Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas: Recent Episodes
Tommy Thomas
Dedicated to equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders. This will be accomplished by interviewing people whose business, nonprofit and life experiences might be valuable on an emerging leader. When we use the term leader, we are referring to organizational and Board leadership.
[00:00:30] Tommy Thomas: We're continuing the conversation we began last week with Deneé’ Barracato, the Deputy Director of Athletics for Operations and Capital Projects at Northwestern University. Deneé reflects on her transition from a professional basketball player to a senior leader in higher ed athletic administration. She also shares personal reflections on balancing her professional role with her responsibilities as a spouse and a mother. This is a must listen for anyone navigating the complexities of leadership.
[00:01:06] Tommy Thomas: Let's move away from your basketball career and sooner or later you decide that was a chapter in your life that was closed and you moved into higher education administration. Take me back to your first management job when you first led a group of people. What do you remember about that?
[00:01:27] Deneé Barracato: Wow. Okay. So, I remember having the opportunity to lead a group of Graduate Assistants. And when I first started at Adelphi University, my Athletic Director took a chance on me once I decided to move into administration and move away from professional basketball and I had the opportunity to work with these talented young adults who just wanted to continue their career and their education. And as there were three graduate assistants that I had an opportunity to work with, and then a host of different student workers and staff that will work our games. And that was at the division two level.
And I remember just being so in awe of their work ethic, right? So, I was a Division 1 women's basketball player. There were some perks that came along with that, whether it was gear or whether it was a scholarship, whether it was charter bus traveling or flights or those sorts of things. Pregame meals, but starting out at the division two level, just seeing their love, pure love for the sport.
[00:02:33] Deneé Barracato: The way that they fundraise for things that weren't just given to them. And then seeing them work on top of having to be a student athlete, I was just really put to shame.
I remember, and then even the grad assistants that I had an opportunity to oversee, I had one traveling all the way from Brooklyn, New York to Long Island, and she would do that on a daily basis. She would come in early, she would go to her classes, she would come into the office afterwards, she would work long hours, work our games ,organize and do all the things that I asked of her. And then she would get on the train later at night, go back to her home and then come back the next day and do it all over again.
[00:03:15] Deneé Barracato: And for me, I was just like, oh, my goodness. I thought I had some work ethic. And then I had an opportunity to work with them and to lead them and to guide them. And I think we learned from each other. And I was younger then, I think I was about 24. And I was just like, holy smokes, I just missed out. I thought that I had a pretty good work ethic and no one really had to motivate me.
I was motivated. But then you see this caliber of student and student athlete that really motivated me. Inspired me to just be better for them. Being a better leader, being a better administrator, trying to communicate with them effectively so that way we were efficient with our time, and they felt like they were getting something out of their experience.
So, for me, that experience with them was probably more of an educational opportunity for me than anything else. And we still keep in touch to this day. I really appreciate how they helped me grow into a professional.
[00:04:14] Tommy Thomas: In his book, It's How You Play the Game: The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith, David Chadwick, one of his ball players wrote “the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball, leadership, and society”. When you think about that from a macro perspective, how does that resonate with you?
[00:04:37] Deneé Barracato: Yeah, I spoke about it before. Team is critical to your success especially when you're playing in a team sport environment or when you're working in an office setting with a group of individuals that have a common goal.
Whatever that goal is, working together collaboratively and understanding that goal and doing it intentionally. Understanding everyone's differences, inviting their gifts to the table and just embracing that with intentionality through relationships is so very critical. So, I couldn't agree with Dean Smith more.
It's attributed to the success that he had at Chapel Hill over the years. And so, I would agree with him. The concept of team is so important and sometimes we have to remind ourselves as administrators that they’re watching.
[00:05:24] Deneé Barracato: Individuals are watching that will then translate to what they do in a group setting on their team. And so, we have to be very cognizant of that on a daily basis that we're embodying the things that we teach them and the things that we reiterate and the things that really, hopefully they will take with them beyond just college athletics and beyond their team into society and into their community post, higher education.
I think, certainly his comment was very impactful and important because without people around you, and sometimes we talk about that as a village, without a village around you helping you to be successful. It'll be really difficult. Rome wasn't built in a day. But you need a team to help build it over time.
And so I think, certainly that's something that I think about with a team, anything's possible. You have to do it with intentionality and understanding that everyone comes with all different shapes and sizes, but different gifts as well that can help you be successful.
[00:06:31] Tommy Thomas: If I were to come to one of your team meetings next week, and maybe after a few minutes we convince you to leave the room, I asked them two questions. I asked them, what was the most rewarding thing about working with and for Deneé, what would they say? And if I ask them what was the most challenging thing about being on your team, what would they say?
[00:06:54] Deneé Barracato: I'll start with the latter. The most challenging thing I think that they'll say is that I'm not around enough. That if I was around, if I was able to say hello every single day it would be more impactful, right? My leadership would be more impactful and, oftentimes I challenge myself daily to do that.
I just find it really difficult to do my job at a high level with all the things that I'm responsible for while still finding my way through two campuses. Two different sides, a mile away, and going through each of the buildings. And so that's something that I know over the course of my time here and Northwestern and even some of my other stops along the way that I probably need to improve on.
So that's the one thing I think that they'll say is we don't see her as much as we’d like but when she is around, I try to be encouraging. I try to thank them for their good work and all their efforts. And then I would say the most impactful thing would be, I'm hoping that they would say my energy.
[00:08:01] Deneé Barracato: The support that I give them. I always try to find ways in which we can thank them for their hard work, for their time, their diligence or due diligence and everything that they do, their intentionality. Because currently in the unit that I oversee is operations, right? So, everything from events and facilities and equipment and recreation and murals.
The way I describe it to them is that we're the engine in the car, and unless that engine starts or works, the car will just sit there looking pretty, but it won't move from zero to 50 or 200. And so, I encourage them in that way that the engine works really hard, but without the engine, the whole team likely won't be successful.
So, I think that the thing that I try to remind them is that they're valued and that they're important. And I try to bring energy, I always talk about Let's Go Cats. We're doing this together. Thank you for your time. And I hope that goes a long way. But I certainly know as a leader, I have a lot of things to work on.
[00:09:03] Deneé Barracato: And when I feel like I have it figured out, I might as well just retire. So, I'm not ready. I'm not close to retirement. So, I would say that I still have a lot to learn to get better at and more to give back to our team. But we also talk about teamwork and being great teammates and being communicative as well.
So hopefully those are the things that they might say.
+++++++++++
[00:09:22] Tommy Thomas: I remember from the conversation you had with Ty, y'all talked about the current building project is probably not a strong enough word to say what's going on at Northwestern right now, but take us into that and just the ambitious nature of such an endeavor. Give us a little background of that.
[00:09:40] Deneé Barracato: Yeah, I'll give credit to a lot of my colleagues. A lot of our leaders on campus and our board of trustee members, our president who really stood behind what our head football coach wanted to see in terms of the momentum of the season that we finished last year in Las Vegas, when we played in the Las Vegas Bowl against Utah, and we won. It was a challenging year which started very tumultuously.
And with our transition of Head Coaches and we went into the season after I think the year before we were either three and nine or one 11, I apologize. I can't remember, but it wasn't a successful season the year before. And we had high hopes for that upcoming season, but then we ran into this transition with our head coaches and it was a difficult time for our team.
It was something that was well documented in the national realm. And so, what we wanted to do is we wanted to really galvanize our team and really get them to focus on why they came to Northwestern. Why that season was so important, not because they wanted to prove something to anyone else, but to themselves and what they were there to do and really embracing and coming together as a unit.
And they did do that. They did that very well. Before I talked about being in awe of student athletes and our student athletes here in Northwestern are not behind. They are so very impressive and our coaching staff as well. So, our Head Coach really took that to heart and he really brought them through a very difficult season to a very successful outcome.
We ended the year eight and five and we wanted to continue that momentum into this season finishing eight and five. And it would have been challenging to do that off campus, even though we had started to investigate different venues that we could potentially play in the Chicagoland areas, some on the outskirts, but nothing, as is the same as playing at home and in front of your students, fans, faculty, staff, those family members that want to come and support you.
[00:11:50] Deneé Barracato: And it would have been really difficult if you took that show on the road every single week and to different venues. And for those of you that don't know, we were constructing a brand-new football stadium. And we're in a two-year period of construction. And so, for that reason, we were without a home.
So, we had to figure out okay, whether or not we were going to take the show on the road or whether there was an opportunity for us to play at home. And so initially when the idea came to us from our former head coach and some of our board of trustee members. It was something that we had to look into because we, what we didn't want to do is we want us to support our team, but we also didn't want to impact some of the other Olympic sports that utilize the same footprint.
[00:12:31] Deneé Barracato: And so, we wanted to ensure that was something that we could do. And through some investigation, intentionality, some collaboration and people that were pushing and all the right places, we ended up with this unbelievable lakeside venue that holds around 12,000 people. And we're slated to open this Saturday against Miami of Ohio at 2:30 PM on BTN. And so, we're just excited. It was something that came together in a matter of, wow, 70 plus days. We had a plan and then we pivoted and, now we're really excited that we're able to give our student athletes a home field advantage an opportunity to have momentum leading into this season, coming off of an incredible season last year, giving our students an opportunity to see them on campus and not have to travel far.
And I would say the same thing with our faculty and staff and our coaches and the family members that support our student athletes as well, that want to come and see their sons, participate in the sport they've invested themselves into, it's certainly been an endeavor. We worked collaboratively in production, which is a company that helped put together this temporary facility and then also worked with Nations Group, who helped manage the project for us, as with something like this.
[00:13:49] Deneé Barracato: There's so many different moving pieces, and we had a host of others on campus across campus, centrally and within our department that really took this seriously. And as a result, I think you'll see a beautiful lakeside facility on Saturday and then throughout the next four games after that.
And then we'll culminate at Wrigley field for our last two games. Yeah, it was certainly an undertaking, but the reason is because we really wanted to give our football program an opportunity to be successful, not just last year, but leading into this year and then the following year, and we found a way to do that.
As we've been talking about throughout this whole podcast, we did it with a team that brought so many different talents, so many different areas of expertise and we all worked together collaboratively to do this in a very great way. And so, I'm just proud of being one member of that team that really put it all together.
[00:14:44] Tommy Thomas: At what point in your life did you begin to get comfortable in your leadership skin?
[00:14:52] Deneé Barracato: Oh, I think that's an evolving thing for me. I always challenge myself to continue to be a better leader not just to be a manager, but someone that can invoke some inspiration, I think. I even work at it at home with my own children, inspiring them to be, the best that they can be at school with their extracurricular activities, whether it's an instrument or whether it's in sport or whether it's a sibling or mother to my children and I always think about well, how can I be a better mother? How could I be a better administrator? How could I be a better colleague? How could I be a better mentor? And so, I don't know that there's been one moment where I felt like I've, okay, I've done it. I think that for me it's been an area that I've been very conscious about wanting to be better for those around me.
And one that I really asked the Lord for guidance and help on, right? Every day I say, I pray for wisdom and an opportunity to be better for those around me. And so, I don't know that I've gotten there yet. I aspire to be as good as some other leaders that we've seen, but I'm still a work in progress.
[00:16:00] Deneé Barracato: So, we'll see when I'm ready to retire or what they say about me in the books at some point if I do make it there, but certainly a never evolving aspiration that I have with myself.
[00:16:13] Tommy Thomas: When you came to Northwestern, you obviously had to evaluate the job or the situation they offered you. At this point in your life, knowing yourself as well as you do now, what do you look for in a leadership opportunity? What makes a good fit for you?
[00:16:31] Deneé Barracato: At this point in my life unfortunately, I cannot only think about myself. I often think about my children, what's a great fit for them right now.
My children are 14, soon to be 11 and 9. And, they're growing, and they have their own friends now. They have their own comfort levels. So, when making a decision, I always keep them in mind, certainly my husband, we never make decisions unaligned. And we also, we always try to come together and talk about what's in the best interest of our family unit.
And so there might be opportunities where I think might be a good fit for me based on my background or where I've been successful and what positions might be of comfort to me. But I always try to be intentional about making those decisions. If I did have an opportunity with my family in mind first and foremost, and then, I try not to make any decisions without praying about it and without asking for guidance and wisdom and direction and where the Lord will have me even if I think it's a perfect fit or my husband or my family thinks it's a perfect fit. It might not be.
[00:17:40] Deneé Barracato: Over the last five years, I've loved my time at Northwestern and certainly we've gone through many challenges just like everyone else has across the country. And I've always found peace here to a certain extent where; okay, this is where I'm supposed to be for one reason or another.
And, as sometimes what you believe is good for you may not be or what you think may not be good for you is where the Lord wants you. I always make any decision based on prayer first and guidance from the Lord, but also with my family in mind.
[00:18:16] Tommy Thomas: Let's talk about authenticity for a minute. Oscar Wilde said, be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. St. Catherine of Siena put it, be who God meant for you to be and you'll set the world on fire. What lessons have you learned about authenticity over the years?
[00:18:37] Deneé Barracato: It's important to be yourself while evolving and hopefully growing. In your own skin, being open to having a growth mindset, one that you're not just stubborn about just because of how you were raised or, what was instilled in you, I think sometimes as people that do have faith, we're short sighted and the fact that maybe not, and not everyone thinks the same way.
And hopefully carrying yourself in a way where people see you as an advocate and as a light instead of someone that they're afraid to come to or someone that you might judge them or someone that may not understand is really important to me. And so just being authentically me, who I am, I'm a Hispanic woman from the city of New York then moved to the suburbs of New York that loves sports, loves basketball, but also loves being a mom.
[00:19:38] Deneé Barracato: I think it's really important, but also being open to others that might not have walked that same journey or even those that might not know the Lord or might not have embraced that side of their spirituality and really helping them understand that my job here on earth is one to be a great person to them, one that's to love them and one that will be there to support them through their life and through their journey.
And that's so very important to me because I think oftentimes, we may not be seen as advocates in that realm. And so, it's important to be an advocate for all the things that I described. Being a woman of color, being a woman of faith, all those different types of things, but also being an advocate to others that might not have walked that same path and maybe don't understand.
So, my job is always to try and walk in the light, be a reflection of the Lord and let people know that I'm authentically me. I'm going to have my New York accent. I'm going to represent the Latino community and represent the Lord when I have the opportunity. But also embrace people that are different and let them know that I love them despite their differences, and I want them to love me the same way.
[00:20:52] Deneé Barracato: And so that's my goal. And then that's what I really hold myself to that standard.
++++++++++++
[00:20:59] Tommy Thomas: You've had to hire a lot of people in your life and probably you've had to fire one or two, maybe not too many, but when you go into the hiring mode, what are you looking for at the cabinet level? At your level, what are you looking for in a person?
[00:21:15] Deneé Barracato: I'm looking for someone who has the ability to work within a team setting, someone that has great work ethic, someone that has potential, someone that's eager.
A lot of times people talk about, oh this person doesn't have experience. This person doesn't have this. This person doesn't have all these credentials on their resume. And depending on the job, sometimes you do need that. But in other cases, I think it's important to give people an opportunity.
I think those are the things that you as a leader or as an administrator can teach them on the job, but without great work ethic, without a great vigor for the job, for life, someone that's positive, someone that's willing to learn, someone that's excited about the job. Those things are really hard to invoke in someone.
[00:22:02] Deneé Barracato: You really have to have that ambition, that work ethic. Those are some things that you can't teach. You can't teach drive. You can't teach optimism. You can't teach an interest to learn. And so those things for me are really important. When I interviewed someone, just someone that is truly interested in the job, truly interested in the organization that they're applying for, someone that's excited about the opportunity, someone that's grateful for the opportunity and someone that's willing to work really hard within the role that they're applying for.
And that's one of the first things that I look for because I can't teach that. Excuse me. So just coming into a role once they have that, they've got me hooked. And now I can focus on your credentials, your educational background, your experiences, and all the things that I think that they would bring to the position that would make them successful.
But unless they have those initial things, for me, it tends to be a little bit more difficult to get them beyond that point.
[00:23:11] Tommy Thomas: So you mentioned earlier in our conversation, you use the phrase, take a chance and the like when you decided to move from the ranks of the professional athletics and administration somebody took a chance on you.
And I certainly remember when I was much younger people took a chance on me. Have you had a situation where you took a chance on somebody and it didn't work out? And if so, how did y'all reconcile that?
[00:23:42] Deneé Barracato: I would say, yes, that has happened. I think the way that I approached it was with patience, giving them an opportunity to learn from the things that I would bring to their attention. An opportunity to reflect on some of the things that I may have wanted them to improve on. And not just looking at one isolated incident, but also helping them through that process and at a certain point if they're not willing to make those corrections or improve the things that we've set out for them.
And that could even be a performance plan or anything that I would want them to do in order to be successful would be really difficult for us to move forward because like I mentioned before, unless you're curious, unless you're motivated, unless you're willing to learn and grow in whatever position you're in, it's really going to be hard for you to advance and specifically with individuals that you take the time to help grow and to help motivate to the next phase of their life or their career.
[00:25:06] Deneé Barracato: If they're unwilling to make those adjustments, then, at that point, it becomes very difficult. So for me, I tend to just give a little bit more, because I often believe that everyone deserves, not just one chance, but, several opportunities to grow from their experiences and make some self-corrections.
But at some point, there have been instances where, unfortunately I haven't been able to maintain them within the environment that I am in because at that point, it becomes an opportunity for that to then rub off on some of the other staff members and culture is really important.
And without bringing on a detriment to the team, sometimes you just then need to step away. And I would say I even saw that in my own career now, my own life as a senior in college, when I had to take a step away from the team, because at that point I didn't believe that I was productive for them.
I didn't believe that I was going to be the best version of myself in order for the team to be successful. So, I took a step back and sometimes that happens in life and whether it's professionally or personally.
[00:26:21] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, let's bring this thing to a close. Maybe get a little introspective. How have you changed in the last five years?
[00:26:30] Deneé Barracato: How have I changed? I've changed in the way that I've looked at life. I think COVID taught us a really big lesson in that, and that you can do more with different resources, with different ways of interacting with people, like we talked about at the beginning of this call. I don't know if this platform was available to us, that you and I, Tommy would even be speaking.
And so, we learned a lot about how technology can impact relationships and can flourish them in a very different way than we even imagined. And so as a professional over the last five years, just being more innovative in the way that I've communicated. And the way that I've maintained relationships certainly as a mother, just be more in tune to my children as they grow the differences and, in their life, and their interests and being present, having to sit down and listen to my daughter be interested in things that I may not be interested in.
[00:27:38] Deneé Barracato: And at that point in life, I have to say it's not about you, it's about her, it's about her life, it's about her, what's interesting to her and just being there as a listener and as someone that can guide her and give her advice or answer any questions that she might have. So, I would say as a mother growing into someone that can help her children navigate through life not through my lens, but through theirs.
And I would also say, through this ever-changing landscape at Northwestern, we're hopefully going to be appointing a new Vice President - Director of Athletics soon here. And through some permanent positions and interim, it's going to be my seventh leader in a five-year period. And so, learning how to adjust and be flexible to new leadership, and then demonstrating that flexibility to the team and the staff, and keeping them abreast and communicating with them on new expectations or different expectations and how we can pivot and navigate has certainly helped me professionally.
[00:28:35] Deneé Barracato: It's been challenging because every leader maybe has a different style, maybe has different expectations, but growing into that and having patience and knowing that my team is relying on me for that continuity in order for them to be successful.
So, I would say patience, thoughtfulness, and in terms of how I interact with not only my daughter and my children, but also those around me. And then, utilizing technology to maintain relationships and build upon them and really grow in that space that five years ago wasn't very familiar to any of us, but also critical in this space that we're all navigating today.
[00:29:30] Tommy Thomas: Final question. If you could tell a younger version of yourself something. What would you tell her?
[00:29:40] Deneé Barracato: I would tell her continue to believe in yourself, continue to trust in the Lord, continue to be curious, continue to embrace life and be proud of your accomplishments, but know that you've done them and accomplished those things with so many people behind you and then, continue to embrace those individuals that have come into your life that have made you better.
Rely on them and appreciate them and love them the way the Lord loves you. And, as long as you have those things at the forefront of your mind, hopefully you will inherit what the Lord says that you will inherit at the end of the day. But knowing that you've done it with peace and you can go to sleep at night, knowing that you've tried your best and you've given your best at life and given back to those that are around you and hopefully that's enough and people appreciate that.
[00:30:48] Deneé Barracato: But my goal in life is always to be a reflection of the Lord and try to do that to the best of my advantage. And if I can't, if I'm not doing it the right way, Lord, please convict me, please correct me. And I would say that to my younger self is, hey, you're not going to do this alone.
Believe in yourself but know that you have a responsibility to be a reflection of the Lord. And that's a big thing to ask, but it's something that you can do. So that's what I think. That's what I would say.
[00:31:19] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Deneé Barracato Bio Barracato named to NCAA Women’s Basketball Committee
Women of Live 2023 – Deneé Barracato
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Deneé on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:30] Deneé Barracato: Kelly Watts was a former assistant coach at several different institutions before she ended up at Hofstra. And she was a woman of color that was just so vibrant.
She loved sports. She loved people. She loved the Lord. And every time I was around her, I just felt this spirit of joy. And she was just always so fun to be around, and she put things in perspective for me at a very impressionable age in my life as a young adult, where she always reminded me to keep the Lord first.
Trials and tribulations are going to come, and adversity is going to come, but you need to stay focused and centered, and she really poured her optimism into me and I appreciated that. And then she was actually great at basketball. So, she taught me as a guard the skills that I needed to be successful on the next level.
++++++++++++
[00:01:19] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Deneé Barracato. She's the Deputy Director of Athletics for Operations and Capital Projects at Northwestern University. Her career path to Northwestern has taken her to leadership roles at York College, Queens College, and Adelphi University.
She did a stint in Indianapolis with NCAA as the Associate Director of Division I Women's Basketball, and she even did a stint at Madison Square Garden's Company as Director of Strategy, where she worked with the Knicks, the Rangers, and the New York Liberty teams to further advance the marketing and business objective of the Madison Square Garden business partners.
[00:02:00] Tommy Thomas: She took her undergraduate degree from Hofstra University, where she was a four-year basketball letter winner. As a student athlete at Hofstra, she led the nation in steals for women's Division I basketball and earned America East All Conference honors. Following graduation, she played professionally in the Women's Professional League in Puerto Rico for the Saints of St. Juan, as well as with the National Women's Basketball League as a member of the Atlanta Justice. In addition to her undergraduate degree from Hofstra, she earned a master's degree in exercise science and sports management from Adelphi.
She's married to Michael, and they have three children, Grace, MJ, and Mia.
[00:02:41] Tommy Thomas: Deneé, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:45] Deneé Barracato: Thank you for having me, Tommy. I'm humbled. It's a pleasure to be here with you all just to talk about sports and my journey thus far.
[00:02:54] Tommy Thomas: Thank you. My guests sometimes want to know where I find all these people.
Ty Brown has a podcast on leadership, and I listened to it. And I heard Deneé about maybe two months ago, three months ago. And I thought this is somebody I would love to have as a guest. You're so gracious to carve out some time for us in the midst of what I know is a busy prelude to your intercollegiate athletics this year.
[00:03:19] Tommy Thomas: But before we dive too deep into sports or your current role, take me back to your childhood and tell me what was it like growing up?
[00:03:29] Deneé Barracato: Oh, wow. Growing up, I had a very active childhood. I was a tomboy at heart. I loved activity. I loved sports. I wouldn't say competitively, but just out in the park, a city kid originally from the Bronx, and my parents are from the city as well.
First generation here in the United States, although Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States, but they were born there and moved here at a young age, and then raised us in New York city. And later we moved out to Hempstead, Long Island where I went undergrad near Hofstra. I was a very active kid, loved life, and loved sports.
And when I was in middle school, I was introduced to women's basketball or just basketball in general, from an organized standpoint. And I remember I just fell in love with it. I fell in love with the idea of playing something that was pretty cool at the time. And then I realized that I was actually decent at it.
[00:04:32] Deneé Barracato: And it was interesting because I have two sisters, two older sisters. I'm the youngest of three. And my father ended up coaching the middle school team, and we were all on it. And I remember my older sister, Damaris, she was actually pretty good. She played at a junior college.
And then my older sister, she just wanted nothing to do with it. She didn't like the physical interaction. And as I mentioned, I embraced it. My father encouraged me to continue to play, and the rest is history. I then transitioned to a public school and started getting engaged in summer basketball, AAU later in my high school career and ended up at Hofstra university.
[00:05:17] Deneé Barracato: So, I would say my family, certainly my parents both being educators, but both being Hispanics growing up in the city, tried to instill in us work ethic, education, and just avenues to further my educational career. And basketball was one of those endeavors that helped me do that.
And so now in my career, I can say that I will be forever indebted to basketball, but also this industry for giving me so much. And so that's why I do what I do to give back to potential student athletes and young adults that one day want to take advantage of that opportunity to do something very similar to myself.
Yeah, so that's my childhood in a nutshell but one that I'm very proud of.
[00:06:01] Tommy Thomas: So, when you were in high school, what kind of career aspirations did a young 15-year-old have?
[00:06:08] Deneé Barracato: I have to be honest with you. I was so enamored with the sport of basketball. I was so tunnel visioned. I was determined to play Division I Women's Basketball.
I didn't even know what that meant at the time. I just wanted to play at the highest level, wherever it was. And I worked tirelessly to ensure that happened, whether that was working out two days on my own as a 15, 16-year-old doing whatever I had to do, because I really came on to the AAU summer league basketball scene pretty late.
[00:06:39] Deneé Barracato: My parents really didn't know the first thing about college scholarships and what sports can actually bring to an aspiring, young individual like me wanting to play on the next level. I don't know that they fully understood that there could be possibilities to getting a full scholarship that would allow me to be educated at no cost.
And so once my parents learned that, then we fast forward through everything. So, my main focus was maintaining my grades so that way I can then play Division I Women’s Basketball. And then from there, obviously, the sky's the limit with potentially playing overseas.
[00:07:16] Deneé Barracato: At the time when I first started, I think it was my freshman year. I don't know that the WNBA was even a thing. I don't know that it became a thing until my senior year. Back when I was 15, 16, that was my focus and I'm a bit taken back because if that is my daughter's focus at 15, 16, then I think we're going to have a different conversation.
But certainly, it was one that I was really enamored with. And I had to be honest with you, even my relationship with the Lord probably wasn't first and foremost, the way it probably should have been back then. And it's later in life that I realized that there's more to life than just basketball, sports, and my own personal ambitions.
And we could talk about that a little bit more, but that was what was going through my mind back then.
++++++++++++++++
[00:08:00] Tommy Thomas: What is something that people are usually surprised to learn about you?
[00:08:06] Deneé Barracato: Oh, that I actually have three children. Every time I share with them that I'm married with three children and I'm closer to 50 than I am to 40 they really get surprised.
And I guess that's a compliment in a lot of ways, but one that hopefully I balance really well. At work, I work really hard and I'm hoping that my children will see that work ethic in me, but at the same time sometimes that comes back to impact the amount of time that I do spend at home.
[00:08:33] Deneé Barracato: Because they see me so often, whether it's at work or at conferences which is where you heard Ty Brown's podcast, because I was at the NACDA conference and convention. Sometimes they don't realize that I actually have a family at home that's waiting for me, that depends on me.
Obviously along with my husband, but yeah, I think that's something that they're surprised about. And even then, I even played professionally at the next level beyond just Hofstra University. And that was a wonderful experience too. And I think the last thing that might surprise them that I probably don't talk about as often as I should is my father is a pastor.
And so, I was raised in the Word and although I didn't always walk in faith, it was instilled in me and that verse that talks about raising your children in the ways of the Lord and they shall not depart and those teachings. I think my life is evidence of that. And I'm hoping that I can certainly do the same with my children.
[00:09:25] Tommy Thomas: Part of this sub theme I've got going here is the coaches in my life. And I've interviewed six or seven people like you who played intercollegiate sports. And we talked about things they learn from sports and things they learn from the coaches in their lives.
So, thinking back, which coach do you think got the most out of you?
[00:09:46] Deneé Barracato: Yeah, I've often talked about her. Her name is Kelly Watts, and she was a former assistant coach at several different institutions, Temple, I think she was at Rutgers for a little bit before she ended up at Hofstra. And she was just a woman of color that was just so vibrant.
She loves sports. She loved people. She loved the Lord. And every time I was around her, I just felt this spirit of joy. And she was just always so fun to be around, and she put things in perspective for me at a very impressionable age in my life as a young adult, where she always reminded me to keep the Lord first.
Trials and tribulations are going to come, and adversity is going to come, but you need to stay focused and centered, and she really poured her optimism into me, and I appreciated that. And so, she was one. And then she was actually great at basketball. So, she taught me as a guard the skills that I needed to be successful on the next level.
[00:10:44] Deneé Barracato: And we still stay in touch to this day. I've been around her parents, or her mom and her sister. And she's always someone that I admire and that I often seek advice from, and, again, she was probably the most impactful person that was from a women's basketball perspective, but also Jay Wright, who was the men's basketball coach. She's a hall of fame coach, many people remember him from his days at Villanova and now CBS, but he was actually the head men's basketball coach at Hofstra university, my entire four-year career there. And we've just stayed in touch since then. He's been a mentor as well.
[00:11:21] Deneé Barracato: Someone that I can pick up the phone and call. And we talk about different things going on in the industry right now. And I often pick his brain, but also brag about him and, back when I was at Hofstra on my off days, when the men's basketball team was traveling and we were home, I would help babysit his children.
And I knew Patty, his wife, and now his children are grown. They're adults and so very successful, but he's someone else that I admired just the way he carried himself, how he invoked a championship mindset with his players and how he carried himself was just top notch and bar.
[00:11:56] Tommy Thomas: Tell me about the best athletic team you were ever on and what made it the best athletic team.
[00:12:05] Deneé Barracato: That's a good question. I would say my experience with the National Women's Basketball League. I was drafted in the fifth round and that was a league that started when the ABL folded. And so, the WMU was there. The ABL had just folded. That would be the CBA to the NBA. And they started this league because there were certain WNBA players that maybe didn’t want to go back overseas during their off season, but still wanted to maintain their conditioning and just play competitively.
So, they started this league, and I got drafted in the fifth round to the Atlanta Justice team. And I moved over there to play for a season and I just met incredible athletes, incredible humans: friends that I have to this day, friends that helped me through my wedding and playing at that top level, playing with some of the best players in the country.
And Rebecca Lobo, the Miller twins. And I think maybe Tina Thompson also played in that league. There were just so many that I admired as a basketball player leading up. And obviously now they’re household names, when we talk about women's basketball. I really enjoyed my time playing at that level and playing here in the States, in Atlanta.
And so, I would say that would be my most impactful team.
[00:13:25] Tommy Thomas: So how did basketball change for you between high school, college and the pros? What were the transitions?
[00:13:37] Deneé Barracato: I think for me, it was maturity. When I was younger, I was still tunnel visioned, very selfish and my thought process, having this ambition to play and do well for me.
That I forgot the team component. I forgot the humanity component. I forgot, that, hey, I know as a woman of color, I have to fight to really get the positioning that I need, really prove myself beyond many other individuals that were in front of me. Through maturity and through grace and patience, learning how to be a great teammate was something that I saw grow in me, and I can say that now as an adult, as a mother raising my children from high school to then college and then collegiate or professional sports just understanding that being a great teammate should be your first focus.
[00:14:31] Deneé Barracato: Because if you can support your teammate, if you can have a like mindset, if you can be supportive of your coaches if you can understand what it is to go through adversity with your team, but go through positive moments with your team, like winning and doing it together as a collective unit, you're going to go that much further than if you're doing it on your own. And, I think over the years, I learned that it is so critical in any environment, not only playing on a sports team, but also in the office environment or in society or in your home, right? Instilling those things into your family members and your teachers, and even as a spouse.
Knowing that we have to be one unit, and we have to be a team. And sometimes that takes compromise and all those things. And so, over the years, I think that I learned that through tough experiences and teachable moments that helped me be a better person, teammate, and partner to all those that are in my life.
[00:15:31] Tommy Thomas: You referenced the lady that was such a strong influence in your college career, at what point did you realize that she might be teaching you something other than basketball?
[00:15:42] Deneé Barracato: Oh, that's a good question. She had such an infectious personality that it is a good question because you can see the light and the energy in her, but it wasn't until one day we were talking about her time in Long Island.
At some point she lived in Long Island and we were just talking and I think I may have shared with her that I had family out in some part of Suffolk County in Long Island and she mentioned to me that the church she was going to was Upper Room and she really loved that part of Long Island and that kind of led me into a different conversation with her about that part of her life.
[00:16:19] Deneé Barracato: And then seeing how she was able to marry the two. Her love for basketball and her love for the Lord. And there was nothing to be ashamed about, but there was a balance that you can have with both and do it so very well. And to see her do it at such a high level really intrigued me and really brought me back to things that I was taught and instilled as a young little girl with my parents.
I think it happened organically through just conversation as any coach and player should have that dialogue, not just transactional on the basketball court, but really developing that relationship off the court. And I think through that interaction, we just started talking about life and it just made it all the more special to me in terms of that relationship.
[00:17:08] Tommy Thomas: No matter how hard and dedicated you are to something; failure is always an option. So, what did you learn from team sports about failure that you brought into your career?
[00:17:20] Deneé Barracato: Oh, wow. I learned to again, be patient and know that growth is critical in life.
Some of the student athletes that I speak to now are just curious or, if I have a moment to spend with them, they learn that as a senior, I actually ended up waiting for four games because I was going through, now we talk about mental health and that being such a critical component to student athletes.
[00:17:48] Deneé Barracato: And back then we didn't know what that was. We were thinking maybe that was depression or whatever the case may be. But my senior year, coming off of a very successful junior year, I ended up getting injured in my junior year and ended up having surgery that delayed my recovery leading into my senior year, which was for me supposed to be the pinnacle because that's when the WNBA was coming out and, to be quite honest with you, was I good enough to be in the WNBA?
I don't know, it's still a college girl's dream to play on the next level. And some nuances happened within that year because of my surgery, and I didn't end up starting and that kind of impacted my psyche going into that season. And I just, for whatever reason, just didn't recover.
[00:18:32] Deneé Barracato: And I couldn't get over the fact that I wasn't starting, and I wasn't going to be, in my mind, as impactful. And I couldn't just sit back and say, you know what, some of my other teammates were sitting behind me for three years when I was starting. And now it's my opportunity to sit behind them and cheer them on and encourage them and give them an opportunity to play.
And so throughout that time just learning how to overcome adversity, and I mentioned before, just maturing through that process, being a great teammate, thinking of others before thinking of myself and understanding that you can still be successful. Perhaps not in the way that you envisioned, but you can still find a way back while still being supportive of teammates, while still being supportive of those around you, and improving yourself and getting back to what you believe you can actually accomplish.
[00:19:28] Deneé Barracato: And so, for me, that maturity in that moment of time led me to then come back to the team, apologize and really find my way back to a team and a sport that had given me so much. And was I really going to give all that up because of my own selfish thoughts? And maybe there was some validity at that time in my life, but I think now I would have approached it very differently and taken the time to take a step back and be reflective and be a great teammate and really find ways to fill that void with support, with encouragement, with cheering, and all the things that we teach our young adults now to do.
And so I use that story to share with some of our student athletes when they're in a slump or when their things aren't going their way, just to share with them that there is light at the end of the tunnel, but there's also a component of patience and of taking a step back and looking at the situation and seeing what part of that situation is in your control and how could make the best of a tough situation.
++++++++++++=
[00:20:38] Tommy Thomas: So, what did you learn about trust and communication from team sports?
[00:20:45] Deneé Barracato: Trust and communication in team sports is so critical. We talk about this kind of team environment, team impact, and nothing that happens with a group of people is successful unless you have great communication, unless you have a great relationship, unless there's authenticity, intentionality, and all that you put into a relationship.
Just understanding the different dynamics of individuals that make up a team or a group is really important. Understanding that different people bring different attributes, bring different skills, bring different gifts that would help propel a team to success. And just knowing that it all starts with intentionality, communication, and embracing people's differences.
[00:21:29] Deneé Barracato: And so those things are really critical to the team environment that I've again grown to understand over my period of time as a young adult, but even into the professional realm as an administrator is learning that people have so many different attributes. People have so many different leadership qualities, but it's embracing all those and then in that group setting, just encouraging people to talk about those different things through communication.
And putting those things into action for success as a group of individuals may be different. So that way there's a common goal and then, that can hopefully blossom into something beautiful. And in our line of business, that is championships. Just embracing the group setting, knowing that people have different gifts and talents that they can bring to a group.
And then, really emphasizing the communication and the embracing of those different skills for success.
[00:22:28] Tommy Thomas: Things get tough in someone's career. You get hurt. You don't always win. What motivated you to keep pushing yourself even when things weren't as good as you might have wanted them to be?
[00:22:40] Deneé Barracato: I never want to be a quitter, right? Though sometimes things didn't go your way, I was always taught to believe the Lord calls us to be our best selves. And he equips you with the things that you would need to overcome adversity.
And I know I didn't always understand that. But I just have this innate thing in me where I always just want to work really hard. I always want to represent my family to the highest extent. I always saw my mother and father working really hard and they provided me with an example of work ethic and being good and great, despite their circumstances.
And I always wanted to ensure that I was doing the same thing and that I was making them proud. I was really pushing myself to be the best version of myself, despite my circumstances. Now, did I always follow through on that? No, I think I'm human and I've grown through that.
[00:23:37] Deneé Barracato: But I always wanted to ensure that I was making my family proud that I was really taking advantage of all the things that God gave me and provided me and blessed me with. And so, I never wanted to squander that, although there were many times as they mentioned, even my senior year, but I came back and I had this realization that no Deneé, you cannot quit.
You have to move forward and overcome the adversity and really tune out the noise. And I would certainly say, my parents, all the things that they instilled in me as a young girl, and then just my personal endeavor to be my best self and the best version of myself was really important to me.
[00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: So as a person of faith, how do you deal with competition in athletics?
[00:24:26] Deneé Barracato: One, I don't think there's anything wrong with competition. You just can't take it to the next level, right? You have to be gracious. And I have to say I wasn't always gracious on the basketball court. I was a tenacious competitor and sometimes I would have to curtail my competitiveness so that way, people could see the light through me.
And, as I mentioned before, I grew into that. And even now I play a mean game of monopoly. I am competitive with my kiddos and my kiddos are competitive with me. But it's all in good fun. I think just coming away with it, knowing that you can be competitive, you can have aspirations to win and there's nothing wrong with that.
[00:25:11] Deneé Barracato: As the Lord calls us to be great and he expects that from us. And so just embracing that while also loving your neighbor, while also being gracious, while also having a good attitude and being a good sportsman and really saving some of the things that may not be appropriate in that moment.
Allowing the Lord to watch that under the blood, Tommy, we just allow the Lord to take the wheel and go. But certainly, throughout my time in undergrad and just through my life just asking the Lord to guide me and direct me and give me grace when I'm not a reflection of Him, but also reminding myself that it's really important that when people see me, whether it's in a competitive environment or a non-competitive environment, that they see the Lord through me.
[00:25:59] Sometimes I fall short of that, but I always ask the Lord for guidance and for favor. And he gives that to me often. And hopefully throughout my life and my career, people have seen that through me. And if they haven't, that means I have more work to do.
+++++++++++
[00:26:14] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed Dr. Linda Livingstone, the President at Baylor, and she had played ball at Oklahoma State, and she said that the game of women's basketball has just changed so much since she was a student athlete.
[00:26:32] Tommy Thomas: How have you seen it change at the Division I level?
[00:26:36] Deneé Barracato: I would agree with her, and I have met her. She's phenomenal. We visited there a couple of years ago not once but twice and she was such a gracious host. I would say, yes, the game of women's basketball has grown to success.
We saw that this past year with the women's final four and the viewership and broadcast ratings and all the personalities are certainly Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese and all those that continue to play and will be excited about women's basketball on the collegiate level again, as we're excited about the WNBA happening right now.
And I think that the skill level has certainly enhanced since I was playing. The things that these women are doing are incredible, logo threes and the passes and the work ethic and the fitness and the dedication that they put into it is just at a different level. And I think that's attributed to just administrators and the industry putting more into and supporting women’s sports and women’s athletics.
[00:27:31] Deneé Barracato: And showing people that know that they're great too. And they deserve to have a platform so people can see how wonderful and how great they are. Certainly, a lot of the banter that you see, I think, I believe is synonymous with just sports in general.
But it's how you carry yourself and, how you correct, having those teachable moments on the court, I think we've all had those moments where you're just like, man, I could have probably handled that better. And I think sometimes you may see that on the basketball court.
[00:28:08] Deneé Barracato: But I would say that the level of talent has enhanced because the focus and the dedication, and the resources have really been poured into the game of women's basketball in a very unique way. And so we've seen that be evident and what has happened over the last five years. And I've seen it more intimately because I serve on the Division I National Women’s Basketball Committee, and we started back in San Antonio during kind of COVID days.
And now to see it progress the way it has over the last four years. Now I'm going into my fifth and final year on the committee and just seeing the explosion on TV, the interest from so many different viewers. And we're talking about the demographics of viewers are just from young children to older men and women that are just so interested in what's happening with women's basketball. It has just been incredible to see.
++++++++++
[00:29:00] Tommy Thomas: Next week we'll continue this conversation with Deneé Barracato. She shares her journey from professional basketball to higher education administration. She reflects on the importance of team dynamics and the need for authenticity and leadership.
Deneé also discusses how she balances her leadership role with family life, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and patience and managing multiple responsibilities. Her insights offer valuable lessons on resilience, teamwork, and leading through change, making this episode a must listen for anyone in or aspiring to leadership roles.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Deneé Barracato Bio Barracato named to NCAA Women’s Basketball Committee
Women of Live 2023 – Deneé Barracato
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Deneé on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Dianne Ogle: I love creativity. It's one of my favorite things. So that's why I like questions, because even if I think I know the answer, if I ask the question, it's just beautiful to hear what inspires somebody or what was bubbling in them or how they see it, quite frankly. It isn't the way I always see things or think it might play out. So, you give people a door for their own strengths, their own creativity, to participate and join in. And most of the time it's so much better than when we could do it alone.
[00:00:32] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the discussion we began last week with Dianne Ogle. In this episode, Dianne shares her extensive leadership journey focusing on the importance of authenticity, community and resilience. She discusses the danger of pride and leadership and emphasizes the need for leaders to rely on their teams and build strong, supportive networks. Dianne also reflects on the power of prayer and how it has shaped her leadership approach, particularly in empowering women leaders. Her insights offer valuable lessons for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of leadership with integrity and faith. This episode is a rich resource for leaders at any stage of their career. Let's pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:25] Tommy Thomas: I'm sure you've observed this in both men and women, but give me your thoughts on the dangerous traits that can derail a leader's career.
[00:01:35] Dianne Ogle: Pride, absolute pride. And thinking that you can do it alone. And you don't need anybody else, because what got you here won't get you there, as one of the books says that I use a lot. Because we need each other. We were built for community, and we need each other. And as soon as we think that we have arrived in that corner office, we don't grow.
We don't desire. We don't let people in to speak truth to us and have iron sharpens. Iron is when we start digressing, and regressing, we've all seen it. We've all known people. They think they're all there. Even Christians. We're flesh, we're sinful, and we start moving backwards. So that's probably the greatest.
[00:02:25] Tommy Thomas: I know, all this is broached in a blanket of confidentiality, and I won't ask you to go there, but does it take the women a while to get used to sharing everything and trusting that their cohorts, that's not what you call it, but their peer, not anymore.
[00:02:43] Dianne Ogle: I think originally, initially the first group that was called into it, but they were in need of a group like this that I think they were willing. And when they saw that I was doing a confidentiality statement that they all signed and that it was going to be a safe place. Then they started testing it.
Now our foundation is so strong that women will either understand what we've got and be ready to jump in. As soon as they come and join I take them through an onboarding program, and I also have them start meeting with the women one on one, but they immediately come to a meeting after they've joined, and they start seeing how honest, authentic, just real. And the prayer requests that we share, we've really grown in the power of prayer together. And that is authentic because they're sharing every aspect of their lives, not just their work.
[00:03:42] Tommy Thomas: So how do they work together from the four pillars, you're bringing people from the nonprofit sector. You've got executive women from Fortune 500 companies.
[00:03:53] Dianne Ogle: Now Tommy, the cool thing is we call it repurpose. We don't call it retirement. And some of them, like we had one who was the chief diversity officer at Coca Cola. And she'd been with Coke for 20 years and in her career and near the end of her career, she started being tapped for a paid board of director role.
So, she's now repurposed and now she's a board director and still highly engaged with us in linking arms. We have another one who repurposed and now she's helping one of our other members who is the president of the National Day of Prayer, helping her with grant writing and supporting ministry of the National Day of Prayer.
[00:04:34] Dianne Ogle: It is beautiful.
[00:04:36] Dianne Ogle: We believe we don't compete. We complete. And so there are times where some will work together or we will have an opportunity to like this next National Day of Prayer in May. Kathy Brent sells the President, and she's opened the invitation for all of us to come to the Capitol and to all the festivities to help pray over the nation and all the pillars that involve.
[00:05:03] So yes, we are highly diverse, Tommy, both in skin color and political views and career pathing and titles and positions. The beauty is in the foundation we love Jesus. And yes, we've worked through the weathers.
[00:05:21] Dianne Ogle: I would say our women are even diverse in age. We've got some in their late thirties to the mid to late sixties. And all my nonprofit or ministry women, that's what shocked me because initially when I saw that pillar of nonprofit, I'm thinking, oh, it'd be like an exec with the Red Cross.
And I just assumed it would be those kinds of women coming towards us. And it has been. There have been high level executive women in ministry work. So that's been beautiful. Andrea, who you had on your show before, she was my first one in that category. And I went to her after four months with us.
[00:06:01] Dianne Ogle: And I said, I consider her Sage. She is the most amazing woman. I said, Andrea, are we meeting your needs? That was just important for me. And she goes, she's so thoughtful in the way she answers. She goes I come from a big family. I have a big donor base. I've been well supported at Cru since I became a Christian in college.
And she goes, but this is so beautiful for me to have a safe place with true peers in other sectors and see the commonality or the similar pain or listen to maybe a different perspective outside of ministry that I can glean from, or I could speak into. And I'm like, okay, Lord, here we go. That's it.
[00:06:46] Tommy Thomas: That was going to be a question, and, yeah, I would probably have assumed that, but you say that, regardless of what sector you're in, there probably arises a pattern of issues that you're going to face regardless if you're a private sector or government service or public service, and so y'all are able to work with the whole person.
[00:07:10] Dianne Ogle: Absolutely. In and out of season. We've lost a member to death, which was really hard on the group, and it was very sudden. We have walked through lots of personal pain together. And there are groups out there for just professionals, but we work on emotional, spiritual, financial, relational issues. Some of our women are single, some are divorced, some are married, some have children, some do not.
And so, you can imagine we all step into this place, but to see the love and the respect and the camaraderie, it always brings tears to my eyes. Just to go, Lord, these are your girls. You've risen us up for such a time as this and we are better together and we need to encourage one another as long as it's called today like scripture says, because it's tough out there. And we need each other.
[00:08:10] Dianne Ogle: I tell my coaching clients. Part of my core purpose is to be the Hur, like in Exodus 17. I’m the Hur of Moses and we need people to come by our side to speak into, to give us rest, to help raise our hands. Because these battles that we're in spiritually, professionally, personally, they're weary. It's tough. So, we all need each other.
++++++++++++++++
[00:08:39] Tommy Thomas: If you're writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the CEO can bear, what are some of the topics you would address?
[00:08:51] Dianne Ogle: This loneliness is a big one that I hear consistently. Whether I'm talking to a brand new high level woman or talking to one of our Arete’ women, even though they're in the group, they will remember how lonely it can be and misunderstood because our churches a lot of times don't understand us or get our giftedness.
A lot of times the other peers, like if they're in childbearing age and they're going to the school, a lot of those mothers don't get them. So, it's hard for them to have community. And then when you're at that senior level, as a CEO, as a board director, just the level of confidentiality and all that you have to take in and feel responsible for is unbelievable pressure.
[00:09:41] Dianne Ogle: And so, where do they have their safe place, their place, just to be them authentically, have a place, a table, they could just lay an issue out like an advisor we call, like our own personal advisory council. Here's my issue, help me with this. Or let me just speak it through so I can hear my own voice talking about it in a safe place where it's not gonna go to the media, it's not gonna go to my board directors.
It's just something I need to wrestle through to make sure that I've got the wisdom, discernment, knowledge, and understanding for this role. Each and every day I've been called to it.
[00:10:24] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned early on, you came out of an athletic family and have done the statistics and all that. So, you'll appreciate a couple of these athletic kind of questions.
[00:10:33] Tommy Thomas: David Chadwick, a pastor in Charlotte has written a book on Dean Smith’s life: It's How You Play the Game. The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith.
[00:10:42] Tommy Thomas: And he says the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball leadership and society. Your thoughts on that.
[00:10:53] Dianne Ogle: Amen, brother. Amen. Like I said earlier, we are not called alone, and we need our teams, both in our organizations and outside of that, because that's when … I tell people I have one brain, like I just have one. And so I gather even my women say, okay, let's talk about our content.
Let's talk about our annual retreat. And even though I might come to the table with my own ideas, I want to have an open heart and ask questions. I feel really strong about the power of questions to gain others’ ideas and inspiration, and God uses us all so uniquely with the way he wired us with our personalities and our strengths and the way our stories have unfolded.
[00:11:38] Dianne Ogle: We do a lot of assessments in Arete too, over the years, not all it wants to beat us up, but so that we can not only know ourselves better, but the people that we work with in our different teams. And we have deeper understanding and appreciation, and we know who to tap for what assignment.
[00:11:56] Tommy Thomas: Here's a quote from Mother Teresa and I like to contextualize this. In the context of Arete’, I'm not called to be successful, but to be faithful. And so is there a tension there between the context in which the women you're working with that’s their existence.
[00:12:18] Dianne Ogle: And a lot of my women, as you can imagine, are high achievers. They're highly responsible. When you do these assessments on Strength Finders, they're big-time learners.
They're always insatiable to continue to grow and learn. And there is this tension, from the world's expectations and definitions of success and what God sees as success. And sometimes that's not the same. And are you okay with that? In different seasons, sometimes you're more front facing and other times he might have you in a prayer closet.
[00:12:51] Dianne Ogle: Or going through a tougher season to sharpen you and to get the dross off of us so that he can use us again. Yeah, that's just really important.
[00:13:03] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from General George Patton. Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
[00:13:13] Dianne Ogle: Yes, I love creativity. It's one of my favorite things. So that's why I like questions, because even if I think I know the answer, if I ask the question, it's just beautiful to hear what inspires somebody or what was bubbling in them or how they see it, quite frankly. It isn't the way I always see things or think it might play out.
So, you give people a door for their own strengths, their own creativity to participate and join in. And most of the time it's so much better than when we could do it alone or to your point, overreach and over lead and overmanage, then it's all about me, versus it's about us and how we're perfect, how we're navigating and pressing forward.
[00:14:01] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one. The best bosses aren't usually those who boost the bottom line as much as it is those who make you a better person and better at your job.
[00:14:13] Dianne Ogle: And that's called development, leadership development, and the organizations that get the value, and that's what my husband does. That's his sweet spot with large organizations.
[00:14:26] Dianne Ogle: And the organizations who believe that, whether it's coaching like what I do, whether it's the big-time strategies of leadership development, if we miss or you start pulling those budget dollars back from really pouring into your people, it will negatively impact your bottom line when you're too focused on the money and not the people.
[00:14:47] Dianne Ogle: And then you lose your legacy. When we're focused on the people and where they're going and have a true sense of wanting to see them succeed and learn and grow and step into their authentic, strong self and grow every stage and step of the way. That's part of our legacy, isn't it?
[00:15:10] Tommy Thomas: We talked about creativity and innovation a few minutes ago. Here's another quote. If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:15:21] Dianne Ogle: And then it gets dull and boring and antiquated. It's then we're no earthly good, and we serve a creative God Elohim who all we have to do is step outside and see the ocean, like where you live or the beautiful flowers that my husband's planted in the trees that I live around here in Georgia.
And we see his beauty in and out of season. So, creativity and innovation is like water to the soul. It should be that fresh flowing spring for any individual and organization to continue to thrive and strive for each season.
[00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one from Coach Smith. What do you do with the mistake? Recognize it, learn from it, admit it, forget it.
[00:16:14] Dianne Ogle: Confess it. Yeah. You got to confess it and go, Lord, help me. If I have a blind spot, am I not seeing this? Did I know it? Is there sin here? Do I need to apologize to somebody or the team or the organization? Learn from it. Have a humble heart. There's nothing more beautiful about a leader who has a cloak of humility that can admit and model when they've made a mistake.
And then how are they learning from it? Doesn't mean we have to be perfect. And that's the air that so many leaders believe, is that, oh, I'm in this position, so, I've got to be perfect. No, we should all be learning. And part of what we learn is to model when we have failed or made a mistake and that it's not the end of the world.
[00:17:06] Dianne Ogle: We'll pick ourselves back up. Hopefully, the consequences aren't too great, and we can keep navigating forward and we can shift and learn from it quite frankly, and model it to others to learn from.
[00:17:19] Tommy Thomas: No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your academic credentials, 15 percent by your professional experience and 80 percent by your communication skills.
[00:17:34] Dianne Ogle: Well, communication is critical, isn't it? Whether it's in writing, whether it's oral, whether it's your prayers to the Lord, having that grounded and rooted time where you have the vertical in line so that you can do the horizontal for all that he has called you to do. Not what your talents tend to want to take us up, take over.
No, he gave us our threading and our talents and our strengths, but we have to align it to his pace, his cadence, his work and his will every step of the way.
[00:18:12] Tommy Thomas: Peter Drucker, the most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.
[00:18:19] Dianne Ogle: And that's called discernment, leaning in. I think if leaders talk too much, they really miss out on pressing in and seeing and hearing using those languages in hearing beyond what is physically said or heard. And sometimes then a strong question can elevate and illuminate something brand new. Or a way to go in and comfort somebody or encourage them or help them out of an area where they might be stuck.
+++++++++++++++
[00:18:56] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to staff leadership for a minute before we bring this to a close.
[00:18:59] Tommy Thomas: What would go into a decision you might make to give somebody a second chance who had of course, I guess the degree of egregiousness would factor into that, but we all would like to have a second chance.
[00:19:11] Dianne Ogle: Absolutely. And God's a giver of second chances every day, right? None of us are perfect.
We've all sinned and fallen short of his glory. So why wouldn't we model that as Christ followers and Christ leaders? If we're truly being cloaked with his spirit and his power through us, we should be modeling second chances. Now, does that mean we're fools? No, sometimes we have to do the hard thing and fire people.
[00:19:38] Dianne Ogle: Nobody likes doing it that I've ever met, but sometimes it might be in the best interest of the institutional organization that you are entrusted with. Sometimes God's not done writing their story either. And it may be the best thing so that he can continue to do his work in and through them apart from the organization.
But yes, he's always in the business of second chances. Thank you, Lord.
[00:20:06] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard to get at the health of a nonprofit organization, what would some of your dials measure?
[00:20:15] Dianne Ogle: Just the health of your people and where are your priorities? What's that vision, mission, values that hopefully you've aligned with what the Lord wants you to do in that nonprofit and having the metrics.
So many times, I find nonprofits not wanting to have measurements and metrics. I don't really understand that because it's just in the spirit of excellence. It's not to shame you or to say you're a failure. But if we don't know where we're going, how are we going to know we ever got there? And so just having those benchmarks on a dashboard and in a visual way, which they make so beautifully these days, it can use it to help us to renavigate, to encourage, to inspire, to help make sure maybe we need to hire somebody we don't have on our team that needs different skill sets to contribute to where we're going.
[00:21:11] Tommy Thomas: If you were a judge on a non-profit version of Shark Tank where nonprofits were coming to you for early-stage investment, what questions would you need to have solid answers for before you would open your checkbook?
[00:21:26] Dianne Ogle: I'd want to know their viewpoint and their philosophy on leadership right from the beginning.
[00:21:33] Dianne Ogle: And you hear that on Shark Tank, it seems like they get invested if they believe that person has the passion and that they will lead well through every stage of those businesses. Same thing with non-profits. You can say you can have all these ideas, and a lot of people start opening for nonprofits because they are visionaries.
[00:21:52] Dianne Ogle: They might have a vision. They may not be great executors. So, can I hear from that senior leader that they would have the wisdom to know that they need to put a team into place? To be able to get that momentum going. The name of our business is business momentum group but getting that ministry momentum going is to make sure that you've got the people, you've got the willingness to get the people and resources and talent in place.
[00:22:18] Tommy Thomas: Let's bring this to a close. I have some lightning round questions. Some of them sometimes don't seem to lend themselves to lightning round answers , but I'll let you do that. What's one small act of kindness that you were once shown that you'll never forget?
[00:22:37] Dianne Ogle: I'm a cook and I have a gift of hospitality, but when I was having the boys, people brought me a meal or hosted me in their home, which doesn't happen a lot these days. That's just very sweet to me because I'm usually the one going, oh, I’ll bring it. Dianne, have you in her home? And I love doing that, but it's really nice when it's done for you.
[00:23:03] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anyone's ever given you?
[00:23:09] Dianne Ogle: To stay authentic and to stay in the game so that God can use me all my days.
[00:23:18] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in life or go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you tell her?
[00:23:26] Dianne Ogle: Hold on loosely. It's going to be a ride through the ups and downs and that you will weather through it with God by your side. He never leaves us. He never forsakes us. This great pain that you might think you're going through now is for greater good later. So stay encouraged, my daughter.
[00:23:50] Tommy Thomas: What do you understand about your life today that you didn't understand a year ago?
[00:23:56] Tommy Thomas: A year ago, or five years ago?
[00:23:59] Dianne Ogle: That he continues to amaze me with what he raises me up to do. I had the joy of praying at the National Day of Prayer. They asked me to pray over the sphere of business. And I said, are you sure? Because I pray privately. So I had never been asked to pray publicly in that kind of context.
And I knew how important our words are, talking about communication earlier, but if I'm going to speak, I'm like, Lord, then you need to write that prayer because it needs to not be Dianne at all. But just the surprise of what he taps us to do in different seasons is just beyond what we could ask or imagine.
[00:24:44] Tommy Thomas: If you could get a do over in life, what would it be?
[00:24:50] Dianne Ogle: I don't think anything because I think he uses it all. I just think, whether he's moved us, whether we've had hurts, he uses pain to make us greater. And makes us deeper in his rootedness of our lives. I used to have this, I had this vision one time and I had a friend say, if you had it to do over, would you just get rid of that pain?
I'm like, no, because it's a gift no one can take from me. It's part of my threading and it makes me who I am today. If we let him use it. So there is such a gift of pain.
[00:25:28] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Areté - Executive Women of Influence
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Dianne on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:01:07] Dianne Ogle: I had my first child in Texas and I was working for a corporation running their marketing department. And I had to put my oldest son in with a lady who had a small group of children in her home.
And every day I'd go get him. I would see him in a swing. And I told my husband, I cannot do this. I feel like I couldn’t run this marketing department yet. I want to have more of an impact on my own son. And so, my boss said, great.
She said go start your own business, figure out what that looks like. And I'll be your first client. And I thought, oh my goodness, how am I going to do this?
[00:01:47] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dianne Ogle. Dianne began her career in sales and marketing before making a name for herself as a leader who could grow organizations and identify trouble spots and bottlenecks that tended to enter an organization's growth and effectiveness. As a prominent figure in the Executive Women of Influence Network, Diana has dedicated her career to empowering women in leadership roles across various industry sectors.
Her leadership experience spans leadership development, team dynamics, and organizational strategy, thus making her a sought-after advisor and coach. Her impact is widely recognized, and she continues to inspire and support women in their professional journeys, helping them to navigate the complexities of leadership and achieve sustained success.
[00:02:38] Tommy Thomas: Dianne, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:41] Dianne Ogle: Thank you for having me, Tommy. I'm excited to be here with you.
[00:02:45] Tommy Thomas: I've been looking forward to this. You come with good recommendations from one of my previous guests and one of my future guests. I'm looking forward to this. Take me back to your childhood. What was that like? What are some of your fondest memories?
[00:02:59] Dianne Ogle: I grew up in the Midwest. I was born in Colorado but grew up in Indiana with a high work ethic, middle class. Early on, my parents took us to a church that didn't really preach the gospel as far as what the Bible taught.
And one summer when I was 11, my mom took us to a local Baptist church that had VBS. That was the first time both my mom and I heard the gospel. And she became a Christian with the mother’s group that they had. And then I did shortly thereafter and so it was a beautiful place to grow up and go to college.
And we lived on the baseball field because I had a brother who played baseball up until minor leagues. And so, there were three of us. I was the oldest of three. So, it was just a great way to grow up in the Midwest.
[00:03:57] Tommy Thomas: So, what was high school like?
[00:03:57] Dianne Ogle: I had to change high schools in my junior year. I went to one school in Indianapolis from kindergarten until my sophomore year. And then my parents went north of Indianapolis. And at the time it was a really rural area in Fishers, Indiana, which now it's like the largest high school. But back when I transferred, it was farm kids and I was the city girl moving out into the farm kids and I went kicking and screaming.
That was not a good transition for me, but the Lord's hand was in it even then. I had to take the driver's ed course and I had the athletic director who was a tough football coach, and my dad was a barker, so he didn't intimidate me, but he quickly got me involved and got me to be a stat girl because my brothers were athletes.
[00:04:58] Dianne Ogle: And he taught me to do the statistics for football, basketball, and track. And so, it was a great entry into a smaller school that was very established with kids who had been growing up together. And then I got a chance to be in musicals and got to play in Annie Get Your Gun. So, it was just a fun, great group.
[00:05:22] Tommy Thomas: What kind of career aspirations did a young 16-year-old Dianne have?
[00:05:29] Dianne Ogle: I had a lot of parents thinking I should go to California to go into acting. I had a lot of common sense of knowing the value of a dollar. Because I was raised that if you wanted extra money, you had to work.
So, I started working as a babysitter at age 11, got my first job at 15. I bought furniture, I bought my car. And so, I had a really deep, intrinsic work value at a very young age. And I didn't have a lot of role models of women. Unless you wanted to be a teacher or a nurse, there was not a lot of women, at least in my little world view at that time in the Midwest.
[00:06:06] Dianne Ogle: Mom stayed at home with us. Now I knew she had worked at the Air Force Academy back when she was single in finance but other than that, I didn't have a lot of visual people ahead of me that I could see. Now my dad was in business. And so that's started me out in that track of well, maybe that's what I’ll tip my toe into.
[00:06:29] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:06:35] Dianne Ogle: They are probably surprised that I come from all brothers, that I was raised on a baseball field, that I love sports, and I can talk with the best of them about many sports.
And now I have three boys, and I've got a grandson. And so, Boys-R-Us is what we call ourselves. And I now have two granddaughters. Yay, I've been redeemed. But it's interesting because now the Lord has had me working with mostly all women. So, it's interesting. I was raised with mostly all men and then God's used it to now have me work with women. So it's been a sweet time.
++++++++++++++++
[00:07:10] Tommy Thomas: You graduated from college, and you got out in the workforce. Take me back to the first time you ever had a staff. And what do you remember about that element of basic leadership?
[00:07:23] Dianne Ogle: I started my career in Indianapolis at a computer software company. And then about a year and a half in, I was working in Pittsburgh running a sales territory and their president's club, only women. So, I learned really young about being the only woman in a whole salesforce and I didn't see any women ahead of me. And then I was tapped in Pittsburgh to come to central Florida and open an office for a temporary help company, which is in your industry. I didn't have any experience in it, but I thought I would just go down there. And that really was my first hand at leadership because before that, as you can imagine, I'm in charge of a sales territory and my clients and peers, but I wasn't having anybody that I was personally in charge of leading until I moved to Florida, had to launch this office.
[00:08:19] Dianne Ogle: This was back in the early eighties and I had it doing over a million dollars in annual revenue within three years and they eventually had me take over Tampa and then do trap troubleshooting up here in Atlanta where I'm at. But yeah, that was the first time I got inherited by a staff, but then I had to build staff.
I had to train them both inside sales and outside sales and didn't get a lot of training. It was just let’s go do it.
I really did it based on my own values on what I saw worked. I have a high work ethic and integrity is huge for me. And so being able to just navigate that was really important for me.
[00:09:05] Tommy Thomas: If I could have shadowed you earlier at that time, as you were building that team, what would the typical weekday or month look like?
Dianne Ogle: I started out with team meetings, daily team meetings, especially for my internal staff, of course that was back before computers.
And so, everything was on these huge Rolodex clocks and these files that were flipping around and we had clients, we had built it to Martin Marietta and law firms and Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. We were considered a little bit higher level administrative, so we didn't do lower and then we did some permanent placement.
We would start off our day on just trying to get our grounding. Who was going to do what and what was coming up. Because every morning you had either calls coming in from clients or you had employees that either could or could not make their commitment, which was always a challenge.
And then my sales staff, who are you going to visit? What appointments do you have? What do you need? How can I come alongside you? Do you want me to go with you? And so just that constant motivation and help to make sure that they were adhering to what we needed the office to do.
[00:10:24] Tommy Thomas: If I could have been in one of your staff meetings and you took a break and left the room and I asked them, what's the toughest thing about working for Dianne? What do you think they would have said?
[00:10:35] Dianne Ogle: Probably just adhering to their commitment to their numbers and even if the climate is tough, and it is hard with rejections, especially my sales team.
But having to get back on the phone or having to try to get back in front of people, which is, like I said, we didn't have computers. So, all of it was either you had to just do cold calling. Knock on those old doors, which I got kicked out of some buildings early in my career, but you just had to have that tenacity and not every day is that easy.
And so that's probably what they would say is that, boy, she's going to keep making us get up and go back out and try to call that person again and try to see them. Because we found that the more we could see people in person and have that face to face, the stronger that trust bridge and relationship could happen.
[00:11:28] Dianne Ogle: And then we can not only help navigate any kind of problems or issues, but we have a chance to grow together. And so, we all knew, and that's what I kept telling all our team, both internal and external. We've got to be able to find ways to get in front of them to build those relationships.
[00:11:46] Tommy Thomas: If I flip that, what would they say was the most rewarding part of being on your team?
[00:11:51] Dianne Ogle: Probably their autonomy. I'm not a micromanager. And so, if they wanted to do their schedule a certain way, I wasn't going to micromanage how they did it. I always want to just come alongside to encourage and spur them on and help to motivate them for their highest and best. And quite frankly, it's tough every day, whether you're going through something personal, cause we're all whole people, right?
[00:12:15] Dianne Ogle: And how we show up each day can change based on other areas of our life that could be impacting us. And so just helping to navigate that I care deeply about not only today working with my C level clients, but also back then. We are real people. We have real issues. And so how can we be there to support each other?
[00:12:38] Tommy Thomas: You started out not having many mentors. When did mentors show up in your life?
[00:12:45] Dianne Ogle: Once I asked.
[00:12:47] Tommy Thomas: Okay.
[00:12:48] Dianne Ogle: I had my first child in Texas, and I was working for a corporation running the head of their marketing department. And I had to put my oldest son in with a lady who had a small group of children in her home.
And every day I'd go get him, and I would see him in a swing. And I told my husband, I cannot do this. I cannot feel like I could run this marketing department yet. I want to have more of an impact on my own son. And so, my boss said, great. So that's when I made the transition from corporate into on my own.
Cause she said just do your own job, go start your own business, figure out what that looks like. And I'll be your first client. And I thought, oh my goodness, how am I going to do this? And so, I ended up listening to a lady who was a speaker. She came from a similar but different background than me, but I could see, we saw things similar, and I thought, that's it.
[00:13:48] Dianne Ogle: I'm going to go up afterwards and ask her to mentor me. And what I didn't know, she was highly sought after. She was an author and a public speaker. And she heard my why and my desperation. And she goes, of course, but you'll have to do homework. I'm like, fine, put me to work. And her name's Betty Price out of Dallas.
And she was a gem. She shared; she opened her heart. She showed me how to write contracts. She showed me how to set up a business and really grow it. So that was absolutely amazing.
[00:14:20] Tommy Thomas: Before we get a little broader, what are some times in your life that have really tested your metal and what did you learn?
[00:14:36] Dianne Ogle: I got married at 30 and then we moved from Florida to Texas for my husband to go to seminary to get a master's in religious education and marriage and family counseling.
And so, I was the breadwinner, which didn't bother me at all because I'd been independent and been earning my own income, but it bothered him more because he came from a hospitality background. And so that was an interesting season for us because I didn't fit the mold of most seminary wives or any that I ever saw.
And we couldn't live on campus because my job location would bend too far for me to commute in that big metroplex. That was a hard season. Being a newlywed, having a heart for the Lord, but not finding community for anybody who could really. In fact, I got a lot of judgment and condemnation because of what I did.
And I wasn't fitting that traditional role of a seminary wife. That was painful back then.
[00:15:41] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox says progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken and how did it turn out?
[00:15:53] Dianne Ogle: Starting my own business. That was out of desperation. I had no vision. So that was also something I really wrestled with. Cause I'm like, I don't sell Tupperware or Avon. I don't know, what do you do? But it helped me. At least my old boss said do what you do now for me. And you'll figure it out.
And sure enough, I started having small businesses tap me to help them. At least I initially started helping them on how they could grow their business through effective sales and marketing and with the teams that they had and how to develop those teams so that they could be a producing, performing, high performance, achieving team together. But that was a huge risk because we were still meeting my income. And so, you go from the luxury of having great benefits and a great package to, oh my goodness, I got to build this thing fast.
[00:16:49] Tommy Thomas: It's been said, most of us learn most things from our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:16:57] Dianne Ogle: Because sometimes the stakes are high. Like in my case, we needed my income, and we needed it, it wasn't a luxury. We didn't have a lot put aside or family that would just say, oh, let me write you a check or any kind of investments back in that day. And so, there was a lot on the line for us to succeed or for me to succeed for sure. And yet still support my husband and our joint goals moving forward.
++++++++++++++
[00:17:27] Tommy Thomas: Let's move a little bit into your current organization. I'm fascinated and I'm going to probably mispronounce the title. So why don't you save me that embarrassment? And you tell us about your women's collaborative.
[00:17:39] Dianne Ogle: It's called Areté Executive Women of Influence. Areté is a Greek word. It is unique. But when, and I can tell you the backstory, the name is a Greek word that means excellence and the Greek men and women attained it, especially in the face of adversity. And when I saw that definition, I'm like, that's it.
That's the name. Because we all could either opt out or we press into the pain and stay in the game that God's called us to through that whole sphere of excellence, right? It's not perfectionism, but it's excellence.
[00:18:19] Tommy Thomas: Where did the idea come from? Did you think about it on the tennis court one day or did somebody approach you?
[00:18:26] Dianne Ogle: We serve a master weaver. He weaves our story, weaves our expertise. So, one of the clients that I had when I first started my business, someone in New York City found me and said, hey, we want to start a chapter for women business owners that are at a higher level. We want to start a chapter there in Dallas and we want you to launch it, grow it, run it.
And of course I had no background in that. I had other background, but I knew what it would take. I could see what it would take. Initially I said, no, because by then I think I had two little boys at home. I had other clients on my books, but they kept coming back around. And I thought, you know what? If I can rally women, because I too know the plight of the high-level woman and I can encourage her.
Then I need to be open to it. And so, it was very quickly the Lord let me know that I should take that endeavor on. And so, I grew a very large chapter in Dallas, ended up taking over their Houston chapter. And then there were some ethical issues. I just couldn't protect my Dallas women anymore.
[00:19:39] Dianne Ogle: I finally let them know I need to step aside because I cannot continue to be this placeholder for some integrity issues that I just can't be a part of anymore. So, they said Dianne, start your own. I'm like, okay. That's not my vision but they were desperate. So, I started my own with that particular group.
They all came with me, not that I was trying to do it out of ill means. It was their choice. And so, I launched it, figured out how to do a 501C(3) and did that until we moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. And I had my third boy at age 40, and I did that for just a small bit. And I finally handed the baton over to them and said, you take the organization.
[00:20:22] Dianne Ogle: I'm going to get this back to you because I needed to be more present for my boys in that new season. So then fast forward, we moved to Orlando and oh, back up, one other caveat. They called me their little Christian leader. And so, I always felt handcuffed in my leadership with them. They knew I was a Christian.
I'm not a Bible leader, but I'm authentically going to be who God created me to be. But they put me on notice that you better keep that in a box. And I thought, I told my husband, I said, that is too hard. That doesn't fit who I am. I'll never do that again. Love when you tell the Lord, never going to do that again.
[00:21:06] Dianne Ogle: That was hard. So fast forward in 20, the crash happened in 08. My husband had been with Wyndham Worldwide at that point for a decade and his job got released, finally catching up to him about 2010. So, I started introducing him to some men that I didn't know. They didn't know my backstory.
They didn't know me, but I would get us in front of some men. Cause I wanted to teach my husband, just have to tell your story and see what God's doing and see if there's any fits. Tommy, four men in a short amount of time would look across the table at me and I'm trying not to keep the conversation on me at all and said, Dianne, you need to start something for the high-level woman.
By the fourth one, who was the president of the Central Florida Chamber, he just knew he couldn't meet the needs of his high-level women and that he would come in contact with another one. It was his partner. Another one. It was his wife who was an engineer. It was, they were all coming from different places and spaces, but they heard the plight of the high-level woman.
[00:22:10] Dianne Ogle: So, I went back to my prayer closet, and I thought, Lord, I always say, here I am, use me, send me. I thought, woe to me if I start putting guardrails up going, been there, done that, this is too hard, I know what it would take. And he quickly showed me four columns, like those Grecian columns. Before he gave me the name of Areté, which is interesting how God works, but I'm a visual girl.
And he showed me that they would come from profit, non-profit, academia, and public service sectors. Because I always knew we were missing a lot of women. Not every woman owns her own business. I didn't come from that space. I ended up there by default, but I came from corporate, and I thought we're missing women everywhere, especially women of faith and those who love Jesus.
[00:22:55] Dianne Ogle: And I thought, what Lord, what would it look like if we could link arms with this higher level of women and create a container of confidentiality of trust of authenticity and vulnerability. What would that look like, Lord? And what could we do where we are better together? As one of our members says.
And so that's when Areté was born. I called my CPA at the time and said, this has been a year since I've done this. I don't know Florida laws. And she said, Dianne, get it going. I'll be your first member. I was like, whoa, I hadn't even quite made the decision that I was going to do this.
Then I'm like jumping in the fire ring again. So that's how that got launched.
[00:23:39] Tommy Thomas: So, it's primarily a word-of-mouth growth pattern.
[00:23:42] Dianne Ogle: Yes, Tommy, I would say absolutely. And our men still do this day. I had a pastor in Tennessee call me this week. He used to be my pastor at Knoxville.
And he said, hey, I've met somebody that, there's not many of y'all out here, but she needs to talk to you. And because I also do executive coaching. So, she wasn't sure if she needed executive coaching or if she needed an Areté type of group. Because we have a chapter in central Florida, one in Atlanta, and then I have remote members now I've opened that up for the past two years.
In Texas and Pennsylvania. And yeah, it's been quite an adventure for sure. Over the last 13 years now.
[00:24:22] Tommy Thomas: Next week, we will continue this conversation with Dianne Ogle. In that episode, Dianne shares her insights on the importance of authenticity, community, and resilience in leadership. She delves into the importance of building a supportive community among women leaders and the role of prayer in strengthening leadership.
She'll also share her observations on key areas that can derail leadership or enhance a leader's career. This episode offers profound insights for anyone looking to deepen their leadership impact.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Areté - Executive Women of Influence
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Dianne on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Samuel Chiang I would say to an upstart, boards are extremely demanding. And sometimes, those boards are like your father and mother, and they want to actually be helicoptering you all along. Be certain that you have people who are for you and not people who are wanting to have their agenda done through you.
It's probably the number one thing, and you say, what does that mean to have people who are for you, people who are going to be praying with you through the thin and thick things, and they not only believe in the vision, but also, they will call you to accountability because they know it's good and proper for you.
+++++++++++=
[00:00:47] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation we began last week with Samuel Chiang. In this episode, Samuel delves into the intersections of faith and technology. He discusses his journey from Taiwan to becoming a global leader in Bible translation and digital innovation. He shares insights on how artificial intelligence and emerging technologies are transforming the nonprofit sector. He also reflects on the challenges and opportunities of leading in a complex and rapidly changing world. Samuel’s thoughtful perspectives offer valuable lessons for leaders in any sector, particularly those navigating the intersection of faith in technology. This episode is a must listen for anyone interested in leadership, innovation and the impact of technology on global missions. Join me as we pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:46] Tommy Thomas: If you were writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the President or the CEO could uniquely bear, what would be some of your topics or chapters you would discuss?
[00:01:59] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so this is a very interesting question. For me, at the stage of life I'm in now and looking back, I think I would be consistent to say that the formation of the soul in a leader and in discipling and mentoring is absolutely critical.
[00:02:27] Samuel Chiang: And quite frankly, I'm thankful that I have been mentored by books in many different ways. Whether it's your classic Bobby Clinton, The Making of a Leader, or your Bill Hall, he wrote a trilogy of books, Disciple Making Pastors and things like that. Those sorts of things spoke into my life very deeply and it's been a part of my practice.
My practice has been, how does a leader disciple? In a workplace and really, quite frankly, in a non for profit to a for profit, both our workplaces, the discipling in both mentoring must go on in both. But when you move into a C suite level, there is an extra dimension in terms of the formation of the soul formation, in the C suites.
What is it God is up to, to have individuals in the C suites and how are they dealing with things on the inside? Those are very important topics.
[00:03:32] Tommy Thomas: Any books you're reading on those topics that people might learn from.
[00:03:38] Samuel Chiang: Oh, there have been many different books. Probably, Jim Wilder, is a wonderful, great read.
Others would be thin little books, but profound, equally. And I read them over and over, Ari Nguyen's books. I would say they're very important as well for the soul. I would say also those books are not ones in which people want to learn how to, those ones are much more feeding into the being side. How am I, and what are my biggest shadows? That is a detriment for leading others.
[00:04:01] Tommy Thomas: Maybe a lighter question. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank, and people were coming to you for early-stage investments, what questions have you got to have answers to before you open your checkbook?
[00:04:43] Samuel Chiang: Oh, yeah. Okay.
- What is the problem that you're trying to solve?
- What is your purpose?
- And who is on your board?
[00:04:51] Tommy Thomas: Unpack the board piece for a minute. Boards are so critical. And what are you telling an upstart about their board?
[00:05:04] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. I would say to an upstart, boards are extremely demanding. And sometimes, those boards are like your father and mother, and they want to be helicoptering you all along. Be certain that you have people who are for you and not people who are wanting to have their agenda done through you.
It's probably the number one thing, and you say, what does that mean to have people who are for you, people who are going to be praying with you through the thin and thick things, and they not only believe in the vision, but also they will call you to accountability because they know it's good and proper for you.
[00:05:52] Samuel Chiang: And people who are for you, probably, I always look for advisors or board members who are, if you will, not only right handed, but some of them would be left handed. We need both sides of people who are highly logical, but also highly creative. And so therefore, many people who are startups, have to pivot.
They have to be agile. They must think laterally and people who are very logical might not be able to pivot as quickly, but people who are highly creative could maybe see the things that the entrepreneur startup sees. So, you need a combination of both. And I will highly always recommend both men and women. The perspectives are real and they're meaningful.
[00:06:46] Tommy Thomas: Do you think it's important to have someone on the board who's a logical, or a natural critic, you say you want people for you and I get that. And then I see the piece about, holding you accountable. If I remember right, I think Rich Stearns told me at World Vision at each Board Meeting, they appoint, and they got a name for this person, but this person is supposed to say, yeah, but he or she is supposed to listen and then come back with a counter argument.
[00:07:17] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. Okay. The original question was about a startup. And then it applies whether you're going to have a counter argument. Would you have somebody who is going to be an appointed critic or appointed somebody who's going to say the bots. Absolutely. That would be healthy for the board.
And I used the word health in a very, meaningful way. You don't need just help, but you need health in the board and the health of the board, should have somebody who's going to be an open critic, constructive, and positive. For the whole board to receive those thoughts. It's absolutely important.
+++++++++++=
[00:08:09] Tommy Thomas: Let's stick with our startup nonprofit. You're developing a dashboard to help the founder get at their health. What dials are you putting on the dashboard?
[00:08:20] Samuel Chiang: Wow. I will say, on the dials, I would want to know, what are we measuring? And, depending on the type of nonprofits, I would say, yes, you want to measure your financial health, but you want to be able to measure your human health.
You want to be able to measure your social capital health, depending on the type of not for profit. You may also want to measure your natural health. So, there's several different items to measure from your human capital, financial capital, social capital, natural capital, and then, on a dashboard, I also will want to know what is our pathway to solving the problem.
[00:09:06] Samuel Chiang: For any social entrepreneur, you have to ask the question, for the Shark Tank question that you're asking. What was your purpose? What problems are you trying to solve? And who's on your board? You have to have a clear pathway to solve your problem. And then, probably, what does sustainability look like in multiple horizons?
[00:09:32] Tommy Thomas: I've read two or three articles in the past six months, about the productivity of people that would be my age and your age and older. And it seems like a lot of us are pretty productive. After working your way through a career, do you have any thoughts on employing people in their upper years and what you might expect there.
[00:10:00] Samuel Chiang: For people who are in their upper years, I will want to say to them, you still have a lot to offer, and that offering is for people to be taken either one sip at a time, one bite at a time. You cannot give it to them all at once. And nobody wants it all at once.
It may not be relevant all at once. And I would say to be very selective on the assignments that you're going to take. Be watching out for the talent that may be placed in front of you. And it would be wonderful if the relationship developed with those talents are such that they're coming for you. So, they want to learn from you.
That's a whole lot easier than if you want others to learn about you. Ao those are some initial things I would say.
[00:11:07] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to succession planning. You've experienced that in different organizations. I'm sure on boards you've sat on, y'all have done it. What's the pros and cons of promoting from within to the CEO chair?
[00:11:25] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so it really depends on the season that the organization is in. Sometimes, it is better to bring somebody from the outside. I would say this in a healthy organization that's larger, if leaders develop, the way the management system works, I would say it would be, my preference would be to promote someone from within for a larger organization than to bring them out from the outside.
Yeah, it does matter depending on the season the organization is in.
[00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: How much of a role should the outgoing CEO play in hiring his or her successor?
[00:12:11] Samuel Chiang: Again, it depends on the stage of the organization. I would say that the hiring process probably is best as a muted voice rather than an active voice, because it's really the board's responsibility.
And, to have a CEO, to have an active voice, some dynamics just get weird. And then, if there's an active voice by the outgoing CEO, on the next hire, and the next hire did not go well, et cetera, too many dynamics. So better to be muted.
[00:12:52] Tommy Thomas: What about the outgoing CEO maybe sticking around in an emeritus role as emeritus CEO, or even serving on the board?
[00:13:03] Samuel Chiang: Yeah. I have met with a situation in one of the boards I currently sit on, the outgoing CEO or former leader is in the emeritus role. As long as there is a real understanding of that emeritus role in terms of a job description. Pretty boxy. And if there's a continued passion for that person to be in the boxy emeritus role, I'm all for it.
++++++++++++++
[00:13:37] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to a couple of quotes I wanted to get your response to.
If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:13:49] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I totally agree.
Tommy Thomas: And y'all did a little bit of that, with Wycliffe and the Seed Company.
[00:13:56] Samuel Chiang: Oh, we did. And I think they still do.
[00:14:02] Tommy Thomas: No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your academic credentials, 15 percent by your professional experience, and 80 percent by your communication skills.
[00:14:16] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I agree with that. And I think the communication skills are one of EQ, because I'm thinking in a smaller startup and the median size organization. Yes. Your communication skills are really you at the leader, but even at larger organizations, that communication skill could be outsourced by other people and, outsourced to someone who has your voice and writing things for you, but you yourself must have that ability to be relational with your colleagues and with people who are in your company work organization.
[00:15:00] Tommy Thomas: Never tell people how to do things, tell them what to do. And they will surprise you with their ingenuity. General George Patton.
[00:15:11] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah, and especially these days with all the generative AI and all that stuff.
[00:15:20] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, you try to outsmart that. No, you're not going to, it's not going to happen. So, I agree with General George Patton.
[00:15:28] Tommy Thomas: A lot of people have said they, I guess their persona of General Patton is that he would have never operated that way. I've not read enough about him to make a meaningful comment there.
[00:15:39] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, it would. I'm still learning, so I'll have to find out.
[00:15:47] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, let's go back to board for a minute. Here's a quote. The fewer board members, the better. If it's 18, I'm just not interested. Ernest Happel.
[00:15:56] Samuel Chiang: I totally agree. It's very difficult. Yeah, Jesus had a reason for a dozen.
[00:16:07] Tommy Thomas: Let’s close this thing out with a couple of, maybe penetrating questions. If you had a do over in life to do, what would it be?
[00:16:27] Samuel Chiang: Probably I would maybe want to stay at home a little bit more, travel a little bit less. In 1992 to 2000, 2001, it was 100, 120 days a year. 2002 to 2016 was about 150, 160 days a year and it went down a little bit and right now it's gone back up. I would say I would maybe want to travel a little bit less.
Though I will say this. I have always asked our kids, would you like me to be gone during the week and come home on the weekends? We're taking longer trips and then staying home longer. They, without fail said, no, take short trips, always be home on the weekends. That's what we practiced.
[00:17:22] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, as far as redo - No, I think other than that, I don't think there's too many things that I would want to redo.
[00:17:30] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. If you could tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would it be?
[00:17:40] Samuel Chiang: I probably would say something to the effect, don't just think about discipleship and mentorship of others. Think about your interior life earlier and how God is actively creating that infrastructure, the interior life. And that's probably something I would want a younger leader to hear, learn, and experience earlier.
++++++++++++++
[00:18:11] Tommy Thomas: Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Beyond Literate Western Models - Contextualizing Theological Education in Oral Contexts - Samuel Chiang
Orality Breakouts - Using Heart Language to Transform Hearts - Samuel Chiang & Avery T. Willis
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:15] Samuel Chiang: When I was probably 11, maybe 12 years old, I told my grandfather I wanted to be like him. He was a lawyer, and he immigrated to Canada after us.
And he was a specialist in the Canadian government when he arrived in Canada, because he knew Chinese law. When I said to him, I want to be like you, he said to me, your English must be impeccable. And I said, okay. He said, but I wouldn't want you to practice as a defense lawyer.
I said, why? He didn't answer the question right away. He said, you may want to be a corporate lawyer. That always stuck with me. And then he said, you don't want to be a defense lawyer because sometimes you could be defending somebody, and then in the midst of a trial, they confess to you everything.
[00:01:16] Samuel Chiang: And you're stuck. He said, it's very painful to handle that type of thing in the midst of a trial.
++++++++++++++=
[00:01:24] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Samuel Chiang. Samuel has a diverse and accomplished background that significantly influenced his leadership. He was born in Taiwan and later moved to Canada where he grew up and began his professional career. He graduated from the University of Toronto when he began his career at Ernst & Young in Canada.
In addition to Ernst & Young, Samuel has served in senior leadership roles with The International Orality Network, Trans World Radio and Partners International. He also served as the president and CEO of The Seed Company, a Bible translation organization within the Wycliffe family. Under his leadership, the organization focused on making scriptures available in oral and written forms for unreached and Bibleless peoples. Along the way he gained a great appreciation for using technology in the workplace. And he pioneered the use of AI in both the private and non-profit sectors. He and his wife Robbi make their home in the Dallas Metroplex.
Let's pick up on the conversation with Samuel Chiang.
[00:02:46] Tommy Thomas: What's your happiest memory of childhood?
[00:02:51] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, it depends on which segment. I remember, in my early teens, playing my violin. Whether it was solo, whether it was ensemble, whether it was orchestral, that was very special, that I remembered. I remember playing tennis, teaming together in tennis.
[00:03:11] Samuel Chiang: It was great. You might not know this about me, I'm a five-time immigrant, and so my immigrant experience, even when I was younger, first arrived from Taiwan to Canada, everything was new. That was a wonderful memory.
[00:03:28] Tommy Thomas: At what age did y'all come to Canada?
[00:03:31] Samuel Chiang: I was a little bit over 10 years old. And, so everything was new, yeah, all the senses were new. I only had the alphabet and seven phrases of courteous language, thank you, excuse me, will you please, those types of languages. And that's how I started in Canada.
[00:03:54] Tommy Thomas: Do you remember how long it took you to get reasonably fluent in English?
[00:04:01] Samuel Chiang: Oh, my goodness, it was quite a long time. Let's just say, you're grade five, grade six, grade five, in Canada. Probably I did not become fluent until I was nearly 16.
[00:04:15] Tommy Thomas: Wow. So, what's the greatest gift that your parents gave you?
[00:04:24] Samuel Chiang: I think immigrating to Canada. They're both Christians. They said to us, we don't want you to be conscripted into the military in Taiwan. And so, we want to give you and your brother a chance to experience things very differently. And I believe the gift of Canada in that immigration and the growth in that environment was the greatest gift my parents gave to us.
[00:04:55] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like in Canada?
[00:05:00] Samuel Chiang: I went to a high school that was 66 percent Jewish. And I knew the sons and daughters of literally captains of industries. And I watched how they grew up in a very unique setting. Jewish people, by and large, love the arts, are great contributors to society as a whole, from history to research, etc.
And when they love the arts, their sons and daughters are top in their forms in terms of music, et cetera. So it was, they pulled me along. I was a learner. I thought I was good at playing my violin, but these other students were even better than I am. And they pulled me along.
[00:05:45] Tommy Thomas: You decided to go to university. Did you consider a lot of colleges and universities, or did you pick one and say, I'm going there?
[00:05:55] Samuel Chiang: My goodness. in Canada, it's interesting in Canada, you get to pick three. I did. And then it was ultimately my parents saying to me, if you went to this university and lived at home, we'll pay for everything.
I accepted that and actually stayed home and went to University of Toronto, and studied economics and finance and accounting and it was good. It was good to be in Toronto.
[00:06:23] Tommy Thomas: How did you get into the econ and finance and accounting field? Did you know somebody that had been a CPA or an economist?
[00:06:32] Samuel Chiang: No, numbers were always of interest to me. And, let me rewind the conversation a little bit, for myself. When I was probably 11, maybe 12 years old, I told my grandfather I wanted to be like him. He was a lawyer, and he immigrated to Canada after us.
And he was a specialist in the Canadian government, when he arrived in Canada, because he knew Chinese law and when I said to him, I want to be like you, he said to me, your English must be impeccable. And I said, okay, he said, but I wouldn't want you to practice as a defense lawyer.
I said, why? He didn't answer the question right away. He said, you may want to be a corporate lawyer. That always stuck with me. And then he said, you don't want to be a defense lawyer because sometimes you could be defending somebody, and then in the midst of a trial, they confess to you everything.
[00:07:42] Samuel Chiang: And you're stuck. He said, it's very painful to handle that type of thing in the midst of a trial. And I listened to that. And so, I thought, do I want to be a corporate lawyer? But reading was not my strong suit. Not yet at that time. And then I love numbers. And so, that’s the way I went into accounting, finance and economics.
[00:08:12] Tommy Thomas: So, what was your favorite part of college?
[00:08:21] Samuel Chiang: At University of Toronto, there were two things. One was in social sciences, sociology, and then the other one was actually computer science which surprised me because in high school, I never took computer science, but at University of Toronto, at that time still had to use those card decks where you punch holes and all that, and we used that to solve problems. That was solving problems and I loved it.
[00:08:50] Tommy Thomas: You and I would be from that age. Yes. We took Fortran and COBOL, and we had those big, big boxes of cards. And, yes, I remember those days. What is something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:09:13] Samuel Chiang: They would say to me, even most recently, they would say, oh, you speak English so well. I don't know what to say about that. That's a surprising thing. Actually, the world over, I have had people saying that to me.
[00:09:30] Tommy Thomas: Think back to your first management job when you actually had some people that you were responsible for. What do you remember about that?
[00:09:40] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I remember very specifically at Ernst & Young that even when I have people reporting to me, even though I was maybe really green in my experiences, people were just very respectful. They were very accepting and very professional.
[00:09:58] Samuel Chiang: That just made me feel like they were helping me to do what I needed to do. And even though I might not even have much experience in doing any supervision, I always remember the way that people accepted me. They were very professional, very respectful.
[00:10:21] Tommy Thomas: Each of us probably has times in our life where in the South, we would say our metal has been tested. I'm not sure what the Canadian equivalent with that, or the Chinese equivalent for that would be, but have you had times in your life when your metal was tested? And if so, how did you come out of it?
[00:10:39] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, so very specifically, I remember in high school, in one of the violin pieces in the ensemble, I worked hard to get the lead part in that ensemble, very specifically for a competition. I didn't get it. Another student who was a great younger got it.
And yeah, my heart was crushed. But that was one of those sorts of moments. I had to really console myself to say, okay, this is the Bach triple violin concerto. So, there are three leads. I got none of those, but I'm still the lead for the entire ensemble. And that's a role to play.
So, I better play it well. And so that was the first time. The second time was, that I recall very specifically, was in an organization. On the one hand, being interviewed to be the CEO of the organization. On the other hand, I had a whole group of people complaining about me and they were doing an examination about my ministry practices and procedures and all that stuff.
[00:12:02] Samuel Chiang: And, I remember during the interview that the board chair said, I just hope that examination piece will go away soon so that we can interview you properly. As it turns out, that examination piece did not go away anytime soon. It took nine months, but it was great. It was a wonderful experience with the Lord.
I would never trade it for anything else. Because I was in that situation, they decided not to interview me further for the candidacy of CEO for that organization. That was crushing, but between the two, I would never trade the experience with the Lord going deep with him, and don't even want to come out of the water, if you will, we're out of the ocean, if you will, and just want to stay longer.
So that's a heart matter that was very deep within me.
[00:13:06] Tommy Thomas: You've built a lot of organizations over the years, been CEO, founded companies. Let's talk about hiring for a minute. When you're hiring at the cabinet level in general, what are you looking for?
[00:13:18] Samuel Chiang: At the cabinet level, the C level, I often look for their EQ, the emotional quotient, that's pretty important to me, their character, their culture.
And then their competency, character and culture. Those are non-negotiables competencies, you could throw that where you could delegate some of it away, but their emotional quotient, their culture, their character.
[00:13:50] Tommy Thomas: What's your favorite or most effective interview question?
[00:13:57] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I think we might even start around the same place. Tell me a little bit about your childhood. I would love to hear the friends and the friendships and the relationships that you have had. And then I also ask often, tell me a little bit about how you left home for your work, for your college, for your university.
[00:14:23] Tommy Thomas: Wow. That is a penetrating question. Yeah. How you left home. Yeah, one of my recent podcast guests said that one of the things she wished that she learned earlier was how to terminate somebody with grace and dignity. What have you learned about terminating people when it's just not working out?
[00:14:52] Samuel Chiang: My biggest piece about termination is, I have to be very clear. I have to tell myself not to pass on any problems further. Oftentimes you terminate because people handed it to you. And, with grace and all that be very clear, keep the dignity of the individual, offer ways to consider rescaling, or in some cases offer them the possibility for HR to help them to look for their next assignment.
[00:15:28] Samuel Chiang: Those are some of the things that I have practiced and have practiced consistently. The clarity is very important for people.
[00:15:43] Tommy Thomas: You've been president of The Seed Company and other organizations but take us into that presidency. How did you get there? What was it like when you got there?
[00:15:57] Samuel Chiang: Oh, wow. Yeah. I have served on the board of The Seed Company.
And I learned a lot. And then I remember, it's a long story. I'll keep it short. I was invited to come off the board to apply and I did. And it was the summer of 2014. And during that time, I wasn't quite sure I was supposed to apply, even though I'd been invited. So, I prayed, and it was during the time that the summer of 2014 was, the Ebola crisis in West Africa.
I was actually in West Africa at the time, and the Lord met me, twice. Nothing audible, but it was a sense of understanding from the Lord. And because of those two understandings, very deep, very unique moments. It was almost like he was having inner conversations with me. It was out of that experience that I put myself forward.
[00:17:08] Samuel Chiang: And then I also asked the Lord, I said, I need to know that I have a specific assignment within The Seed Company or Bible translation as a whole. And he did, he put on my heart the need for the Old Testament very specifically. So, it was through that and ultimately, the visa process that came into this country, in the United States on a O-1 visa.
And then, when I was pointed into the role and started, the board was ever so kind to provide an onboarding coach. That was marvelous in the sense that I lived overseas, working in Hong Kong for 25 years, coming into the United States. I discovered much later; I have multiple massive gaps.
And the board was so kind to bring along onboarding coaching and subsequent coaches for me to bridge the gap and understand things. And so that was wonderful in the role. It was challenging. It was knee driven every day, asking God for things that I've never asked before, and then watching and understanding God's leading in that.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:18:29] Tommy Thomas: Now, I probably don't know all the, know the whole, how to explain that, but my understanding was that The Seed Company was, at least at one level, a way of shortening the Bible translation process from the classical Wycliffe M.O. Is that correct? Is that more or less, right? Yes. So you, if you're operating there, I'm assuming you had some pushback from people that had been in the field translating the classical way for many years.
How did y'all resolve that and realize that those two things could probably peacefully coexist?
[00:19:07] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I think I'll answer that on multiple levels. One level is for the desire of people receiving the scripture sooner rather than later. Everyone, it's almost a justice issue, isn't it?
Everybody has a right to the scripture, and will they receive it sooner rather than later? So that is the DNA within and then the indigenous model, which The Seed Company was founded upon, of the indigenous church doing the translation of the Word. That's a little bit different and we need both.
[00:19:49] Samuel Chiang: We absolutely need both of the people who have been called. But the calling of the missionary and the calling of the indigenous translator, they're the same call to serve God, and in a very specific field, Bible translation. And so, we need both. Coexistence doesn't always come easy, even today. I'm still involved in Bible translation in other organizations.
And even today, it's still not easy. Even with church-based translation, and even with artificial intelligence, that friction continues and the friction that continues, it's really a sense of working it out relationally, horizontally, and then vertically with God. What is God's desire in all of this?
So, man's side of holding on to the tension is always very interesting.
[00:20:57] Tommy Thomas: A pastor on the East Coast once told me, see if I remember this right, he said the most difficult thing in the world is living in the center of the tension of God's will.
[00:21:07] Samuel Chiang: Oh, my goodness, it really is.
And then in Bible translation, it's not only living in the center of God's will, but the desire to have quality assurance, really super wonderful, clear, natural language of the translation, so that the community as a whole will say that is God's Word for me.
[00:21:33] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you've ever undertaken and how did you get the team to follow you?
[00:21:41] Samuel Chiang: Probably the most ambitious one that I've taken was when we did the First Light Project. First Light Project was a technology project.
And then to have content providers that will link in with the studies of the Chinese word of all resident on a software program into China. Now, we have to remember, this is back in the mid 90s and late 90s. And everything back then, it was still slow. A cell phone was not really in existence. People remember satellite phones.
And then people in China were still at that time, having some scriptures, scripture was at that time, sometimes carried into China. And oftentimes, the good work of your friend Ed Cannon, FEBC, and then, Trans World Radio were broadcasting into China and people were scribing word for word the precious word of God, and we thought in a multiple horizon scenario, they will have the software and technology available to them.
[00:23:01] Samuel Chiang: Maybe what we could do is provide Bible resident on the software with content writers on it, and then give it to the church in China. That was avant garde. It was at the forefront of its time. And, trying to get people around the world on it, has been, that wasn't just in Hong Kong, but it would get people around the world on it was both exciting and exhausting.
[00:23:27] Tommy Thomas: So, if I could have shadowed you for maybe a year or so during that time, what would I have observed? What would you be doing?
Oh, wow. If you were shadowing me back in the 90s during that period of time, you would probably get something like this on a typical day. I would be in Hong Kong. Early in the morning, making calls to North America, trying to raise funds.
I would be during the daytime working with technical teams and contacting teams first to make sure the accuracy of the Bible in digital format will be there. And then in the afternoon, I will be working with the technical teams in India because it was not a Chinese team that wrote it.
It was actually the technical team in India that wrote the software for it, for the Chinese Bible. And so that would be a typical day of working, very exciting.
[00:24:26] Tommy Thomas: I want to stick with the technology piece for a minute. I know our good friend, Bill Hendricks, told me that you'd been involved in a couple of AI projects.
Can you take us into the world of AI and how it intersects with the nonprofit sector in general, and maybe talk about some pros and cons, some risks and rewards.
[00:24:46] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, sure. A little bit about AI, artificial intelligence, is, for me, the ones I have been involved in, very specifically, it was 2016 on a Sunday morning. I read in the news that Google AI beat the South Korean in gold chess. And then the newspaper reported that in any given second, the Google AI could calculate a hundred million moves. That got my mind thinking very quickly about the number one issue at that time in Bible translation was in sign language, there was not a scripture, not a full text of scripture for sign language.
And it got my mind thinking that people who are deaf in the deaf community when they sign, our body could only make so many gestures. To us, it might seem like millions, but it's a limited set. It's not unlimited. So, we thought maybe the computer vision could help solve that. And so that got us started on the artificial intelligence side of things and we created a not for profit and, and ultimately, we filed patents in that not for profit and then, a year and a half after it got started, not only the US Trademark and Patent office approved all those patents, the board of that not for profit asked us to spin it out into a for profit company and we did ultimately.
[00:26:39] Samuel Chiang: So that's a little bit of background to that. Could I expand a little bit?
[00:26:44] Tommy Thomas: Absolutely. You're talking to a novice here. I'm probably learning as much or more than anybody that's listening to this.
[00:26:50] Samuel Chiang: When we spun it out. The company name is called Avodah, AVODAH.com or AVODAH.ai.
[00:27:01] Samuel Chiang: It is a God story that we actually got that name. We had prayed in wanting to have a single word that would represent, work, worship and service. And we knew the Hebrew name for it, that the word for it, Avodah or Avoda. But to grab that domain name was not the easiest.
[00:27:25] Samuel Chiang: We're very thankful to God that it came. And as we spun it out, into the for profit, it's actually working on both the healthcare side as well as the language side, so as to serve, again, the language communities, who are without the word of God. And then also the healthcare side, for what we call ambient technology, ambient sensing.
[00:27:50] Samuel Chiang: So, it stays in the background. And it listens to your case. Let's just say you were the doctor. I walked into your office. You've maybe had a nurse practitioner that will meet with me, take my case, and then you as a doctor would meet me and look at the summary of the nurse practitioner has written down.
And the ambient AI technology sits in the background listening to the conversation once with the nurse practitioner and the second time again with the doctor. And then it's AI assisted, in helping, the doctor to either confirm or augment the decision and then on top of that, once the patient leaves it does automatic coding into the insurances, et cetera.
[00:28:40] Samuel Chiang: So that will reduce the amount of time in a doctor's office, the front office, and then it increases the ability for doctors to serve more patients and, hopefully, save money and maybe increase the revenue.
[00:28:56] Tommy Thomas: Wow. You hear people that are fear mongers about AI and what it might do to us and then you hear a story like that obviously made a huge difference. Where does the fear mongering play in?
[00:29:14] Samuel Chiang: Yeah, I think the fear mongering is very real and, unfortunately, people have misused AI in many different senses from voice for actors to pictures that portray individuals wrongly.
[00:29:31] Samuel Chiang:: And then of course, people use it, in ways that influence and affect, ultimately to the elections. All those are in place. So it is a very large piece that is under consideration for many of the societies right around the world. And it is a concern.
(00.20.56) Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Beyond Literate Western Models - Contextualizing Theological Education in Oral Contexts - Samuel Chiang
Orality Breakouts - Using Heart Language to Transform Hearts - Samuel Chiang & Avery T. Willis
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Judy Douglass: A couple of years before we moved from California to Florida the Lord said to me, I'm sending you a son. And I said, no, thank you. And he said, I'm sending you a son. I said, okay, whatever you say, and time passed, and it didn't happen then and two years passed and he said, when you get to Florida, someone will say, can you take this boy? And I said, if that happens, then I guess this is from you, Lord.
Tommy Thomas Today, we're continuing the conversation we began last week with Judy Douglas. In this episode, Judy delves into her personal and professional journey, highlighting the importance of resilience, humility, and faith. She shares stories from her time working with Bill Bright and the transformative impact of adopting a foster child. This episode is packed with valuable lessons for leaders and caregivers alike. Let's pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:06] Tommy Thomas: I'm curious. and here again, you've probably already alluded to this, but times in your life that have really tested your metal and what did you learn from those?
[00:01:19] Judy Douglass: I've mentioned that one was working with Bill Bright. And he just had strong different opinions than I did. And I needed to be responsive to him. He was the boss. So there were a couple of times when he wanted me to do something I really didn't want or think I could do because I didn't agree.
[00:01:48] And I asked the Lord, I said, maybe I should just leave the staff now. And the Lord said, no. He said, you can do what Bill wants you to do. And you've already demonstrated that you can help him see another perspective. and I'll give you an example of that. So, at Explo 74 in Korea, we went to Yeouido Island.
[00:02:19] Judy Douglass: And we had about 100,000 there, I think. I don't know. But the Korean people were reporting to the press that there were a million there every night. And I had another reporter from Christianity Today there also, and we said, there's no way there are many people here. And so, we actually walked the whole island.
And then said, all right, with Americans, you could only get this many because they're not going to be crunched up tight, but the Koreans are smaller, and they are willing to be right next to each other. And so, we got the biggest number we could possibly find. And it was not a million when Bill started to talk about it.
[00:03:12] Judy Douglass: And he said, there were a million people. And I said, Bill, there weren't a million people there. He said, that's what we need to say. I said, but it's not true. He said, that's what the Koreans are reporting, and we need to not offend them by not believing what they're saying. I said, okay, so here's how I can do that.
I can say the official reported numbers were by the police. And so, then that was true. That was their official reported numbers. But it's still always every time I heard somebody say there were a million people there. No, there weren't. No, there weren't. But that was hard. And I had a few run-ins with Dr. Bright that made me want to leave the staff. God just says this is where I want you and the other was waiting on Steve. It was a long wait, we got married, I was 31, now that wouldn't seem so strange, but 50 years ago, it seemed strange. You don't wait that long to get married, but God said, no, you wait, you just wait, I'm going to do this.
So those are two that were challenging for me. There have been some others, but those are probably the bigger ones.
[00:04:33] Tommy Thomas: You've observed a lot of leaders over the course of your life. What's the most dangerous behavior or trait that you've seen derail a leader's life?
[00:04:49] Judy Douglass: Pride. They think they know, and they may know, more than others.
But to think you're better or more, make decisions, but also pride leads to a sense that I can do what I want. I'm the boss, I'm in charge. And that's what leads to a lot of the failures that we've seen publicly lately is that. So more than anything, I think it's pride and that's why even as I talk about Bill Bright and Steve Douglass, both very capable men, great leaders, I watched them.
[00:05:31] Judy Douglass: They were maybe two of the humblest people I've ever met. And so I just get concerned when people have to draw attention to themselves. For me, one of my key things as I work with people and have a team, I still have a team of 15 people. They do all the work. I just love on them. I'll tell you a story back in my early days of doing the Collegiate Challenge Magazine.
No, the Worldwide Challenge. Bruce Cook, who was Steve's roommate at Harvard, said something to me about a project that we had done for the magazine. And he says, that was really good. And I said, it was good, wasn't it? I said, I didn't do that. So and so did it. And I named who it was. And I said, they did a great job.
[00:06:25] Judy Douglass: And he said, one of the most important leadership principles that you can learn is to lift up the other people, to send the credit where it belongs and not take it yourself. I just am so grateful that God has helped me grow in that. So, I would recommend it to anyone.
[00:06:51] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we learn most from our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:07:00] Judy Douglass: Good question. I suppose I'm sure I can think of many, especially as a parent, but, one real failure was at two different times, but very similar. I had two women on my team that I was working a lot with and, I've already told you, I'm not a big rural follower and yet they were very structured and wanted to know exactly what was going to happen and who, and I just am a little looser and so, both of them ended up leaving our team. I didn't ask them to, I was sure we could come to some ability to work together, but they just felt they could not live on a team that was not more structured and that's who they were and everything. Now they're still friends to me that I could not help and see where I could work better.
[00:08:07] Judy Douglass: To be able to come together better because they were gifted people, and I was sad to see them go. So that was major. Probably another area that tested my metal and where I've seen failure is this boy that God sent us, right before we moved. A couple of years before we moved from California to Florida so, the Lord said to me, I'm sending you a son. And I said, no, thank you. And he said, I'm sending you a son. I said, okay, whatever you say, and time passed, and it didn't happen then, and two years passed and he said, when you get to Florida, someone will say, can you take this boy? And I said, if that happens, then I guess this is from you, Lord.
[00:09:03] Judy Douglass: Three weeks after we got here to Florida, this new friend said, do you know someone who could take an eight-year-old boy? And tears just came, and I said, we might, I probably ought to talk to Steve about that. Anyway, this boy, his mother was an addict, and he didn't know his father and his grandparents were raising his older half-sister and he was living in neglected and dangerous places and lots of stuff and the county finally took him away. And the grandparents had him, but they said we can't do two of them. And so, they were looking to put him in foster care, hopefully adoption. It took a while, like a year to work out with the county and he came to live with us.
[00:09:58] Judy Douglass: He was almost 10. He couldn't read or write. Basically all sorts of issues in his life. And God sent him to us. He was shocked. We go to bed at a certain time, dinner at a table that we ate. We had dinner, and it was just so many things that were different for him and for us. And so that was challenging.
But as he got older, it was harder and harder because he just was so wounded by all the things that happened to him and didn't happen for him. And we just, we know we made mistakes. We didn't do it all right. It was hard, but in the end, it took about 16, 17 years, a long time. He's a good man now.
[00:10:49] Judy Douglass: He's married, he has a stepdaughter, and then two little girls. He has a good job, drilling water wells out in the country, and they have a farm, and they raise animals, and all sorts of things, and he works. My husband, in his frustration, used to say he's the most creative work avoider I've ever seen.
And in the later years, the last few years, we looked at him and said, he works harder than any person we've ever seen. And so, God redeemed what we've made a lot of mistakes. We didn't know what we were doing. And he had a lot of more pain. He made a lot of bad choices, but God did a miracle for him, for us, and this Prayer for Prodigals Ministry that grew out of it.
[00:11:44] Tommy Thomas: If you were writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the CEO can bear, what would some of your chapter titles be?
[00:11:54] Judy Douglass: Oh, I don't like titles, so I'm not going to tell you that. Thinking up titles is one of the hardest things I do. I would say that it is important to be authentic, to really be the person that God has created you to be. And treat people the way they need to be treated. To believe they have value and that they can contribute well. To honor people for their work. To be kind and engage with them whenever you can. A lot of times before COVID and when Steve was still President, and I was at the office a lot. I used to just spend an afternoon going from desk to desk and talking with them and showing them that they were valued there and telling them how their contribution was really of great value and asking needs or prayer requests. And I wrote a blog post once called it's the people and I refrain from saying stupid. Because people think they're the ones that are important and people that God has sent to participate, to partner with you in the work he's given you. They're there.
[00:13:28] Judy Douglass: You can't do it without them. So don't think you can. Recognize the contributions that they make both in your own mind, but to them and to others as well.
[00:13:44] Tommy Thomas: I want to get you to respond to a couple of quotes. This is always a fun part of the podcast to me. I'll go with this first one from CS Lewis. Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pain. It's his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.
[00:14:09] Judy Douglass: That's fairly easy for me to answer because that's exactly what happened with our son. Without a doubt, the hardest, most painful part of this was all of those years trying to help him learn to be a person and a responsible one. But the pain that we experienced in that changed us a lot, helped us to learn to love and grace go further than strong words and anger or rejection in helping a person redeem.
And out of that has grown the Prayer for Prodigals. The Prayer for Prodigals Prayer Place on Facebook. A Facebook page of prayer for prodigals and every June 2nd a Prayer for Prodigals Worldwide Prodigal Prayer Day and we invite people to give us first names of someone they want prayed for and unless they ask us later to take the name off, we don’t.
[00:15:22] Judy Douglass: So it accumulates because who doesn't want people to pray for your loved one? Whoever it is, most often children or grandchildren, but also your spouse, or your brother, or sister, and so this year on June 2nd I was at my Grandson's graduation so I didn't participate as much, but people gather in small groups, or we do a zoom call kind of thing.
And we had the largest number that we know of praying, after I don't know how many years is up to, we have about 11,000 names that I'm halfway through praying, since I wasn't available on the day of prayer this year, I'm praying through it slowly myself and naming every person and bringing them before the Lord.
[00:16:11] Judy Douglass: So great pain that we went through, and yet God has brought very fruitful help to so many people through this opportunity.
[00:16:25] Tommy Thomas: Here's a new quote. I've not asked this to anyone yet. Beware of the shorn beard of reputation for it is hard to regrow.
[00:16:41] Judy Douglass: That goes with pride. I think it's also evident in an awful lot of people being, yeah, their reputation has been harmed by things that have come out. And it is hard. Some try and it works, but most of the time it doesn't work if they try to come back. And so, I just go back to Jesus saying that he is humble and that we should be humble like he is and so that'll probably save us a lot of trouble later if we walk in humility and not in pride.
[00:17:27] Tommy Thomas: The last one. I'm not called to be successful, but to be faithful. Mother Teresa.
[00:17:39] Judy Douglass: Yeah, I think I would agree with that. It's hard to say much more to that. I think, how are we faithful? We're faithful to become the people that we're made to be. We're not accidents. And if you look at Ephesians 2:10, it says he made each of them. In the Psalm 139, he says he made each one of us. He was there forming us.
So, it's no surprise that I'm not a rule follower. Maybe that wasn't one of his anyway. And it's no surprise that I don't have musical ability. But I can do words pretty well. And in Ephesians 2, he says, you are a work of art, a masterpiece designed for the good works that I've already prepared for you and so, God wants us to walk closely enough with him to discover those things, to be intentional, to discover them, and then to live them out. And do things I had to do, break an engagement, give up a dream, wait when I didn't want to wait, while God was doing work in me, and then he has to be faithful to what he's given us to do.
[00:18:59] Judy Douglass: That doesn't mean it won't change some because it will. But faithfulness is to be obedient and surrender to the Lord in a way that I can do what he wants me to do. And the outcomes are up to him. I'm not doing them to be known. I'm not doing them to get accolades. I'm doing them because this is the work of God, the good works that God has prepared for me to do.
And God loves faithful people. He loves others too.
[00:19:38] Tommy Thomas: If you could give a younger version of yourself, a piece of advice, what would it be?
[00:19:49] Judy Douglass: There's lots of little things, specifics, but I would say two words that have been key for me. One is to keep trusting God, even when hard things happen. Was I happy that my husband left two years ago? No. But I'm trusting that God knew what he was doing, that it was his time, and there were good reasons.
God did tell me, but I therefore was trusting that he would stay with me, which he said the night Steve died. I said, now what am I supposed to do? And God said, I'll be with you. I said, I know that, but what am I supposed to do? And he says, no, every step of the way, I will be with you. And He has. And then the other is the practice of giving thanks in everything has probably transformed me more than almost anything. Learning in the good things I can easily say thank you for, but in the hard things, little hard things, big hard things, confusion, misunderstandings, great pain. Thank you, Lord. Because I trust you and that's made all the difference for me.
[00:21:11] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anybody ever gave you?
[00:21:20] Judy Douglass: Just what I said, that was advice that I got from people, and learning to live it out. It's more important, and some people wouldn't agree, but a lot of people in leadership are trained to be leaders. I was never trained to be a leader. I just did what God wanted, and that's how He led me. So, for me, it has everything to do with my relationship with God. I let Him meet my needs and work in me. Give me comfort, give me courage, depending on what the need is. And yeah, the best advice I have is, oh, I'll tell you what the best advice is. This is one of Steve's famous ones. You want to know what God's plan for you is and what your job description is. Walk closely with God and do what He says.
If you want to know God’s plan for you, Steve would always say “Walk closely with God and do what He says”.
[00:22:22] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
When You Love a Prodigal: 90 Days of Grace for the Wilderness by Judy Douglas
Prayer for Prodigals Podcast
Prayer for Prodigals Facebook Page
Secrets of Success: God’s Lifelines by Judy Douglas
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
To book Judy for a speaking engagement or to learn more about her incredible life and ministry go to www.JudyDouglass.com.
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:24] Judy Douglass: Two people who've had the most impact on me. One would be Bill Bright because when I did the magazine, all of a sudden I was reporting to him and some other people as well because he didn't have time to really supervise and so those were sometimes tense times. Bill and I have one huge difference. Bill loves superlatives. Everybody was the greatest or the most talented or the best and that's the way he talked. I'm a journalist. Don't even believe superlatives are acceptable words, because nobody is the best or the greatest or anything.
And so Bill would write these flowery promoting things and I would get it and bring it back to what I thought was realism. And he would come back, and he'd say, no, you need to… And I would put a little bit more back, but not all of it, and we would go about five rounds before I didn't go back to him anymore.
I just decided we'd gotten it as far as I was willing to go and as much as he really needed. But that was challenging because we didn't always agree on things and yet he was always kind and gracious to me and positive and encouraging. But more than anything, he was trusting God.
++++++++++++
[00:01:53] Tommy Thomas: My guest today is Judy Douglass, a prominent figure within Cru, formerly known as Campus Crusade for Christ.
Throughout her career, she has held various roles within Cru and has become well known for her leadership and speaking. She served in positions such as staff member, mentor, and advocate for women in leadership within the organization. In addition to her work with Cru, Judy is a prolific writer, addressing topics related to faith, leadership, and personal growth.
These writings offer practical guidance, encouragement, and hope to individuals navigating various challenges in life, particularly in the context of family relationships and spiritual journeys. Judy, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:38] Judy Douglass: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm looking forward to it.
[00:02:41] Tommy Thomas: I've been looking forward to this. I was thinking back, I guess the first time I met you was probably ‘73 or ‘74. That was, before the turn of the century, huh?
[00:02:51] Judy Douglass: Definitely before the turn of the century. Yes, I was on staff then too.
[00:02:57] Tommy Thomas: I want to learn a little bit about your childhood. I know when I listen to a podcast and they start asking people those questions my ears perk up. So maybe take me back. What was it like growing up in your hometown and your family?
[00:03:11] Judy Douglass: It was like it is for most people who grow up in Texas.
[00:03:16] Tommy Thomas: Hot?
[00:03:16] Judy Douglass: Opinionated. My family helped settle the State of Texas on both my mother's and my father's side.
My mother's side, they came with Stephen F. Austin when he settled down near San Antonio. And on my father's side, it was after the war. And they moved to Dallas, which was just beginning to become a city. And so, I'm very Texan through and through, though I haven't lived there in a very long time, but my family is still there.
[00:03:49] Judy Douglass: I have three sisters, and we are still alive, and we get together every year or year and a half. When my mother died, we all agreed if we weren't intentional, we wouldn't see each other. So, we became intentional, and we do that. My father was a doctor. My mother had been a nurse, basically.
There was this expectation that you can do anything, you'll be supported and encouraged, and that was true.
[00:04:23] Tommy Thomas: So, what did you want to be when you grew up coming out of a medical family?
[00:04:33] Judy Douglass: I really don't like anything medical very much. From the time I was eight years old, I wanted to be a writer. I started a novel when I was eight and it was about my favorite topic, horses. And so, I loved horses, and I loved writing and they started to go together at a young age. I still have the manuscript of the chapter I wrote of my only novel ever.
[00:04:59] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like for you? Did that manifest itself in high school? Those two loves?
[00:05:05] Judy Douglass: They did. My high school was a very high-level school. And so, there were lots of smart kids. I didn't care for the social structure, but I loved the fact that I got a great education.
Probably my biggest opportunity came when I studied journalism for a year, and the journalism teacher saw real hope in me, I think. And so, she encouraged me to work on the school paper, and she did things like she took an article I'd written for the paper and sent it into the Texas High School Press Association writing contest, and it was a feature, and I won for the whole state of Texas.
[00:05:57] Judy Douglass: I didn't even know I was entered, but that was encouraging that I could do that, and that she thought I had enough potential that she would enter that for me without even telling me. So that was really a good thing. The horses, I had this, my father wasn't about to buy me a horse. He refused many times since I asked him many times, but he had a doctor, friend, with a horse and no one to ride it.
And so they got together and I got a horse and I rode that horse for a number of years. At first, just fun with my friends, but then he said, she's a saddle horse. She's really a good horse. So, he wanted her trained. So, we went over to the training state of stable where I learned to write English and do some jumping and learned all the more proper things than just enjoying riding a horse.
[00:06:53] Judy Douglass: And so that was maybe one of the happiest days of my life when my father says, I have a horse for you. It was a great experience, and I loved it and it paid off later.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:05] Tommy Thomas: My next question was going to be, what are people always surprised to find out about you? But what I would imagine, I certainly didn't know the horse story. Is there anything else that people might be surprised to know that might know you or would call you a friend? What might they not know?
[00:07:21] Judy Douglass: Probably a couple of things that would surprise them because I'm very much a strong advocate for what I care about. They might not know that I'm really a soft-hearted pushover and I'm interested in making sure people thrive than even making sure things happen the way I want.
And the other thing that always seems to surprise them, not anyone in my family, but them, is I'm not a rule follower very well. I know rules are needed. And I know it is required, but basically when I see rules, I look at what's their objective and then it's how can I fulfill that objective, maybe keeping the rules and maybe not.
[00:08:09] Tommy Thomas: So, you've served a long time with Cru. Anytime I interview somebody that's been with an organization a long time, I ask them when you joined, did you think it would be a career?
[00:08:21] Judy Douglass: It didn't surprise me, but because my parents were not happy that I was joining Campus Crusade for Christ, I said, it's just a two-year commitment because that's all we were signing up for.
But in my mind, it probably was longer, but I sure didn't know it was going to be the 60 years that I've been part of the Cru staff.
[00:08:44] Tommy Thomas: Oh, so when I met you, I think you were managing one of our magazines. And I suppose you had a staff reporting to you. What do you remember about that first management experience?
[00:08:56] Judy Douglass: Oh, my goodness. I remember, one, that I was over my head, because what happened was, I went out there and I was planning to go on campus. When I decided to join the staff, I had to give up two important things. I was engaged to a young man I'd gone with all through college. And he wasn't interested at all in being a part of Cru.
And, I said, Lord, when are you going to tell him? And God said, if you marry him, you won't be able to do what I want you to do. And, okay, that was something I wanted. I told the Lord when I met him that I would choose your way. And so that, I choose your way, was my pattern through life.
[00:09:42] Judy Douglass: And, so I said, okay. But I was also giving up my dream to become a writer and to maybe eventually be a magazine editor. But when I got to the staff conference, Bill Bright called me into his office and he said, we have this magazine we started to use on the campuses, to help staff talk to students about topics.
We wondered if instead of going to one campus, you would come to headquarters and do this magazine for all the campuses. And I'm like, what? Yes. So, God gave me my dream back just right away. The other one came later.
[00:10:27] Tommy Thomas: Was that the Collegiate, I'm trying to think, was that the Collegiate Challenge?
[00:10:31] Judy Douglass: That was the Collegiate Challenge. And I did that for several years with the whole editorial staff and then their man named Robert was the designer and he was far more knowledgeable than I was. And what was interesting was that we and Campus Life Magazine from Youth for Christ at the same time, we're looking at most Christian magazines, which were tiny print little pictures.
Yeah. Just not even readable. And not certainly enticing. And I said, we got to do something. And Bob was really creative. And we ended up making a magazine that when we took it to the Evangelical Press Association convention and entered their contest, we won Periodical of The Year of all the categories, because they'd never seen a magazine like it.
[00:11:27] Judy Douglass: And it was full of color, and it was stories, and it was just a totally different thing, but that was that then we decided to start what became the Worldwide Challenge because we realized that staff were having a hard time convincing their parents that they should join this organization that parent’s thought was a cult and also help people, donors and those parents and anyone else understand what it meant to know and walk with God.
And the things we were teaching the students, lay people by then, we wanted others to hear. And so, we said, and this is one of the biggest things, hardest things I ever did was we said, okay, we'll do this magazine. Basically, I was the editor, and we had about six journalism school graduates.
[00:12:23] Judy Douglass: We were not very old and not even very old in the Lord. Not really strong. We had no knowledge of what went on in the churches out there. And so, we're going to do a magazine that's going to represent our ministry. And we were really over our heads, but God was so good. We had no subscribers.
We went to our staff and talked them into giving it to their donors. And so we had to start it off. We had 35,000 subscribers because the staff did that. Our theme for our campaign was tell your supporters you love them 12 times a year. And so it was unbelievably wonderful. God gave us wisdom on how to put together a team and I just marveled at what we were able to do and how God used it in people's lives.
[00:13:18] Judy Douglass: And it only ended recently because of the cost of postage and the use of net and that there were other ways to communicate, but when I look back at my years on staff, that's one of my main highlights is getting to start the worldwide challenge and see it touch so many lives.
[00:13:40] Tommy Thomas: Now was my friend Chuck McDonald on your team? He and I joined the staff about the same time.
[00:13:46] Judy Douglass: Chuck McDonald was on my team.
[00:13:48] Tommy Thomas: And he was a University of Missouri J School graduate, if I remember.
[00:13:53] Judy Douglass: Which at that time was considered the best.
++++++++++++++++
[00:13:55] Tommy Thomas: So, let's go to mentors. Someone in your life who has brought you along on this journey.
The two people who had the greatest impact on my life were Bill Bright and Steve Douglass
[00:14:06] Judy Douglass: Two people who've had the most impact on me. One would be Bill Bright because when I did the magazine all of a sudden I was reporting to him and some other people as well because he didn't have time to really supervise, but I did a lot of work with him planning the magazine, editing the magazine, helping him write books, helping him write the first five transferable concepts.
And so those were sometimes tense times. Bill and I have one huge difference. Bill loves superlatives. Everybody was the greatest or the most talented or the best and that's the way he talked. I'm a journalist. Don't even believe superlatives are acceptable words, because nobody is the best or the greatest or anything.
[00:15:02] Judy Douglass: And so, Bill would write these flowery promoting things, and I would get it and bring it back to what I thought was realism. And he would come back, and he'd say, no, and I would put a little bit more back, but not all of it. And we would go about five rounds before I didn't go back to him anymore.
I just decided we'd gotten it as far as I was willing to go and as much as he really needed. But that was challenging because we didn't always agree on things and yet he was always kind and gracious to me and positive and encouraging. But more than anything, he was trusting God. I've known a lot of people who trusted God and I've read many but knew Bill very well.
[00:15:58] Judy Douglass: And he trusted God more than almost more than anyone I'd ever seen. And that was a huge thing in teaching me to walk with God on a consistent basis and believe that he would lead me and give me what I needed before me. So, he was probably at that time the biggest influence spiritually in my life, the biggest mentor.
The other person I would mention is Steve Douglas. Steve and I dated for five years before we got married. But we were friends and then we were dating, and it was a long time. Sometimes everybody said, give up on him. And I said, yeah. And, so I said, Lord, I'm done.
[00:16:48] Judy Douglass: And the Lord said, no, wait, don’t give up. Don't quit. And so, it took five years before Steve came to a census. But the point I want to make is he was concerned that his parents had not had a good marriage. His father was an alcoholic, and he just was afraid he had too much of his father in him, which, not true, really, except for smart.
He was afraid he wouldn't be a good husband as opposed to being so afraid of marriage. And he loved me. And so, from him, I learned a lot of principles of managing and leading because that's what he did. He went to Harvard. And then he came to Cru to reorganize it, which I didn't appreciate.
[00:17:36] Judy Douglass: I had to move out of the president's office. But he spiritually just loved the Lord and sought him and wanted what God had for him. And then we were married for 47 years until God took him home two years ago. So just watching him live his life, lead the ministry in the 20 years he served as President.
And I just learned how to work with people. He was maybe the kindest person I'd ever met. Just always responsive to people. Responsive to those who worked for him lifting them up. One of the girls that traveled with me, we were on a trip together with Steve and his assistant and we were coming home from a long international trip.
And so we're all tired and she's dropping us off at our house and he says, what can I pray for you? And she says, oh, I've got a chair that's falling apart and I just need somebody to help me put it together, so pray for that.
[00:18:47] Judy Douglass: He's knocking on her door with his tools in his hand and he fixed her chair and she's never forgotten it. The president, tired from a long trip, hurt her knee and went to meet it. And that would be what he was like. He was amazing with our children. He coached soccer for our older daughter for 12 years, I think maybe it was only 11, but because he wanted to be with her. Because he's naturally a coach, by the way, I've always thought if he weren't leading this ministry, he would be a coach somewhere. Also, he loved the girls that were on the soccer team. Before every game, he called each one to tell her what she would be expecting to do the next day, and his confidence that she would do a good job.
[00:19:38] Judy Douglass: And he also did it so he could have opportunities to tell people about Jesus. And, he was very intentional. I'll tell you one other thing he did. I'm nice to people. I really am, but I don't go out of my way all the time. And so in our neighborhood, he would go walk in the morning and to get exercise. He'd listen to scripture on the way out and then he would pray on the way back. He would look for opportunities to meet the neighbors and talk to them. And for several years, until his body was really not working as well, he picked up trash in our neighborhood and the whole neighborhood knew what he did.
[00:20:27] Judy Douglass: They didn't know who he was necessarily, but they knew, oh, he's the man who picks up the trash. I have great pictures of him. So, he's seeing, cause it's usually still dark and his pictures, his paper wrapper and a thing that holds three paper, plastic bags. So, he can put the trash in it.
[00:20:49] Tommy Thomas: Wow.
[00:20:49] Judy Douglass: It was amazing. I learned a lot from both of those two men. There were others, but you asked for the most.
[00:20:56] Tommy Thomas: You've probably already answered this question, but maybe not - relative to team leadership, what's the most ambitious project you've ever undertaken? And how did you get your team to rally around it?
[00:21:11] Judy Douglass: Two. Okay. One was starting the Worldwide Challenge. And I already basically explained, none of us really were equipped to do that job. They entered into it, and we learned and grew together, and the exciting thing is I can name one thing after another that those people are now doing so that they learned well, I learned well, we all worked together, the magazine benefited staff and their donors, and their parents and it was amazing and I am grateful.
The biggest thing that I ever did was the Global Women's Leadership Forum. No, actually, the biggest thing that I did was adopt a boy, but that's another story. The Global Women's Leadership Forum, because I'd always been able to do things that I thought I could do, and others apparently thought I could.
[00:22:13] Judy Douglass: I looked around a lot and noticed that again, I didn't come from an evangelical Christian background, so I didn't know any of the rules. I just saw, where are the women leading? And so, I just had it that I should see what I could do about it. I first did study and learn some things and when Steve became the U.S. Director, I suddenly had a little more beyond the magazine that was different, and I wasn't doing the magazine because I had two children by then and so I started writing to all of our mothers, encouraging them that God could still use them, even if they've got 5 children at home.
[00:23:06] Judy Douglass: There were ways that the ministry could benefit from what they had to offer. And so, I wrote a book called What Can a Mother Do? And it's finding significance at home and beyond. It's still mostly a really good book, things have changed, but as my kids got older and I had a team of people, I didn't have to work all the time.
They did a lot of the work, but I began to know a lot of the other women on the field and all of the women in any leadership were called senior women, as opposed to a real title so I just got to know some and grew and studied and got bold. And when Steve became President, he was willing to stand behind me.
[00:23:57] Judy Douglass: And we said, we're going to have a global conference to bring together women who have shown potential to lead and help them get started at it. And we called it the global women's leadership forum. And in 2004, so we just celebrated 20 years since this happened. We brought about 400 staff women from all over the world together, for a week in Thailand.
And the criteria were potential for leadership or maybe even given some leadership opportunities, but it was not you send whoever the next director's wife unless she shows the potential and we brought them together and we started out and we said your leaders and they all last sticker.
[00:24:53] Judy Douglass: And we said no really and we're going to help you start. So, we did a week of training. Some of it was spiritual. We had a wonderful woman, who at 57 left the mission field with her husband and went to seminary and became a professor at Gordon Conwell. And so she came and did our devotions for us.
[00:25:14] Judy Douglass: And Andrea Buczynski, whom I know you've interviewed, was just appointed Global Director of Leadership Development. It took three years for me to convince my husband to tell the board that yes, she would be the Vice President of Global Leadership Development because that's what the previous person’s title was.
And we weren't nearly as tight and hard to get through as some places are. Anyway, we taught them important skills like leading and bringing a team together and helping people to evaluate themselves and their coworkers and see where they can grow. But we also taught them how to write and how to speak.
[00:26:03] Judy Douglass: Everything's just beginning. And how to raise funds, because in Cru, if you want to do stuff, and so they had a wonderful time. We had a fun time with them. They went and rode elephants and things like that. But it was incredible. And all of us, and this is true, I've heard it over and over, had this sense that they were in a holy place.
We walked around in this hotel in Chiang Mai, and we could sense God just smiling at his daughters who were believing that they could be more in the kingdom than they thought. And it took a long time to raise the money. I raised the money for it. And to pull together the team that could do it. And when it was almost, when we were just a few months out from doing it, most of the team that was planning it said, this is too big.
[00:27:01] Judy Douglass: This is too much. This is going to fail. And then we're going to be embarrassed and it's going to set us back, not move us. And so, the small group of us that were leading it went and talked and prayed and came back and said, God gave us this assignment and we have to do it. And nobody would object as it turned out.
It was wonderful that our Director in Switzerland had three women at the conference. They had quotas for their number of staff, and he wrote to me afterwards. He said, if you're going to do things that make anybody else like these three women are now, I'll send anybody because I've never seen such transformation in somebody.
[00:27:49] Judy Douglass: And so, it was just believing in them and then beginning to equip them. And then the last thing I'll mention is we said, and if you want to go back to your country or your ministry and begin to start something to train some more people, we have a group of us and various ones of us will come to you and do training. I think we did 40 training sessions in the next two years and right now we have maybe only three global vice presidents who are women, and very capable women. And so that's what drives me more than anything, is to see people become who God made them and do what God has for them. That vision is what guides me all the time.
(If you are reading the transcript, note that we will continue this conversation with Judy next week)
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
When You Love a Prodigal: 90 Days of Grace for the Wilderness by Judy Douglas
Secrets of Success: God’s Lifelines by Judy Douglas
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Vonna Laue: One of the indicators for nonprofits that anyone who hears me speak knows that I'm always going to harp on a little bit, and that is available cash. Not just cash, because you can look at the balance sheet and see, wow, we've got $700,000 in cash. If that's what the board looks at and starts making decisions based on, you could find yourself in trouble because the available cash that I'm talking about takes that cash number, but then it subtracts two things out of there.
[00:00:33] Vonna Laue: It subtracts the things that we're going to pay this week. So maybe we've got payroll coming up this week and we've got a bunch of accounts we're going to pay. I'm going to take that out of there. And I'm also going to take out any temporarily restricted funds that have been given by donors for a specific purpose.
If those amounts are held in that cash number, I'm going to back those out. If you back out those two things, that $700,000 might be $200,000. And that board and those leaders are going to make significantly different decisions based on $700,000 versus $200,000. Right? That's a financial metric.
++++++++++++++++
[00:01:10] Tommy Thomas: You and I have a mutual friend, Alec Hill, former President of InterVarsity. And he wrote of some of the pain and suffering he experienced while being the President of Intervarsity. And he writes, if we pause and reflect long enough, pain is a great teacher. Our character can be transformed more through a day of suffering than a month of study.
As I think about your book that's coming out here in a couple of weeks, I would imagine that played into the writing of the book.
[00:01:39] Vonna Laue: You are absolutely correct. So, the book is Glad I Didn't Know, and then it's subtitled Lessons Learned Through Life's Challenges and Unexpected Blessings, so it absolutely does play into that.
The premise of the book is that there are a lot of difficult things that we go through that if we'd known in advance, we would have done everything we could to avoid those, but if we had avoided those, we'd have missed out on what God had planned for us and the lessons that we learned as a result of it.
[00:02:12] Vonna Laue: The flip side of that is also the unexpected blessings. And when I look at things like serving on the World Vision Board, if someone had told me in advance, you're going to be on the World Vision Board. I'd have thought, okay, I need this education and I need this experience and I need to network with this person, and I'd have totally messed it up.
But I just faithfully follow one thing to the next. And so would totally agree with Alec there. And I'm glad I don't know a lot of the things that I'm going to go through. And each time we go through something, it makes it a little bit easier the next time to look back on the faithfulness of God and realize, okay, we're going to come out the other side of this and there will be blessings as a result of it, even though it's a challenge at the time.
[00:03:01] Tommy Thomas: What lesson did you learn from writing this book? A real practical question.
[00:03:07] Vonna Laue: Yeah. One of the things that just in the process that I learned initially, I had chapters for the whole book, and I was just going to write their life stories. And then in some discussions and some just careful consideration, I realized if I did that, it would be really easy for a reader to say, oh, that's nice for that person and dismiss it.
And the applicability that it had to their lives. And so, within the book, there are 16 other contributors that all contributed a story of their life that they were glad they didn't know. And so, the encouragement there and just the lesson was if we're willing to be honest with ourselves and honest with those around us, we've all got those stories and in sharing them, there is a blessing to be had both by the giver and the receiver.
[00:04:09] Vonna Laue: Tommy, I had a number of people that wrote chapters that when they submitted them said something like, I needed to do that. Or it was a blessing to me to go through this, and there were a few people that I had ideas of the stories that they would contribute because I knew specific things about their life.
But all of them, I just asked them to do a story. And many of the ones that I thought the story they would do was not the story. They actually contributed. And so fun to see, just how God's orchestrated that.
[00:04:45] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior trait that you've seen that can derail a leader's career?
[00:04:54] Vonna Laue: I'm going to look at, especially those who have been leading for a long time. A few years ago, I was pondering a few of the leaders that had not finished well. And, you get, I think you use the word distinguished when you introduced me and I translated that to experienced or old, one of the two, some length of time and so as I think about that, it really hit home.
Partially because of the people and the disappointment that I had in the situation, but partially because I realized I'm not in the first half of my career. And so, I want to make sure that I do what I can to finish well. And so back to your question. One of the things that really came out to me was the idea of having people speak truth into your life.
The more experience we gain in leadership, the scarcer it becomes to have people who will candidly share the truth with us. With time, leaders tend to surround themselves with fewer people who are ready to speak honestly and openly with them.
[00:05:51] Vonna Laue: And the longer we lead, the fewer people I find that leaders have around them that are willing to speak truth into them. We talk about being put on a pedestal. That can happen in a number of different ways. It doesn't mean we're famous. Doesn't mean we have all the glory that some of the people you would think of might have.
It can happen to any leader, but we rise up far enough in our career or our organization that we just don't have as many close confidants around us that will challenge us. That will speak truth. And I think that when that happens is when people are more likely to not finish well.
[00:06:38] Tommy Thomas: I'm sure. Ross Hoskins at One Hope, he says, surround yourself with people who know you better than yourself and will tell you the truth out of love. This is how we grow.
[00:06:49] Vonna Laue: Amen. He just perfectly summarized what I would agree with. Perfectly.
[00:06:57] Tommy Thomas: So, if you were going to write another book and this book was going to be about the burdens of leadership that only the president or the CEO can bear, what would be some of your chapter headings?
[00:07:10] Vonna Laue: Have to think about that one a little bit……Chapter headings?
[00:07:18] Tommy Thomas: Or topics that you think have to be talked about.
[00:07:22] Vonna Laue: Yep. I think the topics definitely are similar to what was just said, choosing people that are extremely accomplished to be around you. We talk about having smarter people than you. I'm a big fan of that. I would also say working in a team. We are not as good by ourselves as we are with a team around us.
And so, when you're looking at that key leadership position, you're only as good as the team that is around you. I think also you've got to have that personal and spiritual aspect to it. So encouraging leaders, I often find, and as I speak on personal leadership, when I'm at my busiest, the two things that are easiest for me to give up are my workout and my devotion time.
The two things I need most when I'm busiest are my workout and my devotion time
[00:08:19] Vonna Laue: The two things I need most when I'm busiest are my workout and my devotion time. And so reminding leaders that you're only as good as you are healthy. That’s really important and that's, in a number of different way,s that health spiritually that health physically and the health relationally, you know that you don't sacrifice those relationships that are closest to you because you don't get the time back.
We often say I'll do that when this project is over. I'll do that when this season is over. And I think all of the people listening to this podcast probably realize there is no normal, right? We used to say when things get back to normal, I'll do this. And that hectic life that we live as Americans, I think is just normal.
And so those are a few of the keys that I think are so crucial for leaders.
[00:09:18] Tommy Thomas: I remember when I interviewed Rich Stearns and I'm not going to remember the person's name, but he was talking about his career at Parker Brothers, and he said that there was one of the people in the family that didn't know anything at all about toys, but he knew how to hire a team and that was what made the success of Parker Brothers was this man's ability to bring people onto the team that could lead.
[00:09:41] Vonna Laue: I would fully agree with that. I mentioned that I usually am doing a lot of different things. So right now, I'm serving as the COO and CFO of an organization and director of internal audit for another one and doing some audit and advisory with a third and some projects, all of that. But the way that works is the teams that are established in each of those places.
Within the team, the mission’s organization where I serve, the director of global services role that I have, that's like the COO role, that has operations and finance and personnel and IT and security, that's a lot just in and of itself, but I have four phenomenal directors. That they need encouragement.
[00:10:31] Vonna Laue: They need a champion, and they need a sounding board. And as long as I can provide those things, they will do their roles far better than I ever could. In fact, I often say when you hire, you better keep them happy and keep them around because you probably can't do their job.
+++++++++++++++
[00:10:50] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard to get at a nonprofit organization's health, what would be some of your dials?
[00:10:57] Vonna Laue: Oh, I love dashboards. You just spoke one of my love languages there. So, one of the things that I think is key to a dashboard is that I'm a CPA, so it has to have some financial indicators on it, right?
[00:11:11] Tommy Thomas: Absolutely.
[00:11:13] Vonna Laue: You have to have those. And the basic ones, you're going to have some things like where you are versus, actual.
And you're gonna do some trend analysis in that a little bit, I say, this way in a church. Everybody knows it's December. What season of the year is the lowest attendance and the lowest giving season? Always summer, right? And how do we know that? It's because of trends. And so, trend information can be really helpful. So, I think that a dashboard should include trends.
One of the indicators for nonprofits that anyone who hears me speak knows that I'm always going to harp on a little bit, and that is available cash.
[00:12:08] Vonna Laue: So not just cash, because you can look at the balance sheet and see, wow, we've got $700,000 cash. If that's what the board looks at and starts making decisions based on, you could find yourself in trouble because the available cash that I'm talking about takes that cash number, but then it subtracts two things out of there.
It subtracts the things that we're going to pay this week. So maybe we've got payroll coming up this week and we've got a bunch of accounts we're going to pay. I'm going to take that out of there. And I'm also going to take out any temporarily restricted funds that have been given by donors for a specific purpose.
[00:12:46] Vonna Laue: If those amounts are held in that cash number, I'm going to back those out. If you back out those two things, that $700,000 might be $200,000. And that board and those leaders are going to make significantly different decisions based on $700,000 versus $200,000. Right? That's a financial metric. But as far as dashboards as a whole, my real encouragement there is to look at what your key drivers are.
So, look at the financial pieces that you need to monitor, but also look at your non-financial and make sure that they are included in that dashboard as well. Maybe it's your turnover percentage.
Maybe it's your involvement in X program. How many meals are we feeding? How many beds have we provided depending on what your program is, but that dashboard report ought to tie to whatever your strategic plan is, so the strategic things that you're looking at. Those are the guideposts of that dashboard that you're going to be monitoring to make sure that your strategic plan is being fulfilled.
[00:14:00] Tommy Thomas: On a little bit lighter note, but still probably following the same track. If you were a judge on a non-profit version of the Shark Tank and people were coming to you for early-stage investments, what questions would you need solid answers to before you would open your checkbook?
[00:14:18] Vonna Laue: I'm always going to want to know what their budgeting process is. Again, you’re asking an accountant.
I want to understand that. I want to understand who they've vetted this with. What are the focus groups that you've talked to? Who are the mentors or coaches that have processed this with you? What are your strengths? And where you don't have strengths, who are the people that you have identified and already discussed with that are going to come around you to shore up those weaknesses, if you will.
So those are a few of the things that I want to make sure that this is well thought out and it's not just the flavor of the week.
[00:15:00] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to board service for a few minutes. So, you're now the chairman of the World Vision Board, or the chairperson, I guess I should say. Give us some highlights of what you've learned about the Chairman's role.
I know you watched Joan for several years and watched her successes, and I'm sure lack of on some days. What have you learned there?
[00:15:22] Vonna Laue: I will tell you, Tommy, when they asked me if I would consider taking the chair role, the first thing I said was, did you ask this individual? And I named someone from the Board, and they said, yes.
And he serves on a couple of large for-profit boards and doesn't have the time and capacity. And I said, okay, as long as you've shown the discernment that you asked him first, we're good. But then I actually went to that individual and I said, if I do this, will you coach me? Would you be willing to debrief with me after the meetings?
[00:16:01] Vonna Laue: And honestly, we just finished up meetings on Tuesday this week. And he and I have a call scheduled for Monday. And he said I'd love to do that. He graciously agreed. And so that, to me, was important. Because I didn't know the role. I had served on the board, but that role is different.
And so, the relationship between the Board Chair and the CEO is obviously the most critical. We have a pretty, no, we have a very sophisticated board. I'm odd by who God has assembled in that room. And so, when I first came into it, I would say I was just trying not to embarrass myself, but they are such a gracious group of people.
"To run an effective Board Meeting, I review agendas and pre-reads in advance, addressing my questions beforehand so meeting time is focused on others' concerns."
[00:16:51] Vonna Laue: And it's important to me that the meetings are well run. And that means I want to see the agendas in advance and speak into those. I want to see the pre reads in advance and have gone through all of those so that if I have questions, I can answer them. I'm not asking those questions during the meeting that's reserved for others, and that those may be questions that others would have.
So, let's get those addressed in the pre reads or be prepared. So, I think that the preparation that goes into the time before the meetings is critical.
++++++++++++++=
[00:17:26] Tommy Thomas: So, here's a couple of quotes about boards and board chairs. And one is the Chair and the CEO must learn to dance together. And neither can stray very far from each other's gaze or proceed independently.
[00:17:42] Vonna Laue: Yeah, I would agree with that. Those are two key roles in the organization. And you have to, I'll use the same analogy I used before. You better be pulling in the same direction. The Board Chair has a responsibility to be the voice on behalf of the Board, and so I feel like that's an important responsibility that it's not Vonna's opinion that I take into there.
I seek wise counsel from my board and want to make sure that when I'm having conversations with my CEO, that either the board is informed about those things or that, I'm able to speak on their behalf. But on the day-to-day interactions, if you will, or week to week, those two leaders better be aligned.
[00:18:30] Tommy Thomas: Another one, Dr. Rebecca Basinger. Governing boards are charged with safeguarding an institution's ability to fulfill its mission with economic vitality. To this I add, responsibility for tending to the soul of the institution.
[00:18:50] Vonna Laue: In an institution like World Vision, the soul of that organization to me is very critical. And it's interesting. I chair the World Vision U. S. Board. I have the privilege of also sitting on the World Vision International Board because we are a federated model and there are World Vision offices around the world and Christ at the center is one of them. It's our foremost principle by which we operate. And, if that's not lived out in the board, the tone at the top is critical for everything. And so, I would agree that the soul of the organization starts with tone at the top.
[00:19:32] Tommy Thomas: So, it's been my experience that the good news about having successful executives on the board is they're used to getting things done.
The flip side is that they might have a hard time taking off their CEO hat and putting on their board member hat at a board meeting. Have you experienced that?
[00:19:53] Vonna Laue: To the credit of the current board that I have at World Vision US, I would say I don't struggle with that there.
There is a spirit of collaboration by God's grace that exists within there. And so, people are willing to share their experiences and their opinions, but they're not sold on them. They're very open. Have I experienced it in other boards? Absolutely. And one of the challenges that I see in the nonprofit sector, Tommy, is that there are experienced board members that come in with for profit expertise.
[00:20:32] Vonna Laue: Which, 90 percent of the time, is fantastic. 10 percent of the time can be challenging because there are unique things. I say if you don't believe there are uniquenesses, go ask the local Ford dealership how many contributions they've received this month. You know what I mean? They don't get any of those, right.
There are some unique things. There are some unique laws and regulations that either do apply specifically or specifically don't apply. And so in some board settings, I've seen where for profit leaders have a hard time taking off that hat and being able to understand the nuances that are involved in a nonprofit organization, but really, it comes down to the spirit of humility and service.
[00:21:21] Vonna Laue: And one of the things that when you contacted me first, I believe that you couched it this way and said, would you be willing to be considered for board service at World Vision? And I tell people that I responded to you, I'm willing to be considered, let me pray about it. And that I said, that's not trying to buy time or push you off. I legitimately meant that because I think that you have to be passionate about a ministry or a nonprofit board that you're going to serve on. And if you don't have that passion for that particular organization, then you find another one that you can be, because I think that passion is really important in the boardroom.
[00:22:07] Tommy Thomas: You and I are old enough to remember the Enron crisis and of course much has been written about it.
One writer said that certainly part of the problem was that the board didn't dig deep enough into the financial situation at Enron. How do you ensure that your board members are asking the right questions? Of course, you've been a CPA, that might be an easier thing than another board chair, but I think that is critical.
[00:22:35] Vonna Laue: It is, and there are so many things that we have to balance in board member selection. We want to balance Equity and Diversity. We want to balance, within that age. I just encouraged us earlier to consider younger board members and what they can contribute. One of the considerations is what is the expertise that they bring to the board and what skill sets do we need on the board?
And the reason for that is to ask those right questions. If I've got an audit committee and I don't have anyone that understands audit and finance, that's problematic. And there may be some that just said, of course I can tell you I have presented to a number of audit and finance committees in my career.
[00:23:27] Vonna Laue: That they didn't have an auditor finance expert in that entire committee. In this day and age, we're looking at who has digital experience, who has cybersecurity, or IT experience, and it changes over time. The needs of the board today are different from the needs of the board 10 or 20 years ago.
So that's a challenge to us individually as board members to continue growing and learning. But it's also a challenge to us to make sure that we're recruiting the right board members. So, to your point, you've got people in there that can ask the questions of, is this a good investment? Is there a legal liability associated with this?
[00:24:10] Vonna Laue: Have we got the right protections in place? What's the end result of this potentially going to be? We don't make a short-sighted decision that we're looking at the long-term impact. What are the reputational impacts of these? We have two roles on the World Vision U. S. board that are assigned at every board meeting.
And one of those is the keeper of the core documents. So that person is responsible throughout the discussions to be considering how that discussion or that particular agenda item is tied to our core documents, if there's any implications, and one of them is the responsible skeptic, and that is a formal role that person is assigned in those board meetings, and as we're having discussion, we want somebody to be identified that will challenge and say, wait a minute, back up.
[00:25:01] Vonna Laue: Let's not get into group think here. What about, and that they know that they're not just putting their opinion in their hat that they've got this particular role. So, I think those two roles have been really helpful in our setting for our board.
[00:25:15] Tommy Thomas: I spoke to Dr. Linda Livingstone at Baylor. I was asking her about this. I didn't use the word responsible skeptic. I guess I had another phrase, but she said, they usually show up. You don't have to appoint them.
[00:25:28] Vonna Laue: I heard that. I heard it when she said that. And I laughed and I thought, that's a healthy board actually, for the most part, because Proverbs talks about iron sharpens iron, and that is really helpful if people are willing to speak up. Oftentimes, we’re Christian nice and we don't want to challenge each other and we need to be able to speak up and make sure that all of the facts, all of the considerations are on the table.
[00:25:58] Tommy Thomas: I sense that probably the role or the function of risk management has increased for a board over the last decade or two. Am I making a good observation or not?
[00:26:13] Vonna Laue: The only thing I would say is that might be the understatement of the year, potentially. Absolutely. The risks that we face and maybe I'm going to oversimplify this, but I think, they used to be known, right?
You've got trip hazards. That's a physical risk. You've got the risk of fraud. You put controls in place. Those were known risks. What we face now, to me, are a lot of the unknown risks. What's happening in the cyber world? What’s happening with opinions? Reputational risk has increased so significantly, and because it's so easy, and I'll be careful to say this is Vonna's opinion, so please don't ascribe this to any organization that I represent, but, because it's so easy on social media and other media, avenues to state an opinion, and it becomes a perceived fact.
[00:27:12] Vonna Laue: Thank you. And for an organization to then have to battle something, that’s a reputational risk that we have to consider. And yet we can't control, which is a difficult place to be.
[00:27:26] Tommy Thomas: Do y'all have a time in each board meeting where you talk about external threats or is that relegated to your CEO to bring those to the board? How does that work?
[00:27:38] Vonna Laue: Practically? Many of the organizations that I'm associated with have an enterprise risk management or a risk assessment process, and there are people within the organization that are specifically identified that are responsible for that. Not that they're responsible for the risks, but they're responsible to make sure that it's updated.
The way that I tend to do it with some organizations is, brainstorm across the organization, pulling together leaders from the board. Leaders from different ministries or departments, people in different functional departments, IT, HR, finance, and just let them brainstorm. What are all the risks?
[00:28:23] Vonna Laue: I've done this a few times and it's pretty common that you end up with 600-700 risks that are identified and then categorizing those into whatever categories are helpful for you. But things like regulatory, legal, physical, financial, reputational, operational risks. And then once you do that, you can identify what's the likelihood this would happen.
And if it did happen, what would the impact be? So low, moderate and high. And that helps you distinguish, like, how significant are these risks? And when you've got them categorized like that, it stands out, like who the owner of that is, right? Those legal risks are either an in-house or an outsourced general counsel, your physical risks might be the facilities people, whoever, but having an owner for those.
High and moderate risks should be mitigated through measures such as insurance, internal controls, or policies. High risks, in particular, should be continuously monitored by leaders and the board, to ensure they are well understood and managed effectively.
[00:29:16] Vonna Laue: The high and moderate risks ought to have some mitigating measures in place, whether it's insurance or internal controls or policies. And to me, the high risks should always be in front of the leaders and the board. Usually that's an annual process that they would be taking a look at that to make sure that we understand these risks.
We're aware of them because we're responsible for them and we also are aware of the mitigating controls that management has put in place and those seem reasonable. So, I don't necessarily feel like at every meeting, sometimes there are committees. World Vision International, I serve on the audit and risk committee.
[00:29:59] Vonna Laue: We have it as a specific component of that committee. So every one of our committee meetings, there is a risk component to that we are looking at. But definitely on an annual basis, that ought to be a discussion that boards are having regardless of the size of the organization.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:30:15] Tommy Thomas: This could probably be a whole podcast, but maybe we'll probably limit it. But I would be remiss if I didn't ask an artificial intelligence question. I guess that could fall under risk. It could fall under opportunity. Your thoughts as you sit at 50,000 feet looking down on the nonprofit sector, what's going to happen in the coming years that we need to be aware of?
[00:30:41] Vonna Laue: I think it's all of the above. It's opportunity. It's risk. I mentioned earlier that boards are encountering different things now than they did 10 years ago, and they have to be learning individually. And as a board, this is a perfect example of that. We, as board members, have to be learning.
We have to adjust to and understand this new technology. Actually, our board had the privilege of sitting in an hour-long session this past week with an AI expert. I think we all walked out of there a little terrified and a little concerned about what this looks like. And that's a great place to be, right?
[00:31:25] Vonna Laue: Because it means we know that we've got to lean in. I remember a number of years ago, I think it was about 2006, Walt Wilson, who started Global Media Outreach, he had been one of the initial executives at Apple, and I remember sitting with Walt at that time, and he said, the day will come where you just use apps for everything.
And I was like, what's an app? And he's like oh, you'll just push a button. And then it'll bring up all the information for that company. And you'll do everything on this app. And I don't know Walt's age exactly, but I would say he was probably in his early seventies at that time. And I was like, that's crazy.
[00:32:10] Vonna Laue: And then I realized, now, he was absolutely correct. And he had the foresight to see that. And I tend to believe that's where we will be with AI. This is here. We better figure out how to harness it. We better figure out how to use it well. Organizations are just starting to formulate AI policies, what they will allow, what they won't allow.
I fully believe that we'll look back on those initial policies five years from now and laugh at ourselves. But we’ve got to start somewhere and the ability that it will give us and the doors that it opens. I don't think we should be scared of it. But I think that we have a responsibility to do it.
Worry less about being supplanted by a chatbot and more about being outpaced by someone adept at using AI to drive corporate success.
[00:32:51] Tommy Thomas: I read an article recently and the guy was talking and he said people shouldn't be worried about being replaced by a chat box or something. They should be more worried about being replaced by somebody who knows how to use artificial intelligence to the advantage of the corporation.
[00:33:09] Vonna Laue: Oh, I think that's a great line because the functions that it will be able to take the place of you probably don't need to worry about those, but yeah, the technology that goes along with it, make sure that you're one that knows that.
And I'm getting articles from fellow board members on a pretty consistent basis. Some of our staff liaisons in the organizations I serve, there is a lot of information that's out there and I would just encourage any of the board members don't be overwhelmed by it. We all have other responsibilities, right?
[00:33:46] Vonna Laue: None of us are going to go get a PhD in AI. But as we start to gain an awareness, I think we'll understand better what our responsibility might be as board members.
[00:33:59] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to bring this thing to a close. I've taken probably more of your time than you had allocated for me today and I'm grateful. If you could get a do over in life, what would that be?
[00:34:12] Vonna Laue: I mentioned earlier, there were probably a couple of meetings, partner meetings that I wish had gone differently. Quite honestly, Tommy, that's the only do over I might take, but I am very thankful to have lived my life without regrets. And that, to your point about failures and everything else, there’s value to be had in the experiences that we have encountered, and to lose out on those.
I'd probably just mess something else up. So, I think maybe I'll keep the ones that I have.
[00:34:50] Tommy Thomas: Do you have an “I wish I had started this earlier moment in your life?”
[00:34:57] Vonna Laue: Oh, I would say the one that I've done often on, that I wish that I was more consistent about, is just memorizing scripture. So I know a lot of people that are good at that. I have gone back to that, incorporating that on a daily basis. And if that's where the foundation of my decision making is coming from, I wish that I had a little bit more of that ingrained.
[00:35:25] Tommy Thomas: Final question. If you could give a younger version of yourself a piece of advice, what would it be?
[00:35:32] Vonna Laue: I learned this a little bit later. It wasn't too late in life, but one of the most important leadership principles that I feel like I've learned over the years, I'd love to just close with for your group, for your audience. And I think it applies that I would have wanted to know this.
As soon as I could, and that is when we have a person in a position that they're not succeeding in, we often in the Christian ministry world feel like we're Christians, we can't let somebody go and I believe that when God calls us to something, he doesn't call us to be miserable or ill equipped for it.
[00:36:18] Vonna Laue: And so, when we keep somebody in a position that they are not competent or capable of, we're doing a disservice to them. To two people in two organizations, at least we're doing a disservice to that person because we're keeping them where they can't thrive. And it's very hard to make a change. When I stepped away from the managing partner role, that was incredibly difficult.
Most of us don't like change. And so even if we're not happy, and fulfilled in a position, it's still comfortable. So, we're doing a disservice to them. We're doing a disservice to our organization because we don't have the right person in the job. We're doing a disservice to whoever ought to be in that position because we haven't opened it up for them to be there.
[00:37:03] Vonna Laue: And we're doing a disservice to whatever organization this person is supposed to work for because we haven't released them to go do that. And so I guess I'd come full circle with something I said earlier, and that is people are the key to what we do, throughout life, in personal matters and professional matters.
And so, stewarding the people in our life well is something that I think we all need to do. And it would have been great if I'd have learned that earlier on as well.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Glad I Didn’t Know: Lessons Learned Through Life’s Challenges and Unexpected Blessings
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Vonna on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Vonna Laue: I started working when I was 13 at Dairy Queen. And if you work at a fast food restaurant, at least at that time, more than six or nine months, you're in a leadership position and you've got a crew that works with you.
So I had that opportunity. And one of the biggest things looking back on it, and I didn't actually realize that until our girls got involved, but 4H was huge in my life. And at the time it was fun. I used to horse show and did a lot of the competitions at the county and state level.
But when I then took our daughter to a 4H meeting and realized, wow, this is where I learned a lot of my leadership skills. They operate with Robert's rules of order and the kids run the meetings and they're elected to positions. And so I had that opportunity at a really young age.
+++++++++++++
[00:00:55] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Vonna Laue. Vonna is a distinguished leader in the nonprofit sector, particularly known for her extensive work with churches and ministries. Early in her career, she served as a partner for a national CPA firm specializing in audit, tax, and advisory services for the nonprofit sector.
She later took on the role as Executive Vice President at the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, where she focused on enhancing trust within the church and ministry communities. Her experience is widely recognized. She has authored multiple articles, co-authored three books, frequently speaks at national and regional conferences, and in 2010, she was inducted into the Church Management Hall of Fame, underscoring her significant contributions to the field.
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Vonna, Welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:48] Vonna Laue: Tommy, thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
[00:01:50] Tommy Thomas: I've been looking forward to this for a long time. I first met you; I don't know how many years ago it was, but, Rich Stearns, the then President of World Vision had asked me to help him find some board members.
[00:02:02] Tommy Thomas: He gave me some parameters and you were the one of the ones that identified. So, I guess that was our first encounter.
[00:02:12] Vonna Laue: It was and that was 2016.
[00:02:14] Tommy Thomas: In the words of Crosby, Stills, Nash Young, so much water has passed underneath the bridge since then.
[00:02:24] Vonna Laue: Amen to that.
[00:02:26] Tommy Thomas: Let's give us a few start up questions. I'm always curious, and I don't know these things about you. Before we get too deep into your professional career, take me into your childhood. What was childhood like?
[00:02:39] Vonna Laue: I always enjoy telling people that think about birth order, that I'm a fairly complicated person because I was an only child and that automatically raises some red flags for some people.
[00:02:53] Vonna Laue: And then when I was eight, my parents divorced and both remarried within about a one-year timeframe, and I became a middle child in two families. So, if you're gonna play the birth order game, I'm gonna give you a lot of information to mull over in that.
[00:03:09] Tommy Thomas: Where was your childhood geographically?
[00:03:13] Vonna Laue: Absolutely. I grew up in South Dakota, which is one of the smallest populated states in the country. There were two stop lights in the town my mom was in and one stop light in the town my dad was in. We may get into it more, but I had the privilege of going to a Christian school. And so, I tell people there were three in my graduating high school class.
It was a definitely small-town America, and everyone knew what you were doing pretty much all the time.
[00:03:46] Tommy Thomas: Now we've heard these stories; Even my parents who were raised in Alabama and Georgia, they didn't have the snow part, but they had the part about walking to school five to six miles a day uphill.
In South Dakota, did you have to walk to school in the snow several miles a day?
[00:04:03] Vonna Laue: I walked to the bus stop, and because I went to a Christian school, we wore skirts and dresses every day. And it didn't matter if it was 20 above or 20 below. And they also didn't have snow days when I was a kid.
You went to school unless it was absolutely catastrophic. So yeah, I walked to the bus stop in the snow, in a skirt, many times, every winter.
[00:04:30] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back, what was the greatest gift you think your parents gave to you?
[00:04:36] Vonna Laue: Actually, it was that very thing of education. When my parents, even when they were still married and we were living in a small town, they wanted me to get an education.
And the best way to do that in their mind was through the local Christian school. And so, while my parents were in a mainline denomination and didn't have a relationship with Christ, that's where I went to school. And those three years and the education and the relationships that the Lord gave me there were critical for me.
[00:05:09] Vonna Laue: And then when life changed drastically and over the next four years, we moved multiple times and were in different education settings. I kept begging to go back to a Christian school. And so ultimately my seventh-grade year was able to do that, in a different Christian school. And again, they agreed to that because of the education that they felt like I would receive there, but it was through that I came to Christ.
So, I'm a big proponent of Christian education. And subsequently, my parents, grandparents came to Christ. They didn’t know it at the time, they weren't doing it for that reason, but that was by far the biggest gift they gave me.
[00:05:50] Tommy Thomas: You turned out at least initially as a CPA, was that a dream from high school?
[00:05:57] Vonna Laue: It wasn't. I don't remember, sometimes there are people that remember what they wanted to do in elementary school and that's what they did. We sponsored cadets at the Air Force Academy, and one of those wanted to be a fighter pilot from the time he was five years old, had every plane hanging in his room and to this day he is a fighter pilot.
That wasn't me. I didn't have that idea when I was little. When I got into middle school, I was volunteering at a hospital and thought I'd go into nursing and then wasn't really wild about nursing. And so, when I initially started taking college classes, I thought that I would major in chemistry and physics.
