean. I appreciate that.
[Karl]
But, building your own skillset up and developing yourself personally and professionally gives you that freedom to go, you know what, actually I don’t want to travel so far to work anymore. Maybe a job closer to home. And I’ve laid the foundations to actually give myself the freedom to choose where I want to go. And that does make all the difference.
[Jaz]
I’m going to ask two more main questions before we take any direction we want. And Karl, the next question is, I love that you mentioned the book atomic Habits. It’s also I think you probably told me about it some months ago. Really great book. I’ve been actually thinking about and we should probably do this, Karl, about how we can apply atomic habits in dentistry, and that is with how we motivate our patients to, how we motivate our staff members to how we can grow as clinicians every day. I think we should do it, Karl. Let’s arrange-
[Karl]
Yeah, there’s definitely something there.
[Jaz]
Atomic habits in dentistry. I think we can do such a great job of that. But I want to just ask you as a little flavor for what’s come, can you gimme an example of how you’ve implemented the power of atomic habits, either in your personal life or at work, because I know you’ve discussed it in the book.
[Karl]
Yeah. I mean, atomic habits is one of the best books, the personal development books I’ve read. I mean, I’ve made about it before. The whole ethos, the whole thing around Atomic Habits is, making small incremental changes day on day. And those changes, if you can improve by 1% every day, that 1% compounds. And over the course of the year, you get a 3700% increase in your effectiveness, whatever that might be.
And the point of atomic habits is building those foundations. So one of the example that I use in the book is I was, I’d moved over to private practice and I’d been there for a year or two, and I thought, you know what, what I really need to do to take my dentistry to the next level is start using rubber dam for pretty much everything, everything possible.
And so one day I just decided, right, you know what? I’m going to implement this today, I’m going to start using rubber dam for every composite restoration. I was already doing it for root canal treatment. I was doing every inlay preparation if an inlay fit, you know, whatever was, I was going to use rubber dam for pretty much everything.
I could possibly have an excuse for using rubber dam for and you know, dental health check. Yeah. Should we use rubber dam for this ? But it was a case of, so mate, I could, that’s it. Flip switch. Okay, that’s what I’m going to do. You know, and yeah, it took me a while to get that rubber dam on at first because I wasn’t used to doing it as often.
And it took a while because the nurse had to get it all up. But when you engage your team, you say to your nurse, look, I think we’re going to do a better job for our patients if we use rubber dam because it’s going to stop all that amalgam stain all over their mouth. It’s going to stop all their saliva washing around this filling while we’re trying to seal it up. If we can do this, I think we’re going to do a much, much better job for the patient.
[Jaz]
And that’s also how you sell it to your patient as well.
[Karl]
Yeah, exactly. It is. And you engage your team with why you’re doing it. And you say this is what’s happening for now. We’re going to do this. And so my nurse know now every single time, every single patient, she’s got the rubber dam on ready for me because she knows if that rubber dam’s not on the side, I’m going to ask for it.
And she’s then going to have to go and get it. Okay. Because she’s already got the rubber dam out. It’s dead easy for me to then go, oh great. I’ve got the rubber dam that I’m going to use it. Everybody knows we’re on board. Okay, we’re going to implement this habit, we’re going to use rubber dam for everything.
And in fact, it’s more than just easy for me to use the rubber dam. I feel bad if I don’t use the rubber dam because my nurse has got to the trouble of getting the thing out. So I know if I don’t use that rubber dam now I’m going to get the look. And I’m going to get daggers because I’ve made her get it out for every patient and I’ve not used it, so it’s easier for me to use it and implement that habit.
[Jaz]
It’s a way of doing it accountability. And I’m the same. I use rubber dam for pretty much everything that I can. And the other example I can give to those listening and watching, in terms of an anatomic habit that you can create is those who are on the journey into dental photography and you’ve bought the stuff, but you’re just not in the habit of taking photos.
Well, don’t be that dentist who, when you’re ready to take a photo, you need to be like, okay, let’s get the mirror. Let’s heat the mirror now. Can you get the retractors out? You know, just has to walk out. Now you need to get your lens and attach it to your body, and then put the flash on. And then you’re thinking, oh crap, I forgot the settings.
Don’t be that dentist. Have the settings ready on, in laminated or set on the camera ready. Have everything attached already. Have the mirror on the heater, already. Have the retractors there, and have this pre-chat with your nurse first saying, Hey, you know what? I’m really serious about taking photos, and I want to do this as much as possible.
And then let’s start by doing an incremental change by every new patient will get photos and then build up from there. And then every composite will get photos. And then you’ll build and build and build. So that’s another implementation of atomic habit. So I’m so glad you mentioned that in the book.
And then now I want to move on to, because I want to do a whole episode with you about incremental changes we can make atomic habits apply to dentistry. I’m so excited for that.
[Karl]
We’ll come back to that one.
[Jaz]
I took, yeah, we’ll come back to that one. And I want to talk about a really, I’ve saved the best for us because something that, I’m really, really keen for you to explore further is the support of charity from this book and in particular, a very, very, I mean, they’re all charities are important, but this is such a key charity. I met Jeremy Cooper at the BACD and I said to him, look, I want to do what I can, what Protrusive, to raise a bar and let everyone know that ConfiDental exists. So please tell us about why you chose ConfiDental and then, tell us about, you and your wife and how, you know, you are taking a direction in terms of helping people with helping dentists with their mental health.
[Karl]
Yeah, my mental health generally, okay, so I’ve never been formally diagnosed with anything, okay. But I have these periods of highs and lows, so almost like a very mild form of like manic depression. It sounds really dramatic, which Oh God, manic depression. Oh. But that’s sort of how it goes.
And it ebbs and flows. And sometimes I can take a long time for a while and then I’ll have like a manic phase and then a low phase. A GP friend of mine sort of said it sounds a bit like what we call cyclothymia, which is like a mild manic depression. And I started reading up about it. I was like, eh, it kind of does sound a bit like me, really.
It’s almost like it’s cyclical up and down. Call it my mom, period. Sometimes it’s, you know, sort of hits me like a hormonal imbalance every couple of months. And I just dip and I probably just offended 50% of your listeners. But, yeah, so mental health has always been something that I’ve had on my radar and my Yorkshire last. My wife, she’s a psychotherapist and so she’s a counselor, so she’s dealing with-
[Jaz]
I had this burning raise to know this right now, because I have a patient who’s a psychotherapist and I have a patient who’s a psychiatrist. I know psychiatry needs medicine first. And basically they just give you drugs. What is a psychotherapist like? How does that differ?
[Karl]
Alright. There’s lots of different types of psychotherapists, but yeah. Psychiatry is a doctor, a medical doctor, you know, one of the proper doctors, not as fake doctors. A proper doctor who has then gone and done psychology, additional psychological training to become a psychiatrist.
Okay. A psychotherapist or a counselor is, so in my wife’s case, she did a degree in psychology and then she did a postgraduate master’s level diploma in counseling and psychotherapy. Now there’s a whole scale of different qualifications you can get as a psychotherapist from doing a weekend course or going right the way to doing a master’s degree and beyond.
Yeah. So that was my wife’s path. She did psychology and then she went on and did counseling, psychotherapy. And again, as there are different schools of thought with occlusion, there are different schools of thought within psychotherapy. So you have, Freudian Type psychotherapy.
You have, legend Carl Rogers, which is person-centered psychotherapy, which is sort of what my life’s original training was in the fundamental principle being, you know, nobody’s born evil, everybody’s born equal.
You don’t blame the person, the perpetrator of whatever it is. Or you don’t blame the person for having said feelings or phone things that, you know, it’s a consequence of the things that have happened to them and all of this which is one school of thought appropriate for helping some people.
There’s things like transactional analysis and all these different areas of psychotherapy. But yeah, Melissa’s training sort of originated in person-centered psychotherapy. But this sort of combination of me having these ups and downs and actually being quite open and free to talk about it because it’s something my wife and I talk about all the time we deal with all the time because of her line of work and in the middle of last year when Covid had hit and everybody was going, oh, it’s okay to not be okay.
And all of this was bouncing around the social sphere and everybody said, oh, it’s okay to not be okay. And then you go, well, everybody’s saying this, but no one’s actually saying they’re not okay. I was getting a bit, I was getting a bity. It was like, you know, everybody’s saying it’s okay to not be okay.
And maybe somebody reading that hashtag somewhere goes, okay, well actually I’m going to talk to my friend about this now. And that’s great. You know, you don’t have to do what I did, which is when you enter a particularly low dip, you write about it, you take a stupid photograph of yourself, and then you post a blog about it on Facebook, which is what I did.
And showing everything, look, this is what it looks like when I’m feeling down. Okay. And you cry and you’re upset, and you’re down and you’re hurt, and a lot of the time, for me it’s often a feeling of complete apathy, a complete sort of devoid of any emotions. And, you know, I’m going to put this out there because what people often in that situation do, is go, Hey, I’m great guys.
Come on, let’s go. And you beat yourself up and you get yourself back out there and you put this brave face on, and then you go home and cry yourself to sleep. And you go, right, well, this isn’t good. This isn’t right. This isn’t healthy. And what I realized was actually this cycle that I was in, I’m able to do something about it.
And I’m not saying everybody can, you know, there’s a whole myriad of mental health conditions that, you know, we’ve got to be aware of. But I realized there was this pattern to it. And, it almost for me was a case of a tick along. Okay. And I’d get quite busy and then I’d go, go, go, go, go.
And I’d basically burn myself out and have a mini burnout. Everything had shut down. I’d find it really hard to get outta bed. I’d find it really hard to get myself motivated to do anything. And then after a few days, my body would go right. We’ve hit reset. Now go again, but don’t do that again, Karl.
That was very naughty, and I realized, I sort of through my reflection, my personal reflection log, my journaling and things like this, I did, I sort of started to see this pattern and this, these conversations with my wife that I was having, I was thinking, you know what? I can do something about this.
So now when I’m getting to those points of seeing myself enter this little mania phase, right, stop, slow yourself down. And most of the time I can stop myself getting into that.
[Jaz]
Well done.
[Karl]
Now, well, yeah. But-
[Jaz]
I mean, I just want to just pause and say like, thank you for sharing this and putting yourself in a very vulnerable position.
And I’m sure everyone who’s listening on their commutes have just taken a moment and maybe just gone, whoa. Like to what you said, and I really respect that you’re sharing this with everyone because I think it needs to be heard. And thank you for telling us about your very real experiences and then from there stems this desire to help other dentists, as you’re going to say in terms of through ConfiDental. I mean, is that a service that you used before or is that?
[Karl]
So yeah, so let’s get back to the point, Karl. The point is, yeah. You know, not if I don’t say this, who’s going to? If somebody what I’d consider a relatively mild form of all of this going on, who talks about mental health things all the time at home with his wife and is married to a psychotherapist, somebody who can help people like this and who regularly helps people like this.
If I can’t talk about it, who’s going to, and maybe if I can talk about, then somebody else will have the strength and the confidence to come out and say, you know what, actually I’ve been struggling a bit and you know, you’re not going to shout this from Facebook or whatever the you want to do, you might go and talk to your wife, you might go and talk to your mom, your dad, your cousin, your friend, whoever it might be.
That talking helps. And for some people who don’t feel that they can talk to anyone or they’ve tried talking to people, because you know, I’m so, so lucky that I’m married to Marisa because Marisa knows exactly how to respond when somebody’s struggling. And when I say to Lisa, oh look, I’m really struggling ’em, she goes, okay, tell me more.
No judgment, no advice, no nothing. She just listens. And I mean, that’s invaluable. And what ConfiDental have set up this charity, they’ve set up this helpline. So you just phone it and you can just talk to someone and they listen and they’re there for-
[Jaz]
They don’t take any names, any GC numbers, or this is just there at the end the phone to speak to someone. They don’t even know your want to know your name or unless you want to relieve it, reel it or whatever. They’re just there to help you in a difficult situation.
[Karl]
I mean, exactly it. And they’re just there to support and they’re dentists who are volunteered and they’re just there to support you through whatever it is.
And you know, I was speaking with John Lewis, one of the founders of ConfiDental and you saying, you know, a lot of the time people are calling up about issues with patients, about concerns over the GDC about and those are our people calling about just the overwhelming sensation of an inability to cope with life.
And that gets people as well. Some people suffer with depression. Some people suffer with anxiety. Some people it’s imposter syndrome. There are all of these things. Some people it’s PTSD, you know? Traumatic experiences. And that can be a car crash, that can be witnessing a cardiac arrest in practice.
You know, it can have a profound effect on you. It could be somebody suing you and going through legal proceedings, that’s traumatic. And so ConfiDental has been set up to help dentists and dental professionals who need somebody to reach out to, to talk to. They don’t know where to turn.
As I say, I’ve been so lucky. I’ve never had to bring ConfiDental myself, but I’m married to a psychotherapist. I know I can say anything to Marisa and she will listen and not judge me. And you know what? That’s what you need. Sometimes you just need someone to go, oh, okay. Yeah. Jaz, that sounds like you’re having a really hard time.
Tell me more about it. And that’s what ConfiDental do. And, you know, in terms of signposting them ConfDental, you know, you’re going to put the website in the show notes. I know you’re going to put phone number in the show notes, but of course the phone number, phone number for anybody you, who is thinking, you know what, I need someone to talk to right now. It’s 0 3 3 9 8 7 5 1 5. There it is.
[Jaz]
That number again is?
[Karl]
0 3 3 9 8 7 5 1 5 8. But yeah, it’s there. It’s there. And the book that I’ve written is there to inspire some love for dentistry, inspire some passion for dentistry, but I don’t want it to be one of these toxic positivity things that come in.
I said, hey, look how fantastic this career is. You know, we should all love it all the time, because that’s not real. So there’s a whole chapter in there dedicated to mental health.
And that chapter’s got a lot of stuff about my story in there, about how I experience it. That’s not how anybody else experiences, it’s just how I experience it.
And it’s got a lot of stuff in about other mental health conditions, you know, some stuff. You know, small steps we can take, you know, there’s no single cure, we’re not completely powerless to this where there are things we can do to help ourselves. And there’s a lot of stuff in that chapter from my wife, from Marisa as well, you know, because I’m just a guy who gets down sometimes.
She deals with this stuff all the time. Yeah. And she’ll kill me for saying this, but she’s the expert on this. She really knows what she’s talking about. And there’s a lot of stuff in the book from her that I think will be immensely useful. Both to anybody who’s struggling with mental health issues or concerns.
They have, you know, you might not want em to lay yourself, have a mental health issue. You might just have concerns over your mental health. But it’ll, it’s immensely useful to anybody like that or anybody who’s in contact with anybody who’s struggling, anybody who, maybe your nurse is having a really hard time for one reason or another, and she comes to say, listen, Jaz, I’m really sorry.
I just, and then the eyes fill up and I just don’t, I’m really struggling. I don’t know what to do. And on having some level of understanding about what that’s all about and about how you can help somebody, I think’s really powerful. And so there’s a lot of that in the book as well.
And as you said, all the proceeds from the book, all the profits and everything is going to go to support ConfiDental. So it’s sort of all going to feed background to yourself. I hope you read the book and you’re less likely to need ConfiDental, but for those people who need it, any or every sale of the book, all the profits are going to go to confidential as well. And that’s-
[Jaz]
I would love you all listening, watching to show Karl support because he covers things such a beautiful way. And Ivan it is actually a really good writer. I know you don’t like to admit it. And you mentioned a few bits about your GCSE experience and whatnot, but you actually I do enjoy reading your blogs and you actually have got away with words.
So it’s great. And you made me laugh a few times as well. Actually, I’ll will put that in there for you. So, thank you. And thank you for making yourself vulnerable, Karl, on this podcast. I really appreciate that from the bottom of my heart. Thank you. And I think it’s going to help a lot of people.
I remember recording the episode with Emma Courtney. Hi Emma. Hope you’re well in New Zealand. She’s a fellow Protruserati and, we talked about burnout and her experiences and like some of the messages Karl, I got after that episode, like this, this lady messaged me saying I had to just stop my car, park my car somewhere.
And I just had a cry because everything that Emma was saying was just describing her own experiences. And at that point, she realized, hang on a minute, I’m burning out. So if you are someone who’s really been emotionally affected by this episode, and I hope that can only be in a good way in terms of okay, we can identify who can help you, then please do make use of a ConfiDental, and I hope that this episode will be a stepping stone in the right direction for you.
And if you could consider buying Carl’s book to read more and reignite your passion, and to anyone who wants to support ConfiDental in a way through buying this book, even if it’s for a young dentist that you know, and you want to inspire them, please do so. Karl, thank you so much for giving your enthusiasm, your stories and your motivational words, and for making yourself vulnerable. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
[Karl]
No, I mean, it’s okay to talk, but then people need to actually talk to make it okay to talk. And so, hey, there we go. I talked. I talked. So, yeah. I’m hoping the book is going to be out, at the start of 2022.
[Jaz]
And did you ever name, we keep calling it the book, but we don’t have a name yet.
[Karl]
Yeah. So the book, I’m pretty sure, I’m pretty sure the book is going to be called In the Loupe. Loupe as in-
[Jaz]
In the Loupe. Ah, I like it. So I like it.
[Karl]
Yeah. So I have a sucker for a player of words like you, with the Bit Between your Teeth. But, you know, in staying in the loupe, the secrets to build in yourself are a fulfilling career as a dentist, finding a passion for dentistry.
[Jaz]
I love it.
[Karl]
So anybody who wants to find out more, obviously sign up for updates about the book can go onto my Instagram, my Facebook, or on my website, my website, walkerfinch.com, or one word walkerfinch.com. And you can sign up on there, to get updates about the book.
[Jaz]
And read the blog post as well. They will keep you entertained and you get an idea of the reading style and what’s to come from the book.
[Karl]
Yeah. So I put a blog out once a week. Sometimes they’re short, sometimes they’re slightly less short, but yeah, no, it’s good to just get out there and hopefully, hopefully inspire a few more people just to think a bit more and reflect on what they’re doing and how they can build their own, you know, passion and each day and build it all a little bit stronger.
[Jaz]
Atomic Habits, my friend, atomic Habits, we have to do that episode. So I will be in touch. Yes, let’s get a date in the diary to do Atomic Habits as applied to clinical dentistry. We’ll maybe cover some big themes, some small themes. That’s going to be a really fun episode as well. Karl, thank you so much once again.
[Karl]
Thank you.
Jaz’s Outro:Well, there we have it, guys, thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. Look, if you like the themes here and if you want to get a book or you want to get the book to gift it to a dentist that you know, who just needs to hear everything that we discuss and wants to have a paperback book that they can sort of follow along with and do some bedside reading that’s really going to work on their mindset, then check out In the Loupe.
I’ll put it in the show notes below. And of course, as always, don’t forget to rate the podcast on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen to. Thanks again, Karl. We appreciate you coming on. And for everyone else, I’ll catch you same time, same place next week.
‘Doing’ Social Media is HARD work!’ Do you find it difficult to make time for this?
Do you worry about professionalism and ethics on social media? How about the blurred boundaries between professional and personal life?
Dentistry is no exception to the trend of using social media in today’s culture. Dentists are using social media to connect with their patients and create new opportunities for patient education. However, dentists face ethical challenges such as how to best communicate with patients online, and what is the best level of consent to get from patients when we post their photos and videos?
In this episode, Dr. Alessandro Devigus also suggests how to use social media as a business tool and how to keep your personal life and professional life separate.
https://youtu.be/TEBmlDlybLECheck out this full episode hereDownload Protrusive App on iOS and Android and Claim your Verifiable CPD/CE by answering a few questions + You can get EARLY ACCESS to the episode + EXCLUSIVE content
“React and interact with your audience how they WANT you to see” – Dr. Alessandro Devigus
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this episode:
- 1:19 Dr. Alessandro Devigus’ Introduction
- 4:20 How Dr. Alessandro started on Social Media
- 6:30 Drawing the line between personal and professional account
- 9:41 Importance of having a social media for Dental practices
- 14:38 Dentists posting full protocol cases on social media – good or bad?
- 20:14 Spotting fake dentistry
- 24:57 Making time for social media
- 31:59 Consent from Patients for sharing their photos – how to do it?
If you enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy Personal Branding for Dentists, Logos, and Websites with Shaz Memon
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: You don't need me to tell you that SOCIAL MEDIA is absolutely huge in all of our lives. If you're listening to this, I'm sure you're involved in social media in some way or another.Jaz’s Introduction:It’s NO EXCEPTION for dentistry, but this creates new problems and dilemmas, new ethical dilemmas for us dentists. How do we best communicate with patients online, and what is the best level of consent to get to patients when we are posting their photos and videos?
And where exactly do you DRAW THE LINE between PERSONAL and PROFESSIONAL? These are the burning questions we cover with Dr. Alessandro Devigus, who not only has a huge following on social media, but he’s such a level-headed guy as an extremely experienced, successful clinician. One of the topics we discussed, which you may resonate with Protruserati is HOW to MAKE TIME for SOCIAL MEDIA.
Many of you are struggling to find the opportunity throughout your busy lives to actually have a presence online. And so when I ask this to Alessandro, he had a really good answer, and it involves doing a bit of work, a bit of an audit of your time. So that’s something we cover towards the middle and end of the episode.
Hello, Protruserati. I’m Jaz Gulati. Welcome back to an Interference Cast. This is like a nonclinical interruption. If you’re new to the show, then thanks for joining. Do check out all the other episodes. Mostly a lot of ’em are clinical and they’re very geeky, and I get very excited about teeth and dentistry, and hopefully that gets passed onto you. But we talk about some varied themes. So hope you enjoy this episode with Dr. Alessandro Devigus and I’ll catch you in the outro.
Main Episode:Alessandro. So I know this podcast we’re recording today is about social media, but we must know what is your secret to looking so youthful?
[Alessandro]
It’s my wife. I’m married for 33 years, so happy wife, happy life.
[Jaz]
Happy wife, happy life, and somehow good skin.
[Alessandro]
Yeah and it’s my Sardinian roots. So, Sardinia is known for people getting very old. So my father is now almost 90. There are a lot of people there. And I think the number one secret of getting old and looking good is reduce stress.
[Jaz]
Mm-hmm.
[Alessandro]
Stress is the one or the number one thing making you older quicker, let’s say, mentally, physically with all aspects this is from my point of view. It’s not that I’m a super healthy food eater doing sports every day. I don’t smoke. I drink alcohol, but I don’t smoke. I think smoking is one of the number one. Things all smokers always tell me, yeah, but you drink red wine and whiskey. Say, okay, but I don’t drink bottles a day.
So I think I have under control not to drink too much, and yeah, and again, having a good family, a good social network that helps you if whenever there’s an issue. I think these are the key elements creating this, and in this atmosphere or in this context. I think you show, or you look younger to the other people. Although you are not young, you know what I mean? So, it’s-
[Jaz]
Mm-hmm.
[Alessandro]
Maybe you have seen this also with patients. Some patients they come, and they are 40 and they’re saying, oh, life is awful and blah, blah, and then they look and feel and express being much older-
[Jaz]
And tired.
[Alessandro]
Yes. And then you see 85 year old guys, not walking straight, but smiling and are being happy. And then you feel the spirit. You feel the youth coming out and they say, okay, maybe tomorrow it’s over, but I will enjoy my life. Life is too short not to enjoy it. So this is a very important point, I think.
[Jaz]
For those guys listening. Alessandro sounds great for those watching. He looks great as well. You have to take my word for it. And if you don’t already watch the episodes, you can catch him on YouTube and Instagram, whatnot. Just remind everyone, you came on the photography episode, and you talk a little bit about your roots, your interest in photography.
Today we’re talking about social media. And I mean this in the most kindest way possible, Alessandro, right? I just told you, you look great for 60. Okay. Most of the six-year-old dentists I know they steer well away from social media, yet you are blossoming on social media. What you do on social media, I don’t see many of this doing.
You are wonderful at social media. So, tell me about how you got into. Just the habits that you have on social media, your presence on social media and I mean, again, I mean this in a nice way despite your colleagues who maybe your age have probably don’t even have an Instagram account. So, tell me about that.
[Alessandro]
So basically, I restarted my social media career three years ago. So I was on social media when everything started because I’m a computer geek. So I was one of the first Twitter user. I was in immediately on Facebook, on all these channels, but then realized that I made a big mistake.
And this is something, let’s say the first important message goes out to everyone, young, old, whatever, women voice man. Don’t mix your social media and your private life. So be aware you can have a private account whereas a young girl, who show bikini photos of yourself, or as a young man pumping in the gym, that’s fine.
I’m not against this, but don’t mix these accounts with something that you want to be professional. So if you have an account for your dental office, don’t show yourself too much in your private life driving your Porsche or whatever because this creates a wrong image. Even if you have achieved something in your life, making it possible to buy a Rolex or all these gimmicks that people think, wow, if I have a Rolex, if I have a Porsche, I’m a bigger, I’m more important.
But if you feel doing this or wear expensive clothes, don’t show that to your clients. It’s like my brother, he has like four Ferraris. He would never take a Ferrari driving to a client, never. You know, then you take your normal car, you dress yourself like you have to in a business suit or in your office. So react and interact with your audience how they also want you to see and this is the number one message of how to start or how to think about starting your social media career.
[Jaz]
Alessandro, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. What about, I’m gonna play devil’s advocate. What about the situation whereby like I, myself, I do this whereby, I post a dental stuff on my, not Protrusive Dental, but on Jazzy Gulati, I post a Teethy stuff.
But now, and again, I have family because for me, family is one of the highest values. And what I think that does is it humanizes me. So when prospective patients come say, oh, he’s a father, he’s a husband, I want to go to a family man. Do you think that’s okay? Showing your children, showing yourself not necessarily in bikini and whatnot, not necessarily luxurious, but in a family environment or, I like football, Mans Tonight, cricket. What about those things teach us about.
[Alessandro]
Yes, I think this is important to show yourself then it’s your decision in what extent you want to integrate your family. I always tell people, look, have you asked your children if they want to be on social media? Do you have the written consent of your three-year-old boy or girl jumping around, making a fool on your Instagram account?
So these are the points. I think it’s important to show people that you are a father, that you have a family. You can share these facts in short things, but don’t overdo it. Don’t overdo it. What I do is this is something important. From time to time, I do a new story. Talking about who I am. So I tell people, look for all those, for the new followers, for all people not knowing me.
My name is Alessandro Devigus. I’m a Swiss dentist with passion for digital technologies and I want to share this and this and this and that, and that and that with you. And so it’s like a refreshment on people not knowing who I am. You cannot expect that over, because social media is very short life information, so from time to time you have to repeat, and I agree with you that you can integrate your family, but your family has to agree on that.
So this is an important point. Just don’t, just take your smartphone, shoot the videos and post them. And then after that, your wife might say, ‘Hey, come on. What the hell are you doing?’ You know. So I think this is important that it’s in agreement. And again, be also aware that your children might in some years say, ‘Hey, Dad what the heck did you catch me when I was falling down the clip? And now it’s there and my colleagues are sharing this video, showing me this video of me failing.’ So be careful. Be aware of all these facts. But again, I agree. Show your audience. Show your clients. Show your patients that you are married, that you have children.
[Jaz]
That you’re human.
[Alessandro]
Yes. That you’re a human. Yeah, absolutely. But don’t overdo it. Do it on a regular base, but not every day. So let’s say 5%. 5% or max 10% should be personal stuff and the rest should be professional stuff.
[Jaz]
And that’s different to your other personal account, which you may have, which could be private, for example. And that’s where you could just do expression of yourself as an individual rather than you, the dentist who’s now speaking to patients all along which is great advice, I think. And that’s really good. Let’s switch gears a little bit to the main first question I wanted to ask on this episode, which, and we kind of touched on it already, is that we are at a stage now where I would say 99% of general practices have got some sort of a website.
Not all of them are good. Yeah, I know some practices who don’t even have a website at the moment, still to this day. Okay. And then fine, but most of them do. But a lesser percentage has social media. Now, one thing I truly believe in over the last year or so is like with Protrusive Dental, social media. I don’t do much on Twitter.
Okay. And actually, I’m thinking that I’m not gonna do much on Twitter because it is just, I don’t resonate with it as much. And I truly believe now that if you’re gonna have a social media, then do it properly. There’s no point in having a social media and doing one post a year on that account, because someone else might come on and check the Twitter and be like, oh, this isn’t very active, this isn’t very good.
And then be like, oh, this is not representation of that brand. So one mantra I follow is that if you’re gonna commit to having a Twitter, do it properly. If you’re gonna commit to having Instagram, do it properly rather than just having it for the sake of having it. So where do you see social media for practices who have websites and then maybe for them to get to a social media presence now is too much of a big step. What would you say to that dentist listening now who hasn’t embraced social media yet?
[Alessandro]
Basically there, there’s some research and dentists are also visual. Let’s say visual people. So what we are doing, what we are communicating is our patients want to look better. So they want to change something. They have problems we solve.
So it’s a visual thing. So Twitter for sure is not the right channel to interact with your patients. Then we have like in Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook, there are others like Snapchat and WhatsApp. WhatsApp is almost an underrated social media tool that you can integrate also in your marketing campaign interacting with patient.
But be careful with communicating with your patient on all these channels. Watch out for the legal issues. So I tell dentist, don’t share too much information via smartphone with your patients. There you should use safe channel. Safer channels. So a patient might send you an image of a broken tooth, that’s okay, because he sent it, it’s his information.
If I took a pic, if I take a picture of myself and share it, it’s my problem. But you as a dentist, you cannot just take pictures or receive images and share them with others without asking the permission of the patient doing so. So this is the side effect coming back, I would say today, you should focus on Instagram.
If you are a younger generation dentist who wants to fool yourself a little bit and you have a young team that also wants to dance, TikTok might be an alternative. I’m not so much into TikTok. I tried doing so, and I found that what works on Instagram doesn’t really work on TikTok, so my main focus is on Instagram because what I found out, Facebook still is the largest community.
But not really engaging. So you easily , I call it and we discussed it already for me. Facebook is the happy birthday platform. If somebody says, oh, it’s my birthday today, then you get wow, hundreds of comments. If you post some valuable content, nobody interacts.
So this is the situation. Facebook is great if you want to promote your office with advertisment because you have 2.5 billion people. It’s easy. And it’s interesting if we have done some research, there are more dentists having a Facebook page than having an Instagram account or other social media.
So in the dental community, if you ask them, number one is I have a Facebook account because at the end it’s also mandatory to have one if you want to have an Instagram account. But still the dental community or the medical community is still number one on Facebook not being really active. This reflects also the average age.
The dental community is getting older and Instagram is like, oh, I have an Instagram account, but I don’t know where to start. So the thing that I felt browsing over the last two, three years, many dental accounts is. I would say 90% have no plan.
[Jaz]
I agree Alessandro and one observation I’ve made, and something I spoke about in a little mini webinar that the BDA did recently to young dentists about social media is, and please tell me if you agree or disagree with me, is that I want dentists to decide who their account is for.
Is it for dentists or is it for patients? Because a lot of the time dentists are posting up shots that only a dentist would appreciate and labeling perikymata, et cetera. Whereas a patient would be like, what the hell’s going on? Whereas patients wanna see full faces and other types of videos, which the dental community may not engage with as much.
Basically, they still would. So would you agree that, you know, as a dentist or dentist office, you need to first cite, okay, are you actually making content purpose-built for patients and the public or other dentists and you wanna show them your line angles, et cetera. Would you agree with that?
[Alessandro]
Absolutely. And this is one big mistake a lot are doing. They want to do both on one account and this doesn’t work.
[Jaz]
And some do, but there’s they’re few and far between. And you alienate the one or the other sometimes.
[Alessandro]
But if you look at the successful accounts, they’re not really showing. Nobody shows blood images because patients don’t want to see any blood, any that a dentist might even like, but the patients don’t. But what, I also must say this before and after, before and after, before and after thing gets a little bit tiring. Some patients might jump on this, but you see also on this more successful account that they’re mixing more and more personal stuff with this.
So they do less before and after. And show more behind the scenes what services they are offering, showing up themselves. So this is the thing, because I had an interesting discussion in life with Miguel Ortiz, dentist from Boston about all the fake dentistry we are seeing on social media.
And nobody cares. Nobody cares. Not even the dental community. They give likes to photoshopped images and it’s amazing. It’s amazing how uncritical the audience is towards the information posted on social media. But again, I agree and this is an important information and message to the dentist out there.
You have to decide, is my account for my patients and potential new clients, or do I want to share how cool I am or not even how cool I am. I think I have to share my knowledge with the community but then please share the knowledge before and after is not sharing any knowledge and what I have experienced over the last three years. I have posted thousands of comments asking, can you please share more details on this case? You don’t get any answers. What does this mean? They know that they’re a fake.
[Jaz]
Okay. I mean, I think it’s a platform issue as well.