[00:06:37] Vonna Laue: And had a semester that I was able to go to Bible college in Minnesota and wanted to take that opportunity. I knew that I couldn't finish there, but wanted to go and take some foundational courses and take things that would transfer back to a state university in South Dakota. And when I went, one of the classes that I took was an accounting class.
And I took that class and I thought, this is easy. And then I looked around and realized, not everybody in this class thinks this is easy. Maybe there's something to that. And so, it was then, and I to this day wish that I had gone back to that professor, and just let him know the way that changed the course of my career.
[00:07:23] Tommy Thomas: Gosh, I remember my two accounting courses in graduate school. I couldn't say that they were easy. Probably the first one was easier. We were taught our first accounting course by the CFO of Coca Cola Bottling Company in Birmingham. He brought stuff from the office every day to the classroom at night. I think that made accounting maybe a little bit more tolerable for me.
[00:07:45] Vonna Laue: Yeah. Real world application, I think does make it at least a lot more enjoyable.
++++++++++++++
[00:07:50] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:07:53] Vonna Laue: I usually can pull a few of those out. I would say the one I would share with you and your listeners today is, I was apparently the nation's youngest emergency medical technician and always will be because they passed a regulation not long after I got licensed, but I was 13 when I licensed as an EMT.
[00:08:14] Vonna Laue: So that usually surprises people.
[00:08:17] Tommy Thomas: That's a good conversation starter.
[00:08:21] Vonna Laue: I thought you might like that one.
[00:08:23] Tommy Thomas: So, you're out of college now. You're in accounting. Can you think back to your first management job and when you had somebody reporting to you? What can you tell us about that?
[00:08:37] Vonna Laue: I'm thankful. I'm going to back up a little bit just in the leadership journey because I'm thankful for the opportunities I had even when it wasn't my career, if you will. I started working when I was 13 at Dairy Queen. And if you work at a fast-food restaurant, at least at that time, more than six or nine months, you're in a leadership position and you've got a crew that works with you.
So, I had that opportunity. And one of the biggest things that looking back on it, and I didn't realize that until our girls got involved, but 4H was huge in my life. And at the time it was fun. I used to horse show and did a lot of the competitions at the county and state level.
[00:09:23] Vonna Laue: But when I then took our daughter to a 4H meeting and realized, wow, this is where I learned a lot of my leadership skills. They operate with Robert's rules of order and the kids run the meetings and they're elected to positions. And so, I have that opportunity at a really young age.
Obviously when I came into the CPA firm, I served there 20 years and over the course of that time, started as a staff accountant and just worked my way up from there into a senior role and a manager role, a partner role, and then ultimately when I left the firm, left as the managing partner at the time of the national firm, so a lot of opportunities and challenges along the way in that, but I think probably the biggest thing is just how important people are and the way that you treat them and the relationships that you develop with them, not in a way that you're manipulative. But in a way that you truly are investing in them, that will serve you and your organization well, but it goes with them wherever they go beyond there.
[00:10:37] Vonna Laue: So I look at that as an opportunity to make an investment long-term in a person.
[00:10:42] Tommy Thomas: So if we could go back to that last three or four years in the CPA world, and here you are the managing partner, and you let me come into your staff meeting one day and after about five minutes, we dismissed you and I was talking to the staff and I asked them, what's the most exciting thing about working for Vonna? What do you think they would have said?
[00:11:04] Vonna Laue: It's a great and scary thought all at the same time. I think that I would take them on the people journey with me, if you will. When I left and moved from our Colorado offices to the California offices, one of the things that really blessed me was one of the staff people that I worked with said, when you traveled with Vonna, she invested in the people in the hotel. When we would go to visit the same client year after year, the hotel clerks knew her because she would take time to visit with them and invest in them. I think sometimes that was annoying to people, and sometimes it was good, but created some interesting and maybe even exciting things along the way.
[00:11:52] Vonna Laue: We had a brand-new staff accountant one time, and we were driving back from an audit between Denver and Colorado Springs, and there was a wreck that happened right in front of us. And this poor staff accountant hadn't worked there for a week or two, and I pulled over and threw him the keys to the car and my cell phone and told him to call 911.
And I just got out, and he had no idea what this accountant was doing. So I created some excitement, I think, just by the different ways that I would interact with people.
[00:12:22] Tommy Thomas: If I flip that coin, what would they say was the most challenging aspect of working for you?
[00:12:29] Vonna Laue: I tend to do a lot of different things. I think you've come to know that about me over the years, Tommy. And I try very hard to let people know that my busyness is my problem and not theirs, but I think that people often are concerned that they're a bother or they're concerned they can't get time.
So, I try to work with the people closest to me frequently on how best to manage. And I'm sure that's not an easy thing.
[00:13:07] Tommy Thomas: Successful people are often asked, what makes you so successful? I'd like to frame the question this way, what's a factor that's helped you succeed that people from the outside probably wouldn't be aware of?
[00:13:20] Vonna Laue: I'll start off with the primary one beyond the obvious one and everyone's the Lord, right? And then, and I 100 percent agree with that. If God had only ever given me what I prayed for, I'd have sure missed out on an incredible amount of opportunity. So that is a given.
Quite honestly. My husband is very instrumental in my success and a lot of people don't know that because Brian's behind the scenes and most people don't know him, but I talk about being raised in a small town and we still laugh about it to this day, but I was terrified to be around people. We went to a football game one time that had a couple thousand people at it.
[00:14:08] Vonna Laue: And I said, would you go get me popcorn? And he said, you can get it yourself. And he wasn't being rude or mean. He just knew that I needed to grow. And I was like, no, I don't need it. And he's like go get your popcorn. And he just has had the foresight over the years to stretch and grow me. And now I think this year I will have probably seven international trips, have the opportunity to speak to hundreds of people at a time, just amazing opportunities and that's a big part of it.
But on a personal front, I think that the key to that is being willing to be stretched. That's not easy. It's a lot easier to go with the routine, to go with the things that are known. But when you're willing to open yourself up to opportunities to be stretched, to take advantage of uncomfortable situations, you get a lot more opportunity that follows.
++++++++++++++++
[00:15:11] Tommy Thomas: I'm going to make the assumption here that you've had some good mentors in life. Can you take us down that rabbit trail?
[00:15:17] Vonna Laue: I love to talk about mentoring. One of the things that I found throughout a good portion of my career was that it was really hard for me to find a mentor.
And the reason that I say that is because I could find godly women who would invest in me personally and spiritually, but many of them had the perspective of a stay-at-home mom and that they didn't understand why I had the desire to have a career. I love my girls who are grown now, but always laughed that they would not have wanted me at home with them all the time because I don't care that you're two.
You should be able to organize your closet by short sleeve, long sleeve, skirts, dresses, get it organized. So, I had that challenge, with those women that I wanted to speak into that portion of my life. And then when I looked for someone who professionally could invest and develop me, there was almost the opposite of that.
[00:16:21] Vonna Laue: And it was, you got to give everything you have to the job. You're never going to get ahead if you try to balance family. Now, obviously both of those I'm saying to an extreme, but I just had a really difficult time for a long time finding someone who understood my faith and commitment to family, as well as my desire to be excellent in my career.
And over time, I have done that. Tammy Heim has been a great mentor to me and a good balance of those things. And there have been others, but it has given me a commitment that we find that for other people. So, two things I would say, one is I have a distinction of my own between coaching and mentoring. Coaching I believe is professional in nature.
[00:17:10] Vonna Laue: Men and women can work together in a coaching situation. I personally believe that mentoring often flows over into more personal aspects of your life. And it's a holistic approach to family and work and all of those things. And my idea with mentoring is that it should be the same gender, because I don't want to be talking about the difficulties I'm having at home with a male counterpart. That just isn't appropriate to me.
So, I differentiate those two things based on that. And I know not everyone does, but over the last couple of years have had just the extreme privilege of starting some peer mentoring groups for young ladies. And each group is three young women in similar stages of life, but in different roles and in different organizations.
[00:18:00] Vonna Laue: So, they don't come in and fix each other's problems by, oh, you need this software, or you need this vendor. They really listen and help each other problem solve. And then each group has a seasoned leader in it that can contribute maybe some of the stories that she's encountered over time, or even just to be the brakes like, but you could do that, but you might consider what could happen as a result.
[00:18:25] Vonna Laue: Two years ago, we started with two of those groups, we're just wrapping up the second year with five, and next month will start 10 groups committed for the following year. So excited about the opportunity to invest in other young women.
[00:18:42] Tommy Thomas: So, let me take that just a little bit further and we may come back to it later.
Board service has been a big part of your life, certainly in the last 20 years. In your mentoring, are you talking to these women about board service and the pros and cons and if you serve, what's your best contribution kind of thing and trying to give them some opportunities to do that, right?
[00:19:09] Vonna Laue: The first board I served on was not World Vision. I want to remind people, both young people who are getting into board service, get involved in a local community board, whether that is. I served our hospital in Colorado Springs on their governmental committee. Whether it's a local chapter of some organization, the church network and Christian Leadership Alliance served on some of those, taking the opportunities to get involved in that at a more local level and then work your way up just like you would in almost anything else you do.
You don't take up woodworking and become a master craftsman overnight. You start small. So, encouraging them to do that and then encouraging boards and leaders to give young people opportunity and don't expect them to come in with 25 years of experience.
[00:20:10] Vonna Laue: You open the opportunities for them to come in and the things that they will contribute to your board discussions you can't imagine. So, I'm excited about what the future looks like.
[00:20:27] Tommy Thomas: So, going back to personal leadership for a minute, in the book, It's How You Play the Game: The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith, leadership principle #10 is making failure your friend. Can you share something from your life where this has been in play?
[00:20:45] Vonna Laue: Nobody likes to fail, but it absolutely is true and the things that you learn from that and I look back on my time as Managing Partner at the firm and what a blessing that was and how gracious those partners were with me, because I would say, at least one of my biggest failures was just in how I handled the people involved there.
And I just got done saying I love people and I do, but I will say all of those leaders are incredibly successful people and, no, I don't mean anything bad by this for those that are in a professional service firm, but it is so true that it's like herding cats because they all have their own realm and their own domain.
[00:21:33] Vonna Laue: And they're really good at that. And I wasn't really good at bringing them all together at times and helping us find a strategic vision to go forward in, in one direction where we were all pulling in the same way. And so when I hear that quote, that's one of the things that I think about. And that's been a benefit to me in the years after that to look at, how do we get people to pull in the same direction when they have vested interests in a number of different ways? And now I serve in a mission sending organization. And there's some similarity there when you've got global workers that have their own domain in many parts of the world.
God used that to equip me for some of the decisions that have to be made in this setting.
+++++++++++++++
[00:22:16] Tommy Thomas: Going back to your mentoring thing for a minute, are you introducing failure to these young women?
[00:22:23] Vonna Laue: I would say what I have found is that they're introducing some of their own failures and learning from each other and encouraging each other and the opportunity that it provides those of us that are the season leaders is to say, hey, like this isn't a bad thing. This is difficult. And you would have wanted to avoid this, but this is part of your growing and part of your maturing as a leader and to provide some insights there and embrace it and let them learn from each other. I would say that's probably been the best part of the failure within those groups.
[00:23:03] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox said progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken and how did it turn out?
[00:23:17] Vonna Laue: One of the things that I have thought about over the years and comes from the lessons that I've talked about where I was glad, I didn't know, taking the Managing Partner role was a huge risk at the time.
I remember vividly sitting with my husband and saying that if I take this role, there's no going back. Like you don't just leave that and go back into the setting where you were before. And we prayed about it and really felt like that's what we were supposed to do. And that was a huge blessing.
[00:23:52] Vonna Laue: It was a challenge, like I've just said, but it was a huge blessing. And then, even bigger than that was the year that I left the firm and that was God saying, you’ve done what I've called you to do here, and now it's time to leave. And I had three arguments for the Lord, and Tommy, I don't know if you've ever argued with the Lord.
If you haven't, I don't suggest it. You're not going to win. So just save your breath. But I had three arguments for him. Number one was I was a lifer. I've told everyone for years, I'm at this firm until retirement. I love it. I'm here. And he said, no. And I said, my second argument was this is economically stupid because he wasn't calling me to something.
[00:24:42] Vonna Laue: He was calling me away from something. And he reminded me of that cattle on a thousand hills. And I was like, ah, yep. He's got that too. And then my third argument was just a little more logistical and operational. And that was that our oldest was headed to college, but our youngest was headed to high school.
And I just said to him, Lord, you can interrupt. My husbands in my life, but let's not mess with our daughter going into high school. Give me four more years and maybe, and he said, no. And so, without having a job, I was supposed to give 12 months’ notice. I went to the partners September 1st of that year and said to them, I believe this is a matter of obedience.
[00:25:23] Vonna Laue: And I think if I don't do it, it's going to be detrimental to the firm and detrimental to our family. And they were gracious and agreed. And so, I wrapped up in four months. I had 150 or so meetings to tell clients I was leaving, and the firm was fine, network people, that I had connections with that I was moving on.
And of course, what's the first question everyone asks you is, so what are you going to do? And this left-brain analytical type A personality had to look at them all 150 times and say, I don't know. And that was a challenge, but it was exactly what God called us to do at that point in time. And I'm glad that while I'm not always faithful and following through, I'm glad that we did that.
++++++++++++++++
[00:26:14] Tommy Thomas: Join us next week as we continue this conversation with Vonna Laue. Vonna shares insights from her new book, Glad I Didn't Know, which explores lessons learned from life's challenges and unexpected blessings. She discusses the importance of having people who speak truth into a leader's life, the critical role of team dynamics, and the necessity of balancing personal and professional health. Vonna also reflects on the increasing significance of risk management and the impact of artificial intelligence in the nonprofit sector. Tune in for an engaging discussion on leadership, resilience, and growth.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Sergey Bogza: Obviously there are strengths and weaknesses in each generation. The conductor is how to utilize the strengths. Every generation brings a perspective. It's certainly a fascinating process working with the baby boomers, so to speak. The work ethic - you're going to get stuff done with baby boomers. They just know how to get stuff done, and they know how to work, and show up on time, and be diligent in their work.
+++++++++++++++
[00:00:38] Tommy Thomas: Sergey delves into the unique dynamics of working with different generations within an orchestra, highlighting how he leverages the strengths of each age group while minimizing their weaknesses.
He discusses the strategic process of assembling and leading an orchestra, emphasizing the importance of understanding each member's skill set before making changes.
He also reflects on the balance between rigorous rehearsals and the freedom of live performances, sharing his philosophy on leadership and creativity in the fine arts.
This episode is a deep dive into the art of orchestral leadership and the life lessons that come with it, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in leadership, teamwork, and the performing arts.
Let’s pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:40] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to I guess how you assemble an orchestra like, and we'll just take Panama City. When you came to town you had a group of people that I suppose were members of the symphony. How do you build the team? Did you have to go out and bring new people in? Did you have to release some that weren't up to what you thought might be possible?
[00:02:07] Sergey Bogza: Right? There's a little bit of both. And what I didn't want to do is to be a one-chapter hero or a one act hero act, or I don't know the best way to describe it.
And it all started with, first of all, trying to understand everyone's skill set and not making any changes right away. I wanted to become an informed, compassionate leader first, before initiating any changes, before releasing anyone, before recruiting anyone. I wanted to give everyone a fair shot.
[00:02:54] Sergey Bogza: I also wanted to give myself a fair shot of getting a clear understanding of where we are as an orchestra from a leadership perspective, from talent depth, and get a few concerts under my belt to see here's where we are and to be able to assess and get a clear understanding of where we are as an orchestra.
And then only after that, start making strategic decisions. How do we become a better orchestra? So, the first three, four or five months I was in the data collection phase of talking to people, interviewing orchestra members, and having chamber concerts with selected orchestra musicians.
And after I got a clear picture of where we were, only after that, we started making strategic moves, whether it was by way of an audition, or by way of closely working with people.
[00:04:00] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you an innovative kind of question, as it relates to the orchestra. Is there room for the orchestra members to innovate or be creative, or is that pretty much in the hands of the conductor?
[00:04:17] Sergey Bogza: It's a little bit of both, frankly. And it's more on the conductor. The conductor will shape more, for example, with a piece that the orchestra has never done, or with a brand-new work that nobody knows. A world premiere.
It's the conductor that has a thing called the score where everyone's parts are in it and the role of the conductor is to take all of that data and assimilate it into a vision and then communicate that vision to the musicians or traditional works.
For example, classical works that everybody has played. It is a much more collaborative process. Everybody brings something to the table. It’s a collaborative process and they offer and then we kind of mold together into one vision that we present to the audience. So, it's a little bit of both. If I'm being 100 percent honest.
[00:05:17] Tommy Thomas: Over the years, you've worked with people from probably the boomer generation, Gen X, Millennials and Gen Z.
Have you noticed any differences in the generations in terms of when it comes to working together as a team. Is there any group that does it better or any group that says, no, we're not going there? Or am I being too general?
[00:05:42] Sergey Bogza: No, I don't think you're being too general. I suppose in my position, especially in the world of fine arts, you work with all groups of people. And I would say that the four groups that you've described have some similarities. There are some overlaps. Obviously there are strengths and weaknesses in each generation.
The conductor is how to utilize the strengths that every generation brings and perspectives. It's certainly a fascinating process working with the baby boomers, so to speak. The work ethic - you're going to get stuff done with baby boomers. They just know how to get stuff done, and they know how to work, and show up on time, and be diligent in their work.
But there is also value in millennials and Gen Xers. In our family, my brothers and sisters span about 20 years. So, I've got a chance to get to know each of those generations quite intimately.
+++++++++++++++
[00:07:04] Tommy Thomas: If y'all invited me to one of your practice sessions and after a while I convinced you to let me have some time alone with the orchestra. And I asked them two questions. I'd like your response. What would they say is the most challenging aspect of working with you?
[00:07:24] Sergey Bogza: That I'm too punctual during the process. But too free during the performance.
[00:07:34] Tommy Thomas: You want to unpack that a little bit.
[00:07:36] Sergey Bogza: Sure. Probably during our rehearsal some musicians would probably criticize and say that it's too surgical work, that it's too detailed and too punctual, and we're going to start here. We're going to end there. And now we're going to take a break and now we're going to work on this and now we're going to work on that. And it's very, it's super structured and organized and buttoned up.
But when the performance comes, I'm a free man and people will say hold on, we've done this punctual work and then it comes to the performance and then we just sail free and the performance and the sailing free can feel sometimes a little dangerous or on the edge.
[00:08:29] Sergey Bogza: And that's what I live for. That edge in the performance. I feel I can be free in the performance, but for the musicians, they want to keep some of that structure that we've had in rehearsals. So as a leader, I'm still learning how to balance those, how to put the group together and give it that freedom, but not for us to fly during the performance.
But not to fly dangerously, I love to fly dangerously during performances. It’s what I live for, but it's not always to everyone's comfort level.
[00:09:03] Tommy Thomas: But you couldn't mean you couldn't have that comfort. I don't imagine if you hadn't gone through all the rigor of what you just described in the first two or three minutes of this piece that you've practiced. I've heard basketball coaches say that the ball games are won in the practice session. Dean Smith used to say that at Chapel Hill, they won or lost before we got to the game.
[00:09:25] Sergey Bogza: 100%. And that's my philosophy. We set the boundaries, or we set the structure during the rehearsals, but in the performance, we just fly.
And sometimes I like to fly too dangerously in performances. And so that's probably if, when it comes to some of the criticism of musicians, that's probably one of the things that would say is that, things that we thought were all going to be this loud in rehearsal are now twice as loud in the performance because a spirit has taken over or some things we thought that we were going to take play this fast in rehearsal are now a little slower in performance or now a little faster in performance. But in the performance, you adjust to the spirit of the night rather than the spirit of rehearsal. And that is where the magic happens in performances.
And I've always felt that I'm a much better performer than in rehearsal. As a coach in rehearsals, I tend to be too tedious, too formulaic.
[00:10:39] Sergey Bogza: And then like a switch happens when there's an audience and I can't help but to be free. After all, it's what everybody else came to see. They came for the magic, for the wonder of music. And if we perform where the scenes are seen, where the work that the orchestra has put is obvious, where people can see the effort, we've missed the mark.
It needs to feel effortless. When you fly too dangerously, it's sometimes uncomfortable to some people, but it's what we do.
[00:11:28] Tommy Thomas: So, on the flip side, what would they say would be the most rewarding part of being a member of your symphony?
[00:11:37] Sergey Bogza: The rewarding part, whether it's working with the symphony, the board or other musicians is that we complete projects that we start. And we don't take on projects that have a low chance of success. When we get together and we agree to do something, the majority of cases people know one way or another, this project will cross the finish line.
And I think for most people, it's a rewarding aspect. How many times have people started something and never completed it because of the determination factor that didn't come through or somebody else didn't complete a portion of their role with the symphony? We like to do projects that we have a good feeling that we're going to complete.
[00:12:36] Sergey Bogza: And when working with the symphony, whether we do concerts or music education projects, our goal, and in most cases when the people sign up, they internally know that this project will cross the finish line. And instilling that confidence that what we work on will be presented eventually, it will complete.
This is not a vanity project that will just patter out because of lack of focus or lack of enthusiasm. I think it's what gets people going and people are willing to contribute so much more when there's this confidence that we will cross the finish line together.
[00:13:23] Tommy Thomas: A quick question, maybe two, about the pandemic.
I can't even imagine what the pandemic was like for an orchestra or a symphony. And then maybe the second question, what did you get out of the pandemic that's a lesson that you can take forward? What was the silver lining?
[00:13:41] Sergey Bogza: Time is valuable, and time is fleeing. That's what I took away from the pandemic. And for me, I remember even before the pandemic, people would often say, if I had the time, I would learn a new language. I would travel. I would spend more time. I would learn a new skill. I would discover composers I've never heard before.
And then the pandemic happened. And people have all this time and to my surprise, more often than not, whatever people said they wanted to do when they had the time, people didn't pursue those things for one reason or another. So, my thought was like, okay, you must make the time.
[00:14:33] Sergey Bogza: One must find the way to achieve your dreams. Because as I've said, during the pandemic, everybody had so much time on their hands to develop new skills, whatever, to achieve some portion of their dreams, but utilizing time to your best advantage is a skill. Probably the time I've learned from the pandemic is that time is valuable.
You never get it back. So might as well utilize it to the best of your advantage and use it for your own or your good and to do something valuable with it. That's the lesson I took away from that pandemic.
[00:15:11] Tommy Thomas: It is said that we learn most from our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:15:33] Sergey Bogza: I'm trying to give an answer to this, but I'm having a hard time coming up with the right answer because strangely I've got used to failure. It's part of my DNA and I suppose I'm not afraid of failure. I hope it's not coming off, sounding too proud. But I wish more people would take on projects that would make them scared.
There's so much reward on the other side and embracing, I don't know, maybe it's getting comfortable with fear.
[00:16:13] Sergey Bogza: Once one finds a way to be comfortable with fear, whether it's fear of public speaking, of doing something difficult, of doing something where you might embarrass yourself, there's such a reward and beauty on the other side when you can talk to that version of yourself that is fearful.
It's the reason why I feel I've taken up endurance sports. During the endurance run, I always come across that weak, pathetic version of Sergey that says, go home, practice your piano. Why are you here in the middle of the mountains running? Your knee hurts. Your head hurts. You're a musician after all. What are you doing here?
And when one meets that, and gets to understand those evil thoughts of one's weak, pathetic version of themselves, and one gets comfortable with that part of yourself, and one learns how to have that conversation, that I know that voice. Whether it's music or any other field that says maybe this is not for you, maybe you don't belong at this level, you're not meant to achieve these things.
And one learns how to confront that and have an honest conversation, or at least be on equal terms. There's so much freedom on the other side of fear.
++++++++++++++++=
[00:17:58] Tommy Thomas: I'd like you to respond to a few quotes. This is always a fun part of the podcast to me. And here's one that would certainly be in your area. It's from Ben Zander, the Conductor of the Boston Philharmonic. He says the conductor doesn't make a sound. The conductor's power depends upon his or her ability to make other people powerful.
[00:18:22] Sergey Bogza: I could not agree more. Adding anything to that quote would be taking away from it.
[00:18:35] Tommy Thomas: Here's another one. No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5 percent by your credentials, 15 percent by your professional experiences, and 80 percent by your communication skills.
[00:18:54] Sergey Bogza: I have no response except to say, keep them coming. Those are wonderful quotes. Communication is, I suppose everything. And in a world of conductors, where we make no sound at all, and we communicate without gestures, with our eyes, where we communicate nonverbally, where we communicate how we dress, how we look at people, our postures, our demeanor, our facial expressions.
Our orchestras often say within 10 seconds of the conductor on the podium, even before they give the first cue to start, we know the type of person they are. And if we're going to have a successful concert.
[00:19:48] Tommy Thomas: Phil Jackson, the former coach of the Lakers, the strength of the team is each member. The strength of each member is the team. Another one. No one can whistle a symphony. It takes a whole orchestra to play it.
[00:20:14] Sergey Bogza: That is true. Wow, these are wonderful quotes. Keep them coming because I feel like I've just become a student. And I'm learning. There's no response to that. This is beautiful.
These are beautiful quotes. And yeah, they apply to orchestras, just like any business or any organization that requires a team to make it tick and work.
Another athletic quote from Casey Stengel. Getting good players is easy. Getting them to play together is the hard part.
[00:20:53] Sergey Bogza: I have something to say about that. In the musical world, and especially in a professional orchestra, where you're not learning, when you're not working with amateurs, when you're working with people that have years and years of training, and to be in a music world there's no way you cannot have an ego to get on stage, to pick up an instrument, to make a sound and to have that confidence.
I have something valuable for people to listen to that takes a certain amount of conviction and takes a certain amount of ego in the best sense of that word. Now, when you get 65 musicians that have that pedigree, that have that background, and to mold all of that into a group, that is tricky, that is difficult.
[00:21:52] Sergey Bogza: And that is where quality of leadership is essentially determined. I have had a friend who said, you don't really know how good of a conductor you are until you've truly worked with a professional orchestra. It's easy as a conductor or a coach to work with. I don't want to say it's easy. It's a different ball game.
If you're working with, say undeveloped talent, where you have to do drills and you have to instill the basics. But when you're working with professionals who have done it, who know the business, who know how it goes, when on the first go around the orchestra is sounding amazing, when you don't need to point out little deficiencies, when you no longer need to correct wrong notes, wrong rhythms, or the orchestra is not together, when the product is great from the get go, that's when you really learn the kind of leader you are and the depth of your conducting abilities.
[00:23:06] Sergey Bogza: Because then you really must give the magic, then you must give the musical leadership, the intentions behind the music, the spirit of it, you have to inspire a great product of what you're already getting that's wonderful. And that's when you really learn what level of a musician you are.
Are you an artist or you are a drill sergeant or you're a basic conductor that just knows the basics? That's the tricky part. It's when you get a well-oiled machine. For example, when I grew up, I loved basketball. And in the mid 90s, of course, it was the Chicago Bulls.
[00:23:50] Sergey Bogza: Imagine becoming a coach of a team like that. Winning championships, we've got the best player in the world, you've got the best synergy and your goal as a coach to drive that, to give them something even more, we're not coaching a team that's losing every other game, where you get the best team and your goal is to continue that energy and to elevate it. That's where you really learn who you are as a leader and as a coach.
[00:24:29] Tommy Thomas: Here's a different kind of quote. If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:24:38] Sergey Bogza: Yeah. And in the world of music, when you're working with works that have been composed 200 years ago, 300 years ago, 100 years ago, that have become staple in our repertoire world, works that everyone has, everyone knows. And when they come to a concert and you're performing that piece, the conductor's role is to color outside the lines, to give those works a new perspective, a new life. And in that sense would have missed the point by coloring inside the lines.
We'll close out with a couple of, two, three lightning round questions. The first one, have you changed in the last five years?
[00:25:29] Sergey Bogza: Oh, yes. I think I'm a different person than I was five years ago. I'd like to say that I'm a more patient and sympathetic person. And I give that credit to my two dogs, Samson and Stella. I've become a dog owner in the last five years. It's a new area of life that I've discovered and taking care of two animals daily has changed who I am as a person.
That's one of the things I wish I had done earlier in my life, is to become a pet owner.
[00:26:21] Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them only one question, who would it be and what would you ask?
[00:26:40] Sergey Bogza: It would be the Russian composer Dmitri Shostakovich. And the question I would ask him is, where did you find the energy and the meaning to carry on?
[00:27:02] Tommy Thomas: Final question, what's the best piece of advice anybody's ever given you?
[00:27:09] Sergey Bogza: Be humble, be a student, and lead with compassion.
[00:27:21] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website – www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search - What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Panama City Symphony Website
Sergey Bogza's Personal Website
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Sergey Bogza: In Russia, before you went to first grade, it was the parent's responsibility, at least that's what my mom said, for her to teach us how to read and write and know multiplication tables up to 12.
So, a first grader starting school knows how to read, write, and knows multiplication up to 12. And so, the entire summer preparing for school exams was my mom drilling me on how to write cursive, how to read, and drilling on multiplication tables. And then there was a time where you have to go and pass the exam and they identified your placement.
And I remember it was a hundred percent or one mistake that I made and the sense of accomplishment. After four months of just mom working with you every day, just passing with flying colors. I remember that being such a validation of the efforts that you've put in.
+++++++++++++
[00:02:51] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Sergey Bogza, Conductor and Music Director of the Panama City Symphony. When you talk with Sergey, the conversation could go a lot of ways. We could talk about how he excels as an endurance athlete, regularly competing in ultra marathons and long-distance bike rides.
We could talk about his proficiency in the kitchen, as it relates to Slavic cuisine. Or we can talk about his two dogs, Sampson and Stella, and how they help him train for his endurance feats. We'll have to leave those topics for another day, because today I want to talk with him about his love for music and his journey from immigrating to the United States in 1995 to becoming the Conductor and Music Director of the Panama City Symphony.
[00:03:40] Tommy Thomas: Welcome to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:03:42] Sergey Bogza:: Thank you for having me.
[00:03:45] Tommy Thomas: One of the benefits that I've derived from being a Rotarian is the good speakers we have. And I remember you speaking to our club in Panama City, probably a year and a half or so ago back when we met at the Yacht Club.
A lot of times my listeners want to know how I get these guests. And that's how I got Sergey. Before we dig too much into your professional career I'd like to go back to your childhood. I know you're an immigrant. Can you tell us a little bit about that story?
[00:04:14] Sergey Bogza: Sure. We moved to the United States in 1995. This was just a few years after the fall of the Soviet Union. My dad had a big family, and he wasn't sure of what the future might be, and he didn't see a lot of opportunities. Mid 90s in Russia was a tough time and when the borders opened and we had a chance to immigrate to the land of milk and honey and opportunity, even though we've never been, my dad took a risk and moved us to the United States. And it's one of the things that we're always grateful to him, to our mom for taking that chance and giving us the opportunity of making a life here in America.
[00:05:04] Tommy Thomas: When I talk to someone who immigrated, I have a hard enough time with English as a native speaker. Did you speak English fluently when you came?
[00:05:13] Sergey Bogza: Oh, no. Zero.
[00:05:16] Tommy Thomas: What grade would you have been? Were you a bit in school by then or just starting?
[00:05:21] Sergey Bogza: I was nine when I moved to the United States. And I was completing second grade in Russia. And when we immigrated to the United States, they ran all the tests.
And zero English, but, geography, math, arithmetic. It was pretty advanced in the way I was doing it. So, they put me in fourth grade. I was supposed to finish second grade in Russia. We moved to the United States and I ended up finishing fourth grade, so I got a clear leap.
[00:05:55] Tommy Thomas: What's your happiest memory of childhood?
[00:06:01] Sergey Bogza: Happy childhood in Russia, let me think.
[00:06:04] Tommy Thomas: Or you could do it post nine-year-old.
[00:06:07] Sergey Bogza: I think probably two happiest memories that I can think of is in Russia, before you went to first grade, it was the parent's responsibility, at least that's what my mom said, for her to teach us how to read and write and know multiplication tables up to 12.
So, a first grader starting school knows how to read, write, and knows multiplication up to 12. And so, the entire summer preparing for school exams was my mom drilling me on how to write cursive, how to read, and drilling on multiplication tables. And then there was a time where you had to go and pass the exam and they identified your placement.
[00:07:01] Sergey Bogza: And I remember it was a hundred percent or one mistake that I made and the sense of accomplishment. After four months of just mom working with you every day, just getting passing with flying colors. I remember that being such a validation of the efforts that you've put in.
And probably another memorable experience was that in Russia, I don't know why, but it was important that you learn and memorize poetry of great literary figures. And somehow there was always time we had to learn these long poems, memorize them, but in addition to that, when our parents had guests come over, we would be put on a chair and had to recite those poems from memory with intention and delivery.
[00:07:59] Sergey Bogza: And there was one time I remember reciting a poem, I forget what it was, but I started it, and it made an impression, but as I kept going, I noticed people started losing interest, and I remember adjusting my delivery to, as a kid, this was happening on such a subconscious level, and having the audience turned around going from uninterested to, oh, he has something to say.
I just remember that being a powerful experience as a child, how you deliver things, how you say things makes an impression. So yeah, it's stored somewhere way out there in the back of your brain. But those two things I remember vividly from my childhood, making kind of an obsession making an impression on me.
++++++++++++++
[00:08:49] Tommy Thomas: Now, was music a part of your upbringing in Russia, or did that happen once y'all got to the States?
[00:08:56] Sergey Bogza: That happened when we got to the States, but when my parents got together with friends, the guitar and community singing was always part of it. It's almost like a Slavic culture that when people got together, the guitar or piano was present.
People sang folk songs or religious songs, whatever it might be. So, music was always around, but it only started as a formal training once we got to the United States.
[00:09:26] Tommy Thomas: Can you describe your high school experience in three words?
[00:09:32] Sergey Bogza: High school experience in three words: musical, tedious and focused.
Tommy Thomas: And was that because of the home emphasis or by that time, had you gotten into the classroom and that had become a part of your career path, so to speak?
[00:09:53] Sergey Bogza: By the time I got to high school, I knew what I wanted to do with my life. So, I was in two different bands. I was also in singing and choir. So, it was a musical experience in high school, tedious, because I have to go to these classes that I had no interest in, but still get good grades. So, I can get a scholarship and focus is the word I use because I knew what I wanted to do in high school, or I wanted to know what I was going to do with my life post high school. So, it was a matter of just, I need to finish these four years, I need to graduate, and I need to stay focused, get good grades, and get my musical training, continue with my piano lessons, sing in choirs, and play trumpet in a band.
But at the same time, I had to go to these classes that I just had little interest in. So that monotony and tedious was, it's the reason I use that word to describe the high school experience.
[00:10:55] Tommy Thomas: What is something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:11:04] Sergey Bogza: There are things besides music that I love and enjoy.
[00:11:09] Tommy Thomas: Thus, our segue from our intro and I wish we had time to get into some of that, but we'll hold back a little bit. Obviously, you got comfortable in your leadership skin early in life. I liked that story about telling the poem.
I think that even in elementary school it said something about your stage presence and how you were comfortable in that format. Successful people are always asked what makes you so successful. I like to frame the question this way.
What's a factor that's helped you succeed that most people on the outside wouldn't realize or recognize?
[00:11:49] Sergey Bogza: Wow. That's a great question. And the world of art is a unique world. And sometimes when people look at artists or musicians, they usually catch them when they're doing their art on stage. They catch them when they're doing the 2%, the final product, the performance, when there's this flair, flow, artistry, dashing gestures.
And things are just happening. You're in a state of ecstasy. When people see musicians, they catch them at that moment. But what people don't often see is the 98%. The sort of the monotonous work, the planning, the staging, the details. And if I were just to answer that question as to what people don't realize, or what makes it successful is the attention to detail that makes those 2 percent feel like magic.
[00:13:01] Sergey Bogza: That's the tricky part of being an artist. What you showcase to people and what you share with people is just a fraction of all the work, the monotony, the tedious, the details, the reworking things, the 50 different drafts that you come up with that nobody will ever see. And all of that is at the service of making that 1%, the 2 percent of the time that you share with the audience to feel like magic, freedom, exploration of the divine, to make your art have a feeling of divineness to it. That's the tricky part. That's what I think most people don't realize. And people will always say obviously that is talent.
That's a born talent that you were given by God. And no way. If you knew what this so-called talent has gone through, you would call it maybe craftsmanship, you would call it just stubbornness. There's so many other words to call what people describe as talent, but that's what I would say is the, in other words, you have a view of the forest.
[00:14:25] Sergey Bogza: But you know the little details and you don't get the little details yet. Forest, but you have us, but you also know the details that contribute to the feeling of the forest and that I'm probably not summarizing this very well, but that's the general feel of the process there.
[00:14:44] Tommy Thomas: I guess you would say that some people come to you in the orchestra or the symphony with more talent than others. I realize it's a high bar to get there in the beginning. In the NBA, even the substitutes are pretty good.
Yeah, I'm trying to get my head around the natural talent or the person that just seems to have been born with it. And you say most of it is hard work.
[00:15:12] Sergey Bogza Natural. Yeah, natural talent is not enough. It is not enough. And what often happens when people just ride on natural talent eventually comes to an end.
There is a cap to natural talent, regardless of how talented one is, difficult times will come. And in the world of art, you are working with masterworks masterpieces. Works of Mozart’s of this world. These were geniuses that have given us.
[00:15:46] Sergey Bogza: And when you work with that type of level of artistry, no natural talent will suffice.
Yes, it's great when you have that natural intuition for certain elements, but the building of the technique, the building of the process, putting concerts together, finding a way to communicate your art to the general audience, to the general public.
That is work, and that is craftsmanship. Probably one of my favorite quotes of Johann Sebastian Bach, a man with a talent and a genius, but he described himself as a craftsman, someone who has learned the art of crafting counterpoint of writing 30 minutes of music a week to present at the church services where he worked.
So, a combination of talent and craftsmanship is what makes one successful.
+++++++++++++++
[00:16:53] Tommy Thomas: Aside from your mom, have you had mentors in your life?
[00:16:58] Sergey Bogza: I don't have that one mentor that stayed in my life throughout many years. My life mentors came and went depending on the season of my career or of my musical training or my musical evolution. So, I've had mentors that came for a period, and they guided me through that process. Then there was another stage that came where somebody else would come up. Mentors would emerge from time to guide me in whatever stage of a musical development I was in.
[00:17:33] Tommy Thomas: Now did they see you and come along besides you, or did you recognize that you probably needed some tutelage in that area?
[00:17:44] Sergey Bogza: They emerged. There's that quote that says, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And so, for me, it was that a new phase of my career had entered and somehow God sent a mentor to appear, whether it was by way of a friendship or a meeting.
I've always been blessed with people coming into my life at the right moment. And I don't know why it's happening like this or why it has happened or turned out that way. But I'm forever grateful for the variety of mentors that have been present in my life.
[00:18:27] Tommy Thomas: So, I'm going to maybe use the metaphor that an orchestra or symphony is a team at some level.
I'd like to go into an ambitious project. What's the most ambitious thing you and your symphony or orchestra have ever undertaken? And how did you get the team to come around you?
[00:18:49] Sergey Bogza: I think probably the most ambitious project that I've ever done was my doctoral dissertation at the University of Minnesota.
I don't know of anyone who's ever done a project like this. The majority of times when you're getting your Doctor of Musical Arts, you'll write a paper and then you would conduct a concert, a shorter concert. What I've decided to do is to do a transcription of Richard Strauss tone poem, Don Quixote, which was originally written for about a hundred musicians.
And I wanted to distill it to about 16 to 17 musicians. So rewrite the entire piece that was written for a large orchestra, one of the great tone poems, distill it for 17 musicians, perform it in three different venues so I can get the acoustics feel for three different performances work with 17 talented musicians, hire a videographer, hire a photographer to capture this, and then based on all of that, rewrite the piece one more time.
[00:20:00] Sergey Bogza: So that way I would have something that I could sell, present, or rent for other orchestras to use. So that way other organizations that don't have a hundred-piece orchestra could use a chamber version of it. And so, when you're young and you've never done anything like this before, it can be really tricky and it was a difficult project and maybe to answer the question of how did we get the orchestra or in this case, chamber orchestra to pull this project off.
And the answer to that is, in this case, the leader, me, in this case, had to be 100 percent sold on the project and to provide leadership in all the areas of that project, whether it was musical, logistical, advertising leadership, novelty leadership. This was a novel project that we've done and probably in a span of three months of putting it all together.
[00:21:14] Sergey Bogza: The amount of life lessons I've learned on how to be a leader in difficult situations. There were times where I wanted to call the university and say, I'm done with this project. I don't want to do this anymore. This is too difficult.
But we followed through. We did the difficult stuff. There were opportunities to give up at every corner. But when it was all said and done, and then the dust settled, I really felt like I had a kind of a breaking moment, like I've entered a new level in my leadership skills and I was able to see, as I've described earlier, having a big picture.
[00:22:06] Sergey Bogza: But then also knowing all the small nuances and details and how they play into the big picture presentation and that ability going between big picture, small details, big picture, small details, and having that fluidity. And never losing the big picture for whatever little, small problems that come across was what made that project so successful, not only to that, but then to also commit clear communication to everyone involved of how those details are contributing to our eventual success in this project.
[00:22:49] Tommy Thomas: So, when you recruited your chamber members, were you recruiting peers in your mind? Were you recruiting maestros who might've been beyond you perhaps in their level?
[00:23:03] Sergey Bogza: No, I was recruiting peers. It was a peer orchestra. I was working with people who are my age. Students at the University of Minnesota. So, this was working with the professional musicians who just had years and years of experience. We were all doing it for the first time. Like we were developing a prototype, so to speak, a company prototype. And so, we were all new to this.
And even though we were all new, I was the leader. I have to guide people who are new to this. But also, I was new to this. So, it's okay, how do you navigate this? How do you keep the band together, so to speak, and not lose anyone, even though you are walking with a group in uncharted territory?
How do you find a way to inspire them and to not lose focus to the very end of the finish line?
[00:24:08] Tommy Thomas: But go to your having done this in a much different way, but having put together a doctoral dissertation and having to sell it to the committee. Did you have to sell this to the committee as something new or were they excited that you were going to break some new ground?
[00:24:26] Sergey Bogza: Oh yeah, there was, I knew that this was something different. I did have to convince a lot of people of the validity or why this project is important. Because frankly what I didn't want to do as a musician or as a conductor is to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours in front of a computer screen typing up a dissertation or doing a research project.
I wanted it to be a hands-on experience of working with musicians, writing this new arrangement, reserving a variety of venues, and advertising to get the public to come to these performances. It was a new project. And thankfully when it was all said and done, I had a product, I had a musical project that I was able to advertise and give it to other people.
And a variety of orchestras have hired that arrangement. And so, I just feel so thankful for having gone through that because whereas had I gone the traditional route, my dissertation would be collecting dust at some libraries, bookshelves, forever forgotten, but I have a project, a dissertation that is in circulation that are people finding useful, that there's a market for it.
[00:25:46] Sergey Bogza: And obviously it has worked out now. I didn't know it was going to work out. I thought it might be successful. It might completely fall through. And the committee would come back and say, redo the whole thing. We want to see a 30-page paper, but now to be a success. And it was a gamble. It was a risk-taking adventure and I'm glad it all worked out.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:26:08] Tommy Thomas: Next week, we continue the conversation with Sergey Bogza, where Sergey delves into the intricacies of assembling and leading an orchestra. He also shares his approach to understanding each member's skill set, making strategic decisions, and balancing the structured rigor of rehearsals with the freedom of a live performance. Anyone who might've thought, what can we learn about nonprofit leadership from a symphony director will not want to miss this episode.
Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO Panama City Symphony Website
Sergey Bogza’s Personal Website
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on LinkedIn Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Karen Marsdale: I might be a little bit averse to risks, but because I learned so early on by being really naive and thinking that my husband and I could run a business that really needed a lot more cash flow and ready cash that we just didn't have.
[00:00:13] Karen Marsdale: But because I failed and from that failure, we created success. And when I say success, we were able to get back on track and work hard and buy a house and send our kids to college. And, that early failure made me feel that if I could do that and come back from it, I'm not really afraid to fail.
[00:00:38] Tommy Thomas: This week, we're resuming the conversation we started last week with Karen Marsdale, the co-director of Hannah's Hope in Berks County, Pennsylvania. Hannah’s Hope is dedicated to helping women with children who are facing homelessness in Berks County. The primary focus is on women, who despite their current situation, sheltered potential and determination to rebuild their lives. Karen will also explain how she and her co-director have split senior leadership duties to play to their individual strengths. While this sometimes leads to complications, it's working wonderfully at Hannah's Hope. Let's pick up where we left off last week.
[00:01:25] Tommy Thomas: Give us a thumbnail sketch of Hannah's Hope and the trust that y'all have there in Berks County.
[00:01:31] Karen Marsdale: Okay, so I'm just going to give a little bit of an educational piece here for about two minutes in the world of homelessness. And we see it of course now. It's front and center everywhere we go in terms of, media or, in seeing people on the street. There's a continuum of homelessness.
[00:01:51] Karen Marsdale: And we teach people all the time that when you see one homeless person, there are people in the continuum that are chronically homeless. Those might be people who are addicted and they don't want to give up their addiction. They're going to be on the street. They're going to be in tent camps.
[00:02:06] Karen Marsdale: They're not going to be moved into the next .They're not somebody who has had one thing happen. And now they have become homeless. Then you have people who are homeless because of an incident or something that's happened in their life and they need a certain amount of care.
[00:02:23] Karen Marsdale: What we do at Hannah's is very focused on women with children who are in that place where they have abilities. And we have a very robust application process, three interviews. One of the interviews usually encompasses our trauma therapist, because she's getting from the where is this person in their mental health?
[00:02:48] Karen Marsdale: How do we check their mental health? We look at where they've been in terms of, have they ever had a job? So women that come to us and I say this, and it might sound a bit on feeling, but we're looking for women who you would say would be the advanced placement or the A+ women who find themselves in a homeless situation who really have the ability, the grit.
[00:03:12] Karen Marsdale: And again, when I say ability, it's not just the want to, but do they have the ability to learn skills that can help them to get a a job or go to classes that they can get training, some sort of basic training so that they can get a living wage job. So our goal is to take women for 12 to 18 months, teach them life skills.
[00:03:35] Karen Marsdale: Business skills, all the skills that they need. It can be things like even how to clean, how to cook. Essentially they might not have some of these skills, but they have some of them and they've not learned all of them. But we want to get them to a place ultimately where they can live independently for the rest of their lives with their children without necessarily having a mate. And one of the biggest problems that we see, particularly with women with children, and this is why there's domestic violence and abuse, is the fact that they've never had the background, or they've never had the family environment where they've been loved, nurtured, and cared for.
[00:04:24] Karen Marsdale: So they're always looking for love, as the saying goes, in all the wrong places. And it really, in the world of trauma, is called a trauma bond. So when people say, why does she keep going back to a domestic issue? It's because that's a bond she has, and to some degree, a woman feels comfortable there.
[00:04:42] Karen Marsdale: And she very well could have seen her mother, her grandmother. It is now generational, probably three generations of homelessness. And when I say homelessness, it's, it could be, I'm living with an aunt. I'm living with somebody who acts as a relative in the Hispanic community, especially which we deal with a great deal of, there's always these extended family people who are not really relatives.
[00:05:07] Karen Marsdale: So I'm living on my aunt's couch. I'm living with my cousin. That is homelessness. So they may have been living that way, all their lives with a parent. So we're very selective. If a woman has an addiction issue, we are not a facility to be able to help them with that.
[00:05:28] Karen Marsdale: We try to guide them to the right places in our community, but we have a very narrow band of what we're looking for in Hannah's Hope, because we really want you to be a success, and we're looking for those who can be successful. So it's vetting. It's a vetting process. I like to say, and when I talk briefly about this, I'll say, three women in the past 12 months have bought their own homes.
[00:05:52] Karen Marsdale: And these are women who would say, I never thought I could even own a car. Or even get a license. Our program is, like I said, it's very robust. They have to be in programming four nights a week, in other words, classes, budgeting, parenting, trauma therapy, Bible study, and spiritual growth.
[00:06:16] Karen Marsdale: And then there's always things going on beyond that. They have responsibilities like cooking for the house. So that could be up to 18 to 20 people that they're cooking for a couple times a month. Taking turns, they have to clean, they have to clean the entire home, which is two levels.
[00:06:32] Karen Marsdale: It's not easy. And then they have to go to work and then they have to be in class and their children are in classes. We feel that one of the problems in the whole shelter movement that has happened is sometimes it's been more about the women than the children.
[00:06:50] Karen Marsdale: So children are just drug along and they're in as much trauma as the parent. So we help the children if they need extra services through school or through some of the resources in the community. We just had a little guy who came in who was nonverbal. He is now getting extra help.
[00:07:07] Karen Marsdale: We found out he was actually tongue tied, literally. So he has to have the tongue snipped to be able to really speak. And he's doing fabulously. But I would say in most shelters, he would just be sitting in the room, maybe going to get daycare or whatever, but he wouldn't have a case manager, at his age.
[00:07:27] Karen Marsdale: So we try to, because every child that comes to us is always below what they should be in terms of their age range. So they're navigating and learning at a much lower level than they should be. And that's just because they've been homeless and drugged from one couch to another for their lifetime.
[00:07:46] Tommy Thomas: In your current work and probably back at the chamber you had some experience in developing the next generation of leaders. Give me, from your perspective, give me some keys to bringing this next generation along.
[00:07:59] Karen Marsdale: That's a good question. And, again there's I think I, this was just intuitively who I was.
[00:08:08] Karen Marsdale: I want to give opportunity to folks, and particularly in the work I've done, it's been primarily women, although I've had men who've worked under me. I want people to grow and to learn how to lead themselves, meaning I want to give them responsibility, according to what their skills are right now, and give them the opportunity to feel like they can make some of those decisions that they need to make to become a leader that I know they could be.
[00:08:45] Karen Marsdale: And if I hired somebody that wasn't up to that kind of skill level, maybe they were great at doing another type of job. And I was always looking for those who probably didn't know within themselves that they had the ability to do much more than they thought they could.
[00:09:02] Karen Marsdale: So I'm looking at what I always said. I don't want you to come to me with a problem. I want you to identify a problem and then come to me with a solution. And then you will then exercise on that. And that problem will be solved because you solved it.
[00:09:22] Karen Marsdale: And then you could execute according to what you've uncovered and discovered.
[00:09:28] Karen Marsdale: Even if somebody fails, a few times of doing this and they come back and say I thought that this was the answer. You say let's go back and relook at what went wrong in the process. And I just, I'm going to have to do this right.
[00:09:40] Karen Marsdale: Currently with a situation that I just found out about this morning. And I'm thinking in my mind of how I'm going to go to this individual and say, you jumped the gun on this and this is the outcome. And I had to step in and take care of it. But how could we have, how could you have done it differently next time?
[00:09:59] Karen Marsdale: And I always felt, and years later, people will say, to do it. You are such a mentor to me and I take that so that's such a compliment. I take that with a lot of humility because, you have an expectation as a leader from whomever you're reporting to. And so those behind you, you really have an expectation for them and if they don't deliver, it's on you, it's not on them.
[00:10:23] Karen Marsdale: But I just think like that, that confidence that they have, that you have their back. You are loyal and especially, they've earned it, so you have to earn it, but it's that loyalty, it's that humility, it's leading from behind, making sure they have the opportunity. I've had women go on to do much more complicated things and in larger companies than I did.
[00:10:49] Karen Marsdale: But they said, you were the one that gave me this feeling of confidence that I could do it.
[00:10:56] Karen Marsdale: Does that make sense?
[00:10:58] Tommy Thomas: It does. And it reminds me of an article I read on team building. And the writer said, identify your evangelist, those people in your obsession who love to work, work for them is not a job, but a source of excitement, reward them, give them a platform.
[00:11:13] Tommy Thomas: So you would resonate with that?
[00:11:16] Karen Marsdale: Absolutely. And you know what, is a leader born or do you make a leader? And I think it's a bit of both. But someone has to come with an innate desire that work is a passion and they don't watch the clock. And it's not that you ever take advantage of people, but you'll sense them.
[00:11:38] Karen Marsdale: You'll sense who they are. You're evangelists. And then you work with them. There's nothing, there's no greater reward or feeling to see those evangelists do really well.
[00:11:50] Tommy Thomas: Do you have a favorite interview question or an interview question that's really worked to help you get below the surface?
[00:11:59] Karen Marsdale: When I get below the surface, I will ask somebody, why would you want to come to work here?
[00:12:04] Karen Marsdale: Is there something about this place? When we get into ministry work, I think it's a little bit different because there is absolutely no denying that people have to come. Because this is a calling. It's not a job, but they also have to have the skills. If you're a case manager, you have to have those skills, but then you come because there's something here.
[00:12:31] Karen Marsdale: And I've had people say that there is something here that is different from where I've worked in the secular world and at the chamber. I think, again, because we were so much part of the community and people knew us, saw us. Were involved with us, whether it be my company's involved and I bond and they people I'd love to work at the chamber and I think oftentimes they would think it's just, oh, you could just go to meetings and you meet with people and your network is let me tell you about the work that happens behind the screen.
[00:13:03] Karen Marsdale: There again, I would ask somebody, why would you, why do you really want to come here to work. And that answer is very important. Very important.
[00:13:14] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to employee turnover for a minute. What have you done over time to reduce or mitigate employee turnover?
[00:13:23] Karen Marsdale: I'm going to say, and I feel very how can I say, I didn't have a lot of employee turnover, either at the chamber.
[00:13:33] Karen Marsdale: We're now at Hannah's Hope and I've been at Hannah's for about five to six years in this position of first interim director and now co-director. And I think it's because I feel I have a pretty good ability to hire well. And when I've not, when I've had a, okay, we really have to have someone in this position.
[00:13:54] Karen Marsdale: I've not found my evangelist. I have not found my A player, but I'm going to hire B. It typically, down the road, it's, we have to have a parting of the ways. And the turnover primarily, I will tell you in the chamber for me was because we were such a unique organization that people got so much exposure in the community, in the business, and even the nonprofit community that when someone came in and they started to develop and people would see who they were and what they were doing, people just picked them off.
[00:14:34] Karen Marsdale: And I had more, there were more times that I'd have somebody come into my office, particularly women, close the door and start to cry and say, Karen, I got this great offer from, and I'm like, that is wonderful. That is great. That's what I want for you. Make sure they pay you what you're worth, so that I think and at Hannah's we've had very little turnover.
[00:14:54] Karen Marsdale: I've had to say goodbye to one individual, but I gave this person a lot of, I wanted to coach and mentor, and she didn't want that. And we came to a place that just, it wasn't going to work.
[00:15:08] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we learn a lot when we fail. And if that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:15:16] Karen Marsdale: I think it's ego. I think it's fear. I think it's what will I ever do if I fail? And so that, therefore I think people don't take risks. And I might be a little bit averse to risks, but because I learned so early on by being really naive and thinking that, my husband and I could run a business that really needed a lot more cash flow and ready cash that we just didn't have.
[00:15:40] Karen Marsdale: But because I failed and from that failure, we created success. And when I say success, we were able to get back on track and work hard and buy a house and send our kids to college. And, that early failure made me feel that if I could do that and come back from it, I'm not really afraid to fail.
[00:16:04] Karen Marsdale: I really have really very little ego. The biggest challenge I will tell you, in my years of both in chamber work a little bit in corporate work, small business. And now in the world that I'm living in at Hannah's is my almost fear of failure.
[00:16:23] Karen Marsdale: Because Hannah's Hope, about six and a half, seven years ago was not in a good place financially. We knew what we were doing in terms of what our mission was, but we relied too much and this is so non profit, this can be the case.
[00:16:46] Karen Marsdale: Leaning on a few people financially and not worrying or not doing the work that you always have to do, which is knock on a thousand doors and ask a thousand people to help you do this work together, and so we weren't very well known. We didn't have a lot of income coming in on a routine basis, like monthly donors, etc.
[00:17:06] Karen Marsdale: And we had to start from scratch with that, and, my name is behind it, and I know a lot of people, so I will not fail. We cannot fail at this. And it's a little bit challenging for me right now. I think I have a little bit of PTSD, and we're doing very well and we've got great outcomes.
[00:17:27] Karen Marsdale: We'd like to have a hundred percent, but we're dealing with people and people in very critical places in life. So you're not going to, not every woman is going to want to stick with this program and become and they want independence, but they don't want to work hard enough for it.
[00:17:42] Karen Marsdale: But fear of failure is, I think the thing that has, it has led some people to not have, not do the things that they really, that God has given them the gifts to do. Because they're just too comfortable.
[00:18:01] Tommy Thomas: If you were writing a book on the burdens of leadership that only the CEO can bear, what would be some of the chapters in your book?
[00:18:15] Karen Marsdale: I think the first would be and you've heard this, but it's lonely at the top or how, what does it mean when the buck stops with you? What does that really mean? Do you want that? Or, like a whole chapter on when things happen, it rolls downhill and you're going to have it.
[00:18:40] Karen Marsdale: I think another, and I, my mother always said to me, and it's scriptural, like there's nothing new under the sun. So when you look at things, you need to understand that a leader is one who can, how can you find your evangelist? And then how do you know when to get out of the way and let them lead?
[00:19:05] Karen Marsdale: I have seen more people because of ego and self importance. So this is really a lesson for a leader and a CEO. How do I make sure that I'm hiring people that could be smarter than me and be secure with that, be secure to hire better people than yourself. So those are a couple chapters that I would have.
[00:19:33] Tommy Thomas: You have the current role of current director at Hannah's and I've seen that work before and and I've seen it not work. Sure. How are y'all doing it?
[00:19:44] Karen Marsdale: We just incorporated this model as of January. And I will tell you really, again a young woman was, everyone's young to me.
[00:19:53] Karen Marsdale: So she's in her forties. She's primed to want, this is a passion of hers. She's got a lot of skills that she probably didn't even realize she had. And so really what I'm doing, Tommy, is we've fallen into this where she works. She works really in the clinical, I might say, like managing the case manager.
[00:20:15] Karen Marsdale: And again, we're small. The org chart isn't very deep. So I try to find myself being her mentor. And she'll make a decision or she'll make a suggestion or, and she'll be, and it'll be more in the clinical sort of the mom's suggestion, like how are we managing this individual?
[00:20:36] Karen Marsdale: And every day, because we're so deep with these families in every aspect of their lives, that things will come up that we have to discuss and make a decision on but I will let Mary, even if we disagree slightly, I'll let her make that decision. And I'm trying to stay in the world of development, making connections.
[00:20:59] Karen Marsdale: Doing what I naturally did at the chamber. I just did all of that, but staying away from her area of having made decisions about them. When I say clinical, that's talking about case management and what the area that is not my wheelhouse. Some of it you become to know, you come to know pieces because it's just logical and intuitive with an application but we work very well together because ultimately, and this is where I think there's a little bit of a difference between, in there's another nonprofit in our area, which is quite large.
[00:21:34] Karen Marsdale: And they have co directors, and I actually met with the one gal, the one co director, a couple of months ago, and I was actually on some things that we were, I wanted to get clarity on what they were doing, because they sent a woman to us, and it was not a good ending. And so I said, Peggy, how does it work with you and your co director?
[00:21:53] Karen Marsdale: And she said they had an executive director for years, she and this other woman were doing parts of the in parts of the organization, which were very different parts. And she said when the executive director retired, the executive director came and said, I think you two would make great co directors because you work well together.
[00:22:12] Karen Marsdale: You both have your own areas of expertise and it's worked well. And the one is most definitely the face of that organization. And that often happens too. And particularly in nonprofit work, and I've said this to our board when they would say your interim now, isn't about time we get a director.
[00:22:31] Karen Marsdale: And I said, first of all, we're faith based. I believe that God brings the fruit. God will bring the right person. I may not be able to find them. It's not like that, I'm looking for an accountant and I'm in an accounting firm. When Mary came, it was a, God, this is the next executive director, or the next director, when I really can move into, or, again, I want her to be the director, and I think that, that is what we're doing, we're very open.
[00:23:00] Karen Marsdale: Mary, you'll need to take the helm and run this organization. Whether I'm behind you doing some work for you or whether the Lord takes me home or whatever, it's our plan. And this is our succession plan really.
[00:23:21] Karen Marsdale: And boy, you know what, it's like when people don't have a succession plan in a business, particularly small to midsize family owned businesses. So that's why I look at the co director and we keep saying we've got to sit down. We're running with scissors. But we've got to sit down and say, okay, this is really my area.
[00:23:39] Karen Marsdale: Karen's area. This is Mary's area, but we just intertwined so well. And she really feels and says, because people will come up and say, you're very fortunate to have Karen as your, you know, mentor. And she knows it. And I'm not saying that. Please know I'm not bragging.
[00:23:56] Karen Marsdale: So does that make sense to you? It's really a succession plan. But in order to have her seen in the community as my equal, I felt we needed co directorship titles.
[00:24:14] Tommy Thomas: It sounds like you got, yeah, your example and your friend's example, you got two of them in the area that seemed to be working.
[00:24:21] Tommy Thomas: So that's good news.
[00:24:24] Karen Marsdale: Yes, it doesn't always work. And because honestly, and truly, I, very rarely would I ever say that I've seen the only time I've seen businesses where they won't make a decision, particularly in family owned businesses where succession planning, and nobody wants to say, where my husband worked for a company like this, and actually our last governor of the state was, it was his family owned business, they could not make a decision on who would be president so they rotated two brothers and a brother in law.
[00:24:54] Karen Marsdale: That was a disaster and of course it would be. And so I would be more leery of that than I am. You know when it's right. But most times it's not up to say that.
[00:25:06] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. So you serve obviously at the chamber, you work with boards. You report to a board. Now you serve on several boards. How did your first nonprofit board come to pass?
[00:25:15] Karen Marsdale: The first nonprofit board and because the chamber is nonprofit, I did a stint for about a year and a half as the interim president of the chamber because we had a CEO that left through marriage and a move and nobody was in place when this all happened. So the search committee took about a little over a year to find some of them.
[00:25:45] Karen Marsdale: So that was my first board, the chamber board.
[00:25:49] Karen Marsdale: It was pretty overwhelming. It was a good board. And the reality was the chamber was very well run. And the role of the board versus the role of the staff was very defined. So there was not an issue there.
[00:26:02] Karen Marsdale: So I think I sailed into a place where it was just, I needed to make sure that everything was being kept very much in alignment with what had been done well for so long. And I think it was really the first CEO that I worked for who really made that happen.
[00:26:24] Karen Marsdale: And working at the chamber, we also did a lot of work with nonprofits. We partnered on a lot of things with others like universities in the area who do nonprofit courses and our community foundation that does a lot with, how do you create a good board?
[00:26:38] Karen Marsdale: How do you manage? What's the role of a board? So I had seen terrible situations. And seeing nonprofits dissolve, that's probably the biggest issue. And especially today because people don't want to volunteer. Going to paid boards is a whole different ball game, but too many nonprofits are not training their board of directors to know this is what you do. And this is what you don't do. And the two should not be confused. With the chamber board, I was a little, I just was always just hyper vigilant when it came to, okay, what needs to be done, get that agenda and all the notes out on time, make sure that everything is everybody's ready to report.
[00:27:35] Karen Marsdale: It was a couple million dollars in operating budget and so it was not complicated, but for me, I just stepped into the role. I wasn't mentored into the role.
[00:27:51] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, give me, maybe give me some words and phrases that would describe a good board chair.
[00:27:57] Karen Marsdale: First of all they know that they are the major advocate for this organization.
[00:28:03] Karen Marsdale: They represent the organization to the public. They're also in the role of being a board chair, you want every one of your board members to understand and make sure that they clearly understand. Their position, their role. And this is very hard.
[00:28:20] Karen Marsdale: It's volunteers. Don't like to tell other volunteers, when you pay somebody, you can tell them they're not doing a good job and they better do it or else, there's going to be consequences. It's hard for a volunteer to tell another volunteer, but I think they have to have the ability to say, you know what, Joe, you've missed three meetings, do you feel like perhaps you don't have enough time for this board?
[00:28:39] Karen Marsdale: Because this is not acceptable. So a good board, a good chairman of the board makes sure that the board is doing what a board does. You don't do the job of the staff. You never call a staff person directly. You talk to the executive director or the director.
[00:29:02] Karen Marsdale: And a good board chair person always protects. And this is when things are running well and everybody's really doing their job. You always protect your executive director, president whatever the lead person is in your organization. Now, I will tell you, Tommy, this is where we have not, the thing that we're doing, and again, we're a young organization, Hannah's Hope.
[00:29:26] Karen Marsdale: We are constantly looking for, I would say, more qualified people on our board. And I actually act as the board president too, which really is not the best scenario. So I'm always cognizant of making sure that our board, which is only seven people, is very much aware of everything that I'm doing.
[00:30:10] Karen Marsdale: I want to make sure that they're aware of everything that we're doing and so that they can feel very comfortable that they don't have to get involved. And it's really, it's an art and a skill to create a really good working board.
[00:30:29] Karen Marsdale: And there's a difference between the working board and an advisory board. And some of our folks think they're just advising. And so I've had to very diplomatically say we're going to expect some action on your part when it comes to, say an event or something of that nature, or fundraising, and every board member should be able to make an ask for your organization and not say I don't know anybody.
[00:30:58] Tommy Thomas: So let's bring this thing to a close. I got 2, 3, 4, shorter questions. Maybe. What's the best compliment anybody's ever paid you?
[00:31:10] Karen Marsdale: I think the compliment I've been paid from an individual was I am just so grateful that you stepped in to Hannah's Hope and turned the ship around.
[00:31:29] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
[00:31:34] Karen Marsdale: There was a man who ran a steel company here. They had probably about 5,000 employees. And one time, this is just so simple, but it's so true. And he said, you get in trouble for what you say. Not for what you don't say. And that might just sound very basic. But when you think about people will say things, and if you move that down the path, sometimes it can be very, you don't mean to do it, but you're gossiping, you're throwing someone under the bus.
[00:32:09] Karen Marsdale: This man happened to be a believer and he was just so well respected in our community. But he was speaking at the chamber. He said, I learned a long time ago, you get in trouble for what you say and not for what you don't say.
[00:32:21] Karen Marsdale: So if you think it's not worth saying, if you think I shouldn't say this, don't say it. And that's easy, it can be a big part of life.
[00:32:33] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you say?
[00:32:40] Karen Marsdale: I guess I would say have confidence in yourself.
[00:32:44] Karen Marsdale: You're going to be something that you never thought you were going to be, or could be. And, so there again, it goes back to the fear of failure. And never giving up.
[00:32:58] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Karen Marsdale: I wanted to be a ballet dancer and I was very serious and was in ballet lessons and modern dance lessons almost every day of the week by the time I was in junior high.
I went to dance camp in the summer, went to the University of Connecticut for a summer with the Martha Graham School of Dance. And then after my senior year of high school, I spent six years in New York doing a program with the Joffrey School of Ballet. My ultimate dream was to go to Juilliard.
I did not make the cut. And I think that should have been a little bit of a signal because it's like dance is professional sports one in, how many million really become the prima ballerina at the New York city ballet.
+++++++++++++++
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Karen Marsdale, a longtime contributor to the economic vibrancy of Berks County, Pennsylvania.
Karen spent almost 27 years in senior leadership roles with the Reading Chamber of Commerce and Industry before joining Hannah's Hope as co-executive director. She took her BA in fashion merchandising and business management from Stevens College and serves on the boards of several nonprofits in and around Berks County.
Karen, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:16] Karen Marsdale: Thank you, Tommy. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:02:20] Tommy Thomas: I'm a huge fan of all that a well-led Chamber of Commerce can do over the years I've observed, what good things happen when the Chamber takes a role in promoting economics and also when they take a role in incorporating the non-profit sector into the life of a community because I think that's important.
When I learned of your background, I just jumped at the chance to have somebody who's done that and then migrated over into the role with Hannah's Hope. Again, thank you for joining us. Now before we dig too deep into your multi-pronged career, let's go back towards the beginning.
Take me into your childhood and what two or three things do you remember that maybe has contributed to you being the person you are today?
[00:03:06] Karen Marsdale: I'm an only child. And so that in the era that I was born and raised, that was a bit unique because big families were more the norm then than they are now.
I think one of the things that kind of charted my course was I was always around adults primarily. Now we did live near relatives, so I had cousins and aunts and uncles, you spend most of your time with your family, meaning your parents. And so, I think that being an only child did not only, particularly for my mother, have the, maybe the opportunity, sometimes it didn't feel so opportunistic to have someone who was just looking at you as the in, the child that they're raising and nurturing.
[00:03:52] Karen Marsdale: So sometimes I might've felt a little bit overwhelmed, but when you're an only child, I've read books on birth order etc. And one thing that I learned from that was an only child is like a firstborn times three.
When you're an only child it is like being a firstborn times three. You tend to be alpha; you tend to be a leader.
[00:04:09] Karen Marsdale: So, you tend to be alpha, you tend to be a leader. And I'm not saying these things to say, this is who I am. It's just this is often what happens. My mother was a bit sensitive. And so I was sensitive. I know I got my feelings hurt a lot.
And mother was not exactly grin and bear it. It was oh, you poor thing. So, I think, and that was a lot about her background. And it's just so interesting. And now today, especially, my work at hand as you see how much background in childhood impacts the life and the trajectory of an individual.
I do remember one time I broke my arm, and my father was rough and tumble and praise many was a welder and, oh, you're fine, you'll be fine. And my mother then took me to the hospital. I got it casted up and I almost waited all day for my father to come home, jump in the driveway and say, see, I told you. It’s funny little things that you remember when you're in elementary school.
Those are some of the things I remember.
[00:05:17] Tommy Thomas: What'd you want to be when you grew up?
Karen Marsdale: Oh, my word. This is something that when I tell people, they're like, really, if they've never known this, or we've never talked about it.
I became interested in ballet in about fifth grade after about four years of taking classes and not liking them because I really, and this taught me a great lesson, which I'll talk about in a minute. I wanted to be a ballet dancer and I was very serious and was in ballet lessons and modern dance lessons almost every day of the week by the time I was in junior high.
[00:05:48] Karen Marsdale: And I went to dance camp in the summer, went to the University of Connecticut for a summer with the Martha Graham School of Dance. And then, after my senior year of high school, I spent six years in New York doing a program with the Joffrey School of Ballet. My ultimate dream was to go to Juilliard.
I did not make the cut. And I think that should have been a little bit of a signal because it's like dance is professional sports one in, how many million really become the prima ballerina at the New York city ballet. So, I did go to Stevens College. My first year, I was a dance major.
They had a good program, went there and then changed my major, but all through those years of especially junior high into senior high. And then towards senior high, I was teaching some classes at the dance school that I went to, and I had an excellent teacher.
Like sports, dance teaches discipline. You have to show up and work hard.
[00:06:42] Karen Marsdale: She was a mentor. And I'll tell you what it taught me was number one, discipline. Because discipline and dance is as much discipline as it is, excuse me, in the sports world. You have to show up and work out. It taught me discipline. On a Saturday morning, if I didn't want to get up and go to a dance class at 8 or 9 o'clock, I still had to go.
The other thing it taught me, because through dance, I also did, in our small community, we had community theater. I am totally tone deaf, so I can't sing. I couldn't be in, and when I was in musicals, and I did do some relatively, one in particular, I did a relatively important part in a musical.
Community theater taught me stage presence. I can speak to a thousand people because I am not really speaking to a thousand people, I am looking at and speaking to a particular person on the front row.
[00:07:25] Karen Marsdale: So, I had to learn lines. When it came to the, just to the music, I just would lip sync, but it taught me a bit of stage presence that still to this day is very useful because I've often said I can speak to a thousand people and not being really terribly nervous because you learned that you're not really speaking to a thousand people.
You're looking at somebody in the front row. And so I can do that. And sometimes I think it's less intimidating for me to speak to that group of an audience when we're doing a what, through the chamber. And we had some events that had over a thousand people, and I could get up and speak.
[00:08:09] Karen Marsdale: And it was probably easier than speaking to the board of directors, when I speak about something that was a bit challenging. So that, just folks don't realize the things that kiddos can gain from being in different types of activity.
[00:08:27] Tommy Thomas: So, you graduated, you had maybe decided that the dance was not going to be totally your career. What happened then?
[00:08:37] Karen Marsdale: You mean after high school? Rather after college, right? Yeah. Okay. So, after college this is really again, something that is, typically someone gets a job looking at their major, etc. But what my husband and I did, and I will tell you, I was married after my junior year of college. My husband had come back from Vietnam. We went back to where I was at Stevens College in Columbia, Missouri.
He did a year at the University of Missouri to finish up his degree. And then we took a funny, rather interesting term because we went back to our hometown and maybe this was the best thing or the worst thing we did, but we bought a small business, and it was really in the area of, and again, your understanding, it's back in the seventies, it was a woman's boutique.
We sold some small, but we also sold fashion. We saw fashions, we sold gift items, we sold accessories. And my background in fashion merchandising. We decided to do this. My parents wanted us to do it. I think only children who think about this, come back home. Don't go a thousand miles away for work.
[00:09:43] Karen Marsdale: So, we were in our own business for about eight years. And my husband also took a sort of a crash course while we were there in our hometown in upholstery. So, he opened up his own business. Here's two 20 some year olds in their own businesses and they're not second-generation family businesses.
So, it was a great experience. We were going to New York on buying trips. We were meeting with sales reps. We were hiring people. We only had a staff, mostly part time of about five people. And it was a great experience. I look back now and think, through my life it really made us the people that we are because it did not turn out particularly well.
[00:10:27] Karen Marsdale: Maybe we were more naive than we thought. And after about eight years, we had to liquidate the business. We tried selling it. It was not a good time in our community. And so, we weren't able to sell the business. By this time we had two kids and a house and we had to liquidate everything to pay off our debt, and I'm very open to tell the story.
Our first business failed. We had to liquidate everything to pay off our debt. We walked away with less than a thousand dollars. We moved to Reading, Pennsylvania and started over.
[00:10:47] Karen Marsdale: We had to pay off all our debt. We walked away with under a thousand dollars. We moved to Reading, Pennsylvania, where I had some family and uncle and his family. And my husband had gotten a job prior to before we moved, and we started all over again. And we were still young enough to, it was a blow, and it was emotionally challenging, but we just picked ourselves up and said, you know what we've got is ourselves.
And we both have skills that we can hone and give to someone. And one thing that it taught me, and this is why I think my career at the chamber was so rewarding and why I understood to some degree what it takes for a small business owner, because if you've never signed the front of the paycheck and had to make payroll, you don't know what it is.
[00:11:42] Karen Marsdale: To really understand what business is all about, even the smallest of businesses. So that was a great life lesson. Amazing. And I just feel that everyone needs to take everything they do as part of a life lesson to move to wherever they go from there.
[00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: So how did you get involved with the Chamber of Commerce?
[00:12:07] Karen Marsdale: Okay. So that was a little bit down the road. When we first came here, I did a couple of jobs that were, I would say not temporary, but not what I would think would be my career. Again, it's that world of knowing people who know people and networking, which I just can't say enough for knowing people and networking and being a true person that cares about others and networking in that fashion.
So, I had a very dear friend. She's still my best friend to this day, 40 years later, she was on the board of the chamber of commerce and a small business owner, had a couple of businesses. She is a very outspoken wonderful individual, with great high moral character. She went to our then CEO and my first CEO of the chamber and said there was an opening.
There was not an opening. But she went to him and said, I have a friend and if you hire her, I'm going to guarantee she's going to make you look good. And I had an invitation to speak with the CEO. We had a great conversation, not really an interview. He said, you know what, Karen, I don't have anything right now.
[00:13:19] Karen Marsdale: He said, but the next time there's an opening that you seem to be would fit, he said, I'm going to call you. And within, I think three weeks, he called me because the director of marketing gave her notice and was going someplace else. And he called me in, and he said, do you want the job? And I said, absolutely.
I didn't even ask what the salary was. We negotiated that after I got the job, it was crazy. But so that was my introduction to the chamber world.
[00:13:46] Tommy Thomas: At that time, I guess you had a staff when y'all were in the retail business, but yeah, think back to the first time you really had a group of people reporting to you, what kind of memories do you have of that?
[00:14:00] Karen Marsdale: It was challenging because again, we, most of the women that worked for me, and they were women, obviously, it was a woman's boutique, as they would call it back then, were much older, they were my mother's age, some of them might have been a little bit older. But I think what made them respect me as this small business owner was the fact that I respected them and got to know them and cared about them and their families.
And we were a team together doing this work. And they chose to be working where they were because they really enjoyed the atmosphere, the customer experience. And, I was a rookie, you're 23 and you're managing people who are 55 years old and you're just, I think one of the keys is you always have to respect those who are working for you while making it clear what the expectations are of the job.
Servant leadership doesn’t mean you’re anybody’s lacky. It means you put that person first and find the greatness in them.
[00:15:01] Karen Marsdale: But leading as I call it and, servant leadership, which doesn't mean that you're anybody's lacky, but it means that you put that person first and you find the greatness in them and help them. When that happens, I think I just did it at first, not knowing necessarily what I was doing.
I was thrown into that. And my husband is also, he's an extremely intuitive person. He was the partner in the business. So, we did this as a team. And I think that was a good mix that we were both there working with and managing this small staff of people who really wanted us to succeed.
It just, it was organic, I think.
+++++++++++++++
[00:15:49] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you and a team have ever undertaken and how did it work out?
[00:15:57] Karen Marsdale: So, I will tell you, fast forward to the Chamber of Commerce. And one of the things that I loved about the Chamber is very entrepreneurial.
Now that does not mean that I didn't have to work really hard. I should say entrepreneurs work. They never don't work. I think that's the thing that I loved about that and small business owners and people who were growing businesses, but I was in a position of leadership. I had earned it. I had proven myself, and I had some really great women in leadership in the community.
[00:16:26] Karen Marsdale: And we just began to see that our women's programs at the chamber and most chambers will have some kind of women's programs, quote unquote. And they said, we're not really, we're just doing the same old thing and having a luncheon and, then people go away and, oh, that was great, but how does it help me in the workplace? So, we undertook to take, basically, a year to create an organization and this is how it was defined. It was an organization within another organization. And so, we created what we called Women to Women, and that was an organization within the chamber.
[00:17:05] Karen Marsdale: We had our own programming, our own model. And it was really to help women in the workplace find their skills. And how could we help them move into leadership roles and again, from my background and from who I am as a person, this was never meant to be. And this is why I think it was so successful and why even men in the community said this is the greatest thing to really have a place where women can feel safe.
They can build and develop skills and training because it was never women against men. These were not, we were not looking at men as chauvinists. Men and women can work together so well, and women at the table bring so much to the table. That was the essential foundation of what Women to Women was about.
[00:18:01] Karen Marsdale: It was very hard work. I went out and got businesses to underwrite the work of what we were doing. We built our own membership within the membership of the Chamber, and it was a huge success. And I can remember we worked so hard. And that was not only getting the credibility of what we were doing, but pushing the sort of boundaries of we're going to do our own programming aside, along with the chamber that your chambers often do workshops, etc.
But we really had some amazing successes. And we get a national speaker woman to come in. In the beginning of the fall of the year to kick off the whole year of training and development. And there were companies that joined the Chamber in order to be part of Women to Women.
[00:18:53] Karen Marsdale: And to this day, it is the most successful program in their over 100 years. And it's going strong. And as a matter of fact, I'll just tell you a little aside. Last night, I was at a function, a gala for a nonprofit and sitting with a group of younger women, and the one woman said, I was just at lunch, and I overheard a group of women behind me, and they were talking about Women to Women.
And she said, I wanted to lean over and say I know the founder. And again, Tommy, this is a big deal in a small market. So, I'm not talking about a national movement, but I had chambers around the country call and ask, how did you do this? I don't think I could ever get our board to do it.
[00:19:36] Karen Marsdale: And I'd say, yeah, you know what? You have to keep working and working. I hate to say it, but it's true. Primarily made up of men. We'll embrace this. And see the value and say, this helps my company because I have women that I want to promote to leadership or their women in leadership.
And there's all kinds of things we did mentor programs, lean in circles from Cheryl Sandberg from Facebook, who wrote this whole curriculum on, how do women navigate in the world of business. There were all kinds of things going on. And still are. And I will say one thing that a staff person I'm still in contact with, and she's done amazing things, moved from the chamber to other nonprofit work in development.
And she said to me one day, this is really hard. And I said, yeah, Carolyn, this is very hard, but if it was easy, wouldn't everybody be doing it? That's just my mantra.
++++++++++++++++
[00:20:32] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned you had to go out and get your funding and I've noticed on the Hannah's Hope website, y'all have what seems to be a very robust corporate community of sponsors. What did you learn about fundraising during those early days?
Everybody is in sales. Even if you are the receptionist in the dentist office, you are selling something. We must develop that mindset.
[00:20:47] Karen Marsdale: Okay. The thing is, I'll just say this one thing, everybody is in sales. I don't care what you do. If you're picking up the phone at the dentist's office and you're saying hello and you're selling something. And so therefore, we all have to have that kind of mindset.
I learned very quickly that you're going to get more no's than you are yeses, and you have to believe in what you're doing. So I took that to heart and I really don't give up on things.
[00:21:19] Karen Marsdale: So again, if I know that this is good for people, I know this is good for your company to be a part of say Women to Women, or now Hannah's Hope Ministries. If I know, because what we're doing is so important, I want you to be a part of it. And you need to assist us in making an investment in what we're doing.
And that's how I always really knew that you have to get as much value as the customer as we're getting, as the product. A good thing to remember is you need to, if you're getting those, you're doing a good job because you're going to get more no's than yeses.
[00:22:02] Karen Marsdale: But again, and I, and a dear friend of mine who was a major player in the banking world here, a female, said, it's just a matter of the numbers. If you make this many calls, you're going to get this many no's. And now again, this is not just, this is saying you've got a good product. You understand your product.
In sales you will get a lot of nos. There is an old saying – “is this no for now or no forever”.
It's beneficial to the customer. You're going to get no's. And you know the old saying, is it no for now or no forever. And so you hang up the phone and say, okay, that was a no. Let me make three more phone calls and I might get a yes. And I always wanted to end the day saying, gosh, I should have made those three phone calls.
[00:22:38] Karen Marsdale: I'm going to make those phone calls before I leave the office. And so even with Hannah's Hope, quite frankly, I don't want to say it's an easy sale, but what it is, it's an investment. And it's funny cause I just sent an email to somebody who people say, you're never going to get him.
And he's one of the premier car dealerships in our community. And I sit on a board with him and it's like I'm not going away, John. So the reality is, let's have a conversation because I know you want to invest in people. You have the fortitude to do this and not take it personally when someone says no.
[00:23:15] Karen Marsdale: And again, I don't take it personally and I just move on to the next. And then I go back to that person. And yeah, I might not be making sense but again it's how successful people have to do this. It just doesn't come easily.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Next week, we'll continue the conversation with Karen. In that conversation you'll learn about the comprehensive programs at Hannah's Hope that empower women to achieve independent living, Karen's innovative leadership and mentorship strategies, and how Karen and her co-director are making the model of co-director work in an amazing way. I hope you will join us for that conversation.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Andrea Buczynski - recently retired Global Vice President for Leadership Development and Human Resources at Cru. Her narrative is a testament to the power of purpose driven leadership. Throughout the podcast, Andrea emphasizes the value of teamwork in collaboration. Her story is particularly inspiring for those interested in how personal values and professional demands intersect in nonprofit leadership. Her journey illustrates how embracing change fosters a supportive team environment. And maintaining a clear focus on organizational and personal goals are crucial for effective leadership. Let's pick up where we left off last week.
++++++++++++++++++=
[00:00:52] Tommy Thomas:: When I was talking to Dee Dee Wilson, she's going to be a guest here in probably three or four weeks, but she was talking about this and I'm sure y'all have a name for it, but this peer group of women that both of you and I guess up to 15 other people are a member of, a peer-to-peer kind of iron sharpens iron kind of thing. I'm guessing. Tell us about that and maybe how y'all got into that. What it's been like.
[00:01:17] Andrea Buczynski: Yeah, the group is called Arête Executive Women of Influence. And it's a by invitation membership and we ascribe to a common set of values.
We espouse Christian values as leaders and are committed to confidentiality. And so, what that does is it creates a common experience and a safe environment. And I'll tell you, there is nothing like being with a group of women who are high achieving, who are very ethical, strong character, competent and the kinds of, I would say both empathy, understanding, and wisdom that emerges, as we listen to each other and cheer one another on.
[00:02:12] Andrea Buczynski: It's wonderful to have kind of a safe port where you can be honest about the stuff you're experiencing. Many of the women will have experienced something similar and bring their own experience to your journey. And so, I found it immensely helpful.
[00:02:30] Tommy Thomas: Now, as I think Dee Dee said, you had people from the private sector as well as ministry and possibly government. I don't know. What is your mix? Without breaking any confidentiality.
[00:02:41] Andrea Buczynski: We have a marketplace. It's a C suite largely, but it's academics. I have to think for a minute. We have entrepreneurs, marketplace, nonprofit ministry. Yeah.
[00:02:59] Tommy Thomas: Was this something that's going on in other sectors and y'all modeled after somebody else or did somebody come up with this idea and said we need to do this.
[00:03:11] Andrea Buczynski: The one who founded the organization is Diane Ogle. She'd be a good interview. She had done something like this some years back and while she was living here in Orlando as part of the Christian Chamber and she had a number of men approach her and say, I think you need to do something for women.
And so, she had this idea. She shared it with a few people. And I think one of the first people she shared it with said, I think it's a great idea. Could I be in it? By the time I came, there were probably five or six women already in the group. I couldn't tell you any more than that part of it.
[00:03:54] Andrea Buczynski: But what I've loved about it, Tommy, is the advice that fits the kind of role that you have.
And so, in Cru, I don't want to use the word complaining, but let's say I was talking about being tired or I can't stop working, very common with high achieving anybody is where is that switch to turn off? In the evening, most people in and even on my team would say you need a vacation, or you need to take some time off and it'll be better.
I had the vacation. I had the time off. That was not the point. I got to this group and at one of the very first meetings, a woman just looked at me, there was someone else sharing the same struggle, and I echoed, I said, you could be reading my journal. And she just looked at the two of us and she said, this is what got you where you are, this very quality.
[00:04:51] Andrea Buczynski: And she said, you have to manage it because it's not going away. It's hardwired in you. And so how are you going to manage it? And we got into a whole discussion about what that might look like. And you can begin to see the difference in there's a recognition of the kinds of things that you're dealing with that makes it just more than collegial. It's kindred spirits.
[00:05:16] Tommy Thomas: As I said earlier, you've had a long and storied career with Cru, and you've seen society change, you've seen culture change. Everybody's got an opinion on cell phones and social media. Give us some insight on the college campus today and then with the workforce, because you've got 22 and 24 and younger people in your workforce. Maybe not reporting to you, but in your department.
[00:05:43] Andrea Buczynski: Yeah, it's really interesting to change the dynamic of the whole availability of information I think has had a big effect on organizational leadership.
So, when I was coming up our leaders would send us articles to read or something like that to enrich your thinking. I loved it. I'm a learner at heart. And I thought, this is what leaders do. They help grow their people by exposing them to other ideas and then thinking through how this affects the ministry here at Cru.
Somewhere, in the 90s, that began to change radically in that leaders were no longer the people who were dispensing information.
[00:06:25] Andrea Buczynski: Information was widely available. I don't remember when Wikipedia came into things, but I do remember disposing of my mother's set of Collier encyclopedias, it was just like they're worthless now because it's not the latest edition and they stopped printing them at some point.
So, with information being widely available no team member is dependent on their leader to help them find things. Everybody literally in conversation can just go, let me Google that and we'll figure out who wrote what the latest thought is or what that means. So, the effect on organizational leadership that I've seen is we used to train on how to do something.
[00:07:13] Andrea Buczynski: And we still do. And then we began to lead in terms of what is it that we want to accomplish? What is the outcome? And that hasn't changed. But it's just what came first. Learn how to do this. And then I'll learn the big picture. Now the big picture and the how is readily available.
The why is what people need to understand. So, when I look at that generational spread there's some people you could just tell them what to do and they will be automatically aligned to the organizational riverbanks that have been created. They understand them, but the new generation coming up, I think, does not have that background.
[00:07:54] Andrea Buczynski: And you have to supply it. So, it's not just here's how you do what we do, or here's what we want to see happen, God willing. It's why would we do it this way and not that way? Because now you have a hundred possibilities available to you on Google or YouTube or TikTok. And so, I think organizational leaders have to be more mindful about ideation coming in from outside the organization that may not be lined up with the values or mission or vision of the organization. And it requires a little bit more let's say vigilance or a very good fluency in the why we do what we do and why we do it the way we do it.
Do we answer more questions? We answer more why questions now than we did previously. Does that make sense?
[00:08:47] Tommy Thomas: I'm trying to process that. So how does that play out in terms of delivering content across the three or four generations? You probably don't have too many people our age, but you might, and then you go back to the next two or three generations.
What have y'all learned about, delivering, maybe content is not the word I'm looking for, but, delivering what is your message?
[00:09:12] Andrea Buczynski: So there's some tension there. So, if I were talking about organizational communication, for example, across five generations, you always have to go, what is the topic?
And why are we talking about it? And what's going to happen? Or and then how is it going to move forward? So, if you're introducing, say, organizational change, I think those are important things. People can live with a lot of ambiguity if they understand how you're moving forward. They don't have to have all the answers at once, right?
[00:09:45] Andrea Buczynski: But if you're talking about training delivery then I'm looking at it going anybody under 35 is going to expect a mobile delivery. Can I get it on my phone, or can I get it on my iPad?
People in my generation, I went to our help desk the other day and I said, I have to do an update on this software. When I look at this screen that comes up, I'm totally confused. So, can you walk me through it? Like I need somebody, now that might just be me.
[00:10:19] Tommy Thomas: I have that problem weekly, it seems like with apps and software.
[00:10:26] Andrea Buczynski: I am not a digital native so mobile delivery may not be the best thing for my generation, they might still like a high touch delivery and then the spectrum in between those two. So, we've tried a bunch of things like every organization, the webinar format works for some things, and not for others.
The in-person training works for some things and not for others, but we were surprised during COVID that we were able to convert some things that we thought needed to be face-to-face into being able to be done online if needed. And so, I think now if you're in a training kind of role, you have a pretty hefty toolbox.
And being selective of what to do, but the move toward mobile has been interesting for me to observe with some of the people on my team who are younger who are like we choose this learning management system because it has mobile capability versus this management system, which requires you to be on a laptop or something.
+++++++++++++++
[00:11:36] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to the restructuring for a minute, you talked about this big restructuring project that y'all went through and you had stepped up to more of an international leadership role. What was behind that? How did y'all come to the decision that you needed to eliminate, a strata of leadership and was that a global decision?
[00:11:57] Andrea Buczynski: We had a numerical goal for the year 2020. And so, we were coming up around somewhere in around 2017-2018 people started asking what's coming after 2020. And at the same time, we were seeing some organizational complications of the way we were structured.
So, it's not uncommon in a matrix organization to have the tensions built either strategy versus geography or, you name it. We had a variety of those things where we could see obstacles in the structure that we weren't able to overcome with any kind of behavioral initiative, right? As we began to look at it we were also in a presidential transition.
[00:12:48] Andrea Buczynski: We started to work on it. And then held up a little bit because of the presidential transition and then reactivated when the new president was involved. But basically, during those years what happened was an organizational design task force was put in place. We did, we started with a kind of strategy review, what have we accomplished over the last number of years.
Where are we strong? Where are we not? What problems are we seeing that need to be solved? That kind of thing. That went to an organizational design task force. They came out with some preliminary ideas, but one of the best things they did was a survey and we had I'd say over 3,000 responses. And so, you had a fair amount of data, and it was around this idea of what is going well, what is not, what needs to change, what do you see lacking, what needs more attention.
[00:13:48] Andrea Buczynski: And so, we got that back and we realized, okay we need fresh direction. We need to reinvigorate people in some ways around the work that the Lord is calling us to do over this next time. And then I think it was a presidential decision to just go ahead with it.
We had to go to the board because of the size of it. But the structure finally came back after two more iterations with two different groups of leaders. So, we had an onboarding thing for anybody coming into global leadership. We used that group to say, okay here's the results of these questions.
[00:14:29] Andrea Buczynski: What do you think are the themes that are emerging from this data? We gave them the raw data and they came back with here are the things you need to pay attention to. We did the similar thing with a group of probably 40 to 50 international leaders more at the country level who came in for an emerging leader initiative and okay, these are the themes.
How would you solve them? Okay. And listen to, I think five or six groups of presentations. So, we took all that under advisement, and came back with a structure. Our president defined strategic intent, whereas we need to go in the next 10 years and or in the next years, let's say.
[00:15:17] Andrea Buczynski: And we determined a launch date and that was 14 months out from when I was charged with doing the people care task force. Eliminating the level enabled the key stakeholders, geography, strategy, and capacity to sit on the same team and work out our differences on that team, rather than in opposition to one another and blocking.
So, it made for a much more collaborative leadership environment and, our muscle memory on the old system is having to be worked out of our system and gaining new habits and stuff like that. It's moving forward and at the same time you look at it and you go it has its own challenges like any structure does.
[00:16:15] Tommy Thomas: And I'm going to draw a blank on his name but our friend, Dan, who with Cru is leading your multi organizational initiative on every campus.
[00:16:23] Andrea Buczynski: Dan Allen.
[00:16:24] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, Dan Allen. I keep up with Dan and some of the folks at InterVarsity and other groups. Tell me how that's going. I'm just such a huge fan of organizational collaboration of not having to always invent it here, wherever here is, have you observed that in any thoughts as sitting back at your desk and watching that work?
[00:16:48] Andrea Buczynski: I just look at it and I’m struggling for the word because I think it's emerged from what used to be a competitive environment where we're a little bit more mission focused and a little less role focused, or individual organization focus like kingdom focus.
How do we live out a kingdom perspective where we're not tunnel vision on our own organization, but we're looking at what God is doing and where are the opportunities for bigger synergies than what we're seeing right now. So, the initiative with Dan and Every Campus Partnership is just a huge example of that.
[00:17:27] Andrea Buczynski: But there's also para church roundtables that exist in technology. In leader development in HR. I think in the finance side as well that has been going on for more than a decade. So that kind of shared environment. How are you dealing with this kind of thing helps us all grow. The other thing I'm involved with is Christian Leadership Alliance.
But what I love about that is we have this community hubs on Christian Leadership Alliance, and I'm part of the People Care one, and it gets populated with questions, every other week, and people will weigh in do you, have you used this, can you tell me anything about it, or do you have this, or, can you share a form or a task list or something like that where people are helping one another.
[00:18:25] Andrea Buczynski: I look at it and I go Steve Douglas, our late president used to say, we can give away what God has given to us because he will give us whatever we need. And so, we don't have to be super protective about it. It's going to benefit the kingdom. Then how do we look at it?
I like that change. I feel like it's been a shift in the body of Christ over the last 10 or 20 years. It's been a good one.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:18:55] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to bring this thing to a close and I'll ask you, I framed this a lightning round. I'm not sure that they're always lightning round kind of questions, but let's hit a few of them.
What do you understand about your life today that you didn't understand a year ago?
[00:19:11] Andrea Buczynski: Maybe it's my age or the fact that I've experienced some losses, the fact that the past few years, every day is a gift.
[00:19:20] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back and tell a younger version of yourself, one thing, what would it be?
[00:19:28] Andrea Buczynski: Don't be intimidated. Everybody's figuring it out. Nobody knows what they're doing.
[00:19:36] Tommy Thomas: If you're sitting beside a total stranger at a dinner party, how do you engage them in a meaningful conversation?
[00:19:42] Andrea Buczynski: It would probably depend on the person and, how we know each other, but part of it if it's a total stranger, it would just be tell me a little bit about yourself and what is it you enjoy most about what you do and go from there.
[00:19:58] Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them only one question, who would it be and what would the question be?
[00:20:21] Andrea Buczynski: This is what's coming to mind right now. I would just say, I would want to ask Jesus, what was it like to sit at the table with the person that you knew would betray you, and that you knew would deny you? And wash their feet. What was that like? Yeah. I'm curious.
[00:20:49] Tommy Thomas: Anything that as we wrap it up you think back over what we've covered and I always tell my guests, treat this as if you had the podium at a nonprofit gathering, and you had a group of budding nonprofit leaders. Anything you would share as a closing comment?
[00:21:15] Andrea Buczynski: Yes. I'd say, your heart matters. What's going on in your relationship with the Lord, what's going on in your character, who you are is more important than what you do. If people know you love them, they will give you a lot of grace. And so, I just look at it and I go, what kind of person do I want to show up as today?
And do your best if you're believer to represent the Lord and to come with every resource He's given you. And if not, to go, can you be the person whose life is integrous, lives with integrity, do what you say you will do, mean what you say what you mean, keep your promises.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:22:08] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Andrea Buczynski: I don't mind doing some thought work by myself. But there's nothing like getting in a room with people who want to go to the same place, and to be able to put ideas out there, bat them around. And then it might be the same group of people, but it also might be a different group of people that comes in and says here's what it's going to take to do it.
It resonates with me with the body of Christ that we all have a part to play and God's created us uniquely and we need others to bring the best out of each other. We build each other up when we're in that process. And the team that's working well together will be more brilliant than any individual player.
Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Andrea Buczynski. Andrea enjoyed a long and storied career with Cru. She took her undergraduate degree from Penn State. At Cru, she's known as a catalyst for transformation, seeking innovative solutions and addressing challenges and creating lasting impact.
Her most recent leadership responsibility at Cru was Global Vice President for Leadership Development and Human Resources. Andrea, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:15] Andrea Buczynski: Thank you so much, Tommy. I'm glad to be here with you today.
[00:01:18] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, people always want to know, how do we get these guests? And yours is a typical story.
In my business, in the search business, anytime I'm looking for a CEO, at least one way to build the pool is to call a bunch of people, describe the job you've got and say, now if you were doing the search who would you get? And if you make eight or ten of those calls generally, you'll begin to see three- or four-people’s names rise to the top and you might think I need to talk to these people.
In your case, about a year ago, year and a half ago, I was interviewing your colleagues Barry and Dee Dee Rush and Bob Tiede. At the end of that conversation I said, now y'all been through this. It wasn't quite like a root canal. Who would you recommend? And your name came out of Barry and Dee Dee immediately.
[00:02:04] Tommy Thomas: So then earlier this year, I was talking to our mutual friend, DeeDee Wilson, from InterVarsity and she says, who else have you got in the queue? And I began to tell her, and she says, you need to talk to Andrea. I said, okay. And then a little bit later, I was talking to Judy Douglas and Judy says who else are you interviewing? And I told her, and she says, have you spoke to Andrea yet? And I said no but that's probably a sign. I'm excited about this.
Before we dig too deep into your professional background, I always like to know a little bit about somebody's childhood and maybe a few of the things that brought them to where they are today.
[00:02:40] Tommy Thomas: Do you have a couple of particular remembrances of childhood?
[00:02:44] Andrea Buczynski: I grew up in Northeastern Pennsylvania in a small town that was full of families who had immigrated to the U.S. which included my grandparents. And we grew up in what I'd call a front porch community, where everybody sat on the front porch and knew one another, and all of my grade school teachers lived within about five blocks of our home.
And so, there was this sense of you're part of a community. If you actually did something naughty, chances are your mom would know about it before you got home. Somebody would be on the way or able to correct you. We also lived just a couple doors down from the church we went to, which was a big influence in my life.
I'm the oldest of six. And so, growing up, sharing was a common struggle and was what made the family experience rich as it was.
[00:03:43] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like in your town?
[00:03:47] Andrea Buczynski: By the time I got to high school, we had a consolidated district. You went from that class of maybe 30 or 60 to class of, let's say 270, something like that.
Andrea Buczynski: It was just a different experience. What I enjoyed a lot was the kinds of activities that you got to do stuff together. Glee Club, Choir, Band, Marching Band, Color Guard, where you're having to actually work together to accomplish a result. When I look back on it, there was a lot that I really enjoyed.
So, like any high school, if you've got your cliques, you've got all your athletic teams and stuff like that, that makes for kind of a rich experience.
[00:04:37] Tommy Thomas: So back then, what did you want to be when you grew up?
[00:04:41] Andrea Buczynski: I don't know that it emerged right away, but when I was a junior in high school, I had a really awesome chemistry teacher. And it was known to be a tough class. And so, I was prepared for the challenge of it, but I was fascinated by the fact that you could figure out what things were made of and what they could do. And he had a really good way of showing films about the practical applications of the chemical reactions we were studying. And so, I found myself really leaning toward being a research chemist. And that's what was my intention when I headed to Penn State.
[00:05:26] Tommy Thomas: Did you follow through with that?
[00:05:29] Andrea Buczynski: Not so much. Somewhere in my college years, the Lord got a hold of my heart in a big way. And as I considered what I was going to do I think by that time I was already active in ministry with Cru. And I was just loving helping people walk with the Lord and come to know him personally.
I was also doing individual study with my supervisor that got my, what do you call that? With your college advisor and realize what life in a chem lab would be like.
And as much as I enjoyed it, the big aha I had about myself, Tommy, was that I'm an all-in kind of person, so whatever I'm pursuing I want to get to that problem.
[00:06:20] Andrea Buczynski: I want to get to the solution. So, I'd find myself thinking about the chemistry while I was actually talking to people about other things at night. And I thought, whatever I have to do, I'm not going to have any bandwidth to do something on the side. If I was thinking I'm going to come home from work and do ministry, I'm not wired that way, so I realized it would be all in on something.
And then the Lord began to speak to me through the gospel of Luke, follow me. And there you have it.
[00:06:55] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:07:01] Andrea Buczynski: That I was maybe a church organist for seven years through high school and played the organ at the church down the street for me.
And then at another one across the river. And yeah, I'm both organ and piano, I have a piano here. And so sometimes people are surprised by that, like the music theme that kind of runs through my life.
++++++++++++++++
[00:07:30] Tommy Thomas: So, you joined the Cru staff and sooner or later you had people reporting to you. What do you remember about that first, we'll call it management experience?
[00:07:45] Andrea Buczynski: I'd say the first memory is being a little bit overwhelmed at thinking about what I was actually responsible for. And one of the beautiful things that happened was I ended up working with a guy who as we were leading the team together, who had been a rookie the year before. And he just looked at me at our first meeting and he goes, look, I know what it feels like to be new because I'm only a year further along. And he goes, so there's plenty of grace for it for you coming into this role. And we'll just take it one thing at a time, but I'm. I'm not going to sit here and say the bar is high and all that jazz.
He goes, I understand what you're going through. And so when you have a colleague like that who's a brother in the Lord, who's looking at you with empathy and a lot of grace, it makes for a relatively easy transition.
[00:08:49] Tommy Thomas: Would you have called him a mentor or a peer leader?
[00:08:53] Andrea Buczynski: I'd say, we were roughly the same age, so it's more of a peer but what he demonstrated, I think, was just the kind of empathy and understanding of what a new leader goes through and made it just an easy transition. The first time I actually led a team by myself, Tommy, was when I took this role as Global Vice President.
And so up until then, every role I had been in was a shared leadership. A partner kind of role and in that case when I stepped in, I was like wow, there's a lot more to this, when you're carrying that load by yourself and what made that somewhat daunting, are we doing the right things?
Are we making decisions in the right places? What was helpful in that situation was I had a couple of guys on my team, Barry was one of them who would look at what needs to be done. And let's go be super supportive and big cheerleaders along the way.
[00:10:02] Tommy Thomas: If I could back when you came onto that job, so you've been in there about a year or so, and I could have been invited to a staff meeting and we dismissed you and I asked your staff, what was the most exciting thing about working for you? What do you think they would have said?
[00:10:21] Andrea Buczynski: We're headed somewhere.
[00:10:23] Tommy Thomas: And what would have been the most daunting thing about working for you or challenging?
[00:10:31] Andrea Buczynski: You remember when I said I'm all in on stuff, so if I'm like mentally engrossed in a problem-solving kind of thing both these guys could tell at a glance whether I could really hear something that they wanted to bring to my attention that day. So, I think, is Andrea able to engage on this thing right now and I got that feedback from that and I was surprised. But I thought, it's true, it was one of the better pieces of feedback that I got. I can tell if you're ready to engage, or if you have something else on your mind, that's going to eclipse what I'm talking to you about.
[00:11:12] Tommy Thomas: As you've come through Cru, how have you learned to identify what's a good leadership role for you?
[00:11:20] Andrea Buczynski: If you're familiar with Cru, placement when I came on staff was not a negotiable thing. When you were assigned, it made you, A, flexible, and B, adapting to different leadership styles or leadership situations. But the ones I enjoy the most are the ones where there's a really committed team.
And that idea that together we're going somewhere and there's more that we can accomplish together than we can accomplish individually. One of my assignments was at the University of Wisconsin at Stevens Point, and you might recognize this name. Dick Bennett was the coach. He went on to coach at Madison, Wisconsin.
But he was a strong believer. And when he talked about basketball, it was the pure, the whole team plays. There's not an individual star. And I love listening to him for that, just for that analogy, because I thought that is good teamwork. And I love that kind of situation where you're making the best out of each other's strengths and seeing who else you might need if the team itself was weak in it.
[00:12:40] Andrea Buczynski: So, I like that. And I also like to have someone to report to who is both accessible and supportive, so if I have something I want it. Think about it, it's not going to take me a month to get a meeting.
[00:12:54] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. At what point in your career did you begin to feel comfortable in your leadership skin?
[00:13:03] Andrea Buczynski: I'd say the last five years. Okay. Later along the line than you might think. And at some of that, I think it's just because the scale of what you're looking at in global leadership development and HR in Cru is pretty extensive. And the number of stakeholders. And could feel off balance for a variety of reasons.
Most of my experience on the ministry side was in the US so understanding the lay of the land on other continents and what the impact of decisions that we were considering would be in those places was not necessarily something I felt comfortable in until yeah, I would say maybe seven years ago, but in the last 10 for sure.
[00:13:54] Tommy Thomas: Going back to your team. What's the most effective team building exercise that you found to use?
[00:14:02] Andrea Buczynski: This might be pretty basic, but other than taking some time to hear one another's histories and life experiences, the process of team formation is one of the best team building things that I think you could do. And those would be simple things like how do we want to treat each other?
What are norms? Developing team norms and then taking the team through some kind of strategic planning process. What is it that you know, from our current reality? Where do we want to head? So doing those processes are kind of work processes, but it's what enables a team to see the big picture of what needs to happen.
They understand the rationale they're participating in the decision making around what are we going to do? And how are we going to do it? And who are we going to be to each other?
[00:14:59] Andrea Buczynski: And then I would say from then, it's just the continuous improvement, let's evaluate how it went. It's always fun. We love assessments, try to find out a little more insight about who you are.
And so, I won't discount those because they give insight. But when I think about what really helps a team gel, it is knowing that we're going to the same place, we've agreed on who's doing what, we know the processes we'll engage in, we know our obligations toward one another, those kinds of things make for a good team experience.
[00:15:32] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you've ever undertaken with your team?
[00:15:42] Andrea Buczynski: That's a tough question because we've had some good ones along the way, but I will say the most recent restructure my team was responsible for designing a process to care for 680 staff whose jobs would be eliminated because we were taking a level of the organization out. So how would we care for those people in transition?
What help would we provide in finding a new assignment? Because we didn't want to lose them. They were all great people. It's just that we were going into a different structure, and we needed to be able to evaluate the role that might be best for them. So, you can imagine if you have those folks, many of them serving overseas in international assignments, moving in a family, or the way something was going to be structured now isn't going to fit exactly what they were doing. So that one and thrown in with that was a global leadership conference to celebrate the past 10 years, all in one package.
[00:16:52] Andrea Buczynski: So different parts of my team participated in that, but the people care part was a multinational task force. I think eight to 10 original participants grew into something around maybe 100 to 150, if you include the conference.
[00:17:15] Tommy Thomas: Now, was this done face to face, or was this all through via zoom? This is probably a pandemic (ish) timeframe.
[00:17:22] Andrea Buczynski: It was exactly. It was during the pandemic. And so, we did everything by zoom, even the Global Leadership Conference, three mornings, three hours each morning and working out a design that would somehow enable us to celebrate and to lament because all of us were in different situations and many people had lost family or friends.
And then to anticipate what the Lord might want to do the next 10 years as we go forward. And it was an amazing time going, how do you do this in a relatively short amount of time? I think we had somewhere between 1,000 to 1,500 people participate online. Which was just an amazing thing.
[00:18:09] Andrea Buczynski: I cried. I'm just watching people populate the chat high from this country, high from that country, coming in, in different languages. It gives me chills even thinking about it as I'm telling you about it, because it was such a work of God, how that, you know that team was different from the People Care Task Force.
I had never led a conference planning team. And we got to a point where we had the design in place. And I didn't know what to do. And I got an email from one of my fellow VPs who said, there’s a woman on my team who led the biggest staff conference in a certain part of the world. And I'd like to make her available to you.
[00:18:58] Andrea Buczynski: And I called her that afternoon. And said I'm stuck. Like we have the design, and it turns out her husband was on my team, but I didn't realize he had program director experience. He was reporting to someone else on my team. And the two of them got on zoom with me and they said, let us look at what you have, and we'll come back with recommendations tomorrow.
And the next day they came back, and they said, here's what needs to happen. And it said, the composition of the meetings needs to change. It needs to go to the production team now. And they said, do you really want us to lead this? And I was like, yes, I'm happy to be in the meeting, but I have no bandwidth.
[00:19:41] Andrea Buczynski: Like to set an agenda for another set of meetings. And that was about four weeks out from the conference. Maybe three. And Tommy, it went off without a hitch. It was a beautiful experience of the provision of God, people operating in their giftedness. And all of this was happening. We had people on the team from Singapore, from Paris, the U.S.
A couple of other places that I can't think of right now. But it was, that same kind of multinational over distance. How can we do this? Let's figure it out kind of situation.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:20:25] Tommy Thomas: Thinking about the pandemic and hopefully we're through it for the most part, from a leadership lesson perspective, what do you think maybe you and your team learned that's worth taking forward?
[00:20:41] Andrea Buczynski: That's a great question. There's probably a couple of things. One is, Zoom showed us we were pretty reliant on face-to-face meetings to get anything done. And it slowed any kind of corrective action. If you're dependent on face to face, it takes six months to a year to plan a multinational meeting of any size and to get people there, budgets and all of that.
Suddenly, we went, oh my goodness, there's another way to do this. We had to use Skype, but it was difficult in some cases and the efficiency of zoom was amazing. So, it changed the way we thought about how to do things. It gave people some bandwidth. If you didn't have little kids at home, it wasn't so hard for singles, the isolation was challenging.
[00:21:45] Andrea Buczynski: And when you think about it changed, it actually affected my view of remote work and for whom will it be a challenge and for whom will it make life easier? In some ways. So, when you have some discretion about, how to use your time, I've never been one for, let's say, punching an office clock, although I like having an office, but it's my point of view has been if people are doing the work, I'm not going to count the hours that they're spending doing it.
So, that was never a problem with me, but certain conditions for remote work. You have to have a place where you can be undistracted, or work without interruption. You just, all of those funny videos about kids or pets, coming into the meeting. You can live with them, but it's not good for an ongoing situation.
[00:22:41] Andrea Buczynski: The other thing I would say was it actually prepared us for the kind of structure that we have now because we're more highly dependent on tools like zoom and then shared like a shared Google drive. Like, all those things have changed the way we get work done and the pandemic was like proof positive of that.
Could we do work in a sort of asynchronous way and be together when we need to be together and move things forward? And then I'd say the third part would be there's nothing that replaces face to face contact.
[00:23:18] Andrea Buczynski: So, I had a big birthday during the first year of the pandemic, and I'd been at home for two months by myself and I was sitting in this office, and I looked out the window and I could see people from my team emerging from cars. And what are they doing here?
My assistant convened a birthday party. So, they were setting out chairs that were six feet apart from each other in the parking lot. And she went and got a couple dozen donuts. And they're singing happy birthday to me out in the parking lot of my condo complex. It was one of the kindest and most touching things looking at it, just, I'll never forget it.
[00:24:02] Tommy Thomas: There's that fine line between nothing that can replace face to face contact with the economies that you get through technology. And I think that's a balance that we'll carry forward now that we've had to go through it.
[00:24:18] Andrea Buczynski: Yeah, we're highly dependent on those economies right now.
[00:24:21] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, you referenced Dick Bennett and basketball. One of my previous podcast guests was David Chadwick, who played for Dean Smith at Chapel Hill, and he wrote a book called It’s How You Play the Game, the 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith, and one of his quotes was the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball leadership and society.
[00:24:47] Tommy Thomas: Obviously, you work with a lot of teams, and you may have already answered this, but how does that work? The concept of team impacted you.
[00:24:57] Andrea Buczynski: I love it. I don't mind doing some thought work by myself. But there's nothing like getting in a room with people who want to go to the same place, and to be able to put ideas out there, bat them around. And then it might be the same group of people, but it also might be a different group of people that comes in and says here's what it's going to take to do it.
I just look at it and go, when it resonates with me with the body of Christ that we, that we all have a part to play, and God's created us uniquely and we need others to bring the best out of each other. We build each other up when we're in that process. And the team that's working well together will be more brilliant than any individual player and that was Dick Bennett I'm sure that was Dean Smith when you and others other coaches who do team really well realize that, and you go the team can accomplish more than the individuals can accomplish when the team is leveraged to do their best.
[00:26:06] Tommy Thomas: So, you would probably subscribe to this quote, A group is a bunch of people in an elevator. A team is a bunch of people in an elevator, but the elevator is broken.
[00:26:21] Andrea Buczynski: Yes, teamwork will emerge pretty quickly in that case, right?
[00:26:26] Tommy Thomas: Join us again next week as we continue this conversation with Andrea Buczynski. Andrea shares a bit about the empowering world of Arete - The Executive Women of Influence and the wisdom that emerges when high achieving women come together in a spirit of confidentiality, shared values, and ethical leadership. We'll also be discussing whether the availability and abundance separate from my shin has impacted organizational leadership and how she, as a non-digital native has learned to thrive in this environment.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify
Tommy Thomas: Today we continue our dialogue with Larry O’Nan that we began last week. Before delving into that conversation, I'd like to share some reflections that have emerged after revisiting our episode a few times. As the one handling post-production duties for this podcast, I typically listen during the edit for technical nuances and formatting concerns, rather than immersing myself in the content.
However, I get a second chance to absorb the discussions when I tune in via my podcast app. This usually occurs on Saturday mornings during my long bicycle rides. Alongside other favorite podcasts like Alan Alda’s Clear and Vivid, previous Tennessee governor's Phil Bredesen and Bill Haslam's You Might Be Right, Tia Brown’s One Question Leadership Podcast, Far East Broadcasting Company’s weekly update and other enriching podcasts.
During one such ride last week as Larry recounted the early days of Fund Development with Cru, my mind traveled back to 1974 to those nascent beginnings. As a young 23-year-old joining the Crusade staff, my prior fundraising experience had been limited to helping a friend with a critical medical procedure. While this endeavor proved fruitful, it primarily relied on contributions from close acquaintances.
Under Larry's guidance, alongside a small team of field reps, I unwittingly became a part of Campus Crusade’s foundational efforts in Fund Development. Back then, not only were we tasked with raising our own personal support, but we were instrumental in pioneering the organization's approach to securing substantial funding for specific projects.
My tenure with Larry proved to be a master class in various aspects of life and fundraising. From time management strategies to maximizing air travel budgets. And even cultivating relationships with affluent donors predominantly in their senior years. Those lessons were invaluable.
Little did we know that we would be trailblazers in Campus Crusade’s fundraising efforts, contributing to the trajectory of Larry's enduring career. Looking back, I'm deeply grateful for those formative years and the profound insights into both fundraising in life that Larry had parted to me. Let's pick up where we left off last week.
[00:02:40] Tommy Thomas: Take me into your new book, Intentional Living and Giving. What was the genesis of that?
[00:02:48] Larry O'Nan: The genesis came back from this study when I was assigned the job of writing to come up with Stewardship Theology. I did another book in the mid 80s called Giving Yourself Away, and in many respects, this is a revision of that, although it's a totally different package, but it was still basically all the same core theology.
And a few years ago, I was in Ireland for an event, And some people in Britain were saying there's nothing that's really distinctive that we know about this, simple to understand about what stewardship's about, because there's a lot of misconceptions out there. And there's a lot of traditions that would get in their way.
[00:03:30] Larry O'Nan: In Great Britain, years ago there was a guy there that started orphanages. And he had about 300 kids in the orphanages in Bristol. And as he was working with these kids, he was a great marketer, but he was known for praying things in. So, he'd go into his closet and pray.
And then people decided that his style of raising funds was the way they would adapt. So, they would say we're not going to ask for money. We're going to go pray for it. What they don't tell you is the story of how well he was at marketing where the kids were living. And everybody knew where he was located, and he was out all the time talking about the kids in need.
[00:04:13] Larry O'Nan: So, you'll find that story. And there are some people who say we should never ask for anything. God is the one that provides. We're not going to go that route. So, there's a lot of skewed ideas of what this all means. The book itself, Intentional Living and Giving, is a recap of everything. So, the first nine chapters are the Theology of Stewardship, and then the latter nine chapters are how do you practically apply this in your life.
So, we unpack what God's role for man was and what we do, how we respond, how we act, what we should be doing. And then the latter part is here's some very practical things that will help you be successful. And out of the whole book, there's one chapter because everybody expects a book on stewardship to be about money.
[00:05:01] Larry O'Nan: I dedicated one chapter to talk about what money is and how it works and what tithing is and some of those things. But that's one chapter out of 17 chapters. And I really say this is one thing you can give, but there's a hundred other things you can give as well. What are you doing in stewardship?
Not what are you doing with your money? And so the book itself is, what I discovered, there's people out there, Tommy, I remember a lady about a decade ago, she was probably in her 60s, maybe 65, and she had tears in her eyes. The context was she'd been married to a pastor, and they'd gone through a divorce, so that was a mess up.
[00:05:40] Larry O'Nan: They had been in ministry for years and years. She raised a family of a couple of kids. And her tears in her eyes was I never have figured out my purpose in life. Why did God put me here in the first place? And I thought for 65, you just missed some of the great joy because he was very clear giving you assignments and work.
You just didn't know what day you were a steward. So, she really was fulfilling a stewardship, and everybody knew about it, but she was miserable because it wasn't articulated to her that you are doing what God called you to do. I think of that lady every once in a while, and I think, boy, if more people understood how they could be a steward and practically implement stewardship in their life, they could go from confusion and fear to thriving and abundant contentment.
[00:06:30] Larry O'Nan: And that's what I'm really trying to help people get is I'm trying to help you free yourself up from the confusion and the fear that you probably are living with to wonder if you're doing what God led you to do. Why am I here in the first place? What's all about a life that says I'm thriving? I have an abundance.
Nothing about money there, just the abundance of life, and I can be content. So, the book is really unpacking that for the average Christian. I wrote it as much for the international side as I did the American side, but it's a universal challenge that's out there, and that's why the book is you know, on its way out the door.
I'm just trying to help people get free so they can thrive. That's what it's all about.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:15] Tommy Thomas: Early in your career, and then you took a break from it, and I think now you're back at it, but tell our listeners a little bit about your Andy Ant series.
[00:07:24] Larry O'Nan: I'm a dad. I have two daughters. My oldest daughter was three years of age, and the other one was just coming along.
She's about three years younger. One night, Carrie, I read her stories every night when I was home, and I would put her to bed after reading her a kid story. And one night she said, Daddy, I don't want you to read me a story. And I did. I thought this is weird. She says, I want you to tell me a story.
[00:07:53] Larry O'Nan: And so I laid down her book that I was going to read to her, and I laid there in bed for a minute, and I said, once upon a time, there was an ant, because I was remembering the book of Proverbs, it said, watch the ant, learn of his ways, my definition is, though he's tiny, he's mighty in many ways, we can learn a lot from ants, how they store, how they work.
The diligence, the way they work together in cooperation. I've got a 300-page book on ants, believe it or not. I didn't write it, but the guy did his doctoral thesis on ants. And I thought that's an interesting one. But anyway, I started telling my daughter stories and they were really just stories about her and the life she lived about this little character.
[00:08:34] Larry O'Nan: And I named him Andy. And she liked Andy Ant. So many nights it would be tell me an Andy Ant story. Now, the Andy Ant stories that are out today, my brother is the author of all the books. We did collaborate on the concept, but he's an attorney in Denver. And I said if you will work on the storylines the way you see him, I'll try to work on the marketing and getting the stories out there and their books for three- to 10-year-old kids.
They are the day in the life of a little boy that I didn't create. My brother is basically Joseph Tyler Johnson, the main character. But I, in my world of Andy Ant, it was what Carrie was doing outside and how the ants interrupted her life. And then Jessica came along, and the same thing happened. So, the environment there was learning from the ants and learning principles of daily living in a fun way without being religious.
[00:09:32] Larry O'Nan: I wasn't trying to make him memorize verses at that time of day. What did I learn? Andy would play baseball because Carrie had a baseball bat and she played out in the backyard and tried to hit the ball. Andy started hitting the balls in the grass. So, it was crazy.
It made no sense. And if for 10 years, Andy existed between Jessica and Carrie and myself, the life came when my brother got involved and created it. We eventually got a former Disney artist who had worked for 21 years for Walt Disney personally, and he did all of the illustrations. So, if you see the Andy Ant work today, there's eight books in the series.
[00:10:13] Larry O'Nan: It looks like what you would call Disney evergreen art because it was created by one of the Disney evergreen artists, and he did that. He spent two years of his life working with us on the entire series. He's no longer living, but that's the story of how we got the stories going. So that is out there for kids that really, there's a stewardship element to it because I have trouble giving up on Andy because I'm a steward of Andy.
So, I got to take care of this crazy ant. Because that's a responsibility that God gave me. But it's incidental to the other story of really helping people thrive. I'm much more motivated to help you and other people that you might know or other adults. God's really got a purpose. I want you to thrive and do all that God led you to do.
[00:11:07] Larry O'Nan: And if I'm doing that and you're doing that, we're going to get along fine. Life will be better for both of us. Yeah.
++++++++++++++++
[00:11:13] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned you just returned from Spain. Are there cultural differences in the way a Latin population would see stewardship or an Eastern European population or does it transcend?
[00:11:29] Larry O'Nan: It transcends. I started working with the guy that created this environment that I was a part of. It was the guy that I've mentored for 40 years. And I started training him. He picked up on it. There's another guy in Switzerland that has taken it even further. One of them got into helping missionaries raise their own personal support called Ministry Partner Development.
And this conference was centered around helping missionaries do that. Now, I probably met less than a half a dozen Americans there. Everybody else was European. There were 20 countries involved. I met four people from Ukraine. There were people from the Baltic states, across France, Spain, everywhere else.
[00:12:13] Larry O'Nan: Some of them were with organizations that you would recognize, but they were the European expression. So Young Life and Navigators and Operation Mobilization and Youth of the Mission were all there. So was Agape Europe, which is the Cru expression of Campus Crusade. But I'd say two thirds of the organizations, I couldn't even figure out how to pronounce their names.
They were unique organizations to the culture. Some of them were humanitarian, camping, evangelism, church planting, church growth. And they were all equipped with how they could raise financial support as missionaries within their culture with nobody ever leaving their culture to raise the funding that they need because they're raising money in Spain, in France, in Germany, in Switzerland, in the Netherlands, in Great Britain, in Ukraine, in Hungary, in Czechoslovakia, in Poland.
[00:13:10] Larry O'Nan: They're racing the same kind of a thing that you and I would have done, in the seventies with Cru is being done over and over again. And it's not a Cru thing. It's their own unique thing. Everybody that was at that conference was volunteering their time to help others. It was not sponsored by an organization.
It was sponsored by a network. And they came together to help, and they keep on training people how to do it. And they're helping the nationals be successful in it. Spain's a unique country. Years ago, when I first went there, probably 40 years ago, I was told over and over again, you can never raise money in the country of Spain.
[00:13:53] Larry O'Nan: It's impossible because we don't have the money here. And this guy that was telling me that over and over was making sure that we weren't going to mess up his plan. The Lord took him home. He’s probably been gone about five or six years. The generation that came after him learned about what we're talking about in terms of fund development and just said we do not want to be dependent on money from outside of Europe.
[00:14:20] Larry O'Nan: We don't want to be dependent on money outside of Spain. And so, this ministry is 100 percent funded now by Spanish funds, and comes in through the Spanish structure. They rarely get any money outside of Spain and rarely any from the United States. That doesn't mean that we don't encourage that when it's available.
But it's very unhealthy when an organization becomes codependent on somebody else just to make them work. And the entire European structure is trying to say we do not need funding from the West, i.e. the United States. I say if people want to be generous and help you, accept it.
[00:15:01] Larry O'Nan: But to say that we cannot survive as an organization because we don't have funding from the U.S. They think it is wrong and they need to be responsible. The principle is that every place in the world, God's landed his people and he's got money everywhere. And it's all his. So, let's go find it and let's work with the partners that are there.
And if you look at any part of scripture, in fact, the principles that we teach on stewardship came out of the Middle East. They didn't come out of America. These are all biblical principles that came out of a period of time of the Old and New Testament. So, it works as well there. It takes some time, and it takes, I find that sometimes leadership of their organizations is the number one liability to doing it right because they're assigning somebody else to go raise it, but they don't want to go through the pain or the refocus of their attention to do it right.
[00:15:58] Larry O'Nan: When I was over in Spain last week, I was saying, get you copies of Intentional Living and Giving, get the dialogue going with your leadership and your board. Because if they're with you, you can thrive as an organization. If they're not with you in this philosophy or theology you're going to be having struggles all the time because they're going to want money faster than the development process will get it to them.
Even there, and the book will work there, and it's all in English right now, that's the way the books start typically, if an English person writes it. But I would anticipate in the next two or three years, we'll be in half a dozen languages that will be relevant to the mainstream. You can have about eight languages in the world and be into the marketplace, any place in the world.
[00:16:44] Larry O'Nan: Yeah, there's 2000 languages, but those are heart languages. And the economy works in about eight languages. The world economy is there. That's where we're at. And these people, yes, the entire conference in Spain was English. But when they read scripture, they would read it in five languages because somebody in that room knew one of those five languages.
So, that's what it was. And it was the generation Z and maybe millennials that were leading the conference. I never spoke once. I just spent a lot of time interacting with the participants there. And I didn't need to speak because they were doing a better job at doing that than I could ever have done.
And it is universal. It can work any place. Some of the largest funding for Christian enterprises currently happens in Asia, not in the United States.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:17:37] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to bring this thing to a close. I want to ask you. I don't know that I like the word lightning round because you might want to take longer to answer than a lightning round might incur, but so I'll start with, if you could give a younger version of yourself, a piece of advice, what would it be?
[00:17:56] Larry O'Nan: Don't be afraid to fail, work a plan or develop a plan and work the plan. Don't give up.
[00:18:06] Tommy Thomas: If you could get a do over in life, what would it be?
[00:18:13] Larry O'Nan: If I could do a do over? I probably would have gained understanding of stewardship earlier. I totally tripped over it. I think my life would have been a lot more fulfilled if I'd just known it a couple of decades earlier.
[00:18:31] Tommy Thomas: How have you changed in the last five years?
[00:18:36] Larry O'Nan: You got to go backoalmost 10 years on my change. My wife died 10 years ago, and about nine years into that, I said, Okay, I'm very much alive and well and healthy. And I said, instead of retiring, I'm going to reboot and keep on going. That's been the radical changes to my fault. I take on more than I should. But if you have got a responsible bone in your body, you'll probably do that.
And yeah, I think that people that quit on anything lose life. I see people retired, but I also see 40-year-olds that quit on a marriage or quit on their kids or quit on something else. I just think stick with it. That I was going to write a book some years back. I may still do something someday with it called The Curve.
[00:19:33] Larry O'Nan: Because the only time you really grow is when you're in a crisis situation. And the book, The Curve, was about how you navigate the curves of life. And it's in the curve when you think it's the worst that you're probably going to grow the most. So, embrace the curve and realize that what comes out of the backside of it is going to make you a better person.
[00:19:55] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anybody ever gave you?
[00:20:00] Larry O'Nan: You have the freedom to fail. I don't think I ever would have done what I did in my years that God gave me here so far if I did not embrace that and just go for it over and over again. I write it down every once in a while when I'm up against the wall. Larry, you have the freedom to fail. Go try it.
[00:20:26] Tommy Thomas: It's been a wonderful conversation, Larry. Thank you. It's good to catch up and we shouldn't wait this long to do it again.
[00:20:34] Larry O'Nan: I should come out and someday we have to go out and see what's in your part of the world together. I have fond memories of working with you, Tommy. Fond memories.
[00:20:42] Tommy Thomas: You're welcome on the Gulf Coast anytime you can catch an airplane ride down this way.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:20:47] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Larry O’Nan’s Website
Larry O’Nan’s Email: Larry@LarryONan.com
Intentional Living and Giving: Discovering Purpose, Igniting Abundance, and Thriving as a Steward of God's Blessing by Larry O'Nan
The Adventures of Andy Ant: Lawn Mower On The Loose (MJ Kids; Adventure of Andy Ant) by Gerald O'Nan
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify
[00:00:00] Larry O'Nan: We could have failed miserably, Tommy, but that was okay. I learned a long time ago, and even in the book that I've written, I did a foreword about the freedom to fail. And I was afraid to step out and do things, and I had a guy that I was working with, and he said, Larry, freedom to fail is what you've got.
[00:00:19] Larry O'Nan: No one's ever done it before. Go ahead and step into it. All you can do is go back and do it again. If it doesn't work, then try something else. And freedom to fail never became a barrier to me. If this is not the way to do it, we'll figure it out later and tweak it and do it again.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:34] Tommy Thomas: My guest today is Larry O'Nan, and Larry is a graduate of the University of Colorado. He and his wife, Pat, served on the staff of Cru, previously known as Campus Crusade for Christ, for 18 years.
And during this time, Larry dedicated 13 years to developing and overseeing the accelerated growth of many fund development initiatives, resulting in more than 150 million raised for evangelism and development programs worldwide. I first met Larry in July of 1973. I had joined the staff of Campus Crusade and had been assigned to report to Larry.
It's an immense pleasure to get to interview my first boss.
Larry, Welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:20] Larry O'Nan: Tommy, it's so good to be with you. Thanks a lot for inviting me to dialogue with you a little bit today about all kinds of things. We've got a long history.
[00:01:28] Tommy Thomas: We could go in a lot of directions. We could do a whole podcast on reminiscing about memories, but there was one that stuck in my mind. And I don't know if you remember or not. It was the summer of ‘74 and Larry and I had traveled to Korea to attend this big conference, Expo 74, with a million and a half of our good friends.
And after the conference, we traveled around Southeast Asia, but the leg of the trip that I remember was with the Philippines. And it was so hot, and it was so humid, I was raised in the south and I thought I knew what heat and humidity was, but they put a whole new definition on it over there.
I remember we shared a bedroom that had two single beds and one oscillating fan. I can remember lying in my bed and that fan would hit me and then it would go away and it'd go over, swing over to Larry's side of the room, and hit him. And it'd go back and forth. And I thought, a lot of significant learning took place on that trip, but the heat and the humidity and that oscillating fan stick out in my memory, Larry.
[00:02:34] Larry O'Nan: Oh, my goodness. And I was in the Philippines about two years ago. I chair a board of a nonprofit in the Philippines called Little Feet and Friends, and I was sharing a room with a Filipino pastor that was with me. And I was laying there thinking at least the last time I was here, it wasn't oscillating. I was actually in the only air-conditioned room on that entire compound.
[00:03:00] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, they get used to that heat over there. It's amazing. It is amazing. Before we dig too deep into your career and the books you've written and that kind of thing, I want to go back to your maybe to your childhood a little bit. Growing up in Colorado, what are two or three things that you remember most about your childhood?
[00:03:18] Larry O'Nan: My father was a pastor in Western Colorado at the time. And Tommy, the things that stuck with my head the most was learning to do something from nothing. Dad was encouraging. I had a horse that was 36 inches tall, a Grand Canyon pony horse. And I learned to make money with that little rascal.
He about killed me on a race, but I decided that I could take him to the richer part of my town. And for a quarter, I could get a kid to ride on the back of the horse and I could make more money in three hours as a 10- or 12-year-old than I could if I was doing anything else. So, learning to do something from nothing, taking an idea and creating something from it.
And believe it or not, over and over again in my life, I've seen that same pattern kick into gear many times. Because too many times I was told to go do it, but there's no plan.
[00:04:09] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like in Western Colorado?
[00:04:13] Larry O'Nan: Western Colorado is a unique area in that we were the major town between Denver and Salt Lake.
And it was a rural community, but it was also a cosmopolitan mixing area. It was the largest city, and it was there that I got involved in theater a great deal. I knew I was going to become famous in the theater world for five years. Even into my junior year in college, I knew that's where I was aiming.
I began not only liking the acting, but I really got into the directing and the back of the scene, what goes on behind to make a show work. Again, it was taking something from almost nothing and creating in six weeks, a full production of South Pacific or you name the shows that we did. We did a lot of major shows.
[00:04:59] Larry O'Nan: And over again, when I was in high school, I started seeing that there was a need for some people to come in and do the backside of the curtain to make the front of the curtain actually work. And so I've enjoyed the backside of the curtain all my life and standing back in the back of a room, watching it happen when it goes off.
So that was my high school days. From there, I went to university. And majored in theater up to my junior year in college when I decided I wanted to get out of that field and ended up with a double major in English education and was supposed to become a drama coach and a debate coach and an English teacher.
And I never went that way. I went into full time ministry.
[00:05:43] Tommy Thomas: What are people always surprised to find out about you?
[00:05:47] Larry O'Nan: Oh, my goodness. What were they surprised to find out about me? Probably that I think it was a surprise to even me too, is that when I would make a commitment to do something, I later discovered I have a high degree of responsibility in my whole system, but I cannot give up on things.
When I say I'm going to do something, I do it, and that's probably surprised me as much as it did them. But it would also bother me when things happen when people would not follow through. Because to me, everybody should have that same value. I discover people are different, but in defining what my strengths were, I really discovered one of those was maximizing the occasion, but the other one was a driving force to be responsible, to get it done.
Even today. I've got to say no, because if I say yes, I'm caught with a responsibility to carry through and do something.
[00:06:41] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about the first time you had people reporting to you as a manager?
[00:06:48] Larry O'Nan: When I was in my second year at the University of Pennsylvania, working with Campus Crusade in the Ivy League area, I was assigned a responsibility to have a music group come through the area. And they gave me 30 days of time with that group. And I decided if I was going to have them for 30 days and they were going to charge me by the day, I was going to get my money out of them.
And I about killed the group because I started organizing people on every campus in five states to get ready for this group to come to town. And we did, I think 32 concerts in 30 days. They never told me not to do it. They just told me to schedule the group and I overscheduled them. But I had good teams on all these campuses, both Ivy League and state campuses and Christian colleges that were in that area.
[00:07:38] Larry O'Nan: And I learned from that experience that people will do what you tell them to do if you lay out a clear plan and help them get there. So, to me, it's not about me getting the credit, it's about the people that I recruit to do the job where they own it. And then I can sit back and help them be successful at it.
For years, that's the way I functioned. Now, later, I got into developing more people when I got into early fund development. There was only two of us who started off with a huge project that no one had any clue what to do about. But within 13 years, I had about 100 people and seven departments working for me.
[00:08:18] Larry O'Nan: And again, it was more of a facilitator role and an encourager role that I saw my leadership to be not a one that went ahead and get it done. So even when I started writing books and doing other things, I developed teams that were working on those things and they had as much ownership on the project that I did, and they felt that ownership, I think, and it carried the whole program.
So, to say I was really leading. Yeah, I was influenced, but I was more by encouraging them to go get the job done and help us get it done together. So that happened.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:08:54] Tommy Thomas: So, you were on the campus staff. How did you get over into fundraising?
[00:09:02] Larry O'Nan: I almost tripped over that one. I did two years at the University of Pennsylvania. Then that music group came through. It was called the New Folk at the time.
And when I killed them in 30 days, they asked me that summer, if I would move out of the campus ministry and had started advancing that Eastern United States group that had, I think, 30 states under its wing.
And I started doing the advanced work and setting up all of their concerts for the next couple of years. And that led me into music. Eventually, after a number of years there, I put seven groups together for the Ministry of Crew and both Asia and Africa and Europe, and then a number of groups here in the United States.
[00:09:44] Larry O'Nan: I found myself in 1972 out of a job, and I was asked by the then Senior Vice President of the organization if I would help him with a project and I took a brand-new staff guy into that room to say, what is the project? And he went to his hotel bathroom. He was headquartered in an old facility that had hotel rooms that were converted to offices.
He pulled back the shower curtain. There were 28 boxes of pledge cards. Representing almost 2 million in pledges made by 80,000 students in Dallas, Texas earlier that summer. It had been 90 days since those boxes had been touched. No one had a clue what was in them and the only responsibilities, could you take these boxes and see if you can convert them into commitments from the people that made these pledges.
[00:10:36] Larry O'Nan: So, 90 days later, those 28 boxes started saying, this is what you call fund development. And I had no clue. No one was, there was no roadmap. There was nobody advising us. We just had to make it successful. And that got me into fund development. And little did I know that those 28 boxes would lead to a career that included 30 years of consulting with Christian nonprofits after that.
It was a journey that I never expected, but it was using all my skill package. So, the way I did that job all those years was just leveraging my strengths and staying away from my weaknesses.
[00:11:18] Tommy Thomas: So, I guess I didn't think about this back then. So, you were a year into this when I came along.
[00:11:25] Larry O'Nan: I probably was about a year into it. I think Tommy, you and I were heavily involved in the I Found It campaign, the Here's Life America campaign that was going on. That was one of those jobs I was assigned. This is before you got there, but it was basically we need to raise 12 to 15 million in the next two years. How are you going to do it?
And again, there was no plan. There was no advice. There was nobody telling us what to do. I was working casually with a consulting firm out of New York, shared with them the challenge that was before me, and he helped me formulate a plan. And we raised about 12 million in 18 months. But it was going from zero.
[00:12:09] Larry O'Nan: And I think you came into play through that process. And we recruited representatives to work across the United States. I think I had about 15 or 18 field reps. And we were training cities how to raise the money to accomplish their city objectives. So again, it was taking something from nothing, creating an idea, formulating a plan, and then working the plan.
And that pattern is, I've done that over and over again over my years. So, you and I started when there was nobody telling us what to do. And those days it was a wing and a prayer and Tommy go get on an airplane and go do X. And if we had an hour or two or a day before, we would figure out what to do the next day and we'd go do it.
[00:12:58] Larry O'Nan: We could have failed miserably, Tommy, but that was okay. I learned a long time ago, and even in the book that I've written, I did a foreword about the freedom to fail. And I was afraid to step out and do things, and I had a guy that I was working with, and he said, Larry, freedom to fail is what you've got.
No one's ever done it before. Go ahead and step into it. All you can do is go back and do it again. If it doesn't work, then try something else. And freedom to fail never became a barrier to me. It became “if this is not the way to do it, we'll figure it out later and tweak it and do it again”. So that's how it started.
[00:13:35] Larry O'Nan: And I ended up spending 13 years doing the ministry of Cru, and then I consulted with them for another 10 - 12 years beyond that. As one of my clients when I was doing the fund development, because at that time, I was specializing in major partner development, and we were doing a lot of other initiatives, and I worked with them.
Just this last week, I was in Spain and repeated some of the same stuff that we did 45 years ago in Spain again, except not in the context of Cru now. But if what Cru gave birth to is a network of nonprofit Christian organizations, and in this case in Europe. They were jokingly calling me the great grandfather of this activity that I was attending, because I was there and the guys that I trained and equipped and mentored were there, and then the leadership that they had developed through their work were there, and we had about 150 people at that conference.
From 20 countries, sitting in about 15 organizations. It's fun to watch it work because you can stand in the back of the room and say, my goodness, this really did work.
[00:14:47] Tommy Thomas: Go back to failure for a minute. Why do you think most of us are afraid to fail?
[00:14:54] Larry O'Nan: I think there's an expectation that failure is bad to begin with. So, we hear the word failure, and we don't want to fail. But when you realize that if you don't have the freedom to fail, you may not take the risks that will take to get the job done. I've seen people have never reached their maximum potential because they're stumbling about what would happen if it didn't work?
And I had the same feeling when I first started these things, and nobody was there to walk beside me. And then when I realized that if you don't do it one way, you just roll up your sleeves and go try another way. Now, I believe that if you learn a pattern and then mess up too much on it, that needs to be corrected.
[00:15:40] Larry O'Nan: But generally, I think most people are afraid to fail. In fact, my concern is that I watched the Z generation. I've got a 23-year-old grandson, and there's a lot of these kids that are really afraid to step out and be bold and do something. They're almost frozen because they could get whiplash and could really take them down.
And their self-esteem, they don't want to fail. So, they won't do anything. They will end up taking no less of a job. They will not take the risks. And that's the sad part. I feel like we got to help people endorse failure. I looked at the Old Testament. Moses had a huge potential failure when he picked up two million people in Egypt to go across the desert and it took him 40 years to get there.
[00:16:25] Larry O'Nan: But he figured out how to navigate that particular venue with all the problems they had. But I think God gives us the freedom to fail. I don't think God is up there with a big stick saying, I'm going to give you a lower grade because it didn't work out right.
I think that the key to good leadership is giving people the freedom to fail. I just think a lot of young adults coming up today are almost frozen and maybe the expectation on them is not fair as well.
[00:16:56] Tommy Thomas: So yeah, failure is tied into risk. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken?
[00:17:05] Larry O'Nan: Probably stepping into some arenas where I knew the potential of it not succeeding was really great, but we had to do it anyway.
I was involved with a dream of Dr. Bill Bright to see a billion dollars raised for the Great Commission and the amount of funding and the way we were going to go about doing it was petrifying. But if you didn't step out and test some of those ideas out, you never would have known they worked. At that time the only organizations in the U.S. that achieved a billion dollars of income of any kind was probably Harvard and Stanford. And we were in an evangelical nonprofit culture. And the idea of raising money that had never ever been raised before was just a big gulp. And it was a huge risk because the reputation hangs on the risk.
Now, I was not the upfront guy. I was doing much more of the logistics. And making it happen, but it takes those kinds of people behind the scenes. You can have a good guy on the platform, but if he doesn't know what he's doing, it's going to crumble pretty fast.
++++++++++++++++
[00:18:22] Tommy Thomas: What have you learned about resilience over the years?
[00:18:27] Larry O'Nan: Keep at it. I think there's a tendency to if it doesn't work you get out of here. In fact, a few weeks ago, somebody said the frustration that I have with the young generation is that in fact, this was a tax guy. He said for most adults, they come in and they have a W2 form, or they have maybe two jobs, maybe three, if they're really getting entrepreneurial.
He said the young generation is coming in with 10 or 12 W2 forms because they kept quitting and going to something else. He said they don't know where they're going because they don't stay long enough to figure out even what they're good at. And I think that is a reflection on our culture. But I'm still committed to trying to help people look at the longer term.
[00:19:14] Larry O'Nan: My grandson just graduated from Biola University, and I said to him a few weeks ago, I said, now, the key thing is to stay at this job for 8, 10 weeks because his tendency is if this doesn't work, there's probably something over here that could work. Now he's not one to jump fast, but much of the culture jumps fast.
So, to be on the job for two weeks and quit because you don't like the hours, you don't learn very much that way.
Tommy, when you and I were doing what we were doing together, we were sticking through it for two or three years at a time, slugging up against all kinds of risks and all kinds of barriers. And I think we had some good times, but we did not know where we were going. God seemed to be getting us there.
[00:20:01] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, I'm thinking back. I don't ever remember thinking about quitting. It was hard at times. But we did have good times along the way.
We had things to celebrate and for the most part we got there. I think we were a pretty good fundraising group, that group of 15 that you had together. And then the tour we took when I managed that music group, the Crossroads, when we brought them in from Asia and I think back. I don't think that I've thought about quitting, I don't have any kids or grandkids, so I'm probably not as tied to these next generations as a lot of my guests are. So I'm always interested in what you're seeing out there and in that context.
[00:20:43] Larry O'Nan: We were doing that Tommy back in those days and I called it fundraising back then. Now I'm a consultant with funded up mode, but fundraising is really an exchange. It's I get something, and you get something. Unfortunately, that's what is going on in most of the activities.
My direct mail stuff that I get from all kinds of political and non-political sources is offering me something in exchange for something else. Almost every one of them. If not, they're trying to lean on my emotion of what's going to happen to a kid if I don't send them money. So, it 's fundraising.
Now I'm not anti-fundraising. I don't think it's sinful. It is manipulated to a great extent because if you use the right words and say the right things, you can bend a person to do something that they may not want to do. With fundraising there is also the concept of the donor. And our secular society has used that term very broadly.
[00:21:45] Larry O'Nan: A donor is a person that gives blood, gets a needle in his arm, resists the fact that he had to do it, but sometimes does it for the higher cause of what the blood will do. And if he gets anything, it's a sugar cube or a cookie at the end of sitting there giving blood. I always cringed at fundraising and having donors because I felt like there was a higher calling and we were trying to get money.
So even during the times that you were working with him, we were doing good fundraising. Yeah, but we were not yet into Fund Development.
Fund development is the word. Development itself is steps and stages in growth and advancement. That means you have to take a person on a journey for them to see what they can do and what can happen together.
[00:22:35] Larry O'Nan: And then when I really got into the Theology of Stewardship, I dismissed the word fundraising and donor completely from the vocabulary.
We started calling them partners. We started using the word Fund Development, not fundraising. We started seeing that the people that could give resources were equally involved in ministry, just as much as I was involved in ministry.
[00:22:59] Larry O'Nan: I just had a different ministry. I was helping spend some of their money, and they were giving the money that God had entrusted to them. So, the radical change came in about 1978-79, when as a circumstance, I was assigned to figure out the Theology of Stewardship for Cru. They could say, knowing about Cru's history they must have had a very solid organization.
It was a wing and a prayer with a visionary behind it. So, the visionary was a post war, and at that time, a handshake was as good as your word. So, the people in the ministry like Cru were doing it and it was relational development. I would say that true, but it really was a, I have no idea what I need next.
[00:23:57] Larry O'Nan: But now if I figure out what I need next, I'll ask you again. So, there was some core concepts there, but there wasn't a fund development initiative or a strategy at that time. And I raised my personal support with minimal training and a prayer over me. That was about it. And that's the way you probably did.
It was not until the late seventies when I was assigned and what had actually happened, Tommy, was I was invited to a meeting. I had been fairly successful with you and other strategies. We were raising funding, and I was invited to a meeting and the people that were in the meeting were higher up than I was.
[00:24:39] Larry O'Nan: And I was probably one of about a dozen people in this room. And we had consultants advising the ministry on if it was even possible for a Christian ministry to raise a billion dollars. And they'd done the study, they'd done feasibility work, they'd done all their homework, and they said it's possible to do that, but if you do not figure out how to teach stewardship, you're going to create enemies rather than partners.
Because many ministries will see you competing and taking money out of the orchard, so to speak, rather than expanding the orchard. The Ministry of Cru was not prepared to set up another ministry, and the consultants were very firm on that meeting that day, and I was just that little nobody in the room and listening to all of this.
[00:25:29] Larry O'Nan: And somebody in the room as they, it was an impasse of this has got to happen or you probably were not going to raise the resources. And somebody said why don't we just sign that to Larry and let him figure out what the stewardship theology is of Campus Crusade. And that got the entire room to say, okay, we delegated that responsibility off, let's get back to more strategic things related to the campaign.
But in my area of responsibility, now I had an assignment, and I was responsible to figure out something that nobody probably that day really cared if I ever figured out. But I did, because it was a responsibility that was assigned to me. And about, within the next two years, I brought two or three guys along with me, and we said, what in the world would a stewardship theology be?
[00:26:17] Larry O'Nan: What is, what are we meaning by that? And we started looking at Scripture. And other things that were written out there. And we started to formulate what we would call a stewardship theology. And that radically changed what we did into the early eighties and moving forward, because now we were involving and inviting partners to be involved in changing the world rather than just begging for money and running from it.
And it radically changed. I think even Cru today and many organizations I worked with, probably 30 organizations over the last 30 years. And I've tried to impact their thinking about how they see their people, how they relate to them. And you get a lot more people in partnership when you're treating them as partners.
[00:27:02] Larry O'Nan: Joining hands and walking together in this world, rather than, I am the one that's called in the ministry, and you've got money, so please give it to me so I can go spend it. I'm responsible to the steward and ironically, the steward never gives up his responsibility of his stewardship.
So, if a man is making significant money or a couple has made good money in their business, A good steward does not just give it away and dispense it. They want to know how you're doing with it. So, accountability. I want to go see it. I want to touch it. I want to know why you did it the way you did.
[00:27:40] Larry O'Nan: What's the ROI? Are we making an investment? It's God's resources at work. How are you spending it correctly? It changes the dynamic of a lot of things. If you're looking at stewards correctly and realizing, it's a God ordained assignment that we've got as individuals. to use whatever God's given us effectively.
So, I've been on this trip for a long time, and I love it. I never knew I would be getting into it. That wasn't my plan. It started off with those 20 boxes.
[00:28:14] Tommy Thomas: I'm just saying you got me thinking. The first time I remember the term fund development was when my wife and I were working with the YMCA, and they didn't call it fundraising.
They called it Fund Development. And now that I'm looking back and thinking about that, it seemed like we were partnering with people more than we were just you know, asking for a contribution. So that makes a lot of sense.
[00:28:40] Larry O'Nan: And the concept of stewardship is way beyond if you're a believer or not a believer. God basically has created us to take care of his stuff. He never gave it to us. So, you'll see in scripture that God gave them, gave the Garden of Eden to them. No, he didn't give it to them. He allowed them to live in his garden. His basic assignment to Adam and Eve, if you go back to Genesis 2, was to take care of my stuff and you can name all the animals.
And I'm going to come down. I'm going to be so interested in what you're doing that in the cool of the day, we're going to walk around the garden and talk with each other. But the responsibility of being a steward was not taken away from Adam when he blew it. He was going to make a lot more work for him.
[00:29:25] Larry O'Nan: He had to go pull weeds and take care of things differently by the sweat of his brow, as the scripture said. But the responsibility never changed. God still owns it all, and God wants us to take care of his stuff. Now, God's got five other things he wants us to do as well, but they're all related to stewardship.
It's when an organization embraces the idea of partnering with the ministry, whether I chair a board of an organization here in San Bernardino County called Santa Claus Incorporated. That's its legal name. In 1951, it was incorporated as Santa Claus Incorporated, and we help about 225,000 kids a year that are some of the most desperate kids in Riverside and San Bernardino counties.
[00:30:11] Larry O'Nan: And it's all about finding partners to work with us so that those kids can have what they need in terms of sometimes toys at Christmas. It could be shoes. It could be anything else they need. Backpacks. We work with school districts. We work with kids in crisis that are coming out of homes that the state's taken kids away from their parents.
And it's all about helping the kid have a sense of well-being while he's under a state of crisis. But over and over again, the stewardship there is that we've got people nationally, and locally, they volunteer their time, they volunteer their money internationally, their organizations that are partnering with us to help us through, we work with some very large nonprofit facilitating type groups in New York and Washington DC that help us get goods.
[00:31:06] Larry O'Nan: So, we give around six and a half million dollars’ worth of product away every year because of partnerships. Nobody feels like we have gouged them for money. Nobody feels like we've messed up their life. We've not been offensive to them. They are seeing that we're working together to accomplish a goal.
So, whether it's a secular, humanitarian, or a very fine church, or a very fine nonprofit, evangelistic group, whatever it is, are we really treating and working in partnership with the people that God has placed in the hands of that organization to make that organization work? And when you mess up, they stop giving, but they don't, their money doesn't disappear, but they'll give it someplace else.
If you abuse a relationship, they're going to go someplace else.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:31:54] Tommy Thomas: Join us next week, as we conclude this conversation with Larry O’Nan. We will continue our discussion about lifestyle stewardship and fund development. I also asked Larry to talk a bit about his new book, Intentional Living and Giving, which was released in early April.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Larry O’Nan’s Website
Larry O’Nan’s Email: Larry@LarryONan.com
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] Carl LaBarbera: I met a guy, Dick Berry, who was a professional in the Policy Governance arena. And once I took his class, I was convinced that this was what I needed to do board work. And the reason for that is because primarily my own work in aerospace industry, knowing that systems and procedures are essential to do any kind of job that's going to be effective.
[00:00:26] Carl LaBarbera: And when Policy Governance was presented that's the kind of system that I was seeing. And so, a complete, scientific system with procedures and thinking about all the elements of governance was something I needed.
[00:00:42] Tommy Thomas: My guest today is Carl LaBarbera. I met Carl several years ago at his home in Southern California. He was gracious to give me a couple of hours that afternoon, and we've maintained some loose contact with each other since then. One of the areas of expertise he has is that of Policy Governance, and I've known that, from the afternoon I met him, so as I was thinking about more guests we could have in the area of board service, Carl was one of the ones I wanted to have, so thank you, Carl, for joining us this afternoon.
[00:01:14] Carl LaBarbera: Thank you, Tommy. It's my pleasure to be here and look forward to our conversation.
[00:01:19] Tommy Thomas: Before we dig too deep into Policy Governance, how did you get interested in or involved in nonprofit board service?
[00:01:29] Carl LaBarbera: That goes back 40 years. So, it's interesting. I don't know how far back you want me to go.
[00:01:37] Carl LaBarbera: I can go back to my childhood because my dad had a company in inner city LA which is a very difficult area.
[00:01:48] Tommy Thomas: Back then, especially,
[00:01:49] Carl LaBarbera: When I was a very young child, I was 11 years old when the Watts Riots occurred. And my mother and I were driving into the business in South LA.
[00:01:59] Carl LaBarbera: And the Watts Riots were underway. And my mom swears that a black woman flagged off attackers. She was in front of us, and we were able to drive into the business, but we had no idea. The news was not like it is today. We literally drove into it. So that obviously left a big impression on me as a kid.
[00:02:22] Carl LaBarbera: And I've had a heart for the inner city ever since. And we continued, actually, my brother and I took over the business that my dad had started and in 1957 after the war and in continued in that Watts area, but then we were bought out by the freeway and moved just slightly south of there in an area in Linwood, which is still South LA
[00:02:48] Carl LaBarbera: So that connection of having a business in that community and actually knowing the neighbors in that community, in the Watts community, which was primarily African American gave me that heart. And then I was listening to Focus on The Family. I would wake up in the morning, six o'clock in the morning, with Focus on The Family on the radio.
[00:03:09] Carl LaBarbera: And Dr. Dobson was talking with Keith Phillips, who is the founder of World Impact, and talking about Watts. And I thought to myself, wow, that's literally across the street. And so, I made a journey to introduce myself to World Impact. At the time it was a Canadian director who was leading that Watts ministry.
[00:03:33] Carl LaBarbera: And we got to become good friends in our company partnered with World Impact to help the missionaries in the Watts community and help them in any way we can to support them in their ministry.
[00:03:45] Tommy Thomas: Wow. That goes back a long way.
[00:03:49] Carl LaBarbera: We're talking 1990s. Yeah. At the time I met him, it was late eighties or early nineties.
[00:03:55] Tommy Thomas: Did you have any kind of mentorship relative to board service? Did you have a model or a role model?
[00:04:03] Carl LaBarbera: I think, my interest in board work really began with our own company. That was the work that I love to do, having a 30,000-foot perspective, being able to work at that high level, conceptual level seeing all the pieces in an organization the teamwork necessary to make an organization successful.
[00:04:25] Carl LaBarbera: I got a hunger for that level of leadership in our own company, but where I was introduced to Policy Governance was at the Christian Management Association. So, I was a member of the association, which was called the Christian Management Association. Now it's called Christian Leadership Alliance.
[00:04:44] Carl LaBarbera: And I met a guy, Dick Berry, who was a professional in the Policy Governance arena. And once I took his class, I was convinced that this was what I needed to do board work. And the reason for that is because primarily my own work in the aerospace industry, knowing that systems and procedures are essential to do any kind of job that's going to be effective.
[00:05:11] Carl LaBarbera: And when Policy Governance was presented that's the kind of system that I was seeing. And so, a complete, scientific system with procedures and thinking about all the elements of governance was something I needed. And then of course, serving with a friend from church who was an urban ministry leader when he started his nonprofit Urban Youth Workers Institute and asked me to join his board and chair his board, John Carver.
[00:05:44] Carl LaBarbera: It was like, what do I use to run a board? Because there's really nothing other than best practice information as to how you actually chair and run a board, how you lead a board. And so that's why policy governance just rung a bell for me, and I knew it was something I had to learn and be very good at.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:06:05] Tommy Thomas: Get up at 50,000, 100,000 feet and look down. What's the primary purpose of the nonprofit board?
One role of the Board is dealing with the risk factor. Mitigating or at least evaluate risk to determine what’s acceptable and what’s not acceptable.
[00:06:12] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, there is one, one primary purpose with two parts actually. And I can just simplify that to say get the mission done and stay out of trouble. So, there's two elements. And what we say, what we call mission, and we call ENDS is what benefit for what people at what worth.
[00:06:33] Carl LaBarbera: So those three elements make up the mission or the ENDS. And then there's the risk factor. So, a board is there to mitigate risk or at least evaluate risk and to determine what's acceptable and what's not acceptable but that's the keeping the organization out of trouble part, right?
[00:06:51] Carl LaBarbera: So, get the mission done, stay out of trouble. That's their primary purpose. And, but let me add that all that's done on behalf of someone. Especially in nonprofits, in a corporation, right? You are beholden to the shareholders. A board works on behalf of the shareholders. There are no shareholders in the nonprofit world, but what Carver was smart enough to know is that we're, the board is beholden to some, they don't own the organization, the CEO, the staff, they don't own the organization, who owns the organization?
[00:07:25] Carl LaBarbera: In the church, we say Jesus owns it. Of course, he owns it all, but Jesus owns the organization, which is cool because he left us a whole book of values that we know that we are beholden to, that we need to comply with. But secondarily, there are owners or what we call care holders or stakeholders on the organization.
[00:07:49] Carl LaBarbera: I could talk about the global church as owning a nonprofit. So, we need to be aware of the values of the global church. We could talk about those that the organization impacts. Not the beneficiaries so much, but the communities that would have an interest in the organization. So, when we determine who the owners are, the moral owners, we call them, who is interested in seeing this organization succeed, who is interested in the benefits that this nonprofit will bring.
[00:08:24] Carl LaBarbera: And those are the people that we are beholden to, not in a democratic way, not like we're looking for them to give us majority rule direction, but in a way like a doctor or a lawyer would work in the best interest of their ownership. So, the client comes to the doctor. Obviously, the client knows something about their ailment, but the doctor knows more, they're an informed agent.
[00:08:50] Carl LaBarbera: Or Robert Greenleaf would say a trustee. So, a trustee, their job is to follow the direction of the trust that is given to them. And that trust is the trust that the ownership holds. And so, the board is to determine what are those values and determine what is in the best interest of those stakeholders.
[00:09:12] Carl LaBarbera: That derives a whole set of policies, which then give direction to the organization.
The role of the Board Chair is that of Chief Governance Officer – making sure that the Board accomplishes what is says it is going to do.
[00:09:21] Tommy Thomas: Under this model, what's the primary role of the Board Chair?
[00:09:25] Carl LaBarbera: The Board Chair is called the C.G.O. So Chief Governing Officer. So, the Chief Governing Officer, the primary role really is to assure that the board accomplishes what it says it's going to do.
In a sense, the chairman is a manager of the board itself to assure that whatever they said they were going to do, because they have a role, they have a job description, and to assure that they get that job done. But I'd also say that the chair is the interface or maybe the primary interface with the CEO.
It's very important that chairman has a really solid relationship with the CEO, that there's a clear understanding that there's complete communication on both sides in order for that chairman to do his job well.
[00:10:16] Tommy Thomas: Give me some words and phrases that maybe would describe the skillset that this chair needs to do his or her job well.
[00:10:25] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, that really starts with character. Especially in a Christian organization, but any nonprofit really, but it's the character. So that's essential. I think essential elements are wisdom over a lot of experience, preferably humility is very important.
I think a humble leader, a servant leader. So, I love Robert Greenleaf and all his writing on servant leadership, and I'm deeply indebted to Robert Greenleaf and his description of what a servant leader does. So that chairman really needs to be that servant leader like Jesus commanded. If you want to be a leader in the kingdom, you have to be the least of all. So that chairman serves the board, and they serve the CEO and they serve the organization.
[00:11:13] Tommy Thomas: I know this would vary, but just from your experience, how often does the chair meet with the CEO to maintain this relationship and this esprit de corps?
[00:11:25] Carl LaBarbera: World Impact is a good example. And Alvin Sanders, the CEO, and I have a standing meeting once a week on a Monday morning. And we try to communicate with one another on a regular basis just to have that regular flow of communication, what's going on in your world.
What's going on from my perspective. And, of course, planning together what the agenda is going to be for the year and for the next meeting. All those things are critical and talking through what issues are important for the CEO to comply with the board policy manual.
The board has created, in helping that process. A lot of times I need to help educate the CEO in the process of Policy Governance. Because there are not a lot of Policy Governance experts out there. And yeah, you don't see that a lot. So, part of it is educating as well.
[00:12:19] Tommy Thomas: When you get a new board member what's the best way to onboard this person?
[00:12:25] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah. The first thing we do is provide the documents that we've created. So, it's really important for a new board member to understand the process, certainly. So, what is this process called Policy Governance? It's very different from what most people experience. I think I know beyond several boards that many board members want to show up and display their wisdom and their good decision-making skills.
And that's really not, that's not what the board is all about. We want that, certainly, but the board needs to understand the process. The beauty of Policy Governance is that all of the things that need to be known are in a policy, a board policy manual, and that manual is less than 30 pages, and it covers all four aspects of what we would call the policy circle regarding CEO role the board role, the chairman role the interaction between the board and the CEO what the mission is and what the limitations are, the things that we can't do as an organization, even if they worked, things illegal or unbiblical.
A good Board Policy Manual provides invaluable information for new Board members. This manual is usually less than 30 pages.
So that board policy manual really provides invaluable information to anyone coming on board gives them all the information they need. They're not going to get it all in the first read through, but all the information is there, and they can study that. And the other thing we do is, obviously we want them to know what the bylaws are and what the expectations are in terms of meetings, etc. So, it's really just a quick update getting board members up to date on where we've been, where we're going, and how we operate.
[00:14:14] Tommy Thomas: Let me ask you to get you to respond to this quote about a board service. Somebody said, “You need a director on a board who will be a pleasant irritant, someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.”
[00:14:29] Carl LaBarbera: I love that because one of the things I strive for is called healthy, I call it healthy conflict. There's probably a better word than conflict, healthy discussion, which means we really want honest feedback from all our board members. So having that, and we definitely have those.
A good irritant is someone who really is just thinking through. They're thinking from their perspective, and they're offering their perspective, and we need to hear it. Even if it's opposed to the direction that, we think we need to go, we need to know who was it that talked about Ruth Haley Barton.
She talked about working together, finding God's will together. And you really need in teams, and I think it's any team, but including a board team, you need to know what the no people are saying. If someone's really objecting to where we're going, it's pertinent on us to determine what God is saying to that person.
Why are they adamantly opposed? And if we don't take the time to figure that out, then we're neglecting our duty. As a board, so not again, obviously, you don't always achieve consensus, but I've been in situations on boards where we have worked it through taking some time and ultimately say there are two people that maybe don't agree, but they relent and say, we will submit to the wisdom of the board. And of course, one of the principles of Policy Governance is that we speak with one voice. After all the discussion and we finally get to the end of the day and we vote and some have to acknowledge that we don't agree, but we are going to speak with one voice when we're done with our work. So that's critical.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:16:23] Tommy Thomas: Your thoughts on bringing younger people in their thirties and forties onto a nonprofit board?
[00:16:30] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, I would love to see that. And I would love to see young people have that interest. My experience has been that young people aren't the younger generation, millennials, maybe is my experience aren't as interested in what they might consider business-like work. So, say in a church setting, right? Or even in a Christian ministry setting, this is a business job in which I really have a problem with that because I'm a firm believer that God owns it all that he works through business and churches and our ministry happens in all realms of life, right?
But that kind of perspective is, yeah, I don't want to be involved in that kind of business process, but every time I've seen young people engage in the process, it is so helpful. So, I would be a big fan. Where do we find them? I have seen them in the governance organization governed for impact, which I'm a fellow with, and we have seen their young people take a real interest in governance.
And when they do, then it's highly valuable. We need their perspective, right? This is where the world's going.
[00:17:49] Tommy Thomas: For sure.
[00:17:51] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah. We need millennial perspective. We need Z perspective. Yeah, I value that. I wish we could get more of it.
[00:17:59] Tommy Thomas: I run into this a lot in my work and has to do with the past CEO being a member of the board when, when you bring a new CEO on, your thoughts just from so many years of experience that you've had any observations there.
It can be very difficult when a retiring CEO, especially a founder wants to remain as an emeritus Board Member. That can restrict the ability of the new CEO to make mistakes and/or go in a different direction if that’s what the organization needs.
[00:18:14] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, that's tough. I've seen that in churches. I've seen it, I've seen it in other nonprofits. It's just, it's very difficult because when a CEO, who's especially a founder, CEO or a founding pastor and wants to be an emeritus board member or emeritus leader, even that really restricts the ability of that new CEO to be free to make mistakes and go in a different direction to bring their unique skill set because each leader has a unique skill set and they should be allowed to use that.
And so I just, I see it often doesn't work out very well. And you hear the phrase that you don't want to be the next guy. You want to be the guy after the next guy. Because oftentimes that first guy is still hanging around and influencing where it's going. And that could be debilitating.
[00:19:06] Tommy Thomas: This is probably in your Policy Governance manual but tell us about CEO evaluation.
[00:19:13] Carl LaBarbera: That's an ongoing process. So, it is not a once-a-year process, although we do a summarized once-a-year process, but in the board policy manual the policies pertain particularly to the CEO or the executive director or the lead pastor. Those things that are called the Ends. So those are what benefits for what people at what worth. And then there are the executive limitations. And there are quite a few of those limitations, as I said before, that are not allowed, even if they work, because they're illegal or biblical or other reasons.
And so, we constantly have a calendar of monitoring. So there's a very specific process of monitoring those limitations, how that CEO is complying with the limitations, and how they're complying with the accomplishment of the mission or the end. And so that's done, I think the Ends probably are mostly done on a biannual basis, but the executive limitations as I said, on a calendar, they're done every meeting. We're evaluating some aspects of that CEO's performance.
[00:20:30] Tommy Thomas: So, under Policy Governance, do you use closed session or executive session a lot? Or is that not a part of the M.O.
[00:20:40] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, no, not a lot at all. These are, there's nothing that is considered, not transparent unless there's something to do with, specific HR issues or something where it would be a problem legally, but otherwise now I believe in transparency. I believe this, everything we do at the board level should be transparent. I know as I chaired or on the executive committee at our church, everything we do there should be transparent to our membership. But it's, we do have, I know at World Impact, there is a session at the end of the year where we look at all the policy governance elements that either were complied or not complied with, but then we also get a little more personal and try to talk about their spiritual life, their personal life how, the communication with the board.
So those are, those get to be touchy conversations, but necessary because that's part of the board's job is really to assure it's one of three responsibilities the board can't delegate. And that is to assure the success of the CEO and thus the organization.
[00:21:57] Tommy Thomas: On strategic planning, from your perspective, how deep should the board get into that, or is that something that the CEO and his or her cabinet brings to the board?
[00:22:08] Carl LaBarbera: I'd like to think of strategic planning as a continuum of planning, right? When we do the ENDS work, the ENDS, again, are the high-level mission.
It's what benefit, what people, at what worth. That is, that's the highest level of the strategic planning process. The board can get more specific about that policy of ENDS or mission, but then they stop. The job of the board is to stop communicating at the point which they're willing to allow any reasonable interpretation of that mission, right?
It's hard work to determine that. So, trying to determine what it is that the board has to say to a CEO about the mission, but then allow freedom for him to have any reasonable interpretation or any strategic plan that can accomplish those ENDS. That's the delicate part of developing that particular set of policies. It takes a lot of wisdom, prayer, and determination. You don't want to say too much because if the board is saying too much and prescribing too much, then that is not allowing our professional CEO to do their job well.
++++++++++++++++
[00:23:30] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to something that happened in mine and your era. People younger than us may not remember this, but certainly we do - the Enron scandal. And although they weren't a nonprofit, I'm sure there are things a nonprofit board can learn from that. But one of the writers that did some analysis there, his perspective was that probably the board didn't ask the tough questions that they needed to ask. How do you get that done in a nonprofit?
[00:23:58] Carl LaBarbera: Absolutely. And the way we get it done is through the policy manual. In the manual itself, in those executive limitations, we're asking the hard questions up front. There are limitations regarding financials. There are limitations regarding asset protection.
There are limitations regarding staff. There are limitations regarding the relationship with the CEO to the board and all these things, safety issues. So that is the role of the board, is to think through. And Carver was genius about this in a scientific way. He thought through a dozen different categories of risk that the board needs to think about ahead of time.
And of course, you're not going to think about all risks that can happen, especially today. It's so hard to figure out what's going to come at you at a pretty hard and rapid pace, but for the most part, to think in general, in a systematic way, what are all the risks that an organization might encounter?
And to think about that in a systematic way and do it ahead of time and have those boundaries in place, which then provides the CEO freedom to do anything else. The beauty of policy governance is it lays out the boundaries of acceptability, like a football field and says, you have to stay within these parameters, within these limits, within the rules that we've outlined.
You could do anything else to achieve your end if they haven't already been stated. So it's empowering to the CEO. It gives freedom to the CEO. It gives them freedom to make mistakes. But does provide those boundaries, which is clear communication between the board and the CEO.
[00:25:45] Tommy Thomas: Go back to the Board Chair for a minute. So you got but the two or three questions that I like to ask that, that I think the answers are good and one of them is, you get all the high power, which you want people that have got experience in making tough decisions dealing with complexity, dealing with risk But sometimes it's difficult for the, for those people to take the CEO hat off when they walk into the boardroom and become a member of the whole.
Have you experienced that in recruiting board members and how have you effectively coached them into good board service?
[00:26:19] Carl LaBarbera: So, are you asking, I just want to be clear, you're asking about those who have been or are CEOs that now become a part of the board, that kind of leader?
[00:26:29] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, they're probably still the CEO in their organization and they've got an expertise that you need on the board.
[00:26:34] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, exactly. Now that is a difficulty because, CEOs by nature are built to want to do strategy and make decisions and get things done. That is not the job of the board. And so, they really have to, and that's one of those characteristics of a good board members, you need to really set aside maybe your own leadership gifts to allow yourself to be a part of this team who is now going to operate from a 30,000 foot perspective, not at the operational level.
Under Policy Governance, the Board’s role is governance – not management. That is a critical element of governance.
Because that's not where we work. We are governance is not management. That is a critical element of governance. It is not management. We shouldn't be doing management work. We have professional CEOs that we've hired. We feel that the board members should be as professional as the CEO.
Why shouldn't they be as trained and have as much expertise about their job that the CEO has about hs or her job and but to do that job and not someone else's right that there's another training element that high level leaders just need to be trained that this, you are not operating the organization.
We are governing the organization. And that's a big difference. You're taking your leadership. Your directive often becomes a trustee, which is a different role.
[00:28:03] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned the CLA for people who might be members. There are people that might be Christian organizations. What about your standard, other kind of nonprofit? Where might they get this kind of training? Are there seminars or Policy Governance training that one could attend or sign up for?
[00:28:23] Carl LaBarbera: Absolutely. I belong to the Govern for Impact Association. They have an annual conference, and they have sessions throughout the year as well. And it's been a great place for me to really learn the process.
It's a complex process and it should be. They have classes, they have seminars, they have this conference once a year. There is training, future board members and chairmen, chair, chairwomen, chairpersons to do this work. And the interesting thing, this organization, started originally with the Carvers and those who are Carver-trained and but now has become this international organization, literally.
And actually has been participating in in Europe to develop ISO standards. I was in the aerospace industry, everything we did, especially for government and military work had to be done to international standards or Boeing standards or Lockheed's or McDonnell Douglas standards.
So now Policy Governance has been embedded in an ISO standard for governance, what we're hoping to see is that will trickle down and that will become expected of boards to adhere to a set of, international best standards. Policy Governance will be included, and will be a framework for that.
[00:29:49] Tommy Thomas: What advice are you giving somebody who comes to you and said they've been approached by an organization to serve on their board? What questions are you telling them to ask?
[00:30:00] Carl LaBarbera: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I guess I would warn them or ask them. They should know everything about that organization and how it operates that they can.
And one of those things would be to see if there is Policy Governance in place. Just obviously, if you want to read the bylaws, to read those governing documents that will affect their role because the worst thing that can happen is someone get on a board and have to spend so much time and tedium and making decisions that are management decisions.
When I first began serving with our church, there was an old process developed over many years where you had elders who each one represented an area of ministry in the church, and then they would come together as an elder board as a governing board. And then each 1 would be reporting out from their area of ministry which could be a dozen different ministries. And so, you have 20 people on a board and you are spending hours and hours listening and thinking about things that you really shouldn't be thinking about. That is not your job. And so, I definitely would not want to be a part of that board. And I would advise others not to be a part of that board.
If the organization is not clear about that. The board's role in their job. I wouldn't advise being a part of that board.
[00:31:34] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
Tommy Thomas: If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Christian Leadership Alliance
Govern for Impact
Robert K. Greenleaf Center for Servant Leadership
Ruth Haley Barton
World Impact
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] Bob Lonac: And the authenticity part — I believe everybody wants to run into people that have that freedom. When you don't have anything to hide — I think that's what authenticity is. It's you are you. And being you, when you start discovering it and relaxing, it is a lot easier than always thinking, what do you think?
+++++++++++++
[00:00:29] Tommy Thomas: My guest today is Bob Lonac. For people that have been regular listeners, you will remember Bob was the guest on our first episode, and I was so grateful that Bob would agree to be a guest on a podcast that never had occurred yet.
And so, thank you, Bob. We're 126 episodes in now, so we've got more listeners and I trust I've gotten a little bit better in my interviewing skills. Bob had a successful career. 30+ years with Young Life. And then he was on the ground level with the International Justice Mission and finished his career with Crista Ministries in the greater Seattle area.
[00:01:09] Tommy Thomas: So, Bob, welcome again to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:13] Bob Lonac: Great to be here, Tommy. So, what you're doing, man. Thanks for all you've done for me.
[00:01:19] Tommy Thomas: I read your newsletter this week. Maybe go back and just refresh our listeners. You retired from Crista, and you started consulting and this newsletter is a way for you to share what you're thinking about.
[00:01:36] Bob Lonac: Yeah, newsletters may be an old word right now in today's world, but I always read newsletters on different things, finance whatever. And I thought, I am the kind of guy that's always thinking about stuff. And I think one of the things I do that over time people have told me is like put ideas into a way to communicate and help people grow, including myself.
Because I'm always thinking about how can I be better and what can I do? So, I just threw out the idea of hey, you want to sign up? So, if you do want to sign up for what I do have, I've got several hundred subscribers. It's free. So you just go to boblonac.com and you can sign up there.
[00:02:20] Tommy Thomas: I read the one this week and it had to do with giftedness and stewardship of your gifts, giftedness and honoring God with the way he created us and somehow that just that resonated with me, so I immediately got on the phone and called Bob and I said, let's do a podcast. Let's discuss this.
Bob, I remember back from our first conversation. You know, you mentioned, probably midway in your career with Young Life, or maybe late there, that you read the book, What Color is Your Parachute? by Dick Bowles. And was that your first introduction into giftedness or that kind of things?
[00:02:55] Bob Lonac: Probably, I think in most ministries and a lot of businesses there are like tests you take. Who is this person?
And what should you really do? And the parachute one was one of the first that I did read. And a guy gave it to me that was helping me through a transition.
[00:03:18] Bob Lonac: And I just got interested in that good question. Who am I? And it's really, I think a central question to those of us who want to be followers of Christ and, Jesus said, I've come, you might have life more abundantly and what does that mean? What is abundance? Does that mean getting rich? I don't think so, but what is it and how do you understand it and how can you have more of it?
[00:03:49] Tommy Thomas: Years ago, probably 10-12 years ago now, Max Lucado, the pastor down in San Antonio was going through a, maybe struggle. That's probably not too strong of a word on figuring out what his best giftedness was.
He was trying to be a pastor of a mega church, but his passion was really writing and speaking. And so, he came to our organization, and we took him through the assessment SIMAÓ and he reorganized his whole church staff. He got an Executive Pastor to run the thing and freed him up to do what he does best, and that's to speak and to write. So, I think there is an element of stewardship there, of honoring God.
[00:04:30] Bob Lonac: No doubt about it. My mentor in life, theologically, was Earl Palmer, who used to speak a lot of Young Life things. Great speaker, one of the best, and just a wonderful person.
And he took me through a class on the Book of Romans with a small group. And he said this is the central understanding of the Christian faith is, what's the gospel, chapter 1 through 8, what happened to Israel, 9 through 11. And then starting with chapter 12, therefore, present your bodies as a living sacrifice to God.
[00:05:05] Bob Lonac: And in chapter 12, the Apostle Paul talks about what are you supposed to do? Who are you supposed to be? And he says, the first three verses, are present your body as a living sacrifice. But the third one says, don't think more highly of yourself than you ought to. And don't think less of yourself than you ought to.
Socrates started the whole thing way back in 400 BC, right? Know Thyself. And a lot of times people ask me, I'll say something on a subject or something that I'm talking about, and they say, how'd you know that? What'd you do? How'd you do that? I'd go, I don't know. I just did it. It just came out of me.
[00:05:52] Bob Lonac: I think that's what happens when you're operating on your gifts and who you are. It's not hard.
[00:05:59] Tommy Thomas: From your experience, and you've supervised countless people, what keeps people from going there?
[00:06:06] Bob Lonac: It's exactly the same thing in chapter 12. The beginning of chapter 12 is “don't let the world squeeze you into its own mold, but let Christ renew you from within”.
And boy, in today's world, it's so full of insecurities from people looking around and wanting to be. I don't even understand all the words out there. I got ghosted. I got whatever. And how can I be, how can I be popular and all that kind of stuff. And if you're not in your sweet spot being you.
And I do think the Bible talks about this a lot then you're trying to fake it.
[00:06:53] Tommy Thomas: You probably know Ross Hoskins with One Hope. Ross says surround yourself with people who know you better than you know yourself, and they will tell you the truth out of love. That's how we grow. Sounds like you've got a little bit of that going on in your mindset here.
[00:07:10] Bob Lonac: I think I got a lot of that going on. I have been blessed with unbelievable jobs that I, God brought me here, but whatever. And people ask me how did that happen? As a COO at International Justice Mission, I was the president, CEO of Crista, a big organization. How'd you do it?
I think the one thing I'm good at is choosing other people who know stuff more than I do.
[00:07:36] Bob Lonac: So, leadership is not about, look at me, how good I am, I can do this, let me help you do it. Leadership is about making other people successful. And that's the biblical idea. Oh, think about Jesus in the long haul too. Like, why did he die for us? Make us like the kind of people we were created to be.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:08:02] Tommy Thomas: At what point at Young Life, did you get comfortable in your leadership skin? Did you acknowledge that this is how God put me together? This is what he wants me to do. And that's who I'm going to be.
[00:08:16] Bob Lonac: I want to say that I'm still in that process. I don't think we get to this deal where oh, okay. Now I got it. I do understand a lot more about myself. And I do want to very much be who God wants me to be and do what God wants me to do, but it's a lifelong process. We all are broken people. We all live in a world of sin, and it's a lifelong process that is chiseled away.
I think the scripture says God is chiseling on me all the time to become the person he wants me to be.
[00:08:58] Tommy Thomas: Here's a couple of quotes about authenticity. I’d like your response. There's great power in authenticity. Arthur Wiles said, Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken. As St. Catherine of Siena put it, Be who God meant you to be and you'll set the world on fire.
[00:09:17] Bob Lonac: In that newsletter, I said that Irenaeus in the year 300 said “the glory of God is man fully alive”. And, when you're being you and you are in connection with God, Christ, that doesn't mean things will go great. I'm facing some incredible personal challenges in my life right now.
[00:09:39] Bob Lonac: I didn't get older and get better and everything got more wonderful all the time. It's up and down all the time. If it's not happening to you, the chiseling, it'll happen to you tomorrow. So, it's not easy. And the authenticity part is what everybody, I believe everybody wants to run into people that have that freedom.
When you don't have anything to hide, I think that's what authenticity is. It's you are you. And being you actually, when you start discovering it and relaxing, it is a lot easier than always thinking, what do you think? Here's a classic one. One of my grandsons, he's in the eighth grade, he's out helping me work in the yard. And he comes over to me and grandma, I have a great relationship with my kids and great kids. He says, grandpa, I have a question for you. What is it? Hey, I can hardly wait till I get old like you. Okay. This guy can hardly wait till I get old. I said, why? He said, then I can say no to people.
[00:10:59] Bob Lonac: And I go, oh, why do you think you can say no to people, grandpa. Yeah, I tried to do it nicely. Yeah, you shouldn't, but you should be able to say no to people too. Oh, I don't know. I got this opportunity to do this. I got this opportunity. These people want me to do this. You gotta be with this crowd.
And he's really an intelligent kid doing great at school, but he’s like the world around him is trying to make him into something that he doesn't want to be. And that's, that was such an interesting little real-life story about that.
[00:11:38] Tommy Thomas: In your newsletter you cited four ways to help people discover and affirm their identity. And I'm sure you probably use this in your consulting, and you probably used it when you had a staff, but can you go into that a little bit and let's unpack those a little bit.
[00:11:55] Bob Lonac: You want to take them one by one for me?
[00:11:58] Tommy Thomas: You started with affirming your identity.
[00:12:01] Bob Lonac: Yeah, that’s you know, and there's a lot of ways to do that. You have the Enneagram; you have all kinds of tests and other things which are really helpful. I think really helpful. And I've done a lot of those things. So, I think our identity has a lot to do with what kind of person you are, but your identity also must center on who you are in Christ.
What does Christ say about you and that freedom that comes from unconditional love in your relationship with him is.
[00:12:41] Tommy Thomas: Your second point, you said what lights your fire? The power of story.
[00:12:46] Bob Lonac: Yeah. What lights my fire is getting into relationships and talking to people one on one.
I was picking my wife up from getting her hair styled. Two hours, right? So I talked to her hairstylist. Start talking to her who's starting a new hairstyle business where she's going to be the owner and I don't know, she's an easy person to talk to and I thought she's gonna say goodbye, I got another deal. We talked for about a half hour sitting there, the two of us and my wife and I walked away from that, and it was totally fun. I was talking to her about stuff. I knew in my consulting business thing. Oh, yeah. Oh, gee, never thought about that. Thank you. And they asked me questions and I thought that's me.
[00:13:39] Bob Lonac: That's what I love to do. And in fact, that's where my whole life has gone right now. I do one on one conversations with people, and I don't mean that all in my consulting deal. That's really important. I love doing that, but my neighbors, my people I run into, it's just who I am and what I do. And when I do that, it's totally fun.
[00:14:10] Tommy Thomas: When you know what lights your fire and you do it more often than not, I think that's part of this element of stewardship of who God puts you together to be.
[00:14:19] Bob Lonac: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:14:21] Bob Lonac: I don't think I don't buy that he gave you the deal of, hey, I'm going to send you to be a missionary and it's going to be miserable, but you're serving me.
[00:14:33] Tommy Thomas: Your third point was exploring your strengths.
[00:14:37] Bob Lonac: Yeah, I had one as a leader. I had one very simple thing, do what you do well and find other people that do what you don't. It's so hard to shore up my weaknesses. And I think that's my experience with other people and it's miserable to try to do it, at least for me, whereas you're working to your strengths. That's the game.
[00:14:57] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. Your fourth point, find people who really know you and love you and invite them into the process.
[00:15:07] Bob Lonac: Speak the truth in love. I think this is, especially if you're a leader, I have a little small group of business owners who are Christians.
It's really hard to get people, especially if you're the CEO or you own a small business, to tell you the truth. And it's hard to get anybody to tell you the truth or even tell you what they think, which may not be the truth.
[00:15:35] Bob Lonac: But here's another point, Tommy, that I could talk all day about. I don't think mature Christians should be defensive about anything. Defensiveness is not a spiritual virtue because if you find your self-worth in your relationship with Christ and in whom he made you. You're going to be a hard guy to offend.
[00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: What can you think back to when you got comfortable with that? When you realize that, yeah, I don't have to fight back.
[00:16:14] Bob Lonac: Yeah, I think it's been a lifelong process. It still is. And one of my, I don't know if it's a gift or some things are like this.
I don't know if they're a gift or a pain because I like to talk. And so, for me, like shutting up is a, what I'd say is a self-control virtue. Christ talks about, you don't have to say that, Bob, you're right. You know what you're saying, but you don't have to say that, shut up.
[00:16:46] Bob Lonac: Now right there is a battle that I'll probably take to the grave, I think it's always an interchange, but it's centered and matured in, I know it is God's work in us. It's not performing. It's hard to do it under your own strength. So, to me, it's relinquishing everything to Jesus. Nevertheless, Lord, not my will be done, but Yours.
[00:17:12] Tommy Thomas: And your last point in that section of the newsletter was to keep discovering who you are in Jesus and be you.
[00:17:21] Bob Lonac: There's a point when, and I think it could be fairly early life when you think you discover what your talents are and what your spiritual gifts are. And I think those are two different things. Natural talents, I can't run fast. I was a fast catcher in baseball.
I was stuck with that. I didn't have much to do. So, whatever your natural gifts are, you got them and the spiritual ones you learn and grow as you explain, find them and then learning how to connect those two ideas with the Word of God. And this is easier, I retired four years ago, so now my consulting business, I get to control how much I work.
[00:18:03] Bob Lonac: And I'm just fascinated by the Bible. I've been teaching the Bible all my life, but I'm more fascinated than ever at what, what happens here, and what, did that really say that? And what does that mean? So that is, I would say my wonder and joy experience is, and then that's sometimes what I talk to other people.
And a lot of times leadership is asking questions. People think leadership has to do with giving answers and questions, going, I, that's what I do. A little small group thing. I'd say, hey, I read this the other day. You guys, what do you think of this? What do you think that means? We talked about that idea of the abundant life two weeks ago in our group. What does that mean to you? Man, that thing, that's all I asked. The rest of them went at it forever.
+++++++++++++
[00:18:53] Tommy Thomas: Interesting that I guess the private sector and maybe the secular organizations they've picked up on the strengths thing. I was reading an article in the Harvard Business Review.
It says a lot of professional development programs focus on the negative, what you're doing badly and need to improve. But if you focus on the strength it provides a powerful way to grow. And then, the people at Case Western David Cooperrider and his Appreciative Inquiry expounds on what's working well and what's the potential there.
[00:19:26] Tommy Thomas: I guess that's not to say you don't work on improving things, but you probably make a lot more headway if you start with what's going right.
[00:19:34] Bob Lonac: Yeah, I certainly believe that, but I also think that people think there's a big difference between a nonprofit or a Christian organization and a for profit organization.
And I don't think there's one bit of difference. I think leadership is leadership. Leadership is explained in the Bible. The Bible is the truth of God. And when you try to figure it out yourself, you’re probably going to go down a rat hole once in a while and try to simply understand what God's Word is and become that and count on the Lord's involvement in your life and spend your time thinking about those kinds of things.
[00:20:24] Bob Lonac: What are you learning? Are you curious about your own relationship with God? I take guys on retreats once in a while, and the one of the questions we send them out is hey, how do you hear God? How do you hear God's word? How do you hear God's voice? I've had numerous people say, I've never heard God's voice.
And I'm going, I'm not sure I've ever heard God's voice that if you talk out loud to me, no, I think there's a lot of ways to analyze how you can hear and listen to God and learn how to do that. And I'm talking to another grandson about the same thing. He thinks he wants to go into being a missionary overseas.
[00:21:10] Bob Lonac: He's only a junior in high school. And I'm like let's talk about that. What do you want to do? You got to listen to God. And how does that happen? And watch for open doors, walk through the open doors, do this, do that. So it's again, this whole thing, I think Christians have wanted to put everything into a nice neat package and tell you what you shouldn't do.
You shouldn't smoke, shouldn't drink, shouldn't do this. That was my era. And then here's what you should do. Here's this and here's what you don’t do.. It's never been like that. Every time I tried that kind of approach it didn't work. Especially if I faced my own feelings and thoughts and I love this idea that we can't run away from sins. We must run towards something better. We have to be captured by something we really want. Somebody told me recently, you are going to get what you want. Everybody gets what they want. Now you've got to start thinking about that one, right? The question is, what do you really want? And if you look at the average American out there, what they really want is a good job, great kid.
[00:22:40] Bob Lonac: You could put a lot of nice things, put a lot of bad things, but the idea of a living, vital relationship with Christ. is not what they really want. They would like it, but the things you really want, you try and make happen.
[00:23:02] Tommy Thomas: Let me ask you a closing question. You've got a lot of time to think now that you're retired. And as you say, you control your work schedule. What do you understand about yourself or life now that you probably didn't understand when you walked out of Crista?
[00:23:20] Bob Lonac: Oh gosh, that's a good question. There's no doubt about it. Like a lot of people, I've been blessed with good health. I'm a high energy person. I like doing stuff. And the doing stuff is how I got my jobs, right? And I liked doing it. Nobody had to tell me to go to work.
I liked going to work. I had a great job. I thought, and I never ended for enthusiasm for the day. Be still and know that I am God. So, I am now learning another great calling in life. And it's, and see, I don't think that it's a part of a natural progression. Maybe, I don't know. For me, it's cultivating an interior sense of peace in the ability to love others unconditionally.
[00:24:25] Bob Lonac: Love others unconditionally. I was talking to a Catholic buddy. He works in my yard. And I love talking to the guys that work in my yard. And I said, oh man, the drivers around here were crazy. I almost got in an accident. They're crazy. And he said to me, Bob, you know what the priest told me? No matter what happens to you, you say, God bless them, help me.
I'm like, holy mackerel. See, that's the kind of person I want to be. I want to be that kind of person. And the only way I become that person is in my own knowledge because I'm in a personal position right now of having to live most all my day in a completely loving, serving, caring relationship with my family and I don't get much time for me now. Where do I get the energy for that? It's easy to be the CEO. Everybody goes oh, Mr. Lonac - Oh, you're the president of blah blah blah blah blah. If you feed off that stuff, you're in trouble. I get to love people and I get to try and learn and experience not looking for anything from it.
The founder of Fuller Seminary came to share with me, not the founder, but what the teacher shared with me a Buddhist saying, Nishkama Karma, okay? And God's truth is everywhere, right? Here's the saying, do your duty to God without regard to the fruit of your labor.
You don't do things for God for what you can get out of it. How else can you explain the life of Jesus? Everybody says, take care of yourself. And Jesus said, let this cup pass for me, but nevertheless, Lord, not my will be done. Your will be done. That is what's passionate in your heart is for God's will to be done through you. No matter what, that's how we have martyrs.
[00:27:09] Tommy Thomas: That's how we have people that really make a difference for the world for Christ. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Bob Lonac. Bob is someone that I never tire of talking with. Every time I read his writing or talk with him. I come away with a nugget that I can use in life. In the show notes, I will leave Bob's contact data as well as links to his newsletter. Additionally, I will put the link to the pilot episode of this podcast where Bob was my guest.
[00:27:39] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
[00:28:03] Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
[00:28:27] Tommy Thomas: If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Bob Lonac’s Website
Email Bob Lonac: blonac81@gmail.com
Pilot Episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Bob Lonac
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] Alberto Huerta: If I were to get a do over in life, I would have more consistently put family above my professional life. I would say a disproportionate commitment to my professional growth ended up not being the best choice when it came to prioritizing family.
I think on a day-to-day basis, we can also suffer from long days or lots of travel and my do over would really center around being able to still strive for excellence, strive for impact, but to more consistently be able to do that both in my marriage and with my kids and in my community, as well as professionally.
++++++++++++++
[00:00:42] Alberto Huerta: Our guest today is Alberto Huerta. Alberto has brought his expertise in brand strategy and management, marketing and fundraising strategy, product development and innovation, and donor insights and analytics to such organizations as Visa, Kraft, Procter Gamble, Compassion International, and World Vision.
[00:01:03] Tommy Thomas: He's skilled in turnaround, startups, and global enterprise operations. Alberto, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:11] Alberto Huerta: Thank you so much, Tommy. It's a pleasure to be with you today.
[00:01:14] Tommy Thomas: Before we go too deep into your professional experience, I always like to explore someone's childhood. So take me back to your childhood. What do you remember as being formative?
[00:01:28] Alberto Huerta: Certainly, the people in my life. Tommy, I had a mom who was always there for me. Unconditional love for sure. My dad modeled honesty and hard work and respect for others. An amazing brother who modeled kindness and generosity.
And I have to highlight my grandma who modeled Jesus for me. And it took me a while, but she certainly planted some seeds that sprouted later in my faith walk. Besides just the great people in my life, English was always a part of my life growing up in Mexico. My mom loved the U.S. She traveled to the U.S. when she was really young.
[00:02:04] Alberto Huerta: And instilled that in our family. I developed a taste for other cultures and languages living outside of the U.S. and in Europe and then back to Mexico where I chose to study industrial engineering. I never really practiced it, but it ended up being a really great school and a really great skill set for what I ended up doing.
[00:02:26] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like in Mexico?
[00:02:29] Alberto Huerta: High school in Mexico … I was in Colorado Springs for a couple of years with my uncles. They were kind enough to receive me and my brother for 9th and 10th grade.
So when I got back to Mexico, it'd been about seven years. I'd been away in Europe with my mom. And then, as I said, with my uncles in Colorado, and so getting back to Mexico to finish high school was, a really different experience. It was almost a reverse cultural shock getting back and getting acquainted with Mexico again.
I had the fortune of being in an upper middle class family where I had access to really great schooling, which led to the opportunity to go to the Monterey Institute of Technology to be able to study there. So really grateful for the opportunities my parents opened.
[00:03:17] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to know about you?
[00:03:24] Alberto Huerta: Oh boy! That I have only spent 15 years of my life in Mexico. I'm 52 this year which means that I've been around a lot of places, both in Europe and Canada, where my two daughters were born and then a variety of different places in the U.S. where different opportunities both with P&G and Kraft and Visa.
So, I would say the amount of exposure to different cultures and different cities. I just love languages. I love different cultures. I've really gravitated to global roles over the years because I really appreciate and enjoy the company of people from other countries and the friendships that I've been able to develop. So that's a big part of what has shaped me. And I credit my mom for that.
[00:04:05] Tommy Thomas: So, you spent the first 15 years of your career with P&G. What went into your decision to go with P&G?
[00:04:12] Alberto Huerta: The friend that introduced me to Brenda, my wife of 27 years, was the same friend who said to me one day, last semester of industrial engineering school, he said Procter & Gamble is on campus. It's really hard to get in. We ought to go try. And so, we did and that was my introduction P&G and brand management.
This whole idea of, at a very early stage in your career, being given a business to run and managing it from a brand and marketing viewpoint. So, the process itself, Tommy, was extraordinary and had multiple steps in it. The highlight for me was a three-day weekend in a hotel where they cooped us up, all 40 candidates of us, and just put us through the ringer.
[00:05:02] Alberto Huerta: Late nights being evaluated on our leadership skills. I made it somehow and was able to enter the P&G family. I am so grateful for my years there. The leadership that they teach. And enable you to practice the mastery, the collaboration across various functions and up and down the management chain. I am really grateful for my time with P&G, which actually started in Mexico, but then continued in the Czech Republic. That in and of itself is a long story. And then Canada, and then all roads lead to Cincinnati when you're at P&G. And so, I did my last year's working on fabric care, or more simply said, detergents.
[00:05:46] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back to your first management job when you actually had somebody reporting to you, what do you remember about that?
[00:05:55] Alberto Huerta: I'm still in touch with the three, four people that were with me in my first assignment. That was brand manager for Folgers up in Canada. And it was just such an honor to be able to recognize that I had the opportunity, even if just for a year or two or three an opportunity to shape the career of people with such talents and energy and deeply complex personal lives. So, for me to look for that opportunity to develop and play a valuable role in people's development has always been super, super motivating for me.
[00:06:31] Tommy Thomas: So, let's fast forward to today and if I had the privilege to come out to Compassion or World Vision and you let me talk to your direct reports, what would they say would be the most challenging aspect of working with Alberto? And then what would they say would be the most rewarding part of working for you?
[00:06:49] Alberto Huerta: The most challenging part, I would say my favorite movie is Rocky. And aside from my lack of true film knowledge, you could say, Rocky is relentless, and he doesn't give up easily.
And sometimes that can be tiring because there's always a higher bar. There's always the next goal. Taking no for an answer but working together to find ways to get around it. I think in a sense, I think that can be tiring. And I am very driven.
[00:07:21] Alberto Huerta: I am very high energy. So, one of the things that I've learned is to think about the way I was taught. What gear do you enter a conversation with? If you're always in 4th gear, 5th gear, 6th gear that can be unnecessary sometimes and that generally is my default. So, what does it look like to enter a conversation in first gear or second gear?
And really being able to connect and engage in a variety of ways based on the situation and the person.
[00:07:50] Alberto Huerta: Now about what might be exciting or fun for people to work with me, it's always the strength and the other side is the opportunity, isn't it? And for me it's exciting to see how people respond to the energy I can bring towards what is possible.
What are we building over time? What are we building over time together? That is meaningful. So, you can imagine that coming into Christian nonprofits has been particularly motivating because it takes it from something that can be very exciting and what you're doing with a package good or in financial services, but to be able to have that same kind of energy and transformational dream for us to work towards and against, I think is something that is motivating.
[00:08:33] Alberto Huerta: Based on the feedback that I receive in helping people find their particular way of contributing towards the greater transformation that we're aiming for as a team. And so, I think that's probably what services to the top. When I think about the feedback I've received over the years.
++++++++++++++++
[00:08:51] Tommy Thomas: Tell me a little bit about the mentors in your life. Who has been the most influential mentor?
[00:08:57] Alberto Huerta: I'll give you a person as well, a regular human being, but I do value the teaching of the Bible around praying continuously and being able to be sensitive to the Spirit is something that I strive for every day in this very conversation, what am I, why am I saying, what is helpful, what is not helpful, what is imbued with the direction and love of Jesus. He's my moment-to-moment mentor. And I love him for that.
I would say the second would be my brother. He knows me through and through, the highs and the lows. And what I appreciate about him the most is his listening and his ability to demonstrate unconditional love to tell me what I need to hear, whether it's easy to hear or not. And so, I appreciate him for that. I think he would be my longest-term mentor, I would say.
[00:09:46] Tommy Thomas: In 2015, you left what was probably a financially lucrative job with Visa to go to work with Compassion. Tell us about that move.
[00:09:58] Alberto Huerta: It's a move that really had its beginnings in 2010, five years earlier.
I realized in my faith walk, for me, it was not going to make sense to think about retiring in a for profit job. And so, I began conversations with Christian nonprofits that would value mass marketing skills, mass brand building skills. And that led me to start a conversation with organizations like World Vision, like Compassion and it was not an easy decision, but it was one that I felt really great about the point in time where this decision became most pressing was when I was working at Visa, and at the same time, my wife and I were co pastoring a small Hispanic congregation and I sensed a need a calling to integrate more of my lifestyle and be able to work for an organization that was in and of itself dedicated to advancing the purposes of Jesus.
And so ultimately that's what made that decision, although a big one, a very natural and easy one for me when the day came.
[00:11:13] Tommy Thomas: What's the most significant difference you've observed between the private sector and the nonprofit sector?
[00:11:24] Alberto Huerta: Oh, there's a lot of similarities, but there's certainly some differences. Probably at the heart of it, when I think about differences, I truly value the focus on a mission that is so clear and so compelling and really goes above any financial metrics.
Now, I know that's also true of some for-profit organizations. In fact, probably some of the ones that are most profitable and most successful over time are ones that do see beyond just the financial. But that is obviously much more common, I would say, and much more natural for a nonprofit to be able to value their mission to value the impact that they're making, and it truly changes how one contributes to it because it's not enough to be a marketer.
[00:12:12] Alberto Huerta: It's not enough to be a fundraiser. It's about truly understanding the impact that is being made. How is that impact made? What are the actions that drive that impact? How effective are we making that impact? I think that is so crucial in being a successful and an effective marketer within a nonprofit.
Being able to build a very strong bond and tight relationship with the programmatic leaders. So that would be one that I would highlight, Tommy, and that leads to the importance of end-to-end solutioning with programs which I've enjoyed a whole lot. It's one thing to solve for a supporter or a donor.
[00:12:52] Alberto Huerta: It's another in the much more complex model that the nonprofits have where there's more stakeholders in play to be able to solve for the whole and to be able to really value and understand the needs, not only of the end beneficiaries in the case of Compassion and World Vision would be the children in the communities around them, but also the various stakeholders, both near and far from the beneficiaries. And I found that particularly interesting and motivating.
[00:13:22] Tommy Thomas: What was your greatest adjustment in coming from Visa to Compassion?
[00:13:30] Alberto Huerta: Oh boy! A common understanding is that for a believer's first move into a Christian nonprofit, whether you like it or not you just imagine that you're stepping into heaven, right? A little piece of heaven. It's all believers. We're all following the same God. We're all following the same biblical principles. It must be heaven there.
You might not say that overtly, but you expect it, and you have a very high bar and imagination and then slowly, but surely you realize, hey, there's people like me in this organization. So, there's a bit of a high. As you first step into an organization like this, and then there's a realization that we're all a work in progress as individuals, as couples, as families, and as organizations as churches.
So that's definitely one of the key important realizations walking into Compassion. More broadly I would say it is true both of Compassion and World Vision that these are longstanding, mature organizations working within mature sectors, certainly from a product or fundraising perspective.
[00:14:39] Alberto Huerta: And what I particularly relish was, the intrapreneurship that that I was able to push into the opportunity to identify ways that the organization could change and grow and being able to help the organization embrace change from within, which, in my view, is particularly meaningful because it then leverages the strengths of the organization and it's able to operate and grow in a way that is relevant. And it continues to stay fresh and both for the supporters as well as for the beneficiaries.
[00:15:13] Tommy Thomas: In terms of a leadership role, how do you assess what's right for you?
[00:15:22] Alberto Huerta: And the way I'm understanding your question, Tommy, is how do I assess what's right as I think about leadership roles that I'm evaluating for myself? Is that the essence of your question?
[00:15:31] Tommy Thomas: What makes a good fit for Alberto?
I want to work for an inspirational leader – a true visionary.
[00:15:35] Alberto Huerta: I have several criteria. There's one that I added. Or I would say I moved up the list in recent weeks is working for an inspirational leader, a true visionary.
[00:15:49] Alberto Huerta: I think that's something that's particularly motivating for me right now. I feel if the energy and the big idea is coming from the very top that can really spell tremendous progress and success and accomplishment. So that's one that's really important for me.
[00:16:05] Alberto Huerta: The other one I would say it's certainly culture. A culture of understanding what the mission is and being able to be focused on accomplishing the mission. Being able to for there to be a sense within the organization that we can pour ourselves into the mission and the organization will take care of us as individuals.
[00:16:26] Alberto Huerta: That's a little bit idealistic potentially, but I saw that even at P&G and certainly at Compassionate and World Vision. So, I value culture and that selflessness to pour oneself into the mission as another key criteria. And if I were to pick a third one, I would say learning a learning organization, one that does not rest on their laurels.
[00:16:48] Alberto Huerta: One that is continuously finding ways to experiment. It can be so tempting to be hand to mouth, like in the performance engine, just producing, and it can suck the life out of experimentation and innovation and just even being able to bring one's full skillset into the job.
I want to work for a learning organization - one that doesn’t sit on its laurels.
[00:17:08] Alberto Huerta: So that'll be a third one, but it's great question, Tommy. And I think it’s a learning journey, isn't it? What is the best fit for us? Depending on the season as well.
+++++++++++++++
[00:17:17] Tommy Thomas: At what point in your career did you get comfortable in your leadership skin? Did you accept the fact that God had given you certain leadership abilities and it was your responsibility to steward those?
[00:17:34] Alberto Huerta: Wow, that's a great question. I gravitated to leadership because I'm driven. I tend to be more of a futurist. So I see where we might be headed. I like to see the big picture and integrate the various pieces as far as getting comfortable with it. I think that came fairly naturally. I think over time.
And it doesn't happen immediately, does it? Just realizing that the biggest job of a leader is, in fact, developing leaders. And it wasn't until the jobs started to get large enough that I just had no choice. As an example, my last job at Compassion comes to mind where I had anywhere between eight and 10 direct reports leading particular marketing disciplines.
[00:18:21] Alberto Huerta: It became so natural for me to be able to really focus on developing leaders because there was no way that I could be investing myself into that many different disciplines but rather really investing myself in my team, investing myself in my leaders and being able to carve a path for the whole.
So, I would say that the various roles invite new levels of leadership for each of us. And that's certainly been an exciting part of the journey for me.
[00:18:50] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to change and innovation for a minute. I read a recent Harvard Business Review Survey that said 37 percent of companies had energy for change but lacked focus. 20 percent were skeptical of change because of past failures. 24 percent were stuck because of a lack of energy and direction, and 19 percent were struggling to change.
If anything is certain, it is that change is certain. The world we're planning for today will not exist in this form tomorrow. (Phillip Crosby)
[00:19:15] Tommy Thomas: Phillip Crosby said, if anything is certain, it is that change is certain. The world we're planning for today will not exist in this form tomorrow. Talk a little bit about how you've led organizations through change and what that's looked like.
Organizational change is easy when there is no choice – not so much so when the need for change is not obvious.
[00:19:34] Alberto Huerta: When change is unavoidable it's so much easier, isn't it? I remember working on the P&G laundry portfolio. There was an economic crisis at the time. There were 2 or 3 competitors, both on the private label side, as well as value detergents that were eating our lunch in certain channels.
And so, change was inevitable at that point. And so, it became really clear. The energy was there. The expectation was there. We created awesome solutions. It was still really hard to create the right solution to fit the bill. But the need for change, I think, was felt. And that led to P&G really embracing the full scope potential of Tide as a mega brand playing across various categories and subcategories, but also and mostly the importance of the detergent laundry portfolio for P&G and being able to develop the various brands to be able to compete effectively in the marketplace.
[00:20:35] Alberto Huerta: However, when change is not obvious I think it is that much more rewarding when we can make it happen, but also that much harder because our organization will resist change that doesn't feel eminently needed because it's working and it's profitable and the momentum is there.
[00:20:57] Alberto Huerta: And it can lead organizations in my experience to a sales and fundraising mindset that starts to put to the side where the product should be going, where the brand should be going, where the marketing strategy should be going and it can start to, to let a problem continue to fester and ultimately become a problem that that, as we know, has buried organizations.
So, I feel that being able to clarify the case for change and build really strong unity around that case for change. I'm a big proponent of Cotter's eight steps to really seeing change through. I think those are so wise and so true, particularly when change is not obvious or well accepted.
[00:21:49] Tommy Thomas: Last year, Bed Bath & Beyond filed for bankruptcy and later will be purchased by Overstock. One writer attributes their financial woes to their failure to innovate. Is there a lesson there for the nonprofit sector?
[00:22:05] Alberto Huerta: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There's certain mechanisms and approaches that work and we tend to get enamored by them.
And we all know the most visible examples of disruption of sectors and those are real and those are accelerating. And so, I think it's particularly important for organizations that are starting to get stale or starting to experience a certain comfort level to be clear on what is truly foundational of the organization and what is going to be a consistent truth that they can live into.
[00:22:45] Alberto Huerta: And what are things that do need to be revisited and sometimes broken and rebuilt? It reminds me of Jeff Bezos talking about Amazon and saying there are a few things that are not going to change, and we can bank on those people who are going to want more assortment. People are going to want to lower the price.
People are going to want to get it fast. Now, everything else can change, but let's anchor on those key pieces. I think particularly mature nonprofits that that have some strong foundational pieces that you should continue to push into should be very clear on what those are, and then start to innovate and differentiate and break down walls and barriers where they should be broken.
[00:23:27] Alberto Huerta: One of the common products across both Compassion and World Vision is the child sponsorship product. Such a beautiful product and so relevant to today. I think about subscription. So that is obviously a problem. We all have way too many subscriptions and we need apps to be able to manage our subscriptions.
And it's also a very relevant product because of the connection to a local team who's working locally, who's committed to that particular community. There are so many aspects of sponsorship that are so powerful. And yet it's been difficult for the sector to innovate at the rate that it could have.
[00:24:09] Alberto Huerta: It is encouraging though, to see organizations with both Compassion and World Vision, I would say really pushing into ways of bringing truth from supporters into the building and being able to work through those. World Vision's chosen sponsorship, I think, is a really great example of that one where there's a real empowerment of the child, the real listening to the supporter on the kinds of things that would be more motivating and make their connection to the child in, in a property context, more real and more meaningful to them.
It is not easy for organizations to innovate in such ways. It takes true commitment, and it can be very heavy lifting, but it's worth it.
+++++++++++++++
[00:24:55] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to something maybe a little bit lighter. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank, what are the questions you would have to have solid answers to before you would open your pocketbook?
[00:25:08] Alberto Huerta: That's an easy one because I've been thinking about that in this season and that is would you invest your own money into that nonprofit and why I found that it is so interesting to think about the big shift that we've seen over the decades and years where it used to be that one would give to an organization purely because of their beliefs, their values, their trust in the organization.
They think like me. They value what I value. I'll put my money in their pockets. That's not today's world. I think donors are very sophisticated, increasingly sophisticated. We are very visible about the organization. And so, it is so important that we, particularly in the marketing and fundraising departments, are completely soaked in all things program.
[00:25:58] Alberto Huerta: We need to not be the flashy, smart, cool marketers only, we really need to be the representatives of amazing work that's happening in the field with our beneficiaries. And that we're able to represent that we know why it's believable.
We know why it works. And one of the ways that I think is particularly powerful is we know what needs to get better even in our program. And that is what donors I believe are looking for these days is transparency.
To be able to know that it is not perfect. It is well built. It is yielding results. And it is improving just like we would expect for profit to be improving.
[00:26:44] Tommy Thomas: Let me get you to respond to two quotes from Steve Jobs.
You can have a great product, but if communication fails, it's like watching a stand-up comedian do a gig in a completely different language (Steve Jobs)
[00:26:59] Alberto Huerta: That is so true, isn't it? The picture that comes to mind is the front of the TV and the back of the TV for anybody to or, in a more modern way, would be our beloved iPhone, right? It's one thing to experience the iPhone. It is simple. You pinch your fingers, you drag your fingers, you click that's what the person cares about.
[00:27:21] Alberto Huerta: What we care about is both sides, right? The back of the iPhone and the insides of the iPhone and we fall in love with it. We love to delve into the complexities of it, but if we're not able to present it in a way that is relevant to who the user is be it in communication, be it in, from a UI perspective then we will fail.
[00:27:43] Alberto Huerta: And it's certainly something that Steve jobs modeled for all of us with his products.
[00:27:49] Tommy Thomas: His second quote.
It's a complicated and noisy world, and we're not going to get a chance to get people to remember much about us. No company is. So, we have to be really clear about what we want them to know about us. (Steve Jobs)
[00:28:09] Alberto Huerta: It's a powerful one, isn't it? And he went on to talk about values and that led to communication from Apple, such as the very famous think different campaign with Gandhi and Einstein and Charles Chaplin and all these geniuses who are crazy enough to think they could change the world.
[00:28:27] Alberto Huerta: And so, they were the ones who did. And so, I think he walked that really well. I think it is so important for organizations to know who they are and also to know who they're becoming for whom, right? Who they are becoming, how, what value they bring and how that really is in some ways the way to materialize their values, right?
[00:28:51] Alberto Huerta: It's the way to materialize their values. And I think organizations like Compassion and World Vision are ones that understand their essence very well, and they're able to bring it across in ways that truly connect. We see Jesus, for example.About a dozen times in the New Testament being moved with compassion, right?
[00:29:11] Alberto Huerta: He saw something and he was moved with compassion in such a way that he was going to bring such strength and love and really throw themselves at whatever that need was because their heart had been moved with compassion and I think that's such a beautiful essence of Compassion and why it's so easy for people to feel such a connection to it similar with World Vision.
[00:29:35] Alberto Huerta: We think about seeing the world differently and seeing our ability to reach beyond our own walls and see the world differently. The need around the world and being able to work as a whole for those that are in most need for those that are hardest to reach. So, I think being able to be clear on one's essence is really critical to be able to be successful in an environment that is so noisy, as you said.
[00:30:02] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to bring this thing to a close. I have two questions that I often ask at the end. And the first one would be, if you could get a do over in life, what would it be?
[00:30:15] Alberto Huerta: Oh boy, that's a big one.
If I were to get a do over in life, I would have more consistently put family above my professional life.
[00:30:17] Alberto Huerta: If I were to get a do over in life, I would have more consistently put family above my professional life. And the way that it would have played out, there's deeper, more day-to-day ways, but one very simple one is following the very best job to whatever country or city it happened to be placed in.
[00:30:39] Alberto Huerta: So that's one way that I would say a disproportionate commitment to my professional growth ended up not being the best choice when it came to prioritizing family. I think on a day-to-day basis, we can also suffer from long days or lots of travel and my do over would really center around being able to still strive for excellence, strive for impact, but to more consistently be able to do that both in my marriage and with my kids and in my community, as well as professionally.
[00:31:14] Alberto Huerta: God has been graceful. And 27 years later I'm so glad to have such a wonderful wife and family that I can enjoy every day and be able to take action on that learning as I look to the future.
[00:31:29] Tommy Thomas: If you could give a younger version of yourself a piece of advice, what would it be?
[00:31:39] Alberto Huerta: It's not about you. God says that we are to die to ourselves and be able to live for him. And I think that is really at the core of a lot of our issues, whether it's looking disproportionately for ourselves, whether it's making happiness and comfort the overarching search for our lives. And we all know, especially those that are past their twenties, Tommy, like you and I, that there are tough circumstances in life. And one can't control or make life the walk in the park that we would want it to be, or the peak after peak adventure that we want it to be.
[00:32:24] Alberto Huerta: And so being able to make it about God, about Him and about His glory and about how our lives can be a reflection of the love that He's shown us and the grace that He's shown us. That'll be my biggest piece of advice.
[00:32:40] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
[00:33:05] Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you’d like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
[00:33:28] Tommy Thomas: If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] Stewart Severino: The leader that sits at the helm is going to have to be really intentional about how they look for that specific talent and they need to structure their departments or their organizations in that manner, in order to really stretch those dollars.
[00:00:13] Stewart Severino: You have to be a strong financial steward nowadays. There's no reason not to be right with the talent that we have out there, so my suggestion to leadership is to stop building empires and start building communities.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:25] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Stewart Severino, the Head of Innovation for The Navigators.
[00:00:34] Tommy Thomas: As of recent, one of the podcasts I've added to my feed is Purpose and Profit Podcast hosted by Dave Raley and Carly Berner. Stewart was a recent guest of theirs and listening to that podcast convinced me that I wanted Stewart to share with our audience. So I want to give a big shout out to Dave and Carly for the work they're doing with Purpose and Profit Podcast.
[00:00:55] Tommy Thomas: So, Stewart, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:00:58] Stewart Severino: Hey Tommy, nice to be here. Thank you.
[00:01:00] Tommy Thomas: So, I have to confess that earlier in my career, maybe 20 years ago, 30 years ago, if you'd asked me about innovation and The Navigators, I'm not sure I would have put those two in the same sentence. But after knowing and working with Doug Nuenke, their most recent former President, it makes total sense now that The Navigators would have somebody at a senior level paying attention to innovation.
[00:01:26] Stewart Severino: That caught my attention too. That was not more than 18 months ago. So, we're in the same boat.
[00:01:32] Tommy Thomas: We're going to talk a lot about innovation in the nonprofit sector and maybe if it's appropriate, maybe you can share with us some of the exciting things that The Navigators are doing in this area.
But before we go there, I want to go back to your childhood and your upbringing, and maybe learn a little bit about, maybe how that got you to where you are today.
[00:01:53] Stewart Severino: Yeah, you know, that's an immigrant story. My mom came to the US in the early 70s and she worked in a factory and raised us kids alone. You don't know any different right, you grew up with friends who were in similar situations inner city in New Jersey, I grew up in Newark.
You know, high school was a good time. There was decent formation there because of, you know, some male coaches. That's always important. Even though you don't have a male figure at home, hopefully, you have some male influences in your life. So that helped to shape me early on as a male.
And then, moving out of high school, college began in 1994. I went to a Jesuit university, for a little bit, but dropped out because of the dot com boom in New York City. So that was probably the best decision I made at that time. You know, kids are talking about that today, right? Oh, do we really need college?
[00:02:46] Stewart Severino: We can just get a certification. And that's kind of what was going on back then. We had to make it up as we went along because we were building it as we were building strategies. So it was an exciting time. And then, I would return later on to academia and complete my degree, my master's at Dallas Theological Seminary.
[00:03:04] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like? Did you play athletics or, in the band or any of that, anything like that?
[00:03:10] Stewart Severino: Yeah. Wrestled, loved wrestling. The discipline of wrestling, the grit, that kind of physical and perseverance set the pace for what would be my adulthood.
[00:03:25] Tommy Thomas: When you started college in the beginning, were you on a technology track or you in general studies? What was that like studying at the Jesuit university?
[00:03:33] Stewart Severino: Yeah, that's a good question. I went in as a biology major. I always enjoyed biology and I thought, oh, maybe I'll get into med school or, I don't know, something along the healthcare track. But, yeah, that went away pretty quick.
[00:03:48] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned mentoring a little bit and male figures in your life. Who's been the most influential mentor to you so far?
[00:03:55] Stewart Severino: Oh boy, you know, that didn't come till much later, maybe till around the age of when I was going back to church. Not that I ever really went, met my wife and she introduced herself as a Christian to me, and I didn't really recognize that.
Growing up in the Northeast, you either know Catholic or you know Jew, and to hear Christian is a little different. So, going into this church, the senior pastor there really took attention to me and spent week after week with me even before I was a believer. And so I got to give that to him, you know, a really busy man having a relationship as a primary responsibility in his life, to his people. It just spoke volumes.
[00:04:38] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice he ever gave you?
[00:04:42] Stewart Severino: He says you're never going to know everything and be okay with that.
[00:04:48] Tommy Thomas: Good words. Good words. I have a hunch that a lot of people might be like me and not necessarily put innovation and nonprofit sector in the same sentence. Am I right about that? And if so, why?
[00:05:05] Stewart Severino: That's a good topic to bring up because I think leadership is being forced to bring it up. Now you can't escape innovation. You can't escape AI. I think the phrase innovation is so broad and it has so many different meanings that it needs some real form. It needs some real function, some real definition by leadership.
And yes it's not at the top of their list but it is being forced to the top of their list because they need to figure out how to do more with very little, especially in a nonprofit space, especially in donor-supported organizations.
[00:05:42] Tommy Thomas: I was talking to Matt Randerson. You may know him, over at Barna, and we're planning an upcoming podcast on generational influences of the nonprofit sector. So maybe go there for a minute. Have you noticed relative to innovation any differences with the generations in terms of maybe creativity?
[00:06:03] Stewart Severino: You know, you have to start looking at who am I hiring, right?
Typically, my generation, Gen X, or even older, we tend to build empires versus building community. We come in and we want to staff up, right? We want an assistant. We want project managers that you can't function like that anymore. I still see it happening. It really bothers me what we need to start looking for in our younger generation are those who have hybrid capabilities.
Are you a project manager? Do you have tech capabilities at a minimum? I think this younger generation will have that. And already does have that. I think the leader that sits at the helm is going to have to be really intentional about how they look for that specific talent and they need to structure their departments or their organizations in that manner, in order to really stretch those dollars.
[00:06:57] Stewart Severino: You have to be a strong financial steward nowadays. And there's no reason not to be right with the talent that we have out there. There's no reason we don't have to be, so my suggestion to leadership is to stop building empires and start building communities.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:07:13] Tommy Thomas: What about risk-taking from the different generations?
[00:07:17] Stewart Severino: I see more risk-taking in a younger generation. Mainly because they've been hearing a narrative of failing fast.
You know, and that comes with the lean startup methods and other innovative practices. So, there's more room for risk-taking with the younger generation. I think for me, for Gen X or even the boomers, you have your entrepreneurs. You have those risk-takers. I think they are few and far between.
But those of us that are in place of leadership, we're going to the risk tolerance in moving forward with something that could be seen as risky to the rest of the organization. So, it really depends. It depends on the initiative. It depends on the talent you're using. It depends on if you have a method.
[00:08:08] Stewart Severino: Do you have a process that is repeatable, that is predictable? You can take a risk, but we're not asking you to roll the die. We're asking you to come in, do something different, but do it within a framework. We're not here to just shoot from the hip or throw things on the wall to see if they stick.
[00:08:29] Tommy Thomas: On your LinkedIn profile, in addition to innovation and nonprofit impact, you have the words scaling and sustainability.
[00:08:37] Stewart Severino: Yeah, it's one thing to launch successful projects and pilots. It's another thing to get them to scale. And because now you're talking throughout the organization, you're talking about resources. And so, scaling is probably at the top of your list of success.
For example, Navigators. We have this age-old issue, not just Navigators, but all of Christianity. We have this age-old issue of scaling discipleship. You can't possibly disciple more than one to three people, have a relationship, you know, beyond that. And so scaling discipleship, in this example, has always been an issue.
[00:09:20] Stewart Severino: So how do we solve for that? Back in a day in the 40s, Billy Graham went to Dawson Trotman, who's the founder of the Navigators. And he said, Dawson, I need your help. We're bringing 5,000-6,000 people per month to faith, but there's no follow-up. They're just coming to the churches, professing their faith and then what? There's no follow-up, right? It's like you getting a subscription and then no follow-up subscription, right? There's no accountability there from the company side. On this side, it would be how do you touch so many people consistently? How do you develop relationships?
[00:09:51] Stewart Severino: And so scaling discipleship on that level is huge. And I'm so excited to be part of that.
[00:09:59] Tommy Thomas: Does that tie in with sustainability?
[00:10:03] Stewart Severino: So, the sustainability is how can you affect a business unit in a way that they continue to function the way they're supposed to, but also contribute to the whole, can I serve you?
How do I come to you in a department and say, hey, what are your needs? How can I serve you? And through that, we explore efficiencies, and optimization, so you can do your job better, more efficiently, and at a reduced cost while you're contributing back to the organization as a whole. That's sustainability.
[00:10:37] Stewart Severino: So, if I to go to a ministry and say, hey, how can I help you at the college level? Oh, well, I can't touch all of these students that are coming to me. I can only touch a small percentage of these folks. What do I do with the rest? Oh, let me help you with that. Right now, you're more efficient with your time.
You have more time for your family. You have more time for ministry. And then those people that you couldn't touch before, they're being touched through other processes, through other automations, through other efficiencies. That's sustainability. We're now affecting two realms. And that one realm that you couldn't touch before is now contributing back to the whole. That's sustainability.
[00:11:22] Tommy Thomas: What are some mistakes that you've observed, in the nonprofit sector as people attempt to innovate?
[00:11:29] Stewart Severino: Repeatedly. And I think this is something that requires indoctrination and it's kind of what I do, right? You have to go around and campaign yourself. This is a person-to-person initiative.
It's going around shaking hands, kissing babies, being personable, and saying, here is what innovation looks like in a discipline dispelling their previous conceptions or misconceptions of innovation isn't all that difficult because when you expose them to a disciplined innovation, it really changes the way they view their world.
[00:12:04] Stewart Severino: Typically, they view innovation like, well, I have this issue or we have these goals. Let's brainstorm. How many times have you heard that? Hey, join me for coffee and let's go brainstorm. No brainstorming comes later on in the process. In the beginning, it's understanding. Do we as a team, as an organization have a consensus on what the needs of the audience are?
When you define that need and you have a consensus on it, that becomes your true north. That is your compass. You don't deviate from it. You don't pollute it with technology or a process or good ideas that comes later. Let's stay to the bare minimum. What is your need?
[00:12:47] Tommy Thomas: This is gonna take us back a little bit and some of this stuff may not even be in play these days, I remember the last time I spoke at the outcomes conference at Christian Leadership I used this illustration from the 1980s, the U. S. Army came up with this acronym, VUCA, Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity, and Ambiguity. later on, the Center for Creative Leadership had to come up with their term, RUPT, Rapid, Unpredictable, Paradoxical, and Tangled. Another writer coined the term BANI, Brittle, Anxious, Non-Linear, and Incomprehensible.
And then the people over at Oxford, not to be outdone, they said it was Turbulent, Uncertain, Novel and Ambiguous. Now all of these are addressing external changes. Let's go there a little bit with external changes, and how you've seen them impact the nonprofit sector.
[00:13:44] Tommy Thomas: Have they either contributed or hurt innovation?
[00:13:51] Stewart Severino: External. So, you know, it's interesting you bring up VUCA. I was trained, I used to work for a consultancy where these guys, were the first top gun pilots there in the first class. And so, they were very efficient when it came to process and organization. So, we've worked in the space and you may have heard this on the previous called high-reliability organizations.
H. R. O. S. And so, the job of these is to minimize or reduce risk in an environment. So external risks on an organization. So how do we do that? How does an aircraft carrier run at such precision? When you have a team of young adults rotating every so often, it's the process, right?
[00:14:39] Stewart Severino: It's the discipline of the process that keeps people safe. It keeps people from dying. Think about commercial airliners, think about hospitals, think about oil rigs, right? Think about the military. And so, there's such high precision, not because they're awesome, but because they have a type process. And so, for the nonprofit space, what can you do within your organization?
You've got to take your time, which each with each department and analyze, hey, show me your process for X, Y, Z, whatever their tasks are. And when you take a deep dive into their process, you'll quickly understand. They most likely don't have a process. They probably have a bullet list of items.
[00:15:20] Stewart Severino: Hey, we do this, then we do that. If this happens, then that happens. And that's okay. That's a great starting point. But until you fully fleshed out the ifs and thens, and the now what's in the work process of that particular department, you won't be able to fully understand what's going on. The possible risks that are going to come from the outside or even from within the inside, within the organization.
So really taking your time and fleshing out your work process and throwing that word out there, because that's a real thing, work, process, get to it, use it, incorporate it. It'll protect you from not just everyday mistakes. Let's say marketing doesn't have a work process for their marketing automation campaigns.
[00:16:02] Stewart Severino: We see this a lot when they send emails that you've opted out of already. It's probably because they're not checking against what's called a suppression list on the backend. You're supposed to be suppressed from that. There's no process that checks for that, right? it's a silly little example, but I think it works for this model for what I'm trying to say.
So, risk from outside of the organization is just as real as risk from within the organization. And the only way to solve for that is by taking a deep look into the process of each department.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:16:32] Tommy Thomas: We've all seen the TV show Shark Tank. And I've been asking this question a lot lately. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank where the nonprofits were asking you for early-stage funding. What questions would you need solid answers to before you made that investment?
[00:16:56] Stewart Severino: For a nonprofit, it's a little different. But first I would say, have you identified the market? Right. Basic question, but I think again, many entrepreneurs, I think many nonprofits jump to solutions, assumed solutions, assumed technologies. But my first question would be, have you identified your market?
And so, you identify your market again by identifying a need. So, I'll give you an example. If I can identify a market by demographics, that's typically how most organizations run, especially marketing leaders. They'll say, give me the demographic data. I don't know, uh, affluent married couples in their thirties and forties.
[00:17:40] Stewart Severino: Okay. Let's say this nonprofit focuses on providing marriage resources. All right. If the need of the couple is to have better conflict resolution and better listening skills, well that's a need, and that need transcends the affluent and the poor. So now we've identified a real market, not just affluent, because the poor, or the underprivileged will still consume those resources.
And if you're offering free resources, that's only going to make your dashboard of success look even better because you're bringing in a larger audience. Sure. They may not convert in terms of dollars later on to how you would expect the athlete, but you're going to have a much bigger audience.
[00:18:26] Stewart Severino: And with a bigger audience, you have a bigger platform. So, you know, my first look is “Have you truly identified a market” and “Do you even know how to recognize a market”?
[00:18:36] Tommy Thomas: If you are creating a dashboard for nonprofit organizations' overall health what would be some of the dials on your dashboard?
[00:18:47] Stewart Severino: Uh, well, one indication, this is going to sound cheesy. Um, the way to indicate health and organization is to have a healthy organization. So typically, we don't have HR-related things on our dashboard, right? We don't have the qualitative information. And I typically stay away from the squishy stuff, right?
I like hard numbers. I like my return on investments. I like my lifetime value in customers. I think we have to start looking at the squishy stuff, like, uh, something similar to an NPS score, not a promoter score. We see companies use this all the time to have their customers judge their brand.
[00:19:30] Stewart Severino: And typically, an NPS score looks like, how likely are you to refer this service to your friend? Scale of one to five, something as simple like that, right? We have CSAT scores, which are customer satisfaction scores. They function the same way. They are qualitative, not quantitative. So, for me on my dashboard, I would love to always have the pulse of the organization's health, because a healthy organization breeds a healthy organization.
[00:20:01] Tommy Thomas: I always get people to respond to some quotes, usually they're doing it within the context of, their area of expertise. So, let's go there for a little bit then. Here's one from Steve Jobs. Marketing is about values. It's a complicated and noisy world, and we're not going to get a chance to get people to remember much about us. No company is. So, we have to be really clear about what we want them to know about us.
[00:20:31] Stewart Severino: I'm looking for the wisdom in those words. He's right. There's a lot of visual noise out there. There's a lot of audio noise out there.
I think he's right. I mean, there's a desire there to stick out. I think that's every marketer's challenge. How do you stick out in this noisy world? So yeah, he's not wrong in that. Obviously, he created Apple. I mean, come on. He did a few things, right? I think if I had an answer to that, um, yes and amen to that all day long, but also, how do we see people, how do we have corporate responsibility beyond the tools we have given to them?
[00:21:17] Stewart Severino: So, you know, iPhone came out in 2007, no real guidelines around ethics. The consumption is wild. And you only see that peaking today. It's just the addiction to the scrolling is unbelievable. And so, where is the corporate responsibility in launching something and then hand-holding your consumers throughout the process?
Now that may sound, idealistic or naive on some level, but take it beyond Apple and apply that to your nonprofit organization. How much more value, how much more relationship, or how much more relational does your organization look to your audience when you bother to take the time to engage them?
[00:22:06] Stewart Severino: Beyond just your service as it relates to your service, right? So, looking at the iPhone example again, what if there were some careful pieces of content for parents who decided to give their children an iPad or an iPhone? What would that have looked like today any different? I don't know, you know, it's a human condition, but that's my point is, do we have a corporate responsibility?
[00:22:30] Tommy Thomas: Here’s one from Thomas Edison, genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration.
[00:22:40] Stewart Severino: How do you respond to that? Genius is 1 percent inspiration. And that's true, right? When you have an idea, what happens? It's like a light switch. You didn't think it through methodically, it just showed up in your brain.
Right? It's like pop. You may have been processing it for weeks or days or whatever, but at one moment in time, in one second, something popped into your brain. And so that 1 percent is profound. And so, acknowledging that, right? And saying, wow, okay, where did that come from? What do I do with that? Yeah, so the rest of it is a lot of hard work.
[00:23:16] Tommy Thomas: If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change.
[00:23:23] Stewart Severino: If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change. I was the worst at coloring, so, the picture always looked different for me, which is what helped me to never stay within the box. So I can appreciate that quote. I had problems with that growing up. I had problems with that in my career It never looked like how my bosses wanted it to look and I suffered for that.
You know, I would jump around I always wanted different experiences. And so, when the guides in your life are saying, hey, longevity, longevity, longevity. When that was being told, there was something that bothered me about that. I said, I understand that. I understand the commitment, but I want variety, variety, variety.
[00:24:07] Stewart Severino: And so, I would take two, three-year stints and rotate. And while you have recruiters shaking their heads at that, I'm like, this is going to serve me well somewhere. Because I have touched just about every vertical there is. And that cumulative experience has really helped the organizations that I have served because I get to borrow from other industries that I would never have touched before. So, I appreciate coloring outside the lines.
[00:24:38] Tommy Thomas: From Margaret Thatcher, you may have to fight a battle more than once to win it.
[00:24:44] Stewart Severino: Isn't that our daily challenge? Every day, every time your feet touch that floor, you know, you're engaging in battle. So, the perseverance that is needed, comes from a strength that's definitely outside of you.
[00:24:58] Tommy Thomas: Winston Churchill, to improve is to change. To be perfect is to change often.
[00:25:07] Stewart Severino: Assuming you can get to a point of perfection, you'd have to change pretty much every single moment.
[00:25:15] Tommy Thomas: Last one, Albert Einstein. Problems cannot be solved on the same level of thinking at which they were created.
[00:25:28] Stewart Severino: Man, you're just throwing tough ones at me today. You know, and I have to say there's truth in that because it's like trying to use finite words to describe an infinite God. You just can't do it. Right. And that's why we have faith. That's why it's called faith.
[00:25:44] Tommy Thomas: Let's close this out with a little bit of a lightning round. If you had a do-over in your life, what would it be?
[00:25:53] Stewart Severino: Wow, that's like saying, hey, which is your biggest regret? How would you start over? Um, I think my biggest do over, my one do over would be, seeking mentors, and trusting in other older males to walk alongside me.
[00:26:12] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would that be?
[00:26:24] Stewart Severino: I'd have to say, seek humility, seek humility, you know, because a lot of the errors in my life have been because of pride.
[00:26:48] Tommy Thomas: Is there anything about the overall, scope of innovation and organizational leadership that we haven't touched that you think would be good to include in this conversation?
[00:26:58] Stewart Severino: I think for those that have a deep desire, and a realistic interest in implementing innovation or a department of innovation in the organization, there has to be buy-in. There has to be buying at the top and there has to be a commitment once that individual or those individuals enter into the department, because the last thing you want is that one individual to be introduced and then have to fight an uphill battle.
[00:27:29] Stewart Severino: So, we haven't really discussed or gotten into what it looks like from a cultural standpoint within the organization, but that's one of the first things I looked for before taking a role in innovation is saying, do I have support at the top? And what is that going to look like as I get going?
[00:27:47] Stewart Severino: Will I continue to have support or am I going to have opposition or are there others that are just rolling their eyes like, oh, okay, one more thing, you know, that I have to deal with, right? Those are realities and we're human and we have enough on our plates. And so, these are questions that need to be thoroughly considered.
[00:28:06] Stewart Severino: So, I would say at the highest level, if you're entertaining having an innovation department, you know, consider how much dedication and support you're going to give to this role.
++++++++++++++
[00:28:19] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
[00:28:43] Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
[00:29:07] Tommy Thomas: If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
The Navigators
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:03] Trina Fullard: I never intended to go to college to play basketball. It was not a plan for me. Academics was my focus. The day that the coach from college came to watch me play, I didn't even know she was there because he never told me until the game was over.
And he said, I want you to meet someone, and that's when he introduced me to Vicki Staten, who was my college coach. And I just asked him, I said, why didn't you tell me that somebody was going to be here watching me play, he said, because I didn't want you to be worried about what's around the corner, I wanted you to stay in the moment.
--
[00:00:41] Tommy Thomas: Our guests tonight are Trina and Kevin Fullard. Kevin took his B.A. in Psychology from Washington Jefferson College. He took his Master's of Science in Rehabilitation Counseling from West Virginia University.
[00:00:56] Tommy Thomas: He's the founder and principal at Unique Consulting and Professional Services, and we'll get him to tell us a little bit about that as we get in. Trina also took her B.A. in psychology from Washington and Jefferson. She took her Master's of Arts in Rehabilitation Counseling from the University of Maryland.
[00:01:14] Tommy Thomas: Trina is the CEO, and President-elect at Charlotte Rescue Mission, but on June the 1st, they're going to remove the elect piece of that title, and she will become the President and CEO of Charlotte Rescue Mission. In full disclosure, I must say that I met Trina, our firm, JobFitMatters Executive Search, did the CEO search there.
[00:01:39] Tommy Thomas: And as a part of our process we like to interview as many board members and staff members as we can to learn about the organization. And Trina was in my group of people to interview. As we got into the conversation, I just felt like I was talking to somebody that I had known forever and I just could see leadership written all over this lady.
[00:02:00] Tommy Thomas: During the conversation, she shared a little bit about her basketball career and that her husband also played football. And I thought, now this would be a good podcast to get the two of y'all on together. So Trina and Kevin, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:02:16] Trina Fullard: Thank you. Thank you, Tommy.
[00:02:19] Tommy Thomas: We've had a little sub-theme going here about the coaches in my life. We're going to talk a little bit about life and leadership lessons that people who've done well and intercollegiate athletics have learned from the coaches in their life. And this could go back to the coaches in grammar school on through college.
[00:02:36] Tommy Thomas: If you haven't heard one of these kind of conversations before, that's our format. Before I dive too deep into that, maybe each of you tell me a little bit about your childhood and somewhere along the way, tell me how you met each other.
[00:02:55] Trina Fullard: Okay. I'll start. I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania in the suburbs of Pittsburgh and, essentially learned as a young child how to be a strong independent young woman. I'm the oldest of two siblings. I have a younger sister who I grew up in the home with, and so I was always a caretaker and looking out for her.
[00:03:17] Trina Fullard: I had a really strong will to be the best at everything wanted to be. A straight-A student, wanted to excel in whatever I was doing and continued that along the way, all the way up through high school, and then my first experience, probably where I had a coach was probably cheerleading in Little League Mighty Might says, you would mighty might football players needed the little cheerleaders.
Being a mighty mite cheerleader was my first experience at being part of a team and having to work with other folks for us to be good at something.
[00:03:46] Trina Fullard: To root them on, but that was my first experience at being a part of a team and having to work with other folks for us to be good at something. So I'll let Kev talk a little bit about his childhood before we talk about how we met.
[00:04:03] Kevin Fullard: I also grew up in a suburb of Pittsburgh, but I was closer to the inner city.
[00:04:10] Kevin Fullard: Okay. So my experience was a little different. Because with the inner city of Pittsburgh, education originally wasn't the main focus. We had a lot of focus on sports because I knew there was a bigger place outside of that area. And just trying to figure out the path to be able to excel, to get out. So education became a piece of the puzzle as well as the athletics to be able to move forward and really just try to do better in life and be able to use that to go back and help the people that show them this is a pattern and a path to be able to exceed.
Education and athletics showed me that there was a bigger place outside of the inner city and I could go there.
[00:05:06] Tommy Thomas: Wow. And how did y'all get together?
[00:05:09] Trina Fullard: We like to tell the story that there was a bet that I didn't know about. And Kevin is a year ahead of me. He graduated a year ahead. And when I got to Washington and Jefferson as a freshman, he was a sophomore. And there were not many black students on the campus of Washington and Jefferson at the time, about 1200 students and there were about 17 of us.
[00:05:36] Trina Fullard: Oh, my, right? And Kevin inquired from some friends of his about, who's that young girl? I think with the incoming freshman class.
[00:05:50] Kevin Fullard: Because I played football. We were there during the summer before the freshman students came in. So as the freshman class came in, we would look out of the window and see, oh that person over there.
[00:06:06] Kevin Fullard: She looks cute. And we would try to find their names and pictures in the little freshman book to say, I need to get a little more information on her.
[00:06:15] Trina Fullard: My book, my picture wasn't in the book, Tommy. I didn't send it in. And I'm not quite sure why. I think maybe our senior pictures weren't ready at the time.
[00:06:26] Trina Fullard: So he had to ask around a little bit and what I learned later after we started dating was that one of the upper-class girls had said to him, even though you're asking about her, she's out of your league. She won't date you and they bet him that he couldn't get me to go out with him.
[00:06:51] Trina Fullard: And so our first date during my freshman year was during the winter basketball season. He was at home on break from his football. The football season had ended. We had just ended it. So he called me and he asked me, what was I doing? And I said, oh, I just finished practice.
[00:07:09] Trina Fullard: And he lived about 40 minutes from the college. He drove all the way back to the college. Knocked on my door, I opened the door, not realizing I had just spoken to him on the phone and I knew he was at home and I'm like, what are you doing here? And he said, put on a sweatshirt. We're going to go for a ride and I'm like, I just finished practice.
[00:07:36] Trina Fullard: I'm not in the mood for going out anywhere and he was not going to take no for an answer. So we jump in the car and he takes me to an outdoor ice skating rink. Now I really think he's crazy because I'm like, it's the middle of basketball season. I've never been ice skating before. And you think I'm going to get on some ice skates so I can fall?
[00:08:01] Kevin Fullard: This was the opportunity for me to see if she was really an athlete. Ha. Oh me.
[00:08:09] Trina Fullard: So I think we sat in the car for about 20 minutes. Yes. Uhhuh. And he promised that he would not let me fall. And we got out, we had a great time and I probably fell more than she did. Yeah. But then, after that, it was a really good time for us to bond as two people, two young college students.
[00:08:33] Trina Fullard: Trying to navigate through an experience that really turned out, I think, pretty well. 32 years going and we're still going strong.
[00:08:44] Tommy Thomas: I think that's pretty good. I think that's real good. Yeah. So both of you then were on your respective athletic teams there.
[00:08:52] Tommy Thomas: Were you both on a scholarship or did they have scholarships back then for your division or how did that go?
[00:08:59] Kevin Fullard: For our division, we didn't have full scholarships, so they gave us partial scholarships. I think we both had some athletic scholarships, but also education scholarship monies that they were able to give us.
[00:09:17] Kevin Fullard: And so that was the avenue we took to be able to pay for our time at W&J.
[00:09:27] Trina Fullard: They were very creative because we needed academic money, then there also was a little bit of need-based as well. I'm a first generation college student, but Kevin's older brother was the first generation college student and he went to W&J and Kevin essentially followed him and he played football as well.
[00:09:50] Trina Fullard: So his brother had started the path for college for his family.
--
[00:09:55] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about about your first coach at athletics?
[00:10:00] Kevin Fullard: My first coach was during little league baseball. And I think he really just taught a lot about understanding the game of baseball and trying to figure out how to work together as a team.
[00:10:17] Kevin Fullard: Because growing up, I had the friends in the neighborhood that we would play with and those were friends, but I realized becoming a part of a team was slightly different because now I'm working with and relying on people that really aren't my friends, but we have to work together in order to achieve a common goal.
[00:10:42] Kevin Fullard: So that was a great job that the coach did to get us to understand how to build a bond together and understand which or what each person was responsible for so that we could work together.
[00:11:00] Trina Fullard: So my first athletic coach was in high school. I started playing basketball only because a friend of mine wanted someone to be on the team that was a friend of hers.
[00:11:12] Trina Fullard: I think I learned how athletic I was and how skilled I was at picking things up quickly and then being able to excel at them from my coach in high school. And then I also learned from him that I could learn how not to anticipate. Just be in the moment.
[00:11:43] Trina Fullard: And enjoy the moment and don't get all, as we would say, get all crossed up around what's around the corner. And I say that because I never intended to go to college to play basketball. It was not a plan for me. Academics was my focus. The day that the coach from college came to watch me play, I didn't even know she was there because he never told me until the game was over.
My high school basketball coach taught me not to anticipate, but to live in the moment.
[00:12:12] Trina Fullard: And he said, I want you to meet someone, and that's when he introduced me to Vicki Staten, who was my college coach. And I just asked him, I said, why didn't you tell me that somebody was going to be here watching me play, he said, because I didn't want you to be worried about what's around the corner, I wanted you to stay in the moment.
[00:12:33] Tommy Thomas: Good life lesson.
[00:12:35] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. What coach has, do you think, got the most out of you?
[00:12:43] Kevin Fullard: I think from my perspective, the coach that I had as my defensive back coach in college definitely got the most out of me. And I think part of it was because I was becoming of age where I understood there is more to the game than just the game.
My college defensive back coach taught me that there is a lot more to football than the game of football. He taught life lessons that extended far beyond football.
[00:13:05] Kevin Fullard: And he really focused a lot on how playing football would relate to outside of the game. How the skills we're learning in football would transition into life experiences and life lessons. And that was a very important thing to learn at that time. So he's definitely the one that got the most out of me as an athlete, but I think myself as a person as well.
[00:13:42] Trina Fullard: I would agree. My college coach pulled a lot from me. And as I said earlier, I started playing the game of basketball in high school and she believed in me enough to bring me onto a team knowing that there was a lot more growth that she could pour into and and then being a leader she pressed me into that leadership role into in my sophomore and junior year of setting an example.
[00:14:13] Trina Fullard: And even on the bus, studying on the bus for younger athletes that came to see that, yeah, we're on the bus and we're going to, we have a four-hour ride to the game, but it's not about just sitting around and having a great time. There's still time to focus at some point. She would take me on her recruiting trips to talk to other players about what the experience was like at Washington and Jefferson, being on the basketball team and a part of the team and spending time riding in a car with her, listening to her talk about life and what life was going to be like after college.
[00:14:50] Trina Fullard: She gave me a book when I graduated and said, do what you love and the money will follow. That book was instrumental for me to realize after undergrad that I had to go on to grad school and continue to education.
[00:15:08] Tommy Thomas: So I think you've probably answered this question, but I was going to say at what point did you realize that your coach was trying to teach you more than basketball?
[00:15:17] Tommy Thomas: And it sounds like it sounded like that was a reasonably early-on experience in your college athletic experience.
[00:15:25] Trina Fullard: I think for me, Washington and Jefferson College and being so ingrained in the athletic space there we both also worked in the athletic office, so we were connected to all of the coaches and would support all of the teams, and so I think we both benefited from interacting with the coaches and life lessons sitting in the office, talking with them in the athletic office as they were just talking about, their families and hearing them talk about things that they were dealing with, we got that as a byproduct for the entire time that we were there. I know we worked in the athletic office for all four years.
[00:16:17] Kevin Fullard: And I think for me, it may not have come until my sophomore year. And the big lesson that really stood out for me, and I use it a lot from a counseling perspective. Now I tell a lot of people, especially if I'm working with young kids I try to tell them egos are overrated.
[00:16:40] Kevin Fullard: This is one of the big lessons that I try to work with young people on because as a freshman coming in, I felt I was a great athlete coming out of high school, but I wasn't a good teammate coming out of high school because I thought with from an ego perspective, I can do it all. Whatever the team needs, just rely on me.
[00:17:06] Kevin Fullard: I'll get it done. And it took the coach through the freshman year to make me realize - No, we all have to be a team. And that came with, I think a lot more maturity.
[00:17:24] Tommy Thomas: No matter how hard and dedicated you are to something failure is always an option. What did you learn from team sports about failure that's helped you in life?
[00:17:37] Kevin Fullard: I think that the big lesson that I've learned with failure, and this goes back to, I think my little league experience playing baseball. I used to be a pitcher in little league and our team made it to the championship game. My grandmother was very influential in my life and I pitched what I thought was a great game until the last inning and I threw a pitch and gave up a home run.
[00:18:11] Kevin Fullard: So we lost the game in the championship game two to one and I came home and I was crying and crying. Laid across my grandmother's lap and as a grandmother would do, she said, what happened in the game? And I explained to her, we lost. I gave up a home run in the last inning and I felt like I cost us the game.
[00:18:37] Kevin Fullard: And my grandmother said to me, did you do your best? And I went in to explain to her I threw my best pitch. My best pitch was a curveball. I threw it. I thought it was perfect and he hit it out of the stadium. And my grandmother said, you threw your best pitch. That's all I've ever asked of you. Give it your best.
[00:19:03] Kevin Fullard: And let the outcome be the outcome. Just hearing her say she was proud. I carry that through life.
[00:19:14] Trina Fullard: Yeah. Failure for me resonates from one high school basketball game where we were playing this team that was considered to be like the powerhouse and at the end of the first half of the game, we had only scored 5 points and this is high school.
[00:19:45] Trina Fullard: And I remember, I think it was something like 60 to five or something, and they didn't have a mercy rule back then. And so we went in the locker room and, the whole team, we're just like, we can't believe this, this is just ridiculous. And our coach said to us, listen, this is not about winning and losing.
[00:20:09] Trina Fullard: It's about your effort. You may not score 20 points. But you, the team in here, you all have to set a goal and as a team together and you work together, you hold your head up and you go out there and you do the best you can. We just felt so defeated.
[00:20:32] Trina Fullard: It took us a minute, we thought about what he said. And we set a goal, we said, we're going to go out there and we're going to score at least 10. So we're going to end up with at least 15. And we lost that game 103 to 35, but we had met our goal. And so the lesson for us at that time was together, even if we don't conquer, we're never going to give up and we're not going to hang our heads.
[00:21:05] Trina Fullard: Because again, as Kevin said, we did the best we could. We were clearly outmatched, but we didn't stop playing. We didn't just pack up our little bag and just go home.
--
[00:21:18] Tommy Thomas: It's often said that we learn the most when we fail in something, if that's the case, why are we so afraid to fail?
[00:21:30] Kevin Fullard: I think people become afraid to fail, not necessarily because of what's in them, but I think they're afraid of the judgment that comes along with failure. And, I try to get people to understand we can't compete or do anything in life with fear and worry about how people will judge us.
I think people become afraid to fail, not necessarily because of what's in them, but I think they're afraid of the judgment that comes along with failure.
[00:22:01] Trina Fullard: Yeah, I think the same thing, even if I look at the failures in my life what was I worried about, what was what the story would be, if you will. And so that's where I think a lot of times looking inside and saying, okay. What do I want to come out of this?
[00:22:26] Trina Fullard: What lesson can I learn? That's what I've always come back to is, okay, it didn't go the way I wanted. Okay, Lord, what's the lesson in it for me so that I continue to move forward?
[00:22:42] Tommy Thomas: I've got two things on the legendary coach, Dean Smith from Chapel Hill. And one of his quotes was, what do you do with the mistake? Recognize it, learn from it, admit it, and forget it.
[00:22:56] Kevin Fullard: There you go. Exactly. I would agree a hundred percent.
[00:23:03] Trina Fullard: Don't forget the learn from it part though.
[00:23:05] Tommy Thomas: In his book, it's how you play the game. The 12 leadership lessons of Dean Smith. David Chadwick, a local pastor there in Charlotte who played on one of coach Smith's final four teams writes the concept of team may be coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball leadership and society. Both of you work with a lot of teams. How has the concept of a team impacted your life?
[00:23:30] Trina Fullard: Oh, man, I would say it developed me into becoming what I would say is a collaborative leader, understanding that I need to set the playing field. And establish the rules for the team and, as long as those are clear everyone understands what their role is, and we can accomplish great things. I think it also requires me sometimes to, if I look at a football field, to sometimes be on the sideline with the team, but then sometimes I need to go up into the booth. And I need to see from a different angle. But just collaboratively being engaged and being in it when I need to be in it and reflecting back and allowing the team to work.
[00:24:22] Kevin Fullard: Yeah, and I think for me, from the team perspective, being able to look at the different players that make up the team, because I always believe we're as strong as the weakest link. And sometimes being able to identify people's strengths as well as their weaknesses is important in leadership and teamwork.
[00:24:52] Kevin Fullard: Because if I know one person has a particular weakness, but we can rally around them to make that weakness not something that's going to make the chain break, then that's a great focus for us to be on.
[00:25:16] Tommy Thomas: Another quote on team, a group is a bunch of people in an elevator. A team is a bunch of people in an elevator, but the elevator is broken.
[00:25:27] Trina Fullard: I like that.
[00:25:35] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, you have to you have to think on that. To let that one sink in. Let me go to risk for a minute. We all have taken risks. Some more than others.
[00:25:45] Tommy Thomas: What's the biggest risk you've taken in life and how did it turn out?
[00:25:55] Kevin Fullard: I would think the biggest risk that I've taken in life was the relocation to Charlotte from Pittsburgh, being able to move away from a support system, a network, because we didn't know anyone in Charlotte when we came down. I've never been to Charlotte, but I have family who live down towards the Wilmington area.
The biggest risk that I've taken in life. was the relocation to Charlotte from Pittsburgh – moving away from our support system because we didn't know anyone in Charlotte when we came down.
[00:26:27] Kevin Fullard: So I knew I enjoyed the weather of Charlotte and I wanted to get away from the snow of Pittsburgh. Yes. And that was the biggest risk because I didn't have a job I came to find out one of my cousins whom I knew as a child, but we hadn't seen each other in 15 years, had moved to Charlotte, so just coming down and having faith that we're going to make this work, and I think it was good for us as a couple because we became the new team, the team that we had in Pittsburgh.
[00:27:08] Kevin Fullard: Her team that she grew up with and my team that I grew up with was no longer. That team, they were that group in the elevator. We were now the team that was in the elevator.
[00:27:25] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. You both have mentioned the faith in your life. As people of faith, how do you deal with your competitive streak?
[00:27:38] Trina Fullard: I think this kind of might be one of the areas where we might be a little bit, a little different. For me, it is just relying on God to help me to keep it about serving him in a way that I can feel comfortable. Being competitive is not necessarily against the other person, but competing against myself.
[00:28:07] Trina Fullard: When we go bowling, where we're a family of athletes bowling now has become like the thing we compete at. Our son is an avid bowler as well. But at the end of the day, it's about the ability to still be in God's grace and in a space and being.
[00:28:29] Trina Fullard: Okay. I'm not maybe as much of a competitor as Kevin has been.
[00:28:36] Kevin Fullard: Yeah, and I think that is where we there for some because my faith, whenever I'm competing, I've always remembered praying that everyone in the game would be healthy. I never wanted to get into a football game where we cause major injury to anyone.
[00:29:02] Kevin Fullard: But in the game, it was truly competition of I'm out to win. There was no gray area. In my mind, and that was always the place I think I struggle from the faith standpoint because it wasn't just me competing, just enjoying my walk, it was me competing because I wanted to achieve this goal.
[00:29:36] Kevin Fullard: And this was my goal that I thought the other team was keeping me from.
[00:29:43] Tommy Thomas: It can be a struggle. Yes, it can be a struggle. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received from a mentor?
[00:30:02] Kevin Fullard: I think from my standpoint, the best piece of advice came from my college advisor during my junior year. We sat down and he was talking to me about what path I wanted in life. And he could tell a lot of the career choices I was picking were very conservative. And so he asked me to tell him my biggest fear.
[00:30:38] Kevin Fullard: And I told him my biggest fear was failure. And he sat down and really had a long discussion with me that holding on to a fear of failure will be the thing that would keep me from succeeding. Because I would never allow myself to push the limits. To see what other great things I could do. I would only try to achieve the simple things that I already knew I was good at.
[00:31:15] Tommy Thomas: So was going to graduate school, was that a fear? Was that outside your comfort zone or was that something that you just knew you were going to do?
[00:31:25] Kevin Fullard: Graduate school for me, wasn't something I knew I was going to do. I had this false belief of I'm going to get my bachelor's degree in psychology, and I was going to make 75,000 as my first job, and my advisor said to me, he said, okay, if that's your goal, I'm not going to tell you not to go for that. He said, but do me a favor, apply for graduate school. He said, I'll give you the whole summer to find the job that's going to pay you what you're looking for. And if you find it, you don't have to go to graduate school, but if you don't I win and you go to graduate school. So I told her I said, okay I'll take that deal and I searched, and the job that I found probably paid me about 20,000.
[00:32:26] Kevin Fullard: So in the middle of December, I called my advisor and I told him I guess I'm going to graduate school. You win.
[00:32:35] Tommy Thomas: What about you Trina?
[00:32:37] Trina Fullard: For me I didn't really have, I would say, a mentor, that imparted some words, some wisdom on me. For me, it was my mom, and she passed in 2015. But the one thing that she would say to me, as I was going into high school, going into college, going into graduate school, when I became a mom, she would say to me this all the time.
[00:33:05] Trina Fullard: She said, Trina, when people meet you and they get to know you, there’s going to be a lot of people that are going to be expecting that there's another shoe that's going to drop as though when they meet you, that's not who you really are. She said, I know there's not another shoe. Don't you forget that. So I've carried that with me throughout a lot of all these experiences that I've had in the last few years because I walk into a lot of rooms.
[00:33:41] Trina Fullard: And I get stares or looks or people are wondering, oh who's she, why is she here? And I've had to get to know people who are trying to wonder, is this lady for real? Is she really who she says she is? And I just remember my mom, hearing my mom's voice saying, there's no other shoe.
[00:34:02] Trina Fullard: Just remember that.
[00:34:07] Tommy Thomas: Hopefully we've come out of the pandemic. That may be debatable, but thinking back on the lessons you learned in the pandemic what's the biggest lesson you think you'll take forward, that you thought I learned that we can do that next year, pandemic or not?
[00:34:25] Trina Fullard: I learned resilience. Early on, right when we weren't really sure what the pandemic really meant and how it was going to affect people. I was diagnosed with Covid and had got it from a coworker. And this house went into like fortress mode. I was, locked in the room, literally anytime I came out, I had to notify everyone I was coming out of the room.
The pandemic taught me resilience.
[00:34:52] Trina Fullard: My husband treated me like I was in jail. But that we were faced early on with, this is a health issue. It's a health risk. Unfortunately, my coworker who I had caught it from passed away. So that put it like in our face. But we learned early on that our family was resilient and we could create our bubble and we could move from day to day and place to place.
[00:35:20] Trina Fullard: And that we were going to be okay. And then we also knew as we prayed and we were like, okay, God, you got to cover us. We are essential workers. So there was no isolating and just, being in the house, we were still going to work each and every day. And so for me, it was resilient and that we could get through.
[00:35:44] Kevin Fullard: And I think for me, going through that period of COVID was learning the fact of not being afraid of the unknown because no one at that time knew what it was going to be like. I saw on TV where they were having the trailers outside of the hospitals putting all of the dead bodies and there was that fear.
The pandemic taught me more about not being afraid of the unknown.
[00:36:17] Kevin Fullard: But it also made me realize I was still going into hospitals, doctors' offices, meeting with my clients because they needed me there. And I had to overcome that fear of just focusing on myself and having faith that I will be protected, that God was watching over me, and that as long as I do His will, everything will be safe.
--
[00:36:48] Tommy Thomas: Let me wrap it up with a couple of kind of closing questions. One, if you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself something, what would you say?
[00:37:10] Trina Fullard: Don't look back.
[00:37:12] Trina Fullard: Leave your past in the past and keep your eyes focused on what's ahead of you.
[00:37:19] Kevin Fullard: And I think for me, it would be the people in your life who are meant to be with you will always be with you. That there are some people that you just can't bring along for the ride.
[00:37:42] Tommy Thomas: Say you're invited to a banquet next week and this will happen to you many times in the next 15-20 years, you're invited to a banquet and you're sitting beside a total stranger. How do you start a meaningful conversation? Share.
[00:38:01] Trina Fullard: There are so many options with that, Tommy. It depends on the setting, the event. But if I’m sitting next to a total stranger I would just say, hey, my name's Trina. What's yours?
[00:38:19] Kevin Fullard: I think if I was sitting in the banquet, I would probably ask them, what's their role, what do you do? Because that's usually a big conversation starter. People can take that question in many different ways. And so that's a way that I always try to figure out what's important to that person's life.
[00:38:47] Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them only one question, who would you want to meet and what would the question be?
[00:39:03] Trina Fullard: If I could meet one person, I would love to meet Michelle Obama. And I would ask her what motivates her. What drives you to move the way you move?
[00:39:28] Kevin Fullard: I think I would want to meet Nelson Mandela to find out how do you hold on to the thing that you believe when everything around you is trying to destroy that belief and that drive you have and to keep that passion to still deliver the message that you want to deliver.
[00:39:59] Tommy Thomas: What small act of kindness were you once shown that you'll never forget?
[00:40:22] Kevin Fullard: The act of kindness, and it’s probably a very simple thing, but it meant the world to me was standing outside as a, probably a 10-year-old, nine-year-old. And we used to walk to the store and we grew up without a lot of money. And we were standing outside of the ice cream shop. It was a hot day and a customer who was walking in knew we didn't have any money to buy the ice cream and something as simple as she said, can you guys come in with me and help me carry something? And so we were being nice and we went in to help her. We thought she would have something big she needed to carry. And when we went in with her, she had us pick out an ice cream cone and she said, I just want you to carry this back outside. And that just meant the world to me because that act of kindness made me want to do those things for others.
[00:41:47] Trina Fullard: For me, Tommy, right now it centers around the last few months that my mother was alive. She lived here in Charlotte and stayed with us primarily. And I have a group of friends that there are four ladies and they knew how tough that was on me. And so randomly, they would come to the hospital and just sit, it was like, they took turns, like just being that moral support.
[00:42:21] Trina Fullard: And, for me, it was Trina go downstairs and get something to eat. I'll sit here with your mom while you go downstairs, she would be going for a test. One of them would be there and say, nope, I'll go down and I'll be there while she's going through that test. So you can have a minute just so that you can breathe and I knew they were my friends, but I think I really knew how much I meant to them and how our bond got stronger. Because that time for me was very hard and they were just there and I'll never forget them for how they just showed up at a time when I'm not really good at asking for help, but I didn't have to ask them.
[00:43:09] Tommy Thomas: This has been a great conversation. Thank y'all for taking time from your evening to spend this time with me and the audience. And Karina I was thinking this afternoon, I want to circle back to you about six months after you've been in the corner office and we want to talk about what this first six months being the CEO was like.
[00:43:29] Tommy Thomas: So I'm all for it. I appreciate that. I hope I have lots to share.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Charlotte Rescue Mission
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Kevin Fullard on LinkedIn
Follow Trina Fullard on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] Larry Lincoln: And I had some good mentors along the way. My very first supervisor in the military, his name was Charles Benton. I'll never forget him. He told me, he said, look - there are keys to success. You want to be professional. You don't have to know everything, but if you don't know it, be willing to find out and always be available, turn situations into not a no, but try to find win situations for people.
[00:00:24] Larry Lincoln: And those are the things that have always stuck with me.
+++++++++++++++++++++=
Tommy Thomas: My guest today is Larry Lincoln. Larry and I have been friends for, I don't know, 15-20 years. Larry, do you recall our first meeting?
[00:00:35] Larry Lincoln: Yeah, I think it was back when I was still in Colorado Springs at one of the ministries there. So yeah, it's been about that length of time.
[00:00:44] Tommy Thomas: And I remember when we had dinner, you and I, and your wife, and like my friend Bo Patton, the football player at Vanderbilt told me when he met me and my wife, he said, Tommy, you out kicked your coverage. And so, I'm going to say having had dinner with Dixie, you definitely out kicked your coverage in that merger.
[00:01:03] Larry Lincoln: Amen, brother. So true. So true.
[00:01:06] Tommy Thomas: Larry's been into the Communications and Public Relations field I guess his entire adult life. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to get him on the call. We'd say we've known each other a long time. I've watched his career. He is currently working with Compassion International. He’ll tell us a little bit about his work there, but Larry, take me back to your early days. What two or three experiences do you remember from childhood that made you into the man you are today?
[00:01:32] Larry Lincoln: Wow. Yeah, my childhood was a little atypical, Tommy, not the standard one. As a kid my parents weren't together. They split up when I was a young age, and they did one thing other than having us, but what they decided is they knew that things weren't going to work, and they wanted the kids, there were three of us at the time, to be in more stable homes.
I was born in Martinsburg, West Virginia, and my folks sent me up to live with grandparents in Newcastle, Pennsylvania, a little town outside of Pittsburgh. And growing up there, man, it was so special because my grandmother was a God-fearing woman. We called her Mother Mary, but she was the one who just embraced me.
[00:02:14] Larry Lincoln: I'll never forget as a three-year-old, I remember sitting on the floor learning to read with blocks. She was just so invested in my life. And so, growing up together in that home and having her just pour into me was something I'll never forget. She was just a godsend. She was ahead of her time.
She was very into trying to shape and mold me into being a godly man. She always used to tell me, I'd ask her as a young kid, Mother Mary, what do you want me to be? And she said, son, love the Lord and be a good man. And that was all that she ever asked of me. So, remembering growing up in that home, growing up in our neighborhood, the church was called St. John's United Holy Church. And she made sure that as a youngster, I was in that church and that was like an extended family for me, they were so close and so nurturing and loving and then finally entering the military. I think the military was easy compared to growing up in Mother Mary's house.
[00:03:10] Larry Lincoln: The military that esprit de corps, that structure, that being a part of something bigger than yourself, that really appealed to me. So those are a few experiences, I believe, shaped who I am today.
[00:03:24] Tommy Thomas: How'd you get from high school to the military? Was there a big decision mark there?
[00:03:29] Larry Lincoln: No what it was I went off to college following high school for a brief period of time, about a year, but my grandmother was ill during my college, my high school time. And so, I finished school and was taking care of her. And I wanted to stay nearby.
I was a baseball player for a time, and I really wanted to play baseball in college. I had a brother at that time who was in the Air Force over in Hawaii and he was doing well, but I couldn't leave her. So, I decided to stay close to home and take care of her and go to a local college there, West Minister College, in New Wilmington, Pennsylvania.
[00:04:05] Larry Lincoln: But then she passed. And then, as a youngster with all that stuff going on, and then of course, college getting expensive and stuff, I said, I wanted to take a break. And my brother was doing well in the military. And I said, oh, let me give that a try. So that's how I got into the military.
[00:04:21] Tommy Thomas: Is that how you got into public relations and communications in the military?
[00:04:25] Larry Lincoln: Yes, absolutely. I spent 22 years total in the Air Force and for the lion's share at that time, I was in public affairs, which was public affairs is the military version of public relations, I went to journalism school, and learned to write.
I went all the way up through the ranks and held every job in communications, in media relations, community relations, planning, crisis communication, all that great stuff. And so, they give you a well-rounded education. That's how I got my start and I've been doing it ever since.
[00:04:56] Tommy Thomas: So, what do you remember about the first time you had to manage people?
[00:05:00] Larry Lincoln: Wow. I'll tell you in the Air Force, one thing about it is they send you, they give you a lot of training. So, you go to leadership school and all these things. I went to all those. They give you the theory of what you should do as a leader and how you should lead people.
But when you step into that role for the first time, and sometimes some of the people around the same age as you. And you're being called to have responsibility and lead. It was terrifying at first because, wow, can I do this? But then at the same time, knowing that they had prepared you well, they trained you well, it was a matter of just stepping into that role with confidence and learning along the way.
[00:05:40] Larry Lincoln: And I had some good mentors along the way. My very first supervisor in the military, his name was Charles Benton. I'll never forget him. He told me, he said, look - there are keys to success. He said, you want to be professional. He said, you don't have to know everything, but if you don't know it, be willing to find out and always be available, turn situations into not a no, but try to find win situations for people.
And those are the things that's always stuck with me.
[00:06:08] Tommy Thomas: Of course, I know a lot of the stuff you did in the military might be classified, but are there any crisis management stories you could tell that that turned out well?
[00:06:18] Larry Lincoln: Do we have time? Tell me, one of the things is, yeah, I've been involved in enumerable crisis situations in the military and out of the military, and I think that they provided a tremendous platform for understanding what happens and how to respond.
I learned early on that you are either in a crisis, getting ready to go into one, or you’re coming out of one. So, planning and preparation are key!
[00:06:31] Larry Lincoln: Things like that. I've been involved in everything from plane crashes, the bombings, the Khobar Tower bombings, the Payne Stewart plane crash. A lot of different crisis situations, natural disasters, hurricanes, and things don't just happen. One of the things that I learned in that situation is that you're either in a crisis, you're getting ready to go into one, or you're coming out of one.
[00:06:54] Larry Lincoln: And so, preparation and planning becomes really key.
[00:06:57] Tommy Thomas: I remember the Payne Stewart crash and, knew a little bit about his family. What do you remember about that?
[00:07:05] Larry Lincoln: I remember it was a national media situation where, if you recall, that plane was just drifting out there, and it was all over the television. It was a very tense situation, and we didn't have a lot of answers because, at that point in time, we had to wait for some things to happen. But I remember just being captivated just like the rest of the world with that situation and being intimately involved in responding. I was at NORAD Space Command there in Colorado Springs at the time, and NORAD had those jets that were actually tracking and tracking that and were sent up to intercept that and let it play out. So, it was a really interesting situation. It was heartbreaking, but that's the level of crisis and things that we became used to in the military career.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:51] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to the nonprofit sector. Because you've spent some time with some good organizations in the nonprofit world. How does a nonprofit preparedness compare with the military level of preparedness for emergencies or crisis?
[00:08:04] Larry Lincoln: Generally speaking, I think that the federal government and the military, of course, it's very institutionalized and sometimes in the nonprofit community we don't know what we don't know. And many times, organizations get caught flat-footed, but I think there's a lesson to be learned there that, like I said, if you go back to what I said earlier, that cycle, you're preparing to enter a crisis. You're in a crisis or you're coming out of one. If you look at that, and that as a constant, it allows you to look at situations that you can prepare for.
[00:08:35] Larry Lincoln: You can think about your vulnerabilities, and that's one of the things senior communications folks have a role, especially in PR being able to look out and forecast for an organization, what the environment looks like, what some of the risks and threats. I think we all have the ability to do that.
[00:08:52] Larry Lincoln: It's just the consciousness and the intentionality of being able to plan. Nobody likes to be in that situation, but I think during those times when we're not, we should use those as opportunities to really look and get a good sense of our environment that we're operating in threats, risks, et cetera.
[00:09:13] Tommy Thomas: In an ideal world, what's the role of the Chief Communications Officer?
The Chief Communications Officer serves as a trusted advisor to the CEO in addition to serving as a brand ambassador and guardian of the organization’s reputation.
[00:09:18] Larry Lincoln: The Chief Communications Officer serves as a trusted advisor. They're responsible for key functions, such as advising your CEO, upper leadership on communication, engagement, goals, strategies, and issues. Coaching for top executives, strategic communication, engagement, planning, serving as a brand ambassador and guardian of organizational reputation.
A lot of times I'd like to say that the individual who holds that role is also the conscience of an organization. They also foster visibility, and understanding of the operational objectives. One of the things that I think is really key to anyone in a communication role is understanding the business, and that's chief communication officer needs to understand the business, how it works, and the objectives in order to effectively communicate to external and internal audiences.
[00:10:07] Larry Lincoln: And so bottom line, you'll want to serve to ensure organizational messaging, consistency to all of an organization’s audiences, and that can be an umbrella function that covers things like corporate communications, media, relations, issues, crisis, reputation, and reputational, internal communications, things like that.
[00:10:28] Tommy Thomas: What do you mean by the conscience of the organization?
[00:10:32] Larry Lincoln: Many times, communicators, if you're really looking out at the landscape and understand your stakeholders, your publics, the people that you're working with. I like to take an attitude of if I'm a community serving in the senior communication function, and a lot of time operational decisions are made, I like to point out to senior leaders, you think about having an empty chair in that boardroom where you are and consider that empty chair being occupied by some of your stakeholders, be it the public, be it a donor.
Be it an advocate. How would they feel? How would they react to what decision you're making? And many times, organizations think about how they operate, but they don't think about pulling the curtain back and having other people who are not in the organization understand how they operate.
[00:11:21] Larry Lincoln: They take it for granted sometimes. So, if you use that approach and think about that empty chair and put a key audience there, how would they react? That's being a conscience and really thinking through the decisions and the postures that we're going to take because ultimately at the end of the line, those are the people that we're impacting.
So that's what I mean by being a conscience and I think I'm a firm believer that organizations pretty much communicate how they operate. It just happens naturally. So, if you don't really think about those things, you're going to communicate in a vacuum and then try to play catch up to help key audiences understand what you really mean, what your heart is.
[00:12:00] Tommy Thomas: Here again, in an ideal world, should the Chief Communications Officer sit on the cabinet, be on the same level as a CFO, Chief Information, or Chief Marketing Officer?
[00:12:10] Larry Lincoln: Absolutely. It's vitally important that the Chief Communication Officer have that same type of relationship, a very close relationship at the top of the business, such as the CFO, the Chief Marketing Officer, and I'll tell you why.
The CCO has to ensure continuously open and timely communications channels. There are a lot of things that impact an organization these days. A 24/7 news cycle that requires immediate response. The importance of reputational management and organizational branding. The need for alignment and integration of messaging throughout the organization. You talked earlier about crisis situations, the need for proactive and immediate crisis communication response. There are a lot of studies out there about chief communication officers. But there's one that talks about organizations with CCOs reporting directly to the CEO has the greatest alignment between corporate objectives, communications, and all activities.
[00:13:10] Larry Lincoln: That involves engaging key stakeholders. Yeah, it's vitally important to have that direct peer relationship with some of those other C-Suite executives.
[00:13:20] Tommy Thomas: You've done the communications piece and you've been Director of Public Relations. In broad terms, what's the difference between those two functions?
I'll give you the definition of what PR is. It's the management function that establishes and maintains mutually beneficial relationships between an organization and the public on whom its success or failure depends.
[00:13:27] Larry Lincoln: In broad terms, there's a lot of overlap, and think about the Chief Communications function, corporate communications, things like that as the umbrella. Typically, in the world that we live in now, public relations and I'll give you the definition of what PR is. It's the management function that establishes and maintains mutually beneficial relationships between an organization and the public on whom its success or failure depends. In our current framework of things, typically PR folks deal mostly with media engagement, and things like that. But they also reach beyond that to work with publics and organizations, publics and develop and maintain those key relationships.
[00:14:08] Larry Lincoln: Think of the Chief Communications Officer who is developing the strategy. About how an organization communicates with all of its stakeholders and the PR function as executing that strategy for some specific audiences.
[00:14:21] Tommy Thomas: Okay. I guess when you started, we didn't have a 24-hour news cycle or if we did, it was young. How have you seen that impact communications, in general, and the effectiveness of corporate communications?
[00:14:40] Larry Lincoln: It's definitely a challenge because there are a couple of challenges related to that. You're right in the past we did not have that 24/7, but with the proliferation of social media, it becomes an even greater challenge because now you have unvetted unfiltered experts on social media.
One of the challenges of social media is that you now have unvetted, unfiltered experts who, on occasion, are sowing disinformation or misinformation. That presents a challenge to the audience.
[00:14:57] Larry Lincoln: Who rightfully in some cases maybe get it wrong, but in other cases are sowing disinformation or misinformation and so that becomes a challenge for our audiences because they're consuming this and some of them are very selective on what they consume. So, we have to really understand our audiences in many cases.
We develop personas of different folks that we want to reach and understand where they get their information so we can tailor communications to get to them in a timely fashion. It's a huge challenge now because way back when we had three major networks, and they were respected. The news was then broadcast in a certain way, and now today with the proliferation of mass media, and social media, it's a huge challenge.
[00:15:42] Larry Lincoln: And it makes us be able to want to be able to respond much more rapidly and be prepared. And that's why preparation and understanding audiences become so much more important.
[00:15:53] Tommy Thomas: What is the biggest trouble a CEO can get into using social media? What are the downsides, maybe?
[00:16:00] Larry Lincoln: Not understanding social media. And I think social media is a ripple. It should not be seen as something to avoid. Not at all. And there are some CEOs who just, I've heard of some who just refuse to engage in that. And they have to think of that as another key communication channel.
They, just like you'd use media, just like you use internal, you have to plan for it. And so not having a plan, not understanding who the audience is, not really mapping out and being clear what you want to say and what you want them to do. Ultimately, everything that we do with communication, we want to move people.
I tell people we want to move them along a continuum of awareness. Understanding acceptance and then commitment, and that's especially true in the nonprofit realm. You want to make people aware of what you do and why you make a difference in this cluttered world with all these different agencies that are doing many the same thing.
And competing for the same audiences. why are we different? What's unique about us? Maybe we need to help you understand more about what we do and why it matters to you. Then you move them along that continuum to understand how it impacts them. What's in it for them? And then get them to accept and then commit once you can get them to that stage, then you can move them along and you can get them to do pretty much anything.
But social media, I think you have to look at it as another channel that needs attention. It needs constant feeding of the beast, so to speak. You can't go dark. You can't start it and then just go dark and let weeks go by. You have to continue to talk. And it's like having a conversation at a dinner party.
[00:17:36] Larry Lincoln: How many people would talk to you if you had something boring to say or nothing really meaty to say, and you just stop talking? They'd find somebody else to talk to. So, it's just another channel that needs to be harvested, invested in really intentionally worked with.
+++++++++++++++=
[00:17:54] Tommy Thomas: Oh, what kind of counsel are you giving young people today who think they might want a career in communications?
[00:18:00] Larry Lincoln: I think the traditional liberal arts is always good. English, journalism, things like that, but also supplemented by finance and organizational management courses. The reason being it goes back to what I said earlier.
The Chief Communications Officer must know the business – they must know what keeps the CEO up at night.
[00:18:12] Larry Lincoln: I really think to be truly effective communicators have to know the business. They have to be able to know what keeps the CEO up at night. They need to be able to read the balance sheet. They need to know how we operate, because if you don't understand those things, how can you effectively communicate to key stakeholders?
And so, I think those are key things, and I think to start out to begin their career, it's always helpful to start out in some writing capacity, I believe. Writing is the foundation of all communication, to be able to present ideas in a logical manner that's easy, that's understood to your audiences.
I believe that to be the foundation. And then just moving through, like I said earlier, getting your experience in a lot of different areas. But I think those are some of the foundational elements for someone who desires to enter this field.
[00:19:02] Tommy Thomas: Let's move over to team leadership a little bit, because most everything gets done in the context of a team. Tell me what's the most ambitious project you've ever tackled with a team and how did it come out?
[00:19:14] Larry Lincoln: I think that would be at an organization later in my career, a ministry organization. And this organization was a long-standing one that had a lot of different members for a long period of time.
And over time, the members had started feeling like the organization had fallen behind and wasn't as relevant. And we had just built a communication and engagement department, and our job was to help communicate the new changes and new strategic direction to really make a difference to those key stakeholders.
And so that was very ambitious because it had never been done before, because they had been so used to doing business the way that they've always done it. It required some rebranding, reinventing the organization, and really modernizing it, and helping to show that it had value to to a newer audience.
And so, rallying the team around that was easy because as a newly formed department, it was our opportunity to show what we could do and the value we could bring to the organization. So, we developed a strategic communication plan, a change communication plan for the organization internally, as well as an external plan that had a lot of different milestones to show people that how we were changing and what value we brought and so it turned out very well.
[00:20:35] Larry Lincoln: We did some surveys after the fact. We had worked with another marketing company that assisted us and we found that the change in positive sentiment over that time from the time we started that campaign had really significantly increased. So, it was really, it turned out well for us.
It proved the value that a strategic communication and engagement approach can have for any organization.
[00:20:58] Tommy Thomas: If I could have sat down with your team, I guess during that or after that, and I asked them two questions, I said, first question. What is the most rewarding thing about working with Larry Lincoln?
What would they say? And then if I said, what's the toughest thing about working with Larry, what would they say?
[00:21:16] Larry Lincoln: I would hope they'd say the most rewarding thing is giving them the room to grow and to do whatever it is that they've been asked to do. I think a key recipe for success is not simply giving people responsibility, but giving them support, the resources, and authority to get done what they need to get done.
And I try to do that. I try to empower folks. I think probably the toughest thing that they'd probably say about me is, and I think I learned this from the military too, is I will ask questions. And if I hear an answer that I don't think was well thought out. I'll continue to ask more and more questions and dig and drill down to the root cause.
And I think sometimes that could be a little uncomfortable, but I think it's necessary so that we can really get to the bottom of what we need to do.
[00:22:04] Tommy Thomas: You've served under a lot of good leaders and certainly currently now are serving in a great organization. As you look back over these leaders including the military people, what's the most defining leadership behavior?
[00:22:18] Larry Lincoln: Oh, being accountable, being open, being transparent. I'll never forget. I was at one ministry in particular, that focused on senior leaders in the business world, CEOs. And this one CEO in particular told me, he gave me this story about how he was faced with some layoffs at a plant, I believe it was back in the Northeast.
And he was the CEO, and he could have sent his senior HR folks to do that. But first of all, he felt that he needed to own it. So, this guy got on a train and went to that business location and personally met with every individual and thanked them for their service while he was giving them their severance packages, things like that.
Whatever you must do eventually – Do it now!
He owned it. But he also told me, he said, that whatever you've got to do eventually, do it now. And so that type of behavior was very much appreciated. He stepped into the problem, he owned it, he didn't delegate it to somebody else, the tough stuff. I have a tremendous amount of admiration for leaders who own that and realize it, and step up, and don't shirk or shy away from the moment.
A leader must be willing to lean into the tough times and own them.
[00:23:26] Larry Lincoln: There are a lot of tough calls in leadership, you know that. But I think as leaders, we've got to be willing to lean into the tough times and also to own it. And so that's a really good leadership example that I've seen. And then other leaders who give you the opportunity to grow and aren't afraid to be challenged and ask questions, things like that.
[00:23:50] Tommy Thomas: What is the most dangerous behavior that you've seen to derail some leader’s careers?
[00:23:56] Larry Lincoln: Personally, I think I've seen some who want to be the smartest person in the room and don't want to take advice. And I think the perfect example of leadership is servant leadership. We're humble. We're placed in positions not because of how special we are, but because that's where we've been assigned at that moment in time.
That's by the grace of God. And so leadership is something to be held and cherished and to nurture and not to be taken too seriously, in my opinion. And so I think sometimes the traps and leadership can be that we think that we've got it, we'll make the decision and we may tune out some really good advice because we think we may know better, I think being flexible, being adaptable, being open to feedback, and sometimes even criticism is the way to go because you want to surround yourself with wise counsel.
[00:24:45] Larry Lincoln: And maybe not listening to that wise counsel. Having said that, if I may say for a moment, you were talking about communications thing. And that's 1 of the things I think that in leading communication and having the place of communication in any large organization, sometimes leaders make the mistake.
I've seen it in the past of not listening necessarily to their communications folks. Not really involving them early in the process more so like a break-the-glass moment when something goes badly. If you involve the communicators early in the process, they can help develop a really good operating and communications plan.
[00:25:26] Larry Lincoln: And then in the Bible, I think it's in Matthew, we talk about where a prophet has no honor in his own country. Sometimes the same holds true for folks inside the organization, not listening to them and being more prone to listen to consultants and things who may come in, but when there are people who are close by who know the operation inside and out and are closer to it.
[00:25:51] Tommy Thomas: I was on the phone earlier today with a guy from the Barna organization. And we were talking about generational differences. We have a podcast coming up on that topic. And have you noticed any as it relates to communications, how you communicate with different generations in the workforce?
[00:26:08] Larry Lincoln: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think paying close attention to those differences will help you understand because one size does not fit all just like one size does not fit all for separate audiences that you want to communicate with. You have to understand that the internal force represents an audience as well.
There are different people that are in different stages of their lives. They come in with different opinions, different wants, and desires. And I think it's helpful to understand how best to motivate and lead them. You have to know those differences and know how people want information presented to them, how they want tasks assigned, how they want opportunities to grow, and it's going to be different along generational lines.
[00:26:51] Larry Lincoln: Some people will need more instruction and more by the book. Some people just say, give me a problem, and let me figure it out. And you've got to be willing and comfortable with that because that's how you can get the best out of the different generations working together and playing on their strengths.
+++++++++++++++++=
[00:27:10] Tommy Thomas: I'd like you to respond to a few quotes here. The first one, Ross Hoskins of, I forget the ministry, he leads some down in South Florida says “Surround yourself with people who know you better than you know yourself and will tell you the truth out of love. This is how we grow.”
[00:27:30] Larry Lincoln: I agree. 100%. I think that goes back to what I said a few moments ago. We all have blind spots. We all have weak spots. And those people that you trust, that know you well, can speak into your life and pull you aside and say, hey, I think you might have got this a little wrong.
[00:27:47] Larry Lincoln: You have to be willing to take that feedback, because they're speaking in love. People who love you and know you are going to be able to have that open dialogue with you and you benefit you only grow from that. And yes, I would definitely want to surround myself and I try to do that with people who know me well, and I can go to in a tough time and say, hey, what do you think?
And sometimes I don't like what they say, but I accept what they say, because I know that they've got the right spirit, the right heart. And they're going to tell me exactly what I need to hear at that moment in time.
[00:28:20] Tommy Thomas: Here’s one back to our topic of communications from Peter Drucker. “The most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said”.
[00:28:30] Larry Lincoln: Yeah, most communication takes place on the nonverbal plane. I think studies show it's an alarming percent, probably more so like 67% I think it is, of communication is nonverbal. And so that's very clear. It's very true. That's one thing, for instance, when we're doing media training that comes out, that's one of the places that it really comes out.
[00:28:52] Larry Lincoln: If you're media training someone, there are certain nonverbals that will contradict what you're saying. And so, you have to be very keen and understand that for instance, if someone's asking a question that you don't agree with and you're nodding your head, yes, but you're thinking, no, what's going to be communicated is the action.
[00:29:11] Larry Lincoln: Yeah, that's very true. And another important thing about communication, I'll go a little bit further than Drucker's quote is assuming that it's actually taking place is a two-way street. And communication doesn't really take place until someone takes an action based on the information or message that you've shared.
[00:29:30] Tommy Thomas: One from Booker T. Washington, “Success is to be measured not so much by the position one is reached in life as by the obstacles he has overcome”.
[00:29:40] Larry Lincoln: Yes, I would agree with that as well. I think when you look back to my own personal story, humbly, like I said, it all comes back to that three-year-old kid who was sent to live with grandparents.
When I look back, my wife and I were talking one day and I said, I felt like I could be doing so much more. This was a time when I was just sitting around and thinking about things that I wish I'd done or wanted to do. And she said, oh no, she said, look at and think about where you've come from. Think about where you started and think about some of the things that you've had to overcome.
That's the success. The success comes in the journey, not the position that you end up in, but what you've had to overcome. And by the grace of God alone, there are many things that I can look back and call them successful simply by enduring.
[00:30:28] Tommy Thomas: This quote from Dr. King probably parallels that. “The ultimate measure of a person is not where they stand in moments of convenience, but where they stand in moments of challenge, moments of great crisis and controversy.”
[00:30:42] Larry Lincoln: I think that echoes something that my grandma used to tell me. She would always say that you can tell what's in a person and how they respond to when things are going badly. Everybody can respond well to good times. But what do you show forth when you're going through the tough times?
What's inside of you is going to come out. And so if we have something that shows forth in us it should be the love of Christ. It should be that character that's imbued within us from having a walk with him. And so, understanding that's what should come forth in times of crisis and in times of difficulty, it doesn't mean that we enjoy them, but we know that we can get through the other side.
[00:31:22] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from General George Patton. “Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity”.
[00:31:32] Larry Lincoln: Amen. That goes back to the example of the different generations. I've always believed that, and I think that's something that was echoed and taught to me early on.
That's one thing that I've tried to model is not trying to tell folks what to do or how to do it, rather give them a problem that needs to be solved and they will surprise you with their talent and ingenuity. People don't want to be micromanaged. People don't want you looking over their shoulder.
They want to be given the freedom to grow and to express themselves. And so I believe in that as well, giving people an opportunity and encouraging them along the way. Really speaking life into that situation, they will surprise you. They'll probably come up with a better solution.
And then when, especially in a group setting, all of us are so much better than just one of us. Think about all the different experiences, and the different talents that we bring to a group situation, and think about all the different options. So you have to be willing to encourage that and listen and put the best of us forth.
[00:32:32] Larry Lincoln: So yeah, I think that's a great quote.
[00:32:35] Tommy Thomas: This is a kind of a funny one, but I think it has a lot of truth. “The only person who likes change is a baby with a wet diaper”.
[00:32:47] Larry Lincoln: That's a good one. I've never heard that one. I think you're right. I think change is hard. We get comfortable situations. People hate change. And I think sometimes organizations resist change.
[00:32:59] Larry Lincoln: We've all seen organizations who will hire consultants to come in and give us their best guess and we'll get a binder and it'll sit on that desk somewhere in order to gather dust because nobody really wants to put the energy and into change. But change is necessary. Change happens all the time and every situation is changing around us.
[00:33:19] Larry Lincoln: I find that it's best to embrace change. It's best to look for change. Not just change for change's sake but realizing that the landscape can never be constant. It's not going to stay the same. So, if we can anticipate change and then use it to our advantage, I think it doesn't have to be dreaded.
[00:33:37] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, staying with change for a minute and thinking of technology and your profession, what technological advancement has, impacted the field of communications, either for better or for worse?
[00:33:50] Larry Lincoln: It's happening right now with AI. The advances in AI are staggering. There's a tremendous opportunity, but there's also tremendous risk.
One of the things for communicators is developing ethics on how AI is used because there are some downfalls with regards to bias with things like that, because it encompasses a lot of existing knowledge. It's not necessarily creating knowledge. It's synthesizing, and then it's learning.
[00:34:19] Larry Lincoln: And the information that's come before, there has to be an ethical framework in how we use it. That is probably the largest challenge, the biggest, most significant challenge that communicators have, is the use of AI. You look around us right now, we're seeing examples of deepfakes, things like that, that are popping up.
And those things, especially when you're using them in a social media context, it's hard to tell the difference. And so, it can have the ability to change perceptions of right and wrong. Communicators and corporations must understand AI. They must understand the ethical challenges and must develop frameworks and how we're going to use the tool.
[00:34:59] Larry Lincoln: It's like any other tool that can be used correctly, and it can be used incorrectly.
[00:35:04] Tommy Thomas: AI, I guess we referenced a little bit earlier that corporate CEOs shouldn't be afraid of social media because it's here to stay. I think the AI piece is already out of the genie's bottle.
[00:35:18] Larry Lincoln: I will tell you that is correct, but there are those that are doing things about it. For instance, the Public Relations Society of America, an organization that I belonged to for many years, recently came out with an ethical guideline for AI for public relations practitioners, and it closely aligns with their ethics guidelines.
[00:35:38] Larry Lincoln: You can't put your head in the sand. You do have to realize that it's here to stay, but you have to, again, we talked earlier in our conversation about the crisis situation. You're either entering into one, you're in one, or you're exiting one. So, if you take that approach and look ahead each company, each organization should be leaning forward into how AI may impact them and how they want to use it.
[00:36:03] Tommy Thomas: Let me ask you a couple of closing questions. And this first one, I take from Alan Alda in his podcast, Clear and Vivid, one of his closing questions is, if you were sitting at a dinner party next to a person that you didn't know, how would you engage them in a meaningful conversation?
[00:36:22] Larry Lincoln: I think that there are things that everybody resonates with. You talk about their childhood, where they're from, tell me a little bit about what interests you, what brought you here. But I think there are opportunities in our world to find things that we have in common.
There are so many things out there that are being evidenced as differences to drive people apart, but there are basic things that bring people together, and I think trying to find those conversational topics about what brings people together. Tell me about your kids. Tell me about your family.
[00:36:54] Larry Lincoln: Tell me about your hobbies. What do you enjoy? How do you spend a Saturday? And everybody has a different answer, but those are topics that create a natural flow and conversation. And I think after that you start to realize that we're much more alike than we understand, and we even realize.
Because we all have things that are so important to us, family things, hobbies, down times, those are the things that I would probably start discussing to try and get a better understanding of that individual next to me.
[00:37:23] Tommy Thomas: If you could tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would it be?
[00:37:27] Larry Lincoln: Oh, wow. One thing I think I'd have a lot to tell my younger self. I think I would probably tell myself not to take myself too seriously. When you're much younger, you have goals, and you have things and sometimes you can be laser-focused to your detriment and not really take the time to enjoy life.
It's a journey. And as you look back over the years, nobody's really going to remember how many hours you spent at work. They're going to remember the quality relationships that you built, the time spent with family. So, focus more on those things and the rest will come.
[00:38:03] Tommy Thomas: This has been fun, Larry. I've always valued your friendship and I just was so glad when we were able to get together and get this on the calendar. So, thank you so much for taking some time with us today and just wish you the best there at Compassion.
[00:38:19] Larry Lincoln: Thank you so much, Tommy. We appreciate you. I appreciate your friendship and what you do as well. And so again, thank you for the opportunity.
[00:38:28] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
[00:38:52] Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
[00:39:16] Tommy Thomas: If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: Our guests today are Burt Rosen and Liz Galloway. Burt's the former CEO of the Knox Area Rescue Ministries, or KARM as it's known in the area.
[00:00:09] Tommy Thomas: And Liz is the Senior Director of Food Services. Burt was a guest, gosh, back in year one at Thanksgiving, I think, probably around episode 10 or 15. I have used this Shark Tank question a lot in my questions of people. And a few episodes back, we highlighted some of the responses and he called back and said, we actually did a Shark Tank thing at KARM.
[00:00:35] Tommy Thomas: And I thought now that it would be great to have something that was real-time on the podcast. Burt and Liz, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:00:44] Burt Rosen: Thank you, Tommy. Good to be here.
[00:00:46] Liz Galloway: Thank you.
[00:00:47] Tommy Thomas: So Burt or Liz, I'm going to turn it over to y'all, but how did this thing get started?
[00:00:53] Burt Rosen: Let me take the lead there Tommy, and then Liz will chime in where it makes sense. So let me take a step back. Before coming to KARM, I spent 17 years with Prison Fellowship Ministries. And when I joined KARM, I brought with me this desire to always want to innovate.
[00:01:14] Burt Rosen: Always looking for new ideas. And one of the things I learned, not so much from prison fellowship, but from my time in the nonprofit arena in general, particularly in ministries, which is yes, it's a nonprofit, but it seems to be a little bit of a different animal was that there was a reluctance to spend money on innovation.
[00:01:34] Burt Rosen: And a reluctance to spend money on employee training and development. Those always seem to be the things that would go to the back seat. And so, in my early years at KARM, we had more than our share of financial challenges digging out of a hole that the ministry had managed to get itself into. And so, once we got there, fast forward a few years later, we found ourselves in a wonderful position.
[00:02:01] Burt Rosen: God had blessed the work immensely. And so we were now in a position of not only being in the black and staying in the black but having a few extra dollars to look at how we best spend to advance the ministry. And so our board chair, Dan Hurst, you referenced in fact, he and I did that podcast call way back when.
[00:02:23] Burt Rosen: We talked about wouldn't it be great to use some of this money to further enhance ministry opportunities. And that's all Dan needed to say. And now I'll admit that I did a ready-fire aim here. I didn't go back and talk to the senior team and say, hey, wouldn't this be a great idea? I was just off and running.
[00:02:44] Burt Rosen: And so, I remembered that first, I was a Shark Tank fan. Always have been for as long as I've been watching it. I also remembered those days as a kid when I watched the TV show The Millionaire and, I forget his name, the actor. He would come on and he'd say, my name is Michael Anthony.
[00:03:00] Burt Rosen: I represent the late John Beresford Tipton and he goes through his spiel of giving away a million dollars. And I thought, wouldn't it be great if we could marry The Millionaire and Shark Tank and put out to our staff an opportunity to come up with KARM’s next million-dollar idea? And we set aside the funds to be able to fund whatever ideas might come up.
[00:03:28] Burt Rosen: And we'll come to that a little bit later on. But with that, we sent that video out to employees and invited them to participate in something that would go across the ministry because I knew that people like Liz had these great dreams, these great ideas of things they'd love to see happen, but often didn't get the opportunity.
[00:03:50] Burt Rosen: This Shark Tank idea provided that opportunity. And so we put it out and Liz, you can certainly respond because you were on the receiving end of that, that first initial invitation. And then I'll pick it back up Tommy after Liz shares a little bit about what it was like to be on her end during that time.
[00:04:10] Liz Galloway: Yeah, thank you, Burt. You just go through your day-to-day routine when you get into work and you're checking emails and, I remember very clearly that day when, the email came up and it said, KARM's next big idea and it's from Burt, so we open it and we're like, okay what is the next big idea?
[00:04:32] Liz Galloway: So we go through this email and we're reading and it's just, for starters, it's just amazing to have a leadership in place that allows you to dream big dreams outside of the box and got deeper into the email and realize this is real. This is something that Carl and Burt are giving us an opportunity to take our part, our department of the ministry, and take it to the next level.
[00:05:01] Liz Galloway: It was the phrase. So, if you had a million dollars to take your corner of the ministry to the next level, what would you do? And, of course, my first instinct, my first thought was a food truck, right? We feed close to a thousand meals a day here on the corners of 418 North Broadway.
[00:05:22] Liz Galloway: And what can we do to take our ministry into the streets and get into the communities where people might not know? What we offer at KARM and so that's what got the whole food truck idea started just reading that email and just thinking, oh, my gosh, either Burt has lost his mind or this is serious.
[00:05:44] Liz Galloway: It was just a huge blessing to be able to dream that dream. And then as Burt said, through the process find it come to fruition.
[00:05:54] Tommy Thomas: So, you'd been thinking about this food truck on your own?
[00:05:58] Liz Galloway: I have been in the food service industry for a long time Tommy and, food trucks at that time were just becoming such a hot commodity.
[00:06:09] Liz Galloway: They really were. And I love visiting food truck parks. I love seeing, the next big idea, what people are doing, what's fresh, and what's new. And then you think, okay I work for a nonprofit, right? I work in the ministry world. That's not what we do, right?
[00:06:26] Liz Galloway: We're feeding those here at the ministry, those in need. And I won't say I put it on the back burner, it's one of those things that you think about, and it just wasn't a good fit for the time. And so, when that email came through, that was just my first, that knee-jerk reaction, that first, punching the guy, you're like, oh, my gosh, what a great idea.
[00:06:49] Liz Galloway: And so, it was not only just a food truck when you think food truck, obviously, you think for profit, right? You have to make the money to turn the key. But then what are some other opportunities, right? The idea that Burt sent out was how can it further your corner of the ministry?
[00:07:08] Liz Galloway: And how does that tie into the ministry for a nonprofit? And in doing some research through this process that we were allowed to do Shark Tank style. I came to find out that there are other ministries throughout the country that do a similar ministry, but not quite to the extent that I was going to take it.
[00:07:31] Liz Galloway: For profit. Yes. Outreach opportunities as well as culinary training opportunities for our guests here at KARM. It was a truck with three different folds into it.
[00:07:41] Burt Rosen: Tommy, with that it wasn't just lives. So, we put this out and you don't really know what kind of a response you're going to get.
[00:07:50] Burt Rosen: But the response that you just heard from Liz was very similar to the response from other employees as well. Oh, yeah. We're setting aside, money for the next million-dollar idea, the next big idea. And so, it took just a little bit of internal selling. To get this done. And once we put it out there, the ideas that came from other employees, including Liz, were just amazing.
[00:08:18] Burt Rosen: And so in this process, Liz had a very limited time. So we put this all out in October as the year was ending, and they had to be ready. So we had to do our homework and whittle 42 ideas down to the top six and that was very difficult. So we recruited a handful of board members, all whom were very astute and successful business people in their own right.
[00:08:43] Burt Rosen: They were going to be the judges. And so each person, including Liz gave a brief summary of their idea. Not the how, but the what. Here's the idea in a nutshell. Those board members saw the ideas depersonalized. They were randomly numbered so that the board members would look through them. And so, if you could imagine this funneling effect of getting from 42 ideas down to the top six.
[00:09:13] Burt Rosen: Now, what happened was. Every time each person had a two week. I'm sorry. We gave them two weeks to get it on paper and get it in. So we wanted to create this sense of urgency, things moving quickly and not let it fall behind as things can often do. Then we found the next thing that created some buzz. As soon as someone submitted an idea.
[00:09:35] Burt Rosen: They got a nice little thank you with a 50 Amazon gift card just for participating. And for those who decided to collaborate with someone else, because we set no rules. Those who decided to buddy up with another employee got an extra 50 gift card. So, here's your reward just for submitting an idea and being a partner in the ministry.
[00:09:59] Burt Rosen: And now you've collaborated. So that was the next thing that we wanted to do. And Liz would have been the recipient of one of those Amazon gift cards. And Liz, perhaps you can talk a little bit about what was going on and then what you were hearing for other employees who were on the receiving end of those as well.
[00:10:18] Liz Galloway: It definitely caused a buzz throughout the ministry. Like Burt said, there were so many incredible ideas that were submitted over this time, and, as the field started to get shaved down a little bit. It's in each step of the process. We were given a new challenge, right?
[00:10:42] Liz Galloway: We had to budget our idea, right? We had to do a budget for our idea. We had to do letters of intent. For our idea. We're starting a new, a new business, a new venture. And we had to go through each one of those steps as a process throughout this whole time. And it was really fun.
[00:11:04] Liz Galloway: It was fun. It was nerve-wracking as well, but it was a lot of fun to hear the buzz around the ministry and, who's doing what, and just our smaller groups just getting together and collaborating with each other. And it just really became a good feel around the ministry with the competition that we had going on, but we were all cheering for one another for sure.
[00:11:27] Burt Rosen: Yeah, it was so awesome to see that. And a couple of byproducts from all of this. One, each person, including Liz, was assigned a mentor. Now, the people in the ministry who were submitting ideas had different levels of experience. Some have never done a grant in their life, and have never done any fundraising in their life.
[00:11:47] Burt Rosen: And so, each of them was paired up with an internal mentor that they could choose to use at their discretion. So, we were getting some training in the process. We were getting cross-pollination of ideas in the process. And then, as that process made its way forward, the finalists were then told, okay, you're going to have until March 12th.
[00:12:11] Burt Rosen: This would have been March 12th of 2000 and 21. You've got to do the feasibility study. But we also said, okay, set aside an escrow account for each of those people. So each individual was told you will have $3500 to spend at your discretion. So long as it's not illegal, immoral, or fattening, you could spend it any way you wanted to.
[00:12:34] Burt Rosen: You're going to have to account for the funds, but there are no restrictions. You need to travel somewhere? Go travel. Do what you had to do. And one of the reasons that we're talking with Liz is because she was so innovative. She was so creative. And I can remember sitting in the judge's room, because now we're at presentation day, Tommy.
[00:12:56] Burt Rosen: Our entire boardroom, which you have been in, went from its usual setting as a boardroom. We converted the entire thing to a shark tank stage and so if you've seen the show, I'm sure you have the person walking in down the hallways with the music in the background. They stand on their little X on the spot and they say good evening sharks. That's exactly what was happening here. Our panel of judges was set aside just like the Sharks are and there was enough stage space for each person to come in and present their idea.
[00:13:32] Burt Rosen: And so as we got through, they all did amazing work. And it was one of those things where you'd say, this could go in any direction. These ideas are so great, but I would have to say, even though I loved all the ideas, Liz took my heart away and I'll let her tell you what she did, how they got to where they were, and what she actually did the day of the presentation.
[00:13:58] Liz Galloway: Oh my gosh. The nerves and the excitement and everything through the whole process. And it went over several months. And so there were highs and there were lows and there was all the anxious moments. And, finally, the day came to present, Shark Tank style ,and you're just like, okay, here it goes.
[00:14:21] Liz Galloway: It's all or nothing. Jump in with both feet. It is what it is here. Here's the day. So I had actually, through all of my research and development and everything, I'm like, how do you present a food truck idea? I don't have a food truck.
[00:14:35] Liz Galloway: I don't have a truck. Am I going to go in with a presentation or, I need something tangible to get their taste buds going. And so I found what you would call a child's size play food truck made out of cardboard. And so part of the spending that I did was to get this model food truck with our logos on the side with everything. It was the vision for what I had for the food truck. And it was, oh, I don't know, Burt, it was probably two, three feet high by, maybe three or, three or four feet long. So it was a good-sized food truck. And I turned the food truck into a food cart, more or less, and entered the boardroom with my food truck, pushing it along. We had food to serve off of it for the sharks and then started into the presentation about the idea. And we had about 20-25 minutes to present our idea.
[00:15:43] Liz Galloway: The whole time, you're just a bucket of nerves. I knew what I was presenting was something that could change the way food service was seen in the ministry and how it could help others in the community. And that was what my heart was really wrapped around and what I was so excited about presenting this food truck. It was a great feeling to be done once the presentation was over. Burt can tell you I'm not one that likes to get up in front of people and talk, but it was a great feeling to have it done. I was very excited about the next steps to come after.
[00:16:20] Burt Rosen: With that, Tommy you're welcome. I think your listeners will only hear the audio of this. If we were to put up the pictures and the video, because we videoed every single presentation to continue our purpose for training and presentation skills. Liz comes in with Howard, one of her chefs.
[00:16:42] Burt Rosen: They're walking in and you had to simultaneously push the truck and the food tray cart underneath. And then they're going around and placing a food sample in front of each of the six panels six judges on the panel and everybody's tasting. I would dare say she could have gone on to the real shark tank and probably sold this idea. It was that good. And when all was said and done, we got to a place where, what's the idea that's going to be implemented? And the food truck was great because it was not easy. But compared to some of the others, you could say this could be up and running pretty quickly.
[00:17:26] Burt Rosen: And because we had set aside the funds for this and escrow we didn't have the budget limitations. We weren't going to find ourselves in a position where, gee, Liz has come up with this great idea. But guess what, Liz, we're a little short on funds. We're not going to be able to follow through with it.
[00:17:42] Burt Rosen: The day that Liz was told let's go she was off and running. Liz, talk just a little bit about what happened from there and then maybe take us all the way to the day when you took a team of people to go bring the real food truck back to KARM as we all stood underneath the expressway waiting for it to actually pull in.
[00:18:07] Liz Galloway: Just to backtrack, when I found out that I wasn't ultimately, I think Burt had shared with you earlier, Tommy, that ultimately I wasn't the top number one winner. And in that moment when they announced the winner and like we said this process went over several months.
[00:18:28] Liz Galloway: Emotions were high, emotions were low, we were stressed, everything was all over the place. And, at that moment when they announced the winner and I wasn't the winner, I was crushed. I was deflated. And I don't even know, Burt, if I've shared this with you, but I was ready to leave the boardroom.
[00:18:49] Liz Galloway: I wanted to go to my car and just cry, right? Just let it out. It's over with. It's done. And I remember we were leaving the boardroom and Burt tapped on my shoulder and he said, hey, Liz, you got a minute. And I'm like, I just wanted to say no, I need to get out of here. And I said, yeah, and he goes, I need you to stay back for just a minute.
[00:19:11] Liz Galloway: And I'm like, okay. Meanwhile, the board is still, the board members, the sharks are still in the room. And so everyone else had left and, they just sat me down and just said, we just wanted to share with you what a great idea that you have come up with the food truck.
[00:19:30] Liz Galloway: We don't see that it takes a million dollars and we feel like we're ready to go ahead and let you move forward with plans to see this come to life. In a matter of five minutes, I was at the bottom of the barrel and then I was on top of the barrel again with my emotions. And in the next few minutes, literally after leaving the boardroom, you hit the ground running, you get your strappy boots on, and you go you've been given this great opportunity.
[00:19:58] Liz Galloway: So where do you start? And so, I had been talking to and researching with a company out of New Brunswick, New Jersey Vending Trucks Incorporated, and had chosen them to be our builder. And, because it sounded like a great idea to work with someone that's 700 miles away from you while you're building a food truck.
[00:20:20] Liz Galloway: But they were rated highly and I had worked with them through the process and spoken to them and they were a great company to work with. So, during all of this Tommy, there was something else going on - the COVID pandemic - during this whole process of building this food truck.
[00:20:38] Liz Galloway: So, a typical build on a food truck, three months. It took us almost 15 start to finish to get this project done. You can only imagine the string of calls that, this piece of equipment is not available. This piece of equipment is going to be an additional four months if you want that one.
[00:20:59] Liz Galloway: So, it came with its challenges for sure. But we finally got the call that, hey, the truck is ready. Come get your keys. You're ready to roll. So there was a team of us that took off to New Jersey to pick up the truck and to get it back home. The day that we pulled onto their property, the truck was just sitting out front.
[00:21:28] Liz Galloway: It was, you couldn't miss it. And my heart just sank. I was just, beside myself, like, oh, my gosh, I had not. I had seen pictures. I had seen the process. We've done many video calls throughout the process of building. But there it was. It's sitting in front of me. I can touch it, right?
[00:21:52] Liz Galloway: So before the car even got stopped, I'm like, I'm unbuckling. I'm getting out of the car and I'm running to the truck and I'm just like, oh my gosh, there, this is it. This is it. It's been an idea. It's been on paper. It's been, in video calls. But here it is. So, the folks from Vending Trucks came out.
[00:22:12] Liz Galloway: We did a full day's training on the truck and before I could even start anything, I just went in the truck and, for starters, you just thank God for the opportunity that I had to be able to make this idea come to life. It was just such a moment. You just go, oh, my gosh, what?
[00:22:39] Liz Galloway: How many lives can this truck change? How many mouths can this truck feed? And it was just a surreal moment to be in that truck. And I asked, I said, I need five minutes in here by myself. And then we'll start the training. So it was just a wonderful moment and to see the truck driving, driving up to it took us a couple of days to get back.
[00:23:04] Liz Galloway: But once we actually got back to the main campus here at KARM, when we were pulling in at 418 North Broadway the entire staff, the entire team here at KARM was literally lined up on the sidewalks under the bridge, cheering us as we pulled in. It just melted me. It was quite a sight.
[00:23:28] Liz Galloway: It was wonderful.
[00:23:29] Burt Rosen: So I think it melted all of us, Liz. And I can recall being part of that group standing out there that day and we're just like cheering the truck in. We're seeing the fruition of an idea that's resided in Liz's heart for who knows how long that this process that we went through allowed it to get from dream to ideation to implementation.
[00:23:57] Burt Rosen: And in a minute, I'll ask Liz to just share briefly some of what the food truck, they named it and what it's actually doing now as far as ministry is concerned. But before doing that. I don't know how I can describe the feelings for me, because this idea of fostering innovation, not being afraid to fail, and then actually seeing Liz's idea come, and Liz and I have visited a lot of places together as we've talked and dreamed about ideas, but this one was all hers all the way, and so it was an innovative concept, and now you're seeing it come to pass, and I'm reliving that moment just as we're talking about it because it's so special, but all of the ancillary benefits with other employees, the way it fostered further innovation, the way it created cross pollination and training and so on and so forth was what was worthy of replication.
[00:24:58] Burt Rosen: But that's for another time. And maybe as we close, I can say a word or two about that. But let me turn it back over to Liz now so she can share with the listeners what has come out of that dream and maybe just a few sentences or so about the name of the truck and what it's now doing.
[00:25:19] Liz Galloway: The name of the truck was a contest within itself.
[00:25:23] Liz Galloway: Like Burt put the idea out to us as a full staff, I put it out to full staff too. So let's get creative with the name. So you can imagine when there were 75 employees and I probably ended up with almost 150 different names of the truck that people had submitted. We actually went through a name change and we finally landed on Urban Table.
[00:25:49] Liz Galloway: Urban Table, the tagline is, so all may be fed. And that is the true purpose behind the truck. So, all may be fed again if it was for profit. There it is generating money to come back into the ministry to help feed those here at the main campus, or if it is the outreach piece of it, getting into the communities where folks are in need and feeding them as well.
[00:26:13] Liz Galloway: We're feeding their hearts, their minds, their souls and just really being just being the hands and feet in the community where. Where people might not realize what KARM does and what KARM has to offer for their guests in the community.
[00:26:30] Tommy Thomas: We're recording this in February of 24.
[00:26:33] Tommy Thomas: What's the truck doing today?
[00:26:35] Liz Galloway: So yesterday we had our first rollout for this season. And very excited. You look at February and you just think, oh, February is just not good, it's just, it's cold, right? Nobody wants to go to a food truck. But people have been reaching out left and right, trying to get us on the books, and just very excited to see this year coming up.
[00:26:56] Liz Galloway: The first year was a huge learning process. For myself and my staff, right? A food truck has always been an idea, right? It's always been in my head, but when you get it and you learn about this, it's a new business, right? Yeah, it's food service, but it's a totally new business.
[00:27:13] Liz Galloway: So the first year had a lot of learning opportunities for us a lot of challenges. A lot of failures, and a lot of successes. We are back on the road as of yesterday getting the season kicked off and we are excited to work with folks and different organizations and churches, even in the community for events, as well as getting into those communities in need and just loving on people and meeting them where they are and feeding their souls for sure.
[00:27:47] Burt Rosen: It's been a great ministry to watch it unfold and Liz has taken it to where it is now. We hear talk about food deserts.
[00:27:58] Burt Rosen: And so, the truck is going to places where the homeless are living in camps, and no one's being charged for any of that food. So, you have an interesting model where a for-profit piece that can cater for income is offsetting the cost of being able to go to places where people can't afford to pay for their food.
[00:28:18] Burt Rosen: But it's not only a brag on Liz. She has done this in amazing fashion, but it's also a little bit of a brag on the process and the KARM staff. And one of the lessons learned, at least for me, and all of this and I think for others along the way, is that if you can figure out how to tap the hidden treasures that are in the hearts of your employees, you quickly realize it's worth it.
[00:28:46] Burt Rosen: That all the great ideas don't reside in the senior leadership team. They all have ideas as well, but when an organization can mine all of that and commit funds to R&D too often, nonprofits don't have the money set aside to do that, but you either have to grow or, if you're not busy changing, you're busy dying.
[00:29:11] Burt Rosen: Sooner or later, you've got to figure out how to innovate and bring new ideas to the table. So, we were really excited about this and Tommy really excited that you gave us an opportunity to talk about it a little bit today.
[00:29:24] Tommy Thomas: This is just, this is fascinating. This is the first time we've ever done anything like this on the podcast.
[00:29:29] Tommy Thomas: And I just think it's been a great episode. I hope our listeners are taking note and if anybody else has done anything like this please let me know and we might tell your story. But Burt and Liz, so grateful that y'all could come out and join me today. And I'll put a link to this in the show notes and put a link to the, just a great ministry that KARM does in the Tennessee Valley.
[00:29:50] Tommy Thomas: Thank y'all for being my guest today.
[00:29:53] Burt Rosen: Thank you, Tommy. And if I could just in addition to thanks, let you know that there was a lot of behind-the-scenes work on this, a lot of preparation for all the judges, all of which we've kept. And if anyone was ever saying, hey, could you help us replicate that in our organization?
[00:30:10] Burt Rosen: I'd be delighted to do that. You have my contact information, and they could just reach out to me. We've got all the forms, everything we did the whole step of the way.
[00:30:20] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, with your permission, I will share your contact data in the show notes also. So, we'll wrap it up from here, and just good luck and Godspeed on the rest of y'all's activities there.
[00:30:32] Liz Galloway: Yeah, thank you so much, Tommy. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Tommy.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Knox Area Rescue Ministries (KARM)
Liz Galloway – Senior Director of Food Services
KARMs New Food Truck – Urban Table – Serves Knoxville’s Entire Community
Urban Table – so all may be fed
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Contact Burt Rosen for help on how you might use the Shark Tank idea in your nonprofit organization: burt@hopeholdson.org
Follow Burt on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
Tommy Thomas: [00:00:00] My guests today are Michael Marquardt and Bob Tiede. Michael is Professor Emeritus of Human and Organizational Learning at George Washington University, and the author of 27 books on the topics of leadership, global teams, and action learning. Bob Tiede is the CEO of leadingwithquestions.com, a blog followed by people in more than 190 countries.
Tommy Thomas: He also serves on the U.S. leadership development team for Cru and is the author of five books, including Great Leaders Ask Questions. Some of our listeners will remember Bob from earlier episodes when we discussed leader development within Cru. Gentlemen, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
Bob Tiede: Happy to be with you, Tommy.
Tommy Thomas: Talking to the two of you today reminds me of an early experience with Nathan DiGesare, a musician and a videographer in Nashville. Nathan has recorded probably 200 videos for my company, so I've been in his house and his studio on countless occasions, but early in the relationship, we were doing some voiceovers at his house. We finished the work, and I noticed this Steinway Grand Piano sitting in the corner.
So, I strolled over and sat down and did my best rendition of Bridge Over Troubled Water. And then I think I segued into Last Date by Floyd Kramer. Little did I know that Nathan had been trained at Indiana University and was a graduate of the Juilliard School of Music. And I'm not sure if I'd have known that if I'd have been so audacious to sit at his grand piano and play those songs.
So, talking with you guys, yeah, I feel like here I am asking the questions and you two are the master of the great questions. So, this is going to be fun.
Bob Tiede: We're looking forward to it.
Tommy Thomas: How did the two of you get to know each other and begin collaborating?
Michael Marquardt: Bob, I think you can tell that story.
Bob Tiede: I will. In 2006, my wife loves to go to bookstores. She goes all over the bookstore. She knows when she's done, she'll find me still in the leadership section. And what I usually do is try to find two, or three books I've never seen before, find a chair, sit down, and peruse them to see if I'm going to buy one of them.
In 2006, I found this book, the first edition of Leading with Questions by Dr. Michael Marquardt. Perusing only a few pages, I said, this one's going home and it was a page-turner. I had no idea. I love books. I eat books for breakfast. Probably every leadership book I've ever read there's been a morsel in there. I had no idea that this would change my leadership forever. Actually, set me on a new path. I was already on the U.S. leadership development team for Cru. I began to teach out of it. The response was just amazing. Fast forward, to 2012, I start a blog and I'm thinking when I start the blog, I don't want to do just another leadership blog.
I want to because there are so many good ones, I'd be a small fish in a big ocean. So I asked the question, was there a niche of leadership I could blog on? And as soon as I had that question, it was like, Oh, it'd be something with this leading with questions. So I go to WordPress. I've never blogged before and WordPress guides you through. The first thing they ask is what do you want the blog to be called.
In other words, let's search and see if the URL is available. On a lark and I smiled as I did it, I typed in the title of the book, leading with questions, thinking that certainly the author or publisher may have tied it up already, but it was available. And at the cheapest price, like 29 a year, so I grab it.
I'm saying I had a little queasy feeling wondering this guy, this author, Dr. Michael Marquardt, how would he feel when he finds out there's a blog by the same title of his book? So, I decided I’d blog for several months, and get some content. Then I crafted, I thought a very diplomatic email to Dr. Michael Marquardt, sharing that his book had changed my leadership, thanking him for writing it, sharing that I'd start this blog, and might I have his permission to excerpt from his book, we'd include a link to Amazon for purchase, and I sent it off wondering. How will he respond? And within 24 hours, I had the most gracious response giving me carte blanche permission.
Several years later, Dr. Marquardt was doing the second edition and wrote me, asking if I'd do an endorsement and if he could list leadingwithquestions.com as a recommended resource. It's yes! And probably a year after that, we were taking a group to D.C. I reached out to Dr. Michael Marquardt ahead of time, asking if he might be in town, and if would he be willing to speak.
And if he would, I'd buy the second edition for everyone. And then I invited him, could he come an hour early to sign the books? And I did that rather selfishly because It would give me an hour with him and during that time I'm calling him Dr. Marquardt. He quickly says, Bob, it's Mike. Just call me Mike and I said, okay Mike, and we've been friends ever since and about two years ago Bob calls and says, Bob, it's time for a third edition.
Would you be willing to co-author it with me? And I said, oh my goodness. Of course. But Mike, you have a PhD, and you teach at George Washington University. I have a Bachelor's and Mike said, but Bob, your blog has now been out there for 10 years. We need about 30 percent new content in a new edition.
And you've already done the research. Summer of 2022, we worked together for about six weeks. Mike is brilliant. He knew what from the second edition he wanted to delete. There are 10 chapters in the book. I would share with him 10 times as much content as he would need. So, he would have a bunch of things he could pick and choose.
But Mike did the heavy lifting. He knew what he wanted to delete. He knew where he wanted to add. And this has been such a gift for me to be the co-author and I'm so grateful to Mike for the opportunity.
Tommy Thomas: Mike, what'd you think when you got that first email?
Michael Marquardt: I was happy that that someone was interested in adding a blog to the whole history of getting people to use questions and so I was delighted with that, and we've had a great relationship for many years, and as Bob indicated, with all of his blogs with hundreds of people who are leaders around the world, and getting them to talk about what kind of questions they asked, I thought was just, would be just a tremendous addition to the third edition to have all these new people, and so I'm very pleased that the third edition is out.
Bob's a co-author, and we have probably another 15 or 20 leaders with their questions that were not in the first two editions of the book.
7:10:00 Tommy Thomas: Mike, how did you discover this Art of the Great Question? Is there a story there?
Michael Marquardt: There's a story. I became a professor at George Washington University.
In 1994, I had worked globally as a consultant in areas of leadership and organizational change, and team building, and in 1994 I became a professor at George Washington University in their executive doctoral program, so we trained leaders from all over the world, and as a professor, a new professor, you are asked to identify what's the research area of interest for you in which you begin publishing and writing and work with doctoral students.
And my interest was leadership. Great leaders. That was my focus. Who are the great leaders around the world? What makes them great leaders? And over the first several years as a professor, I wrote a number of books and articles on great leaders. And the one thing I discovered is that all great leaders ask great questions.
And they became great leaders by asking great questions. Whether these were people I interviewed, hundreds of people all over the world in my various research efforts I go into an organization, a great organization that was considered one of the tops in its field. And I said, who are the leaders in this company?
And they would identify, two or three individuals and what makes them such good leaders, whether they're hierarchical leaders, CEO, or people within the organization. And inevitably, it always came down to, they ask great questions. And so that kind of moved my area of research to more focus on the qualities of great leaders and particularly the questions they ask.
And so over the past 15, almost close to 20 years that's been my area of keen interest and research. And I do a lot of work in a field called action learning and the primary, right. The element of action learning in a way it solves problems is using questions, but questions is the way that leadership is developed in a way of becoming great leaders. And so, I feel very fortunate that became my area of research as a professor and I met Bob Tiede along the way.
Tommy Thomas: Litigators, journalists, and doctors are all taught to ask questions as part of their training. Why is it that business executives aren't taught that? I'll leave, I'll throw it to both of y’all.
Michael Marquardt: Yeah. I think, lawyers are taught to ask questions, but they never ask a question that they already do not know the answer to. So they are open and great questions. Those are, they're always leading questions. A lawyer is taking a task if he ever asks a question for which he does not know the answer that's poor lawyer, lawyerly.
Doctors are not trained to ask questions. They're very poor at asking questions. Although it's a very important part of their work to do a prognosis and to ask for information about the patient. But many of them are very uncomfortable in asking questions, or they ask the wrong questions, or in an ineffective way, or a discomforting way, etc.
So, I agree that medical doctors could greatly benefit from getting a course and asking questions, but my wife happens to be a medical doctor, and I do not recall that she took any course on how to ask questions. I don't know of any physician or school that does that. But I think you bring up not only lawyers and doctors, but we realize now that every person in life has to ask questions.
Every parent, the better questions parents ask, the better parents they are. The better questions social workers ask, the better social workers they are. The better questions that interviewers or newscasters. So all of life is your status in life your quality and being a leader in that profession is dependent upon the questions.
And we know that the great newscaster Walter Cronkite in the past, they were great at asking questions, not only the words they used, but the comfort, but they all listened carefully too. And because great questions come from listening. Your premise is that doctors and lawyers are important for them to ask questions, but I think what Bob and I have discovered is that every person in every sector, and every profession will be better if they ask questions.
Bob Tiede: Whenever I speak, and I'm privileged to speak many times and love it.
But I always start my talk with a confession. I get up and say, I need to start with a confession. And my confession is that for most of my career, I was a benevolent dictator. Because I thought the job of a leader was to tell staff what to do. The job of a leader was to give direction. And I did not have that paradigm out of evil intent.
It was just, that's what I thought the job of a leader was. I did say benevolent. I grew up in a home where I was taught to say please and thank you. So Tommy, if you'd been on my team, I don't think I ever would have said, Tommy, go do this. It'd been more like, Hey, Tommy, this week we're working on this.
It'd really be great if you could please do this. And when you did it, I would have said, thank you, Tommy, at a staff meeting, Tommy, stand up. You all need to hear what Tommy did. It wasn't until I found that first edition of Mike's book, the first edition of leading with questions and reading that. And it is filled with stories just like the third edition of leaders, literally from around the globe.
And they're using and as I read that first edition, I had only one question. Why hasn't anyone ever shared this paradigm with me before? It immediately made sense. I immediately saw that a leader who leads with questions would be so much more effective. When I'm speaking, another illustration I use is I have a picture of a big canoe with room for 15 participants and they all have oars.
And I asked someone in the audience I said, you're the leader of this group. And as you can see, there are oars for everyone on your team. And you want to get that canoe across the lake as quickly as possible. How many would you like to have row with you? Of course, the answer is all of them. And I say, now, I know that's a silly question, but I'm going somewhere.
And I go to the next slide, and there's a picture of the same team, but now they're gathered around a conference table, and there's an opportunity on the table. And I say, now, listen to this question carefully. If you're a leader like I used to be, who thinks your job is to figure out how to take advantage of the opportunity and then you'll tell them what to do?
How many mental oars are in the water trying to figure out how to take advantage of the opportunity? The answer is one. Only yours. But a leader who leads with questions, who leans forward, perhaps, makes eye contact with the whole team and then says, hey gang, here's this opportunity. What do you all think we might do?
Now, how many mental oars might be in the water? Maybe all of them. And I ask whoever I'm interacting with, what are the chances that you might hear an idea better than anything you were thinking? And they always say hi, yeah, it's not a guarantee, but hearing all those ideas, it's highly probable.
And I say, imagine across the table, it's Sarah. And she shares a brilliant idea, and you're thinking, wow, that's so much better than anything I was thinking. And so you say, Sarah, love your idea. Sarah, would you be willing to lead our team in executing that? And then I say, now, how hard will Sarah work?
A leader who leads with questions can be so much more effective. They're hearing more ideas and now they're empowering and involving their staff in the solution.
It's hard. Whose idea is she executing? Her own. That's just some of the reasons that a leader who leads with questions can be so much more effective. They're hearing more ideas and now they're empowering and involving their staff in the solution. So when it comes to executing, they're executing something that they participated in creating, it works.
15:17 Tommy Thomas: Let's get up to a hundred thousand or so feet and ask the big question, what makes a great question?
Michael Marquardt: There's no single right answer. I think a great question is usually not the very first question that's asked. A great question usually emerges if you're in reflection or interaction with other people.
And you ask the best question you can at that point, and then there's conversation, dialogue, and based upon what you hear, you ask another question. Many of us go through life never experiencing a great question, but if we use the ability to really trust and care about what other people are thinking and saying, ask them questions, and build upon what they say and what you've heard.
I think it's possible to quite normally or regularly have great questions in a problem-setting situation or environment. But great questions generally are those that stretch people. They get you outside the box. They get you looking at things from a different perspective. And that's why all the time, great questions emerge in a group with diverse thinkers.
You have an engineer and a marketing person and a religious minister or whatever. Have a great question merged in that group than if they are all engineers or they're all marketing people. So, you can conditions environments in a group setting as well as within yourself that they can emerge.
And so, we've all had great questions in our life and they've changed our lives, but they've been very infrequent because we don't get asked as many great questions as are available or should be asked in our lives. Bob, you may have some other thoughts.
Bob Tiede: I agree with everything Mike has shared. Something that I've discovered is that some of the best questions are so simple and whenever I'm speaking again, I ask who here would like to learn to lead with questions in 30 seconds.
Every hand goes up. And, of course, I say the reason I'm asking this is I sense from my audience is they'd like to learn to lead with questions, but so many times they imagine they'll have to get a master's degree in questionology. It's a nice idea, it'd be nice to be a brain surgeon, and make that kind of money.
But, there are no courses for brain surgeons in 30 seconds. So, every hand goes up, I invite somebody from the audience to come up and when they come up, I say, I think I selected, John here because he has a photographic memory and whoever I brought up always shakes their head like I don't.
And I say all you have to do is memorize my four favorite questions. And I've got a second hand on my watch and I say, here we go. My first favorite question is, what do you think? Second, what else? Third, what else? Fourth, what else? And I say, do you have them memorized? They always do. I say, share them with us.
And they always successfully do it. And then I say, now, some of you look a little skeptical. Like you can't ask somebody, what do you think? What else? What else? What else? And I say not in that rapid fashion. But first of all, you're going to add a topic to what do you think? What do you think we ought to do about? There's going to be some topic.
And when you ask, they're going to answer. Now I used to look at this like I asked a question, and they answered, that's complete. What I discovered is that people, when they're asked to give opinions and input, they instinctively roll out a safe answer. Their first answer, they're testing the waters. Now [00:19:00] they're doing this instinctively.
But just to see how it's treated. So, Tommy, if I asked you, hey, what do you think about it? And you give me that first answer. I said Tommy, that's stupid. Everyone knows that you're sorry you answered. But when I say, wow, Tommy, that's good. Say more. What else? You relax and you'll give me more and then again, instead of moving on, when you pause, I'm likely to grab a pen and say, Tommy, I've got to take notes.
This is pure gold. Please say more. What else? And what I've discovered is actually on the third and fourth question that I get to their gold nugget, their very best thought. And I realized we've all heard the story of the proverbial gold miner, the guy who mined for gold all his life, looking for the gold vein, never found it, finally quits.
Somebody came along later and discovered the old miner was within six inches of the gold vein when he quit. Now, that's probably just a proverbial story, but I share, if you only ask people, what do you think? Get their first answer and move on. You're a bit like that gold miner. You got close, but it's what else is down there. And I'm not disagreeing with Mike at all. I'm saying another angle on asking a great question is the what else is where you hear more and discover that they've got some incredible things. You just had to help them dig a little to uncover some of those answers that you would not have gotten to if you only said, Hey, what do you think about. Get their first answer and then move on to just another technique to get their brilliance.
Michael Marquardt: I teach people how to ask questions. I have an activity in which they work in pairs, and you ask seven questions. You're allowed seven questions. I give them the first question.
What are you most proud of? And then based on your response, you get six more questions. And I tell the people the question. I said you have the opportunity to change the other person's life. In seven questions, in maybe seven to ten minutes, you can change the other person's life, because if you listen carefully to each question, the response to each of your questions, by the seventh question, you're going to have a question that will cause that other person to see something they never saw before or understand something they'd never considered before.