[Alessandro]
Or is it an arrogance? I don’t know because it’s called social media for a reason, and I see that especially the dental community is missing out being social on social media. If you post, then you have to be ready to answer questions. Otherwise, turn off the comments. You can turn off comments in your post. So then if I look at the picture and I seek, there’s no way to post a comment. So the person who posted this image or this video doesn’t want any interaction.
But if you post and anybody is able to post a comment, then please, please, and this is a message and I want to everybody to listen to this. If I ask you a question, I want an answer. I tell people, if you don’t ask questions, you will never get answers, but I have to modify this. If you ask questions on social media, it’s most likely that you don’t get an answer.
And this is sad for me. This is really sad. If we don’t communicate, if we don’t talk to each other, we will not grow. I don’t learn from a cool before and after a while I say, wow, I will never be able doing this. I want to learn. And if I ask a question, you can answer, I don’t answer this question, but please give me an answer. And I always ask in a polite way, you know.
[Jaz]I have seen that and I can vouch for that and I think I personally think Alessandro, while we’re talking about it, could be a difference, innate difference between Instagram and Facebook. So firstly, I agree with you that the reach is different when I share a video.
I did share a video the other week about this cool suction tool about cleaning crowns. It got 1700 views on Instagram and 201 on Facebook. So I definitely agree with you in terms of how content and media is consumed and reached on the different platforms. But there may be a difference. So when, sometimes when I share full protocol cases, A) Instagram only limits me to 10 images and I can’t individually caption each image. Whereas on Facebook, I can post the entire series of 125 step by step, and under each image I can write a caption.
So I do feel as though that these are fundamental differences and it becomes more difficult. However, I do agree that when someone asks a question, it’s good for engagement. It’s good to grow our community of practice by answering questions, and I do feel that Facebook sometimes does this better, and I think that’s something for us to learn and grow from. I think overall, taking a step back, I have learned so much from social media in terms of dentistry.
It’s actually amazing, I think. Are you used to say more from Facebook than Instagram, but nowadays, I think from Instagram as well. I think there’s so much to learn, but you’re right, we should maybe be a little bit more critical of the stuff we see and too fair. I don’t even consider. When I see photos on Instagram, is it been Photoshop or not maybe it’s just me being rose tinted glasses or whatever. Any ideas on how to spot a fake?
[Alessandro]
I think if you are a decent dentist, you immediately see that papillas cannot grow, that something looks too perfect than nature.
And I have to tell you. Maybe you can see some veneer cases that have done that really look like nature. But if you go close, then there are only a few things that are really perfect and the larger the things get, the more you see that it’s not nature. But the thing is that most people don’t want to see it.
It’s like going to Cirque du Soleil, you know that you are in a Dream World and for two hours you go and watch the show and dream on, let your mind flow. And I think too much people are consuming social media that way. Again, they’re not critical. They’re giving likes for things. I sometimes also scroll the feed and then double tap, and then I go back and say, no, no, I don’t like this. I don’t like this. So then I remove my like, you know what I mean? And people-
[Jaz]
Because the algorithm responds, it’ll show you more of what you like in the future, which is-
[Alessandro]
Or people tagging you and then you feel like forced giving a comment. And now I’m really starting to sometimes also being critical, but again, always in a polite way to start interaction.
And what I get sometimes that I get a direct message telling me, why are you so critical? Why are you posting negative comments? Say, no, this was not a negative comment. If I ask you a question, why have you selected this material? This is far off by being negative.
[Jaz]
It’s gonna help to, for everyone to grow and learn and share.
[Alessandro]
I want to start the discussion, and again, a lot of people are afraid of starting discussions on social media.
[Jaz]
Again, I do think Facebook lends itself better to discussion. That’s how I feel.
[Alessandro]
Yes. And that’s also why you see a lot of Instagram accounts of dental Instagram accounts are still private.
[Jaz]
Mm-hmm.
[Alessandro]
They are still hiding themselves because two reasons. They don’t have a strategy, so they look at other feeds and see, ‘Oh, my feed looks strange.’ Or don’t know what’s wrong. So they keep it private or they are afraid of entering the discussion. So these are the two points, and I always tell people, ‘Hey, come on, show yourself.’ I want to see what you’re posting. I cannot follow everybody who is private, just to see what’s behind the account. If it’s just a private account, showing family picture or is it, and this is coming back, the importance also of how you show, how you present your account on Instagram. The importance of the, of your profile page, of your bio that you write there, who you are, what you’re doing, what your goals are, and then try to be consistent in your feet.
And so I’ve personally, for example, also started reposting pictures of others dental photography. So, reposting artistic photographers, especially from people from South America that they’re great in doing all this artwork. I don’t know where they find all the time to do so. And then I say, okay, if I just repost clinical images or let’s say artistic images or try doing artistic images myself, I’m one of a million. You know what I mean?
[Jaz]
Mm-hmm.
[Alessandro]
So it’s nothing special. So then I started, okay, why not share my knowledge with the audience? And this is then finding this is then the topic, finding your niche. So what you want to share, what you like sharing with others. And I think this is the way to go on your social media if you want to show yourself as a dentist, as a private person, so on.
And again, coming back this is then one, one thing, and the other thing is showing your office, showing what you are doing, showing what you are, offering your services, et cetera. Two, be like the window, the showcase of your office attracting potential clients.
[Jaz]
Absolutely. It should be an extension of you. It should be a projection of you and your values. I totally agree that. I remember being in a lecture in 2014 of some dental marketing expert, but there’s a group of dentists in the audience. So this was like eight years ago. And I remember the biggest objection that my colleagues, which are, who are mostly my senior at that stage, of my career, were saying that, where do you find the time?
I don’t have time, you know, amongst children, clinical dentistry, life, and everything that happens. Where do you find the time to post? So what would you say to that dentist who has this as their number one objection? How can they magically find the time?
[Alessandro]
Just check, start checking your agenda. And then it’s like, uh, if if somebody tells me I don’t have time, then I ask him, okay, for one week, write down what you’re doing when. So when are you getting up? What’s the first thing you’re doing? What’s the second thing? And just write down how your days are going, and then you might see, ah, in the morning, I’m just sitting 30 minutes on the toilet. Maybe if you take that much on the toilet, use this time to do something.
You spend 30 minutes drinking coffee. Or whatever, or in my dental office, I have the routines. Most of the dentists then say, okay, from eight to five I’m totally blocked, and after that I have some time. But if you then after analyzing your schedule, still realize that you don’t have time, then it’s mandatory to look for professional support in the sense, look for a coach, for a social media manager that helps you.
If you still want to present yourself or your dental office. And this makes totally sense because if you then calculate, you should cut off two hours a day from your dental schedule to become a social media manager yourself. This doesn’t make sense, and this is way, way too expensive.
Your fee, or at least the loss of working hours over the whole year is worth thousands of pounds or dollars or Swiss Francs or whatever. And if you calculate this, I agree, and this is why, I don’t know why not more dentists are coming to me. I’m offering these services.
I have some people behind me helping me with producing content or giving me ideas. There are some tools you can use. By the way, I’m now setting up like a mini course that will be free, how to start with all this, but it ends up-
[Jaz]
Amazing.
[Alessandro]
It ends up with a decision, okay, I have the time to do it myself or with some members of my team, or I don’t have the time, and then don’t wait too long. Then get in touch with me or other people who are offering services, coaching services.
So I have some dental practices I’m coaching, and we have a coach, a call once a week to discuss what are the next steps, what can be improved. And then you find so many small things that are not working. And at the end it’s slowly the engine starts running and then you’ll get happy and don’t spend, don’t do anything that you don’t like to do. So if you feel forced being a content creator on social media, then stop doing this and look for professional help.
[Jaz]
I think that’s great advice and I’m glad you mentioned about how to get more help. Ie reach out to you. Is it @dentist.Camera that you wanted them to reach out or where is the best way?
[Alessandro]
Best way is my Instagram account and maybe I’m allowed to do a small advertisement at this stage.
[Jaz]
Please. No, please. I insist you’ve helped me so much. Please do. And reach out to Alessandro and learn more about this and his website’s wonderful. He’s all, everything he set up is just wonderful.
I know he’s got a team behind him and actually I’ve got a team behind me as well. So a lot of people me messaging me saying ‘Jaz, how do you find the time?’ Leverage, you know, I needed a team. I want to be a father; I want to be a dentist. I can’t spend my whole life in front of a screen. So you have to then get other people involved in your team.
[Alessandro]
Absolutely. So, we are now launching on September, The Dental TV. So this is like an initial naming, but maybe we will rebrand it because it started as the idea of having a dental photography conference. Then we had to postpone that we had to cancel.
Then we thought about going on an online conference that was saying, okay, we have so many online conferences. This would be just another one. So, I started inviting more people. So now we have over 30 speakers. And what I have decided, because I’m also now collaborating with Sony and Vimeo, that I will start my own Vimeo OTT channel.
So basically, this is like Netflix for dentists. So, I will have an own video channel and we are now setting it up with an app for iPhone and Android so you can watch and consume and subscribe from all platforms. That’s pretty cool. And you will have then there all the content and we have four pillars, photography, video, communication, and social media.
And I’m reaching out to experts in all these fields, giving you and let’s say the dental community a platform where they can learn all about these topics. And this is the goal to really create something, to build up a community there. And I’m pretty confident that this will be something successful.
It’s basically a lot of YouTuber go over then to this Vimeo OTT or other platforms because you have better control. You can monetize better because then I will like create, like for Netflix, it will be subscription based. There will be some free stuff you can host online events. I will post there my webinars.
There’s so many things and the industry are also interested in participating, for example, posting information about their latest software they have or whatever. So, this will be a good mix for the dental community for sure. So, thank you for giving me the time to explain.
[Jaz]
No, no, please. I think this will be great. I look forward to you to be part of it. I look forward to joining Dentist TV. I think it’s a great idea. We’re having something similar with the Protrusive App, but it’s in a different way. So, I think we need more of these channels to be creative. And you are prolific content creator, Alessandro, and you need to have a dedicated channel.
So, I’m so glad you’re doing this. So well done. My last question for the day now, and I’m gonna sort of tease everyone the out intro for this question. This is another pain area. So we discussed about the time issue and you covered that beautifully ie to revision. Guys, if you’re having issue with time, you need to audit your day.
And then once you’ve audited your day and you can’t find any time and you don’t wanna be a social media manager, then get some external help and reach out for coaching with Alessandro, @dentist.camera. Now my last question is consent. Dentists worry, and rightfully so about getting the right level of consent before posting a video or photo of their patient, or their smile, their teeth, or of their step-by-step photos. How do you gain consent in 2022 from your patients to post their mouth online?
[Alessandro]
That’s an important question then for us, it’s like a multi-step procedure. Step one, when a new patient comes in, they have to fill out their anamnesis
[Jaz] Fine. Like a medical history form.
[Alessandro]
The questionnaire. Do you have any diseases and whatever you call that anyway-
[Jaz]
Medical history. Yep, absolutely.
[Alessandro]
So, and at the end of this, they have to sign it anyway, and there’s a point where they can cross, they can mark this. I agree that my information is shared with other dentist. Because I have to share it with other dentists if I’m doing consultations or I need support. I work closely with the University of Zurich. In more complex cases that we exchange information and that pictures taken can be used for publications, lectures, and on social media.
[Jaz]
Okay.
[Alessandro]
So this is number one. But then if somebody signed that-
[Jaz]
But is that like a tick box or is that there by default? Do they have to tick it?
[Alessandro]
They have to tick it so it’s something active, so they have to do it actively. Second thing, if I have a case that I think I want to post it or use it for a lecture, so it starts most that I use it for a lecture or a presentation or a publication.
Then you go again to the patient and say, look, I recorded this case. And I would like to use it for educational reasons so other dentists or the community will see it. Do you agree? And then you put it in your medical history, say, okay. I ask the patient if she or he agrees that I can use the pictures and then they say, I had only one patient disagreeing. And then I say, okay-
[Jaz]
And just to clarify. The first one was written. It was a tick box. The second time from the same patient you ask verbally.
[Alessandro]
Yes.
[Jaz]
Okay.
[Alessandro]
But I write it down in my medical history. So you have like the thing open and you record everything that you’re doing with your patient, and then I take a note and say, okay.
I ask the patient if it’s okay to use these images for an article and then write the patient agreed. So there’s no need to sign again or whatever, but it’s important that you ask the patient and you get this agreement or this okay from the patient. And again, I think if you ask politely, most of the patients agree.
[Jaz]
In my own experience, yes. I mean, if you just say, look, I would love to use the images to show other patients, or I would love to share this with other dentists because I think there’s a lot to learn here. A lot to share here. Yeah. Maybe had zero or maybe one I can think of that said no ever in the last, you know, nine years. So I agree with you.
Patients are usually very happy for this. And then sometimes the odd one will say yes, but don’t show my face. And that’s totally cool. You need to respect that. But yeah, very rarely will they say it an outright no.
[Alessandro]
I have many patients asking. For their portrait pictures. So when I shoot my portraits, there’s a lot of patient asking if they can use them for their social media so-
[Jaz]
Yes, I had a male model actually. I took some portrait photos and then he actually now use it as part of his portfolio for his modeling. Why not?
[Alessandro]
Yeah. Yeah, why not? No, no. But again, important, ask your patients for the permission before doing so, not just post it. And then you get like the letter from the lawyer saying, okay, dear, your doctor, what have you done? So, the problem is if you have posted something, it’s almost impossible to delete it.
[Jaz]
Yep. And also, when you post it, it now becomes property of Instagram or property or Facebook. So, you need to respect that. The social media then owns it. So, it’s really important to get that level of consent, I think.
[Alessandro]
Yeah. This is also an interesting question. I have to ask someday the editors of books and journals. Because many authors publish them, they’re pictures of books out or articles on social media, and basically, they would not be allowed to do so because the property is on the editor of the book or the article.
So, if you publish articles, the copyright goes in most cases to the editor and you agree with that in this small letter text that nobody reads.
[Jaz]
Yeah. It’s true. But the scary thing though is, and something, the reason why we take it seriously is that there’s nothing stopping anyone. Like you post up a video of your patient and then someone can just download that video, put it on TikTok, and make and perverse the meaning of that, you see? So this is a little bit of scary time, so we just have to proceed with caution. I think that’s important not to forget this.
Alessandro, you’ve been absolutely brilliant today. We’ve talked about photography before. We talked about social media. Are there any closing remarks that you want to give to dentist before we send this out to the big, wide world? And hopefully lots of people join you on your Dentist TV. I look forward to that. Please give us your closing thoughts on the topic of social media and dentistry.
[Alessandro]
Basically it’s social media in general. So number one, be social on social media. So this is my number one thing I want to spread out. Second thing is think about if you really want and have the time to start a social media career or a social media journey, look for professional help if needed. So don’t say, ah, this guy is doing better than myself.
Ask these people, what are they doing? Being consistent is one of the fact, let’s say in the dental office, I would highlight the words love and passion. So you have to be passionate about what you’re doing. You have to love what you do on social media, it’s a little bit passion, a little bit love, but the most important thing is consistency.
You see a lot of burnouts on social media that you don’t see in the dental office in that extent. So social media is something that can be really demanding, taking a lot of energy from you. So there again, try to be consistent and if you feel like running out of ideas, not knowing what to do, not having any goal or plan again, look for professional help. So these are the key elements on being happy and social on social media.
Jaz’s Outro:
Guys, enjoy social media. Have a presence for your practice. Have a presence for yourself if you think that’s the right thing for you. I think what social media has become is, yes, there’s bad points about social media. We kind of touched on a little bit.
It’s always important never to compare yourself to someone else. I think Alessandro just mentioned that. And don’t compare your uncut life to someone’s highlight reel. Right. That’s like number one pathway to depression stuff. So remember that everyone’s always projecting the best and sadly Photoshop stuff as well.
But, have a presence. Enjoy, have fun with it, and if you’re not having fun with it, get some help. I think that’s that’s a message there. Well, there we have it guys. Hopefully you feel a little bit better about your interactions on social media, but also how to portray yourself on social media. It can be a dangerous place.
It can be a minefield. So some of the guidelines that Alessandro presented to us, I think are really helpful. Although this episode wasn’t eligible for notes, this is eligible for CPD because ultimately social media is a form of communication. So if you’re on the Protrusive App, scroll down below, answer a few questions and get your CPD.
You’ve come all this way after all, and as ever, I thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. If you wanted to join our community, there’s one on Facebook called Protrusive Dental Community, and it’s just got the loveliest people with a self-selecting bunch who listen to podcasts, and it’s absolute pleasure to read the discussions we have.
Please do join us, but if you’ve been trying to join, I’m not accepting you. It’s because you haven’t convinced me enough that you’re a dentist, so you kind of have to message me on Instagram or something to convince me that you are a dentist. And sometimes you might ask for proof and whatnot, but it’s only because you wanna create a safe environment for our community. Thanks again, and I’ll catch you in the next episode.
Hygienists working without nurses and feeling like scaling machines – it’s about time we covered this elephant in the dental surgery. I brought on my dear friends and exceptional hygienists Morgan Williams and Louise Brake – they have faced career struggles in the past in the quest to finding the right environment and have so much to share with us.
The biggest takeaway of this episode will be to consider ‘leading from the bottom’ – if you are feeling stuck and don’t just wait around for good luck (I’m such a poet!) – take action. You’ll be inspired by some of the ideas from our discussion!
https://youtu.be/X7GBKUawq4ACheck out the full episode hereNeed to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this episode:
- 04:32 Morgan and Lou’s Dental Hygiene Background
- 07:25 The Importance of Settings Goals and Expectation
- 10:42 Hygienist as ‘Scaling Machines’
- 14:09 The Best Advice to be a Better Hygienist
- 17:40 Good Communication to Improve your Practice
- 21:26 Nurses for Hygienists
- 27:20 Business Models for Hygiene
- 29:54 Preventive Focus in Dental Hygiene
- 34:11 How Hygienist Treat Perio
- 35:52 Optimised, Personalised OHI
- 40:07 Number One Trait to Look for in a Practice
Check out Morgan and Lou’s Instagram, Dynamic Dental Duo!
If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like another episode with Laura Bailey: Why You Need to Take Massive Action for Success in Dentistry
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: What's the best way that hygienists and dentists can work together? Well, when I was in Singapore, I didn't know a single hygienist. It wasn't really a model at the time that was used there.Jaz’s introduction:
Whereas in the UK, we depend so much on our hygienists. I feel like we work together well with hygienists. However, I sometimes worry and hygienists I speak to worry that all they become is a SCALING MACHINE.
And so, I talked about that today with Morgan and Lou. Two lovely hygienists I use to work with in Oxford and they share their struggles, how they had to work in quite a few practices where the environment just WASN’T RIGHT FOR THEM to thrive in as part of prevention minded hygienists. And I think what they have to say, well, if you’re a hygienist, listen to this.
Or maybe a dentist has said this episode to you, then this is gonna be a real source of inspiration from two lovely ladies who’ve been in the game for a little while. They know what they want and they’re gonna tackle those difficult themes such as HYGIENISTS working WITHOUT NURSES like. Where does that stand now in 2023?
My practice now where I work as an associate, only now is it starting to really implement a nurse working with a hygienist. Whereas I’ve worked with a few practices for where there is no such thing. It’s unheard of for the hygienist to have nursing support and I know lots of young hygienists who tell me that they feel really uneasy about working alone and really, is this the best way to deliver ideal patient journey that’s safe and effective? I don’t think so. But then again, a lot of you will say, ‘But Jaz, you are not a practice owner. You are not paying the bills.’ And I totally get that. I respect that.
As an associate, it’s easy for me to say that, but I’m hoping after this episode with Morgan and Lou, though, you understand why it is so important for our profession to work together with hygienists to get the best outcomes, and I do believe that starts with a hygienist being provided a nurse. Now, what I don’t want after this episode is lots of hygienists handing their notice or dentist getting pissed off and saying, ‘Jaz, what the hell do you do? Why did you encourage my hygienist to think a little bit differently and inspire him or her a little bit too much?’
I mean, I want to inspire. I want to get the word out. I want to help these hygienists through Morgan and Lou and what they have to say in learning from their journeys. But I don’t want there to be friction between dentists and hygienists.
I want there to be synergy, and I want us to create an environment where hygienists can be happy at the workplace because a happy team breeds a culture in the practice that’s palpable and patients can detect it, and I think it’s a big part of the patient journey.
Hello, Protruserati. I’m Jaz Gulati and welcome to another episode. This is an interference cast. It’s like a nonclinical interruption. So we talk a little bit about clinical here, but it’s more about the bigger picture stuff, how we can work together with hygienist the best way possible. Let’s join the main interview now.
Main Episode:Morgan and Lou, welcome, very warm welcome to the first ever hygienist to Protrusive Dental Podcast. How are you, both?
[Lou]
Good. Actually excited for our first podcast with you Jaz.
[Jaz]
I’m just excited just to see your faces again and then just have this connection and catch up with you. So those of you who don’t know, I probably said in my intro, but we used to work together in Summertown, Oxford, and you know, Morgs because you reached out to me on Instagram, cuz I think you heard me mention about how much I loved working with you two.
Right? And then I said, listen ladies, you have to come on the show because like what I do for dentists and I’m a little bit shameful in the way that I do very much make the content for dentists, and I do sometimes feel as though I’m leaving our cousins, our brothers, our sisters, our hygienist, therapists out a little bit because some of the themes I cover are just slightly different to the themes that perhaps you guys want.
But then, what hygienists have been doing, they’ve been DMing me, saying, ‘Jaz, can you just cover this one thing for us about how we can work together better?’ And I think, who better than you two? And I’ll just start from the top. I guess. Let’s have a couple of introductions first before I give you, my introduction. So Morg, start with yourself please. Tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into hygiene, and you are interest in that regard of working in the capacity with dentists.
[Morgan]
So, I was a dental nurse for seven years before I got into hygiene. Yeah, we were talking about this the other day about how we think it’s a really great base because you already have that background knowledge.
So yeah. Then obviously met hygienist on route and thought, hang on a minute. I think I would like to do a bit of that. And then lucky enough-
[Jaz]
Did you find that jump difficult? Because a lot of dental nurses consider that move and then something comes along and they don’t do it, they don’t commit. Did you find it a big jump? A big hurdle?
[Morgan]
I mean, I was young, I was 21, I was at university, studying hard, playing hard. So, I actually think I had it really easy. We had women on the course that had children, families back home, and they were sacrificing that time away from them and studying, and they were working way harder than I was.
That was for sure. So, I think I did it an easier time in my life, but I have real respect for people that do it later on. And you know what? Great, because I have even more experience. So, yeah, I would say if you are considering it, go for it. It’s a great flexible career.
[Jaz]
And one of the themes we’ll talk about later, is a common theme I’ve spoken about on the podcast Morgs, which is finding the right place of work and how you have to kiss lots of frogs before you find your Prince Charming. And I know we had that chapter four. I’ll talk a little bit about; we’ll talk about that. Right? We’ll talk about the state of the play and the situation and stuff. But, Lou, let’s hear from you. Tell us about your background, how you got.
[Lou]
It’s, yeah, pretty similar to Morgan’s actually. I, after leaving school, I worked as a dental nurse, for a little bit longer, about 10 years.
And I used to always pop in to see the hygienist and see how she worked and offer some help sharpen her instruments and ask if she wanted some charting and everything, because she worked without a nurse. And I really loved what she did. It really, really interested me.
And she said to me, ‘Lou, you must gone do dental hygiene. You know, you’ve obviously got an interest for it.’ And that’s what I did. I started applying. I was a little older. I was 26, so it was, no, and I’ve never looked back. It’s been the best thing ever. I always knew I wanted to go into some form of dentistry, but I never quite knew why. Or what. It’s been absolutely amazing. Never look back and I would never have a different career. I love it.
[Jaz]
Brilliant. You know, that shines through when I used to work with you two, like I could say it now, I don’t want to offend any hygienist listening at the moment, but you two are just the best hygienists ever worked with, honestly, the understanding, the culture at work, just you two, just amazing, and I want to bottle you two up and spray you around the country in terms of your, just how you work together and this is what this episode’s about, right?
Because, and before we delve deeper, I’m getting so many thoughts and questions in my head already, but Morg, you said something really important before I hit the record button, and I guess it’s kind of like a disclaimer before we talk further. Do you want to just say it, go on. Just spill it out, get it out your system.
[Morgan]
So we work in a really, really lovely practice in Norfolk, Oxford. It’s a very affluent area. We were very fortunate to be hired by an amazing dentist called Guy Duckworth who was very, very prevention savvy, forward thinking and the ethos of that was carried on through the practice.
But we are not stupid to know that it’s not a cheap practice. What we can offer and the people that come here, a lot of them can well afford what we’re offering so we can completely tailor make their treatment for them. And we do appreciate that there are practices where it would have, the way we work would have to be very adapted because affordability is definitely an issue, especially in the times we’re living in. So yeah, I didn’t really want us to come across as a couple of divas that just said, this is our way enough highway in the way that everybody should be working, but what we can offer is the best of the best because of the-
[Jaz]
And it works in your business model. Lou, is there anything you want to add to that?
[Lou]
I think that you can, I think it works. We can tell patients what they need, and they obviously take up the advice, they take up the appointments. So, we find that we have the best success rates, you know?
But I would think even if you haven’t got affordability and you have got reduced time, it’s actually about set what your goals are. Your expectations and work to them. I find a lot of the time people think that, you know, oh, you’re just going to become an, you know, it’s all about removing the calculus.
It’s all about removing, you know, the staining. But actually I think that’s very, very shortsighted, basically. That’s a short, quick fix, but actually it’s not helping anybody. It’s just actually you are stressing yourself out. Your expectations are never going to be met doing that. So actually, I think you’ve got to play the long game, you know, like I said, goals, expectations, definitely in any capacity.
You know, if you’ve got 30 minutes, then I think adapt that appointment. Two, what is the most important thing? What is the priority here going forward for that patient?
[Morgan]
I was just going to say, giving a patient value for money does not just mean scaling their teeth. So, you know the whole give a man a fish for a day, you’ll feed them for a day, but teach them how to fish and you’ll give them a lifetime’s worth of achievement.
That’s exactly the same with what we do. Us offering somebody educational on how to clean their teeth is going to mean that they’re going to get so much less issues further down the line, just scaling them. No clinical benefit.
[Jaz]
And as we explore this episode further, that’ll become clear in terms of messages we’re want to send out. But I’ll give everyone an example straight off the bat, is that the way we worked together in Oxford at the time was when patients would come to see you Morgs, there were some patients and you know, you got into heated confrontations because you’d refuse to do any calculus or plaque removal until they sought them.
So, you just spent in the least patronizing way as possible. Patients always be like, wait a minute, I’m paying you x amount, clean my teeth and you are just telling me how to clean myself and you’re doing the right thing. You’re doing it by the book. But you know, you are ready to have your purpose. You have your purpose in terms of their overall health and actually sorting them out, prevention base so that they can look after themselves rather than just being a scaling machine.
You have the holistic health in mind rather than just, let me get the scaler out and stick it in as soon as possible. So that’s the kind of what we’re talking about here. The bigger picture. So taking a step back, I know about your journeys now and you did nursing first and you got into hygiene that way.
And it’s nice to know your individual, journeys and then let’s talk about actually finding the right environment and the struggle that you found to find the right place. And it’s very much ties into what you said morgues. That the young hygienist who’s listening to this, who’s just, a couple years out, and if we didn’t say that disclaimer, first up, they would listen to this, and they might feel really disheartened that they’re just a scaling machine and they get miserable.
But what you’ve made very clear is that actually you work in a very specific practice. They’re set up for this, but the second thing they’re not hearing or seeing until now we’re going to reveal it now, is that it took you a long time or a lot of practice to find the right place. So Morg, let’s hear your journey of the frogs that you kissed along the way.
[Morgan]
There’s been many, and in one practice I did five hours in their practice, and I said, ‘This isn’t going to work.’ You either get on board with how I want to work, which looking back as a newly qualified hygienist with very big head, you either get on board with how I want to work, or I won’t be here on Monday. Guess what? I didn’t go back on Monday.
[Jaz]
Well done.
[Morgan]
I think I left 12. Yeah, I left 12 practices when I first started. This is the only practice I remained at. And I remember Louise saying to me at the beginning of my journey, there are enough good practices that you’ll be able to leave the bad ones. But I would say to the newly qualified hygienist, working as many different practices as you can.
Because eventually what will happen is you’ll get offered more days in the good ones and you’ll be able to leave the bad ones but choose to be the clinician you want to be. If you feel undervalued, if you don’t feel listened to, if you’re made to work 20 minute appointments with no nurse, move on because obviously on the forums all the time is these poor, newly qualified hygienists, they come out of university so full of enthusiasm and I can remember that feeling.
You just want to go and like spread the word about all hygiene and change the world and you feel so limited and unsupported. And when I see those conversations, I just think you are literally flogging a dead horse. You need to leave that practice and move on.
[Lou]
What I was going to say, I think what we are finding is happening is because if you are working in these practices where you are not feeling valued, where you are not being able to utilize all of your skills and make that difference, then the stress levels are high and people are actually leaving the profession.
And that’s not what we want. You know, they’ve spent a long-time training and we want them to stay. I think they do have to find the right practices and be the hygienist and dentist that you inspire to be when you actually started your journey of actually, of the education, of the training. Definitely.
[Jaz]
I mean, that applies to dentists and hygienists. And Lou, just to give us your background in terms of how many practices until you found where you are at now.
[Lou]
Wow. I qualified, 23, 24 years ago, and one of my tutors actually said to me, do not become a scaling machine.
And she’d said to me, you love the oral hygiene side of it. Find the right practice for you. locum first. And that was the best bit of advice that I had. I locum first. And even though they had permanent positions, but what I’d said was that I will lock them. So, my day, I was traveling two hours one way, two hours another, but it was worth it because then I could see whether it was a practice that I wanted to be in, whether they got me and whether I got them basically.
So yeah, I lock them first. And then even when I came to Diamond House, my interview with Guy was very, very relaxed and we just had a chat and he’d said, ‘ We’d like you to start working for us.’ And so what I’d said was actually, ‘How about we actually have a month together?’
I said, ‘Just as a locum, I will do a month for you and then we’ll have a conversation at the end of the month. If you like me and I like you and we’re working well together, we’ll then you know, we’ve got a deal we can go forward.’ And that’s actually what I did. And it was the best thing. It was the best thing ever.
But I think if I haven’t got that advice at the start by saying, ‘Be the hygienist, work the way that you want to work.’ Then I don’t think I would’ve had maybe the confidence to actually say that right from the beginning. A lot of people, a lot of my colleagues that actually started qualified at the same time.
Within months, they were stressed, burnt out, saying, I’m not going to be able to do this forever. And that’s even after a few months, you know? So, I feel very, very fortunate that I took on board the advice that I was given right from the start.
[Jaz]
So the theme already we talked about is, you know, I have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your Prince Charming. The second theme based on that is date them before you marry them. And that was a great example.
[Lou]
Yeah.
[Jaz]
Even though you’ve got this great vibe from Guy Duckworth, you said, ‘Hang on a minute. You know, I like this, but I’m going to do a month first.’ I love that. And I think that’s great. It’s a little bit brave. But I think, it’s good to have that and the themes I’m seeing here, I don’t know if you listened to an episode I did with my good friend, Laura Bailey. She is a therapist I work with in Richmond and she’s doing a lot of bonding. And the common themes we’re seeing here is you have to take massive action. You have to put your best foot forward. And that can sometimes that map, that journey can look very uncomfortable. That’s a very squiggly line from point A to point B. It’s a lot of tough conversations to have along the way. A lot of goodbyes, a lot of upsets, a lot of new places, new environments.
A lot of commuting that you did, Lou, these are the real-world issues until we found it. What I don’t want on the back of this episode is a mass exodus of any hygienist who’s unhappy. And then this episode comes out on Monday and by Wednesday, all these principals are calling me up saying, ‘Jaz, stop podcasting! You just ruined it for everyone.’
[Lou]
And then you’re getting hate mail!
[Jaz]
Hate mail, and love mail. I’m sure what you’re saying is resonating with a lot of hygienists. So really, if a hygienist is feeling stuck, rather than taking a big risk and being out of income and out pocket and struggling to find new work.
What is the first step that you could use, but perhaps you employed but it didn’t work because maybe the principal wasn’t receptive, wasn’t open that communication, it wasn’t the right environment. Whatever. What is the first step a hygienist can do to open that conversation to improve so that’re no longer a scaling machine?
[Morgan]
I think evolve. The biggest thing that everybody has to do in practice, and that’s not just the hygienist, that’s the dentist, the practice manager, everybody, nurses, we all have to learn to evolve. So, I think, if you’ve got good communication in the practice, we definitely don’t work how we first worked when we lost each other.
Yeah. Communicate. And you need to be in a practice where you can evolve. So yeah, I mean, definitely don’t do what I did and just walk out after five hours. I think try, have communication within the practice.
[Jaz]
Give it a shot. Give it a chance.
[Morgan]
Yeah, give it a shot and try and communicate and air your views as to how you feel that things could be improved and in then at that case, if you think that things aren’t improving and you have it what you are feeling, then maybe it is time to move on.