So, they put very high expectations, and they're amazed how, gee, here's something I never knew. And in 10 minutes, we're the best of friends because great questions always build friendships. This person understood something or made a decision or an understanding that never considered before. Wow! I love that.
Tommy Thomas: Anybody who listens to my podcast with much regularity, they would as some have gently pointed out that the biggest weakness I have is the lack of follow-up questions. So this is convicting at too many levels, but I guess it's good to be convicted by two aces.
I will be more deliberate about that. Changing gears for a minute. Earlier in the week, I was talking with Matt Randerson, the Vice President of Growth and Operations at Barna organization. And we're doing a podcast on generational influences on the nonprofit sector. And so, I guess the question I have is.
Have you observed any differences in the kind of questions you might ask the generations or how you would frame a question between a baby boomer and a Gen X or a millennial?
Michael Marquardt: I have not. No, if you do, I've not noticed it. Of course, ask someone a question, a generation Z responds differently than a millennial or whatever age group, they are. And so, the first question may get a different response, but I think deep down, uh, a great question will have a positive, significant impact on any age person.
Bob Tiede: I totally agree that, as Mike said, the answers, and their response may be different. But what I've discovered is that all people, regardless of their age, love to be listened to. And another thing I've shared from time to time is that when you meet a new person if you do 80 percent of the talking, they most likely will mistrust you.
But if you meet a new person and you let them do 80 percent of the talking. Almost always they will leave that time trusting you and you can think, how is this, we instinctively think if I can only tell them all the great things about myself, they will love me. But when you monopolize the conversation, they tend to think, who is this person?
But when you inquire and ask them questions where they do the talking and you're listening, they feel affirmed. There's a quote I love and that is that being listened to and being loved are so close to each other that for the average person, they cannot distinguish the difference. And it's not that they analyze it, but when somebody is listened to it feels good to them.
It's wow, I like this person who's showing interest. And I think that goes across all generations.
24:51 Tommy Thomas: I know both of you guys work a lot with teams in his book, How You Play the Game, the 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith. David Chadwick, one of his players who played on the Final Four team said the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball, leadership, and society. So y'all work with teams. How has the concept of a team impacted your life?
Michael Marquardt: I think, organizations cannot succeed without teams, successful teams that work together. And unfortunately, most teams are dysfunctional. They're frustrating. People prefer not to be in that group. When they're in the group, they're looking at their phone, or they're cutting off people, or not listening, and so forth.
And if they do participate, they participate to the extent that they can try to control what the group does. I know best what the problem is, and I know best what the strategy is. Most people who work in groups or teams, spend their energy trying to convince other people through statements and expertise and power that this is the problem.
This is a strategy. This is what we should do. Great teams do just the opposite. Members of great teams do just the opposite. So, when I'm a member of a great team, I spend my energy trying to find out what you think. So, Tommy, what do you think? We should do this problem, or what are your experiences?
Where should we be looking? What resources do you recommend? So, I spend my energy asking questions of other members of the group to give their perspectives. We tend, we hear what we ask for, and we reject or filter what we don't ask for. And so what do other members of the group do to me? If I've asked them questions, they say, Mike, what do you think?
And so great teams are composed of individuals who spend their energy asking questions of other people. And that's a team. If you would stop worrying or wondering, did I recommend this? Or am I, do I have the power? You come up with something that no one, it's a team. And so great teams spend their time asking questions rather than making statements.
Bob Tiede: I don't know what I could add to that. That is that is so well stated. They're not adding to it but one of the things I talk about the teams can do is question storming. We hear about brainstorming, but there's question-storming. And in one way to do question storming that's unique is you state here's the opportunity.
Here's the problem. And I need everyone on the team to write down five questions that we should answer in order to know what to do about this. And the reason you have everybody write it down is generally on a team, you have your verbal processors who are the first to jump in, and then you sometimes have your more quiet people.
Okay. It's already been said. I don't think I'll add to it. And you don't get input from them, but by having everybody write down their five questions, you get everybody involved. And then maybe you tell them ahead of time, as soon as everybody has their five, we're going to post them up here. And now the team gets up, looks at all the questions and you can.
Put five check marks, five votes by the questions you think are most important to answer. And then once you've identified those, the leader says, okay, here's the first one. Who here will take responsibility to go find the answer to this? And the second one, the third one, but it's a way of creating a questioning culture that the way to find the best way forward is to ask questions.
And then question storming is an activity, but having everybody write it to begin with is a way to involve some of your staff that might be quieter, who hesitate to give input after the verbal processors have jumped in and shared their thoughts.
29:17 Tommy Thomas: Good work. So, I want to close out with a little lightning round.
I've tried to glean some questions from some of my favorite podcasters. And I listened to Alan Alda's podcast Clear and Vivid a lot. And one of his questions is if you're sitting beside a total stranger at a dinner party. How would you start a meaningful conversation?
Michael Marquardt: As I indicated earlier, a great question to ask anyone is what are you most proud of? What is some great success you've had in life? To give people an opportunity, because that question will reveal many things about the stranger or the partner, because it shows what their values are, what they're proud of.
It makes them feel good to talk about that. It may take a little while to reflect, but that's usually a great question does take some reflection. You don't, it's a great question. Don't respond right away. It's probably not a great question. It's almost a closed question. So, I have found that if I have the courage to do that and great questioners have courage, and that's why a lot of us don't ask questions.
We no longer have, we don't have confidence in ourselves, or we're afraid of asking a tough question or a great question, so that's. That's one I might use. Bob, you might have a few others.
Bob Tiede: Oh that's a brilliant one. I call these kind of questions platinum questions. And we all ask a lot of questions because we don't know the answer and there's nothing wrong with that.
Which way to Walmart here? They know, and I need to know. And nothing wrong with that question, but a platinum question is a question that as they answer, they enjoy answering. It's not a gotcha question. [00:31:00] And they say, I've never thought about this before. And they enjoy answering.
And one of my platinum questions I love to ask is, what would you say are the three to four events that have most shaped who you are today? And then, listening. And I'm sure there's more that in that category and another one, I'd love to hear just your story. And again, listening uh, it's important when you ask these kinds of questions.
To follow with what I call the gift of silence. This isn't, when you ask this question they're not likely to begin talking at three seconds. And research shows the average person only waits three seconds after they ask a question for an answer. And if the other person doesn't answer, they just move on.
But when you ask one of these questions, like Mike's question, keep comfortable eyesight, but give them time to think because it's likely going to take them 10, maybe [00:32:00] even 15 seconds before they start speaking, but then you're going to be the beneficiary of a great story.
Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them one question, who would it be and what would you ask?
Michael Marquardt: I’ll answer that one first.
I thought Bob would say Jesus. If you could have the opportunity of asking Jesus a question, that would be wonderful. I think any of the great religious leaders would be wonderful to ask questions and certainly some political leaders, some scientific leaders. Someone like Elon Musk.
I wouldn’t mind asking him a couple of questions right now. He’s done some amazing things over the last few years so it would depend upon the person, and the type of question I’d ask, because I obviously would ask Jesus a very different question than I would ask Elon Musk or, President Macron from France, or whatever the case may be.
But depending on where they’re from, that’s, because I try to say this person has some unique perspective or background, and I don’t want to ask him a question that someone else could answer as well or better even what’s unique about this person. If I ask that question, I’ll get information I could get from nobody else.
Bob Tiede: Yeah, that’s not thinking that deeply. One of the questions I love to ask any leader that I meet is what are your favorite questions to ask and, learn from them in that way.
Michael Marquardt: The question I often have is, have you ever been asked a great question?
And if so, what was it and why was it a great question? And that again, we all have been asked great questions in our life and it changed their life. Those are great questions, but we don’t recall those questions immediately, or sometimes you have to wait an hour a day. And that was like, I should have answered Tommy that way, but I didn’t think of that.
And I remember when my father asked me or my second-grade teacher or, someone along the line, but all of us have been asked great questions in our life. We don’t maybe remember the question that was asked at the time, but it changed our career or changed our values, what we do, but what changed our lives was a question, not some person saying your dad or something, do this or that.
Generally, all of us changed our lives significantly when we were asked a great question. Oftentimes when I signed my, signed our book, I say, may your life be filled with great questions. Because that’s the greatest gift anyone could give to someone else is to ask that person a great question. So if your life has been filled with great questions, you have had a great life, no doubt about it.
Bob Tiede: Mike’s, what he just shared there reminds me of something. One of my books, I did an author, it says compiled by Bob, is 339 Questions Jesus Asked. I was sure that it was Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John who wrote those, I just compiled them. The thought was, Jesus wanted to see lives changed. But he knew, of course, he knew, he was God.
But he knew that it would be far more powerful instead of saying, Tommy, let me tell you. Tommy, let me ask you. That then causes you to think. And you answered, he knew that your answer to his question had a greater chance of changing you than if him saying, let me tell you. And as I was hearing Mike there, just, share, it’s yeah, asking, it’s questions we’ve been asked that change us.
Because as we were asked those questions, we focused on something that perhaps we, no other way would have focused or thought about, but then we answered, and we then thought it was our idea. And in some ways it was, but it was prompted by that question.
Tommy Thomas: Last question. What do you understand about your life today that you didn’t understand a year ago?
Bob Tiede: Tommy, you do ask great questions.
Michael Marquardt: I’m trying to think how my life has changed over the past year. And I’m retired. So, it doesn’t change as much as others. But, my wife and I had a great trip to Norway a few months ago, and so I think the beauty of Norway and so it’s raised a question.
So I’m much more aware of and ask questions about nature and beauty and it happened to be a knitting cruise under the midnight sun was that and so I think that’s maybe been one area that I have more questions about and am more appreciative of, and I spend being retired, I spend a couple hours every afternoon on our lake by our house and just enjoy the geese and the river and the water and so forth.
Bob Tiede: As I’m reflecting on it again, through Mike’s gift to me, inviting me to be the co-author of the third edition, it was released in April. And it has, again, multiplied my opportunities to speak. It’s a credential that has been a complete gift. Wiley Publishing publishes premier business books.
I think if I knocked on the door all by myself, I might not have gotten in or even been considered, but because Mike had the relationship and they had already said yes, they would love the third edition. I rode along in the back of the car and got to this destination. But that’s probably been just a used change to have another credential that is so well known in the business community and the privilege because of Mike of being a co-author of a Wiley-published book.
Michael Marquardt: May I just share one more thing. I know we’re ending it. A lot of people say I’m not able to ask good questions. I don’t know how to ask great questions. I always say that we’re all blessed at birth to ask great questions, all children from the moment they’re born.
They subconsciously ask great questions that enable them to walk and talk within a couple of years because great questions cause change. And then they, [00:39:00] when they start articulating, start asking questions, the adults around them, discourage them from asking questions. I’m too busy Johnny, or that’s a stupid question or whatever.
Michael Marquardt: From age three to some people for the rest of their lives until they die, they never get comfortable and confident asking questions because of what their parents and teachers have done to discourage questions because it’s the joy of every child, every three-year-old child. They love to ask questions.
They all ask great questions. And then, and so what we try to do and Bob and I are both grandfathers and we consider our most important job in life is to undo the damage that our children do to our grandchildren, because our children do the same thing we did, to encourage questions.
So when we see our grandchildren, we say Grandpa loves questions. You can ask Grandpa any question you want. Because the most important thing I can do for my grandchildren [00:40:00] is to keep that spirit, that love of asking questions alive. When they go into four and five and go into the elementary school.
Bob Tiede: As Mike has shared that thought, it reminds me of one of my granddaughters, Claire, when she was two, I discovered a new way to connect with her.
I would say, Claire, can I ask you a tough question? And that would draw her and she’d come sit on my lap and again, they were not tough questions, but they were fun questions. And then I’d say, now, Claire, it’s your turn to ask Grandpa a tough question. And she would ask me questions and they were like, copycats sitting on a fence.
If there are five copycats and one jumped off, how many are still there? And she would use that one over and over, but we would laugh. She is now a sophomore in high school. She is known by her teachers as the one who asks tough questions. They see her hand, okay. And she’s not trying to get you a question, but they realized, wow, that is a powerful question.
And she hopes now to become an attorney, but just something where, again, as Mike said, from little, we encouraged Claire to ask tough questions and affirmed her for asking questions. And I’m proud of all my grandkids for asking tough questions. Mike said, encouraging them to do some research showed that the average five-year-old asks almost 300 questions a day. The average college graduate only asks about 20. And it’s a sad thing about our educational system that teachers will say to that five-year-old, Johnny, it’s my job to ask the question. It’s your job to answer. And so, they begin to realize school is about answering questions, not about asking.
And where we could develop a skill that would change their lives forever by empowering them to ask questions.
Tommy Thomas: You guys must’ve been looking at my notes because I had one of the questions that I did not ask was if it’s true, if it’s true that leaders are better when they lead with questions, why is it that so few do so I think y’all have I think y’all have given a full a full response to that question. Thanks so much for being a guest today and I will include links to your books in the show notes and encourage people. Mike’s book changed Bob’s life. Take a look at these books and if you’re alone, in the leadership journey I think you’ll be greatly blessed.
So, thanks to everyone for listening today. Thanks, Bob and Mike for being my guests.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Michael Marquardt
Leading with Questions: How Leaders Discover Powerful Answers by Knowing What and How to Ask by Michael J Marquardt & Bob Tiede
Leading with Questions: How Leaders Find the Right Solutions by Knowing What to Ask by Michael J. Marquardt
Now That’s a Great Question by Bob Tiede
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Bob Tiede on LinkedIn
Follow Bob Tiede on Facebook
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] David Gyerston: What motivates her or him to want to be the Chair of the Board? Some Board Chairs are shadow presidents. They really want to run the institution. And other Board Chairs are too disconnected. They want the title but they don't want to have to deal with anything on an ongoing basis. Call me if the place is on fire, but other than that, let's not have a relationship.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:21] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation we began last week with Dr. David Gyerston. In addition to his many other accomplishments, David has been the president of three different universities, Regent University, Asbury University, and Taylor University. Each of these schools were in a different stage of the institutional life cycle when David arrived.
These three experiences have honed his senior leadership skills. Additionally, when one is president of three different universities, one gets a lot of Board Governance experience. That's where our focus will be today.
You mentioned earlier, the board, the CEO-Board Chair relationship. I'm going to segue over into board service because you've probably had as much experience in board service in the nonprofit sector as most of the guests that I've interviewed. And let's just ask a basic question. What is the function or the role of the Board Chair?
The Board Chair serves as the linkage between the President and the Board of Trustees
[00:01:23] David Gyerston: The Board Chair really serves as the linkage between the President and the Board of Trustees. And that relationship is probably one of the most important in terms of successful executive leadership and board governance. And right now, I have several clients where I'm coaching both the new president and the board chair together.
In helping them think through and work through their relationships. It used to be that boards of trustees met a couple of times a year, and they heard a bunch of reports, and if everything was going well, they had a wonderful reunion time, and ate well, and then went home. Now Boardsmanship is 24/7.
And much more is expected of board members and the challenges facing our nonprofit faith-based boards have never been greater. As a result, then the understanding of how the board works with the CEO and the senior leadership team and particularly how that relationship supports that between the board chair and the CEO has never been more important. So in my three university presidencies to this day, my board chairs are still my best friends. Because we became even though technically he represented my boss, we essentially walked this together and became - he was my sounding board to say, I think given the executive parameters that the Board has given me, I have the authority to do such and such, but I just want to bounce that off of you.
Is this something that you think maybe the board should be informed about? Before I actually take the action, or do you think I should seek counsel from the board or a committee of the board before I take this action? Or do you think this is an action that the board itself, even though it hasn't defined that I must report back to them before making this decision?
A lot of times this is stuff that, you build this railroad laying the track in front of the oncoming locomotive. You don't always know if you've got the right track laid out there. And so, I think that relationship of partners together, collaborators together. Too many CEOs see boards as something they have to overcome or manage and that's just the wrong attitude. Boards are there to collaborate with you as the CEO in achieving the mission and holding you accountable and empowering and supporting and enabling you for you to lead in the basic achievement of that mission. And so, I had weekly calls with my board chairs. I recommend that now that every board chair and president touch base at least for half an hour every week, just as an update. And it's more than just operational. It's also spiritual. In terms of mutual support.
[00:04:23] Tommy Thomas: Give me some words and phrases that would describe the ideal board chair. I know it can be situational, but there are probably four or five that you just need, period.
[00:04:33] David Gyerston: As I said earlier, motivation and character are everything for me.
And while there are lots of competencies and capacities you need in a board chair, and I'll mention some of those in a moment, so much of it has to do with, who is the Board Chair? What motivates her or him to want to be the Chair of the Board? And are they motivated for the correct reason?
Some Board Chairs are shadow Presidents. They really want to run the institution. Others are too disconnected. They want the title but none of the responsibilities.
Some Board Chairs are shadow Presidents. They really want to run the institution. And other Board Chairs are too disconnected. They want the title, but they don't want to have to deal with anything on an ongoing basis. Call me if the place is on fire, but other than that, let's not have a relationship.
So there's a relational component anchored to character and motivation that I think is so critical that I think the board chair needs to represent in character, in motivation, in spiritual commitment the highest ideals of the institution that the board basically is guiding and guarding so and then there are other competencies, of course, that are needed.
I think effective communication skills. This person has got to be a transparent communicator and a clear communicator person who can manage conflict and crisis is really important. I'm seeing more and more faith-based boards in division now than they've ever been before. And it's often over social, cultural, and political issues more than missional or organizational issues.
Masks, no masks, vaccine, no vaccines, Trump, no Trump. On and on the list goes. And good board chairs have to be very capable of managing the divisions and the increasing level of conflict that exists and even the best of faith-based boards. I think a person who can encourage the full involvement of every board member.
Some Board members are overly involved, and a Board Chair must be able to reign them in with grace, but firmness.
You have some board members that are overly involved, and a Board Chair needs to be able to reign them in with grace, but with firmness. There are other board members that are wallflowers. They're going to sit and say nothing. And you need the full council, the whole council of the whole counselors so that the board can effectively function.
I think that the competency, particularly in institutional viability, I'm seeing more and more of the importance of board chairs knowing how to read a balance sheet and understand, but also in reading that balance sheet, understanding the core deliverables in higher education.
Obviously, it's somebody who understands the very unique nature of colleges and universities. They're not corporations. One of the problems I find with successful corporate leaders who become Board Chairs is that they don't often see that the business of education is very different than the business of producing X number of widgets an hour at a specified cost.
And so understanding the complexity of how higher education operates particularly and the industry, whether that's, a hospital board understanding the nature of hospitals, whether it's a nonprofit social service board, understanding the challenges that the clients are facing, those become competencies and then capacity is really critical.
This is, I hinted at earlier, is not a few hours a year, and this is now multiple hours a month, and depending on the state of crisis, it could easily be 10 hours a week. And I'm working with a couple of boards right now whose executive committee is having to meet three to five hours on average a week because of the strategies and the tragedies that the institution is facing and the dangers the institution is facing. So those are just a checklist of things that, when I'm coaching a new board. As a matter of fact, one of the things I just went through, which was really interesting, is I was hired as a consultant to a board of trustees that wanted me to vet two or three of their board chair candidates and to look at the strengths and weaknesses of each and then help them select the best board member for this moment in the institution's history, because much like we said earlier about executive leadership, what are the big rocks that boy, this board has got to pay attention to right now or the rocks are going to fall on them if they don't move them.
A good Board Chair must create an atmosphere where differing opinions can be heard.
[00:09:08] Tommy Thomas: Respond to this quote, “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.”
[00:09:21] David Gyerston: Yeah, I think you always want to create, and this is the role of the Board Chair, a context where differing opinions can be respectfully heard.
And that people can be encouraged to have differences of opinion. There are some personalities that enjoy thinking otherwise all the time. And they're always going to be the gadfly, and that's their sense of personal mission and on the boards where I have served and on, on the boards that have supervised me, there have been on occasion a board member or two who felt their primary mission was to stick a pin in every balloon, and so you've got to find a balance there.
You want people with differing points of view, and that means that how you build a board in terms of its diversity - diversity in culture, diversity in racial identification, men and women, different professions, most good board practices now have board profiles, where they've identified the 20 most strategic skill sets in industry that they feel they need on the board to staff committees effectively, but also to bring those varying perspectives from their industries to what I think are important.
I'm always hesitant to suggest that we recruit a board member whose primary mission is to be the gadfly. But I do think you create a context in which even if a board agrees 90% of the time and 95% of them agree 90% of the time the 5% feel free because again, they're there. I like Scott Rodin's idea that board members are stewards of the mission and they're there under divine appointment.
And so if they've got a caution or a hesitation, I'll give you a quick illustration. I had a situation where one board member just felt that a decision was not correct, but he didn't want to be the gadfly. And so out of respect for the majority who thought it was, he did not share his opinion. Two years later, it turned out that the majority of opinion of the board cost that board over 20 million dollars of unnecessary expense, and the very thing that board member felt a twinge in his spirit about was the cause that resulted in that $20 million loss. And he is now kicking himself that he did not speak up sooner and raise the concern it wasn't that he felt he couldn't it was just he felt like he didn't want to be the bother, the guy throwing the wet blanket on what everybody else was so enthusiastic about and so creating a context where people genuinely are prayerfully trying to discern what's the right decision and then having a context where if they deeply feel and are motivated correctly for expressing what they deeply feel, not just to be heard because that's their role but really feel the prompting and the twinge of the spirit in our faith-based settings. The chair then and the president both are responsible for ensuring that all hearts are clear. I love that phrase. Are all hearts clear? And if they aren't, then let's stop before we make the decision and find out why your heart, Dave or Joan, isn't clear.
And is it something that we need to delay decision on, something we need more information on, or is it just something that fundamentally it's a disagreement that doesn't really have at its heart the danger to the mission that we then move forward and say Dave, appreciate your position on this but as a majority, we think this is the right way to go and as a good board member in those situations, I would say all right, I support that because again, one of the basic principles is that you don't go out of a board meeting and not support the whole the decision of the board, even though you may have disagreed with it.
And you always want to be able to have your heart clear that you've been heard. Even if you haven't been agreed with.
[00:13:54] Tommy Thomas: You and I are old enough to remember Enron and for those that aren't, all they have to do is read the paper recently and see about the bank failures in Northern California.
And although these organizations aren't nonprofits I'm sure there are lessons we can learn. One guy did some writing after Enron, and he said that the board was just guilty of not asking hard questions. Which they didn't. They didn't dig deep into the finances. How does a board ensure themselves that they've got people asking the questions, and people are comfortable asking the questions, which goes to your last few comments.
[00:14:35] David Gyerston: Yeah I think, again, in terms of best practices, there are elements of information that every board should be looking at routinely. And so those get identified and then the administration is expected to provide those reports and that information honestly, fully, and transparently. I think that's really critical.
The Board needs to know what information it needs in order to ensure that they're fulfilling their legal fiduciary and moral obligations to the people the organization serves.
And so, the Board needs to know and figure out what information does it need in order to ensure that they're fulfilling their legal fiduciary. And moral obligations to the people the organization serves and then, the boards tend to ask how to questions more than why to questions, often there were looking at how are we doing?
Is it efficient? The effective side of it often is not as much focused on in terms of probing and questioning, and it's back to, when an organization puts out a mission statement, that's a promise. And by the way, there's been a lot of litigation now by beneficiaries of the institution feeling that the promise was not delivered on.
And again, as we said earlier, with faith-based and non-profits, it's hard to actually measure the effectiveness of the delivery of promises. But I think the board should be always asking with every decision, why are we doing this? And how are we sure that this is basically delivering on the promises we've made to our donors, our students, our clients our constituencies that are out there?
And so, a lot of times it takes a great deal of energy. And the good news is that there are a lot of great organizations doing this very well. And the danger I find with a lot of nonprofits is they're very siloed. They think, nobody else is like us. The reality is 90% of other organizations are just like you and there's something you can learn from them in terms of getting out with best practices.
And so again, one of the things I do in coaching new presidents and new board chairs is to connect them to some other presidents and board chairs that they could be a part of in terms of a list, sharing together from time to time, identify about 10 organizations similar to you get to know their CEO and their board chair and bounce ideas off of each other and see who else has wrestled with this and how they've wrestled with it.
A lot of times you'll find out what you should not do, but I think, again, getting accurate information and knowing what information to ask for becomes one of the biggest challenges of being an effective board in these settings.
++++++++++++++++=
[00:17:30] Tommy Thomas: One of your colleagues, Dr. Sandra Gray, whom I interviewed very early in my podcast, we were talking about risk management, and one of her thoughts was that probably nonprofit boards didn't pay enough attention to risk management. Any thoughts that you have there?
[00:17:46] David Gyerston: Yeah I think that we sometimes, because of the spiritual nature of what we do we know God is in control and God historically has bailed us out in the past that we've not paid as much attention to what are the emerging threats and risks that the institution is facing in this day and age.
And so much of the emerging risks right now have to do with personnel-related issues. And government delineations of personnel and the LGBTQ agendas, the Title IX agendas a lot of things like that are finding more and more, I think students and parents in higher education are more likely to litigate over disciplinary issues over other things that they view as a threat.
Typically, most of us, most of our organizations are insured and good insurance companies will come in and do a risk mitigation assessment before they actually issue you a policy. Because if you've got a lot of broken sidewalks and railings that are ready to fall off of buildings obviously they're going to want those fixed.
So we're used to risk management in those areas. But right now, it's missional risk management. What are the things that are likely going to cause us to not be able to continue to deliver on our mission? I'm working with one university that took a position a few years ago as it related to the broadening of Title IX to include sexual orientation as a protected category in that state, who said, if that is what is required of us, we'll close the institution and move to a different state.
And I think risk mitigation has to move to that missional centric. What are the things that, if something changes, would make it very difficult and perhaps impossible for us to maintain integrity with our mission, to be Christ-centered, and biblically anchored in all that we do, and if we're required by the government, local, state, national, to compromise on those, at what point do we compromise?
And we've got a lot of our Christian colleges and universities right now, Tommy, as you know well, that are right in the middle of that kind of decision-making. And they didn't in advance anticipate that they would ever get to the point where they could lose their 501c3 status. Because they didn't let people, faculty members switch gender or something like that.
And I think risk management has to be more concentrated on missional risk as opposed to operational risk, which is where we've been in the past.
[00:20:41] Tommy Thomas: I recently heard a nonprofit CEO say when they want you to stay is the best time to leave. When should a board or a CEO begin to address succession planning?
The day the new CEO is hired is the time you put a succession plan in place. Because if you decide to do something two or three years into the CEO's tenure, that can be a real threat.
[00:20:54] David Gyerston: I think the day the new CEO is hired is the time you put a succession plan in place. Because if you decide to do something two or three years into the CEO's tenure, that can be a real threat. What's the board trying to tell me? One of the areas that I work on is board policy manual reviews and assessments.
And one of the things that I look at right up front has to do with whether there is a succession plan. And so that's done independent of the current leadership. And how is succession going to occur? In these kinds of situations, you have a planned succession, or you've got somebody who's going to retire in two years, or somebody who has decided they want to leave the CEO role and step into a different vocational calling at that point.
There's a specific way you go about doing that, and other times there are unplanned succession realities where the CEO is incapacitated and they haven't had a plan in place to say, should our CEO be unable to serve? How do we manage and handle that? And then there are the most difficult, which are the ones when a CEO has to be immediately dismissed for incompetency or immorality or some other egregious situation. And succession planning basically falls into three big categories in terms of how you do that particular planning, for a CEO, when is it time for a CEO to start thinking about maybe it's time to move on? And, I've done that probably more than I should have in my career.
Some of it was for legitimate reasons, some less than legitimate. Because of my own personal struggles and issues, but I think that when you wake up in the morning and you're no longer excited by the challenge, the mission doesn't burn in your bones anymore. And if that feeling persists over several weeks, then it may be time as we say in Charismatic and Pentecostal settings, maybe the anointing has lifted, and it's time to think seriously about moving on to something else.
Boards essentially, if they're doing a regular annual evaluation should be identifying those areas of the CEO's function that are effective and successful and those where improvement is needed. And that helps a board then know, when, because the reality is that institutions at different points in their history need different leadership.
I've been a part of the Coast Guard Auxiliary for several years, and one of the things that I learned in working with the Coast Guard, same with the Navy, is that there are captains for different purposes at different times in a ship's history. There are mission captains when you're at war, there are captains who are skilled at maintaining the fleet.
There are other captains whose specialty is to bring the boat into dry dock and to sound the hulls and refit the thing so it can be ready for mission. And I think a lot of times it's very hard to find a new CEO in this day and age. I know in the searches that you do. Like the ones I've been involved in.
There is no shortage of people who think they can do the job. And so you get a hundred applicants and maybe there are five out of them that maybe have the skill sets that are needed at this moment in the institution's history and need. And so, a board needs to discern, we've had Dave as our president for the last 15 years and it's been wonderful.
But the institution has changed. And the needs of the institution have changed. And the opportunities for the institution have changed and bless your heart, your little heart, Dave, as we say here in the South, bless your little heart you're not changing as quickly as or even should you change who you are in order to accomplish the next season.
And I think that dialogue when it's healthy happens between a board and a president have been a part of a few in the last decade where the board and the president came to a mutual understanding that, yeah, that the institution needed different leadership at this point, so let's plan a transition process and move forward.
[00:25:18] Tommy Thomas: My experience has been that's hard for boards. Most of the searches we do, CEO searches, the board says, find us somebody to be here 15 to 20 years. And I'm saying, I think in our, and I remember, and you knew him well, Dr. Clyde Cook at Biola. Clyde was a 25-year president.
I tell people there probably won't be many more 25-year presidents. There may not be many more 15, nor should they be. I think you have to look at it situationally, and law boards don't want to do that.
[00:25:51] David Gyerston: The most recent statistic, which you may have seen, says that the average university president across all sectors serves 5 - 9 years. So that's the reality.
[00:26:03] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, if they're lucky.
[00:26:04] David Gyerston: Yeah, if they survive the first year. The reality is that institutional succession planning needs to be driven by the emerging needs of the institution. As best as can be defined, because so much of it is unpredictable and undefinable now that you're probably looking at a president for a five-year to 10-year term in faith-based settings would be realistic for most presidents, assuming they have the, and this is one of the keys I know you look for as well, is, can they adapt? Are they able to change? Do they, can they innovate? Can they manage change? Can they manage the conflict of change? And then you can see somebody lasting a little longer.
Barry Corey has been at Biola for 15 years now. Tim Tennant's been at Asbury Theological Seminary for 15, going on 16 years. And each of them has demonstrated the ability to adapt to the changing realities of their institutions. And those are rare birds. As you've suggested, I doubt we're going to see that happening much in the future.
[00:27:14] Tommy Thomas: Let me close with this question, because we see it all the time, and I'm sure you do. The experience of the outgoing CEO sticking around in some sort of an advisory capacity. Can you argue both sides of that?
[00:27:28] David Gyerston: Again, it's institutionally specific. I think one of the things I have found and I don't know what your experience has been at the search process, is that it's hard to get really good candidates when they know the previous CEO is going to be around in some capacity, as a chancellor, often why I see this title being thrown around as a chancellor, he's there basically with the mission to help the new president on board. Often there's the board is worried about, major donors leaving, etc.
And so maybe if they keep the former president around, they can maybe preserve, also they're hedging their bets. Because often if the new president isn't somebody that's already known to them, isn't an internal promotion, then they don't know fully who they're getting. And so sometimes keeping, assuming they want them around, I had that experience at Taylor where they board had decided to keep Dr. Kessler in a Chancellor's role and they were two years trying to find a new president and were unsuccessful because who wanted to follow Jay Kessler. And Jay and I had been friends for years. They came back to me three different times over about an 18-month period and said, Dave, we just would really like you to consider this.
And Nancy and I felt like our work at Asbury was wrapping up and we did give it consideration. But what the board had done is they were very wise, and they said basically the Chancellor serves at the pleasure of the President. And if you want to use him, go ahead and use him any way you want to.
If you don't want to, then he can stay home and we'll pay his Chancellor's stipend to him for the period that we've agreed to. And so Jay and I were able to work it out, in terms of, Jay is an externally focused person. He loves the roar of the crowd, and the smell of the grease paint, and presidents get invited to, a hundred different things a month.
And Jay was my ambassador on my behalf, and he presented himself that way. I'm here on behalf of President Gyerston. One of the dangers is that when the new president has to start making changes, and I did at Taylor, the old president can feel somewhat threatened by that.
And Jay managed those threats extremely well. And particularly when people would do an end run around me, and would go to Jay and say, you know what that Gyerston guy is doing? And it may be something that he maybe wouldn't have agreed with. He always shut them down and sent them. He said, no, Dave's the President.
Very few former Presidents can remain connected to the institution and serve a positive and constructive role.
You go back and talk to him. Jay Kessler is a rare bird. Very few former presidents are able to remain connected to the institution and serve a positive, constructive role. So I normally say that to boards that want to honor the title of President Emeritus, and offerto buy him a home 500 miles away from campus. And what has happened with me, which I've appreciated, is that I have said to the new president coming in, because it was said to me by the outgoing presidents, if you need counsel, I'm available to you. And so Taylor's had three presidents since I left.
Each of them have picked up the phone and called me on occasion, basically to get a historical perspective, not to get my opinion about what they should do, but to get the context of what exists and why it exists so they know better what to propose as a plan to deal with whatever now had emerged.
And so I normally discourage keeping the former CEO around in any official capacity, definitely not have him on the board, definitely not have him reporting to the board. I've seen that happen and that's a disaster because the new president doesn't last more than a couple of years. Because the new president will have to make changes, the old president, now as a board member, or someone reporting directly to the board doesn't agree with and the undermining occurs very quickly.
+++++++++++++++
[00:31:35] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] David Gyerston: So much of this begins with the reality that these presidential roles are too big for any single person to manage. We're always looking for the next Moses or David. And the reality is, there is no Moses or David anymore that can possibly handle everything that needs to be done. So I've stopped thinking about finding presidents and started thinking about teams that can make up the office of the president, which is a different perspective.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:28] Tommy Thomas (2): Our guest today is Dr. David Gyerston. David completed bachelor's level studies in theology at Lauren Park College in Ontario, Canada. Took his BA in Philosophy and Religion and Psychology from Spring Arbor University. He has Masters level studies in College Student Personnel and Sociology from Michigan State. Masters level studies in Comparative Higher Education from the University of Toronto and a Ph.D. in Higher Education Administration and Management from Michigan State University.
All of these degrees were completed by a man who never graduated high school. At least not the way most of us did. In fact, one of his high school guidance counselors told him that he wasn't smart enough to graduate and he should drop out and get a job in the gold mines or the lumberyards. From this inauspicious beginning, David went on to be the President of three different universities. He and I have been friends for at least 20 years, and it's an honor to have him as our guest today.
[00:01:33] Tommy Thomas: Before we take it too deep of a dive into your professional career, take us back to your childhood. What two or three experiences do you remember as having shaped you best?
[00:01:47] David Gyerston: Tommy, I am Canadian. I was born in Toronto, but I was raised in Timmins, which is about a hundred miles south of Hudson's Bay in a gold mining and lumbering community right on the Quebec border.
And childhood was difficult. My dad was an alcoholic, and my mom had some really severe emotional and mental and physical problems. So, I ran away from home when I was 13. And a Free Methodist minister and his wife, who were pastoring a little congregation up there in the Great White North took me in off the streets.
I lived with them for the next five years and had come to faith through their witness and ministry when I was about 14. But still had a lot of trouble. I never graduated high school, and don't have a high school diploma to this day. And one of the most profound experiences I had, other than my conversion experience, under Jim and Marion Tutelage, was my high school guidance counselor calling me in when I was 15 years old and telling me that, these were his words, David, you're just too stupid to be in school.
You need to drop out and get a job in the gold mines or in the lumber yards, which were the two main industries in northern Canada at that time. And so I talked to Jim and Marion about it and they said, no, persist. The guidance counselor was correct. I flunked out in the 12th grade, never finished.
But Jim and Marion felt strongly that God had a plan for my life. I didn't know what it would be, but the Free Methodist denomination had a Bible school and residential high school near Toronto, and Jim and Marion talked them into letting me in for one semester. So, I had to take some high school courses, and then started on the Bachelor of Theology degree, the three-year program, to begin preparing for pastoral ministry.
And that's when I really came alive, not just spiritually, but also intellectually and academically. I really fell in love with the study of scripture and the disciplines of learning. And so those would have been a couple of major turning points for me that shaped me in my childhood.
I had the privilege of leading my dad to the Lord at the Salvation Army drop-in center in Toronto. He was out on the streets. I'd been pastoring in the city for a couple of years and went down to help the Salvation Army at their Harbor Light Mission.
One night when I was preaching, my dad came in off the street, and I didn't know he was there, he didn't know I was there, and when they had the altar service at the end, he came forward. And the captain and I led him to the Lord and the Salvation Army took him in. He was a cook, and so he cooked for their officer's training college there when I was in Toronto.
And with the problem with alcohol, it's a recidivism situation. And he fell off the wagon two or three times, but I believe he made a genuine commitment to the Lord. And then later I also saw my mom come to faith as well. So I was able to be reconciled to both my parents even though they never reconciled together.
I trust that they're reconciled now with Jesus in heaven. Those are a couple of major anchor points for me.
[00:05:14] Tommy Thomas: With that kind of backdrop, walk us through your pilgrimage to the PhD.
[00:05:20] David Gyerston: I went to Lorne Park College, which was the Free Methodist School. Completed two years of the Bachelor of Theology degree when the school went bankrupt and closed.
Those of us in that program had the option of either transferring to Roberts Wesleyan College or Spring Arbor College, and I ended up going to Spring Arbor, with about a dozen others from Lorne Park, and while I was there, I came under the tutelage of Dr. David McKenna. He took an interest in me and began to suggest that perhaps my calling, because I wasn't sure about pastoral ministry, was Christian higher education.
And then when he left and went to be president at Seattle Pacific University Dr. Elwood Voller came from Roberts, interestingly enough, as president, and he picked up that mantle, and so he got me into a master's degree program at Michigan State, where he had previously been Dean of Student Affairs there, earlier in his career, and I finished up. I did a Master's in Sociology, Social Work, and Counseling. Then felt I needed to go back to Canada because I owed some service and went back to pastor a church in Toronto and did a second Master's Degree in Comparative Higher Education at the University of Toronto.
And so I was specializing in comparative higher education, comparing and contrasting the U. S. system of higher education with the Australian system of higher education. And again, not to get in the weeds, but the Australians were the first to really pioneer distance education. And so, they were doing a lot of education over ham radio in the Outback.
It was really interesting to see how they began that distance-distributed education model that was later picked up in the U. S. systems. Then came back to Spring Arbor, working and teaching at the university, and pursued a Ph.D. at Michigan State, which was in administration and management, particularly focused on college and university administration and management.
And then did a special cognate in the field of organizational communication theory and innovation theory. And then graduated with a Ph.D. in that area.
[00:07:43] Tommy Thomas: So, I know you taught along the way, but think back to your first management job when you actually had people reporting to you. What do you remember about that?
[00:07:52] David Gyerston: Woody Voller felt that I needed to get a lot of experience across the various administrative operations. And so, I was in student development, I was in admissions recruitment, and enrollment management. I was in fundraising in the area of writing grants and raising money, alumni relations, and church relations.
In most of those, I only had a secretary reporting to me so my first really significant time of leadership came when I was invited to go to Virginia Beach to help start what was originally CBN University. I was one of the founding team members of Regent University and that grew then and we ended up with a significant number of faculty and staff. Later I was President and had those responsibilities and was invited then after that to become President at Asbury University and went there and led the institution for seven years and then was invited to Taylor University as President and led that institution for five years. And so that was the senior leadership journey went into semi-retirement, went back into teaching in the PhD programs and Doctor of Ministry or Doctor of Strategic Leadership Programs at Regent was in an endowed faculty chair.
Then began my consulting and coaching work with the emerging Christian leaders during that time. I went out to California for a couple of years but one of my clients was struggling with an accreditation issue. So I took over the leadership of that institution to help them through that.
And then we decided to retire back here in Kentucky. At Asbury, and with that known, the president at the seminary asked me to come back and be the founding dean of the Beeson School of Practical Theology. When I was here previously with David McKenna, I'd served with him as his vice president and was on the faculty at the seminary earlier on in my career before I went back to Virginia Beach, and that's too long a story to tell.
But, essentially, we had gotten a $60 million grant from the Beeson family to start the Beeson Center and when Dr. Tennant at the seminary heard I was coming back, he wanted me to come back and revisit that and restructure it. So I was Associate Provost and Dean of the Beeson Center.
And then the school, until just recently, when I finally, I never was going to fully retire, but I finally retired again from getting a paycheck and now I'm working, in the coaching and consulting and doing some teaching on the side.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:10:36] Tommy Thomas: You've been a part of two maybe two quasi-startups.
So I guess the Beeson Center was a startup, and CBN was pretty much a startup. When you think of a startup, in this case, a university or college, what are some things that are different than when you went to Ashbury and Taylor, where you had something that had been around a long time?
[00:10:59] David Gyerston: Yeah, I sequentially, the startup was moving from Spring Arbor to Virginia Beach.
Throughout my career, I've either been involved in start-ups, fix-ups, or ramp-ups and usually, it's three to five years in those various settings.
And in my career path, essentially, I've either been involved in startups, fix-ups, or ramp-ups, have been essentially, and usually it's three to five years in those various settings. And in going to Regent, of course, it was ground zero and starting everything from scratch.
There were three of us on the initial team, an academic leader, a librarian, and myself, for everything else. And of course, it's navigating all of the various governmental and accreditation hoops in order to even start a university, which took us a year, and then trying to decide where we would focus in terms of our curriculum.
Initially, we felt we could have the greatest impact by focusing on graduate-level education at the master's level. Intentionally Christ-centered, we were looking for students who had a call in their life and needed a place to enhance their call. And so, we established what we thought were the six or seven major arenas where if we could find talented, deeply committed Christian men and women and train them well and put them into positions of influence, we perhaps could impact culture the quickest and the fastest.
And so communications, and then education, and then business, and then counseling, then law. All became part of the original plan and within five years, we had all of those programs up and operating with a student body of around seven or eight hundred. Today, Regent has a student body of over ten thousand. It's 11,500 this past year both with an undergraduate and graduate program up through the Ph.D.
[00:12:49] Tommy Thomas: So you've hired a lot of people and you've fired one or two probably. But when you're hiring at the cabinet level, what are you looking for?
[00:12:57] David Gyerston: So much of this begins with the reality that these presidential roles are too big for any single person to manage.
I've been doing a lot of work the last decade or more helping universities in transition, and particularly working with them as they try to figure out who they're going to need to lead them next. And particularly the last three to five years, the complexities have been so intense that it's become clear that there's no single person who can possibly do all that a president's office is responsible for.
So I've stopped thinking about finding presidents and thinking about teams that can make up the office of the president, which is a different perspective. And so you begin with, obviously, the institutional needs. And there are some generalized needs that all institutions have, but there are some immediately pressing needs.
When I am working with a Board on the on-boarding of a new president, one of the questions I am asking is “What are the essential big rocks that the President needs to move in the first 90-120 days on the job?”
That are distinctive and unique to that institution. And so the president needs to be equipped to address those. Often when I'm onboarding new presidents, one of the things I'm working with the Board of Trustees on and the search committee on, are what are the essential big rocks the president needs to move in the first 90 to 120 days.
Or there isn't going to be any institution left. And you've got to deal with the crises at hand. And that then determines, the nature of the president's ability to handle those. And in building a team now, in terms of the office of the president, the C-Suite that will support the President, you begin with what are the institutional needs, the most pressing needs at this moment, what are the skill sets needed to address those pressing needs.
Do they exist in the president, or does the president need to bring around her or him, the team members that can bring the multiple different skill sets needed to address and resolve the Immediate crises and then the long-term needs of the institution? One of the things that we're finding, Tommy, is that the old model, which was the command and control, top-down, the person that went to the mountain and got the direction and came back and said, here's where we're going, that model isn't working anymore.
In most institutions, let alone higher education institutions. And so in the faith-based community, of course, we're always looking for, the next Moses or David. And the reality is, there is no Moses or David anymore that can possibly handle everything that needs to be done. And so, one of the most important skill sets in a new executive leader is can that person understand their strengths and weaknesses, and do they have an orientation toward collaborative decision making and are they able to identify build and support a team then that can bring the various pieces to bear and that means a person that's not threatened by people smarter than them, and more equipped and talented than them.
Usually in the C suite when I've been asked to help presidents identify direct reports, that's the strategy I follow. What are your needs? What are your skill sets, Mr. President, Mrs. President, meeting those needs? And what kind of team members do you need in order to complement and supplement yourself?
And that collaborative model with a person who's very, and this is another dimension, very secure in their sense of calling to the position becomes really important, particularly for faith-based institutions.
[00:16:32] Tommy Thomas: So, let's flip that over then, I know every now and then you've had to release somebody. How is that best done?
[00:16:40] David Gyerston: I don't think there's any off-the-rack suit, and plan to do this. I think, obviously, it begins with a very honest, open and thorough assessment of where the individual is not performing effectively. Not everybody would agree with me on this.
I tend to view a subordinate's dysfunction as my dysfunction. And it's my problem. What is it that I haven't done to ensure that this person is equipped, is empowered, enabled, and is supported to get the job done? It's the old biblical idea. Let's look at the spec - beam in my own eye here before I start looking at the spec in somebody else's.
And then it's a process of being sure that we've thoroughly communicated to the employee, the dysfunctioning employee, what the expectations are a lot of times people are surprised when they're fired because they had no idea what the supervisor was expecting of them because the supervisor had not communicated effectively, and there is now a lot of legal realities around due process and paper trails.
And that's helped us, I think, as leaders, to be more thorough in communicating and documenting areas that need improvement and usually, I like to start with here's where some dysfunctions need to be corrected. Let's work together to figure out how to correct them.
Here are the objectives and the performance measurements we're going to use and then give three to five to six months if that's possible. Sometimes you've got to let somebody go very quickly. If it's a moral failure or a complete incompetence failure, you may have to act more quickly.
But I want to be sure before I fired anyone, that I had thoroughly communicated my expectations, and had laid out a thorough plan for them to be successful. And then after feedback over several weeks, a couple of months, three months, if that still wasn't making them successful, then to work with them to find a respectable and honorable departure and wherever that was possible and we had the financial resources, we always wanted to give people, a landing pad so that they could be assisted in finding their next place of employment.
If a person is just completely incompetent, so much of this is attitude, I think, in bringing up children, often it isn't the behavior that we want to discipline, it's the attitude behind the behavior that we want to focus on and so for me, I'm always looking for is, does this person have a teachable spirit? Is there a sense of humility?
The other thing to take into account is, and I've failed here a couple of times badly, where I left a person in a position too long in terms of hoping that they would course correct and I did damage to their team and their team members were hurt, frustrated several of them in a couple of situations end up just quitting because they felt like nothing was going to change.
And I realized then that I've got to find a balance between giving time for people to perform effectively and recognizing when it's time. I think if there's any mistake I've made in my career, it's that I've not fired fast enough. Because so much grace was given to me, I think I tend to allow that to color my approach to people.
And sometimes there's too much grace when more deliberate immediate action is going to be needed.
++++++++++++++++++++=
[00:20:33] Tommy Thomas: I’ll move over to team leadership for a minute. I want you to think of maybe your best team and then tell me about the most ambitious project you've ever undertaken and how you got the team to come behind you.
[00:20:48] David Gyerston: Again, various opportunities present themselves at various times, some of those are unique opportunities that are positive in nature. We have the opportunity to receive a 50 million grant and we need to figure out how we're going to use that effectively.
There are times when essentially, we're in crisis. And we've got to figure out collaboratively and in unity how we're going to deal with those crises. The one for me, which was most significant, is when I became the president of an institution, I won't name specifically, and walked into a very large building project that had failed miserably and they'd been trying to raise money for two or three years, it was a $25 or $30 million project, which in that institution's case was the largest they'd ever taken on, and they had only raised a couple of million. And so, we had to pull a team together to figure out why wasn't the money coming in? Because I tend to operate on the principle that if God ordered it, then God's going to provide for it.
And if God isn't providing for it, then possibly he didn't order it. And so we went right back to square one on this particular facility. And again, without getting too far in the weeds, went back to a complete reassessment of the actual needs and what the facilities were going to be used for, pulled a massive team together of end users, as well as key people, including prospective donors alumni in that institution. And then relaunched we had to eat about a million dollars of costs on the old plan. But we launched it and within three years or less than three years, we had raised all of the money necessary to build the building debt-free. And so much of that was again, basically getting the right people, involved in the opportunity at the right time and place.
And then giving them the freedom to bring their creativity and inviting them to make it happen. And that institution tended to look to its CEO for all of the decision-making. So, we had a culture change that needed to be made. And initially, people were uncomfortable being invited into a collaborative process.
They were used to being good soldiers. The general issued the orders. And we marched on the hill and took it or didn't take it. This idea of participating in the design and decision-making and process was something that from a cultural vantage point had to be addressed before we could actually be successful.
So I don't know if that gets at what you're thinking about Tommy, but that's just a process I've used.
[00:23:39] Tommy Thomas: Going over to maybe back to general leadership, and we see I guess probably if you've been around as long as you and I have, you've probably seen a lot of leaders fail.
What do you think is the most dangerous behavior or trait that contributes to a leader's derailing her or his career?
[00:24:01] David Gyerston: There are lots of ways to describe this, but I think basically a core sense of humility and understanding what your limitations are. I think most of the triage work I've done with leaders in crisis really comes back to their own understanding of their, or lack of understanding of their weaknesses and limitations.
And so often the failure is the direct result of a blindness to those aspects of their leadership style, their decision-making that essentially, they weren't aware of. And some of this we define broadly in psychological terms as EQ, the ability to read the room accurately, to discern how we're coming across.
A lot of times one of the manifestations of a lack of EQ is a talker rather than the listener kind of orientation, somebody asks a question and answers it for themself. I see that a lot, particularly in Western leadership. I've taught in Singapore, I've taught in South Africa, and there's a very different modality of leadership in those settings.
We in the Western world have this great man, great woman approach. So, the leader of the belief that they have to have the answer for everything and they can never admit that they're not capable of bringing the answer or that they need help in finding the answer. And so that all boils down to a lack of self-awareness which often is manifested in a lack of humility to admit where a leader needs assistance and help.
Sometimes that gets shown particularly in a relationship between a CEO and their board, where the CEO is not completely forthcoming, particularly with difficult news or bad news. And we say in college university administration that the boards of trustees only have one employee, that's the president, right?
And they rely then on the president to provide them with all of the accurate and transparent information they need to make good decisions, and I would say about 75% of the time when I'm invited to help with a leadership crisis, it's been a breakdown in communication between the CEO and the board, and I have a situation where I helped with a senior executive level search where the top three senior executives were fired, and they were shocked they were fired, and the board of trustees was shocked they were shocked.
Because they thought they were communicating effectively to the leadership team and vice versa, and they were just missing each other, so one of the first things we had to do before even beginning the search process for new leadership was to figure out how to help the board become more effective in communicating, but also in asking for the strategic information that was essential to the viability and fidelity of the institution's mission.
A lot of presidents in higher education, basically their reports to the board are designed to prove to the board they've hired the right guy as president. And in reality, the board needs to see some of the difficulties and be presented with reporting that is actionable, that allows them to make their fiduciary decisions with wisdom, etc.
[00:27:36] Tommy Thomas: Yes, it's been said that we learn most from our failures If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:27:44] David Gyerston: Again, I think it's a cultural expectation, particularly for leaders, that they have to be seen as competent and capable and successful. And I remember when I was pastoring in Toronto, pastoring one of our larger congregations in my denomination, and I was a young buck and a little bit too much full of myself.
And I realized that, and one Sunday ended up having to apologize to the congregation for a couple of things that I had said and done. And they weren't moral failures or ethical failures, they were just, unwise things. As I stood at the door and shook hands with the folk as they were leaving, one of my more faithful members said to me, looked at me and she said, Pastor Gyerston, don't you ever do that again.
And I said, what do you mean? And she says, don't you ever get up in front and tell us that you failed. She said, I don't want a pastor who is a failure. And so you've got this incredible sense of pressure that's on leaders that I think so often mitigates against us being transparent enough to admit that we are in need of help. You think of Moses, but he had to have Aaron stand on either side of him to hold up his hands. Aaron was the spiritual support. We think he was more of the operational administrative support person. And so, Moses could not have been successful in praying in that successful battle, had it not been for the fact that he admitted he couldn't hold his hands up until the sun went down.
Unless a leader is willing to admit that he can’t do everything and needs help, the tyranny of failure will be a part of that leader’s administrative style.
And then he needed people on either side of him to be holding up his hands. And so unless a leader is willing to admit they're in need then there's going to be this how is this tyranny of the fear of failure that's going to be a part of that leader's administrative style.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
As David shared, he has been the President of three different universities. You can only imagine the lessons on board governance, both best practices and some not-so-good that he has observed in working with different board chairs and reporting to different boards. Join us next week as we continue this conversation with David Gyerston. Our focus will be Board Governance.
[00:30:13] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Tommy Thomas: Three years ago, I started a tradition on the podcast. I'm interviewing someone from the music industry for the episode being released the week of Christmas. My logic is that most people probably aren't doing much professional development this week. And rather than not have a release, I would default to something that is near and dear to my heart. I started taking piano lessons when I was seven. In high school, I played in a local garage band. In college, I sang folk music, and, in my twenties, I sang with a bluegrass group in Birmingham.
In fact, one of the things on my bucket list is to play a set with the cover group, Jay and the Elders from Birmingham. So, Jim Blackman, if you're listening, I'm waiting on my invitation.
Our guest this week is Dr. David Tolley, the Associate Professor and Director of The Music Industry Program at Delaware State University. David is a very talented composer, arranger, producer, and instructor. I believe you're going to love his story.
[00:01:08] Tommy Thomas: Before we take too deep of a dive into your professional career, take us back into your childhood. What's your happiest memory?
[00:01:17] David Tolley: Happiest memories of childhood. I'm one of eight kids. I'm number seven. And we were born, not really on a farm, but in Dublin, Ohio.
[00:01:25] David Tolley: We had an apple orchard, chicken coop, and things like that, but it wasn't a full fledged farm. But we used to play Cowboys and Indians, hide and go seek. And playing with all my brothers and sisters probably was one of my favorite memories.
[00:01:39] Tommy Thomas: What about the gifts your parents gave you? What's the greatest gift you remember?
[00:01:44] David Tolley: Greatest gift or appearance? Probably the electric football game where you put the players on there and the game vibrates. Yeah. That was that. I had to think about that. I haven't thought about that in a long time yet.
[00:01:56] Tommy Thomas:: Wow. We had one of those that was fun.
[00:01:58] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. And what was high school like?
[00:02:01] David Tolley: I went to Worthington High School, and it was great. I wasn't in the marching band or the choir because I was a pianist, and in junior year, Columbus started a brand-new performing arts school called Fort Hayes, and it was modeled after the one in New York and then one went down into Dallas. So it was experiential Columbus and it's still going, but went there my junior and senior year and half of the day to Worthington. So it was a lot of fun. I started composing for some theater things and other things. And I was valedictorian of the class when I graduated.
But the only regret I have about that is I cut off my social life from my high school friends. Because I went down there at noontime and then was downtown Columbus. And you know how after high school, a lot of people, they have afterschool activities, and I was out of town.
[00:02:56] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. I guess when you enrolled in Ohio State you knew you were into music by then.
[00:03:01] David Tolley Yeah, I played sports, Tommy, and believe it or not, I used to play football and was quarterback and I played basketball and baseball, but I didn't grow to be huge, you know, like 6’ 2”, 6’ 3”. And so it started to hurt in middle school. So I got back into music heavy and I was just practicing all the time and I was lucky to get this pianist, Richard Telly Curtis, and he was head of the piano division at Ohio State and I got him in high school.
I don't know how I got him. But he said he took me because I had a good smile. I don't know. I practiced all the time and that's performing arts school. They just kind of let me go and I would go down to the practice rooms and just practice all my whole time there.
So I entered Ohio State and got a double bachelor's in piano performance and composition, and then got my master's in theory and composition before I moved out to Los Angeles.
[00:03:55] Tommy Thomas: Had you started your PhD before you moved to Los Angeles?
[00:03:58] David Tolley: Yeah, back then we were on the quarter system, so I had the first quarter and then I thought, wow, I'm only 21 or 22, I think. And I'm like, I'm doing my doctorate in music. I got into music to perform and to compose, mostly compose. So I thought, and I talked to my mom and I was playing at a church, Liberty Presbyterian Church, all through college and stuff.
[00:04:22] David Tolley: They didn't want me to go and my mom of course didn't want me to go, but she actually gave me her blessing and packed up my rabbit and moved out to Los Angeles.
[00:04:31] Tommy Thomas: Wow. Yeah, I can see Los Angeles. Back then, Nashville wasn't in the scene. I guess it would've been LA or New York probably your two options. What was the early days like in Los Angeles as a fledgling musician?
[00:04:45] David Tolley: Yeah, it was scary. I tell these stories to my students because they have the itch in them, these young college kids, and I'm like, you know what, if it's really on your heart and you're passionate about it, you gotta try it now because you might be regretful later on.
So I was scared to be honest, and because I only knew one person out there. I took every other thing I had in a VW Rabbit and I went to North Hollywood, and that was the year that they had Richard Ramirez, the Hillside strangler, and then all of the freeway shootings. I was like, what did I do? But after about a year, it settled in and I was fine.
[00:05:25] Tommy Thomas: I'm going to probably not remember the details from how you told it years ago, but as I remember you told me that your brother came out to visit you one Christmas and y'all ended up at the Johnny Carson Show. Can you fill in the details there and tell our viewers a little bit about that?
[00:05:42] David Tolley: Okay. So being one of eight kids, I was number seven, and my youngest brother was number eight.
We pretty much grew up without a dad and so my mom thought, this is David's first Christmas away from home. And Christmas was a big thing, eight kids and the Christmas tree and gifts. So she was very wise and sent my youngest brother out to visit me. And for a week we went to the beach, we went to all these different things. The Hollywood Stars, Beverly Hills houses, went to where the Lakers played and everything. And then he had the idea to go, hey, can we go to The Tonight Show? I don't know how to do that.
[00:06:20] David Tolley: It was like his last day. And so he called up and he said, all you have to do is show up in line in Burbank and wait outside. So, we did after we had gone to the beach all day, and then we walk inside and we got in barely. And we were about three quarters of the way back in the audience. And it was Johnny's last show before he went on Christmas break the next day. And it was a Friday night, I think it was December 19th, 1985. And Johnny comes out with no preparation during the monologue, he said, you know what, you're all in the Christmas spirit, and we have a dilemma tonight.
We scheduled this beautiful nine-foot Steinway piano that we had imported in for the classical pianist, Ori Gutierrez, who won the Van Clyburn Award. And the only thing is, he nipped his fingers because he shut his hand in the car door accidentally. His career's not hurt. But he doesn't feel like playing. And so, we have a dilemma. I'll let you know after the commercial break what we're going to do. And so he comes back, he goes, you know what? We're going to try something we've never done before. Is there anyone in the audience that plays a piano? And so I didn't even know what was going on. My brother raises my hand and before I know it, I have a Nike T-shirt and jeans and flip flops, and I'm playing on a nine foot Steinway for 28 million people.
[00:07:42] Tommy Thomas: Wow. I'm just thinking what was going through Carson's mind. My gosh what a mistake it could have been.
[00:07:49] David Tolley: Yeah, he actually mentioned that. Actually you can see it on YouTube. He says, wow, this could have been a real bomb. And actually, he picked a woman to go first and she played silver bells and she was good. And but he said, just in case she lays a bomb, is there someone else? And that's when he picked me.
[00:08:08] David Tolley: He was pretty amazed of the crowd's reaction.
[00:08:12] David Tolley: He put his hands up the air like, I don't believe this, so it was fun. I didn't know Tommy; I didn't know I was playing for all these people. It was kind of like a dream. I went up there, I was smiling and, back in Ohio, for the church for years, and then I used to play a lot of parties, so I thought, oh, this is fun. I'll just start playing. I didn't know all those 28 million people were watching, so I was winking at the audience. I pretended I had tuxedo on. I was just goofing off. I was a little clowned, but I guess the audience really liked that.
[00:08:45] Tommy Thomas: So everybody can Google I guess David Tally the Tonight Show and you can see the YouTube of this. So what did you play? How did you think about it, or did you just go up and just start playing?
[00:08:58] David Tolley: I must've been on autopilot because I barely remember the show. I know it happened, but we only had a minute to think. And so I though, the Cats was real popular at the time, the musical, so I said, how about Memories from Cats? He goes, oh, that's great. And I went up and played.
[00:09:17] David Tolley: After I got done, you can see on the video, the audience was just clapping and roaring. And I touched Johnny's hand, oh wow, that worked out. And so yeah, it was fun. Johnny was super nice to me. Both shows. I left and they got my name and number and stuff like that.
And I went with my brother back to my little studio apartment in North Hollywood and he was like, he kept on hitting me in the arm going, did that really happen? Did that really happen? So, it was a great way to end the week with my younger brother and actually my dad's mom, Grace , who I partially dedicated Amazing Grace, my variation, and she had never seen me play the piano and she was 92 at the time.
She lived to be 99. My whole family got to watch it. My grandmother that never saw me play got to see it. So it was neat.
+++++++++++++=
[00:10:12] Tommy Thomas: So, what did you play on your second appearance?
[00:10:15] David Tolley: They called, they had lost my number somehow, so they put a search team out because Johnny came back and Grant Tinker was the CEO of NBC. And he called Johnny the next day. He says, boy, that was great planning that kid on the show. Johnny goes no. I didn't plan it. I just took a chance.
He goes, what? So he said, we have to have him back. We have all these letters and phone calls. We gotta let them know. And so Johnny goes, yeah, that'd be great. So they actually called me and I was in North Hollywood. I answered the phone. I still remember, it was lunchtime. They said, hey we have so many letters and phone calls. We really have to have you back on the show so we can explain to the audience this is really what happened. I actually said no. I said, I'm a composer. I'd be too nervous. He said, yeah, but what you just played on there? I'm like, yeah, I didn't know was going on.
[00:11:07] David Tolley: So they said, let me call you back after lunch. And I still remember, Tommy, I got my little can of Chicken Noodle soup, Campbells, and I cooked it and put it on my spoon. I could not even keep a noodle on my spoon. I was shaking.
So, I had a week to think and I thought, you know what? This is a great opportunity to give glory to God, and do my theme and variations on amazing grace. I wrote it for the church when I left because they had a wide variety of people that some liked pop, some like gospel, some like straight hymnals, some like country, some like jazz. I thought, you know what, it's all music to me as a composer. It's just an attitude of the heart. And so, I did my theme and variations on Amazing Grace as a gift to them. And for my gram Grammy Grace. And so I played that and Johnny, at first they thought, oh, that might be too religious. And actually Johnny said no - let him play what he wants to play. And anyway, so that's what I played.
[00:12:08] Tommy Thomas: Wow. And what was the immediate aftermath of that? Did you see any uptick in any opportunities to record or to write?
[00:12:17] David Tolley: Yeah, I got to see the great side of Hollywood, and the bad side. Because I had like agents, managers, it was so confusing. From a little town, at the time it was a small town, a suburb of Columbus and I didn't know anything about the music business. I had what, three degrees and started my doctorate, but I didn't have one music business course. Nothing about contracts or intellectual property or anything.
[00:12:40] David Tolley: I was very confused and the White House saw it and they said, we would like you to play at Easter time at the White House. I'm like, okay. And I was actually the MC for the Easter Fest. I actually showed up at the White House and they booked a hotel and brought me in. They said, you know what? We know you're playing and performing, but we'd like you to be the MC. And they handed me a script. I'm like, I wish you guys would've told me. But anyway, so a lot of things like that.
I tried out for some movie parts. Madonna and Michael Jackson's manager had a record deal that they were working on, which didn't work because, like I said I saw the good and the bad and a lot of things like that. A lot of projects, some TV and film projects that I did.
[00:13:28] Tommy Thomas: As I remember for a while, weren't you Mayor Bradley's pianist of record for a lot of his parties?
[00:13:36] David Tolley: Oh wow. Yes. Wow. I haven't heard that name in a long time. Yeah I did. Even though I was out there as a composer, I still was a pianist, and I would still play on people's albums. A lot of rock bands that were signed that didn't have people or players. I was a studio musician that would come in and play and in between projects, if it was a cartoon or scoring an anime film or TV show. I did a lot of stuff for ABC, CNBC and CBS. But there are gaps. There are gaps in between projects, so I always kept up my playing. So, I was playing at the Bel Air Country Club for years, and I played, which when you're out in the public Mayor Bradley saw me and I played so many functions for him. And I played Muhammad Ali's birthday party and I'll never forget it. Muhammad came up and his Parkinson's had set in and he came up to the piano during his birthday, and he wrote me a poem. He was shaking and he was always one of my favorite athletes of all time. And then just a lot of parties and things because they're just people that happen to live out there. And since I'm out in the public I did a bunch of parties for Clint Eastwood and I remember one party in Malibu that I was sitting, it was just a cliff with nothing but glass, looking at the ocean. And I'm like, okay, I'm showing up for this birthday party.
So out there and all of a sudden right next to me is Walter Mattau. Right behind me is Gregory Peck, Jack Lemon, Marlon Brando. I'm like, what's going on here? And it was a birthday party for their acting coach, Stella Adler. So it was a party, and I played Hello Dolly for Carol Channing to sing. And my mom would've been in heaven if she would've been there. So yeah, I had a lot of neat experiences like that.
[00:15:29] Tommy Thomas: And then somewhere along the way you got connected with Disney.
[00:15:33] David Tolley: And that actually wasn't a result of the Tonight Show. That was, I forget how many years later, five or six years later. Because all that hype and everything slowed down. My phone was off the hook. I was like, oh boy. Yeah, I didn't know what to do. And I probably made a lot of bad decisions.
[00:15:54] David Tolley: But I finally settled down to be a composer and play in between. And Disney got ahold of one of my first CDs and they were doing a new park in Paris or Euro Disney. And they took the music from Frontier, Leanne? I forget the land shoot. This is terrible. Anyway, tomorrow land and, this is a brand-new park, and they wanted a brand new lands called Discovery Land. And so it had all these explorers and things like Jules Verne and thing themed rights. I was lucky that out of, I don't know, hundreds or thousands of composers that wanted to do the theme music for this land, I got the job. So I did a two hour soundtrack for piano and orchestra. And it still plays. It opened in 1992 and I still see my, it's not great royalties, but it's, yeah, I'm not going to turn them down. Every quarter I see royalties from my music that's playing 18 hours a day.
[00:16:55] Tommy Thomas: So, looking back on the Southern California portion, what's your biggest takeaway?
[00:17:03] David Tolley: That's a good question. Just, probably hang on to God, hang the thick and the thin though it wasn't always great times. There were sometimes it was very thin, and I bought a house in Woodland Hills, started having kids and those were great years and then there was some thin years. But God's grace was with me the whole time, and it's exciting. It's not for everybody. In fact, my younger brother moved out there, a lot of friends moved out there. They saw the hype, and within a year they moved out because it's like a concrete jungle. And you have to love the creativity. That’s what I liked about it. And it's not for everybody.
+++++++++++++=
[00:17:45] Tommy Thomas: What brought you back east and how did you decide it was time to finish that doctorate?
[00:17:52] David Tolley: Good question. So basically, I told my mom when I started my doctorate and when I was making that decision to move out to LA, I'm like, I will finish this. I will finish. I wanted to be a brain surgeon, I ended up going into music. So, I said, Mom, I will be a doctor. And I still remember that conversation. So my wife, we had four kids and we were out in Los Angeles. We had a house, a pool, a studio, and she got cancer. And she was from Ohio too and she had a cancer called MOC Sarcoma, a soft tissue cancer.
[00:18:26] David Tolley: So, it was an extremely hard decision because the kids had all their friends in middle school and stuff like that.
We had a great setup. I was finally out there living, and doing what I love to do, but thought, it's pretty serious stage four cancer. So we moved back to be with her family, my family and the support. She fought it for a good three and a half years and then passed.
[00:18:50] Tommy Thomas: How did you, as someone that's never had that kind of experience, how did you get through that?
[00:18:56] David Tolley: Oh, it was all God. It really was God. And it's funny that, through most of life, at least for me, it's a pretty constant relationship. But in those very trying times, it's almost like you can hear him breathe. I mean it's very real and that's really what kept me going. Prayer, the church and support.
[00:19:18] Tommy Thomas: You finished your doctorate; you became that doctor that you had promised your mom.
[00:19:22] David Tolley: Right.
[00:19:23] Tommy Thomas: So now you're on the faculty at Delaware State. Tell us about that. I guess you commute from Columbus to the campus periodically or regularly.
[00:19:32] David Tolley: You'd think I was a nut, I probably was, but I moved back to LA, finished, and I thought, Mom, I'm not in an entertainment town anymore. I have to think of a living now. So, I finished my doctorate, and I started Ohio State Music Industry Program from textbook stuff and then real live street knowledge that I gained out there.
[00:19:52] David Tolley: The only thing is they started it and everything and built the studios. Boom. And it came time to get the director of the music industry program and I already started the curriculum and everything. They had a new director and I guess they went by the rules. I had one quarter left to go or two and they were doing a search, and they couldn't hire someone unless they had already been an assistant associate, an associate.
They wanted a director and I was just finishing up my doctorate so I couldn't even be on the table. My faculty was furious, but that was a hard blow to me. And I finished up and I thought, you know what? I guess I just gotta keep on looking. I've had four or five job offers. One in New Orleans. One was in the Midwest, like in Indiana. I forget the name of the school. But Delaware State, I could fly there to Baltimore in one hour and commute. You thought, why don't you move the family there? If you remember, I moved the family home to bite the cancer. Because they have a great cancer center at Ohio State. And I did that every Monday into Thursday for 10 years. Every single week. I flew there and then now after Covid. I talked to the Dean, and I was full professor now and with tenure, so I was able to say things like this.
I was like, I can't travel like this anymore. I'm too old. This airport thing, and Covid, so they made me a deal that I come at the beginning, the end and in the middle. And the rest of the time I'm home.
[00:21:31] Tommy Thomas: I do a lot of work in higher ed, and I ask all my higher ed people this question. What was the greatest lesson that you learned through Covid that you think you'll take forward in your career?
[00:21:43] David Tolley: It's being a global world in and with the way broadband is and connections. It took a while to get used to online teaching, and some of my students really like it because they can stay in their apartment or dorm and listen and but sometimes they really miss the one-on-one contact, at least showing them something in the studio or at the piano. But it seems like the tools are getting better and I do all my pro tools and other things. I share my screen, they can hear it, they see it, things like that. But just the question about AI and everything, I still think, that human heart, spirit, that's hard to put into computer code.
[00:22:31] Tommy Thomas: I know you're not a conductor but you probably own the fringes of conducting. I'd like to ask you to respond to this quote from Ben Zander, the Boston Philharmonic. He says, the conductor doesn't make a sound. The conductor's power depends upon his or her ability to make other people powerful.
[00:22:51] David Tolley: Wow, that's a great quote. Yeah, there are great conductors and then there are beginning conductors and even at the bus in Symphony Hall when I saw Beethoven's ninth, it's amazing. There are great leaders. They're going through the same gestures of downbeats and expressiveness of dynamics and things like that, but they have such a charismatic power that kind of pulls energy out of the orchestra that they go to new heights that other people can't do.
+++++++++++++++
[00:23:29] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. So I'd like to close out with a lightning round of questions. These are generally short answers, but sometimes not. Yeah.
[00:23:38] David Tolley: Okay, I'll keep it short.
[00:23:39] Tommy Thomas: What's been the greatest invention in your lifetime?
[00:23:45] David Tolley: Probably the internet.
[00:23:47] Tommy Thomas: What's the best compliment anybody's ever paid you?
[00:23:55] David Tolley: I still get comments from that Tonight Show. In fact, I got three this morning. It's crazy. It was so long ago. But I remember a lady, her email, it is almost like you could see her cry. She was, I guess losing someone in the hospital and she would play that over and over for their family member and she said, I felt like you're playing that from heaven for us.
[00:24:17] Tommy Thomas: So if you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would that be?
[00:24:28] David Tolley: Find what you're really passionate about. Spend some quiet time in prayer, away from the noise and screens. Once you have that down, educate yourself as much as you can, take chances, because God's going to be there with you.
[00:24:45] Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them one question, who would it be and what would the question be?
[00:24:56] David Tolley: My favorite composer of all time is Beethoven. So I would've loved to have met him and since he wrote the whole ninth Symphony in his head, and he was an outcast. People thought he was crazy, but he couldn't hear and he'd walk through town and he had a terrible childhood, but he kept on writing music and I'd love to know what kept him going.
[00:25:17] Tommy Thomas: What's the most worthwhile lesson you've learned so far in your career?
[00:25:35] David Tolley: Boy, you just stumped me. I wrote a musical on Solomon, and it's never been mounted. And but one of the main themes of that is chasing the wind and you can have all this stuff, all these riches, all this stuff, but if you don't have God, it's nothing. It's empty.
++++++++++++++++++++++=
[00:25:51] Tommy Thomas: I hope you enjoyed this podcast. After we turned the recording button off David and I were talking and he told me that he is expecting one of his musicals to appear off Broadway sometime in the spring of 2024. If you want to bring some laughter to your day, watch the two YouTube clips of David's first and second appearances on the Johnny Carson Show. The first appearance will have you in stitches. Only Johnny Carson could do the setup like he did for David. I've included links to both appearances in the episode notes.
January brings us to a new year for the podcast. And I'm pleased with the guests that we've lined up so far. Next week, our guest will be a man who's been the president of three different universities. One of these being a startup.
He has a lot to share about leading institutions of higher education through the various stages of their life cycles.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
David Tolley’s first appearance on the Johnny Carson (the Tonight) Show
David Tolley’s second appearance on the Johnny Carson (the Tonight) Show
David Tolley’s interview with Scott - the Piano Guy
David Tolley’s Interview - the 200 Year Anniversary of Liberty Presbyterian Church
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: For the past six months or so I've been asking our guests the question “If there was a nonprofit version of Shark Tank and you were on the panel of potential early-stage investors, what questions would you need to have answered before you’d make an investment?” Well, again, it's just a fun question to ask that has turned into some great information that I believe people who are thinking of starting a nonprofit would find useful. The first force you'll hear is Kristen McClave from Episode 81 - Her Leadership Journey from Johnson and Johnson to Cardone Industries and Beyond.
[00:00:38] Christin McClave: Oh, that's a fun question. I think first of all I would really want to understand the leader's background. The team, the person, on Shark Tank, they usually have one other person standing with them. And the Sharks are very interested in where they came from, what their experiences are, how the two or the three of them got together, and the dynamic of them working together and what skills maybe one brings to the table, the other one, fills in the gaps. I'd like to really understand that and know, that there's some experience in them building an organization. I think the other piece to that is really the passion, the drive. What is the problem or the issue the founder or the co-founders are trying to solve and what's driving that?
And is that passion or is that issue really going to still be driving them in five years or 10 years? Or is it more of a short-term thing? The other piece, and I think this probably comes from my experience on nonprofit boards that are probably larger than this would be, really understanding the percentage of the budget that would actually be going to the work, the problem solving, the issue resolution, and what percentage of the budget would really be going to administration and or SG&A or overhead, however you want to say it.
That may not be important for everybody, all investors, but for me it's the piece that I enjoy digging into from a financial perspective and from an accountability perspective with nonprofits that I either work with or talk to and just understanding, are they managing that equation or that ratio.
And also as they get larger, they will certainly have donors, investors, fundraising questions around that in particular. And I think the third thing is I'd like to know, who is mentoring them? How do they have support built around them?
Maybe they're an early-stage company, they probably don't have a board yet. But I think in the nonprofit context, it's really important to know those things and to make sure there are people that they've built into their feedback process. Maybe it's just a monthly advisor call that they have with maybe an advisor or a few advisors who meet with them on a regular basis. Because the challenge with a nonprofit, is really thinking through your revenue source.
If your revenue is not coming from a product or a service, it’s coming from the fundraising donation side of things. You've really got to build out some people in your network who can help you strategize about that and become really good at that.
And I'll say just from personal experience, that's part of why I haven't taken on a leadership role in a nonprofit yet in my career because I feel like you have to feel called to the issue or the problem at hand. If you're going to be in a senior role of a not-for-profit organization, you've really got to have a drive and a passion for that cause. And, number two, you've got to really understand the revenue source is very different in the nonprofit space. And you really have to think about, okay, we're raising money for this cause rather than, hey, this product has this gross margin, it's a whole different mindset shift.
And maybe someday I will, but for right now I'm in the for-profit space. But I love supporting and being a mentor and advisor in the nonprofit space and supporting them as much as I can.
[00:04:37] Tommy Thomas: Next up is Caryn Ryan from Episode 84 - Her Leadership Journey from BP Amoco to World Vision to Missionwell.
[00:04:49] Caryn Ryan: This is interesting, but really Tommy, I don't think it's any different for a for-profit than for a non-profit organization. So you're always asking do you have a good vision? And a really big and important question is, do you have the resources? And that's in terms of money but it's also in terms of the network of people to support you making steps towards your vision and making things happen.
And then do you have the drive? Do you feel called for this? How do you demonstrate that? How do you demonstrate that you have the call and that you have the drive? Are you a persister? One thing that will happen for every new organization is just tons of obstacles and problems. They're nonstop.
And so, you have to have that ability to persist and to say, look, I see this obstacle. Am I going to go over it, under it or around it? But for sure I'm going to go around it or get through this. And so, you need to have that kind of foundational trait characteristic. I think the difference really between a for-profit and non-profit is in where you get the money from.
The Shark Tank for the for-profit might be from investors or a bank. Whereas the Shark Tank for a nonprofit might be from stakeholders, donors, grantors. So You have to make sure that the business plan reflects that. But you still have to have the money and you still have to have the people.
And the sense of call might be different too. I think if you're working in a for-profit, you may have a vision around some new product or service. In the nonprofit world, your call may be even more deeply embedded. Especially if it's a religious calling. It may be something that's very right tied or connected to your faith.
It doesn't matter how deeply connected it is to your faith. If you don't have the same things that a for-profit needs your chances of being successful fall. Now, God can always come in and intervene, if you're going to do your part in it, you need the same things that a for-profit does.
[00:06:54] Tommy Thomas: Episode 100 was a milestone for the podcast. In the beginning I probably wondered if I would ever get that far. Here's Rich Stearns, the President Emeritus of World Vision US – An Inauspicious Leadership Journey Part Two.
[00:07:11] Rich Stearns: The very first question that a Shark Tank guy would ask if you came with a new product is how is this product different from every other product that's already out in the market? In other words, nobody needs another cola drink, Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, RC Cola.
There's plenty of cola drinks out there. So, if your big idea is I'm going to do my own cola drink, the first question is why? So with a nonprofit, for example, I've seen young people that want to start up a new World Vision. I want to help the poor in Africa. And so, I'm going to start my own non-profit organization to help them. And my question is why would you do that? Because World Vision is a 3.2 billion organization helping the poor around the world. Compassion is one and a half billion dollars helping the poor around the world. Samaritan’s Purse is a billion-dollar organization.
So what are you doing that they're not doing? Why would I give my money to you instead of an established, successful nonprofit that's doing that work? And, a good example of a positive answer to that would be the International Justice Mission. My friend, Gary Haugen, who started it about 27 years ago now, I think, but he looked around and he said, look, there's a lot of organizations that are feeding the hungry and bringing clean water to the poor and doing microfinance. I don't see any organizations that are helping the poor with their legal problems, protecting them from corrupt police departments and representing them in court when they're falsely accused of something or getting them out of bonded labor in India by using the court system.
So Gary started International Justice Mission to focus on justice and legal issues. He could have called it “lawyers without borders” if he wanted to, because essentially, he hires a lot of attorneys that go around the world and they work through the legal systems to help people who are being oppressed in various ways.
So, the first question to ask is, why would I give to your charity? What is unique about it? And why wouldn't you just partner up with somebody that's already doing this work? If there are nonprofits that are doing it, the next thing you look at is the leader's vision and motivation, right?
If there's a powerful leader with a powerful vision and capabilities do you believe that they, just like you'd look at a startup CEO, do they have the right vision? That's the other thing. Because it takes a lot of elbow grease to start up a nonprofit.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:09:39] Tommy Thomas: From Episode 115 Terri Esau - His Journey from Being Known As The Jingle King Of Minneapolis to Philanthropeneur.
[00:09:55] Terry Esau: First of all, whatever you're pitching, it has to solve a problem and there has to be a resource to help solve that problem. Like for us, it was like, here's the problem. Kids in America are unhealthy, they're obese, there's poverty, so they can't afford a bicycle. Can help solve some of their health issues, not just physical health issues, but mental health issues, right?
I call my bike my carbon fiber therapist because, you're a cyclist. It's like I get on my bike, and I go for a ride. I could be having a bad day, but by the time I get done with my ride, all that stress has just been washed away.
So I'm Shark Tank. I think you'd have to go, what's the problem? What's the solution? And then on top of that you have to go, what's your strategy to bring the solution to the problem? What are the logistics? What are the resources that you need? People who give money to causes, you really have to sell them on the fact that you are going to change the world in some small way. At least in the nonprofit world.
In the for profit world, then you have to prove to them that you can make your money back on this investment. For us, we say, yeah, you're not making money back on us, but you should feel really good about what you're doing to change the lives of children.
[00:11:38] Tommy Thomas: From Episode 88 - Lisa Trevino Cummins, Her Leadership Journey from Bank of America to Urban Strategies Part Two.
[00:11:49] Lisa Cummins: I think the question I would ask is what is your employee turnover? And because I have found nonprofits come and go and employee turnover helps me understand what your commitment is, what your ability is to lead, what your consistency is with your values.
Because if you're not consistent, employees won't stay long. Maybe you can explain them once or twice, but if you have an ongoing record of employees that are leaving, then there's a problem there. The other thing I would ask is a lot of nonprofits talk about partners.
Let's say, describe the continuum of partnership with these organizations. When you say your partner is this because you dropped off a leaflet at their door. Sometimes that's okay. Depends on what the goal is or is this talking about someone who you know their name, right?
You know their name and you know their story and so you're trying to get at it in a deeper way. Those kinds of things. Yeah, I think those are a couple of questions I would ask. I would also ask how well, and this is important, some people will say this is a political thing and it's not.
How well does your organization reflect the communities you're serving? Because if it doesn't, that means there's probably a sense of a pejorative type of approach that is not going to be that is less what could be, and it'll result in less than results than what could be.
Does that make sense?
[00:13:33] Tommy Thomas: And last, but certainly not least, from Episode 109 John Somerville - His Leadership Journey from Marketing Executive with General Mills to Chief Financial Officer At The University Of Northwestern St. Paul.
[00:13:49] John Sommerville: I think the first question is, what need do you believe exists that your ministry or organization will serve? And how is what you're doing, how will that serve that need? Because if there's a true need I think many things follow from that. And if you have something unique that will really help meet that need, then the organization needs to exist.
So I think those are big questions. And the other thing that I often ask is, who else is doing this? What I find is that there are people who are pioneers who do something for the very first time, and we write books about those people, but often what we need is I found more often that the people that are innovators they're just being novel without actually being effective and so it's important to understand the need, be able to meet the need, and then also give examples of how that works.
You may have a unique spin on it, but the core of it needs to be channeled into an area that others have been successful in the past.
+++++++++++++++
[00:14:51] Tommy Thomas: Next week is Christmas. And in keeping with the tradition, I followed for the past two years, I've interviewed someone from the music industry. This year, our guest is David Tolley. David is an amazing music, composer and arranger, and a tenured professor at Delaware State University. Part of David’s story is that a big part of his career was launched from an inauspicious and some might say accidental appearance on the Johnny Carson Show. Join us next week to hear the rest of David's story.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Amanda Martin: Team sports just develops this ability to know your role. And surgery is not done by one person. Every person involved in surgery has to do their role well for everything to go well. You have to have every bit of instrumentation that you need.
We need the engineers to create interesting new ways for us to heal the human body. We need the biologists to help come up with biologic advances. We need anesthesia. We need the nurses. We need the techs. You every single person, there are 20 people involved in a surgery. And if any one of them isn't there, it's not going to work.
Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dr. Amanda Martin, whose practice focuses on arthroscopic surgery of the knee, shoulder, hip, and elbow.
Dr. Martin currently sees patients at the Elite Sports Medicine and Orthopedic Center in Nashville and Franklin. Now some of you are probably wondering what an orthoscopic or orthopedic surgeon has to do with the nonprofit leadership. And I think if you'll stick around to the end of this show that'll become clear.
I first met Dr. Martin on the 27th of December of 2017. I was experiencing significant pain in my right knee and my family practice doctor referred me to her. After the obligatory x-ray and MRI, she scheduled me for surgery. And later on in April, we decided the left knee needed surgery.
So, she did both of them. Little did I know that I was getting an excellent surgeon, who unlike some surgeons, had a winsome bedside manner. And was a team physician for the United States Women's Soccer Team. Dr. Martin, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:40] Amanda Martin: Hi there. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional career, I want to go back to your childhood. Give me some thoughts on some highlights of growing up.
[00:01:55] Amanda Martin: Oh, man. Oftentimes we'll hear people tell stories and talk about their struggles or things that happened in their childhood that really developed and made them into who they were in the struggle. And I don't have that story.
My entire life was outside. Something was always broken. Something was always cut. I was always in the emergency room to the point where my mom would say she was sure glad my dad worked in said emergency room, or she'd be concerned that people might offer some concern for me.
I had the quintessential American happy childhood. I have an amazing family, wonderful mom and dad. And I grew up in rural Oklahoma. My grandfather was a cattle farmer, and my father was a family physician and also an educator. And we just did everything as a family.
My entire life was outside. Something was always broken. Something was always cut. I was always in the emergency room to the point where my mom would say she was sure glad my dad worked and said emergency room or she'd be concerned that people might offer some concern for me. But it was a really idyllic childhood. I grew up in the eighties when you could still go and do as a child freely and have independence.
And if you were hungry, you better figure out how to make some food. And so it really developed that sort of independent streak. And I developed it at a young age. I was the youngest child in my family. And so, I had a lot of downtime. My mom said always a nose in a book and always, doing something relatively ill advised when it came to daring and sporting type maneuvers. But it really gave me that independent streak as an early age.
[00:03:10] Tommy Thomas: What would you say was the happiest memory?
[00:03:14] Amanda Martin: Oh, there's too many to count. I can remember as clear as day trying to catch Santa Claus. We're in the Christmas Advent season and just wanting more than anything to see Santa Claus.
And sleeping under the Christmas tree with my little dog Barney. And somehow, the magic of Christmas happened all around me while I slept under the Christmas tree that night. And I woke up to find all of the presents and Christmas magic had still managed to arrive despite my sneaky attempt.
I was raised in a family where there were no limits or boundaries on what I could accomplish. At various times in my youth, I wanted to be Miss America, a Dallas Cowboy Cheerleader, an astronaut, or serve in the diplomatic corps.
[00:03:43] Tommy Thomas: With your dad being a physician, did you want to be a physician when you grew up or did you want to be a cowgirl?
[00:03:50] Amanda Martin: I wanted to be everything. There was a time in my life where I wanted to be Miss America and a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader, and an astronaut, and I wanted to work for the civil service, and president of the United States.
I was raised that there’s absolutely no boundaries to anything that you can or cannot do. So the sky was the limit and I ran the gamut of it. I knew I wanted to do something, and I wanted to do something that not everybody did. But when I say as a child, it ran the gamut, it ran the gamut.
[00:04:23] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like? If you had to pick three words to describe high school, what would they be?
[00:04:30] Amanda Martin: High school was incredible. It was challenging and it was motivating. I went to an incredible school, Holland Hall Preparatory Academy.
And up until that point I had lived in a small town, moved to Tulsa and went to this school where Everybody was amazing. Every person there excelled in an art or a sporting athletic endeavor or academically. And people refer to your mom and dad as ma'am and sir. I was such an incredible place where everyone had a plan for their life.
It wasn't a high pressure-cooked environment. It was very open and allowed open learning. And we had a modular schedule. So, there was time to work arts and sports into the day, but it just was a place where everybody really wanted to do something, and everybody believed they could do something, and it was such an inspirational environment.
I started playing team sports as a little bitty baby. My sister is three years older than me, and I started playing on her basketball team when I was five.
[00:05:22] Tommy Thomas: Is that where you got introduced to team sports?
[00:05:25] Amanda Martin: No, I started playing team sports as a little bitty baby. My sister is three years older than me, and I started playing on her basketball team when I was five. The eight-year-old girls and the little five-year-old Amanda and my dad coached and, he would blow the whistle and say left and you're meant to drive down the court dribbling with your left hand.
Yeah. Sometimes the girls would be on their way back before I figured out which hand was left. But it just gave me such a gift. My brother is 11 years older than me. So he was at that time, really excelling in sports. He went on to play college basketball. And so, I was in the gym with him with little dribble goggles.
So, I couldn't look down learning the fundamentals of the game at the age of five and six, and then running straight back to gymnastics. I started playing team sports before I even knew the benefit of it.
[00:06:12] Tommy Thomas: Tell me about the best athletic team you ever played on.
[00:06:18] Amanda Martin: Oh, my goodness. I think they were all, going to Holland Hall, everybody was so talented. That was one of the interesting things. You came all from everywhere. When I was a freshman in high school, I wanted to try something new, and I'd never heard of field hockey and Holland Hall played the Kansas City and the Dallas kids in field hockey.
And most of those girls on my team went on to play college field hockey at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, Stanford University of Virginia, and I had never played. I just wanted something to stay in shape for soccer. And so, I went out for it and I was a little nervous because they told me they wore a skirt.
I didn't know anything about field hockey. And that team that I played for my freshman year is by far the most talented people I've ever been exposed to. And a completely new sport. It was an extraordinarily humbling experience. But it was also the most fun I'd ever had because it opened my eyes to how many other things there might be out there that I had no clue about.
[00:07:16] Tommy Thomas: So, if I could have shadowed your coach during that year and observed him or her coaching, what would I have observed that brought the best out of you ladies?
I believe in high expectations. Children and young athletes will perform to the standard that is expected. I believe this to the core of my being.
[00:07:32] Amanda Martin: I think from a coaching standpoint, you have to have high expectations. I think that children, and I believe this to my core, young youth athletes or children, they will perform to the standard that is expected.
And if you have a positive high expectation environment, you will get wonderful results from it. And the thing that I talk about with myself, what I grew up with, my dad was a coach of all my brother's teams. And if you surround yourself by other people who are coachable, who are willing to listen and learn and not think that they know the best and be willing to take a step back and, one of my skills was I was always the fastest. I always was the fastest and I always was more determined than anyone else. But there were times that I needed to step back from being the fastest and learn better footwork, better shooting skills, just spend a couple of hours shooting free throws over and just really listen and focus on fundamentals.
I think, to be coachable is the most important thing that anyone can be to have a good attitude and be willing to listen.
[00:08:40] Tommy Thomas: Was there a point in your soccer or field hockey career when you realized that the coach was probably trying to teach you more than soccer?
[00:08:49] Amanda Martin: Oh, absolutely. I grew up in the Bible Belt. I grew up in Oklahoma. And, my day starts, finishes, ends, every second of the middle of the day is keeping our eyes focused on Christ. My family, my dad always said we keep the first things first. And so everything that we do is centered on am I doing this to the best of my ability?
Am I representing my family well? Am I representing my God well? And that is just where everything in my life has stemmed from. I wasn't a good field hockey player. I was a terrible field hockey player. But I was a great teammate and I wanted to try something new because I was a good basketball player, and I was a really great gymnast.
And just, finding out what you're good at is important. But I think finding out what you're not good at and deciding, can I make myself better or am I willing to not have pride and step away from this and pursue other things is also equally important. You have to know what your gifts are and know that you're individually given them by a divine and loving maker who wants you to be successful.
And it's important to try everything, but it's important to really find a path that God has laid out for you and be willing to listen and be open to it.
[00:10:01] Tommy Thomas: So no matter how hard and dedicated you are to something, failure is always an option. What did you learn from team sports about that failure that has helped you as a surgeon?
Failure is always an option, but it should never be an option in your mind. In surgery, there is no measuring once and cutting twice when you are talking about a living being.
[00:10:18] Amanda Martin: One failure is always an option, but it should never be an option in your mind. I think you have to find a way. And one thing I always say about particularly orthopedic surgeon is that it's glorified carpentry. What I do is I saw and I cut and I work and rebuild the human body. There is no measuring once and cutting twice when you're talking about living being.
You have to measure twice and cut once, and you have to have a plan A, B, and C. Every single thing that you do. And team sports just develops this ability to know your role. And surgery is not done by one person. Every person involved in surgery has to do their role well for everything to go well. You have to have every bit of instrumentation that you need.
We need the engineers to create interesting new ways for us to heal the human body. We need the biologists to help come up with biologic advances. We need anesthesia. We need the nurses. We need the techs. There are 20 people involved in a surgery. And if any one of them isn't there, it's not going to work.
And that's where team sports are so important in understanding that you cannot do it all. If you try to do it all, you're going to hurt your teammates. You're going to harm. The process and learning how to function in that unit is critical in order to be successful in anything, but particularly surgery.
I think you'll find so many people who go into the surgical fields were high school and collegiate athletes.
[00:11:43] Tommy Thomas: So you're talking to someone who doesn't know anything about it, except I've had it several times. Who's in charge in the OR and what does the teamwork look like?
[00:11:54] Amanda Martin: So we always say the surgeon is the captain of the ship but your anesthesiologist is really your best friend.
That's the person who's managing your medications, putting you to sleep and more importantly, waking you up. It's relatively easy to help somebody take a nap. The hard part is waking them back up. And then there's all of the nursing staff. There's your registered nurse who is there to help with anesthesia and surgery.
There are scrub technicians who set up a sterile field. There are people in the back who sterilize the instruments and wrap the instruments. There's the nurses in the front who bring you in and go through your health history and really screen out if there's anything we need to be aware of. Maybe it's not safe to have surgery that day.
There are the nurses who help you recover from surgery. There's your physical therapist after surgery is as you go on and on. There are so many people that will touch your care that you may never meet that we can't do anything that we do without them.
[00:12:48] Tommy Thomas: If the surgeon or the anesthesiologist is the band leader, what does that look like operationally?
Are you briefing them before surgery or have a team meeting to look at everything?
[00:13:02] Amanda Martin: There are so many times where sports relate to surgical life. But this is one opportunity where medicine has really related to sports and sports medicine.
In particular, we have something called a surgical timeout. Of course, when we schedule a surgery for you, we send your history, your information, the problem, our surgical plan is made, we send all of those orders to the hospital, the facility where you have surgery, and then those orders are followed.
So it is coming from us directly. But then the entire system kicks into play. People need to call and start anesthesia screening, making sure that we're ready for surgery. You're safe. You have a good, safe plan. You have a plan for at home when you go home with your family. So you know, the order starts with the surgeon. Anesthesia gets involved, and then they trickle down, but they're following orders.
Prior to a surgery, there's something called a timeout where everyone in the room stops. There's no music playing, there's nothing. And we identify. This is John Doe. He's here today to have surgery on his right knee. He has an allergy to penicillin. He has no other medical problems. Every person in the room identifies themselves.
I'm Dr. Martin. I'll be operating on the right knee today. And we go through the entire room. Do we have all of the instruments that we need? Are there fire precautions that need to be taken? And we go through that checklist. And then when everyone in the room is given an opportunity to agree, the timeout is over and we can begin surgery.
We have gotten to the point now in sports medicine where we do the same thing prior to a game. I'm Dr. Martin. I'm with the women's national team. This is our athletic train. This is our physical therapist. This is our emergency medicine doctor. This is the paramedic. This is the plan. If someone were to have a cardiac event, this is what we will do. If someone were to have a leg injury, this is how we will handle it. And that meeting happens prior to the game so that both medical staffs from both teams are able to get together and decide exactly how an emergency would be handled.
[00:15:01] Tommy Thomas: If I could talk to your team, if I could have talked to them before my surgery, what would they have said was the best thing about working for Dr. Martin, and what would they have said was the most challenging thing about being in your operating suite?
[00:15:20] Amanda Martin: I think they would have said I'm the best. No, I absolutely love my team. We pray on our patients. We always have a respectful environment.
I think they would say the best thing is that it's going to be a collegial and happy day, no matter what people often say. My reputation is I don't lose my cool and I'm always very thankful and grateful to the staff. And I think the worst part is they know they're going to have to listen to funny stories because I treat the operating room like my diary and always want to tell the stories of what's happened the day before with my kids. Mostly for laughs. And they're mostly embellished, if you've ever told a fish story. But that might be the best or the worst part depending on how you look at it.
[00:15:57] Tommy Thomas: Go back to somehow along the way you decided to get into medicine. Take us to that point and maybe walk us forward a little.
My brother was a college basketball player, and at the time the college basketball coach said, have you ever thought about being a cheerleader? And I said, how dare you suggest such a thing?
[00:16:04] Amanda Martin: Yes. So I played all sorts of sports growing up and ultimately, because I was a gymnast, I competed at a fairly high level. Had a back injury, stopped doing gymnastics. That's when I really in high school got more into basketball, running track, those sorts of things. My brother was a college basketball player, and at the time the college basketball coach said, have you ever thought about being a cheerleader? And I said, how dare you suggest such a thing? And he said, no, seriously, Amanda, nobody likes sports more than you.
What if you were on the sidelines, you would really love it. Plus you can do flips. And so I thought about it. So it was the 90s. I was just such a tomboy. I don't even know if you can say tomboy anymore. I was such a tomboy and just the idea of it.
I wasn't sure but there is something magical about a cheerleading outfit because you get a little bit of pep in your step and so I ended up cheering and when I was in college, I had a knee injury and tore all the ligaments in my knee and I knew I wanted to be a doctor but I didn't know what kind and that process was really eye opening for me and I enjoyed it and so I would tell everybody hey, you know, I think I'm gonna be an orthopedic surgeon.
And people would say, that is so cute. Don't you think maybe you want to do peds and then maybe be a sports medicine doctor, not a surgeon. And I would just say, we'll see. And so I really started to feel I wanted to do that. Now my major in college was biochemistry and French linguistics.
My dad said, why don't you just take the MCAT and apply to medical school? And I did, and I was young, I was 16 when I went to college, 21 when I started medical school.
I still had a passion and a thought that I wanted to serve in the civil service. So I was still holding out, maybe I would go to law school or do a different route. And ultimately my dad said, why don't you just take the MCAT and apply to medical school? And I did, and I was young, I was 16 when I went to college, 21 when I started medical school.
So I was very young through the process. So you know, forgive me for saying, oh, I just decided to apply to medical school and it worked out but that was how it worked. And I just, I really think that, when God has a plan for you, the path will become very straight and despite, any sort of young arrogance or anything, he will straighten the path for your steps.
And I fell into it and I knew instantly I wanted to do orthopedics. I wanted to do something where there was a beginning, a middle, and an end, and you could see a tangible result for your work. And every field of medicine is important, but that just appealed to me. I love young, healthy people. I love athletes.
I love keeping people young and healthy. I always say, boomeritis is one of my favorite things to treat because it's people who are neglected or ignored or said, you just need to replace that. Or you just need to stop running or you need to stop doing this. Maybe you should play pickleball instead of tennis when what you want to play is tennis.
I love to serve people who want to be active and it just worked out. It just, I fell into it. I knew when I hurt my knee that I thought that was something I could do and heard nothing, but that's not something you can do from people for eight years straight and kept my head down and my mouth shut and it worked out.
[00:19:09] Tommy Thomas: I noticed on your bio that you spent some time in South Africa doing a rotation or an internship.
[00:19:16] Amanda Martin: I did, yes. I did my trauma fellowship in Cape Town. Many people may not know that, but at Groote Schuur Hospital which is a big hospital in Cape Town. That's where the very first open-heart transplant was done.
At the end of my residency in New Jersey, I did a fellowship at the American Sports Medicine Institute and did sports medicine for a year in Birmingham and accepted a job to be an attendant. But there's a space in sports medicine that I call athletic trauma, where the traumatologist at your level one trauma center, that's used to dealing with people falling off a roof or having a car wreck.
They're used to those broken bones and they're like, congratulations, you're alive. You can walk. And then the sports people are like, oh, I'd rather fix your ACL. I don't know about your broken leg. And there was just a really beautiful in between place. And I felt like I wanted to do another year of trauma so that I could bridge that gap and understand these fractures in young, healthy people.
If we're treating them like athletes and rehabbing them the way we rehab our soft tissue injuries and athletes that was an area I could make a difference in. It was a space where there's not a big comfort zone. I always feel like if you're just quiet enough to listen, you can identify where the needs are.
So I went to Africa and it was great.
[00:20:34] Tommy Thomas: So as a person of faith and I would assume a reasonably competitive person, how do you balance your competitive nature with your faith? Or is that a struggle?
[00:20:45] Amanda Martin: No, it's a struggle. And being a surgeon, it's a struggle every day. I saw a meme the other day and I loved it.
And it said, I think that every Christian, particularly American, a cultural Christian, we have this gospel of prosperity in this country that's just habit here. I think you should wake up in the morning and get over yourself. I know that sounds crazy and I don't mean it in a negative way, but I think it is such a great place to start. Immediately humble yourself.
Every achievement you have, every thought you've had, everything you've done is coming from a creator. And so I wake up now, I am competitive. I have a lot to do in the day. I get up at three in the morning because I need my time. And I spend that first hour in the Word. And the first thing I do is pray to be humbled.
Pray Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That is something I'm really focusing on this year. It's Your will, not mine. And, really submitting first thing and then remembering that I am a creation, I was created for a purpose and humbling myself to know what that purpose is and do everything I do that day for that purpose.
And it is competitive. I really believe it. And my mom, every day of my life said, do it to the glory of God, do it to the glory of God, and it's just so rope as part of my experience, but I think you make your bed to the glory of God and you tie your shoes to the glory of God. It just became a habit and, habits become a way of life.
And, so everything that I do, I think about somebody who's watching it and has an expectation that I do my best. I will not always do my best. I'm not the best at everything. I'm horrible at certain things. But everything I take the time to do, I do think it should be done to the best of my ability.
Because that's how I honor my Creator.
[00:22:36] Tommy Thomas: So I want to ask you a risk question. Frederick Wilcox said, Progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken in your career and how did it turn out?
[00:22:52] Amanda Martin: I think I took a huge risk leaving the American Sports Medicine Institute to come to Nashville.
I'm married to a songwriter, and we have two beautiful kids and he said, I have to move to Nashville. And I said, I have the best job in America. I don't want to leave it. It was early in our marriage. We'd only been married a few years, and I had a newborn baby and a one-year-old.
And it was really developing a career where I wanted it. I was really happy with where I was. I was traveling with the national youth program at the time and working with major league soccer. And that was a big one. And I just had to step out on faith that God would make it right.
There are a lot of people out there that do things because it's a job. And there are some people out there that do things because they feel that is their talent, that serving mankind is their gift. Dr. Burton Elrod is one of those people.
And I met Dr. Burton Elrod, who is the founder of Elite Sports Medicine and just really found a kindred spirit. Someone who just loves God and serves his community. There are a lot of people out there that do things because it's a job. And there are some people out there that do things because they feel that is their talent, that serving mankind is their gift.
And Dr. Elrod is one of those people. And it just, we fell in line, the practice was taking care of the Titans at the time. And it was just very like-minded people who love their families and love their community. I just felt like it was a risk worth taking and it wasn't easy. It's hard to come to a big city, once you've established practice and it took me longer than I thought it would, but I feel like I've really become a part of the natural community and I wouldn't have it any other way.
[00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: How did you get involved with the women's soccer team?
[00:24:25] Amanda Martin: I have a second little tip if anyone is listening for success and that is always show up and always say yes. You have to be willing to raise your hand and say, I'm good enough and I want to try it, and be available and be willing to do hard work.
When I was a fellow, I was assigned major league soccer as one of the clubs, when you go to the ASMI, there's going to be University of Alabama, University of Auburn, so many opportunities. And I said, I'm going to do soccer. This is a path. There's only 25 NFL teams.
There's 25 NFL doctors. Soccer is the fastest growing sport in America, and it's the one that I love. I'm going to make my mark in soccer. So I volunteered to do research for major league soccer. I went to New York, and I just piled through hours and hours of injury film. And the kind of nitty gritty stuff that no one wants to do is my research project.
And made those relationships. And to this day, I still work for major league soccer, the director of education. I run their annual education meeting for all of the team physicians. We have that coming up next week in Fort Lauderdale. And it was because I was willing to show up for no pay, no title, no nothing, and just really do nitty gritty work.
And that opportunity led me to meet the national team physicians. And I came in starting with the under 20 women and started traveling with them. And that's hard. That as a young surgeon to be gone for two or three weeks at a time, it is a big sacrifice for your practice financially for your partners.
And it was just something where I fill my cup doing sports medicine, working with great people really just makes you want to be great too. And so it's just relationships and being willing to say yes, being willing to do something that maybe somebody else doesn't want to do can lead to really great things.
And it did for me. I raised my hand and said, I'll do that. And this is where I am 15 years later.
[00:26:08] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. I remember, of course, you were through with me on my knee, but I was still seeing you every two or three months. And you had to go to France for two weeks with the women's team. That's a chunk of time.
[00:26:21] Amanda Martin: Yeah, it is, and this year, now that my kids are getting older, this year, for World Cup, it was all the way in New Zealand, and t's something I do, but it's something they do too. They have to be willing to say, we're going to let our mom go and do this because I'm still the mom.
And you have to find a way and build a tribe full of people who will help you to do it. And you have to be willing to ask for help. And I asked my kids now before I take a chunk of time, I say, is this okay with you guys? Because this means we may not do a vacation or we may not do something else.
And they always get a say.
[00:26:55] Tommy Thomas: So wrapping this thing up. What counsel are you giving young people about careers and then obviously you would have a bit toward medicine, but I think you've probably got a global perspective also.
[00:27:12] Amanda Martin: I think one of the most tried and true things that people say is find out what you love and do it.
And I think that's important, but I would also say humble yourself, find out where your talents are, find out where your skills are, do everything you can to develop them, and then create a pathway that allows you to provide for your family, your community, your church, and the kingdom of God. And if you can check off all of those things, you are going to have a fulfilling and happy life.
It just can’t be, I want to do this for me. It has to be, what am I doing for my Creator? What am I doing for my community? What am I going to do for my family? And I think you have to be practical about it, be honest with yourself about the things you want.
If money is something that's important to you, that's okay. You need to choose a career path going down that way. If time is important to you, you need to recognize it right away because you will be burnt out and miserable if you do something that doesn't allow you to do the things that feed your soul. Really humble yourself and pray and think about the next 40 years and always be open to change if it's not. Because we have to, I have to be serving before we can serve ourselves.
[00:28:28] Tommy Thomas: I'm a firm believer that leadership lessons are transferable to the nonprofit sector from countless other occupations. In previous episodes, we've talked with two- and three-star generals from the army in the air force, as well as a fighter pilot. Each of these guests share valuable transferable leadership lessons. I wanted Dr. Martin as a guest because she brings life and leadership lessons from organized team sports and medicine. Particularly the operating room. If you're a nonprofit leader, I hope you picked up on a few ideas from this conversation and are able to contextualize them into your particular situation.
Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surverys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Elite Sports Medicine + Orthopedics (Franklin, TN)
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Philanthropeneur Terry Esau. Terry spent most of his career writing and producing music for TV commercials. Target, McDonald's, Pepsi, Harley-Davidson, Honda, Dairy Queen, Golden Grahams, and everything in between. He worked with celebrities like Amy Grant, Jim Henson, Alice Cooper and Prince. After writing over a thousand commercial scoring films and writing for TV shows, he decided to take a break from the music business. And tried his hand at writing words. He's the author of three books and one novel.
Terry is a certified bike-a-holic. In 2010, he started a nonprofit organization called Free Bicycles for Kidz and has given away over 150,000 bicycles to kids in need. He holds the Guinness World Record for most bikes collected in one day, nearly 10,000, in Minneapolis. Free Bikes for Kidz is now active in 20 cities with a goal of being in a hundred cities and a million bikes given away in the next five years. Recently, Terry cofounded the new nonprofit Free Guitars for Kids. They partner with music industry giants such as Gibson and Fender and other music leaders to put guitars in the hands of deserving young people.
Before we get too deep into your music and professional career, take me back to your childhood or your upbringing. What was that like for you?
[00:01:35] Terry Esau: I grew up in a tiny little town of 2,000 people called Mountain Lake, where there's no mountain and a man-made lake in southern Minnesota.
So yeah, small town. I don't know. It was a typical small-town upbringing, just hanging out, riding my bike everywhere after school and I had a paper route because I got paid to ride my bike. My brother and I would build ramps and we'd collect neighborhood kids and have them lie down on the street and we'd see how many kids we could jump over.
[00:02:15] Tommy Thomas: Y'all must be pretty good salesmen to get somebody to do that.
[00:02:17] Terry Esau: Yeah we usually made it. So it was that, and then I went to college at a school here in Minneapolis, Christian Liberal Arts School, Northwestern. Got a music education degree, which technically I've never used. But I used the music aspect of it for the rest of my career, so we can talk about that when you're ready.
[00:02:45] Tommy Thomas: How did you get into music? What was your first instrument?
[00:02:47] Terry Esau: I got a guitar when I was, I don't know how old, probably in sixth or seventh grade, through Sears Roebuck. A Silver Tone guitar. It was not a great guitar, but it was all I needed and I played trumpet in in middle school and high school band.
And then I just continued on that. When I got to college, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was interested in music and I played in a few bands and stuff like that. So, I continued in the music degree and then, through a kind of interesting circumstances, I ended up discovering what my career would be in music, but it had nothing to do with music education.
[00:03:35] Tommy Thomas: What’s something that people might be surprised to know about you?
[00:03:41] Terry Esau: Other than riding my bike across the country, I got to mix one of my songs with Prince. I did a Target Christmas campaign with Amy Grant. I did a Sam Goody campaign with Alice Cooper. I got to do some Sesame Street music with Jim Henson.
And then my nonprofits. I started two nonprofits that have given away 150,000 bicycles and now we're doing the same thing with guitars. So yeah, I've gotten three books published. I have a very strange career trajectory. I'm still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.
[00:04:27] Tommy Thomas: How did you get into making music for a living? When did you realize that, wow, I could make a living doing this?
[00:04:31] Terry Esau: So here's an interesting story. My first day in college, my first day in music theory class, our professor said here's your assignment.
Go home, write a jingle about milk, and come back tomorrow and perform it for the class. So, I did that. Never thought anything of it. Until three years later when I was completely out of money. So, I decided to take a year off of college and work. And I was teaching guitar lessons in a music store.
Almost went insane. I had 55 lessons a week and all I did all day long was teach junior high boys how to play Smoke on the Water. Do you remember that song?
[00:05:15] Tommy Thomas: That's a limited horizon.
[00:05:16] Terry Esau: Yeah, but then I just, I walked in and quit one day, and I just said, I can't do this one more day.
And I remembered back to that first assignment in music theory class, and I thought, huh. I wonder if anybody would pay me to do that. It's a long story, but I ended up in the jingle business, working, writing and producing music for TV commercials, mostly.
[00:05:45] Tommy Thomas: Do you remember your first big jingle?
[00:05:49] Terry Esau: My first jingle was for a little flower shop called Whiting's Flowers. I wouldn't call that a big jingle by any means. I don't remember what my first big one was. Like I said, I've done jingles for McDonald's and Pepsi and Harley's and Hondas and Target and General Mills cereals and I've probably done over a thousand commercials, wow. It's a strange career.
[00:06:19] Tommy Thomas: Have you had any mentors in your life?
[00:06:23] Terry Esau: I've had a lot of mentors. One of the guys who really helped get me started, his name was Dick Wilson and he was he was probably in his late forties or fifties when I was in my twenties. I don't know if he saw potential in me or what, but he took me under his wing and he started giving me work and he was like the jingle king of Minneapolis in the 1940s and 50s, and that was when jingles were the deal. He took me under his wing and believed in me and convinced other ad agency people to believe in me. I'm not sure if you can make it in that business without somebody who's there who already believes in you a little bit.
Yeah, so he was certainly a mentor.
[00:07:21] Tommy Thomas: Anybody at the school, at the college?
[00:07:25] Terry Esau: My theory professor, Maxine Woodbridge Postgate, it's funny because we had a love hate relationship. I think she recognized that I had potential, but she was very conservative, and she was a great composer of choral music, but she believed in following the musical rules very strictly.
And I seem to have a bent to want to break the rules. I remember she called me in one day after it was a final composition I did for, I don't remember if it was music theory 101, or the second year theory class. And we had to compose something and then bring in musicians and perform it.
So we did it. And the next day she called me in front of the music theory class, and she said, I just want you all to know that what Terry did was not music. And I'm giving him an F for that project. It was a little too avant garde for her. It was a little, like some of the more modern classical music, where it's a little atonal and experimental and she just goes, no. She had a very narrow definition of what music was supposed to be.
Yet, she would keep trying to help me and give me opportunities because she believed in me. But she really wanted to make me into a composer like she was. And I've done some of that in my later years. I've composed some choral music that's gotten published. But I believe in all kinds of music, and that was the beauty about being in the jingle business. One day I would have to compose something that was operatic, and the next day was country western, and the next was rock and roll. You do all kinds of music. If you listen to enough TV commercials that have music, you're going to hear all kinds of music, right?
[00:09:34] Tommy Thomas: What have you done relative to mentoring others? What does that look like in your life?
[00:09:38] Terry Esau: I actually do a lot of that. I guess a lot of the mentoring that I do I don't see it as career mentoring. I see it as personal growth and development and spiritual mentoring.
Because I feel I have some career paths in the music business, in the nonprofit business, in the book publishing business. So, I have experience there. So, if people want to talk about that, I'm obviously happy to do that. But I think it's more important that if you're mentoring young people, it's like, how do you get them to grow up to be people of integrity and character and generosity and kindness and compassion?
And those are characteristics that will serve you through your life and make the world a better place. So, I meet with, especially a lot of young men who are in their twenties, maybe thirties. As I get older, it's like the young men are older too. Yes, they are. And my wife sometimes says to me, she goes, you're mentoring so many of these young guys.
And I go, but you don't understand they're mentoring me too. I don't think mentoring is ever, well, mentoring shouldn't be a one-way street. It should be a two-way thing. I feel like I'm learning as much from the people I'm mentoring as the people, as they're getting from me.
[00:11:15] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that probably most of us learn most from our failures or mistakes. If that's the truth, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:11:27] Terry Esau: You know what, I've never, I don't think I've ever been too afraid to fail. But I've always believed that you should fail quickly, and you should learn from your failures. I always look at it this way, if you've never failed, you've probably never tried. Or you've never taken on something that was a little bigger than you.
If you only attempt things that you know you can accomplish, I don't think that's a high enough degree of risk worthy of living a passionate life. So I've had plenty of failures. I've gotten three books published, but I have about four other books that I've started or even finished and haven't been published. You could look at those as failures or you could look at it as I learned something from them. And sometimes, my writing is part of how I process life and come to understand what I think and believe. So even if a book doesn't get published, it's served in my personal growth, right?
[00:12:43] Tommy Thomas: What's the biggest risk you've ever taken?
[00:12:53] Terry Esau: I would say when I quit the music business. I didn't really know what I was going to do. I'm actually doing a TED talk this summer and the title is the sharp elbow of restlessness.
Some people say when God closes a door, he opens a window. There's all these cliches. I feel like before doors are even closed for me; I start to feel restless. And restlessness is something I can't ignore, because often it's when I start to feel like I'm lacking in purpose.
That's when I start to feel restless and without purpose, I always feel restless. So, in my music career, after 25 years, I could not ignore this feeling that I feel like this chapter of my life is supposed to be over. And I didn't know what I was going to go into. I didn't know what the next chapter was, but I felt very, I don't know.
I felt very certain and willing to take a risk that I need to walk away from this and discover what is next. So, I did that and that was a pretty big risk, I think, at that time. Because I'm in my late 40s, probably peak earning career. And I just walked away.
I sold my recording studio. And that led to my getting my first book published. Which then turned into a speaking career. So again, all of those things were a risk because I didn't know what I was going into. It was a risk because I've never made the kind of money doing all of these new things that I do that I did in the music career.
I was risking some financial opportunity, but sometimes having purpose in your life and meaning pays bigger dividends than finances, right?
[00:15:15] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, tell us more about the TED Talk. How does one get invited to give a TED Talk?
[00:15:21] Terry Esau: So anybody can apply to be a TED speaker.
Okay. But it had never occurred to me to even think about that. But I got an email one day from a guy who's the head of the acquisitions team that searches for speakers. And I got an email and I was scanning it and I was just about to click delete because I thought it was just another one of those scam things, hey, send us 200 and we'll put your name in this book of great entrepreneurs or whatever.
I've seen so many of those things that I just delete them. But this guy, he said, hey, could you meet me for coffee? So, I'm going oh, so he's local and he actually wants to get together in person. So, then I read a little more and I go, he's part of the TED organization. I've always respected and enjoyed watching TED talks.
So I went and met with him, had coffee and he goes, yeah we like what you've been doing in your career. And we think you might have an inspiring story to tell. So here I am next on August 12th. I'm doing a TED talk at Orchestra Hall here in Minneapolis.
[00:16:42] Tommy Thomas: Wow, congratulations. We'll have to look on that and see when it gets on the schedule.
[00:16:47] Terry Esau: Yeah, they upload those things to YouTube and you can search them. And yeah, so I'm basically talking about the thing I've been telling you about is that how restlessness should not necessarily be viewed as a negative thing. I say you might want to look at restlessness as like a light on the dashboard of your life saying, hey, it might be time for you to change, to try something new, take a risk, so it's happened to me multiple times in my careers and so far I believe that restlessness is something I need to pay attention to because it's always led me into something really interesting.
[00:17:34] Tommy Thomas: I know you've started two nonprofits, Free Bikes for Kids and Free Guitars for Kids. Take us into the early days of those. I get questions often from people who say, why don't you do a podcast on how to start a nonprofit? Tell us about the early days.
[00:17:51] Terry Esau: Once again, I never intended to start a nonprofit.
I started a hobby. I actually got a call from a friend and he said, hey there's this kid in our neighborhood who doesn't have a bicycle, his parents can't afford one and it was December, so Christmas is coming and so I just got together with some of my buddies and said, hey, why don't we collect bicycles this December, fix them up and we'll give them to kids who don't have a bicycle and can't afford one.
And so that first year we gave away 250 bikes. And we all said, that was fun. Let's do it again next year. And that year we gave away 750 and the next year it was 1500. And that's when I said, okay, this has gone beyond the realm of hobby. This is like a second job for me.
How about if we form a nonprofit, put together a board of directors, I'll go find a corporate sponsor. And we did. And that year we gave away 5,000 bikes. Sometimes you just, you follow your nose, and you do something that you think, oh, this, there's a need here. There are millions of kids in the U.S. who don't have a bicycle, can't afford one. Millions of kids who are unhealthy, diabetes, obesity. They're spending all their time in front of a screen. I thought, there are probably millions of bicycles sitting in garages that have been outgrown or aren't being used. What if we collect those, fix 'em up?
So now we're in 22 cities. We've given away 150,000 bicycles. We're now partnering with Target. So Target is giving us all of their return bikes, 30 to 40,000 bikes every year. And now we have a goal of being in a hundred cities and giving away a million bikes by the year 2030.
I don't know, I think we might be able to do it. Huh?
[00:19:47] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. You said you formed a board, so what did that early board look like and how did it view itself?
[00:19:56] Terry Esau: They always say there are two kinds of boards, like a working board or a governance board.
Usually when you start something from scratch it's generally a working board, right? Yeah. So, most of that early board was made up of people who were my friends, who I would go out and ride my bike with. And they loved bicycles, and they thought every kid should have a bicycle too. So, the board was mainly made up of people who were passionate about it and wanted to actually volunteer and help make it happen.
Then, over the course of several years, as the organization started to grow and blossom, now the board must transition from a working board and start becoming more of a governance board, to give direction and oversight to the organization as it gets bigger. But I think, if you're starting a nonprofit from scratch, you gotta have people who believe in the mission and are willing to invest some sweat equity in it, right?
It's hard though, I will say that. It's hard to start. It's hard to start a nonprofit from scratch, because you're inventing everything. Yeah, it's just flat out a lot of work.
[00:21:22] Tommy Thomas: So when you started Free Guitars for Kids, I guess you had a few learning lessons under your belt. How has that one gone?
[00:21:31] Terry Esau: It's interesting. So yeah, it was like, okay we figured out how to do this with bicycles. So, what if we just translate that to guitars? Because we go, I bet there are millions of guitars sitting in people's homes collecting dust that never come out of their case too. So, we were going, okay we'll start this and we'll get some celebrities to do a pro bono concert and we'll say, you can't buy a ticket to the concert.
The only way to get in is you have to bring a guitar to donate. And we thought, oh, that's a great idea. Then you go, okay, now we have to get celebrities to do this. And then where are we going to put the guitars and who's going to help us restring them? And then we ended up going, okay it's not exactly apples to apples comparison with bikes and with guitars.
So, we went out and we started talking with Fender and Gibson, guitar manufacturers, and said, would you want to partner with us? Would you want to help us make sure that they're under resourced kids who get a guitar? And they were like yeah, we'd like to be part of that. So now we're finding we're getting people who are donating dollars.
And they're helping us fund and Gibson and Fender are either giving us screaming deals on guitars. And sometimes like they just gave us 200 free guitars. Gibson did, which we gave away in Nashville a couple of weeks ago. And last week we gave away 150 some guitars in Alaska.
And now we're going to be doing it in Las Vegas. Going to be doing an event with a TV show down in Austin, Texas. In September, November, I can't remember. But yeah, so we learned a few things. So, with Free Bikes for Kids, there's the Mothership nonprofit, and then all the cities are like, they're independent nonprofits.
It's like a franchise model. So when we started Free Guitars for Kids, I go, I don't want to do that franchise model. It's just complicated. Yeah. And it doesn't make as much sense with the guitar thing anyhow. So it's just one nonprofit. But we're starting what we're calling our sounding boards in various cities.
So we're getting people together. Right now, we're just doing it in music cities. We have a sounding board in Nashville and one here in Minneapolis and Portland and, we'll be doing it in Chicago and LA and Austin and New York and wherever else. And those sounding boards, they're not board members, but they're advocates in the city who are going to help us put on events and give guitars away in those cities.
We're continuing to learn and like you said, we've realized with free bikes for kids, we made some mistakes and we're trying to remedy those and then with free guitars, we're trying to not make any of those mistakes and I'm sure we will, but whenever you try something big, you make mistakes, right?
It's not mistakes. Those things don't bother me that much. I figured everybody makes mistakes. We just keep trying, keep doing better, and yeah, we're making kids happy and healthy. Good.
[00:25:01] Tommy Thomas: If you had deep pockets, and you were on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank, and you had people like yourself presenting their case for nonprofit funding, what questions have you got to have solid answers for before you open your checkbook?
[00:25:23] Terry Esau: First of all, whatever you're pitching, it has to solve a problem and there has to be a resource to help solve that problem. Like for us, it was like, here's the problem. Kids in America are unhealthy, they're obese, there's poverty, so they can't afford a bicycle. Can help solve some of their health issues, not just physical health issues, but mental health issues, right?
I call my bike my carbon fiber therapist because, you're a cyclist. It's like I get on my bike, and I go for a ride. I could be having a bad day, but by the time I get done with my ride, all that stress has just been washed away. Yeah. So I'm Shark Tank. I think you'd have to go.
What's the problem? What's the solution? And then on top of that you have to go what's your strategy to bring the solution to the problem? What are the logistics? What are the resources that you need? People who give money to causes they really have to sell them on the fact that you are going to change the world in some small way, at least that's in the nonprofit world.
In the for profit world, then you have to prove to them, hey, you can make your money back on this investment. For us, we say, yeah, you're not making money back on us, but you should feel really good about what you're doing to change the lives of children.
[00:27:06] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anybody ever gave you?
[00:27:11] Terry Esau: One thing I would say is persistence is greater than talent. There are a lot of talented people in the world who don't accomplish anything. And there are a lot of people who are marginally talented who accomplish great things because they just don't give up.
Here's something my dad said to me when he was on his deathbed at 92. He pointed to himself, and he goes, Terry, up here, I'm 92. And then he pointed at his head, and he goes, in here, I'm 17. And I think that was true of my dad. Some people get old and they go, I've got nothing to offer.
They get grumpy and they get ornery and, get off my lawn. I think what my dad was saying is, if you want to stay young, first of all you can stay young mentally. You can't do that physically, but you can stay young mentally. And I think you do that primarily by staying a curious person. Curious people continue to learn all the way through their life into their old age.
So I think in some way, my dad was saying, don't settle, stay curious. Because life is too interesting to just go into autopilot mode, keep seeking for the adventure of life, keep learning, keep growing. My dad never said those words, but I think in some sort of way, I think that's what he was saying.
[00:29:02] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you tell?
[00:29:08] Terry Esau: Oh, what would I tell myself?
I think I would say don't be afraid of failing. Failure is not the worst thing that can happen to you. It's not trying is the worst thing. I don't think I was ever too afraid of failing.
But I think I worried a little bit more when I was younger. What do people think of us? Or if I do this, what will people think? That's one of the great beauties of getting older. I don't really care that much anymore. This is who I am, this is what I believe, this is what I think, this is how I'm choosing to live my life. You can disagree with it, and you have every right to, and I won't judge you for it, but I'm not going to let your view of me change what I think or how I choose to live my life and I think our culture has a lot of that going on, with social media and stuff, it's the comparison thing, yeah.
I think comparison is not a very useful concept, because everybody compares up, nobody compares down. Like, I've talked to my family about this a few times. Look at so and so, they just went on this vacation, and they just bought this or they bought that and go, yeah, you're comparing up.
Now let's compare down. We have so much more than so many other people. So I think in America, maybe it's part of a characteristic of capitalism. You have to have more and you have to have better. And so we always compare up. And I think if we compared down a little bit more often, we would have more gratitude, we would be more grateful for what it is that we do have.
We don't have as much as that guy who's the CEO of some Fortune 500 company, but we live better than most of the people in the world, right?
[00:31:23] Tommy Thomas: I want to thank Terry for taking time to be with us from what is obviously a very busy schedule. John Somerville, who was our guest for episodes 109 and 110 suggested Terry as a guest. I had no idea of the treat we were in for.
Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO
Be the Surprise – Spontaneous Elements of Faith
Blue Collar God / White Collar God
Free Bikes for Kidz
Free Guitars for Kids
TEDx Talks - Harnessing the power of restlessness | Terry Esau | TEDxMinneapolis
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:03] Kayla Bradham: I was the Green Bay Packers caterer, their bartender. I worked in the lunchroom. I worked in the dishwashing room, wherever they were. I was going to be sure to be there. And they really did have a great impact in my life. These are the years, we're talking about the early mid-nineties. I went to college at St. Norbert from ‘91 – ‘94. Packers were doing great.
Those guys invested in me. They helped me believe in myself. They spoke life into me. They told me that I was a hard worker and they saw me.
These guys didn't have to do that. There was nothing in their contract that said, be nice to the college kid. It's that these guys were guys and they cared, and they had a spirit of humanity and that really should be the message for all of us right now to not get too high on your high horse that you're always looking down, but instead pulling other people up with you.
[00:00:59] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Kayla Bradham. Kayla is the Executive Vice President of Sports Philanthropy Network. She wears a lot of hats. In addition to her day job with Sports Philanthropy Network, she serves on the boards of City on a Hill Tackle Hunger, the Souper Bowl of Caring, and we're spelling that S O U P E R Bowl, and she's going to give us a little bit more about that.
And then on the Michael Montgomery Foundation, the Heart of Michael. She's a member of the NFL Alumni Association, and last but the most important thing, she's a mother of eight children. She took her BA in Communications and Media and Theater from St. Norbert's College. Kayla, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:44] Kayla Bradham: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Before we jump into to your story, I want to know a little bit about your organization. Tell us about Sports Philanthropy Network.
[00:01:53] Kayla Bradham: About four and a half years ago, Tommy, my partner and I were trying to figure out how to use our collective experience, which is a lot of experience.
We're both pretty old to find a way to create social impact through sports. We realized that there were so many people, athletes, business executives, nonprofits who wanted to create impact, but they really didn't know each other or have a way to connect. So, we decided to start our own nonprofit sports philanthropy network to build stronger, healthier, and more inclusive communities through sports.
[00:02:30] Tommy Thomas: You’re four and a half years into this venture now.
Starting a nonprofit is just like starting a business. You invest everything into it. You work 15 hours a day. You put your legacy money into it.
[00:02:33] Kayla Bradham: Yes, sir. Booth's rolling. So far so good? Starting a nonprofit is just like starting a business. You invest everything into it. You work 15 hours a day. You put your legacy money into it, your life savings into it. But I always say if it's your vision, it's your mission.
[00:02:55] Tommy Thomas: Those that listen to us pretty regularly will know that I always open my questions with a question about someone's childhood and early life. And certainly, we'll lead with that today. But I think for the people that are listening, it'll be a little bit different response coming from you today.
One writer described Kayla's life story as a testament to resilience, determination, and the profound belief in the transformative power of sports. Yeah, take us into your background.
[00:03:23] Kayla Bradham: First of all, thank you. And that's a question that really is dear to my heart because it is my why. When I was a little girl my mom and I lived in extreme rural poverty.
And to give the listeners an idea of that, Tommy, some people will say, we're so poor, we didn't have a car and I'll come back and I'll say we were so poor my mom didn't have a driver's license. That means I paid somebody to drive me to college, right? When you're that little kid, I don't know, what is that second, third, fourth grade, and the teacher gives you the permission slip for band and sports, that's a big moment because then you're a big kid.
You can play sports and you can play band. I was so excited. I wanted to play the alto sax. I wanted to play baseball. And so, I raised my hand and told my teacher she gave me the wrong permission slip because I needed the baseball one, not the softball. And she said, Kayla, baseball is for boys.
Girls get softball. And already then, I was disappointed, but much more so when I went home excitedly and gave those permission slips to my mom. And she looked at me and she said, money doesn't grow on trees. You're not playing sports. You're not going to be in the band. That stuff costs money and we don't have it.
And that was the end of the conversation. I wasn't going to play the alto saxophone. I wasn't going to play softball, baseball. So, I went back to school the next day and I turned in those permission slips and my teacher said, Kayla, these aren't signed, you got to get them signed. And I looked at my teacher, Tommy, and one tear started coming down my eye and I said, yeah, money doesn't grow on trees.
And I don't know who, but somebody paid my registration fees for softball, and I was a third base and left field for the Boston Red Sox that summer. And I remember standing out on third base one summer afternoon saying God, if you're real, when I grow up, can you help me do this for other kids someday?
And that's, to me the power of putting anything you want out into the universe with faith, trusting that someday it'll come back to you and I'm 50 years old, and here I am.
[00:05:51] Tommy Thomas: The teacher that responded that day, you never got an inkling of who bought your registration?
[00:05:59] Kayla Bradham: You know what? I don't want to, and I'll tell you why. Because I was riding my bike to practice for the first day of practice, and I didn't have a glove, right? We didn't have money and on the way to practice I found a quarter on the sidewalk. So of course, I pick up that quarter and I keep on driving and then I go by a garage sale.
And at that garage sale, I find a old left handed leather Rawlings glove for a quarter. I went to my first practice with a baseball glove that I found the money for on the street. I don't want to know who paid my registration fees because what I learned in that moment is don't ask how or why, just believe that it's meant to be.
[00:06:49] Tommy Thomas: Take us on into your high school days.
[00:06:52] Kayla Bradham: Still poor, right? That part doesn't change. I started working full time when in the summer going into sixth grade. I used to ride my bike about, I don't know, 8 to 11 miles each way, taking care of dogs and kids and cleaning and just making 20 a day.
I learned really quick what it means to hustle, what it means to work hard. If you want something, don't take it for granted. Don't expect it - work for it.
And back then in the late 80s, mid 80s, I guess, that was good money. So I learned real quick what it means to hustle, what it means to work hard. If you want something, don't take it for granted. Don't expect it - work for it. That carried me into high school. By the time I got into high school, I was lifting weights every day.
I was a football cheerleader, a basketball cheerleader. I was the president of Students Against Drunk Driving. President of Key Club. I was the Board of Education representative for students. I was on the Power of Positive Students Committee. I was doing whatever I could by the time I got to high school to get into college.
The thing that I knew was that I was going to be in no shame in this, right? But if I didn't get out and get a college education, I was going to be living and working in that same small town of 8,000 people that I grew up in for the rest of my life. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I knew that for me to get the network that I needed to make my dreams come true.
I needed to get to college. So, in high school everything I did was geared around how am I getting college scholarships to get into the best school that I can?
[00:08:31] Tommy Thomas: And you got into the school and it happened to be near Green Bay Packer organization. That's where the Packers jumped into your life.
[00:08:39] Kayla Bradham: Yeah, so you know, you think, you talk about that. I was one of those pretty smart kids, right? So I had a perfect score in the ACT in science. I did really well on the ASVAB. And I got called into the guidance counselor's office in 1990. I was a junior in high school. And I thought they were going to tell me, based on your testing scores, you should go into this or that.
I didn't know if I wanted to be an engineer who designed bridges or go into sports media. And I was told that those were not good career choices for a girl and that I should be a teacher or a nurse.
I didn't know if I wanted to be an engineer who designed bridges or go into sports media. And I was told that those were not good career choices for a girl and that I should be a teacher or a nurse. I declared my major at St. Norbert in Secondary Education, which I changed after one semester and went there for two reasons.
My grandparents were married at the church that was on campus. And the Green Bay Packers had summer training camp there back in those days. And I knew if I wanted to go into sports media, that's how I was going to do it.
[00:09:39] Tommy Thomas: How did the Packers first enter your life?
[00:09:44] Kayla Bradham: They didn't have much choice in entering my life because I chose to work every job that they were at.
So again, you're talking about a kid who had to work. I worked four jobs all through college. I graduated in three and a half years. I'm really proud of that. That's my message to all the young people out there. You can do whatever you want if you work hard for it. So I was the Green Bay Packers caterer, their bartender.
I worked in the lunchroom. I worked in the dishwashing room, wherever they were. I was going to be sure to be there. And they really did have a great impact in my life. These are the years now we're talking about the early mid nineties. I went to college at St. Norbert from 91 to 94. Packers were doing great.
Those guys invested in me. They helped me believe in myself. They spoke life into me. They told me that I was a hard worker and they saw me and it helped me realize that athletes are people. We tend to make them idols. They're just regular guys going to work, doing their job. They're just like you and I, they put their socks on one foot at a time.
And when I learned that, I learned a lot about myself, that we're all people, we're all doing our best, none of us are perfect, we're just all trying to get our break.
[00:11:10] Tommy Thomas: I know when we talked last week, you mentioned that a couple of them got in your face a little bit and maybe pushed you a little bit.
[00:11:18] Kayla Bradham: Yeah, and I'm so grateful that they did. I use these examples because these were the guys that just really spoke to my heart. And it was, the great pastor, Reggie White, asking me if I got up and I prayed that morning, telling me that if I kept my faith and I looked to God, that God would look back to me, always doing this, guys like Gilbert Brown, who, one night he took me out for a steak dinner and I'm just saying if you're a college kid and you're working three jobs and you don't have money and somebody will do that for you it's huge.
Reggie White kept asking me if I got up and I prayed that morning, telling me that if I kept my faith and I looked to God, that God would look back to me.
Santana Dotson, Leroy Butler, these guys just, you. Breathing life in it goes so far. And again, it just goes back to, the fame means nothing. These guys didn't have to do that. There was nothing in their contract that said, be nice to the college kid. It's that these guys were guys and they cared and they had a spirit of humanity and that really should be the message for all of us right now to get too high on your high horse that you're always looking down, but instead pulling other people up with you.
++++++++++++++
[00:12:27] Tommy Thomas: So I mentioned the boards that you serve on, City on a Hill, the Souper Bowl of Caring, and Michael Montgomery Foundation. Tell us about those organizations, and I think they probably play into your overall life theme.
[00:12:41] Kayla Bradham: Yeah, they sure do. And you'll see a weave here. So, City on a Hill. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Milwaukee is America's fifth poorest city. One of our zip codes, our central zip codes has the highest incarceration rate in the United States of black men in every state, Tommy, black men are incarcerated at least twice the rate of white men in that zip code that I'm speaking about in particular, that rate is 12 to one.
So I'm really proud to serve on the board of directors for City on a Hill. They have a generation building mission to improve the conditions of childhood poverty one family at a time. What they do is they break the cycle of generational poverty. They create awareness and resources to end poverty in all its forms for urban families in Milwaukee through faith-based initiatives.
[00:13:51] Tommy Thomas: The Souper Bowl of Caring. I know I've heard of that. And y'all seem to do pretty good raising pretty good money there. We'll take us into that. How did it get started?
[00:14:01] Kayla Bradham: The Souper Bowl of Caring really under the umbrella of Tackle Hunger is an amazing organization, literally tackling hunger throughout the United States.
One of their big events is the Souper Bowl of Caring, where churches, schools, local groups, and individuals hold a Souper Bowl, a S O U P E R Bowl of Caring, or a food drive to support their local food charities. Again, Tom, when we talk about Milwaukee being the fifth poorest city in the United States, it's important to talk about disease disparity.
Right now, Louisiana and Mississippi ranked number one and number two in the country for disease disparity. Wisconsin ranks number three. These issues aren't just central to me. These issues are all throughout the country and the biggest ways that I can find to get involved and create an impact is to use my voice, my social media platform, my experience.
To speak out and say, where are we giving? How are we giving? Protein bars and cereal bars, super easy. Give, we go to the grocery store every week. I don't know, in my family, I have eight kids. I go to the grocery store twice a week. Is it really too much to pick up an extra box of protein bars and hand some to a teacher, some to the homeless and some to the food pantry? I don't think so.
I have eight kids. I go to the grocery store twice a week. Is it really too much to pick up an extra box of protein bars and hand some to a teacher, some to the homeless and some to the food pantry? I don't think so.
[00:15:24] Tommy Thomas: And then the Michael Montgomery Foundation. I like that story because it has a contemporary ring to it.
[00:15:31] Kayla Bradham: Yes. Yes. Michael Montgomery. Based on the fact that it's November in 2023, many of your listeners are going to remember that incident that happened last year with Damar Hamlin.
By the way, I'll just put in a little caveat here to say that the NFL did an amazing job in the fact that he's still living because those circumstances, the statistics are not good. So I have to give props to the NFL for that. But Michael Montgomery had a similar situation in high school. He was a basketball player at the time, by the way, his mom is the renowned Rosie Montgomery from the WNBA.
So for all my female sports fans right here. I'm talking about Rosie's son, Michael. Michael had a DeMar Hamlin type of incident in high school. He was able to go on to play six years with the Green Bay Packers. He was aware at that point that he had this heart condition, just like DeMar Hamlin had. And when Michael was looking at which foundation to start for himself, many professional athletes decide that they want to start a foundation and give back.
Michael Montgomery decided to create the Heart of Michael Foundation to provide heart screenings for underserved youth. So I hope that your listeners are able to take all of these things and say, Kayla, an underserved girl growing up in rural poverty, used that experience to build a network with the Green Bay Packers, to work in a faith-based organization, to end generational poverty, erase racial residue, tackle hunger, and help underserved youth have the same opportunities that money and wealth take for granted. That's how it ties together.
+++++++++++
[00:17:21] Tommy Thomas: Aside from the Packers who poured into you early, have there been mentors in your life who have either pushed or pulled you along?
[00:17:29] Kayla Bradham: You know what? I'm so incredibly blessed. I feel like everywhere I go, people are mentoring me or teaching me lessons.
And the reason I say that is because not every experience that we have in life is good. I've had bad bosses. I've worked with gossipy women, backbiting women and men. The heart of man is desperately wicked. Who can know it? So you learn. And from every person that I worked with who was jealous or trying to use me for my network or whatever, you learn from that.
And then you learn from the people who lean in. And I guess what I learned is it's better to have four quarters in your pocket than a hundred pennies. And that's a message that my eight kids hear a lot. It's a message that their friends hear a lot. And it's a message that I use oftentimes when I'm speaking, keep your circle tight.
Stick with the people who are loyal, find the mentors who are loyal and be loyal. Always work for the people underneath you instead of the people that are over top of you.
[00:18:33] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice a mentor has ever given you?
[00:18:39] Kayla Bradham: That's a good question. I feel like I've gotten so many.
I think I'll say this personally, and I'll say this professionally, I think I've got to go if I'm going to be authentic, and I don't mean to offend anybody, but if I'm going to be authentic, I need to stick with Reggie White. And when he'd say, if you keep your face turned towards God, God will keep his face turned towards you.
And if you choose to turn your face away from God, God will let you. And that really has stuck with me in the way that I do business, in the way that I handle relationships. I think what I learned from that is if you're going to do business, it's got to be a win for everybody involved. And I think I took that from Reggie, keeping your face toward the right people.
Personally, when I was in college doing this bartending stuff, I had the opportunity to bartend for George W. Bush at St. Norbert College. And when he asked me if I wanted his autograph, I actually said no, because people were just people, and I didn't need somebody's autograph. Like I was good at my job.
I was happy to lean in and be the best person for that job. And he said to me, I think that's all right. I don't hear that very often, but I think that's all right. I think that was really good advice because we don't need to kiss anybody's butt in business. We need to be ourselves.
We need to be proud of who we are. I was very proud of the fact that I worked four jobs through school. I didn't need his autograph. I was doing my job. And I think we should all take pride in the work we do no matter what level, what scale, right? I was a college student bartending. I wasn't ashamed of that.
I knew that it was one of my other four jobs. So be proud of who you are. Yeah.
[00:20:28] Tommy Thomas: So what's been the biggest challenge that you've faced as a leader?
[00:20:34] Kayla Bradham: That’s really easy for me. I know that one real quick. It just might not be a very popular answer, but it's certainly being a woman. My partner is a Jewish man and oftentimes I'm assumed that I'm his secretary or that they need to speak with him.
Because he's the decision maker. And I was just in a conversation actually a couple of hours ago around this very topic and that's it's 2023. And if people don't know you, they will assume that the man is the boss, and the woman is the worker bee. And I am by no means what I consider myself a feminist.
But I would consider myself somebody who's equal or interested and believes in equal opportunity and always hire the best person for a job. I would never want a job because I'm a woman. I would never also want to be treated less than because I'm a woman.
[00:21:30] Tommy Thomas: At what point in your career did you begin to feel comfortable as Kayla? Did you feel like you were in your leadership zone and that was good?
[00:21:40] Kayla Bradham: Yeah. So, Tommy, when this podcast gets recorded, I don't know if it'll be on video or not, but if it's not, there's the gray in my hair. Here's my nails that aren't done. I'm not wearing makeup. I'm a mom with eight kids.
And that's my identity. I'm very comfortable being my authentic self. I don't need to put on a show or an outward appearance. And I wish more people had this sense of self love. I'm 50 years old. I will not put on four inch heels, five, six inch heels. There's a point where the confidence comes from knowing your worth, right?
And I know I've spent 30 years owning multiple businesses, working hard, hitting the corporate America glass ceiling. I know who I am. I'm proud of who I am. It's not how I impress you with fancy nails and hair and makeup and fake eyelashes. It's about my heart. And I hope that answers your question.
I hope it inspires everybody here to let your heart show, let your light show, let your personality show, and that's what makes you beautiful.
[00:23:00] Tommy Thomas: I got a piece of advice from a guy when I was probably 21 or 22 years old and he was a Jewish fellow that I respected and I was talking to him one day and I don't remember the issue we were discussing, but I remember his advice.
He says, Tommy, if you're a three-ring circus, you be a great three ring circus, but if you're only a one ring circus, you be the best one ring circus on the circuit. And I remember that counsel and I thought, I'm probably not a three-ring circus, but I can be a good one ring circus.
[00:23:33] Kayla Bradham: That's right. Yeah. That's right. What a great, powerful message. I love that. Thank you.
[00:23:39] Tommy Thomas: What's the hardest decision you've ever had to make?
[00:23:43] Kayla Bradham: Okay. So I'm going to be really vulnerable on this. Okay. Because it's not a story that I love to share, but I'm going to be honest with you. I was at a crux in my life as a single mom.
And again, eight children, right? That's a heavy burden of responsibility and a fun fact. And I feel like I always have to say it, for anybody listening, all my kids have the same dad. So please don't jump to conclusions about women who have, I have children and it really is none of your business and it doesn't matter, but I'll share it anyway.
Here I am now trying to figure out how am I going to feed these eight children? And I had just been offered a position of being a general manager at a Starbucks. Or I had been offered a job at a young fitness center company as a cleaner working part time. Now, I had owned a cleaning company business in the past.
I knew how to clean. One of those sounds way better than the other. When you're talking about feeding kids, right? And that's huh, take the Starbucks role. That's good money, benefits, whatever. The difficult decision for me was if I took that GM role at Starbucks, I probably wasn't going to go any higher.
It would be really hard in corporate America to do anything else. But if I banked on myself and knew how hard I worked. I knew I could be the best cleaner that company had ever seen and get promoted and who knows how many times promoted. Difficult decision.
I took the hard decision, started out as a cleaner, worked three other jobs at the point to keep things going as I got promoted. But I got promoted five or six times in those first three years with that company. To the point that I had a very generous six figure income doing something that I loved and that was creating hope and possibility and helping people be unstoppable in their fitness goals.
[00:25:45] Tommy Thomas: So I'm sure in that organization, as you rose, you managed or you led teams. What's the biggest lesson you've learned about team leadership?
[00:25:55] Kayla Bradham: Two things. One be a 360-degree leader. There's a great book about that, but lead up, lead down, lead across. Every position has an opportunity to lead.
When I was a cleaner, it was hard to see myself as a leader. Because that's really the lowest on the food chain, maybe except for kids club. I don't know, but you can still lead. And so if I was going to be a cleaner, I was going to be the best cleaner that company ever saw. Just so happened one day I had a magic eraser, and I was cleaning the footboards at the front desk and the owner of the company who I didn't know was the owner comes in and sweat clothes and says, what are you doing?
And I said there's scuff marks here and they're driving me crazy, but let me check you in. He said, I'm actually the owner of this company and we don't have magic erasers. And I said, I brought it from home because the scuff marks were driving me crazy. Promotion, right? Be your best. So that would be one 360-degree leadership.
Number two: middle management is really hard, Tommy. You're trying to get promoted. You want the people below you to love you. You want the people above you to love you. When you get put in between that rock and the hard place, remember who you work for. You don't work for the people above you. You work for the teams you lead and when in doubt, do what's right for the people below you and that will get you promoted time after time.
[00:27:26] Tommy Thomas: Have you had a ‘I wish I had started this earlier in my life’ moment?
[00:27:34] Kayla Bradham: Yeah, tons of them. I wish I would have started investing in my 401k earlier. I wish that I would have gone to therapy earlier. Life is hard for everybody.
I've never met anybody who doesn't have trauma in their life. And I think we spend so much time trying to get our heart and our mind to sync up. And there's this always this battle of, I'm thinking this, but there's no way that's right. But in my heart, I feel this.
And I feel like if we maybe all just took time to build that really tight network, that inner circle, get a mentor, go to therapy, unravel some of those traumas. I heard it described really well. And it was like, if our life is like a big plate of spaghetti, pulling out those noodles one at a time to get to the meatballs.
Like just pull out that tangled mess of noodles, get to the meatballs. And I wish I would have done that sooner. I think I would have been a better mom when my kids were younger. I think I would have been a better wife. I think I would have been a better daughter. I think I would have been a better friend.
We get caught up in ourselves and our own trauma that we forget that it's possible to unravel it.
[00:29:02] Tommy Thomas: What's the greatest lesson you've learned from your children?
[00:29:06] Kayla Bradham: My children teach me so many things, Tommy. What I see in this generation is that children really are the hope of a future. My children are slow to judge, and I see this with their friends too, right?
I'm a Gen Xer. I remember when I was in high school, and I'm just gonna be really blunt, I hope I don't offend anybody, it's not my goal, but when I was in high school, everything was gay. Broccoli was gay, homework was gay, gay was on every TV show, whatever, and it was never used good. My children aren't like that.
They don't use words that would hurt people for things that don't matter. They're kind. This is again, not just my kids, it's the whole generation. Very understanding and I don't mean apathetic by any means. They are opinionated, but they're not jerks. And I feel like that's something that us Gen Xers, we missed when we were their age.
We were cool when we put other people down, we were king of the mountain beating our chest at the expense of the nerds. And I have air quotes for anybody who's not seeing this, the nerds, the geeks, the not cool people, we were banging our chest being better. My kids are not doing that, neither are their friends.
[00:30:33] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself something, what would it be?
I would tell a younger version of myself – You are going to be OK. Hard work pays off.
[00:30:40] Kayla Bradham: You're going to be okay. I would tell myself the hard work pays off and I would say this to anybody. If you're listening to this and you see my social media accounts or you see what I do people tend to jump to the she's entitled or I don't know how she knows all these athletes or how she has all these connections, but you know what?
I'm a little kid who grew up in a town with 8,000 people in poverty. I grew up in a home where we didn't have a car. I grew up in a home without a dad. I grew up severely, physically, sexually, and emotionally abused. At some point, we need to just decide for ourselves if we're going to be victims or if we're going to be victorious over our trauma.
At some point, we need to just decide for ourselves if we're going to be victims or if we're going to be victorious over our trauma. I chose to be victorious.
I chose to be victorious, and I tell myself that was the right decision. Just go out and forge your own path. Be the person you were created to be. Stand in your own shoes and have the faith that if you work hard enough and you're trying to do what's right
[00:31:45] Tommy Thomas: What do you understand about your life today that you didn't understand a year ago?
[00:31:52] Kayla Bradham: Really great question. I think what I understand about life today is that if you dig in your heels stubbornly, it's really hard to climb up the mountain. A year ago and again, having a nonprofit 15-hour days, your life savings, whatever, you can work so hard and feel stuck. But what I learned is when you keep working those 15-hour days and you keep reading books and you keep building your network and you keep trying to do the right thing and you keep moving your boots up the mountain.
Eventually, you hit the top of the hill, and it's a lot easier to just hop in a sled and slide on down. After four and a half years with the nonprofit, we finally hit the top of the mountain. We finally had the support coming in. We finally are starting to see the fruits of all of that labor, so don't give up.
You get to a point when you're climbing up a mountain that if you jump off, you're gonna die. Keep climbing, don't die. That's what I learned this year.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:33:07] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics that you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.
Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Sports Philanthropy Network
Heart of Michael Foundation
City on a Hill
Tackle Hunger – The Souper Bowl of Caring
NFL Alumni Association
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] John Ashmen: You need to be a board chair who understands the board role. So, intellect, respect, humility. Again, I think those are important. There are a lot of Board Chairs out there who really don't know the role of a Board Chair in a nonprofit.
I've seen so many organizations that are in turmoil because the board chair has entered and sees himself or herself as the person who is in charge of the organization. And the Board Chair is only a spokesperson for the entire board.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:00:37] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with John Ashmen, Past President & CEO of Citygate Network. John was named President & CEO of Citygate Network in 2007 and served for 16-plus years. He stepped down as president on July 31st, 2023. When we recorded this conversation, John, the new Citygate CEO, and the board were in the final weeks of the transition to new leadership. From my perspective, the transition was well-planned and executed.
John will share some of that with us. The Citygate Network has over 300 member organizations. So, you can imagine the number of leadership transitions John has observed. And the number of boards he's interacted with. Let's pick up on the conversation where we left off last week.
If it’s not too personal, what was going on in your heart? Obviously, you're going through a transition now. You told your board at some time. Can you give us a little bit of backdrop to how that happened and how it's gone?
[00:01:48] John Ashmen: Yeah. So I've basically had three 15-year careers. I was 15 years as the CEO of Christian Camp and Conference Center in New Jersey. We've already talked about that. Then 15 years as the COO, Vice President, Director of Member Services at Christian Camp and Conference Association. Most of the time we called it Christian Camping International, and we were U.S. and did a lot of work and getting CCI Russia off the ground.
And I was on the board of CCI Canada, Christian Camping International Canada. So that was my camping association career. And now 16 years as the President & CEO of Citygate Network, which used to be called the Association of Gospel Rescue Missions. And you just get to a point where you look at it, and think I'm turning the same pile over. We have conferences that are considered the best in the industry because we're creative and flexible. Our number of people coming to our events continues to increase. This past year we had the highest attendance we've ever had which is unusual in a world where most associations are seeing a membership decline. Ours is increasing and attendance is flat. Ours is increasing. And that's a good time to leave. You want to leave on a high note and be able to hand something positive to someone.
And so I just looked at it and said, you have two questions. One of them is how much longer can I make this last? I will be 71 on my last day on the job as president of Citygate Network, and I probably could make it last another five years. The board sure didn't want me to go.
There was lamenting and concern because of all the progress we've made and where we are in so many areas. And I didn't want that question to be the one that drove me. How much longer can I make this last? The question you ask, is there somebody else who wants to take the wheel and chart a little bit different course or maintain the course we're on and can be fresh eyes, fresh perspectives, and a good foot for the pedal to keep us going? So, I let the board know two years prior that in the next year, we would want to start dusting off our succession plan.
And it was basically 18 months early and I trusted it to the executive committee for the first six months and then one year prior just broke it out to the entire board and we had a plan already in place and I suggested people for the search committee. I gave my board a list of 12 organizations that we've worked with that were search firms and said, you can use a search firm, you don't have to use a search firm.
And here's a variety of them that take different perspectives and I told him there are two things that I want to be involved in. One, I want to be involved in the approval of the job profile because I'm the only one who really knows what it takes to run this organization. The search firm they selected had a different idea and they started going that way until I pointed out the problems that already were being created and they said you were right. Let's go ahead and put you back into this process.
So I gave the final approval and made some corrections and changes to the job profile and said the other thing I want to know is when you get down to your final candidate before you announce let me know who it is because the number of acquaintances I have and the places I've gone and spoken and the boards I'm on it's a good chance that I know this person and may know something about this person that you don't know. Like they're about to be indicted or something. And so they let me do that as well. And we've had a pretty good journey through this.
We have a three-month overlap. A transition is like a handoff in a relay race and it's done while both runners are running. So I am running force with the baton in my hand until that day of the handoff. And right now my successor is running and he's getting up to speed with where I am.
And then I will slow my pace and be around as President Emeritus to help fill in some holes for the first month or two. The board wants me to remain as President Emeritus indefinitely, it sounds. I'm not sure how long that will be feasible. But that's the plan and it seems to be going well.
[00:06:52] Tommy Thomas: Going back maybe a little bit earlier in your career. I'm always curious as to when people turn the corner and maybe they find their professional voice. They get comfortable in their leadership skin. Can you think back over your career to when you segued into that?
[00:07:13] John Ashmen: I don't think there was a breakthrough, Tommy, at any point where it's okay, now I think I know what's going on.
If you have people following you, you have probably found your leadership voice.
I followed in my father's footsteps. He was certainly a leader and a hero well known in the Delaware Valley, which is South Jersey, Southeastern Pennsylvania, Delaware, Northeastern Maryland, that kind of area. And I just did what came natural and what I observed him doing. I think a lot of it comes with do you have people following you? And if that's the case, then I think you have found your voice. There was a camp teacher that I always thought was fun. It goes there they go. And I must catch them for, I am their leader. That's not what you want. And, because I had great responses to the things I started, and the ideas I had, and the initiatives I launched it just seemed to follow that what was happening was what was supposed to be happening. I think at Christian Camping, I probably perfected those skills Christian Camping Conference Association, when I became the MC for all the conferences for about 15 years, and just realized that we were making progress, and the processes were all firing on all cylinders.
And so there wasn't, like I said, one time, I think it just increased. And my confidence increased as the positive responses increased.
[00:08:46] Tommy Thomas: If you were to invite me to a staff meeting next week of your senior leadership team and at some point, we excused you and I asked them these two questions.
What's the most rewarding aspect of working for John? And what's the most difficult aspect of working for John? What kind of responses do you think I would get?
[00:09:11] John Ashmen: We actually had some of those kinds of questions asked at one time. The one that they would say, probably what's the most enjoyable aspect is that we make work fun.
There are no routines that are drudgery. We are always looking at something new and my director of meetings and events would say John is full of surprises. It's fun to do a conference because you have an idea of what's going to happen and all of a sudden, he springs something on you and you go, yeah, I think we can do that.
And it so it just becomes fun to work and see where we're going. I think the other thing that was said when this question was asked to our staff was we are seeing results my vice president and director of member services said I've stayed here as long as I have because the things that we say we're going to do in our mission statement and our vision statement, we are actually doing, and we're seeing these things accomplished.
My Vice President says you're the best boss I ever had. You're also the hardest boss I ever had because you expect everything to be done with excellence.
So when you can have that kind of response, that's probably the most difficult thing is that we don't let up. We keep going and we keep moving forward. And I am, as I said, an expressive driver and my Vice President says you're the best boss I ever had. You're also the hardest boss I ever had because you expect everything to be done with excellence.
And it comes back to the sign that my father had over his lathe in his machine shop. First Corinthians 14:40, let all things be done decently and in order. And so that is something that we look at. We send out every publication as if we're sending it to the EPA, Environmental Evangelical Press Association, not the Environmental EPA.
Even though it's an association we've won awards for best in class for our publications. And the hardest thing again, just to reiterate, is the demand to have things done well and do them over until they're done right.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:11:20] Tommy Thomas: If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of the Shark Tank and they were asking for early-stage investments, what questions would you need solid answers to before you would open your purse strings?
[00:11:30] John Ashmen: How much have you committed to this personally? There's a lot of charlatans who come around once you invest in something they think might work. Show me your success and how it's worked. And then show me the possibilities beyond what you are stating is the success rate in this.
I just want to see that there's a door to an area that you have not even discovered or explored yet. And so that's important for me.
[00:12:05] Tommy Thomas: What about if you were consulting and you were creating a dashboard to get at a nonprofit organization's overall health? What would some of your dials be?
[00:12:16] John Ashmen: The temperature of the staff, you got to start with your personnel and is everybody there enjoying being there and is everybody there? Looking at the possibilities, do they believe in what's happening? When I was hired to take this position, it was the organization at its own admittance the board telling me was in bad shape.
I didn't have a job description. I was handed something that was 25 mandates that came out of a survey that the consulting firm had done. The first was we need a new strategic mission and vision. The second one, we need a new business plan that's profitable. If you're going to start working for an organization and those are the number one and number two things you're basically building I would say, is there a vision for where this organization can go and do the people realize it? Do they embrace it? And can they tie everything that they're doing that particular day to that vision? We have KPAs and KRAs, Key Result Areas, KPIs, I should say, Key Result Areas, KP KKRAs, and these indicators that we look at and I can go around in my organization here and say what are you working on right now and where does this fit in our strategic map?
And is this something that is in which line is this on? And I think once you're seeing the people understand their role in moving an organization forward, not just building widgets. I think that's critical. And then the finances are there. Are you financially viable?
Is this something you'd go on to that? I just also look at, what is it we're doing? Are we selling the invisible or are we selling a product? It's much easier when you sell a product. There's a book, Harry Beckwith, I just mentioned, Selling the Invisible, at associations that I've been working at for the last 30 years, you really sell something that's invisible.
If I were in tire manufacturing, you could come and you could run your fingers through the tread on the tires and you could see the wear and tear on used, and you know what you're buying. Here, you're buying a promise that we can assist you and be a resource to you. Programs, products and services.
And so you have to agree that what you think you're going to get is what you will get before you sign up. And we've been able to deliver on those products.
[00:15:09] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to board service for a minute. Obviously, you report to a board, and you serve on several boards. When you think of an ideal board chair what words and phrases come to your mind?
[00:15:21] John Ashmen: You need to be a board chair who understands the board role. So, intellect, respect, humility. Again, I think those are important. There are a lot of board chairs out there who really don't know the role of a board chair in a nonprofit. You may have a corporate model where they have a Board Chair and a CEO and a President and they all have different roles and a nonprofit, the Board Chair has to realize that they are not the boss.
I've seen so many organizations that are in turmoil because the board chair has entered in and sees himself or herself as the person who is in charge of the organization.
And I've seen so many organizations that are in turmoil because the board chair has entered in and sees himself or herself as the person who is in charge of the organization. And the board chair is only a spokesperson for the entire board. They also have to be a good collaborator and communicator.
That's critical as well, because if they are going to move the organization forward, it has to be done in harmony and the board chair is again, not the person who's in charge. They're simply the spokesperson for the entire board. And once they understand that and can move on, they'll be successful.
[00:16:41] Tommy Thomas: What does your working relationship look like with you and your board chair?
Since I've been here, I’ve probably had 10 different board chairs in 16 years. We change board chairs on a regular basis. And that has been very helpful.
[00:16:48] John Ashmen: I've had let's see, since I've been here, probably I'm just going to ballpark it, 10 different board chairs in 16 years. We change board chairs on a regular basis. And that has been very helpful for the organization. There are some organizations that say, boy, we've been fortunate. We've had the same board chair for the last 20 years. And I see in those situations, you have great communication, and predictability, but also have a lot of great stagnation. And so the board chair has to be somebody who's communicative and understands where they're going. I've had some really good board chairs. The difficult ones are the ones who still took them a while to understand that they weren't in charge, but we got that settled pretty quickly, and then others who were just hard to get ahold of. I work in a national organization, actually international, we're the U.S., Canada, Caribbean. My Board Chair can be 2,000 miles away from me. And if I don't have somebody that will pick up the phone when I call, and realize that, hey, even though I've had a hard day's work in my own organization this is my opportunity, and I've signed up for this to be communicated here, so I think that's important as well somebody who's we're able to have good communications.
[00:18:17] Tommy Thomas: So how often do you meet with your board chair, either formally or informally?
[00:18:20] John Ashmen: I don't think this is a good sample right now because we're going through succession. And with the succession, there's a lot of stuff going on. But normally, before this time, I would probably talk to my board chair twice a month.
And our board meetings for the longest time, were two times a year. And then we added and those two times were three-day meetings. So, we had two three-day meetings where everybody flew in from all over North America. And then we added, about four years ago, three years ago maybe, we added two more meetings via Zoom and that makes it four meetings per year.
So, four meetings per year are when I talk to the board chair, and twice a month after that and they're usually not long conversations. They're maybe sometimes three or four minutes and then we're done.
[00:19:20] Tommy Thomas: Who sets the agenda for your board meeting?
[00:19:24] John Ashmen: I do. I set the agenda for the board meeting because I'm the one who knows what needs to be done and where we're going and what steps and processes have to be done. It’s funny you asked that question because the last thing I did before I picked up the phone to call you here was send out the agenda for my July 25th board meeting to my executive committee and said, this is going to be the agenda. Let me know if you have any questions and if we want to talk about anything.
Most of the items on the agenda will not be a surprise because there are things that were carryovers from previous meetings or things that they know have happened at this point. But yeah, I set the agenda.
[00:20:04] Tommy Thomas: What about term limits for board members? What's been your experience or observations there on best practices?
[00:20:13] John Ashmen: There are different kinds of boards where different kinds of situations work better. I don't run a local ministry. I don't run a local nonprofit where you want to have on your board, the local banker, the local head of the hospital, the local owner of the hardware store, or whatever it happens to be.
I work at an international association, and it's a representative association. My board members are made up of practitioners in the industry. So, I have a board of 15, and all but three of them are rescue mission leaders. And so that's a little bit different. I don't have somebody who's coming in from the perspective of being an attorney, somebody who's coming in from the perspective of being in management, somebody else who's coming in who understands supply chain or whatever it is.
And they're all bringing a different area of expertise. The lion's share of the people I work with all lead rescue missions, and they have one profession. And they're representative. They're not brought on for their expertise in an area. They're brought on to represent their peers. So, in my world, I've insisted that the board needed to be three years on and you're done.
We don't even have the opportunity for a second three-year term, which most revolving boards have. You come on to our board and you're on for three years and then you're off. And we have others come in. When you have a representative board and there are 75 people in one particular district that are eligible for the board.
Most of them would want to be on the board at some time, I would think, because they're leaders. And they get to know that, hey, there's another term coming up where maybe I could be on that board. If you are on for three years, and then you get to another three years you got six years, and if you had a couple of those, you only get two or three people from that whole district ever to be a representative. So that's how I work it. I like a revolving board with one term of three years and it works for me.
++++++++++++++++
[00:22:38] Tommy Thomas: Maybe this is a broader question or maybe a more high-level question. A lot of people talk about bringing younger people onto boards, people in their thirties and forties.
When you think of boards, I guess in an American sense, it's usually a bunch of men and they're usually older. Maybe speak to that idea of diversification on a board in terms of wisdom and experience and what all that means.
[00:23:05] John Ashmen: If you're having a board that's overstaying a corporate fund or stock investments, you want the oldest, wisest people you can get.
You don't want to bring a millennial in and say, hey, what kind of creative ideas do you have? We can play with this money. That's not what makes sense there. I think boards have to be a mosaic of their community and the people that they serve. And so that includes gender diversity, racial diversity, size of organization diversity, all of that kind of thing has to be included.
Rescue mission Boards should be a mosaic of the community they serve. That includes gender, racial, age – diversity of all kinds must be included.
But I will also tell missions and my world rescue missions that your board needs to have on their people who have been through a program and understand what it's like to have been homeless or something like that. You don't want to make your whole board that way, but you want to have perspectives that represent that.
And I also push for age diversity as well. You don't want to have people, all people who are baby boomers on a board. You're going to be shocked when all of a sudden you get your first millennial and find out that your positions don't line up anywhere near what the positions are that they would hold.
And so, I think you need to gradually bring some of those folks on so you can adapt to perspectives that are changing every day in the world around us. That's certainly something that's important. I applaud those who bring somebody onto the board who is in their late twenties, early thirties, but not just somebody who has no idea what they want to do in life.
Somebody who understands where they're going and has some goals of their own. And yeah, I push for that all the time.
[00:24:58] Tommy Thomas: Somebody once said you need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does. Your thoughts on that philosophy?
[00:25:11] John Ashmen: Yeah, I have been that person on my board but I'm the one who's asking the tough questions. I've got 15 board members and there certainly always is somebody like that. They learn to ask the question as long as they ask them in the right way looking for the right thing, not just to be disagreeable. I welcome it.
And it challenges me to make sure I have the answers in place. Yeah, I will always take somebody like that. I'd rather have people like that than people who aren't really engaged and rarely talk at a meeting. Fortunately, I have a pretty good hand in helping to pick the board.
I don't select them, but I make strong recommendations and so I get people who I know will be question-askers to begin with.
[00:26:01] Tommy Thomas: This is maybe more on a local board than it would apply to your board, but any thoughts on the board and risk management?
[00:26:07] John Ashmen: Risk management is certainly something we all have to keep in mind these days.
There are risks at every corner. Going back to that idea of surrounding yourself with better people than you are, we have resource colleagues that we go to all the time when these risks come up. And as you can imagine, there are huge risks when it comes to running a rescue mission, or a street mission, or a city mission. And we're always mindful of those things.
[00:26:43] Tommy Thomas: You get a call next week from somebody who's been asked to join a nonprofit board. What questions are you telling them to make sure they have answered in their mind and heart?
[00:26:57] John Ashmen: First thing is, why do they want you? Have they told you why they want you? Have they been up front? It used to be that people were asked for one of the three W's. Wealth, wisdom, or worth. Wealth, wisdom, or work. They want you because you have a construction team at your disposal, and you can work and build things or whatever it is.
Or it’s your wisdom, you're very wise on other boards and notice for that. Or it’s you’re going to support. Is there a reason why they're asking you? And then can you support the ministry long-term? Or the organization, whatever. If it's not a ministry of nonprofit, of sub-court, can you support this and would you support it after you're done, or is it just a temporary thing? And the other question I was asking would can you fire the CEO if things weren't going well? Do you have that ability, capacity? Or if, oh my, I don't know, he's a good friend, I'd hate to do that. If you can't fire the CEO, then you shouldn't be on the board.
[00:28:08] Tommy Thomas: Wrap-up question. Maybe two wrap-up questions. One, if you could tell a younger version of yourself something, what would that be?
[00:28:18] John Ashmen: The first thing is listen to your son. Invest in Apple. Back when it was $7.92 a share. That's the first thing. My son works for Apple Corporate. They were paying him in stock, I think, initially.
Listen as much as you speak. Let others talk and hear them out. Don’t assume you know what their mindset is. Make sure you give people the benefit of the doubt.
Listen as much as you speak. That was probably one of the lessons that took a long while to learn but let others talk and hear them out, don't just assume you know what their mindset is, and always make sure that you're giving people the benefit of the doubt.
[00:28:57] Tommy Thomas: If you had a do-over in life, what would it be?
[00:29:03] John Ashmen: I really don't know. Maybe keep moving up in housing. I've stayed in the same house for such a time and all of my peers have moved up three or four houses, for your long-term investment. I don't know, that's a personal thing, but as far as organizationally I don't think I have one.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:29:25] Tommy Thomas: You're in a good place. Thank you so much for your time today and for the insights you've shared with us. And I wish you the best as you make this transition.
[00:29:36] John Ashmen: Thank you. I appreciate it.
[00:29:38] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website. www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics that you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.
Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Citygate Network Website
Invisible Neighbors – John Ashmen
Selling the Invisible – Harry Beckwith
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Citygate Network Website
Invisible Neighbors – John Ashmen
Selling the Invisible – Harry Beckwith
[00:00:00] John Ashmen: I think that's always important, that you have people that tell you the truth. And, we have different places where that happens. It's not just in the work environment, but also in small groups and fellowship groups and things like that.
We have the opportunity to either take their advice or not take their advice. You can surround yourself with great people and they can tell you the truth. If you don't listen to it and take their advice, then you don't emerge any better than you were when you went in.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:30] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is John Ashman, the CEO at Citygate Network. Prior to Citygate, John was the Chief Operating Officer at the Christian Camp and Conference Association, giving him a total of almost 30 years in association leadership. John has led Citygate through a reassessment, a relocation, a restaffing, a refocusing, a rebranding, and then ultimately through the pandemic.
John has led Citygate through a reassessment, a relocation, a restaffing, a refocusing, a rebranding, and then ultimately through the pandemic.
Through all of this, the Citygate Network membership has grown by almost a third. In addition to his day job, John is a prolific writer, speaker, and board member of several nonprofit organizations. John, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:12] John Ashmen: Thank you, Tommy. Good to be with you.
[00:01:15] Tommy Thomas: Before I jump too deep in, is there a short story about how you got into association leadership?
[00:01:23] John Ashmen: I was a camp director in New Jersey, a youth camp that was located halfway between Philadelphia and Atlantic City, had about 15,000 people a year come through on all of our programs.
It's New Jersey, a very populated state, and the whole Delaware Valley is quite crowded. And we did camping programs up in Maine and over in Europe as well. And being in that camping world gave me visibility. And I went on the board of Christian Camp and Conference Association. At some point, one of the people who was also on the board at that time ended up taking the position of president of that association and gave me an invitation to come and also be on that team. So that's where I served those years as Vice President and Director of Member Services, which is essentially the COO position at Christian Conference Association. That was the launch.
[00:02:20] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about your childhood that was formative? Were y'all big campers as kids? What stands out there?
My father had a mantra that was pretty much built into his life philosophy and that was never let school stand in the way of your kid's education.
[00:02:31] John Ashmen: My father had a mantra that was pretty much built into his life philosophy and that was never let school stand in the way of your kid's education. And so, we would take train trips across the U S and in the middle of September and October when some of my friends were in school and somehow, I always was able to do it and I never got in trouble and I guess he didn't, maybe he never told me, but I was always involved with something in adventure and activity with my family.
Myy dad and mom for their honeymoon, for example, were married in Ohio and decided they would go out to Illinois and see his brother. They got to Northwestern where he was teaching and he convinced them that Yellowstone National Park was not that far down the road, so they put a case of Campbell's soup in their trunk and took off and found out it was a little bit further than they thought and so they got to Yellowstone and they said we'll never be this close to California, let's try that.
That was the parents that I had and the upbringing that I had, so adventure was always on the horizon.
[00:03:40] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like for you?
[00:03:42] John Ashmen: What was high school like? Boy, that's a question I don't get in many of the interviews that I do on a regular basis. High school was a great experience.
I didn't have problems. I came from a rural part of New Jersey. They're hard to find them anymore. In fact, in my grammar school days, we had outhouses for the first two years. I'm not all that old, but that's the status of the area where I grew up. But I went to a regional high school and probably was involved in the usual stuff. A few sports teams, and in the band. I look back on high school with fond memories.
[00:04:25] Tommy Thomas: When you went to college, how did you declare a major? What was involved in your decision?
[00:04:28] John Ashmen: I was in a music group at the time. This was in southern New Jersey, South Jersey for the locals, that's how it's known.
And I didn't want to go too far away to college because I didn't want to drop out of that group. And so, I went to the college where my parents had gone, where they met, which eventually became Cairn University. At the time, the school was called Philadelphia College of Bible, and it generally prepared people to go into a career in church music or go on to seminary, so I looked around at all those things that were preferred.
I wasn't interested in going on to seminary, and even though I was musical, it wasn't going to be a career. I looked at education, that's where most of the people were, and the one that interested me the most was social work. And I declared social work as the major, actually, everybody majored in Bible and you had a minor, and so it was social work, and so I left college with a Bachelor of Science in Bible with an emphasis on social work and didn't use it right away.
I did work part-time. Some of my fieldwork assignments were to be a chaplain at the Veterans Hospital and to be a parole officer, probation officer, in Philadelphia, but went into camp work, and that Christian camp that we mentioned was the one that when I spent the first 15 years, took over from my father and he was the person who started that camp, determined it was time to do something different.
[00:06:14] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about the first time you had people reporting to you?
[00:06:17] John Ashmen: It was at the camp. And I just remembered that the folks that were there were just fun to be with. And we made it as creative and unique as possible. We just had a lot of opportunities to really join together in a unique way in a camp setting.
We did not run a traditional office setting or environment. Everybody was out and about, and we would meet in some of the most unusual places, out in the Pine Barrens. And we just made it like an adventure every day that we would get together.
[00:07:01] Tommy Thomas: I think successful people are asked all the time, what makes you successful? I'd like to frame the question this way, and that would be, what is a factor that's helped you succeed that most people on the outside probably wouldn't recognize?
[00:07:17] John Ashmen: I'm told I'm creative and flexible. And so that is probably something that is a standout characteristic. In the strengths finder ideation is one of my strengths.
But strategic is also a strength. As we are going through a leadership transition here, my leadership style has been talked about particularly by the board as they were looking to find my replacement. I am an expressive driver, which means I come into a situation, assess it pretty quickly, and then pick a direction and get people to follow me. And that's worked for 30 years and 15 before that at the camp. That would be who I am.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:08:00] Tommy Thomas: What's the most creative thing you think you and your team have ever done?
[00:08:08] John Ashmen: 15 years in camping, 15 years with the Camping Association, and then 16 years with the Mission Association, and having had music in my background. 3 years ago now, 4 years, I guess, I talked to our friend, Amy Grant, from Nashville. Most people know who Amy Grant is and we said, what if we bring together the rescue mission dynamics, the life transformation attributes that are kind of part of helping people change their life? And then also blend in the unique outdoor setting and the dynamics of creative outdoor initiatives. And then also music. And so, we started something called Hidden Trace Retreat. And we've got a couple more scheduled here in another month.
Amy Grant worked with Citygate to establish Hidden Trace Retreat
And they've just been wildly successful where we bring people from a rescue mission going through a life transformation program, people who have previously been on the streets to continue with some of that teaching, but also use the outdoor setting and group initiatives and farm chores and those kinds of things to change their environment and give them total new experiences and see themselves in a different way.
We do What’s My Name? We talk about what your name means and whether you're living up to those attributes. What's my story? Where did you come from? What's my style? We go over social styles. What's my plan? What's my future? And when we get to that, what's my story, we bring in singers, songwriters, people like Amy Grant or others in Nashville. Cindy Morgan's been very involved with this, Mark Elliott and they listen to the stories of people who have been on the streets, go home, and craft these amazing songs so that when we all get together in the barn on the climax of the program, they hear songs about their life story sung by Nashville musicians. And that has been something that's gotten all kinds of accolades and awards for being a creative, unique program. That ranks up there. It's relatively current.
[00:10:39] Tommy Thomas: What times in your life have really tested your mettle and how did you come out of those?
[00:10:51] John Ashmen: Anytime there is a unique change in people's environment brings a lot of responses that you can expect more specific. When I came to Citygate Network, I was the first person in a hundred years, literally, to run this association of at the time, a couple of hundred rescue missions who never actually ran one. And I was never a mission superintendent as they called it. And so that put a pretty good target on my back. And when I came up with things that are presented to the board that were needed to be done to basically, save the association, that wasn't met with a lot of applause because they saw this as critical change.
And so that was probably one of the trying times. And I persevered and I told my board chair that you have to be my armor bearer. And I told my executive assistant, I don't want to read any of the comments that are coming in on email or social media about what people think of my decisions. I'll just measure it by what we accomplish.
[00:12:15] Tommy Thomas: Is there a point during that transition when you saw that y'all had turned the corner?
[00:12:22] John Ashmen: Yeah, there was. One of the things that really helped, Tommy, was that I wrote a book on the whole idea of hunger, homelessness, abuse, and addiction called Invisible Neighbors. And that book actually went through three printings and sold very well. And when all of those members, now organizations, number over 300. When those people saw that I understood what they were about and could voice it even the way that they couldn't, there was much broader acceptance, and then when they saw the positive changes and the connections to federal governments and the links we were making there and the unique public relations initiatives and involved with movies like Odd Life of Timothy Green, Same, Different as Me, I think they also, they said, hey, this is going the right direction. And we want to be part of it. And so that's why our membership has grown 50% since I've come.
[00:13:28] Tommy Thomas: What lesson do you think y'all brought out of the pandemic that you'll take forward?
Collaboration is paramount. I pushed collaboration from the very beginning of the pandemic. Faith-based organizations, particularly in the nonprofit world, had become very siloed. That was hurting us.
[00:13:34] John Ashmen: Collaboration is paramount. That's an easy one for me. I pushed collaboration from the very beginning. Faith-based organizations, particularly in the nonprofit world, had become very siloed. This is our group.
This is what we do. And even when I came to try to get people involved in government relations was, oh, we don't want to get involved with government. The camel gets its head under the tent and pretty soon the whole camel disappears and we'll get eaten up. My statement was, hey folks, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu.
If you're not at the table, you're on the menu.
And so let's see what we can do to build bridges. We have different philosophies about what's going on and we have different ideas of what the solution is, but let's at least talk to one another and see where we can work together. So we started not only building connections to the government but also we're encouraging members to reach out and see who around you is a partner in what they're doing.
And so a lot of our members became friends with those people running Dream Centers or Adult and Teen Challenge or Salvation Army, or whatever it happened to be in their city and started to have good relationships. Things like, hey, here's another mission nearby and they have a great women's program and we have a great men's program but their men's program isn't that good.
And maybe we can be the men's program. Let them have the women's program. We'll send our women over there. And so the collaboration that started at that point was something that was already in place when COVID came. And when we determined that we needed to have a bubble, the safe place.
And then we needed to have a place for rule-outs. And then we needed to have a place for quarantine. We had to have a place for isolation. We had different missions or ministry organizations sharing those responsibilities. Likewise, I was asked to be on the U.S. Interagency Council COVID 19 Task Force, U.S. Interagency Council on Homelessness, USICH. And I was on there with the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. People from Health and Human Services. The White House had a representative on the call. Department of Education, Department of Labor. A couple of other groups were on there.
Of course, FEMA was on and the Center for Disease Control prevention was on and the only three non-government agencies on that call were the Red Cross, us, and the Salvation Army. And we were collaborating at the highest level through the entire COVID pandemic.
[00:16:26] Tommy Thomas: Richard Paul Evans, the best-selling novelist, said that sometimes the greatest hope in our lives is just a second chance to do what we should have done right in the first place. When you think of a staff team and somebody that needs a second chance what's going through your heart and mind there?
[00:16:47] John Ashmen: If we're talking about what I'm seeing at missions they are there. They're paramount in this area. Many of the people who staff missions were former clients. In fact, many of the CEOs are products of their own program. I've taken so many trips to rescue missions and touring with the CEO and, here's our kitchen and here's our men's long term recovery dorm.
That was my bunk up there in the corner when I went through the program. And I just see that happening all over the place. I was within six different missions. Last week one of them called, Hope the Mission, used to be called Hope in the Valley in the Burbank area. They had something on their wall that said you can't go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.
I tell people on both Christian networks and secular networks that the Bible says life comes with a reset button, a second chance button. Any person being in Christ, they can be a new creation.
And that's what so many of our members are doing, seeing these people who are having second chances, as you put it, Tommy, go and finish well. I tell people on both Christian networks and secular networks that the Bible says life comes with a reset button, a second chance button.
Any person being in Christ, they can be a new creation. Old things pass away, and everything can become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17. So that is part of what we're about and why Citygate Network has done the work it's done so well.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:18:17] Tommy Thomas: Maybe aside from your dad, have you had mentors in your life who made a significant contribution?
[00:18:24] John Ashmen: One that I would immediately go to is someone who's passed away now. His name was Lloyd Mattson. And he was a mentor from afar. For most of my life he'd write books, and the books that he wrote, I would follow and just emulate the things that he was doing.
The creative side came out. I started quite a few camping programs because of the work that he had done and the positions that he had taken on things. Lloyd Mattson certainly was one of them.
I would say that the person I worked with at Christian Camp and Conference Association after I left directing the camp, his name was Bob Koblish. He was a mentor as well. I learned a lot about association work from him and, interestingly, he says he learned a lot from me, but I think we learned from each other and that's noteworthy as well.
[00:19:19] Tommy Thomas: Certainly, the Koblish family is good stock. I mean you got a good family there that have made a great contribution to both the Christian world and society in general.
[00:19:33] Tommy Thomas: I don't know of Rob Hoskins down at One Hope, but I saw a posting he said the other day, surround yourself with people who know you better than you know yourself and will tell you the truth out of love. That’s how we grow. How do you resonate with that?
[00:19:48] John Ashmen: Yeah, it's like the tombstone sometimes, credited to Andrew Carnegie, but I don't think it really is his. It says, here lies the body of the man who surrounded himself with better people than he was. I think that's always important that you have people that tell you the truth.
And, we have different places where that happens. It's not just in the work environment, but also in small groups and fellowship groups and things like that. We have the opportunity to either take their advice or not take their advice. You can surround yourself with great people and they can tell you the truth.
If you don't listen to it and take their advice, then you don't emerge any better than you were when you went in.
You can surround yourself with great people and they can tell you the truth. If you don't listen to it and take their advice, then you don't emerge any better than you were when you went in.
[00:20:28] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior that you've seen that derail leaders’ careers?
[00:20:34] John Ashmen: Some people don't like to be seen as making a mistake and if they do, they hide it.
I think pride is there as well. I think the other thing is that for so many leaders, their self-worth is tied up in what they are doing and not who they are, particularly who they are in Christ as Christian leaders. And so, when it comes time to let go of an organization and hand it over to somebody else that those tentacles wrap around and you find that they're not really willing to let go and it starts destroying the organization unless there can be some quick chopping of those tentacles to move.
This whole thing of succession is really critical. We did a survey of our 320-plus organizations back in the year 2020. And we asked hundreds of questions and we've got a lot of valuable information, but one of those was. I didn't know how long they expected to work and 39% of our CEOs said they would be leaving in the next four years.
So that was COVID right at it's prime point. I think a lot of people were tired and we thought maybe that wouldn't be the case, but it doesn't seem to be inaccurate. We're seeing people come and go, quite a bit. We probably have about 30 of our member organizations that are in transition right now.
And that just comes back to this idea, we're seeing who's able to let go and who isn't. The future of those organizations depends on how well succession is handled.
[00:22:22] Tommy Thomas: Stan, with succession, you've obviously seen a lot of it in both of your career tracks. How soon should a board and a CEO begin to think about that?
[00:22:36] John Ashmen: I believe a succession plan should exist as soon as you hire someone. You don't decide, here's what we need to do because the CEO needs to leave right away. We have documents that we tell our members to put a succession plan together. Here's sample documents, what it looks like.
You have a succession plan that is timed. Planned succession. You have one that's an unexpected succession. We even have documents that go to boards that say here's what not to do when you find yourself in the midst of an unexpected transition. And then once you have that plan, put it in a policy manual and put it on the shelf.
I tell CEOs when they ask me that question, I get a lot of them asking me when should I mention it to the board? I said, when you are sure you are ready to leave and it's going to be within two years. Because if you start talking about that, even hinting at it to your board, their whole mindset changes and they look at you as somebody who's in the process of going.
They aren't willing to take risks and you may be wanting to finish a project and they're not willing to put the extra effort or time or money into it because they sense that a change is coming. There are right ways to do succession and there are certainly wrong ways to do it. I like to think that I've rescued quite a few people from announcing things prematurely and helping them figure out how to end well.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
[00:24:18] Tommy Thomas: Next week, we will continue this conversation with John Ashmen. During that time, we'll discuss succession planning, John's recent transition from leadership at Citygate, and how he and the board handled that transition. We'll talk at length about board governance. Then I asked John the question that seems to be getting a lot of traction lately.
My shark tank question. If he were a panel member of a nonprofit version of Shark Tank, what would he have to be convinced of before providing startup capital to the nonprofit organization?
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Citygate Network Website
Invisible Neighbors – John Ashmen
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Lynn Erdman: I'm a huge believer in adding young people to the board. In fact, I did that right before I left my last CEO position. I had interviewed a young lady who happened to have a great position in the city where I was working and I can remember suggesting her to the board and saying, I think she would be a great addition and I can remember the faces like, are you kidding? She's in her twenties. And I can't see where she can contribute.
I talked to her recently and talked to one of the board members recently, and she is a star on the board and has brought all types of things to the organization.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began with Lynn Erdman in Episode 104. Lynn started her career as a floor nurse and worked her way up to senior leadership in the hospital. Over the course of her career, she also held senior leadership positions with the Carolina's Healthcare System, American Cancer Society, and Susan B Komen for the Cure. She has also served as the CEO of two healthcare nonprofits. Not only has she reported to nonprofit boards, but she has served and continues to serve on nonprofit boards. Let's pick up the conversation where we left off in Episode 104.
[00:01:20] Tommy Thomas: Let's move over to board service because you've served on a lot of boards and currently serve on a variety of boards, I just want to get some of your insights. Let me begin with a friend of mine, Dr. Rebecca Basinger, and her thoughts on governing boards. She says governing boards are charged with safeguarding an institution's ability to fulfill its mission with economic vitality.
To this, I would add responsibility for attending to the soul of the institution. When you think of the purpose of a governing board, what are you thinking about?
[00:01:56] Lynn Erdman: Definitely if you're a governing board, you need to make sure that the institution, what it's built on, what it's founded on, all of that is intact and being followed as it should be. And you're really simply overseeing the operation, but not the details of the actual functioning of whatever organization that you're looking at.
I serve on the board of trustees for a university right now, and we are really a governing body. We are overseeing, making sure that we get reports on the finances, we get reports on the changes in academics, but we really are not there to make all of those changes. We're simply there to oversee and make sure and ensure that people that are investing and paying to come to this particular university, that the governing part of it is in good shape.
[00:02:58] Tommy Thomas: The Board Chair is such a critical responsibility. Give me some words and phrases that in your mind describe a great Board Chair.
[00:03:09] Lynn Erdman: Someone who is willing to ask a question, someone who is very insightful, someone who trusts others around them, and someone who will look farther than many other people who are sitting around him or her.
In other words, they will delve very deeply into a particular issue and they pull good people around them. That to me is a really good leader. You can't have all of the skills. So, if you're forming a board they have to have skills that you do not have yourself so that you can ensure that all the skills that are needed are sitting around the table.
[00:03:56] Tommy Thomas: You served on several boards. How is that most effectively accomplished? How do you fill out the board with all the board needs?
[00:04:07] Lynn Erdman: I sit on a different board right now with another university and we actually use a committee as well as the board, the entire board, to look at where we have holes or gaps in what we are trying to accomplish, and we actually have made a grid and we look at it and then we seek out those areas where we really do not have the strength we need to have. For example, we're looking for a legislator, a state legislator because of several of the things that are going on that would be a great addition to this particular board.
So how do we go about it? And then collect ideas. As if you're brainstorming, from everybody at the table, people have got ideas, they've got connections, they've got the ability to tap other people and find out information as well. So I find using the people you've got around you helps as well.
[00:05:11] Tommy Thomas: What are the best practices you've observed on onboarding?
[00:05:17] Lynn Erdman: The best orientation I've seen is one I saw recently, where they not only got to meet the top people in this particular organization, but they got to actually see the mission at hand. So, if the mission was to take care of homeless people, for example, then they got to see that in action while they were going through their orientation.
And then they had not only information presented to them, but they had a great opportunity to ask questions about every section of the information that was presented. And that actually, because I've seen lots of meetings and I've been in lots of them where it was Board onboarding and you get a book, you get information, you're supposed to read it ahead of time, you come, you have a pretty brief session, you go through some of the finances, some of the things that people don't even understand because they haven't gotten on the board and you're done with your board.
And that, I find leads to the first time they show up at a board meeting, they don't have any way to contribute. And if there's a way to get them more ingrained in the whole organization and what it exists for, then the contributions that the person, the new board member, can provide. I find it much more robust.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:06:44] Tommy Thomas: Somebody is considering joining a nonprofit board. What kind of questions should they be asking themselves or should they have answered before they say yes?
[00:06:53] Lynn Erdman: They need to know if they believe in what that organization, that nonprofit is doing because if they don't, then there's no reason for them to join the board.
What I've seen over the years, and what always annoys me, is somebody joining a board to have their name on the letterhead or to add that piece of board responsibility, or board accolade to their resume. And that is just all the wrong reasons to be on a board. If you're really interested in bettering yourself and serving on something, then why do I wish to do that?
I can remember interviewing somebody not too long ago who wanted to join a board. One of the first things she told me was that she wanted to be involved in the community. And then I said, but why this board? And then she got into why. And it made plenty of sense because of her experience and the fact that she had lost a relative with what this organization was focused on.
If you've got a passion, then indeed you should be asking yourself, can I contribute? Do I have time? And will I put the time into it if I commit?
[00:08:13] Tommy Thomas: I'd like to get your thoughts on bringing younger people onto a board. We hear a lot about bringing people in their 30s and 40s into nonprofit board service. I've interviewed people who have been pro that, and then I've interviewed, surprisingly, two or three people who maybe think that maybe people more my age are supposed to have the wisdom to be on a board. What are your thoughts there?
[00:08:40] Lynn Erdman: I'm a huge believer in adding young people to the board. In fact, I did that right before I left my last CEO position. I interviewed a young lady who happened to have a great position in the city where I was working and I can remember suggesting her to the board and saying, I think she would be a great addition and I can remember the faces like, are you kidding?
She's in her twenties. And I can't see where she can contribute. I talked to her recently and talked to one of the board members recently, and she is a star on the board and has brought all types of things to the organization. So I always believe in, and part of the reason is, if you get people younger than the average age on your board, they're going to bring something new, innovative, and thought-provoking to your conversation. I promise they will because they're going to ask things that we live in our world, that we might not be thinking of because they see whatever from a 30-year-old viewpoint versus the average age of the board. It can make a huge difference.
[00:09:56] Tommy Thomas: I'd like you to respond to this quote.
You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force the board to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.
[00:10:06] Lynn Erdman: I totally agree. And the reason is, if everyone on the board agrees all the time, then number one, you're never going to get anything done, or you're going to keep doing the same thing you've always been doing.
You've got to have some type of catalyst or a person on the board that is going to challenge. And oftentimes, if you're sitting on the board, you think, oh, that's irritating. I know Susie's going to come up with that. Or I know Frank's going to say something because there's no way we're going to get through this discussion.
But if you're open, it always gets you to a different place. Even if you end up still back with some of what you talked about, it's opened everyone's eyes to make sure you've thought through the whole process. So yes, I think that's extremely important.
[00:11:03] Tommy Thomas: How does the board chair draw people into the conversation?
If you've got a quiet person on the board and you think you probably wouldn't, but I've been on boards and I've consulted where you do. How does a good board chair draw everybody into the conversation?
[00:11:18] Lynn Erdman: I'm a board chair right now for an organization where I have a person, I actually have two, that are very quiet.
And I was hearing from one of the staff members, I don't think this person's very interested in being on the board. I thought, let's don't jump too quickly. And so if we're having a discussion where several people are weighing in on a topic, then I will call on this person and say, I want to hear what your thoughts are.
I never put him on the spot because if somebody is quiet like that, oftentimes there's a reason. They like to think or process. So always let some other people talk, but always include the people that are very quiet and make sure that they're heard as well, and it's pretty insightful to get some of the information that comes from them.
[00:12:05] Tommy Thomas: Another quote. The chair and the CEO must learn to dance together. And neither can stray far from each other's gaze or proceed independently.
[00:12:19] Lynn Erdman: Very true, and you can't have one that's the leader and one that's the follower. They do have to be in sync, they have to dance the same steps, they have to know where the other one is getting ready to turn, and they need to know the hot buttons for each other and they need not push them. They need to say, okay, yeah, I realized that's going to be a tender spot for him. And so, I'm not going there. I might have a conversation with him afterward about what I'm thinking and see what he's thinking. But never show that you're not in unison when you are together.
It's extremely important because as soon as you do, the board sees anarchy almost within the setup. It's okay to disagree. I'm not saying you can't disagree, but you make sure you do it where it's comfortable and not necessarily always.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:13:14] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to the optimal size of a nonprofit board.
I read a quote, it says, from Ernest Haepel the fewer board members, the better. If it's 18, I'm just not interested.
[00:13:28] Lynn Erdman: I think you've got to have enough members to meet the goals and the needs of the organization. And if you can do that with four or five members and do it well, then I think that's great.
I find that a good size for most boards is anywhere from 15 to at max 25. But you know, erring on the 15-type side but for boards of trustees for universities I find that you end up with usually over 20. Simply because you need people from a lot of different areas, but you also need people who are going to fundraise for you.
It’s extremely important when you get your board too small in any type of organization, and you're always interested in finance and money, then you can't make it work. So, I think you've got to have diversity too. And the smaller the boards you have, the less diversity you have.
[00:14:31] Tommy Thomas: What about the reality of the executive session on a board?
How, you're chairing some, you're serving, what are you seeing there?
[00:14:43] Lynn Erdman: At one of the universities where I'm on the board of trustees, I find that we do executive sessions. The President of the university stays for the first part of the executive session, and then we always discuss his performance.
So he leaves the room, and then we continue with executive discussion for the last 15 minutes or whatever. And it's always about his performance at that point, and he's not present there. And then the board chair communicates back to him if there's something that needs to be shared at that point in time.
So it's always, I find executive session kind of two-part. And I think it's always good if you can have the leader of the organization present for at least a portion of it, but all the staff leave. So that's where I find an executive session, to me, that's what it means. All staff leave except for the head of the organization.
[00:15:41] Tommy Thomas: Let's talk about the CEO evaluation there. What best practices have you observed?
[00:15:48] Lynn Erdman: I have observed several. I've observed some worse practices too, but from a best practice standpoint, it's when every board member contributes, even if it's a written evaluation where you're checking boxes and making comments, that type of thing, and you compile those and then the board gets to see that back and meets and gets to talk about comments before it's ever given to the president of the organization. I find that works the best and that you've got time to think through and that you actually have an evaluation that is done that's got some great critiques of the work that they've done, but it's also got some constructive criticism where that they can improve that is tangible and that is doable. You can't just tell somebody you don't like something. What do you really want to see them accomplish? Spell that out so that it can be understandable.
[00:16:55] Tommy Thomas: Does the CEO, does the board chair, deliver that or who does deliver it?
[00:17:04] Lynn Erdman: I think it's too intimidating for the entire board. I've seen it done with a small group, two or three people doing it as well. But I think that you've got to have that relationship with the board chair and head of organization as well. So that works well to be able to have that type of conversation where the board, Chair, and the president can talk freely so the president can say wait, that really hurts me or I hear it, but help me think through this instead of being in a group of people saying that's the way you feel.
So there needs to be at least some trust and some support of the person in that senior role.
[00:17:49] Tommy Thomas: How are you using the committee structure on some of your boards right now?
I use task forces for projects that have a beginning and an end. When the project is complete, we sunset the task force. Committees are sustaining and usually serve for a long period of time.
[00:17:55] Lynn Erdman: Definitely, I've got task forces and committees. So I use a task force if it's a project that has got a beginning and an end to it. And then I can get something done. The task force may run for a year. It could run for longer, but I use them for that. And then committees are going to be something that is sustaining and that is going to run over a period of time. And I find that works really well. Then I can sunset task forces and say, and even, show, okay, this was the goal.
This is what we did. And this was the outcome. Then committees continue and report throughout the process. And oftentimes their goals can change too, but they're standing and they're going to continue. It's always good to think about which committees you need at the end of every fiscal year. Are the committees still valid? And if not, what needs to be added or what needs to be changed for those committees?
[00:19:02] Tommy Thomas: Give me some pros and cons on term limits.
I am a big believer in term limits on nonprofit Boards.
[00:19:06] Lynn Erdman: Oh, I'm a big believer in term limits. Because I've been on boards where people were on it indefinitely. In fact, in one of the recent CEO positions I had a board member on there who had been on there indefinitely.
And it was like, okay, how are we going to do this? And yes I think that three-year terms are good. I think two-year terms are very quick. You get on, you barely figure out what it is, you've got a second year and you're done. So I'm a proponent of three years and a recurring if you want to do six and then you got to step off at least for a year if not longer.
[00:19:49] Tommy Thomas: Philosophically, are you in favor of the boards being involved in the strategic planning or should that be the CEO's job to do that or have it done and bring it to the board?
[00:20:00] Lynn Erdman: I'm in favor of a two-prong approach. I believe the staff should do the strategic plan with the CEO and then bring it to the board and the board should have a discussion about it.
And the reason I say that is they're going to be the ones that have to carry it out. They're the ones who have their feet on the ground. They're seeing all the needs every day. I always want boards to weigh in and say, what do you think needs to be in the strategic plan? What things would you want to see?
But I think it's a joint effort between staff. I've seen it done where the board has been solely responsible for the strategic plan. Staff had no input and then watching it be carried out is not a pretty picture.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:20:43] Tommy Thomas: You and I are old enough to remember the Enron scandal, and then there have been many since then. Talk to me about fiscal responsibility and the board.
The Board must take fiscal responsibility seriously. You have to have people who have the courage to ask the hard questions.
[00:20:56] Lynn Erdman: Yes that is the board's responsibility. Fiscally, it’s important. I was with an organization, and this was several years ago, where the board did not take their fiscal responsibility into play. Just trusted the numbers that came out, did not look any deeper than that. And there was actually money being siphoned off by leadership.
And it really almost destroyed, in fact, did destroy for a number of years. The organization has to look deep. You have to ask the questions. You've got to have people on your board that are going to ask the questions. You have to share the finances and you have to be open and honest when there are troubles. It's okay to have a whistleblower. You need to make sure that all the staff know that the policy has to be in place so that somebody can share if they see something in the workplace that the board should know about.
[00:22:06] Tommy Thomas: Where should the board get involved in risk management? Is that a board function?
[00:22:15] Lynn Erdman: I think the board's responsibility is to, if the organization is going to make a decision to go into something, they need to be looking at all the risks that are there for the organization. And if they're not doing that, then, and leaving that just to the board and the staff, then you can see it where there's a disjunction between the board and the leadership, and that'll destroy an organization too. So anytime anything new is coming into play that's going to impact the organization, the board has got to be involved, at least knowledgeable enough to ask questions and to know.
[00:23:03] Tommy Thomas: Succession planning is something that I find overlooked a lot. When should the board and the CEO begin to talk about succession planning?
[00:23:13] Lynn Erdman: Depends certainly on the size of the organization, but the best time to do it is at least a year before the person's going to leave, if not before. I'm with an organization now that started looking two years before.
And, to me, they've done it right. Better than anybody I've seen with the CEO being extremely honest more than a year out saying, I'm planning to leave the organization, and here are the steps in place so that all the employees know what's coming and that the board has been working on this thing for a year before that it was even told to the employees.
So that's when you have a good, healthy organization. When it's just a surprise, and sometimes that happens if they decide to fire a CEO or whatever, then all of a sudden you haven't thought through a succession plan. Before a board does that they should know who they'd like to put in place before, even if they're going to make the decision to let somebody go, they should be thinking through because you can't decide that the board chair is going to run the organization and if you do, you're asking for trouble.
[00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: What are the pros and cons of grooming your next CEO from within?
[00:24:28] Lynn Erdman: I certainly think there are many organizations that have quite wonderful talent within the organization and people within an organization always like to see people move up. On the flip side of that, people within an organization don't always like to say they know the person who's coming in as CEO, and instead, they think, oh, if it comes from the outside, then we're all on even playing field.
If it comes from the inside who does this person like, who are they friends with, those types of things. So I think it's a mixed bag, but there's always talent within an organization. It never should be overlooked.
[00:25:09] Tommy Thomas: What's been your experience with the outgoing CEO staying around in an advisory or emeritus role?
I am not a fan of the CEO staying around in an advisory or emeritus role. That can be a recipe for disaster. The outgoing CEO needs to make a clean break from the organization.
[00:25:19] Lynn Erdman: It is my experience, personally, has been it's a disaster. There really needs to be a separation there. If they come back and they're offering some insight and that type of thing a year later, or something of that nature, but there has to be a clean break. The person that moves in as the CEO has got to be able to make their own decisions without looking over their shoulder and thinking what would that person do if they were sitting here, maybe I should ask them, and then they're never going to be at the caliber and the level that they potentially could serve most meaningfully.
Yeah, I believe that there needs to be a clean separation. Now, I have seen successful separations where the person that was in that top position came back as, and this happened to be at a university, came back as faculty for a particular course, again, later. And that's totally different.
They're not there in an advisory role, but I do think, certainly for a short period of time, if you're going to have some overlap, that's different, but when the person is fully taking their position it's time to separate.
[00:26:34] Tommy Thomas: I want to bring this to a close by circling back on your career.
You've come full circle. You started out in nursing. You've risen through the ranks, you've started organizations, you've been a CEO, and now you're back as a registered nurse. How does one do that?
[00:26:54] Lynn Erdman: Yeah, I look back on my career, I've been extremely blessed, and I've had opportunities that have unfolded before me that I really never thought I would have, and certainly would have never thought that as I was coming through college. It's always been because someone saw something in me that I did not see, or someone believed in me even more than I might have believed in myself. And for those opportunities, I've gotten to grow and learn in a whole variety of settings and all of the past number of years have been a non-profit.
But I happened to serve on a board of directors that meant a lot to me and I've served on a lot of boards, but this one really touched my heart. Because of the fact that they were dealing with people that were often homeless, but certainly addicted to drugs and alcohol. That's a type of nursing I have never done.
And so I remained in contact with the CEO of this particular organization over the years, just as friends, and I called the CEO about a year before I knew I was going to retire and said, I'd like to volunteer when I retire. And I wanted to work with the women because that's where I've spent most of my career, with women and women's health and cancer and those types of things.
And I can remember him looking at me across the coffee cups at the table saying, I have a PRN nurse position. I'd love for you to look at that. And I thought, oh, I just said retirement. Anyway, I looked at it and I thought, oh that would be good. I keep my nursing license and just dabble in this a couple of days a week and sure enough, he was wiser than I was because not only did I retire from a long career of full-time work, but I started doing a day or two a week at this organization and I'm now full time.
And I would tell you that it's probably one of the best jobs I've ever had. I absolutely love it. It's an incredible way to end my career and an incredible way to do retirement. I have nobody who reports to me, number one, which is a really nice thing. I have lots of people who care about me and I care for and are so grateful for the services that I provide. When you leave work and people are outside, good night nurse Lynn, we love you. Can't wait to see you tomorrow. You think oh my gosh this was not like it was when I was a CEO, you know, that type of thing. It’s a really nice and wonderful way to use the skills that I've had all of this time, but was away from the bedside, now circled all the way back.
A great wrap-up in the group. Yeah, you are really blessed and grateful.
I would tell a younger version of myself to take advantage of opportunities and don’t beat yourself up for making mistakes. Learn from your mistakes and keep moving.
[00:29:54] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back and tell your younger self something, what would that be?
[00:30:00] Lynn Erdman: I would tell my younger self to take advantage of every opportunity and don't beat yourself up for the things that you make mistakes in. Because I know I've been hard on myself.
I'd come home thinking, how stupid am I? How could I have done that? How did I make that decision? Just roll with it, learn from it, and keep moving.
++++++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore, my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] John Sommerville: I was talking to somebody recently who was saying that you should never surround yourself with people who are just yes people.
And I said to him, you don't want to surround yourself with people who are no people either. What we need is people who really love us and care for us and will do both. They will tell us and give us positive affirmation when we need it, and they will tell us the truth when we need to hear it, even if it's uncomfortable.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:00:27] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation we began last week with John Somerville. John is the Vice President for Finance and Operations and the Chief Financial Officer at The University of Northwestern St. Paul. John has served as the Board Chair at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and currently serves on the Board of Trustees of Christianity Today. Some things you probably won't learn about John from the internet include he's an avid reader, reading on average 50 plus books a year. He's an avid runner. He's completed six marathons, including the 2019 Boston Marathon, and more than 20 half marathons. And he's the author of Making Room for Christmas, a Collection of 10 Original Christmas stories. John has served in senior leadership with four different organizations and has done a lot of hiring. On the flip side, he has had to release people along the way. I'm always curious about any magic bullets that leaders might have around successful hiring and necessary firing. Let's pick up the conversation there.
[00:01:39] Tommy Thomas: Have you got a favorite or a go-to interview question?
[00:01:43] John Sommerville: I don't have a question. I have a category of questions.
I like to ask behavioral questions. In other words, what did you do? I like to hear what people have done. Now, I don't actually ask many questions like, tell me about yourself, what do you like or what are your qualities. Because I think people can develop answers to those that are not grounded in what they actually are. They're aspirational. They may say, I'm innovative or I'm a strong leader. I like to ask questions about things they've done and hear through that what I think they may do again in the future.
[00:02:20] Tommy Thomas: You know I found in my business, it's easier said than done to get a hiring committee to do that.
One of my favorite ways of going at that is I tell them to circle the action verbs on somebody's resume and then peel back the layers of the onion. What did that look like? But I never cease to be amazed that people don't want to do that. It's interesting that you develop that early in your career.
[00:02:47] John Sommerville: Tommy, one of the things that I've appreciated about you and your organization is these motivated abilities, the kinds of surveys that you do. I think that's really wise because measuring qualities, whether it's introversion and extroversion, whether it's, whatever the test you have, if it just measures things that qualities about a person, you're still not getting at what are they going to do if I give them a job?
[00:03:14] Tommy Thomas: So, you've given somebody a job, and for some reason, it didn't work out. What goes into your decision to terminate somebody and maybe what have you found to be the best way to do it?
Hire slow, Fire fast!
[00:03:26] John Sommerville: I think you hire slow, fire fast. I have to confess that I have found performance improvement plans virtually worthless.
In other words, we do them because sometimes maybe we believe we need to do them legally, or in some other way we need to be fair. Maybe we've delayed too long in giving feedback we should have given earlier. I think if I've made any mistake in leadership and managing people over time, it's sometimes I'm too patient.
I sometimes assume that this person's going to catch hold, but once we determine as leaders that someone is the wrong fit or doesn't have the abilities I think we need to call it quits. The other thing that I try to discern is their willingness and ability. What is it that is getting in the way?
And if it's ability or skills, I'm more willing to be patient and let the person try to give the person the coaching they need. I once worked with someone who was struggling with our boss. And he and I were runners, and we were on a run together and he was complaining to me about our mutual boss and why he didn't get along.
And halfway through the run, I said to him, you know what? I said the issue here isn't your ability to do what he wants you to do. It's your willingness. You don't want to do this. You don't like the direction he wants to take your role in the organization. And by the end of the run, he said, you're right.
And he began to make a transition out of the organization. Discerning those things is really important.
[00:05:00] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to hiring for a minute. In this litigious world that we live in, what credence or stock do you place in reference checking?
[00:05:10] John Sommerville: Some, but people choose who they give you.
I try to ask questions that I think can get beyond the surface. In other words, I try actually not to ask as many open-ended questions as you might imagine. And I try to ask questions that get at, have they had conflict with someone? How did they resolve it? Have you watched them fail?
And what did you learn from them in that instance? I try to ask questions that are as behavioral as possible and I may ask what are their greatest accomplishments, but also what things didn't they get done for you or what do you think they need to improve on?
And sometimes they can't answer because they don't really know. The other thing that I do is if I know anybody who's in any way connected to them. If it's not on the resume, it's not a ref on their reference. I may call them anyway. I may say hey I’m talking to so and I think you know them.
I noticed on LinkedIn you're connected to them. Can you tell me anything about them? I'll go beyond the list of references to find out what I can about people.
[00:06:18] Tommy Thomas: Where were you in your career when you felt like you were comfortable in your leadership skin, when you were comfortable that you were a leader?
[00:06:28] John Sommerville: I think that I would say that in some ways, I don't know that we should ever get too comfortable. I think I have learned over the years things that I do well and things that I don't do well, and that's become clear over time.
And so I would say that I got more comfortable maybe particularly early in the years that I was leading the church that we planted. And I would say during my time at General Mills, I was around a lot of great leaders, and I was young. And so, I probably felt more unsettled, or I was still learning and feeling and learning what I do well.
But I've always found that every year I have a new insight, a different way of understanding what it is I do best. Try to do those things as much as I can and things I don't do as well. Try to either work to remediate or try to find somebody else who can complement me in that area.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:22] Tommy Thomas: I'd like to get you to respond to a few quotes and then I want to go over into board work because board work is at the crux of the nonprofit sector.
So, here's a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King. The ultimate measure of a person is not where they stand in moments of convenience, but where they stand in moments of challenge, moments of great crisis and controversy.
I think that it is easy to lead when things are going well and much more difficult when things are not going well, and I think that we need to learn to be able to lead when we have less than full information, when things are murky.
[00:07:47] John Sommerville: I think that it is easy to lead when things are going well and much more difficult when things are not going well, and I think that we need to learn to be able to lead when we have less than full information, when things are murky and sometimes that means pausing and waiting, not making a decision impulsively, and sometimes it means, like I mentioned with the elevator and our president, our division president, you just need to do something.
So sometimes leaders have to give direction. You mentioned authenticity earlier. There are times when being too authentic can be unsettling for people. I felt like that at the beginning of COVID. And yet I knew I needed to lead with clarity and direction on what we were going to do as a church.
And I'm sure many leaders felt unsettled. The future was not certain. So sometimes it's beginning to move in a direction and then improvise as you go.
[00:08:44] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from C. S. Lewis. Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It's his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.
[00:09:02] John Sommerville: One of the things that I've become more grateful for, and this will sound like an oxymoron, but I've become grateful for times of hurt and pain in the sense that they lead us toward growth. And also times when I feel inadequate. One of the things I told my wife a couple of years ago was that I'd gone through a season where I felt I had to live in daily dependence just because of what was going on around me.
And I left that season and moved into a time where things felt a lot better. And I told her the one thing I did miss from that difficult time was that sense of dependence, daily dependence I had upon God. And I think that pain focuses us on things that we might need to change. Difficulty drives us to depend upon God.
And I think whenever we begin to feel like we're adequate we're putting ourselves in a dangerous place because we're beginning to reassert our own control on living outside of the dependence that we need to have upon God.
[00:10:09] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from Rob Hoskins. He's the CEO of One Hope. Surround yourself with people who know you better than you know yourself and will tell you the truth out of love. This is how we grow.
I was talking to somebody recently who was saying that you should never surround yourself with people who are just yes people. And I said to him, you don't want to surround yourself with people who are no people either. What we need is, and some of it has to do with people who really love us and care for us and will do both.
[00:10:24] John Sommerville: I was talking to somebody recently who was saying that you should never surround yourself with people who are just yes people.
And I said to him, you don't want to surround yourself with people who are no people either. What we need is, and some of it has to do with people who really love us and care for us and will do both. They will tell us and give us positive affirmation when we need it, and they will tell us the truth when we need to hear it, even if it's uncomfortable.
And we all need people who have permission, and we give permission to speak that way into our lives. We will not grow. We will not have the perspective we need to have if we don't have people like that in our lives. And sometimes our spouses play that role, sometimes another leader, sometimes a friend.
And I've had that and try to maintain that in my life all the time. Somebody just that I work with, a peer here, about three weeks ago said, by the way, John, and he then listed something he had observed, and he said, I think you need to do less of that. Absolutely right. And really helpful.
[00:11:28] Tommy Thomas: Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they'll surprise you with their ingenuity. General George Patton.
[00:11:38] John Sommerville: It's interesting that would come from Patton. My perception of him was he was a pretty directive leader. But I do think that what we need to tell people is what's the outcome we're looking for.
There are a lot of different ways to accomplish things. And most of the time if we prescribe it, we may find that we're either thwarting an innovation that we might not have thought of, or we're asking somebody to do something and be a clone. So be very clear about the deliverable, and the outcome that you're looking for, and then let the process unfold.
Now, the exception to that is somebody who's brand new. Sometimes what you need to do is do it with them. Watch them do it and then release them to do it. And that may take a little time.
[00:12:19] Tommy Thomas: Sticking with our military theme and preparing for battle, I've always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable. President Dwight David Eisenhower.
[00:12:31] John Sommerville: Once I had heard someone say that what we ought to develop is not plans, but fuzzy plans. And I think that the principle is what Eisenhower is getting at. And that is that what a plan provides is a general direction, but if you prescribe it as a step one, two, three, like a YouTube video telling you how to replace a lock or something what you'll find is that if you run into a challenge, something's broken or something's not right, then you're stuck.
What we need to do is provide general guidance but let that plan unfold and improvise as we go. The best leaders do that in a way where they can lead even in the midst of uncertainty.
[00:13:13] Tommy Thomas: When you’re sitting around the table with your leadership team, you never want to be the smartest person at the table.
[00:13:19] John Sommerville: You know the genius with a thousand helpers, or five helpers eventually will find the limits of their abilities.
They'll find the limits of their wisdom but if you create a culture where there is collaboration, even if the leader is the smartest person in the room they are never going to be smart enough to see everything. So there always needs to be an openness to ideas. If you continually squash the ideas of others, you'll not be as effective.
I think collaboration, developing diverse teams, and listening before acting is extremely important.
[00:13:58] Tommy Thomas: Peter Drucker, the most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.
[00:14:06] John Sommerville: I think that's true. I think that this is one of the problems in this soundbite era. When we develop talking points, as we listen to what leaders, organizations and others say they're trying to shape a message.
It's important to listen for what's not being said, and this is one of the problems we have, I think, with the lack of sustained reflection that this digital age has led us to, where you can summarize everything in a couple hundred characters, we miss a lot of nuances. It's important to ask questions that maybe go beyond what's being said.
[00:14:41] Tommy Thomas: Problems cannot be solved at the same level of thinking at which they were created. Albert Einstein.
[00:14:49] John Sommerville: I've not heard that one before. I don't know what Einstein meant, but I can think of two ways that is true.
One is that sometimes the problem is created at a level where there needs to be more detail and more understanding of what really is going on. A quote that I've used a lot and I found to be true is that there is simplicity on the near side of complexity that is overly simplistic.
And then there's simplicity on the far side of complexity that takes in account all the complexity and finds a way to work beyond it. It may be that what Einstein's talking about is the idea that sometimes you need to dive deep into the details. And other times you need to lift yourself above the details to be able to see the big picture.
And both need to be incorporated into good decision-making. But it's easy to get lost in the trees. And it's sometimes easy also at the same time to maybe lift yourself too high so you don't see. Some of the nuance and the details that are there.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:15:49] Tommy Thomas: Let's switch over to board governance and board service.
I know you've served on, I won't say countless, but certainly many boards. And I would imagine you've probably chaired two or three of them. When you think of a Board of Directors or Board of Trustees, what's their purpose?
The purpose of the Board is to nurture and shepherd the mission of the institution.
[00:16:02] John Sommerville: Their purpose is to nurture and shepherd the mission of the institution.
And the people who are running the organization need to be managing and leading and all of that. But the board needs to do what it can to make certain that the mission is continuing. There’s not mission drift that the organization continues to fulfill its purposes. When they see either a leader leading the organization away from its mission or being ineffective at accomplishing its mission they need to intervene.
But they need to be leading at a governance level, making certain that the systems and structures are in place. So, the organization is equipped to accomplish what it needs to accomplish.
[00:16:46] Tommy Thomas: When you think of the best board chair you've ever observed or served under, give me some words and phrases that describe that person.
[00:16:53] John Sommerville: The people I've seen lead well are very clear about the difference between management and governance. They're very clear about keeping the conversation at the level of mission, vision, and values. They are very good at keeping the organization accountable. Particularly the senior executive.
That's the linking pin between the board and the administration. And they are I think relentless about making certain that the board functions really well and doesn't start inserting itself. I've been on a couple of occasions around a board that was really a group of friends who liked hanging out together and they were they weren't paying attention, and then I've been in other boards, and this is probably more common, where they were trying to reach down into management and meddle, and that's ineffective and inappropriate.
[00:17:52] Tommy Thomas: Maybe this goes back to your earlier comment you may know Dr. Rebecca Basinger she says, Governing Boards are charged with safeguarding an institution's ability to fulfill its mission with economic vitality. To this I add, responsibility for tending to the soul of the institution.
[00:18:12] John Sommerville: I think that I would put it slightly differently.
I think that there needs to be a heart in all that we do. This is not original with me, but the idea of orthodoxy. Ortho in Greek is the word for straight, and so orthodoxy is straight doctrine or, right doctrine. And then you often hear people talk about orthopraxy, that there also needs to be these actions that are consistent with your doctrinal position.
But the third, which is a neologism, is orthopathy. Path, pathos is the word for passions or even the heart. All three need to be there in an organization. So there needs to be right, if you think about a Christian, we need right doctrine, we need right behavior. And we also need the right heart.
And I have been around boards or been around, say, a church board or so, where people had all the right doctrine, they were focused on the right kinds of behavior, but they didn't really have a passion for the church or the ministry that they're leading. All three need to be there and the best boards that I've been around really believe in the mission of the organization, they're clear about the kinds of behaviors they want to see, and they also love it.
They just love that organization or that church. And they want to see it achieve what it's meant to achieve.
[00:19:37] Tommy Thomas: The Chair and the CEO must learn to dance together, and neither can stray very far from each other's gaze or proceed independently.
The Chair and the CEO need to be able to find a balance between the accountability that the chair provides and the nurture and support and really encouragement and having that CEO or that board the organization's president's back.
[00:19:49] John Sommerville: I have seen CEOs and Board Chairs have a relationship that is just incredible. And I think that the Chair and the CEO need to be able to find a balance between the accountability that the chair provides and the nurture and support and really encouragement and having that CEO or that board the organization's president's back.
Leadership can be lonely, and a board chair can make a significant difference. Now, if the CEO gets out of line, the board chair is going to need to bring that kind of discipline and structure to it, but too many chairs either go to the extreme of not holding the organization leader accountable, but more often what they do is they forget that they need to be that cheerleader, encourager and support to help protect that leader.
And I've seen board chairs do that in really effective ways.
[00:20:48] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to board size. This guy, Ernest Happel, said the fewer board members, the better. If it's 18, I'm just not interested.
[00:20:56] John Sommerville: I think it depends on the organization, but I do think that there is a critical mass. You can get too small.
Four or five, or six is probably too small for most boards in part, because if it has any geographic scope, if it's a national board, you're going to have a few that don't show up each time. But once you get beyond eight or ten, what happens is you think you're increasing participation, but you're actually decreasing participation.
Because some people are either quiet or feel ill at ease speaking up when there are twelve or fifteen on a board. So your participation will go down. If you can, eight to 10 is I think the ideal size. Beyond that, I think it's a problem, but there are boards that do that are larger, if the philanthropic needs of the organization if you have people who are significantly investing financially in the organization and want to be active in a positive way. I think boards that are larger, particularly educational institutions tend to have larger boards for that reason. So I would say generally that's true, but not always.
+++++++++++++++
[00:22:04] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to succession planning. That's something in my experience that not enough organizations do enough of in a timely way.
I recently heard a nonprofit CEO say, “When they want you to stay is the best time to leave”.
[00:22:20] John Sommerville: I think that there needs to be constant conversation with the CEO about the future. And sometimes they couch it as if you're hit by a bus, who would you recommend? That's the rudimentary way to approach that.
That's really a transitional leader that you identify. But I think once a leader has been in an organization for four or five years there needs to be a beginning conversation about how's your energy. How are you feeling about this? The leader owes the organization enough time and it depends on the size and the mission of the institution, but sometimes that's a year or two years to say, I'm starting to sense from the Spirit that it's time for me to move on.
And I'm not sure exactly when that will be. And then you have a conversation that begins to lead toward a transition. An orderly transition is invaluable in an organization when someone abruptly quits and there isn't that time and it's the responsibility of both the chief executive and the board itself to initiate that conversation. It can be hard because sometimes a leader is offended believing that question is coming because the board wants them to move on so it needs to be very carefully broached or vice versa the board believes that this person has lost interest in the job, and there needs to be some dialogue, but that transparency and honesty is both owed to each other.
[00:23:50] Tommy Thomas: Once the decision's been made, from your observation, how much time should go between the announcement and the new person being hired or promoted?
[00:24:00] John Sommerville: I think it's different in different organizations. Churches sometimes need a gap, an intentional gap between the previous leader, especially if that person's been there for a long time, whether it's a founding pastor or a long-time successful pastor, there may need to be a gap and an intentional interim can be helpful.
That's not always the way it is in para-church organizations and nonprofit organizations. There will need to be a time when you actually start the search. If the leader can stay through a transition, that can be really helpful. But generally, I think it takes about a year to do that process from the time that it's being announced.
How long it takes to develop a new position profile and understand what the organization needs of its next leader may be a little different than the current leader. To be able to generate that, to be able to sort through possible candidates and make that it's generally, I would think, a year that's been my observation.
[00:24:57] Tommy Thomas: Let's talk about the pros and cons of grooming and promoting from within versus hiring from the outside. See if you can debate both sides of that coin.
[00:25:09] John Sommerville: I think the fork in the road has to do with what does the organization need? I do believe that many of the best transitions are internal candidates.
They know the organization. If they are ready to take the step of moving up into that senior leader role, they already have trust. They already have experience. They understand things. And that can be, I would often lean in that direction. I think that's often the best way to go. But you can't compromise on what you need out of that next leader.
And if that person doesn't exist in the organization, then an external candidate can be important. I think the other thing is if things are going well we definitely would lean toward an internal candidate, but if things have somehow gone off the rails for one reason or another, there's a significant challenge, then sometimes an external leader can be necessary.
I will say that my observation is that insiders have a tendency to be slightly more successful than outsiders. There's just something about knowing the organization, both for the leader and for the organization. There's something about that knowledge of who you are and who the organization is that can be more.
[00:26:28] Tommy Thomas: What about this idea that the CEO stays around as an emeritus or in some role?
[00:26:34] John Sommerville: I'm not a fan of that. I think that that can feel like a cloud over a leader. I have seen cases emeritus. And what they do. I've heard of organizations where the Parachurch organization once I heard about where the previous president came to board meetings and expressed his opinion and the new leader took several years to be able to really assert his leadership.
That was not healthy. Generally, I think in a church it's good for a pastor who's leaving to separate and allow the new leader to begin to take the organization in a direction that might be a new direction. And parachurch organizations, I think the same thing. I'm not a fan of that.
[00:27:23] Tommy Thomas: Before COVID, I spoke several times to non-profits about succession planning, and one of the areas we talked about was the departing leader. One of my observations is that there's probably a lot more of the departing leader's identity tied up CEO than he or she might realize. Your observations.
[00:27:42] John Sommerville: I think that is often true. I think that's a discipleship issue where I think all leaders need to be aware of how much their identity can get wrapped up in what they do, what they achieve, and what they accomplish. And our identity needs to be in Christ. I heard a leader one time say after leaving the organization that he was responsible for, he said, I no longer feel relevant.
And I was disappointed to hear that. Now, I'm not judging him. I'm sure that's a process that I'll go through as I move into the next chapter of my life. But I think we need to teach people that they are more than what they do. And I think it's unfortunate if that happens, but I can see as a human we do get identified with what we do. But it's not healthy most likely.
[00:28:37] Tommy Thomas: So, if you get a call this week from somebody in the Twin Cities and they've been encouraged to join a board of a XYZ nonprofit they're coming to you for counsel. What questions are you asking them or what questions do you want to make sure they get answered?
[00:28:55] John Sommerville: I would ask them first, is this an organization that you're passionate about? Do you support them financially already? Is this an organization where you respect the leadership? Do you feel like you have something to offer? Is this an organization that you're willing to give a few years to, because sometimes people say, I might do it for a year, just a year, just to figure out the basics of the organization.
I once was asked to join a board and the person who was assigned to be my mentor, I asked him, I said what's required on this board? He said it's really an easy board. He said I get on an airplane, and I read the board book on the way to the meeting. And then you go sit in committee meetings.
It's really easy. It's the board I have to invest the least in. And I thought I'm not interested in this. And I found out when I got there that he was an ineffective board member and the best board members were really investing time. Don't go on a board unless you're willing to do some work, unless you're willing to spend the time to give it what it needs.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:30:04] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website. www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics that you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.
Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] John Sommerville: I was in the elevator at General Mills one day with the president of our division. There were about eight of us in the elevator and the elevator stopped between two floors. And I was the one closest to the buttons. And I had no idea what to do.
The elevator stuck. The president of the division reached around me, opened up the little box with the telephone in it, and called on the telephone to get the building supervisor to come and get us out. And what I learned from that is when you have a problem, do something, just get started. And I was standing there frozen what in the world do we do? And he took action.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:38] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is John Somerville. I first met John when JobfitMatters conducted the search that brought Alec Hill to the presidency of InterVarsity. John was a board member of InterVarsity at the time. He's had an amazing career. After getting his MBA from Indiana University, John took a marketing position for General Mills and worked there for 11 years. If you've ever noticed the heart on a box of Cheerios, you've seen some of John's marketing skills at work. He conceived and implemented the major heart-healthy campaign for Cheerios, which landed them the American Heart Association Certification. Following his time at General Mills, he was in senior leadership at Wooddale Church. Then he planted the City Church in Minneapolis. In 2021, he assumed the role of Vice President of Finance and Operations at The University of Northwestern - St. Paul. Let's pick up on my conversation with John Somerville.
[00:01:44] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional career, I'd like to go back to your childhood, and what are some, maybe two or three, remembrances that you have that have been fairly formative in your life?
[00:02:01] John Sommerville: Even as an elementary school kid, I was always organizing things.
And I remember that I was fascinated with the Olympics in 1968, at 10 years old. I was completely blown away by the whole experience of watching it on television. So, I decided that our block needed an Olympics. And so I made up events. We had a 40-yard dash. It was the first three houses on the block.
Our house was the second house. So, I organized that. We had a high jump pit that we put leaves in. And we did this Olympics, and there were probably about a dozen kids from a couple of blocks that came over, and we made medals and all that sort of thing. And so I had this desire to organize things, to get things moving.
And then one of the things I later looked back on when I became a pastor and started a church was an experience I had in high school. The church I went to was a really good church but they didn't have a youth group that was vital and really engaging. And as a sophomore in high school, I wrote a proposal to the church board.
I went to their board meeting, and I presented this proposal, and I told them that we should hire someone, should buy a pop machine. I put it in the fellowship hall of the church. We should get a pool table. That's by the way, where the whole thing went off the rails. But I wrote this proposal on how to make the group a better group and the board didn't go for it.
I have always had a tendency to look at a problem or an opportunity and try to make something happen. That was part of who I was, even as a kid.
I ended up becoming involved in Youth for Christ had a thing called Campus Life, and that was for my junior and senior year in high school, I got involved in. I had a tendency to look at a problem or an opportunity and try to make something happen. That was part of who I was, even as a kid.
So, I look back as I think about what was I like. I was reflective, I read, but I also wanted things to happen.
[00:03:54] Tommy Thomas: What was the greatest gift that you think your parents gave you?
[00:03:55] John Sommerville: Curiosity. My parents are still living there in their mid-90s. My father was the earliest intellectual influence in my life.
He's a reader and a thinker and read lots of books to us, and encouraged us to do the same. My mother was a nurse and very interested in nature. She used to have a bird book that sat in the kitchen. She'd look at birds out of the backyard and identify them. And so, I think that kind of curiosity openness to the world, and learning was one of the greatest gifts that my parents gave me.
And their faith. Maybe that goes without saying, but watching them have quiet times, time with God, the way that their faith was really integrated into all of their lives. Those were big influences on me as a young one growing up.
[00:04:41] Tommy Thomas: So, did you have a job in high school?
In high school, I worked at a grocery store and on a farm. As I look back, I think that’s when I realized that I needed a work ethic.
[00:04:43] John Sommerville: I worked for a year at a grocery store which was interesting.
As I look back, I think that's when I realized that you needed a work ethic. I worked with a lot of folks who were around my age who were mostly lazy. I worked on a farm for a summer. Years later, the farmer that I worked for went to the church that I grew up in.
And I'd gone to college, and I think I was probably a sophomore or junior in college, and he called me over and he introduced me to all of his friends. And he said I'm the reason this kid went to college. In other words, working on the farm gave me a hunger for learning and maybe doing something different.
I don't know if that's a direct, but it's somewhat true. So those were a couple of experiences that I had working during high school.
[00:05:28] Tommy Thomas: When you went to college, how did you decide on your major?
[00:05:33] John Sommerville: My father was a practical person. And he said, I want you to get something that you can get a job with.
But I was also interested in history and philosophy and other sorts of things like that. So, I found a major, it was Personnel Administration, what you now call HR or People Management. And it allowed me to take classes in the business school, so I could take accounting and finance and other things like that.
And also take liberal arts classes. I took classical Greek, for example, as a language. At the time, I was wrestling with the direction that my life might take, and I had two ideas. One was to work in business. The other was to work in the church, and I had to try to discern that, and it wasn't just what I took in the classroom, but some of the experiences I had outside that helped guide me in that direction, to figure that out, and ironically, I ended up doing both as part of my career.
[00:06:27] Tommy Thomas: You graduated from college, you went on to get your MBA at Indiana. What do you remember about the first time you managed people?
[00:06:34] John Sommerville: I think I'd been at General Mills about two years when I was promoted to a manager position. And what I remember is being an individual contributor. You're only responsible for yourself, just getting your own work done.
But all of a sudden, you've got to direct the energies and work of others. And I remember pretty quickly understanding that there were some things I needed to do and one was to give everybody clear direction. I always appreciated people who supervised me, giving me a clear idea of what they were expecting.
As a manager, I realized that if I gave vague directions, I got vague output. I realized that I needed to give clear direction.
And I realized pretty quickly that if I gave vague directions, I got vague output. And so, I learned that I needed to be able to give clear direction. And then I think the idea of both affirmation and correction is woven together. So, see people when they're doing something that they're doing right.
My parents used to say that they tried to catch us as children doing the right thing and then reinforce that. I think that principle applies as well as quickly correcting. And so those are some principles that I think early on that I learned and it's hard to be consistent in those. Sometimes you just assume people are going to do the right thing and know what to do. But those are things that I kept coming back to in those early years.
[00:07:44] Tommy Thomas: What was the highlight at General Mills when you think back on that chapter of your life?
[00:07:48] John Sommerville: I had a really great experience in the organization. I'll give you a couple. The very first thing I was assigned to, I was brand new, I was put on a a project team to develop a boxed salad. We ended up calling it Suddenly Salad.
It was a boxed pasta salad mix. At the time what they were looking at was trends in food where pasta salads were starting to appear in restaurants and other places, and they wanted to take advantage of that, and I worked in the division that made Hamburger Helper and some of the Betty Crocker potatoes, and so they had the technologies available, so in six months this project team developed that product and I was brand new on it, so I had a lower level role.
But it was so much fun to work and see this project on a fast track become a reality. I spent quite a bit of time in new products and in new markets when I worked in Europe. That new product development thing was really significant. The other was the opportunity I had when I was the Marketing Manager of Cheerios.
My wife and I lived in Switzerland for three years where I worked for a joint venture for General Mills and Nestle. When I came back, I was assigned to be the Marketing Manager of Cheerios, and the brand was declining in volume. And what we found serendipitously is that oats have the effect of reducing cholesterol.
And we did a clinical study that led to the ability to make a claim around the heart healthiness and the cholesterol-reducing properties of oats. And introduced that, the heart-shaped bowl on the box came out at that time. Very satisfying experience. I left right as that was being implemented, but it had led to a real resurgence of that brand. So had great satisfaction about being involved with others in that process.
[00:09:37] Tommy Thomas: What do you think of all the things you learned in the private sector, what did you take to the nonprofit sector that you think has helped you the most?
There is an underappreciation in some ministry organizations and churches and others for the disciplines of financial management, and operational leadership of getting systems and structures to work for you.
[00:09:49] John Sommerville: I think there is an underappreciation in some ministry organizations and churches and others for the disciplines of financial management, operational leadership, of getting systems and structures to work for you. For example, in starting a church, one of the things that I was committed to, even when we were relatively small, was the idea of building systems and structures that made our work more efficient, more effective, and allowed us to do more of what we really needed to do. Working with people doing services and that sort of thing.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:10:23] Tommy Thomas: Let’s stay in your private sector world for another minute or two, were there mentors there that kind of took you under the belt and what did that look like?
[00:10:31] John Sommerville: I've had a number of mentors in my life and one of the most important was a guy named Leith Anderson who was the Senior Pastor at Wooddale at the time, who later became the President of the National Association of Evangelicals.
And Leith, early on when I was brand new in the church, showed an interest in me and gave me some opportunities for leadership, being on boards and task forces, and things like that. And at one point, he asked me if we could get together. We went to a local restaurant one evening after a meeting for pie, and he asked me, what are you going to do with the rest of your life?
And at the time, my vision was I'd work until I was 55. Then I'll quit and go work for a ministry organization. And his question for me was, why not now? Now, it would be five years before I left General Mills. But his point was, you don't have to wait all that time maybe it would be a sooner deal.
And it did turn out to be that. But I think with mentors, I think we need multiple mentors in our lives. I've heard one say that if you have just one mentor, you become a clone. If you have two, you're confused. If you have 10, you become wise, and your mentors don't all have to be living.
I think one of my mentors is George Marshall, the general who became the architect of the Marshall Plan and the great diplomat. I've read a number of books about him and those are examples of people that I admire, and their lives, in one sense or another, have shaped me.
[00:11:58] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you've ever taken, and how did it come out?
[00:12:03] John Sommerville: I think starting a church. There's something about entrepreneurs, church planters, and others.
They are naive and they often don't understand what they're taking on. And I think that is good. Because sometimes it's more daunting maybe than you realize. And I think deciding that we could start a church in an established neighborhood that was not particularly hospitable to an Orthodox expression of Christian faith was probably the most daunting thing.
And looking back on it, I wonder how in the world we got the courage to do it. But that was probably the most, and I believe today, even today, and probably will be for the rest of my life, the most significant, important thing that I have given my life to. And I believe brought great satisfaction. But it was not easy.
[00:13:00] Tommy Thomas: I’d like for you to respond to this quote “A group is a bunch of people in an elevator. A team is a bunch of people in the elevator, but the elevator is broken”.
[00:13:11] John Sommerville: I'll tell you a story and it's an elevator story. I was in the elevator at General Mills one day with the president of our division. There were about eight of us in the elevator and the elevator stopped between two floors. And I was the one closest to the buttons. And I had no idea what to do.
The elevator stuck. And the president of the division reached around me and opened up the little box with the telephone in it and called on the telephone to get the building supervisor to come and get us out. And what I learned from that is when you have a problem, do something, just get started.
And I was standing there frozen. What in the world do we do? And he took action. And I think what he did is he led us, now obviously he was the one doing something. But it could have been somebody else, but he just did something. And I think teams need to just start moving. I don't know if that's exactly what you're looking for, but that was certainly very memorable.
[00:14:10] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you some generational difference questions and there's no right or wrong answer. I talked to somebody the other day and he said, I don't think there's very much difference in the generations and he had a good rationale.
And then I've talked to others. I talked to Tom Lynn at InterVarsity and Tom had some thoughts on leading different generations. You've obviously, in your four environments, led different generations and now you're working with different generations at the University of Northwestern St. Paul. Maybe when you think about at least broad categories of Boomers, Gen Xers, Millennials, and Gen Z, any observations on the differences of them working as a team together?
[00:14:51] John Sommerville: I would fall in between your two guests. I think that we sometimes confuse generational differences for life stages. In other words, 20s have a certain set of concerns, and we sometimes forget the cycle we went through as we grow up.
There are some things that I sometimes hear when people are reading an article about generational differences, and I think you're just thinking about life stages.
There are some things that I sometimes hear when people are reading an article about generational differences, and I think you're just thinking about life stages, but I also think there are things that are different from one generation to another. My parents were raised in the Great Depression, and the way that they function and still function in their mid-90s now is around the idea of scarcity. They're very concerned, very frugal, and they have really a scarcity mindset.
Boomers tend to have more of an abundance mindset because that's what they grew up with. And then as you move forward, different generations with things playing out different ways. And I'm watching this now with college students and those that are in their early 20s, just the influence of the cell phone and technology.
There are distinct differences and I think we need to adapt what we do to be able to communicate well with each new generation. And sometimes that's being sensitive and learning ways that can contextualize what it is we're trying to communicate or work through with them. I think those are really important.
[00:16:09] Tommy Thomas: What about creativity and innovation between the generations?
[00:16:12] John Sommerville: I've thought so much about that. I will say that I think that creativity and innovation is a mindset that has to, in an organization, has to be nurtured and fostered. Some people tend to be more creative than others. They think in more novel ways and other people just need to be given the freedom to actually do that.
And that's one of the things that leaders are not always effective at because they tend to believe they know the right answers and they tend to not let people think long enough and hard enough about a new idea to be able to see where it might go. And I think the older leaders, the more impatient they get, and at the same time, the more nurturing they need to get of ideas that maybe they might initially disagree with but might have fruit.
[00:17:00] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to resilience. Most of us hope we learn something about resilience during the pandemic. I want to give you a couple of definitions. It's too strong of a word but maybe not. So the University of Massachusetts Global says resilience is not a one-time action.
It's a sustained effort to adapt, survive, and thrive in times of stress and uncertainty. Forbes - Resilience provides the ability to recover quickly from change, hardship, or misfortune. It's the product of a broad perspective. Your thoughts?
[00:17:36] John Sommerville: There's a Greek word, hupomene sometimes it's translated steadfast endurance or endurance in the New Testament, I mentioned earlier, that I took Classical Greek as an undergrad. That word really stuck with me, and the reason why is that it's translated sometimes in a very flat way in English, and yet the Greek word has this idea of persistence, of resilience, of tenacity, of sustained effort toward something that is, it's an undaunted kind of approach to life.
And I think that this is undervalued by many because I think the assumption is that if it's something that I'm gifted to do or it's something that needs to be done, it will be easy. And I found that most things worth doing are like pushing water or pushing a rock uphill.
It's just most things that are worth doing are hard. Woody Allen once said that 85% of success is just showing up. And I think that part of what we have to do as leaders and as people of character is just keep showing up. And so t resilience is a very important character quality.
++++++++++++++++
Most of us are afraid to fail because we don’t like to be embarrassed.
[00:18:50] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we learn most from our failures. And if that's the truth, or if that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:18:57] John Sommerville: I think because we don't like to be embarrassed. We don't like to invest in something that we feel, the equivalent of the oil industry person drilling a dry hole.
We don't like effort that seems to not go anywhere. And so, I think sometimes we need to remember that risking things is the only way we're actually going to achieve things. And sometimes you have to fail several times before things actually go right, and I think sometimes we're just way too afraid of finding ourselves in a place where we might feel embarrassed, or we wasted time.
I think the other thing is that we sometimes think that the consequences of failure are permanent, and they aren't. We're often in a place in life where we at least know one thing that doesn't work. So, then we can try something else and figure out what does work.
[00:19:53] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to authenticity. There's a great power in authenticity. Arthur Wilde said, be yourself, everyone else is already taken. Saint Catherine of Siena said, be who God meant you to be and you will set the world on fire. What lessons have you learned about authenticity over these four chapters of your life?
We need to be transparent with people enough that they can see what actually is going on rather than trying to put on some persona.
[00:20:12] John Sommerville: I would say a couple of things. First of all, we need to be transparent with people enough that they can see what actually is going on rather than trying to put on some persona.
And so, authenticity means in part that we're in a place where we're letting people see who we are and not trying to fake something, the transparency is very important. Now, the one thing I'll say about authenticity is authenticity can also be an excuse. In other words, authenticity can be an excuse for immaturity.
We need to understand that being authentic can mean also that we might be in sin. One of the things that we need to do as Christians is to be made into the likeness of Christ, which means there may be character qualities or things that might be authentically us. But also, maybe sin, so part of it is to let people see enough inside of us, but at the same time recognize that authenticity whether it's anger or greed or impatience may be things that God needs to work on and process of sanctification needs to be the exercised in those areas.
[00:21:24] Tommy Thomas: You've observed a lot of leaders. Over the years, what do you think is the most dangerous behavior that tends to derail a leader's career?
[00:21:33] John Sommerville: I believe character. I think we're in a generation where we are so impressed with competence, so impressed with people who have outsized skills in one way or another that we have forgotten that those skills, if not tempered by character, if not shaped by character, not channeled through character, can end up being toxic or worse.And I really think that character is really the foundation. It's not all of it, because we need competence, but competence alone is not enough.
[00:22:07] Tommy Thomas: Maybe a little lighter question. We've been diving deep into some serious thoughts here. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of the shark tank and people were coming to you for early-stage investments in their nonprofits, what questions do you need answers to before you open your purse?
[00:22:25] John Sommerville: I think the first question is, what need do you believe exists that your ministry or organization will serve? And how is what you're doing, how will that serve that need? Because if there's a true need I think many things follow from that. And if you have something unique that will really help meet that need, then the organization needs to exist.
So, I think those are big questions. And by the way, the other thing that I often ask is, who else is doing this? What I find is that there are people who are pioneers who do something for the very first time, and we write books about those people, but often what we need is that the people who are innovators are just being novel without actually being effective and so it's important to understand the need, be able to meet the need, and then also give examples of how that works.
You may have a unique spin on it, but the core of it needs to be channeled into an area that others have been successful in the past.
[00:23:31] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard to get at the non-profit’s organizational health, what is your dashboard going to measure?
[00:23:38] John Sommerville: I think that the effectiveness of whatever you're doing, whatever effort you're doing, is it effective?
If you're taking care of orphans, or if you're feeding the hungry, or if you're ministering to ex-offenders who are trying to reintegrate into society, is what you're doing effective? Can you show that? Can you measure that? The other is economic viability. Many people are very motivated. They’re compassionate people, but there does need to be some economic foundations and economic viability for what you're doing.
And that can be achieved in a lot of different ways, but that needs to be there because otherwise an under-resourced organization will not be effective long term.
[00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: Give me some of those illustrations of economic viability.
[00:24:24] John Sommerville: One thing that organizations operate in a lot of different ways, sometimes there's a revenue stream that helps to fund the ministry.
And that could be, I'm familiar with an organization here that works with high school students through the schools and they have figured out how to work with school districts to provide programming and content that is useful and effective. It's a Christian organization, but it works with public schools and does a very effective job.
They figured out a way to balance philanthropic revenue and revenue from many of their programs. And they've done it very effectively for 30 years. Other organizations are purely philanthropic. And they need to develop a core base of people that are interested in the ministry and constantly replenish that.
But showing effectiveness, and developing a sense of passion, not only for the people who work for the organization but those who are connected as donors. And then there are ministries that really do function as businesses, per se, a publishing organization or something like that may generate almost all its revenue from some kind of sales or revenue, but still, it needs to be mission-driven. There are a lot of different ways to think about that.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website. www.JobfitMatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Whitney Martin: We were talking about this with my son the other day, he had heard a Malcolm Gladwell podcast that said you have to have 10,000 hours to really do well on something.
John and I started to talk to him about that, that looks like maybe four years, being in a role, a professional role, eight hours a day, five days a week. And I think that probably rings true in a fundraising position. It takes about three to four years to really get up and rolling, getting to know the landscape, the mission, and the important people that will support the work that you're doing.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:44] Tommy Thomas: Any time I question the value of all the time I spend conducting candidate research on LinkedIn, all I have to do is remember how I met our guest today. I was conducting a search for a major donor rep, and the position was located in the Carolinas or Virginia. So, I was looking for a seasoned professional who lived in that area.
And one of the names that came from the research was Whitney Martin. On paper, she seemed like a solid candidate, so I contacted her. As it turned out, the overnight travel component of the job was a bit much for her and her family's season of life, so she passed on the opportunity. But as I do with every strong candidate I meet, I added her to the JobfitMatters database, and we've remained in touch.
Whitney took her undergraduate degree in French and International Studies from UNC Chapel Hill and her Master's in Modern Foreign Language Instruction from Boston University. As you might imagine, she's fluent in French and has more than a passing proficiency in Spanish. She recently joined the Advancement Team at Duke Divinity School.
Prior to this, she was Senior Director of Development for Duke Health Development and Alumni Affairs. Whitney, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:56] Whitney Martin: Thank you, Tommy. It is such a privilege to know you, and thank you for such a kind introduction.
[00:02:03] Tommy Thomas: I think I'm remembering right from our conversations a year or two ago, but there was a time in your life when you thought you might be wearing Auburn burnt orange and navy blue instead of Carolina blue. Is there a short story there?
[00:02:16] Whitney Martin: That's exactly right. I even think I said War Eagle to you. And I know Toomer’s well, even had a shirt from there, but you're right. As a child, growing up in Charlotte, I was thinking about spreading my wings and heading out of North Carolina and Auburn was one of those schools that I saw a couple of the graduates from my high school attend and thought, let me go check that out, until my parents made me drive the entire way from Charlotte to Auburn.
Did I realize that's a little too far? I think they had that in the back of their minds that, let's show her how far it really is. But I still have a fondness for Auburn and love watching their football games.
[00:03:04] Tommy Thomas: Take me back into your childhood. You grew up in Charlotte. What was it like?
[00:03:09] Whitney Martin: It was a great place to live. We had a wonderful community, our church community, wonderful schools to attend. At that time, there was a lot of desire to make sure that there was diversity in our schools, and so during that time in my life, I was actually taking a bus an hour from my home to uptown Charlotte to attend elementary school so that I could be with people from all walks of life.
And that value was instilled at an early age by my parents and my community. And in that respect, I think it was a great place to grow and learn and really try to figure out how to be in the world, but also how to care for others in our community. So it was great.
[00:03:57] Tommy Thomas: What do you think may be the greatest gift your parents gave you?
[00:04:01] Whitney Martin: Gosh, the greatest gift. I think trying to create an opportunity for me to develop a worldview and understand what generosity looks like, of time being relational and also providing resources to those who need it.
They were always very generous. And I think that was one of the best gifts that they gave me.
[00:04:27] Tommy Thomas: How did you get into foreign languages?
[00:04:31] Whitney Martin: Gosh, I had a really challenging French teacher in high school at East Mecklenburg High School in Charlotte. She was so challenging that I actually fell in love with the language and decided during my time at UNC Chapel Hill that I wanted to expand that worldview, get out of my comfort zone.
That's always been a theme in my life, and so I had an opportunity to study abroad and was able to really get excited about the language in a new way. And after that experience in my sophomore year, I decided to make sure that was one of my majors in college.
[00:05:10] Tommy Thomas: And where does the international studies piece come in?
[00:05:13] Whitney Martin: My husband laughs at this, but there was a test called the Grammar Slammer that was required to get into the communications school at UNC, and I could not pass the Grammar Slammer, ironically, if it were in French, perhaps I could have, but that pivot was at the same time I did the study abroad opportunity.
And so once I started to see there are other options for a degree at UNC, I realized, okay, what is something that is interdisciplinary in nature that pulls history, poli sci, languages, and gives me some flexibility to explore? And that was actually the most flexible major at UNC at that time and so I was one of the first students to actually get that degree at UNC.
[00:06:06] Tommy Thomas: So what's something that people are always surprised to learn about you?
[00:06:11] Whitney Martin: That's a good question. Whenever we do an icebreaker and somebody says, what is the funniest job you've ever had, some people might not guess that I've had, I actually was a hot dog temperature tester at Fenway Park while I was a grad student at Boston.
So that might be something that somebody would be surprised that I had found myself doing.
[00:06:37] Tommy Thomas: How did you get to Boston?
[00:06:40] Whitney Martin: There were two really great teaching programs that I thought would be a great fit for me and that was the University of Florida and Boston University. I visited both locations and ultimately decided on Boston. The city really was attractive and I met with the faculty and really thrived in that environment.
They knew all of their students and really took the time to develop relationships with their students and help them and so that's ultimately how I ended up in Boston.
++++++++++++++
[00:07:17] Tommy Thomas: So how does somebody with all this language skill and knowledge get into fundraising?
[00:07:22] Whitney Martin: That's a great question. I think the nature of language learners or, even in my case, I became not only a language learner, but a teacher, is that ability to want to translate, desires to be a good listener, tries to be relational with the language, and also a connector.
And so I think those values and those skills that I had on the language side were very valuable as I moved into the fundraising side. I rely on those skills and tools every day as a fundraiser. So that's the way I would describe it, but it is unusual.
[00:08:04] Tommy Thomas: What was your first foray into fundraising?
[00:08:07] Whitney Martin: This was a great opportunity back at UNC. I found myself leaving Boston and coming back to North Carolina to get married to my husband. And so, when I landed at Chapel Hill, I reached out to my network, and it happened to produce an opportunity to work in the humanities - a program called Carolina Performing Arts.
Emil Kang was my supervisor at that time, and he was really trying to get a huge program off the ground at UNC. It was a very expansive interdisciplinary program to incorporate the arts into campus life in a new way. And so, donors kept calling and saying we want to meet you, we want to talk to you, we have some ideas.
And he would pass the phone to me and say, can you just take care of this? Or can you talk to these people and figure out a way to get them engaged? And so, I felt very comfortable talking to these individuals and, connecting them, being the bridge to the larger vision. And that's really how I landed in fundraising.
[00:09:18] Tommy Thomas: Who's played the biggest role in mentoring you in fundraising? And was that formal or informal?
[00:09:25] Whitney Martin: And I have to say that is probably the most important piece to my career in fundraising. I think Rob Parker, who after I left Carolina Performing Arts, I realized, oh, this is an area I really enjoy, and I love academic higher ed.
I wanted to get further into that, so Rob Parker hired me at UNC to be a major gift officer for the UNC Arts and Sciences Foundation. He really trained me formally but then also he has kept in touch with me over the years over 15 years. He'll check in with me and give me advice or he's my source to check in with him as well.
So I'd say Rob Parker and then so many others. Donors have also been that for me too.
[00:10:14] Tommy Thomas: So how has the donor mentored you?
[00:10:18] Whitney Martin: There have been several donors that have really asked me questions about, how can they partner. How can they serve? I didn't always know the answer to how to plug them in appropriately.
And my goal was always fundraising. And really trying to refine my role in those relationships was always a learning experience. But I have a couple of donors that have always kept in touch no matter where I went and wanted to make sure that I was being successful and challenging me and asking me questions and I think they also are great stakeholders, as we develop relationships with them.
[00:11:06] Tommy Thomas: Give me some words and phrases to describe a great chief development officer, or in your case, a great boss.
[00:11:14] Whitney Martin: I think about that a lot because I always think about the people who have mentored me, but also how can I pay that forward because I would love to be that for someone else.
Having a nurturing presence and being president is what stands out to me as attributes of a great Chief Development Officer
And I think that the goal is to get mentored and then you pass that along. So, I think the most important perhaps is just being relational and being able to care in a nurturing way, and nurturing looks different for everybody. But I think having a nurturing presence and being present is what stands out to me as a great chief development officer.
They're showing up for their donors. They're showing up for those that they supervise. And really just making sure that you have everything in your toolbox that you need and challenging you to perhaps improve or shape those areas that you might not be as equipped to do.
[00:12:26] Tommy Thomas: You've seen people probably come and go, although you're still a young professional fundraiser. You've been around a little bit. What causes people to wash out?
[00:12:37] Whitney Martin: A loss of being mission-focused.
In today’s environment, metrics are huge and that can overshadow the missional aspect of the work. If you can’t connect the donor with the mission, there is potential for burnout.
Maybe the mission is not clear anymore. Maybe in our environment right now, metrics are such a big piece and sometimes I think that overshadows the missional aspect of our work because I think our work is to connect the donor with the mission and have an impact. If you're not connected to that, then you do wash out, you do get burned out.
And I think losing that relationship with a mentor or a guide who can be a sounding board and draw you back to the mission is important too. So, it's easy. It happens all the time, but I think that's the key is to keep that connection to the mission strong.
[00:13:31] Tommy Thomas: What have you and your husband learned about a two-parent working household?
[00:13:38] Whitney Martin: Oh my goodness. I have to say, I think we've accepted that it's challenging and not perfect, right? That it's going to be changing as our children grow, as we grow as individuals, and as our professional lives grow. And I think we debunked the myth of this idea of having a balance.
You hear that all the time. Oh, I need a work-life balance. And for us, it was always a myth. It's more or less, what are we prioritizing as a family? And sometimes we did great at doing that. Sometimes we've messed up. But I think for us, communication has been key. Keeping a calendar, and a schedule.
Taking breaks. That might be that John needs a break, I need a break. Brene Brown likened it to percentages, and so that you as a couple bring 200%. And there are days that she would show up and say to her husband, I have 25%. And so that meant that her husband had to make up a hundred and seventy-five percent.
John and I look for resources like that to really affirm what we're trying to accomplish, but also tools that keep that communication going,
[00:15:01] Tommy Thomas: Going back to the fundraising, maybe some of the nuts and bolts, and this may not be a fair question because you're not a Chief Development Officer, but you probably have some notions.
What do you think is a reasonable expectation for the amount of time it takes a major donor rep to learn the field, begin to cover their expenses, and be a net asset to the organization?
[00:15:21] Whitney Martin: We were talking about this with my son the other day, he had heard a Malcolm Gladwell podcast that said you have to have 10,000 hours to really do well on something.
And John and I started to talk to him about that, that looks like maybe four years, being in a role, a professional role eight hours a day, five days a week. And I think that probably rings true in a fundraising position. It takes about three to four years to really get up and rolling, getting to know the landscape, the mission, and the important people who will support the work that you're doing.
[00:16:01] Tommy Thomas: What's the hardest part for you major donor reps?
[00:16:07] Whitney Martin: I think it's trying to do two things simultaneously. Really getting to know the mission and the people who do the core business, in our circumstances, who are the students receiving scholarships?
Who are the faculty that are teaching? And I think the second, at the same time, is developing relationships with donors, the key stakeholders who have been giving or are new, and holding both of those at one time can be tricky. And so I think you have to be comfortable in that dynamic and know that at some point you will become the expert, you'll be the bridge that really helps the donor create impact.
But I think sometimes that discomfort lasts for a while. And so I think sometimes people get discouraged and might leave before they reach that third year or that fourth year of really the fruit of their hard work.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:17:21] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned, I guess in a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago, the difference between the relatively fast pace of raising money in a medical community versus the relatively slow pace of working back in the academy. Can you unpack that?
[00:17:38] Whitney Martin: Yes, it's so interesting the culture at Duke Medicine and then at Duke Divinity and I think you know, in the medical side, the pace, there's urgency in health care, helping someone who received a diagnosis redeem that in some way by using their philanthropy to impact others downstream.
There's an urgency there. On the academic side, while there is an urgency to make sure that our professors and students are equipped and cared for, there's a longer road map that we can be on. I think for me, trying to develop relationships that are not as transactional, but transformative to the mission.
I'm enjoying at Duke Divinity the opportunity to have a little bit more of a road to do that. We did that a lot on the health side, but the pace was just more urgent because of the nature of the health care system and diseases that we were dealing with the same, that they're similar in that there's this urgency to heal, right?
Heal our communities through healthcare or equipping leaders who graduate from the Divinity School to go out and heal others in the community. They’re the same in that way, but the pace and the nature is different for me in making that transition.
[00:19:19] Tommy Thomas: My friend Jeff Jowdy wrote an article called Mastering the In-Person Fundraising Ask.
And he makes a statement, the role of the person making the ask is to get closure on a conversation that's been occurring over many months, if not years. Can you take us into maybe one of those kinds of experiences you've had, obviously without breaking any confidences of the donor, but take us into a long-term ask.
[00:19:47] Whitney Martin: Yes I love that quote. It's so true, and it really names this idea of having a transactional relationship versus a transformational one, right? If it happens over a month, that might be transactional. If it takes months and years, there's a transformation that can occur. And that's where I get really excited.
Inviting donors to have an impact and not just make a deposit in an annual fund account. One example, and this happens to be on the health side, was an opportunity to fundraise for an ALS professorship. There's a dynamic physician Dr. Rick Bedlack, who started and runs the Duke ALS Clinic, and he had a group of very generous donors who had been giving to research for ALS.
And then there were some new donors that wanted to make an impact and it turns out that the priority was we need someone to be dedicated 100 percent to research and training and equipping new ALS doctors in the future. Duke did not have someone dedicated 100 percent to that mission. And so all of these donors who had that urgent need to make an impact because of their diagnosis came together and I think that these were conversations that we'd been having for a while with some of our previous donors.
And the new donors that came along said, we want to help you get to that challenge. We want to raise the 3.5 million to help you get there. And so that invitation really invited people who were complete strangers and had a new focus that they came together to do.
And it actually happened over about two years and there were even peer solicitations. Donors who had been giving challenged the new donors. The new donors challenged the ones who had been giving. And in the end, we had about five to six.
And then we had another group of individuals that gave a good amount as well. So, it was a very meaningful effort and in the end was very successful, and now that person is appointed. It is Rick Bedlack and he's in that role now. It's very exciting to watch what they were able to accomplish together.
[00:22:29] Tommy Thomas: One of the people that I wanted to interview in my podcast but I didn't get to was the late Peb Jackson of Young Life. And I read one of the tributes that someone said about Peb. The person making the tribute commented one day, he asked Peb something like, “How do you know if you'll be a good fundraiser?”
Peb’s response was, “Do people enjoy being around you?”
[00:22:52] Whitney Martin: I love Peb. I remember being at a Young Life conference and he and his wife came, and it was like they were famous in the crowd. Everybody wanted to talk to them. I love that quote. I think he's exactly right. You absolutely have to be relational.
You have to be a good fundraiser, in my mind, or a chief development officer, you have to be motivated to have and care for relationships with others. And development is just relational at its heart and its core. There are often times when I don't perhaps have the same perspective as a donor, but we certainly can find a place to enjoy being around each other and enjoy making an impact on the mission.
When I've interviewed individuals who might be interested in this role, the first thing I ask is, are you relational? And tell me a good story about a relationship that you have. Not how do you do your work in the database or how do you make an ask because a lot of that develops over years of investment, right?
So yeah, I think that's a wonderful quote from Peb Jackson.
[00:24:10] Tommy Thomas: So let me close this out with a little bit of a lightning round. These may or may not have longer answers. I'll let you decide that. I get this idea from Alan Alda's podcast and he always closes out with seven questions having to do with communication.
I haven’t quite got the number seven nailed down and I'm not sure what all mine relate to quite yet, but I'm working on that. What is one small act of kindness that you were shown that you'll never forget?
[00:24:38] Whitney Martin: Oh, gosh, lightning rounds are hard for me.
Generosity of time. Being able to sit with me. And show up in a way that just was able to listen. Generosity of time.
[00:24:55] Tommy Thomas: What's the best compliment anybody's ever paid you?
[00:25:00] Whitney Martin: That I take the time to have a deep relationship with someone.
[00:25:08] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you say?
[00:25:14] Whitney Martin: Don't stress. Life will come and it will be beautiful.
[00:25:22] Tommy Thomas: If you're sitting beside a total stranger at a dinner party and you want to have a meaningful conversation, how do you start?
[00:25:30] Whitney Martin: I always say, tell me about XYZ. I want to hear what they have to say. So, tell me about it.
[00:25:41] Tommy Thomas: What's the most adventurous thing you've ever done? Aside from being a hot dog tester.
[00:25:48] Whitney Martin: Exactly. I actually went on a mission trip to Kenya and that was a very formative experience but felt crazy at the time. I was 19, so can't believe my parents let me go.
[00:26:02] Tommy Thomas: What do you think is the greatest invention of your lifetime?
[00:26:07] Whitney Martin: Oh, I think it's social media, but gosh, I wouldn't call it great. But technology has just soared since I graduated from college.
[00:26:20] Tommy Thomas: If you could meet any historical figure and ask them only one question, who would it be, and what would you ask?
[00:26:30] Whitney Martin: I've always wanted to meet Amelia Earhart, and I've always wanted to know her story and why she wanted to do what she did. And I've always wanted to know what happened to her.
[00:26:45] Tommy Thomas: Any parting words of counsel you would give to rising fundraisers?
[00:26:54] Whitney Martin: I would say, take the time to relish the discomfort of those early days.
And just, find a great mentor. Find a great mentor. That can be someone who's a peer or someone who's been in the field for a while.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:27:14] Tommy Thomas: I'm grateful to Whitney for being our guest today. We've had several seasoned fundraisers as guests in the past. So I thought it was time to have a younger development professional. This conversation with Whitney turned out so good that I planned to have a couple of additional younger professionals as guests in the future. Although Whitney has been in the fundraising field for 15-plus years, she's still learning and growing. I hope that our younger listeners can learn from her candor and this conversation. Join us next week as we continue our journey to make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
++++++++++++++++
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Arthur Satterwhite: If I could leave your audience with one thing it would be: If you wanted to do one thing that would help you to begin this journey of diversity, equity and belonging in your context, but also in your personal life proximity, who are you proximate to? Does your circle look like you? Do the places you shop tend to look more like you? Do the places you worship, if we're really honest, and again, this isn't just about white people, black and brown and others do this too. If the people in your space 90 percent of the time look a lot like you, then I would suggest that's your greatest first barrier. It's hard for us to empathize, let alone have compassion for people that we don't know and we don't understand.
[00:00:48] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Dr. Arthur Satterwhite. Dr. Satterwhite is a recognized voice on leadership and diversity who is passionate about serving and seeing communities flourish. Diversity challenges can be destructive and are some of the greatest barriers to leaders, organizations, and communities in realizing their full potential. Where are they in workplaces or faith spaces? Dr. Satterwhite’s belief that by overcoming issues stemming from increasing diversity, individuals and organizations realized greater human and organizational success. Let's pick up on the conversation that we started last week.
In full disclosure, people should know that I've tried to recruit Arthur at least twice away from ABS and maybe even recently away from Young Life and have not been successful. So, I'm not sure what that says about my recruiting ability or if it says that he knows what he's doing in terms of God's call on his life.
But over, I guess over three or four years, I feel like we've gotten to know each other and I'm very comfortable with you. And so, I've asked Arthur to help me segue into discussing diversity, equity, and belonging on the podcast. We've never really addressed that. And that's a reality in the marketplace.
Let's go there. You've obviously had experience in both. And probably back in the private sector, probably for sure, too, in real estate and with ABS and Young Life. I guess people might argue that diversity, equity, and belonging is either a biblical truth or a social construct.
[00:02:27] Arthur Satterwhite: Yeah, no, it's not exclusive to the faith spaces we serve in, right? This is definitely across industry and space. Everybody is wrestling with diversity, equity, and inclusion. Yes. And belonging. If we just had to jump right in, I think part of the challenge that many organizations and the research highlights is that I think the stat was 75 percent of DEI initiatives fail.
And then when you start to dig into why they fail in most contexts, in most cases, it's because DEI is approached as a numbers game. We got to go recruit more fill in the blank, more people of color, more women, more whatever that gap in your population is it's a numbers game.
You just got to go recruit more. The challenge with recruiting more, is that if you haven't done the work organizationally to address the cultural issues or the systemic issues that say to those more that your place is maybe not safe or that they don't fully belong unless they assimilate.
Like one of my colleagues often says, Hey, we can get them in the front door, but the problem is they go right back out the back door. And we see a lot of these organizations that are approaching it as if it's purely a numbers game, it's just a matter of how do we get more.
The other challenge is how you treat DEB as purely something to regulate, right? Equity. We got to put the policies in to regulate, justice and equality. I love how Dr. John Swinton said it when he came and spoke with our community, he's like when was the last time you were actually able to legislate love?
When has legislation ever changed the hearts and minds of anyone throughout history? It hasn't. Right? Yeah, it often just, either perpetuates further inequity or creates, instead of creating allies and advocates, maybe creates more adversaries, because people have resented and everything else.
The goal isn't diversity or equity. The goal isn't even inclusion. As much as those things matter, the goal is belonging.
Now hear me, you still need legislation, you still need policies, to enforce what's new, maybe what's uncomfortable. But the first work. And this is what I am most proud of about our work at Young Life. When we, at least in my tenure, began down this road we said intentionally up front; Hey, the goal isn't diversity or equity. The goal isn't even inclusion. As much as those things matter, the goal is belonging.
How do we create a culture and community that says to every person who is called to serve young people, regardless of their cultural background, that you belong here, you belong in and amongst us, and that belonging means you're welcomed, you're loved. Shout out to Eric Carter in his work on belonging - you're invited, you're needed. I love how he put it that you belong when you're missed. When you weren't at that meeting and someone comes up to you after and says, man, ah, where were you? Like that meeting was so much better if you were there, that gathering, that event, that plan, whatever. That’s when you belong.
What I've been an advocate for and pushed in our community with the help of Newt, our President, and so many others the fruit of belonging, the fruit of creating a community and a culture where everybody knows and feels and senses that they belong, more diverse people are going to want to be there.
Because they know it's a good place to be. They're going to feel equitable, the equity of your community, when they are there, because they're going to experience and know that their voice matters, that they are empowered to be full members and parts of that community.
They're going to feel included because, again, if they belong, you want them there. You want to make sure that they get to that table, that they're at the right table and the right conversation. Diversity, equity, inclusion are the fruit of belonging. So that's been our work.
That's been our aim. What are the things in our context, in our culture, in our organization, in our systems, our structures, holistically, let's be honest about our community and really get intentional about rooting out where are those things, conscious or unconscious, explicit or implicit that may say to someone, you don't fully belong, or you can't belong unless you come and assimilate into this.
And again, we're not fully there, like many other organizations who are having the same conversations. We're not fully there. We still got our issues. We're still wrestling with places where we haven't yet fully been able or already to remove the blinders, but we're being intentional.
Being intentional about needing to first be people who see, because once we become people who see, we can be those who then create belonging for others.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:01] Tommy Thomas: I know one of your superpowers is strategy so how does or does strategy overlay into this discussion?
[00:07:13] Arthur Satterwhite: Oh, absolutely. I think inherently we must all become more strategic leaders. I forget who said it, one of these leaders was probably Drucker. If it's something smart, we don't know who it is. We just say it's Drucker, right? We'll just say Drucker once said change is the only constant.
My dad used to ask me “What are the implications of each decision? Are you comfortable with the implications? Are they taking you where you want to go?”
And to understand change and to navigate change towards whatever that end result is, we have to be thinking strategically. My dad said when I was younger, what are the implications of each decision? And are we comfortable with what those are? Are those implications going to move us towards that next thing?
I'm told that war analogies are just bad, we should stop using them, but it's like in war. Just taking this hill in front of you, moving you towards the victory that you're seeking in, but to win the war or, by taking this hill, do you spend all of your resources such that you're going to lose every hill after that, as we think about, D.E.B.
The work we’re doing is about being strategic. It's about understanding all of the battles that we're going to have to fight. Let’s not be rainbow eyed and rose-colored glasses wearing, let's be real about this – it’s hard work.
It's change work. It's work that isn't simply about getting more people, putting more policy regulation. This is heart work. We're changing the heart, which means we're touching on, even in professional context, issues of identity, issues of power. Real world cultural implications that we're now having to struggle with in our boardrooms.
If we are to create spaces that truly see the difference in gaps. Every time I give a talk around belonging, especially in our spaces, I often start with one or both of two sort of soliloquies. The first one is belonging is a gospel issue. It's not a cultural impetus. It's a gospel issue.
Why do I say that? What happened at the Fall? We all lost our access to the Kingdom. We no longer belonged. Right? We got kicked out the garden. We were set aside because of our sins, so we no longer belonged. And that was the work that Jesus did. It was, that whole, starting with calling out the Israelites, and everything through Jesus on the cross was God's effort to create belonging for each of us so that we can once again belong in his Kingdom.
And then what did Jesus do? He said, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. Go do what I did. That means we should be those who create belonging for other people. I often open with that so people can see that this is a gospel issue. This isn't a cultural issue. As much as there is a cultural zeitgeist happening around us, right?
We're in but not of the world, but let's not forget that we're still in the world. The second thing I often open with, and in these rooms there are a lot of white people, especially white men, we need you to belong to, I think too often this conversation is seen as a zero sum argument, and either, or, this false dichotomy that in order for people to belong, that means you've got to give up your seat.
No, I think that is a really minimalist view. And I think the real opportunity, at least from a Kingdom perspective is really, how do we build bigger tables? How do we build bigger tables that have room for more seats? And often when I start with those places, it helps us to then have some conversations.
Hey, can we talk about privilege? I know it's a big trigger word, and it's maybe been used to make you feel guilty, but from a Kingdom perspective, from a biblical perspective, God's always been about blessing people. The people throughout the Bible, some have had more, and some have had less.
The question is, what are you doing with what God has blessed you with? Are you hoarding it and using it for yourself or for your own? Or again, from a Kingdom perspective, as we saw with Jesus, are you using it to benefit others? Are you using it to create space for others? You were blessed, not for yourself, but you were blessed to be a blessing.
If I had to shout out some of the preachers that I've had the privilege of sitting under, I think those two things really help. They've helped our community, but as I've been around other communities, they've helped them to then enter in to have some real conversations around race and gender and generations, even abilities. Shout out to Johnny and friends and Daryl and the team over there, Laura and the team over there, they're doing some amazing work.
What they have to wrestle with. And as they look to serve our friends with disabilities is very practical realities, right? John Swinton came and talked to us about, let's talk about time. He has a great book, being friends with time and for able bodied people. Our relationship to time is very different.
I'm a three on the Enneagram. I'm an achiever. I'm productivity and pace is just wrapped up in who I am. But what Dr. Swinton helped me and others to see is hey, your relationship to time is based out of your able-bodied cultural experience. So, when you approach the disability community and, sometimes you have to slow down.
You have to factor for other things. Like you can't just keep running at that because in doing so you are intentionally, maybe unconsciously and unintentionally, whether it's discriminating or just not being mindful, all of those things. Something as simple and practical as that as an example of, where else does that exist?
How do we unconsciously or unintentionally say to women in our context that you're less than or you're not equal that maybe you don't bring as much, where do we say to younger generations, you don't know enough yet, you're not smart enough yet.
The things that we just say in passing that we don't think is hurtful. We don't think is minimizing. We don't think, stunts belonging, but does, right? Where did we say to people of color, black and brown and others, maybe, your cultural context and experience, you got to tweak some things.
It's less than, it has less dignity. Maybe, again, we don't say that outwardly, but maybe unintentionally, unconsciously, our systems, our structures, our processes, our policies, our approaches, our culture can send messages that we don't think are there because they're normal to us and they're comfortable for us.
But because we don't stop to think about them, to look at them, to turn the Rubik's Cube and see them from a different perspective, we miss the, Oh, when I did that, I thought I was saying this, but that's what you heard. Oh, okay. That's different.
[00:13:46] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go back maybe to your upbringing in Jersey. You probably were raised in a fairly ethnic diverse community, I'm guessing.
[00:13:55] Arthur Satterwhite: My upbringing was a tale of two cities. And really my education probably speaks to it the most. So, from kindergarten to fourth grade, I went to this private Christian school there in Central Jersey that I was one of five African American students. In the whole school, not just in the class.
And yeah, that's five years of being a super minority. And the amount of time you spend at school, that was my community. Fourth grade, ended up leaving there and my parents moved me to the public school, which was the complete opposite. Now it's 80% black and brown.
So, talk about culture shock, right? My parents, my mom, especially, was very intentional about pouring into me black history, African American history, African history. I got comfortable and understood my cultural ancestry and background.
My mom was very intentional about teaching me Black History - African and African American history. At an early age, I was beginning to understand my cultural ancestry and background.
When I look back at that through life, it has been this series of going from one cultural extreme to another. When I went to Monmouth University, I don't have these specific stats, but black and brown folk, we were the super minority when I was there in the early 2000s, and the majority of us played sports.
The rest of the population came from pretty well off spaces. And again, I don't say that as a knock against Monmouth, that was just the reality. It's a private school that was very expensive. Fast forward my early career, I'm in now boardrooms in New York City.
Those rooms, again in the early 2000s, there weren't a lot of people that looked like me. Again, not just skin color, but then also generational. So I learned at a young age how to navigate these cultural extremes which I think has benefited me, where we've had to call out another superpower.
And I've been told I'm a very effective bridge builder. Even a cultural translator, helping folks to begin to hear one another when they maybe lack that competence, that really comes out of exposure, if I could leave your audience with one thing, if you wanted to do one thing that would help you to begin this journey of diversity, equity, and belonging in your context, but also in your personal life proximity.
Who are you proximate to? Does your circle look like you? Do the places you shop tend to look more like you? Do the places you worship, if we're really honest, and again, this isn't just about white people, black and brown and others do this too. If the people in your space 90 percent of the time look a lot like you, then I would suggest that's your greatest first barrier. It's hard for us to empathize, let alone have compassion for people that we don't know, and we don't understand.
[00:16:45] Tommy Thomas: Go back to your sports team. Did they create a sense of belonging and how did that work out?
[00:16:50] Arthur Satterwhite: Again, I had the privilege of sitting under some great coaches. I would say the sports teams I sat on, to steal a line from some of my military friends, you go into military and the only color is the red, white, and blue. As I've heard the other colors fade away because you're in the trenches. These are the people that, I need to know you're my brother, my sister, you're going to have my back. I got your back.
We're going to get through this together. Playing soccer, especially at a high level, there is a bit of that where that the team culture is like, hey, everything else is about us together going out. Taking this hill, whether it's a game, practice, whatever. But in that because we built those relationships and because, soccer, at least at the spaces I played, tended to be more diverse.
Playing soccer in Spain, Peru and other international cities helped me to appreciate the value and dignity of people from different backgrounds.
I was exposed to some more diverse cultures, I got to travel the world. The relationships created the opportunity for me to learn more about whether it was my Latino friends, my Asian friends, my Indian friends, having the privilege of going down and playing in Peru and over in Spain and in other places helped me to just see and appreciate the value, the dignity that each of these, cultural backgrounds, people of different ethnicities bring to the table. I say that's a unique experience because many of the people that I know, especially in the evangelical religious spaces, a lot of them have not had that cultural exposure. They have not had that intentional, proximate relationship with people that look different, that think different, that come from different backgrounds.
And I'd say that's maybe one of, again, just the biggest stumbling blocks as I engage with folks in our community to try to help them begin to take steps towards belonging. It's man, we have to create understanding and relationship before we can then circle back and begin to have those other conversations.
So what do we do? How do we actually go and create belonging? Because there's a difference between centering oneself. Because I'd say that's the other problem that I see in a lot of this work. There's a lot of research and a lot of writing out there on allyship and advocacy and it's good.
It's necessary. But the challenge is when the allyship and the advocacy is less about the people that you're trying to be an ally or an advocate for, and it's actually more about yourself being seen as that advocate or that ally that can be just as dangerous and just as detrimental because those who don't belong when they see that your advocacy and your allyship is, disingenuous it further otherizes them.
Now they're a victim. You're still disempowering them, disenfranchising them, even as you were trying to advocate not being an ally of them.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:19:34] Tommy Thomas: We read in the news every two or three weeks something about, I guess particularly in education, affirmative action and representation. Can you give us, at least from your perspective, the difference there?
[00:19:47] Arthur Satterwhite: Yeah, affirmative action, as I've read it and, as I've seen it, it was a strategy. And you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It was a reaction to, people not being invited, not being recruited, not being, you're having access to many of our spaces. As good government does, government treats everything with a broad sword, right? If you're a hammer, then everything's a nail. So, we came out with legislation, which, again, was, I think, good in spirit and nature and intent.
But the challenge is, again, we just replaced oppression with oppression. It's okay, so we're not going to look at this. We're only going to look at this. We're not going to recruit this. We're only going to recruit this. And I think, again, the spirit and intent was yes, we don't have these people in here, so we have to go recruit them.
I'd say part of the opportunity and representation, when we change our perspective, it's not simply about legislating, getting different people in the seats. It really is about a value and an appreciation and seeing the dignity and necessity of having different voices, diverse voices at the table.
Then all of a sudden, we start to think about who's not at the table. And why they're not at the table. Many of the organizations that I've had the privilege to consult for, even now, work for, as we've had this conversation I had one leader in a former organization, they were hiring for a senior level position and they really wanted it to be a diverse hire because they saw the gaps and they truly valued the, oh man, we're missing this perspective around the table. So, we want to make sure that we be our intentional about looking for that. Again, it still was about, we want to hire the best person, but you can't ensure that you're hiring the best person if you're not being intentional and looking in diverse places.
So, the occasion point in this situation, they were going back to the same places that they always recruited from. Which those places tended to be more white, came out of more Christian schools, which trend more white and more male. And they were just like, man, I just, I don't understand.
Like all we're getting is white men applying. And their takeaway from that was that there was no women or black and brown people that were qualified for the role. And I was like, ah, I don't know, that's the takeaway. The takeaway might be, maybe we need to go, if the pond you're fishing in is only giving you one type of fish, then you probably need to go figure out, are there other ponds that offer me a broader diversity of fish, right?
If this stream only has salmon, you're not going to catch trout in it. If you want trout, you got to go figure out where the trout are. And that's one thing that, at Young Life, we've been trying to be really intentional about as we are looking to recruit for roles up and down the organization it really is, it's not about, oh, we're only going to hire black people or brown people or women, I think again, that intentional, while there's good intent in that it does diminish the opportunity.
Which is no, let's go find the most qualified people. But to find the most qualified people, that means we have to look in more places. That may require more work. It may require more uncomfortable conversations because we're going to places we've never been, and we don't have relationships, but it will help us to see that it'll actually elevate the bars.
I would suggest that we have, whether it's a role or an opportunity within organizations, as we are exposed to people who bring diverse qualifications and backgrounds and experience that could be just to steal a quote from the Bible immeasurably greater than we ever asked or thought about.
[00:23:25] Tommy Thomas: Good. I'm going to close out maybe with a little lightning round of maybe lighter questions. Probably shorthand. First though, I guess I've learned that not always, but what's a small act of kindness that you were once shown that you will never forget?
[00:23:46] Arthur Satterwhite: I'll point back to that experience I shared earlier -that mentor who punched me in the nose at the moment did feel kind, but it was kind because it came from a truly genuine and caring space. It was like, I want the best of you, and I want the best for you.
So, I'm going to say some hard things to you right now, because I need you to hear them in the hopes that they help you to begin to see and reflect more.
[00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: What's the best compliment anyone's ever paid you?
[00:24:24] Arthur Satterwhite: My wife, that she loves me first and foremost, and I still don't understand why at times. I had to point to my team recently, as we were just reflecting on the last year and just talking about collaboration there, it was just a simple hey, we get it, yeah, we get it. We get why we've been doing this intentional work to learn how to collaborate, to build a familiarity with one another and then the clarity around one another's roles. And then the intentionality that I've called them to their acknowledgement lately.
We get it. We see it. This is good. That was really good.
[00:25:00] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself something. What would you tell him?
If I could go back in time and tell a younger version of myself something, I would tell him – You’re enough, Dude, you’re enough!
[00:25:07] Arthur Satterwhite: Oh, I've thought about this one a bunch. I would tell him, dude, you're a head case. Go get some help. No, I would tell him you're enough.
When you're from a non-dominant culture, whether that's black or brown, racial ethnicity, non-dominant or generational non dominant, most of our communities have some version of the talk that parents are giving their kids, you need to be smarter, you need to work harder.
You need to be better. There’s rightness in that because it pushes us to be successful, but then the downside of that can leave you with a complex where you're wrestling with, am I enough, am I enough in these rooms and these spaces, when will I be enough? So, if I did could go back and tell my younger self anything else is just let him know you're enough, dude.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas This has been a great conversation. I appreciate you carving out this time out of your schedule and you sharing these things with us. And I'm sure as I unpack this you may be on the list of people that get invited back. Thank you so much.
Arthur Satterwhite Tommy, Thank you for having me. It's a privilege and an honor. Just grateful for you and your leadership, my friend.
Tommy Thomas In addition to Arthur’s day job with Young Life, he does a lot of speaking and training around diversity, equity and belonging. I'm posting a link to his personal website in the episode notes. Next week, keep doing your part to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Young Life Website
Satterwhite Company
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Arthur on LinkedIn
Over the last 10 years or so, I've also just gotten some really good mentors in my life. People who have modeled for me what it looks like to be confident and comfortable in your own skin, to know who you are, intimately, such that, you could just live that out, shed those maybe people pleasing tendencies that some of us carry, the need to be acknowledged and celebrated, to be seen.
++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dr. Arthur Satterwhite. Arthur is the Vice President for Strategy at Young Life. Prior to Young Life Arthur was with the American Bible Society where he served as Manager of Strategic Partnerships and the Leader of Strategy for ABS’s largest ever domestic initiative. He took his BS in Business Administration from Monmouth University, his MA in Religious Education from New York Theological Seminary, and his Doctor of Strategic Leadership from Regent University. Let's pick up on that conversation.
[00:00:59] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional career, take me back to your childhood. What was it like growing up?
[00:01:08] Arthur Satterwhite: Yeah, for what it's worth, you and your listeners, I'm a Jersey boy through and through. Don't hold it against me. I was born, 1983 was a good year, I'll just say. My mom is also originally from New Jersey. My dad was originally from Ohio then found his way to New Jersey and grew up in Somerset. Which most people probably have never heard of, Rutgers, New Brunswick, it was right there around the corner.
I had a good upbringing. Solid, middle class, suburban community, really diverse. My mom was devout in her faith. My dad as well. But my mom was, one of those if you're not in the church, you're up to no good. Much of my childhood was spent in the church most nights, whether that was Bible study, youth group, choir, attending choir with my mom.
When I graduated high school, I left my faith behind. I had so many questions. I was never fully atheist, but I was firmly agnostic.
Ironically, as a millennial, you spend most of that time in the church. But when I ended up graduating high school, I left my faith behind as well. For as much time as I spent in the church, I still had so many questions that it felt like the church, or at least the church that I was going to at the time, was giving me default answers like, hey, just forget about it. You don't need to know that. Just have faith, just trust in the Lord. And, for the curious, insatiable learner that I am, that wasn't enough. So, when I went up to college, I was never fully atheist, but I was firmly agnostic. I felt like there was something there. But what I was hearing and getting from the church just wasn't enough and it wasn't really until my early career that I came back to exploring and finding my faith.
[00:02:49] Tommy Thomas: What was the greatest gift your parents gave to you?
[00:02:54] Arthur Satterwhite: Oh man. My dad and I joke about it to this day. One of the lessons that he has instilled into me, that's carried through most of my life is if you're grown up enough to make grown up decisions, then you're grown up enough to deal with grown up consequences, I remember him saying that to me as early as five and six years old.
Advice from my dad – if you are grown up enough to make grown up decisions, then you’re grown up enough to deal with grown up consequences.
And that's been something that has been a theme throughout my life. Before you make a decision, be confident and comfortable that you're willing to endure whatever consequences or implications may come for that decision. That I would even point to as one of the really early formative introductions to strategy for me, as I now have the privilege of leading Young Life as the VP of Strategy, the idea alone of understanding a decision and the consequences or implications of that decision is critical to strategy.
My mom, God bless her. She passed about two years ago now. Her legacy lives long and large in me. I am fruit of her. She actually said that to me, you know a few years back. She was like, I formed you, I just need you to know that and the tendrils and the tentacles, the intentionality. One of the things thatI look back on fondly, I was always busy, if I wasn't in the church then I was in some sort of sport. I played soccer, basketball, baseball, you name it I probably tried it. I was in the choir. I played an instrument. And it was in that same conversation. She's like, I just need you to understand the strategy intentionality. I wanted to make sure that one, you weren't in these streets getting into trouble. But then two, I wanted you to be exposed and have a varied experience such that as you started to wrestle with who am I and what am I called to bring and do to this world?
You had a broad experience to pick from instead of a narrow experience that sort of maybe forced you in a certain direction. So, I appreciate that and that's something that I've again continued to carry on into my adulthood. I love broad, diverse experiences exposing myself in a lot of ways because you learn from the broader which also helps you focus on what matters.
[00:05:06] Tommy Thomas: How'd you decide on which college to go to and how'd you pick a major?
[00:05:12] Arthur Satterwhite: So, soccer was my thing, if the church was, maybe a cultural space, a safe space, soccer was my church. Growing up I started at age four, I had the privilege to travel the world.
Play at some of the elite spaces for youth soccer at the time with many of the folks who are now professional or coaching. And when it came down to graduating high school, whereas a lot of my family went to HBCUs like Howard. I had one goal in mind coming out of high school.
I wanted to be a professional soccer player, so I followed the college scholarship money to Monmouth University on the Jersey shore.
I was going to be a professional soccer player. I went where they gave me scholarships. I ended up at Monmouth University in the Jersey shore. Ironically didn't leave the state. So when I say I'm Jersey through and through, it's down to even my undergrad. And it was a brilliant time.
I started my undergrad thinking I was going to play soccer. If soccer didn't work out, I’ll be a sports therapist. But yeah, after my first year and realizing that I'm no good at biology, I pivoted into the business and really the thinking at the time was like, what can you do? Because I didn't know who I wanted to be beyond the soccer player at the time.
What can you do that would have the broadest application and serve you through the rest of your life? So again, that strategic thinking when you went into what major? So, I ended up doing business and marketing because business is universal in any industry. In any space, you have to understand business and then being able to market or sell or communicate is also just a life skill.
So, if I couldfocus on that, then, say soccer doesn't pan out, then I could figure out what does. And I didn't have the skill set and education to be successful.
[00:06:48] Tommy Thomas: Staying with soccer for a minute, what was the biggest lesson you learned from team sports?
[00:06:53] Arthur Satterwhite: The team. I would say, how to exist within the team, how to be successful and to partner and collaborate with teams. I do honestly believe it's a lost art. Even at our organization, we're talking about, what does collaboration look like and how do we do that? An organization that's 80 plus years old, history has been steeped in kind of. We send people to go to be with kids.
There is this sense, even a cultural drive to be that hero to go and take the ministry by the horns. That is your personal burden - to go and serve that community, not just in our organization, but in many organizations, there is an underappreciation for collaboration if not really a lack of understanding or experience even collaborating.
So, when I look back at my soccer career - the 20 something years that was a key lesson that I took away from that, that has carried throughout my life. I see the value and the potential of a team. I understand what it means to be the player in a team, right?
We've all seen those teams that are not really teams, but really a group of all stars. You think about maybe some of these recent, U.S. Olympic basketball teams that haven't been as successful, versus those early Dream Teams that were able to come together and take these unique, diverse talents and somehow fit them together to be more than the whole the individual could bring it by themselves.
Soccer taught me about coming together, taking each player’s unique and diverse talents, and somehow fitting them together to be more than the individual could bring.
That's what soccer taught me. Our team was never the best team in the nation or even the state, but I had the privilege of being on teams with really great coaches who were able to take our unique, diverse talents that together we were able to take down some of the bigger teams and bigger names in youth soccer.
[00:08:48] Tommy Thomas: When you think about the coaches in your life what's the greatest lesson you think you learned from a coach?
[00:08:55] Arthur Satterwhite: Coaching, like leadership, is not about you. I had the privilege, like I said, sitting at the feet of just some really great coaches. I think of a Scott Byrd, my high school soccer coach, Robert McCourt, my college coach, my father, who was my coach when I was much younger, Malcolm Murphy, who was a coach for several of my youth teams. The consistent theme through each of these coaches was it wasn't just about the W. Of course, they wanted to win, and they wanted us to win.
A good soccer coach develops and prepares the players to be able to achieve their potential, whether it’s in the game of soccer or in life.
But for them it was really more about the development. They saw their role, their position, as the success of their position, as that these young boys, eventually men would be developed and prepared to be men, and to be able to really achieve their potential, whether that's in the game of soccer or in life.
That's the role and that's carried forward for me in leadership where my leadership philosophy is like, the role of the leader, it's not about you. It's about the people that you are blessed and privileged to serve for whatever season or chapter that is your call to serve them.
How do you call them, take that cast of characters, call them to pull and bring their gifts to the table such that they can continue to grow and be more? Realize their potential and that the team or organization can be the beneficiary of that impact.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:10:24] Tommy Thomas: Let's change gears to your early career, the first time you ever had a staff reporting to you. What do you remember?
[00:10:30] Arthur Satterwhite: Oh man, you're pulling me back. First time I ever had staff reporting to me. It's tricky. There's the official staff. Early in my career, my first career before I got into ministry, first in American Bible Society I started off in real estate property management working in New York city.
Which is a really fun, chaotic space. Started first on the development side, but then moved to the rental side. And early in my career, my leaders, supervisors, showed me a great favor. They saw something in me. And while I didn't necessarily have direct reports in the way of the staff in our buildings who often reported to the supers or your resident managers that live there. A lot of them really deferred that leadership to me because one of my superpowers has always been people development.
So I ended up, of course, doing what does that scheduling look like? And just doing a lot of that, care for our staff in our buildings. But it really taught me at an early age. Yes, you have your objectives and your goals as an organization. Part of how you motivate people to help you achieve those goals is by caring for them by putting them first.
So that idea of servant leadership. I forget her name at the moment, but the former CEO of Popeye's, (Cheryl Bachelder) has done some really great work in writing on this, just talking about serving leadership is often misunderstood. It's like we serve for the sake of service. Sure. But because that leadership is part of it, it should lead to some sort of goal or the outcome or impact.
And I learned that early on where I was successful to motivate people to help us achieve more. Whether that was getting the building launched on time, creating exceptional experiences for our residents, whatever it was by caring for them, by putting our staff first, by letting them know that they were more than just an asset of the organization, but that they were people that we wanted to pour into and see continue to improve and grow.
It wasn't until American Bible Society where I'd say I started to get into formal line leadership where it was interesting. It was a new experience, but at the same time it wasn't because I had been doing it in practice for several years already.
And the challenge for me, I would say then, even still today, is I often find myself leading amidst change - leading in the margins, leading in spaces that are either forming or transitioning. I haven't yet had the luxury of just stepping into a space that it was just completely stable. I envy those leaders. So, I've always had to work with my teams and do that forming and norming work, that early work of what does it look like to cast vision to galvanize people to stack hands on a vision and move in a direction?
But then at the same time, help them see clearly where and how not just their role, but their unique gifts and calling aligns with a vision, directly contributes vision for the whole. And I think because of that experience in that background, that's been something that I think is I had to say here, I think these are my superpowers, right? I can't lift 500. I can't turn invisible. But the one thing, the few things that I do believe I've gotten really good at is building culture, casting vision and talent and team development.
[00:14:00] Tommy Thomas: At what time in your career did you get comfortable in your leadership skin?
[00:14:04] Arthur Satterwhite: Do we ever? Most don't. Exactly. I think there's always a little bit of imposter syndrome that every leader carries. And I think that comes with the burden of leadership, that responsibility you carry that you're short of being a full-on narcissist. You're concerned. I don't want to mess it up.
I don't want to mess it up for the organization. I don't want to mess these people up. They're in my care. I don't want to mess up. Can I do this? I'll say my doctoral journey was hugely formative. And it was through that process I learned a lot about myself.
But, combined with that, I also, over the last, oh, wow, it's 2023. I can't believe it's 2023. Over the last 10 years or so, I've also just gotten some really good mentors in my life. People who have modeled for me, what does it look like to be confident and comfortable in your own skin, to know who you are intimately such that, you could just live that out, shed those maybe people pleasing tendencies that some of us carry, the need to be acknowledged and celebrated, to be seen.
Some of that, as I've seen them and now trying to model in my own leadership. You don't need to please the world, and you don't draw affirmation from the world as you get clear and comfortable and confident in your own skin, knowing who you are, and yes, whose you are, your priorities, your sense of worth, the things that give you life.
It's only been in the past 5-6 years that I have gotten to a place where I know who I am, what I can do, and what I am good at.
And I would say it's really only been in the last, five or six years as I came through my doctoral experience. I feel like I've gotten to a place where I know who I am. I know what I can do and what I'm good at. And I also know what I can’t, and I don't try to. And again, given my preference for collaboration, I think it's been a beautiful thing that's helped me to better collaborate and invite people to the table.
[00:16:01] Tommy Thomas: What was the best piece of advice a mentor has given you thus far?
[00:16:08] Arthur Satterwhite: I won't cuss on your podcast, but I had a mentor and this was early in my doctoral process to where I was learning so much and I was so excited about what I was learning and being able to put it into practice at the organization I was serving at the time that I just started showing up in meetings like this book says, and this leader says, Oh, here's this Bye.
Bye Theory and this framework. Why aren't we doing these things? And one day he just pulled me aside and he was like, stop being a, you're filling the blank, wait, what? And he was like, dude, we all know you're smart. No, we get it. We're excited. You're going through this and we're eager to listen.
You have to leave room for others. Yeah, you don't have to over explain everything and,use all these sources and everything. You just be real, and that punch in the nose really forced me to reflect on where's that coming from? And it was my own sense of insecurity. And really wanting to be seen as an authority, and I've consistently throughout my entire career, again, as a millennial, but as a millennial who has been consistently elevated, at a rapid pace, I've always found myself to be the youngest in the room. And at most times, especially in these spaces that I've had the privilege to serve, I'm usually one of, if not the only person of color in that room.
And those are hard places to be the super minority, in those spaces. And having experienced, I won't say full on discrimination, based on those things, but definitely treated differently because of those things. As my mom and dad said, at an early young age, son, you're always going to have to work harder.
You're always going to have to be better. You're always going to have to be smarter. And that's something that carried forward, which, yes, helped me to achieve at high levels, but then also on some degree, maybe created a little bit of a complex that, again those words from that mentor in that moment helped me to really snap out of it.
Man, you don't have to prove yourself to anybody but the Lord. Are you doing this for others affirmation and acknowledgement, or are you doing this for the Lord, for the purpose or better opportunity that you and your talents and gifting could bring or could be a catalyst to create?
So, a lot of it really did shift, in these last 10 years or so, as I got really comfortable and confident in who I am, understanding and knowing my identity, therapy helps doing that work. But just being really intentional about Lord, who have you created me to be, called me to be, and where and how can I live that out so that I can add the greatest value to your kingdom?
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:19:02] Tommy Thomas: Back in your American Bible Society experience, you were Senior Manager of Youth and Millennial Engagement. Now you probably work with, if not the largest, one of the largest youth engagement organizations in the world. Let's go to some, and I know it's sometimes dangerous to generalize generational differences.
So if I go too far there you push back on me because you're more seasoned in that than I am. But I'm just thinking about, in your office today you probably have baby boomers. You've probably got some Gen Xers, you've got some Millennials and you might have some Gen Z people.
What are you observing about those four generations, if you will, in terms of how they work as a team? How they view teamwork?
[00:19:49] Arthur Satterwhite: It's a great question. And there's been lots of books written, just in the last decade alone, which by the way, millennials, it's our time to shine right now.
We went from being the problem child to, now it's those Gen Z kids over there. Soon it'll be, Gen Alpha. So, I'm sure Gen Z, don't worry. We'll take our eyes off you soon. Yeah, I would say it’s a really opportunistic time, but also very difficult time in many workspaces and faith spaces, because this is the first time in history that we've had this many generations existing together in one space.
I would say opportunistic time, but also very difficult time in many workspaces and faith spaces, because this is the first time in history that we've had this many generations existing together in one space.
You have the eldest generation, the greatest generation, right? The heels of the world war, many are dying off sadly. But many are still in our spaces, even in the workplace in some places. But then you also, now at the youngest, you have Gen Z coming along.
And then they're starting to enter into the workforce and want to put their stamp on. So you got the eldest generation boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, Millennials. And Gen Z - five generations existing together each with their own generational culture that has been formed by the unique experiences that they've been exposed to.
· The Greatest Generation exposed to the World War,
· Millennials and Gen Xers, exposed to 9-11 and terrorism,
· Boomers, the Flower Power generation, and
· Gen Z, the first to be digitally native.
Those are very distinct generational influences, that again, if you haven't done that work to develop your cross-cultural competency, or what David Livermore calls cultural intelligence, think about emotional intelligence. It's all about our ability to successfully navigate social context and situations in healthy ways. Self-awareness, self-regulation, cultural intelligences, our ability to navigate different distinct cultural spaces. And sadly, there is not a lot of work being done or enough work, I'll say, being done in that space, especially to the generational differences and distinctions.
Think about it, right? Why do we make the young generation at the time, the target? Older generations like, oh, they don't have work ethic or, oh, they don't get this, back in my day. There's fear in that because all the generations sense the change that a younger generation is bringing.
But it's also just a lack of understanding. Why are they different? Why are their values so distinct from mine? Why are they pressing in, right? You think about Gen Z and millennials to agree and just things like the climate and justice, right? Some of the narratives and headlines of this time speak to what these younger generations have a heart and a value for and you think about older generations. Like I think of my father and my uncle, man, they were just like, look, your job is to go to work, work hard, you put money on the table and come home. They valued work, they valued work ethic, they valued professionalism, and it's not that younger generations don't value those things, they just look different.
And younger generations, it's not that the older generations before believe and valued was bad it was just informed by their time. I like to push my communities to the opportunity of how do we build bridges between one another so that we can hear and learn from one another?
What I love about my mentoring relationships, it's not just mentoring one way where the more seasoned experience, usually typically older than me, that person is pouring into me, they don't see me as a glass that's half empty that they got to fill up. No, I'm a glass that's half full.
And this needs to be a mutually beneficial relationship. So, they're mentoring me, and I'm reverse mentoring them. And together, we're learning, we're growing. And by extension, as we all tend to be in leadership spaces, our teams, and the organizations we represent are made better. I think that's the opportunity for many workplaces, but also faith spaces.
When you think about the church - it has always been generationally diverse. But there are some who would point back to the early to mid 1900s,all of a sudden, we're starting to segregate our churches. They'd always been segregated by race.
That goes back farther, but I'm talking about by generation. All of a sudden, we got youth ministry and children's ministry and, no longer kids sitting in the sanctuary with the parents. And suddenly, we've got young adult ministry over here and this ministry over there.
And by segregating our communities, we actually diminished our capacity to navigate those generationally or culturally different spaces together as one community.
[00:24:37] Tommy Thomas: Is there anything you can cite either from ABS or Young Life that either of those organizations are doing well in creating this culture of communication between the generations?
[00:24:49] Arthur Satterwhite: Yeah, cheers to my current organization, Young Life. I don't think this is overly braggadocious to say. I think we are one of the best, if not the best out there, that's doing relational ministry. The core of what we do, our modus operandi, healthy adults in the lives of kids.
Which by the way, the research points to that. The surgeon general of the U.S. has so many studies that talk about the value of the relationship between a healthy adult and the life of kids and how the positive benefits of that reduce at-risk behavior, so many different things.
That's been our modus operandi for 80 plus years. That's what we do. Young Life exists to introduce adolescents to Jesus and help them grow in their faith. And that's really about adults who are called to go to do life on life ministry with kids to earn the right to be heard, right?
We don't start with, hey, here's our five steps of evangelism. We simply show up. Whether that's at the football game or the coffeehouse, we show up and we genuinely just want to build relationship with young people with the understanding and knowledge that at some point during that relationship they're going to be curious. Why do you do this? Why do you care about me? Why do you love me? And that's just an open-door opportunity for us to say because Jesus first loved me. And because I'm called to be like my daddy, to be like my Jesus, that means I'm called to love you.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Next week we'll continue this conversation with Arthur Satterwhite. Our focus will be Diversity Equity and Belonging.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Young Life Website
Satterwhite Company
Arthur referenced the writing/work of Cheryl Bachelder – former CEO of Popeye’s Chicken. Here are a couple of references to her work:
Leaders – “Former CEO of Popeyes Used Servant Leadership to Save the Company”
Harvard Business Review – “The CEO of Popeyes on Treating Franchisees as the Most Important Customers”
Entrepreneurial Leaders Network – Cheryl Bachelder – “Dare To Serve”
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Arthur on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: A strong board of directors is essential to the success of any non-profit organization. The board of directors plays a critical role in providing guidance, oversight, and support for the organization’s mission and operations.
There is no cookie-cutter or one-size-fits-all when it comes to Nonprofit Board Governance and Board Service. However, there is a lot we can learn from people who are active on the Boards of high impact and highly effective nonprofit organizations.
Over the past 104 issues, we have devoted a lot of time to this topic. From time to time, we will highlight excerpts from some of these conversations.
Today is the 3rd time we are compiling these excerpts. I will have links to the previous two episodes in the Episode Notes.
Christin McClave has over 20 years of corporate leadership, beginning her career with Johnson & Johnson and serving in senior leadership in her family’s large automotive aftermarket business – Cardone Industries. Christin has served on and continues to serve on several nonprofit and corporate Boards.
I've been in this business a long time and I've worked with probably 300 or 400 boards, over the last 30 years. And if I look at them, I would say a lot of the time they're males.
They might be closer to my age than your age. And now things are changing. So, what are you seeing, or maybe what are you doing to lower the mean age on a board and to maybe bring more gender and ethnic diversity?
[00:01:43] Christin McClave:
So, I think we see a lot of changes in the general demographics, right? As our society and culture are changing. The positive thing is there's so much more diversity coming up through the leadership ranks.
And I think the traditional way that we've, I'll say we, because I've done it myself as well, when we've needed a new board member on a board, I instantly think about who have I worked with before? Who's like me, who thinks like me, who would be easy to plug and play into this board that I'm on? And so that's been our traditional way of pipelining onto boards. Let's find people who we know and who we know could be very quickly successful and contribute value to this board.
I think what we've learned over the last couple years is that doesn't necessarily bring diversity to these boards that we are trying to diversify. And we've seen the pressure coming from the public sector the SEC, not quite regulations, but suggestions that we need a certain percentage of diversity on the public boards.
And there's a lot of pressure in the market for that. And then that has trickled down its way to nonprofits and to the private sector. So, everyone is looking to diversify their boards at this point. And I think, a key piece of the job requirements that we have in the past always assumed on larger boards, I'll say.
And most boards in general, everybody's wanted, okay you need to have a CEO or CFO or a C level executive. But preferably a CEO or CFO who's been in the chair before. And I've had people say that to me as well, that's what they're looking for. And I think we know just from sheer data that a lot of women and diverse candidates in general haven't had those opportunities.
We are definitely developing that pipeline now and being very much more intentional. But I think like through the past few years and now looking at the talent market being as hot as it is and the demand for diverse talent we have, we are at the place we need to take a look at those very narrow criteria that we've said, oh, you have to be a C-level executive to be on a board and to be able to contribute value. And I think, now I've seen a lot more being written, a lot more being talked about, diversity coming onto boards where I'm reading someone's background and I'm like, wow, that is so cool.
Maybe 10 years ago that person wouldn't have been chosen for that very significant board seat. So, I think we've opened up our criteria and have opened up our thought process and how we see people's experiences. We're looking at people's resumes really differently these days.
From an HR perspective in internal, when we're screening candidates we took the requirement of having a college degree off of our requirements, probably, about 10 years ago, which was a little bit ahead of our time, but it just opened up our talent pool and we realized there are a lot of people out there that may not have a bachelor's degree but are way more experienced with their life and work experience that we were not being able to tap into because we had that very strict requirement.
So, I think we're seeing that across the board at all levels, including at the board level.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:05:34] Tommy Thomas: Alvin Sanders, President & CEO of World Impact, a nonprofit that focuses on redemptive poverty and cultural proficiency in the urban community. Alvin and his Board are huge proponents of the Policy Governance Model - an integrated board leadership paradigm created by Dr. John Carver.
I'm asking people these days about bringing younger people onto boards. And philosophically, do you have a position on that? And then I'll ask a follow up.
[00:06:10] Alvin Sanders: Yes, we try to hold it at nine, because we think a smaller board is better for getting things done. And I think in terms of thirds, a third of our board, we want gender diversity, a third of our board, we want age diversity, a third of our board, we want racial diversity.
And then we want half and half, what I would say, marketplace people. These are business folk, and then the other half ministry people. Because if you have all marketplace people, the ministry gets lost. It's been my experience. And if you have all ministry people, the business of running the organization gets lost and it loses knowledge and expertise.
So that's my philosophy of how you have you bring a board together. But you definitely need people, especially since I just read the other day that millennials now are the most dominant generation numbers wise. It's no longer Baby Boomers. It's never been my generation, Gen X. We're the forgotten generation, I think.
Nobody gives a rip about Gen X, but Millennials now are it and you're just being silly if you don't have Millennials on your board.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:23] Tommy Thomas: Caryn Ryan, Managing Director at MissionWell, an organization that provides financial and strategic counsel to nonprofit organizations. Caryn is the former CFO for BP/Amoco and World Vision International. She currently serves on corporate and nonprofit Boards.
I want to ask you one question then I'll close. So, my next to the last question has to do with succession planning and the board. At what point should that begin to occur? And how does the board address that without the CEO thinking “I’m a short-timer”?
[00:08:04] Caryn Ryan: Okay. Yeah, that's great. I'm dealing with that right now at one of the boards that I sit on. And I've just dealt with that last year as well. And it works both ways if it works all, all different ways. So let me just talk about one where the CEO does get the feeling. If you have this conversation that they're a short timer.
I want to just say first of all, that can sometimes go back to the trust issue again, right? When there's a lack of trust between the board and the CEO then, and you bring up the succession of the question of succession planning, the first thing that goes of course into the CEO's mind is, oh, I'm getting fired. I'm a short termer here.
So that has to again, be addressed, the trust issue, before you can have productive conversations around succession planning. But even longer term issues are going to take some time to get resolved. There's something you can always do on the succession plan that's very short term and that every single board must have in place.
And that is you need a succession plan in case of an emergency. If your CEO becomes ill is hit by a bus, or whatever, you need an emergency succession plan that is an interim structure or very well thought through way that you'll manage in the absence of the CEO.
And usually, it's not going to bring out the same negative feeling for the CEO. On the part of the CEO because they understand that, oh yeah, if I'm not there, we need to have some interim structure. And so, they'll begin helping the Board and thinking through, look, okay, if something happens to me, let's make this person on our staff the interim, or let's pull this Board Member out and see if they'll be the interim.
Or they'll start to engage in the ideas for how that could work in interim a structure. And as long as you can get that interim structure put in place and everybody's in agreement that it's workable, that then gives a chance during the interim structure for the Board to go out and begin doing a search to find a replacement candidate.
Regarding succession planning for a Founder – S/he just might not be willing to step aside.
They might have created a whole lack of number twos in the organization who can step in, even in an emergency. It just may not be anybody. So that's a different situation where the board needs to probably, in addition to working on trust, which can be very difficult with the founder.
You might be off the board if you start having those kind of conversations. But what you can do as a board is do your research. How would you do a search? You can get your research done on executive search firms who could step in and help you. You can just keep in mind, and Tommy, you're the one who should be telling your podcast listeners this, but it's a long process to do a search.
You've got to set up a search committee. You got to figure out how you're going to recruit the person. You've got to have an approach. You have to execute it, you have to review the candidates. It's just really time consuming. You at least have to think through all of these, how that's a minimum thing, even if it's a founder situation.
I'd say two things. Number one, for sure, have an interim emergency succession plan, no questions asked. That's an absolute minimum mandate for every board. And number two, if you're on a founder board, you have to do some special extra work along the side with networking, quiet networking, just to figure out the process and figure out how you would do, how would you do that if something did happen to your founder, if your founder's not willing to participate or help with that. Does that make sense?
++++++++++++++
[00:11:33] Tommy Thomas: Rich Stearns, President Emeritus at World Vision US. Prior to joining World Vision, Rich was CEO for multiple organizations in the private sector, thus reporting to their Boards. He cut his teeth on nonprofit Board Governance as President of World Vision US.
When I interviewed you back in 2017 you mentioned that from your perspective, the best thing that the World Vision Board did for you when you came on was you recalled an offsite retreat where y'all got introduced to each other. Could you share a little bit about that with us?
I think we probably have a lot of up and coming CEOs listening and that might be an interesting discussion.
[00:12:14] Rich Stearns: Yeah, I don't know how much that costs. Probably not much, but it was the best money World Vision ever spent. When I came into World Vision the Board and the CEO had what I'd call a turbulent relationship.
He wasn't thrilled about his board and the way they behaved, and the Board wasn't thrilled about him in certain ways. And so, I was coming into kind of a troubled marriage, right? You could say there'd been a divorce, and I'm the new husband coming in. And so, the Board had enough wisdom to say, you know what, we should start off on the right foot here.
Why don't we hire a board consultant to come in and do a two-day retreat with a new CEO to teach the Board and the new CEO, how best they should interact and communicate with one another. So, a friend of yours and mine named Bob Andringa, he's retired now, but he was in the Board consulting business.
He's written at least one book, if not several. He came in and he conducted a Board Governance 101, 102 course for all of us. And gave us tools to use and dealt with different scenarios of here are the dos and don'ts for Board Members. Here are the dos and don'ts for the staff and the CEO. Here is the best way to understand your responsibility as Board Members.
This is what your responsibility is, and this is what your responsibility is not. This is the role you play. This is the role you don't play. And same with a CEO, Rich, your role is this the board's role is to establish policy. I guess the best way to say it is it laid down the ground rules for a healthy relationship.
And I don't think it's an exaggeration to say I had a 20-year honeymoon with my board. Not that there weren't an occasional, marital argument over the years. But it was like a 20-year honeymoon with the board. And I respected them, they respected me. My staff, when I first started, after a year, they said, boy, you've had a one-year honeymoon with this board.
It's amazing. Because they'd seen some of the dysfunction in the prior years. And 20 years later, they were still saying you're still on your honeymoon. And I in terms of my response, what I attribute it to, is what I talked about earlier, Tommy, that the board knew they could trust me.
I would never tell them a lie. I would never hide anything. I was completely transparent. Anything they wanted to talk about at a board meeting, we could talk about. Any numbers they wanted to see, we'd show them. If I had some bad numbers, I'd bring them to the board and say, look, this is not good, and here's what we're going to do. They never felt I was hiding anything. And so that created trust as well.
[00:15:03] Tommy Thomas: One of the guys that you've influenced over the years is Joe Mettimano at Central Union Mission. And when I interviewed Joe there, he talked about a lesson he learned from you about the president's report to the board. He would attribute part of his success to what he learned from you there. Tell us about that.
[00:15:22] Rich Stearns: I started every board meeting with a president's report. So, the Board is gathered, in the case of World Vision they've flown in from all over the country, and here they are at the World Vision board meeting and remember, they're all volunteers, some are pastors, some are business people. They're from all walks of life and so I tried to use the President's Report to basically bring them up to speed on what was going on at World Vision. What were the important issues? What were we doing about the important issues? How are the finances doing? I tried to answer as many questions as they might have in advance.
Because the rest of the board meeting, the finance committee was going to meet and other committees were going to meet. And I tried to use the President's Report to cast a bit of a vision for where we were as an organization, where we're headed, what my outlook was for the coming year or the coming quarter.
And I try to use the Board Meeting to really cast a vision to remind them of the mission of World Vision. Often, I would start with a trip report. I've just gotten back from the Syrian refugee crisis, and I want to tell you what I saw. I would remind them, we're sitting here in a nice boardroom, but people are dying all over the world.
And our job is to intercede for them to help them to rescue those who are perishing as the book of Proverbs says. And so, trying to remind them why they were here, why World Vision was here and then look under the hood at, the financials, the numbers, the revenues, the overhead, and you had to deal with issues like real estate transactions and mundane stuff like that.
I wanted to always to put it in the context of the bigger mission, vision and values of the organization. My President's Report would sometimes go 90 minutes to two hours which is a lot. But usually, the board would say that was the highlight of the meeting because that really brought them up to date on everything.
+++++++++++++++=
[00:17:16] Tommy Thomas: Paul Maurer, President at Montreat College. Paul is a student of Board Governance and identifies as a “governance nerd”. Paul is on his second college presidency and has learned a lot – some through the school of hard knocks about effective Board Governance.
And a lot of people that I talk with, there's a move toward lowering the mean age of the board and increasing diversity. What kind of experience have y'all had at Montreat around those issues?
[00:17:45] Paul Maurer: We're intentionally trying to increase diversity. We've not found that to be an easy pathway, but we are we are committed to it.
And on age I would just gently push back on the median age lowering. I'm very much of the Aristotelian camp that young people have less wisdom. And part of what you want for board members is wisdom. Wisdom comes with experience, and experience comes with age and the hard knocks of life and just the journey of life with gray hair and getting beat up occasionally. And I want younger people on the board, but that's less common. They're actually very hard to get on the board because they're less qualified candidates in my view, and they're uber busy with career and family.
So, the young members, the 30 somethings, I have on my board, I have two of them. They're like up to their eyeballs, four or five kids each, they're CEOs or leaders in their own rights and rising in the ranks. And these people have large portfolios and enormous demands on their time.
Then my 70- and 80-year-olds, and I even have a 91-year-old board member who I recruited at the age of 87. And he said to me, he said, Paul, what if I die? And I said, Bill what if I die? We're all going to die. You've got a lot of gas left in your tank. You've got enormous amount of wisdom.
And you may have others who think that you're too old to be a board member. I don't think that at all. And if a day should come when your health has slipped, your metro capacities have slipped, we'll have that conversation and we'll have it openly and honestly. Honestly the seventies, eighties, and 90-year-old trustees I have are easily among my best trustees. They're phenomenal.
[00:20:04] Tommy Thomas: Let's change over a little bit to the board aspect of being a president. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make between, say, reporting to the CEO as a cabinet member and then as the President reporting to the Board?
[00:20:20] Paul Maurer: Yeah, it's a great question. I'm a bit of a governance nerd. I really think about and study governance. I did that in my doctoral work. I do it as a college president in nonprofit governance. And so, the president needs clarity. What is the role of the board? What is the role of the president? What's the role of the relationship and what's the role of everyone else on campus in relationship to the board? And so, in the world of board governance, there are working boards and there are policy boards.
Startups tend to have working boards, like true startups, like really small organizations. More established organizations. If they haven't transitioned to a policy board, they probably ought to consider doing so. Because you don't really want a board involved in the operations of an organization.
And so, I'm deeply grateful that my board gave me the lead role in board development, meaning recruitment of new board members, training of board, the board policy manual. And we have a great board today, and they really understand that the board should not be involved in operations.
That's the CEO's job but should be sure that they're being fiduciaries, that they're making sure there's a strategic plan that's being carried out their success along the way and that they manage or evaluate. They don't manage, they evaluate the presidents. They hire and fire the president, the CEO.
I do think that my argument would be that it's more important for a President to be a CEO than a President. The President is, as I think of a bit of an old model for college leadership, it's rooted in what I think is not a very useful model of shared governance. I think the CEO is a better model, but you also need a CEO who's sensitive to campus dynamics and the idea that consensus really matters.
And a consensus building CEO I think is the best model, but I think that the CEO also needs to be the CUO - the Chief Urgency Officer. Because things are changing so fast.
Links & Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Two Previous Best of Board Governance Episodes:
2023 – Best of Board Service Part 1
2023 – Best of Board Service Part 2
Episodes Featuring These Excerpts
Christin McClave – Insights into Board Governance
Rich Stearns – President Emeritus World Vision US – An Inauspicious Leadership Journey – Part 2
Alvin Sanders – Board Governance
Caryn Ryan – Board Governance
Paul Maurer – Board Governance
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Lynn Erdman: If you want to work for somebody your entire career, be a Physician's Assistant. And so I thought, okay, that makes me think I'm going to do a nurse. So he was also instrumental and at least helped me think through the process.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:15] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Lynn Erdman. Lynn started her career as a nurse, but it didn't take long for her leadership skills to be recognized. She rose through the ranks of nursing and moved into healthcare administration and ultimately into senior leadership in the nonprofit sector. Lynn holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Nursing from the University of North Carolina Greensboro and a Master's in Nursing from the University of South Carolina. She served as the Vice President of Medical Affairs for the American Cancer Society and the Vice-President of Community Health for Susan G. Komen for The Cure. She was the CEO of the Association of Women's Health Obstetric and Neonatal Nurses. And most recently the Executive Director for Carolina Breasts Friends in Charlotte, an organization that provides education, compassion, and support to people experiencing breast cancer. She's an adjunct faculty member at UNC Charlotte School of Nursing and a member of the consulting faculty at the Duke University School of Nursing. When she retired from her role at Carolina Breast Friends, she returned to her first love of nursing, where she is the nurse for a thriving healthcare nonprofit in Charlotte.
Let's pick up on that conversation now.
So, what are people always surprised to learn about you?
[00:01:41] Lynn Erdman: I think people are surprised that I don't like surprises.
I like to know what's going on, what's going to happen. And surprising me doesn't always work.
[00:01:54] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed a nurse. I guess the third episode of my podcast was Holly Moore. She started out in nursing and got over into, I think, as I remember, she was the first female vice president of a large pharmaceutical company.
She thought that a nursing career was one of the best careers that anybody in senior leadership could have because of the forced decision-making and the methodical decision-making. What are your thoughts on that?
It’s the creativity and the ability to figure out problems that I like the most in nursing. You've got a patient who's struggling, you've got a team of people that can't figure out what to do with the patient, and yet together you come up with an idea and it solves the problem.
[00:02:26] Lynn Erdman: I certainly think there's some decision-making in there, but I think it’s the creativity and the ability to figure out problems that I like the most in nursing.
You’ve got a problem in front of you. You've got a patient who's struggling, you've got a team of people that can't figure out what to do with the patient, and yet you can come up with an idea and it solves the problem. So the ability to work with lots of different people and to have the ability to question things and look for a different solution has always been something I liked about nursing.
[00:03:08] Tommy Thomas: So, think back to your first management job when you actually had people reporting to you. What are your memories?
[00:03:16] Lynn Erdman: My memories are that I didn't do a very good job. I wasn't sure what a leader was supposed to do. I thought if I just set the direction and said, this is what we're going to do for this particular project, that people would follow.
That doesn't really work. So, I had to sit down and think and say, all right that didn't work. What do I need to do? And realized pretty quickly, that the more buy-in and input I get from the team members, the better off. Whatever project it is that we're working on, the outcome is going to be a lot better if I've got some buy-in and some input. And people at least know what they're supposed to do and they feel like they are making a difference there.
[00:04:01] Tommy Thomas: Successful people are often asked, what makes you so successful? I like to frame the question this way. What's a factor that's helped you succeed that most people on the outside wouldn't realize?
One of the things that has helped me most in my career is learning from my mistakes. Making a mistake, owning the mistake, learning from the mistake.
[00:04:12] Lynn Erdman: Oh, my goodness. I think lots of things have helped me succeed, but probably making mistakes has been one of the things that's helped me succeed the most. I've made lots of mistakes in my career where I've looked at something and thought this was the path to go down and found out that it wasn't. But I think owning up to the mistake and then saying, okay, what did I learn from that?
And asking how could I do that differently in the future has been something that has helped my career and not being afraid to make a mistake and to take a risk. That's one of the things that I think has made me successful. I'm willing to try something.
[00:04:53] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we often learn more by our mistakes or our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to make a mistake or fail?
[00:05:06] Lynn Erdman: I think that it's the fear of being judged. Somebody is going to look and say I'm putting you in that category or wow, I wouldn't have done that. And it's how it reflects.
[00:05:21] Tommy Thomas: You being from the south, you would understand the expression having your medal tested. Take us to a time in your career when your medal was tested and how did you come out of it?
[00:05:33] Lynn Erdman: I can remember an early time in my career. I had just I'd finished graduate school about a year before that, had worked on a research project that I was proud of, had worked with three other people on the project, and really wanted to get that published.
And so, I worked with them. Nobody wanted to do it. They were finished with graduate school. They were moving on. And so, I wrote up the paper, sent it to all of them, and they said, we’re not interested. Just leave our names off. We're not interested. Anyway, to make a long story short, the journal that I turned it into accepted the article.
It was an international journal, regarded. I sent them a letter saying, we’ve been accepted, and they said, oh, then we want our names on it and we want them in alphabetical order which meant my name moved down the list. I can remember being so devastated thinking all right, am I even going to do this?
Am I going to publish this article just, you know, out of spite or anger or whatever else? The article was published. It was published in alphabetical order, but from there, I learned not only if you communicate, it doesn't always solve the problem. You've got to just decide, I can accept things certain ways and move on.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:02] Tommy Thomas: Richard Paul Evans, a novelist that I read a lot, says sometimes the greatest hope in our lives is just a second chance to do what we should have done right in the first place. What's going on in your mind and your heart when you think about giving a staff member a second chance?
[00:07:20] Lynn Erdman: Always looking at where are they in the workforce.
How long have they been working with me? That's not a determining factor, but what are they contributing to what we're doing and to the mission here? And what is the reason that they've made a mistake? Is it something that they regret? Are they remorseful at all? Those types of things. I'm looking for all of that.
But I always want somebody to have a second chance if they're interested in having a second chance. And I found that there are times when the employee just does not want a second chance. They're so embarrassed by whatever the mistake was that they would rather leave the organization than stay and work and deal with kind of recovering from the episode.
[00:08:18] Tommy Thomas: So many leaders have been in leadership roles where the experience was very different than they expected. Has this happened to you? And if so, what'd you learn?
[00:08:30] Lynn Erdman: Oh yes. I can remember accepting a position. I was working in Chicago at that point in time and I started on my first day, I got there, I'd read the job description, and I'd done interviews with a number of people who had described the position thoroughly.
It was a totally different role than I had expected and a totally different set of responsibilities. And so, I can remember talking to the person who had hired me and said this is not what we discussed, and I want to make sure I can do it. Because I'm happy to have the job, I'm excited to have the job, but if I can't perform at the level, I want to be able to perform to meet all these goals, then I want to relook.
We ended up working things out, it all worked fine. But yes, I was surprised that these additional ten things were on the list, and they were more important than what we talked about in the interview.
[00:09:33] Tommy Thomas: So, I guess maybe that taught you a little bit about when you're hiring people to make sure that everything is spelled out?
[00:09:39] Lynn Erdman: Yes, it's not fair to people if they don't know what they're coming in and being responsible for.
[00:09:48] Tommy Thomas: You've progressed up through nursing through all kinds of senior positions. How do you decide what a good leadership role looks like for you?
[00:09:58] Lynn Erdman: I've actually turned down two CEO roles during my career and those were hard choices in my life to try to decide. I had gotten all the way through the interview process, and they were ready to offer me the position and I sat down reading through everything again. And I thought I don't think I can do exactly what they want me to do and be successful in the way.
That I want to be successful here. And so, I think I would be better served to look at a different avenue, look at a different type of position. It was a particular area of specialty that I had great knowledge in, but I had not had a lot of experience in. So, it's a wonderful opportunity, but I decided on that.
I can remember the board being very disappointed at that type of thing, but I know it was the right decision to move on. But those are the things I don't always see people have the ability to make that type of decision. They'll go in and they'll take something, and they'll just be there and not be able to deliver on the job and that's never a good thing.
[00:11:22] Tommy Thomas: At what point in your career did you begin to feel comfortable in your leadership skin?
[00:11:28] Lynn Erdman: I'm not sure that I ever got completely comfortable. I'm always learning. I love to read articles on leadership or look at different things and obviously, I'd love to have a mento. I've been a mentor to a lot of people, but I always have someone that I think I can learn from and look at how they manage certain things and learn from them.
I think I can always learn. I'm certainly comfortable in the leadership role now. But again, I think it's something you can always get better.
[00:12:07] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about your first mentor?
[00:12:12] Lynn Erdman: My first mentor was the person who hired me at Presbyterian Hospital.
He was the CEO there. And I remember the reason he was part of the interview process is because I was their first clinical nurse specialist that they had ever hired at this large hospital. And so, he wanted to be in on the process because he said, I don't even know what a clinical nurse specialist does.
If I'm going to have one of these on my team, with 450 plus employees, then I want to know what she's going to do. So that was very interesting. I developed a relationship with him and he was one that taught me a variety of things about how to care for people.
He was an amazing leader at that hospital and I just watched him be respectful and caring of any and everybody that he came in contact with and that made a huge impression on me. And he used to always say, I live by the golden rule. And I think he really did. You do unto others like you would have them do to you.
[00:13:23] Tommy Thomas: So, was that more of an informal process, or did y'all set up a weekly tutorial?
[00:13:28] Lynn Erdman: We met a lot. Yeah. He ended up moving me from the oncology clinical nurse specialist after I'd done that position for several years and in that position, I was consulting with physicians. So, if there was a person in the hospital who was having an issue or had just been diagnosed with cancer, then I was the one called in to say, would you please come talk to this patient and family?
I was the intermediary and the liaison between the physician, the patient, and the family. But after I'd done that several years the president of the hospital called me down and he said, I want to form a cancer center. I really want to build a cancer center here. And he ended up putting me in charge of the cancer center.
So, I was the founding director of the cancer center at this large hospital. And that's when I developed a lot of my leadership skills and responsibility.
[00:14:23] Tommy Thomas: You've had several CEO slots in different kinds of organizations. Is it fair to ask you what's been your favorite senior leadership position?
[00:14:36] Lynn Erdman: I think my most favorite was the director of the cancer center at this large hospital. I did that for a number of years, built it from the ground up, hired the physicians, hired the researchers, hired the social workers, the chaplains, opened the first inpatient hospice unit in the state, opened a pain management or palliative care unit, just a number of different things.
And so, the learning and the experience in that time was overwhelmingly rewarding, and all the patients that I worked with during that time. So yes, I would label that as the top one.
[00:15:16] Tommy Thomas: Was that one of your early P&L responsibilities where you had a budget to manage?
[00:15:22] Lynn Erdman: Oh, I had a huge budget to manage.
Yes, and that was great learning. Lots of work with the CFO and the whole finance team, and yes, adding lots of different experiences and knowledge to the nursing background, essentially worked all the way through an MBA course without having to sit in the classroom, but getting it the other way.
Spent time at Wharton during that time and went through the huge management course for hospital administrators, those types of things.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:16:00] Tommy Thomas: Maybe not in your current job, but in maybe one of your previous CEO jobs, if I had to come along and you let me be in a staff meeting and we had dismissed you and I got a chance to be with your direct reports, what do you think they would have said would have been the most trying part of working with you?
[00:16:18] Lynn Erdman: That I would listen to all aspects of a situation and then I would make a decision, instead of making one as a gut reaction or a knee-jerk reaction. This is on fire. Make a decision. Instead, I want to know if this is on fire, what else, what started the fire, what happened, what's around it, what's going to impact it.
And then I'll make the decision as to what we need to do. And if so, fire might be a little bit exaggerated because obviously, you go put the fire out. But I would want to know all the aspects before making a decision. I think that was frustrating to people. They wanted me to just instantly decide what I wanted to do.
[00:17:05] Tommy Thomas: Let's flip that. What would they have said was the most rewarding part of being on your team?
[00:17:11] Lynn Erdman: Oh, that I had lots of empathy and understanding. I always knew what was going on in their personal lives for what they would share. And was extremely concerned about whether they took time off for themselves.
Had they taken their vacation? If they were sick, how were they? I'm texting them to see how they are. Are the children okay? Those types of things. I think the compassionate understanding when things go wrong in life, that you can still roll with it.
[00:17:42] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned earlier that you're a risk taker.
Frederick Wilcox said that progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken and how did it come out?
[00:17:56] Lynn Erdman: The biggest risk I have ever taken was to start a completely new operation when I was the CEO of a large national nursing organization in Washington, D.C. and decided that I had heard comments from the board, we had talked through things and decided that we needed a new part of our organization to be able to meet the needs of a wide variety of nurses that were beginning to have a special interest in an area that we were covering. We started that and we needed to back it up and actually regroup several times within the project itself.
It was a huge risk, not only because of the money that was going to cost to get it started, but was the revenue or the outcome going to be where we wanted? And were we going to be able to make a difference for the people that we were creating all this for, which ultimately were the patients. And it turned out that it was fine, but it was a very rocky road there for a period of time.
Ended up pulling in people from all over the country into several talk sessions, think tanks, and those types of things to make the process move forward.
[00:19:26] Tommy Thomas: What's been your greatest failure and what did you learn from it?
[00:19:32] Lynn Erdman: My biggest failure, let's see I've had several where I had to back the truck up. I would say my biggest failure was choosing not to communicate with someone who I knew was very upset with the decision that I had made and tried to reach out to them. They didn't respond. And so, I just said I'm just going to put this to rest.
And it turned out that we should have had a conversation. I should have pushed, and we should have talked all of that through, which happened later, but all of the in-between should not have happened.
[00:20:15] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed a guy recently, and he said he was writing a book on the burdens of leadership. The burdens of leadership that only the president or the CEO bear. If you were writing such a book, what would you cover?
[00:20:29] Lynn Erdman: Oh, my goodness. Things that you see that you know need attention, but you're not sure how to deal with them. People that bring you problems and just dump them in your lap because you are at the top of the heap and expect you to solve them, but don't expect to have any part in solving them.