[Lou] Mm-hmm. I think good communication. We say that we are a team, actually be a team, actually converses a team, get everybody together and actually find out what everybody’s expectations are. Set some goals. Set some action plans together. Go on some courses together. Go on some, you know, so everybody has a really good understanding because I kind of think a lot of the time we think that the other person knows all about the subject. Okay? I’ve had dentist, said to me, ‘You know what, I had six weeks perio.’
I haven’t got a clue what I’m doing kind of thing, you know, holding their hands up. You know a lot more than me. And when it comes to decay and occlusion and everything like that, I’ll say, ‘You know, that’s your skillset.’ And recognize everybody else’s skillset and actually utilize it in the team, and don’t be afraid to say, ‘I don’t really know much about this, but can you tell me about it?’
And, you know, every day’s a school day, we don’t know everything about all subjects, so actually educate each other as well. You know, maybes have regular meetings with each other, even if it’s just a 20-minute coffee and just say, ‘Can you tell us a bit about what you do? Can you tell us a bit about motivating patience? Can you tell a bit us about what you’re doing, what your successes are, what your failures are?’
[Jaz]
We used to go out for Chinese food and curry and that kind of stuff a few times that we went out as a team, back when Amme and Yiannis and whatnot. So that was good actually. So, it’s nice to have that team building, you know, team building gets into everyone, but also suggest the changes and have that open conversation. Right.
[Lou]
Absolutely, and don’t be afraid to actually say, let’s do something. It’s almost like it’s positive criticism, you know? And I think take it as a positive. This, just saying that actually I think we could improve on things, I think is monumental for every practice and for ourselves as well. Everybody wants to like you said, evolve. We need to evolve as people, but we need to evolve within our work as well.
[Jaz]
Like you don’t just go into work one day and then hope that’s a day that the principal’s going to have an epiphany and be like, you know what? We’re doing it all wrong. How about we change the model and do this? No one’s going to do that. You know, things are going to not just change miraculously overnight. You need to be suggestive. You need to plant some seeds; you need to arrange some meetings. You need to come up with, you know one of my favorite things is, don’t come to someone with problems.
Come to them with solutions. So don’t be that person. That hygienist would be like, ‘Oh, this is not working. That’s not working. I want a nurse, blah, blah, blah.’ How about you come up, if we have a nurse, so this is one awesome thing that Laura did when she approached the principal Hap, who’s very open and receptive and great leader is, she said to him, ‘I want to use EMS airflow. I know there’s a huge expense, but I’ve done a calculation that if we raise our fees to this amount, we can cover it.’ And then they had that conversation. And what a great way to approach someone rather than, ‘I want an EMS airflow.’ You know what I mean? Yeah. So, so I think that’s a great tip. Any examples of when you two might have done that?
[Morgan]
Yeah, we were told at one point that when the practice couldn’t afford to have a nurse, we couldn’t have nurses. So we took a pay cut to retain having the nurse because we feel like well, it makes our day so much easier. We hugely value the girls and we want to offer the best service, and the only way we can offer the best service and give a hundred percent of our time and attention to the patient is to have a nurse.
[Lou]
And to utilize the nurse as well. Yeah, definitely it is.
[Morgan]
It’s the best decision we ever made.
[Lou]
We accepted taking pay cuts for the better machinery and to have the nurse and we enjoy our day. We enjoy what we do. And it’s because of I think of making those changes and making the sacrifices as well of it’s less financially, but actually we have a less stressful day, and we enjoy what we do. Patients are happy and everybody’s happy and it’s a win-win.
[Morgan]
And we can justify our costs because if a patient set, they’ll even come in and say, ‘Oh, no nurse with you today.’ And you’ll say, ‘Oh yeah, they’re just processing the instruments. They’ll be with you in a moment.’ And we make them fully aware that yes, we’re not the cheapest, but it’s because we’re using the best equipment. We have support a hundred percent of the day, and our focus is solely on them.
[Lou]
It’s that patient journey. I hear that word banded around a lot these days. You know, the patient journey. But it is the patient is our business basically.
[Jaz]
Mm-hmm.
[Lou]
Isn’t it?
[Morgan]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Lou]
So to make them feel really cared for and important and that they are getting the best treatment, then everybody’s a winner.
[Morgan]
I was just going to say, the biggest litigation in dentistry is perio.
[Jaz]Mm-hmm.
[Morgan]So the only way we can do our notes fully and all of that kind of stuff is with that support. So, yeah, we love our girls.
[Jaz]And what you did, those were so selfless, like, you know, taking a pay I didn’t expect you to say that. I was like, that took me by surprise that you said that, and that’s just amazing. Like those who are listening on the podcast, who are driving on their commutes, and they didn’t see me. You might have noticed my hair’s raising, right? Because that was a like, listen, listen. I was like, wait, what?
You took a pay cut? That’s like, that’s such a selfless thing to do. It was like that is amazing. I don’t know many people who would do that. So, kudos to you. Like, you know, the reason why you two are in environment that you are happy is because you’ve made this environment, you’ve fought for this environment.
And I was, you know when I said, give me an example. What a great example. Then having that conversation like, wait, if we can’t have our nurses, then we are willing to have a pay cut. But for you to do that and show leadership from the bottom is just amazing and absolutely kudos. So, let’s cover that topic now of nurses, because that’s one of the questions I want to cover.
Where do we stand nowadays? Right. In terms of nurses, I think it’s having worked with you two. I think it’s fundamental. Cause obviously before I joined you guys, I was already used to hygienists not having nurses. So, this is a huge topic now you can see it from both aspects, right?
As a business for a principal to change their business model overnight and pay nurse, additional nurse wages. Especially with a shortage of nurses at the moment. We talked about earlier as well, before we hit record button. That’s a big thing, but in terms of a difference, it makes for your clinical longevity, clinical enjoyment, what you can do for patients to patient journey. How can we find a balance?
This episode is brought to you by Enlighten Whitening, the premium brand of teeth whitening. Not only do they have the best trays in the business, the patients really perceive it as a high quality product, and it’s really clever how the whitening gel itself is separate to the desensitizer, and I know Payman talks about the importance of that and how it’s beneficial for whitening system to have those two products separated rather than squeezed into one formulation. So, if you want to do some training online, head over to protrusive.co.uk/enlighten and check out what they have to offer as free training on teeth whitening, and you get to see what the fuss about enlighten two, back to the main episode.
[Lou]
Me personally is that without your nurse, it would be substandard treatment. Basically it’s, you know, to be able to personalize your treatment, do plaque scores, bleeding scores, have fantastic cross infection and be able, like Morgan said, to actually give the patient your time is paramount to really good oral hygiene and really good patient experience and really good outcomes basically.
I think everybody needs to know their value. Basically. Education does come at a cost. So actually you know, patients might say, oh, like you are talking, I don’t know whether I’m going off subject here, . But anyway, it’s patients might say, ‘Oh, you know, well, I’ve paid 110 pounds for this and no has taught to me.’
You know, but like I said, that was invaluable information and all of these in order to actually measure and motivate all of these indices is so important and they have to be recorded, like Morgan said, for the legal aspect of things, but also for the patient motivation. If we do plaque scores on every patient that’s measurable, we can say-
[Jaz]
But what you’re saying, Lou, is that without a nurse, it’s almost impossible to get good records. And to, you know, the reason you mentioned about the fees is because yes, if you’re going to be working in the model where about you have a nurse, You can’t expect to just for that to work in your current business model.
The entire business model needs to change. The prices need to reflect that, but that’s not necessarily, you know, I think dentists and principals are scared that if they raise their prices by 20 pounds to be able to cover the nurse, that they’re going to lose their patients. But, from any experience I have had so far whereby we’ve introduced that model and increased the hygiene fees, I haven’t noticed a mass drop, and I’ve only noticed that the team are working together better. The hygienists are so much happier, and the patients are getting better care now. That’s what I’ve noticed.
[Lou]
Definitely, I think you just have to take that leap and actually believe what you want to offer patients, how you want to deliver that and just take the chance. And it will be absolutely fine.
But like I said, it’s just taken that risk. Some people don’t want to take the risk, but I think really, really push for it because if they take the risk, a few months, years down the line, you will not regret it. You will definitely not regret it.
[Morgan]
From an education point of view as well have everybody on board as to what it is that you are offering. So when a patient rings up and they say to reception, oh gosh, that’s expensive, that you haven’t just got the receptionist saying, yeah, it is, you know, our receptionists are fully versed in knowing that they are telling a patient what is offered at this practice, which they’re not getting at other practices.
[Jaz]
Just to make that clear to a young hygienist who hasn’t worked in the kind of environment that the lovely work that you do. What are patients getting for their money in terms of, you know, you’re working in a place where both of you have an important role and have had an important role in designing the protocols of how you’re going to treat perio in the practice.
And you two are fundamental, at the top of that actually. So what is it that you offer that stands you out and is able to justify the piece of fees to the patients when they pick up the phone and call reception?
[Lou]
I think it’s definitely; it’s tailored to the individual. It’s not just come in every six months and have your teeth scaled and polished basically. It’s tailored. So, do you want to say what we do?
[Morgan]
Yeah. I think as well because we’re given free reign, we’ve never been told this is how you must work. We were trusted enough that they would say, you know, you need to go off and see Morgan or Lou, and then we would tailor make the package of the hygiene as to how the patient needed it individually.
It was never, you’re going off for a scale and polish. It was, you are going off to be educated about how to care for your mouth and in doing that they will clean your teeth. But fundamentally the long term is that we want you to keep your teeth. The more you see Morgan and Lou, hopefully the less your dental treatment you’ll need. So, you were big on that Jaz. You were big on saying, you know, I’d like you to have a better relationship with your hygienist than you do with me.
[Jaz]
If you’re seeing me too much, things are going wrong. You know, you keep seeing the ladies and they’ll sort, then they make sure you’re on the straight and narrow. Very much true. Very much true. And do you feel as though you have been well supported at the management level when you’ve suggested to have a preventive focus in the practice.
[Lou]
Absolutely. I think because when we started this practice, it was very a prevention led anyway. I think we’re really fortunate that actually what we had to do was maybe have difficult conversations with new clinicians coming in and even we were getting them to shadow us to actually say that this is how we work and equally, I’m really happy actually shadowing dentists as well to say, actually, I want to see how you work as well because obviously, you have lots of different patients, lots of different personalities.
And so, it’s quite good actually. I always find that the patient have the best relationship with people that suit them as well.
[Morgan]
I think information is key and our appointments are very information heavy. There’s not a single appointment, patient doesn’t leave with a plaque or a bleeding score and god forbid we’d forget to do that. A patient as they’re exiting, would say, oh, what are my scores today? They want to know those numbers.
[Lou]
Yeah.
[Jaz]
Do you still do your A5 card with the traffic light system and the percentage of the bleeding score, plaque score and the smiley face, et cetera? Do you still do that?
[Lou]
You know what? We don’t. Since I left. Actually, no, that actually stopped. But I tell you what we do is actually, well, I always vocalize what there, I always get the nurse to actually say, what was their bleeding score last time? And she will shout out. So obviously the patient can hear, I can hear, and then I’ll say, and what is it today?
Because, then obviously, you know, you can say which whether it’s improved, got worse or stayed the same, and that leads you into what you need to do. We need to focus on these specific areas as well. I think it’s a great motivational tool.
[Morgan]
We are making the patient realize that they need to take ownership of their disease. It is not about coming and having a quick cleanup every six months to a year. It is about them realizing that what they do at home is so much more important than what we do. And that’s the difference. I think that we have the support to push forward in this practice, which I definitely didn’t get in another practices.
It was about get them in, get them out, get the money. And the education was just really not that important, but that’s what’s kept us at this practice.
[Lou]
Yeah. I tell you what I find very, very interesting as well, is that when the clinician starts with the seed of you’ve got inflammation, starts to talk about the health of the gums with the patient and even shows them a TePe, it’s that the patient has heard something and then they came to us.
And then we get them to, obviously, we educate them to understand what was meant by that. And then they just get to know, obviously the whole picture of what’s happening. You know, plaque bleeding scores, six-point pocket charts. We found that, you know, if they’re perio patient, there definitely should be having full mouth Peri-apicals as well.
And actually, so courses are good. Keep up to date. And actually, if you haven’t got that information, if you are qualified, take the PAs yourself, tell the patient, why you are taking it. Bring them over to the computer, talk to them about their bone levels. Tell them why they have bone loss in certain areas but tell them what they need to do to actually stop that and actually to halt the disease.
If you are not qualified to take the x-rays or confident in doing so. Actually, don’t be afraid to actually go back to your clinician and say, I would like full mouth PAs, please, get the patient booked in. And I’m sure the clinician would be more than happy to do that for you. But I do think communication and actually building some bridges and working together is-
And singing from the same hymn sheet. Because like you said, the clinicians are saying it and you are enforcing it and you are saying it and we are enforcing it. So, you have to work together. And I guess that brings in the whole perio approach.
Cause I got my last two questions are how do you treat perio in your practice? And it sounds like a stupid question in a way, is that what do you mean how do you treat perio? We treat perio like we’re supposed to treat perio, but you’d be amazed ladies about, and you’ve experienced these different practices.
You know, some practices don’t talk about how we treat perio and you guys like, this is how we treat perio. We have a protocol in place. So, tell us a little bit about what that looks like in your practice.
[Morgan]
So number one, OHI, as you know, and obviously we’ve discussed a lot. We spend pretty much the first appointment with every patient, and this is whether they’re direct access or sent from the dentist.
The first appointment is spent showing somebody how to brush their teeth, and then often two weeks later, we are reviewing and seeing how they’re getting on. We’re not just sending them off and saying good luck. We want to know that everything we’ve done with them, they’ve understood. We do a lot of tell how, do lots of literature, leaflets, flip charts. We can send them videos, whatever we can do to support helping them learn about how they can care for their teeth themselves.
[Lou]
Oh, the mouse map. I found really good actually getting a mouse map and actually saying which TePes or which incidental aids suits best for that area as well, and that’s where the tailormade care comes into place as well, so they know exactly they’ve got something to take away with them.
Put it up in their bathroom so they can actually reflect and say, because obviously I think it’s being found, hasn’t it? On each appointment, isn’t it? Audio-wise? They actually retain very little knowledge of what we say. So, if you give them something as well, then that just supports and reinforces exactly what we’ve been saying to them.
[Jaz]
Perfect. We’ll talk about locum cause that’s for me is really important, but something that maybe you ladies now maybe take for granted because you are working, you’ve been working this way for so long, but just remind me if you still do this and everyone who’s listening is TePe brushes.
You are actually getting out the long handle ones. You’re actually putting it in their space, you’re showing them, and then they get to take that one as a sample to go home. And is it single tufted as well? What tell us the kind of things they walk away with.
[Morgan]
Definitely we’re big into single tufted brushes, bending single tufted brushes with a burner if you need to. So that you’re adapting it for specific areas, showing patients how to use them down the pocket. Yeah, we actually, we don’t just give the patient an electric toothbrush. We are actually showing them in their mouth how to use the electric toothbrush. Because so many times you’ll hear, oh yeah, I’ve been told to brush for longer, or brush harder or soft, whatever. That means nothing to anybody. We’re actually showing them in their mouth how to use it.
[Lou]
And I find what’s really good. I mean, the IO it’s absolutely amazing. I think that’s been a real big game changer.
[Morgan]
Yeah.
[Lou]
The technology behind that is fantastic. And actually, having all the heads show the patients what to do, basically we tell them what to do and actually getting the patient to actually brush, you know, give them a mirror, sit them up, get them to brush.
You’ll actually find the reason why they actually, that they haven’t been getting anywhere for years kind of thing, is basically because, you know, the angle of the toothbrush is not right. The technique is just completely right, but they think that they’ve been holding the electric toothbrush and moving it, but the majority of patients actually use that electric toothbrush, like a manual one, you know, and but you need to just stop them, show them, and just say, you know, how does that feel? You know, can you see-
[Jaz]
Do you ever get worried or scared that by asking them to brush in front of you that they might feel patronized? Is that something that ever crossed your mind in the early days of, of doing this protocol? And have you ever had these encounters where the patient’s personality type is like, what do you mean brush? Like you try and say, I can’t brush, tell us about some of those encounters.
[Lou]
Absolutely.
[Morgan]
Yeah.
[Lou]
Quite, quite a few.
[Morgan]
We’ve both been shouted at over the years.
[Lou]
Absolutely. Yeah, we have definitely.
[Morgan]
And I will say to a patient, especially if they’re older than me, please don’t find this patronizing. I do teach people in their nineties how to brush their teeth, but I am only here to help you. But yeah, you get pushback, and one size doesn’t fit all. I have had very rarely, but I’ve had an occasion where I’ve said, look, I think the way that we are working together doesn’t work. Why don’t you try and cover hygiene? Visit with my colleague and I’ll say to Luke, can you take one for the team as well.
[Lou]
Vice versa if I’ve had somebody where I’m just not getting anywhere, or we haven’t been looked that good rapport. But like I said, you know my way of working my way advising them things, they’re just, it hasn’t, kind of got through or it just hasn’t worked for them or for me.
You know? Then yeah, Morgan’s seen them as well and it’s amazing because even sort of, it’s such successes with some people that I haven’t, so actually be fine and just saying, you know what? I think you might be better suited to see my colleague; you know? And I think that’s absolutely fine to say as well. And I think at the end of the day, the patient, even though they might, you know, obviously yeah. Have a few grumbles at reception and things like that. I think they’d depreciate just. The honesty as well really.
[Morgan]
But you can’t please everybody. You are not going to have a hundred percent success of every single person loving your practice. But you know, as long as you retain 99%, I think you’re doing okay.
[Jaz]
Yeah. But then you attract the like-minded people, right? You attract the people that buy into the health philosophy, that buy into prevention, that understand that ‘Hey, I’m paying a little bit more. Yeah, but this is way more than what I’ve ever had before. And these two, they actually care about me and my health outcomes, and I get an objective score at the end.’ And those people who value that will say those who. Well won’t, and, and you probably are happy that way, I guess.
[Morgan]
Mm-hmm. Yeah. True.
[Jaz]
It’s self-selecting.
[Lou]
If our prices have gone up kind of thing, people have actually gone and said, you know what? I can’t afford to come here anymore. I’m gone somewhere else. I would say within a year they are back and they just said, you know what kind of thing, we’ve been to other practices and actually we can see where hygienist’s going?
[Morgan]
Yeah.
[Lou]
And what you do different. And we are back, which, which is quite nice. And sometimes you have to lose a few patients and if they come back, then that’s fantastic. You know, then patients will be the patients for life.
[Jaz]
What is the number one quality or trait that hygienists should look for in a practice or practice manager or a practice principal? Anything from the practice of the management team? What is the number one trait or quality? Is important in finding the right place.
[Morgan]
I think they need to be a human first and a dentist second. I think when it’s just solely business and with the management as well, then you don’t feel cared for, because most of us spend more time at work than we do at home.
That’s just a reality of life. So, you need to enjoy yourself. I mean, yeah, we are not scaling from nine to five. We have a lot of fun on route as well, and you need to feel looked after and we really, yeah, coming to this practice was like working for my parents. I’ve never experienced anything like it.
And it’s just carried on, hasn’t it? It’s just a lovely, happy environment. We actually have a nice time and I wish that for everybody, and when I see the forums of the unhappiness, it is heartbreaking because there are so many good practices out there. So please don’t quit the career because it is an amazing one. Yeah, seek out good practices because they are out there and you will find lovely practices and environments to be in. Don’t lose the faith.
[Lou]
And just make little changes as well. Like I said, drop the seed in and make little changes, you know, because like I said, it’ll have that snowball effect.
[Morgan]
Yeah, definitely.
[Jaz]
For me, I think a really important fact for me, if you ask me that question, I would say and you know, you say human side, which is lovely and I love that. I also think leadership, just having a good leader, okay, he or she should be a good leader. They should be a good leader because that really trickles down, leadership is how the culture is brewed.
It sets the tone of the practice. Having a present leader or the presence felt of leadership, I think is the most important thing. And sometimes, if you are not getting that from the powers above, then I’m very much a proponent that leadership can start from the bottom. And then you could start being the little mini leader in your sort of capacity to try and drive the changes from the bottom.
And that looks like a much rockier road, a lot of resistance and uphill battle, but it is one which does have a pot of gold at the end, if you like. So, I think it is worth fighting that battle. And sometimes it means you to change mountains, change course, go off piece, all the themes that we discussed at the beginning. But I think it’s worth, you know, if you are feeding the lack of leadership, then become the leader that you want to drive the changes that you need.
[Lou]
Absolutely.
[Jaz]
Yeah. No, totally agree.
[Lou]
And I kind of think be a leader. I’m willing to listen to people as well, you know? And obviously make the final decision as the leader, but I think actually being open to other people’s ideas even if you tried something and just that actually we’ll try it for six months, and if it’s not working, then we’ll think about something. You know?
[Morgan]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Lou]
I think it’s better if you tried.
[Jaz]
As a final point, you’ve got the microphone to dentist and hygienists in an episode, which may become viral. I think it’s going to become viral because it’s such a- The face he made everyone, anyone know who’s listening and not watching the face that Morg has made was not one of joy
[Morgan]
It’s like love island, we’re just these two little hygienists slip kind of thing.
[Lou]
Jaz, do we need to start organizing our merch or what? ,
[Morgan]
Water bottle.
[Jaz]
Ladies? Yeah, you can totally do this. You know, your own EMS airflow kind of thing. You can do this.
[Morgan]
Jaz, on a serious note, what I do want to mention though is refer big, big point of the perio, which we haven’t discussed is have an amazing relationship with a periodontist that you trust. You’ve seen their work and that you have open communication with. We just pick up the phone to our periodontist or ring them, whatever. But we’ve got that open communication. How do you think this is going? How do you think that’s going?
Should we refer at this point? As a hygienist, we are not the end of the road. We know that. So yeah, seek out good local periodontists. That is also a massive, definitely piece of advice.
[Lou]
Yeah, definitely. And I think as well is, you know, I think a lot of the time, because we’re in different rooms, you know, everybody works independently, but actually, you know, I think supporting each other as a team is paramount to a happy practice basically, you know, support each other, be there for each other and help each other out. Definitely.
[Morgan]
Buy your nurse lots of cake and coffee.
[Jaz]
That’s something I already do. That’s something I already do as well. So, ladies, honestly, I’ve loved seeing you both again.
I miss you both so much. I wish you all the best. Thanks for inspiring. I think a generation, because I think, you know, believe it or not, people hygienists have been messaging me on Instagram saying, because I promised this episode a while ago, and hygienist messaging me on Instagram saying, is that episode out yet?
Is that episode out yet? And they’re really what they need. I think what we need in dentistry because look, the BDA aren’t doing it right, is leadership. And I think if this is a small step to get people to start thinking about that and how we can get some sort of the change in the right direction, then so be it. And I look forward to hearing people’s feedback. How can we send you roses, flowers, chocolates, cakes? How can we reach out to you?
[Lou]
We’ve got our ins, we have got actually the Instagram page. But because we’re a bit dinosaurish of the old technology-
[Morgan]
We’re going on a course.
[Lou]
Yeah. We’ve gone on a course to actually see how to actually market ourselves and actually how to actually get the word out there. So, we’re doing this course in February?
[Morgan]
February, it’s called Thrive, and it’s the hygienist and therapists to market themselves. So, if you could just use our Instagram names on your podcast. That’d be great.
[Jaz]
I will do.
[Lou]
Instagram names. Is it the-
[Jaz]
Here’s what I’m testing you because you didn’t say it because you probably forgotten your Instagram name.
[Lou]
We only go on it once a year. It’s the diamond, the dynamic duo. Yeah. I’ll message you.
[Jaz]
Is it actually @dynamicduo?
[Morgan]
Something like that. Yeah, but honestly there’s only about three posts on it. We’re so terrible.
[Lou]
We’re not that dynamic on Instagram. But in the surgery, we are. So, we’re ready to evolve.
[Jaz] But after February you’re going to see lots of more posts and stuff. So if you wanna show your appreciation, if you want to ask some questions, if you want to engage @dynamicduo or the equivalent of where, whatever it actually is, I’ll put it in the show notes as always, ladies, thank you so much.
[Lou and Morgan]
Thank you, Jaz. We love you.
Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it guys. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. A lot of the episodes are eligible for CPD. This one isn’t. There wasn’t enough substance, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t enough juice, right? So, there wasn’t enough substance for questions and CPD, but I’m hoping you found that as a stimulating and inspiring episode with your hygienist.
I’m hoping you’re feeling like you can leave from the bottom, and if you’re a dentist, I hope that’s opened your eyes to the struggles of some hygienist and an opportunity for you to put yourself in a hygienists’ shoes who’s working alone day in, day out, and how they’re not able to operate at their highest level when they’re not in the right environment.
If you know anyone that will benefit from this episode, whether it’s your principal or an associate or a hygienist that you work with, please send them this. And I’ll catch you in the next episode.
I think self development and emotional intelligence is foundational to our relationships with others. It’s how we interact with our patients, significant others, children and family members. Investing in your personal development makes you a better communicator. That’s why you should listen to Dr. Agi Keramidas in this episode!
We discussed how to begin your self-development journey and what are the important areas for dentists to focus on. We hope you’ll apply just ONE THING whether it’s a book title that we recommend or implement one tip to better yourself or your interactions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzItyEV3x_cCheck out the Video for Free on YouTubeNeed to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of the episode:
- 4:58 Dr. Agi Keramidas’ Introduction
- 10:57 Getting started with self-development
- 14:05 Important areas to develop for Dentists
- 21:04 Dr. Agi’s communication style
- 30:03 Roadmap to self-development
- 35:13 Practical tip for self-development
Check out these books recommended by Dr. Agi Keramidas
- How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie
- Rich Dad Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki
- The Biology of Belief by Dr. Bruce Lipton
- The Daily Stoic by Ryan Holiday and Stephen Hanselman
Check out Dr. Agi Keramidas’ podcast: Personal Development Mastery for more personal development episodes
- Website: agikeramidas.com
- Podcast: personaldevelopmentmasterypodcast.com
If you loved this episode, you will like 12 Rules for Dentistry
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: One of the most common questions I get to the podcast is, WHICH SCANNER SHOULD I BUY? 'Hey, Jaz, I'm starting to make this venture into digital dentistry.' And it's overwhelming, right?Jaz’s Introduction:
There’s so much out there in terms of different types of scanners, different requirements, so which is the best scanner? Which is the most appropriate scanner for your clinic and your requirements? Well, that’s exactly what we’re covering today with Dr. Gulshan Murgai. If you haven’t listened already to IC027, it was his story that we covered and it’s titled, ‘He got Sued and he won.’ So essentially, it’s his entire legal case how it led to that. And we learned so many different medical legal lessons and it was just great to hear about his triumph. So, if you haven’t listened to that, please do listen to that. But if you’ve clicked on, because of the title of digital dentistry in which scanner to buy, there’s so much meat in here because Gulshan has tested and tried all these scanners, and now he’s gonna summarize for you which scanner he thinks is the best and why that might change depending on your needs and the needs of your practice. Now, Gulshan doesn’t keep it a secret or hide it or anything. He has got some financial interest in a digital scanning company. But I still think there’s so much of meat in terms of gaining the knowledge to know what are the differences in the different scanners and how you can choose which scanner to invest in. Let’s join Dr. Gulshan. I’ll catch you in the outro.
Main Episode:
Dr. Gulshan Murgai, after that really enlightening episode about how you triumphantly won the case and so many lessons shared. Welcome back to the Protrusive Dental Podcast. This group function today is to answer one burning question, and I’ve seen you lectured before. I know you’re super passionate about digital dentistry. For those people who haven’t listened to that episode yet, just introduce yourself again and why you are so involved with digital dentistry why you are so passionate about digital dentistry.
[Gulshan]
So, my name’s Gulshan Murgai. I’m a practitioner, general practitioner practice in Watford, Northamptonshire. So, I’m basically got exposed to digital dentistry as an undergraduate. So year 2000’s thanks to Professor Burke at University of Birmingham. He brought in the guys that were selling Cerec at the time. Sirona and I saw it as a final year undergraduate and I was blown away. I was like, oh my God, I need to have this. And he knew how it affected me so much so that in my finals, one of my finals case presentations, Prof Burke, was actually the one who was examining me, and he asked me a question, that the answer was digital dentistry. But I was so bloody nervous, I actually couldn’t get it out. And it was the difference between the highest mark and one down. But anyway, so having found that out, I thought, you know what? I’m going to carry on with this digital dentistry stuff. Imagine then I go through VT. During VT, I then see that Cerec has now become Cerec 3d. So, I was at a trade show at Excel or Birmingham, whatever, and I saw it and I was like, you know what? I need that, I want that. And that’s what I did. So, age 27, 2003. So 18, 19 months after graduatuion. I ordered my first Cerec system, and that’s what I talk about in some of my lectures.
[Jaz]
And what generation of Cerec do you have now? Before I ask you the big question, tell us about your kit. What kind of kit do you have in your practice at the moment?
[Gulshan]
Lots because what people need to know is that I am biased. Okay. I’m one of the few that actually highlights the fact that I’m biased because loads of us are, okay. Don’t forget, I’m a practitioner, so I have my clinical biases, but I’m a lab owner, so you know, I see a lot of work from a lot of people. All around the country that comes to our lab. And thirdly, I own a supply company, right? So, I sell stuff, yeah. And the difference between our supply company and others is that every single thing that we sell, we use in our other businesses, right? So as a result, so we are not what’s called a box mover. We don’t just sell something for the sake of things. We’re a specialist kind of niche company. It’s called Implant Solutions Direct. And the solutions part, that’s the important. Is that we found holes in the digital market years ago as we were kind of going through it, and I wanted to find solutions for implant dentists and solutions for restorative dentist to make things easy. So, the answer to your question’s not easy, but what I do use now is open systems that all talk nicely to each other. I n order to allow me to do my chosen workflow efficiently and profitably.
[Jaz]
Well, I guess when I get come to ask you which is your favorite system? You know, it’s the one that you’ll be using anyway, so it makes sense. And so, just to give those listening, watching a little bit about my background. I first got exposed to digital dentistry about four or five years ago. It was a TRIOS 3. I really enjoyed using it. Then when I was working in Richmond, I had the iTero and then we had the new iTero so I’ve used iTero and TRIOS. I have seen Cerec In Action, great bit of kit, the blue cam, which is the older one. Ah, I tried it. I found it really complicated to do, but again, I didn’t go any courses, so I should have you know, actually done the due diligence to learn, but I didn’t. But where I am now is we use iTero in the practice because we use Invisalign. So, when someone asks me, Gulshan, ‘Jaz, which scanner should I get?’ I’m like, I don’t know. Ask someone who knows what they’re doing, like Gulshan. But then I say, but for me, we use iTero because we use in invisalign and you can’t use other systems unless you’ve got a TRIOS 3 in the US I don’t know if you can or not, but in the UK, you may still be able to. So, we use iTero for that reason. But if you want to ask you that question now, which is the scanner, so imagine someone’s entering the world of digital dentistry because people speak very highly about the prime scan and how precise it is. People who got TRIOS very speak very fondly of that. There’s many iTero lovers. Which ones should we get? Now, by the way, I’ve seen the Medit being demoed by Neil as well and that’s a lovely bit of kit, lots of different softwares, so it’s too much choice out there. Which one should people opt for?
[Gulshan]
Yeah, so like I said, I’m biased. Okay, so big bias, I sell Medit, I’m global key opinion leader for them. So obviously I’m going to promote it. However, I’m a practitioner first and foremost, right? I make the larger majority of my income is doing clinical dentistry every week, right? So, despite what people may think, you know, that’s where my income comes from. So, my history, as I said, started with Cerec because we gotta pay tribute to the fact that they’re the guys that kicked it all off. You know, massive innovators at Sirona came up with this technology many years ago in 1985, right? So they started off, that’s where I started my history. But what have I used over the years? I’ve owned and used Carestream scanners. I had a iTero here up until recently. Obviously, I’ve got all of the range of medic scanners now, but we’ll come back to that. But apart from that, I’ve used TRIOS I’ve used some of the Chinese scanners because I’m involved in exhibitions and trade and things like that. People hand me scanners and say, here, try this. But also, at trade shows I get asked to compare. So, I’ve lost count of how many different scanners I’ve tried over probably the last three or four years, because now things are really growing. But given that exposure that I’ve had, I still choose Medit every time. It doesn’t matter tomorrow if I no longer work for them and no longer sell their products, I would still choose to purchase-
[Jaz]
But that’s why you’ve chose to work with Medit, but that’s why you’ve chose to stop Medit and work with it because, you know, you’ve done your research and whatnot and you liked that one, and that’s why you went with that. But, you know, I want firstly, extract from you what makes the Medit so stand out and what are the features of it. But then also, I mean, the other question we need to respect is, it’s a bit like buying a car. If you say, which car should I get? It depends, well, depends what you want from your car, right? And then it depends on the needs of the practitioner. So please tell us about the Medit, why you feel that is the best scanner on the market today. And then also what kind of practitioner should be getting the Medit and perhaps, someone like me who’s has an interest in Invisalign and therefore would I have to get iTero, therefore, and then give a miss on it? How does that work as well? So you can come until later please.
[Gulshan]
So, let’s deal with the Invisalign thing first, right? I am originally an Invisalign provider from 2005, so I wasn’t just in the early adopting digital implant dentistry, 2005. Okay. That’s a long time ago. Back when it was just all impressions, right. And I’m actually still pretty good at taking impressions, right? But scanners are the way forward. So I’ve got nothing against Invisalign. I’ve got a bunch of patients who still see me all of these years along who’ve got great long-lasting Invisalign results. But like people say on tv, there’s other products out there that do the same. Likewise with scanners, right? Whilst I’m promoting Medit scanners and I know it is all that anyone needs unless, they’re wanting to do Invisalign, and we’ll come back to that. You know, prime scan’s a great scanner. So is TRIOS. So is Carestream, right? At a certain level, Jaz, they all work really well. But here’s the big caveat. You already highlighted it when you said that you had trouble using the blue cap, right? That’s where I came in. So where I bought Cerec 2003. From 2006 to 2010, I was one of the primary UK trainers for all new users for Cerec, right? It was my responsibility to go around the country on behalf of Sirona, right? There were other researchers where I was working for Sirona, and I would go out there and I wouldn’t leave that practice or that practitioner until I felt that they were competent and confident in using it. Right? And they were paying for that service. And that’s what I do now as well, is that I don’t just sell products, but I don’t leave people alone until I know that they’re competent in its use. And that’s what’s different about us as a company, but also like with anything else in a practical vocation. Right. At uni, we were all tested in non-clinical, like phantom head situations before we were let lose on patients. The sad thing is that nowadays, if you’ve got the money, you can go out and buy whatever you like, but no one tests whether or not you’re competent at using that. You then say lots of negative things about it, but you don’t put in the caveat that, oh, by the way, I didn’t purchase any training and I didn’t go for any support because my ego is this big. Then you won’t have much positive things to say.
[Jaz]
It’s like buying a laser. You can buy a laser, but if no one’s ever shown you how to lose, use it, then you might think this is rubbish. And-
[Gulshan]
That’s exactly what happened to me when I bought my first laser. Actually, I didn’t use it for the first 14 months. Because the people that I bought it from didn’t have anyone to train you on it. Quite happily to take your money though. Right. And you’ll see this on social media as well, when I go up against a few other people out there and say, well actually we do things a bit differently in that I’ve been responsible for training people that are bought their hardware from other people and they’ve hadn’t had adequate training support. So that’s where I come in. That’s why Medit choose to work with me. That’s why exocad and other digital companies choose to work with me because I’ve got the clinical experience. I work in my own lab as well. So I’ve got the technical experience and that’s why they came to me and said, ‘We want you to sell our product.’ Right? And I said, ‘Uh-uh, not until I’ve tried it.’ So I tried the Medit alongside the Carestream and the Cerec for a period of time before I thought, you know what? This just does everything I need. I don’t need the others now. So that’s the first answer to your question. It does everything I need –
[Jaz]
In case anyone missed it, cuz you mentioned it there, there are other aligner systems available, so I know that spark are becoming very popular. We know SureSmile, et cetera. And those other ones I’ve mentioned, they are open source, so they will accept Medit scans and Carestream. So there’s a huge shift happening now. I think finally we have some competitors for Invisalign, it’s fair to say.
[Gulshan]
Well, exactly, you’ve hit the nail on the head. So what’s happening in the clear aligner market right now? The big boys Invisalign are starting to lose market share in the same way that, as we’ve mentioned now several times, Cerec used to have massive market share in digital dentistry as a whole. Right? And now you know their product on the market is Prime Scan. Right? And Primemill. So it is just the new name for what was Cerec. Right? And so yeah, there’s loads of systems are out there that work and really, you’ve gotta decide what works for you. Some people in this profession and others like to have their handheld, okay? They want closed systems where they know that there’s few mistakes to make, so they go down that route. Okay? Other people and I deal with a lot of dentists nationwide, worldwide. They like to be open and they like to basically do what works for them. They like to take things apart. You know how many dentists that are super nerds that’ll buy some technology, expensive technology, and when no one’s looking, they’ll try and take it apart. Right? They do that. They’ll throw that with software, they’ll do it with hardware, and I’m one of those, right. That’s why I became a Cerec trainer because I worked out how to break Cerec, right? And only you see, I had no UK based training either. I was on my own. That’s why we run this company in our education the way we do, cuz I don’t want anyone to feel the way I did at age 27, 28. I spent 62 grand on this system, right? My dad went crazy, right? Because I just bought the practice. I just bought a car, just bought a house, and then I bought Cerec, right? Imagine that’s why I was working six days a week, right? But I wouldn’t change it for the world, right? The point is, I had no one to rely on. I didn’t have someone I could pick up the phone and say, I’ve got a patient in the check. Can you help me with this? And if I could, there was a language barrier, German English, right? So I had a once a month call with them and basically it turned out after a few weeks, me telling them how I worked out how to break the system and I was teaching them about their hardware and software that’s why three years later, I was their train. So going back to Medit and new scan as a modern scanners. Now, don’t get me wrong, they all work. Like I said, first you’ve gotta choose closed system open system. Invisalign, iTero, kind of let’s say closed system, you’ve gotta follow their pathway. Other clear aligner systems are more open. You know, you don’t even need to use a branded system. What I say as a lab owner, please support your UK-based labs, right? Who can do the same thing for you. Build relationships with people in your country where you are working. And deliver that to your patients. That’s what I try to do. Right. So likewise with the scanners, I’ve chosen to work with a scanner company that’s massively innovative. The Koreans are like me in my company, Implant Solutions. They basically go to clinicians and technicians cuz they’re big in the lab site as well, and they say, feed us your problems. Tell us what you would like. And look at the support groups. Look at the medic support groups. You asked for something six, well, not even six months, three, four months later, it’s in the new software, right? So they really do listen and respond to their users. That’s one really massive thing. Openly, right? They take criticism on the chin. We’ve just spent an hour talking about risk management and saying sorry, and putting your hands up when things go wrong. Likewise, when, you know, Medit has been criticized in the past for various things in their hardware and software, you know what? They put their hands up publicly and say, ‘Sorry, our bad, let’s talk about this. Let’s work it out.’ You know, and that’s a big deal for a multinational, multi-billion dollar company to put their hands up and do that. The others don’t. Their egos are just too big. They don’t do it. So I like that because I thought that works for me cuz that’s more like me.
[Jaz]
It’s an example of a big company thinking like a small company.
[Gulshan]
Absolutely.
[Jaz]
All right. And that’s what makes it very endearing. And that’s what makes it the support network that it is.
[Gulshan]
Yeah, well, I’ve met all of the senior management, they all know me. I’ve met the CEO, and when you spend time with these people and you realize that it’s not about the bottom line all of the time, it’s actually a lot of it’s about how they make people feel and the solutions they’re providing, and that just works for me. Previously, I worked with, like I said, Sirona with Carestream. I’ve worked with the guys at iTero because of my connections through exocad and things like that. So, you know, they’re all good people. But you asked me why I chose this because emotionally, they’re brilliant support wise. There’s no one that can touch them. The hardware, they’ve got innovative technology in the hardware that nobody else has got. And then on top of that, look at what they do in terms of software, apps that are free to use, free to download.
[Jaz]
I’ve seen the software, they’ve got the Medit splint one that’s recently released and they’ve got so many others too, so what I’ve used before Gulshan is that one of my delegates on my, I teach splints and stuff and they had a patient who suggested that their bite had changed due to over eruption from wearing an NTI, SCi, et cetera. So I was able to overlay the two previous scan before the over eruption and after, and found that actually the teeth are matching up perfectly is the joint level change that’s happened. You see, so I use that actually on the software. So the crazy thing is you don’t even need to have a Medit to use that software.
[Gulshan]
Exactly.
[Jaz]
Which I thought, like, why are they giving this away for free?
[Gulshan]
Exactly.
[Jaz]
So I respect that a lot which is pretty cool. Now I’m sure a common question you get is about money, about costs. So in terms of a hierarchy I’m fairly sure that Prime Scan is like number one in terms of the most costly is that fair to say?
[Gulshan]
No, there’s some pretty expensive criteria models out there as well.
[Jaz]
Okay.
[Gulshan]
You gotta remember Jaz, that the Prime scan system right, is the replacement for Cerec. So really that system is designed to be a closed system where you have their acquisition unit and their mill, right? What they realized some years ago was, we are losing market share here. Right? So then they thought, okay, we better separate these and give people the option to just buy the scanner. Right? Which is where there’s Prime scan, right? And that’s why the name has changed. That’s why it’s no longer Cerec, right? Cerec gives you that thought that it’s a whole system. So yeah, prime scans are not exactly cheap, but remember they’re innovators. You know? There’s always gonna be people out there who think that if it’s expensive, it must be good. And that’s why, you know, Bentley Rolls Royce still sell their products, but yeah, you know, there’s some expensive criterias. If you want, I can sell you an expensive Medit, you know?
[Jaz]
And with iTero, just so, because we’re very straight talking. I think you might give a good answer here, is the whole caries detection bs or something pretty cool?
[Gulshan]
Okay, you’ve gotta understand my position here, guys. I work for exocad as well. Exocad’s parent company is a line tech, and Line Tech owns Invisalign, exocad iTero, and you know, they might even own Medit soon. So I’m not gonna publicly say anything against these. It works. I had it here. Right.
[Jaz]
Yeah.
[Gulshan]
What I can say, and I’ll say, and I’ve said it to everyone openly, is that, right there behind me on my dental chair, I’ve got a caries detection device in my camera, right? It’s this big, it’s very light. It’s on my chair. I can use it in a second. I can switch it on, right? I don’t have to have this big trolley or anything next to me, and I certainly didn’t pay a massive premium for it. Okay? What they’ve done is they’ve bundled a lot of technology into there, and that costs money, right? Because that’s, you know, they’ve created convenience. In the same way that Medit have done the same in some of their higher end scanners, there are more features in there that you’ve gotta pay for compared to some of the more budget scanners, right? It’s one of those things, Jaz, that you pay your money, take your choice. Not just in scanners, but also software. We talked about cars. It’s all so the same between Android and iPhone, right? It’s BMW and Mercedes. But just with scanners, there’s quite a few out there, just like there are with phones and cars. . So I think there’s more to it than that. You have to first beat to people and say, what do I want to achieve out of this? Right? So there’s some people in their particular point in their career where this is what they do and this is all they’re gonna do until they finish. There’s other people who say, well, like for instance, you touched on implants. If you are gonna do more implant dentistry later on, you wanna keep that channel open, right? If you are not doing clear aligners, but you want to, you know, go down there in the future, that’s an option. If you are an associate that works in four different practices and you need a system that’s mobile, right? So I need to, as a reseller, I need to listen to what you need, and then I can say, is this, or this option? And here’s the pros and cons on all of them, right? And you decide. Right.
[Jaz]
So it’s a fair summary Gulshan, if you don’t mind paraphrasing whatnot, is that all these systems are good, they’ll get you from A to B. A closed system. An example of closed system is iTero and therefore that has some limitations, but it’s a good scanner still. Nonetheless, if you want something that’s a open system and something that from you who’s tried all these softwares and scanners, you’ve really enjoyed using the Medit and that’s something that you speak very fondly of, but ultimately have that conversation with someone to find out what your needs and wants are to really match up, which is the best ideals scanner for you as an individual practitioner.
[Gulshan]
You’ve got it. Absolutely. What I will say is, this is, I mentioned the term earlier, which is called box movers. Right? Box movers are suppliers who, they don’t care what they sell as long as they sell something. I think you’ve understood me a little bit more since we’ve been talking today. I’m passionate about what I do and also what I sell. So I’m far from a box mover. I sell a particular software, particular hardware, because I’ve tried and tested it, right? I can show people how to get the best out of all of those things. Now, there are some great reps out there from great companies who might also say, but I can show you this, and this. So just be careful of people’s biases. You don’t have to buy for me or the next guy. You pay your money, you take your choice. For me, it’s about building relationships and for me, I easily build relationships with other dentists because I can relate. I’m still practicing it pretty much every day. Right? So that’s where our company’s different from others in literally I put it into practice every day. I have used iTero. It’s a good system, right? We shouldn’t say it’s closed. It’s partly closed, right? It’s a little bit-
[Jaz]
Because you can export STLs and stuff, but it’s just that-
[Gulshan]
Exactly. Okay. So, you know, there’s other systems that are more closed. So if you listen to my colleague, David Claridge, he had a word that he created some years ago is called Tropen, T-R-O-P-E-N. Truly open. And this is a thing. So, there’s tropen and then there’s fully closed, which is flosed. Okay. Which is something I came up with just to go against him. But, you know, find someone who’s passionate as you are about the kind of work that you want to do, and then sit down and talk about it. And if you do that, you’ll make the right decisions.
[Jaz]
That’s a great way to end it. And I think I just wanna add in there that from being involved as an associate, in practices where the principal was at that time, you know, making that, buying the first scanner. So I’ve been involved that, you know, two, three times where the principal was about to buy the first scanner actually three times, four times that’s happened to me. Oh my goodness! You know, whilst I haven’t been the key decision maker, they asked for my opinion, and I’ve seen what happens in the first few weeks after they buy a scanner. A lot of hand holding and support is needed. So if anything, my 2 cents is find someone who will support you. That could be a big company, that could be a small company, could be whoever. But as long as that support is guaranteed and someone who can ideally, I mean, I like the fact they’re a clinician and then, you know, if you support and then having that extra sort of nuances of you know, you did a whole lecture, on capturing sub ging ival margin and stuff. You talk about that. So yeah, so the, we should probably do another episode on that. By the way so, Gulshan, I really appreciate and now please tell us about your company cuz you’re obviously, you’re doing great things in Digital Dentistry now we can tell about your groups as well. You know, you run the exocad and stuff. So those who are interested in Digital Dentistry and learning and getting supported would love to know about that.
[Gulshan]
So our company, our supply company is called Implant Solutions Direct. Our other name is ISD Digital. Obviously, implant solutions are digital because actually our biggest customers globally, because we actually export globally are labs. Okay. Around the UK I supply around about 105, 106labs. So we’ve got a big relationship with them. We are going more and more into the clinical side with our scanners and our software, hence ISD Digital. We have our sister company, which is a full production crown and bridge lab that’s called 4D Ceramics. I’m intricately involved with that. I have staff, but also we do a lot of implant-based staff, guides, things like that. As far as where you can find information, follow me on Facebook and then you’ll get access to my pages. So I’ve got Medit worldwide, I’ve got Exocad Worldwide, and the group called Intraoral Scanners iOS, that’s also my management. I manage that group as well. So, about 10,000, 12,000 people all in across those groups.
[Jaz]
And different levels. Welcome beginners experience, that kind of stuff.
[Gulshan]
Oh, absolutely. And what I try to do Jaz, is try and get my users and other people to share their cases, right? Because of various politics involved. I don’t get to share all of my cases everywhere that I want to because people just believe that all I’m trying to do is sell something. So that’s why I said in the last podcast that we just recorded about the case, that I was pleased that it was allowed to go out on various groups because it wasn’t about me, it was about the system and how I kind of beat the system, right? It was nothing to do with me. And likewise, when I’m sharing clinical cases, I don’t just share the good ones, I share some of the bad ones too.
[Jaz]
Super important. And we should always appreciate that in education, to learn from other failures and those who are open enough to share the failures. So, amazing. It doesn’t surprise me at all, Gulshan. Thanks so much for giving your time and for both those episodes. So guys, if you know, hopefully it’s giving you a bit more ideas about scanners, what your individual requirements are and the importance of planning for support once you get it. Cuz the first few weeks are very frantic and it’s a bit like the laser. You know, sometimes what happens, You know what, I’ll just take an impression today and the scanner just sits there and I know it’s happened to my colleagues before. So, go all in. Commit and make sure you are well supported. Gulshan, thanks so much my friend.
[Gulshan]
Thank you. Great for the opportunity. Thanks Jaz!
Jaz’s Outro:
Thank you. Well, there we have it guys. Thanks for listening all the way to the end. It’s not just about the piece of machinery, it’s about the support that comes afterwards. It depends on how it sits in your practice. In terms of what will you be using it for? Personally, I have really come to embrace digital dentistry. I first started out with the TRIOS, then now iTero just cuz the circumstances of practice and my vertical preparations are scanned 99%. I very rarely use impressions just for some denture work. I’m using impressions. Otherwise, I’m pretty much digital and I think it’s great. I think this is the future. The future is here. And so, if you’re not embracing digital yet, does it really matter to me which scanner you get? No. I think for me it’s important that you actually start thinking about how to take the first steps into digital. And so, there’s lots of great people out there like Gulshan who can guide you, but it’s something that once you get into digital, you look back and you think, how did I ever not do scanning? How did I stay in analog so long? Now we know that analog has its advantage and it’s great, but now might be the time if you’re not already digital, to consider making that move. And I hope this episode gave you some information in terms of what are the different scanners out there and what are their strengths. Thank you so much for listening, and I’ll catch you same time, same place next week.
Ever considered moving to Dubai to practice Dentistry? Dr. Mark Georgy practiced in Abu Dhabi for 5 years, and Dr. Fraaz Ahmed moved to Dubai 5 days ago – on today’s episode we are lucky to get BOTH perspectives of life and Dentistry in the United Arab Emirates.
Fancy tax deductible Skiing + CPD next month? Check out Destination CPD by Mark Georgy
From qualifications to registration process and income potential, we covered it all in this episode.
https://youtu.be/KGCk3YcK-e0Check out this full episode on YouTube“You have to have your license already sorted out, a lot of people just won’t reply unless you have your license, which you can do remotely, you DON’T have to come in to the country (UAE)”
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Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this episode:
- 2:32 Dr. Mark and Dr. Fraaz introduction
- 6:46 Considering Dubai as the place for practice
- 10:34 Dental Health Authority (DHA) License
- 12:19 Taking risks of moving to other countries
- 13:54 Requirements for foreign dentists to work in the UAE
- 17:06 Dental Protection in UAE
- 19:22 Family-run clinic
- 22:05 Contractual issues abroad
- 30:00 Things to consider before moving abroad
- 33:34 Quality of life and schooling in UAE
- 37:26 Income tax and income levels in UAE
- 44:42 Daily life in the UAE
- 48:38 Language Issues
- 49:48 Advice in considering moving to the UAE
Enlighten Smiles sponsored this episode with their great whitening products and also their course flagship composite bonding course called Mini Smile Makeover, which is really heavy duty full sequence from peg laterals to composite veneers by the famous Dipesh Parmar.
If you enjoyed this, you might also like this episode The American Dental Dream with Dr. Kristina Gauchan
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: Did you know that the very first episode of Protrusive Podcast was about my experiences and Surinder's experiences when we were in Singapore? And that was kind of the reason why I started PROTRUSIVE DENTAL PODCAST. Jaz’s Introduction:Well, so many hundreds of episodes later, another opportunity has come to talk about moving to the UAE, from wherever you are in the world, be at US, Australia, UK, New Zealand, wherever you are, and starting a new life, a new career in the United Arab Emirates, think Abu Dhabi, think Dubai kind of thing. And those are where my two guests have got experiences from. And I’m really excited to share this episode, because we’ve got Mark, who was practicing in Abu Dhabi for five years. And we’ve got Fraaz, who literally arrived in Dubai, two days ago from the UK, and is living the entire sort of initiation process right now. And he’s hoping to get started working there next month in January.
So, a lot of takeaway points for anyone who’s even thought about moving to the UAE? What is it take? Are there other exams? What’s the income, like? What’s the tax situation like? All the things that you’d want to know, before you move out to the UAE to practice dentistry, funny enough, one of the the hygienist, Bev who I work with is also there now. I haven’t caught up with in a while. So I’m actually reached out to her. But there’s lots of people I know over the years, who’ve experienced dentistry in the UAE. And it’s a place that I’ve been to a fair bit, my wife actually grew up in UAE, and we’re going there again, on vacation. So it really piqued my interest, you know, my wife is actually expecting number two in summer.
So looking forward to a summer of sleepless nights. And one of the things that we are looking for in the future and a couple of years is a bigger place, because we’re in a cozy to bed, and we’re gonna need a bigger space. So before we decide on that, my wife was like, ‘But you know, Jaz you’re recording that episode with those two guys from Dubai, let’s just hear what they have to say before making a decision.’ So I guess it’s it’s on my wife’s mind. And I know for a fact that many of you listen to this podcast, young dentists around the world, the world is changing. And now we want to experience this lifestyle where wherever village or whichever city we grew up in, we have to reflect on whether that’s the place you want to practice your dentistry, and that’s the place we have to raise your children. And that’s a place that you want to retire. So the world is now your oyster. And you can call anywhere you like your home. So let’s listen to what Mark and Fraaz have to say about moving to the UAE and I’ll catch you in the outro.
Main Episode:Mark and Fraaz, welcome to this very special edition of Protrusive Dental Podcast. Great to have you. Mark I’ve known you since Dawson Academy days has been many years since I first met you. Mark just introduce yourself, if you don’t mind.
[Mark]
Thanks, Jaz. It’s great to be honest and honor. I’m a big fan and since we met in Dawson all those years ago. Yeah, so I’m a dentists, officially based in London. I’m a GDP I’ve got a special interest in endo, and went to Uni and King’s in London and graduated around 2009. And I’ve bounced around a little bit from working in Cornwall to London, then Abu Dhabi in the UAE for five years.
[Jaz]
And what about New Zealand? You mentioned New Zealand in our prior to that as well.
[Mark]
I did! Yeah.
[Jaz]
How do you skip on that? How do you miss that one? How do you forget?
[Mark]
A little bit of a nomadic lifestyle? Yeah, so I did six, it was more of a working holiday. So I didn’t count it as a proper place. But I did six months of kind of bouncing around New Zealand working enough just to have some more beer money, you know, to keep going. But yeah, that was fun, too.
[Jaz]
Amazing. And now obviously you’re based in Switzerland?
[Mark]
That’s right. Yeah. So I’m winding down my sort of practicing time in London to focus on being here. My wife works for the UN and so you know, so we decided to make Geneva, Switzerland our base It’s beautiful out here. So you know I had a camp in both foot for about a year and a half, two years. And I was commuting between London and Geneva which had its challenges but now I decided to really focus on being.
[Jaz]
Amazing and Mark for the for those of you who are who don’t know yet, Mark’s the one who’s behind this amazing ski trip in Morzine The Dental CPD destination, CPDs website, so please do check out the links below and also we’ll talk a bit more towards the end but anyone who’s up for a tax deductible ski trip there’s a few places left so come and join us if you can, but now I’ve also got Fraaz.
And Fraaz you talk about yourself man it was just the timing was just beautiful man. I saw your Instagram post and it was like one of those like bye UK, Hello Dubai kind of thing. Literally you at the airport I appreciate you so much for giving your time and you must be jet lagged and stuff to talk about your very recent now move you’re literally must or you probably jet lagged in the Dubai Mall right now.
[Fraaz]
No, to be fair, because I don’t have my three children here yet. So my children are about five o’clock which is what Dubai time nine at 9am. Anyway, so I’ve been enjoying the lions.
[Jaz]
Very good. I bet you are, Fraaz. Tell us a little bit about yourself or where do you qualify from and do a little background before I started picking up both of you in terms of finding out what is going through your minds.
[Fraaz]
So, I’m really your typical humble to GDP, so graduated from Liverpool 2012. When I’m working Southwest Wales for a bit, so back to the values that was good. I completed my masters in 2015, with Manchester University, restorative and aesthetic dentistry. Steven Davis was the guy who really got into TMD. So I love TMD now because of him, then there are lots of small courses during that time afterwards. But that’s not my formal sort of education, been bouncing around from Southwest Wales to then Manchester and Oldham. Went to Wigan for a good period of seven or eight years. And then before I’ve moved here, I finished a spell back home, home from his Cheadle, South Manchester of the year. Now I’m here. And I feel like I’m back right to the beginning.
[Jaz]
Yeah, well, you’ve been bouncing from Wales to Manchester, Cheadle. Whereas Mark’s been going from like, UK, New Zealand. Abu Dhabi. So you had different experiences. But let’s start right the beginning guys, right? So dentists listen to this, who maybe is now thinking about it, and I guess I would be lying if I said, I’m not interested. I am definitely interested. I’ll tell you why. I said to so my wife’s pregnant, we’re expecting number two. And I keep sending these links to my wife. Thank you. I keep saying these links. My wife say ‘Okay, check out this house. Check out this house.’ Because we live in a cozy, too bad and we need the space.
I’m thinking, you know, projecting two years forward, like we need the extra bedroom. And my wife has been really hesitant because she said, ‘Oh, Jaz, you told me that you’re recording this podcast episode. Maybe just hear what they have to say.’ So here we are. To any dentist who’s thinking about moving to UAE to be able to practice dentistry where do you begin? So let’s talk mindset. Mark let’s start with you. When you were moving to UAE you told me a little bit already but share it with the producer it you were it wasn’t just UAE you were considering few places you also considering Singapore and stuff. Why did you end up going to the UAE?
[Mark]
Right? Okay, so the backstory I guess for prompting the move was, you know, like I said to you earlier Jaz, I was in predominantly NHS practice in East London, which was great. As you know, and probably all of your listeners are familiar with that kind of Treadmill. Dentistry, it gets tiring physically, mentally, you’re kind of so I kind of drew a line in the sand. I was like, this is not going to work for me.
So we took the plunge, my wife and I were decided to take a kind of extended holiday slash sabbatical. We were bouncing around Southeast Asia for a few months. So while we were away I was we were both applied to jobs all over the place. And I was applying to jobs globally. I was applying to jobs in the UAE, to Singapore to see you know, where we wanted to end up. And while I was in Thailand, I’m one of the recruiters that I’d sent out my CV to has said, right, we’ve got an interview for a practice in Abu Dhabi. And I did the interview, you know, while I was on holiday over-
[Jaz]
Skype zoom kind of thing, yeah?
[Mark]
Yeah, exactly. That was kind of like the first preliminary one. I know. You know, they were happy with me. They wanted to see if we could take it forward. And then you know, it was helped by the fact that my wife has, has family there. So her parents were living there. So that was that kind of obviously made the decision.
[Jaz]
Parents okay, we said you family, I didn’t appreciate parents. That’s a big deal. That’s pretty cool.
[Mark]
Absolutely. Yeah. So we made the move much easier. You know, we had a base there, we’d already been a bunch of times to visit and things like that. So that was that was-
[Jaz]
And is that why Abu Dhabi and not Dubai, for you, personally, because parents were in Abu Dhabi?
[Mark]
Yeah, so the parents were in Abu Dhabi, which definitely helped. Dubai, and I’m sure Fraaz will probably already echo this. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are kind of two different animals. One is kind of the older, more sensible parrot. One’s the wild child. But, you know, they’re both super fun places to be with, you know, I’ve always liked and preferred Abu Dhabi. It just kind of, we were drawn into it, the green space and the seas, like kind of is the backdrop for everything really in the city. So yeah, that’s why we’re drawn that. But yeah, a couple of interviews later and you know, kept going and we ended up there. Yeah.
[Jaz]
Great. And Fraaz, ou’re obviously in Dubai right now. So you tell me did you go through a process of thinking about different places to move to and again, I guess my question is, why did you move from UK to now in Dubai and you’re obviously taking your family there as well? And did you consider any other places or was it always gonna be Dubai for you?
[Fraaz]
Dubai was actually my wife’s dream. And then this fully because the dream then changed as she got happy. Just live in the UK life. We will Welcome to UK when she got happy there, I was sort of like I want to do something else. Dubai really came along similar to Mark in the sense of we actually have family here. So that’s why it was the other location that’s easy to move to. My inlaws, I have a lot of in laws in Dubai. That’s the main reason for here. And then literally, it was over a phone call. So last weekend of June, my brother-in-law calls then goes, ‘We’re opening up this polyclinic. Do you want to join in?’ I’ve had my DHA license for a good, I think five or six years? Like, ‘Yep, let’s just do it.’ We just made the decision on the phone.
[Jaz]
What’s the DHA license? Is that something that you had, yeah?
[Fraaz]
Yeah. So, the Dental Health Authority, so the equivalent of sort of the GDC for Dubai.
[Jaz]
And how did you have one six years ago?
[Fraaz]
So they’ve got like a fairly simple website as he goes through like Cherian portal. You just follow the flowchart, submit your documents, certificates, things like that. You do have to do Prometric exam. So I just went to a like a center in Salford, did set of exam on there fairly straightforward. Yeah, that was it, then you just get your license. You have to get a job though, to make it active. So I actually still don’t have an active license yet until we get the practice up and running. Yes, it’s fairly straightforward. As long as you don’t mind the-
[Jaz]
It was always in the back of your mind, then? Because if you had this license, you must have at one stage had the intention or the desire in the back of your mind? Right?
[Fraaz]
Yeah, so it’s actually quite funny, because when I got the job in Cheadle, I did my NHS to private transition completely. And I’d given up on the sort of the Dubai dream because I just had a bit of an issue with applying for jobs I just didn’t quite get a sense of, let’s say professionalism was a bit different to how it was in the UK when it came to contracts. I’m not sure what Mark’s experience has been like over there. But I just thought this is how much hustle we’re having with jobs now, remotely. I totally want to, I was too scared to take the plunge, I would say, to move my whole family over, and then have contractual issues. That’s how it felt. And then it was just that June, that phone call where just the opportunity came up. And I was like, ‘Yeah, we’re going to regret it if we don’t try it out.’ So, I’m here-
[Jaz]
And one thing I want to see is on your Instagram, I see you know, you have some beautiful dentistry and looks like there’s no shortage of patients and stuff. And so did you feel as though you’re taking a big risk? Like imagine someone who’s got like, a steady income as a dentist, maybe a mortgage, I don’t know if you had one or not etc. and then to sell up and give up everything to move. That’s a big risk, in a way. I guess it’s helped by the fact that you’re moving to a family sort of venture, I guess. But tell me about your thoughts in that regard?
[Fraaz]
Yeah, so I think financially, yeah, there’s a financial risk, but I think over, although I know I think to a lot of my older colleagues, I would still be see it as like a fresh new dentist. I feel like after what, just over 10 years experience? I feel like you build that confidence in yourself, you know what you can do. I’m quite confident in the level of customer service and Dubai, a lot of it is about service. So I know that I can bring that service to here. It’s just about you got people through the door. I think we’ve got the location right. And then we’ll see. I think another person that helped me was I don’t know if you’ve had James on one of your podcasts already. James Martin, so-
[Jaz]
Yes.
[Fraaz]
He was somebody as well, I was speaking to a lot. And he changed a lot of my mindset with the whole thought of money. So you realize it’s quite, it’s something which you don’t really have to have much of an attachment to? There’s always ways to make money. So you do what you love. And you’ll always find a way.
[Jaz]
Well done for chasing your dream or as a wise man, you chased your wife’s dream. So even more brownie points and whatnot, so well done. And both of you, I did right by your significant otherss sounds like. So before we-
[Fraaz]
I hope so.
[Jaz]
So before we come on to the spicy contractual things, which definitely piqued my interest. Mark, what are the requirements, like if dentists in the UK is thinking, ‘Okay, I want to go like, for example, when I had to go to Singapore, I had to like, agree to a position, I had to get some paperwork with the SCC, but there wasn’t the exams to do.’ I guess Fraaz already touched on it. But do you want to summarize in a paragraph? So what are the requirements that you need tickbox as a UK and maybe international dentists to work in the UAE?
[Mark]
Sure. So kind of, for us, that there’s quite a simple process in terms being and I can talk about the HAAD, the Health Authority Abu Dhabi, which has now transformed into the DOH, Department of Health. So they operate kind of independently. So between Dubai and Abu Dhabi, there’s two separate governing bodies. The first step in terms of is your accreditation. So you have to go through something called the data flow, which is like where you submit your papers, work through, you know, it’s an outsourced company that will validate everything, all of your degrees and your references and things like that. In terms of exams, there’s for Abu Dhabi. There is nothing that you have to do if you’re graduate from the UK, Australia, New Zealand and a couple of other countries, I think the US as well. So from that side, it’s fairly straightforward. The requirements are just that you have all of your paperwork is in order.
So I actually applied without having had the job, you know, in my hand, and you can get through all of the paperwork, it’s kind of get somewhat accredited. And then finally, the last step is once you have the job, you kind of attach that on to your license. And then you license and gets attached to a facility, which is kind of obviously the practice that you’re going to be working. If I missed anything out, I think that’s, that’s pretty much it. It’s a straightforward process, it is timely, it took a good like three or four months minimum to kind of get through all of that, because they will send back things for more rubber stamps.