In other words, they don't come with a solution, they come with a problem. To me, that's one of the hardest roles within CEO. But the other biggest burden is not having anyone to talk with. It's a very lonely role at the top. Because you can't just say I'm going to talk to the board chair. Because it might be something that you actually shouldn't be sharing with the board chair.
You need to figure out how all this is going to work before you do that. And so not having that person within the organization, I think, is one of the hardest. It's a big burden. So, you have to find your resources outside of the organization that you can trust and share with.
[00:21:40] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior that you've seen derail leaders’ careers?
[00:21:46] Lynn Erdman: Lying, just being dishonest. When it happens the integrity of everything is destroyed. And I've certainly seen that with people, lack of communication, trying to think that I can just move forward. It's my decision. Or taking credit for others' work. When that happens, that is, these people are sitting in your audience and you are taking credit for something and you didn't do that work, they did.
But you're not calling them out and saying, I'm really thrilled that this team came up with all these great ideas.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:22:27] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to a little something lighter maybe. If you were a judge on a nonprofit Shark Tank, and some of these young entrepreneurs were coming to your panel of wealthy investors with these ideas. What have you got to know before you open your pocketbook?
[00:22:47] Lynn Erdman: I want to know what their mission is. I want to know what they've invested in this nonprofit. And I want to know who their other sponsors are. And if they don't get the money from Shark Tank or whoever is giving it, what's plan B?
How are they going to move forward? And once, even if they get this money, what's the sustainability afterward? When this runs out, how are they going to keep the project going?
[00:23:24] Tommy Thomas: In the same vein, if you were building a dashboard to look at the health of nonprofits, what would your dashboard monitor?
[00:23:32] Lynn Erdman: Oh, I think it would monitor volunteers. How many do they have? Who's following their organization? Social media, how much money do they have coming in? If I'm looking at a dashboard and how many people are reaching out for their services, I always want to know. It could sound great. But if nobody is calling and needing their services, but they are continuing to raise the money, then there's a big red flag and a question about how much is this really needed.
And then volunteers and staff as well. Are they dedicated to the mission? Have they got the right people in the right seats? Those types of things.
[00:24:15] Tommy Thomas: I'd like you to respond to a few quotes before I go over into board service. I came across this quote this week. I attributed it to Mark Twain but who knows who originally said it.
The only person who likes change is a baby with a wet diaper.
[00:24:28] Lynn Erdman: True.
[00:24:30] Tommy Thomas: Obviously you've been through a lot of change in health care over the years. What have you learned about change and how to get through it?
Change is constant. If we are going to keep up and be innovative, we must change.
[00:24:39] Lynn Erdman: Change is constant. We used to call the American Cancer Society when I worked there, “always changing something”.
That's what it stood for ACS, always changing something, which was indeed true. But when I look back, I think part of the reason was things change in the world and if we were going to keep up and be innovative then we best be doing the same thing as well. I think we don't like change because we get comfortable with a particular way of doing things.
And then all of a sudden when that's gone or doesn't look the same, then wait, how am I going to find that? I think we all struggle with change, although it makes the world go round, it's good for us.
[00:25:24] Tommy Thomas: You won't rise to the occasion; you will sink to your level of preparedness.
[00:25:31] Lynn Erdman: Yeah. That's true. That often happens. You've got to rise to the occasion many times. If you just stay with what you're prepared for, you will make absolutely no progress. So you've got to do something. I can remember when I was asked when I was at Northeast Medical Center and I was Vice President of Women's and Cancer Services and the President of the hospital called me one day and he said, I've got a project for you.
And I thought all right, this would be something in cancer or women's services. Let's talk. And he looked at me over his desk and he said, I want you to change the culture in this hospital. And I thought, excuse me? This was a huge medical center, part of the Atrium system. And I looked at him.
And I thought I know this isn't in my job description. I didn't say that out loud, but I thought it. And he said, I know you can do it and I'm putting you in charge. You can pick your team, but I want to turn around patient satisfaction and culture in this entire facility. I left his office thinking I have an open book, a completely open drawing table. And I don't know where to go. I remember going back to my office thinking, all right, he believes in me. I'm sure I can do it. And I ended up pulling together a committee. A pretty big committee, because I wanted people from all over the hospital. And then a team, an executive team, that was going to do the work.
We did training at Disney, and went through their whole program. Anyway, it was just fascinating. But I can remember sitting back across from this president in his office saying, you will do the training with the employees. Because if we're making this change, you have to be part of it. Because if you're not part of it, none of the rest of the employees think it's important to them or feel that they're going to need to do this.
He went to both trainings and did the trainings as well in the hospital for all the employees. It was an incredible project. I worked on it for more than two years in addition to doing the job that I had which was to be over the cancer center and all the women's services in the hospital. When I think back that was one of the most rewarding things too that I have ever done in my career because not only did I watch myself grow in that process, but I also realized that somebody saw something in me that I did not see. And I didn't just turn my back and say I just can't do that. I went with it and it happened and the scores changed dramatically. We were written up all over the country for the incredible change that it made in patient satisfaction scores.
We had Press Ganey coming to visit our hospital to find out what had been done. And to this day, I still have lunch with the four people that were part of that team. And none of us live in this area. We all come back in together and we get together at least six times a year. So, it's amazing sometimes what people see that you don't see.
[00:29:07] Tommy Thomas: President Eisenhower said, I guess when he was a General, in preparing for battle, I've always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.
[00:29:18] Lynn Erdman: How true. Yes, the plans. Many times I throw the plans out the window because I've written them down. I've thought, okay, this is exactly what we need to do.
And then you start working and it's not working. So you throw those out, you pull the team together, you get the best ideas and you move forward.
[00:29:42] Tommy Thomas: From one of President Eisenhower's peers, General George Patton, “Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity”.
[00:29:55] Lynn Erdman: This is true. I can remember when we needed to redo all of the programming. We just didn't have people attending programming for women with breast cancer and we had a plan, we had put things together, and it just wasn't working. And so we sat down and said, all right, here are all the different options, go be creative and come back with a solution.
And wow, it looked so much better and so different than what we had ever started with. And that was when we had plans and threw them out the window and recreated and had something that people were flocking to. So yes I definitely agree.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] David Chadwick: Probably the first question you'd hear from me is tell me the time you were broken.
Tell me the time you failed and how did that influence your life and how did you respond to that? That's the most important quality I look for in a future employee. How have you failed? How have you been broken and how did the Lord teach you through that? Humility is the most important earmark I look for in someone's life. And if they've not gone through a tough time, if they've not had rejection, if they've not experienced failure, they probably come in with some degree of arrogance, and that will be seen at some point.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:40] Tommy Thomas: This week, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with David Chadwick – Lead Pastor of Moments of Hope Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. If you missed last week's conversation, David shared in-depth the life and leadership lessons he learned from playing basketball for the legendary Coach Dean Smith at UNC. This week, we're shifting the conversation to the 44 years that David has served as pastor in the local church. He's very transparent about the crucible for leadership training that the local church provides.
[00:01:11] Tommy Thomas: Let’s change gears a little bit. And obviously, after you played ball in Europe, you came back and finally got into the ministry. I guess you were doing the Jonah thing and it finally got into the ministry. What do you remember about your first management job when you actually had people reporting to you?
[00:01:26] David Chadwick: I came back from Europe in 1974. I played three years in the professional leagues there and then two years at the University of Florida and got a graduate degree in counseling. In my undergraduate degree, a broadcasting degree, I learned how to talk, and in my graduate degree, I learned how to listen. So, I was prepared to go to seminary and then got some great theological training.
Seminary does as good a job as it can do to prepare you for ministry, but it doesn't give you great courses on how to manage difficult people and how to handle a staff and all of that. Tommy, I came to a church here in Charlotte in 1980. It was a rather small church, and it had a couple of people on staff. I just tried to commit myself to leading them as I saw Coach Smith lead his staff and my dad as well. And that's just my highest priority - to love people, to care for people, to help them succeed, listen to them, get their input, and try to advance the church as best I can. My first management job was at that church for those first few years, just trying to manage folks as best I knew how, love my neighbor, and I made some mistakes along the way, but also had some successes too.
[00:02:39] Tommy Thomas: So successful people are often asked what makes you so successful? I like to reframe the question and say, what's a factor that has helped you succeed that most people on the outside wouldn't recognize or realize?
[00:02:54] David Chadwick: I don't know if I'm successful or not. All of that's measured by the Lord and I hope I am in His eyes. But I think, Tommy, that most success is not outward, it's done in privacy. And I would say whatever success I've had in being able to grow a church and see it, be able to minister in a community where no one sees what you do behind the scenes.
The phone calls made the prayers that were offered. The love that's extended to different people going through different crises, the hospital visitations, the counseling sessions, nobody sees that. Yet I would argue that those were the real stones used by the Lord to build a strong church.
Everything that's successful in life comes through relationships. And in those behind-the-scenes, unseen relationship-building and love of other people, that's where true success happens. And then it's just seen on the outside. And again, in ministry, that’s where true success really is built, in the relationships you've given to people.
[00:04:08] Tommy Thomas: Richard Paul Evans, the bestselling novelist, said that sometimes the greatest hope in our lives is just a second chance to do what we should have done right in the first place. What's going on in your heart and in your decision-making process when you think about giving an employee a second chance?
I think about all the second chances my Lord has given me. His grace and mercy have been extended to me regularly!
[00:04:29] David Chadwick: First of all, I think about all the second chances my Lord has given me. And His grace and mercy have been extended to me regularly. Mercy's not receiving what we do deserve, and grace is receiving what we don't deserve. And through Jesus, I've not received what I do deserve, and that's Hell.
And Jesus died on the cross to give me the gift of eternal life, not by anything I've done, but by His mercy, but also grace. You just think upon the gifts, upon gifts God has given me that I don't deserve, but He has chosen to. When I look at that which has been given to me, the forgiveness of my billion-dollar debt I could have never repaid, why can't I do that same for other people who have failed as well? Giving them the second chance that the Lord's given me repeatedly throughout my life and career.
There have been several people I know who have messed up and I've worked with them and tried to give them a second chance. Realizing that in that second chance, you've got to make sure that you're not putting them in a position where they could hurt somebody else by the decision they made in the first place.
That's not wise at all. But if you really can give them that second chance, you try to because you know how many second chances the Lord has given you.
[00:05:39] Tommy Thomas: I'm in the South and I guess we can say that Charlotte is in the South. We have an expression that says you tested your metal. Can you think of a time in your life when you had your metal tested and how did you come out of it?
[00:05:57] David Chadwick: Which one do you want to talk about? I went through a bit of a crisis some four years ago when the church I had pastored for 39 years decided they wanted to go in a different direction, and they felt like I, after 39 years, was too old to lead the church and that I didn't have the ability to relate to younger people anymore, which I didn't understand because the church was still growing and it was still reaching a lot of people and there were baptisms taking place.
But for whatever reason, the leadership of the church decided that my time had ended. And it really hurt, Tommy, because I had given so much of my life to the church, as had my wife. Again, it didn't look to me on the outside like it was not successful, but I had a certain number of staff and elders who thought it was my time to go.
You really didn't have any control over that. And so, I had to leave and my heart was really hurt over that. I think for the first time I really understood what someone going through a divorce feels like because, after 39 years, you have maybe a spouse say to you, I don't love you anymore.
Plus, I want all the assets and get out of here. And that's pretty much what happened. I had a choice. Either to quit, resign, to not do ministry anymore, or I still felt a call to ministry. And that was the real question. Was God still calling me to minister in the local church? At the age of 69, I started a new church.
Which is quite a challenge for a 69-year-old. It's the hardest work in ministry. No question about it. I gathered around me a group of people who were my friends and felt like my ministry years weren't over with, so we started from scratch, Tommy, from nothing. Over the last few years, we've seen a growing, thriving, serving, giving body of Christ form here in the city as well.
And I've had to start all over, but in a real way, it's been some of the richest years in my life. I guess I've had to live by that whole idea of, never giving up. When you get that call from God, and you know it's what you're supposed to do, keep on keeping on, persevere, and watch the Lord work.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:08:13] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to some of the more mundane aspects of ministry and leadership, and that would be hiring and firing. When you're hiring somebody on your staff, what do the qualities look like? And if I were to come tomorrow and apply for a job, what would the interview process look like?
Probably the first question you'd hear from me is tell me the time you were broken. Tell me the time you failed and how did that influence your life and how did you respond to that?
[00:08:29] David Chadwick: Probably the first question you'd hear from me is tell me the time you were broken.
Tell me the time you failed and how did that influence your life and how did you respond to that? The most important quality I look for in a future employee is, how have you failed? How have you been broken and how did the Lord teach you through that? Humility is the most important earmark I look for in someone's life. And if they've not gone through a tough time, if they've not had rejection, if they've not experienced failure, they probably come in with some degree of arrogance, and that will be seen at some point. Tommy, that's the first question I go to, and it's probably the last question I ask as well.
Humility is the most important earmark I look for in someone's life. If they've not gone through a tough time, if they've not had rejection, if they've not experienced failure, they probably come in with some degree of arrogance.
[00:09:17] Tommy Thomas: On the flip side of that, you've probably had to terminate people over the years. What have you found is the best way to let somebody go?
[00:09:24] David Chadwick: If you find a good way to let somebody go, please tell me, I would love to know that, but in the dismissals I've had to oversee during the years, the very best thing you can do is to appreciate the work they have done and then give them an explanation clearly for why you're having to let them go. Don't let the question mark linger in their minds or they'll always wonder. And our minds, because of our broken flesh, run to the negative so quickly. And then because of that, we will live under the cloud of I'm a bad person. I'm a failure. I'm not worth anything. So let them know why. And then if you can, in any other way, help them find something else.
And then I've discovered that most all of those people I've had to let go, five years later, they'll call back and say you know what, at the time it was painful, I was even angry at you, but that turned out to be the best thing that ever happened in my life.
[00:10:32] Tommy Thomas: If I were to come to one of your staff meetings next week, and I had a chance to meet with your leadership team and then we excused you and I asked them two questions.
One, what would be the most exciting thing about working for David? What kind of response would I get? And then the flip side of that, what's the most difficult aspect of working for David Chadwick?
[00:10:55] David Chadwick: I think they would probably say the most exciting thing about working for me is that there's always vision.
There's always something out there we're striving for, and that vision keeps division from happening, and it keeps the people fresh and moving forward. I think they would say the most frustrating thing working for David is that there's always a fresh vision. And he's always got a new mountain that he wants to try to conquer, and he doesn't get satisfied with the way things are. So probably my greatest strength is my greatest weakness in a way.
[00:11:40] Tommy Thomas: What was the most significant leadership or management thing that you learned from COVID that you're going to take forward in ministry?
[00:11:47] David Chadwick: Don't necessarily believe the narrative. When people are afraid, they'll give up control, and giving up control is dangerous, and seldom do people who have power, who get more power, give that power back.
I would say that. So be careful when the crisis hits, that you don't make decisions out of fear, that you make decisions out of real knowledge, and also courage. I think the second thing I would say is that isolating is dangerous. I would say the church is essential.
How crazy that the government would shut down, for example, the church, but keep ABC stores open because they consider them essential. The church is essential.
We're not to forsake the gathering together of believers. We need each other, and when we don't come together and don't have fellowship, we see what happens, and that is the rapid increase of suicide, depression, discouragement, learning capabilities, being retarded, all of those things. We need each other. We need to come together.
[00:13:04] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox said that progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken, and how did you come out of it?
[00:13:17] David Chadwick: I would allude back to four years ago when I took the risk at my age and stage of life to plant a church. What came out of it is a very successful, vibrant church with people who love Jesus deeply like I've never seen before.
So, I'm so glad I took that risk. It would have been easier to take their severance package and all the money they offered me and just run. I turned down that severance package. I didn't think it was right for me to take their money and then go plant a church. I think I didn't take the money because I didn't think I agreed with their narrative.
So, I thought by taking the money, I would concur with their narrative. I didn't think that was wise. So that would be the first. The second one would be back in 1986, we moved from a very small church on a small piece of property and purchased 26 acres in a larger place in Charlotte. And the cost was 5 million.
And we only had, at that point, about seven or 800 members. It was a huge leap of faith and we took it not knowing what was going to happen, but Tommy, it was so cool at every moment. And we had to incur some debt at that point to be able to pay for it all. But at every moment we needed something in order to advance forward, to have that property given to us.
There'd be a check that would come in the mail or somebody would step forward or something supernatural would happen And we were able to secure that property and I look back and go it was just a miracle of the Lord that we did that but I don't think we could have ever experienced those miracles had we not stepped forward off the plank, if you will, and risked everything.
[00:14:54] Tommy Thomas: My friend, Barry Corey, the President of Biola University told me last week he's writing a book on the burdens of leadership, the burdens of leadership that the presidents and CEOs uniquely bear.
If you were writing such a book, what topics might you cover?
[00:15:10] David Chadwick: Probably first of all, carrying the burdens of your staff people, because people with whom you work, if you really commit yourself to serve people as a servant leader, to help them become all they're supposed to become, and not use people for your own personal benefit, then that means you're entering into the Galatians 6 area of carrying their burdens.
And, at that point, you really do become a servant to them and what they feel you feel. And everybody, Tommy, everybody's going through difficult times, but especially people on your staff. When you carry their burdens, it makes your life more burdensome. And yet, that's the very essence of servant leadership.
That means you've got to know them. You've got to talk to them. So, every week we have a staff meeting. A time when people can just share and they can share their lives, what they're going through. So, all of us carry each other's burdens, but I know that I as the leader must do so even above the other staff members.
[00:16:11] Tommy Thomas: Speaking of your staff, any particular team-building exercises or processes that you found that helped bring a team together?
A church staff should have fun together. Take a day every quarter and go bowling or go for a nature retreat. Whatever it might be – have fun together.
[00:16:23] David Chadwick: One thing is just go have some fun together. Take a day every quarter, for example, and go bowling, or go for a retreat in nature with them, or whatever it might be, just have some fun together.
The other thing is, that we've developed four core areas that we think are so important for our body, the church, to know, and particularly our staff needs to understand and model it. And that's in the areas of scripture, theology outreach, and wholeness of life. That means body, soul, and spirit all together.
We regularly offer courses and teachings in these four areas so that staff can grow in these areas together and apart. And we've just learned that they have fun together and they also grow in those four areas together. It unites us better as well.
[00:17:16] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous trait that you've observed that derails a leader’s career?
[00:17:20] David Chadwick: Selfish ambition. Period. James 3:13 says that where there's selfish ambition, there's every evil thing. I just think it opens the door for every other demonic force in the universe to come in and attack the leader and his or her organization or enterprise. And personal ambition is that the organization and its successes are all about me and that I'm the focal point of everything. And when you have that perspective, you are surely setting yourself up for a fall. Your pride does truly come before the fall.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:18:06] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned when I asked you about what was this, what would your staff say? You said it was a double-edged sword. You always had a new idea. And that involves change.
Charles Darwin said it's not the strongest or the most intelligent who survive, but those who can best manage change. So how do you work with yourself to embrace this notion that everything is always changing?
[00:18:29] David Chadwick: Who is it that said the only people who like change are babies with wet diapers?
I think there's some truth to that. I think you first have to realize and accept that this world is changing rapidly. And that, Tommy, you and I are about the same age, the world we were brought up in is not the world we're living in today and you'd better try to understand it and grow as best you can or you're going to be left behind.
And so the leader has to continually help those on the staff to understand that change as well. And it's just, almost weekly you talk about that change and weekly you acknowledge that change. And I think for those of us in the kingdom of God, we recognize that if we don't change, we're not going to reach people today.
The most important aspect of ministry is still someone's eternal soul. And so we think about how we can creatively reach people for Christ, and that's going to involve using the different mechanisms that are out there to do so and that's going to mean changing constantly the way that we do it.
You make your mission what's most important and then the mission always is open to new ways for that mission to be accomplished. When people buy the mission, they then are open to changes that will allow the mission to occur.
[00:19:47] Tommy Thomas: On that same line, maybe, give us two or three innovations that you and your staff have developed over the years that worked?
[00:19:57] David Chadwick: One of them would be in our church right now. In forming a new church you don't have a big building with all the amenities that you have when you have been in a ministry like I was in 39 years. We had six different locations with six buildings that were all debt-free. That didn't happen overnight.
That happened over a long period of time of building up those resources and building them. Now we're in a building where we don't have any capacity for caring for children beyond the age of five. Where before you had this big church where you could have the children in their areas doing their thing, the parents in the worship time.
We just finally said, you know what, if we want children to know the Lord, they need to be in worship with their parents. We've developed a worship service that is holistic and allows children from the age of six upward with adults and their parents to participate and be a part of it. And it's been really interesting to see parents slowly but surely say, I don't need my kids in some kind of nursery program where they're babysat so I can listen to a message. I want them here. And they're hearing more than I realized. And they're using that worship time as a way to springboard into spiritual discussions with their children. We don't have the space. We just don't have the rooms.
We used it to adapt to a family worship service that's been really powerful and meaningful for hundreds of people.
[00:21:33] Tommy Thomas: Somebody comes to you this week and they want to talk about going into the ministry. What is some basic counsel you're giving?
Has God called you into the ministry? Can you imagine yourself doing anything else but this?
[00:21:43] David Chadwick: I think the first question that they've got to answer is, has God called you to do this? And then they go I think so. And then the next question is, can you imagine yourself doing anything else but this?
And if they answer yes, I tell them to go do it because ministry is so hard and so difficult that there are going to be days when you just don't know why in the world you're doing this. Where you go to then, when you have those feelings, is that sense of call. You go back to, for me, 1976.
When I knew I'd run away from the Lord long enough and the Lord backed me into the corner. And Tommy, I hope it's not too spooky for all of your listeners, but I heard a voice. And that voice spoke to my heart and said, don't you know, David, I have formed you from the foundations of the Earth to preach My gospel throughout the world and the local church.
And Tommy, when I heard that, I went to my knees and wept. Then I called my mom and dad and told them what happened. And then a month later, I entered seminary. And so on those dark days, when I wonder, what in the world are You doing, Lord? Why did I do this? This is so painful. This is so difficult. I remember that July moment in 1976 in that Gainesville apartment when I know that I know that I know that I know God called me into ministry.
And I knew at that moment there was nothing else I was called to do. And so I would ask a person, are you called? Is there anything else you can imagine yourself doing? If so, go do it. And then if you're still at that point feeling like God's called you into ministry, come back and let's talk. God probably has then called you into ministry.
That would be my prelude to understanding a true call.
[00:23:33] Tommy Thomas: My former pastor and I guess the guy that mentored me a lot was Frank Barker at the Broadwood Church in Birmingham. And Frank had a saying, he said, you don't go into ministry, you grow into ministry. Your thoughts there?
[00:23:46] David Chadwick: I think first of all, there has to be the call. And if that call is certain, the longer you're in that call, the more you just know that God truly did call you into ministry and you become wiser simply by experience and going through the years of ministry.
And I think Frank's absolutely right. You do grow into ministry and that calling does become more real. And now after 44 years in ministry, I can say from the bottom of my heart, I not only know that I was called, but I have also grown into that calling in a real way.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:24:24] Tommy Thomas: I want to touch briefly on board service, and of course in the context of a church, it would be the elders or the deacons. What have you learned over the years about putting together that leadership team, and board, and reporting to and working with?
[00:24:42] David Chadwick: It could be born out of some of my experiences a few years ago where I thought the board was too large, and I really didn't know a good number of the board members personally. We had six campuses; it was a church that had a weekly attendance of six plus thousand or so.
And I was convinced by other people that I needed to have representatives from all the campuses on that board. And I thought, okay, that makes sense since it's such a large church influencing such a large area. But when those folks came on board, I didn't really know them. And I hadn't spent time with them.
And they didn't know my heart. They didn't know who I was. They didn't know my family or anything like that. Many of those board members had only been on the board a couple of months, and they made decisions regarding my life that I don't think they really understood. So from that, Tommy, I’ve taken two truths and whether they're right or not, I’m not sure, but I'm operating by them today. First of all, I need to know my board and the people on the board need to be friends.
They need to know my heart. They need to trust me, and I need to be able to trust them. If they need to agree with decisions for the direction of the church, they need to know who I am, know my heart, know that it's mostly pure that I'm trying to serve the Lord. And then the second thing I learned is that the former board was 12 people or so. That's too many people.
We have a board now of five people. And it's a board that operates quickly, and succinctly, and can make decisions that are good for the church. And we just don't get bogged down in long-term discussions with other people's agendas. We can operate swiftly and quickly for the sake of the kingdom.
Our hearts are unified. We really do experience love and unity together. So, for me, that's worked really well. I know my board well. It's a smaller board and it allows us to make decisions well. And these are men I trust and know and love and really care for me as well.
[00:26:46] Tommy Thomas: Anything I hadn't asked you that you thought I would that you want to share?
If you don't come apart, you'll come apart.
If you're burning the candle at both ends, you're not as bright as you think you are.
[00:26:55] David Chadwick: I think I would just say from my experience vision is everything. Without a vision, people perish. And I would just encourage all leaders out there to have time alone, to take time to think. If you don't come apart, you'll come apart. If you're burning the candle at both ends, you're not as bright as you think you are.
So make sure you get away on a regular basis just to think and just to be and hear the Lord and hear his vision for your organization, your church, or whatever it is that you lead. Clarify it, put it down on paper if you have to, and get people to buy into the vision for it. A true vision unites and where there's no vision, there's division.
So for me and my leadership through the years, I would just say to everybody, get a vision, buy in, and then pursue it with every ounce of your being.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas: If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've noticed that occasionally I interview a leader who played team sports on the intercollegiate level. This is because I believe a person can learn a lot about teamwork from playing team sports.
I've referred to this thread of interviews as Life and Leadership Lessons Learned from The Coaches In My Life. In addition to these conversations with David Chadwick, I've interviewed:
- Dr. Linda Livingstone - President Baylor University
- Brody Croyle - Executive Director of the Big Oak Ranch.
- Dr. Terry Franson - former Track and Field Coach at Azusa Pacific University and
- Shelby Livingstone - Assistant Volleyball Coach - Liberty University.
The common thread in each of these people's lives is that they have excelled in intercollegiate athletics. And they will tell you that they learned a lot about life and leadership from the coaches in their lives.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Moments of Hope Church
Books by David Chadwick:
Moving Beyond Anxiety: 12 Practical Strategies to Renew Your Mind
Hearing the Voice of God: He Knows You, He Loves You, He’s Always with You
It’s How You Play the Game: The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith
Eight Great Ways to Honor Your Wife
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] David Chadwick: He really wasn't the kind of coach trying to give pre-game speeches to excite us and get us more enthused about playing. I think he believed that games were not just won in a locker room. I think he would believe that you play as you practice. And he believed that games were won in practices. And he believed playing time was earned during the practices and he would watch how we practiced. And if we did practice well, we would get to play.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:30] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is David Chadwick, the pastor of Moments of Hope Church in Charlotte, North Carolina. David graduated from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, where he played basketball under the legendary coach Dean Smith and was a member of an NCAA Final Four Team. He has a graduate degree in counseling from the University of Florida and two degrees from Columbia Theological Seminary. David's also a radio host and the author of several books. Let's join the conversation.
Before we dive too deep into your professional career, let's go back to your childhood. What was it like growing up in the Chadwick household?
[00:01:11] David Chadwick: My dad was a pastor. He passed away about 15 years ago and I was raised in a preacher's kids home. Dad started out in the Moravian church centered in Winston Salem, North Carolina, largely. And then in 1953, he decided to become the senior pastor of a Presbyterian church at that point, a PCUS church in Charlotte, North Carolina.
I lived my very formative years here in Charlotte from 1953 to 1963. And it was very much a big part of my life. Much of my faith was embedded within me during those years. Then we moved to Kansas City, Kansas, where we lived, and Dad had a church in Kansas City, Missouri.
He felt like he'd done all he could do with the church in Charlotte. And so wanted a new challenge and went out there. And then my mom developed a strange allergy to cold and it came out of nowhere and Kansas City can be quite cold during the wintertime. And it threatened to close her breathing capacities and her voice.
And we had to quickly alter what God's plans were for Dad's life. Let me restate that Tommy. We had to seek God with some new ideas for our lives at that point. And strangely, by God's providence, Dad got a call to a church in Orlando, Florida. We went there for my junior and senior years. Having to move into my junior year in high school was not fun.
But it put me back on the East Coast and looking back now I can see how those were the years my basketball gifts really began to develop and of course, when I graduated from high school, I signed to play basketball at the University of North Carolina with Coach Dean Smith. That's a brief history of my background.
[00:02:57] Tommy Thomas: What do you think is the greatest gift your parents gave you?
[00:03:01] David Chadwick: Their own faith. I think faith is much more caught than taught. Though they did teach faith, they lived faith, and I saw in the different trials and vicissitudes that we would face in life that Mom and Dad really did lean on the Lord and not on their own understanding, and so I wanted who they were more than what they said. And I think that's the greatest gift they gave me. They modeled their faith.
[00:03:28] Tommy Thomas: What did you want to be when you grew up?
[00:03:32] David Chadwick: Not a pastor. I can tell you that. I saw my dad and all that he had to go through in pastoring, so I ran as far away from that as I possibly could. I think not knowing any better, because I grew to be six feet, eight inches tall and had some basketball acumen, I dreamed, like every kid that I could play in the NBA one day, so I put most of my energies early on into just developing my basketball prowess. Also, in North Carolina, I really loved communicating and talking, so I looked at the possibility of broadcasting as a career as well.
When I graduated from North Carolina in my senior year, I had some success. So a team in Europe recruited me and I went and played in the European Professional Leagues for three years and then came back and I wasn't sure exactly what I was supposed to do at that point in my life either and that's when I contacted John Lotz, who was the assistant coach at North Carolina when I played and had become the head coach at the University of Florida and again I came out of Orlando, Florida so I had a lot of connections throughout the state and so John offered me the possibility of becoming a graduate assistant with him.
And I did so for two years, earned a graduate degree in counseling before the Lord finally backed me into the corner and the Hound of Heaven pursued me and said, this is what I've called you to do, to proclaim my gospel in the local church. And I went into seminary in 1976.
[00:05:00] Tommy Thomas: Obviously, you had the makings of a great basketball player. What were your parent’s thoughts and how did they nurture, I assume it was nurture, it could have been discouragement. How did they fit into that?
[00:05:12] David Chadwick: They allowed all three of us, my sister and my brother to pursue our own giftedness. My brother and I had tremendous musical giftedness, mostly inherited from my dad. My dad had a chance to go on Broadway at one point while he was a minister. And he turned it down because he knew his calling was to the church. But my sister pursued her gifts and, I just got really tall and always loved sports. And pretty soon on, it became apparent that I was going to be really tall, and I had some giftedness in basketball.
So they allowed me to pursue that and go after it with every ounce of my being, and they came to all of my games, and I think they just wanted me to pursue my gifts, and they encouraged me.
[00:05:54] Tommy Thomas: What's your earliest memory of organized sports?
[00:05:58] David Chadwick: That would be when we moved to Kansas City. I was walking down the hall to Shrewsbury, who had an independent middle school basketball team that he coached and played in different Y leagues and those kinds of things. And he evidently found out my name and my telephone number and called my mom. And said, I saw your son walking down the hallways of middle school and he's pretty tall.
And my mom, she didn't really understand sports a whole lot, but she knew I was pretty tall. And he said I have a basketball team. Would your son be interested? And my mom said I'll have to leave that to him and his dad. And of course, Dad said, if that's what you want to pursue, son.
And so I tried out. I wasn't really good. I was so skinny during those early days that there was a joke that if I turned sideways and stuck out my tongue, I'd look like a zipper. I just didn't have beefiness at all to me, but I did love the game and I was tall, and Charlie Shrewsbury saw something in me.
So, for those two years that I was in Kansas City under him, I played on his teams and then I actually made the JV team my 10th grade year in high school and played partially from time to time on the varsity, but mostly JV.
And then between my sophomore and junior years when we moved to Orlando, something just happened. I put on some weight, all the athleticism began to come together, and I went from a JV player in my 10th-grade year to first-team All-State my junior year. Mom and Dad encouraged me to continue to pursue all of that.
[00:07:33] Tommy Thomas: So, what do you remember about Charlie's input? What do you think is the greatest thing you learned from him about life and leadership?
[00:07:40] David Chadwick: That fundamentals in the game of basketball are absolutely key if you're going to be successful. You better learn how to just do the basics: pass, shoot, rebound, block out. All of those are just basic things that you've got to do. And he instilled those fundamentals within me, which carry over to life.
There are certain fundamentals of life that you just have to have down, like loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and might, and loving your neighbors, and yourself, those basic principles that God teaches. And if you don't get those down, you're just not going to be successful.
I went to North Carolina, and I was not a great athlete by any means. I had some height and I had fundamental skills. I was a perfect Dean Smith kind of player.
I went to North Carolina, and I was not a great athlete by any means. I had some height and I had fundamental skills. I was a perfect Dean Smith kind of player. And so without Charlie's input in teaching me those fundamentals, I would have never been successful.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:08:35] Tommy Thomas: At what point in your basketball life under Coach Smith did you realize he was teaching you something other than basketball?
[00:08:44] David Chadwick: You probably, Tommy, realized that more after you leave, having played for him more than you do at the moment. But after you leave, you realize that he continued to place in you those fundamentals of how to play the game and also how to operate as a team.
And I probably learned more about leadership playing under Dean Smith than any other person ever taught me. And I think as you graduate and then look back you realize, my goodness, he was not only teaching you truths about how to play the game of basketball well, but he was also teaching you truths about how to live life well. And again, that became clearer after you left.
[00:09:30] Tommy Thomas: Some people don't put Christianity and competition in the same sentence, but obviously you've lived that life, Coach Smith lived that life. How does a Christian reconcile competition and desire to win against his or her faith?
[00:09:47] David Chadwick: All I can do is share my own pilgrimage in that area, and that is, if you look at competition as a measuring stick for you becoming better as a person. And in life in general ways, I think it's okay. If you look at the competition, though, to win, then it can become a personal ambition, which allows you to feel superior to another person.
And that's not good. That's pride. That's what allowed the devil to become the devil. And he wanted Jesus’ position, and he did everything he could to subvert the power of God so that he could have what he wanted. So it's a delicate balance for sure.
But if you have to win to be better than someone, you're in danger. But if you use competition simply to measure how better you're becoming, I think that's a good thing.
[00:10:43] Tommy Thomas: It's often said that a game is won or lost in the locker room before the start of the game. Do you remember any pre-game talks from Coach Smith or anybody else that that impacted the team?
[00:10:55] David Chadwick: He really wasn't the kind of coach trying to give pre-game speeches to excite us and get us more enthused about playing. I think he believed that games were not just won in a locker room. I think he would believe that you play as you practice. And he believed that games were won in practices. He believed playing time was earned during the practices and he would watch how we practiced. And if we did practice well, we would get to play.
I don't remember Coach Smith really giving us the pep talks before the games. I believe he was preparing us well and in that preparation, he believed that if we did what he said we needed to do, we would probably win the game.
[00:11:42] Tommy Thomas: I read a quote recently. It says you won't rise to the occasion. You will sink to your level of preparedness.
[00:11:47] David Chadwick: That's really good. He used to always say too, practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. And so how you practiced well and prepared yourself well would be the greatest indicator for success on the floor.
[00:12:07] Tommy Thomas: What did you learn from Coach Smith about mentoring?
[00:12:12] David Chadwick: You're preparing the next generation with how you yourself are living. And you could look at his own coaching and see how he prepared other coaches to be successful, obviously, even now, long after he's passed away and gone to be with the Lord.
You can see, for example, the number of coaches who came from his coaching tree. From Larry Brown to Doug Moe to Eddie Fogler to Roy Williams to the fact that Hubert Davis played under him in the late 1980s and is now coaching North Carolina. I think Coach Smith purposefully, and maybe even not so purposefully mentored other people to be great coaches.
And I think his coaching tree probably goes into the dozens of men who went into coaching, and then you think about the numbers of lives of those young men affected by Coach Smith's philosophies. It would go into the thousands.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:13:12] Tommy Thomas: No matter how hard and dedicated you are to do something; failure is always an option. How did y'all view that? You went into every game knowing you might not win.
Coach Smith lived by the principle of making failure your friend. By that I mean that he felt like failure wasn't a failure if you learn from it, and you get up and then move forward with what you've learned.
[00:13:24] David Chadwick: I think Coach Smith lived by the principle of making failure your friend. By that I mean that he felt like failure wasn't a failure if you learn from it, and you get up and then move forward with what you've learned.
And he knew that better than anybody. When he was hired in 1962, to be the head coach at North Carolina, he was coming out of Frank McGuire's scandal-ridden NCAA sanctions. And the Chancellor basically told Coach Smith, I don't care whether you win or lose, just run a clean program.
He had a great team eventually, but what people don't realize is in those early years, he was not that successful, and at one point, I think it was during the 1964 season, two years into his coaching tenure, he was hung in effigy, not once, but twice, by the student body, and he had lost a game in Durham against Duke that he was supposed to win, and he came back and there he was, his face and body hung in effigy at Woolen Gymnasium where they played those games then, and then he lost another game against, I think, Wake Forest that he was supposed to win, and the same thing happened twice, and Jimmy Smithwick, who was a player on that team then told me that Coach Smith got on the bus, and he said to the team, gentlemen your character is what you think of yourself.
Your reputation is what other people think of you. Emphasize character. And it's so interesting that he told the team to learn from their failures but use those failures to get better and better. And then as he began to get better and better players over the next couple of years in recruiting, he built great teams there.
But he always felt like you can't control your reputation. You can't control what other people think of you. You can control your character. Make sure that's always in place. And that'll be the basis of really being a good player that produces good teams.
[00:15:31] Tommy Thomas: I purchased your book It's How You Play The Game - The Leadership Principles of Dean Smith. It’s just a great read and I had circled some things in it. You write that Coach Smith thought of himself as a benevolent dictator. How did that play out?
[00:15:46] David Chadwick: He had a great relationship with Bill Guthridge, who was his assistant coach for 36 years and Coach Guthridge was a great basketball mind and a really good human being.
I think it was Leonard Bernstein who once said the most difficult position to play in the orchestra, was a second fiddle. And Bill Guthridge played second fiddle to Coach Smith for 36 years and did so well, but there was never any question, Tommy, about who ran that program. It was Coach Smith's program, and he oversaw it.
Now he got plenty of input from Coach Guthridge and when Eddie Fogler was his assistant, Roy Williams was his assistant, and others, he would get their input, but it was his decision and he ran the program the way he wanted to run it and you know what, as that benevolent dictator he had as his highest concern us as his players.
But he also had a great concern to run his program well and to win games because, you know what, you don't remain a head coach for all of his years unless you win games too.
[00:16:52] Tommy Thomas: You write that the concept of team may be Coach Smith's greatest contribution to basketball leadership in society. Can you unpack that a little bit?
[00:17:02] David Chadwick: There were several principles that I took away from him and have tried to live by in my life. One of them would be the team is more important than the individual. The other would be to always care for the individual. And then thirdly, your personal character is very important for success.
I alluded to that earlier, but that one idea of the team being more important than the individual would be one of Coach Smith's, if not his greatest contribution to basketball and to my life. You just can't succeed unless you have other people on board with you. You've got to work with them in order for success to occur.
Coach Smith just had this amazing ability to take high school superstars and bring them together in an environment where we each accepted our roles, our place on the bus, to use Jim Collins's word, and then to have a successful team come out of that. And we all were willing to sacrifice our own personal accolades for the sake of the team and if you didn't believe that you wouldn't last a month playing under Coach Smith, he just wouldn't put up with people who didn't buy that mantra.
[00:18:14] Tommy Thomas: I guess I didn't watch a lot of basketball when Michael Jordan played basketball, but he was obviously great there. But how did that work when you got somebody at that level? And there might have been other people who were just as good as Michael Jordan. How do you mold that kind of person into a team?
[00:18:32] David Chadwick: I obviously didn't play with Michael Jordan, but I played with Charlie Scott, who in the late 1960s was the Michael Jordan of that day. Charlie was the first black recruit to the University of North Carolina's basketball program, and he was just a great player. And yet, Charlie submitted his talents for the sake of the team.
And I think Coach Smith just made that team mantra so important that even the greatest of players felt like at the end of the day, it was better for them to win for their larger success in life to occur than it would be for them to have personal accolades. And Tommy, Coach Smith did things behind the scenes that developed that team idea.
And it's still being done today, years after his own death and years after I played. For example, when you score a basket, you have to point to the person who gave you the pass. That was Coach Smith's way of making sure that the person who sacrificed the basketball so somebody else could score and get all the accolades and the headlines got notoriety so that everybody in the stands and everybody watching on TV would see the person who scores pointing to the person who gave the pass.
And, that was his way of thanking others who made you successful. And if you didn't do that, you would not only be taken out of the game, but the next day, the whole team would have to run. He would punish the whole team if somebody didn't point to the person who gave them the pass in the game the night before.
So he just developed this team idea, this team atmosphere with things like that. Another example would be if you dove on the floor for a loose ball, sacrificing your body for the sake of one possession, which could very well determine a win or not. The person who dove on the floor has to run and help them up.
And if in watching the game films the next day Coach Smith notices that doesn't occur he's taken out of the game and also the whole team has to run. So you just see, he developed little small innuendos of developing that team that even the greatest of players, the Michael Jordans, the Charlie Scots, or whoever would submit themselves to again, for the sake of the team.
[00:20:44] Tommy Thomas: You have a quote in your book that says one characteristic of every leader who took his company from good to great was humility. How did that play out?
[00:20:57] David Chadwick: Oh, my. With Coach Smith, so many different ways. A couple of ways just in what I just shared with you, and that is people on the team making sure that others get accolades, get the finger pointed at them, the thanking for the pass.
But other ways, Coach Smith would always believe that teams win games, players win games, and coaches lose them. And he would never throw a player under the bus. Even if that player made the dumbest decision to lose a game, he would never throw that player under the bus. And that was one of his mantras to the press he would use all the time.
Players win games, coaches lose them, and Tommy, I was a part of one of Carolina's most disappointing losses ever. We played South Carolina when they were still in the ACC Tournament Championship game, and there was a jump ball at the end of the game that somehow went to the South Carolina player who laid it in at the buzzer, and we lost the game.
And I was in the game at the time, and I wondered, was I in the wrong place? Did I cost Carolina that game? A couple of decades later, when Coach Smith was coaching, I went to Chapel Hill and was visiting with him. And I just said to him, Coach, I've always wondered, was I the reason we lost that game?
And I just wondered, was I not in the right place? And he looked at me. Tommy, 20 years after I played, he said, David, he said, coaches lose games, players win them. If you weren't in the right place, which I'm not sure you weren't, but he said, that's my fault. And I take responsibility for it. Then he wouldn't talk about it anymore to make my soul soothed a bit and make sure I didn't feel like I'd lost that game.
++++++++++++++++
[00:22:38] Tommy Thomas: In your book, you write about Coach Smith's relationship with other coaches, Bobby Knight, and people that he coached against. On the one hand, they were fierce competitors, on the other hand, they were great friends. What lessons do you take away from that?
[00:22:55] David Chadwick: I think Coach Smith saw competition as healthy and valuable.
Again, as we talked about earlier, it helps show you where you are as a team and as an individual. Are you growing, getting better, etc. But he never looked at opposite coaches as enemies. He just didn't.
And Bobby Knight and Dean Smith could not have been more unalike. I think it was Bobby Knight who said to me when I interviewed him for the book that I wrote he said, Dean Smith's the master of the four corners offense. I'm the master of the four-letter word.
Tommy, I played for Coach Smith for four years, obviously, and knew him as a friend for years thereafter. I never once, and you can talk to any former player and ask them this question. Never once heard Coach Smith curse. Never once. He just didn't do it.
He always told us you can think of a better word. Don't show people how stupid you really are. You can think of a better word and Bobby Knight knew that, but it didn't stop him from swearing like a sailor. But Coach Smith and Bobby Knight were very close friends. They had personalities so different, but they were very close friends, with great respect for each other.
So I think it shows that you can be in an industry and you can have competitors, but they don't have to be your enemies. And indeed, if you look at them as good competitors, they only allow you to measure yourself to see how good you really are.
[00:24:13] Tommy Thomas: One day, sooner or later each of us is going to meet our maker. And I'm just wondering, what did you learn about death and dying from Coach Smith?
[00:24:22] David Chadwick: He had a real faith, and I outlined it in the book that I wrote, and I don't think it was as avert or evangelical faith as some would have wanted him to have, but he gave millions of dollars to the poor and needy.
I know that for a fact. I know he deeply cared for his players. Some people don't know this, but after he died, we all got a letter from his estate manager, and we all got a check from his estate for $200, with a personal letter sent to all of us, the 200 plus lettermen who played for him, that basically said, take out your wife or your special person on me to dinner.
And that's just the kind of person that he was. He realized that life was about giving, not getting. Life was about caring, not always wanting yourself to be the center of attention. And we talked a lot about this life, and he realized, you came into this world with nothing, you're going to leave with nothing.
He had very committed Christian Baptist parents from Kansas. They instilled faith in him. I didn't see him much right before he died. He was in a cognitive dissonance state. He just couldn't think clearly. But the times that we would talk about faith, I got no impression from him that he feared death.
And that he believed that he would meet his maker with his sins forgiven, but also a litany of good deeds that he did to serve our Lord. If you know your Bible, you're judged to be forgiven first of all, and then you go before the seat of the Lord. Get your reward of works, your good works that you've done because you love him. And I think Coach Smith got some really nice crowns for all of his good work.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:26:11] Tommy Thomas: Next week, we will continue this conversation with David Chadwick. He returned to the United States after three years of playing professional basketball in Europe, he had to decide what he was going to do when he grew up. After much soul searching, he surrendered to God's call upon his life to be a pastor. He served the local church as pastor for the last 40 years. Next week, we will see how he applied the life and leadership lessons that he learned from team sports and in particular from Coach Smith in the context of pastoring in the local church.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Moments of Hope Church
Books by David Chadwick:
Moving Beyond Anxiety: 12 Practical Strategies to Renew Your Mind
Hearing the Voice of God: He Knows You, He Loves You, He’s Always with You
It’s How You Play the Game: The 12 Leadership Principles of Dean Smith
Eight Great Ways to Honor Your Wife
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
[00:00:00] Rich Stearns: I learned early on, just the importance of, I've said this earlier, being truthful and being a person of integrity in the workplace, you never get caught in a lie if you don't lie.
And so, some of my early bosses drill that into my head. Bad news delivered late is terrible. Bad news delivered early is the best thing. If you have bad news, deliver it early. And don't try to hide things when they're going south. Tell the boss or the management that you've got a problem early on.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:28] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. We're continuing the conversation we began last week with Rich Stearns President Emeritus of World Vision US. Today we will continue with Rich's leadership journey. We'll also be discussing the all-important topic of board governance. I'm so grateful to Rich for taking time from his schedule to talk with me. As we mentioned last week, the search that JobfitMatters conducted that brought Rich to World Vision literally set our practice on a trajectory that helped make the firm into what it is today. Let's pick up on the conversation we started last week.
If you were creating a dashboard for a nonprofit to get at their health, what might the dials look like? How do you tell if a nonprofit is healthy?
[00:01:19] Rich Stearns: This is one of my pet peeves. You've got these services like Charity Navigator and almost all of these services focus on financial metrics.
What's the overhead? What's the balance sheet look like? What's the recent growth been over the last two or three years? Basically, those things have very little to do with whether a charity is a good charity, a well-performing charity, or a poorly performing charity. So, the only thing that really matters is the kind of impact that the nonprofit is having.
It's about impact. So, let's say it's a homeless ministry, right? What matters in a homeless ministry is how many of their clients actually get out of homelessness and go on to lead independent lives. That's really the outcome that you're looking for in a homeless ministry. And sometimes homeless ministries talk about how many beds they have and how many nights off the street they give their clients.
But just giving somebody a safe bed for the night doesn't solve their problem, right? So, you can say we put 300 men to bed every night, in this homeless shelter, and the next day they're on the street again and then the following day they come back to the shelter and there's nothing wrong with providing some safety for a little bit, but ultimately, you're looking for the cure, right?
How do we help these men, if they're men, get out of homelessness and get into more productive lives? But none of these charity evaluation websites talk about impact because it's so hard to measure. And it could be that the charity with the greatest impact also has high overheads. So, they get a negative rating from Charity Navigator, even though they were having a tremendous impact on the people that they're serving.
You always try to get inside the charity and say, what kind of work are you doing? And are you making an impact? Now, after that, you start to look at finances. So, at World Vision, we got into the clean water business a number of years ago. So then there's a measure called impact per dollar spent. The cost to bring clean water to one person for life through World Vision is $50. So, you tell a donor that for $50, I don't know what your water bill is, but mine's higher than $50 a month. But for $50 I can bring clean water to a person for life in Rwanda. And then I say, how many people do you want to bring clean water to?
How big a donation can you make? So that's impact per dollar, right? Impact per dollar spent. And that's the other thing I tend to look at.
[00:03:50] Tommy Thomas: Kind of a similar question. I've been asking this the last month or so and I've gotten some fascinating responses. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of the shark tank and nonprofit startups are coming to you for early-stage funding, what questions have you got to have solid answers for before you open your checkbook?
[00:04:10] Rich Stearns: The very first question that a shark tank guy would ask if you come with a new product is how is this product different from every other product that's already out in the market? In other words, nobody needs another cola drink, Coca-Cola, Pepsi Cola, RC Cola.
There are plenty of cola drinks out there. So, if your big idea is I'm going to do my own cola drink, the first question is why? So, with a nonprofit, for example, I've seen young people that want to start up a new World Vision, right? I want to help the poor in Africa. And so, I'm going to start my own non-profit organization to help them. And my question is why would you do that? Because World Vision is a $3.2B organization helping the poor around the world. Compassion is $1.5B helping the poor around the world. Samaritan’s Purse is a billion-dollar organization.
So, what are you doing that they're not doing? Why would I give my money to you instead of an established, successful nonprofit that's doing that work? And, a good example of a positive answer to that would be the International Justice Mission. My friend, Gary Haugen started it about 27 years ago.
He looked around and he said, there are a lot of organizations that are feeding the hungry and bringing clean water to the poor and doing microfinance. I don't see any organizations that are helping the poor with their legal problems protecting them from corrupt police departments and representing them in court when they're falsely accused of something or getting them out of bonded labor in India by using the court system.
So, Gary started International Justice Mission to focus on justice and legal issues. He could have called it “Lawyers Without Borders” if he wanted to, because essentially, he hires a lot of attorneys that go around the world, and they work through the legal systems to help people who are being oppressed in various ways.
So, the first question to ask is, why would I give to your charity? What is unique about it? And why wouldn't you just partner up with somebody that's already doing this work? If nonprofits are doing it, the next thing you look at is the leader's vision and motivation, right?
If there's a powerful leader with a powerful vision and capabilities you believe, just like you'd look at a startup CEO. Do they have the right vision? That's the other thing. Because it takes a lot of elbow grease to start up a nonprofit.
[00:06:40] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox said progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base with your foot on first. What's the biggest risk you've ever taken and how did it come out?
[00:06:51] Rich Stearns: Let me mention the Parker Brothers thing again. So, getting Parker Brothers into video games was a huge risk. We had to take our foot off first base because we had to hire 180 people. We had to create almost another whole company and another whole capability within the company to enter this new marketplace.
Cost a lot of money, and a lot of investment upfront, and I would say the outcome was both good and bad. So initially for a couple of years, we doubled the size of the company. We had huge growth, huge profit. But then about two years in, the whole video game market collapsed. It had been a bubble and it collapsed.
And when it collapsed, we had seven of the top ten selling video game cartridges in America. From our startup position, we had been very successful. But once the market collapsed, you couldn't give those products away. They were selling video game cartridges, three for $10 in a barrel at Toys R Us because the market was glutted with people trying to get into that market.
It was a little bit like the Dot Com bubble in 2000. So anyways, all that profit we made. We had to give it all back over the next few years. That's one of the reasons I got fired from Parker Brothers. But I tried to persuade Parker Brothers to stay in there, hang in there, right? Because video games are going to come back.
But they decided that it was too risky. They wouldn't stay in. And of course, we now know that the video game market is bigger than all of Hollywood combined in terms of revenues. And it's bigger than most professional sports. And so had we stayed in video games, we would have probably had huge opportunities in the future, but that was a huge risk to take. And when you take a risk, you bet big, and you lose big, or you win big.
I think the other risk was the AIDS campaign that I did with World Vision, because there was a possibility that HIV and AIDS would turn the American church against us.
People say, why are you doing this? Why are you helping people that were affected by this, disease that's sexually transmitted? I thought you were about helping children. And so, we had to get our messaging right with AIDS. We took a bit of a risk to go there, but in the end, it really paid off because what people learned about World Vision is that we would tackle the most difficult issues in the most difficult places.
And that earned us a lot of respect from pastors and donors. Because nobody else was doing it at the time, nobody else was willing to take that risk. And we did, and ultimately a lot of organizations followed us a few years later. But that was another pretty risky venture.
[00:09:39] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anybody's ever given you?
The best piece of advice that I have received is to be truthful and be a person of integrity in the workplace. You never get caught in a lie if you don't lie.
[00:09:41] Rich Stearns: The best piece of advice that I would say, first of all, I learned early on, just the importance of, I've said this earlier, being truthful and being a person of integrity in the workplace. You never get caught in a lie if you don't lie.
And so, some of my early bosses drill that into my head. Bad news delivered late is terrible. Bad news delivered early is the best thing. If you have bad news, deliver it early. And don't try to hide things when they're going south. Tell the boss or the management that you've got a problem early on.
One piece of advice I got during a difficult time, I can't remember where I was, probably at Parker Brothers. It was a difficult year and one of my coworkers said, what you have to understand, because most of us, we're afraid we're going to lose our job or we're afraid something's going to happen to us.
And he used to say, remember this company needs you more than you need them, right? Because if you're a good worker and you're productive and you've got good ideas, the place you work for needs you more than you need them. And I learned that later as a CEO looking for good people. When I had good people working for me, all I want to know is how do I keep them?
How do I motivate them? I need them more than they need me because they can find another job, but it's going to be hard for me to find another person of that caliber. So, the importance of retaining really good people struck me.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:11:09] Tommy Thomas: You've been out of office for a couple of years now, but let's go back three or four years. If you had invited me to one of your staff meetings and then we had dismissed you, and I asked the team what's the most difficult thing about working for Rich? What might I have heard?
[00:11:27] Rich Stearns: I don't know. I want to say you have to ask them that question. You've interviewed some of the people that worked for me in the past. But I would probably say I tended to be an idea machine, that in a particular meeting, I would throw out 20 new ideas.
What about this? Or what about that? What if we did this? And what I learned is that when you're the CEO people are frantically taking notes on everything that comes out of your mouth. Let's say you throw out 20 ideas. They're likely to leave that meeting and spend the next month pursuing all 20 of those ideas.
And I realized that I had to tell people, look, I'm going to throw out a bunch of ideas in this meeting. I want you to throw out ideas too. Not all my ideas are good. Number one: Don't be afraid to challenge me just because I'm the president. In this room let's think of ourselves all as equals.
Everybody in this room has got good ideas and we need to challenge ideas. Some are good, some are bad, some are worth keeping, and some are not. They're like panning for gold, right? I realized that I needed to give people permission to challenge me as a leader and to challenge me in front of other people.
I used to say, if you don't challenge my ideas, you're not very useful to me because I need other people to help me evaluate which of these ideas have merit and which ones really don't. And if you can't contribute to that, why are you at the meeting? You realize that they probably say Rich threw out too many ideas at the meeting.
And I left wondering which ones do I really focus on? So I think that could have been frustrating sometimes for people.
[00:13:04] Tommy Thomas: What do you think they would have said was the most rewarding part?
[00:13:09] Rich Stearns: I don't know. I like to feel that people enjoyed working for me. I tried to create a sense of camaraderie among my teams. I tried not to lead like the imperial CEO that I'm the boss and you're not. Or I'm here on the organization chart, you're down here. So I tried to be more of a collaborative leader. Hey, we're all a team and every member of the team is important.
All these people that work for me are made in the image of God and they have incredible talents, ideas, backgrounds, uniqueness, unique gifts, and talents.
Everyone's gifts are different.
And you've all got great ideas. And I tried to, especially in the latter half of my career, I started to see that all these people that work for me are made in the image of God and they have incredible talents, ideas, backgrounds, uniqueness, unique gifts, and talents. Everyone's gifts are different.
Everyone's abilities are different. And when you start seeing that kind of symphony of talent in front of you, you're like an orchestra conductor and you say, how can I bring the beautiful music out of these talented musicians that I have working for me? I might have a CEO who was brilliant.
In fact, you knew one or two of my CEOs who would have been terrible at marketing, right? But he was a brilliant CFO. And so, I recognized that and made sure that I relied on him and leaned into him for his giftedness. Then over somewhere else, I've got a really talented person in product development coming up with new products.
And so, you bring that talent out. Ultimately, a leader is like that orchestra conductor. How do you get all these really gifted musicians, each gifted in a different way to play together so that what comes out is a beautiful symphony instead of, discordant, loud sounds that are unpleasant.
I like to think that I could create a positive work environment, positive culture for the team. And what I learned about success in the workplace is that teams of people that work well together and feel valued and are in a healthy culture, they're much more productive than people in a negative difficult culture.
Culture matters a lot and leaders tend to create culture.
[00:15:20] Tommy Thomas: Here's a quote I'd like you to respond to: “When you're sitting around the table with your leadership team, you never want to be the smartest person at the table”.
[00:15:29] Rich Stearns: I love that quote. And actually, one of my first, I'll go back to Parker Brothers, the President of Parker Brothers, Randolph Parker Barton, when I joined was the family vestige or holdover from the old company that had been acquired by General Mills.
Mr. Barton was, how do I say it? Not the most capable leader. He didn't have a Wharton MBA. He didn't come up through other consumer products companies. He inherited his job because he was a family member. He knew a lot about toys and games, but he wanted to hire the smartest, most gifted, talented people he could find and let them do what they were capable of doing.
And he developed a reputation from within General Mills, the parent company, for having some of the brightest up-and-coming leaders in the whole General Mills organization, which was much bigger than Parker Brothers. And he basically did it by hiring well and then delegating a lot of authority and influence to the smart people that he hired.
He never felt threatened by them because he realized that as long as he kept hiring the best people, he would get the best performance for his division. And General Mills would reward him as the president with bonuses and compensation, increase and all of that. I learned from him to hire really the best people you can, to try to find people smarter than you or smarter than you in their field.
Hire the best people you can.
Try to find people smarter than you or smarter than you in their field.
So again, a CFO who is much better at finance than I am, or hiring a head of human resources that's much more gifted than I am in human resources. A General Manager or a President is really a generalist, right? The orchestra conductor can't play all those instruments, so they need people that are really good at the violin, really good at percussion, really good at clarinet and woodwinds.
And when you get the very best musicians working for you, that's when the beautiful music starts to happen.
+++++++++++++++
[00:17:34] Tommy Thomas: Let's just switch over to board service. I think board service is hard at any level. Talk to me about the board chair. What's the primary function of the chairman of the board?
[00:17:49] Rich Stearns: I think the primary function of the Board Chair is to manage the board. We used to have 18 board members at World Vision. It was a pretty large board. And you got 18 people in a room that are all pretty smart. They're all from different walks of life and they've got ideas and suggestions and things of that nature.
The Board Chair’s main job is to manage the Board.
That Board Chair reminds the Board that their job is governance, a policy role.
And the Board Chair has a very important role in focusing the board on the job at hand. You're not necessarily here for everybody to throw in their ideas. We have a professional staff to run the company or run the organization. The board chair reminds them that their role is a governance role, a policy role.
Certainly, their ideas can be offered, but it's really the role of the CEO and the staff to determine whether those ideas are effective or usable. I think the board chair really must control the work of the board and direct it in the right ways. And he's basically herding, 10, 12, 15 other board members, to focus on the job at hand.
The other role of the Chair is to be close to the CEO so that the CEO and the board chair are on the same page. The Board Chair can deliver some difficult information to the CEO if let's say the performance is poor or other board members have a problem with the way the CEO is conducting the meetings or leading the organization.
The Board Chair is often the messenger that brings that information to the CEO, hopefully in a way that's redemptive instead of crushing, that, how can I help this CEO be more successful by giving feedback to him from the board? The board chair is really a pretty critical pivotal role.
[00:19:37] Tommy Thomas: I know your past Board Chair for the last few years of your time at World Vision. What was the key to you and Joan working together so well?
The key to a CEO / Board working relationship comes down to mutual respect.
[00:19:45] Rich Stearns: I think it comes down to mutual respect. I think Joan had a lot of respect for me. I was a long-serving CEO of World Vision by the time she was Board Chair.
She had a lot of respect for me, my capabilities, and what I'd accomplished at World Vision over those years. But I also had respect for her and her position. I always respected the Board Chair's position because in my worldview, the board chair and my board in a Christian organization, that was God's way of holding me in the organization accountable.
These people were accountable before God for this ministry that was entrusted to their care and their governance care as board members. And I never saw the board as an adversary, I always saw them as really a gift that they were there to keep us on the right track, to keep us out of trouble, to ask the tough questions that needed to be answered to make sure we were financially solvent, to make sure we stayed on mission.
And by respecting their role they could see that I respected them, which caused them to respect and trust me more. A board relationship is very much about trust. If if the board trusts the leader who's leading the organization and that leader's team that's a critical ingredient.
And the leader has to trust the board not to do inappropriate things or get involved in inappropriate ways and not to be disruptive and if you have mutual trust, which the chair often negotiates that, or referees that, or tries to ensure that you're off to a good start with a board CEO relationship.
[00:21:24] Tommy Thomas: When I interviewed you back in 2017 you mentioned that from your perspective, the best thing that the World Vision Board did for you when you came on was you recalled an offsite retreat where y'all got introduced to each other. Could you share a little bit about that with us?
We probably have a lot of up-and-coming CEOs listening and that might be an interesting discussion.
[00:21:45] Rich Stearns: I don't know how much that costs. Probably not much, but it was the best money World Vision ever spent. When I came into World Vision the Board and the CEO had what I'd call a turbulent relationship.
He wasn't thrilled about his board and the way they behaved, and the Board wasn't thrilled about him in certain ways. And so, I was coming into kind of a troubled marriage, right? You could say there'd been a divorce, and I'm the new husband coming in. And so, the Board had enough wisdom to say, you know what, we should start off on the right foot here.
Why don't we hire a board consultant to come in and do a two-day retreat with a new CEO to teach the Board and the new CEO how best they should interact and communicate with one another? So, a friend of yours and mine named Bob Andringa, he's retired now, but he was in the Board consulting business.
He's written at least one book if not several. He came in and he conducted a Board Governance 101, 102 course for all of us and gave us tools to use and dealt with different scenarios of the dos and don'ts for Board Members and the dos and don'ts for the staff and the CEO. Here is the best way to understand your responsibility as Board Members.
This is what your responsibility is, and this is what your responsibility is not. This is the role you play. This is the role you don't play. And the same with a CEO. Rich, your role is this. The board's role is to establish policy. I guess the best way to say it is it laid down the ground rules for a healthy relationship.
And I don't think it's an exaggeration to say I had a 20-year honeymoon with my board. Not that there wasn't an occasional marital argument over the years. But it was like a 20-year honeymoon with the board. And I respected them, they respected me. My staff, when I first started, after a year, they said, boy, you've had a one-year honeymoon with this board.
It's amazing. Because they'd seen some of the dysfunction in the prior years. And 20 years later, they were still saying you're still on your honeymoon. And in terms of my response, what I attribute it to, is what I talked about earlier, Tommy, that the board knew they could trust me.
I would never tell them a lie. I would never hide anything. I was completely transparent. Anything they wanted to talk about at a board meeting, we could talk about. Any numbers they wanted to see; we'd show them. If I had some bad numbers, I'd bring them to the board and say, look, this is not good, and here's what we're going to do. They never felt I was hiding anything. And so that created trust as well.
The board knew they could trust me. I would never tell them a lie. I would never hide anything. I was completely transparent. Anything they wanted to talk about at a board meeting, we could talk about.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:24:34] Tommy Thomas: One of the guys that you've influenced over the years is Joseph J. Mettimano, the President at Central Union Mission in Washington, DC. And when I interviewed Joe he talked about a lesson he learned from you about the President's Report to the Board. He would attribute part of his success to what he learned from you there. Tell us about that.
[00:24:53] Rich Stearns: I started every board meeting with a President's Report. So, the Board is gathered, in the case of World Vision they've flown in from all over the country and here they are at the World Vision board meeting, and remember, they're all volunteers, some are pastors, some are business people. They're from all walks of life and so I tried to use the President's Report to basically bring them up to speed on what was going on at World Vision. What were the important issues? What were we doing about the important issues? How are the finances doing? I tried to answer as many questions as they might have in advance.
I started every board meeting with a President's Report. I tried to use the President's Report to basically bring them up to speed on what was going on at World Vision. What were the important issues? What were we doing about the important issues? How are the finances doing?
Because the rest of the board meeting, the finance committee was going to meet and other committees were going to meet. And I tried to use the President's Report to cast a bit of a vision for where we were as an organization, where we're headed, what my outlook was for the coming year or the coming quarter.
And I try to use the Board Meeting to really cast a vision to remind them of the mission of World Vision. Often, I would start with a trip report. I've just gotten back from the Syrian refugee crisis, and I want to tell you what I saw. I would remind them, we're sitting here in a nice boardroom, but people are dying all over the world.
And our job is to intercede for them to help them to rescue those who are perishing, as the book of Proverbs says. And so, trying to remind them why they were here, why World Vision was here, and then look under the hood at the financials, the numbers, the revenues, the overhead, and you had to deal with issues like real estate transactions and mundane stuff like that.
I wanted to always put it in the context of the bigger mission, vision, and values of the organization. My President's Report would sometimes go 90 minutes to two hours, which is a lot. But usually, the board would say that was the highlight of the meeting because that really brought them up to date on everything.
My President's Report would sometimes go 90 minutes to two hours, which is a lot. But usually, the board would say that was the highlight of the meeting because that really brought them up to date on everything.
[00:26:46] Tommy Thomas: I've done a little bit of speaking here over the past three or four years, most of it pre-pandemic on succession planning and one of the things that we talk about in that is how much of the outgoing president's identity is tied up in his or her current job. You've been away now for almost two years, any reflections on that? Did you have any trouble walking away?
[00:27:11] Rich Stearns: No, I didn't actually. I talk about this a lot. We had a very orderly succession process when I left World Vision. In 2015, I hired a Chief Operating Officer, and he worked under me for three years, learning the ropes.
He then became a candidate to succeed me, although the board did a nationwide search. They ultimately selected him. But about two years before I retired in an executive session of the board, I said, look I'm planning to retire. I had a contract that expired in two years, and we renewed my contract every five years for 20 years.
And I said, at the end of this contract, I'm planning to retire and I'm giving you a gift right now. The gift is number one, I'm leaving without any drama, it's like you're not having to talk at the bathroom breaks about when is the old guy going to retire, when is he going to leave, I'm retiring, I want to retire at the top of my game, not at the bottom of my game.
And that's a gift to you because now as a board, you can focus totally on how can we have the best transition process. How can we use this time to find the very best candidate to replace Rich? And you don't have to worry about any of the drama or that I'm going to be clinging to power and so long story short, Tommy, they did a very good job.
They did a pretty thorough search. They took a lot of advice from me because I said a lot of nonprofits do this very poorly. And some of the nonprofits that I shared with them during my 20 years at World Vision, some of these nonprofits that were peer organizations had 10 CEOs come and go.
And I said that's very unhealthy for an organization to have 10 years. And the reason they had 10 CEOs is because their nonprofit volunteer board continued to make bad decisions about who to hire, so I wanted to help them make a good decision about who to hire with all the facts on the table and knowledge.
So then I retired, and I had a nice retirement party. We had a passing of the torch to my successor, Edgar Sandoval, who was the COO under me for the last three years. Then I walked away, and I know a lot of people really have a struggle in retirement and they feel like they've lost their identity.
I felt like I gave everything I had for 20 years. I gave World Vision everything I had to offer. It's somebody else's turn. I sensed it was time for fresh leadership. I was 67 years old I had a family, a growing family, grandsons, a wife that I had been away from for a lot of months during my time at World Vision, traveling internationally and I was ready, and I looked at retirement as this is my sabbath rest after a 45-year career.
[00:30:01] Tommy Thomas: Bringing this thing to a close. What's something that you would have liked to have told a younger version of yourself?
[00:30:09] Rich Stearns: You know a couple of things come to mind. One is comical - a career is a very long time.
In your 20s or 30s, you're in a particular job in a particular industry or sector and your career seems you're focused on this year, right? You're right now, this job, maybe you're thinking about what would my next job be, but in a 40-some-year career, you can do a lot of different things, and if you feel like I used to, I tell young people, if your current job is not your dream job, and it probably isn't, think of it as a stepping stone toward your dream job. Because every job you have gives you more information, more experience. I'm good at this. I'm not good at that. I like this kind of environment.
I don't like this kind of environment. You're learning more about yourself and hopefully, the next job you have, the next company, or whatever organization you work for becomes a better and better fit, and more and more like your dream job, the dream situation that you'd like to be in.
So don't get too impatient. A career is a very long time. Look at me. I started out selling shaving cream for Gillette. I ran a toy company. I was there for nine years. I spent 11 years at Lennox China selling fine china, crystal gifts, and things like that. Then I spent 20 years at World Vision.
I've had three or four different careers during my 40-some years, and then developed a fifth career as an author. I've written four books now. You can do a lot of things in 40 years. Even if you don't like your current job, take heart. There's hope your next job may be the one that you really love and really fits you well.
One other thing I'd say, this is a little piece of managerial advice, the most powerful tool in a leader's vocabulary is encouragement. You motivate people a lot more with encouragement. Hey, that was a great idea you had at the meeting today. Wow, I loved your contribution to that discussion.
The most powerful tool in a leader's vocabulary is encouragement.
You motivate people a lot more with encouragement.
That report you gave was fantastic. With that kind of affirmation, people just thrive and they bloom when they get a compliment from the boss. The problem is, as bosses, we often like to lead with criticism. Yeah, I didn't like the way you ended that presentation. Or, 90% of the presentation could have been fabulous, but you didn't like their last two slides.
And you think, oh, so what do they hear? I failed. The boss didn't like it. And that diminishes people. It crushes their spirits. You attract a lot more bees with honey than you do with vinegar. There's a time for correction.
And even correction is more easily digested when it's preceded by praise and encouragement. I think it's a superpower that a leader who really encourages people, we've all raised kids, and your kid will bring home some crazy drawing from first grade. And what do you do? You praise it and say, I love the way you drew that pumpkin for Halloween, I love the way you drew that house.
We praise them. We encourage them. We need to find ways to praise and encourage our staff, and our teams. And then again, correction, when needed, obviously in the right circumstances, but encouragement is powerful.
Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today and thanks to Rich Stearns for sharing his leadership journey with us. I've put links to all of Rich’s books in the episode notes, along with some that he and his wife Reneé wrote together. Several months ago, we began to put a transcript of the podcast in the episode notes. Many of you have commented on how helpful this is to you.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
World Vision
Books by Rich Stearns:
Lead Like It Matters to God: Values-Driven Leadership in a Success-Drive World by Richard Stearns
The Hole in Our Gospel 10th Anniversary Edition: What Does God Expect of Us? The Answer That Changed My Life and Might Just Change the World by Richard Stearns
Books by Rich and Reneé Stearns:
God’s Love For You Bible Storybook by Richard Stearns & Reneé Stearns
He Walks Among Us: Encounters with Chris in a Broken World by Richard Stearns & Reneé Stearns
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Rich Stearns: Tommy, one of my favorite quotes, and I don't even know who said this originally, but it goes like this, never trust a leader without a limp. And what that is basically saying is that a leader who has only known success is not completely formed as a leader.
It's often been said, we learn much more from failure than we do from success. It's also been said that it's harder to pass the test of prosperity than it is to pass the test of failure.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:28] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us for the 100th episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas. And thank you to all the guests and listeners who've made this possible. My guest today is Rich Stearns, the President Emeritus of World Vision. I wanted Rich as my guest today to celebrate this milestone for the podcast because he inadvertently has played such a pivotal role in my career as a search consultant.
My former colleague, Rob Stevenson, and I conducted the search that brought Rich to World Vision as their President. I don't think I'm exaggerating to say that for the next 10 years or so after Rich started at World Vision either Rob or I would receive at least one call a month and usually more from a nonprofit organization with the question.
Were you the guys who brought Rich Stearns to World Vision? We would respond, yes. Their next comment would be something like, we need a new CEO. Can you bring us somebody like Rich? So, in many ways, the good work that Rich did for world vision was a launching pad for what is now JobfitMatters Executive search.
I have a lot to be thankful for. Let's pick up on the conversation I had with Rich.
So let me give the listeners a little bit of context for how I know Rich. It was the summer of 1997. It was a hot July afternoon and I get a phone call from a friend in Los Angeles saying, did you know Bob Seiple is retiring and World Vision is putting out an RFP for the search? And I said, no, I didn't know that.
And he says you need to bid on that search. So, I called my colleague up in Minnesota, Rob Stevenson. And oddly enough, he had received a call that morning from a friend of his in Minneapolis that said, did you know Bob Seiple's retiring? And you need to bid on that search. Rob and I put our material together and we submitted a proposal and lo and behold, we got accepted.
And as Rob tells the story, we rejoiced for about 10 minutes and then we asked ourselves, what have we gotten ourselves into here? So, Rich, I don't know if you've heard that story, but that's how we got into it. Maybe tell us a little bit about your initial thoughts when Rob first called you.
[00:02:45] Rich Stearns: It was actually a funny story, before that, Tommy, that just shortly after that search was begun and you guys were selected, I got a call from a friend of mine who worked at World Vision and was actually my donor rep. I was the CEO of Lenox China at the time, and he was my major donor representative and also a good friend. We went back quite a few years and he said to me, Rich I've been praying this last week because Bob Seiple announced his retirement.
And I've just been praying for World Vision because I really want the organization to find the right successor to Bob and this, that, and the other thing. And he said, but something really strange happened this morning in my quiet time. As I was praying, he said I don't know how to say it, but to tell you that the Holy Spirit told me that you're going to be the next President of World Vision.
Your friend Rich is going to be the next President of World Vision. And I laughed out loud. I said, that's ridiculous. I said, I'm selling fine China to the wealthy, Bill. I don't know anybody on the World Vision Board of Directors. And besides, I'm not available, interested, or qualified to do the job. But other than that, I'm a perfect candidate.
That was almost a year before. I actually eventually took the job and it's quite an amazing story overall and the way God used you and Rob as well.
[00:04:12] Tommy Thomas: That was the first time we'd ever put an ad in the Wall Street Journal and a trustee on the World Vision Board said we need to advertise in The Journal.
And we did. And as I remember, maybe your HR guy, he clipped that and showed it to you.
[00:04:26] Rich Stearns: I had a VP that worked for me at Lenox, and he sent me a handwritten note and it basically said, Dear Rich, I was reading the Wall Street Journal today and I saw this ad and it was a little, one column ad president for World Vision.
And he said, I read this ad and it sounded like you and I just wondered if you had seen it. And then he said, P.S. This was really a dumb thing to do, to send a want ad to the CEO of my company. I hope you don't leave. You're a great CEO and please ignore the fact that I was looking at the want ads.
And so anyway, I saw that ad and it sent a shiver up my spine because, months earlier, my friend, Bill had made this prophecy that I was somehow going to become the President of World Vision.
[00:05:11] Tommy Thomas: When Rob called you, do you remember your thoughts or feelings?
[00:05:15] Rich Stearns: Yeah, I spent a good part of the call telling Rob that I was not qualified for the job. It was a big Christian organization that focused on global poverty. I knew nothing about global poverty. I had never been to Africa. I had never done any fundraising. I had no theological training to work at a Christian organization, no MDiv degree, or anything like that. And for heaven's sake, I was selling fine China to the wealthy.
So, I just said, I just seem like a terrible candidate for this job. And by the way, Rob, I'm not really available either.
[00:05:54] Tommy Thomas: And Rob prevailed, he stayed with you and ultimately you did accept it. How have your feelings changed over 22-23 years now?
[00:06:04] Rich Stearns: As I got further into this process with Rob, very reluctantly, I was the runaway bride, if you remember that movie but, this was a job I hadn't sought. I didn't want. I was actually somewhat terrified. I hope they don't pick me because I would be a complete washout in that job. I would fail. I don't have the right experience for it. In retrospect, those next 20 years at World Vision were the best years of my life.
And I learned a huge lesson about trusting God for the outcome. When God calls you, if you listen to His call and you heeded His call, he'll catch you. He'll travel with you. One of my favorite quotes is from William Sloan Coffin, who was once the President of Yale many years ago, and he said, I love the recklessness of faith.
I love the recklessness of faith.
First, you leap. And then you grow wings.
First, you leap. And then you grow wings. And that's a little bit of what it's like to answer a call from God. First, you leap. God wants your obedience. And only then do you grow the wings to fly. And you can look at people in the Bible like Moses or David or Peter. They had to leap in faith, take a leap of faith, and then God provided what they needed for the task at hand.
[00:07:21] Tommy Thomas: I want to change over to your time at World Vision, but before we go there take us back to your childhood and tell me what was it like growing up in the Stearns household?
My dad was an alcoholic and on his third marriage.
And when I was about ten that marriage failed.
[00:07:29] Rich Stearns: Tommy, I had a pretty rough family background. Neither of my parents went to high school. My mother did a couple of years of high school.
My father dropped out of the eighth grade. My dad was an alcoholic and on his third marriage. And when I was about ten that marriage failed. My parents divorced and the bank foreclosed on our house and my mother, my sister and I were kicked out and had to find an apartment to rent.
It was an inauspicious beginning, and as a little boy, my world fell apart when I was about ten years old.
[00:08:04] Tommy Thomas: I suppose there would be a happy memory from that. What would be your best memories of childhood?
[00:08:10] Rich Stearns: First of all, that I survived it which is for God's grace. I had an understanding at a pretty early age, 12 or 13. I had an older sister that helped me a little bit, but she basically said, look, our escape route from this lifestyle is education. And if you can get good grades and you can get into a good college, your life doesn't have to turn out like our dads, you could really make something of yourself and it's all about education.
And that was my focus starting in maybe junior high and through high school. And, I have to say, my childhood, other than the family issues, I had a pretty normal, happy childhood. We lived in a little suburban community, went to a good school, I had good teachers who believed in me in many cases.
I had a good group of friends who came from families whose parents were professionals and more stable families. And I've spent a lot of time at other kids' houses, with their families. And so anyway, I think the community somewhat compensated for the problems that I had at home.
[00:09:20] Tommy Thomas: When you came out of high school, how did you make your college decision?
[00:09:22] Rich Stearns: That's also a funny story. So, my best friend first of all, when I was in junior high school and I wrote letters to all eight Ivy League colleges asking for their catalogs, which was pretty presumptuous.
But my sister told me the best colleges of all are Ivy League schools. And there were eight of them. One of them, Cornell University, was just 50 miles from my home in Syracuse. And at that stage in my life, the biggest dream I had was maybe I could go to a school 50 miles away, and I could drive there, right?
And so, in my senior year of high school, I told my mother, I really think I'd like to apply to Cornell University. And she just burst out laughing. She just said that's ridiculous. How are you going to pay for Cornell University? She said, I don't have any money and your father's a drunk and he's not going to help you.
And you can't go to Cornell, and I said I don't know Mom, but I'm going to find a way. I'll get scholarships. I'll do something. That’s not the way you want your parent to encourage you when you're making a big decision. I did the application on my own and sent it in.
It was the only college I applied to. And not only did I get in, but I got a scholarship and then I got another New York State Regent Scholarship. And this buddy of mine who also went to Cornell, we ended up going together. And he was my roommate freshman year. He's still my best friend. We're still in touch all these years later.
So, getting to Cornell was a huge step for my life and that really opened all the doors that came after that in terms of further education and job opportunities. And I guess you could say I successfully escaped my childhood situation and found a way to overcome it.
+++++++++++
[00:11:05] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are always surprised to know about you?
[00:11:11] Rich Stearns: Often people are surprised to know about my family background, right? Because when you graduated from two Ivy League schools, people think you must've been born on third base or born with a silver spoon in your mouth. And that wasn't the case for me. But I think today one of the quirky things about me is I collect comic books from the 1950s and 60s. So you wouldn't think I was a comic book collector but for some reason, they bring back a lot of memories of my childhood because partly growing up they were a form of escapism for me.
I could escape from my crazy world by looking at superheroes like Superman and Spider-Man and fantasizing about a different kind of world where the good guys always win, and the bad guys always lose. And so anyway I have quite a collection of comic books.
[00:12:01] Tommy Thomas: Successful people are asked all the time, what makes you successful? I'd like to frame the question a little differently, and that would be, what is a factor that has helped you succeed that most people wouldn't know about?
[00:12:14] Rich Stearns: This also relates a little bit to my family background, but I understood as a teenager that I didn't have a safety net, right? So I was either going to make it on my own or I was not going to make it, but I didn't have anything to fall back on. I didn't have family wealth. It wasn't like I could move back in necessarily with my parents. So when I got to Cornell, I just thought I've got to succeed or die. It's like graduate or bust because, in fact, I remember one summer I was driving a taxi some of the summers during Cornell and even when I was in business school, the summer before business school.
And there was another college kid my age driving a taxi with me to make money. And that Fall he decided, I'm not going back to college. I'm making pretty good money driving a cab, and I'm just going to stay driving a cab. He said, you ought to think about it, Rich. And I said, my dream is that someday I'm going to ride in the backseat of a cab because I saw that as something rich people did. They wrote in the backseat of cabs. I'd never ridden in the backseat of a taxi. So, just understanding that I didn't have a safety net and that, I had to make it or bust motivated me. Now, I think later in my career, Tommy, the success factor for most leaders, I think, is the ability to get along with people to win their trust and respect, to motivate people around you who are part of your team, to treat people the right way and develop a group of people that respect you for your ideas.
And those people are very helpful in your career, ultimately, because if you're successful managing those people, you're probably going to do pretty well in your career.
[00:13:58] Tommy Thomas: Most of us, if we've been around very long, we've had our mettle tested two or three times some of us come out better than others. Can you share with us a time when you had your mettle tested and how you came out of it?
[00:14:09] Rich Stearns: I'm quite proud of this accomplishment. Most leaders can't say this, but I got fired twice in the space of one year, early in my career. It's a long story that I won't tell, but being fired twice was devastating.
I was in my mid-thirties. I had three kids, and a mortgage to pay,
and I got fired twice in the space of one year.
I was in my mid-thirties. I had three kids, and a mortgage to pay. And of course when you're fired from a job, so much of your identity is wrapped up in your title and where you work, what we do. It can just be very devastating when that is kicked out from under you, not to mention the financial insecurity and things that go along with that.
God actually used that in my life to really deepen my faith and kind of drive me back to him. If I'm honest with myself, I would say in the first 10 years of my career, I was very successful. I became a CEO by the age of 33 and everything I touched seemed to turn to gold. And I thought, wow, this is sweet.
This is going to be a great life. I've made it. And now I've made it to the top of this company. And then all of a sudden, the winds changed. I got fired and found another job. I got fired from that and then found myself totally derailed. But I think what God was trying to do is say, Rich, I'm going to take you out of the game and sit you on the bench.
The coach needs to do a little work with you. I think what was happening is I was forgetting that my first job is to be an ambassador for Christ in the workplace, that's really my calling. That's the calling of every Christian. It's from II Corinthians 5 where Paul says, we are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though God is making his appeal through us.
And so, wherever you work, whatever you do, if you're a follower of Christ, you're supposed to be His ambassador. And the other job you have is really your cover job, right? It's almost like you're undercover and whatever you do, you might be a professor, you might be a businessperson, or a teacher. And what God taught me over the course of those two years, I was unemployed for about a year looking for a job, and there's no more helpless feeling than being unemployed and hat in hand, basically asking people if they'd consider hiring you. You have no power. All you can do is make phone calls and apply for jobs, answer want ads, those kinds of things.
I think what God was really teaching me is to get your priorities straight. And when you've done that, I'll put you back in the game. And there was this memory from my childhood catechism classes. I grew up Catholic and we had to memorize the answer to this question, why did God make me?
And the answer was to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world. And it dawned on me, it was like a flash of insight, that's what I've been missing. Wherever I work, my job is to know God, to love Him, and to serve Him in that place and I can do that being unemployed, I can do that as a taxi driver, or I can do that as a CEO. But wherever I am and whatever I'm doing I can try to know God better, to love Him and serve Him in this world and that's what I took with me into my next job, which was at Lenox China.
[00:17:20] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back early in your career, who was the first person that saw leadership potential in you and maybe set you on the track?
[00:17:30] Rich Stearns: I'll talk about two different people. The first one was a negative influence. My first job was with Gillette out of business school, Gillette in Boston, and I was in sales administration analyzing, 30 cent coupon promotions and things like that and I wanted to get into the brand management marketing side of things.
And so I worked with HR to set up some interviews and basically, it all came back that says, you're not cut out for this. You're not cut out for marketing. And I'll never forget the HR VP said, marketing is a young man's game and you're already two years behind, and I said, I'm 25. I said how young do I have to be?
I'm 25 years old. I'm too old? And he said we don't think you have what it takes. You can have a great career here in sales, but we don't think you have what it takes for marketing. And of course, I said I got an MBA from the Wharton Business School in Marketing. It's what I really want to do.
So, he was just this negative voice. You can't do it. You're going to fail. A few months later, I applied for this job at Parker Brothers Games, which was an entry-level marketing assistant job. And I went in to resign and he told me, you're making a big mistake. You're going to fail at that and you're going to regret this decision.
So anyway, off I went to Parker Brothers the next week, and seven years later, I was the CEO of Parker Brothers having risen through the marketing organization to do every job from vice president to executive vice president and into the president's job. So I left this negative guy and my first boss at Parker Brothers was an encourager.
He was a guy that said, you can do this. You can do this. He gave me assignments and he said, I trust you, you can do it. And he just believed in me. He sent me to New York to shoot TV commercials by myself. I'm 26 years old. I'm managing a director in an ad agency and the actors on stage, on set, and I'm shooting TV commercials of my own.
So he caused me to really believe that I could do it and that made a huge difference in my motivation and my outlook.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:19:27] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you've ever tackled?
[00:19:30] Rich Stearns: I can think of a few. When I was at Parker Brothers, think about this. It was a hundred-year-old board game company we all know, Monopoly, Clue, Sorry, Risk, those games. We used to jokingly call it tortured cardboard.
We're in the tortured cardboard business. They used to be called parlor games back in the 1890s. When nobody had television or radio or anything like that. And I had this idea to get the company into video games. And so, long story short, I had to sell the senior management. Remember I'm in my twenties.
And I had to sell the senior management - don't think of us as a board game company, think of us as a home entertainment company. In the future, games are going to be played on video screens. And these were the early days, the early Atari games. And so I persuaded them to give me a shot at it.
And again, long story short, within 18 months, I had hired 180 people. Engineers, software designers, game designers, technicians, marketing people, hired a whole separate sales force. And we doubled the revenues of a hundred-year-old company in about 18 months to two years. So Parker Brothers sales went from $125 million, I'd say in 1980 to $250 million by the end of 1982.
It was a huge challenge and pretty amazing. And that's ultimately how I ended up being promoted to CEO. But I would mention World Vision though, as well. So early on at World Vision as the new guy, I saw what the AIDS pandemic was doing to children and families in Africa.
And it was largely unknown in the United States. AIDS was a stigmatized disease of the homosexual community. Christians had wanted nothing to do with AIDS. And when I told my marketing team at World Vision that I thought we needed to really embrace this AIDS crisis, raise a lot of money and help these people. There were 13 million orphan children in Africa because of AIDS and many widows and lots of grandmothers that were raising their grandchildren because their parents had both died.
My marketing guy said, our donors won't give to this.
We're a G-rated ministry and AIDS is an R-rated issue.
This is about human sexuality and Christians are not interested in this.
And my marketing guy said, our donors won't give to this. We're a G-rated ministry and this is an R-rated issue. This is about human sexuality and Christians are not interested in this. In fact, he did a Barna survey to prove that he was right. And I think that survey showed that only 3% of evangelical Christians said they would definitely be willing to help children that had been orphaned by AIDS. And I said we're going to go there anyway we're going to do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do. And God help us if we remain silent, in the face of this huge crisis in Africa. And so, we did. We went after it and it was a huge challenge because I had to convince my own people to do it.
My own team didn't want to go there, and they were the first people I had to convince. And for about the next five years, every speech I gave, every person I talked to, it was about HIV and AIDS in Africa, what it was doing to children and families, and how World Vision was going to help. And I think we raised more than half a billion dollars over those years to respond to the AIDS pandemic.
[00:22:46] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that most of us learn the most from our failures. And so, my question is, if that's the truth, why are we all so afraid to fail?
[00:22:54] Rich Stearns: Tommy, one of my favorite quotes, and I don't even know who said this originally, but it goes like this, never trust a leader without a limp. And what that is basically saying is that a leader who has only known success is not completely formed as a leader.
It's often been said, we learn much more from failure than we do from success. It's also been said that it's harder to pass the test of prosperity than it is to pass the test of failure, and that prosperity can ruin people in many ways. And we all know how that can happen. You see it with Hollywood movie stars and other people that have risen to high positions but have a great fall ahead of them because of their arrogance and their pride.
But failure hurts, failure forces us to face our own shortcomings and limitations. But when we face our shortcomings and imitate limitations, we become more whole as people and more whole as leaders. We have more empathy for people that have failed, maybe people in the future who will work for us, who have failed at something or made a bad decision.
It makes us humbler as leaders and much more sympathetic to other people that are struggling at a particular point in their life. So, when I came back from being fired twice, I was a much more empathetic leader than I had been before. I was much more aware of the people around me and the struggles they might be having.
And much more aware of my role as a leader in trying to help them succeed, and help them overcome some of their shortcomings. And so yeah, I think failure is, it's trite to say, but it’s really character building and an important step in a leader's development I believe.
[00:24:43] Tommy Thomas: Sticking with that thought, we look across the landscape and we see a lot of leaders who have fallen and went down a wrong track. What do you think is the most dangerous behavior that you've seen derail leaders’ careers?
[00:24:56] Rich Stearns: I'd mention a couple of things. I think one is pride and arrogance, right? You get too big for your britches. You're bigger than life. We see this in some of the mega-church pastors that have failed, right? They're surrounded by fans who adulate them. Maybe they're surrounded by staff who are always praising them. Every word that comes out of their mouth is being praised and it can go to their head if you don't have an accountability group or if you don't have your feet rooted on the ground and you can start to get into riskier behavior and you start to think you're invincible and nobody can touch you. So I think that kind of arrogance can be part of it. This is related, but it doesn't always come with fame. I think leaders who become, I guess I'd say a lack of integrity, It's if you start as a leader.
I've seen leaders who go down this path of losing their integrity, starting to do shady things, telling lies in the workplace, and playing office politics in a negative way. Saying bad things about their coworkers.
Bending the truth or fudging the numbers or, telling the boss what he or she wants to hear instead of the truth. I've seen leaders who go down this path of losing their integrity, starting to do shady things, telling lies in the workplace, and playing office politics in a negative way.
Saying bad things about their coworkers and man, integrity is like an anchor. Partly because I was a Christian, but my non-negotiable as I was coming up through the ranks is I was always going to tell the truth to my boss, to the people I worked for, to the people that worked for me, that what you saw was what you got.
I was never going to deceive anybody. I was never going to hide anything. I was just going to be very transparent about the way things really were, whether it was the sales numbers or the market share or whatever it was. And when you commit to that, when you commit to that integrity, both relationally and in terms of the way you speak and the things you say, it's like an anchor that keeps you rooted in the right place.
It keeps you rooted. Yeah, that's often said if you don't tell any lies, you don't have to remember what lies you told. If you always tell the truth, you never have to get your story straight because you're not deceiving anybody and people trust you. I worked for family-run companies, Parker Brothers, when I started was still run by Mr. Parker. And then I went to work for Lennox and that was owned by a family, the Brown family in Kentucky. And when you work for a family-owned company, it's their money, right? It's their money. It's their company. And they put the highest value on integrity in their leaders because you're not just messing with some shareholder's money, you're messing with my family's money.
My family's legacy. And so, they put a very high value on integrity. And I learned a lot from the culture of those companies.
When you work for a family-owned company, it's their money. It's their company. And they put the highest value on integrity in their leaders because you're not just messing with some shareholder's money, you're messing with my family's money.
[00:27:44] Tommy Thomas: At what point in your corporate career did your Christian life begin to grab hold and inform you?
[00:27:52] Rich Stearns: I would say right from the beginning. I had a sense right from the beginning that I was a Christian.
I used to put a Bible on my desk. I wouldn't be an undercover Christian, so the people would know. I always think it's helpful for people in your workplace to know that you're a Christian because that way you're not as tempted to get involved with the dirty jokes and the workplace behavior that might be inappropriate the way you talk about people or to people.
And if you have a Bible on your desk and people know you're a Christian, it keeps you honest, right? These people know I'm a Christian. They're watching me. And I need to conduct myself in such a way that I don't bring shame to the Lord, right? So I always had a sense that I wanted to be a person of integrity in the workplace and that somehow would reflect positively on my faith and the Lord that I served.
And might lead to conversations about faith where, somebody might say, hey, what's different about you or, tell me more about your church and those kinds of things that happened over the years. So those, I think from very early on, I did say a few minutes ago though, that by the time I got to be CEO at 33, my work was so all-consuming, it was just an all-consuming thing that I was beginning to compartmentalize my faith.
It was still there, but it wasn't the first thing I thought about when I got up in the morning. It was like, I got to get to work. I got to do this. I got to do that. I've got to accomplish these things. And that's when, as I say, the Lord took me out of the game, put me on the bench, and said, hey, we need to get our priorities straight here.
Are you willing to put me first in your life? In fact, my leadership book, Tommy, that I wrote a couple of years ago the first real chapter is about surrendering as Christians. As leaders, our first job is to completely surrender our careers and our lives to the Lord. And once we've surrendered our career to the Lord, then it's his to do with as he pleases.
And we're there to just be good ambassadors to serve him, whether our career goes up or down or sideways, we can still be a good ambassador for the Lord.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:30:06] Tommy Thomas: I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with Rich as much as I have. I'm always amazed to learn about the early years of someone's life and how things turn out in the end. Next week we will continue to explore Rich’s leadership journey. He's been very candid and transparent in the conversation thus far. That will continue next week.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
World Vision
Books by Rich Stearns:
Lead Like It Matters to God: Values-Driven Leadership in a Success-Drive World by Richard Stearns
The Hole in Our Gospel 10th Anniversary Edition: What Does God Expect of Us? The Answer That Changed My Life and Might Just Change the World by Richard Stearns
Books by Rich and Reneé Stearns:
God’s Love For You Bible Storybook by Richard Stearns & Reneé Stearns
He Walks Among Us: Encounters with Chris in a Broken World by Richard Stearns & Reneé Stearns
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Barry Corey: It was almost like every 10 years I entered this new stage, but when I turned 20 and was captivated by higher education and scholarship, became an English major, that was a decade where I would say I lived this adventure of scholarship thinking and writing and growing and finishing all my degrees during my twenties. And then when I hit 30, Bob Cooley said, why don't you come and work for me? And that was my decade of apprenticeship when I feel like I was to be the apprentice of a master. And I spent really the better part of my thirties learning at the feet of someone who is really good at what he did and cared enough to allow me to apprentice under him. Scholarship in my twenties, apprenticeship in my thirties, and then it hit my forties. It was leadership.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:50] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Barry Corey, the president of Biola University. My friendship with Barry goes back almost 17 years when I led the search that brought Barry to Biola. That was an interesting search in many ways, but I believe that's the only search I've conducted where a trustee at the place where the candidate worked encouraged me to recruit him to another place.
But that's what happened. Barry was leading the Advancement Department at Gordon Conwell Seminary. When I launched the search, I sent the announcement to my good friend Joyce Godwin. Who, unbeknownst to me, was also a trustee at Gordon Conwell. And Joyce called me and told me of the excellent work that Barry was doing at Gordon Conwell and suggested that he'd make an outstanding president at Biola.
So, Barry, I guess at some level we have Joyce Godwin to thank for this chapter of your life.
[00:01:42] Barry Corey: If there's someone I want to thank, Joyce is a great one to do.
[00:01:47] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. Before I jump into this, you and I have discussed this before, and I think it was an interesting part of the search.
I've done searches where the board kind of rubber-stamped the search committee's work, and I've done searches where it was like a Senate confirmation hearing. And I think yours go to the end of the Senate confirmation hearing. Maybe it's a little bit of humor. Maybe tell our listeners your recollections of that?
[00:02:15] Barry Corey: Thank you for bringing that up. I don't have too much PTSD over that, I will say. When Biola University launched its search for the eighth president it was following the 25-year presidency of my predecessor, who was just an outstanding leader, Clyde Cook. And I think that meant that most of these trustees had never been through a search process before.
The only ones that had would have been the ones that had been on there for 25 years or more. And to that, I will add that in then the 100-year history of Biola, 115-16 years now they had never hired from the outside. They always cultivated their presence from within. I was 45 years old, so I was rather young.
I was at a seminary, not at a university. I came from a theological tradition that Biola needed to be thinking a little bit more about. I wasn't nationally known squat. There were just lots of reasons why their due diligence needed to be pretty carefully done.
So, I saw it as, let's go through all the hard conversations before the decision so that after the decision, those questions don't come up. So, they left no stone unturned. And I actually think that's a good process for boards to go through, to think through in great detail prior to the conversation about making an offer.
[00:03:36] Tommy Thomas: I totally agree. I thought they saw you in multiple venues. They saw you in the boardroom, they saw you at dinner and breakfast. And I just think it takes a while to get to know somebody. I'm a fan of that. I know it was probably a little bit painful at the moment, but I like that.
I applaud boards that take that kind of due diligence. Before I dig into your professional career, take me back to your childhood and what was it like to grow up in the Corey family?
[00:04:02] Barry Corey: I was one of two kids, the younger of two. My sister is a year and a half older than I am. And we grew up in a very love-filled home.
My father was a Pentecostal preacher in a hardscrabble town outside of Boston, Massachusetts.
And by the time I was six, he went into some kind of supervisory role over the denomination. We had a lot of love in our family. My father was, I don't know the best way to put it, a little bit more of a mystic than a cleric.
He just had this way of seeing people. What they needed to be seen. And he would equate it as being prompted by God to love everyone he came in contact with, even if he wasn't loved back. And that's why probably his theme verse for his life was Matthew 10:40, where Jesus says, whoever receives you receives me and whoever sees me receives the one who sent me.
So, there are a lot of awkward moments, Tommy, in my life when he would hug the Islamic gas station attendant. I would slink down in the backseat of the Pontiac Bonneville, or he would pray over the counter with the Armenian cobbler. Or one time he had the audacity to hold Ruben's face in his hand.
Ruben was this Jewish furniture merchant, and he just told him he loved him. And all those moments were awkward to me. But later on in life, as I reflected back, he wasn't being weird. He was actually being receivable, which Jesus says in Matthew 10:40, we are to be. A little snapshot of my family.
[00:05:30] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like for you and your sister?
My parents did an unorthodox thing and allowed me to go to an all-boys Catholic preparatory school.
[00:05:31] Barry Corey: High school years were pretty good. We were active in our youth group. My parents did an unorthodox thing and allowed me to go to an all-boys Catholic preparatory school called St. John's in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts. Had a great education there. The great contributions that Catholics have made to education and virtues and morals and the values that needed to be embedded in education.
So that kind of set me on a bit of a trajectory to realize that faith-based education is a good thing. So, by the time I was thinking about going to college, I looked at a number of faith-based colleges and ended up at a midsize liberal arts college connected to our denomination in the middle of the country.
[00:06:17] Tommy Thomas: How did you decide on your major or was it pretty determined?
[00:06:22] Barry Corey: No, I went to be a Bible major, but I had as many stories as other students would say, I had a professor who saw something in me. I didn't see it myself. And he was an English professor. He said, hey, you seem to be a halfway decent writer.
Why don't you take another class in composition and rhetoric and then in literature? And I ended up I think falling in love with literature as a major and I became an English major because of the professor who believed in me was an English professor. Now, if he was a physics professor, that might not have been the same case for me.
Being an English major was good preparation for being a critical thinker, good writer, articulate speaker, problem solver, and team builder.
But that was the reason why people would ask, what are you going to do with your English major? And I didn't really know. But, God makes crooked roads straight, and I see in retrospect how that major was so preparatory for how I can be a critical thinker, a good writer, an articulate speaker, a problem solver, and a team builder. So much is wrapped up in being a literature or English major that really pays dividends in all aspects of life, and I tell English majors this at Biola University today.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:07:29] Tommy Thomas: How does an English major get into fundraising?
[00:07:34] Barry Corey: I made a decision when I was 19 years old that this transformational experience I had at a Christian college if God so willed, I would enter that as a career and went on and pursued a master's degree in American Studies at Boston College, got hired by a former professor of mine who became the president of a small Christian college outside of Philadelphia, just where I cut my teeth on.
Higher education administration. And part of it was a process of elimination. I didn't have an MBA, wasn't a business major. So, entering higher education through the finance channel was not an option. I didn't really think I had the scholarship aptitude to be a professor. I didn't actually think I was smart enough to be one.
And I ruled out doing a Ph.D. in English Literature or American Literature. And so, I eliminated that, a few other things. Maybe by default the advancement side, I really enjoyed because it was articulating the vision of Christian higher education to those who would become investors to make it possible for students to attend.
And I defaulted there, both at the school where I was working in Philadelphia, and then ended up being mentored by an extraordinary leader at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, and that was where I spent 16 years of my life. The first half of my first 16 years of my real serious post-doctoral career, I did a Ph.D. in Higher Education Administration at Boston College.
I think that's probably what happened, and I started in fundraising at Gordon Conwell, but actually ended up as the Academic Dean of the Faculty and Vice President for Education. So, I got over the academic side, but in a rather unorthodox way.
[00:09:32] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back to your first management job when you actually had to manage somebody, what do you remember?
[00:09:41] Barry Corey: I think I probably learned through a lot of mistakes I made as a young leader. Kept a lot of notes on what I did right and what I did wrong and realize I probably wanted to treat people the way I wanted to be treated. To see my gifts, be honest with me about where I have shortcomings, and help me be more prepared for what's next.
[00:10:03] Tommy Thomas: At what time did you, I guess in your career, did you become, I'm going to say comfortable in your professional skin or your professional voice? When did you realize that maybe I have the makings of a leader?
[00:10:19] Barry Corey: I don't know. I think I wanted to be a decision-maker. I didn't know where that would lead me.
Bob Cooley was a futurist, and he made a deal that if I started working at Gordon Conwell Seminary, even though I wasn't reporting to him, he would mentor me.
And there were those that maybe saw some things in me, like I mentioned earlier, Tommy, that I didn't necessarily see in myself. I had three remarkable mentors, one being my father, who I mentioned earlier, one being Bob Cooley, the longtime president of Gordon Conwell Seminary, who was a futurist, and he made a deal that if I started working at Gordon Conwell Seminary, even though I wasn't reporting to him, he would mentor me.
And he did that until the day he died, and Leighton Ford and I eulogized him at his funeral just two years ago in Charlottesville. For 30 years he had been my mentor. And then his successor was a guy named Walt Kaiser. Many know Walt Kaiser as one of the leading Old Testament theologians.
Being mentored by good leaders was something that I sought out and something today I feel I have an obligation to give out.
He became the president of Gordon Conwell and in a very different way, he mentored me also. So, I think being mentored by good leaders was something that I sought out and something today I feel I have an obligation to give out.
[00:11:25] Tommy Thomas: So you say Dr. Cooley was a futurist. I remember hearing him speak at your inaugural inauguration.
It was amazing. What does a futurist look like in his life?
[00:11:39] Barry Corey: I think he could see things coming that others couldn't see. And he, I think, helped many of us look beyond the horizons of reality at what might be some new ways in which education is going to be delivered or boards are going to be governing, or faculty are going to be researching and teaching.
He could just see things that we couldn't see. And he was a great help and he cared enough that he was willing to spend a lot of time with those under his tutelage, like me, and invest of himself. And if I look back at my own life, Tommy, because I know you're talking a lot about leadership here.
It was almost like every 10 years I entered this new stage, but when I turned 20 and was captivated by higher education and scholarship, became an English major, that was a decade where I would say I lived this adventure of scholarship thinking and writing and growing and finishing all my degrees during my twenties. And then when I hit 30, Bob Cooley said, why don't you come and work for me? And that was my decade of apprenticeship when I feel like I was to be the apprentice of a master. And I spent really the better part of my thirties learning at the feet of someone who is really good at what he did and cared enough to allow me to apprentice under him.
When I hit 30, Bob Cooley said, “Why don't you come and work for me?” And that was my decade of apprenticeship when I feel like I was to be the apprentice of a master.
Scholarship in my twenties, apprenticeship in my thirties, and then it hit my forties. It was leadership. I became the academic dean at a seminary. And then a few years later became the president of Biola University when I was 45 and, I think the scholarship and the apprenticeship prepared me for the leadership that I was experiencing in my forties, starting new things.
And I just felt God had paved the way through people who believed in me and took chances on me, even when I had stumbled along the way. And then when I hit my fifties, I thought, it's time for me to start paying it forward. Maybe it's the decade of mentorship from scholarship to apprenticeship, to leadership, to mentorship.
Who am I investing in the rising generation so I can pay it forward for those who invested in me? They had nothing to gain by investing in me, and I had everything to gain. So now I'm in my 60s, and it's a new ship.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:14:01] Tommy Thomas: I know your time at Biola and Gordon Conwell, for the most part, people would say, man, Barry's been riding a crest, but I'm sure there have been times that tested your mettle. Can you take us into one of those, and how did you come out of it?
[00:14:16] Barry Corey: I'm writing a book now on the burdens of leadership which are burdens that top leaders of organizations uniquely bear. And that organization could be a Fortune 500 company, it could be a military unit, it could be the senior partner of a law firm, it could be a pastor of a church, or president of a university, or an owner of a family business. But it's where you have on the organizational structure, that one box at the top that person occupies. And when I stepped into this role as a leader of an organization, Biola has about a thousand employees, 500 students, and a 200-plus million-dollar budget.
It was far bigger than anything I had ever experienced before. And I just realized that though I had worked alongside leaders, and I'd heard them talk about burdens. I finally understood them, not just intellectually, but existentially. And so that's the long lead into your question, Tommy.
And there have been some real burdens that I've had to bear in this role. One of them is just this burden of loneliness. You're never alone, but you're the only one in your organization that has no peer. And so, friendships are different. The ways in which you relate to people are different and wrestle through that sometimes through trial and error.
I've had situations where I was the recipient of legal lawsuits and litigation and just those kinds of burdens that come with leadership. There's the burden of surprises that you don't see things coming and when COVID came it was not anticipated. And of the 3,141 counties in America, only one county, Los Angeles County, where we are, completely shuttered every college and university in the county for 18 months, and we just couldn't get around that.
And that was a tough season for us, but leaders have to be able to say we're going to get through this. We're going to overcome it. I've had sleepless nights and stressful times, but you have to live in this balance of reality and hope and communicate that to your own constituents that there is hope without being Pollyanna-ish. But this is also the reality of where we are. And that's another burden we bear is communicating hope with reality to our communities. That we're going to get through this. We're going to be strong on the other side. But sometimes it's hard to even believe it yourself.
[00:16:51] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned the loneliness factor and I'm thinking of the board-chair-president relationship. Does that relationship alleviate that or do you still have an isolation piece there?
[00:17:04] Barry Corey: No, I think it does, Tommy. Thanks for asking that. There have been four board chairs since I've been at Biola University.
And, on a related note, I've often joked to say I'm in my fourth presidency of the same institution because the institution changes during the times that you're there. Now that I've entered my 17th year at Biola there are challenges that I'm facing now that I didn't face then, but the board chair-president relationship is vital and every board chair is going to have a different definition of what that looks like. And I thank God we've had four great chairs that were the right chairs for the right season that we are in. This morning I just finished an over an hour-long conversation, one-on-one with our board chair. And every two weeks, we cover the ground, but some of it's small talk, some it's how you're doing, and some of it's preparing for board meetings and others are like, what are the stressful issues that you're dealing with right now and how can we help? So, I think those Presidents or CEOs that I know have less communication with their board chairs. I just think they're in a tougher place.
And I would just say I'm just so thankful for the board chair that Biola has and our ability to just be in regular contact with each other. He also chairs the committee on the president. At Biola University, which is the care and feeding of the president.
And to a certain degree, you have to be able to talk honestly about some of the challenges that you're facing, but I will say, Tommy, that the board chair is not like your spiritual accountability partner. There's got to be those, including your own spouse in your life where you just let it all hang out.
These are the things that I'm struggling with and dealing with. And these are my own depravity and everything else. So that's really not what the board chair needs to be. You need to be honest enough about the stresses of work and sometimes the stresses of home. But I would be careful not to substitute that with your own spiritual, encouraging, accountable brother or sister.
[00:19:10] Tommy Thomas: 16 years, four chairs. So do y'all have a four-year term limit on the chair or has it just turned out that way?
[00:19:16] Barry Corey: It's turned out that way. I think six years, so I inherited the final two years of the previous chair, and we're in the first few years of the current chair.
[00:19:30] Tommy Thomas: All right. Do you and your cabinet create the agenda for the board meeting or how do you do it at Biola?
[00:19:39] Barry Corey: Yeah, as it relates to board meetings, we have board meetings three times a year and we've made some changes. I think there are some essential dimensions of a board meeting that we have really been helped by.
This might not be true for every nonprofit, but it certainly is true for us. One is that we spend a lot of time on board education. An educated board is an effective board. So, when I started at Biola, there would be four one-day meetings a year. And it was just pretty much, get through the agenda, lots of show and tell if there's a crisis, how are we going to deal with it?
And then, we're in Southern California. So, people who wanted to be on the road by four o'clock, so they didn't get in all the traffic. Now we have three, two-day meetings. And I think two-day meetings are so important because it allows some of the discussion happening one day to be reflected on overnight.
A governing body is dealing with and responsible for two things. One is financial solvency and the other is missional fidelity.
And sometimes with that gestation period or whatever, it's fermenting in your own mind overnight. It allows you to think about things and maybe not rush through issues as much. And so, we spent a lot of time on board education sessions and spent a lot of time on what are the major accomplishments that we need to make sure that the board as a governing body, not an administrative body, but a governing body is dealing with and the board ultimately is, in my mind, responsible for two things. One is financial solvency and the other is missional fidelity. Sometimes you have missional fidelity, but if you're not financially solvent, a lot of good that's going to do sometimes you get financial solvency, but if you're not missionally faithful, then you're a bit like a rudderless ship.
So, everything in our board conversations ultimately comes down to that. How are we staying missionally faithful? Sometimes that means dealing with legal aspects that are happening in our culture, in our state in Washington. Legislation that's going through. We're in a pretty bright blue state here in California, and we're a conservative Christian university, and we have to operate differently in many ways than if we were a conservative Christian university in a more sympathetic state.
So, the board is so key to helping us deal with these kinds of missional fidelity and fiscal solvency issues.
[00:21:55] Tommy Thomas: Does your board get involved in the overall risk management of the university, or do you keep that at the cabinet level?
[00:22:01] Barry Corey: On a micro way, we keep it within the administration on risk management.
On a macro level, the board is intimately involved in this because there are certainly viable threats to our business model that would be considered under the category of risk management. And that could be, how are we operating within our budget and how are we stewarding our resources and our quasi-endowment for long-term sustainability?
How are we anticipating legislation or legal action that might jeopardize our deeply held convictions? Those are all risk management issues. So at the macro level, the board is very involved in those conversations. But as it relates to should we have skateboards on campus? The board's not.
[00:22:49] Tommy Thomas: All right.
That's good. Okay. So would you say your board is, if the Carver model is on one end of the continuum and whatever might be on the other end of the continuum, where do y'all operate on that as a board?
[00:23:06] Barry Corey: We are somewhat of a policy-driven board, but I think policy becomes a little bit of the fallback.
Let's not spend so much time developing policy that we're not thinking about our own future. And so, we probably have a balance on our board between, do we have the right policies in place? And are we dreaming and thinking about what kind of board we need to be in the future and what kind of university we need to be in the future that doesn't lock us into a kind of strict board parameters that prohibit us from maybe letting our imaginations go and basically thinking about what a new wineskin looks like at Biola. And I've often thought about this, is maybe a bit of a tangent, Tommy, but I think it's germane.
Boards and Presidents can make two historical mistakes:
They can be nostalgic – this is the way we have always done it.
They can be amnesic – they forget about their founding principles.
And that is I think that there are one of two historical mistakes that presidents can make, and boards can make. They can be nostalgic. Basically saying, hey, the way we've always done things is in essence who we are, therefore we're going to keep on doing things the same way. And that can lead really to being irrelevant or maybe mistaking that your methods are synonymous with your mission.
So being nostalgic can be a real detriment to future thinking leadership of a board and of a president. But another mistake that presidents and boards can make, it's not just being nostalgic, but it's being amnesic. And by amnesic, they forget about their founding principles. They forget about their values and virtues and why was the institution established in the first place, and going back to the founders' vision and trying to embody and encase that. I spent three days undercover at a well-known college that has been around for 177 years or so. And they do this well.
They haven't wavered from their founding mission, and I think that's what's made them so strong today. Because I think colleges and universities need not to blend in, but stand out and they don't need to be indistinguishable. They need to be distinguishable. And part of that is like, why did we start in the first place?
And how are boards and presidents talking about that founding vision and founding mission in a way that keeps the board focused on the distinctiveness of Biola University that our world needs more than ever before?
+++++++++++++++++
[00:25:36] Tommy Thomas: What's the most creative thing y'all have done at Biola that worked?
[00:25:41] Barry Corey: We took a chance a number of years ago of really expanding our cinema and media arts program. We're located close to Hollywood, and we thought, we need four things. We need students to come here and not go elsewhere where they're not going to get a solid Christian-based education.
Two, we need a visionary dean that is the leader that will take us there so that it comes out of the industry. Three is we need faculty that have great experience in the industry but are committed to the virtues of Biola University. And four, we needed a studio building to encompass this. And, by God's grace, this is all happening.
Our program is growing like crazy. It's now ranked in the top 20 by variety in the country. And we just got like far and away, our largest gift. More than twice what we've ever received in Biola's history. And that was to help us build this building. And we're now going to have a building as part of the Snyder School of Cinema and Media Arts, the Snyder family being the founding family of In-N-Out Burger, who many people know, located here in Southern California honoring the Snyder family and their commitment to not just to media but their commitment to innovation, to opportune entrepreneurship, and certainly the commitment to the gospel.
[00:26:57] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior that you've observed that derailed leaders’ careers?
[00:27:06] Barry Corey: Let me think about that for a second. I certainly feel like where I try to protect myself is to try not to think too highly of myself, but more highly of the office that I hold. And I think that sense of equating your own self-worth with your position and again, the ego and can get wrapped up in that can be very unhealthy to leaders.
And it often leads to slacking off on moral and ethical standards because you think you deserve something. So I think that is it. I even try to do small things, Tommy, like I try not to talk about my vice presidents or my faculty or my board chair. They're not mine.
They're the university's faculty, the university's vice presidents, the university's board, and the university's board chair. I even try not to say, come to my office to somebody else, they come to the president's office. It's an office that I have been asked to steward during this season and be a good custodian of it.
But when I start thinking it's mine, I just think, in my mind at least, unhealthy fruit can be born out of that. So that's one bit of advice I keep on reminding myself, that I am a steward of this office for the season that God has called me to it. And I will say a little story about that, we used to have this big portrait outside of our residence hall of my predecessor, Clyde Cook, 25 years, just a beloved president.
And I'd walk down there sometimes. And I'd say, who's that? And they say, I don't know. And I don't say that to disparage my predecessor. I say that to remind myself that, four years after I'm gone, rotate through one class of students. No one's going to know who I am. So, live faithfully the years that you've been entrusted with.
Do the best you can. Stay missionally faithful, be innovative, take some risks, but just realize that you and the title you hold are not synonymous.
I've got a bookmark on my desk that says, imagine what you would try if you knew you couldn't fail.
[00:29:14] Tommy Thomas: If it's true that most of us learn from our failures more than we learn from successes, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:29:24] Barry Corey: I think for the same reason I tell students, it's just because you fail doesn't mean you're a failure. And I've got a bookmark on my desk that says, imagine what you would try if you knew you couldn't fail. So I do think that there's a fine line. If everything you try doesn't work out, then it sounds like the board needs a new president.
But I do think if you're so risk-averse, then you're not stewarding well the office that you've been called to hold.
[00:29:51] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back and tell a younger version of yourself something, what would you tell him?
[00:29:59] Barry Corey: Oh, you know what? I probably wouldn't tell him anything. I'm afraid if I told him something, then he might be more risk-averse. I'm just glad no older version of me told the younger version of me anything. Are there mistakes that I made that I wished I hadn't and things I would have avoided?
Yeah, probably, but I like looking back at the crooked roads that I didn't see coming. And how Jesus and Isaiah say that God makes crooked roads straight and that which looks like it's twisting and turning when I'm going through it in the rearview mirror, it all seems to make sense. And I guess that's just providence.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Next week will be the 100th episode of NextGen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas. When I began the podcast, my podcast mentor told me that there was bad news and good news about early podcast episodes. The bad news is that the early episodes won't be very good. The good news is that you won't have very many listeners either.
I agree that my part of the early podcast was not that good. It took me a while to get comfortable in front of the microphone and hear my voice in a recording.
I'm so grateful to Bob Lonac, Jim Lowschieder, Holly Moore, Christine Talbot, David Dockery, and the other early guests who endeared my learning curve. I'm also grateful to Bob Tiede and his blog Leading with Questions. Bob has taught me so much about asking good interview questions. I do think the quality has improved a little. Hardly a week goes by that I don't receive an email from someone telling me how much they enjoyed a recent episode.
Although our target audience is NextGen Leaders, I'm continually amazed at how many seasoned Board Chairs and CEOs tell me that they're regular listeners. So, thank you, both guests and listeners, for helping us make it to Episode 100. I'm looking forward to next week.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Biola University
Biola University - About President Barry H. Corey
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Barry Corey’s LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began in episode 95, with Dr. Alvin Sanders, the CEO of World Impact. One thing from that episode that stood out to me was Alvin's description of how he and his senior staff use the idea of a Circle of Voices and making major decisions. If you didn't hear that episode, just that idea alone is probably worth the time you'll spend listening to it. In today's episode, Alvin will be sharing his experience and spreading of board governance. Let's pick up that conversation.
[00:00:38] Tommy Thomas: Let's go over to the board relationship. I just think that's so critical in the life of a nonprofit.
And we could start in a number of places, but let's start with the board chair. When you think of the best board chair you've ever served under or observed, give me some words and phrases that describe that person.
[00:00:55] Alvin Sanders: I'm happy to report that it's my present board chair, Carl LaBarbara.
He is someone who's very committed to the ministry with his time, talent, and treasure in a deep way, in a deep sense. And he's also committed to me and my personal well-being. So, I think those are the things that you look for in a board chair.
[00:01:17] Tommy Thomas: I had the privilege of meeting Carl probably, I don't know, 10 or maybe 15 years ago. And I remember the afternoon in his home, he talked a lot about board governance. As I remember, he was a big fan of the Carver model. Are y'all a 10 on the Carver model, or have you operated an eight or nine?
[00:01:32] Alvin Sanders: We're a 12 and a half. We are off the scale because of Carl's training. And I am a dyed-in-the-wool Carver policy governance Kool-Aid drinker.
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Did you have knowledge of the Carver Model before you came into the CEO role?
[00:01:49] Alvin Sanders: I knew of it at Evangelical Free Church because we used it. But, to me, that was the one-on-one level. And working with Carl and World Impact, I feel like I'm a grad student in it now.
[00:02:02] Tommy Thomas: Take me into your and Carl's relationship. How often do y'all get together or meet or talk and what does that look like?
[00:02:12] Alvin Sanders: We have a standing phone call, at 1 p.m. Eastern, 10 a.m. Pacific, every Monday. And, we don't necessarily do it every time, but it's there. And then if we need it, we talk to each other.
If not, then we move forward. But usually, we talk anywhere from one to four times a month. And we just check in and see how each other is doing personally. I give him updates on relevant things that he needs to know about from the organization's perspective, and then he gives insights and contributions to what he feels we need to be considering as an organization as well.
But I think the most critical relationship in the organization is between the CEO and the board chair.
[00:03:02] Tommy Thomas: So how close of a friend can the CEO be to the board chair? Where's that balance?
[00:03:09] Alvin Sanders: You at least need to like each other. And that sounds silly, but I've known some CEOs and board chairs that don't like each other. You don't have to be best friends. Like I wouldn't say Carl and I are best friends by any means but Carl and I enjoy each other's company. And if I wasn't CEO and if he wasn't board chair, we would still be two people who would get together and hang out with one another.
You know what I mean? Yeah. So, you have to have a strong relationship at least to the point where you like each other to the extent that you enjoy each other's company.
[00:03:44] Tommy Thomas: Take me into your agenda for your board meetings. Do you set those, or do you and Carl collaborate?
[00:03:52] Alvin Sanders: Yes, me and Carl collaborate.
[00:03:55] Tommy Thomas: Do you have term limits for your members, and do you have term limits for your board chair?
[00:04:07] Alvin Sanders: No, we're contrarian that we have an annual signup every year. So if you're asked to be a board member, a river of life, I'm not there anymore at World Impact.
We asked you to serve for one year. And then if everything went well, we asked you to serve for another year. And the result has been, Carl's probably been a board member for 25 years. And then there are other people who were board members for only a year because things didn't work out well.
So we like that because it gives you the flexibility to keep on strong board members for as long as you need to. Because to me, it never made sense. You've been a great board member. Oh, it's been three years. You got to rotate off. Why? If it works for their life and it works for the life of the organization, there's no reason to rotate people off.
And then there have been people who've served for a couple of years and then they said, Alvin, I got to take this year off, and then they come back. So that's been our philosophy.
[00:05:10] Tommy Thomas: How do y'all identify new board members?
[00:05:15] Alvin Sanders: It's mainly me asking, first working the networks that the board has, some other people that they may know that may want to be a part of World Impact.
It's me working the networks of those I know and my colleagues. It's really just working networks of folk looking for the types of people that may be interested in serving on the World Impact Board.
[00:05:41] Tommy Thomas: What kind of advice are you giving somebody that calls you next week and says they've been asked to join a board of XYZ nonprofit? What questions are you telling them they need to get answered?
[00:05:53] Alvin Sanders: They need to ask the board chair and the CEO, first, I would never talk to either one of them. I would talk to both of them at the same time. And the first question I would ask them is, what's your philosophy? Because 90% of boards don't have a clue what their philosophy is on board leadership.
So what's your philosophy on board leadership? What's my expected contribution of time, talent, and treasure to the board? So those would be the two major things that I would ask.
[00:06:33] Tommy Thomas: I'm asking people these days about bringing younger people onto boards. And philosophically, do you have a position on that? And then I'll ask a follow-up.
[00:06:46] Alvin Sanders: Yes, we try to, our board, we try to hold it at nine, because we think a smaller board is better for getting things done. And I think in terms of thirds a third of our board, we want gender diversity, a third of our board, we want age diversity, a third of our board, we want racial diversity.
And then we want half and half, what I would say, marketplace people. These are business folk, and then the other half ministry people. Because if you have all marketplace people, the ministry gets lost. It's been my experience. And if you have all ministry people, the business of running the organization gets lost and it loses knowledge and expertise.
So that's my philosophy of how you have you bring a board together. But you definitely need people especially since I just read the other day that millennials now are the most dominant generation numbers-wise. It's no longer Baby Boomers. It's never been my generation, Gen X. We're the forgotten generation, I think.
Nobody gives a rip about Gen X, but Millennials now are it and you're just being silly if you don't have Millennials on your board
[00:07:58] Tommy Thomas: How do y'all onboard at World Impact, new board members?
[00:08:05] Alvin Sanders: Usually if somebody is passed along to me or to Carl or whoever, Carl and I do an informal vetting of that person and check what their interest level is. Then Carl by himself takes them through a formal board vetting.
Then if they pass that test, we bring them in to do a preview. Before they make a commitment, Hey, won't you just come in and sit in on a board meeting and see what you think, then after the preview, Carl and I sit down with them and field any questions, concerns, or comments they may have.
And then if they're wanting to be part of the board, then the next board meeting that they come in we'll vote on them.
++++++++++++++++
[00:08:56] Tommy Thomas: You've probably got a small enough board that you don't need executive committees. Do y'all ever have a use for an executive committee?
[00:09:04] Alvin Sanders: Carver policy frowns against subcommittees, so we don't form them unless we absolutely positively have to.
[00:09:15] Tommy Thomas: And what about executive session? Does your staff join you for part and then y'all dismiss the staff for more sensitive matters? What's y'all's take on that?
[00:09:25] Alvin Sanders: If there's an executive session, I'm not in there. In our philosophy, it's board only. Only the board calls executive session and that means no staff in the room.
[00:09:35] Tommy Thomas: What about the board meeting? Do you bring your cabinet to the meeting? Do they present or what does that look like?
[00:09:46] Alvin Sanders: The person who usually makes an appearance either by video or in person at some point is my chief operating officer. When we talk about the financial portion. Other than that, the executive team only comes in as needed.
[00:09:59] Tommy Thomas: How do you or Carl draw a quiet quiet board member into the conversation?
[00:10:11] Alvin Sanders: I don't know if I have any. I'm trying to think. We have great dialogue and discussion and everybody seems to contribute. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I don't think anybody sits on the sidelines because of the understood expectation of Carver. Like when you go through the screening process and we talk to people, we've let people know this is not you know a sit-back board.
There are monitoring reports you have to read. We want you to contribute. We want you to express yourself. And so we built a culture of collaboration and contribution that we don't really have any quiet board members.
[00:10:51] Tommy Thomas: What about strategic planning? Is your board involved in that under the Carver Model?
[00:10:56] Alvin Sanders: No. My team and I lead the staff and the organization in the strategic planning process.
[00:11:05] Tommy Thomas: What did that look like last time around?
[00:11:09] Alvin Sanders: We are big into the objectives and key results system. Where you set which, it started with Peter Drucker and management by objectives.
And then there have been several sort of offshoots of that, but that's the foundation. We utilize the offshoot that was started in the tech sector. Where you listen, you list organizational-wide objectives and organizational annual objectives, and then each team then quarterly writes an objective for their team and the key results from that objective, which is connected to the larger overarching organizational objective.
[00:11:54] Tommy Thomas: How does a CEO evaluation work under y'all's system?
[00:11:59] Alvin Sanders: They have an executive session. They have an annual objective section, but every quarter I have to submit what's called a monitoring report, which is based on the executive limitations, which are found in our handbook which are policies in which the board has said, Alvin, these are the policies.
And then you need to report on several of these at each meeting. In fact, today, because our board meeting is coming up next week, the big lion's share of my day today is working on our monitoring reports which I will submit to them so then they can read through them. And then next week we can have any discussions of whether they think I'm in compliance or out of compliance.
[00:12:52] Tommy Thomas: Okay, so that happens quarterly then?
[00:12:54] Alvin Sanders: It does.
[00:12:57] Tommy Thomas: How have y'all handled financial accountability? A lot of boards are a little hesitant to ask hard questions sometimes. What does that look like at World Impact?
[00:13:08] Alvin Sanders: Every quarter, one of my monitoring reports is called EL 4.
For financial condition and activities where every quarter I report on our financial condition. It's three, four pages of things that I need to report on concerning our finances, and then the board members look over it and then if they have any questions, we discuss and analyze them.
[00:13:32] Tommy Thomas: Under your model, how does the board get involved in either risk management or risk mitigation or do they?
[00:13:40] Alvin Sanders: That's a policy that I have to report on. Basically, they have questions about the policies around risk management and mitigation. And I report on them, and then they have a chance to read and respond. And they tell me whether I'm in compliance or not compliance with their expectation of me.
[00:13:59] Tommy Thomas: How do you and your senior team look at risk management or risk mitigation? Is that something that y'all discuss on an annual basis or a quarterly basis?
[00:14:09] Alvin Sanders: It depends on how you define risk management and mitigation, but we would like to think that we're trying to be on top of those things and ahead of those things before they become major hassles or issues.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:14:20] Tommy Thomas: And you mentioned early on your board member time, talent, and treasure. So you have the fundraising question with a prospective board member adequately before they join?
[00:14:31] Alvin Sanders: Yes, we ask all our board members to contribute something. We don't put a number on it, but we want to say that all of our board members give to our organization.
We believe that's a big deal. And we let the board member decide how much they want to contribute.
[00:14:48] Tommy Thomas: What does fundraising look like for you? Do you leverage your board for fundraising, or is that kind of, once they give, do they?
[00:15:01] Alvin Sanders: No, we ask our board members to be actively involved in connecting us with people who may vibe with the mission of the organization and be willing to contribute revenue towards us being a success. We definitely involve our boards.
[00:15:17] Tommy Thomas: Let's maybe close out a little bit with succession planning. At what point should a board and a CEO begin to think about succession planning?
[00:15:27] Alvin Sanders: All the time, from day one. One of the things that I've tried to instill, and since being President of World Impact since 2017, is to build a leadership pipeline. In every one of our major areas, I call it who's your bus person.
If the bus comes by and hits you, it kills you in your dying breath, who are you going to say, such and such to take my place. Ideally, we'd like to see there be at least two to three internal candidates who could take the place of the person who's leading that particular area. And in my case, I would like to think that, anyone on my executive team could have the ability to step into being a CEO if at the very least for an interim time until the board could find someone else to be my replacement.
So my bus people, if you're on my team, you're a bus person for me.
[00:16:31] Tommy Thomas: And this may be hypothetical for you or you've probably seen it in other organizations, but when the CEO decides it's time to retire or move on, what kind of time should there be between that announcement and the actual end date?
[00:16:48] Alvin Sanders: For me, I think ideally, whoever the CEO is, has identified someone who they want to follow them. And you announce it like a year before it happens. You say, hey, I'm riding off into the sunset. We've identified such and such to be my replacement. And then you have a quarterly phase-out.
That's how I'd like to go out. I think I have a lot more years left than me, Tommy, but when it's time to go, that's the way I'd like to do it.
[00:17:27] Tommy Thomas: What about the outgoing person sticking around as an advisor or an emeritus president? What's been your experience or observation there?
[00:17:36] Alvin Sanders: That's exactly the setup I have at the old church that I planted.
I haven't been Pastor at Riverside Church since 2007, but my wife and I still go there, and my family still goes there, and I'm Pastor Emeritus, and it works marvelously. If the pastor who follows you or the leader who follows you wants you there. That's a huge if. And then you all have a great relationship where boundaries are set.
And I know when to stick my nose into things and when not to stick my nose into things. And I see myself as a reference book, when you need to use me, pull me off the shelf and use me. When you need to seek advice, it's all driven by the present leader. I stay in my lane.
So as the emeritus person, you have to stay in your lane in order for this to work. And the leader who succeeds you, they have to be confident enough in their own skin. That they're not threatened by you being there and they're comfortable in bringing you into the leadership situations to speak into it.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:18:52] Tommy Thomas: Occasionally I get to speak to boards about succession planning and I often talk about the departing leader. And I guess one of my observations is that generally, the departing leader has probably more of his or her identity tied up in the CEO role than they would like to admit. How do you help a man or woman in that case?
[00:19:15] Alvin Sanders: I don't know if you can to be quite honest. It took me probably three years to remove pastor as an identity marker from me when I moved from the River of Life Church to the EFCA. And really, it's a journey of spiritual maturity.
At least it was for me. To say my identity is in Christ and then Christ sends me on different assignments, but it's all His church. It's all His organization. It's not mine. It's His. And that's the lesson that took me three years to learn. So that when I transitioned from the EFCA to World Impact, it was a much easier transition because I saw it more as my identity is in Christ, and I feel like God's changing my assignment, so I'm okay.
[00:20:07] Tommy Thomas: Did Bill or anybody at your national office, did they come alongside you, or was there any help offered to you during that three years of rough water or were you on your own?
[00:20:18] Alvin Sanders: They didn't know it. Oh, okay. I didn't tell them. I didn't tell them. It was just a personal struggle of my own.
But I'm sure they would have if I would have let them know.
[00:20:35] Tommy Thomas: What haven't I asked you about board service and CEO relationships that you think my listeners need to hear?
[00:20:43] Alvin Sanders: I don't know. You've been pretty thorough, man. You should have given me some pre-interview questions.
[00:20:51] Tommy Thomas: You don't need any pre-interview questions.
[00:20:52] Alvin Sanders: You made my brain do it out my ear. You've asked some pretty thorough things. I think we've covered the gamut of it, really.
[00:21:00] Tommy Thomas: Okay, let me close with one then and here again, this goes back to the board chair, somebody calls you and they've been asked to, as they usually do move up to the chair role, they've probably been in line for a while.
What are you telling them that whatever you do, be sure you…
[00:21:21] Alvin Sanders: You won't rise to the occasion. You will sink to the level of your preparedness. So we need to make sure that you're prepared for the chair seat in order for you to be a success. Because a lot of people want the title of board chair, but they don't want to do the role of board chair, if because that requires a different type of commitment and leadership contribution. So we want to prepare that person as best we possibly can for that leveling up that they'll have to do.
+++++++++++++++++++++
In case you’re counting, this was Episode 98. And we're getting closer to that milestone of 100 episodes. As I said last week, we have a very special guest for that episode. Someone who inadvertently had a major impact on my career. I'll give you a hint at this person's identity. She or he took their undergraduate degree from Cornell University.
But before we get to episode 100, we have Episode 99. Our guest next week is Dr. Barry Corey, the President of Biola University.
[00:22:37] Barry Corey: My father was a Pentecostal preacher in a hardscrabble town outside of Boston, Massachusetts. My parents did an unorthodox thing and allowed me to go to an all-boys Catholic preparatory school called St. John's in Shrewsbury, Massachusetts. Had a great education there. The great contributions that Catholics have made to education and virtues and morals and the values that needed to be embedded in education.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Alvin Sanders - World Impact
Uncommon Church: Community Transformation for the Common Good by Alvin Sanders
Redemptive Poverty Work by Alvin Sanders
Bridging the Diversity Gap: Leading Toward God’s Multi-Ethnic Kingdom by Alvin Sanders
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Alvin’s LinkedIn Profile
Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Scott Brill, the Chief Financial Officer at Young Life, and Mark Tjernagel, the CFO for Cru. These two seasoned CFOs have given us a behind-the-scenes look at the role of the Chief Financial Officer and a nonprofit organization and how that role is changed over the years.
Mark brings a perspective of having worked for Cru his entire adult life and is the longest-serving CFO that Cru has ever had. Scott began his career in the private sector with Target Corporation and joined Young Life a little over five years ago as their CFO. Let's pick up the conversation where we left off last week.
[00:00:43] Tommy Thomas: Take me a little bit into getting maybe a little more toward the accounting and finance piece of this, because I know our listeners, I want them to hear about that piece. Tell me a little bit about the size of your teams, and so you both work for two of the largest Parachurch Ministries, at least in the United States, probably in the world. Both of you are international. Tell me about your teams.
Scott, what does that look like at Young Life?
[00:01:09] Scott Brill: Yeah, so I have the financial services teams plus administrative and legal risk management teams. The financial services team is, 40 to 50 people. And that's really a lot of hourly people focused on income processing, the donation activity, accounts payable, all of our P card activity that's associated with that and is used throughout all of the U.S. and many countries in the world and then, our core accounting teams which are fewer people, but support accounting for all of our consolidated Young Life missions across the world. And we're in 102 countries. Not all of those are consolidated, but we're doing ministry work in 102 different countries.
[00:01:57] Mark Tjernagel: So, for me, our structure is a little bit different than Young Life. I have a team of about 75 people based out of Orlando, largely. Doing everything from the typical financial services that you would think of, but also internal audi. Cru is made up of many ministry divisions and many of your listeners have probably heard of the Jesus Film Project or Family Life or the Campus Ministry.
Those are all parts of Cru. So, Cru is a lot like an umbrella. With all of these things under it, each of the heads of finance for all of those divisions also reports on my team, so there are about 75 of those people, that I directly give leadership to then indirectly, there's probably another 75 to 100 people that either, you know, in related departments, but they don't report to me or that are out within our divisions. And so they report more indirectly as opposed to directly to me. But it's a pretty good-sized team. We have a lot of great folks working in finance.
[00:03:01] Tommy Thomas: How much of the job takes an accounting mind, and how much of it takes a finance mind? And I think I do know the difference between those two functions.
[00:03:11] Scott Brill: Yeah, you’re talking about our jobs? Yeah, the CFO role.
I would say it's predominantly the leadership and more of the financial mind is way more prominent than the accounting. There are a lot of CFOs who've never done accounting, and don't have accounting degrees, right?
They have an MBA and an engineering undergrad, right? And I think at that, at this level, you have a good controller who has to firmly understand all of the accounting, but many CFOs don’t have that.
[00:03:44] Mark Tjernagel: Yeah, I came up through accounting, right? I started in accounting. That was my track to be in the CFO.
That's a little heavier in terms of my experience than the finance side, what we would call treasury management, but certainly, once you get to this, the level of CFO, I don't do any journal entries, I'll interact with the partner from the auditing firm that's auditing Cru.
Most of my time is not on the technical. It's on the relational side and the leadership side.
[00:04:12] Mark Tjernagel: And I have to understand what's happening with accounting, right? It's certainly that. But most of my time is not on the technical. It's on the relational side and the leadership side. But I would say this, I think if I'm trying to really dig deeper into where your question was going there.
As a CFO, I do spend more time thinking about things like debt and investments and liquidity, and cash flow. Things like that, which tend to be more the finance side, the treasury function, then I do thinking about strategies for how we're managing the accounting for a film project or something like that.
I have people that are really good at that, and they do it, and they report it up to me, but I tend to be involved a little bit more on the liquidity and the treasury side.
[00:05:03] Tommy Thomas: Obviously, Scott, you've had a longer tenure in the private sector. So you might draw from that and, Mark, you obviously are from a nonprofit. But to both of you, how has the CFO role changed over the last 20 years?
[00:05:19] Mark Tjernagel: I wasn't the CFO, you know in the 80’s, so I don't know what it was like back then, but I'll speak for myself, what I'm seeing now, is it requires communication skills and it requires relation, abilities to build relationships. There's so much technical, so many people in the ministry, in the nonprofit setting, that don't understand like the super technical finance things, right? And frankly, don't even care about them. They just want to know can I do it and I do what God's called me to do. And so the ability to translate, to simplify, to take a really complex matter and just to be able to present it in less than 60 seconds, and then to say to a Board, you know to our Board or to leadership, hey, here are the things that we should be concerned about, and being able to say it really simply.
Communication skills are vital for the nonprofit CFO. You have to be able to communicate well.
[00:06:13] Mark Tjernagel: So, communication skills are just vital for CFOs. Now, maybe it was like that in the eighties, but I know right now that's the life of a CFO and a nonprofit. You have to be able to communicate well.
[00:06:37] Scott Brill: Yeah, I agree. And that evolution has, the role has tended to get more strategic and forward-looking. You report on what the results were and you share that with everybody. Make sure everybody knows how they did financially.
It's much more about how you are partnering and working with people to change and improve results going forward.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:06:56] Tommy Thomas: In both of your organizations, what does your interface with the board look like?
[00:07:02] Mark Tjernagel: For me, I attend all the board meetings. My team does the presenting. We have two financial-related committees, an audit committee, and what we call an investment committee.
And so we're putting the materials together, we're doing the presentations, we're framing out the issues we need decisions on for the board. So as the CFO, I personally interact with the chairman of those committees. Make sure they have what they need ahead of time. So, there's a lot of personal interaction with board members.
Whenever the board meets, they always have dinner. And members of management are able to go and interact with them in that way. So there's a personal relationship with the board members, but there's also a kind of a real formal role that we play as well in presenting to the board.
[00:07:56] Scott Brill: We have a finance committee that basically does the presentations to the finance committee at each of the board meetings and shares that with the entire board during the executive session. And then we have an investment committee. That's a subset of the finance committee and I chair the investment committee. So, we're actively integrated with the board on keeping them up-to-date and involved in our financial performance.
[00:08:25] Tommy Thomas: You guys have the privilege of probably working with fairly sophisticated boards. I know some of your board members from each of your organizations. If you were teaching at CLA or somewhere, what kind of counsel are you giving the CFOs on how to interact with their boards, and how to keep them informed?
[00:08:47] Mark Tjernagel: One of the most important concepts, and look, I serve on a lot of boards and at Cru, I don't serve on the Cru board. I help our board as a member of management, but then I serve on a lot of other boards. One of the most important concepts to remember for people is that the board has a distinct role and it's not management.
Like management has a role. The board has a role. And there's a lot of trouble when the board tries to manage and run the organization or when management tries to or fails to run the organization and basically keeps going to the board to tell them what to do all the time. So keeping those roles separate, I think is really important where you, so for example, one of my previous bosses told me, and it's been a lesson I've always remembered is
Don't ask the Board what to do. Present to the Board your proposal of what you'd like to do. If they don't like it, they'll tell you.
Don't ask the board what to do, present to the board your proposal of what you'd like to do. If they don't like it, they'll tell you, but don't go to the board and say we've got this issue, we're not sure what to do, what do you guys think? Go to the board and say we've got this issue.
Management has worked through a process. We would like to propose this course of action. And we're seeking the Board's approval on management taking this action. And so, it emphasizes that separation between the Board, that's governing these trustees that are governing the organization, and management, which is running the organization.
[00:10:17] Scott Brill: One of my first interactions with nonprofit boards, that was the conversation. Is this a governing board or a fundraising board? Never is the conversation, is it a managing board?
The Board should be focused on fundraising or governance or some combination of both.
And that's the advice I would give them is exactly following up on Mark's.
[00:10:39] Scott Brill: Continue to use them for governance purposes and fundraising purposes.
[00:10:44] Tommy Thomas: What role does the board have in risk management, if any, and if not, how does your office help mitigate risk?
[00:10:56] Scott Brill: I think that's one of their principal duties, right? As a governing board, they are charged with evaluating the risk relative to the nonprofit, focused, in our case, our ministry. And where are risks appropriate to take relative to the value of the ministry? And where do we need to have risk mitigation strategies in place? To mitigate the risk to the broader global ministry.
[00:11:23] Mark Tjernagel: Yeah. I totally agree. It's fundamental to the board's role to evaluate what we would call enterprise risk at that level to hold management accountable to that evaluation and provide the information that they need to perform their role in assessing that risk.
Risk management reports to me, and they do an assessment of risk and so forth, all of that, but a lot of that ends up being, like the insurance component, how we're transferring risk outside or what we're holding inside and what we're using the captive for and what we're just buying in the regular markets, that's more of the kind of the insurance side, the risk role for the board is broader than the insurance side. It's reputational risk and it's, it's all those things as well.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:12:16] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to your team for a minute. When some people would think about accounting and finance, somehow creativity and innovation might not be in the same sentence. How do you lead your staff in creativity and innovation without getting too far afield from ones and zeros?
[00:12:36] Mark Tjernagel: There are things you can be creative in and then things you shouldn't be creative in. Controls how your transactions process and function.
There are a lot of aspects of the finance function that are a little more set. But when it comes to things like how are you supporting decision-making? How are you analyzing your data? And Scott talked earlier about the finance function has evolved from reporting history more towards helping to set the path for the future.
There's a lot of creativity in how you think about your data. I can't give you the exact example, but I'll give you a general example. Right now, we have a board meeting next week and even now we're finalizing kind of what's the story behind a lot of the data we're looking at with this certain aspect of our donation and our staffing models and what that means and how then might that impact what we do in the future?
So, there's creativity in that. It's not, we're not artists or anything like that, but I will say this. It's not just accounting and finance majors working in finance, right? We have a lot of people that don't have those degrees, and one of the degrees that I have found has been super helpful are economics degrees, because economists, that's what they do.
They're really looking at data and they're trying to interpret things and say what in essence is really happening. And, that mindset and that thinking is really helpful for us in finance as well.
Two words that I never like hearing together are creative and accounting. That's not a place where I like to have people doing too much creativity.
[00:14:08] Scott Brill: Two words that I never like hearing together are creative and accounting. That's not a place where I like to have people doing too much creativity.
For me, it comes down to asking why. When I joined Young Life five years ago the controller would tell you after the first three months of coming in, he started to come in with, okay, I'm going to start with, here's the why. And that really drives the, wait, I'm thinking about this differently. I'm not sharing you. This is what we do. This is how it's been done in the past; this is the result of that. It's the, okay, why are we doing this? Why are we looking at this? That helps you start thinking okay, like now I can think about how I want that work going forward, which sparks the creativity. Oh, I get to change how this is working. How should it work going forward?
[00:15:02] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you or your department has taken on and how did it come out?
[00:15:13] Scott Brill: I'll go first. We're in the middle of it. I don't know how it's going to come out. But we're implementing Workday to replace Lawson as our general ledger software package. It's going to include human resources and a lot more of the typical enterprise infrastructure. So I did not want to do that. But we didn't have a choice because Lawson is no longer going to be supported. I'm going to foreshadow that it's going to come out great or you're going to die trying one of the two, like those system projects are a bear, like they just are.
[00:15:50] Mark Tjernagel: I'll take a little bit different angle and I'll say this. When I took over the leadership of the finance team, I think it's safe to say it was in disarray. We had a very low tenure. We had high turnover rates. There was a lot of pressure that we were understaffed.
And so there's a lot of pressure to get stuff done. And it wasn't a very fun place to work. And one of the first things I did was I gathered a small group of leaders and I just said, all right we've got to figure out how to make this a better place to work. Like, how do we change a culture and, it's not going to happen overnight, but what do we do?
And we worked a lot together. We didn't get an answer. The answer didn't just come to us in the first meeting. We collaborated and we prayed. We did a lot of activity, put a lot of effort into how we change the culture, and tried out different things that worked, some worked great, some didn't work so great, the theme of what really worked well and undergirded a transformation to which what I would say now is, we do have a great culture now in the finance function. We tried to change towards just really leading with our values.
We have the values within Cru of faith, growth, and fruitfulness. My team added a fourth value called community, because we really needed to work on that. And we just, we said, what does that mean? The slogan for the wall, but what does it actually mean? How do we do that? How do we infuse within how we lead the value of faith?
What does it mean to have a value of faith, the value of faith if you're in finance and what does growth mean for us as professionals and as missionaries and as, doing our work unto the Lord? And if we really value fruitfulness, how do we do our schedule in our everyday lives?
And that was daunting because finance just stunk. Nobody wanted to work there. So I would say that was probably the biggest scary thing that we took on. And thankfully, looking right now, we're always growing and learning and changing, but it's much, much better than it used to be.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:18:05] Tommy Thomas: If I had the privilege of traveling to Orlando and then out to Colorado here in the next couple weeks, and you let me attend one of your staff meetings, and at some point, we ask you to leave the room and you left me alone with your staff, first, what would they say would be the most difficult thing about working for you?
[00:18:25] Tommy Thomas: And on the flip side, what do you think they'd say would be the most rewarding aspect of working for you?
[00:18:32] Mark Tjernagel: I'll let Scott go first on that one.
[00:18:37] Scott Brill: You mean what I want them to say? You're asking what they're going to say.
What they tell me they would say is... the hardest thing is I don't let things slide. If I ask them why we're in a meeting today and it's why is this, different here? And they're like, Oh. I'm not sure why. And they're like, Oh, hard to believe we actually ran through this ahead of time together and yeah, we're stuck on this, this why.
And so that is what I think they would say is I'm always like finding the little discrepancies or, and I'm always looking for, why does this make sense or why care about this? I think that the thing that I hear that they enjoy the most is that I'm forthright, I tell them exactly what I'm thinking or, what I'm seeing.
And so they know where they stand on an initiative or what they're doing, with their team and what I think about it, but I let them do it. One of my better coaching moments was with somebody who worked for me. I was like, you need to stop telling your team what to do. Then you can ask questions about why they're doing something a way, but don't tell them to do it differently.
Let them figure out why they should be doing it differently. Otherwise, you're not getting commitment to what you're doing. You're just getting compliance with the methodology you are forcing upon them.
[00:20:07] Mark Tjernagel: The hard part of working for me is similar, high expectations, right? And it's not necessarily demanding excellence. There can never be a fault, but just really demanding high expectations and pushing people to do things beyond what they think they can do.
I think the thing they might say that they appreciate the most about me is they know I have their back and I will go to bat for them. I will take the blame. On their behalf, I'll try to shield them from a lot of the politics and the things that happen up in the other realm of the organization and defend them a lot.
[00:20:51] Tommy Thomas: You guys appear to be on the screen here, probably 10 to 15 years my junior. But I want to ask you a question about supervising generations.
So, you may have some boomers on your team, you may have some Gen Xers, you may have some Millennials, and you might even have some Gen Z people. What have you noticed about the difference in the way you, I'll use the word, manage and or lead?
[00:21:20] Mark Tjernagel: I wish I was better at this. I don't know that I'm great. I think there are certainly different ways that we interact. I will interact with different generations, not playing favorites with one or the other. Some of our older staff are more experienced and mature staff. There's one gentleman in particular who I remember when I asked him, I challenged him to a different role because I wanted him to have something that was less intense than the work that he had, but that could allow him to work for a longer period. And so just working with him on that. But I think I'd say this across generations. People are still motivated by a few things.
And I think one of them is knowing that the work that they're doing is important. And that they are seen and valued and so whether you're a brand-new staff member or an intern. I had we have some interns work in the summer. We took them out to lunch earlier this week, But then I've got people that are in their 70s still, you know working full-time jobs with us and everybody is the same.
They want to know that their work matters and that they matter. And so how I can communicate that sometimes you can communicate differently to different generations, but it's that similar message.
[00:22:48] Scott Brill: And the generational groupings are helpful when you're doing mass research and really understanding okay, what's changing with the thousands of kids that are showing up at a Young Life camp and what's happening out there? When you're dealing with teams of 50 you should be dealing with them as individuals within your leadership team.
And I have somebody who's 26 years old but has a lot more of the characteristics of a boomer. Don't treat them like, oh, you're Generation Z and I need to give you this and treat you this way. You should be tailoring your leadership to the individuals on your team.
And I think that's really the focus, from a leadership standpoint, I think the generational consistencies help you with the big broad strokes on, do you have to have more digital community environments available?
[00:23:45] Scott Brill: Yes. Will that continue to grow? Yes. But don't put that on everybody just because of their age group.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:23:54] Tommy Thomas: What was the most important lesson you think you learned during the pandemic that you'll take forward?
[00:24:02] Scott Brill: We can get work done without having everybody physically in the same office.
[00:24:08] Tommy Thomas: And you think y'all will continue that as you move forward?
[00:24:13] Scott Brill: Yes, I think we've learned where that can be done just as efficiently, sometimes more efficiently and where it can’t. So, I think, going forward, we'll be able to have that better balance of, hey, these things can happen very easily remotely, and these teams can be much more geographically diverse and still be very productive. These functions and these activities require a lot more physical presence to be as.
[00:24:45] Mark Tjernagel: I would say I totally agree, and I'll add something that's going to sound contradictory. But I think it's true as well, which is the importance of personal face-to-face interaction, right? We can get so much more work done differently now, and we learned how to do that in a hybrid setting.
But man, we also found how important it is that our people get together and have time and opportunities to interact with one another. And not everybody wants it, some people crave it and some people don't, but everybody needs a dose of it. And so finding ways you can balance that is going to be really important going forward.
[00:25:27] Scott Brill: I totally agree that's the hardest thing going forward is how you keep that connected, the team environment. So you might be just as productive, but if you don't feel like you're part of a team and you're very connected to people as individuals, that will show up in retention.
I agree with you, Mark. It's not contradictory at all. It's what you need to do to make it sustainable.
[00:25:56] Tommy Thomas: I've always been a big believer in non-profits working together and ministries working together. And I know you guys have this off-site thing that the different levels of leadership within multiple parachurch ministries do. Tell us about that and, what does the CFO conclave look like?
[00:26:18] Mark Tjernagel: Sure. Our predecessors have been meeting for years. Sometimes the organizations will have a COO, sometimes a CFO, that attends. So, I did actually, our COO attended for a long time and I just started attending a few years ago. But yeah, there are several parachurch organizations.
We get together usually twice a year and we spent about a couple of days together and honestly, a lot of times, we'll talk about some technical issues, how we're dealing with things, but a lot of times it's just great to get together with a peer from another organization and just be able to because the people that can relate to the challenges and the struggles and the things you're going through.
Those times have been really rich and rewarding for me.
[00:27:09] Scott Brill: Yeah, it was super helpful for me because coming from a for-profit public corporation world and moving into faith-based ministry, I learned a lot in those first sessions from the different ministries. Here are the challenges, oh, wait, that's the same thing I'm hearing from my team. Where are you already gone through this? And it was super valuable for me as I made that transition.
+++++++++++++++++++++=
[00:27:37] Tommy Thomas: Let's try to land this airplane here in the next minute or two. I'll ask you some possibly short answer questions, perhaps not. What's the main thing you wish somebody had told you earlier in your career?
[00:27:56] Mark Tjernagel: Being in ministry is not easy.
[00:28:05] Scott Brill: I wish I had learned earlier that you don't always have to be 100% right or 100% accurate. Maybe it's the engineering math in me that I always wanted to get that final accuracy over the edge. And that caused me some issues in relationships because I was too focused on that.
[00:28:33] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would that be?
[00:28:40] Scott Brill: That’s easy. Don't do that. Be directionally correct and focus more on the relationship. I think I'd go back to me and just encourage me to hang in there. That it's worth it. In the long run, it's worth it. The struggle, the challenges, it's worth it.
[00:28:58] Tommy Thomas: If you could get a do-over, is there anything in your career you would like another shot at?
[00:29:02] Mark Tjernagel: All the times I've messed up and how I've led people.
[00:29:10] Scott Brill: Yeah, that's a good one. I'll double down on that.
[00:29:16] Tommy Thomas: What's one piece of advice that you might have to those listening that are in some sort of CFO track? What kind of counsel are you giving them? And maybe this is a little bit of a longer answer.
[00:29:29] Mark Tjernagel: I would say I'll modify the question a little bit.
I'll say if somebody is in college, my recommendation or they're new in their career, I'd say learn everything you can about data and analytics software and tools, like Tableau and Power BI and things like that. Like how to think about information and data and how to visualize it and then also learn as much as you can about automation. Robotics is really big in accounting and finance now and it's the wave of the future and so understanding automation early in your career will be really helpful as you grow in your career if you're on a CFO track. I'd go back to what I said earlier, which is to take communications classes and network yourself right because the process of networking into things like the Christian Leadership Alliance or other events like Missio Nexus or places like that is helpful because it helps you learn how to communicate about who you are and how to communicate with other groups of people but any classes or courses on communication is super helpful because it's fundamental to a CFO.
[00:30:43] Scott Brill: Organizational behavior relationships. That's what's going to matter the most as you progress further up in your career.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I hope you've enjoyed learning from these two seasoned CFOs. Their insights have inspired me to have conversations with CFOs from additional nonprofit organizations. Future programming also includes conversations with the Chief Communication Officer, the Chief Information Officer, and the Chief Legal Counsel of nonprofit organizations. So, stay tuned for these episodes.
We're getting close to the 100th episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas. This is a huge milestone for us, and we have a very special guest for that episode.
I'll give you one clue as to who it might be. This person played a pivotal role in accelerating my career as a nonprofit executive search consultant.
Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
[00:24:51] Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com.
Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Cru Website
Young Life Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Scott Brill: The great recession. I had to actually take a leadership role in reduction in our workforce at Target. And I don't get too worked up about dollar decisions, blending decisions, all of those things. Sometimes they go the wrong way. It doesn't bother me at all. The really test of my mettle is the weight, the impact that this is having on people, not just themselves, but their families, and so that was one of the hardest things, having to sit there as people walked into a room knowing that they were about to learn that they did not have a job anymore.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:36] Tommy Thomas: In our quest to pass something useful along to the next generation of nonprofit leaders over the course of the past 90 episodes, we've had conversations with nonprofit Chief Executive Officers, Chief Development Officers, Chief Communications Officers, but we haven't spoken with any Chief Financial Officers.
That's about to change. Our guests today are Scott Brill, the Chief Financial Officer at Young Life, and Mark Tjernagel, the Chief Financial Officer at Cru. So, gentlemen, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:14] Mark Tjernagel: Thanks, Tommy. It's great to be here.
[00:01:17] Tommy Thomas: Before you came on, Mark, I asked Scott. He said he’s been at Young Life for five years. How many years have you been at Cru?
[00:01:23] Mark Tjernagel: Thirty-two years now.
[00:01:27] Tommy Thomas: Wow. You must have written the book there on finance.
[00:01:31] Mark Tjernagel: Yeah. I'm pretty sure on this stat that I was the youngest CFO Cru ever had. And I'm now the longest-tenured CFO Cru has ever had, so I might be due to do something else now. I don't know.
[00:01:44] Tommy Thomas: I'll keep that in mind next time I get a strong CFO search. So, before we dive too deep into your professional career, I want to go back maybe to your childhood or your upbringing. I'm always curious about things that happened to people along the way that made them who they are today.
[00:02:00] Tommy Thomas: Scott, we'll start with you. What two or three things do you remember about your childhood that you think were formative in your development?
[00:02:08] Scott Brill: Yeah, so I grew up in West Michigan and I think the biggest formative things for my childhood were church, grandparents, campground, and then school.
And school became a pivotal moment when I moved from the public school after eighth grade and switched to a Christian school. And that was a big formative event in my childhood. But it was based on strong family and church values.
[00:02:37] Tommy Thomas: What about you Mark?
[00:02:41] Mark Tjernagel: I grew up in a faith-based home, but not a practicing, what you might think of today as a practicing evangelical type home.
My parents loved each other. Great upbringing. One of the things I remember most about my childhood was our house was the house everybody came to. My friends would come over to my house, even when I wasn't there, just to hang out with my parents. So, my parents were great and everybody loved them. I loved them too.
And yeah, it was the weirdest thing one time when my friend said, hey, I'm going to go over to your house for dinner. I said I'm not going to be there. He said that's okay. I'll go hang out with your mom and dad. So it was fun. My parents loved people. People loved them. I learned a lot from them.
I think the other big thing I learned from them is they entrusted things to me at a pretty young age. And so, they gave me a lot of responsibility and held me accountable. And I think that served me well when I got older and went off to college and started work. So, I learned a lot from my parents. They were great.
[00:03:43] Tommy Thomas: So, what was high school like for y'all?
[00:03:49] Scott Brill: High school was great for me. As I said, I switched schools after eighth grade. And then I played football and got connected right away with friends from the football team. And it was actually quite a positive experience.
[00:04:05] Mark Tjernagel: I played football as well. Maybe there's a common theme here that you know sports or something like that will lead you to be competitive and be a CFO.
I don't know but yeah, high school was all about academics and athletics and it was great. I went to a public school. I grew up in San Antonio, Texas a wonderful place to grow up. A real cultural city. I loved it. High school was awesome. High school is also where I came to faith. My faith really became personal to me and started walking with the Lord right before my senior year of high school. High school was a real eventful time for me in my life.
[00:04:44] Tommy Thomas: When you got to college how did you decide your major?
[00:04:50] Scott Brill: I decided to major in engineering because that's what all of what I viewed as my smarter friends were doing and I started out engineering. And then a year and a half in, I started to get information about what that meant from what I was going to do for a job. And so, I actually switched. And I got my Bachelor of Science in Accounting. The reason I did that was because engineering was a science program and I was at a liberal arts school, Calvin College at the time, now Calvin University.
And so all of my science credits and those calculus classes, etc. applied much more favorably to engineering, bachelor's science, and accounting than they would have to a business degree.
[00:05:36] Mark Tjernagel: Yeah. I went to Texas A&M and Scott, at A&M, we used to call the engineering school pre-business because so many people started taking all the math and thought, maybe business would be a better major than engineering. But Tommy, when I was in high school, I don't remember if it was my junior or senior year that we had to take an elective and one of the electives that was out there, I didn't really know what to take, but it was accounting.
[00:06:04] Mark Tjernagel: I thought I'll try that out and just see what it is. And I loved it. I thought, man this actually totally makes sense to me. And so since it made so much sense to me and I knew there there would be good career opportunities in accounting. I was one of those few, I think that declared my major as accounting right from the start and stuck with it.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:06:24] Tommy Thomas: You graduated from college, you got a first job, and then somewhere along the way you had a chance to manage people. Scott, reflect back on that. What do you remember about that job?
[00:06:35] Scott Brill: I went to the University of Michigan and did my master’s in business administration after my first job.
Target Corporation - that's where I got my first job really leading a team. And I just remember messing it up. I remember more of the things I did wrong than anything I actually did right.
[00:06:40] Scott Brill: And so I left there and went to Target Corporation, and that's where I got my first job really leading a team. And I just remember messing it up. I remember more of the things I did wrong than anything I actually did right. I learned a lot more about reactions to things that I was not doing right than I would have if I just had gotten it right the first time.
[00:07:12] Mark Tjernagel: Yeah, I think, I go back a little bit before, before graduation and I've just found it seemed like multiple opportunities where I was put in a position to give leadership to people that I didn't ask for. I don't think I really even earned it. It was thrust upon me, like at A&M, I, as a student, became the director of the Cru ministry, the Student Director of the Cru ministry my last semester I think it was because I was still there.
I was the one that was left. I'd gone on a mission trip with a group called Operation Mobilization, a wonderful global ministry. I went on it as a college student, even though I was involved in Cru. I did a trip with OM, but that was okay. And while we were there, they asked me to lead a small group of people to do some ministry outreach in Norway.
And I was thinking some of these people don't even speak English. I'm in college. I've never led anything. Why in the world are you making me the leader of this?
They asked me to lead a small group of people to do some ministry outreach in Norway. And I was thinking some of these people don't even speak English. I'm in college. I've never led anything. Why in the world are you making me the leader of this?
And so it was just thrust upon me. And then when I graduated, I came straight to work with Cru. And so all of my leadership experience really from a work standpoint has been at Cru and like Scott said, I look back when I was a younger leader and I think, man, I'm so thankful I got the opportunities, but wow, I didn't know what I was doing, and it was hard.
[00:08:32] Mark Tjernagel: I didn't communicate well. I tend to be more of a quiet person. Especially when work gets busy and hard, I just put my head down and get work done. And I had to learn, no, you actually have to check in with people and see how they're doing, and I slowly learned the importance of being able to communicate with people and checking in with them regularly. But it was a rough go at the beginning, that's for sure.
[00:08:54] Tommy Thomas: So let me switch over to the role of a mentor. Did either of you have anybody that came alongside you and either formally or informally mentored you?
[00:09:02] Mark Tjernagel: Yeah, certainly. I did a little talk one time. I won't remember all of the stats from it, but I went through several of the bosses that I had. And I wrote down a word or a theme or a thing that I had learned from each of them. One of them was the importance of communication and interacting with people and another one, I remember it was about the importance of Information Technology. He was really big on systems and how all of the systems played into the work that we were doing with finance.
I learned so much about kind of crossing functional barriers and not just being a finance guy. Yeah, I had several people that really mentored me. One that really stands out was a board member of Cru, a gentleman by the name of Bruce Buner. I believe he was the very first CFO Cru ever had, but he did that for a short time and then he went out into the business world and was very successful.
But he spent a lot of time helping me think about how to put together, it sounds simple, but writing a memo, trying to create an argument, so to speak, not an argument, like a fight, but to make a case, how to think like an executive leader, how to connect in the community, he was a wonderful man and a great mentor. I learned a lot from him.
[00:10:18] Scott Brill: Yeah, similarly, it was a long string of different people who were engaged in my career in development. And it changed as I moved around into different roles and functions. But there are people who are consistently there to help and give me advice. And really help me stay out of my own way on some things, especially the same things Mark's talking about.
[00:10:44] That's why I like him so much. Same issues on, hey, you can probably communicate a little more and share what you're thinking more readily. And that's been the biggest thing that they've helped do with a lot over the years in leadership.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:10:57] Tommy Thomas: Scott, I remember when I recruited Atul Tanden to World Vision from Citibank, and he was an Indian fella, and he had this clipped British accent, and after about six months of being on the job, he called me one day, and, he says, Tommy, he says, if we'd have had this many meetings at Citibank, we wouldn't have had a bank.
[00:11:17] Tommy Thomas: What was your biggest shock as you left the private sector and came to Young Life?
[00:11:25] Scott Brill: I still have a lot of meetings. And it was funny because I felt like it was a lot less, a lot fewer meetings. Like I had a lot more free time than they did in the private sector. Yet my peers all felt like, how are we adding all these meetings?