[Jaz]
That’s an important point, because that’s three to four months of loss of earnings and something that a dentist should keep in mind and then plan for and accommodate for. Fraaz, anything want to add to that, because it’s all very fresh in what you’re living through right now?
[Fraaz]
Yeah, the only thing I would say to add, well, I wish I knew there was a Prometric exam for the DOH license, because I think it’s quite easy to then switch them across, I believe. So I would have maybe done it that way around. But anyway, it is done now. And regards to, if anybody’s thinking of it, because of the amount of months it takes later, they do come back and forth with small tweaks you need to make. My advice if you’re thinking get your license done now. Iit’s not. It’s not too costly. I can’t remember the exact cost, it’s on the top my head but I think it was less than 1000 pound when you equate it for the license. So if someone’s thinking of it, just go and do them get your two or three licenses sorted-
[Jaz]
And that’s a one off rather than an annual release renewal. Right? So one off,
[Fraaz]
There is an annual renewal fee but it’s fairly inexpensive. I think it was a few 100 dirham, which is-
[Jaz]
Oh it’s like GDC money, it’s like-
[Fraaz]
No.
[Mark]
No.
[Jaz]
That’s a lot of benefit.
[Fraaz]
You have three UDAs. All three UDAs pays for your renewal.
[Jaz]
You know what, on this topic, and this might be complete rumor, this might be false, right? And this might be, I might be talking complete garbage. But one of my old principals told me that some of these Arab countries, that there is no such thing as dental protection and stuff because if something bad happens, something wrong happens. It’s Inshallah, that they say that it’s what it was meant to be. Is that correct?
[Fraaz]
Mark, I think you’re probably in a better position than I am since I’m at the beginning of the journey.
[Mark]
Okay, well, yeah. So, I mean, there is indemnity, but I think it’s related to the facility rather than the clinician. I know, certainly, that I didn’t have indemnity that was directly associated to me. And my practice owner was kind of deducting a small fee, but it was nothing like what we’re used to paying in, in the UK. I mean, I have also heard stories of you know, you know, surgeons that, you know, if something goes wrong, they’ve got the passport, and then they leave the country. I don’t think, I think those are all urban legends. I don’t think they’re actual reality. But yeah, I think that certainly that the level of litigation that clinicians face in the UK is not not there, in the same way.
[Jaz]
Like in Singapore, they had dental protection stuff, but my fee was like, a quarter of what we would be paying here, basically. And that’s how it was and even then, it was like, a must, it must have been compulsory, I guess. But it was very rare for litigation to be at the top of someone’s mind as a dentist and I imagine it’s the same there.
[Mark]
Yeah, I mean, I think in the same way that you practice defensively or you practice carefully and you always try to do the best for your patients. It goes without saying right? That’s how you get to operate in anywhere.
[Jaz]
Just because you don’t have it doesn’t mean you end up being reckless. Of course you’re supposed to stay true to your ethics and whatnot, but it’s just a requirement wise it’s good to know that okay, maybe a medical legal, just wanted to get the medical legal landscape, I guess.
[Mark]
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s different in the sense that you know, I didn’t pay any dental indemnity protection while I was there are that was significant. It was only coming out of, it was not even noticeable. So yeah, it’s definitely not the same figures that we were looking at in the UK.
[Jaz]
Sure. And for us, what’s next for you now? So you got your license years ago, in a way and now you’re waiting for it to become active. Now tell me about this polyclinic, this sounds like a family kind of, are they doctors? Are they creating a clinic with different specialities?
[Fraaz]
So my wife and her sister or two sister they’re all chiropractors. So two of them obviously my wife comes over. They will be having the chiropractic side in the polyclinic. This is where I think if Steven Davis just does listen to this, he might be cringing a bit because I incorporate them into my TMD wear. As to do a podcast on that, I think chiropractors of TMD. So they’re there.
[Jaz]
Let’s make that happen for us. And we’ll get your wife on, we’ll have chat again about that, you know, you definitely piqued my interest. And we need to geek out on TMD stuff for sure. Yes, carry on.
[Fraaz]
Sounds brilliant. We’ve got like a medical GP, obviously very different to the UK, because all insurance based here, or just pay as you go, then we’ve got some aesthetic sites like laser hair removal, like the HydraFacial stuff. That side of everything I’m not really getting involved in, that’s my sister in law’s husband. So I just called him, he’s just a very good businessman. So he’s got a couple of yachts here and car hire. And this is his next venture. And then I’m basically essentially similar to a typical UK setup where I’m almost renting the space and doing my own thing within the polyclinic.
So with those, we have a license on the six specialities on the clinical already. And we need to now get the radiology license and then the dental license will be something we’re doing afterwards. So we’re doing that now. We’re currently in the process of it. Once that’s granted, then I can attach myself while I’m attached with the license on the practice, and that I can attach myself my personal license to be able to work as the dentist inside the clinic, if that makes sense. So I have like a flow diagram of how everything’s attached.
[Jaz]
Sure, sure. I mean, your situation is very unique. If you want to go down, the more Mark way of applying to a cold practice, someone you don’t know, principal who’s looking kind of thing, essentially, is they probably have to do a bit of paperwork, you have to do a bit of paperwork, and they sort of need to sync together to activate the license. Is that a good gross summary?
[Fraaz]
Yeah, to my knowledge, yeah. So as I got that far with a few job offers, where we got to the contract stage, and that’s where everything sort of fell through. However, it was just that they just need to activate my license attached to the clinic as Mark pointed out before.
[Jaz]
Fine. Now, before I ask you about the contractual issues, I have a very good friend of mine, who practices I’m not gonna say in which country, but country we all know very well. And then he also considered going to Dubai. And now I’m thinking very carefully. Should I continue or not? I’m going to continue. So he was Indian background. But he had a very good Queen’s English. He had the Queen’s English, okay. And so he felt really betrayed when he went to Dubai and having some interviews by principals and stuff. Because this is what the principal said to him. He gave him a contract, which was he actually no, he didn’t give him a contract. He considered it but it didn’t, because this is what he said to our our brown skinned Indian dentist. He said to him, ‘If I shut my eyes, and I give you the contract’, basically, he’s trying to come say that he can’t decide where he’s is an Indian dentist, who is your British dentist, basically.
So it’s racism there basically incident that will either contract or give you either offending the Indian or offending the Brit. Because, you know, I can’t believe that when I open my eyes, you’re a brown guy, but you speak such good English, that’s kind of direction was going and I’m not saying that all principals like this. But that was one N equals one experience that with that I heard of him, and then he end up going to different country, he’s thriving, he’s doing very well. So that’s one thing that I had heard, obviously, might be very different to the kind of contractual issues that you’d come across. And the professionalism, you mentioned, that word professionalism was a bit different. And that’s, you know, funny enough the experience I had heard, so tell me Fraaz and Mark, any stories that you have anything like be careful with this or any lessons?
[Mark]
Fraaz, I’ll let you take this one first.
[Fraaz]
So my experience is fairly limited. Of course, I know, racial issues, I understand where you’re coming from, but there’s no issues of prejudice from that. My contractual issues were more when I was looking for a job or how to be quite plain about it, I pretty much told the two jobs that I was going for, that I needed to come on a similar salary to what I was earning in the UK, in order to be able to fund and keep my family lifestyle, the same it was at that time. So we’ll try to figure a way where we could see if I did actually earn that amount every year-
[Jaz]
Of retainer? On your first few months that we had that thing, we had six months retainer that, okay, if you grossed above it, you get more, but as a minimum, just to help you settle in you have that. So it’s a good thing to have, I think when you’re moving abroad, and I think it’s very fair that you asked for that.
[Fraaz]
Yeah. So I think they were trying to work out how they’re going to put that in the contract. And then the two clinics I applied for, there were then I’ll speak like a general dentist from the UK. He was like the manager you could call it and they were owed by saver, the businessman that one was there from different countries. We’ll try keep it as anonymous as possible. And I think it was the communication between there that they had issues. So it just came to where there was just delays and delays. I think so do you have a contract and other contract? And then it’s just mutually we’re like this is just not going to work out.
So let’s just leave it so that was with those two jobs. It turns out the racial prejudice though. I’ve not felt it personally. Obviously, this is my own clinic. So are we from a social media marketing and so on? I’ve not had any, I’m gonna have a feeling of that either. So for me personally, you know, I don’t have any stories, but I feel like especially where Dubai is now is even different to where I used to visit 10 years ago. But this way, I think Mark can probably give a lot more insight and knowledge on two things.
[Jaz]
Yeah, Mark, tell us about actually be not only any contractual issues better than actually being a wet thing, a dentist in the UAE in Abu Dhabi.
[Mark]
Okay, so well, I mean, so in terms of the my working environment, and you know, the practice, just to give you a bit of background of where I was working, because my situation was a little bit unique as well. And the practice I was working for was owned, and, you know, by just two brothers that were working in the practice, so we had an orthodontist who was working in the practice, and, you know, prosthodontist, that was working in the practice, and they were brothers, one was like, CEO, and the other guy was like, in it. So they cared a lot about their patients, they cared a lot about, you know, the equipment, the materials, everything, and how the practice was operated. So, I think a lot of the problems where people may encounter issues with these contracts and things like that is potentially where there’s kind of, I guess, a separate business entity that has got no relation to the dentistry and-
[Jaz]
Like a corporate, right? Like-
[Mark]
Yeah! Corporate.
[Jaz]
You’re kind of describing a family run clinic versus a corporate really?
[Mark]
Absolutely. Yeah. So and, you know, the corporate jobs, you know, exist in clinics, and they exist in hospitals in the UAE. So you know, you can find fine, every permutation of that. And I think the family run business in the UAE is probably getting smaller as a proportion of clinics. So, you know, I was lucky to, you know, effectively by chance, stumbled upon that opportunity. And not only that, you know, we had a polyclinic in the sense of dental polyclinic, we had an endodontist, periodontist, you know, pediatric specialists. So, everything-
[Jaz]
Were they all trained within UAE or did these dentists qualified from around the world?
[Mark]
Yeah. So they’re all from all around the world. Our endodontist was from Turkey, my pediatric specialist was raised to do sedation clinics with was trained in the US, but he was originally Libyan heritage. We had prosthodontists from Syria, the orthodontist and the other owner were both Palestinian. We have Lebanese Periodontist, so it was great. I mean, they’re all from I guess, you could say the Middle East and Middle Eastern heritage. But yeah, we had a very intimate-
[Jaz]
I love that about Dubai, man. I mean, guys, you guys might know this, but maybe I’m saying it wrong. But I think one in five of the people in UAE are actually Emirati, like maybe that’s the wrong stat, but something like that, right, like, so people are from all around the world. And I remember being on holiday in Dubai, and being in this lovely restaurant and the South African couple were eating next to us. And the man who has been there for like 20, 30 years described Dubai as Disneyland for adults. And I’ll never forget that.
[Mark]
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. It is a little bit like that. Yeah, you did. The Emirati population is only 20% of the full of the whole country. So yeah, they’re a minority. But, you know, it’s an amazing place in that sense. And, you know, I have never experienced that kind of racial prejudice, it’s sad that the people do, I’m sure it exists it probably in the way that it does everywhere. But you know, luckily, it was an issue and I think it’s not something that’s common, but I’m sure it does exist.
[Jaz]
Hey guys, just interfering here with this message from Enlightened Smiles to good people with Payman Langroudi et al, who do such great whitening products but of course, their course, their flagship composite bonding course, MSM, Mini Smile Makeover, which is really heavy duty full sequence from peg laterals to compensate veneers caused by the famous Dipesh Parmar. And the wonderful thing about that course is that once you go in at once, you can go again and again for free, which is one of the best highlights I think any course has to offer. So if you’re looking for a composite course do consider Dipesh and Mini Smile Makeover. And thanks again to enlightened for supporting Protrusive, back to the episode.
Yeah, but I’m kind of glad I didn’t get it out there in terms of like a Just be careful kind of thing in case you come across this but yeah, hopefully it is just a one off kind of thing. And it’s not going to affect anyone, we kind of covered already in terms of processes and how long it takes, make sure financial advice, make sure you have four to five months worth of supply to feed yourself and your family before you go out there. If you were to do something like that, before you get your affairs in order. And anything I just want to add so far before we now talk about quality of life, which is what life is about right? It’s not about yes, it’s about the dentistry, is so important. But you know, how can you nurture and raise children in a country like that the school system, the income, all these things, but before we get on to the fun bits, anything you guys want to add in terms of contractual getting to work there, the systems or anything like that?
[Fraaz]
I think in terms of jobs themselves, I just speak to a lot of dentists who are already here, I think it’s very limited with applying for jobs when you’re not in the country, for a couple of reasons. So number one, I think you almost now. So given you have to have your license already sorted out, a lot of people just want you to reply to unless you have your license, which can also remotely, you don’t have to come into the country, which is great or-
[Jaz]
That is golden advice right there, the thing that you told me.
[Fraaz]
And then number two would be if you are really serious, and you can’t take the financial hits to come over, maybe some of the busier times or busier periods, unless you physically present yourself to this sort of clinics after do some research. Because a lot of people in Dubai will just go jobs like that they literally walk in with a portfolio and be like, I want a job, let’s negotiate type of thing is from people I’ve heard secondhand, but I’ll show Mark, if that’s similar to what you would say or something a bit different for your experience.
[Mark]
My weigh in was a little bit different. But you know, I think as you said, for us, I think no one will give you a look in without the license because it can be such a long, lengthy process that will filter out so many people. That’s something that you definitely have to have, you know, 80% done or pretty much done. And then I think it’s in the same way that you select any job I think, a little bit of reflection and time taken to choose a good fit is important, especially important when you’re moving abroad as it is in the UK.
[Jaz]
Guys, episode one of the podcast is all about my experiences moving to Singapore and came back and at the time I talked about the Singapore dental classifier on the SCC website, there was like this monthly PDF that would come out with all the sort of different vacancies. Where do you begin to look for a job in the UAE as a dentist? Is there a community forum? Is there something that’s like the BDA equivalent like a website? Is it indeed? Or I don’t know? You tell me.
[Fraaz]
I use them. Indeed. Just Google jobs with the main two. And then through some of the dentists in Dubai, they’ve got like a British dental Whatsapp group, which I still need to get myself into. There are people just post on there. People just post on the WhatsApp group like looking for a dentist and we know anyone. There’s not so much of how in the UK we’ve got like Facebook groups and what I tend different Facebook groups among dentists, so if you have an argument of one dentist, you can join another one. You don’t really have that over here. As such, there isn’t like a UK or British Dental Group or Facebook, to my knowledge that everyone sort of uses, dollar mark Wales you used?
[Mark]
I mean, the only other one that I can think of there’s a golf based site called bayt.com, which I think they post jobs on but and then actually, you know, I send my CV out to recruiters so the recruiters would have actually called me when the opportunities came up. And that was how I got in.
[Fraaz]
I think, just to be careful of, just last a tad is there are quite a few scams that go around as well. And some of them can be quite realistic because there’s just as you mentioned rubber stamps before then they love rubber stamps over in Dubai. So they’ll send you lots of official looking things. So you have to be careful as somebody who can be quite tricky scams. Yeah.
[Jaz]
That is really valuable, man. That is good to hear that. Well. It’s sad to hear but it’s good to have our wits about us and antennas.
[Fraaz]
See that Mark? Mark, I think enjoys a rubber stamping. Group of stamps.
[Jaz]
I think you both have been through enough rubber stamping. Right. Let’s talk about quality of life. You both got three children, right. So I know Mark, your youngest is two. Fraaz, how old your youngest, and your eldest?
[Fraaz]
So they’re five, three, and one.
[Jaz]
Wow. You’ve got such a young families. That’s amazing. So I mean, you bet. I mean, Mark, you’ve already experienced a schooling system there to some degree. Fraaz you already see at the very front of your mind, you’re thinking about where my kids going to school and stuff. So a lot of dentists when they’re moving, a lot of people in general in any career when they’re moving, they’re either at the very beginning of their career, or maybe towards the end of the career. So children come into the factor for to those young dentists maybe starting a family and stuff. So how does it work?
Schooling, I’ve heard conflicting things I’ve said schools can be very expensive, but at the same time, I was saying to Mark to get domestic helpers is like, amazing. I get nannies and stuff very accessible. So Mark, let’s go with you. What advice do you have to a dentist who’s thinking about taking their family like you guys did to UAE?
[Mark]
Sure. So we had actually had both two first kids while we were living in Abu Dhabi, my eldest Jonah started school there. So we had him in the lease in Abu Dhabi, which is the French schooling system. And, you know, the quality of the schools is amazing. The teachers in our school certainly were all civil servants from France that were there working there. So you had and it’s the same for the British schools. So they’re all privately funded schools. So you have an American Academy, you’ll have B sack which is the British schools schooling system.
So wherever you’re coming from, you can actually almost transplant your kids. And they can have the same sort of educational continuity that you had. That they were having while they were back home. So the schooling is good, it’s expensive. And there is competition. I think the competition is even tighter in Dubai to get places. So people you need to apply early to get spots, but you know, your kids can get in everywhere. In terms of fees. Yeah, the fees are not cheap, but you know, equivalent to, let’s say, private schooling in the UK, I think.
[Jaz]
Okay, they are similar, they’re not like astronomical out of reach kind of thing. Like, if someone’s already paying for private school in the UK, they could probably then also transfer that to Durham’s and afford a school in the UAE. Is that fair to say?
[Mark]
Absolutely. I mean, I can give you a rough ballpark, I think we were paying about 30,000 dirhams for our son’s school. So and that was like, for the French system. So I don’t know what the other schools in Dubai are like, probably the range is big. And I’m sure you can pay up to 100 per year if you want to-
[Jaz]
Of course, so Fraaz, what are you thinking for your children? Have you found a school ready for your eldest?
[Fraaz]
Yeah, so the eldest two will, because in January, there’ll be six and four. So they’re, they’re going into the January, we find a school for them. Echo what Mark said about the competitiveness. January seems to be a decent time because a lot of people leave the UAE and new people sort of join just seems to be the way the system is over there. So places do free up. So we’re quite lucky. So we’ve got our places in school we wanted and they’re with their cousins, because I’ve got cousins the same age.
So yeah, so we’ve been quite lucky though. Most of our family helped my toast my sister in law did all of that. All I did was, have you found the school was good, but wife, a sister in law communicated all I did was to deposit by let’s transfer it that’s all. I was just transferring the money. That’s about it. I think in terms of cost, I think maybe a little bit higher than the average of the UK but not much more because my eldest two who are already in private schools at the moment this may be in great British pounds maybe two or 3000 pounds difference over the year per person so I suppose it’s not a crazy jump are a-
[Jaz]
Little bit dearer. But I guess the elephant in the room is, there’s no income tax. Let’s just get that out now. There is no income tax now. Have I got that wrong or right? There’s no income tax in UAE. Right?
[Fraaz]
No, there will be a 9% corporation tax on businesses come June. Next year. That’s coming into effect. But I suppose like the UK just find a good accountant. Miles away. No. So way the system.
[Jaz]
Amazing. Well, that’s one good thing. In terms of income levels, though, you know, when we talked about the first episode, when I called with Singapore, and when my guests are in there talked about what you can earn as a dentist in Singapore, it was really important that we reflected a range because if you ask how much you can earn the UK, you’re gonna have a range, right? Associated with a monthly take home will be in a wide range, it could be from 3000 to 40,000.
In the UK, it could be, right? If you think about it, so maybe not as wide as that. But as a remuneration kind of concept. Do you think you can live the same lifestyle, if not better in the UAE during the same time dentistry that you’re doing here? Or is it going to be a bit more of a squeeze on your finances moving to UAE as far as you get the vibe and as far as you feel? God, Mark, you go first? Because you-
[Mark]
Okay, all right. Yeah. So I’ve done time there. Yeah. I mean, I think you can definitely match your salary in the UK. So I didn’t really take any hits in terms of what I was taking home.
[Jaz]
Like the net, right? Because the gross might be low in Income tax. Right? So we’re talking net?
[Mark]
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. So if we’re talking net, maybe it was effectively is about the same. I think the key thing here is also makes a big difference what the environment and the system that you’re working with. So for example, our practice was mainly treating Emirati patients. So we had an Emirati base and we were treating using one particular kind of insurance or mainly one kind of insurance.
So one thing to this important to note is the patient base wherever you’re going, because if they change the insurance rates that they pay out to you that can impact your pay almost overnight. Right. And that happened while I was there. So but you know, as I arrived, and towards the end of where I left, yeah, it was matching matching what we earning in the UK. So that’s your same range that you could have in the UK exists.
[Jaz]
Thank you and Fraaz, what are you expecting because obviously you haven’t worked there yet. So what are you kind of expecting? It’s scary, I’m sure but what have you got in terms of financial planning?
[Fraaz]
So I think in terms of like, I think with like dentistry, going back a little bit, you’ve got different personalities. And I think of applying the same personalities. So going back to the big DF, so like, VT purse, I was type person, I said, I need to become good at extractions. So I don’t care what that radiograph says, I used to go for everything. And I got myself to a lot of problems. But that’s how I learned maybe dangerous in the UK climate, but I got through it. And I learned a lot, so very much sort of going in with that similar sort of approach. So I’m trying-
[Jaz]
You’re just focusing on the quality of dentistry and in a good advices, you’re gonna see, you’re gonna hopefully, see that reflected in income over time.
[Fraaz]
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I’ve made contingency, obviously, got my financial sort of plans in my mind of, you know, what your thresholds of how long you can sort of live for and so on. I mean, I sort of haven’t tried to too much look at the other markets. Obviously, you’ve done your normal, you’d almost have to compare yourself. But I almost feel as though like it with me. If you look at everyone else, sometimes you may confine and restrict your own ideas. Sometimes it’s good to let your mind just go, what do you think is right, and do what you think is best if you have the confidence. And then you’ll tweak it. So my first child wants is, I call it my tweaking 12 months, I’ll learn and then we’ll take it from there. So my assumption at the moment is I don’t know.
[Jaz]
That’s totally fair. I mean, I wouldn’t expect to know all the answers, but it’s good inspiration for someone who might be thinking of moving there in terms of okay, what to keep in their mind. So, I guess a summary of that is yeah, the earning potential is there. Would you say and here’s interesting when you say, based on you Fraaz, your perception and Mark your experience, in terms of the ceiling, in UAE?
Do you think it’s higher for income in terms of if you look at the averages in the UK, from your colleagues and stuff from what you feel. And then perhaps a ceiling? And you are you do you feel as though the ceiling might be higher because of this whole you know, you see on Netflix, Dubai blinging stuff, and it’s a very affluent place, and maybe the top denture you’re doing, is that a fair perception?
[Fraaz]
HSC Mark, before you answer that, if I give you my perception, and we’ll see how that lands with your experience, sure. Because it might be different to all so because in my mind, generally what I’ve learned is, end of the day, even in the UK, you’re going to hit the ceiling. See, it’s it’s hard to put a finger on it, until you make it into a business which then you’re almost no longer a dentist, you become a businessman and your dentistry is a secondary, you either open a practice or whatever dental type of business you go into, or you hire associates, things like that. And I feel the same exact same thing with Dubai, just like Dubai is a place where Dubai is of our business. How would you meet it? You moved to Abu Dhabi, that’s how I understand it.
[Jaz]
Mark, what do you think about that?
[Mark]
Yeah, I mean, I think you first kind of knocked it right on the head, you know, that there is probably a ceiling that you are going to achieve with being an associate in the same way that you probably will in the UK. And that ceiling can be super high for some people that are putting in implants, you know, eight hours a day versus someone that’s, you know, doing our simple class twos, but, or not so simple class two. But you know, that’s in the nature of it. But yeah, you I think the word of caution, I would say is that it’s, you know, people have this perception, and it’s probably a well crafted perception of the UAE and Dubai that they sell an image of the streets being paved with gold. And as soon as you come here, it’s out of your pockets.
And, you know, you start going to the vending machines to buy gold bars, and you have a cheater in your car, you know, some of these images do exist. That’s there. It’s not something that there is a real Dubai and a real life and there’s like people that are kind of living a normal life and that’s kind of the reality of moving anywhere, right like and Dubai or Abu Dhabi is no exception. There’s normal, normal life that’s going on. And I think by moving there, you’re not suddenly going to be erupting and cast.
[Jaz]
Yeah. And then when I remember when I moved to Singapore for work, and I had a great time there. But then I had to keep telling myself that whilst I’m here in Singapore on holiday, I need to appreciate the holiday is not real life, and that your real life experiences are going to be different to experience on holiday, you won’t be eating out lavish every single day. You gotta get you know, think about and visualize what daily life might be like. And I suppose that’s important to keep in mind when you go to visit a place I’m sure you guys would agree. The other thing I want to cover is final bits is like daily life in the UAE, like the heat in the summer is unbearable, they say and also in terms of the timings, is it right that a clinic would open maybe in the morning and then take like a four or five hour siesta kind of thing and then open the evenings, Mark what was your hours like?
[Mark]
So our hours were not like that. Actually, we worked. So when I first arrived to Abu Dhabi, we were working six days a week, which was at back then very normal. So we were working. And we only had Friday off. I was wanting to convince my boss that we have to close on clothes, what an extra day. So we’re going to have a two day weekend. And now I think officially, actually, so where it was a Friday, Saturday weekend, I think it’s shifted now in the UAE. So you’ve got to find it, you know, Saturday, Sunday weekend. So that makes things a little bit easier. The work hours are long, but no, we didn’t have, you know, the siesta time in the middle of the day. And it was a normal, sort of, I think we started at 10 and finished at six or seven, something like that. So that’s kind of how our clinic was run.
[Jaz]
Fraaz, what about you in terms of the jobs you apply for and also the polyclinic, in the future, have you decided on timings?
[Fraaz]
I’m actually still in the process of deciding. I have come to understand that if you don’t open a certain hours, which can be quite early morning and late afternoon, early evening, then you are really going to miss out on sorts of clientele so I’m still deciding at the moment. I like to my take on an associate and so on. So I’m not to set but I think we will be doing a similar pattern to what you said maybe not four or five hours, but a couple of hours close in the middle of the day.
But everyone do the school runs and so on because Dubai is a bit early than some of the American timing. And they will probably reopen but I’m still yet to decide. But I’ve come here with the mentality of for the first few years it’s gonna be like, it’s gonna be hard work not used to my nice cushy associate four and a half day nine to five and 9 to 5 and 9 to 1 as it was in Manchester, with my clinic given me all my patients and yeah.
[Jaz]
Yeah, I’m excited to follow your journey, Fraaz. I have every faith in from what I’ve seen so far. So now, I wish you all the best and my friend honestly, we all we’re all rooting for you everyone listening right now. We’re all rooting for you. Exciting story. And again, so thankful that you gave up your time fresh in Dubai right now and how exciting that we had your sort of input from that as well. I guess the final bits to talk about now before we wrap up this podcast is any final bit of advice that now you’ve thought of now that we’ve discussed everything, to anyone who’s probably thinking of moving to the UAE for work from wherever they are in the world US, Australia or wherever, anything that we haven’t covered yet that you want to leave everyone with, because we’ve talked a little bit about lifestyle.
I mean, one thing we didn’t discuss a lot about is having a nanny and a domestic helper, but from what I understand that’s quite a thing there. That’s quite common place to have that for childcare, and that really helps massively, but anything else on that vein, either work related, or culture or quality of life related that you want to leave the listeners and watchers with, Mark?
[Mark]
I mean, you know, I think we’ve covered most of it, I guess, you know, the UAE did give us a really great five years, we were privileged to enjoy a really great time there. I think the one of my motivating factors and was being able to be out in nature, and I think, you know, it isn’t necessarily the as I said before, the bling bling culture doesn’t have to be the basis of you moving there while it exists. You know, we did a lot of camping trips in Oman and diving trips and Oman and things in the beach and you know, hiking mountains and things like that. So we had great communities and in you know, in the gym and things like that. So there are still cheap beats and stuff. So there is every kind of lifestyle that you want to pursue there you can find.
[Jaz]
And Mark, is there any point have any language barriers or anything issues that thing’s worth checking on after five years, did you find the fact that I don’t know if you do know Arabic or not, but any issues like that?
[Mark]
Well, so yeah, so I’m Egyptian by heritage. So I speak Arabic. My Arabic was not great when I arrived. But it certainly got a lot better because as I said a lot of my patients were Emirati and it’s a tough, it’s a Scottish of Arabic, really, it’s a challenge to understand. But you know, they’re all really great. The patients are really nice and patient and the official work language is English, right? So you don’t need to speak Arabic to move there. So-
[Jaz]
Yeah, that was the same in Singapore, you didn’t need to know Chinese or Malay or anything like that. And it was workable in English. So it’s good to just know that’s the case. Fraaz, do you speak Arabic or any of your colleagues where they already have any language issues?
[Fraaz]
No, I’m the only one who unfortunately my family that’s not like bilingual so my wife speaks Arabic, which is more the classical Arabic. My kids, we’re trying to get them into that. So Dubai hopefully will help and then see my in laws. So like the odd one out in that respect.
[Jaz]
We’ll have to follow up and make sure you’re doing okay and Fraaz, anything that we haven’t covered yet. They want to leave as a final thought of this podcast.
[Fraaz]
Yeah, I think my similar intentions of living here have quite similar to Mark’s where I’m not trying to chase the Ferrari or the Rolls-Royce or the villa that’ll all be nice if it comes. But that’s not the intention, the intention is to, to enjoy life for what it is over here. A couple of things that pulled me in that some of you might be thinking of is like the safety aspect, a good example is just now. So as you know, we’ve had issues with be setting up for this podcast, I tried to run over to die.
So to try and get like an adapter for the headphones, I’d left my laptop, iPad phone, everything, just on the Tim Hortons counter, just went over and I know what’s going to be there, when I come back. You know, I know it’s not gonna be taken or anything like that. So simple, small things. So safety, that’s a big factor and the lifestyle I think you can make about what you want, really. But again, as Mark alluded to sooner, you can lose a lot of money as well, if you decide to pursue the Dubai bling pathway. So you have to be quite careful and know your personality quite well. Keeping up with the Joneses, I think is quite easy to get into over here.
Jaz’s Outro:Of course, in any way of life in any culture. Mark, Fraaz, thank you so much for making such an enjoyable fun podcast about moving to Dubai, I guess my wife will have to listen to it and make of it what she will. And I guess you’ll hear from me, for my principals who are listening, don’t worry, nothing’s gonna happen. I want to be one practice for a long time. But if you piss me off too much, I’ll be on the plane to Dubai. Thanks so much, guys. Well, there we have it, guys, thank you so much for listening all the way to the end, I hope there was lots of nuggets, lots of food for thought, maybe you are settled wherever you are working, maybe you’re happy where you’re working. But it’s sometimes good to know what dentistry might be like in another country. So hopefully, you’ve experienced that today.
And if you’re someone who’s actually actively looking for a big shift, and maybe you’ve been thinking about UAE, I’m sure there was lots of nuggets in there for you as well. This episode is not suitable for CPD, there wasn’t enough meat in terms of CPD, but most episodes are suitable for CPD and CPD certificates. And obviously, that’s all on the app on Google and on Apple, and even the web. So you go to protrusive .app as a website, or download it on the Apple Store, or the Google Store, and I’m constantly adding exclusive content, some of the new content I’m working on now is a full clinical video of me prepping and bonding four units of ceramic under rubber dam.
This is a case where also I had an interesting black triangle when I was trying in the ceramics and how I manage that by sending it back to the lab and how my technician was expertly able to fill in the black triangle and how good it looks now. So lots of learning points in that. And that’s all in the Protrusive Premium Section of the app. And you can also of course interact in the community section and be able to download the videos for offline listening. So in case you have choppy connection, you can just have it downloaded to your device. So that’s all of the Protrusive App. Thank you so much. Once again, I’ll catch you same time, same place next week.
Did you know that Dentistry was voted the unhealthiest career in the world? Multiple times. That’s right, we’re number one! The grim reality is that we take on all sorts of professional and personal risks on a daily basis.
I had the opportunity to sit down with Dr. Rohan Verma, a clinical dentist and fitness coach to record this wholesome episode. We talked about what steps we can take to improve our health. At the end of our conversation, we also talked about diet as well. I hope this episode will address our unique professional challenges and help you become healthier and more mindful about everything you’re doing for mental and physical well-being.
https://youtu.be/xubc_XpSrzICheck out this full episode on YouTubeNeed to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this episode:
- 1:51 Dr. Rohan Verma’s Introduction
- 3:46 Mental Health Awareness
- 6:39 Biggest mistakes dentists are making with their health
- 11:09 Posture Issues
- 14:50 The significance of sleep
- 16:52 Importance of setting a routine for better health improvement
- 24:16 Working out routine
- 29:09 Dr. Rohan’s stand on different kinds of diet
- 31:29 The benefit of calorie counting
Check out Dr. Rohan Verma’s Instagram to get some tips on how to improve your health – as well as a Dentist he’s an online fitness coach.