And we're spending so much time in meetings. And so, for me, it was that your relative position makes a big difference. I felt like I was being freed from a fair amount of meetings, while they felt like they were spending too much time in meetings.
[00:11:54] Tommy Thomas: What they didn't know…
[00:11:56] Scott Brill: Exactly. Grass is always greener.
[00:11:58] Tommy Thomas: You pick who goes first on this one, but tell me about a time in your life where you, in the southern vernacular, a situation tested your metal, and how did you come out of it?
[00:12:17] Mark Tjernagel: This is a challenging question. I'll go first. The list is numerous. What's going on in my head is, how do you pick one? I've been the CFO now since 2005. You're tested constantly.
[00:12:34] People don't always agree with you and that's fine. You can deal with that. Sometimes you're attacked personally. Those are a little harder to deal with. Sometimes there are leadership issues, where you're going against the grain, you're trying to push for something and it's really hard and it's a time of testing, so to speak.
[00:12:54] Mark Tjernagel: I think the example I'd give, Tommy, is one that's really more of a longer-term thing. And that was the CFO in 2005. The guy I took the role over from was Mr. Buner that I mentioned earlier. He had come in on an interim basis while we were in between CFOs before I was officially named that. He was on our board.
So, he had me doing a lot of the work and he got me started on a project that didn't end until 2016. It was a project to sell our former headquarters. Many of your listeners might remember Arrowhead Springs which was the former headquarters of Campus Crusade for Christ, our name back then when we were founded, but we now go by Cru, but our former headquarters at Arrowhead Springs.
[00:13:39] And I worked on that for 10 years and you, the astute listener, will know that in the middle of that 10-to-11-year timeframe was the great recession. That tested a lot of our metal and how, we're trying to sell this property that's costing us a lot of money just to carry because it wasn't producing any revenue.
[00:13:56] It was property sitting there. It was very expensive to hold, and very difficult to sell. There are just challenges with how the property was owned. It was owned by multiple entities of Cru. It had water rights and it had easement rights and it had land rights and it had mineral rights. It just was a really challenging thing to begin with, but then just trying to sell it coming and going into and out of the recession.
[00:14:22] We had a deal, basically, when the recession hit it fell through. And what I learned from that was just the importance of what I'll call grit like it's just sticking to it. I had to have confidence. I had to go to the board meeting. After the meeting, I remember one of our board members said once, they didn't mean it in a mean way at all, right?
[00:14:43] There was a wonderful board member. They said I'm looking forward to the day when we don't ever have to hear about Arrowhead Springs again. It's because that's how everybody felt like, oh my gosh, why can't you sell this thing? Why can't you sell this thing? Year after year, meeting after meeting.
[00:15:00] Mark Tjernagel: And it was just, man, we have to stick to it. And one of the things I learned was you just have to have a vision. You've got to work creatively, but you just got to keep grinding. And it took a lot of grit to get to that point where we could finally sell. Let me tell you this, that thing sold, what a relief was taken, the weight was removed from my shoulders.
[00:15:21] Mark Tjernagel: And it wasn't actually even a big public celebration. Nobody really cared. We sold the property, big deal, but in my mind, it was, man, that was 11 years’ worth of work. And wow, that was great. And just the relief and kind of the internal celebration was good, but I know probably didn't answer your question well about what I learned, but I think it was just that aspect of sticking to something that's hard. Even when it's hard and not giving up.
[00:15:51] Scott Brill: Yeah, I go back to that same time period. The great recession. I had to actually take a leadership role in reduction in our workforce at Target. And I don't get too worked up about dollar decisions, blending decisions, all of those things. Sometimes they go the wrong way.
It doesn't bother me at all. The thing that really tests my mettle is the weight, the impact that this is having on people, not just themselves, but their families, etc. And so that was one of the hardest things, having to sit there as people walked into a room knowing that they were about to learn that they did not have a job anymore.
And that was really hard for me to reconcile with my values as a leader. And so I learned a lot from how to do my best to avoid being in those situations and how to be resilient by focusing on what you're doing for those who will be able to stay and keep their jobs, from a longer-term standpoint.
[00:16:51] Scott Brill: So that's the hardest thing is the things that have human impact on people.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:16:57] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to hiring for a minute. I probably know that you screen for the technical competencies of an accounting and a finance person. But aside from that, if you've had a key to your success in hiring what would it have been?
Hire for attitude, train for skill. It's a lot easier to teach people how to do something that is skill-based and required.
[00:17:16] Scott Brill: Mine is simple. Hire for attitude, train for skill. It's a lot easier to teach people how to do something that is skill-based and required. Now, in accounting, there are some jobs they need a degree for. They've already learned a lot of that skill. We're just going to augment that with specific skills, within our systems, technology, and business framework.
But I'd rather take somebody who's a little lacking on the skill side who has a great attitude every day. Makes the team much better.
[00:17:47] Mark Tjernagel: Yes. I like that hire for attitude, not for skill. It's difficult asking interview questions and assessing character, right? But character, I think we'd all agree, that's like fundamental to really a person being successful on our teams is that is their ability to blend in with our team.
And I work with our HR team to really try to craft creative questions, depending on the role, the questions will change, but that help us gain insight into will this person fit not just the technical skill. You're right, technical skill there is a baseline.
You've got to know something right? I couldn't hire somebody to do FNPA that doesn't know anything about accounting or analytics, right? So, there's a baseline, but it's that character. But man, it's really hard to assess. We'll do multiple interviews, right?
[00:18:38] Mark Tjernagel: And we'll try to weave those questions in there a lot, just trying to gain that will the person fit, and do we think they're of the right kind of character for our team and our environment?
[00:18:51] Scott Brill: I find a valuable way, like we tended to always have a lunch or a dinner depending on the level of the position in the interview progression.
But get them outside of an office environment in that I'm just trying to present what I'm presenting to you in a lunch or a dinner that you get a lot more of the, who they are outside of work.
Mark Tjernagel: That's a great idea.
[00:19:12] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, we like to do that in our search practice. We always encourage committees to include a meal so they can get off point maybe.
[00:19:22] Tommy Thomas: I think the strangest thing I've ever seen in that was, and it was from the flip side, I don't remember who the client was, but I remember the candidate was in Seattle. And so, the hiring director flew to Seattle to interview the candidate, and that lady took the client to the World Series.
[00:19:37] Tommy Thomas: I guess the Mariners were in the World Series that year. And so, I thought, now that's an interesting way to spend an afternoon with your future boss. Just real quickly on terminating. Scott, you mentioned something back in the recession but in general, say you've had somebody that's gone the course and it just didn't work out.
What have you learned over the years is the best way to facilitate that?
[00:20:03] Scott Brill: I think if you do it right, it should never be a surprise. So if you're terminating somebody because they're not delivering to the expectations that you have for the role or that your ministry or whoever you're working for has it, they should already know that. You should have been communicating consistently with them about where they're missing the mark and giving them a chance to address that.
[00:20:28] Scott Brill: Some of those things you can help with. Some of those things you just have to make them aware of and they need to figure out how to handle it on their own. And if they can't, then you're going to that next step where you're having that conversation of, as we've been talking about these things and we're not making progress to the level that we need to, for you to continue to support this role.
[00:20:52] Mark Tjernagel: That's so good. It's so good. It shouldn't be a surprise. Unfortunately, sometimes it is even though you say it multiple times, but you're right, Scott. That's progression. Tommy, there's a concept we try to put into practice in Cru. We didn't invent it. It's from the Bible. Henry Cloud has taught on this a lot, about grace, truth, and time. There's a passage in Luke - Luke 13:6-8, if any of the listeners want to look it up. I actually have it here. It says a man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any.
So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, for three years now, I've been coming to look at the fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Just cut it down. Why is it using up the soil? Sir, the man replied, leave it alone for one more year. I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine.
If not, then cut it down. And so, there's this concept weave through that parable of grace, wait, don't cut it down yet. Give me another chance. But truth. Look, it's going to be cut down if it doesn't bear fruit, right? Just speaking of the tree, not the person.
[00:22:00] Mark Tjernagel: It's going to be cut down if it doesn't bear fruit. But, the rescuer, so to speak, the vineyard the person that works there says no, let me fertilize, let me dig around, let me uncover the truths of what's really happening. Let me fertilize it, try to grow, offering that grace, and let's give it some time so that we can make a decision, but we're implementing grace with truth, but also giving some time because change and developing, it doesn't happen immediately.
[00:22:30] Mark Tjernagel: And like Scott said earlier, as we get to the end of the proverbial year from this parable, like everybody should know, okay, it's time. We're not seeing the fruit, we're not seeing the things, this probably isn't a good fit, we're going to make a change. But that's grace, truth, and time. That concept is the thing that I've learned a lot in how people have dealt with me.
[00:22:50] Mark Tjernagel: And I think it's been very helpful as I've dealt with my teammates.
[00:22:56] Scott Brill: One thing I've learned over the years a lot of times you're doing a disservice to the individual as well. Because there are so many different environments, roles, functions, teams, and expectations.
[00:23:10] They just haven't been willing to pull the trigger to make a change a lot of times as well. And they're not being their best selves. And so, I have multiple times where people have come back and said, thank you, I am now in a much better place.
Vocation formation. I don't know if you've done any work on that, but I found a role where now I am excited. Like I belong here. I'm delivering great results. And I was not doing that in the role that I was in before.
[00:23:39] Mark Tjernagel: And Tommy, sometimes it's not always, like Scott said, it's not always we're going to terminate you and you're no longer employed by Cru. Sometimes it's, you have great character.
You're a wonderful part of our team. We love having you here. I know there's a contribution that you can make. It's just not this current role. Let's work to try to find a better role and a better fit for you if we can within the organization.
[00:24:10] Tommy Thomas: Next week, we will continue this conversation with Scott and Mark. They will take us deeper into their individual roles as the CFOs of Young Life and Cru, as well as the overall changing role of the nonprofit CFO.
Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Cru Website
Young Life Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Alvin Sanders: The hardest decision I had to make concerning my own personal level of leadership was the decision that I made in 2007 to leave the pastorate and to work for the denomination.
And the thing that got me was the President who unfortunately has passed away, Bill Hamill, he asked me the question, he said, Alvin, do you want to influence one church or do you want to influence 1500 churches? And honestly, I had to ask to myself, and I said I want to influence 1500 churches.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:34] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dr. Alvin Sanders. On his LinkedIn Profile it says, President and CEO of World Impact, Adjunct Seminary Professor, Advocate for Redemptive Poverty Work, Husband, Father, Author, Mentor, and Loves Sports. I imagine we could do a podcast episode on all those titles, particularly the one about sports.
But today I want to focus on Alvin's role as the President and CEO of World Impact, and in particular their work as an advocate for redemptive poverty. Alvin, give us your elevator speech on World Impact.
[00:01:17] Alvin Sanders: World Impact started about 52 years ago and we're trying to solve the problem that 95% of the world's pastors have no formal ministry training.
We believe that we provide effective ministry training that's affordable and accessible as part of the solution to that problem. And our theory of change is that trained urban pastors lead to healthier churches, which leads to them impacting their community toward flourishing.
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: Good. You got that one down.
[00:01:46] Alvin Sanders: That's good. I don't know if that was 30 seconds or not. I got it.
[00:01:50] Tommy Thomas: To our listeners, Alvin and I met, at least for me, in an unusual way. I was conducting the CEO search for the City Gospel Mission in Cincinnati, and I did my LinkedIn research and I liked Alvin's background. I thought he might be a good candidate.
So, I called him, and he said, no, he was pretty committed to World Impact, but then he turned the tables on me. He says we need a couple of additional cabinet members. Would you be interested in helping us? And next thing I knew Alvin had recruited me to help him with two searches. I didn't have to submit a proposal or anything. So, Alvin, I guess I owe you a big thank you for trusting us with that work.
[00:02:26] Alvin Sanders: You did an excellent job. I have two awesome team members, and we're a better organization because of your work.
[00:02:34] Tommy Thomas: Thank you. Take me into a little bit of your background. I'm always curious how people got their start. What do you remember about your childhood that maybe has contributed to the man you are today?
[00:02:44] Alvin Sanders: Yeah, so I'm a military brat. My father was in the Air Force for 30 years and we lived globally. For instance, I spent four years in Okinawa, Japan during my formative language years, and I don't remember this, but I've been told that I used to be able to speak fluent Japanese, so I wish that I could conjure that up again, but I can't.
But that had a big effect on me. Because I grew up what's called a third culture kid. And you can look that term up, but it's essentially a person who could see into different cultures while not being in them, I would say you grow up organically, culturally flexible. That's probably the easiest way to describe it.
And so that led me to ministry. I've been in ministry for 32 years. I started in ministry at 21. Worked at a variety of places but they always had a connection to the urban context of making disciples there. And I worked with the Evangelical Free Church of America planting an inner-city church in the city of Cincinnati.
I worked for the aforementioned City Gospel Mission before that under their president who's no longer with them, Roger Howell. And then I also worked for the Evangelical Free Church of America denomination, running their All-People initiative. And then I came the World Impact as a Senior Vice President in 2015 and then became president in 2017. And this is where I hang my hat.
[00:04:06] Tommy Thomas: So, growing up all over the world, what was high school like for you?
[00:04:10] Alvin Sanders: My dad ended up retiring in Columbus, Ohio, so that's where I spent most of my time. And that's where I went to high school.
[00:04:17] Tommy Thomas: And when you got to college, how'd you pick a major?
[00:04:21] Alvin Sanders: The first major that I picked was Physical Therapy, and the first college that I went to was Bowling Green State University near Toledo, Ohio. And while on campus I got very involved with a campus ministry. None of the major ones, but just a small one that was started by a fellow student.
And it was during that time I said, man, I think God's calling me to do this full time. So, I ended up transferring to Cincinnati Christian University and as they say, the rest is history.
[00:04:52] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people might be surprised to know about you that maybe is not on your LinkedIn profile or not in any writing anywhere?
[00:05:01] Alvin Sanders: Oh, let's see. That I'm a homebody. Much to my wife's chagrin. A perfect day for me is doing nothing. It is sitting in my recliner downstairs with food and drink and watching good sports or good news stories or whatever, but I love to do nothing.
[00:05:27] Tommy Thomas: Now that would come as a surprise just from my working with you because in our relationship, you've been out and about and upfront and returning from a speaking engagement or headed to one.
[00:05:38] Alvin Sanders: Yes, and I'm sure that's probably what plays into those times when I don't have anything to do. I cherish them.
[00:05:43] Tommy Thomas: Take me back to your first management job when you actually had somebody that you were responsible for. What do you remember about that?
[00:05:51] Alvin Sanders: The crazy thing, it was both a blessing and a curse, was the first ministry position I've ever held. I had pretty significant responsibilities. And I learned I can be an intense person.
God bless the first people that I had to supervise and the first volunteers I had to direct because with a military and athletic background and an intense personality – I’m sure those people got fried.
I was probably a marine minister; I would say so to speak. And what I remember is God's providence and blessing the success of the things that I did. And I also had a lot of learning lessons about what it means to really invest and treat people with respect and dignity.
[00:06:44] Tommy Thomas: You've had a long career in ministry and I'm sure you've had times that have “tested your mettle”. Maybe can you take us into one of those and what you learned or maybe didn't learn from it?
[00:06:55] Alvin Sanders: The biggest, one of those things, Tommy, that tested my mettle was when me and my wife planted at a church in inner-city Cincinnati.
About six months into the church planting experience, there was a police shooting of a young black teenager by a white police officer. This was spring of 2001 and the neighborhood in which we planted a church where the shooting took place exploded in civil disobedience. And you want to talk about the crucible of ministry and trying to figure out what to do.
We were young church planters. Six months in just trying to get a church together and draw people, and then all of a sudden, this thing happens. And we learned to depend upon God and that Proverbs, I think it's Proverbs 3:5-6, trust in Lord and all that you do and lean not on your own understanding.
In all thy ways, acknowledge him and he shall direct your paths because there's no strategic plan for planting a church in the middle of a race riot. There just isn't. So, we really learned what it means to trust the Lord and invest in people deeply, invest in a neighborhood deeply so that we can both improve the lives and hearts of the people as well as the neighborhood and pursue the common good. And so, that changed the trajectory of my life.
[00:08:15] Tommy Thomas: So yeah, pursuing the common good. What did that look like, could you take us into how you executed that?
[00:08:22] Alvin Sanders: Yes. It starts with the philosophical bent of you have to be deeply committed to the people of the neighborhood and the place that it's in.
There are no walls to the church. The people who are typically in communities of poverty, folk come in there and they don't have a deep commitment to them. They come and go as they please. They don't have a long-term commitment to them. And so, in terms of the people, it's just a biblical process of, evangelism, discipleship, helping them become better people in Christ.
But in terms of commitment to place we utilized very heavily a concept called asset-based community development, or ABCD, where you map out the assets of a community. Because when it comes to communities of poverty, in a lot of places, people always look at what's wrong with the community.
Asset-based community development says every community has things that are wrong. What's right with the community? And look at what's right with the community and see how you can be. How you can fill the glass up, so to speak. If the glass is half full or half empty is the negative stuff half full? Is the water in the glass?
So how do you raise the level of water, so to speak? And so, when we did our asset-based mapping, we saw that what the community did not have was many services for the working poor. Yeah, because most of the people who are in poverty are working. They're not the folks standing on the corner saying, please, brother, can you spare a dime?
They're not those people. Not that those people aren't in poverty, but that's not what the face of poverty looks like. The face of poverty in the United States looks like a single mother with kids who's working a service industry job. And so, we really began a ministry towards that group.
Working with my wife to establish a food pantry and health check center in the back part of the church. So, we established a food pantry that people could utilize once a month because that's really all they needed once we did our surveying. And that helped them stretch their check. They could come in, they could get the groceries, and they maybe had money for three weeks, but then this would be the fourth week.
And then also while they were there, we partnered with Xavier University with their nursing student program, and nursing students would be in the back and they could get they can get diabetes check and things of that nature. And then if they had any health issues, we would refer them down the street to a local health clinic.
And then we also had a person, one of our staff members who would sit in the back and say, hey - anybody have any spiritual concerns or any spiritual or anything, you want us to pray for this, that or the other, or just see general life advice from the Word then they could go stop there.
So, we had a three-stop shop where people could come get their food, they could get their health checked, and then they can be ministered to spiritually as well.
[00:11:28] Tommy Thomas: Obviously most of my experience with you has been in the hiring mode. And I probably know a little bit of the answer to this next question. But for people who wonder what a CEO looks for in senior leadership, take us into some of the qualities that you're looking for in leaders.
[00:11:43] Alvin Sanders: Yes. Basically, and I don't remember which guru I got this from, or what book I read it from, so it's not original to me. But there are two main characteristics that I always look for in my team. Can they do the job right and can they do the job well? Can they do the job right has to do with their moral character and whether or not they fit into our core values at World Impact.
So we screened for that, and then we hired you all to screen for can they do the job well. That has to do with skillsets and the abilities that people may have in order to do the job description that we have designed for that particular job.
Can they do the job right? Can they do the job well? Those are the two big things that I look for in my team to contribute to the leading of World Impact.
[00:12:35] Tommy Thomas: I remember, and yours was the first, and I guess so far the only client I've had that used this thing, I think you called it a circle of voices. And I thought that was cool.
And every listener may use it in their work. I don't know. But take us into that.
[00:12:49] Alvin Sanders: When we're making major decisions, we don't do it for every decision. We do it only for major decisions. We do a circle of voices and again, I don't remember where I picked this up from, but what we do is whatever the decision that we have to make, we give to everybody around the table, you have to speak for at least two minutes, but no more than five minutes and give your perspective on what decision we need to make and why, and it's like you're in court, you're a lawyer, make your case for why, what do we, what do you think we need to do and why? And nobody else can speak while that person is speaking. And then I'm literally the timekeeper.
So you only get five minutes. You must speak for at least two minutes, but you only get five. And then after each person has spoken, then we open the floor up for dialogue and debate and come to a collaborative decision.
[00:13:52] Tommy Thomas: On the flip side of that, and I hadn't been with you on this, but what goes into how you finally decide somebody's got to go and what have you seen the best way to do it?
[00:14:02] Alvin Sanders: We try to err on the side of grace. And we believe in weekly feedback.
So, our supervisors theoretically are coaches. So theoretically, if we say you're to supervise someone, it's because we believe that you can coach that person to be a better person who contributes to the mission of our organization. So, if someone is constantly not living up to what we desire for them to do within our organization, then we utilize the tool that everybody else utilizes a Performance Improvement Plan or PIP.
And some people think, once I've been PIPPED that's just the time period that you have for me to work until I have to find another job. But that's not what we utilize it for. Hopefully, we really want to say, hey, we want you to improve. And there have been people that we have put on Performance Improvement Plans that they actually emerged out of that, and they kept going.
And then after a PIP, if you still aren't doing what you need to do, then we just have a brutally honest conversation with the person. Just say, hey, it's not working out here for you. It's time for you to transition out. We always work hard to get people to self-select out. And 90 - 95% of the time, that's what happens.
We are long-suffering. We practice the spiritual discipline of patience.
It's no surprises. The only people who get fired from our organization are people who do egregious violations of our core values. If you do an egregious violation of our core values, then you must go, because we've communicated our core values to you.
Core values to us are not just some booklet that sits on a shelf. We actually live them. We do things to catalyze them. So, most people that get fired, they've egregiously violated, but the overwhelming majority of people who are World Impact transition out. If they're not, we help them figure out how to transition out and self-select.
[00:16:15] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned you were in senior leadership fairly early on. Who were some of the mentors in your life and how did that play out?
[00:16:23] Alvin Sanders: Yeah, I've had several mentors the aforementioned City Gospel Mission and Roger Howell. He was my first boss who really helped shape and mold me into the person I am today.
When I worked in Chicago for two years and I worked at a place called Circle Urban Ministry, Glen Kayron was someone who invested in me deeply. When I did my PhD studies Dr. Michael Dantley, who's a prominent African American pastor in the city of Cincinnati, as well as he was a professor at Miami University, and I studied under him. He played a key role in my development as well.
[00:16:59] Tommy Thomas: Did these people see something in you, and of course I guess your bosses, they can understand that. But did mentors see something in you and seek you out, or did you see something in them and figured you'd be better if you could sit under their tutelage?
[00:17:16] Alvin Sanders: Well, it's a combination of both. And I actually left one out that he's probably the person who saw the most in me at the beginning, and that's a gentleman ny name of Dr. Jonathan Burnham, who his church, Hope Evangelical Free Church, was the parent church of my church, River of Life church.
And he saw me as a tremendous leader. Way more than I did. I had leadership characteristics, but I was extremely raw and rough around the edges, and Jonathan Burnham really invested in me and my family and helped us when we planted River of Life Church. And those seven, eight years I spent under his tutelage were tremendous.
[00:17:56] Tommy Thomas: I never phrased this question exactly right, but I guess I'm looking for when you recognized, and maybe you acknowledged that you did have leadership potential and some of those rough edges began to smooth and you felt more comfortable moving. Do you remember that?
[00:18:11] Alvin Sanders:
I'm arrogant enough to have never thought I wasn't a leader. It was never about that for me. What it was about for me was getting more polished.
If I was in the room, I was going to lead, that's just the way it was going to go because that's the way my personality type I'm told, so the old Myers Briggs, I am an ENTJ, and I'm told that's a characteristic of that personality type that we either lead or we influence.
The head leaders, we take our ball, and we go home. That's basically our personality type. Okay. So, for me, it was a matter of how to be a good godly leader. How to get polished to be able to do that instead of just leading rough shot and wild.
[00:18:56] Tommy Thomas: Thinking about your team do y'all have any team-building exercises that you use that you found effective as you try to bring this group together?
[00:19:05] Alvin Sanders: We have a meeting rhythm as a team. We get together for 90 minutes every four or five weeks, and then once a quarter we do a two-and-a-half day offsite. And the offsite is a combination of relationship building as well as business items. During our 90-minute time together, we always start our meetings off by sharing one good thing. What's one good thing professionally or personally that's happened to us since our last time together? We also always have prayer time together. And during our offsites, we have extended sharing, and extended prayer because I have a saying that I care much more about who you are as a person than what you do.
And we live that. And we live that out. And that's the biggest thing that we do as an executive team in order to, for us to be glued to one another.
[00:20:03] Tommy Thomas: So y'all have operated as a virtual organization from a long time ago. And obviously, it's worked, or you wouldn't be doing it. Tell us a little bit about that.
[00:20:13] Alvin Sanders: Yes. We were virtual before it was cool to be virtual. And the prior president to me, Efrem Smith, he's the one who implemented that. And then when I came in being virtual can be done, but you have to be very intentional about relationship building, like the things that I just talked about.
Operating a virtual ministry can be done but you must be VERY intentional about relationship building.
We have monthly prayer times where we have all staff get on Zoom for an hour, and half that hour we spend in prayer, both large group and small group. And in the other half, we highlight two staff members where we just do some lighthearted questions and answers and let everybody get to know one another.
Once a year we gather all staff together for one day of team meetings, and then two and a half days of really just fun. And investing in one another and encouraging one another around one of our core values. Because we have five core values. So, we do a theme each year.
So, we do a lot of intentional relationship-building. And we just experimented with something that we’re probably going to keep and that it's in the spring. We've had regional gatherings, so we have staff spread off all across the country and we gather staff for a day in Cincinnati, a day in Wichita, Kansas, and a day in Long Beach.
And based on where you lived, you went to one of those locations and we had some training and team-building time. So really to sum it all up, it's intentional relationship building.
[00:21:45] Tommy Thomas: What was the biggest lesson on the positive front that your team took out of Covid relative to management and leadership?
[00:21:54] Alvin Sanders: Wow. The biggest lesson.
[00:22:00] Tommy Thomas: Something that you might take forward. You might think COVID is gone, but we're still going to probably do that.
[00:22:04] Alvin Sanders: Actually, you know what? It's what we just talked about because we weren't doing all that before covid. We were virtual, but we weren't gathering, we were not utilizing the tool of technology like we do now, and we were not gathering like we do now.
[00:22:21] Tommy Thomas: I thought early on that Covid was bound to have some kind of silver lining and usually everybody that I talked to, there's some kind of silver lining for it.
[00:22:32] Alvin Sanders: And that's what it was because we weren't we started praying online together because this is a serious time.
We want to pray for our country and pray for each other. Let's get online once a month and all pray together. And it was like, you know what? This is pretty awesome. Let's keep doing it.
[00:22:47] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior or trait that you've seen derail a leader's career?
[00:22:53] Alvin Sanders: The number one thing I think that either makes or derails a leader's career is emotional intelligence. Having self-awareness of your strengths and your weaknesses and adjusting accordingly. Being able to look at others and not see them as an object in your way or just, not as human beings and people actually caring about them and their work and their contribution.
The number one thing I think that either makes or derails a leader's career is emotional intelligence. Having self-awareness of your strengths and your weaknesses and adjusting accordingly.
As well as them as people, individually, people who do not have good emotional intelligence. Eventually, the house burns down. That's what I've seen.
[00:23:39] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we learn the most from our failures or our mistakes. If that's true, why is it that most of us are so afraid to fail?
[00:23:48] Alvin Sanders: I don't think you can learn, Tommy, unless you do fail. I have a weird goal and that's to fail every day. Because if I'm not making mistakes, that means I'm not pushing myself to be the best person I could be. Because no one knows everything. The way you get to learn things is you have to fail at it first.
It's impossible to know something until you have some failures.
It's impossible to know something until you have some failures, and then in those failures, you say, okay, what can I pick up and learn from this? And then you move forward.
[00:24:19] Tommy Thomas: I was talking to Alec Hill, the President Emeritus of InterVarsity, or maybe it was Rich Stearns. I forget which one. But anyway, they said, “Never trust a leader who doesn't have a limp”.
[00:24:31] Alvin Sanders: Yeah - Amen on that.
[00:24:33] Tommy Thomas: I know you're a busy man and yet you've talked about how you like to rest and enjoy. How do you and your wife handle work-life balance in your leadership role?
You know what, I'm contrarian on that. I think it's impossible to have work-life balance.
[00:24:45] Alvin Sanders: You know what, I'm contrarian on that. I think it's impossible to have work-life balance. I don't like to look at it that way. I like to look at it as seasons. There are seasons of busyness and then there are seasons of Sabbath and rest. And that's how I view my life and that's how my wife and I do that now.
We're empty nesters now. Yeah, we're much less busy than we used to be. We're still busy. But I think like I said I'm a contrarian and I believe that it's impossible to have a work-life balance or I just never figured out how to do it. It's just, look, I live my life in 90 days sprints, right?
And I go, okay, honey, this is what my 90 days is going to look like. The month of July, not going to see you much. But look here, in mid-August, I'm taking 10 days off. We'll be together. So it's quarter-like to me, it's seasons. And it’s seasons of super busyness and then seasons where you're not so busy and when you're not so busy, you make sure to take time to connect relationally with the people who are most important to you.
[00:25:52] Tommy Thomas: What's the hardest decision you've had to make in leadership?
[00:26:03] Alvin Sanders: There's been a ton. The hardest decision I had to make concerning my own personal level of leadership was the decision that I made in 2007 to leave the pastorate and work for the denomination.
And the thing that got me was the President who unfortunately has passed away, Bill Hamill, he asked me the question, he said, Alvin, do you want to influence one church or do you want to influence 1500 churches? And honestly, I had to ask myself and I said, “I want to influence 1500 churches”.
And that was a super tough decision because our church, the Church River of Life. We still go there, by the way, even though we don't pastor there. Me and my wife says that's our third child. We have two wonderful daughters and River of Life. We basically feel like that's our third child.
So, it was literally like leaving your child to someone else's care when we left that.
[00:27:03] Tommy Thomas: You worked for a great guy in Bill Hamill. I had the privilege of knowing him over the years and it was always good. I always loved my time with Bill.
[00:27:11] Alvin Sanders: Great man. A great man of God.
[00:27:14] Tommy Thomas: Changing up maybe on a little bit lighter note, if you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank and you had deep pockets, what questions would you have to have solid answers for before you would back one of these startups?
[00:27:33] Alvin Sanders: I don't know about specific questions, but I know the things that I would screen for.
I would screen for the person - do they know who they are and what they want to do? Essentially, that's where my big questions would be about. Do they know who are they solidly? Can they solidly define who they are as a person and as an individual? And can they solidly describe where they think they want to go? And take then, therefore, take the organization that they’re leading.
[00:28:06] Tommy Thomas: On the same line of thought, if you were developing a dashboard for a nonprofit to get a look at their health, what are some of your dials going to be?
[00:28:19] Alvin Sanders: I would want to look at how they do with staff development and stability.
What kind of people are they hiring? What kind of things are these people doing? Are they organized correctly? The org chart, things of that nature. I would also want to look at their systems and how they do things and what are their processes and how do they get things done. What are the tools that they use?
Are they correctly dialed into technology and things of that nature to help them achieve their mission? And as well as the obvious one is financially, how are they doing financially? What’s their revenue generation look like? Are they built? Really, if you take those things together, then you can make a determination. Are they built for sustainability for the long haul?
[00:29:07] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back to a time and tell your younger self one thing, what would that be?
[00:29:12] Alvin Sanders: Relax. Relax. Not that serious. Slow down. Why are you running so hard? Where are you trying to go? Stop and smell the roses.
[00:29:26] Tommy Thomas: If you had a do-over in your career, what would it be?
[00:29:30] Alvin Sanders: I would say in the generality, there were probably opportunities. Here let me give a little bit of context. Okay. God is very merciful to me in that there are opportunities that I turned down, which for whatever reason, circle back to me. And then the second or third time, I recognized it for the opportunity that it was, and I took it.
So, the one do over, I would say just speaking in generalities, is being able to recognize opportunities for what they are right off the bat. And not having God have to circle back for me.
[00:30:24] Tommy Thomas: I’m thankful to Alvin for taking time from his schedule to join us today. After we stopped recording. I told him that we could have talked for another hour. I really enjoyed the time with him. I’ll post links to Alvin’s work with world impact in the show notes. As well as links to some of the books that he has written.
[00:30:24] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website –https://jobfitmatters.com/podcast/.
If there are topics you’d like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you’ve heard something today that’s worth passing on, please share it with others. You’re already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I’ll be back next week with a new episode until then stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Alvin Sanders - World Impact
Uncommon Church: Community Transformation for the Common Good by Alvin Sanders
Redemptive Poverty Work by Alvin Sanders
Bridging the Diversity Gap: Leading Toward God’s Multi-Ethnic Kingdom by Alvin Sanders
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Alvin’s LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Tom Lin: I had no idea what InterVarsity was when I got to college. A group of sophomores knocked on my door, were persistent, and invited me to Bible study. I checked it out. They were persistent. Again, I joined a small group, so InterVarsity really reached out to me and I had a great experience in a small group Bible study my freshman year.
The community I loved and then I loved doing ministry. I learned how to serve others and reach out to others and minister to others, and I had a blast and just got more involved in and grew as a leader in university.
+++++++++++++++++++
Our guest today is Tom Lin, the Presidency of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. I had the privilege of meeting Tom, when our company, JobfitMatters Executive Search, was retained by the Board of Directors of InterVarsity to conduct the search that brought Tom to be their President. Tom took his undergraduate degree in economics from Harvard.
In addition to his day job as President of InterVarsity, Tom serves on several nonprofit boards. Let's pick up on that conversation.
[00:01:10] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional career, take us back to your childhood. What two or three experiences do you remember as being formative?
[00:01:17] Tom Lin: Looking back at my childhood a couple things come to mind from my young childhood. I remember distinctly in third grade as a child visiting Taiwan. That's the country where my father immigrated, my father and mother immigrated from.
And I'll never forget visiting his hometown in the countryside. His family was a farmer. And it really gave me a sense of who my dad was, the poorest of the poor in the community. He was the only child of eight children to go to elementary school and high school, much less college.
And there was this conversation that I overheard him talk with a friend of his when we were in Taiwan, and he said his friend said, oh yeah what was that school you went to again? I remember how it took you like two hours to walk to school every day? And my dad had told me stories about how he walked five miles to school every day, but I thought he was exaggerating.
And then when his friend literally said, it was like five miles walking to his school every day, it struck me significantly. And I'll never forget that. And I think that just spoke to who my father was, his humility in life. He never felt like he deserved anything. Everything was kind of grace, God's grace in his life.
And he had all these different opportunities as life went on, but he remembers where he came from. And in a lot of ways that shaped me. Generally in my life I don’t think I deserve anything in particular. I try to remember where my dad came from and that kind of simplicity in life and not feeling I'm supposed to be this or that.
It's just, at its core, I'm the son of my father who was a farmer, so anyways, that's shaping, that's a significant experience that I remember.
[00:03:00] Tommy Thomas: How did they get to the states?
[00:03:03] Tom Lin: My dad immigrated after he graduated from college in Taiwan through a scholarship for grad school, so to Mississippi of all places in the late sixties. His college experiences in Mississippi are really interesting stories there as well. Jackson, Mississippi is where he went to graduate school.
[00:03:23] Tommy Thomas: Oh, my goodness.
[00:03:27] Tom Lin: Yeah.
[00:03:28] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like for you?
[00:03:29] Tom Lin: High school was a time of generally a lot of fun. I would say high school was very positive for me. Both from a faith perspective, I was involved in my youth group and given a lot of leadership responsibilities. And that actually was a close-knit community where I got to lead a lot, and that gave me a lot of energy.
I remember organizing things, calling people every week, preparing things. We had a very active youth group of a few dozen people of different ages from pretty much middle school through post-college. And as a young sophomore in high school or junior, I was leading the whole thing.
And yeah, that was an important part of my high school experience. And then in my actual school, that was just, it's a lot of fun. I was active in sports, a lot of extracurriculars. And had a good number of friends. I loved going to school every day. I loved seeing people. I loved sports and being active. So, it was a very positive experience.
[00:04:31] Tommy Thomas: Being Chinese American, did you feel different or were you pretty much one of the crowd?
[00:04:37] Tom Lin: Yeah, certainly at that time and age, I began to understand more of my ethnic background, I went to a school which was majority white for sure.
I was one of the few Asian Americans in my grade. And no, I mean I certainly noticed those dynamics. But if anything, it gave me a lot of experiences being a cross-cultural person every day. I went to a setting that was different from my home or my church, which was an ethnic church.
It was actually a Taiwanese church that I went to. So, I would cross cultures every day. And it certainly has helped me as an adult in my career as well. These days I'm in a different setting, multiple different settings in different cultures every day, to experience that in high school every day, certainly helped develop me and shape me positively and prepare me for the future.
[00:05:24] Tommy Thomas: You went to Harvard, and you studied economics. Tell us a little bit about that. How does a guy choose economics as a major?
[00:05:30] Tom Lin: I often say, my major is economics, but in many ways my major was InterVarsity. It was the campus ministry I was involved with.
Going to Harvard, which was a generally liberal arts school. So, there's no business major per se. Economics was the most popular major. It was general enough, social science, and so I fell into it. It wasn't that I was passionate about economics. However, I would say looking back now, I see how God used it.
I've been in pretty much full-time vocational ministry most of my life, with the exception of a few years, and economics helps me think about systems, systematically about things. Trends help me analyze things, analyze this macro and micro.
I think economics, certainly starting economics certainly helps me with today. I would not have made that connection though if you just assumed that I never use economics anymore, but I do use some of the ways you're taught to think.
[00:06:33] Tommy Thomas: How did you connect with InterVarsity?
[00:06:36] Tom Lin: It was InterVarsity who reached out to me. I had no idea what InterVarsity was when I got to college and a group of sophomores knocked on my door, were persistent, and invited me to Bible study. I checked it out. They were persistent. Again, I joined a small group, so InterVarsity really reached out to me and I had a great experience in a small group Bible study my freshman year.
The community I loved and then I loved doing ministry. I learned how to serve others and reach out to others and minister to others, and I had a blast and just got more involved in and grew as a leader in university.
[00:07:12] Tommy Thomas: Early in your career, you helped establish IFES in Mongolia. What was that like and what was the hardest part of that?
[00:07:22] Tom Lin: Yeah, so in the early 2000’s, my wife, Nancy and I went to Mongolia, and it was a context which really was a pioneering context, we call it. There's not much Christian ministry going on. The Bible was translated in the year 2000. We arrived in 2001-2002 where, you know, there was a lot of excitement for this new Bible.
Church planting was going crazy. People were investing a lot in church planting. I would say that was an exciting experience because we were on the front end of a huge decade of growth in the Mongolian church. And yeah, we wanted to go because people needed to hear about Jesus and most Mongolians had never heard of the gospel before.
And so what an opportunity to go and focus on student ministry, campus ministry, specifically planting a new campus ministry movement in Mongolia. And it was Mongolian, the goal was that it would be Mongolian led indigenous, that we'd raise up Mongolian staff and eventually a Mongolian board and praise God that those things happened over a period of time.
[00:08:32] Tommy Thomas: Can you think of anything that you learned there that you've carried forward? Any particular leadership lesson that you still use today?
[00:08:43] Tom Lin: Yeah, many, for sure. I would say in Mongolia we learned a few helpful missiological concepts that I think is helpful for every leader to think about.
One is, you enter with an exit strategy. You never assume you're going to be there forever. Generally, I don't think it's helpful for missionaries to stay in one place forever.
And so, you're always thinking about how I can develop this movement or this organization to be self-sustaining so that it no longer depends on me.
I think that's helpful for any organizational leader, and certainly you're always thinking about succession planning and how do you develop future leaders, and what's your best contribution? And can you pass and delegate your responsibilities to someone else so you can work on something else?
And I think those principles were really helpful. And I think those are some significant lessons and things that continue to hold dearly.
[00:09:41] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to mentoring. That seems to be a theme in a lot of leaders' lives that I speak with. Have you had a particular mentor or has that played a role in your development?
[00:09:52] Tom Lin: It's interesting. I think as a Gen Xer, I'm of a Gen X generation. Growing up I didn't think too much about mentoring. I think the millennials are much more open to it. And particularly, you may have interviewed folks, the millennial Boomer connection is very strong. Gen Z now appreciates mentoring, but Gen Xers, generally, thought we could figure it out ourselves, in a lot of ways.
So, I didn't value it, I would say earlier in my career. And then it wasn't until later that it was interesting. It wasn't until later that I found a mentor that reached out to me. His name is Steve Hayner. He's the former President of InterVarsity in the nineties. And Steve cared for me.
He invited me to his home. He eventually would play a mentoring role, which basically meant in my life of key moments, key decision-making moments in my life. He entered and would give me his advice, or I would ask for it. And yeah, he periodically would show up. I would seek him out when I was trying to decide a career decision or if I had just a significant life question I was wrestling with.
So, Steve would've been one of those mentors. I've had other ones, another one in my life is Leighton Ford. I still do spiritual retreats with him. In fact, I have one coming up soon. And he's been a different kind of mentor, more a spiritual guide in helping me do some reflection in my life.
[00:11:20] Tommy Thomas: Steve and Leighton are two very different personalities.
[00:11:26] Tom Lin: Yes, they are. They are.
[00:11:27] Tommy Thomas: I've had the chance to work with both of them over the years, and as I remember Steve is being so soft spoken and yeah, you wouldn't know he is in the room unless somebody pointed him out and Leighton's a little more forward and a lot more energy in the room when Leighton's in the room.
[00:11:42] Tom Lin: That's right. Yeah. It's certainly different and that's also helpful I think, in mentoring to have different types of leaders as mentors. And yeah, so I feel lucky that these two in particular reached out to me and initiated with me in different ways. And, yeah, I think they played a significant role. For sure.
[00:12:03] Tommy Thomas: Usually if people get to your level, they end up getting most things done through teams. And I'm probably assuming that's true about you. Maybe tell me about what you think was your most dynamic team as you think back over the years. And it could have been in student ministry, it could be an executive ministry.
[00:12:20] Tom Lin: I think I've had the privilege of working with a lot of great teams and I think they're all very dynamic. I think probably one of the most exciting teams and exciting moments was when I directed the Urbana 2012 conference, my first Urbana event. I directed a huge ambitious event where we're preparing for usually two years in advance for these five days where about 18,000 young people come together to explore global missions.
Right? And so many facets of it from operations, the communications to recruitment, to vision casting and budgeting for it. And it was like running an organization. The team we had needed to be dynamic, needed to be collaborative, needed to work with urgency at times. And, we did it and it was a phenomenal conference. And so that was probably one of the more dynamic teams, and team experiences.
[00:13:29] Tommy Thomas: What's the most ambitious project you've ever undertaken with a team?
[00:13:34] Tom Lin: That one I would say was one for sure. To have key goals like seeing 18,000 people come or partnering with 300 organizations.
We had come to the event, managing thousands of volunteers and then a world class program. There was a particular moment at the Urbana. We called it the join in where we partnered with World Vision. What we did was we assembled something like, I believe it was to speak accurately, I want 40,000 - 50,000 medical caregiver kits within a 90-minute program time slot at the conference. These would eventually be shipped to Swaziland and other parts in Africa for AIDS caregivers to use. And we did it at Urbana in this massive stadium with trucks on the stage.
And it was just a really ambitious undertaking. And within 90 minutes, these 18,000 students put together 40,000 kits. It was an active experiential event, and then these trucks pulled away with being fully loaded with these kits and they were like on its way to Swaziland. It was pretty amazing how it all came together, but it took a lot of coordination, a lot of preparation to pull that off.
That was a fun project within the bigger Urbana project.
[00:15:04] Tommy Thomas: Let's switch a little bit. Our topic overall is next generation leadership. What are some of the things either that you're doing or that you're seeing being done that you think is contributing to this next generation moving into place?
[00:15:18] Tom Lin: Yeah. I ask that a lot. Our bread and butter. What we do is develop the next generation of leaders. We do that on campus. We do that with student leaders. I think one way I'll answer the question is how we develop the next generation of leaders within our organization because I get asked that question a lot in terms of staff or employees.
I think the keys are really around first intentionality. I think you have to be intentional. It doesn't just happen. People often say to me I don't have any, I don't have any potential people, so what can I do? I think it takes intentionality to build your pool of people and then to invest in the right people within that pool.
So, intentionality creating, and that might include creating access. So every year I host what I call the president's living room consultation. I bring about a dozen or more emerging next generation leaders into my home for three days in the living room when we talk. And I give them access to me and I give them access to other leaders.
And I think sometimes the key to developing future leaders or giving them access to current leaders you have to be intentional though. And then I think another thing we do is we offer stretch assignments. So, to develop the next generation, you have to give them tough assignments. So, it's going to be hard for them to develop into, let's say, the next level without giving them risk taking opportunities to stretch assignments where they can prove themselves or learn from tough assignments in addition to their day job. So anyways, those would be a couple things. I'd say, yeah, intentionality, access stretch assignments.
[00:16:58] Tommy Thomas: You've mentioned two or three generations here, so you’ve got the boomers and the Xers, and have you noticed any difference in their proclivity to take risks?
[00:17:09] Tom Lin: Oh yes. Yeah, of course. Generally, for the millennials, again generally speaking, and generational theorists would agree with this, and studies have been done.
Because of their upbringing. And the millennials have seen mostly prosperity and the rapid advance of certain technologies, iPhone generations, such apps that can solve the world's biggest problems generally. They're willing to take risks because they think, and they see the opportunity to change the world.
They can do it. And so, their proclivity to take risks is, they're fine with it. Gen Z, the current student generation. They've seen some hard things. They've experienced the great recession. The world's not their oyster and everything's not come easy.
Mental health crisis. So generally, they're more risk averse. And what used to be when, to millennia you might say, hey everyone charge. Let's go, let's take the mountain, let's take the hill. You can do it. For the Gen Z folks, that's not an effective rallying cry.
Usually, you need to say let's do it together. We're behind you. You have the support you need. I'll be your mentor along the way. Or you lower yourself and take the big goal, and you break it up into three pieces and you say, hey the first step is this. You can do that first step and then we'll do the second step. And so, it is different.
[00:18:33] Tommy Thomas: Maybe a more global leadership question. What's the most dangerous behavior or trait that you've observed that can derail a leader's life or career?
[00:18:47] Tom Lin: Yeah. There have been studies done about derailers. I think for me I don't see it so much as you do this one big thing, or you have one big trait and it's going to all of a sudden sneak up on you and it's going to blow up in your face or something. For me the most dangerous behavior is the collection of small decisions that a leader makes. Small steps. So, for example, I think when it comes to money, we can easily get tempted to have a deserving mindset. I deserve that thing. I worked so hard, that little decision or I should need that thing because I'm a little tired. I deserve a little bit of this or that. And the collection of small choices adds up to one day, a leader can be tempted to take something or make a decision that they shouldn't do. Or another example is, my time is valuable. They've heard that a leader and you begin to buy into that, and you start making little decisions.
They start off innocently. My time is valuable, so therefore I should do X or Y or the organization should do X extra Y for me. And then where's the fine line, the line starts to blur and it goes into my time. I am so valuable that I should be able to do extra Y.
So, a collection of small choices can easily build toward the point where a leader really does something completely unethical or, yeah, derails them completely. I always tell people to watch the small steps and the small decisions you're making.
[00:20:24] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anyone's ever given you?
[00:20:43] Tom Lin: Yeah, maybe I'll just share something more recent I've been thinking about. I was reading Bob Iger, the CEO of Disney, his autobiography, and one of the things he mentions is, people don't want to follow leaders who are pessimistic. It's not a formula for success. Generally, people's inclinations, they want to follow a leader who's hopeful who is optimistic about his future. And I think generally that's something that I've abided by, even if there are challenges, people want to hear about the hope you have. People want to follow a leader who's optimistic about what's to come, who can paint a picture of why the future, or the preferred future, is better than today's future to today's reality. And I think that's so true and so important in leadership.
[00:21:33] Tommy Thomas: What do you do and maybe what do you and Nancy do for work-life balance?
[00:21:39] Tom Lin: Oh, work-life balance. I think. You know how I view that question? I think to me, work life balance is you have to work at both. You have to work at your work and you have to work at home, or your personal life, right? So it's not so much you work here and then you just veg out, so I think you work at both. And for me it meant I'm committed. I had both children at home. Now I have one at home, but I've had both at home for quite a while. I was committed to evening dinners at home, no matter what work demands were. I was committed to evening dinners at home when I was in town and I didn't carry work into dinner. And if I really needed to do work later at night, I'd wait till the kids go to sleep. So very careful about my evenings and then maintaining a Sabbath, there's a reason why the Lord commanded us to keep Sabbath and observe a Sabbath. And I think that really helps having the discipline of Sabbath where you're making sure you rest one day a week.
[00:22:35] Tommy Thomas: What are you most excited about in life right now?
[00:22:40] Tom Lin: On one hand with my family, I'm excited about my kids growing up. One of my daughters is in college, and I'm in college ministry, so it's an exciting time for me to see my own daughter enter into this fantastic life stage.
I think in work generally I'm excited about what we call our 2030 calling a vision. At InterVarsity we have a vision to see every campus in the country reach with the gospel. It's a fantastic vision for 2030 that is bigger than just InterVarsity. It's collaborative. We're working with over a hundred different organizations to see every campus have a gospel movement.
And that's really exciting for me because it gets at my planting my experience in Mongolia wanting to see the unreached reached, kind of mentality. And as well as, I love campus ministry, so I want to see other organizations and churches get excited about campus ministry.
And then ultimately, I want to see students' lives transformed and more students reached. It is a combination of a lot of things that go into this 2030 calling and that's what's making life exciting right now?
[00:23:52] Tommy Thomas: Let's reflect back a minute. The last two or three years we've lost two of your peers have gone on to be with the Lord and Steve Douglass and Denny Rydberg, and I know you've worked alongside those men and with them. What kind of reflections do you have on their leadership?
[00:24:10] Tom Lin: Oh I would say Denny I did not have the chance to work with as closely, but we certainly collaborate a lot with the current CEO of Young Life, Newt Crenshaw. I would say with Steve Douglas, I did have a good number of years where I worked alongside. We met together to pray and fellowship with our spouses twice a year.
My reflection on Steve is what I was saying about the small decisions equaling big ones. He was very aware that Steve was humble. One of the things he would do is he would decline a first grade up first-class upgrade on airplanes his entire life. He traveled a lot, but he would always decline an upgrade.
I think he was very aware that even the small choices we make where we subtly begin to think that we deserve an upgrade or an extra treat or whatever, he wanted to be a model of simplicity and humility. And so, he would decline it every time. That's amazing. And then the second thing that struck me about Steve Douglas is he's always sharing the gospel, always sharing the gospel, always wherever he was, whether it wa at a restaurant with a waiter, a waitress, on an airplane, in a store. He would always just talk to somebody and find a way to share the gospel, and it was just very inspiring.
[00:25:29] Tommy Thomas: What are you going to say next week when you get a call from somebody that either thinks they want to be a leader, or maybe they're already in the leadership track and they're having second thoughts? How are you counseling our NextGen leaders?
[00:25:47] Tom Lin: I think for NextGen, there's something about perseverance and paying the cost. So, I do think what I would counsel them is and it's harder to do I think in our North American context some of our majority world friends and leaders understand suffering and the role of suffering more.
I think we're still less developed in that area. I would say I would counsel, persevere, especially in today's day and age as a leader, you are going to face extreme pressures, criticism, and reasons to hang it up. Reasons to just say I can't do it anymore. And I think I would say, keep on building the support team around you.
Who's got your back? Who is there for you? But when you engage in suffering, just know that's normal. And it happens. It will come. And that's part of the territory in leadership. So, I think that's how our counsel is just encouraging them to persevere and to understand it is a part of the reality, but you don't have to go through it alone.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
I'm grateful to Tom Lin for taking time from his busy schedule to visit with us today. Why are we taking a break next week? It's 4th of July week holiday. And my experience has been that a lot of us take time away from work to spend time with family and friends. We will return the week of July 10 with our next episode.
In the meantime, stay the course on doing your part to make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
InterVarsity Christian Fellowship
Urbana
IFES - International Fellowship of Evangelical Students
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Alec Hill: There is something remarkable when you put it on paper, how you create a distance from yourself. It objectifies it, and you're able to stay away from it a little bit. And this has been shown in research out of the University of Texas. So, I'm a real believer in journaling.
It has been a constant and continues to be a regular outlet for me with my pain, with my lamentations, with my anger. And it releases me. I don't know. It's just been a discipline for what now - 50 plus years and it's one of God's gifts to me.
++++++++++++++++
[00:00:31] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Alec Hill, the President Emeritus of InterVarsity USA. For regular listeners, you may remember Alec from Episodes 18 and 19 where he and a former board chair at InterVarsity discussed the CEO/ Board Chair working relationship.
Alec was President of InterVarsity for 14 years before retiring for health-related reasons. When I recruited him to be the President of InterVarsity, he was the Dean of the School of Business and Economics at Seattle Pacific University. Alec took his law degree from the University of Washington.
Alec, welcome back to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:06] Alec Hill: It's always good to be with you.
[00:01:10] Tommy Thomas: Episodes 18 and 19. Those seem like a long time ago.
[00:01:14] Alec Hill: To you, time is, it has a different clip for me, but yeah, for you it's, you're up to a hundred something now.
[00:01:20] Tommy Thomas: We'll, yeah, I think this we'll be 92 or 93, and yeah, we'll hit Episode 100 sometime in early August.
I was trying to remember that quote. That guy told me one time about the early episodes. He said, “The bad news was they probably wouldn't be very good, but the good news was you won't have very many listeners then either”. So, I don't know, some of the early episodes might have been like that.
Thank you for coming back. I read the article that you posted on the Christian Leadership Alliance Blog and I was intrigued by it knowing a little bit about your history there, I thought I have to get Alec back. Maybe take us into that.
As I remember, the name of the article was Finding Gold in Manure.
[00:01:59] Alec Hill: Yeah, so the image is when we lose a wedding ring down the sink, we dive in, and even if it goes down the toilet, we go in because the ring is so valuable. So the metaphor is, as leaders, when we go through really bad experiences, I mean we think back on the two or three worst experiences we've ever had as leaders, whether they are our fault or not.
And the temptation is just to let the ring go. And not dive, do the dive. But what I've learned is that when you go and you find the ring maybe 80% of its draws are manure, but 20% of it is pure gold. And so often in our worst moments in the suffering that we have we find great meaning.
And if we don't learn those lessons at that point in time they'll come back and bite us again.
“If we pause and reflect long enough, pain is a great teacher. Our characters can be transformed more through a day of suffering than a month of study”
[00:02:42] Tommy Thomas: I think one of your quotes was “If we pause and reflect long enough, pain is a great teacher. Our characters can be transformed more through a day of suffering than a month of study”
[00:02:53] Alec Hill: Yeah, I think that's really true. And I say that, I wrote that as an academic, right? So, I believe in study, but clearly if we, you by the way, you can learn poorly from pain if pain, if you reacted adversely to it. If you deny it. Or if you're triumphal in some ways over it, if you don't walk right through it head on it's a totally negative experience.
But if you actually can redeem the pain is awful. Pain sucks. I'm a two-time cancer survivor, including a bone marrow transplant. I know about pain. So pain is no fun. And likewise, leadership failures. And when people accuse you of being incompetent or immoral that's no fun.
But there's a side to this where you have to learn the lessons from that, and then you become a better person and a better leader.
[00:03:37] Tommy Thomas: So why do you think it's so hard for us to reflect on past painful situations?
[00:03:43] Alec Hill: Oh my goodness. I think we hate pain. We're wired to hate pain. Part of my bone marrow transplant was a spinal tap, and I was reflecting on that the other day.
And a spinal tap is one of the worst procedures you can ever have, right? They're going in through your back with a needle and they're trying not to hit nerves, and of course they do. I don't want to think about the spinal tap, but what the spinal tap told the doctors was that I didn't have certain conditions so they were able to go ahead with the treatment.
And it was a positive treatment with a lot of pain. And I think, again, that's not a bad image here for these. And what I would've asked our listeners to think about is the one worst experience you've ever had as a leader where everything went wrong, where everybody thought you were an idiot or an immoral person.
And they lost confidence in you when you came in a room you had, they looked like they had knives out and they were suspicious of you. And that's the moment that we want to capture in this podcast.
[00:04:33] Tommy Thomas: But take me back to some of the other painful experiences. A man with as much leadership as you've had, both at Seattle Pacific and InterVarsity no doubt has had several painful days.
[00:04:44] Alec Hill: Two of my worst moments or months, or even in one case years, one involved, and this is a common one, hiring someone to my senior team who didn't work out.
And the person was popular and well liked and I had to let the person go. And then when I let the person go, I couldn't tell all my reasons for doing so when people ask questions. So, you look like you are incompetent in making the hire. You are incompetent in making the dismissal. You're being disingenuous because you're withholding information that few people feel they have the right to have.
And you feel like a failure on all counts. I think that particular situation lasted for several months when I just was underwater. And people again lost confidence in me. I think the second one was a more dramatic one, and it involved more people conflict between a senior leader and a director below a report to that person and it blew up.
It involved race and gender and all sorts of things, and I didn't particularly handle it well in terms of how I processed and dealt with it, and that pain lasted for a year and a half. And my sort of, I think the sense of my incompetence and how I handled it I felt acutely was the first time I'd gone to see a counselor.
I was having dreams. It was one of those completely underwater experiences. That was worse than a spinal tap. If I could put it that way. It was worse. And feeling responsible for allowing people to get hurt that if I'd handled things differently there would've been a lot less hurt in other people's lives.
And this is what, 15-20 years ago. I still feel this acutely to this day. So again, my hypothesis, Tommy, is that every leader, every senior leader has a situation like that, that when you ask them what is the main pain point, the worst moment of your leadership time, they have one of these.
And that's the kind of situation where you. Your temptation is just to bar the door. Never think about it, just deny it. You don't deny it, but you just relegate it. But the thing is, I learned a lot about myself both good and bad. Through that, I learned about the positives, I learned about my resilience.
I came to work every day when I felt like people were extremely doubting me. And I didn't know I had that kind of resilience. So that's one positive aspect of it.
[00:07:00] Tommy Thomas: So you mentioned you went to the counselor for the first time. Was that a hard thing to do to make that appointment?
[00:07:05] Alec Hill: No, I'm not proud about, I don't, I'm not macho in the sense that I wouldn't go to a counselor. I just never felt that kind of need. But I was so far out of it and self-doubting. The disequilibrium in my life was so great. I didn't even know where the ground was, and so I just needed someone to tell me I wasn't crazy, right?
And to assure me that this will over time improve because I think when we get into a hopeless spiral as leaders and this is why, as Tommy, you've seen people quit. You've seen people fired there. It's dark. It's just really dark and all of the lightness when you first take a job in senior leadership, you go, why in the world did I ever do this?
There's so much pain associated with these senior roles of vicarious suffering for the community. Not to mention my own mistakes that you go, this is overwhelming.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:07:59] Tommy Thomas: I read a lot of Joyce Meyers. She’s a good writer. And she talks about, in one of her articles, something called the Judas Kiss Test, the test of being betrayed by friends we have loved, respected, and trusted. I guess my hunch is that most people in leadership, who've been there very long, have had an experience like this. Have you had one of those and how did you deal with it?
[00:08:20] Alec Hill: I don't know if betrayal is the word, I would use the word undercut.
I have been undercut and it is a horrible feeling with someone who you reasonably expect loyalty. And a common sort of friend who goes around you to do something that is intentionally harmful. It's a smack of ice. Remember the ads where they would put the ice buckets on people and they would, the ice shower or whatever it was?
That's one of those experiences. So, I think that's another example of the kind of pain that leaders experience. When who you thought was a friend turns out to be someone who's out to get you. And it's a horrible, lonely spot. And I think, I'm reading about David and King Saul now, and of course, Saul threw spears at David, he did all sorts of things, when David had done nothing wrong.
And how did David handle that without killing Saul when he had the opportunity or taking revenge? That's what we, and that's the Christ-like characteristic of not being naive and saying it isn't there and not confronting it. We have to do those things, but not taking, not seeking vengeance or vindication.
I think when we seek our own vindication, where we run into trouble that's the Lord's job, but we have to be resilient. We have to call it out. We have to not pretend it's not there. But when you don't, you can't, when you get in a hole, when somebody betrays you, you can't really vindicate yourself.
And that's really hard. Others have to do that for you, and the Lord has to do it. I had one situation. I'm shifting gears. I'm just thinking about where my vindication probably took five years and it wasn't complete. But I did see some measure of vindication. I had one person who told me that I was a pretty bad person and a bad leader.
Come back several years later and say that she understood why I did what I did. And the story on the street had changed during those years, but it was a very slow. I wanted to fix it a lot quicker. Someone explained it’s like when you hit a feather pillow and it explodes and goes all over the place.
It's like trying to, when your reputation is out, you're trying to recapture all those feathers and you can't, and if you're a control person, it's really hard.
[00:10:36] Tommy Thomas: You write a lot. Your articles are many, you have published two books. But do you journal much about your inner feelings and if so, what have you learned from that?
[00:10:46] Alec Hill: It's funny you should ask because I am now transcribing all my journals from when I was 17 years old, so I'm now up to age 29 in transcribing. There were those dark nights of the soul where I would wake up at 2:00 AM and I would journal for two hours.
And there is something remarkable when you put it on paper, how you create a distance from yourself. It objectifies it, and you're able to stay away from it a little bit. And this has been shown in research out of the University of Texas.
So, I'm a real believer in journaling. It has been a constant and continues to be a regular outlet for me with my pain, with my lamentations, with my anger. And it releases me. I don't know. It's just been a discipline for what now - 50 plus years and it's one of God's gifts to me.
[00:11:34] Tommy Thomas: I've been a journaler if that's the word you use for it - maybe not 50 years, but a long time. And this morning I woke up with a couple of dissonant thoughts and I just, I went to my journal and I said, I don't feel much like journaling today, and then I went through those and yeah, after about 30 minutes, I came away with maybe a little bit of distance and maybe a feeling that this is not so bad after all
[00:12:00] Alec Hill: Getting back to our theme of gold and manure, one of the things that journaling does is it makes you crystallize your thoughts and put them in writing, and that's where you really learn your gold is the goal.
Gold is by reflection. If we don't reflect and so many leaders aren't reflective, I'm by temperament. I'm a future-oriented person. So, reflection is hard for me, and part of the reason I journal is because it compels me. To reflect and what are the lessons learned from this last experience?
[00:12:27] Tommy Thomas: I was reading, I don’t know if it was a blog or what, by Bob Haskins, the President of One Hope down in Florida. And he wrote, surround yourself with people who know you better than you know yourself and will tell you the truth out of love. This is how we grow. Is the digging in manure, is that a solo act, or is that a cadre or a cohort of friends?
[00:12:50] Alec Hill: It's a very small group of trusted friends. And I'd say it's both. I do think you have to do the solo reflection as we were just talking about journaling, but clearly. I had a chief of staff who I gave total permission after every meeting, after every event, after every conference, after every conversation to tell me what he heard.
And he would be quite candid with me. And it was painful. And also, I had a number two person who was my COO, and he had the same green light. And what I found is that they would often tell me things that I did or didn't do in a meeting, and I didn't always agree with them, but I gave them the green light.
So, in a sense, I was increasing my level of pain and discomfort by telling these two that they could say to me whatever they saw, but I trusted them that much. And then there was a third person, a VP who I also trusted at that level. And I think you can only take so much beating on your bodies, like being boxed.
It looks like being a boxer and some of these are poundings you take when you open yourself up. But the right chastisement from a friend who's loyal and trusting is again the pathway to growth. But you can only take so much of it. I think there it's a limited dose and that's what has to be a limited number of people, that kind of vulnerability.
[00:14:03] Tommy Thomas: I'm a big fan of Nicky Gumball and his Bible in One Year. I'm in that maybe not every day but fairly regular. And recently, one of his comments was,
“Confrontation is not something that I find easy. It is crucial to find the right approach, the right words for the job, or to use a golfing analogy, it's like the skill of knowing which club to use. Those who are skilled at confrontation have a great variety of approaches and words and know when and how to use the appropriate one”.
What have you learned about confrontation through your many years in senior leadership?
[00:14:41] Alec Hill: First of all, I'm intuitively lousy at it. I'm an angiogram three. I like to be liked. I think that I can fix every situation with charm and with compassion and pastoral skills, and when it comes to really confronting people, I had a VP who was fabulous at it, and I learned a lot from Jim. It was really funny. Jim had people who he corrected all the time who loved him. And I asked him How do you do that? How do you speak that kind of truth? It was because he did love them, but he also wouldn't drop bombs on them. He would chunk it out and give them criticism or confrontation in the short term.
Now, I will say this, I had a bone marrow transplant eight years ago, and I am much better at confrontation now than I was before. And I think in part what the cancer taught me was life is short. Be more candid, be blunter. And my wife looks at me sometimes and she goes, is this really you?
Cancer changed me for the good in this regard in that I'm a better confronter and I'm less worried about what people think of me.
Because cancer changed me for the good in this regard in that I'm a better confronter and I'm less worried about what people think of me. Maybe the part of that's aging too, and I don't have a position that I have to defend anymore. I think the other thing is I had to let my reputation and sense of competence, my public competence die when I was at InterVarsity and that's liberating.
It sounds crazy to think that when you give up your reputation, it's going to be freeing, but I think that process took 20 years.
++++++++++
[00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: I know you retired from InterVarsity for health reasons. Did you find when, and I'm sure that was foremost in your mind, but I always like to ask people who've been longtime successful leaders, was much of your identity tied up in being the president of InterVarsity?
[00:16:22] Alec Hill: You used the word, successful leader. I'd say I have a mixed report card, to be honest. So that's the first thing I just want to say. This is where the cancer's been a real gift. So, when you almost die, when you're expected to die, you get your identity detached from your role real quickly.
And when I left, I was diagnosed, and I was gone six weeks later. And then I had a year of isolation to think about all these things. But I do think I was always aware in the 14 years at InterVarsity that my identity could be too wrapped up. So, I consciously tried to work on that issue.
It was something I named, and I recognized it as a great temptation. So, I wasn't perfect, but I think I always recognized that I had been given the baton for a period of time. I would pass it off. It wasn't proprietary and this is what I did, not who, what, not who I am, not who I was.
And that was liberating, but the claw of the temptation kept reaching up to grab me. I will say this, Tommy, I was surprised when I left after 14 years with the cancer, how little the identity trapped me. I didn't have this longing for the perks of the job. I didn't worry when people didn't recognize me.
I think I'm so grateful to be alive. So, I think that was the gift of the cancer, right? I didn’t have what a lot of leaders have when they leave, that huge identity crisis. I was trying to live, and so it just, it went underground. It didn't seem very important.
And then by the time I came out, I had a different identity. Yeah so, the identity question's a tricky one for me because what would I have been like without the cancer? I don't know.
[00:17:59] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. Now I was talking recently to a pastor of a huge megachurch, and he retired maybe three years ago. From all appearances, it seems to have been a very successful transition, and this guy has always been, in my mind, the epitome of humility, and yet he was candid enough to say, Tommy, it is disappointing that the phone doesn't ring as much anymore. That he said that, and I just, I was taken back.
I thought, wow, this guy I would've thought if anybody probably had mastered that it would've been him, and yet he said, the phone doesn't ring anymore. And every now and then, that kind of bothers me.
[00:18:36] Alec Hill: Back to the gold image here. I get this bone marrow cancer and I'm in isolation.
I come off disability after six months, but I can't be with people because I'm in isolation for another six months. The COO who's acting is the interim president, Jim and I agreed I would be a mentor for six months and then I could do a real job. During those six months, I had 12-14 staff from InterVarsity I was talking with monthly.
And I discovered this pastoral sense of who I am. And now that's seven years ago. And so, I never got the sense of being, I worked really hard on what my new purpose was. It was the next generation of leaders, and it was investing in them. The phone rings all the time, but it's because I have, I think largely because I proactively put myself out as a mentor and the richness of these really.
I have one guy who I've been with for six, seven years now who just sent me a Mariners jersey. Edgar Martinez is a gift for the year. Totally unexpected because we're both baseball fans and I just am thankful for the depth of these friendships. And then other opportunities have opened up as well.
So, I do think that this is back where near death when you face mortality, there's a sense of which everything is a grace. And everything is a gift. So, I have a deeply appreciative sense and I don't feel, the glass is more than half full. It's full. It's a full glass.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:19:54] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. I want to switch to something maybe a little more global.
A study by the UK Finance and Mental Health First Aid Department in England said that 83% of the City of London Financial Services employees, so they've considered changing jobs due to stress on their mental health. 83%. How prevalent do you think that might be in the nonprofit sector in the United States?
[00:20:19] Alec Hill: I think it's very prevalent. I think when you have undoable missions, which you know, any mission's worth of salt is huge, it's going to transform the world. And you combine that with limited resources, which nonprofits have much more than for-profits, right? You have little money. And you have lots of responsibility which is a pivot point for depression, for feeling like a failure.
When you throw into that Covid and the fragility of this new generation coming up in terms of anxiety and mental health, and I actually just wrote a piece on my own anxiety issues I think it's a recipe for problems within nonprofits. And I think generationally, each generation approaches it differently.
You have the stoic generation, then you have, as I say, the more the people want to talk about it all the time, it's not going to go away. This is a real problem.
[00:21:11] Tommy Thomas: Here's a Mother Teresa quote, I'd like to respond to. Mother Teresa said, I'm not called to be successful, but I'm called to be faithful.
[00:21:20] Alec Hill: Amen. And we can't guarantee the outcomes. We can guarantee the process. I do think though, when she talks about being faithful, another word for that is accountable. And so accountable, just to be faithful doesn't mean that we're freelancing it or that we cannot think about the consequences of our actions.
We are accountable but again, we are accountable to be faithful in what we do, not in exactly what happens. And I think as I reflect back, Tommy, I’m a real strategic planner and I love putting out goals and going for them. I still do, but I'm softening on this one. I think that I will say this, that I think what we said is our strategic plans were always dynamic.
And that we would, by the time we were done, about a third of it would be rewritten. The mistake a lot of groups make with strategic plans is they're like cement. You're relying on the Lord for wisdom. When you write them up, you're dreaming about what can be, and then you have to hold them real loosely and you have to constantly change them and edit them.
I think the sense of being faithful, that context is we're going to work together towards this common mission in these four or five areas for the next three or four years. But we don't know how it's going to turn out. Let me give you an example. At one point, InterVarsity Press, we had hoped that it would grow by X percent and then we hit the great recession of 2009 and there was no way we were even going to get back to zero, right?
Because the publishing industry was underwater. We rewrote the goal. And the goal went down, I'm going to guess 35, 40% and we hit that goal well because of the external environment, because the way you don't control, you have to. So, for us, that was a feel-good, even though it was a loss. Rather than that, we failed.
[00:23:06] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we probably learned more from our mistakes and our successes. If that's the truth, why? Why are most of us so afraid to make a mistake?
[00:23:13] Alec Hill: I'll go back to the spinal tap. We hate pain. And, this false self-truth, back to identity, that we want to project a certain image of who we are and how competent we are, especially people like me.
When we realize there's a gap between what we project and who we are, we can do one of two things. We can honestly admit that, or we can fake it. And faking it really takes a toll. You've seen this, I've seen this. Leaders who are faking it are living on the edge. They become unkind, they become self-protective, they become vindictive, and they don't even recognize themselves in the mirror.
So it's really hard to remain truly human as a senior leader if you're a perfectionist, if you're a control freak, if you value your public image, all those things have to die. And it is a very, and the crucifixion of those is very painful and it's ongoing.
[00:24:13] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would you say?
[00:24:19] Alec Hill: I think I would say care less about what other people think. And back, this is a common theme here. Don't think so highly of yourself. Relax. Enjoy the ride. I think future-oriented people like me tend to miss the aha moments and the savoring of moments.
And I've always been pretty relational, but I'm so goal-oriented and so project oriented that I think that I miss a lot of the magic and the splendor along the way. And again, cancer taught me to slow down and savor. One of the things I do daily, pretty much daily is there's a, near us, there's a city park and I'll go over, it's a five-minute walk and there's a grove of cedar trees and I just go through that cedar tree and I just stop and smell them and I touch them and I just have this sort of sense of God as creator and father.
And so I think that's a new wrinkle for me, because I've always been in such a hurry.
[00:25:15] Tommy Thomas: So, what are you most excited about in life right now?
[00:25:17] Alec Hill: Grandchildren, of course. I've got three of them and they're just wonderful. I think I just turned 70 and when I first had the bone marrow transplant, I didn't know that I would live to 70 and now I'm thinking I could live to 80.
The whole journey of full-body radiation chemo has taken some years off my life. So, there's this sense of living in a cycle of appreciation and joy and just being relatively healthy. That's also a real joy. I had two new hips put in a couple of years ago because the full-body radiation killed off some of the blood flow to the head of the joint, and I'm going to have more of those coming up.
But I think the awe of my wife, having been married for 45 years, and grandkids. I'd say little kids just light up. Every they're like little energy buckets. They're like batteries. And so even though I come back with a sore back and bent knees and all that stuff, it's just wonderful.
So I think that's what I'm most excited about. And I think the other part on the professional side is I'm not retired. I'm working 30 hours plus a week. And one of the big changes in my life, Tommy, has been from having one activity, which is whether it's being a dean or regional director for world relief or doing InterVarsity to having this portfolio of activities.
And so I've got a lot of buckets. I have multiple bosses. I teach at Regent College in Canada. I write for Tammy Heim. There were boards in the past, and so the challenge now is, how do you take all of these activities and make them flow so that they work?
And I will say this, everything I do is pretty much, it's fun, wonderful, mission-driven stuff. But what I do miss is doing a mission together with a team. And I think that's the one thing about leading is that, you see a goal, you're doing a mission and you're doing it with a group of people you love.
That is really a special time. But that time has passed for me. I've accepted that, but that's probably the one thing I do miss.
[00:27:23] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice anyone's ever given you?
[00:27:25] Alec Hill: I thought about this one. I think that freedom comes through surrender. And I think that this is counterintuitive, but that when we become slaves of Christ, we truly find our freedom because he's a good master.
And for someone like me who likes to maintain control, it's a very hard lesson to learn. But when I do it well, there is such lightness because I'm not carrying the world. I'm not a false Messiah carrying around all the problems of the world and being responsible for them. I'm actually surrendering to the true Messiah who carries the world on his shoulders and I'm under his wings, and therefore I'm in the right flow, doing the right things, but I'm not catching all the headwinds like he does.
All the crap, all the hell that he caught through the, through his who he was. And that is a really good place to be.
[00:28:25] Tommy Thomas: If you were a judge or I guess one of the wealthy people on the Shark Tank and nonprofit people came to you with their ideas. What have you got to know before you invest?
[00:28:35] Alec Hill: I would ask them if they have a coherent strategic plan.
I would ask them to describe their last executive director transition.
I would ask them do they do an annual evaluation of the executive director regularly, consistently?
I would ask them, are all your trustees giving?
And describe how you handled your latest crisis. What was the crisis and how'd you handle it? Now hopefully they'd be honest and tell me, but, if they came up with a sense that they weren't doing these things well, they were sloppy. We did a review a couple of years ago, the strategic plan.
Yeah. We've got five or six ideas on a sheet of paper. I'm not going to invest in that nonprofit. So I think there are basic principles of I would, I'd also ask, do you regularly survey your employees? And what do you do with that feedback? So what kind of feedback loops do you have?
How are you improving yourself as an organization, as a ministry, as a board? And if they don't, if they look at you blankly, then you just go, so I'd ask some governance questions as well. But you're trying to get to culture and what they're really like in their default manner.
[00:29:45] Tommy Thomas: If you were creating a dashboard that at a glance would give you some indication of the health of a nonprofit what would some of the gauges be?
[00:29:53] Alec Hill: This is a great question. I think the first thing is, are there metrics tied to their strategic plan?
And it sounds like a really simple thing, but it's amazing how many metrics are in these dashboards that aren't directly tied to the strategic plan goals. So that's a real basic one. My advice is if you have a board that's used a certain dashboard for years, but you have a new strategic plan, you're going to have to rewrite your dashboard.
And that people, sometimes they don't, they disconnect the two. I think I would want to know is do you have three-plus months of reserves and finances? I think that's a big one, and I would want to try now, once you get over six months, it gets a little way too much. But if you're under three months in your reserves, there's instability and a scarcity mentality that can set in that's unhealthy.
I want to look at debt, if there's a line of credit. I think that, obviously the finances, but those are a couple of particular things. And then I mentioned this in your earlier question, but I think the employee satisfaction survey, I, as a board member, I'd really want to look to see that there's an annual regular and I want to see what, how the employees are feeling about the organization.
Boards can be too connected with the organization, but they can also be disconnected. And I think the evaluation of the executive director and employee satisfaction surveys give you a sense of the health of it. I think it should be on the President, the Executive Director’s plate to be looking at that employee satisfaction survey and making changes and improving year by year.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:31:23] Tommy Thomas: I'm grateful to Alec Hill for being our guest today. His candor and transparency are always encouraging to me. As he mentioned in the podcast, Alec is a frequent contributor to the Christian Leadership Alliance Blog. He's also a published author of two books. Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose and Just Business: Christian Ethics for the Marketplace. We have several links to Alec’s writing in the show notes.
Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes at our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast.
If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising.
If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Living in Bonus Time: Surviving Cancer, Finding New Purpose
Just Business: Christian Ethics for the Marketplace
InterVarsity Press - Alec Hill
The Huffington Post - Alec Hill
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Caryn Ryan: The Chairman walks up to a fence. They're tough, but they're relational, right? They're goal driven, but they're people driven. They stick to a vision of what they have for the organization and for the Board. They tend to be performance oriented. If you have Board Chairs who don't understand the value that the board is supposed to bring it's hard for them to be performance oriented.
But the best Board Chairs really understand deeply what the value this board is bringing to this organization. And therefore, because they understand that they're able to act in that way.
++++++++++++++++
[00:00:39] Tommy Thomas: In this episode, we're going to conclude the conversation that was started with Caryn Ryan, back in Episode 84. In that conversation, Caryn shared her leadership journey from BP/Amoco to the CFO for World Vision International to her current role as Founder and Managing Member of Missionwell. In this episode, Caryn will be sharing lessons on nonprofit board governance that she's learned over the years.
[00:01:15] Tommy Thomas: Let’s change over to board service and board governance for a few minutes. Your friend John Reynolds, who himself is a pretty steeped in this area, he said, if I ever got a chance to talk to you, that we for sure needed to talk about the work you've done and the
Balanced Scorecard for Boards.
Take us into that. I really hadn't thought about that from a board perspective.
[00:01:36] Caryn Ryan: Yeah. That's great. I appreciated John's support in that area at the time. And then also Maggie Bailey, who you may know who was at Point Loma.
[00:01:44] Tommy Thomas: I do know Dr. Bailey.
[00:01:46] Caryn Ryan: She's been another good friend. And somebody who really helped form some of my thoughts on governance. We served on the Board of Open Doors together. So, in 2021 I read Dean Spitzer's book on Transformative Performance Metrics. And it made me start thinking about all the problems of metrics and how might it be possible to have more positive outcomes or avoiding the downsides that he was discussing.
And I started thinking some of those downsides that he mentioned over and over through the book might be surmounted if we applied biblical principles and tried to attach metrics to our faith and that leaders that led from faith might therefore be able to get better outcomes. Let me give you a couple examples.
When you're using metrics in an organization usually tangible and financial results are really at the top, and that doesn't motivate people a lot of the time. And so I began to think maybe if we had some people and relationships at the top, in other words, that sort of from this biblical base of loving people that might be more but motivating and it would certainly be better connected to our faith.
And then getting overconfident in the measures that the measures become the goal. Humility, this is a really important faith-based value and way of life, and perseverance in the face of issues. Those kinds of biblical and ways of living faithfully might help surmount that.
And the fact that a measurement isn't trusted. I was thinking of let your yes be a yes, this idea that people get very defensive regarding failures, I thought in a faithful community, confession is at the core of reconciliation. So, I started thinking about how all these shortcomings had a biblical answer to them.
And I started thinking how could we start to put together an approach that was more biblical and then allowed people's faith to be at the heart of their metrics? And as time went on I started then thinking about, okay let's take the issue of goals. That's taking a step back from the problems of metrics, but metrics are meant to - in a sense, say how we're doing on the journey of goals. So, we have, for instance, a vision. You have a vision to get to the vision, you set big goals, and then when you set the big goals, you have metrics. There're BHAGs sometimes, or there are other types of goals. And I started just then thinking about goals.
Smart Goals
Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Relevant to the mission and vision of the organization and Timebound
And I know you've talked with John Pearson, and hearing good friends, you probably have heard him talk a lot about smart goals. Specific, Measurable, Actionable, Relevant to the mission and vision and Timebound. John uses smart goals a lot and that has impacted so many non-profits and Christian organizations for the good.
It's added a lot of clarity and focus. I began to think about another lens, which is clear goals. Clear goals have come out in the last few years as another way of thinking about goals. And the CLEAR stands for Collaborative, Limited, Emotional, Appreciable and Refinable.
CLEAR Goals
Collaborative, Limited, Emotional, Appreciable and Refinable
If you look in more detail at what those mean, they all come down to how is it that people are motivated and how is it that within a system of organization we set goals that are people sized and yet think about who they are, and it thinks about the people who the basic people are connected to as well.
So I began to think about those clear goals and how people get motivated and start thinking more and more that there might be, again, that role for faith because that approach of the clear goals seemed like it tied a little bit better with the love of people. So let me give you a quick example here.
Let's just see my vision. This is my vision. I'm going to use you a personal example, and this isn't true by the way, but it's just an example. My vision is to travel the world and have lots of adventures, and then I go to the doctor and the doctor says, I need to lose 50 pounds to get to a goal weight. That doctor's saying that you need to get to a goal weight, that's not motivating by itself to a lot of people.
In fact, it might discourage some people or, and some people might take it to extremes, and it might compromise their muscle building and their bone density, etc, and so on. So it can have some unintended consequences. And it might be hard on my family if I stop cooking because I need to lose 50 pounds.
But if my goal is to be physically fit enough to take a hike in the Swiss Alps in two years, that's motivating to me. And it might produce long-term change and it might engage my family too. So the system around me, it might have positive benefits for the system around me and it might create better health outcomes for my family too.
So I started thinking that's the goal, it's to get the right motivations for people directly responsible for the goal. It's to attach the goal to something that's motivational for them. And then it's to ensure that the surrounding people and processes don't suffer any material negative consequences, that goal and in fact maybe even benefit from it.
So then, that was some goal thinking that solved, finding good. And then I started thinking about balanced scorecards because balanced scorecards, really what those are is a way of expressing how you're accomplishing the sum of your goals. I began to think then about this idea of a KPI, key performance indicator that is saying that's a measure at a strategic level.
So it's not a key success outcome, which is maybe something a little bit more tactical, but it's at the strategic level. And I started thinking about KPIs in particular and balanced scorecards. And how then could you take these processes, this or this idea of love for people and get that translated into some better performance metrics or better KPIs.
I was working at the time with a Christian homeless organization. And I started talking with them about this as part of their strategy process, and I just noticed it resonated with their mindset. And we continued working on it with this organization. And it resulted in a scorecard initially for that organization, which then turned out to be relatively easy to translate, concept wise, into a scorecard for a board.
A KPI has both a measure and a target.
Let me just give you a few examples. A KPI has both a measure and a target, and it's based on a balance set of perspectives. And so one example might be a board that wants to measure giving and getting, you've probably seen that as an issue, Tommy, and some of the boards that you work with, their concern is that the giving and getting the donations direct and indirect are not sufficient or not what the development department wants. Some boards the chairman in collaboration with the CEO might say, this is a minimum gift. It's $10,000. If you want to be on our board, you're going to give $10,000. It's a minimum gift. Or another board might take the approach of saying, we want you to be in the top three of charities or causes that you give to now.
One of those ways is more focused on people and aligning motivations and commitments than the other. And that's the difference at a board level and at an organization level that we're trying to capture. How do you make these things more motivational? Another area for a board might be in the continuous improvement boards that have a really high percentage of directors talking about how much they love their board and are likely to be doing a good job.
It could be that when it comes to your board self-assessment, if your measure is going to be based on your board self-assessment, maybe within that board self-assessment, you want to have a measure and pull that up to the KPI level about what is your board of director's net promoter score?
In other words, how many people on your board are going out and talking about that board positively and inviting them to come into the board? Maybe 80% of the board, at least, should be going out and doing that. And if they are, then that's a great metric for a board self-assessment. It's a very results-oriented self-assessment.
You've got a great board if everybody's out there talking about what a wonderful board you have. And it's also doing great things, by the way, for your recruitment metric as well.
[00:10:27] Tommy Thomas: That question I hadn't heard. This is fascinating.
[00:10:33] Caryn Ryan: So, whether it's for boards or leaders, a nonprofit who wants to do this for a ministry has to tweak the methodologies that are used in the for-profit sector.
But I think if they do it, they're going to get this a board or the leaders of organizations, they're going to just get a huge payback. They're just going to find that it's transformational in terms of the quality of time that they spend working on their metrics, making sure their personal motivations don't have unintended consequences and that they demonstrate the love for people.
So, this is not something that I think a lot of people are thinking about, Tommy, and I can see working on this more as my role. So, mission will become less operational, but there's something in here that there's a word here that needs to be spread a little bit and different ways of thinking that we as Christians can offer to the rest of the world.
++++++++++++++++
[00:11:26] Tommy Thomas: A lot of people, most of us, would say that we've learned a lot in life through failure. In fact, maybe a lot of our stuff is learned through mistakes. If that's the truth, why are most of us so afraid to make a mistake?
[00:11:40] Caryn Ryan: I really think that it goes back to those two root causes that I was talking about before for leadership.
Self-esteem and a desire for power or money or greed. And if you have really low self-esteem, then I think you don't want to be judged. And because you don't want to be judged, then you don't take risks. And if you don't take risks, there's no reward. And then because there's no rewards, that goes and reinforces your low self-esteem.
So it's this whole negative cycle of activities that just result in you not taking risks. But I would say too that if it's somebody who's power hungry, what you're going to see there is maybe not mistakes. It's more sins or heirs, of omission and commission really, that are just more, they're selfish, right?
And so they're mistakes. They're either mistakes, in this life or in the next life. If you want to improve people's risk taking, you need to permit mistakes. And we need to also work on the root causes there.
We need to have systems and processes that make it safe, that don't trigger negative self-esteem, that make it okay for people to engage in risk taking, that set up rewards for risk taking. It's a kind of a whole system that we have to address if you want to fix this. But I think from a board perspective, and I know you're coming from that some of the time, there's also an issue of just needing to screen people who are willing to step past any kind of inner hesitations that they might have about, looking silly in front of their peers, for instance and who will just come out and say, it looks this way to me.
And from a board perspective that seldom is going to be a mistake is going to generate a great conversation and improve outcomes for a board.
[00:13:43] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to financial accountability for a minute. Because you live three or 400 miles south of the largest bank failure in recent days, the Silicon Valley Bank.
And then you and I are both old enough to remember the Enron scandal. And in both of those situations, I think most people say the board is culpable. I guess the jury's still out on the bank but my hunch is that they'll find some culpability there. Take it. And they're not nonprofit organizations, but boards have responsibilities.
How do you counsel your clients to have more candid conversations about financial accountability?
[00:14:21] Caryn Ryan: That's such a great question, Tommy. I will say too, just for starters, that it's quite rare, I think for board members to have whatever it takes to come out and ask these top questions. The best of boards do, but the middle of the pack and the worst really don't.
Now you start thinking then about what is in the best of boards that makes them allow conflict and allow tough questions to come out. And I think there's a variety of answers. But first, let me just say this. I want to point out an interesting statistic here because if you look at candidate or GuideStar, this is a rating entity for nonprofits.
And that includes Christian nonprofits. They provide some statistics that could be of interest here to try to think through - who are the best of the best. It's not completely pertinent, but in their world, which is thousands and thousands of charities that they rank, only 5% get a ranking of gold, silver, or platinum status.
And of those, it's a very limited percentage, maybe 15%, that get the platinum. So when you multiply that backwards, then it says that only about 1.5% of all the charities that get ranked get a platinum candid certification. Now, this is mainly just looking at financial results and transparencies, but I think it does show that being the top nonprofit, it's pretty rarefied world.
It's that up in the stratosphere there is a top nonprofit or a top ministry. So then we code your question then about I think having a board that can ask the tough questions is a precursor to that, to being a top performing nonprofit. And so having a really great board.
It is a risky proposition when a nonprofit CEO recruits only his/her friends or allies to the Board.
There are barriers that we can see. I'm sure you've seen these often too, but it's not unusual for a CEO to recruit his or her friends or allies to the board. And that's never a good idea because it discourages a lot of times that friend from having an honest conversation about the nonprofit or something that's really important to their friend.
And also on boards, it's not unusual to have a whole bunch of conflicts of interest. It just isn't dealt with or even surfaced by the board members. So when you have that, then you have the sometimes people aren't going to ask tough questions because they have a conflict of interest.
Another factor is that there's capability gaps. There are people who aren't able to read basic financial statements or financial reports. And I think financials, I'm coming at this from a financial perspective perhaps, but financials embody the impact of boards and their decisions, and their actions related to strategy.
A board takes a decision. The decision unfolds as actions. The actions are translated into financial results. And so that's how a board gets to see how did I do with the strategic decisions that I made? But interestingly, a lot of times sports can't even read their financial statements.
There's a lot of financial literacy questions there. So how can you ask tough questions if you can't read the financial statements or financial reports and understand them? And sometimes there are issues with what's delivered to boards too, in terms of information, but sometimes it's just a basic lack of understanding.
I think too, there's also a fundamental issue that sometimes with boards, they don't get enough board development or board training and they really just don't understand their key role when it comes to accountability. And so, they don't understand that it's their job to ask the tough questions.
These are a few things, but I think you put them all together, Tommy. And isn't it a wonder at all that any charities have boards that do ask the tough questions and that are excellent? There are a lot of pieces that all have to come together to make that happen.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:18:11] Tommy Thomas: At the crux of any board is the Board Chair. Give me words and phrases that would describe the best chair you've ever seen or served under.
[00:18:20] Caryn Ryan: Okay. I would say some of the things that I've seen the chairman do… They're tough, but they're relational, right? They're goal driven, but they're people driven. They stick to a vision of what they have for the organization and for the board. They tend to be performance oriented. I think if you have board chairs who don't understand the value that the board is supposed to bring it's hard for them to be performance oriented.
The best board chairs really understand deeply what the value this board is bringing to this organization.
And therefore, because they understand that they're able to act in that way. So I see those are some of the characteristics that differentiate a great board leader from a less than great board leader.
[00:19:11] Tommy Thomas: Do you think every board needs a glass half empty person?
[00:19:16] Caryn Ryan: Does the board need that kind of a person? No. I guess it depends on how you define that, Tommy. So, for me if you mean by that, that there's a person who can see that they’re on the side of half empty, that there's upsides and downsides, right?
Then maybe. But in general, I think when a board comes together, they need to be so enthusiastic, so passionate about the mission and vision. So, the ability to look at an opportunity and say, no our glass is not half empty. I know where we want to go as a board, and we're going to fill this glass, right?
They're going to say, we're going to absolutely fill this glass. We're going to pivot and do what we have to do because maybe there are some circumstances out there that are making some people think the glass is half empty, but we're going to pivot. We're going to figure out what we need to do.
Always moving down the field toward the goalpost, toward the vision for the organization. So I think if people can try to look at environments and circumstances and say, how do we get the most from these? How do we use this? Change this, maybe this negative circumstance.
How do we use this negative environment? How do we use this risky situation? How do we just use this to help us down the goalpost? Or if we just absolutely can't find a way, how do we dodge it for now so we can come back and get back on track later? Is there a better way for a board member to function?
[00:20:39] Tommy Thomas: Talk a little bit about the CEO Evaluation and the Board. You've seen a lot of boards. What's some best practices you see there?
[00:20:48] Caryn Ryan: How about for starters doing it? That to me is critical and mostly what I've seen over the years are annual assessments. When it's done.
What I see is annual assessments sometimes every two years. When I've helped boards, I sit on boards that I've helped. What I've done is I've stolen shamelessly from other organizations to develop an assessment. And by the way, I don't think you need to be overly concerned with whether a professional developed this assessment.
Most board members know this is what's important for us and for the CEO. Just write those questions out and, go or go steal them from somebody and tweak them a bit to make them fit your circumstances. I've noticed other nonprofits are very generous in sharing that way.
They're happy to say, this is my evaluation tool. But it's important too, to just do it and to remember too, it's not the tool, it's the conversation around it. You're actually using that tool because you want to improve. If it's a Board evaluation, you want to improve the Board. If it's a CEO evaluation, you want to give it to the CEO to develop the CEO.
And sometimes to make a tough decision on retention. But a lot of times it's for the development and the good of the CEO and the organization. So don't focus on the what, focus on the how, when it comes to these evaluations, and keep in mind what the goal is, right? To encourage and to support and to develop your CEO.
[00:22:13] Tommy Thomas: I talked to Jerry White, The Board Chair for The Navigators International, yesterday. And Jerry's comment was that whatever comes out in the evaluation shouldn't be a surprise.
[00:22:22] Caryn Ryan: That's quite true because if it does turn out to be a surprise, Jerry is absolutely correct. You've had a trust breakdown.
The results of the Board’s evaluation of the CEO should not be a surprise to the CEO. If that happens you have a breakdown in trust and communications.
When you have that big of a communications breakdown, there's a trust dynamic at work there. And that has to be treated as a separate issue and a precursor to really doing CEO evaluations. You first have to address that trust issue, what is causing the trust issue? And you have to get that out of the way before you can then have reasonably productive conversations around an assessment. That's such a common dynamic, Tommy.
[00:22:56] Tommy Thomas: Jerry said that, I'm probably paraphrasing, but something to the effect of the evaluation should really be going on overtime and not just every 12 months or whatever.
[00:23:06] Caryn Ryan: He's absolutely right.
So there should be informal feedback occurring. Some of the better boards, I've seen the chairman meeting monthly with the CEO, right? They have lunch, an informal kind of lunch. And they're having a very frank and relational though dialogue during the month about, what's going, what's going wrong.
It's a chance and opportunity for linkages and feedback to the board and back. And so that in and of itself is building trust and leading to the ability for the board to have a positive session when it comes to the performance management. But I'll say this, even when that's occurring at which it does in the best board, there are going to be, because the CEO Evaluation is the sum of all, typically of all the board members.
It's not always the case. Sometimes the chairman will do it, or they'll select a few people to do it, but a lot of times it's the whole board. There's almost a benefit to seeing that total perspective because maybe there's an aspect of it that's a surprise. The overall flow is in accord with what the chairman and CEO have been talking about and having dialogue on through the year.
But there's a couple of points that generally come out that make that wrap up in the annual evaluation valuable. There's something about the faith life of the CEO that hasn't been addressed and it's coming out and there's a way to have a conversation in a different kind of pulling up.
Over the past year and maybe even looking forward a little bit into the challenges, it's just a way of pulling up above the fray and looking with a little bit more distance at the year that can generate a couple of new revelations. But I totally agree with Jerry. There shouldn't really be a lot of surprises on that because there should be this ongoing dialogue.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:24:44] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you one question, then I'll close. My next to the last question has to do with succession planning and the board. At what point should that begin to occur? And how does the board address that without the CEO thinking? I'm a short termer.
[00:25:03] Caryn Ryan: Okay. Yeah, that's great. I'm dealing with that right now at one of my one of the boards that I sit on. And I've just dealt with that last year as well. And it works both ways if it works all, all different ways. So let me just talk about one where the CEO does get the feeling. If you have this conversation, they're a short termer.
I want to just say first of all, that can sometimes go back to the trust issue again, right? When there's a lack of trust between the board and the CEO then, and you bring up the question of succession planning, the first thing that goes of course into the CEO's mind is, oh, I'm getting fired. I'm a short termer here.
So that has to again, be addressed, the trust issue before you can have productive conversations around succession planning. But even longer term issues are going to take some time to get resolved. There's something you can always do on the succession plan that's very short term and that every single board must have in place.
And that is you need a succession plan in case of an emergency. If your CEO becomes ill, is hit by a bus, whatever, right? You need an emergency succession plan that is an interim structure or very well thought through way that you'll manage in the absence of the CEO.
And usually, it's not going to bring out the same negative feeling for the CEO. On the part of the CEO because they understand that, oh yeah, if I'm not there, we need to have some interim structure. And so, they'll begin helping the Board and thinking through, look, okay, if something happens to me, let's make this person on our staff, the interim, or let's pull this Board Member out and see if they'll be the interim.
Or they'll start to engage in the ideas for how that could work in an interim structure. And as long as you can get that interim structure put in place and everybody's in agreement that it's workable, that then gives a chance during the interim structure for the Board to go out and begin doing a search to find a replacement candidate.
Regarding succession planning for a Founder – She/he just might not be willing to step aside.
They might have created a whole lack of number twos in the organization who can step in, even in an emergency. It just may not be anybody. So that's a different situation where the board needs to probably, in addition to working on trust, which can be very difficult with the founder.
You might be off the board if you start having those kinds of conversations. But what you can do as a board is do your research. How you would do a search. You can get your research done on executive search firms who could step in and help you. You can just keep in mind, it takes and Tommy, you're the one who should be telling your podcast listeners this, but it's a long process to do a search.
You've got to set up a search committee. You have to figure out how you're going to recruit, the person. You've got to have an approach. You have to execute it, you have to review the candidates. It's just really time consuming. You at least have to think through all of these, how that's a minimum thing, even if it's a founder situation.
So I'd say two things. Number one, for sure, have an interim emergency succession plan, no questions asked. That's an absolute minimum mandate for every board. And number two, if you're on a founder board, you have to do some special extra work along the side with networking, quiet networking, just to figure out the process and figure out how you would do, how would you do that if something did happen to your founder, if your founder's not willing to participate or help with that. Does that make sense?
[00:28:32] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. The founder conversation is probably a three or four podcast discussion that I haven't had yet. Maybe I'll have you back with two or three other panelists and we'll talk about founders because I did some research three or four years ago on that, and it's an easier said than done proposition.
[00:28:49] Caryn Ryan: Yes, I totally agree, and I'd love to hear the wisdom of some other panelists on this one too, because we all encounter these founder situations.
[00:28:58] Tommy Thomas: So, let's go to my last question. Somebody comes to you next week, they want to have breakfast or lunch, and somebody has asked them to serve on the Board of a nonprofit, and they're coming to you saying, Caryn, what should I be thinking about?
[00:29:13] Caryn Ryan: I'd say, if they ask that question, they're on track to be a good board member first of all. Because sometimes people will jump into these situations without asking that very question. But what I would give somebody who's thinking about joining a board the advice is number one,
For a nonprofit Board Member - Does the mission of the organization excite my passion?
Am I passionate about it? I think if you're not passionate about what the organization is doing, it's just not going to work. It's just not going to interest you inherently. So, you have to be able to see this as a way to realize or support your passion. Number two I would talk about - I would think about conflicts of interest.
I was recently counseling the Executive Director of an organization who'd been asked to serve on a board where there were some competitive aspects to her organization. So we talked that through. And she in effect decided, no, there's too many conflicts of interest here for me to take that board position.
Number three might be do you have the time? Okay. So, there's a real issue. You need to dig in and understand how much time is it going to take. Do you have to serve on committees? How much time do the committees take? How many, how frequently are the board meetings? Is there a retreat every year that you have to go to?
So you really need to add up the time and make sure that you're able to make that commitment. I'd say those are three of the big things that I see with people. And a lot of times I'll start doing positive coaching to people too, in terms of, also, why don't you ask yourself, what development will I personally get by sitting on the Board?
What will it do for me and my professional development or my development as a person and a human being? And sometimes that can make the difference. They can say, I really don't have the time to do this, but I need to do this because I really believe it's going to focus and sharpen at home this strategic skill set that I need to be successful in something else that I'm doing in life.
And so, they'll do it and they'll be really glad, because they'll get that development. Just let's think about that lens too.
[00:31:05] Tommy Thomas: That's interesting. A good friend, Joe Arms, who used to be the Chairman of the Baylor Board is the CEO of a large private sector company. He said he makes that a part of the management training program for his employees that he encourages board participation in the nonprofit sector in Dallas as part of their grooming.
[00:31:27] Caryn Ryan: I can see that you get a lot of personal development when you're a part of a board and it's where you're really learning that what you learn about governance is not so distinct from what you need to be a top senior executive in a corporation. There are just a lot of parallels there. So I can really see why he'd say that. So he makes a very good observation.
[00:31:48] Tommy Thomas: Caryn, thank you. This has been a great conversation. I just believe our listeners have picked up some things that probably hadn't been covered in other board conversations, so thank you for taking this time with me. I really appreciate it.
[00:32:03] Caryn Ryan: Absolutely. Thank you, Tommy. I'm so glad to have reconnected with you and been able to remember some of my fond memories with some of the people who are in your network as we've talked.
[00:32:14] Tommy Thomas: Life has been good to me over the years, and the two men you mentioned, Nick Isbister and Rob Stevenson - both of those guys they put a lot of time into this project, and I'm grateful for their part in my life.
[00:32:26] Caryn Ryan: I'm grateful too and I can add you to my circle of gratitude now.
[00:32:30] Tommy Thomas: Our guest next week will be Alec Hill The President Emeritus of InterVarsity Christian fellowship. You may remember Alec from Episodes 18 and 19, where he and Rudy Hernandez, a former board chair at InterVarsity discuss the working relationship between the CEO and the Board Chair in a nonprofit organization.
Alec is also a prolific writer. He's a regular contributor to postings on the Christian Leadership Alliance website. One of his recent posts was titled Finding Gold in Manure. In that article Alec shares lessons that he's learned for some of the hard times in his life. And in our conversation we'll dig into some of those lessons.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
2021 Distinguished Alumni Recipient Caryn Ryan, ‘79
Missionwell Website
Transforming Performance Measurement: Rethinking the Way We Measure and Drive Organizational Success by Dean Spitzer
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Caryn Ryan’s LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: This week, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Paul Mauer, the president of Montreat College. If you missed that episode, we've talked about what one writer has referred to as the “Miracle at Montreat”. Today Paul is sharing lessons that he's learned about nonprofit board governance over the years.
Let's change over a little bit to the board aspect of being a president. What was the biggest adjustment that you had to make between, say, reporting to the CEO as a cabinet member and then as the President reporting to the board?
[00:00:40] Paul Maurer: Yeah, it's a great question. I'm a bit of a governance nerd. I really think about and study governance. I did that in my doctoral work. I do it as a college president in nonprofit governance.
Your board policy manual really matters. It matters because your board needs clarity.
The president needs clarity. What is the role of the board? What is the role of the president? What's the role of the relationship and what's the role of everyone else on campus in relationship to the board? And so, in the world of board governance, there are working boards and there are policy boards.
Startups tend to have working boards, like true startups, like really small organizations, more established organizations. If they haven't transitioned to a policy board, they probably ought to consider doing so. Because you don't really want a board involved in the operations of an organization.
I'm deeply grateful that my board gave me the lead role in board development, meaning recruitment of new board members, training of board members, and the board policy manual. And we have a great board today, and they really understand that the board should not be involved in operations.
That's the CEO's job but one should be sure that they're being fiduciaries, that they're making sure there's a strategic plan that's being carried out, their success along the way, and that they manage or evaluate. They don't manage, they evaluate the presidents. They hire and fire the president, the CEO.
I do think that my argument would be that it's more important for a President to be a CEO than a President. The President is, as I think of a bit of an old model for college leadership, it's rooted in what I think is not a very useful model of shared governance. I think the CEO is a better model, but you also need a CEO who's sensitive to campus dynamics and the idea that consensus really matters.
And a consensus building CEO I think is the best model, but I think that the CEO also needs to be the CUO - the Chief Urgency Officer, because things are changing so fast.
And if the CEO is not leading change with a great sense of urgency, then I think the institution puts itself at some measure of risk.
[00:03:21] Tommy Thomas: You've served on other boards, and you've reported to at least two, give me some attributes of a great Board Chair.
[00:03:29] Paul Maurer: I think the central role of a Board Chair is to manage the board. It's not principally to be a person of wealth or to be connected to persons of wealth. I don't think that's the right model for a Board Chair of a college.
I think the right model is someone who understands nonprofit governance and manages the board meeting to meeting because the board ultimately is the boss of the President - CEO, only during those board meetings. So the board chair needs to constantly instill clarity in the board to encourage them and steer them away from being involved in operations from directing the presidents, and to maintaining the role of being an overseer that the CEO reports to three times a year or however many times a year that board meets.
The best chairs I've worked with really understand governance and really do well in managing the board's expectations of what that governance entails.
[00:04:41] Tommy Thomas: How does a good Board Chair draw out the silent board member?
[00:04:47] Paul Maurer: In our board meetings, we have blocks of time for plenary sessions for the big picture items. And there's always time in there for dialogue and for feedback. And there are times when we build into our board meetings. When I give my board report, I give a little bit of a board update, a little bit of a report, and then I just open the floor to questions.
And so there's just this open dialogue that I have with my board during the president's report at the beginning of the day and then the middle of the day during plenary sessions. If I'm informing or bringing an action item to the board as a whole, we are sure to build in time for dialogue, deliberation, questions, understanding, and in between board meetings, I'm sending information on kind of the latest update on what's happening in my world.
So, they're getting articles on a regular, semi-regular basis that if they're able to take time to read them helps keep them abreast of the most pressing issues that I'm facing on a regular basis.
[00:06:04] Tommy Thomas: So how often do you and your Board Chair, do y'all have regularly scheduled times or is it as needed? How do y'all relate to each other?
[00:06:12] Paul Maurer: I'm aware that friendship is a tricky element in these things. I happen to have a very deep and strong friendship with my board chair, which preceded him coming on the board and he became a board member. And now as chair and I've changed my mind on this, Tommy, because there was a time earlier on when I thought that those were mutually exclusive and now, I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
I think it can work very healthfully. And now I actually try to cultivate friendships with my board members in a way that I didn't early on in my first presidency, certainly not early on at Montreat. And so I think that dynamic when healthy is a really powerful part of making it work well.
Any model can be abused. Any model can go awry. And I've seen that and I've heard about it an awful lot. I've experienced it. But I've also experienced the flip side of that, where a really meaningful friendship can also be the basis of a really healthy CEO-Board Chair relationship.
[00:07:34] Tommy Thomas: Can you think back as to, you mentioned early on at Montreat you hadn't gotten there yet. What changed?
[00:07:43] Paul Maurer: In the relationship with my board chair?
[00:07:46] Tommy Thomas: Yeah, how did you make that transition from thinking it wasn't healthy to realizing that it could be healthy?
[00:07:52] Paul Maurer: I guess experiencing it along the way, initially without intending it to be that, and I went, this actually works.
And so, when my current chair, when I began discussions with him about, because he had led a major healthcare nonprofit and grown it from a $25 million budget to $125 million budget. He had led a nonprofit. He had worked in that sector for all of his career in healthcare, not in education.
And so, I knew that I wanted him to be my next board chair when that time came. And so it was really then that I began to think in this kind of new model that maybe there's a way for and as I look back, I've actually had these like really healthy relationships with my past two board chairs here at Montreat.
And gosh, what a better way to do it, and it really is possible. It eventually dawned on me that I could intentionally pursue that.
[00:09:01] Tommy Thomas: Do you have a term limit for your board chair?
[00:09:04] Paul Maurer: Five years, but it's year to year, up to five years.
[00:09:09] Tommy Thomas: And what about your board members?
[00:09:10] Paul Maurer: Nine years, the terms are three years renewable, two times for a nine year max with a one year minimum required off before renomination. One of the changes we made here was that every three-year term we do the board does self-evaluations for those that term and peer evaluations for those that come to term.
There's an honest, self-reflective, peer reviewed process that goes through a committee on trusteeship every year for those at a term to ask the question, is this going well? Is this a time to continue on or a time to step off?
And so it's not a nine, it's not a nine year. Every three years we talk about it.
[00:10:08] Tommy Thomas: Is that fairly common in the nonprofit sector from your experience?
[00:10:12] Paul Maurer: The board policy manual that we use was the work of Bob Andringa who was the CEO of the Council for Christian Colleges Universities some years ago. And Bob developed the BPM (Board Policy Manual) that we use.
And as I understand it, there are 60 or 70 or 80, I think mostly CCCU schools that have adopted some version of Bob's work. And I just think it's so well-crafted and we of course made it ours with Bob's permission. And it's just a really, it's a really well done, thoughtful way to do governance.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:10:53] Tommy Thomas: A lot of people that I talk with, there's a move toward lowering the mean age of the board and also increasing diversity. What kind of experience have y'all had at Montreat on those issues?
[00:11:03] Paul Maurer: We're intentionally trying to increase diversity. We've not found that to be an easy pathway, but we are committed to it.
And on age I would just gently push back on the median age lowering. I'm very much of the Aristotelian camp that young people have less wisdom. And part of what you want for board members is wisdom. Wisdom comes with experience, and experience comes with age and the hard knocks of life.
And just the journey of life with gray hair and getting beat up occasionally. And I want younger people on the board, but that's more, that's less common. They're actually very hard to get on the board because they're less really qualified candidates in my view, and they're uber busy with career and family.
So the young members I have, the 30 somethings I have on my board, I have two of them. They're like up to their eyeballs, four or five kids each, they're CEOs or leaders in their own rights and rising in the ranks. And these people have large portfolios and enormous demands on their time.
Then my 70- and 80-year-olds, and even I have a 91-year-old board member who I recruited at the age of 87. And he said to me, he said, Paul, what if I die? And I said, Bill what if I die? We're all going to die. You've got a lot of gas left in your tank. You've got an enormous amount of wisdom.
And you may have others who think that you're too old to be a board member. I don't think that at all. And if there comes a day when your health has slipped, your metro capacities have slipped, we'll have that conversation and we'll have it openly and honestly. Honestly, the seventies, eighties, and 90-year-old trustees I have are really easily among my best trustees. They're phenomenal.
[00:13:22] Tommy Thomas: Let me get you to respond to this quote. You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant, someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.
[00:13:39] Paul Maurer: I think I would probably not gravitate toward the word irritant, and I would say I, I'd probably substitute something a little softer than that, that you want to be objective and you want to be able to deal with the hard issues. And frankly, the CEO ought to be leading the way on that, not a board member.
I think it's fine for a board member to raise difficult or uncomfortable matters, and I certainly have board members who do that, and I think that's fine and it's healthy, but I think that can come by from different means, and it can come without it being quote unquote, maybe I'm just hung up on the word irritant.
I think you can have really robust, difficult, honest, truthful conversations without it being irritating.
[00:14:40] Tommy Thomas: Okay. Talk about your philosophy or your use of the executive committee?
[00:14:48] Paul Maurer: I think it's vital and extremely valuable in a healthy board situation, and I'm qualifying a lot of my comments with a healthy board because I've worked for both healthy and unhealthy boards.
I happen to be working for a very healthy board in my time here at Montreat. And so the executive committee functionally is a decision that needs to be made quickly between board meetings and the CEO either doesn't have the authority or just wisely wants the board to help own that decision and goes to the executive committee in between board meetings for a fast decision.
Early in my time here, I used that executive committee with more frequency than I do now. But I don't have the number of fires now that I had back in 14, 15, 16, 17. And so I still use the executive committee, but it's less frequent and the larger board has fully embraced the executive committee in that way.
[00:16:01] Tommy Thomas: How often do you use the executive session?
[00:16:04] Paul Maurer:
Every board meeting, we have two executive sessions, one with the president and one without the president.
Actually in inverse order - the first without the president. And then I'm brought back in for executive session with the president and where I'm told what was discussed in session without the president fully briefed and then engaging in a conversation where it's just me and the board in whatever they want to talk about freely, they don't feel free to talk about necessarily with a cabinet in the room.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:16:37] Tommy Thomas: We mentioned strategic planning a few minutes ago. Does your board, are they involved in that, or do you and your staff bring that to the board?
[00:16:44] Paul Maurer: The latter in our board policy manual, the board's role is to approve a strategic plan recommended by the president and to receive updates and make sure that the CEO is making progress on the strategic plan. And so I give reports on the strategic plan, but the board is not involved in the creation of the strategic plan.
[00:17:07] Tommy Thomas: How does the CEO evaluation take place at Montreat?
[00:17:11] Paul Maurer: So I submit a set of goals to the board on an annual basis that are metrics tied to the strategic plan, and they're evaluated at the end of the year. And we, in our executive session, have a conversation about my delivery toward those goals.
[00:17:32] Tommy Thomas: Is that on an annual basis?
[00:17:35] Paul Maurer: It is in our policy manual. It is an annual activity.
[00:17:39] Tommy Thomas: How have you and your board addressed board turnover? In terms of maybe involuntary or voluntary? I guess people decide they don't have time. They don't enjoy it. How are y'all doing with that?
[00:17:53] Paul Maurer: We've grown our board over the years, but we've certainly had people who, I had two resignations in this last run up to my board meeting last week. And they were just personal situations that they felt like they just needed to focus on some personal matters that they didn't feel like they could do justice to their service on the board.
And we regretfully accepted their resignations. But in those cases, it had nothing to do with the college or the board or it was purely personal. That's mostly what we've experienced over these years. Most of our trustees go to term and we have them term out after nine years. We celebrate them and thank them.
We've grown our board from our bylaws. Say that we can have between 12 and 36. It's a very wide range. When I first got here, we were in that 12 to 15 range for a number of years. Maybe ironically, maybe not. Ironically, during covid we had just a tremendous breakthrough in people saying yes to joining the board.
I do a lot of board cultivation with board members who are bringing prospective trustee names to the table. We have a very robust list of prospective trustees at all times. Somewhere between 10 and 15 on our prospect list. And some go fast, some go slow, some never materialize. We're about 20 board members today. Our target is to get in somewhere between 25 and 28.
[00:19:31] Tommy Thomas: What kind of strategy do you use to keep that list at 15 to 20?
[00:19:36] Paul Maurer: Probably closer to 10 to 15. Yeah. And that's really the work of the committee on trusteeship to surface names. We also have, as we recruit new board members in, they bring fresh names to that list.
So we're constantly messaging like that. That's a document. That's a living, breathing document. And some people stay on the A-list, some move to the B, some move to, we ask and they said no. We've got six or eight tabs on that spreadsheet, and it’s constantly a living, breathing kind of document.
[00:20:15] Tommy Thomas: This might be a mundane question, but I hear it asked a lot. Do you have a board meeting evaluation fairly regularly, or how do y'all approach that?
[00:20:25] Paul Maurer: Every board meeting, as soon as the board meeting is over, they get a email in their inbox asking them to fill out an evaluation of the board meeting.
They've just finished. We give just a small number of days to do that so it's fresh in their minds. And then the Committee on Trusteeship takes that feedback which is both on a Likert scale as well as open comments available to, for them to make. And then that is discussed at the next committee on trusteeship meeting.
And we're always trying to get better and refine and bring some changes to how the board meetings are conducted. And those surveys have served a very valuable role in that way.
[00:21:09] Tommy Thomas: What did you learn through Covid that you'll take forward? That maybe you didn't do before Covid in terms of board relationships and board governance?
[00:21:19] Paul Maurer: One of the observations I made during Covid was man, we're in this together. And my board chair is a public health expert, as I mentioned before and when Covid hit I remember calling him in early April and I said I don't have a clue how we're going to reopen.
Can you help us? And he said I'd love to help you. And I said I've developed a friendship with the other four-year residential college presidents here in Western North Carolina. There are four privates and then a couple of major publics. Would you be willing to help them too? And he said, absolutely I would.
That group of six presidents plus my board chair met on a zoom call at noon every Wednesday for a year and a half to figure out how to open residential both years of covid. And that was a powerful experience of teamwork and collaboration and friendship and setting aside the inevitable competition that exists between these institutions and saying, there's a bigger picture here, and I think the benefit of that was very great for all of us.
The second thing I'd point to is that the level of fear that I observed during covid was something I'd never seen before, how widespread, how deep it was. And so the word courage became a central concept that whatever we did, we needed to really lean into the courage of critical thinking and what's best for the institution, what's best for the students and the staff here.
And there was no one size fits all in Covid in vastly different circumstances in different parts of the country. Vastly different realities of the impact of covid with different age groups and so we had to make decisions for 18- to 22-year-olds in our campus and our employees. That's how we had to make decisions.
And you can't possibly have state mandates or county mandates or federal recommendations fit every circumstance. And we made decisions that we believed to be in the best interest of our community. And we took some criticism for that. But overall, I would say that those who chose that kind of a pathway were probably more rewarded than not.
+++++++++++++++++++=
[00:24:20] Tommy Thomas: I'll ask you two final questions and we'll try to land this thing. Go to the board and the CEO’s succession plan. What have y'all done there to ensure some sort of untimely succession?
[00:24:35] Paul Maurer: So we're actually just starting that conversation like literally last Friday at the board meeting with kind of keyman questions.
And we haven't done a lot there on the longer question of succession. I've started thinking about that. I'd like to stay longer. I don't really have an interest in retirement. Not at this point anyway. And today I'd love to go another decade or so.
We'll see what happens. But I'm increasingly of the mind that the best succession plan is to bring one or more people onto your team who may have the potential and groom them.
Talk openly about succession and see what happens with the possibility that the CEO can actually play a central role in the recommendation of his or her successor.
The way the church does this, and the way colleges and universities do this, in my experience the pastor and the president really play very little role at all. Either limited or none. And the more I've been thinking about this and talking to peers about this, the less that makes sense to me.
And again, in a healthy situation, the board I think could and should rightly lean on and engage at a very deep level, the CEO of the college to say, what do you think? Who do you think we should hire? What are the core competencies? Can we get that person on board? And so, what I'd like to do in the years ahead is get two or three, maybe even four people on my cabinet who have the potential capacity for becoming a college president and see if we can't raise one of them up into the role as my successor.
Whether that works or not, I can't predict that, but that to me seems like a wise model if you can do it healthfully.
[00:26:43] Tommy Thomas: What are you going to say if you get a call next week from either a friend or maybe someone you don't know that says Paul, I've been asked to serve on a nonprofit board. What kind of council are you giving somebody who's considering a nonprofit board service?
[00:27:00] Paul Maurer: It ought to be done with a significant measure of time, talent, and treasure.
It ought to be a major commitment of yours if you're serving on lots of nonprofit boards. Unless you're willing to put this new one at a higher level of commitment than the others, maybe you shouldn't do it. I think that the best board members of nonprofits are vested.
They've got skin in the game. They're giving of their time, their talent, and significantly of their treasure. The treasure's the hardest one, I think. We ask all of our trustees to commit to Montreat being a top three philanthropic priority prior to trusteeship. And that's a stumbling block for some people.
But I think in the end, it also fosters the creation of a board that has skin in the game and that really is serious about the future of the institution. It's not a casual kind of volunteering. It's a serious kind of volunteering.
[00:28:13] Tommy Thomas: It has been great. Paul, this has been so much fun. Thank you for carving out an hour and a half of your time for me. I appreciate it.
[00:28:20] Paul Maurer: Tommy, I've enjoyed it very much. You ask a lot of very good questions and I'm certain that your podcasts are of great value to those in leadership and those thinking about leadership. So, thank you.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:28:32] Tommy Thomas (2): Next week, we're going to conclude the conversation that we started with Caryn Ryan and Episode 84. In that conversation, Caryn shared her leadership journey from BP/AMOCO to CFO for World Vision International to her current role as Founder and Managing Member of Missionwell. In next week's episode, Caryn will be sharing lessons on nonprofit board governance that she's learned over the years.
[00:29:04] Caryn Ryan: There's a lot of financial literacy questions there. So how can you ask tough questions if you can't read the financial statements or financial reports and understand them? And sometimes there's issues with what's delivered to boards too, in terms of information, but sometimes it's just a basic lack of understanding.
I think too, there's also a fundamental issue that sometimes with boards, they don't get enough board development or board training and they really just don't understand their key role when it comes to accountability. And so, they don't understand that it's their job to ask the tough questions.
++++++++++++++++
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Montreat College Website
The Miracle at Montreat
Montreat College Facebook
Montreat College Instagram
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Paul Maurer's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Paul Maurer: I've had mentors for probably close to 45 years now, and early on it was people who reached out to me.
And then as I got older and hopefully a little bit wiser, I began to reach out to others to ask them to mentor me. People who I thought were wiser, more experienced, had something to contribute, could sharpen an area where I wasn't particularly sharp. And so the collection of mentors over the course of my lifetime is not small and in the aggregate has played a very powerful role in my life.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:37] Tommy Thomas: Today, we'll begin a two-part series with Paul Mauer, the president of Montreat College. When Paul was selected to be the president of Montreat, the college wasn't very far from closing its doors. What's happened at Montreat over the past nine years is nothing short of miraculous. Today Paul will share a bit of his leadership journey and the early days of his presidency at Montreat.
Before we dive too deep into your professional career, let's go back to your childhood a little bit. What two or three experiences do you think happened back then that shaped you into the man you are today?
[00:01:16] Paul Maurer: I think being raised in a stable home with a mother and father who stayed together and taught me the value of work and they modeled consistency.
They modeled resiliency, they modeled work ethic. In addition to the DNA that I got from my parents, I was deeply shaped by watching a low drama, stable home environment.
[00:01:45] Tommy Thomas: So, what was high school like?
[00:01:48] Paul Maurer: Honestly, pretty unremarkable except for the fact that I came to faith during high school as a sophomore through the Ministry of Young Life, and that changed everything.
I began to understand friendship. I began to understand love. I began to understand family in a whole new way. I began to understand the power, the body of Christ. I began to understand fellowship. I began to understand purpose and meaning in life. I'd grown up in a stable moral home, but not a home of faith.
And so as I got plugged into the church and youth group as a 15 year old sophomore in high school, I felt like I began to see things that I simply could not see before that.
[00:02:38] Tommy Thomas: When you got to college how did you decide on your major?
[00:02:42] Paul Maurer: Anything without math. So, I chose psychology and communications as my two majors, and early in college, I began to sense a call to ministry and I was at the University of Cincinnati, so I wasn't at a faith-based college. I chose majors that would help me understand people better and to communicate better. And those were things that were interesting to me.
[00:03:13] Tommy Thomas: What's something that most people are always surprised to learn about you?
[00:03:19] Paul Maurer: I am a first gen. My parents were immigrants. I don't know whether they're surprised by that, but it's an important part of my past and informs a lot of how I think about the college presidency today and how I think about our students.
I had the benefit of immigrant parents and the challenge of immigrant parents, and both were real, and both were formative and powerful in my life.
[00:03:45] Tommy Thomas: So go back to maybe to your first management job when you actually had some people reporting to you. What do you remember?
[00:03:53] Paul Maurer: I don't know if it was my first management job, but I learned early in management that there's a reason people don't want to manage people. It takes a lot of time. It's hard to build culture. There's a lot of self-interest. There's a natural silo mentality to individuals who work for you, and in the worst-case scenario, there are lawsuits to deal with.
And so as I've observed human behavior and leadership I've observed a lot of people who simply don't want to manage people. And so I think if you're in a role of leadership, you've got to decide pretty early on or certainly somewhere early along the way, whether or not you're willing to manage people and take the challenges that come with the benefits of management and leadership.
[00:04:47] Tommy Thomas: It seems like in our culture that that's a natural career track that maybe people expect you to go to work and become a manager. And there doesn't seem to be a key contributor role necessarily at the forefront. Do you have any observations on that?
[00:05:03] Paul Maurer: I think as a young person the expectations I think ought to be toward how do I contribute, how do I learn, how do I get mentored? How do I show that I'm worthy of more responsibility? And, as a young person, I demonstrated trust in those areas. They may be given leadership but not everyone, of course, is a natural leader and some people don't want to lead, and others learn the leadership skills along the way. And so I think it's a very organic process, particularly for someone in their twenties and thirties.
[00:05:50] Tommy Thomas: Successful people are asked all the time, what makes you successful? And I'm sure you've been asked that question. I'd like to frame it a little bit differently. What's a factor that's helped you succeed that most people on the outside probably wouldn't realize or recognize?
[00:06:06] Paul Maurer: For me I think the most important part of that was mentors who believed in me. Again, I was a first gen. I didn't have a lot of confidence in my academic ability. I didn't have a lot of confidence in who I am. And I was a young Christian by the time I'd gotten to college.
The power of affirmation was very great in my life. A couple of mentors who said who I regarded and respected, people who spoke into my life, and then they spoke affirmation into my life. And I'll never forget how incredibly powerful that was in helping me gain confidence in who God might be making me into, and the roles that God might be leading me into.
And I'm mindful of that in my role in leadership, that the power of affirmation spoken in the right context, in the right hearing can be extraordinarily powerful, disproportionately powerful, to how a young person develops and believes in themself and believes what God has in store for them.
[00:07:19] Tommy Thomas: Did these mentors just show up or do you think they were intentional in terms of seeing you and taking you on as a mentee?
[00:07:29] Paul Maurer: It was a combination. I've had mentors all my life, so I've had mentors for probably close to 45 years now, and early on it was people who reached out to me.
And then as I got older and hopefully a little bit wiser, I began to reach out to others to ask them to mentor me. People who I thought were wiser, more experienced, had something to contribute, could sharpen an area where I wasn't particularly sharp. And so the collection of mentors over the course of my lifetime is not small and in the aggregate has played a very powerful role in my life.
[00:08:11] Tommy Thomas: Do you think college students today are open to mentors? Do they seek that out or are they on a different wavelength?
[00:08:18] Paul Maurer: I wouldn't generalize that. I think some are and some aren't, and I think that was probably the way it was when I was a college student. Some aren't.
If you're hungry, if you want to grow, if you want to learn, if you have a vision for the future, if you have some requisite version of humility that you don't have all the answers, don't know everything, then I think people are very open to mentoring. I've got a student who works in my office 10 hours per week every semester here, so-called the Wilson Scholars Program here at the college.
And my Wilson Scholar this year was a sophomore student from Ukraine. And she was hungry. She's really eager to learn and she has tremendous promise. But not everyone is like that, not everyone has those qualities. So I would be very hesitant to generalize about a generation and say it just depends.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:09:12] Tommy Thomas: Okay. I've never asked this next question to anybody because I don't think I've interviewed anybody that studied the American presidency in graduate school and I just think that's fascinating. And I'm just wondering if you might just reflect back on that for a few minutes and talk about are there any generalizations you learned about the American presidency and leadership and influence?
[00:09:35] Paul Maurer: Yeah, I love talking about that topic and I was drawn to the American presidency because I'm very interested in leadership and I'm very interested in faith and scripture, and I'm very interested in American politics, and the intersection of all those things led me to the American presidency and to do research on the role of moral and religious rhetoric during the course of the American presidency. And so I created a lexicon of distinctly religious rhetoric for the American presidency that stretched from Washington through Clinton. I was in grad school at the time, shortly after Clinton, so that's where the research took me.
And I discovered that there was a tremendous amount of increased use of distinctly religious rhetoric, beginning with Jimmy Carter in the White House and the modern era, starting with Carter and extending to Reagan. And then Clinton as well, had very high levels of religious and moral rhetoric as part of how these presidents spoke.
And that before that they weren't exceptionally low in particular, but they spiked during the, particularly the Carter and Reagan years. And so the focus of my research was a comparative analysis between Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, a Democrat or Republican back-to-back presidents and how they used religious and moral rhetoric in their presidency in particular, did they tie it to any public policy initiatives that were important to them as US President?
[00:11:14] Tommy Thomas: Was it Reagan? No, I guess it was the Bush White House that did the faith-based initiative. Did any of your research have a tie to that initiative?
[00:11:25] Paul Maurer: So for Jimmy Carter, he tied his faith rootedness, his understanding of scripture - his belief in a transcendent God. He tied that to human rights. What was interesting to me as I studied his rhetoric and record and policy on human rights is that the definition of human rights really expanded pretty dramatically in Carter's thinking and rhetoric. And I think it extended beyond his biblical understanding of faith.
He might argue differently. But I thought it went beyond that. And for Reagan this question of liberty was directly tied to his belief in God and the Bible, and tied directly to his disdain, even hatred of communism. He thought that communism was a suppression of God-given liberty, and we needed to exercise our right to that God-given liberty and anyone who sought to oppress it he had very low esteem for, and of course, before he became a politician, he was an actor in Hollywood.
It was a time in Hollywood where there was infiltration in Hollywood of certain communist elements. Tax rates were for him as an actor and the 90% range. And so there was a disincentive for him to work beyond a certain level of income. And so he grew both personally, professionally, but also politically to a point where he really sought to unhinge communism if he could possibly do and of course, as the forces of history were what they were, we saw the Berlin Wall come down. It wasn't simply Ronald Reagan. There were obviously economic factors in the Soviet Union. It was the economic pressures at the time. There were things being done behind the scenes from the papacy in Rome, but ultimately his focus on liberty resulted in part in the Berlin Wall coming down.
So that was Reagan's primary connection to his faith as a public policy endeavor.
[00:13:50] Tommy Thomas: Man, I bet that was some fascinating research in writing.
[00:13:53] Paul Maurer: It kept me interested, which is what you want in a dissertation. You don't want to wake up going, gosh, I hate my dissertation today.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:13:59] Tommy Thomas: Absolutely. Let’s go to Montreat for a little bit. Depending on who one talks with, many would say it was nothing short of a miracle - what's happened in Montreat over the past few years. Can you take us into that?
[00:14:13] Paul Maurer: Montreat today is 107 years old. Our campus is physically a small campus set against a mountain cove in Montreat, North Carolina, just outside of Asheville and the western mountains of the state.
The campus was built for 500 students, but economics, the course of higher education in the last 20 or 30 years make that very difficult to survive. And so over many decades, really, as I'm told, Montreat had a number of near-death experiences where, of course, Montreat is where Billy and Ruth Graham lived for most of their lives after they got married.
They actually got married in what today is our college chapel. We have a church that meets there, and they attended there when they were in town. But the college was too small and enrollment had declined. And in 2013, the college went into merger conversations with the school in Georgia.
A year later, that merger conversation collapsed, and the college really had two options. As we see it, one is to close and the other is for God to show up in a big way. And there's a longer version of the story. But the quick version is that there was a donor who had visited the area a year and a half earlier and attended the church of one of our adjunct faculty members.
And they began, after they went back to their home state after a seven-month sabbatical here, they began sending gifts to the church. The pastor didn't know these people well and wondered what was going on, but they were sending 50 and a hundred thousand dollar checks out of the blue without request.
And a year and a half later, that faculty member, Jerry, is his name, reached out to the couple and said, we don't have a lot of needs at the church, but the college is in dire straits. Might you consider something big for the last fully Christ-centered four-year college in the state of North Carolina, in over six weeks of email only.
Never a call, never visit. They never talked to a trustee. They made a 6 million pledge to the college. And so the trustees interpreted that as a miracle, I think rightly they started a search and I started a few months later and we got busy fast. There's a Gospel Coalition article that was written in 2019 by Sarah Altra entitled The Montreat Miracle.
And if anyone wants to read that, just Google Montreat Miracle Gospel Coalition and the article will pop up. It's a remarkable story and we do think that God has a future and a purpose for this college, and he made it clearer when he prompted that couple to make that 6 million pledge.
[00:17:03] Tommy Thomas: So what did your first hundred days look like?
[00:17:07] Paul Maurer: It’s all a blur, Tommy. We knew the clock was ticking even with a 6 million pledge, because at $300,000 per month hitting our back account, you're getting to $6 million in about two and a half years. We knew that wasn't enough, but we knew it was something very significant and we considered it what we called gas money.
So we're fixing the plane while it's flying. And that was gas money to keep the plane in the air while we fixed it. And when a college has been in merger discussions for a year, there are a lot of things that aren't going well and that get reconfigured, org charts get squirrely, people leave.
When I walked in the door in July 2014, I had five open cabinet positions and my VP of student life had started on July 1st. He was a green newbie to the role. And so, I had to find a cabinet. I had some interims in place, but I didn't have permanent people in place. I'd hire a cabinet to a college that had just gone through a near death experience.
And we knew we had to grow enrollment. We knew we had to have a stable enrollment in fall of 2014. And by God's grace there were, a hundred fifty, a hundred forty-six new students, which is right at the five year average. But you can tell from 150 new students if you know anything about college enrollment, that is just way too small for sustainability.
So we knew that we had to make a promise to the marketplace, but the most important thing that we did was to clarify our Christ-centered identity. We knew that if we were going to be a Christian college, we had to actually make that known and make sure that the core documents of the college, the mission statement, the statement of faith, the vision statement, the community life covenant, reflected a biblical worldview.
The board agreed with that, and we got busy with that and we made some adjustments to the statement of faith. We put infallibility back into the statement of faith in a community life covenant that we added. We affirm that marriage is between one man and one woman as a biblical standard society.
But God's design for marriage is exclusively one man and one woman. And that life begins at conception. And these are biblical principles that we believe are taught clearly in scripture. And we made those documents a condition of employment for the first time in the college's history and we took a lot of heat for that.
It got really hot and we took a lot of criticism, and then 30 days later, the criticism kind of dried up, honestly. And the people who were supporting the fact that we took a courageous stand began to come out of the woodwork. They were there on the first 30 days as well, but they were left alone standing after 30 or 45 days.
And so we've hired a mission. We have unity on campus, and the families of our region who care about that kind of education, who care about the moral compass for their sons and daughters, caught their attention. So all that bad publicity was actually great publicity for the college.
[00:20:43] Tommy Thomas: So on your team you mentioned you had one rookie. Did you have a kind of a mixed bag of seasoned veterans and upstarts, or did you have to groom everything from the get-go?
[00:20:56] Paul Maurer: It was a bunch of interims and so I had to hire five cabinet members for my first year, and a friend of mine suggested that we were a version of Ernest Shackleton's or Antarctic Exploration. And if you know anything about those years, Shackleton had an ad that he placed in the London Times in 1912 and the ad read as follows, men wanted for hazardous journey, small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return, doubtful, honor and recognition in case of success.
And I gulped a few times, and then I went, that's actually who we are. We're the Christian college version of that. And I began to overtly recruit with that ad to the cabinet members who I was interviewing as finalists. And my simple question was, I asked them, I pulled up my phone, read this aloud, and then I would ask the question, does this ad excite you?
Hint, hint. The only right answer is something like, oh yes, very much. And that's the team that I hired to come here. In 2014 and 2015 they came from all over the country. My CFO had a Harvard MBA. My Chief Academic Officer had his PhD from Cornell. And these were really high achieving, high academic, highly experienced people.
But they came because they believed in this mission. They wanted to give their lives to something bigger. And I think they loved the challenge and to some degree they were willing to take the risk. Becuase I told them the only thing I can guarantee you is that you'll work harder than you've ever worked and you'll work faster than you've ever worked.
And beyond that, I don't know if we're going to be open six or 12 months from now. And they came.
[00:22:49] Tommy Thomas: So fast forward we're recording this in May. You've got the fall quarter coming in August. What do things look like for the next term?
[00:22:58] Paul Maurer: So enrollment has grown here by over 70% in the last eight years, our traditional undergrad.
And we're anticipating a new record enrollment for the fall of 23. We've added a number of new programs in our hundred percent online division. Most of those are master's programs. We now have 10 master's programs. Seven of them are in the last two years, and our online enrollment is beginning to grow because of those master's programs.
And then our signature program has become cybersecurity and we've added a organization underneath Montreat College to help harden the cybersecurity defenses for the state, but also to generate a new revenue stream for the college because in the end, we've got to build a new business model, a new revenue economic model for the college, which is not aimed at survival, but is aimed at thriving. We have no interest in survival. We have interest in leadership and thriving, and so we're trying to build something that's very robust in both educational and economic terms.
++++++++++++++++++++++=
[00:24:10] Tommy Thomas: Let's say that you had another one of these mega donors or foundations that came up to you and said they had a pretty large amount of money that they would give to you for your next big venture.
Do you have a guess of what that might be or that might be classified?
[00:24:28] Paul Maurer: I wouldn't say it's classified, I've got two or 300 million worth of those ventures because our vision is to become the school of choice for thoughtful evangelicals for the Southeast United States, the Premier Christ Center University for the Southeast United States. Combining academic rigor with biblical orthodoxy. We have a whole campus to build, to sustain the growth or to accommodate the growth that we envision. We'd like our traditional undergrad to be between 1,200. We're a little under 700 today, and our facilities are maxed out.
We’ve been out of beds for five years. We've been renting beds from camps and conference centers for five years now, six years. We've got residence halls to build. We've got academic buildings to build. We've got athletic facilities to build. We've got the property. We just need the capital to build the campus.
I need to build the endowment. We know that. We have to be able to fund scholarships beyond our discount rate, operational scholarships and we want to start things in surrounding cities around us. I'm looking to really become the college to be known and trusted as is the premier Christ Center University.
Like in the city of Charlotte, which is two hours from us. It's far enough for the students, not too far for the parents and because we're the last Christ-centered four year college in the state of North Carolina, that's a footprint that we need to grow. So I literally have, Tommy, probably two, three, four hundred million worth of projects and we're ready to go with a good bit of that.
We just need the cash to do that.
[00:26:24] Tommy Thomas: I want to bring this part to a close before I switch over to board service. What's the main thing you wish somebody had told you earlier in your career?
[00:26:34] Paul Maurer: Not to think more highly of myself than I ought, pride is a way of creeping in with leaders. It certainly did with me and my first presidency.
This is my second presidency and my first presidency, honestly there was a part of me that thought they're lucky to have me. And I know that humility was not at the top of my value proposition. I don't think I was overbearing or narcissistic or anything but if you don't have humility as the top of your value proposition as a leader, and you allow yourself to drink some of the Kool-Aid that's going to have a bad effect.
And honestly, probably someone probably did tell me that ahead of time, I'm not sure I had the ears to hear it or that I heard it, but I wish I'd have embraced that lesson earlier in my career than I did.
[00:27:39] Tommy Thomas: If you were speaking next week to a group of incoming presidents from small liberal arts colleges around the United States, what would be the theme of your address?
[00:27:51] Paul Maurer: I started my first presidency 13 or 14 years ago, and I remember going to the president's conferences and coming back after two or three of those, and I said to my cabinet, here's my takeaway, change or die. And then I was out of the presidency for a couple years. I began to go back to those meetings again.
When I came to Montreat nine years ago, and I came back to my cabinet, I said, they've inserted the words fast change, faster, die. We've taken on the mindset of a startup. So we consider ourselves a 107 year old startup. We're not a turnaround. We're not maintainers, we're not traditionalists. We try to employ the principles of a startup, meaning we're creating something new.
And so I think in the next five to 10 years, we're going to see a pretty dramatic change in the number of colleges and universities in the United States. The enrollment cliff is real. The declining birth rates are real. And it's going to have a really major impact on the number of schools that close.
The most vulnerable schools are the state universities that are losing enrollment and not filling space. So I think in those cases, the state systems will do mergers. Privates aren't prone to mergers. And so I think we're going to see more closures of small privates unless the presidents of those institutions are creative and agile and willing to take risks and invest heavily in things that work and starve things that aren't, and end tenure and act more like a startup.
Fail fast, make decisions with deliberation and speed. And I think to the degree that we're going to see success among the privates in particular, I think the presidents will embody some combination of those qualities.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Join us again next week as we continue this conversation with Paul Maurer. That episode will take a deep dive into Paul's experience in board service and governance.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Montreat College Website
The Miracle at Montreat
Montreat College Facebook
Montreat College Instagram
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Paul Maurer's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Jerry White: Risk has to be uncertain categories. There's legal risk, there's financial risk, and then there's what I call uncontrolled risk of things you don't expect that the government may impose. What if they decide for our property at Glen Erie that it no longer is going be tax exempt?
Or what if the state were to do that sort of thing? Those are risks over which we have no control. The risk on leveraged investments, I think, is quite important. For instance, you may propose to a larger organization a $3 million project, but the money is not in the bank. And you have four donors who said they'll fund it, but will they, and if they do, what voice should they have in it? That's a huge thing.
Money given with strings attached is really quite risky.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:01:02] Tommy Thomas: In this episode, we will conclude the conversation that we began with Jerry White in Episode 85. If you didn't hear that episode, Jerry White is the Preston Emeritus of The Navigators International. Prior to that he enjoyed a distinguished career in the United States Air Force, retiring as a two-star general. One of the reasons I wanted Jerry to be a guest is because of the depth of his nonprofit board service.
Among the boards he has served include
- World Vision,
- The Navigators.
- Christian Leadership Alliance.
- The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.
- The Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization.
- The Air Force Association.
Let's pick up the conversation where we were beginning to discuss board governance.
Let's shift over to board service. How did your first board show up?
[00:01:56] Jerry White: My first board that I served on was a small organization and besides a church board, every board is different. When I got into leading boards, like the Christian Leadership Alliance and being on boards like World Vision and leading The Navigator board the biggest thing is who you have on the board. And that they understand what their role is on the board.
And my view is that they're not operational. They don't make operational decisions, and they give the CEO a clear path to glide on. And hold that person accountable.
And on the board service, I found it extremely important to have people of varied backgrounds and competencies so that we weren't all monolithic and the board could not be a rubber stamp board, whatever the leader wants.
Yeah, that's fine. Just go ahead and do it. But to take on true, what I call policy governance, and to realize that you aren't running it, but you're holding the CEO accountable for what they say they're going to do. And once in a while you have to intervene.
[00:03:14] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned having the right people on the board. What is the secret sauce?
[00:03:20] Jerry White: One secret sauce is you don't bring them on just because they've got money. That's probably the worst criteria you can have if people do not share the vision of that organization on whose board they serve. You don't want them on there. And if they happen to have wealth and are generous people, that's fine, but we don't own them.
They have to be people who give more broadly. And before we bring someone on the board we have to first make sure for me, in the Christian world, to make sure that there are people of spiritual maturity. Not just people with a high reputation or lead a big church or are well known. I would not care if none of the people on my board were well known as long as they were people of high integrity and then have had some experience.
We're always pushing for getting a younger generation of board members, but there's a limit to that. You have to be sure that they're really qualified as they come in. And then the next thing that I feel is extremely important is you train. You train them how to be a board member and what's expected of them as a board member.
In a few weeks, I'll be going to Kenya with The Navigators and we'll be gathering the board chairman from all over the world for a time of interaction and sharing. That's a trickier one, by the way, when you become a board chair, is how to become a board chair, particularly in our developing world where things aren't quite westernized as much.
Yeah. And what should a board really do? Because people have different experiences. It's different from a second board, a secondary board who has financial responsibility and is held accountable for the quantitative results of the organization. That's a whole different picture, a different kind of board.
[00:05:40] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to the board chair. Give me some words and phrases that would describe the best board chair you've ever seen or served under.
[00:05:48] Jerry White: I'll tell you, there are two board chairs that I think of. One was a man by the name of Clay Brown. He wasn't the board chair, because I was chairman at the time.
But he was certainly the key senior statesman on our board. He was measured. He was wise. He had a strong business background, and he had a passion for what we did. Our current Board Chair for The Navigators is doing an absolutely remarkable job and he leads several companies but has really given himself to being Chairman of The Navigator US board.
The other thing is that the Board Chairman cannot be a jack of all trades. In other words, they can't be chairman of five different boards at once. Because I don't think anybody who has another job has that kind of time. But in knowing that they bear a particular responsibility within that organization to draw together the board, the executive team or the executive committee, and to really help lead them and keep them in their track and their track being on the policy governance side.
And so the board chairs, and when I've done a board, I hope I've done this, is to really be prepared. You do not do this on the backhand, walking into a board meeting and 10 minutes ahead of time asking the CEO – what’s the agenda?
[00:07:25] Tommy Thomas: Speaking about that working relationship, I know that's critical. Think back on your experience. How often does the Board Chair need to meet with his or her CEO?
[00:07:35] Jerry White: First of all, they need to be friends, but I remember as a board member of a particular organization I wanted to be friends with the CEO and very much was.
Then I became Board Chair and I said to him, our relationship is going to be a little different. I am your friend, but also, I'm accountable for the direction of the organization. And therefore, I'm going to be asking things of you that maybe I would not do if I was just a good buddy walking alongside and wanting to affirm you.
So I think you need to be friends, but you'll also need to know that you have the responsibility for the policy direction of the organization and for the health and wellbeing of the CEO.
[00:08:27] Tommy Thomas: Go to that board meeting for a minute. What's been your best experience and who sets the agenda for the Board Meeting?
[00:08:32] Jerry White: For me, the Executive Committee needs to set the agenda. It needs to be proposed by the CEO because he knows the action items. And you've got certain performer things you've got to do on accountability of finances and income and disbursements and so forth and certain things on personnel.
But I would want the CEO to come up with a list of what needs to be addressed, work with that CEO and perhaps the CFO to create an agenda with the Executive Committee that actually says how is this going to serve the work? And what are the decisions?
And I have three ways of assessing an agenda for the Board Meeting.
- What is information? We don't have to make any decision on it.
- What is counsel? The CEO or somebody wants counsel on a particular item.
- What decision needs to be made?
So, every topic in the board meeting, I like to write along the side, the margin, inform counsel, decide.
[00:09:48] Tommy Thomas: From a functional point of view, they wouldn't necessarily be in any order. They just as they come up, they're one of those three.
[00:09:58] Jerry White: No, it'd be one of the three. Your board meeting is usually divided into segments.
- The CEO Report
- The Field Ministry Report
- The CFO Report
Then there's a legal report. There may be certain personnel decisions that need to be affirmed. And by the way, that could be another way you would put it to affirm a decision. That's a little weak. And so you would structure your meeting not according to what you're going to decide, but according to what topics need to be addressed in the 24 hours you have together.
And by the way, to really require that homework be done on the part of the staff making the decisions that “read-aheads” are there. And the right people come to make reports inside the meetings.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:10:51] Tommy Thomas: When somebody joins your board what does onboarding look like?
[00:10:55] Jerry White: The onboarding looks for several organizations I've been working for two to three years with before they come on board, talking with them about it, seeing their interest, getting a biography, bringing it to what I would call the nomination committee of the board. And the good boards that I work with have a roster of people that they're talking to that's very confidential and some of them never come on the board.
And then as they are approaching it, you may even ask someone to actually sit in on a board meeting. And to see whether or not it meets their expectations. That isn't always possible. But in one board that I'm on, we have some junior members on it. This is on a board where we have younger leaders who come and serve for two years, and they don't stay on the board, just to give them experience.
But then when you're onboarding, every board annually at least, there needs to be, in my mind, an orientation for the board where you go over the history of the board, you go over things. So they're not just in a befuddled mystery at terminology and history. It's like being in a family joke and nobody knows what the story was behind it.
They have things that are ongoing and they have no clue. We need to bring them up to speed, both emotionally, historically, and personally. And it doesn't need to be long. It's for maybe half a day. And I've done this in a secular organization too, insisting that no one come on the board who doesn't have some orientation, both as to what a board does and what a board has done.
[00:12:55] Tommy Thomas: Do you do a meeting evaluation or how do you keep your meetings fresh?
[00:13:00] Jerry White: Most boards do have a little evaluation afterward that they fill out. It's often, Tommy, their perfunctory and there of some limited value, the value mainly being that you asked, but I think the Chairman and the CEO, when they see things happening in the board, that afterwards they need to interact with them and saying, what do you think about it?
How do you feel that board meeting went? And now that you've been in on X number of board meetings, say to tell me what you think and how can we help you be a better board member? Committee assignments are pretty important. Also, when I went on one board, it took me, Tommy, it took me two years to really figure out what was going on.
And I served nine years and it was such a complex organization that it was really hard and took a lot of work to try and understand the dynamics behind this organization
[00:14:08] Tommy Thomas: Let me ask you to respond to this quote. “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.”
[00:14:21] Jerry White: In one board that I'm on, we appoint someone at every board meeting to be what we call a responsible skeptic. And that person is designated ahead of time. And that person, their job in that board meeting is to be a bit skeptical. Now, I think you have to be a little careful about always having a person who's always skeptical.
I don't think I want a board member who every time something comes up, they raise their eyebrow, and you wonder what they're thinking. I think everybody ought to be a little skeptical at some time. And the main thing is if they don't understand something they need to ask. In other words, they need to do it.
I was in a board meeting recently where a particular decision was in the process. And two of us on the board, I was an emeritus to the board, and the other was on the board. And I could tell there was a bit of discomfort. And so the chair asked that other person, they hadn't said anything, what do you think?
And came up with a pretty good counter. Now I haven't got real good hearing, so I couldn't hear what he said. And then the board chair said, Jerry, what do you think? And I was like a deer caught in the headlights. And I said I couldn't hear what he said. And I said, we said exactly the same thing.
And what was moving down the road to be a crafted decision was put aside and not done. I'm very wary of creating board actions on the spot, a statement or whatever it may be. The best way is to say, would somebody take this and come up in three or four hours, take a coffee break and craft us a statement on what we're trying to do.
So I do believe that the chair needs to be able to look in the eyeball all around the way and see if there are some questions or if someone has been particularly silent, I think you need to say what do you think?
++++++++++++++++
[00:16:34] Tommy Thomas: How do you draw that quiet board member out? Some people just don't speak up unless they have something to say, which is probably a good thing. But how do you draw the quiet person out?
[00:16:46] Jerry White: I just say, Jack, what do you think about that? I say be very direct. I say, you've been listening to this discussion. Do you have anything to say?
I don't want to force him to have to say something, but I say, this may be the expertise of the person that I'm asking. And I'll say Joan, your expertise is in this area, I know you've been through this before. What are we not hearing? What questions do you have?
And that gives them freedom to speak out. And the other thing is I don't think people should speak out, particularly declaratively. That is, I believe this, and you got to do this. And I don't like that because that puts themselves on the table. But people learn to be able to share in a non-confrontive fashion.
[00:17:44] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to financial accountability. You and I are old enough to remember the Enron scandal, and then if you've been paying any attention to the last two or three days, you've seen the Silicon Valley Bank go under. In both of those things, there was board culpability. Neither were nonprofit, but they will both board culpability. How do you get your boards to make sure you're addressing the financial aspect, a judiciary responsibility of the board?
[00:18:10] Jerry White:
It's a CEO's responsibility to make sure that the right questions are answered. And it's got to be more than just an audit. We want a clean audit.
And you don't want to have to go to the bottom notes and say, here's something we should correct, but we need to guide the board through the financial realities of what we're doing. But at the end of it, I think you need to have a risk analysis that says, okay, where are we vulnerable?
For instance, in our litigious society today, we have a lot of risk, and I think of ministries that have Christian camps and all the sexual liabilities and all of that. They are at risk all the time when you're working with minors and then I think people need to ask questions of the CFO and the auditor, where do you see us being at risk?
What would happen if, what if happened? You have a September 11 or you have a Covid pandemic. And you have to say, our whole income stream is going to be jeopardized. And then I think you need to look and say, where are our major vulnerabilities for both expenditure as well as income? Now that's, it's very different in a Christian organization than it is a secular organization like an Enron or the banks or whatever it is.
The fault there goes so that people don't ask questions, or that the actual realities have been hidden from it and just saying, oh, it'll be okay.
++++++++++++++++++=
[00:19:56] Tommy Thomas: From your perspective, how does the board get involved in strategic planning?
[00:20:02] Jerry White: Boy, that is a good question, Tommy. The question is, who does the strategic planning? Okay. Let's say that we're in a very small developing organization amid developing, and a large organization, they're very different and the very smallest organizations, the board may be highly engaged in the strategic plan because it's such a small organization and they're so fragile.
As a general rule of thumb, the board may do strategic thinking, but strategic planning has to be on the part of the CEO and his or her staff.
And the plan needs to be brought to the board for their interaction. And then approval. And that's particularly true with a large organization.
The board can't do strategic planning. They can do some strategic planning for the board. That is, how should we develop our board? What expertise do we need? But as far as a ministry for most organizations, as large as the navigators or crew or some others, they aren't gonna know the details of what's going on out in the field or how they have to pretty well react and respond to the strategic planning initiatives that they may come up with.
How many staff, what countries are we doing to go into? What are we not going to do? What are we gonna stop doing etc. So the board certainly needs to approve the strategic plan. Chances are, even when they do that, They won't know it very well. I'm just sorry that, when you're not, when you don't have to carry out a strategic plan, it's hard to really know it.
[00:22:00] Tommy Thomas: The ones that created it, that have been involved in hammering it out, they're the ones that know it.
[00:22:06] Jerry White: That's right. And then you have to, with every strategic plan, you have to set, have a set of outcomes and a set of risks, and then you have to say, how much is it going to cost to implement this?
[00:22:22] Tommy Thomas: I think the risk thing, that could almost be a podcast in and of itself. I interviewed Dr. Sandra Gray, the President Emeritus at Asbury University and she was a former banker before she got into higher ed. And her thought was that nonprofit boards probably don't pay enough attention to the risk of the organization.
[00:22:40] Jerry White: I think there's no question on that, especially risk has to be uncertain categories.
There's legal risk, there's financial risk, and then there's what I call uncontrolled risk of things you don't expect that the government may impose.
What if they decide for our property at Glen Erie that it no longer is going to be tax exempt?
Or what if the state were to do that sort of thing? Those are risks over which we have no control and the risk on leveraged investments, I think is quite important. For instance, you may propose to a larger organization a $3 million project, but the money is not in the bank. And you have four donors who said they'll fund it, but will they, and if they do, what voice should they have in it? That's a huge thing. Money given with strings on it is really quite risky.
[00:23:46] Tommy Thomas: Hadn't thought of that.
[00:23:46] Jerry White: And I've served on the board of the ECFA and they're very good at this. In terms of helping people think through risk and failure and financial accountability.
[00:24:01] Tommy Thomas: Let's look at the CEO evaluation. I know you've been involved in a number of those, and you've been evaluated as a CEO. What are some takeaways?
[00:24:10] Jerry White: You must be evaluated. Now we have a number of kinds of evaluations. You have a 360 evaluation, and some people are very skilled at that.
It's very threatening to some CEOs, but it's necessary. I feel that there needs to be an evaluation within the organization, I had one. I had someone who evaluated me every year and they had the freedom, and they did call my wife, call my kids, talked to my coworkers, my peers, talked to those who worked for me, gave a free reign to ask certain questions.
The questions need to be carefully thought through. They can't be so invasive. But the evaluation is of several levels. One is certain on a moral personal level. I do not think a committee can do that. Every CEO needs to have the kind of people in their lives who will blow the whistle on them if they say anything wrong.
And the small Executive Committee needs to be aware of how that could happen. The second in terms of an evaluation is performance against set out goals. The third is relational. How's their team going? What do they think? What are the issues? And to give the feedback to the CEO and I think to give it privately and then in the board, and we do this to give a summary analysis, but the board should not be privy to the detailed questions.
It's a really touchy process. And the evaluation needs to be, not be a pass fail, but Loren Sanny taught me it should be a progress review. How are you making progress toward the things that you have said you want to do?
[00:26:15] Tommy Thomas: Let me close with a question that I ask often, particularly to people that have been on boards a long time as you have. How has board service changed over the last decade?
[00:26:25] Jerry White: I'm not sure about the last decade, but certainly over the last two decades the area of risk and financial accountability has increased tremendously.
The litigiousness of our society has made a tremendous impact on how a board functions. So those two things, the financial accountability and the potential lawsuits and things of that nature. Tommy, I don't know that I can make a generalist statement about how boards have changed, but I can say that through the last 20 to 30 years, the boards have become more important and more vital to our organization's future than they were a number of years ago.
Many years ago, even in The Navigators, the board was a cheering section for Dawson Trotman and Lawrence Annie. Go get 'em and thanks for letting us know what's going on. To a point where we had to be accountable for the finances. 911 changed everything, by the way, particularly for anyone operating internationally.
When you're sending money across international boundaries, you have a whole different level of accountability financially imposed by the government. And I'm speaking only from the viewpoint of the United States, and you get into all these other countries with all different kinds of demands and requirements and corruption and what have you.
The boards have become far more important to the organization's health. And I think the public has a right to know who's on your board. And when I look at an organization as I've done even the last few days, and I look through who the board members are, it isn't that I need to know them, but that they're there as real people with real names that if one needed to, you could connect with them.
++++++++++++++++++++++
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jerry White. If you're ever at a conference where Jerry is speaking or leading a breakout session, make sure you attend those sessions. We all have so much to learn from Jerry White. Our guest next week is Paul Mauer. Paul is the president of Montreat College.
When Paul was selected to be the President of Montreat, the college wasn't very far from closing its doors. What has happened at Montreat over the past nine years is nothing short of miraculous.
[00:29:06] Paul Maurer: I started my first presidency 13 or 14 years ago, and I remember going to the president's conferences and coming back after two or three of those, and I said to my cabinet, here's my takeaway, change or die. And then I was out of the presidency for a couple years. I began to go back to those meetings again.
When I came to Montreat nine years ago, I came back to my cabinet, I said, they've inserted the words fast change, faster, die. We've taken on the mindset of a startup. So, we consider ourselves a 107-year-old startup. We're not a turnaround. We're not maintainers. We're not traditionalists. We try to employ the principles of a startup, meaning we're creating something new.
And so, I think in the next five to ten years, we're going to see a pretty dramatic change in the number of colleges and universities in the United States. The enrollment cliff is real. The declining birth rates are real. And it's going to have a really major impact on the number of schools that close.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Navigators
Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability
Christian Leadership Alliance
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Jerry White's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Lisa Cummins: I think the question I would ask is what is your employee turnover? And because I have found nonprofits come and go, employee turnover helps me understand what your commitment is to, what your ability is to lead, and what your consistency is with your values. Because if you're not consistent, employees won't stay long.
++++++++++++++++++++=
Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Lisa Trevino Cummins.
Lisa spent the first 12 plus years of her career with Bank of America where she expanded the bank's community development initiative to become one of the first national corporations to partner with faith-based organizations in underserved neighborhoods. From Bank of America, Lisa was called to help launch the White House Community and Faith-Based Initiative. In 2003, she started Urban Strategies where she continues her work to make resources more available to underserved communities.
Since founding Urban Strategies, Lisa has been a catalyst of several initiatives that resulted in almost $40 million of new programming focused in low-income communities.
Let's pick up the conversation when I was asking her about the early days of Urban Strategies.
[00:01:23] Tommy Thomas: You're probably not the first founder I've interviewed but you'd be one of the first. What was the genesis of Urban Strategies?
[00:01:29] Lisa Cummins: Yeah, I mentioned that I worked for 12 years with Bank of America and about the last five years of that, and again, I had this parallel path of working in the bank and being fairly successful in that.
And then the second parallel path to that was working in the church. And really that's where my heart was about year seven or eight into this journey of the bank. I started questioning why those two paths were divergent. Why, if I'm talking about if I'm working in the bank to address communities in need and why is that different?
Why is my church life not connected there? I read a book called The Jesus I Never Knew by Philip Yancey. And that really helped highlight the passages in the scripture that, even though I've read the Bible three or four times, I really never saw those passages in Matthew about serving those in need, about loving your neighbor, about justice, about God's heart for the poor.
When he talks to the Israelites and judges has some judgment on the Israelites because of how they treated the marginalized. So, I had this, what I call a “holy agitation” and where my spirit was struggling with this, and about that time the Lord, it was the Lord.
But the bank asked me to move to St. Louis to help start the community development group I had in Texas, to help start that in a bank that we had purchased in the Midwest. So, I had five states reporting to me. Developing from the ground up. It was a hard move because I was really on the fast track in San Antonio politically and socially.
So I ended up moving to the Midwest and it was a hard transition. We didn't know anyone there. That community was not familiar with the culture that I came from. Spaghetti sauce substituted for hot sauce at the time, and that's hard for a Texan. And during that time we ended up at a church that was not part of my tradition.
I was from a Pentecostal background. This church was a PCA church. And long story short,
We saw, in action, the answer to that question and that holy agitation I was wrestling with because this congregation was very intentional about reconciling people to God and reconciling people to one another.
And so, you had a congregation before multiculturalism became popular. They were really living that out and very intentional about it. And that became a pivotal point for me in terms of recognizing the role, the opportunity, the obligation that the faith community had to serving its neighbors, to loving its neighbors.
And one thing led to the other. My pastor in Texas, I had brought him to the Midwest, said, you got to see what I'm talking about. And so he said, he came 24 hours. He said, Lisa, my world's been turned upside down and I'm going to meet with the governor next week. Can I tell him about this? I'm like, sure, you can tell whoever you want to.
It happened to be Governor George W. Bush. And so, when they met it wasn't long after that I got a call from the governor's office and said, hey, we want to understand what you're doing and what you're working on because that’s something we want to do in Texas.
And so, the governor became president and then they asked, we want help. We want to develop this faith-based initiative nationally. Can you come to the White House and help us do that?
I had three kids under three. The twin boys that were six months and my daughter, who was two and a half and my husband. We moved to DC and ended up working there for a couple years.
[00:05:23] Tommy Thomas: So, when you finally spun off and went out on your own what was that first year like?
[00:05:27] Lisa Cummins: The first year was, when you work in the government, it’s illegal to set up your business for when you're going to be, for when or relationships or anything, or when you're going to exit. I exited because I felt that my calling was to work with the church to love its neighbors. I had come to the end of what I could do with that internal to the government.
And I saw the need and opportunities on the outside of the government to still further move along that calling. And so, I left the government, and I remember driving. I was like, I'm going to do this. I don't know how, I don't know where, but this is the work I have to continue.
And so, I let folks know that was happening. And I got a couple of small contracts. I remember that first check, I don't know, it was $10,000 or something. And I was so proud of that because I am entrepreneurial and just that sense of being able to build something and then get paid for it was pretty cool.
But it was a time of learning. It was a time of flexibility. It was a time of really trying to find my way. I remember there's a fellow named Gordon Loux, I don't know if you know him. He always said, Lisa, the challenge you're going to have is figuring out where you're going to focus.
And he's right. We do all kinds of work, but the common thread has been low income or it's not low income. The common thread has been working with Latino populations. Why? Because that's what I know best. And working with the church. And today we do that in all 50 states.
We do that in Puerto Rico, we do that in Central America and do in all kinds of arenas. I'm sorry, I think I diverted from your original question. I remember Tommy, I will say one vivid recollection I have, it was about August, September of that first year of 2002.
This is our 20th anniversary at Urban Strategies. And I remember being really frustrated because I saw the need was so significant in communities and I didn't have any resources. I remember a woman saying, Lisa, I don't think we need federal funds because God owns the cattle on a thousand hills.
I'm like, I agree that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, but where those resources are, they're not being released to the communities I work in. So where I do have access is federal funding. And I was wrestling with that idea and wrestling with God about why is it so hard to get resources?
And I never got an answer on why, but I got the comfort of understanding that if I'm doing God's work, God's going to provide. And so, I was able to let that go. Let that go. And God has.
[00:08:22] Tommy Thomas: So, what counsel would you give an up-and-coming wannabe founder?
[00:08:29] Lisa Cummins: I go back to what that pastor told me 20 something years ago, to make sure it's what you're called to do.
The work that is called to do. Two is not make your ownership the goal but make your goal that calling. That calling can be pursued in a number of different ways. It can be in partnership, it could be like, I was in banking, I was very much an entrepreneur in banking even though I was part of this structured company of 60,000 employees.
But I was running my own thing. So, I think it's really important to not think, not to lead with the form or the structure, but lead with the calling and purpose. And I think the form of structure then will come and will be made known. You'll understand what that is.
If in fact that means setting up your own organization, I would say keep your costs low. I'm still at the office where, this call is from my home. So, I was doing remote work 20 years ago, before it became popular. Our headquarters folks asked us today, where is your headquarters?
I'm here in Arlington and this has been my office for the last 20 years, but we don't have a headquarters because we're based all over the country. I didn't make those big expenses early on and so it gave me some freedom to not have to worry about how I was going to pay for those things.
And it allowed me to focus in on again, what my purpose in calling had been.
++++++++++++++++++++++=
[00:10:00] Tommy Thomas: Another question first. And you may have answered this all along the way, but can you think of a time when you felt like you had found your professional voice that you know, that you were comfortable in your skin?
[00:10:13] Lisa Cummins: Yeah. Tommy, that's an interesting question. I think it depends on who is listening to that voice. I think being raised in a community where you're the first or you're the only one has caused me to be hesitant about my voice. Even among people who are well-meaning and I know are great folks, the differences in our upbringing, in our culture, in our understanding and our experiences would cause me to be comfortable in a second seat. Because for me to be comfortable, behind someone in leadership or behind someone that's front stage. I think there's some real benefit to that.
Because I think that comes with having a sense of humility that requires me to really focus on what is it that matters to me. Is it that I'm at the front with a microphone or is it that this gets done right? And so, I think there's been a lot of that. Having said that, over time it's funny when people say wow, you're an expert at this. I'm like, I don't feel like it's just because I've lived longer, it's just because I have a few more gray hairs. That I've been able to speak on things. And so, I think in the last 10 years, I think I actually have become more comfortable in my voice.
I have, and in some ways that's a sad reality because I think I had a lot to contribute prior to 10 years ago. And having said that, I think that I am not as concerned anymore about what others think, nor as concerned about what others might think. And there's a term that our culture uses today that's called gaslighting.
And as I understand it, gaslighting is causing people to believe that it's their failure. That has resulted in x, y, z consequences rather than the person that's doing the gaslighting. And I think in some ways I've allowed myself to be in that place of being the individual, the part of a community that is at fault or is less than or it comes short and hasn't recognized the value that I bring to the table.