Monitor your calorie intake with this MyFitnessPal: Calorie Counter available on:
- iOS: MyFitnessPal: Calorie Counter
- Google Play: MyFitnessPal: Calorie Counter
📨 Download Protrusive App and Claim Verifiable CPD/CE + EXCLUSIVE content:
- iOS: Protrusive App
- Android: Protrusive App
If you enjoyed this episode, then do check out 5 Lessons from Lincoln Harris
Click below for full episode transcript:Jaz's Introduction: Did you know that Business Insider ranked DENTISTRY as the MOST DANGEROUS PROFESSION in the whole world for your health, and they did this multiple years in a row. So, why is it? Why is our job so dangerous? Jaz’s Introduction:
I think we know the answers. We’re in this horrible posture, we’ve got this infection control risk, we are sat in this four walls with just one other person, usually. That’s gonna drive you mad, as well as the extreme stress that we undertake in our profession of clinical dentistry. So, whether you are a dentist, a nurse or a DA as they’re so affectionately called in the US, or if you’re a therapist or hygienist. I think you have something to gain from this episode about looking after your health in the space of dentistry. Now, who better than Dr. Rohan Verma, who is a clinical practicing dentist, and also a fitness fanatic and a fitness coach to professionals.
So, I brought him on to talk about different things like what are the big mistakes we’re making in our profession? In terms of how we’re NEGLECTING OUR HEALTH? How can we IMPROVE our WELL-BEING in this profession? And we also pivot and talk about some other things that I’m quite interested in like towards the end, we talked about diet, right? I know many of you know I do a lot of intermittent fasting. So, I will not eat my first meal quite often until, you know, one or 2pm and then I’ll have like a five or six hour window where I consume all my food.
So, what does Rohan think about that? What does he think about paleo diet or carnivorous diet or keto? So, I asked him about this kind of stuff. But before then, we talk about how we can recognize that something’s not working for our health and what are the actionable steps that we can take to better improve our health. Welcome to the podcast. My name is Jaz Gulati. You are the Protruserati because now you’re listening to this and if you’re new to the podcast, welcome.
This segment of the podcast is an IC, so an interference costs. So, slightly pivot away from clinical dentistry. If clinical dentistry is more your thing, then most of my episodes are that but I do like to talk about things that I’m interested in. So, whether it’s well-being, getting more sleep, or this fitness and health, reducing your stress or health. That’s what we’re talking about today. So, hope you enjoy this episode with Dr. Rohan Verma.
Main Episode
Dr. Rohan Verma, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast my friend, how are you?
[Rohan]
I’m very well, man, thank you very much for having me.
[Jaz]
Like many of the guests that I have on, we do go way back and I’ve known you from undergraduate days. Even then you always say, I had this amazing physique and of knew, okay, these guys are definitely gonna pivot into, as well as, being an awesome dentist you are. You’re into the health space and fitness space. So, it would be fun to talk about that stuff, but for those dentists who haven’t come across you for around the world. Tell us about you Rohan. Tell us about you as a dentist and you outside of the remit of dentistry in terms of all the other things that you do in the space of health and and well-being.
[Rohan]
Awesome! Well, firstly, hi guys, nice to meet you. I’m Rohan. I’m a full-time private practice dentist working at Cookham in little village near Marlow, Henley, Reading area. As Jaz very kindly said, yeah, I’ve been into fitness for a long, long time. Just like everyone here, I was very fit and active at school. Did the standard things, did rugby, football, karate, those sort of things. And then it wasn’t until I hit University. And then that’s really when my fitness journey kind of really began a little bit, probably, in the most conventional way.
My mental health, unfortunately, took a turn for the south. And I really started to become quite anxious. I noticed that there were certain traits of my, sort of like perfectionism coming through which naturally led as dentists, as one thing, I think I noticed that very much. So, the more I talk about it, more people and more and more aware about it, and I needed an output. And it took me a while to find my own feet with it. But in essence, I realized that I missed my fitness. And I miss doing active things that used to be like sports, rugby, karate, as a kid. But when I go to dentistry it was, okay, all or nothing with the books. And I think, that aspect of being very much all or nothing made me realize I had no balance, and I needed to find some outlet. And that’s where the gym came for me. I could do it my own time, my own space, and it was just the perfect outlet for me.
[Jaz]
If you don’t mind, Rohan just talking about that. I think it’s really good of you to mention that, you know, you had an adverse experience with your mental health, as we all do. We’re all human. As dentists in this high pressure job that we’re in. And we’ll talk about all those sorts of things later on in terms of general well-being and obviously fitness and health. But also mental health sort of being so key. A, how did you recognize this issue? But then B, did you seek professional help? Or did you just do some introspection, self-discovery, and discover yourself that, okay, what you are missing in your life is the things that made you happy in your childhood. Which is the exercise and the fitness and the x and the sort of the fun things that you did extracurricular and then you just pursued that or how does that come to be?
[Rohan]
To be honest, I think if you’re aware of mental health, I think you’ll realize it’s not something which suddenly appears, it’s something which you’re always dealing with. I mean, to this day, I would still say I’m dealing with my mental health. It’s there’s peaked and troughed throughout my dental career, definitely for sure. I think the first time I experienced it was first year, undergraduate BDS, an anatomy spot exam. I remember it so vividly. I was always that guy at school. I worked hard. I will do extremely well at school and I wouldn’t actually worry about it because I knew if I put in the work, I would get the results. Then you come to dentistry where everyone is super smart. Everyone is of that top tier kind. The first few days, and it was overwhelming for me at first. And I remember to study for that spot.
And it just no matter how much I tried, I looked at those that the court required and try to memorize those, those anatomies diagrams as much as I could, coloring them and everything. It just didn’t work for my brain. And I remember sitting there in the exam, I wanted to put pen to paper. But I physically couldn’t move. I literally felt almost stuck. And I think that was the point when I realized something was brewing in me. And it wasn’t probably till I started to speak to loved ones. I mean, fortunately, my mother’s psychologists and therapists, and she started talking to me saying, ‘Look, I can’t help you, because obviously, there’s a clash of interests here.
However, I do think there’s something going on.’ I don’t think I was in the right sort of headspace at the time to first deal with it at university. And it wasn’t actually until maybe years later that I actually sought professional help. And actually, that really has been a big turning point for me. Yes, fitness has helped. But I wouldn’t say that’s the only word on it. Yeah, so it’s been, it’s been a journey, man. Don’t get me wrong. Like I said, I think I’m learning each day.
[Jaz]
We’re all on this journey, everyone’s in a different place. And it’s like a different seasons in our physical health, which I’m at the moment, that at this time of recording with you. Diwali 2022, I can’t be in this moment, right now. I am, Happy Diwali, Rohan, I am neglecting my physical health. At the moment, I can say that I haven’t made peace with it, though. Because that’s not how I wish to live the rest of my, not only year, but rest of my life. But it’s just a season at the moment where I know that okay, my health is suffering, because of various circumstances in life. But it’s really good to have that self reflection and self-awareness. And it’s really good that you did seek what you did. But pivoting on to the most of the physical health, which ties in so much of the mental health.
[Rohan]
Yeah.
[Jaz]
Dentists in terms of, when you search the jobs in the world, and there’s a huge quite, it went viral amongst our community of all the jobs in the world, every single job that is like the most dangerous if you like. And a couple of years in a row, dentistry came out as the most dangerous job because of various things like exposure to radiation. The fact that you’re in this posture in this room, diseases that you can catch, for example. So, put all those metrics and suicide rate. So, all these metrics are fed into fact that dentistry was the worst for your health, or dangerous in that category of all different professions in the world, which is crazy. So, having said that, and in light of that, in that context, what are the biggest mistakes you think dentists are making with their health? And just to give those a little background and context, Rohan being a dentist, but also helps dentists and other professionals improve their well-being and health. So, you know, you are the best person to speak about this.
[Rohan]
I’ve been in the fitness industry for 10 years and haven’t practiced now since 2013. So, the best part of nearly 10 years, I’ve seen very much certain correlations between the two favorites in dentistry of what we do right, what we do wrong. The big one, and we kind of already touched on it already, Jaz, is an essence that, we spend our entire days at dentists between the hours of eight and six, nine and five, call it what you want, focusing in on other people. But often we neglect ourselves, it comes at a detriment to our own well-being. I mean, tell me the number of times you’ve gone to work. And then you’ve had a busy back to back patient list. And in that time, you haven’t drank any water. You’ve had to run late through lunch, you maybe skip lunch. You’ve not perhaps time to prep your meals. So, therefore you’re going to order delivery, when you get home from work. You then go out, you sit with them and have you cooked dinner. And in essence, you have now to go back onto work, to do some clean checks because you know, you’re gonna plan your Invisalign cases without thinking, ‘Oh, it’s 11:30 I’ve got to go to bed’, and then start that routine all over again.
We neglect ourselves and we forget how stressful the environment is. We forget that we’re not nurturing ourselves. We’re not thinking about our sleep patterns. We’re not thinking about our well-being both physical and mental. Because those things impact us not just in the moment when you feel tired. These things add up. So, when you start thinking, ‘Oh, is my mental health gonna suffer?’ Of course, but we’re neglecting ourselves. So, I think that’s the first thing I’d say is we hinder ourselves with.
[Jaz]
Rohan I just want to mention that for those listening right now. And if you’re driving, please drive safely because if like me, you’re listening in your a little minute just there. Describing all the things as though you’ve got a CCTV camera of my life. I know there’s hundreds of dentist driving to the Capitol, okay. But people watching you driving, who’s guys listening to rock music or something like bobbing their head along? So yeah, totally, man, you hit the nail on the head. I know so many dentists of all, you know, no matter if they experienced dentists, or new dentists, that describe this. Exactly, this sort of rat-race kind of mentality that we have that we give everything in our day. We’re sort of expanded. We’re absolutely just smashed. So, we come home, and we want to take away and we neglect ourselves.
[Rohan]
I mean, often people say look, it’s about that, you know, we have that all or nothing mentality. That’s why we got here. That’s why we’re successful. But you’ve got to you’ve got to ask yourself, how long can you keep that up for? And I think the big question I get asked by people who either interact with me on Instagram on social media, whether it be for example, just people asking me for advice day to day when I meet them at weddings, and they say, ‘Oh, what do you do?’ I say, look for a balance now, in my opinion, and it’s very cliche, there’s no perfect balance. There’s no such thing. However, you have spinning plates. You have work, you have family life, you have friends, you have dentistry, you have perhaps maybe an Instagram profile you’re trying to juggle. There’s so many things, you’re constantly juggling. At times, you just need to know when to put the pedal to the metal and when to ease off a little bit. So for example, okay, I’ve got an Invisalign Open Day, yeah, I’m gonna have to put in some hours to prep that, cool.
But then perhaps the next week, the next few days after that. Put some time into your well being maybe go for a walk with your loved ones, with a little one after work. Maybe spend half an hour. Go for a small workout, even a small one. Just do something, she knows is going to nurture you. Because finding that structure, which helps you and also you can stick to, and you’ll hear this me say throughout this whole podcast today. That’s the crucial recipe. It’s not about finding the perfect solution. It’s about finding the solution that works for you.
[Jaz]
And what are the associated in terms of themes? Is that the main one that you can focus on before we move on? Or is there another big health mistake? So number one, just to summarize is we don’t look after ourselves?
[Rohan]
Yeah, I think number two, I mean, I can go all day. This is what I love to talk about it’s like a goal day. The second thing I would say, is we tend to find we’re looking for the quick fix. You mentioned a statistic about how we start off with back pain, neck pain, it’s guaranteed. If you’re gonna be sitting there doing two hours and those three hour composite build up cases, you know, doing big case, we have work like yourself Jaz, you’ve got to realize you are stuck in the most unnatural position all day long, perhaps maybe your necks gonna suffer, your back’s gonna suffer, your posture is gonna suffer. And I see it quite a lot. And don’t get me wrong, I’ve done it myself. The first thing we think we turned to is ibuprofen and the chiropractor or the physio, so we look for the quick fix. Whereas as dentists, I thought we were meant to be out there planning for longevity, planning for the long-term.
So, while we’re not looking at the cause, we’re not looking at, okay, do I need to address perhaps, maybe it’s going to be buying some loops, maybe it’s going to be perhaps maybe working on a saddle chair? Or more importantly, what about building up the muscles of our neck or back or shoulders or spine? So, that’s what I’m trying to unpick this sort of health, the habits we have at the moment. So, going to work is great. Doing a long day at work is great, but what are you doing after work to help nurture those problems that you’re feeling when you’re sitting up late at night time having back pain, etc? Don’t just go for the quick fix. It’s almost like you broken that lower left six visa lingual cusp. Do you stick on a GIC? You do an onlay. Do you do the quick fix? Or do you look for the long term solution? That’s what I feel that we need to start-
[Jaz]
I’ll start recommending to our patients is not what we’re repeating ourselves.
[Rohan]
That’s the thing. And it’s it comes again, back to what are we doing for ourselves? That I guess is the overall encompassing problem. But what are we doing also to help ourselves? I think the other big thing is, and I see it a lot, in a lot of my clients who tend to be doctors and dentists ends up being like, we need to appreciate that our environment that we work in is extremely stressful. Guaranteed. Very intimate, very precise work and there is a huge demand to provide amazing outcomes, whether it be aesthetically functionally, hopefully everything all together. So come Friday, come 5pm. And I’m culprit to it too. When that drill goes down, I want to pick up a Corona and I want to chill. However, it comes back to that work-life balance. Are we finding perhaps maybe that balance, which may be actually not necessarily nourishing our well-being?
So, don’t get me wrong? I do think you should go out for, perhaps a nice meal with loved ones. I do think you should go out for a couple of beers. But do we know how to find that sort of sensible approach to it? Do we looked at, potentially, looking at, okay, maybe I’ll go for a walk with my family tomorrow morning. Maybe I’ll go for a workout because I can still have that structure, that routine of knowing how to work hard, play hard, but also think about my well-being in that process. It’s not just remembering to push yourself but knowing when to like look after yourself as well.
[Jaz]
Very good. And, Rohan, I want to trace back to the point you made, again about how we go for the quick fix. And you mentioned about the posture issues. And I linked that back to the earlier point I made, were the some of the theories as to why there is such a high, you know, depression or suicidal alcoholism right in dentistry, traditionally, I don’t know what the latest stats are. But this is what we’re led to believe, when you speak to our more experienced colleagues, you know, in terms of historically. And so one of the theories is because we are in this sort of slouch posture, that sort of physiology feeds into our psychology and it’s completely the opposite of power posing. So, power posing, you know, you’re looking at, you see how your physiology and posture affects your psychology.
So, there’s a whole dimension of okay, yes, we’re neglecting our physical health, but that ties in better with our mental health. And you mentioned about the quick fix. I think I also mentioned that, okay. We want to aim for that quick fix. But what about the importance of sleep somehow, which is overarching in terms of your health. How do you coach your clients in terms of sleep? Is that the kind of do you have discussions about sleep?
[Rohan]
Absolutely. I mean, look, sleep is a huge part. In my opinion, if you think about your bedtime routine, you’re setting yourself up for the next day. I think often we forget to realize that your sleep is linked to everything. Your sleep is linked to your stress. It’s linked to your hunger levels, your digestion, your energy levels, your hormones, everything. In essence, when you’re sleeping, your body is resting and recovering. So, if you’re doing four hours, five hours a night and it’s broken sleep. You’re waking up to go to the bathroom. You’re waking up thinking about stuff. Maybe what you got to do in the morning. Maybe that first difficult patient you got in the morning. That is going to be setting you up for a very challenging day. And then that’s going to roll on for days after days, weeks after weeks, month after month, it’s going to have a huge impact on your health. I mean, the sort of key, sort of number, there’s no perfect number. I mean, if you tell this to a young mother, I said to her, aim for 7, 8 or 9 hours asleep, she’s going to look at me like you’re having a laugh me. But I would say if you can try to give yourself I think working backwards and pitching it backwards helps a lot more.
So, give yourself almost like a non negotiable you’re aiming for. So for example, Jaz, your little ones getting up, you know what time you gotta go to school, we’re trying to get your dream drop off. So, this thing backwards with your routine. What time do I need to go to bed to aim for, ideally six and a half to seven hours of sleep. And then give yourself a half an hour buffer. Listen, I guarantee you when you finish your day. You know you shouldn’t be but you’re probably gonna be sitting there, scrolling on Instagram, or checking your emails, checking that you’ve done everything you need to do for the next day. So, give yourself that half an hour buffer. And then allow yourself that six and a half to seven hours. And if you can get that sleep in the next day, you will wake up feeling potentially more refreshed, less likely to pick on, excuse my language, crappy foods. Because you’re not feeling as hungry and perhaps lethargic and tired and generally low your self-esteem and fear and feelings. Because that’s where we reach out for the junk. That’s where we reach out to doing very little of sitting on our butts, we got home from work because we’re just tired.
[Jaz]
And you gave that one piece of actual advice already, actually in terms of how to set a better routine and to get better quality sleep. What are the actionable, to something that we can action as dentists that, if there was like one thing that you hate about what we do to our health, and you really want to change that and shake it up and start doing this one thing. You talk about the problems and the issues and how we look after ourselves. If there was like a magic wand and we change one habit about what we do. As a stereotypical profession, what would that be?
[Rohan]
That’s a tough question, man. I can’t say one. I really couldn’t say one. Well, I couldn’t say to do one thing is go to my Instagram and click my link bio. No plug intended. But seriously, as a free sort of like seven step process of how to kind of take your well-being into, perhaps another dimension, perhaps would be looking after yourself in a more manageable, more longevity approach. So, for example, that I talked about, in that, that seven step process, like you said, sleep, we talked about that six and a half, seven hours of sleep a night.
Hydration, trying to aim for the appropriate amount of hydration for yourself. Now I get asked how much should I drink? How much water should I drink a day? How much fluid to drink a day? Just think of it this way, per 25 kilo grams of your body over one liter. And when you started to put that into context. You probably realized God, there have been days where I’ve probably only had maybe one liter, one liter and a half max and I guarantee you you’re under hydrate yourself. There’s no way you can do the the intricate work that you do every day and still feel like you’re going to perform to your best and feel energized. So, definitely think about your hydration levels. The third thing is-
[Jaz]
You might know about coffee, then because I’m a huge coffee drinker. I wonder if you know this. They say that if you have black coffee, the content of water, the hydration in that may negate the dehydration effect. Is that is that a myth? Or what’s your rule or advice on coffee?
[Rohan]
I personally feel that’s completely fine. And I’ve looked into the research behind caffeine. And they do say that the hydration levels, whatever it is, it helps negate it. So, I call it as a total fluid intake for the day. But what I would say about caffeine and you should bear this in mind is that it has a half life. And I don’t know if you guys remember back in the day learning this at University. But in essence, the half-life of caffeine is six hours. So, if you’re drinking caffeine, and you’re after three or 4pm, and you’re trying to go to sleep at around 10 or 11, you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Because it’s still gonna be lingering, your system is still going to be there. And you’re going to be keeping a nighttime, perhaps maybe making being the reason why you’re struggling to sleep and having that broken sleep. So, just give yourself an earlier cut-off point-
[Jaz]
It affects everyone differently. Right. So, I could actually have one at 8pm and still go to bed at about 10. I’m a coffee drinker of crazy levels you want to do.
[Rohan]
For sure. I mean, to a degree, you’re probably caffeine intolerant, and that you probably actually, you’ll find Jaz, that the impact of caffeine on you perhaps is so different to me. I’m not trying to beat myself up here, but I don’t drink enough coffee because it used to make me quite anxious. But what I’ve noticed now, is the more you drink it, you do have a caffeine tolerance and then that sort of boost and pick me up effect is negated by the fact that you just drink perhaps maybe two or three, four or five throughout the day. So, just maybe just be more mindful of that. Maybe try and consider, perhaps maybe a caffeine detox.
[Jaz]
What was interesting research I read on BBC One. So, a couple of times they sort of recycle the same article every 18 months, is that what they found is that the benefits of coffee were truly realized after drinking four or five cups a day. So, they found that actually, coffee is a good thing, but you kind of need to have four or five cups a day to get all their antioxidant benefit. So, when I read that it was a dream to read that it was like an open license to just crack on. But obviously, everything within reason gotta respect your body and how it affects you and your own individual tolerance.
[Rohan]
100%. Ultimately comes down to, like I said before, what works for you, for what works for one person may not be the perfect recipe for the other person. If it works for you. It helps you get through a day, then please do but if it’s affecting your sleep, if you’re feeling perhaps maybe a little bit more on edge more anxious, you’re waking up with broken sleep, maybe then you want to think about okay, do I should I scale it back? What time do I finish my coffee intake? Have a look at it that way.
[Jaz]
And one thing I really like that you said about just the hydration thing, it’s such a huge thing for me. And some days, I have good days. And some days, I have really bad days. And I feel as though is one thing that I think is the most important thing for me to improve and keep our stay level is having that hydration because I’m so dehydrated. Especially, when you got lots of new patient consultations or checkups. You’re talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, and you’re sometimes running late, because you’re talking so much, and you’re explaining, and you put your heart and soul into it, you’re absolutely parched. Therefore, having that bottle is just a number one hack to have, any other hacks you can give to stay hydrated?
[Rohan]
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I carry. I haven’t got it with me right now. But I have a water bottle, which has the hours of the day written down next to it. And it’s so useful to one liter bottle, and it makes it so idiot proof. It just says, ‘it’s 1pm, have you drank this much?’, ‘it’s 2pm, have you drank this much?’ And that’s just like a gentle reminder to help you kind of keep going. And I sometimes end up realizing I have to like chug because I haven’t done it for a little while. But at least you just have that sort of measurable goal. I think that’s one of the big things is having something measurable to work towards, which will always help us kind of stay on track. The other thing I tend to recommend is, when it comes to lunchtime, dinner time, breakfast time, get one of those half liter bottles like from Kirkland, or even just a glass it just fill it up and drink that glass with your meal. In essence, if you’re doing that you’re getting in some thick. I see one of the biggest, sort of perhaps, maybe sort of mistakes or hurdles we as individuals incorporate when we’re trying to get into a fitter well-being with fitness space is that we tend to try and do too much too quickly. I’m going to take the perfect amount of water and get the perfect amount of steps.
Gonna have the perfect calories going to hit. Six workouts a week. Why run before you can walk. I mean, I usually say to start off by doing something simple. Add a glass of water to your main meal, that will be enough. You start with that then after two or three weeks time of doing that consistently, then build it up. Don’t start looking, as I’ve got this pub podcast, this guy is telling me to drink two liters of water, I’ve only drank half a liter today. Go from 0 to 100 is going to be in essence a recipe for failure. It’s going to set you up for a little bit of disappointment in my eyes.
[Jaz]
Absolutely!
[Rohan]
That kind of like links to one of the the other points I mentioned in my 10 Step Guide is, when it comes to working out. I think, there’ll be a lot of people and a lot of listeners today who will be able to relate to this. The number of times you thought, okay, I don’t feel comfortable how I look, or I don’t feel great right now. I know I need to get into shape. I need to go to the gym. And they’ve gone from doing nothing to try to hit, like I said maybe five or six workouts. No matter what you can do, just do something small. So, the week after, if you know you can do five workouts do two, stick to the two, even if it’s just two simple workouts do two, the week after do another two, the week after that, do two again, once you’ve done it three or four weeks on the charts, and you found it manageable, you will actually realize I can keep this up. The problem is if you go and try and do six workouts in week one, you might keep it up for week one or maybe week two.
But after that, life happens, your kids start crying and saying that I want to play with you. You might want to have to go to, I don’t, go to the cinema, or go for a meal. You will realize you can’t keep that up. And once you feel like you can’t keep that up, it does make you feel a bit frustrated, then you might just sack off the whole mentality of going to the gym. So, rather say stick to something you can manage. And then build it into the point where you realize, okay, this fits now in with what I can do on my day to day life. When you find that sort of solution which fits in and it’s manageable. That’s when you found the right solution for you.
[Jaz]
I love that advice. Because what I’ve been affected by, you mentioned it already, Rohan, is this perfectionist attitude we have. And I’ve always been all or nothing. So, if I can’t do a full hour workout, then there’s no point even going. What’s the point of doing a 20 minute. But now I’ve changed my ways. And I know that if I can get that all important 20-30 minutes when I can three, four times a week as my usual aim. I’m so much happier and grateful that I did it. Whereas before I’d be like. There’s no point me going. My dad’s does that, if you can’t get as couple hours in the gym as ours, there’s no point me going. So, I think we’re all susceptible to that.
[Rohan]
It’s totally, I think that’s again, it’s one of the reasons why we’re so good at what we do. We don’t do things by half measures. But if you’re looking to do something so drastic like that, it’s just going to be putting yourself In a position which is going to make you feel almost frustrated when you can’t meet it. And the big thing about gym and motivation is that nobody likes doing it even I’ve had moments where I don’t want to go. But what helps me is routine. Routine is crucial. And I think when you find that routine, which works for you Jaz, you’ve got your style. I know what mine is. When I started fitness, it was six times a week.
Now, with the fact that I’ve got two businesses, a lovely wife to come home to, a family I want to spend time with, a social life. And perhaps I need to sit there and plan Invisalign cases and rehab, etc. I know for me four times a week it’s my non-negotiable. And I can do that. And I could stick to that. And it makes me happy when I see that, I’ve ticked that little four workouts in because I can actually stick to it. It is my manageable target. So, I think we need to kind of sometimes take a step back, rather than aiming for what the Men’s Health magazine recommends. We have to recognize our jobs, our lives are very unique. And we need to adapt around that.
[Jaz]
Brilliant! So, the advice there guys is to find your non-negotiable, and it doesn’t matter. If you’re not able to do the full whack, try and find something that you can routinely carry out week by week. So, I love that. Let’s go to the final segment, which is I was actually most excited for is DIET. Right? Because this has fascinated me. I know, it’s probably fascinated you and you talk about a lot on your Instagram. So, really excited to actually hear about it. Because I know you’re someone who’s actually sat down and read papers about which diet and in terms of longevity and health and you probably are into that space and then absorb that information.
So, I want to extract that from you. You’ll be like the, here’s my five minute guide more than what all the last research I’ve done last 15 years, etc., right? So, I’d love to know from you. But I’m into intermittent fasting, I’m a big fan. I have a 72-hour fast for charity recently, which is really pushing my limits. And I did it and I was meeting a race of money for Ukrainian refugees and whatnot, which was a noble thing to do. And it went really well. So, thanks to everyone who supported that. But I just wanna know, what kind of diet do you follow yourself? I want to know. Are you vegan? That kind of stuff. And then what do you think from everything you read is the ultimate diet? Because some people like, I know a dentist and she swears by carnivore diet. She actually swears by carnivore. I know some keto fanatics. I know some people who, yeah, so I know some people in all these spaces. Where are you at?
[Rohan]
I’m gonna have to be careful what I say. So, I’m a carnivore, I eat meat, but I wouldn’t say I preach any particular diet in per se. Every diet works. And we start by saying that every diet works paleo, keto-
[Jaz]
But like, kind of wasn’t like you only eat meat?
[Rohan]
No, no. I eat meat, I eat vegetable. I’ll talk about my diet in a second. I have a pretty normal diet.
[Jaz]
Because that other dentists I was referring to by the way, she was actually like the following the actual carnivore diet.
[Rohan]
Oh, okay. Literally, only meat. Okay. Wow. Okay.
[Jaz]
Yeah. Like, you can’t have lagoons and you can’t have this. And it’s very like almost like paleo, but even more extreme than paleo.
[Rohan]
So, okay, let me break down what I do. And I’ll tell you about what I think about other diets. In essence, what I kind of preach is an 80/20 rule. If I can eat 80% of the time, whole foods, things which are least moderate processed. So. for example, opting for things like potatoes, rice, grains, couscous, lentils, and then I supplement that with my diet with a good amount of protein. I typically aim for two grams per kilo of my body weight of protein a day. And I try to think 80% of my diet should be Whole Foods, 20% should be crap, i.e., things I enjoy tasty foods, processed foods, cakes, biscuits, sweets. Because for me, having done this now for over a decade. Having worked with hundreds of clients. Having helped people get into shape, I’ve seen what works and what doesn’t work. For some people, it might be like you said, going ketogenic, which means cutting out all the carbs and go really high fats. For some people maybe eating very paleo, so keeping it really natural, very unmodified, unprocessed for some people in-
[Jaz]
Hunt together.
[Rohan]
Hunt together style. Yeah, if people like yourself who are the-
[Jaz]
If, as
[Rohan]
If is out here who tend to like to starve themselves for a long period of day. Whatever works for you. And you can enjoy and it works for your fitness goals, your health goals, and you can sustain, that’s the diet you should do. Try them all out. But in my opinion, carbs are bloody tasty, shouldn’t get rid of them. They help you feel energized, they make you feel happy. Why would you want to get rid of them? That’s my personal feeling on them. If works because I think for some people, they like to eat a lot of big portions. And when it comes to calorie control and not putting on weight, keeping that calories down, is the crucial thing. Or if does is gives you a smaller eating window.
So, let’s say you have your dinner at 8pm and you don’t then eat until the next day at 1pm, 2pm, 3pm. You’ve just, in essence reduced an eating window to five maybe six hours of the day. So, what happens then when you’re eating is you have very little time to eat a lot of calories, keeping you fuller for longer, and making sure let you enjoy your meal. So, you could have maybe two, like 1000 calorie meals, which is pretty epic. But I know I’d fall asleep in the chair, if I tried to do that. I don’t think my patients would appreciate me like literally struggling to stay awake while trying to do some on mates. So, what I do is a diet for me, which works for me, which is spread my calories throughout the day. I have three or four main meals, and I just tried to make sure that each of those meals, there is some good veg, there’s some complex carbs in there, like oats or rice or potatoes or pasta, Bagels breads, not bad. Please don’t say breads, bad, by the way, whoever thinks that and they should think they should stick to white bread or brown rice over white rice. You know, there’s so many mess I could debunk right now. But just find the diet which works for you. That’s the crucial thing there.
[Jaz]
I think in terms of making time for yourself and, you know, get you care, we care for others, it’s important to care for yourself. And part of that is actually experimenting at various seasons of your life where it’s possible to see which diet is best for you. I’ve had some friends who went keto, their IBS got better, or whatever, you know. And had they not done the due diligence to experiment with their body and it is experimentation. So, you got to kind of make sure it doesn’t affect your patient care. Right. So, I’ve tested that, okay, I can intermittent fast, safely 24 hours without affecting patient care. After 24 hours, I don’t know. Therefore, when I did my 72-hour fast, I make sure I timed it and the weekend I wasn’t working. So, there’s no risk of patients being affected. So, you have to always look at, you know, patient care. Just bring it back to dentistry and how we all can apply it to our lives.
[Rohan]
For sure. I mean, I think the biggest thing which everyone should do, if they haven’t done it already, is start tracking their calories. It’s probably a controversial thing. But I feel that we should because when it comes to your general health and fitness, it does come down to a simple calories-in versus calories-out. If you feel that you’re feeling tired and sluggish. And you feel like you’re putting on weight, you’re possibly over consuming too many calories and not moving enough. If you’re feeling like you can’t put on weight, you’re feeling like you’re again tired and sluggish you possibly also under consuming. So, the first thing I would recommend anyone out there who’s listening is go on to the App Store, download my Fitness Pal, it’s free. Have the basic version and just track your calories. You’ll soon realize where you are potentially shooting yourself in the foot and maybe over consuming or under consuming. I mean, one of the big things, and this is one of the things I kind of alluded to earlier Jaz is, dentist, typically, Monday to Friday are very, very good. We’re very mindful. We don’t over eat. We tend to have quite sensible portions become a weekend, I guarantee there’ll be a big portion of us out here who are slamming in the calories or takeaways that alcohol or perhaps maybe undoing a lot of our good healthy habits during the week.
Now, if you start becoming more mindful of where those calories are creeping in. Maybe having four or five pints and having a couple of cheesy chips on the way home and then Nando’s and the Domino’s the day after. When you start adding those up and realizing, okay, maybe I am consuming about five or 6000 calories for the weekend. And you start looking at how you can regulate your portion control, you’ll realize that, okay, I can have a better balance. And it comes back to that point again, where is that balance for you. So, I would definitely recommend start with my Fitness Pal. You will see the foods that you enjoy. Some which are more potentially nourishing. Some which are potentially not as nourishing, more calcolo caloric, and then you will start making better course.
[Jaz]
I’m so glad you mentioned the M word mindfulness because as you were saying about calorie counting, it’s not something I practice, but the biggest benefit I see in calorie counting is that you have to then think about your food and look at your food, actually, spend a minute to analyze, okay, what’s inside this? How it’s gonna affect me in my body? And therefore, it’s a means for someone who’s not typically mindful about their food now becomes mindful about what they were eating, which is the great benefit, I think.
[Rohan]
Totally! I mean, if I was to be really honest about what I feel the most biggest benefit about My Fitness Pal is, it’s not the actual process of tracking and sticking it in your diaries, it’s like you said, it’s the thought which goes behind it. Once you’ve done it for a couple of weeks. My aim after a while with my clients is for them to have almost a knowledge and understanding about portion-control about nutrition fiber, which one’s going to be processed with fatty trans fats which are potentially risk of heart disease. What are good fats, which are bad fats. So, they now know if they go to a restaurant, how to make the call and a decision which is going to help nourish them.
Now, if for example, you’re a traveling dentist and you’re working up and down the practices across the country, you can’t sit there and track calories, let’s be honest, we know that. But at least you’ll have the understanding, okay, I can make some better decisions whilst I’m traveling up and down this country to choose foods which are going to be potentially less processed, less junkie and they’re going to help me feel good and perhaps maybe hit my nutrition goals and my fitness goals. So, it’s almost that awareness, that understanding which comes through practicing and implementing this over a period of time for you to then become okay, I know what to do now.
[Jaz]
Amazing! Well, I’ll put the link to My Fitness Pal. I’m sure everyone can find it quite easily. But we’ll make it helpful for you in the in the show notes I’ll also put Rohan’s Instagram page which you guys should all check out it’s wonderful content. I love the kind of the funny things that you do Rohan. Please tell us your Instagram handle once again. And I think we’ve covered a good few things to help people become healthier and more mindful about everything they’re doing mental health and fitness well-being.
[Rohan]
Thank you. So, if you want to follow me check me on Instagram. It’s Dr_RV fitness. I talk about everything fitness, dentistry, alcohol, well-being, mental health, physical health, it’s all a compass. I mean, as I said, I do think if you just do one thing today is to start thinking about yourself, guys. And I promise you, I think that will go a long way in terms of serving you in your professional career, but also your family and career, every aspect of your life will benefit from this.
[Jaz]
Amazing! Rohan, thank you so much for your time. I know you’re so busy with clients and whatnot. So again, thanks so much for speaking about something you’re so passionate about as a dentist that’s going to help other dentists.
[Rohan]
Thank you very much for being on here. So honored to be a part of this podcast, man, you guys are doing. Jaz, you’re doing an incredible thing to help us, not only improve as dentists but also outside of dentistry. So, I thank you for your time. And I hope everyone’s takes care of themselves and has a lovely day.
Jaz’s Outro:Well, there we have it guys, thanks so much for listening all the way to the end. In the show notes, so if you scroll down below, or if you’re watching on the app, you can just scroll down and see all the links that are put on to Rohan’s Instagram page and how to learn more from our hand. And for those of you on the app, you’ll realize that this episode wasn’t eligible for CPD. But don’t worry, I’ve got some really cool things coming just for you Premium Members of the podcast, so you’re gonna get access to my Vertie prep for plonkers entire series, we’re gonna do a 30-day photography challenge.
These are all things I’m working on, as well as access to a walkthrough of a full mouth case from beginning to end with my friend Alan Burgin. So, we’ll talk about a lot of different cases, one to one exclusively for Protrusive Premium. So, if you haven’t already downloaded the app, it’s a free download, go on Android or iOS, and search for Protrusive. And you can download the app straight away. So, if this is your favorite podcast, you need to take action and download it so you can get the maximum out of it. Again, thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. I’ll catch you in the next episode.
I am a big believer that the culture of your work place is probably the number one determinant of your fulfilment and joy from clinical Dentistry.
https://youtu.be/cGFpxUn6WXw Check out this full episode on Youtube.
In this non clinical episode I talk with Dr. Sandy about his past experiences and the reasons he had to make a significant change in order to find fulfillment in his career. We also discuss how to recognize a toxic culture in Dentistry and how to stand up for yourself if you're in one of those environments.
We hope this episode inspires you to take some sort of action, whether it's small or large, that will improve your enjoyment of work.
Highlights of this episode:
2:13 Dr. Sandy’s Introduction3:16 Dental Public Health Experience6:16 Dr. Sandy’s Transition from Public Health to Private Practice10:11 Taking massive action14:10 Recognizing a toxic working culture17:29 Stepping out of the toxic work environment19:33 Significance of having a plan for your career24:57 Importance of taking clinical photos29:26 Improving Dentistry through social media34:48 Dealing with litigations and patient complaints41:55 Recognize solutions rather than problems
As a Dentist, the first years are always the hardest. You have to adjust to unfamiliar situations and people constantly. A newbie's nerves can lead to self-doubt and hesitation whilst navigating this steep learning curve. I brought on recently qualified Dr. Saeed Cheraghi to guide you through the first few years of the 'University of Life'.
https://youtu.be/PXt3hvsV9LI Check out this full episode on YouTube
“You come out of Dental school thinking you know things and then you go into the real world and you realize you actually don't know that much at all!” Dr. Saeed Cheraghi
Highlights of this episode:
8:31 Indirect Dentistry experience 10:15 Challenges in terms of treatment phasing12:17 Level of support being a newbie dentist15:03 Dental training18:07 Overcoming lack of experience30:34 Worrying about litigations35:05 Importance of Health39:59 Lesson from experience
This episode is not eligible for CPD but you can check out other CPD-verified episodes on our Protrusive App on a web browser or you download the iOS App or the Android App.
This episode is brought to you by Enlighten Smiles, a premium brand of teeth whitening. They also run the Mini Smile Makeover Course - a composite course I really recommend.
If you liked this episode, you will love How to Win at Life and Succeed in Dentistry – Emotional Intelligence
My story of coming to the UK as a refugee from Afghanistan aged 6 and my journey in to Dentistry. I share some tough times and what drives me today. I explained why I think Dentistry was mis-sold to many of us as a 9-5 job (HA!) and my top books and influences.
I'm delighted to be a guest on the Soft Bites Podcast. The hosts, Manuela and Jorge, have both been guests on the Protrusive Dental Podcast in the past.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pznVMyEDwTE
Highlights of this episode:
4:48 My Story: Refugee 19967:17 Life adversities17:13 Importance of going through difficult moments22:31 Podcasting Journey27:38 Practicing a positive mindset31:51 Importance of education and information35:36 Good communication skills45:38 Balance between the professional and personal life55:25 Core values in life59:30 Future goals for The Protrusive Dental Podcast and clinical dentistry
Dr. Mahmoud Ibrahim and I are launching an occlusion course called OBAB (Occlusion Basics And Beyond). This course is o help you design and execute restorations from a single tooth to anterior aesthetic cases to full mouth rehab.
Also, sign up for our monthly occlusion tip for you to get the kind of clinical content that we are preparing with OBAB
If you loved this, be sure to watch Dentistry is STRESSFUL – this Podcast will help you
Being 'Mum' is the hardest (and most rewarding) job in the world. What are the unique challenges of Parenthood for Dentists? I'm thrilled to be sharing this non-clinical episode with you about work-life 'balance', especially if you’re thinking of starting a family one day (or just want to reminisce about real-world challenges facing young Dentists that are parents). Even if you're not a parent, I think it will help you in your career and personal life. Dr. Hardeep Basi and I also discuss why Women in Dentistry sometimes do not get the recognition they deserve.
https://youtu.be/FRP3vUQQdQI Check out this full episode on YouTube
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Highlights of this episode:
Dr. Hardeep’s Journey 6:33The ‘complaint’ that changed Dr. Hardeep’s perspective in life 13:01Motherhood affecting career progression 19:34Parenthood and Dentistry 28:14Female (Mothers) Support Group (Lead Her) 33:57Work-Life Quality 38:20Worrying about the Future 52:51
Check out the Support Group LEAD HER that Dr. Hardeep established to support females especially mothers in having the work-life quality they deserved!
If you enjoyed this episode, you will also like Being Unstoppable with Ferhan Ahmed
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: There are so so many challenges. I could spend an entire day talking about this and I made a list of about 25 unique challenges to particularly mothers in dentistry and things that I've experienced.
Jaz's Introduction:Hello, Protruserati. I'm Jaz Gulati and welcome back to the Protrusive Dental Podcast. This is an interference cast which is a non clinical interruption. For those who are listening, I don't know if I sound different. For those who are watching, you'll notice this crack on ceiling and my room looks very different. And where's my background gone? Hi, I'm recording in my sister's old bedroom in my parents place because Hardeep, our guest today who is a just a fantastic person. She's a shining light in dentistry, she's blossoming into this amazing voice for females in dentistry. And I brought her on to talk about parenthood in dentistry. It was so difficult to plan this date that it actually worked out that I'm recording not in my usual studio. So do excuse the acoustics and the video if it's a bit different.
For those of you that know me parenthood is something that's really important to me in my life. And I'm so happy to be sharing this episode with you guys. Even if you're not a parent, and you never want to be a parent, I think there's so much you can gain about our discussions at work life balance, like Hardeep maybe changed my thinking about it not being balance. It's about work-life quality. So we discussed that towards the end. We talk about family planning and how especially for females and mothers to be, this could really change your career trajectory. And we kind of touched a little bit on why, perhaps, in dentistry, women in dentistry sometimes not get the spotlight they truly deserve especially when you look at the lecture circuit, there are many more male dentists on the lecture circuit despite there being more females in dentistry up and coming than males.
So motherhood may have something to do with that. The challenges, unique challenges like being mum is the most difficult job ever. I remember Lakshmi. Lakshmi kind of got the I know you're listening to this. You're one of the loyal Protruserati and you came to our live splint course day and we just talked about being mum and being a practice owner and how it poses such unique challenges. Now one thing I discussed in this episode with Hardeep is I have been like the broodiness guy ever, for the longest time, like it was a dream come true when I became a father. So this was an episode I was really looking forward to recording. And I think dentistry does pose some unique challenges. And some of the challenges that Hardeep talks about,
I'm so excited to bring you another one of my favorite people today: Prav Solanki. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "for every CLINICAL course you do, do a NON-clinical one". This is super important. We talk health, relationships, business growth - and if you listen all the way to the end, you'll learn a BRILLIANT way to build social proof in to a consultation that is elegant.
https://youtu.be/zmQsC99_MoU
“The definition of success for me: To be able to do what you want, when you want, with whom you want; without any financial constraints.” Dr. Prav Solanki
The highlights of this episode:
8:46 How Prav became a Dentrepreneur17:28 Work Life Balance in Dentistry31:50 Importance of Pitching43:57 Importance of Social Proof on a Consultation Appointment
All of the Protruserati clan get 10% OFF the Business and Mindset Mastery with the code ‘protrusive‘!
Check out this blog with Dr. Prav and his 21-day fast experience
If you enjoyed this episode, you will also like Being Unstoppable with Ferhan Ahmed
How much money is enough? Let’s face it, General Dentist is one of the most challenging jobs in the world - what level of income is worth the stress and health risks? This is a very personal question and will vary according to each Dentist's money mindset and personal values. Dr. James Martin joins us again to discuss personal finances for Dentists.
https://youtu.be/QwtQ43cU2uY Check out this full episode on YouTube
“Your rich life is determined by your little network, your family, your friends, your nearest and dearest - THAT is worth more than any amount of money.” Dr. Jaz Gulati
The highlights of this episode:
4:28 How much money is enough for Dentists?
11:42 How does one decide how much money is enough for them?
15:16 When do you envision Retirement?
18:57 Financial Independence
23:23 Importance of Saving
36:40 Should associates look towards practice ownership?
41:41 Summary Points
Check out this book recommended by Dr. Jaz: I Will Teach You To Be Rich By Ramit Sethi
If you enjoyed this episode, do check out Money – 5 reflections to help you get started with Investing
Full episode transcript available within 72 hours!
Be proactive. Be the master of your destiny. We have another non-clinical topic all about 'making your own luck' in Dentistry and in life including landing your dream associate position with Dr. Rupert Monkhouse, the removable prosthodontic wizard from Suction Lower Complete Dentures – Improve your Removable Prosthodontics
https://youtu.be/7AODxoWKwTs Check out this full episode on YouTube
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
“I made my own luck by thinking, you know what, I AM going to go for this. It's the same as rocking up to somewhere like the BACD conference or the ITI conference, or Tubules” Dr. Rupert Monkhouse
The highlights of this episode:
How Dr. Rupert landed his ideal associate position 7:04How Dr. Rupert managed to work full time 13:12Advice for a young dentists looking for their ideal associate position 18:43Dr. Rupert’s journey of development in finding his niche 31:22
Don't forget to check out The Impression Club and also Dr. Rupert Monkhouse's Instagram
If you loved this episode, you will like How to Find An Associate Position in 4 Mins Flat
Click below for full episode transcript:
“Opening
[Rupert] Well, I think from my sort of perspective doing those Saturdays the reason why she asked me to do those Saturdays is because especially when none of our associates want to do Saturdays, they're all that was, they're all that little bit older or they've you know, they've got their two kids or whatever, they don't want to do Saturdays. And that's true of a lot of private practices. They don't want to do Saturdays. They also don't want to do Wednesdays or whatever. So whenever people ask me, I always say go and find, go and research 5, 10 practices in your area that look fantastic. And just go to them say look, do you want someone to work on a Saturday because probably they do.
Jaz's Introduction:Hello, Protruserati! I'm Jaz Gulati and welcome back to this interference cast, where we take a slight non clinical ditto it's with our friend Dr. Rupert Monkhouse from #impressionclub. Listen, if you don't follow this guy on Instagram, you are missing out. This guy is like making removable prosthodontics sexy again, and you may remember him way back in episode 73, where we discuss lower complete suction dentures, right? So this guy is a wizard, you need to check him out. And today we talk about something a little bit different. Rupert actually works quite close to me. So we met up and I like to hear stories of how he got his first or not his first associate position. But where is that at the moment, a beautiful practice. And it very much covers this theme, which is a question I get a lot of how do I go about getting my first associate position. And just if you scroll down on Apple or Spotify or wherever you're listening, if you're watching on YouTube, I did an episode recently how to get an associate position in four minutes. Okay, so if you haven't seen that, please check it out. But essentially, this is a story of how I got my first associate position, his story of how Rupert got his first associate position. And how the relevant theme here is to be proactive. Nothing will happen if you're reactive. So if you're reactive, you wait for things to happen, and then you will respond. Whereas when you're proactive, you are forcing change, you are a force to be reckoned with. You are actually a master of your own ship. You're in charge of your own destinies, does that makes sense? This is what it's all about. So the message and the lessons from this episode will hopefully inspire you to change the way you look at the world and look at dentistry and look at your career options to hopefully put yourself in a better position going forward. Let's catch the main interview with Rupert and I'll catch you in the outro.
Main Interview:
[Jaz] Rupert #impressionclub Monkhouse. Welcome back to the Protrusive Dental Podcast, my friend how are you?
Principal's tell me it's difficult to find associates. Associates tell me it's hard to find good principals. What on Earth is going on?! In this episode I'm going to share with you a really powerful, underutilized technique to to help associates boost their chances of getting an associate position.
https://youtu.be/Bjnud4VQ7rI Check out this full episode on YouTube
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
“Sometimes you should do something outside the box. Let me show you you a powerful example.” Dr. Jaz Gulati
In this episode I revealed:
Power of 4-minute Technique 2:06How to Find an Associate Position 4:27
If you loved this episode, you will like Not Your Average Young Dentist Journey
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Prerequisite of being able to do this technique is you need to put your (beep sound) on the table, ie, you need to get out of your shell...
Jaz's Introduction: In this episode, I'm going to share with you a really powerful, underutilized technique to help you in associate, find your dream associate position. What's going on Protruserati? Principals are telling me that it's almost impossible to find a good associate. Associates are telling me that it's really difficult to find associate positions and good principals and good practices. So what's going on? Why does this difference? Why does this situation exist where each group isn't yearning for the other, but we're having that friction between associates and principles in terms of finding each other. Now, obviously, there are big issues that you know, not nurses like so difficult find a nurse. But when it comes to associates and principals, there are bigger things at play here, like huge things. But I'm going to just share this one technique, just wanted to share this one really powerful technique, which I've observed. And I think you still need to do the fundamentals of finding an associate position. Now the fundamentals I cover in IC episodes, so interference cast episode 5, and interference cast episode 6, which is finding an associate position and working on your CV and portfolio. All those things you need to ideally have in place, but not essential and not mandatory to use this really, really cool technique, which I'm gonna share with you now. To clarify, before I tell you this powerful 4-minute technique, it's not like four minutes as in like at 6:01 you do this technique and 6:05 you have a job, it doesn't quite work like that. It will take you four minutes to do or less, right? That's how powerful it is, so efficient, okay? And then I will be amazed that if within four days you don't get at least one job offer. I'll be absolutely gobsmacked. Okay, so this is how powerful this is.
Main Interview: To demonstrate the power of this technique, I'm going to make it really tangible. I'm gonna give you an example of when I saw it in use around about a year and a bit ago, and it just blew my mind. I hope it blows your mind as well and also then reveals what the technique is, okay? So we see on social media, on Facebook, wherever, adverts from principals and practices all the time. You know, we're looking for an associate to work, you know, three days a week, and this is the ruination and we have all the toys and all the tools and great earning potential and blah, blah. But we seldom see the associate posting say, 'Hey, I'm an associate and I think I have these credentials. And I am looking for this type of practice. Come at me', right? We don't see that, okay? But that is super super powerful. Let me prove how powerful it is to you, okay? One of my buddies, Greg. Hello Greg, I don't know if you listen to this podcast or not but it's nice to see you, use this technique with some success, and hope you don't mind me sharing your example. I think with Greg I can do this because Greg was my captain in the cricket team I played in during uni. So Greg, Hey Greg,
There is WAY too much plastic in our profession - it's insane. How can we do our part in Dentistry to make better choices for our environment? NOW is the time to spread positive messages for the environment to make a better world for our children and our children's children. In this interference cast, we are joined by Dr. Mike Gow and Marcus McLeod who basically have started the journey to Net Zero Dentistry
https://youtu.be/n8rSYpf0ld0 Check out this full episode on YouTube
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
“So even if you can do a small thing.....get involved, get active and we will make a difference. This is going to happen. So be part of it!” Dr Mike Gow
In this episode, we talked about
Implementation of Managing Net Zero Dentistry 6:42Mental Health element of Dentistry 13:59Similar Advocates Internationally 16:50Aligner recycling Companies 17:49Quick wins Practices that aren't doing Net Zero Dentistry 20:46Being green in dentistry 24:55
Check out the Net Zero Dentistry and Let’s all contribute on becoming a greener world
If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like What Every Dentist Should Know About Managing Dental Anxiety
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: You're going to save money. Okay? And we look at the bottom line in Dentistry, we look at our profits at the end of year, you will have more bottom line profits if you follow Net Zero dentistry and follow the stuff that we're going to be talking about and that is a simple fact that will be true. You will also motivate your team. Okay? This is something that everybody in the clinic can get involved with...
Jaz' Introduction: Hello, Protruserati. I'm Jaz Gulati and welcome this really, really important interference cast on how we as a profession can be greener? The time is now. It's right now, we take some massive action in our profession throughout the world, so we can have a better future for our children and our children's children. Guys, I hope this episode makes Greta Thunberg proud. I'm joined today by Dr. Mike Gow and Marcus McLeod, who basically have started this initiative, this free initiative for us all called Net Zero dentistry. I think it's a great idea. I'm fully in support of it, I want you to listen to this episode so badly. So you can implement something like for example, when I recorded with these gents, I made a promise to walk to work every day. So it doesn't have to be just like purely dental reducing plastic, which obviously we're gonna cover all that in this episode, what we can do at the workplace to be greener, even thinking outside the box. But what can we do in our lives having a meat free day, walking, being mindful of our energy consumption? All these things are so important. So yes, this is dentistry, it's very relevant to dentistry, and how we can be as a profession greener but just you personally as well. Hope you find value in this episode if you do share it with someone. Okay? Now is the time to spread positive messages for the environment like this one. Anyway, I catch you in the outro.
Main Interview: [Jaz] Marcus and Mike, Welcome to Protrusive Dental podcast. How are you gents?
[Marcus]Thank you very much. Excellent. [Mike] Very well. Thank you.
[Jaz]Amazing to have you both. Recently I was at the BACD conference in Edinburgh, Mike I was able to reconnect with you. And on that same evening we were discussing about Net Zero dentistry. I thought this is amazing. I want to give this a voice. I want to get people to start talking about how we can be more green obviously recently with COP26. Everything's very topical. We shouldn't have to wait for two Taco to have these kinds of discussions. But here we are. It's a start. And also on the same evening, just a slight little tangent on the same evening. I also met Jeremy Cooper and he was talking about confidential and the mental health aspects of dentistry and the sad areas,
Learn TMD and Bruxism Management as a GDP - SplintCourse launches on Monday! Register for the Big Update
Being a good learner, on a fundamental level, is the very foundation of becoming a great clinician. In this interference cast episode I host Dr. Ferhan Ahmed, a dually-qualified Dentist limited to Implants and the author of the book 'Unstoppable'. Ferhan teaches us mindset hacks and the power of visualisation to being an unstoppable force in Dentistry!
https://youtu.be/yQZ3qTjeDxk Check out this full episode on YouTube
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
“Always put learning before earning. Increasing your knowledge is immensely, immensely powerful, and it will never hold you back.” - Dr Ferhan Ahmed
In this episode we talked about:
Ferhan’s journey from dental school to medical school 5:57Advice to young dentists in pursuing Masters or medical school 9:33Power of visualization 16:09Kind of learning styles 22:26Takeaway message of the book ‘Unstoppable’ 29:17Rewarding yourself 35:38Communication tip 38:55
Grab a copy of Dr. Ferhan’s Book: BEING UNSTOPPABLE
As promised, the books that recommended by Dr. Ferhan
'Atomic Habits' By James Clear (Jaz can also vouch for how awesome both these books are)'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' By Robert Kiyosaki
If you enjoyed this episode, you will also like 6 Signs You are a Comprehensive Dentist with Dr Jaz Gulati!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Hello, Protruserati. I'm Jaz Gulati and Welcome back to an interference cast. Now, if you're new to the podcast, welcome. It's great to have you. An interference cast is a non clinical interruption. And if you're a usual listener, welcome back...
Jaz's Introduction: In this episode, we have Ferhan Ahmed. Now Ferhan is an awesome clinician. And he wrote this book called 'Unstoppable', which is a great contribution because it does so much for charity. But it's one of those books, which is very much in the realms of personal development. I'm a sucker for personal development books, I love anything in that genre of personal development. So the reason I like this book by Ferhan, is that it's personal development book, but it talks to me. It talked to me as a dentist, because he is a dentist, turn medic. And now he focuses on full arch implant work. And it was very inspiring. I think it's something that you know, we need to focus more on the non clinical sometimes, be it the mindset. So what do you expect to gain from this episode is to explore a little bit about your learning style, what is your learning style, and really focusing on bigger picture type stuff. And one of the biggest takeaways, I think, is the power of visualization. Now, let Ferhan do the honors explain a bit. But yeah, the times where I use visualization is like, macro visualization, like bigger projects, like, when I'm developing the podcast, I'm visualizing things, when I do public speaking, or lecturing or whatever, I am going to be doing some visualization in my head, I would have given that talk, my eyes closed and when I'm in bed, and I would have spoken to people how I'm going to look, how I'm going to say things, what I'm going to say. So a lot of times I've rehearsed things in my mind, but also, like, if I'm doing a surgical wisdom tooth that is just beyond my comfort zone, I will mentally rehearse that surgical procedure. Or if I'm doing anything complex, multiple crowns, things that are just stepping out of my comfort zone, I'm always rehearsing it in my mind, what could possibly go wrong? How am I gonna accept the instrument for my nurses hand? Like to this tiny little details. So one big takeaway from this episode is the power of visualization. Anyway, hope you enjoy this interference cast with Ferhan, and let's become unstoppable.
Main Interview: [Jaz] Ferhan Ahmed, welcome to the Protrusive Dental Podcast, my friend.
[Ferhan] Thanks, man
Dr Jane Lelean will teach us how to implement 'Hypnodontics' techniques so that we can calm our patients, create a positive environment and even reduce post-operative clinical complications!
https://youtu.be/oesEIRfJvdE Check out this full episode on YouTube
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
“Hypnodontics isn't just for patients, many dentists are using it to reduce their stress levels and their anxieties too” - Dr Jane Lelean
In this episode, we discuss:
Is there an official qualification before practicing hypnodontics? 8:24Two general types of hypnotherapy 9:13Evidence-Base of hypnodontics in Dentistry 11:57How can we incorporate hypnodontics in our practice 15:45Reducing post operative complications and pain with hypnodontics 26:43Changing the post operative instructions 30:02Help from Hypnotherapist regarding Bruxism 36:28
Check out The Institute of Dental Business to learn more about Hypnodontics and Hypnotherapy with Jane Lelean.
If you loved this episode, please do check out What Every Dentist Should Know About Managing Dental Anxiety with Dr. Mike Gow
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: So Hypnodontics isn't just for patients. Many dentists are using it to reduce their stress levels and their anxieties too...
Jaz's Introduction: Hello, Protruserati. I'm Jaz Gulati, welcome to this interference cast a non clinical interruption today on Hypnodontics, hypnosis in dentistry and how you can apply it on Monday morning. I'm joined today by Jane Lelean. Now I hope you enjoyed that previous occlusion episode, I did the basics of occlusion. I've got basics of occlusion two coming up, I'm recording with Mahmoud Ibrahim tomorrow, and we're gonna put together our philosophies to come up with something even more impactful, try and build on that first episode, really just set the scene on why occlusion is confusing, why occlusion is both perhaps overplayed at some points and when it might be super important. So if you haven't listened to basics of occlusion, go back one episode and listen to that one. Anyway, today is about hypnosis in dentistry. And not like, not in a wishy washy kind of way. Like I want you to be able to apply some techniques on Monday morning with your patients to get results. The kind of results I'm talking about is this, right? I am very used to now when I'm explaining risks to patients, or once I've done let's say a deep restoration, I say to my patient, "Hey, you know what, you could get a severe throbbing ache. And if that happens, that's a sign that the nerve is dying. And that can be a very painful thing. It might be worse at nighttime. If you get a spontaneous pain, please give me a call, take some painkillers." This is very much a risk from this procedure, right? So I set them up, In my mind, what I was doing is I was underselling and over delivering so that when they don't get that pain, they think, 'Wow, Jaz is awesome.' So there's a benefit in that, I guess. So I guess I'm happy with the way I've done things. But today, what Jane showed me, what she's gonna share with you is to think about it in a slightly different way. How can we use the power of hypnosis? Which is basically like an altered state of the mind to benefit you and benefit your clinical outcomes. Like, if you tell your patient Look, there are certain patients who are almost like easy to hypnotize. So if you tell them, "Look, you're gonna get swelling, you get pain, like this." And then they come back two days later say "Yeah, it's swollen and painful." And you're like, "Well, that's normal." But they sort of, they made this like Mind-Body connection, they make themselves worse, they make themselves more sick. So equally, if you can sort of hypnotize people in a way for want of a better word, put these people in an altered state of emotion, altered state of mind, then your clinical outcomes might be better, might get less swelling, less dry sockets.
It's my sister's wedding but the Protrusive team managed to get this out for you - and boy it is a good one! Dr Omid Azami AKA The Noobie Dentist will inspire to you adopt a growth Mindset.
https://youtu.be/NSEbShIeD04 Check out this full episode on YouTube
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
“Have that mindset like 'it's a journey', you're never 'there' necessarily. You can always get better, and do more.” - Dr. Omid Azami
Here with me, Dr. Omid Azami, host of Noobie Dentist Podcast, who inspires and gives voices to clinicians all over the world and inspiring Dentists. In this Interference Cast, we discuss all about:
Tips on making life more efficient, better and more productive. (09:26)Key attributes that help a young dentist to become great. (16:33)Tips and tricks to make a habit of taking photos. (20:54)Journey of self-discovery. Finding your pathways and niche. (24:20)Importance of mentorship, even remote mentorship. (32:58)Most inspirational guest from Noobie dentist and their takeaways (39:03)
If you want to learn more, please do subscribe at Dr. Omid Azami’s Noobie Dentist Podcast
If you liked this episode, you will definitely love and will learn a lot from the episode 10 Habits of Highly Successful (and Most Valued) Dentists
Click here for Full Episode Transcription:
Opening Snippet: As an example early on i was all about the money right? I was, you know, in toronto I was a new grad I was like I want to make you know x amount of dollars per year and day to day like my happiness was like up and down on how much production I had and how much I was making and it was pretty early on I was like man this is not a good way to like think about dentistry of just like how much money am I making. Let's instead focus on my clinical outcomes like is my restoration is looking better today? Is my marginal contours better? Is my contacts better? Is my extractions faster and cleaner? Is my post-op comforts? So that's I had that mind you know mindset change and it really made me happier because I was challenging myself to you know learn the craft better day to day instead of just focusing on the money and the outcome side of it...
Jaz's Introduction: Hello, Protruserati. I'm Jaz Gulati. Welcome to this interference cast with Omid Azami better known as the host of the Noobie Dentist podcast. This episode was actually shot many months ago. Right now when i'm recording this introduction I'm quite nasal. I'm so sorry. I have got a bit of a non-covid bug. It's a bad timing but at least it's non-covid. I've got that confirmed. It's my sister's wedding at the moment and for those of you who are familiar with Indian weddings It's not like a one-day affair, I wish it was a one-day affair. This is like a three-week bonanza I am so grateful I have just one sibling but anyway let's make the most of it. I've got my son. I've got good food to look forward to. Dancing. Indian colors and festivities and traditions. So I've got a lot of that going on. I've got a lot of the episodes on autopilot that have been pre-recorded So they'll be getting released by the team over the next few weeks. So you won't go a week without having a Protrusive dental podcast episode, don't worry. This themes, the themes that we cover in this episode are very much related and intertwines some of the previous themes that we'd cover The theme of journey. The theme of career decisions. The theme of mindset and the theme of just being the best version of you. The two biggest takeaways that you might get from this episode is funnily enough something I like to call toilet university and yes I have no shame and number two is something that only describes later in the episode as the social multiplier effect and something that's so relevant in dentistry. So i hope you enjoyed me and Omid just you know have vibing out chatting about dentistry in Australia. Dentistry in UK and how to power up your mindset in dentistry....
A fun little comparison episode discussing the differences between Dentistry in the States and in the UK - in this episode I am joined by the host of Dentistry Rising podcast, Dr Bette Robin!
https://youtu.be/N_u8LkD8EnY
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Dr. Bette Robin, who desired to make a massive change in her life and left clinical Dentistry some years ago and went in to Law and practice sales - she never looked back! Join us in this light hearted discussion where we chat about:
Cultural differences in USA vs UK Dentistry - dental school, earnings, biggest barriers, treatment plansHow the national health systems compare Finding different paths out of DentistryHow to become a better communicator
SplintCourse update: Enrolment ends on Monday 21st June! Enroll now by clicking here to join a community of Dentists around the world who want to End Splint Confusion!
If you enjoyed this episode, then do check out Dr. Bette Robin on her Dental Rising Podcast
You might also enjoy The American Dental Dream – PDP002 with Dr. Kristina Gauchan!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Is another cultural difference I mean dental cultural difference is that we have this perception in American dentist that you guys are, no offense. You guys are really aggressive like treatment plans is that you guys are like you know you got like two hand pieces of his big fat burs and rages crowns everything.
Jaz's Introduction: Hello, Protruserati. I am Jaz Gulati and welcome to this interference cast all about the differences between UK and US dentistry. It's quite a light hearted interference cast view today with someone very special. Her name is Dr. Bette Robin, and she's the host of Dentistry Rising podcast. And it's from podcasting. And her being a dentist actually doesn't practice dentistry anymore, which is actually interesting. So we'll discuss that in a moment. But her also being a podcaster in the dental niche, we sort of connected on this software podcasting platform. We joined this weekly mastermind all about communities and online courses. And we're both part of that. And what are the odds that two dentists, who podcast who re also interested in running successful online courses were eeting together. So that's what he story of how I got to meet Dr. Bette Robin. And then I got o listen to her podcast and t's really great. I really like er voice actually. So we had a ery light hearted discussion bout the differences, the ultural differences in USA ersus UK as a dentist, what are he earnings like? What are the iggest barriers like? One hocking thing for me was the evel of debt that US graduates an land themselves in. But also he understandably was quite hocked to learn about how the ational Health System works ere in the UK. So it makes a ery interesting sort of fly on he wall sort of listening istenership you guys, let's oll to the main interview, and I'd catch you in the outro.
Main Interview:
[Bette]Well, I'm here on the Dentistry Rising Podcast today with Jaz Gulati, who's a dentist in England. And Jaz and I met on an online study club on how to do online classes. And I was just absolutely thrilled that in the small little study group that another dentist joined. So what part of England are you from Jaz?
[Jaz]Hey, Bette, thanks so much for being on. I'm enjoying doing this sort of joint thing with you. And like you said, you mentioned, what are the odds of two dentists in this very small, little micro niche, finding each other. So that's been fun in the last, I guess, three or four months connecting with you on that I'm based in London and Reading. So it's a place called Reading, but I guess most of your listeners will obviously know, London in England. And that's where I practice as an associate. I also have my own podcast, the Protrusive Dental Podcast, obviously this is going on both of our podcasts.
Is it possible to be a Comprehensive Dentist on the NHS? How did Dr Devang Patel rise within NHS Dentistry to provide high level, complex care to his patients?
https://youtu.be/Wy3NiZVa-3U Only on Protrusive Website
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Protrusive Dental Pearl
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In this episode we hear Dr Devang Patel's journey from working in a 99% NHS clinic to now carrying out complex general Dentistry at a very high level. I quizzed him on how it's possible in a public funded system?
If you enjoyed this episode, you will like the Case Acceptance in Smile Design episode with Gurs Sehmi!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Because i don't think i'm still quite distant from that past because what happens i think that's what one of the issue is that everywhere you go like all the courses John West or whatever you know they all are aimed towards private dentistry. They all are either a private dentist i mean i have yet to see a mixed dentist, a dentist who's doing in a mixed NHS practice running a really big courses and promoting that. I'm sure there are out there but most of the big names are all private dentists and that leaves dentists with the illusion that okay you know we can't really do this in national health because we don't have the patience cohort and they can do it because they're NHS, they're private you know they can do whatever they like...
Jaz's Introduction: This episode is brought to you by make me clear now make me clear.com is a website i use to make really beautifully presented treatment plans for my patients so anytime i'm doing a bigger plan i will use make me clear you can slot in your photos your text all the diagnoses it's got these visual charts which are which are nothing like the nasty ones you have on your uh software that you use at work these are really easy to understand for the patients with a great way to communicate costs and different phases of treatment and if you haven't already listened to episode 49 with the founder of make me clear Dr. Jorge Cardoso you should definitely check it out and listen to the value it can have for you as a dentist even if it increases your case acceptance by one patient for the whole year it's totally worth it. So do check out make me clear in fact one of the Protruserati, Rob Young had this to say Rob said "I've started using mmc the other day it's a game changer for me and my practice patients love the report and communicating costs is made so much easier. " So guys check out episode 49 and if you like make me clear do the 21 day free trial to get 25% off use the coupon code "protrusive". So once again makemeclear.com coupon code protrusive for 25% off but see for yourself do the 21 day free trial, give the treatment plans to your patients and just see for yourself the impact it has to your practice hope you enjoy this next episode. Hello, Protruserati. I'm Jaz Gulati and welcome to this interference cast on NHS versus private dentistry. Now it's not what you think it's not the cats versus dog sort of fights that you see on social media where nhs dentists and private dentists are going at each other's throats. None of that. It's not happening. Think of this episode as nhs versus private in terms of is it possible to be a comprehensive dentist on the nhs? Is it possible to practice a high level of dentistry whilst also having an nhs contract? That's the kind of burning question i want to answer today and to answer i've got Dr Devang Patel, who is such a brilliant dentist and you'll hear his j...
'What on earth is Clubhouse?' I hear you ask. Well, it's kind of like being in a Whatsapp room with Richard Branson...and instead of typing you're all just leaving live voicenotes. It's like a Live Podcast and you get to contribute (sometimes). It's also like a cult - it's super addictive and invitation-only (at the time of publishing this).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9POp8N9-Os Kevin Rose - who helps Dentists 'Think'
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
My favourite thing about Clubhouse is that sometimes you're not in the right state or environment to be on video - this audio-only platform has gained a lot of popularity!
I have seem some great Rooms (like a Whatsapp group) within Dentistry where a lot of knowledge bombs have been dropped. There is something beautiful about Live content that is difficult to get a replay for - the FOMO factor is real!
In this Interference Cast I am joined by Kevin Rose who helps drive better conversations in Dentistry.
TLDR: I think Dentistry has a home in Clubhouse - we can learn and share great content (live podcast, right?) - we can also use it to change public perceptions of Dentistry.
It's probably not going to land you many patients in your chair, if that's why you're on it. You need to see a bigger picture!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Hello, Protruserati. I'm Jaz Gulati and welcome to this interference cast on something very topical, it's clubhouse...
Jaz's Introduction: You were thinking what the hell's clubhouse, don't worry we'll cover what clubhouse is but before you continue it's basically a new app it's like a new form of social media where you're just listening and you're speaking there's no video involved so imagine like the way i described in this episode is it's like a whatsapp group except everyone's constantly like talking and interacting in that way rather than by video so that's what clubhouse is. Is there a place for dentistry in clubhouse? I think there is and hopefully you'll be able to see that there is a role that all dentists can have in clubhouse. So if you are already on clubhouse join the room, the clinical dentistry and communication room. I'm calling it teach preach and leech and i nicked it from a group I am part of in singapore and this is going to be a room to just discuss clinical dentistry, your clinical issues i think in the next episode we're discussing composite veneers versus ceramic veneers, the do's and don'ts. The sort of things on case selection for each of those and why one may be superior than the other that kind of stuff so it's like a live podcast if you like. So join me on wednesday evenings at 8 p.m. I'll put the link on protrusive.co.uk and every time i go on clubhouse at the moment i'm putting on the Protrusive dental community Facebook group. Joining me in this episode is Kevin Rose, i'll let him introduce himself in the episode so i hope you enjoy and brings you value about clubhouse in density.
Main Interview: Kevin Rose, welcome to the podcast how are you? -Very very well indeed thank you good morning.. How are you? - Very good thank you it's my son's first day at nursery today so i am actually super anxious, excited like he's had like these little settling sessions but today's like first whack so yeah i'm kind of scared. How old is that these days? When they go to nursery is it..? It depends. He's 19 months so it really depends like some some kids i know been you know in nursery since who are six months old or young so he's 19 months and we thought this is the best time now for him to start picking learning a few extra things plus we're moving out soon so at the moment i don't know if you know, Kevin i live with my parents so since i came back from singapore 2017, been living my parents. Finally fleeing the nest because it's just the way it worked out. It's somewhere closer to to work so i can cut out the commute and then so this is a ...
Think of this episode as a love letter to the Protruserati. We share the same struggles, and this episode could easily have been called the 6 STRUGGLES of a Comprehensive Dentist.
https://youtu.be/DCTgR93Tk3c The struggle is real
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Here they are:
You take your work home with you
Dentistry was either mis-sold to me, or I was just naive. When I was a Dental student I read a young dentist magazine. It had a segment dedicated to interviews with DF1 Dentists who had finished their first year in practice.
'What do you love most about being a Dentist?,' was one of the questions. One answer caught my eye: 'I love that I do not take my work home with me.'
I loved that! But after almost 8 years out of dental school, I can tell you (and my wife can testify!) that I find it impossible to be a comprehensive Dentist and NOT bring my work home with me.
Treatment planning, organising photos, letters to patients, clinchecks and the list is endless - it will be a longer list for practice owners!
New patient examinations will drain you
It takes a lot of emotional energy to see new patients. There is a difference between the 15 minute new patient exam and the 45 minutes or 1 hour new patient exam.
The longer appointments to learn what the patients goals are and help find the right solutions can be extremely challenging and require intense focus, and dare I say, showmanship.
As my principal (Hap Gill) once taught me, we are in show business.
You have more to give and more to say
The classic sign of this is that your Nurse is always nagging you that 'you talk too much'.
You just want to make the patient's experience as valuable as possible!
You dont earn enough moneyControversial. I know. If I could double your income but simplify your Dentistry and limit you to single tooth dentistry - you would probably say no. THAT speaks volumes.You do it for the bigger picture and for passion.Yes the comprehensive Dentist MIGHT gross more, but the amount of money you spend on equipment and courses can be eye-watering. That, and your hourly rate from all the work you do it home is ever-diminishing.
Patients always say 'you are the first person who told me this' or, the more sinister cousin, 'why has no dentist ever told me this before?!'I never know what is the right way to handle this. I just smile and say 'I love my job so much, that sometimes I care more about a patient's mouth than they do!' To clarify, I am suggesting I care more than the patient (not more than any previous Dentist - we should never throw our colleagues under the bus).
- If someone ever stole your laptop, they would be so dissapointed
Admit it. Your phone and laptop is full of forum screenshots, lecture photos, teeth, abscesses, shade matching photos (heaven forbid) and the odd bitewing for good measure!
If you enjoyed this episode, you will also like 12 Rules for Dentistry with David Bretton!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Hi guys, it's Jaz Gulati here from the Protrusive Dental podcast and i really should be doing this live right now like this would be such a great topic to to have live on facebook or instagram to see people's comments and stuff but unfortunately timings don't work out, right now the time is 4 15 p.m and there's like zero audience for me right?...
Jaz's Introduction: So i'm pitching this and recording this you know just to the camera and i hope you enjoy this. I've just been you know one of those things where you just daydream and you sometimes get get carried away and i thought you know what this would make a really cool interference cast episode which i haven't done in ages. So let's roll with it. These are six signs that you are a comprehensive dentist and i also thought about calling it the six struggles of a comprehensive dentist because every one of these signs i'm gonna give you is a struggle.
I want to talk about maximising your learning potential from all the courses that you attend, but particularly the online ones.
I was inspired from listening to a book called Limitless by Jim Kwik (check it out if you're in to maximising your potential and the human mind). It had so many gems in there which I thought would be so useful for Dentists to learn when we're attending courses so they have more impact on us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Qc0BwTGRU
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
More importantly, now that with COVID-19, a lot of the education is going online. You now commonly hear the phrase "I'm webinared out" - we are attending too many webinars and are itching for in-person courses again.
Over lockdown it was definitely the case, you could fill your whole day with webinars during lockdown. That just gave us digital fatigue.
I want to refresh and recap on what are the ways that you can maximise your learning while you're on dental courses, but particularly on the online courses, so you don't feel "webinared out" or "digital fatigue".
We can apply this to any online education - in fact, as a Dentist you probably already subscribe to membership only platforms for dental education. However, like many of us in our busy lives, you may be guilty of not giving these platforms enough time to gain from them.
It is so important to make time to actually watch that content and actually immerse yourself in that content. I like to call this 'protected time'.
Time is scarce. This is why when you do find time to watch these videos on the online platforms or actually attend these webinars, your time is so valuable. You really have to maximise what you gain for every single course that you do, and every single video that you watch, and every minute that you invest in them.
This is why I want to share the FAST protocol to maximise your learning, inspired by Jim Kwik and Limitless.
F = Forget
A = Action
S = State
T = Teach
F stands for forget, which sounds crazy. Let's imagine you're doing a course on veneers - maybe a webinar or an online course on veneers. The way to maximise how much you learn from that particular course is to forget everything you know about veneers. One of my favourite quotes is from someone called Malcolm Forbes, and it's "the role of education is to replace an empty mind with an open one".
The A stands for action, and it can also be interpreted as active learning. For me, it's definitely the case that I learn better when I'm taking notes. One thing that Jim Kwik teaches is that we do not learn from consuming. We learn from creating. When I'm creating notes, or when I'm creating mind maps, and some people like typing manually on their iPads or on their laptops, basically almost transcribing what the lecturer is saying... you gain so much more from that process! So note taking or whatever you need to do (whatever creative way that you learn), it's so important to have that rather than just consuming blindly or consuming blankly, you need to be able to create and that way you will learn more.
The other thing that comes with active learning is that multitasking is an absolute myth. We can't multitask effectively. For example, have you ever been on a course and maybe you're sat in the front row with all good intentions...but what happens is that you get a text message from your practice manager or patient emails you and now your attention is completely somewhere else. And now you're dealing with a staffing issue or a patient issue. Of course then you leave the the course to make a phone call. You're now dealing with the patient or the staffing issue. You're absent from the course. It's basically that you're trying to juggle a few things at the same time, and it's just not going to work. You're not going to maximise your learning potential.
You have to focus intensely on that course in front of you and forget everythin...
Dental Recruitment is Changing!
https://youtu.be/1WmvW9-1YWE
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Would you rather work in a lavish dental clinic with all the bells and whistles, but with a high turnover of nurses and lacking a culture or ethos…OR, work in a 'mediocre' clinic with happy staff and a thriving culture?
What makes an awesome dental practice, and how can associates and therapists find them? Where are they hiding? Are they as rare as a 'good associate'? What is that even about?
In the latest episode I chat with Andy Saunders and Simon Tucker about how dental recruitment has evolved - it is a purpose built episode if you are looking for a new opportunity or even if you are a principal looking to hire the right team member.
We discuss:
Why traditional methods of hiring Dentists, Therapists and Nurses may not be effective or good value any moreThe three types of CVs you needThe power of the Video CVImportance of the same values within the teamHow to find your 'tribe' and the practice you belong in (and why you cannot just go by what their website looks like)The features and indicators we SHOULD be looking for in a new practice
If you like the new face of dental recruitment (or finally, just a face!) and want Andy and Openwide to help you, reach out to Andy!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Hello, Simon Tucker and Andy Saunders and welcome everyone who's listening to the Protrusive Dental podcast today...
Jaz's Introduction: This episode is all about careers as an associate and a bit of a continuation of the episode I did about finding an associate position and about your CVS. It's a very hot, sunny day today, end of June.
Main Interview:
[Jaz]So Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining me if you just kindly introduce yourselves, and tell us about why I might have interfered in terms of what you think why I've got you on the episode today to talk about finding an associate position and start with you, Andy.
[Andy]Yeah, yeah. Good afternoon. My name is Andy Saunders, as you alluded to, I am the founder of the Openwide Group. We're a careers consultancy for the dental industry. I've got a bit of a different take on how I believe recruitment should be undertaken. I have over 10 years experience of running a recruitment business, we launched it, we took it from naught to 25 million in eight years, it was then sold to one of the big boys. So I feel that I'm in quite a good position to tell people how to position themselves so that they are maximizing their output for how they can best show themselves off to potential new principals. They might want to be owning their own practice how they can then recruit their own associates. But ultimately, I'm really passionate about how dentists A) how they recruit. And we've come up with a mythology, the three R's of recruitment, which I'm sure will allude to a bit later on, or
[Jaz]Andy, I think what you're doing is you're taking your experience from your recruitment of days, in these successful companies that you know, help with, and you're bringing that into the dental industry, you really shaking it up. And the reason I wanted to bring you on is because one thing you said to me was 'how CVS are now changing,' because over the past few weeks, I've been involved with helping lots of dentists with their CVS, because then, you know, then, since that episode I released about CVS, they've been sending me their CVS for my opinion. And I've been happy to help. But one thing that you told me about how CVS may not be the best way anymore, that really say the back of my mind, and I really want to talk about that today, as well, Simon, please tell us a little about yourself.
[Simon]Hello, Jaz, thanks for inviting me on. I'm a salesman. And for over 35 years of my life, I've been selling dental products and services, to dental practices all over the world. I've lived in the States,
This episode aims to navigate the Dentist around the complicated world of Respiratory Protective Equipment (RPE). I literally start from the basics and we build up - hope this helps!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30dNlplwdoI
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
What is a Fit test vs Fit checkWho should be paying for the FFP masks?! Associates?!Oops I failed my fit test - what now?Should we just drop FFP2/FFP3 and just use re-usable RPE that is way more cost effective?UDCs are reportedly keeping the same FFP3 mask on for several patients (1 per session) with a surgical mask on top - if they are getting away with it, can we do it in practice to save money?Does FFP2 NEED to be fit tested? Can you get away without one if you compensate with a face shield?What's the difference between FFP2 and FFP3?What does a FFP even mean?Should you be stocking up now?Watch out for the fakes!Will there be a phased return or 'chaotic return'?If I am antibody positive, do I need to bother with all this?DO we need more fit testers? How to get involved?How are we going to meet the healthcare demand of fit testing?When do you think I'll get to place composites again?!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Hi, guys, welcome to another episode of Protrusive Dental podcast...
Main Interview:
[Jaz]This one's all about respiratory protective equipment. It's a massive, massive topic at the moment. And I just want to help out by covering a little bit mostly because I felt as though I knew nothing. And I had some people reach out to me, what do we do about our beards? Do we get FFP2s, fit test it, this will make a good topic for your podcast. So I reached out some guys, it culminated in this episode, which is going to cover all the very basics of the more sort of political ethical questions around RPE in dentistry, for whatever it is that we'll be getting back to work. I know the UDCs are working under some conditions whereby they have access to some forms of RPE. So discussing all that, I have to give a disclaimer that one of the reasons I made this episode was because I am concerned as a Sikh man, with a turban and a beard, but how I'm going to go back to work and certainly for those in my community, how are we going to get back to work and I want voice or my community to be heard. So that's one of the reasons but that makes up around about 0.2% of this podcast. This podcast episode is applicable to everyone. But I do want to reach out to my community and sort of offer them something. And basically, there's not much in it in terms of how I can help people with beards, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, those of us who have facial hair, essentially, we are at the mercy of the higher powers, the WHO, Public Health England, the CDO, NHS England. So all these bodies are advising us. And actually, they are all blind. And what I mean by that is that there is just not enough evidence yet. So I think the method that everyone is now adopting is a better safe than sorry, hence why at the moment, the guidance suggests that you should be using a filtering SPS for any AGP related procedures. So that's where that guidance comes from. It may be that just a surgical mask and a visor is just as good. But the thing is, we don't know yet. I think the due to political reasons, and due to safety first and being better to be safe than sorry, that's the reason that we're going a bit extreme into some of the guidance recommendations in terms of worker needs to wear these FFP2 or FFP3 masks. So I think that's where that comes from. The only thing I can say is that I was surprised to learn a little bit that all this RPE that we wear is actually mostly to do with protecting us, not so much the patient. Yes, the patient's important as a byproduct, the patient should be protected. But we'll also think about how to protect us as interesting that, for example, if I was to wear an FFP2 mask with my beard, technically,
I was so happy to get feedback from 'Finding An Associate Position' interference cast episode. What you asked for was some more direction on Portfolios, and that's exactly what this episode sets out to do!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1URCtgQdczo
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
As well as showing my own CV (it does not need to be too fancy!) and Portfolio, I tap in to Barry Oulton's experience of hiring - what does he look for in an applicant?
Alan Burgin (@the.cornish.dentist) and I also chat about our journey and the gradual process of organically building your portfolio (it was a snippet from an episode yet to be released).
I echo in the episode that all these things are just to secure your interview - really what matters most is your emotional intelligence and your attitude.
If you know a DF1 that would benefit form this advice, help them out by sharing this podcast with them!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Don't think that you're the bee's knees, and the be all and end all, what you're doing is you're reflecting back, because, you know, we do need to reflect. And so demonstrate the reflection, demonstrate that there's the humble and that you are looking to improve things...
Jaz's Introduction:
Hi, guys, and welcome to another interference cast. This time I'll be talking about portfolios and their relevance. I've got a couple of guests, but a few snippets from a few other episodes, actually new content that will hopefully help in the decision of how to actually make a portfolio, the relevance of it and what principals are looking for, and the journeys of some successful associates and what advice they can impart. I'm going to be sharing with you my own portfolio and my own CV. And that's not to say that my CV is the best CV by any stretch of imagination. I know far more skilled dentist, young dentists who have brilliant, glowing CVS and portfolios. But I'm going to show you mine just warts and all because who does that right? So I'm going to try and be as helpful as I can be. Maybe they'll give you some ideas, some inspiration. And ultimately, I just want to remind you that none of this matters, essentially, as much as your emotional intelligence, your personality, how likable you are, your communication skills. Are you a team player? Everyone I know who is a principal that you really want to work for someone who is really forward thinking, they all have one thing in common, I think from what i've deduced, and that's they'll really hire for personality, rather than the credentials. I think the credentials play a role. And they're important. And that's where I'll show a little bit about portfolios, and what mistakes that I share in my portfolio as part of reflective learning. But ultimately, remember that your personality and your people skills are far far far more important than what's on any piece of paper. Also, making some cameo appearances in this podcast will be Barry Oulton, who will be talking about as someone who's hired lots of dentists before, what is he looking for. And I've also got Alan Burgin, who is such a fantastic guy to speak to, very successful young associate, who I think shares a few gems. If you're a young dentist, that journey that you take into finding your first job or the right job, and he's got a few gems to share. They all both have their own episodes coming up, but I took a few snippets, so they have a few cameo appearances in this episode. Okay, guys, so this is my CV, I've redacted some of my personal details. So it starts off with about me, but even before then, funny story, I used to have like a really stupid funny logo. And then a dentist who I really admire Tommy "Jaz, this a really stupid logo, get rid of it, it really ruins your sort of the hard work that you do and it's lovely, all the lovely things that you've done, you sort of, discrediting it by having this stupid logo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS6UAJmwz9A
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
In this interference cast I discuss my opinions and experiences of finding associate positions and what strategies DF1s and Dentists looking for associate positions should consider.
Is BDJ jobs obsolete?
Can social media help?
Is a dental portfolio over-rated?
Surely, you need to know the right people?
Questions and comments on the video welcome!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Hi, guys, and welcome to this interference cast today on a very important topic, something that I get asked about quite a bit from our younger colleagues...
Main Podcast: And that is basically I'm in df one, how do I go about getting my first associate position? And actually, the things I'm going to share with you today are applicable to those if you're looking for your second, and God forbid your 18th associate position. So there are some things that are parallel or similar between all those stages of your career. So basically, if you're looking for an associate position. What's the best way nowadays? While I'm recording this, we're in lockdown. COVID-19. So yes, what I'm saying may not be applicable right this moment in time, because everything has been sort of disrupted by COVID-19. But the principles are hopefully apply for whenever you're about to find or look for your next associate position. And if you're in df one right now, this is probably something at the forefront of your mind right now, when we come out of COVID-19, you're going to be probably looking for that associate position, your first associate position. And having said that, I'm someone who's done DCT one and DCT two posts in Guys hospital and Charles Clifford Dental hospital respectively. And they're very useful for me, but I'm very much and I've said this before, in a previous episode I recorded with Dhru Shah is make sure you're doing a hospital job for the right reason, do it because you want to, because you enjoy that and not because you're afraid to go into the real world of GDP land, if you like. So make sure you do it for the right reasons. I've said that before. However, nowadays with the COVID-19, and the fact that who knows how long it will take for practice and certainly private practice to get back to normal, it might be another year. So now more than ever, I have to say a hospital DCT position is looking quite favorable for this extra reason of COVID-19. And just job security, income security. So if you're already on the fence about whether you should do a DCT post or go into an associate position, you know, it's not a bad time to be considering doing a DCT position. Even if your ultimate goal is to become a general dental practitioner or a specialist or whatever. It's not a bad thing to consider at this moment in time. So where do you go about looking for your job? Well, firstly, back when I was applying when we like, you know, seven years ago there about the BDJ Jobs was there and I used it. But what I found when I was applying on BDJ Jobs was that the principal would write back to me saying, sorry, we were inundated with applicants and we made our decision. And that's generally why I'm fine, you know, with the with BDJ jobs, those who post a job on there, they're quite often going to be swamped with hundreds of applications, especially if you're in London and south east. So I don't know how effective that is. Whether you're actually posting a associate position in your practice or as an associate when you're applying, you're actually competing against a lot of people. And it's difficult for principals to sort of go through and differentiate, especially if you're only been one year qualified, two years qualified, then I think it's very easy for the principal to say, Okay, I'm going to dismiss these 150 CVS, because these people don't have at least three or four years experience,
During this crappy time in our lives (there is never a good time for a Pandemic, right?!) I turn to one of the most positive people I know, Barry Oulton. This 18 minute chat really uplifted me and I think it will help you all.
We discuss– Mindset– How to view a problem as an opportunity– The importance of love (verb)– Importance of power posing– Importance of Exercise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSmEP0H-R_w
Link to Amy Cuddy video so we can all ‘do Amy’ haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWZluriQUzE
Instagram – @drbarryoulton
FB – The Confident Dentist
Twitter – @drbarryoulton
www.theconfidentdentist.com
www.dentalinjection.com
www.oneminutemindset.co.uk
In this short episode I discuss 3 reflections from a composite veneer case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAGyIySRQUc
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
1) Communication – regarding case communication and case acceptance in an ethical manner
2) Using the Mylar Pull technique for interproximal management Full Youtube video for mylar pull technique:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-fqXLi78P0
3) A bur which I LOVE to use to shape composite aka 'the Perio Bur' (Bur code is 831.204.012)
If you liked this mini episode, please share with a Dentist friend and subscribe to my podcast. Thanks for watching!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Welcome to the Protrusive Dental podcast the forward thinking podcast for dental professionals Join us as we discuss hot topics in dentistry, clinical tips, continuing education and adding value to your life and career with your host, Jaz Gulati...
Main Podcast: Guys, it's Jaz Gulati from the Protrusive Dental podcast and today's interference cast is just three tips I have to share with you. Based on my reflections of doing a composite veneer case recently, patient's main complaint was actually different to begin with. And actually this is part of the sort of the three little tips I want to share with you guys. So let me discuss three learning points from this case number one will be communication tip. Number two will be how I managed the interproximal part of doing composite veneer. And number three will be the composite refinement tip, I've got a bur that I want to recommend to you to use for composite refinement, which I found really useful. So before we come on to that, if you're listening to me on the Protrusive Dental podcast, then yes, you're still gain from this because I'm sharing some stuff that is tangible, even though you're listening and not watching. But it's probably worthwhile going logging on and actually watching the seeing the images, so you get to see what I'm talking about. But anyway, let's proceed. So tip number one I have for you is regarding communication. This patient initially came to me and she had busted her upper right five, she went on to get a vertical crown on upper right five in Zirconia, which I've done and as you can see, that's done. But actually her main complaint after was that actually, I don't like the way my crown looks at the back and she was pointing to her metal ceramic crown on the upper right six, as you can see that she didn't like the fact that the color was a bit off to that yellow bit too warm. And she didn't like the fact that there's a gray line. And we all know why that is a metal ceramic crown is the metal showing through. So when you have a case like this, and you look at this lady smile after her teeth are actually framed really nicely within her lips, she's 68 years old, she looks great when she tells me that she has an aesthetic concern, instead of replacing this upper right six, because there's two good reasons why I shouldn't replace it upper right six. One is that it's still healthy. The margins still good, even though it's done many years ago is still a good tooth. But the second reason is because she has a limited opening. And for me to do a good job back there in a limited opening compared to I'm assuming she had a better opening many years ago when the crown was first done to actually be a pension to be doing a disservice for this patient. That's two good reasons. But the third good reason is will that really massively help her smile. So by changing the upper right six crown to something a bit nicer that says a Zirconia or just a better color with no metal, that may improve her smile and her perception, but really look at the anterior is look at the upper right one, the upper left one and upper left two. Yes, in this particular photo, I've just put a composite blob on to check shade. But if you have a look at this original photo,
Welcome to my 2nd Interference Cast – based on Jordan Peterson’s book 12 Rules for Life.
David Bretton and I came up with our very own 12 Rules for Dentistry!
I had David come on for this because he IS Mr. Positivity in UK Dentistry.
We hope you find these relevant, engaging and ‘real’.
This is the audio version of my Video Podcast recorded earlier this month – if you prefer to watch the video (which I prefer, you get to see our silly facial expressions!) then you can watch it on YouTube or my Facebook page Facebook.com/protrusive or my IGTV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qvDBz06WC4
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
Rule 1 – See Everyone (and it's not quite what you think this means!)
Rule 2 – Create a Positive Environment
Rule 3 – The patient in front of you is the most important person
Rule 4 – Don’t own the patient’s problem
Rule 5 – Do not care about your patients’ teeth more than they do
Rule 6 – Trust your gut
Rule 7 – Take time to take care of yourself
Rule 8 – Focus on your own journey
Rule 9 – Have mentors (it has never been easier!)
Rule 10 – There is no shame in admitting you do not know something
Rule 11 – If you’re not enjoying things, something needs to change
Rule 12 – Enjoy the present moment and the journey
Click below for full episode transcript:
Main Interview: CLICK HERE...
[Jaz]David Bretton. Mr. Positivity?
[David]Jaz, Good to be here.
[Jaz]Absolutely. And I when I thought, right, I want to do something like 12 rules for dentistry because, obviously the book by Jordan Peterson, and a lot of other industries and professions have sort of made their own 12 rules if you'd like. And I thought, right, if I do something like this, there's only one person in the world I can think of who would match it so and who will do it justice. And that's, you
[David]I appreciate that. I didn't know it's your may have connected me since on the sorts of topics I think, really, we've always talked about things beyond the clinical side of things of dentistry.
[Jaz]That's right. Remember the first time we met and we discovered our mutual interest for self development and positivity and that sort of stuff? Do you ever do remember?
[David]It was [inaudible] award?
[Jaz]It was. It was British and ronix. And it was actually you introduced me to Tony Robbins. Yeah. That's quite life changing. If you're the one who introduces someone to Tony Robbins, you've changed someone's life for the better.
[David]You've definitely helped people to that, I'd say we've definitely people.
[Jaz]Awesome. So let's just dive right in.
[David]Dive right in, so about 12, our big rules to go for I think so. Yeah, let's get on a chat about that really.
[Jaz]Absolutely and for those tuning in, and thanks for joining us, you know, these 12 rules are what we make it, have your own 12 rules. It's you know, you might enjoy some of them. You might hate some of them. That's completely cool. Okay? Weird is this something that me and David sort of looked at and agreed on that? You know, actually, and there might be some things that we haven't actually rehearsed this. So there might be some things and I said today Look, it's completely cool if we disagree on something. So let's go. So rule number one for rules in a 12 rules for dentistry or 12 rule for dentists or everyone involved in dentistry is see everyone. So David, I came up, well I didn't come up with this rule. I pinched this rule from a book that's called If I could just tell you one thing by Richard Reed, have you read that one?
[David]I haven't. No.
[Jaz]So Richard Reed, he he's basically meets all these powerful people in the world. And he just answered one piece of advice. And what Bill Clinton said was See everyone. And what that means is basically that Bill Clinton, he has a very special talent, or a gift is that he makes everyone feel important from the person wh...
In this mini episode (interference cast – see what I did there?), I discuss about key lessons in protocols and philosophies I have learned from 3 awesome Dentists: Prof Nicolas Martin, Dr Rajiv Ruwala and Dr Jerry Lim.
Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!
https://youtu.be/_CEXnLyE_rw
Full episode also transcribed and on Video to watch, including my IGTV.
Take home points:
Have protocols in place in Clinical Dentistry so that your workflow becomes predictableTrain your staff well and make them familiar with your systems and protocolsHave a Philosophy for Occlusion – does not matter if it is Spear, Dawson, Kois, Pankey, Neuromuscular or whatever! Have A philosophyGo all in – immerse yourself deep with knowledge, we owe it to our patients!
Click below for full episode transcript:
Opening Snippet: Have a philosophy and it doesn't actually matter which philosophy you follow just HAVE a philosophy...
Jaz's Introduction: So welcome to interference cast. This is one of my top podcast episodes where I disrupt in the middle of the flow of having guests. And I just ramble on about important things, or things that I think are important anyway. And I hope you gain value from these. So this episode, or this interference cast is all about protocols and philosophies. Three really cool people I've learned from and they've all had the same message, the same key theme, and I want to share that with you guys. And that is from three different awesome clinicians who have helped me in my career. It's all about having protocols and philosophies. So let's dive in.
Main Podcast: [Jaz] The first person was Professor Nicholas Martin from Sheffield, he was one of my restorative consultants, he was one of the academic leads at the university. And he's the one who really planted the seed in my head. He basically taught me that with every procedure you do, you need to have a protocol. And that's how you make procedures predictable. If you don't have a protocol, then you do things based on your mood, or your nurse's mood, and your results will be inconsistent. And you'll never be able to pinpoint what goes well and what could be improved. Now, that doesn't mean that you can't change your protocols. And you can't try different techniques. But it's important to sort of make things consistent, so that you can pinpoint what is it in your practice that is being successful? And what is it that's causing, let's say, postoperative sensitivity, or pain, or any sort of restoration fractures or wherever it might be. So it's like yourself auditing right? If you keep changing and chopping one day you etched for five seconds, the other day, for 45 seconds, it's no consistency, you will never know what actually works. So it's important to have protocols in place, and have them laminated somewhere, let your nurses know, so that they know exactly, you know, you know, sometimes when you're etching, and then a nurse or leans over with the suction, it's only been seven seconds. Whereas on a different day, the nurse will wait half an hour, 45 seconds until he or she leans over for the etch. And if you're led by your nurse before your sort of wash, that's not dentistry, you need to have a protocol in place, see to have a time is in place so that you and the nurse both know how long you're etching for. That's just an example. So that's a first person who taught me about the importance of protocols.
So fast forward some years later, when I'd qualified and dentinal tubules, website was in his early days, and it had a forum which was very active, it's now evolved. And it's way past that it's way bigger and better than the forum. Tubules is just a movement experience itself. So a dentist, who I really look up to is Rajiv Ruwala. He was posting a fair bit on the forum, and he actually posts a lot on Facebook, he were mainly saying on the dental groups. And again, I always, you know, I look out for his post because,