I think Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book about David and Goliath that's along those lines about, everyone saw David as the minuscule person who's going to be tossed and defeated, etc. But David's experiences brought him some things that really allow, besides the divine, besides God being part of that story.
But it allowed David to bring some understanding of resilience, of working under pressure of working with, few less resources, etc. That's what my community has brought to the table, and I think I've, over the last 10 years, I've owned that more than I had in the past.
[00:13:21] Tommy Thomas: Earlier in the conversation you were talking about transparency and maybe you said you might've got hurt a little bit there. This is a quote from Joyce Meyer that I'd like for you to respond to. She writes about what she calls the Judas Kiss Test - The test of being portrayed by friends that we have loved, respected, and trusted. Most people in positions of leadership for any length of time are likely to experience this.
[00:13:48] Lisa Cummins: Unfortunately, if I've experienced that more times than I'd like to, that I'd like to admit, and hopefully I haven't been the perpetrator of that for anyone else.
I think when power and greed come to the picture things change and I think all of us are susceptible to that.
And I think that I've had some very difficult situations that have been driven at, in hindsight by those two things. And I think for me, the key is what I need, I am always checking myself to make sure that I'm on the right side of that story. And if I'm not to make amends and to identify what there is that I can, that I need to adjust on my end. But yeah, there’s been things, and I think any business owner, any leader,you're susceptible to folks who maybe at one time, they were the best of, they were the trusted confidant, but something changed in their environment.
Something changed, and those that influenced them, something changed in their circumstances that caused them then to make this Judas kiss. Ironically, we're talking about it this week. But yeah, those are very hurtful and that's probably been the most difficult part of my career is those circumstances and, if I didn't care about folks it wouldn't matter. But the ones that hurt the most are the ones that were people you care about the most. That's where it's going to hurt the most. And it's just part of where we are, part of humanity. And so I try to learn from that. I try to also appreciate, a friend of mine said, Lisa, don't ever trust me without accountability,and she's my most trusted friend.
But she said that to me because she loved me, and she knows that all of us have shortcomings. And I think accountability is key. And another friend told me, a banker that's been my friend now for the last 25 years, she's our CFO. She says check what is it, trust and verify.
And so I'm learning to do that better. Trust and verify.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:16:04] Tommy Thomas: Let's switch over to board service. Because obviously you report to a board, you serve on several boards. And I just would appreciate some of your input here. So, when did your first board show up?
[00:16:16] Lisa Cummins: So actually Tommy, I'm an LLC so, technically, I don't have a board. Having said that, we do have a couple of projects that require a board. So, we've set up a board for those projects. And I don't have a board, not primarily, just because when I started the organization that was establishing a 501(c) 3 and all the process that goes with that just wouldn't happen fast enough for the kinds of things I was doing.
Having said that, I do have people who I trust. And so I hold myself accountable to our CFO, to our employees. I hold myself accountable to, and then I have some outside friends that have been on the journey with me for decades who I hold myself accountable to.
So having said that I do serve, I have served on a number of boards. And so, I think there are different kinds of boards. Some are boards where it's as a good friend said, nose in, hands out, and then other boards where it's like, we need you all in. So, it depends on where the organization is.
Their life cycle, the maturity of the board organization, the kind of resources they have, etc, that determine then what kind of board you're going to have and what kind of board members that you need.
[00:17:36] Tommy Thomas: You've served on the World Vision Board. That's a big one, obviously. Maybe you can highlight some differences about the big board like that versus some of the smaller boards you've served on.
[00:17:47] Lisa Cummins: Yeah, so I think World Vision, it was a nine-year term, three, three-year terms. It was a great experience.
I think I learned a lot and hopefully I was able to contribute from my experience and knowledge with equal value. I think that World Vision is a very large organization, and so the best way to serve them is by asking those tough strategic questions. And by those questions that really are looking at more systems and strategy policy versus.
Another board here in my community that I've been part of where I was signing time cards and helping make calls on fundraising and those sorts of things. So, they're very different. I have served on a public board which is Texas Teacher Retirement System.
It was only for about a year and a half because I had to withdraw since I was moving to DC, that board was very interesting. It's politically appointed members of the board. And I remember learning that I was approved to serve on that board. It was, at the time it was a 60 billion fund.
I don't know what it is today. Probably double that if not more. But I remember I got a call from a gentleman, again, I hadn't been to a board meeting, just got word. And he says, hello, Lisa. This is Bo in his West Texas accent. Welcome to the board. What side are you on?
Oh, I said I don't know, the teacher side.
And it was a board where there were some issues that there would be sideline meetings on who's going to, who's going to join with who. And alliances met. That was crazy. And I was appointed by Governor Bush. And so, it's interesting and even serving in the Republican administration, I've never been a partisan person.
I try to vote and do what I feel like is best according to my biblical perspective, and so folks assume I go this way on one item and another way on another item, and I don't do that. And so I think that on that, even on that board, whether it was talking about how you're going to invest funds, or you're going to, how much are you going to put in versus how much you're going to put in funds.
There was political haggling going on. I've just tried to stay true to what my values are, and that's what I bring. I can't bring anything else. And so if that doesn't work, then that's probably not a good place for me.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:20:35] Tommy Thomas: I've started asking in the last month or so, my Shark Tank question.
If you were on a nonprofit version of a Shark Tank, what questions would you need answered before you opened your checkbook?
[00:20:48] Lisa Cummins: I was ready to tell you what my investment opportunity was. I have that one, I have a few of those ready.
I think the question I would ask is what is your employee turnover? Because I have found nonprofits come and go and employee turnover helps me understand what your commitment is to, what your ability is to lead, what your consistency is with your values.
Because if you're not consistent, employees won't stay long. Maybe you can explain them once or twice, but if you have an ongoing record of employees that are leaving, then there's a problem there. The other thing I would ask is a lot of nonprofits talk about partners.
Let's say, describe the continuum of partnership with these organizations. When you say your partner is this because you dropped off a leaflet at their door sometimes, that's okay. Depends on what the goal is or is this talking about someone who you know their name, right?
You know their name and you know their story and so you're trying to get at it in a deeper way. Those kinds of things. Yeah, I think those are a couple of questions I would ask. I would also ask how well, and this is important, not just for, some people will say, this is a political thing and it's not.
How well does your organization reflect the communities you're serving? Because if it doesn't, that means that there's probably a sense of a pejorative type of approach that is not going to be that way. What could be, and it'll result in less results than what could be.
Does that make sense?
[00:22:43] Tommy Thomas: Yes. If a nonprofit calls you and they're looking for a little consulting and you're going to put together a dashboard of things that you would be looking at a glance to check on their health what would that dashboard look like.
[00:22:56] Lisa Cummins: Yeah, so I think it's who are you partnering with and what are the depths of those partners? Do you know how to partner, can you partner too? What is your employee retention rate? I think the third would be your 30, 60, 90-day accounts payables and 30, 60, 90-day receivables.
What does that look like? And accounts payables are very concerning. Obviously if you're 60 days behind in paying, you're like, what's going on here? And how long has this been the case? And so that relates to some of the financials. I would look at the composition of leadership and experiences that they bring.
I think I would also look at if, and I get calls all the time, organizations wanting to start something. What have I asked? In looking for resources, I ask, what have you already done with the resources that you have? And so if you're in organizations, I want to start them. I want to work to serve my neighborhood and work with kids.
Kids need something. I said okay, what's the name of the school principal in your neighborhood? And they don't know that then that's a sign to me that they haven't done their homework. They haven't done enough work, they haven't been driven enough to do this even without resources.
Because I think if you are driven and called, you're going to figure out a way to do it. It may not be all that you want to do, and it may not be, but it says that you're going to do something with the time and the health that you have.
[00:24:27] Tommy Thomas: What do you wish a younger version of yourself had known and acted upon?
[00:24:33] Lisa Cummins: I think my younger self, it would've been good to know that my voice matters and that difference doesn't mean that one is inferior to the other. And that hard work matters, but it's not the only thing that matters.
There's a scripture that talks about you can toil all day, but it'd be off or not. And I think that's important. So hard work matters, but the goal, the purpose, the reason that you're doing things you know that you've got to keep that forefront.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
In Episode 85, we began a conversation with Jerry White that we will conclude next week. If you didn't hear that episode, Jerry is the President Emeritus of The Navigators International. Prior to that, he enjoyed a distinguished career in the United States Air Force - retiring as a two-star general.
One of the reasons I wanted Jerry to be a guest is because of the depth of his nonprofit board service. Among the boards on which he has served are World Vision, The Navigators, Christian Leadership Alliance, Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, The Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization and the Air Force Association.
[00:26:06] Jerry White: In one board that I'm on, we appoint someone every board meeting to be what we call a responsible skeptic. And that person is designated ahead of time. their job in that board meeting is to be a bit skeptical. Now, I think you have to be a little careful about always having a person who's always skeptical.
I don't think I want a board member who every time something comes up, they raise their eyebrow, and you wonder what they're thinking. I think everybody ought to be a little skeptical at some time. And the main thing is if they don't understand something they need to ask.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Urban Strategies
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Lisa Trevino Cummin's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Lisa Cummins: I'm Hispanic, and so my growing up was in that context, Mexican American context. My church spoke Spanish. That's where I learned to speak Spanish, singing through the hymnals. Spanish was not my first language as it was with my parents because my parents had the experience, that was their first language, but they had the experience of being punished in school for speaking Spanish.
So they never taught me Spanish. They wanted to make sure I had English down. Which ironically, now 20 years later, I sent my children to a Spanish immersion school because we recognize the benefit of that.
+++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas: Today, we're beginning a two-part conversation with Lisa Trevino Cummins. Lisa spent the first 12 plus years of her career with Bank of America, where she expanded the bank's community development initiative to become one of the first national corporations to partner with faith-based organizations in underserved neighborhoods. From Bank of America, Lisa was called to help launch the White House Community and Faith Based Initiative to leverage the strength of community and faith-based organizations to serve children and families in need.
In 2003, she started Urban Strategies where she continues her work to make resources more available to underserved communities.
Since founding Urban Strategies, Lisa has been a catalyst of several initiatives that has resulted in almost $40 million of new programming focused in low-income communities.
[00:01:29] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional life. Take me back to your childhood and what was growing up like?
[00:01:35] Lisa Cummins: I grew up in Houston, Texas and my family, close family ties, my uncles and aunts were there and so when we had Thanksgiving there were about 60 of us on Thanksgiving and on Easter and Christmas.
And so very closely knit. Our church was very much a part of who we were. My grandparents were pastors since they had been married and then had subsequent generations who were also in ministry. So the church was very much part of our activities. So we had Easter services and then Friday night, Saturday and Sunday. And then our family activities revolved around that schedule.
[00:02:32] Tommy Thomas: What would you say is the best gift your parents gave you?
[00:02:35] Lisa Cummins: I think there's a few. One is a reverence for faith, a reverence for God and secondly, I think very much an entrepreneurial perspective. I've been told that some folks have used a slogan for me that says nothing's too complicated. And I think I learned that from my parents. Looking back, I didn't know that we were in poverty. I didn't know that those things didn't come.
I wasn't aware of those things. But my father worked long hours and then started a business at home, so another eight hours after his regular job. And mom was able to spend a lot of time with us in between jobs and that sort of thing. But we never noticed. We never missed anything.
But I think I always saw them as very entrepreneurial, always serving. That was a big part of what I've learned as well. We always had somebody living with us. There was always a handshake with an offering in it to help someone. So I learned a lot about service.
I learned a lot about resilience. I learned a lot about faith, and I learned a lot about resourcefulness.
[00:03:47] Tommy Thomas: Can you think of the first time that entrepreneurship showed up in your activities?
[00:03:52] Lisa Cummins: I think entrepreneurship is the idea of taking initiative. From just a social perspective, getting engaged in my church and starting things up, and let's do this and let's do that, let's organize around that. That was how it showed up in that way. I think from a business perspective, ironically, the first 12 years of my professional career were in banking.
And so, one job banking, and you wouldn't necessarily associate entrepreneurship with those two terms, but I was able to really create my job in banking. And by God's grace, I was able to shape and form something that really was taken from a responsibility that nobody wanted. But the Lord gave me insight in how to do that and what the benefit was. I stayed there 12 years and kept always a dynamic situation.
[00:04:44] Tommy Thomas: So, what was high school like in Houston?
[00:04:45] Lisa Cummins: I went to two high schools. I started out in engineering with a path for magnet school in engineering. So, it was an all-black school where this engineering program was on the second floor of the building.
I'm Hispanic, and so my growing up was in that context, Mexican American context. My church spoke Spanish. That's where I learned to speak Spanish, singing through the hymnals.
Spanish was not my first language as it was with my parents because my parents had the experience of, that was their first language, but they had the experience of being punished in school for speaking Spanish.
So they never taught me Spanish. They wanted to make sure I had English down. Ironically, now 20 years later, I sent my children to a Spanish immersion school because we recognized the benefit of that. So, I went to an all-black school and it was an amazing experience.
I loved it. And I played sports, I played basketball and volleyball. I was the only one on the team that wasn't black. But these girls became my dearest friends. And my parents would always come to my games and these girls would see my parents as their parents because they had no one rooting for them.
After my freshman year, I ended up going back to a neighborhood school, which was more mixed white and Hispanic. But when we'd go play the opposing teams, it happened to be that all-black school, and they'd look for my mom first thing, where's your mama?
Because they saw that she believed in them. Ironically when I went to this school again, basketball and volleyball. My teammates elected me to be the team captain. I was fairly good, but interestingly my coach would never play me.
She favored other girls and even though they all felt like I was a caliber of being on the team. But in high school, I learned through that. I learned about leadership, I learned about friends, friendships, relationships. But I will say that even throughout all of this I was a different one becuase I was very engaged in my church.
And because I was Hispanic, most folks thought I was Catholic, while I was Protestant, I wasn't Catholic. So just interesting navigating those things. My church community was very strong, and had a strong youth group. We'd meet together three times a week. I will say that when I graduated, now, this was 1983, from high school. There was a big deal made of graduating from high school as in most churches.
And so you come up to the front and they pray for you. When that happened to me, there's about 20 of us, and I think I'm the only one that finished college. Looking back, wow. But it wasn't because they weren't, they didn't have a capacity to be there were no, there was no access to resources, no access to the information.
And with my parents, it was just, there was no discussion of it. We were going to be, we were going to go to college, university. And so that was the case with myself and my three brothers. So it's an interesting background.
[00:07:59] Tommy Thomas: When you got to college, how did you decide upon a major?
[00:08:02] Lisa Cummins: I went to high college and I was going to go into engineering until I realized how much calculus I was going to have to take. So, I decided that I wouldn't do that, that I would do business, and just because that seemed the most practical and actually accounting, which, now I'm going on a podcast saying this.
I don't tell many people that I was an accounting major because they're going to expect things of me that I won't deliver. But I did go into accounting and that was an interesting place for me.
I actually ended up at Trinity University in San Antonio, which is considered the Ivy League of the South, if you will. And there were very affluent students, they were very affluent and I lived off campus. I was at school and attended every day. And I can tell you, Tommy, I probably had one friend. And there were many days I'd come home and realize I hadn't said a word.
And it just, I didn't feel welcomed. I didn't feel like I fit. Part of that was, I'm sure it was me, right? Not feeling like I'm sufficient enough or good enough to be in the conversations that folks were having. And so, they were having conversations about their summer vacation, going to Greece or somewhere like that.
And I was like what job am I going to have this summer? So there was just not an awareness among the differences. My back fall though was going to church. I went to school, and I worked so that I could be involved in the church in activities there.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:09:29] Tommy Thomas: What's something that most people would be surprised to learn about you?
[00:09:33] Lisa Cummins: Probably one that I was an accounting major. Two is that there were actually years in my life where I didn't speak to anyone. And I still play basketball. I play in a women's group on Sunday nights when I'm in town.
Because of my church background and my church tradition, I always say that you have to come out singing or playing an instrument. And so I did both of those things and, as initially I was learning while I was playing for the congregation, for our little youth group, and so if you could sing in the Ki Sea, then we were, we had something to go with.
[00:10:09] Tommy Thomas: I wasn't aware of your team sports background. What do you think you brought out of team sports that's helped you in life?
[00:10:16] Lisa Cummins: I think it's perseverance. I think it's working hard, preparing and I had fun doing that. And so I think enjoying, having fun building relationships and the people.
And I think the other thing is that
it's okay to lose, on some teams we had stellar years and others, it was great if we won one game for the season. But it was okay. It was okay to lose, just keep going on.
Which, as I say that to you, it's not something I've ever articulated previously, but I know in this day and age as we work with youth, there's a high level of anxiety that's unhealthy.
And I'm just wondering how much that has to do with the culture of striving to win and be the best and not being okay with losing and not being the best.
[00:11:14] Tommy Thomas: I think that's something all of us wrestle with. Yeah. I interviewed one of your peers at some level, Christin McClave a couple weeks ago and she talked about how we were creating a culture of always being evaluated and getting this checklist for getting better and better. And she had an interesting thought that she accredited the venture capital world with experimentation. Maybe not failure but the will to do it, and by definition, experimentation means all of them won’t work.
[00:11:45] Lisa Cummins: No, I think that's important, obviously there are boundaries on all of that. I think for me, the ability to, the willingness and ability to experiment is really based on trust of relationships. Because character matters. Is it somebody who's going to just get up and quit?
Or is it somebody who's going to stay and work at it? And I think that matters. And I know there's a lot of discussion in our country around race and those sorts of things, and that's not something I focus on often, but it is prevalent, and I think, for example, me growing up where I did, I never heard of InterVarsity until I was 35 years old.
I never heard of Young Life until I was 30, until I moved to Washington, right? And so, I did. So that's just an example of the limitation, resources and access. And as a result, relationships that I could trust and would trust me, that would allow me to venture. Wow. That's another podcast by itself, isn’t it?
[00:12:48] Tommy Thomas: Let's go back to your banking career. What I know about you from just what people that have told me about you, I would never put banking and Lisa in the same and probably not even service in Washington DC relative to the entrepreneurial, but let's go back to your banking days.
What do you remember about your first time you had to manage people?
[00:13:10] Lisa Cummins: It was interesting. I had my role and that's another whole story by itself, but it was just, there's no question that God had directed my paths, my path into the role that I ended up having. I guess I didn't manage folks until maybe five years into that role.
Okay, five to seven years into that role. But I will say prior to that, I wasn't managing folks, but there was a big, large team of people who had an indirect dotted line to me. So, I managed what was called community investment for the bank. And that was the statement underlying that there was an affirmative obligation of the bank to serve the needs of the credit needs of the community.
And our bank and other banks during that time, were willing to take deposits from anywhere they would come. Including churches, but they weren't willing to make loans to those same communities or churches. And so there was a law that was enacted in the seventies that said, banks need to do something different about that.
And when I came into banking there were a lot of consequences for not doing well in that area. So as a result, the bank had made a commitment that all of the areas of the bank would be more engaged and take more initiative and have affirmative action, if you will, of looking at opportunities for these areas.
That previously had been what's called redlined, which was specifically, there were maps on the wall that said that instead of an X, they'd cover it with, surround it with a red line and cover it in and say, no, we're not going there. And so I had the director of mortgage banking, the director of consumer lending, the director of commercial lending, director of real estate, director of HR, part of their performance evaluation included a component of how did you do with community investment?
And it gave me a lot of leverage as a 25-year-old going into the bank where everybody else was 10 to 15 years older than me and majority male. And so that was a leadership experience, but different than the traditional people reporting to me. Again, five, seven years later, I did have a team of people reporting to me, and it was interesting as well because I was given this team and within three months found out one of the key leads was becoming inebriated on the job.
Another was taking afternoons with a bank credit card and going to a hotel on a daily basis, on a weekly basis. So I had challenges that were given to me. But my approach has always been just to be honest, to be as transparent as I can and to be understanding, to listen but also recognize and communicate their expectations.
+++++++++++++++++++
[00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: Successful people are asked all the time, what makes you so successful? I'd like to frame it this way. What's a factor that's helped you succeed that most people on the outside probably wouldn't recognize or realize?
[00:16:19] Lisa Cummins: I'm not sure if it would be recognized or not. But I think early on and particularly when I moved to Washington DC after the banking career a pastor said, Lisa,
make sure that you know that this is what you're supposed to do, that you feel this is what you're supposed to do, because that's what's going to sustain you through the challenges.
And I think that has been the case for me, Tom. I know I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And so, it's a calling, right? It's a calling. And I think in banking I entered it because I needed a job. But I think it wasn't too long after a couple years where I realized this is where I'm supposed to be.
And recognizing that it was part of an orchestrated plan that the Lord had for me that I could not have ever orchestrated. But things came into place, not by coincidence, but by God's hand.
[00:17:15] Tommy Thomas: Going back to that first team, it sounds like you might have had to do some hiring and firing on that inherited team.
When you think about hiring today, what's the most important quality you're looking for?
[00:17:26] Lisa Cummins: I've evolved in this and maybe to where everybody else is, but I think character is a big piece of everything. Character's going to tell me about the experiences, the skills you say you have are accurate or not. True character's going to tell me how much responsibility I can give to someone.
The challenge is character's hard to measure on the application, right? And what we try to do is really make sure that when we're hiring, not make sure, but we try to emphasize hiring among communities that we already know and that already know what we're about. Doesn't always work well, but there's a higher probability that someone's going to be able to fulfill what we're needing, and at the same time fulfill what they're calling and purpose is.
We have had to terminate folks. And that's never easy. But what we try to do is be very clear about expectations. We try to give folks an opportunity to remedy whatever is the shortfall. Obviously, that's an issue. Depends on the severity of the situation or the factors that are impacted by underperformance or non-performance or misjudgment, whatever it might be.
But we do try to give folks an opportunity to remedy the situation. And we try to provide them with the tools that allow that, in some cases that what works and also let me add, find another position. Particularly if they're a person that is a great character, but just doesn't have the skillset.
Is there another way we can work with this individual? So, we try every option we can to allow an individual to flourish and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But that's the hard part and that's the cost of being in.
[00:19:19] Tommy Thomas: Who's been the most influential mentor in your life?
[00:19:24] Lisa Cummins: I didn't come from a culture that had one individual or specific individuals that had a designation of mentor. That was not something I understood. But I would say that in different phases of my life, I've had different folks who have influenced me. Obviously, I have my grandparents and my parents who were models of service.
When I went to the church that I grew up with, there was, we call them the sisters of the church, who were there faithfully when we needed to do fundraising to send youth to camp. They were making tamales on Friday night, and were bringing their big pots to be able to sell those as a fundraiser.
We had men of the church who were hardworking and after their regular day of construction, they'd come and work on the building of the church. Also had the Sunday school teacher who was faithful. I still remember her name, Virginia Faithful, showed up every Sunday morning and cared about us.
So that was that phase. I think as I've grown into professional life and ministry and leading an organization; I think there are various people who have had influence in my life. Some of them I know and they're good friends, and some of them I've read about, right? And so, I don't think there's any one source, but I've benefited from multiple sources of folks that I can learn from.
[00:20:46] Tommy Thomas: It sounds like you've had both the formal and informal - probably more informal mentoring than classical.
[00:20:51] Lisa Cummins: Yeah. That's right. Again, that wasn't part of my culture, but I remember about 10 years ago, a young woman called me and said, I'd like for you to be my mentor, and I really didn't know her.
And I was like, okay. I'm not sure what that looks like. And she said, can we meet next week? Can we meet next month? And kept it on. And I'm like, oh, okay. I wasn't as forward to be able to do that. And I didn't know what that looked like. Yeah. So, it was very much informal.
[00:21:21] Tommy Thomas: I want you to think about some of the teams you've led. What's been the key to successful team leadership?
[00:21:30] Lisa Cummins: At least for me I work really hard to make sure every voice is heard for several reasons. One, I want folks to be able to take ownership of whatever it is that we're working on.
I don't want to be the one leader. I think that I am probably too trusting. I know I'm too trusting in some places that has bitten me. But I really try to work at a personal level, building trust, building relationships, having people reminding ourselves that we're on the same team and reminding ourselves of what our common goals are.
I try to have fun in the process of that and really celebrate the wins and want to talk about the places where we didn't win, where we didn't achieve what we wanted to. And we’ve had some folks say let's not talk about the past. No, we've got to talk about the past, because that's how we learn.
And so, I think it's a combination of factors. Things aren't always perfect. There are mistakes that are made by me and others, but there's room for that. And let's be honest and sincere with one another and reevaluate. Do we want to stay on this team and are we still committed to the same purpose? And if we are, then we can work things out.
[00:22:43] Tommy Thomas: You and I come from probably two generations. I finished high school in 68. You finished it sounded like 82, 83. 83. And now you're leading people or bringing people into the workforce that have finished a generation later than you.
What are some observations maybe if you think of your parents' generation, your generation, and the people you're seeing now? Can you draw some contrast there?
[00:23:08] Lisa Cummins: Sure. I think one of the biggest ones that we've been thinking about over the last 24 months is this idea of boundaries.
I grew up in a culture where there were no boundaries in terms of work life, that sort of thing. Partly because we were in poverty, so you've got to do whatever you have to do to make ends meet, right?
And many people are still in that situation. However, I would say that as folks have a more of a mixture of cultures, the young folks that we've been hiring, they are very intentional about drawing boundaries so that their work doesn't end up being seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
We work with a lot of faith-based organizations and we've had many talks with our pastors and some of whom have said, yeah. And some had it as a badge of nobility that they haven't taken a vacation in 20 years. We said that's not actually a good thing.
And so, we're learning, my generation, we're learning from the younger generation about what it means to have more balance, what mental health means. That just has not been part of our vocabulary. So I'm thankful for that because I think that is important for sustainability and the important things to practice, important things to teach and learn as well.
So I think that's the biggest piece. And the other is that, particularly because a lot of our work requires either understanding of the Hispanic culture, and or speaking Spanish. We've just got some amazing people who are the younger generation who are very interested in issues of helping their neighbor and really, I think not leaving parts of scripture out.
Again, we're not faith-based authorization, but we work with ministries and our people have a desire to do that. So we really are, the younger generation is holding us accountable to what we say we believe biblically and are smart about trying to develop long-term solutions. And I think again, holding a line from a perspective of what is for us as individuals and for the communities that we're serving. So, there's a lot to learn there, for sure.
[00:25:39] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. So go back to the team thing for a minute. What's the most ambitious project you've ever tackled and how did you bring the troops to rally?
[00:25:48] Lisa Cummins: Wow. One of the things that we do a lot, we've done a lot of ambitious projects, Tommy, and I think that by God's grace we've been able to see some, see fruit in some cases, it's not all the fruit we'd want to see but I think we also have very high expectations of ourselves.
We launched a program in 2014 that was trying to respond to the unaccompanied children who were coming to our border, desperate for help - in desperate need. And we ended up in three months standing up four or five shelters that provided housing for these children, 24/7 care, and hired 200 people in that period of time.
And that was in 2014. We were continuing that work and have grown to other projects since. But I think that when you know you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, and that, for me, I know that this is more than just about me. I can have confidence that God's got my back.
Yep. God's got my back. Again, I'm sorry. I'm not sure how faith oriented your audience is, but this is hard. It's hard for me not to include faith in my story.
[00:27:14] Tommy Thomas: No, sure. I think a lot of my people, given that's where I've made my living over the past 35 years, I think we do have a probably a primary faith-based group. Okay. But probably not entirely. So you be yourself.
[00:27:28] Lisa Cummins: Thank you. Yeah. And in our work, we try to demonstrate our faith by our actions. And so, I have a project that we're working on now that's going to be a big lift.
And I don't often step back and say, oh, out of fear this one has caused me a little trepidation. So I'm having to wrestle with that and figure out what that's about and what's a smart way to go into this. But most of our work, Tommy we're first to do it, and so there's not a lot of, given our circumstances, given the communities we're working with, there's not a lot of track records.
We're not duplicating what somebody else is doing. We might be taking parts of what others are doing and replicating that to fit in the context of what we're working in, and the resources that we have or don't have. But yeah, we've done a lot of ambitious things.
When I started Urban Strategies, I did not have a goal of growing. I was just trying to do what God called me to do. But I realized that to be a steward, a good steward of what the Lord has, the opportunities the Lord was giving me, we needed to bring other people on the team. So today we have 500 people on the Urban Strategies team.
And that's not something I ever planned on. I would probably have been frightened about it had you told me that would be the case – because big is not necessarily better. So that's not what I'm going for.
+++++++++++++++++++++=
Join us next week when we continue this conversation with Lisa. In that conversation, we will dig deeper into her work with Urban Strategies. We'll also discuss what she has learned about nonprofit board service by serving on the boards of organizations, such as World Vision, and the Christian community.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Urban Strategies
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Lisa Trevino Cummin's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Christin McClave: The boards that I've been on that have been very well-functioning from a nonprofit standpoint, really do have a nice balance of people who are still in industry. People who are very well versed in audit and finance and can pick out what might not look right on the financials or where things are, could potentially go wrong in the future if they're not managed properly.
[00:00:27] Tommy Thomas: This week we're continuing the conversation with Christin McClave that we began in Episode 81. In that conversation, Christin shared her leadership journey from Johnson and Johnson to Cardona Industries, an aftermarket business and the automotive sector that her father and grandfather started. Christen has a lot of board governance experience in both the private and nonprofit sectors. Let's pick up on that conversation.
+++++++++++++++++++
Let's go to board service. You are a busy lady, with a family and a business. When did your first nonprofit board show up? Or maybe, how did it show up?
[00:01:08] Christin McClave: My first nonprofit board experience actually came from an organization I was a part of in my high school years. I was a part of a teen missions organization. I went on a couple missions trips with this organization and then, eventually, I stayed in loose communication with them.
And then it was, a friend of a friend. And they really wanted to find someone who had actually participated in some of their programs. And it's just, it's really a word-of-mouth thing at that point, and that was a much smaller nonprofit. And it was a really wonderful organization.
I learned a ton and I was able to actually have a few mentors on that board helping me through the process and learning about governance and what needs to be in place, maybe what wasn't in place there. And how to see things in, as a non-profit board member.
That was a really awesome learning experience for me. And then subsequently, one of my mentors on that board eventually left, and then he asked me to put my name in the process for the next nonprofit board, which was much larger at that point. And I ended up joining that board. So, it’s a cycle and a follow on.
If you're doing good things and bringing good value to the board you're on and providing feedback and good support and connections, it’ll pay off to the next one and the next one.
[00:02:48] Tommy Thomas: Peter Drucker has been attributed to have said a lot of things. I'm not sure if we could have talked to Dr. Drucker about what all he did say, but one person said that Dr. Drucker said there's one thing all boards have in common. They do not function. Based on your experience what might make that truth, if it's true?
[00:03:05] Christin McClave: I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, these systems that we try to put in place and we expect perfection from them.
We're all imperfect people coming to the table. And we're all human and those structures are very rigid and there's a lot of, I'll say literature, books, there's magazines, everything out there. I was just reading the Director and Boards magazine. There's all of these best practices that we're supposed to have in place.
And the reality is there's cultural things that happen. There's crises that come into play. There are unforeseen circumstances, if you're working with a global nonprofit board, you have all kinds of economic and cultural factors that you have no control over.
And you have these great board agendas and these wonderful committees and you're just constantly trying to make it easy. And at the end of the day there's always something. We live in an imperfect world and we're all imperfect people. And the human dynamics of coming together with a lot and especially now we're also wanting more diversity of, thought and diversity of, race and gender and background coming to the table together.
It's going to get even more and more complicated because we're having to come from different perspectives. The discourse has to be more robust about challenging what the agenda is or what's on the table, or what things are important. And then, layer on top of that, you have a management team, right?
And you've got these two disparate systems coming together in a collision, at a board meeting, right? And as much as you'd like to think we're partners with the management team and at the same time, that's not always your role. Your role is also to be an oversight to what's happening in the organization.
And there is some tension between, if there's tension on the management team, how do they function together? It's great to have a highly functioning, highly performing executive team, but we all know that doesn't always happen and they're coming into the room and then you have this board who have varying degrees of, you're always rolling people on and off a board.
So, it's big. A wonderful and a challenging collision of personalities. And then we have this, like I said, this system and this equation of what, the best practices of boards should and, shouldn't be. I think I agree with Peter Drucker there and that, it'll never be perfect and we'll always have our dysfunction.
But we can all come to the table with some type of growth mindset and openness and humility. Then I think we can get a lot of things done.
[00:06:03] Tommy Thomas: I've been in this business a long time and I've worked with probably 300-400 boards, over the last 30 years. And if I look at them, I will say a lot of the time they're, they'd be males a lot of the time. They might be closer to my age than your age.
And now things are changing. So, what are you seeing, or maybe what are you doing to lower the mean age on a board and to maybe bring more gender and ethnic diversity?
[00:06:32] Christin McClave:
So, I think we see a lot of changes in the general demographics, right? As our society and culture are changing. The positive thing is there's so much more diversity coming up through the leadership ranks.
And I think, the traditional way that we've, I'll say we, because I've done it myself as well, when we've needed a new board member on a board I'm on, I instantly think about who have I worked with before? Who's like me, who thinks like me, who would be easy to plug and play into this board that I'm on? And so that's been our traditional way of pipelining onto boards. Let's find people who we know and who we know could be very quickly successful and contribute value to this board.
I think what we've learned over the last couple years is that it doesn't necessarily bring diversity to these boards that we are trying to diversify. And we've seen the pressure coming from the public sector the SEC, not quite regulations, but suggestions that we need more, a certain percentage of diversity on the public boards.
And there's a lot of pressure in the market for that. And then that has trickled down its way to nonprofits and to the private sector. So, everyone is looking to diversify their boards at this point. And I think, a key piece of the job requirements that we have in the past always assumed on larger boards, I'll say.
And most boards in general, everybody's wanted, okay you need to have a CEO or CFO or a C level executive. But preferably a CEO or CFO who's been in the chair before. And I've had people say that to me as well, that's what they're looking for. And I think we know just from sheer data that a lot of women and diverse candidates in general haven't had those opportunities.
And in the past, and we are trying, we are definitely developing that pipeline now and being very much more intentional. But I think like through the past few years and now looking at the talent market being as hot as it is and the demand for diverse talent we have, we are at the place we need to take a look at those very narrow criteria that we've, we've said, oh, you have to be a C-level executive to be on a board and to be able to contribute value. And I think, now I've seen a lot more being written, a lot more being talked about a lot more, diversity coming onto boards where I'm reading someone's background and I'm like, wow, that is so cool.
Maybe 10 years ago that person wouldn't have been chosen for that very significant board seat. So I think it's really just that we've opened up our criteria and have opened up our thought process and how we see people's experiences. We're looking at people's resumes really differently these days.
We even, from an HR perspective internally, when we're screening candidates. We took the requirement of having a college degree off of our requirements, probably, about 10 years ago, which was a little bit ahead of our time, but it just opened up our talent pool and we realized there's a lot of people out there that may not have a bachelor's degree but are way more experienced with their life and work experience that we were not being able to tap into because we had that very strict requirement.
So I think we're seeing that across the board at all levels, including at the board level.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:10:23] Tommy Thomas: A few episodes back a guy emailed me after the episode and he talked about that he was on a startup nonprofit, and he had some questions. He said, maybe you could do a whole episode on startup nonprofits. And I hadn't done that yet, but I have asked people like you the question.
If you were approached by a friend about doing a startup on a nonprofit, what are some questions you would ask? What kind of counsel are you giving that person? And this may go over to the board piece too, because I think boards are so critical.
[00:10:56] Christin McClave: Yeah. That is one of the key questions I would be asking. And maybe it's, at a startup stage, it's not a super formal board. That word board we’ll put in air quotes because, it's you're not paying anybody. You're not, and in a nonprofit, you're not paying anybody to be on the board anyway.
And you really need maybe more, something more like a sounding board and an advisory, an informal advisory council, if you will, that is able to bring some experience, some strategy, help you see what's down the road. The challenges, help you figure out, really the funding model and you know how you're going to approach that because that is your primary driver in any type of startup nonprofit. You really have to have the ability to raise money in a different sort of a way. It's not the traditional, you get a pitch deck with the in and you go into a Shark Tank environment and you present to all kinds of funding sources.
This is a whole different thing because you have this passion, this problem you want to solve, and you're trying to engage people in that mission with you. And then hopefully they're going to commit some donations and fundraising into that process. So I think having that advisory function in some way is really important.
And in more established nonprofits, they're meeting quarterly, but I think in this case you'd probably want to have someone on speed dial for different things, who's your mentor, your coach, and then having some type of advisory, council or loose board that you meet, like probably monthly to help you stay on track, build out your strategy, and support you, even from a, like I said, mentorship and coaching standpoint.
[00:12:56] Tommy Thomas: You're probably not old enough to remember the Enron scandal, but I certainly would be and certainly the private sector took a lot of heat and justifiably how do you get your fellow board members to ask tough financial questions?
[00:13:07] Christin McClave: Yeah. That is a challenge. In the nonprofit space, it's more of a challenge on those boards because people do come to those boards because of the mission, because of the passion they have for the mission. And if you're on certain boards that you know are, have a Christian focus or some type of religious focus, you want to have some percentage of the board coming from either ministry, and then the other part of the board is coming from the business perspective.
That seems to be a really nice balance actually. I've enjoyed being on nonprofit boards who have a good balance of those two things. Everybody needs to be passionate about the mission, but then on the for-profit board side, you tend to get people who are heavily weighted to the financial side.
You spend a lot of time with your audit committee chair. You spend time with the auditors, you're spending a higher percentage of time on the financials and the strategy and the metrics and much less time on the culture and the people strategy and which, we can talk another time, about how that's probably, an imbalance and needs to be more balanced on the for-profit side.
I think it's really key to have the right balance of people coming from the for-profit sector and also people with good finance background who know how to dig into the numbers and know how to highlight things that could be potential issues going down the road.
And the boards that I've been on that have been very well-functioning from a nonprofit standpoint, really do have a nice balance of people who are still in industry. People who are very well versed in audit and finance and can pick out what might not look right on the financials or where things are, could potentially go wrong in the future if they're not managed properly.
The for-profit sector doesn't really have, as I haven't experienced that. They tend to have a much deeper focus on the financials and really, that diversity that we talked about earlier is also important, to make sure you don't have a bunch of, a bunch of the same type of people on your board who are not willing to bring up the financial issues that they see and they're willing to speak up and challenge.
You want to make sure that diversity of thought is there and the ability to bring things up and not just go into group think on how things are moving.
[00:15:59] Tommy Thomas: I’d like you to respond to this quote: “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant - someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does”.
[00:16:10] Christin McClave: Yes. Wow. A pleasant irritant. I really like that a lot. And I will aspire to that title because I think sometimes with my age, and I'll say I'm 46, but on a lot of the boards that I'm on, I tend to be on the younger side. It's something that I can fall into, okay, I'm here and I don't have as much to bring to the table that everybody else does, but I really do need to speak up and be that pleasant irritant on the board and ask the questions.
They asked me to be on the board because I'm coming from a different perspective. So, I think it's really important. We actually had a role on one of our nonprofit boards. And this came to be after we had experienced a crisis together as a board and got through it and we realized we had gone into that group to the point where we let something occur and we didn't challenge it.
We didn't challenge the management team like we should have as a board. So, after that crisis subsided, we came together and said,
Hey, we need a loyal skeptic.
Every single board meeting we have, someone who is going to be given the hat of loyal skeptic and, which sounds like, similar words, you said pleasant irritant.
So yeah, and that really was an interesting experience. When I had to take on that role you really put that hat on, and it changes your thinking. And we had moments in the board agenda where we would say, okay what does the skeptic have to say about this? And we wanted to make sure we were getting the alternative position to what we were all agreeing to.
[00:18:03] Tommy Thomas: I asked Dr. Linda Livingstone, the President at Baylor that question, and I asked her, did you need to appoint one? And she says, probably not. They generally show up.
[00:18:13] Christin McClave: Yeah. I think if you start calling attention to the fact that we want and we celebrate and we need to have some skeptics and some different points of view, we celebrate that.
I don't think you necessarily have to put the hat on someone. You just have to keep on a regular basis saying, are we getting, what's the alternative point of view here? What's the skeptic going to say? And I think we can all do that in our board context.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:18:42] Tommy Thomas: Let's close out with maybe a couple of comments about the board chair because that's a critical role in nonprofits.
So give me some words and phrases that would describe the best board chair or chairs that you've observed in nonprofits.
[00:18:57] Christin McClave: So, composed, I'm thinking of all the board chairs that I've been a part of, I've been a part of composed, professional, empathetic, and humble yet still very organized.
And they're the ones that keep us going and keep us on track. And at the same time, they're very savvy with understanding the dynamics of the management team, the CEO, the relationship with the CEO and the relationship to the board. And they are really integral to that working well.
They spend time with the CEO offline. They potentially spend time with the leadership team and the CEO. It's an incredibly dedicated role that the chairs that I've been blessed to be under as a board member have been just remarkable in their ability to balance all the stakeholders.
The stakeholders in the room balance all of those very complicated systems that we talked about earlier. Bringing them all into one room and being even, you could say it, a conductor of an orchestra in a way. I've seen them and at the same time, the chairs of nonprofits, like I said, really must be committed, passionate about the work that's being done in that nonprofit.
I have experienced one board where the chair was really doing it out of, I don't want to say obligation, but it was like, okay I'm trying to help this organization. I'm trying to help this CEO. But maybe that person's personal commitment wasn't really so passionate about the actual work that we were doing and that's needed at some points like that, we needed some structure and some discipline on that board.
So that was a good thing for a short time or an interim time. But the ones that I've seen to be very effective have been passionate about the work, really passionate about supporting the CEO and the management team, and giving them the support from the board they need. And then at the same time, like I said, bringing that skeptic voice and making sure that voice is heard in the meetings is really important.
So there's a level of humility and then a level of organization and professionalism that has just been really important to see, especially when you have large nonprofit boards. These boards tend to get over 15 people and they get to 20-25, and that's a whole other level of orchestration that a chair has to have to be involved in. And it's a definite skill. It's really amazing when you see it working.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Our guest next week will be Lisa Trevino Cummings. Lisa started her career with Bank of America and spent 12 years there before leaving to head Hispanic outreach efforts for The White House Office of Faith-based and Community Initiatives. In 2003, she started Urban Strategies – a social enterprise with a mission to connect and resource community and faith-based organizations in hard-to-reach communities.
[00:22:26] Lisa Cummings: I grew up in a culture where there were no boundaries in terms of work life, that sort of thing. Partly because we were in poverty, so you've got to do whatever you got to do to make ends meet, right? And many people are still in that situation. However, I would say that as folks have a more of a mixture of cultures, the young folks that we've been hiring, they are very intentional about drawing boundaries so that their work doesn't end up being, seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Christin McClave's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Jerry White: The best lesson that I have learned is that I need to accept responsibility for what I do, to admit when I need help and to be absolutely of high integrity and faithfulness in carrying out what I say I will do. The second thing that I would say was that people are my most important asset.
+++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Jerry White, The President Emeritus for The Navigators International. Jerry enjoyed a distinguished career in the United States Air Force, starting out in mission control during the very early days of the American space program. He retired from the Air Force as a two-star general.
I must confess that I was a bit nervous about interviewing Jerry. Aside from his distinguished military career, he's an accomplished writer and is very prominent in Christian ministry circles. I even went so far as to ask Doug Nuenke, a previous podcast guest and close friend of Jerry's to be my co-host for the episode.
But on the day of the recording, Doug had a family emergency and had to bow out. In the end, it turned out to be a wonderful experience for me. Jerry was a great guest, very genuine and transparent. Let's pick up the conversation.
[00:01:24] Tommy Thomas: Before we get too deep into your professional career, take me back a little bit to your upbringing and your childhood. What was that like?
[00:01:31] Jerry White: Let me just summarize that for you. And I'm headed back there within the next day or two because a cousin just died and I'll be performing a memorial service.
I grew up in a little town in Iowa by the name of Garden City, 100 people, a farm community north of Ames, just off I-35. My mother had me when she was 17, my father divorced her, abandoned us when I was an infant. So I was raised in that little Norwegian farm community by my mother and my grandfather, and had a wonderful upbringing.
I still go back there, and I know all the families and they know us. And then that, of course was a disaster for my mother. What was a disaster for me is at age eight, my mother remarried, and we got in the car with a new stepfather whom I did not really know at all, and headed west for Spokane, Washington, leaving behind everything that I knew and loved and cared for.
And I was one upset and anxious kid. And I should say that my stepfather was a wonderful person. I have absolutely zero negative to say about him. He was stuck with us as a new father with a spoiled young eight-year-old. We got to Spokane, Washington, and it was in that context that a group of businessmen in post-World War for our country and the USA veterans were coming back and we had a community center there, and we were in a neighborhood where there was no church.
And he and a group of business guys, ordinary men, started a Sunday school. And I started going to that and really started thinking through and being confronted with who Jesus was and the gospel. And so, at about age 11, I made a personal commitment to Christ. And this man, Bob Sheffler, was my mentor for his entire life.
He guided me through those early years. My parents did not know the Lord and they later came to faith, and he didn't know that he was discipling, but he was discipling me. And when I went off after high school, by the way, having been very involved in Youth for Christ and my church and many other things, off to study electrical engineering, it was Bob that drove me across the state of Washington to Seattle at the University of Washington, told me where to live, and dropped me off.
And it was there that I met The Navigators. My first roommate had been led to Christ by The Navigators and he started to disciple me, teach me how to have a quiet time, scripture, memory, and study the Bible. And so that was my early childhood. And it was traumatic. It was not easy. And but God stepped in and really changed my life, and I made Lordship commitments and ended up at a university in touch with The Navigators. Though, The Navigators weren’t really very big then.
[00:04:47] Tommy Thomas: So how did you choose electrical engineering?
[00:04:50] Jerry White: I was pretty good at math and none of my family really had gone to university and so I just fell into it. I said that's one of the more difficult subjects and I'm pretty good in mathematics.
So, when I signed up, I signed up for electrical engineering. I didn't know hardly anything about it, to be honest with you. And so that's how I ended up there. And I struggled through, I made it, I didn't know whether I was smart or whether I wasn't, and stayed with electrical engineering and ended up getting a bachelor's degree in it.
[00:05:27] Tommy Thomas: I was the same way. I studied EE and it was a hard road for me. It was a hard way to go to college.
[00:05:32] Jerry White: Yeah, it was. We had a whole bunch of navy veterans who were electronic technicians and all the labs I would go into, I didn't know what end was up, and they just did it just like this.
They knew everything and I was just struggling to figure out what end was up. And I worked my way through college. I did not have any scholarships of any sort. And so, it was a hard time, but it was also a time of tremendous growth spiritually. And it was there that I met Mary and we were married before our senior year in college, and she went to work for Boeing Aircraft Company, dropped out of school and I doubled up to 21, 22 and 23 hours and just forced my way through that last year of school. And on the day I graduated, I was commissioned in the Air Force and we jumped in the car and headed into the United States Air Force.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:06:31] Tommy Thomas: So, when you went into the Air Force, were you thinking it would be a career at that point?
[00:06:36] Jerry White: No, everybody had to serve in the universal draft. I went through the Air Force, ROTC, and went into pilot training. And I was just going to serve. I had no idea, Tommy, whether I'd be a career or not because Boeing Aircraft Company had a job waiting for me.
And so, I figured I'd serve whatever time I need to serve and probably end up coming back to Seattle. But it didn't go the way I planned. I flew for a year and was just near the end of pilot training. And though I didn't know it, they needed to get rid of about a third of the pilot training class.
And never having failed at any flights or anything, I had one not too good of a ride in formation jet and went up and took the next ride and the instructor landed and he said, Well White, you can fly two ship jet formation. Okay, but I don't think you're gonna be able to fly four ship formation, and within three days I was out of pilot training.
Done. No recourse. So, we said, what in the world is going on? I'd never failed at anything.
And so, we prayed and said just told the Air Force, send us anywhere you want. Just give me an engineering job somewhere. And with absolutely no hint from me or any input from anybody that I know, the Air Force sent me to Cape Canaveral in the New American Space Program.
Tommy, I didn't even know who it was . And I became a mission controller, got right smack in the middle of all of the new stuff that the Air Force was doing. The man flights, the Mercurys, the Geminis, Atlas, Titan, Polaris, you name it. And every conceivable kind of rocket. And in that I got a new glimpse of the future.
[00:08:35] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about your first management job?
[00:08:39] Jerry White: The first management job was in the Air Force. I was one of six mission controllers, and we had to manage all the assets on the Atlantic missile range for all of the contractors and projects that were going on at the time.
And the first thing I remember is how do you please everybody when you can't give everybody what they want? And so, I would put together each week a plan for the entire missile range, for all the tests, all the launches, all the ground tests, and then walk into a session of 50 contractors at each other's throats and mine for vying for time on the range.
And it really taught me how to navigate some hard waters. And it taught me that I needed to know what I was doing. And so it was a good time. It wasn't classically a management job because I wasn't in charge of anybody, but I was in charge of assets and had to work with people over whom I had no authority. And that was probably the best thing for me.
[00:09:53] Tommy Thomas: I was going to say you may not have had the authority, but you had to have the influence.
[00:09:58] Jerry White: I did have authority in the sense that I could say no to anything when I worked as a mission controller, if I had to make decisions related to the range and the tests and with people who were far outranked me.
Because when you're in the spot, you have the authority.
[00:10:17] Tommy Thomas: You're the third general officer that I've had the privilege to interview. One of them, Jack Briggs at the Springs Rescue Mission, of course. And I don't know that you'd ever have met Mark McQueen. He was a two-star in the army. He's a city manager at Panama City now. And he stepped into his job as city manager 10 days before Hurricane Michael hit Panama City.
[00:10:36] Jerry White: Oh my goodness.
[00:10:38] Tommy Thomas: That was a baptism by fire for him. I asked both of these guys the question,
What's the most important lesson you learned in the military that you've carried forward?
[00:10:48] Jerry White: The best lesson that I have learned is that I need to accept responsibility for what I do, to admit when I need help and to be absolutely of high integrity and faithfulness in carrying out what I say I will do. I'd say that was the key thing that I learned. The second thing that I would say was that people are my most important asset.
Nothing happens without people. I also learned that even though you're in an authoritarian environment in the military you don't misuse your authority. You don't lord it over anybody, but everybody. The colonels and generals who worked for me, I told them, I said, ladies and gentlemen, we're overhead.
We don't fix airplanes. We don't fly them. We don't create them. Our job is totally to clear the way so that the people really doing the work can actually do the work out in the field. I learned that by the school of hard knocks in terms of making a lot of mistakes and watching some pretty good people who were leaders.
[00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you a second chances question. I've got some good responses from this. Richard Paul Evans, a novelist, said, “Sometimes the greatest hope in our life is just a second chance to do what we should have done right the first time.” And I'm sure you've had the opportunity in the past to make that kind of decision.
What goes into your mind and heart when you're thinking about giving somebody and senior leadership a second chance for something fairly egregious?
[00:12:33] Jerry White: If you have something fairly egregious it depends on several things. One is moral, the second is legal, and the third is judgment.
In other words, they just made a mistake. The moral and the legal. You have to abide by the policies in place and you need to hold people accountable. And I've had that both in The Navigators as well as in the military, but when a person's performance is not up to par, then well, what I ask them, I said, okay, here is my highest value.
My highest value is if you tell me you're going to do something, then I expect you to do it. And if you can't do it, I want you to tell me. And if you need help, please ask. But please do not tell me that you're going to do something and then not do it.
So, I hold them accountable and then if they, nobody is perfect. I've had people who didn't do all that I wanted them to do, and I have to discern whether it's an issue of competence, character, or some other thing that they just did not know what to do. But the basic thing is not to wait until they fail. In other words, to walk with your subordinates, if you want to call it that, as they're going through the process.
So both of you can catch it if it isn't going the right direction. And in that regard, particularly in The Navigators, which is a volunteer organization, you really want to give people a challenge. But I still remember so many challenges I had that I did not have a clue what to do and had to get lots of help.
And I made lots of mistakes and people were very tolerant of me. Didn't make any egregious mistakes, but ones that were enough to know that I wasn't performing as well as I could have.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:14:40] Tommy Thomas: Let me go to maybe a deeper side of that, and let's think about dangerous behaviors that you've seen that derail leader’s careers.
The biggest thing that derails leaders' careers is not understanding themselves and their own gifts and limitations. But the worst is when they have a moral failure. And I don't necessarily mean sexually moral, a moral failure in terms of integrity and judgment.
[00:14:47] Jerry White: The biggest thing that derails leaders' careers is not understanding themselves and their own gifts and limitations. But the worst is when they have a moral failure. And I don't necessarily mean sexually moral, a moral failure in terms of integrity and judgment. The thing I look for in a leader is that they're a learner.
That they know what they know. They know what they don't know, and they're always on the grow. That is, they are learning to develop themselves and they don't make excuses. When they don't do quite well, they take the responsibility rather than trying to cover up for themselves.
Anybody who will admit that they did something wrong and said, I need to learn how to do that better, I've got a lot of hope for that person because then they'll grow, they'll continue to engage. People gave me second chances. People took a risk with me on many things.
And put their own careers on the line instead of just saying, oh it's too much of a risk. And I've had several things where that's happened. I remember one situation, I was going over into a war zone in a critical area of Croatia, and there were some questions at the Pentagon as to why I was doing this. And I had a reason. And the latter says, if Jerry says it's important, we'll back him and let me go. Because they trusted me.
[00:16:23] Tommy Thomas: Let’s change over to mentors for a minute. You mentioned the guy early in your life that gave you the road to the University of Washington and helps you out there. Who else has been an influential mentor to you?
[00:16:32] Jerry White: There were several people. This was a businessman, Bob Sheffler, who was my early mentor. Then in the Air Force when I failed out of pilot training, there was an instructor pilot by the name of Bill Waldrip. He became very significant in leadership in the Officers Christian Fellowship.
And Bill and Doris really were our friends, and he was a mentor who was always there. We worked together through the years, both with The Navs and with Officers Christian Fellowship (OCF) and I would ask him for council when I was going to leave the Air Force and come full-time with The Navigators. Bill is one of the men that I called and asked for counsel.
I had a pastor back in Dayton, Ohio, who was a wonderful man, and he really believed in us. Here we were just young. Officers, little kids. And he believed in us and he encouraged us. And then later on Loren Sanny, the former president of the Navigators and Leroy Eims, one of our key early leaders in The Navigators, all were wonderful mentors to me.
And whether it was intentional mentoring, I don't know, but what they did is they gave me opportunities and they gave me counsel and they interacted with me. And I would listen to them very carefully as to their teaching and learn from them. Each of these people were very different.
I don't know if any of them thought, oh, I'm mentoring Jerry. They were just giving their life to me at a point in time in my life when I needed them.
[00:18:13] Tommy Thomas: Do you think the most mentoring that you've done, has it been intentional, or do you think you just showed up?
[00:18:19] Jerry White: Tommy, in these last years has been more intentional because through the Lausanne Movement and through other places people have asked me to mentor them and I make a difference between discipling. Of course, when you're doing like we do in The Navigators, it’s one-on-one discipling, not exactly mentoring.
That's helping people with spiritual growth, getting the going in their lives. Then we have what I call coaching. And coaching is where somebody really wants you to help. Send in the place, give guidance as they do it. But mentoring for me, working on their agenda and with a few people I'm mentoring right now I say, what do you want to learn?
Where can I help you? What kinds of issues do you have? I have one man in Hawaii who calls me every three months and has a list of things he wants to talk about. And I go by his agenda, not by mind. Now, if I've got a young leader and perhaps someone who works for me, I'll be a bit more structured in terms of what I'll ask them to do and to coach them, to give them experiences, guided experiences and opportunities.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:19:37] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back over maybe the Air Force and or The Navigators, what's the most ambitious project you've ever tackled and how did you bring your team along?
[00:19:45] Jerry White: There were a lot of ambitious projects. Probably the most challenging was taking the responsibility for being president of The Navigators from Loren Sanny, who had been in the role for 30 years following Dawson Trotman.
And the biggest project that we took on is who are The Navigators? What are we supposed to do and how should we do it? We needed to reassess the entire direction of The Navigators as we were growing by leaps and bounds internationally and in the US, and I still remember with my team trying to come up with things that we needed to do to bring these people together.
And two of the attempts were wonderful attempts, but they didn't work. They were good. But they didn't work. And finally, as a team, we decided to bring the core leadership of The Navigators worldwide together in Cypress. And I'd say, okay, we've got a blank sheet of paper. Who are The Navigators? What has God called us to do and how should we do it?
And God brought us through that time with an affirmation of what we call the core, our calling core vision, core values and vision. And we just did a review of that a few months ago. After 20 years. I expected it to last for 10 years, and it's lasted 20 now. It was not just me. What I did, I gave permission for the leaders to speak.
Their heart. And I had a team that was a phenomenal team to help guide that along the way. That was probably the most ambitious thing I've ever undertaken.
[00:21:50] Tommy Thomas: If we learn from our mistakes, why are most others so afraid to make mistakes?
[00:21:55] Jerry White: Usually it's pride and ego that we don't admit when we make mistakes. I think a big issue is that we don't understand our own limitations and who we are. And that's why I think that, as people grow in leadership, they need to assess who they are and what their needs are and what they can grow in.
The one thing that keeps people from taking risks is fear. They're afraid they will fail. And if there's an atmosphere within their company, their ministry, their organization of not tolerating mistakes and failure, then you'll walk in fear.
And if a leader has to have someone coming up to them every other day and asking, is this okay? Is this okay? What must I do? That's not going to work. They've got to be willing to take risks and I have to be willing as a leader to take risks on them and to give them the reins and say, go after it. You do this. Do what is best in your own eyes, and if you need some help, let's talk about it.
[00:23:12] Tommy Thomas: What are you most excited about in life right now?
[00:23:16] Jerry White: Oh, I am most excited right now about the whole concept of the theology of work. That God calls us to our jobs, to our work, to be an engineer, to be a crane operator, to be a computer programmer, to be a manager, and to understand that God's great calling is not just to quote what we call ministry, but our ministry is our work.
And the reason for that is that is where the lost people of this world are. They are the people that ordinary believers work alongside every day. And I'm very excited about that and I'm doing a lot of work with the Luanne movement and the theology of work and for our next Luanne Congress in September of next year to have upwards of 40% of the 5,000 coming out of the workplace.
And besides, Tommy, the future of missions is going to be people going in their professions because we can't get into most countries that we want to go to.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:24:34] Tommy Thomas: Let me get you to respond to a couple of quotes before I jump over into board service some, because I want to make sure we have some time there.
John Quincy Adams said, “Patience and persistence have a magical effect before which difficulties and obstacles vanish.” Any thoughts from your experience where you've seen patience and persistence work for you?
[00:24:55] Jerry White: They're two very different things. Patience is awaiting not seeing the results right away.
The biggest one is persistence. When I look back over my career, I didn't think I was all that smart, but I was persistent, and I worked hard. So even when some of the most boring jobs or some of the most distasteful things, you are persistent and work through it. I have a little series of things when I say, okay, this is a good employee, someone who's competent.
That as they know what to do and that they have character, obviously that's a huge one. But beyond that, they're faithful. And I will take faithfulness over the most competent person because I know that person will get the job done. The smartest guy or gal around, if they're not persistent and faithful, they will not get the job done.
Everything has a deadline. And now the patience part, I've not given quite as much thought to that. But if there's patience, it's patience with people. And not usurping what they're doing and overriding them. I had to learn that early on that I, even though I could do it better than some other people, certain things I needed to let them do it.
Just like your kids riding a tricycle or a bicycle, you have to let them fall. Maybe catch them when they fall, but patience in trusting them.
[00:26:43] Tommy Thomas: Somebody has compared leadership to a boat with two oars, one of the oars is people and relationships, the other is results. Your thoughts?
[00:26:53] Jerry White: Certainly, the people are a key issue.
I have to be a little careful about the results on that one. Certainly, everybody needs to have results. I would probably make the other, or goals and directions. In other words, to know where you're going. Because now do I want results? Yes, I do want results, but in so many cases we can't create the results, particularly in an organization like The Navigators or any of our Christian ministries.
You can't make anything happen. The only thing you can do, Tommy, is to make an environment where something can happen and then see God miraculously work through it. But even in the secular world there is limited control over results and you have to let people do their job. And certainly, we need to have clearly defined outcomes that are adjusted quarter by quarter.
+++++++++++++++++++++
[00:28:00] Tommy Thomas: Thanks to Jerry White for a great conversation. Jerry will rejoin us in a few weeks to share leadership lessons on board governance that he has learned over the years.
In Episode 81, Christin McClave was our guest. We discussed her leadership journey from Johnson and Johnson to Cardon Industries and beyond. In addition to Christin’s corporate leadership experience, she has a lot of experience serving on both private sector and nonprofit boards. Christen joins us next week to share insights on board governance.
[00:28:42] Christin McClave: The boards that I've been on that have been very well-functioning from a nonprofit standpoint, really do have a nice balance of people who are still in industry. People who are very well versed in audit and finance and can pick out what might not look right on the financials or where things are, could potentially go wrong in the future if they're not managed properly.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Jerry White is a very accomplished writer. Most of his books can be found at NavPress (www.navpress.com). Others at Thrift Books (thriftbooks.com). Three are listed below:
Honesty, Morality, and Conscience: Making Wise Choices in the Gray Areas of Life – by Jerry White
Friends and Friendship: The Secrets of Drawing Closer - by Jerry White
Dangers Men Face, 25th Anniversary Edition - by Jerry White
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Jerry White's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Caryn Ryan: At the end of the day, sometimes it's the simplest questions and sticking with the simplest, high-level questions that matters for solving problems and creating transformation. Because I remember one of the first questions I asked the traders was, “Where did the oil go that you thought you were trading?”
They didn't know where the oil had gone. And so, we spent a lot of time having to come back to that question and analyzing, digging through years of data and models that would go from trading models that went from the floor to the ceiling. But we always had to come back to that basic question, “Where did the oil go?”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Our guest this week is Caryn Ryan, the founder and managing member of Missionwell. Missionwell was formed out of the belief that nonprofit organizations should benefit from the same efficiency and expertise as the for-profit sector, despite the significant resource differences between the two sectors.
Caryn spent 20 years with Amoco Corporation and BP plc, and then later with the merged company BP / Amoco. She was recruited by World Vision International, where she served as their Chief Financial Officer. Caryn was an early champion for virtual and shared services models for the nonprofit sector. Let's pick up on my conversation.
[00:01:20] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional career, let's go back to your childhood. I'm always curious about how people got their start. What's your happiest memory of your childhood?
[00:01:30] Caryn Ryan: That's an interesting question. I'm not sure I have a single happiest memory, but certainly one of my happiest memories is a trip to downtown Detroit.
I lived just north of Detroit growing up, going shopping with my mom and my grandma and my sister and getting a new winter coat, and shopping at Sanders. Have you heard of Sanders?
[00:01:48] Tommy Thomas: No, we didn't have that in the south, I don't think.
[00:01:51] Caryn Ryan: They're a local chocolatier near Detroit, and sometimes even out here on the west coast, you can find chocolate from them. But we had a hot fudge sunday after we went shopping. So, it's a wonderful memory.
[00:02:03] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back on that, what was the greatest gift you got from your parents?
[00:02:07] Caryn Ryan: My perseverance. My parents themselves came from families that didn't have much and so they had come through a kind of late depression era and they knew the value of a penny and they knew that to get ahead, you had to really persevere. And they passed that on to their kids.
[00:02:26] Tommy Thomas: What are people who don't know you always surprised to learn about?
[00:02:30] Caryn Ryan: A lot of people meet me through my company Missionwell. And they assume that I'm an accountant, and that I like the details, but I don't and I'm not. And over time as time goes on, usually they see that I'm more of an analyzer of leaders and situations and work and, a really pragmatic solution finder, a really persistent person looking for solutions.
I'm an entrepreneur, although, who would have thought it? And I'm a reasonable strategist. And those who are extra observant will probably also be able to tell that my work is my Christian mission in life.
[00:03:07] Tommy Thomas: When you went to college how did you decide on your major?
[00:03:10] Caryn Ryan: Hey, I'm from Detroit. It's the Motor City. And growing up in a rather poor family, I wanted security. So, I thought right away I'm going into business in some capacity. I didn't have any idea what aspect of business, so I double majored in economics and psychology for my undergrad and for my MBA. I added finance and information technology and some organization development and organizational behavior.
So, it was all general business-oriented, but with a core of finance and HR-ish kinds of things. And that's pretty much been what I've stuck with throughout my entire career. It's always been something to do with business whether that's a non-profit business or a for-profit business, and something to do with that core of finance and HR, but then a whole bunch of things peripherally around that, that those can branch out into a whole lot of things.
[00:04:02] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back to the first time you had a staff to report to you, what do you remember about that?
[00:04:08] Caryn Ryan: That would've been in the Financial Analysis Department of Amoco production, that's part of the old, pre-BP, part of the oil and gas exploration production division.
There. And I have to say, I was a mediocre boss at best. I didn't see the role as servant leadership initially. I really saw it as leading a production team to goals. And in addition,
I had a boss at the time who was a great example of how not to treat people.
But as my time in that seat progressed I learned that every boss has to protect their people. They have to advocate for them, and they have to develop their staff. And these are the things that allow people to flourish. And to this day maybe just based on how tough that job was, one of my joys is mentoring young people and bringing them along.
And going back to that bad boss, as the years have gone by, I've thought about that bad boss from time to time. And I think that people who don't treat other people well, usually have one or two things going on in their life. Tommy one, they either have really low self-esteem and they must assuage that by criticizing and tearing down other people.
Or two, they're motivated by greed and power. Understanding that has helped me quickly diagnose, is this a person type A or is it a person type B when they're really behaving badly. And if it's an issue of self-esteem, there's a way you can work with people over time to just bring them up, help them feel better about themselves, and help them transform how they interact in the world. And I think that's part of our job too. So, he taught me a lot.
[00:05:44] Tommy Thomas: We can learn from sometimes less-than-ideal circumstances that's for sure. In September of 2002, you were living in London, you have a senior-level finance position with BP, probably very well compensated, I would imagine. What happened to cause you to leave the private sector and take that CFO job with World Vision International?
[00:06:04] Caryn Ryan: It was really lovely working in London. I thought you might ask that question. I had my family with me and I bought and remodeled an old home in Hamstead for the family, and we had an amazing life with fun schools for the kids and lots of travel and adventures.
But if I step back from that, go back about five years before I'd already started noticing in the late, mid to late 1990s before the merger of Amico and BP that something was missing in my life. And this feeling grew while I was in London. And until around the year 2000, I went to a choir practice at the American Church in London.
And I saw a poster and it was for an Alpha class and I was convicted. I needed to go and talk to my pastor about it. And he tried to persuade me not to, and I said, no, I need it. I need it. And I went to this Alpha class. It was 10 weeks long, and these questions about faith just poured out of me. And I was talking about Doubting Thomas in the Bible.
That was me. And I told God eventually that if he would speak to me plainly on two big life questions, I'd be his person forever. And he did, for better or for worse, he did. He spoke to me in the Holy Spirit that week of the Alpha class, and very clearly in very plain language, and advised me what I needed to do.
And I have been his person ever since. Although I'll never be the type of Christian who believes easily, and definitely I was a late comer to having a really true deep belief. But it's a commitment and it's a promise. And entrances, interestingly, I left Amoco with BP at that time without a job about two years later.
But shortly around that time when I took the Alpha class, BP very generously referred me to Nick Isbister, who you know.
And he is a consultant or coach who looks at motivated abilities. And during this time when I was wrestling with various issues including my career, I cannot tell you how much his SIMA profile meant to me.
As I was really trying to decide whether to stay or leave BP, where was I going next? And it was really part of God's gift to me. He was part of God's gift to me. And to see my gifts laid out so beautifully and my motivated abilities laid out so clearly really helped me move forward.
And it helped me take that step to give my notice to BP and really have the view of, God has a plan and I just want to see what adventures are out there next. And I've used his profile from time to time. I go back and read it and review it and just try to understand this is still me and, what do I need to pay attention to now? And it's been amazing.
[00:08:37] Tommy Thomas: So did World Vision come looking for you, or did you go looking for them?
[00:08:41] Caryn Ryan: After I left BP I made a matrix about 57 different things, and over the next few months I whittled away at those to try to figure out what I should do. And when I got it down to the top three, I was like I don't think being a CFO was the problem.
I like that. I don't think I was in the right place in a for-profit. I think I need a nonprofit or a Christian organization. And I had one-third criteria also, but around that time that I'd just gotten that narrowed down, I got a call from somebody else who you know, which is Rob Stevens.
And he said to me, are you interested in a CFO role with World Vision International? And I paused for a minute, and I said, is that a Christian organization that helps kids overseas? And he said yes. And I started thinking, isn't that amazing? This hits these top criteria that I've just spent months trying to get whittled down to.
And I said, yes, I'm interested. And it went from there. So, he shepherded that process. And I did end up working at World Vision for over three years.
[00:09:49] Tommy Thomas: Was that in London?
[00:09:52] Caryn Ryan: No, that was actually World Vision, out here in California. After I left BP, I moved back to the United States, to Chicago, and then that's when Rob connected with me, and then I ended up moving out here to California. I love it here. And I'm staying here. I've been here ever since.
[00:10:11] Tommy Thomas: So, years ago, probably, I guess probably about the time, that you were doing that transition. I was doing some work for World Vision in Seattle, and I had the privilege of recruiting a guy named Atu Tandon from Citibank.
And about six months after Atul started to work at World Vision he gave me a call. He is an Indian fellow, so he had that clipped British Indian accent. And he says, Tommy, If we had this many meetings at Citibank, we wouldn't have had a bank. And he just was overwhelmed by the number of meetings at World Vision.
My question to you is, what was the biggest surprise you had from leaving something like BP to going to the nonprofit world in World Vision in particular?
[00:10:58] Caryn Ryan: That Atul, he is so efficient. I can see where World Vision's style of just having so many meetings to build consensus would make him go crazy.
But for me, when I went there, I mentioned earlier that although I've been a Christian nominally since my baptism as a baby in the Catholic Church. And spent a lot of my entire life going to church in my twenties and thirties. I actually view my actual timing of becoming a truly committed Christian as the beginning of that Alpha class I talked about.
That's when I intentionally said to God, I'm yours. But it was so late, it was in my early forties before Christianity meant more than just going to church on a Sunday and sending my kids to Sunday school programs or singing in the choir or volunteering at all these to do all these financial and HR tasks.
So it was shortly after that commitment that I went to World Vision, and I have to say that I expected something different from the industrial sector that I had just spent 20 years working in. And it was a surprise to me that it was an organization of regular people with similar people issues to any for-profit I'd ever worked at.
And I just had to go back and think, okay, wait a minute. Okay. The 12 Apostles were, for the most part, just really regular guys. But they were just called to be where they were. It's not that they were people who were outstanding in any way. In fact, they were ordinary people.
And at World Vision, it was the same thing. It's just a strong sense of being people being called by God. But they're regular people and they have regular problems, and they're like all people. They're broken. And that was a surprise. I just felt like it was going to be something different, that I'd be working at some higher plane. But it was really a great lesson that people are people with all the usual awards and that Christians or we're all just in need of God's grace.
+++++++++++++++++
[00:12:55] Tommy Thomas: Looking back over 20 years in the private sector, what was the greatest experience or lesson you learned there that you were able to take forward?
Transformation emerges from tackling problems.
[00:13:02] Caryn Ryan: I think it would have to be that transformation emerges from tackling problems. When I was in London, working at BP after the merger of Amoco at BP, my business unit experienced a very tiny little loss. Maybe 100-150 million - in one month. And it was just big enough to get the attention of the CEO of BP you know Sir John or Lord John Brown.
And that was while I was serving as the CFO of BP's Global Oil Trading Operations. And I had to take responsibility for that loss. And for all of these financial calls that were actually outside of my direct reports, they were spread all the way across this huge global trading operation where oil and gas were just traded in and out day and night, and I had to dig into that loss. Why did we have that loss? Even with a lot of pushback from these genius traders, who said you wouldn't understand. I had to find all the weak controls, diagnose some pretty complex issues, and bring in teams of people and experts to help.
And we did. We brought in smart staff and great consultants, a new compliance officer, and it just really professionalized our services and made us stronger and really better as a result. So what I took away was that digging in and taking responsibility for that loss and working it through in detail, was really the start of a journey toward transformation.
And so you can't look at a problem and think, oh my gosh, I'm doomed. Or, this is just a problem. That problem is probably going to be an opportunity for you. And I've seen this over and over. If you dig into a problem from that problem, if you work at it, you can get transformation and you can end up in a much better place than where you were.
And even if people think you're wrong early on, and if you just need to persist through, get the job done, work through the problem, and then later you'll see as I did that it was transformative. And people tend to come around over time, even if it takes a long time, and they'll say, wow, it's really good that you did what you did and wow, we really saw some good things happen as a result of you and your team of people who came in to figure out why things went wrong.
And I guess another thing that comes to mind here is that at the end of the day, sometimes it's the simplest questions and sticking with the simplest, high-level questions that matter for solving problems and creating transformation. Because I remember one of the first questions I asked the traders was,
Where did the oil go that you thought you were trading?
They didn't know where the oil had gone. And so, we spent a lot of time having to come back to that question over and analyzing, digging through years of data and models that would go from trading models that went from the floor to the ceiling. But we always had to come back to that basic question, where did the oil go?
And that really helped guide us through and get to the bottom of it. And by getting that simple question asked, everything changed about how we traded oil over the next few years. So that kind of led me also into thinking that re-engineering is important and that even now at Mission I go back to a lot of my re-engineering experiences and when we have a new church or a new ministry, or a new nonprofit that comes and works with us at Missionwell, we like to re-engineer, rethink, how do they do their work? What are the problems they're facing? Doing that and solving those problems even if we have to push through some barriers with our business partners, really helps us deliver high-quality services.
And it gives them more time to focus on the mission and it can become a piece of their transformation. So, this idea of viewing problems as opportunities for transformation, I think is important for me and for our teams at Missionwell, and probably for more people, more than they think.
[00:17:00] Tommy Thomas: So of all the work you've ever done, what's the most ambitious project you've tackled?
[00:17:07] Caryn Ryan: That project I just mentioned might have been one of them, that was very all-encompassing. But another one that comes to mind is at Amoco, and this was before I moved to London.
We implemented SAP and SAP is an integrated end-to-end business and financial system. And it affected everybody on how they worked. Just everybody across the entire organization. At that time, I was working in the chemical sector of Amoco and what I did there is I just found a great leader to come in and take that job.
I had an inside track just from the networking I had done, and I just knew somebody who had the skills to do this. And after she came, she helped the chemical sector, and our sector did better than most in terms of implementing this. It was happening across the entire corporation, and our sector did better than most.
And when I was then transferred to another downstream sector the one that retails oil and gas and has some refineries, I brought her in there because they had so many problems that they couldn't even, this is for a huge Fortune 15 company. They couldn't close their books.
They didn't know how they were doing in terms of trucking oil back and forth to refineries. Everything was not working. Nothing was working. And when she came in, just bringing in the right leader, just calming things down focusing on the right problems. There was so much that needed to get fixed.
And she really just had the expertise to do it. So you really just have to bring in the right person. But it wasn't just her, it was the whole team. It was all the leaders. It was pretty much this commitment that we have to get in and solve this problem. Knowing it wasn't going to be easy, knowing that it was going to be messy and complicated, but it was such a high priority.
You just, we all knew it was a top priority. And the team, because they understood that it was such an important priority. Everybody was involved, and this was hundreds of people, hundreds and hundreds of people. Everybody got involved and took their piece and parts and just worked on delivering it so we could get the business back up and running and get the books closed and make sure that the downstream operations were functioning with the information that they needed.
[00:19:22] Tommy Thomas: With ambition I guess can come risk. What's the biggest risk you ever took in business?
[00:19:27] Caryn Ryan: I might go more personal on the risk side. Maybe one of the biggest risks I've taken with starting Missionwell. While from a business perspective, the risk was not having enough capital or knowledge or understanding.
I risked a lot of my own savings and my earnings potential. And I knew that if we failed, I was responsible for my staff losing their jobs and my business partners losing services that can be difficult to get filled. So I think that was a pretty big risk. And my SIMA profile, if you were to read it, says
I'm an overcomer and a maximizer in that I persist through obstacles.
And all those things have been true. And I think if you go into a situation where you're taking risks and you understand what risks you're taking then you'll manage them and the rewards that you get are really incredible. It's been all the time at Mission Oil and our growth over the last few years has just been amazing.
We recruit better and stronger people. We don't need as much capital now. And we just help so many organizations with great missions. Taking risks - you have to do it. No pain, no gain. Risk is the pain of managing it is significant, but the rewards are definitely worth it.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:20:44] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned hiring and building a staff. What's the main thing you're looking for in a senior person?
[00:20:50] Caryn Ryan: Right now, essentially our recruiting is guided by our values. I'm looking for a fit in terms of, is this a person who really believes that nonprofits and or religious organizations matter in the world?
And if that box is checked, we can proceed. And then we ask, does this person value people? And do they know how to value people and how to motivate people? And then we'll ask relative to our partnering value, is this a person who can relate well to others? Is it a person who can help them?
And they need to be able to pass that too. And then relative to principles, we're looking for character, good, really good character in people. So we are looking for people who can talk to us about character and when they've used aspects of the character to make decisions. And then finally we'll look at process and ask, is this a person who really knows how to look at, we're in the business of offering services, so they need to be able to look at work as a process and say, how can we make this better, faster, smoother work better for our business partners? And if they can hit all those and have the technical or functional expertise that we need, then chances are they're going to be a good fit.
[00:22:01] Tommy Thomas: Wow. So, what does the interview process look like for you? Say you spot somebody, and you think this looks good. What does the interview process look like from start to finish? Is it a day, is it a week?
[00:22:12] Caryn Ryan: The interview process at my company starts out with our HR department. They do a variety of pre-checks, pre-screens, and then depending on the seniority of the person I might do up to three meetings with the person.
And those are typically via Zoom because we're oftentimes hiring people to work remotely. Even now moving from our regular professional staff to the leadership level. We're looking to start moving more and more remote with that. So sometimes I don't even meet our staff or our senior people now in person.
It's strictly via Zoom. So, we've learned how to form relationships. We've learned how to test and assess. We've learned how to talk to people on Zoom and make the connections that we need to make with them and do the assessments that we need to do. It helps that one of my HR staff is actually remote too, so she really deeply understands remote recruiting.
And by the time a candidate comes to me, they've been pretty well vetted by my team. And I will dig in on the leadership qualities sometimes so that the questions that I'll ask are similar even to some of the questions you're asking me. Tell me about a time when you faced a big decision and how did you handle it?
So, we're looking for not only the values match, but to some extent what are the leadership competencies that are going to be needed for that particular job. And asking them to come back with behavioral or observational data to us so that we can actually get a feel for how they actually operate day to day.
We allow people a lot of time to ask us questions too. We're always constantly trying to stop and pause. It's not a one-way decision. We know that. We also allow a whole lot of time to answer questions when we bring a person on. That's not the end. We know that a great orientation for the person is important.
If they're going to be a fit, they need to be oriented really well. And we need to do a lot of check-ins with them early on to just be sure things are working okay for them. So, we view it a little bit holistically, you have great job descriptions posting appropriately doing the right amount of interviewing with people, and then making sure that they get settled in when they come.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:24:27] Tommy Thomas: I want to change gears a minute and say that if you were on a nonprofit version of a Shark Tank show and you had nonprofit organizations presenting their case to you, what are you going to have to know really well before you open up your checkbook?
[00:24:46] Caryn Ryan: This is interesting, but really Tommy, I don't think it's any different for a non-profit, than it would be for a for-profit organization. So, you're always asking, do you have a good vision? And a really big and important question is, do you have the resources? And that's in terms of money but it's also in terms of the network of people to support you in making steps towards your vision and making things happen.
And then do you have the drive? Do you feel called for this? How do you demonstrate that? How do you demonstrate that you have the call and that you have the drive? Are you a persister? One thing that will happen for every new organization is just tons of obstacles and problems. They're nonstop.
And so, you have to have that ability to persist and to say, look, I see this obstacle. Am I going to go over it, under it, or around it? But for sure I'm going to go around it or get through this. You need to have that kind of a foundational trait characteristic. I think the difference really between a for-profit and non-profit is where you get the money from.
The Shark Tank for the for-profit might be from investors or a bank. Whereas the Shark Tank for a nonprofit might be from stakeholders, donors, and grantors. You've got to make sure that the business plan reflects that. But you still have to have the money and you still have to have the people.
And the sense of call might be different too. I think if you're working in a for-profit, you may have a vision around some new product or service. In the nonprofit world, your call may be even more deeply embedded. Especially if it's a religious calling. It may be something that's very right-tied or connected to your faith, but it doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter how deeply connected it is to your faith. If you don't have the same things that a for-profit needs, your chances of being successful fall. Now, God can always come in and intervene, but if you're going to do your part in it you need the same things that a for-profit does.
Our guest next week will be Jerry White. Jerry's a retired United States Air Force Major General, and a former International President of The Navigators. Earlier in his career, he worked in the startup days of NASA as a professor at the Air Force Academy.
[00:27:23] Jerry White: We prayed and told the Air Force, send us anywhere you want. Just give me an engineering job somewhere. And with absolutely no hint from me or any input from anybody that I know, the Air Force sent me to Cape Canaveral in the New American Space Program.
Tommy, I didn't even know what it was, and I became a mission controller, got right smack in the middle of all of the new stuff that the Air Force was doing. The manned flights, the Mercurys, the Geminis, Atlas, Titan, Polaris, you name it. And every conceivable kind of rocket. And in that, I got a new glimpse of the future.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
2021 Distinguished Alumni Recipient Caryn Ryan, '79
Missonwell Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Caryn Ryan's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Lindy Black: I know in my own life having seen that the test is not when things are smooth.
The test is when the road is bumpy and the water's choppy to really see what you're made of and how deeply you can dig to the place of learning to love as well as listen and respond with character and quality.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:00:22] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation with Lindy Black of The Navigators that we started last week. In my research for the conversation with Lindy, I read about the impact that journaling has played in her life. Let's pick up the conversation there.
In my preparation for the conversation, you indicated to me that you practiced journaling. Yes. How did that get started?
[00:00:51] Lindy Black: When I was in college, a long time ago I was taught how to have a daily time with the Lord. You answered three basic questions. So what did I read?
And what did the passage say? What did I learn from it and what did I want to do? Now it can be framed in all different ways, but those three questions and the encouragement took a whole year, and I had this lovely little book that had every day of the year, and so I, they said if you do this for a year, you will gain depth.
In your relationship with God, you'll also begin to observe things, patterns you can go back through and read it and see what God was teaching you that year. That was a long time ago, but that was the seed of where I am today in journaling. Now, I do not journal every day. I don't record everything.
I use my journal to hit highlights of something God has done. It's a place where I process things about our children, our grandchildren, or other people who, as I'm writing things out, I'm praying and I'm dialoguing with the Lord. Things become clearer. I also learned, I don't know the first person to tell me this, but they used a multicolored pen and their thoughts were always in black ink.
But when a specific verse or a key insight that they felt was significant from the Lord, they would put that in red. So, when you flip back through your journal, it's pretty apparent when something very significant popped up. So, my journals are very much a place for recording progress. I generally put the hard things in my journal. I don't know if that's good or bad, but I find that's a place, a safe place for me to process what's going on.
[00:03:02] Tommy Thomas: When you're mentoring someone do you encourage them to journal?
[00:03:06] Lindy Black: Sometimes. It depends on the scenario. Some people are averse to writing. It is not a place that brings blessing and joy and you have to find that out.
I'm thinking of a woman in particular, she is such an external processor to have to sit and write is just brutal for her. And so you don't want to put that on somebody who doesn't like it. The thing though that I do try to encourage all people that I engage with is by at least recording the high spots of what you're learning and you're hearing a theme all the way through this, the word Learn, Learning, Learner.
You just can't remember, oftentimes those really spectacular moments when you had a breakthrough. You either have an insight into a person you're working with or supervising or an experience with one of your kids, an engagement with your spouse, or a team event that really, may have just gone horribly, but by writing it out, did those big things.
Then you can go back. Someone encouraged me to read through my journal at the end of each year and see what themes were there and what I was, what was going on, and what I was learning. That has been a very valuable discipline for me because it, on the one hand, encourages me that I'm not the same.
I've been growing, I've been becoming more of who God intended me to be. And it also lends to having concrete pieces, meaty pieces to share with others to encourage them on their journey.
[00:04:55] Tommy Thomas: In some of the material I read about you that at some point you got involved in Trueface Leadership Catalyst.
And I wonder if there's a short story behind that, and then how has that impacted you as a leader?
[00:05:07] Lindy Black: We had what we called a mentoring intensive, and that was the first time I met Bill Thrall, one of the leaders at that time of Trueface Leadership Catalyst.
And I had also read The Ascent of a Leader, which is one of their books from, I guess it was written about 30 years ago now.
So, there were principles there that about you want to continue to grow in competence and character. If you only grow in character but not competence, you're going to be a truncated leader. If you grow in competence, but your character doesn't continue to make progress, you will implode.
You absolutely will implode. So I'd read the book and then Bill Thrall was part of our mentoring intensive and there were some key things he introduced me to. And one of those was a definition of humility, trusting God and others with me. That definition right there changed my life. So, for me to walk in humility with God and others meant I entrusted, I trusted myself, who I was, my good, bad, and ugly.
The whole thing was humility, particularly with God and then also with others. So, there were some jewels that began to change me both from that book as well as from those early meetings with Bill Thrall that went on to be a part of the High Trusts Leader course they offered and a number of other things.
I did some teaching with Bruce McNichol and that has been a great privilege for me. And today I am two and a half years in of being a board member. And my greatest motivation there was to be able to give back to a ministry that has really meant a great deal to me.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:07:04] Tommy Thomas: You stepped down at Christmas from your role on the national leadership team. What's it been like so far, to let go of that and look toward this next season?
[00:07:15] Lindy Black: It's mostly been good, but there have been some harder things too. So, the good is that I have a whole new level of flexibility and freedom that I haven't for quite a while, and that is, I think I just have deep joy in that and not having to race out the door early most mornings to make it to a meeting.
Just not having the volume of work to do brings that about. So that's been really good. I've found that we've been able to do a little bit more with our family. We have three married children and 12 grandchildren. Have some flexibility there. I also think just not getting up so early has been great.
I'm averaging about an hour more of sleep, I think, than I have. That does wonders for the soul. That's the good part. And I'm having a few more different kinds of opportunities that are bringing a lot of blessing and satisfaction to my heart. That's some of the good, alright.
The other part is, it's probably twofold. One is I really miss the intense and challenging dialogues. I mean that positively with my teammates. I miss that. I still, of course, can see them and have relationships, but it's just not quite the same. And there are days when I just really miss the team interaction, and I miss not having the consistent time I did with the individuals.
And most days I'm able to handle the fact that I'm not in the center anymore and I don't know everything going on. And being content to let go of that is largely okay, but sometimes there's that feeling of being left out and I'm not in the center where I've lived, especially for the last 13 years. So mostly good and some hard.
[00:09:27] Tommy Thomas: Occasionally I do some speaking on succession planning, and I guess one of the things I've observed, and maybe this is more true for men as they begin to think about transition and next season, is that they don't realize how much of their identity is tied up in the job. Did you face any of that?
[00:09:44] Lindy Black: I can't speak for all women, but my observation is that I've had a little easier time than some of the brothers in stepping out. I don't know if part of that is because my leadership opportunities came a bit later. Some of my real significant opportunities came after our kids were, they were graduating from high school and beginning the journey to college.
That may be a factor there, I think.
I never thought I would've had the privilege to do what I'm doing, so I really feel like I'm the most blessed to be able to have had those opportunities.
And I just love, I love being home. I love it. I don't even mind doing laundry and cooking. I actually enjoy all that.
So, there's so much of my life that is still present and rich and growing. So, I love working. I don't think I'm a workaholic, although I've bordered on that sometimes in the past. But I love being active and working, so I can still do that at this stage. And I don't feel that my identity was wrapped up in a career in the same way that some of the men that I'm working with have walked through that.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:11:07] Tommy Thomas: That's encouraging. I want to go to a section of the podcast that I always enjoy, and that's getting people to respond to some quotes. I'm just going to go through some quotes and maybe you'll speak from experience or observation, but so the first one let's go.
Dr. Martin Luther King said, “The ultimate measure of a person is not where they stand in moments of convenience, but where they stand in moments of challenge, moments of great crisis in controversy”.
[00:11:36] Lindy Black: Wow. I That rings so true. And I know in my own life having seen that the test is not when things are smooth. The test is when the road is bumpy and the water's choppy to really see what you're made of and how deeply you can dig to the place of learning to love as well as listen and respond with character and quality.
[00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: Ben Zander, the Conductor of the Boston Philharmonic, said, “The conductor doesn't make a sound, the conductor's power depends on his ability to make other people powerful”.
[00:12:17] Lindy Black: Wow. I love that. I love it. If I were to give you a little one-sentence job description, it's been to be able to see that happen with our children. But also, with those I've worked with.
[00:12:36] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox said, “Progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base and keep your foot on first.”
[00:12:47] Lindy Black: Whoa. As I'm listening to that and I immediately went in my head, it's Lindy, where do you have your foot on first base, but you're wanting to be on second?
[00:12:59] Tommy Thomas: President Eisenhower said, “In preparing for a battle, I've always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable”.
[00:13:08] Lindy Black: That pokes into, if you are not as a leader, willing to adjust, adapt, and move with new circumstances piling in, in other words, I'm going to work my plan no matter what. You are going to be one disappointed, frustrated leader, but having done your planning. Wow. I love that one.
[00:13:30] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from Thomas Edison. “Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.”
[00:13:42] Lindy Black: Oh yes. I mean it building what is on your heart in your dream? Or a new idea. Oh, it is like privilege, but that 99% sweat and labor.
[00:14:01] Tommy Thomas: “When you're sitting around the table with your leadership team, you never want to be the smartest person at the table.”
[00:14:08] Lindy Black: I've never heard that before. But see, that to me ties into this whole aspect of humility and also of drawing the best of each other, out of others.
[00:14:22] Tommy Thomas: Let's see here. So, here's one from a guy, Warren Benes. He was writing back when I was in graduate school, so this comes from days gone by.
“Too many companies believe people are interchangeable. Truly gifted people never are. They have unique talents. Such people cannot be forced into roles they're not suited for, nor should they be. Effective leaders allow great people to do the work they were born to do.”
[00:14:55] Lindy Black: See I really agree with that. My question or challenge to that would come in that you have to do a variety of things, much of which you will not be great at before you can get to the place where you do know who you are, what you're made of, and where your strengths are.
So, if you introduce that to someone who is 25 years old that may be difficult because they need some real-life experiences and leadership opportunities to understand what they're made of.
[00:15:26] Tommy Thomas: Booker T. Washington said, “ Success is to be measured not so much by the position one has reached in life, but by the obstacles he's overcome.”
[00:15:35] Lindy Black: Wow. I think sometimes it's hard to remember some of the obstacles, perhaps that one. Yeah, to be able to know and be able to give. Give great things. Have a heart of gratitude for those things.
[00:15:52] Tommy Thomas: So I'm not going to be able to pronounce this person's name. I know she was from France. Let's just leave it at that.
“If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood, and don't assign them tasks and work. Rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the open sea.”
[00:16:10] Lindy Black: Yeah. Keep focused on the vision as opposed to the nitty gritty detail.
[00:16:16] Tommy Thomas: “Many ideas grow better when transplanted into another mind than the one where they sprang up” from Oliver Wendell Holmes.
[00:16:24] Lindy Black: I wonder what he was picturing when he said that. If he was Ricky recognizing the reality that sometimes people who can dream dreams may not be able to have the know-how to see it actually come to be.
[00:16:41] Tommy Thomas: That's where my mind went when I read that. Some people, yeah, they're dreamers, they're vision casters, they're vision setters. That same notion, I think needs to be planted into minds as somebody that can execute.
[00:16:53] Lindy Black: That's interesting you say that Tommy because I feel like that describes where my best contribution has been, particularly these last 12 years because I've worked with some incredible visionary leaders.
And so you have this incredible vision, this motivating, charismatic personality, and then you have people who are going to be the most impacted. But how do you bridge from the people who are in everyday life living out the vision to the grander of what they're presenting? You don't just need a detailed plan, but you need to know how to win hearts all the way along the way. And I think that's something I've really enjoyed being able to do.
[00:17:42] Tommy Thomas: “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” George Burns.
[00:17:53] Lindy Black: I love that because you, because most people think, I said it, so therefore it's been communicated, and you have no idea what was heard.
[00:18:04] Tommy Thomas: “No matter what job you have in life, your success will be determined 5% by your academic credentials, 15% by your professional experiences, and 80% by your communication skills.”
[00:18:20] Lindy Black: Wow - I have not heard that one before, but that is very true. And understanding communication is always two-way. It's never one way.
[00:18:27] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from Peter Drucker. “The most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.”
[00:18:35] Lindy Black: Oh yeah. So how do we help people grow in that skill? I don't know. Do you think that can be learned or is it innate? What do you think?
[00:18:46] Tommy Thomas: I don't know. I guess I got to believe we can learn to become better listeners.
But to hear something that's not being said, that's got to have a little bit of intuition.
A group is a bunch of people in an elevator. A team is a bunch of people in the elevator, but the elevator is broken.
[00:19:09] Lindy Black: Because they have to be a team at that point. They can't just be their own people stuck together.
[00:19:14] Tommy Thomas: Leadership is engaging other people to deliver desired results.
[00:19:19] Lindy Black: And I think if it's only about you determining the desired results, it will be limited. But if it is the group deciding what the results need to be, it'll put you further down the road.
[00:19:33] Tommy Thomas: There's great power and authenticity.
Oscar Wild said, “Be yourself. Everyone else has been taken”. St. Catherine of Sienna, put it this way. “Be who God meant you to be, and you'll set the world on fire.” So maybe think back and maybe get off the response and maybe get a little deeper here. Give me some things, some of the things that you've learned about authenticity over the years.
[00:19:57] Lindy Black: There are two words that I think are significant here. One is transparency and one is vulnerability. I can be transparent and be very honest, but there's a glass wall up. So you can see who I am, that's a way to describe it. You see me, but you can have no connection or impact or voice with me.
But vulnerability is being honest with others, an individual or others. But you give, but you're vulnerable. But as you're vulnerable, you actually open the way to engage with other people and not just, oh, you can see me, but you have no access or entrance into my mind, heart, or life. So, authenticity in and of itself means being real, but I think you can be real and transparent and alone and isolated, and you can be real and be vulnerable because you're opening up your heart to the influence of others. I think that's part of humility.
Can I go back to being authentic? I think you have to be careful not to entrust the deepest parts of yourself to people who will not handle that carefully.
And that's probably been one of the things that I would say has been a hard place for me, and that is I so much enjoy knowing others and having them know me, having been hurt a couple of times with offering more of myself than what that person was able to hold. In kindness and love and carefulness, that's been, that's a hard one.
You don't want to become jaded. You don't want to put a wall up. But you do have to learn to be wise in how much you share with different people.
++++++++++++++++++++
[00:22:05] Tommy Thomas: What do you understand today about your life that you didn't understand a year ago?
[00:22:15] Lindy Black: I would say not at a level 10, but at a very middle of the road. I have learned that I really am dispensable. I am not indispensable. Other people can do things. They may not do things the way I would do them, but it doesn't mean they're not able to do things in a way that to carry. The function, having just stepped out of my role, that's a really big deal to me.
So, I think I've been able to move from, I'm like, picture your hand clenched. I must do this. I know how to do this. I am super critical to the process, the future, whatever. And little by little, I've been able to feel my hand opening up over the course of this last year in a way that it doesn't go to the place where I am not valuable or needed or important, but being able to say I trust others carrying this baton forward and I can let go.
And that's been probably, I would say it's on some days that's been a little harder than I would care to admit, but it has been.
[00:23:32] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time, what would you tell a younger version of yourself?
[00:23:37] Lindy Black: I would say a couple of things.
First, failure is rarely fatal. That failure is a normal part of growing up and maturing.
That's one thing I would've needed to, I wish I had heard that often, and maybe I did hear it, but I didn't receive it and I didn't believe it. I would say secondly,
learn to be kind to yourself.
I've been driven in a variety of ways most of my life. And I've grown up in some ways being able to not take myself quite as seriously but learning to be kind to myself and taking care of myself. I would've benefited to have heard that more often in my younger years.
I think I've learned to do that, but it has been, I feel a little later in life than I wish it had been. I'd say the other thing is because when God opens doors, say yes and walk through those. Don't hold back even if you have no idea where this open door is going to lead.
[00:24:48] Tommy Thomas: Thinking about younger women in leadership, Lindy, what are your observations there about the ways that we might can improve that as a society and as a culture?
[00:24:59] Lindy Black: Yes. Great question. I feel my number one encouragement is to pay attention to the emerging women leaders in the span of your business or your organization. Most of them lack confidence in what they think they can bring. And some of that, it's a very interesting ambiguity that can go on. I think in women want to lead, they want to make a significant contribution, but they hold back or they're fearful.
My number one encouragement is to pay attention to the emerging women leaders in the span of your business or your organization.
And that could be for a number of different reasons, but it's that push-pull, and wise leaders, wise mentors and coaches will be able to pay attention and help emerging women leaders be able to understand more about themselves.
It is my experience that these emerging women leaders may need a bit more, I would call it a more defined pathway to run in. And you could really serve them by saying, this is what I would like for you to do. I believe you can do it, go after it. As opposed to just prove yourself and it is wide open. I would think emerging leaders need a bit more of a defined pathway. They also need a great deal of emerging women leaders of affirmation and feedback.
I find that in general, women don't get as much of that in the workplace as perhaps their male counterparts and they need it, I'd say even more so keep those things in mind.
[00:26:43] Tommy Thomas: Can that come from a male supervisor as well as a female supervisor?
[00:26:48] Lindy Black: Yes, definitely in my own life, most of the most significant influencers in terms of supervisors, they've been men.
I don't even know, Tommy, in the last 20 years, I haven't had a supervisor that was a woman. And their paying attention to what I need to develop to bring the best contribution possible has been invaluable. And my observation is not many women have that in the workplace, especially in higher levels of executive leadership, there are just many more men in those roles than women.
And so, I've had the incredible privilege of serving under several. So yes, absolutely, male supervisors can do that. Now, the best combination would be to have an excellent supervisor, be they male or female, but then also have a woman being able to walk alongside in a coaching, mentoring capacity. So both.
What comes through to me is often insecure. I don't know my way; the world has completely changed the landscape for women in their jobs and careers. It's new. Women haven't walked in the place that the world is today.
And I think that landscape, we're going to need to understand more and more how do we help women in their season that they find themselves. How are we going to meet them where they are and bring them the development they need because they're hungry to receive that training and development?
++++++++++++++++++++++++
You can see from these two conversations with Lindy, what a blessing she's been to The Navigators. I'm sure that the leadership there is glad that she will continue to walk along the side of their emerging leaders.
Our guest next week will be Caryn Ryan. Caryn spent 20 years with Amoco Corporation and BP Plc. And then later with the merged organization BP/Amoco.
She held key finance positions in London, the Soviet Union, Chicago, and Houston. She was recruited by World Vision International, where she served as their Chief Financial Officer. She will be sharing her journey from BP/Amoco to World Vision to her current role as Founder and Managing Member of Missionwell.
[00:29:16] Caryn Ryan: I was a mediocre boss at best. I didn't see the role as servant leadership initially. I really saw it as leading a production team to goals. And in addition, I had a boss at the time who was a great example of how not to treat people.
But as my time in that seat progressed, I learned that every boss has to protect their people. They must advocate for them, and they have to develop their staff. And these are the things that allow people to flourish. And to this day maybe just based on how tough that job was one of my joys is mentoring young people and bringing them along.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Navigators
TrueFace - Lindy Black
The Assent of a Leader
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Lindy Black's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Lindy Black: Through the encouragement of several different people, I learned to be a student of people. And in doing that, they often don't realize that you are studying everything about them. You're looking at their facial expressions, their non-verbal body language.
You're looking at their tone or listening to their tone and more than all of those is that you're listening to the words they're saying and, in a sense, becoming a student of who they are. When you do that, you can remain in a posture of a learner.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Lindy Black. Lindy is transitioning into her leadership role with The Navigators. She stepped off the National Leadership Team after the tenure of 12 years at the end of 2022. Her new role is walking alongside men and women serving in the background as a coach and developer of existing and new national leaders.
I first met Lindy when I was conducting the Vice-President of Development search for The Navigator several years ago. When we conduct a search, we typically interview members of the senior staff as part of our due diligence. Lindy was an easy person to interview. And as I remember, she gave us a lot of valuable input for the search.
Another thing we have in common is our love for Auburn University. Lindy spent several years serving on The Navigator staff at Auburn. And I took my electrical engineering degree from Auburn and came to be a Christ follower doing my sophomore year. Let's pick up on my conversation with Lindy Black.
[00:01:44] Tommy Thomas: Before we go too deep into your professional career, let's go back to your childhood. I'm always curious as to how people got their start. What's your most memorable experience from childhood?
[00:01:54] Lindy Black: I don't know if I would be able to just say one, because our family moved about every two years, and in that process, my dad, who is still living at 93, was a football coach. His goal was to be a head professional football coach.
And so consequently we moved a great deal and in that, there was every single place we lived, there was always the reality that there was something new and fresh there. I didn't always think it would be, but every time God came through and put a new situation that was very… I don't know if I'd use the word developmental, but it just helped me be more of the person I have become today.
So, all that moving around and having a football coach for a dad produced some things in me for sure.
[00:02:52] Tommy Thomas: Staying on that theme for a minute, what would you say was the greatest gift that you got from your parents in your childhood?
[00:03:01] Lindy Black: I would say they were so different. My mom was so merciful and kind and listening and caring, always seeing the one who may not be seen.
And my dad was driven. He was a Vince Lombardi fan to the max. His motto was, winning isn't everything, it's the only thing. The blend of those two things that's their gift. To me, they were so different. And on a good day, I like to believe I have the best of both of them, at least at work inside of me. I'm not exclusively one or the other. But that was their blending of themselves definitely was the greatest gift.
[00:03:43] Tommy Thomas: What's something that people are surprised to find out about?
[00:03:46] Lindy Black: If they haven't been around me much, I think they will be surprised at how competitive I am. I guess that comes from being the daughter of a football coach, Tommy.
But once they're around me a little bit, then they'll understand that oh yeah, they're not surprised then. So, I would love to think that being competitive, can have a real negative connotation for sure. But for me, I think it was a push to excel.
Tommy Thomas: Yeah, sticking with that for a minute, I interviewed Dr. Linda Livingstone at Baylor recently. She was an All-American basketball player at Oklahoma State. I asked her about the competitive nature and how a Christian either resolves or lives in the center of the tension of that.
So, I would pose that question to you. How, as a Christian, do you live in the center of the tension of being competitive?
[00:04:39] Lindy Black: I think there's a competitive spirit where you want to be all that you can be and that can be very healthy. I think when it becomes unhealthy, at least in my own experiences, when by being competitive you put down others.
Now on a ball field, you want to win on a basketball court, on a track meet you want to win, being the best you can be and somebody will lose. However, in real life, that same spirit, which is what I'm describing in me, I think it's healthy when it provokes you to excel. Still, the unhealthy part comes in when it is to the detriment or the putting down, the oppressing, the powering up over someone else.
++++++++++++++++++
[00:05:28] Tommy Thomas: When you joined The Navigators did you think it would be a career?
[00:05:33] Lindy Black: In a sense, I had my original career first, which was being a secondary math teacher. And so, when God called myself and Vic, my husband out, he was a systems analyst working in a computer company, and I was a school teacher when he called us out of that, I think there was a deep sense that we were all in for a lifetime if he wanted to change the path that was up to him. We saw it as a lifelong calling, but we were a little older when that step took place.
[00:06:08] Tommy Thomas: So how long had you been in public education?
[00:06:10] Lindy Black: About seven years at that time.
[00:06:11] Tommy Thomas: So you were probably in your early thirties when God called you.
[00:06:14] Lindy Black: Yeah, I was in my late twenties. Vic was in his early thirties.
[00:06:18] Tommy Thomas: Go back to your first management role when you actually had people reporting to you. What do you remember about that?
[00:06:27] Lindy Black: My first team that I led had four men on it, and they were all older than me and they had more experience than me. The first tangible emotion that came to mind is I was nervous, and I felt insecure. Now, many years later, I read the best article on leading people who know more than you do.
What I was learning in that early first management was that I needed to lean into the expertise and actually the greater knowledge of my teammates. And in doing that, not only was I learning, but it gave me an opportunity to affirm and encourage their development in what they were bringing.
But I don't think I could have articulated that in the first couple times we met together. So, leaning into people who know more. There's an art to that and I think I was early on in learning how to draw others out, how to affirm them, and how to bring their best because then the team is at its best and I get to grow. So that was my first memory.
[00:07:43] Tommy Thomas: So fast forward to your most recent assignment before you began to go into this next season of life, if I could have been present at a team meeting and we dismissed you and I asked them what would be the most challenging thing about working for Lindy? What would they say?
[00:07:58] Lindy Black: The most challenging, they would say sometimes she drives too hard to get to closure. And because of that, she can push us faster than maybe we want to be pushed. That would be one thing. I think they would, that's probably in the team context. That would've been the thing they would say.
[00:08:20] Tommy Thomas: So can you think of, without naming the names of the guilty or the innocent, can you think of a time when you did that and looking back how that went down?
[00:08:29] Lindy Black: I think what happened is that the decisions, the endpoint of the discussion, that we didn't get to the best landing point, because I pushed for closure there. In a sense, we truncated some of the creative thinking and the deeper thinking because I was more concerned that we had an end to it versus the depth of the discussion. I'm picturing a particular situation and I think that was the case.
We didn't get to the best conclusion and then we had to come back to it and it's always harder to come back. So that was a hard balance for me to learn because I'm a closure person and I want to see a process finish and not just stay up in the realm of ideas and in the clouds, but actually get to a point where we can move forward together as a team.
[00:09:26] Tommy Thomas: If we flip that question, what would they say was the most rewarding part of working for Lindy?
[00:09:33] Lindy Black: They would say, if I know Lindy’s leading the meeting, we're gonna be okay. She will draw out people, she will listen. But she has an intuitive sense of when to stop the discussion most times and when to let it go a little bit longer.
[00:09:51] Tommy Thomas: Successful people are always asked, what makes you successful? I want to maybe frame that question a little differently and maybe the question would read what is a factor that helped you succeed that people on the outside probably wouldn't realize?
[00:10:08] Lindy Black: I don't know if they would be able to observe this, Tommy, or not. But I think through the encouragement of several different people, I learned to be a student of people. And in doing that, they often don't realize that you are studying everything about them. You're looking at their facial expressions, their non-verbal body language.
You're looking at their tone or listening to their tone, and more than all of those is that you're listening to the words they're saying and, in a sense, becoming a student of who they are. When you do that, you can remain in a posture of a learner, which is a high value for me, is to stay in the posture of a learner.
So I don't think people know how much I'm absorbing about their outward look as well as their thoughts that they're communicating and the emotion that I perceive. So perhaps they don't realize that everything they're doing is helping me to understand either how to draw the best of them out, how to posture them for their next assignment, or a variety of other things.
[00:11:25] Tommy Thomas: Did a mentor teach you that, or do you learn by reading and how did that come to pass?
[00:11:30] Lindy Black: I have to give my mom first credit on this one. Especially as a teenager, I had words. I really had lots of thoughts and my mom was the best listener because she would be fully present to me.
And what I've wound up realizing later, not initially, is that as she listened to me and continued to pull out more from me, I actually worked my way to a good place, a place of security, or I talked myself to the right decision, or I was able in processing friendships to be able to realize, oh, okay, that friendship probably isn't the best.
But it was rarely because she told me. She gave me enough time and space to be able to be to process that out that. That was the foundation of being a learner an observer and a learner of people. And then realizing if people are given long enough, very often with good questions and a very present listening posture, they actually can come to some of the best solutions all by themselves.
Now, that's in a one-on-one situation. So, I think also, though probably the negative has influenced me just as much. And when I say the negative, I mean watching what happens when people don't listen well, the implications are, they usually lead to a very unhealthy team or an unhealthy working environment.
So some of that is by watching the opposite of what you want to see and learning from that.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:13:14] Tommy Thomas: Were you a trailblazer in The Navigators relative to women in senior leadership?
[00:13:19] Lindy Black: I am not the only one, but I would say yes.
[00:13:22] Tommy Thomas: My early reflections were when I was in my early twenties, that it was probably a pretty male-dominated, is probably the stronger word, but The Navigators I knew were, were men. How did you break into that?
[00:13:37] Lindy Black: If I were being honest, Tommy, back in our early years on staff, we joined navigator staff in 1981, and in from then until probably for at least 10 years, maybe longer, maybe closer to 15.
If you had told me that one day I would be a Senior Vice President and Associate US Director of The Navigators, I would've said in your dreams, that will never happen for me or probably any other woman.
It was going to take too long to see women being able to have the opportunity to contribute who they are and their gifting and strengths. So when I was, it was 1994, and the man leading the campus ministry at the time c called the house and it was in the days when the phone was connected, you couldn't walk around.
It was connected. And he called and I said, hello and we chit chatted. And I said let me go get Vic. And he goes Lin, I don't want to talk to Vic. I want to talk to you. And I said, okay. And he goes, I want to invite you to, it was a Campus Net event going on in London, England a number of months later.
And I said, I remember saying, you want me to go? And he said, yes. And he went on to say some reasons why. And it was not just for my benefit, it was for me to benefit the people around the world from around the world that would be there. Honestly, Tommy, I would've said, I didn't think anybody saw who I was, I didn't, I just thought, I'm doing my wonderful campus ministry with my husband here in Auburn, Alabama. I loved what we were doing, but actually somebody else. There were others watching and I didn't know that. So that opportunity was my first of being invited to bring something that I didn't actually know I could bring.
They asked me to stand in front of the group, and I don't remember the subject, but it was absolutely terrifying to do this. But I began to see, wait, I do have something to offer. So then fast forward about five years my kids were finishing high school and a door opened for me to be engaged with staff training in The Navigators.
And I realized, oh, I'm a people developer. I love this.
And by that time, we had a staff team of about nine men and women and seeing them become more of who they were or who God created them to be. Then that became a niche, and I realized if, especially as a woman, I'm, it's probably true for men too, but to you, you need to find where you can excel and then do it with all your might, because bringing excellence actually opens doors, and that is what happened to me.
So that was an initial place of contribution. Now, as I began to excel in training, then I had I think it was three other doors open up to be an associate director of a particular team. And that was actually new ground for The Navigators at that time. This was in the early 2000s and up until my current role.
So I think in that there were places where I was able to excel and people realized I could bring a contribution that was broader than just the local or just among women, but it would bless the whole of the work.
[00:17:21] Tommy Thomas: Let's stay with this team thing and leading people. What's the most important quality you're looking for when you bring somebody onto your team?
[00:17:29] Lindy Black: I think, and foremost is they don't think they know everything that, that when you see that quality in someone that they think they know a lot or perhaps they know quite a bit, or even everything about the area that your team is focused on, that would be someone I would not want to invite onto a team because that prevents learning from others, learning from God, learning together as a team, because it can often be paired with a strong sense of independence and
People who are going to serve well on a team have to be strong in interdependence.
So that would be one thing I would not want to see. On the positive side, EQ in emotional intelligence, if that is strong, which the beginnings of emotional intelligence, the foundational piece is self-awareness. If a man or woman has a high degree of self-awareness knowing where they have strength, where they have vulnerability, that person will be much more likely to be an excellent team member because they're not independent, but their emotional intelligence brings that deep level of self-awareness, then that can lead to being a good student of other people.
[00:18:50] Tommy Thomas: But say you do make a mistake along the way, and somebody has to leave their job. What have you found to be the best way to terminate somebody?
[00:18:58] Lindy Black: For one thing, I would have asked someone to step out of a role, that should never come as a surprise to them. By the time you get to the point you're saying you can't be in this role any longer, you're done. If that is a surprise to them, then you have definitely failed as a leader.
When you fire someone, if it comes as a surprise to them, you have definitely failed as a leader.
Definitely. So there has to be periodic evaluations and I found being able to have thoughts in writing ahead of time notes to go back to, that's life or death. Because if you're a busy leader, you can't remember all the conversations. And giving people opportunities, whether it's formally in a performance improvement plan or informally just in coaching them to give them the opportunity, every opportunity possible to be able to overcome weaknesses that could potentially remove them from their job.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:19:55] Tommy Thomas: What's the most effective team-building exercise you've ever used?
[00:20:03] Lindy Black: Boy, that is a tough one. I think what I would say is when people tell their stories, let's say you've got a fairly new team, engaged. But when a team begins to hear one another's stories, their background growing up, the realities in their home, and things they've had to overcome as team members begin to do the listening to what shaped this person?
It has a high degree of beginning to sow the seeds of being compassionate toward one another to realize what I see today is a product of other things that have happened in their lives. If you start there, you begin with a deeper understanding and potentially respect for one another. If you start there, it's gonna be easier to go deeper and to build trust in the future.
So, telling their stories is probably one of the, that's probably the most effective beginning point.
[00:21:09] Tommy Thomas: Have The Navigators noticed any difference in maybe you as being a leader in training the generation of people that are coming through your early ranks now than say 15, 20 years ago when you broke into leadership?
[00:21:23] Lindy Black: Our millennial staff they, those men and women, I believe were forerunners of changing a number of things, be moving more toward community engagement, community learning, not just me and one other person, or me and Jesus, but that they ushered in a much more partnering mode into where we currently are now.
That is a good setup for Gen Z who are now graduating from college and beginning to enter the workforce. And some are entering our staff. The place where I believe we are really struggling. And how much of this is the result of the Covid years, and how much is it, would it have been this way regardless of Covid and that?
I'll just call it a healthy relationship, lack of skill. When you think about The Navigators, which is a ministry life to life, if you can't carry on a conversation or initiate with a new person or have the confidence to initiate activities, those types of things,you're going to be in big trouble.
So, the relational aspect and having confidence in knowing how to relate to other people, seem to be one of the biggest challenges today for sure. Now interestingly, I was just recently with a younger group of women, and as we were interacting, I found that their longing to have practical skills in life, in ministry, in all areas, practical skills, learning practical know-how was much higher than I'd noticed for the last two decades in groups of people.
It seems as though they were avid learners and wanted to understand how they could better engage and become more effective in the roles they were filling.
++++++++++++++++++++++
[00:23:31] Tommy Thomas: If we learn from our mistakes, why are we always so afraid to make a mistake?
[00:23:38] Lindy Black: Oh, my goodness. I might be at the top of that list.
I don't know how much you're familiar with the Enneagram, but that has been a significant help to me, both in understanding my strengths, but also in under also in understanding the places where I need to continue to grow and mature. In Enneagram one of the words they use for that is a perfectionist. I have a very high level of inner critic in my person of telling me things I've done wrong.
I have a twofold answer to your question.
I am always thinking how I could have done something better, how you could have done something better, how a process could be improved, and God has really used that and bless that.
Now, sometimes it just gets into a gear. People are just like, couldn't we just do good? Does it always have to be changing and becoming better and better? I put that on myself, and that can be very debilitating. So that's more on the inside of me. On the outside, I think as someone is facing the reality of failure, if you think you have failed and you just press on, you take application from that, apply it to the next situation, you will more than likely miss the meat or the good part of what God would want to teach you.
I'm a very firm believer that experience is not the best teacher, but an evaluated process experience is the best teacher.
I think you can do that by yourself. But if I were to wave my magic wand in this arena of failure and say, what is the most needed situation, tool, or experience, and that is to have someone sit with you, ask you several just basic questions to help you understand what did you intend to do, what went well, what went poorly, what did you learn from it, and that process has helped me not be so afraid of failing because I know nobody's going to do everything perfectly, but when you do assess, evaluate what went on, oftentimes you are the richer for it, and that failure becomes far less debilitating in your own soul.
[00:26:16] Tommy Thomas: Where does that come from?
[00:26:17] Lindy Black: Actually, it was a man, a staff person in The Navigators. His name is Jim, and I happened to be at a workshop he was giving on giving and receiving feedback, and because of my hunger, both to learn personally, and to help other people be learners. It was a skillset or, he just had a basic process where he could walk someone through, and they were able to answer questions. If he was present, then he could actually give them feedback. But this could be, you could walk with someone, and you didn't even have to be there when they had the experience.
Just the question asking and helping them dig deeper and understand what may have been under that. I was so led up, Tommy I thought, that's been probably 25 years ago, and I have been able to both equip others but practice that where people don't even know you're actually helping them in a feedback experience or an evaluated experience.
[00:27:27] Tommy Thomas: What's the most dangerous behavior or trait that you've observed that derails leaders' careers?
[00:27:33] Lindy Black: From my own vantage point, it's people who, their vulnerabilities or their weaknesses. A leader whose vulnerabilities and weaknesses have been overlooked because their strengths are so strong, they're needed, they're valued, and they can be esteemed, platformed, and pushed further on because what they're bringing is of value and ignoring their weaknesses and vulnerabilities because someone didn't have the courage to talk to them and say to them, this is my observation.
Or this is how I'm perceiving you and their weaknesses are overlooked. There are a number of my peers who I believe have not been able to excel to the degree God longed for them because no one was able, it may be other people's choices or their choice to come alongside and say, this is how I experience you.
I believe this is a real vulnerability. So I think weaknesses unlooked at, unchallenged, those things in their character will be the things that will be at the top of the list of derailing them.
Join us next week as we continue this conversation with Lindy Black. One of the topics we will discuss is how she got into journaling and how journaling has impacted her life.
Until then, keep doing the good work you're doing to help make the nonprofit sector more effective, sustainable, and scalable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Navigators
TrueFace - Lindy Black
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Lindy Black's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Christin McClave: I think first I would really want to understand the leader's background. The team, the person, on Shark Tank, they usually have one other person standing with them. And the Sharks are very interested in, where they came from, what their experiences are, how the two or three of them got together and the real dynamic of them working together.
Our guest this week is Christin McClave. Christin is an accomplished senior executive advisor and board member with more than 20 years of success across the manufacturing, supply chain, consumer products, and automotive industries. She began her corporate career with Johnson & Johnson. Most recently she was Chief Operating Officer for their family business Cardona Industries – a 5,000-employee global sustainable manufacturer of parts for the automotive aftermarket. Kristen led Cardone's successful exit strategy in 2019.
Since then, she's been coaching and consulting with various companies that need transformation and streamlined synergy with their people process and technology strategy.
I believe people who've led successfully in the private sector, have a lot to offer nonprofit leaders. Christin is no exception. Christin, welcome to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:23] Christin McClave: Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
[00:01:27] Tommy Thomas: It's good to have you. People a lot of times will ask me, where do you find all these people? And our friend Christine at Talbot at World Vision suggested that I have you as a guest, and I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
I like to start back somewhere toward the beginning. What's your most beloved memory of your childhood?
[00:01:45] Christin McClave: Oh, wow. I'll tell you a little bit about my parents and then that'll give you some context to how I grew up. I grew up in the Philadelphia area. And my father grew up there as well and his family and eventually our family business was headquartered in Philadelphia.
He went to Oral Roberts University in Oklahoma and met my mom there. They were both cheerleaders, and my mom is one of 12 who grew up on a farm in Arkansas, so we had a collision of cultures growing up, which was really wonderful. And I do believe it really set me up in a unique way to relate to a lot of different people across the country.
And some of my best memories. every Thanksgiving probably until I was going to college, maybe a little bit before that, we would go to Tulsa, Oklahoma, which was where my grandparents eventually moved from Arkansas to Oklahoma. And a lot of my aunts and uncles lived there and I, as you can imagine, had, over 50 first cousins and we gathered every single year for Thanksgiving and just grew up together and did all kinds of amazing things with, just learning a whole different kind of way of life from our Philadelphia existence.
My father is Italian, so our Italian American family in Philadelphia was a huge contrast from that. And they were both wonderful, right? The food and the vibrance and the city life that we had in Philadelphia. And then, being able to go and ride horses with my cousins and, collect the eggs from the chicken coop and build forts in the fields and do all kinds of things.
My mom's family is really musical, so we would put on these shows for all the aunts and uncles and just had a really wonderful time every year, looking forward to that Thanksgiving experience.
[00:03:56] Tommy Thomas: Maybe aside, or in addition to that, what do you think is the greatest gift your parents gave you?
[00:04:02] Christin McClave: Oh, wow. There are a lot of them. I think the greatest gift they gave me really has to do with understanding my unique nature. I'm the girl in between two boys, so I have an older brother and a younger brother. And I can say that they really gave me a lot of room to explore my unique personality and capabilities.
And I think, in a time where they could have said, you need to go here to college, or you need to do this and that. I think they recognized from a young age that I was pretty mature and pretty driven and focused and allowed me to have some freedom.
In the context of this, I went to a Christian school. We went to church a couple of times a week. Like I definitely had a lot of structure around from a Christian cultural perspective. But there were a lot of my cousins in that big cousin group, and my brothers also went to Oral Roberts University, and I just, I was really challenged and said, I really do think I need to do something different.
And they really could have forced me to do that. And I ended up at the University of Alabama, which was really different and it was the right place for me because I really felt like I needed to make my own way and figure out where I stood with my faith on my own, in, the context of a secular environment. And God really blessed that experience for me.
[00:05:41] Tommy Thomas: What was the big challenge maybe of going to a secular school like that? Do you remember your freshman year and what the challenges were?
[00:05:49] Christin McClave: Yeah, I think the major, I'll say the shock to my system in the first place was like being in an environment with around people who weren't all exactly like me, their parents had different ideas of why they were there or they had different ideas of why they were there.
It wasn't focused on the spiritual aspect. And it was just a huge pool of students, the size compared to my little high school experience of 40 graduating with 45 kids going to, at that point I think, Alabama was probably 18,000. Now it's much, much bigger.
And I went into the honors college, which kind of gave me a little bit more of a cocoon because it was a smaller group. But you just show up and everybody comes from different worlds, different backgrounds, different spiritual backgrounds. It was certainly in the Bible belt. You could certainly find Christian groups on campus and churches around and, a lot of people who grew up with, a Christian tradition in their family.
So that in and of itself was a good stepping stone to getting out into the real world for me. But at the same time, it was a big shock in a lot of ways. Not only from a spiritual perspective and not having all those guardrails around me being in a Christian school and going to church all the time and youth group and being a leader in my youth group.
But culturally for me, a lot of people are so surprised. I grew up in Philly, in the Northeast, and then heading down to the Deep South for college was a shock to a lot of people. Now it's very different. In Philly you talk to anybody whose kids are applying to colleges and all the kids, from the northeast are very interested in going to schools in the South, in the Midwest. And it's become much more ubiquitous as a college choice.
[00:07:48] Tommy Thomas: Of all the places that one could have worked when you graduated, how did you pick Johnson & Johnson?
[00:07:54] Christin McClave: Yeah, that's a really great story. I had been working at our family business from age 13 to 20 and every summer I would rotate to a different functional area and learn a different part of the business.
Cardone was our family business and we manufactured automotive parts for the aftermarket and we put them through a remanufacturing process. It was actually recycling that we did in a different sort of way. And so, there was a lot to learn and a lot to be done.
And I had a wonderful experience every summer that I worked there. But there was this inkling inside of me saying, are there women in leadership roles somewhere that I could go learn from and be mentored by and just see how they work in the world? Because we didn't really have that at our manufacturing automotive parts company, a very male-dominated environment.
Which, I learned a lot through that as well for my future career. That was a really great experience. But I ended up calling my cousin, my third cousin. She had been at Johnson & Johnson. I needed to find an internship that was close to home.
Going to school in Alabama, I wanted to find something so I could be home for the summer. So, I called her, and I just said, is there any way I could apply for an internship at J&J? I'd love to learn from you, get to know you, and let me know if there's anything available. So she helped me get an internship that summer.
And she just was thrilled to be helping me with that. And that led to me getting a job offer. That was my junior summer. And I got a job offer about six months later to come back full-time after I graduated.
[00:09:50] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about your first management role when you actually had people reporting to you?
[00:09:57] Christin McClave: Yeah, I was really excited about it, honestly. Some people don't find it, to be something to look forward to. I think from my observations being at Cardone for many years and seeing some good leaders, some leaders who you can tell, like the mantle was put on them and they didn't necessarily want to be doing it, but its just, sometimes you just have to do.
So, I was excited to try my hand at managing people. I guess innately I felt like that was going to be one of my strengths.
And I got the interns, that was my first management experience at J&J. They’re all right, your first chance is you get the interns or the, we have co-ops too, up here in Philly, we've got kids that come over from a local university, and they come for six months.
So, there’s the three-month interns and the six-month co-ops. I really enjoyed it. I can say, you learn very quickly that you have to build trust with them. You've gotta find ways to get them focused and moving in the right direction. And then you start thinking, oh wow, I've been getting all these performance reviews myself, and now I've gotta figure out how to give them feedback and create measurable goals and find ways to motivate them.
And a really big lesson I learned at J&J, it was one of their values for all of the younger people working there, they always said,
we need people with can-do attitudes and people who take initiative.
And so that was always something that I learned right away when I was acting in those respects. I got a lot of praise and opportunities and a lot of respect and promotions because that was really something I was like, oh, that's really important to them.
And that's something I certainly, thrive in an environment where I can take initiative and go after things and come be creative and come up with new ideas. So that was really something that I really tried to bring to, managing these interns and co-ops and passing that along to them.
[00:12:08] Tommy Thomas: Did you find at J&J, a group of women mentors and people that could take you on down the road?
[00:12:14] Christin McClave: Yes, I did. My cousin Lisa, who's still at J&J, she's in her early sixties now. She's thinking about retirement in the next few years. But we are regularly having mentor conversations.
And the cool thing is, I'm at the point where I can also give her some advice. It's almost like a circle, a reversal, a full circle of mentorship and coaching that she and I have. There are times when she calls me and asks me for advice now, which is really exciting.
I can think of about five other women who were either in manager, director, or VP level roles at J&J back in the late ‘90s – early 2000’s. They were trailblazers in so many ways. Two of them were sharing a job in a manager role, which was very unique, in the office world and all that we were dealing with. Now we get a lot more flexibility, but there was not a lot of flexibility with how they all had to present themselves.
And a couple of them were having babies and trying to lead and be great mentors for me and I was ended up in the women's leadership program there and I came up through IT and in the IT leadership program. And it was just a wonderful place for me to learn, to get trained, mentored, and developed.
I got so much really solid manager training when I first started there. And I hope young people today are getting that type of mentoring and training and coaching and development that I did. And I always say that's
one huge benefit to going to a big company when you first start your career is to really, suck all of that in, take it all in, and really just be a sponge for what you can learn and grow and see.
Now granted, we were in the office every day, so I'm not so sure how that's all translating in the same respect that it was when I was in the office versus being on a screen with your managers and leaders. And I think we have yet to find out, the impact of all of that.
[00:14:33] Tommy Thomas: You've been through a lot of leadership roles, both at J&J and then in your family business. At what point did you begin to know yourself well enough to know what to look for in leadership?
[00:14:45] Christin McClave: Yeah, I, oh boy. Every leadership role I've had has been so different. And I know just from the experience of having challenging roles and other roles where I was very supported as a leader by my either CEO or whatever the team surrounding me.
And knowing that there are varying degrees of whether you can be successful or not, or what kind of support you need. And so I think, if I would choose what my next leadership role would be, the ideal situation for me is really having the trust and support and belief that whoever the leader is, if it's the CEO, if I'm the CEO, if I'm a C-level executive or just in some other leadership role, that there's solid support ahead of me in that, from a board perspective.
Having that trust and relationship with the board is really important regardless of whatever role you're in a senior leadership role, it's important to really try to build some bridges and relationships with whatever board is in place. If it's the ownership in a family business, having that trust and being trusted by the board and the owner is really important.
And them really trusting that you can make the right decisions about deciding who's on the team and who is giving you the autonomy to make those decisions. That's one thing in my career. Over time I have become so much better at like really understanding, talent, skillsets, and experience, and really combining all of the assessment of all of the talent, the different pieces of talent for leadership.
And I have a pretty good track record at this point of being able to piece together a leadership team or really understand where the holes and gaps are, if it's the governance process because of my experience on a variety of boards, if it's the leadership team inside the company or the organization.
And one of my passions is really around assembling a great leadership team or a great board and finding ways to build that out. That's one thing I really enjoy doing. So sometimes I come in and I know that things are not perfect, which they never are.
Right?
No organization is perfect, but one of my passions and something that I really enjoy doing is seeing where the holes in the gaps are and finding ways to help bolster the organization and help them find the right talent to bring to the table to be successful.
[00:17:40] Tommy Thomas: It's been said that we probably learned most from our failures. If that's the case, why are most of us so afraid to fail?
[00:17:47] Christin McClave: I think we have built these structures, and I'll use an example, these systems in our organizations such as the performance management process, right? I've built so many of those and or tweaked so many of those, or I've been building the technology to automate those things.
And we're always striving for this perfect situation where, we have the corporate goals and then we're going to cascade them and we're going to have KPIs and everybody's going to put their goals in and their personal goals. And we’ve got a team goal, and we build these very complex systems and structures, which are extrinsically and intrinsically driving us to some type of perfect state.
It's an equation, right? Then it's going to equal perfection. We all know that just has not ever happened one time in the world. We can say that across the board in nonprofit organizations, for-profit organizations, any type, churches, whatever it is, we know it never works.
And so, I think the venture capital space, the entrepreneurial space they've done a much better job of highlighting failure and really using failure anecdotes and case studies to really show and normalize that it's okay to fail. And actually, you learn so much and we talk a lot about growth mindset.
That's really what triggers the learning and the growing and the changing and it's our whole system. Even when you even look beyond organizations, you look at our government, and our economy and how much failure isn't really celebrated or recognized. And it should be.
And I'm happy to see that we see a lot more out there, a lot more experiences and biographies and people interviewed about failure and it's really tough though. When you come through all of our systems like high school and college and you take the SATs and then you've got college and then you've got your master's and you're driving towards some sort of if I only do this, then that's going to equal a better outcome and it's just gonna keep building on it.
And we all know there is failure and imperfectness in this world, and it's really an impossible thing to strive for and we can learn so much from our failures.
[00:20:18] Tommy Thomas: So you mentioned the venture capital world. I'm a big fan of Bob Tiede’s blog - Leading with Questions.
Last week, he had a guest guy on there, and the guy talked about what if there was a nonprofit version of Shark Tank? And I thought, then that'd be a good question. What if there was a nonprofit version of something like Shark Tank and you were one of the judges, or you were one of the people that was going to be giving some early-stage investment capital?
What questions would you want to be answered before opening your checkbook?
[00:20:48] Christin McClave: Oh, that's a fun question. I think first of all I would really want to understand the leader's background. The team, the person, on Shark Tank, usually has one other person standing with them. And the Sharks are very interested in, where they came from, their experiences, how the two or the three of them got together and the real dynamic of them working together, and what skills maybe one brings to the table, the other one fills in the gaps. I'd like to really understand that and know that there's some experience they’re building an organization. I think the other piece to that is really the passion, the drive. What is the problem or the issue founder or those co-founders are trying to solve and what's driving that?
And is that passion or is that issue really going to still be driving them in five years or 10 years? Is it something, or is it, more of a short-term thing? The other piece, and I think this probably comes from my experience on nonprofit boards that are probably larger than this would be, but really understanding the percentage of the budget that would actually be going to the work, the problem solving, the issue resolution, and what percentage of the budget would really be, going to administration and or SG&A, or overhead, however you want to say it.
And that may not be important for everybody, all investors, but for me it's the piece that I enjoy digging into from a financial perspective and from an accountability perspective with nonprofits that I either work with or talk to and just understanding, are they managing that equation or that ratio.
And also, as they get larger, they will certainly have donors, investors, and fundraising questions around that in particular. And I think the third thing I would say is who is mentoring them? How do they have support built around them?
If maybe they're an early-stage company, they probably don't have a board yet. But I think in the nonprofit context, it's really important to know those things and to make sure there are people that they've built into their feedback process. Maybe it's just a monthly advisor call if they have, or maybe an advisor or a few advisors meet with them on a regular basis because the challenge with a nonprofit, is really thinking through your revenue source.
If your revenue is not coming from a product or a service, it's coming from the fundraising donation side of things. You've really got to build out some people in your network who can help you strategize about that and become good at that.
And I'll say just from personal experience, that's part of why I haven't taken on a leadership role in a nonprofit yet in my career because I feel like you have to feel called to the issue or the problem at hand. If you're going to be in a senior role in a not-for-profit organization, you've really got to have a drive and a passion for that cause.
And, number two, you've got to really understand the revenue source is very different in the nonprofit space. And you really have to think about okay, we're raising money for this cause rather than, hey, this product has this gross margin and this and that. It's a whole different mindset shift.
And maybe someday I will, but for right now I'm in the for-profit space. But I love supporting and being a mentor and advisor in the nonprofit space and supporting them as much as I can.
[00:24:47] Tommy Thomas: I would be remiss if I didn't ask you at least one question about your family business because it has been a part of the American automotive landscape for sure.
And I'll start, maybe we'll go into it from a risk perspective. I read a quote from this guy, Frederick Wilcox says progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base and keep your foot on first. A company didn't achieve the size that Cardone did without taking some risk along the way.
From your perspective, what's the biggest risk y'all took and lessons learned from it?
[00:25:16] Christin McClave: Yeah, lots and lots of risks had to be taken for sure.
The biggest risk that we took as a company and as a family was really moving production to Mexico. In the earlier 2000’s we started that process and we had to make a decision, when you're going and talking to banks and giving your strategy about financing for different projects.
We were the lone ranger in the space at the size we were and at our height we had about 6,000 employees. If you think about the sheer size of having to build production facilities or distribution facilities and spread that out outside of Philadelphia, we also had to think through our global competition.
And at that time, we might have had one competitor, smaller competitor that was manufacturing in the US but pretty much most of our competition was overseas in Asia, China, and Mexico. And so, anytime we would approach the bank and talk about these projects they would always wonder why we weren't in Mexico or China.
It was a huge risk when we took it. but over time, we really built a wonderful team in Mexico, and we were able to bring a lot of our cultural elements there. Our company was built on Christian values and the Mexican people are very religious and very devout people to their faith. God certainly planted that opportunity into our hands.
Tommy Thomas: Our guest next week will be Lindy Black. Most recently the Associate US Director at The Navigators, her leadership abilities were recognized early by The Navigators. She was the first female on the executive leadership team and has played a significant role in leader development at The Navigators. Throughout the conversation, you'll hear the thread of listening and learning. Here she is responding to my question about the first time she led a staff team.
[00:27:17] Lindy Black: My first team that I led had four men on it, and they were all older than me and they had more experience than me. So, the first tangible emotion that came to mind is I was nervous, and I felt insecure. Now, many years later, I read the best article on leading people who know more than you do.
What I was learning in that early first management was that I needed to lean into the expertise and actually the greater knowledge of my teammates. And in doing that, not only was I learning, but it gave me an opportunity to affirm and encourage their development in what they were bringing.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Family Business Magazine - Christin Cardone McClave
Philadelphia Business Journal - Christin McClave
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Christin McClave's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] David Stevens: I told my staff again and again that I expected them to fail. I said, if you're not failing some, you're not skating close enough to the edge, you're not taking enough risk.
The best way to find out whether something's gonna work is not to sit here and talk it to death meeting after meeting. We're not gonna bet the farm on it, but let's go try it. If it doesn't work, we'll try something else.
[00:00:22] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we began last week with Dr. David Stevens. If you missed that episode, Dr. Stevens enjoyed a distinguished career as a physician and senior administrator in a medical mission hospital in Kenya. He finished his career as the CEO for the Christian Medical and Dental Association.
As is the case with many of my guests, Dr. Stevens came to me on the strong recommendation of a previous guest, Dr. Sandra Gray – President Emeritus at Asbury University. Dr. Stevens was the Board Chair when Dr. Gray was the President.
Dr. Gray's suggestion was that I interview Dr. Stevens on board service and on board governance. In addition to the Asbury Board, Dr. Stevens served on the board of the Kenya Highlands Bible College GO International and the Christian Medical and Dental Association. He was the Founder and Board Chair of the National Embryo Donation Service and formed, trained, and chaired the first board of the Kanad Hospital in the United Arab Emirates.
Let's pick up the conversation where we left off last week.
[00:01:39] Tommy Thomas: I want to change over to board service here. I'm looking at the material that you've sent me, and it looks like either you’re currently serving or have served on seven boards. Tell me about your first board. How did it show up?
[00:01:52] David Stevens: The first place I really dealt with the board was here at CMDA. We had a great board when I got on as far as the people but had a board that was not functioning very well, and we had three-day board meetings. I had a couple of trustees, and I'd say this to them if they were here today, because they'd admit to it, that they spent half the time cracking jokes and banding back and forth during board meetings.
After they left, we actually had board meetings that were two days. Now they're down to a day. But I realized they were good people, but they didn't know how a board should work. As I got involved in that, just started digging into it, as I do with things, I'm involved with how boards run. And it's very difficult for a new CEO to come in and say to a board, I don't think you know your job very well, but I worked with the Chair of the Board, and we got Bob Andringa to come in and train the board. Things improved a little bit, but they weren't moving forward. So, I actually did the rough draft of the board policy manual and brought that to them, and they worked on that and we got that approved and then the institute of board training.
And so that's how I got interested in this topic.
The Board is the foundation of an organization. It's like the foundation of a house. You cannot build a solid structure unless you have a solid foundation, and the board has to know its role.
That's where I got my passion to help boards.
[00:03:17] David Stevens: And I've trained a lot of boards that need to take it to the next level. In fact, I've got a couple of trainings coming up in the next few months because it is just critical because things ultimately end up in problems if you don't deal with that foundational principle. So that's how I got interested in it and became a real student of it and a proponent of it to other organizations.
[00:03:44] Tommy Thomas: I want to go to the policy manual piece. When I interviewed the Chairman of the Board of InterVarsity and Alec Hill, their past president, they talked about what a great difference the policy manual had made to governance at InterVarsity. Maybe take us into that a little. It's so important that you have on paper and make the decisions of how you're gonna run and how you're gonna relate with your CEO.
[00:04:05] David Stevens: It's not just how I feel about this board meeting, but what are the processes in place? And, the board's job is to build fences around the CEO. And here are the resources you can have that's called the budget and staffing which comes out of the budget. And here's where we're going.
We have a strategic plan. We've all agreed this is where we're heading. And then here’s not what you can do and here's what you cannot do.
Often boards are like Mother May I. You come and ask us, and then we'll tell you whether you can do it. A good board says, “Here are the things you can't do”.
Here are the resources. Here's where we've decided to go, and then now to get the job done. And that frees up your CEO to be innovative. In fact, I remember when we were developing so quickly, I went to the board and said, I need a development fund and a budget line. By that I meant this, if some opportunity comes along and I need to get at it quickly, I need some funds available so that I can make a decision to move forward.
Then I'll bring it to you for approval. Even the point of having an executive committee meeting or whatever, but I want the ability to respond quickly when an opportunity arises. And at that time, we had three board meetings a year and things were changing very rapidly. So those types of processes.
And then how does the board govern itself? What is the expectation for the trustees? What can they do? What can't they do? And how are they evaluated? That's something many boards don't do to evaluate their trustees on a periodic basis. And so, you go through all these questions and put together a board policy manual.
[00:05:43] David Stevens: Ours was probably 25-30 pages long. There were a number of appendices with other policies. But the more complex your organization is, the more critical it is to have that kind of structure in place.
The Board Policy Manual is a dynamic document, and it can be changed at any time. And it should be changed as it is added to and subtracted as you learn and as you move forward.
But it's very important because your meetings run so much better and so many good things are happening in a short amount of time.
[00:06:17] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to strategic planning for a minute. From your perspective, what's the board's role in strategic planning?
[00:06:24] David Stevens: The way we approach that is that we came at it from the macro level coming down, you're taking another look at the mission. We're taking our vision statement, we're looking at our key result areas and then maybe even get down a little bit lower than that, depending on how far they get to want to go below that.
But then you get into your measurable objectives and all that comes back into the staff. So we've got a goal. Maybe it's a goal that we've put together. Maybe it's a goal that the board put together or maybe we've done it together, but in this key result area. Here's a major goal. And then here are measurable objectives and they're timed and who's gonna handle them and what departments are responsible and how they're gonna be evaluated.
And they're there's a qualitative and a quantitative attached to them. And then you come back and keep track of that. And so we had a strategic planning committee of the board and every board member. At every board meeting, I took in one of those key resolved areas. We get through all of them. We grew and had so many things going on. We would go into one of those key result areas of the five key result areas and do a deep dive into the strategic planning committee. I would also bring any new things that need to be added, and anything that needed to be changed. We set that objective too low. We set it too high.
We tried it, it didn't work. Let's delete it. It's a dynamic document. It's not something you do instead on the shelf, and we'll look at this in three years or five years. It's something that you're looking at in-depth three times a year. I'm looking at it with the people that are involved in it and then bringing that to the board and here's how we're coming.
[00:07:56] David Stevens: A CEO who’s willing to be measured and objectively evaluated. It made the board's job easy, knowing whether I was getting the job done or not, and also got them involved in what was going on and aware of what was happening. CMDA has grown to where there are over 50 different ministries and we're working on 320 campuses across the country.
We've got multiple mission outreaches; we've got public policy. We have so much more than they had when I started. Keeping track of that is very important unless you, and difficult to do, unless you have something planned out and it changes it three times a year. We say, hey, let's go a different direction or let's do this differently. And made it very dynamic and it was a great measuring stick.
[00:08:47] Tommy Thomas: When you think of the most effective board chair you've ever served under or watched, give me some words and phrases that describe him or her.
[00:08:55] David Stevens: Involved, supportive, knew their role. I've been in seen situations where the board chair essentially tells the CEO what they can do and what they can't do.
[00:09:06] David Stevens: The chair speaks for the board - interprets policy. If something comes up and it's not clear how it applies in this situation, they can interpret it. But they have no personal authority over the CEO and that is
very critical that the board acts as a whole, not as an individual.
It's someone that would contact me on the phone, Dave, how are you doing? How are you holding up? What's happening? How can I pray for you? Let me go and visit that person that you want to make a major donor visit with. I know them. Let me take you there. Those types of things involved speaking, coming when they're in town, coming in, encouraging staff, and expressing appreciation from the board. All those types of things make a huge difference. I had probably busier board chairs than many organizations have because all my Board Chairs were practicing physicians and extremely busy. And frankly, some of them were more involved than others. And it worked fine because I've been here longer than all of them put together, but our board chairs only lasted for two years. Many organizations have chairs that are there for a long period of time. We had a board chair-elect for one year, two years as board chair, and one year as immediate past, we call them presidents and medical organizations. So that was very confusing when people would call me President, but the President really was the Chair of the Board. And so I learned to adapt to that. But the best ones were the ones that stayed involved. And were especially an encouragement and a confidant with me as the CEO. Let's go to term limits. I see that so frequently in my work.
[00:10:44] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go to term limits. I see so frequently in my work - the impact of term limits or not having term limits that can have on an organization. I'd like to get your thoughts on that.
[00:10:50] David Stevens: I believe in term limits, and we have them for four-year terms. And then you can be renewed once, so a total of eight years, then you have to be off at least for one year before coming back on. And some have come back on. In fact, we've had chairs of the boards in our organization elected by our membership, which is different than most.
A couple of candidates have been board members and they're elected by the constituency. We just made sure, the board did that, they put up candidates. Either one could be the chair, no matter which one they pick. So a little different in a medical organization than in a lot of organizations.
But I think term limits are important. It enables you to deal with trustees that are not performing well. I've been on boards where there's a formal evaluation at the end of your term and decisions made on whether you'll continue. I remember serving as chair of the governance committee and we didn't do that with one person.
They couldn't keep the confidence that we had. I'd talk to them and the chair talked to them and they still, it was a difficult situation. The other thing that helps with dealing with that is using a grid for selecting your board. Here are the skills we need on the board, and here are the people we have, and each of them are rated according by themselves of what level of skills they have in fundraising or if it's at an educational institution, education, or you name it.
[00:12:14] David Stevens: And you may have 10 or 15 different things you want on the board. It makes it easy to say, our needs have changed. We need to add someone with certain skills, and we have too much of people with this skill, but not enough fees. And that helps you when you're dealing with term limits and not renewing them to do that without offending people.
But it's important to have the right skills. I remember I went on one board, and they had three judges on the board. Did you know judges aren't allowed to give legal opinions on boards? Because it's a conflict. Yeah, it's a conflict, something from a case might come up in front of them that had something to do with that.
And now they've given an opinion in a public record. It was obvious. We didn't need three judges. They had three doctors. This wasn't a medical organization. They really didn't need three doctors, but they didn't have somebody with a finance background or whatever. And so having a grid, and then you can look at this and say, okay, we're looking for new board members.
Here are the things we're rating low in. They have a low number. Here are the ones we're doing well in. Now here's the type of board member that we need. And then, all the other things that go in and make one of those selections. But it gives you direction and helps you with some board problems.
Having an active governance committee and a governance chair of that governance committee that can continually help your board to improve. We had board training at every board meeting. Every new member that came on the board received a packet of materials they needed to read before they came. Then the chair of the board and I trained them before the board meeting started.
When they came through that first board meeting, we appointed a mentor for them. It was usually the chair of the committee that we were going to serve, have them serve on, and we made sure their expertise was going to be used.
We had a welcoming process. We had them give their testimony and share that so people could get to know them better or use them as a speaker or something like that so they could become acquainted.
[00:14:03] David Stevens: Made sure to call upon them and ask for their opinions. Oftentimes, board members sit back for their first, two, or three years and just listen. We don't want that. We brought you here with your expertise. We're gonna draw you out every year. Here's a page. Are you still committed? Do you still have the time?
And all those types of things that everybody signs. And then the formal evaluation at the end of four years. And then ways to show appreciation for all the hard work they're doing and then have fun together. That was one of the reasons people love coming to our board meetings at CMDA. We had a spousal program for all the spouses when they came and fun things for them to do.
We had meals together. We looked for opportunities to go out. Do something fun together. If we had time, one of the most meaningful things is we would come in and the first night we were there, we'd have a nice dinner, maybe go out to eat if we were somewhere else in the country. And then we would have a prayer and share time, not about the organization, but about them as individuals.
And we'd sit in a circle with board members and their spouses if they were able to come. And it was a time of drawing closer together, being involved in each other's life, praying for kids that had gone off the deep end or health issues or work situations. And it was all done in extreme confidence.
And people loved coming to the board meetings. That was the thing they valued the most when we looked at it, especially for physicians, because oftentimes you can't even share things with people at your church, even your pastor in the community where you are. I had a bad case, I had something go wrong.
I'm being sued, you name it. And it was a very powerful time for us and a lot of loyalty to the organization from our trustees because of what they got out of those times together.
[00:16:05] Tommy Thomas: I'd like for you to respond to this quote. “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force people to think a little differently. That's what a good board does.”
[00:16:09] David Stevens:. I agree. And I can give you instances. We were looking at something and we had one board member, a young guy, just not long on the board.
He says, I just don't have peace about this. And we said, “share your concern”. We'd had a vote and are getting ready to vote and he was the only one. Obviously, it was going to be opposed.
And a wise chair said, “Let's just each of us commit to pray about this tonight, and let's come back tomorrow”. We came back tomorrow and the whole thing had changed. The whole thing had changed.
A pleasant irritant I think is a great term. He just had an insight that we had not thought about, and as we begin considering it, it was just, wow. Yeah, that would've been a bad decision. Yeah, the pleasant part is important.
I've had a couple of board experiences with just irritants, but not pleasant. In fact, I remember, and I have to say this to his face, one of the board members of my early days, he was a contrarian. When we voted to move, he voted not to move. He told me later, he says, oh, I thought the move was a great idea, but I just thought somebody should vote against it.
He would cause long discussions and waste time and all that kind of stuff. That's the other thing about a board - You need to have a timed agenda and keep things moving and not get bogged down, and give people an opportunity to speak, but at the same time, keep it moving along or board meetings can drag on and get very little accomplished.
And that's something we instituted, and it made a huge difference. The board, when I left, came in on Friday afternoon, met until Saturday noon, and we're talking about a big organization, lots of things to deal with, but they handled it in a very effective manner.
[00:17:54] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed a guy one time that had worked real closely with Dr. Ted Engstrom at World Vision. He said that Ted would often go into a Board Meeting with the minutes already written in his mind. He would have the agenda and what he wanted to do. Ted was known for his effective board meetings, and I guess maybe that's how he got that done.
[00:18:14] David Stevens: I had that role at CMDA because you got busy physicians coming in and, knowing where you're hoping to take it and then being subservient. I remember when I first started, we had so many changes. This big move going on, new programs, getting into public policy, something they had never done.
A week after I came on, I had brought the communications director from Samaritan's Purse who was in a prayer group with me. And I remember when I told him I was coming to CMDA, he said, David, remember me when you're coming into your kingdom. And I actually hired him before I started.
He got to Dallas before I did by a day or two. And he had some background in public policy. We had ethics statements that the ethics committee had put together on board improvement. They just stayed on the shelf and he came in and said, look, this just happened in the paper.
[00:19:03] David Stevens: Why don't we set down a news release? I said I've never sent out a news release. He says I have. And I said, okay. And we were having financial problems. He said, how much is it gonna cost? 500 bucks? And we sit there discussing where we could afford the $500 and I said, send it out. And the next day the Associated Press showed up at the door and we were in the LA Times, the New York Post, you name it, all over the country.
And they came in with a photographer, the whole bit. And I went to my first board meeting and told them what I had done. And they said, we had talked about that before, but we thought we'd upset members and they would quit. There are some people that don't agree with our statements on some of these issues.
I said, look at me. I said it just like that.
Either you stand for something, or you stand for nothing. And for every member we lose because they don't agree with one of our ethical statements, we'll gain three. And that's what happened.
And there was this great desire for our members to say we need a voice in what's going on in this country.
[00:19:56] David Stevens: Physician-assisted suicide was just happening. And then there was the embryonic stem cell research course, the abortion issue, you name it. It's one of the reasons we need this new building. I'm sitting in a studio right now, the television studio next door because we had such an impact on news, not only in this country but literally around the world, speaking out on these issues.
And those types of things make a difference and really gravitated a lot of people into membership and being part of the organization and supporting it.
[00:20:30] Tommy Thomas: Dr. Sandra Gray said when I interviewed her, she said that she didn't think that boards paid enough attention to risk management. What's your perspective on the board's involvement in risk management?
[00:20:37] David Stevens: That's an interesting question. Something that comes along with that is failing.
And I told my staff again and again that I expected them to fail. I said, if you're not failing some, you're not skating close enough to the edge, you're not taking enough risk.
The best way to find out whether something's gonna work is not to sit here and talk it to death meeting after meeting. We're not gonna bet the farm on it, but let's go try it. If it doesn't work, we'll try something else.
That's how I encourage them to take risks and try something new.
[00:21:11] David Stevens: And that's my personality as well. My wife laughs and says, David, all somebody has to do is to tell you something's impossible and you want to go try to do it. And there's some truth in that. At the same time, I'm not reckless. I'm not betting the whole organization on it, but the way you grow is by taking risk.
So, the board needs to be aware. They need to understand what you're doing. You need to get their input on what you're doing and be willing to be subservient. The point I was making before I got off on all the public policy stuff was that after I started moving so many different things, I remember a word going back to me that some of the board members said something in the derogative part.
We tried to create, and they named a leader that he didn't have a lot of respect for in the Christian world. And, he's gonna be too big and too much because they had never had a CEO like me. The previous ones had all been seminary trained. I was the first physician in that role. And at the next board meeting, I just said very frankly, I said, you guys are in charge.
I am subservient to you. You tell me not to do something, I won't do it. If you tell me to do something, I'll do it. But my job is to move this organization forward and we're gonna have a different type of organization than you're used to because of that. And so, I made sure they knew the risk situations that we were dealing with, but I didn't hesitate to tell them, yes, we're going to do some things.
And that one situation I gave you, I did one of them, and then I got permission afterward with the public policy.
[00:22:43] Tommy Thomas: Let’s close out with a bit of a counseling session. Say you get a call next week from somebody who's been asked to be on a nonprofit board. They've never served on a nonprofit board before. What kind of counsel are you giving them, or what kind of questions are you telling them they need to be sure that they have answered?
[00:22:56] David Stevens: I'd ask them first if they really believe in the mission of the organization that they're a part of. Secondly, I'd ask them, what kind of briefing materials have they given you?
- Do they have a board policy manual?
- Do they have a strategic plan? Have you seen what this is?
- Have you counted the cost?
- Do you know how much time is going to be required?
- Do you understand that you'll need to be financially supporting this organization at a significant level based on your means?
- Are you willing to make a difference and get into this for the long term?
Make sure you're not going into this for the wrong reason. It'll be great fellowship. I know these people, or it'll look good on my resume that I serve on this board. This is a serious matter that you're getting into and it's a high level of responsibility. And it's the God-ordained group that's really the foundation of this organization.
Your commitment needs to be there, and you need to be all in when you get in. And then if they didn't have a background, as you said, in a board, I would ask, are they giving you orientation materials and information on what it means to be a board member? What the expectations are, what good board members do, and all that type of thing.
[00:24:04] David Stevens: And if they didn't have them, I would say, let me share some things with you because I got all that stuff. Here are the roles of the boards, the 8-10 things that they're responsible for, including praying faithfully for this board and volunteering and helping and giving and all the other things as well as the specific governance activities.
I interviewed all the board members when I was chair of the governance committee at Asbury for seventeen years. And those are the type of things I ask because sometimes people get into situations for all reasons, and I don't want them to be disappointed.
And I don't want us to be disappointed without laying this out. And you may not know how to do this, but we're going to teach you and you'll have ongoing training, not just in governance, but things you need to know because you're always needing to learn more as you serve as a trustee. These are new situations you're facing.
New things that you need to become aware of and understand so you can make good decisions. And so, a good board is always training themselves up to the next level as well as continuing to remind themselves of good governance principles.
#########################
I hope you've enjoyed these two conversations with David Stevens. As is often the case, we barely scratched the surface of the areas we have planned to discuss. I imagine that David will make another appearance in the coming year.
Our guest next week will be Christin McClave. I wanted Christin as a guest, but because of the breadth of experience she has with manufacturing, e-commerce industries, and the healthcare sectors.
She has worked internally at both publicly traded and privately held companies and was a shareholder and a third-generation family business. I believe that people who have led successfully in the private sector have a lot to offer a nonprofit leader. Christin is no exception.
I had just asked her to imagine that she was on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank. What questions would she need answers to before opening her checkbook?
[00:26:10] Christin McClave: I think first of all I would really want to understand the leader's background. The team, the person, on Shark Tank, they usually have one other person standing with them. And the Sharks are very interested in where they came from, what their experiences are, how the two or the three of them got together, and the real dynamic of them working together, and what skills maybe one brings to the table, the other one fills in the gaps. I'd like to really understand that.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
David Stevens’ LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] David Stevens: For the next year and a half, I was in Somalia during Black Hawk Down leading medical teams. Only place I've done medical work or had ten guys with AK 47’s guarding our team all the time.
We saw 45,000 outpatients in the midst of famine and disease and war, and then into the Sudan epidemic, relapsing fever, living in tents. Our camp got overrun. The village where we were by another tribe. We had our team held hostage.
[00:00:26] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Dr. David Stevens. Dr. Stevens has enjoyed a distinguished career in medical missions in Kenya before making the transition to nonprofit leadership. First with Samaritan's Purse, and then as CEO of the Christian Medical and Dental Association. For the past 30 years, I've made my living, helping nonprofit organizations find senior leaders.
JobfitMatters has worked with over 300 nonprofits in finding their CEO, the executive director, headmaster or whatever they call the top leadership role. One thing I learned over the years is that you can get a good picture of how a person leads by listening to the stories of their lives. The narrative of a person's life is powerful.
As you listen to this conversation with Dr. Stevens, imagine that you're on a search committee, looking for the next CEO for your nonprofit. My hunch is that you would leave this podcast knowing what the Office of the President or Executive Director would look like under Dr. Steven's leadership.
Let's pick up the conversation now. Before we go too deep into your professional career, take us back to your childhood. I’m always curious about people got their start.
[00:01:48] David Stevens: Mine was a little bit unusual. My father was a pastor for a couple of years and then went into full-time evangelism back in the early 50s. So, for a couple of years of my life, we were living in a house trailer, parked at the little churches in the country where he was preaching revivals before we settled in Wilmore, Kentucky where my mom and dad had both gone to school. But even after that, during the summer, we used to travel with him and to camp meetings all across the United States.
So it was a little different childhood than most kids have. It was wonderful. How many kids in the 50s, early 60s would go to all kinds of historical spots that were in the area between meetings and have that much concentrated time with their parents? And I was in a children's program all summer long and different camp meetings.
It was a wonderful time and a time when we could be together with dad, because he's on the road a lot during the year.
[00:02:40] Tommy Thomas: What is the most memorable or valuable lesson you learned from your parents?
David Stevens: Their love for God and their love for people. And I just saw that some of the memories that I treasure are sitting in a camp meeting and watching people go forward to the old-fashioned altar and pray.
In fact, it was in one of those camp meetings where dad was preaching in Pennsylvania when I was eight, that I went down a sawdust trail to a two by four altar and got on my knees and accepted Christ, realizing it wasn't enough. My dad was the evangelist. I needed a personal relationship with Christ.
So, it really impacted my life and the memories that we treasure. Not just me, but my brother and sister as well.
[00:03:18] Tommy Thomas: Y'all traveled the United States a bit. Looking back, what was your favorite place?
[00:03:21] David Stevens: Oh boy, that's a hard question because some of it's a blur.
We went back to camp meetings more than once and I did this until I started high school. It was quite a few years and it was just a special time because we got to be with dad. He'd be gone for a week, 10 days home for a few days between meetings and then off again. And we always treasure those times with mom and dad. And mom was teaching school full-time and had three kids.
I don't know how she did it, but I treasure those memories. Just the fun things we did. Dad was a history major, and I remember one time we were going down the road and he saw a sign that there was a grave for one of the presidents and he pulled off with the house trailer behind us into the cemetery.
And we're sitting there and he looks down and there's a building and somebody's over there and he walks over and starts talking to him. He was gregarious and loved people, and a few minutes later he motions us all to come over. It was the crematorium. We got a tour of the crematorium. I can still remember the bones in the boxes as we went in.
You'd never do that in this day and time, but my dad made friends quickly.
[00:04:32] Tommy Thomas: What is something that people are always surprised to find out about you?
[00:04:35] David Stevens: That's a good question. I love to sing and I’ve been in a number of choirs that goes clear back to my high school days and some of my hobbies people are surprised at.
I love to fly fish for trout. We've got great trout fishing here. And then I also love to flower garden. And when you work with people as you have Tommy, it's never done. And I like to do house projects and things like that and finished off part of our house after we moved in.
But I love doing things with my hands because, but when you're done, it's done. It's finished. It's, it's not a project in process forever like it is as you're dealing with.
[00:05:14] Tommy Thomas: I tell people that my work doesn't have an immediate impact. And so I'm like you, I love to cut grass because I can see what's ahead of me. I can see what's behind me and I can know what I'm through.
[00:05:29] Tommy Thomas: Take me into high school. Did y'all settle down some in high school?
[00:05:32] David Stevens: I had an interesting high school experience, Tommy, because my sister and my brother and I all went off to boarding school here in the United States. I went to Hampton Dubose Academy down in Florida. It was a Christian boarding school too, of Billy Graham's. His daughters went there. The boys didn't.
[00:05:47] David Stevens: Jack Wertzen and other names that people would know. It was a class of, the school had about 150 students. It was a great experience. I ended up being much more mature than other students when I got to college because I lived away from home, actually came home and lived at home for college and went to Asbury.
But everybody had to do everything. Everybody had to participate in every sport. Everybody was in choir, everybody did public speaking. Every year we had a competition where you had to memorize a speech, give it in front of the whole student body, and be judged on it. And you look back on those things and we, all of us had worksheet jobs.
My wife still says I can cut vegetables better than she can because I used to cut vegetables for 150 kids when I was on kitchen duty or washing dishes or waiting tables. And then we just had tremendous spiritual ministry. We had chapel in the morning, vespers at night, every day, services three times on Sunday during the snowbird season and some top-notch evangelists and speakers from all over the country for that.
I learned much more than just getting a good education. But that's where I fell in love with science and Mr. Gladfelder, my science teacher. God used that during my last year of high school to call me into medical missions. My dad, when I was a freshman, he was in evangelism as I mentioned, but in the mid-60s he went on a short-term mission team, which was pretty unusual back then and I saw the impact of that on people's lives and started spending half his time with an organization that he started called Now Go International to take people overseas.
And he took me as a freshman in high school down to Haiti. And while I was there, I started painting, I think somebody's house, and probably not very well, but there was a building down at the end of the compound. And people lined up around and went down. There was a nurse diagnosing and treating people lined up around the building.
I didn’t have a chance to talk to her, but every once in a while, I saw her get up and go in the other room. And one time she left the door cracked in there. She was down on her knees praying with someone. And God used that experience and my love for science to call me into medical missions as a senior in high school.
Back in those days you were supposed to know what you were going to major in when you got to college, which is pretty unusual in this day and time. So what was Asbury like, and then what was how was medical school different? Asbury was wonderful. I lived at home, that's where I met my wife, Jody, my junior year, in her freshman year.
My freshman year is probably the most memorable in one way. And that is, that was 1970, the Asbury revival. We've been talking the last few weeks about what's been going on there now, and I was sitting up in the balcony in the freshman section and they just had a testimony service where students shared and God just came into that place and it was palpable.
You could feel it and that didn't finish for over a week. And I was already committed to medical missions, talking about it. And people knew what I was planning to do. But it was that morning when I went down to the altar that I just completely surrendered my heart to the Lord.
I loved him, but I was still driving the car of my life and I took him everywhere I went. But that day, I wanted Him to drive. And I still remember that commitment. It's been very fresh in the last few weeks as I've heard about what's going on up there. All three of my kids went there.
I was involved in the school and the board. Yeah, a lot of great memories of those years there.
[00:09:09] Tommy Thomas: Was medical school hard for you or did you just fall into it?
[00:09:10] David Stevens: Medical school's hard for everyone. In fact, I deal with a lot, ahead of working with medical students across the country.
A lot of people, pre-meds and stuff, say, how do you get into medical school? Because it's hard.
I say the way you get into medical school is you go to the library when everybody else goes to the ballgame. That's how you get into medical school. It's not the smartest ones. Oftentimes it's the ones that are most determined and have the discipline to do it.
And medical school, is that on steroids? I remember in my biochemistry course we covered in the first two weeks what I'd learned the year before, and my biochemistry class was taught by a former teacher in a medical school here at Asbury. So it's tough. You're very focused. You're realizing that you're going to have people's lives in your hand.
You get into your clinical years, and it's not only days, but you're working nights too. You're up all day. Up all night and up all the next day taking care of patients. That's not as common anymore. But that was the way back in those days. And I was determined to learn as much as possible. Because during college, after my junior year, I went and spent two months in Kenya.
My dad knew Dr. Ernie Stuart, the founder of Tenwek Hospital, and he said, out of all of the missionary doctors, I know he's the finest. And I went and spent two months with him and lived in his house and followed him around like a puppy. And he taught me how to pass instruments to him in surgery. And I delivered my first baby as a college student.
Came home and actually went to the mission and got a preliminary appointment with World Gospel Mission to head overseas as soon as we finished our training, a preliminary appointment. We knew where we were going to medical school. And after my third year, went back for two months beginning my fourth year.
Took my wife Jodi, who had never been there. And we were essentially missionaries that summer. And I got so far ahead of other medical students by the time I went to residency because they had handed me an award with 40 patients on it that I was the doctor, even though I was just in my fourth year of medical school.
They were so short-staffed, and I had even learned how to do C-sections and take care of stuff that most medical students never got to do, even back in that time and especially now. So that helped me focus. I always believe that you have to throw wood on the fire of your call, and you do that, especially with long years of training by going back.
When I went back again, during my last year of residency, so I graduated medical school and worked hard, graduated in the top 5% of my class, and then started residency. And that was a big decision. I loved surgery. I didn't particularly like some of the surgeons I had to work with in medical school.
Some of them, you'd turn around and walk down another hallway if you saw them coming. They were so rough and tough. But I ended up going to a family practice residency because I was going to have to do everything you have to do. Every kind of medicine on the mission field, there's nobody to refer to. And so I went to a program in Columbus, Georgia which had 40 residents.
About half of them were Christians, evangelical Christians, which was wonderful. One of our faculty attracted them there. It was just a great school. We were the only residents in a tertiary care hospital, 500-bed hospital, and did everything, ran the burn units, the ICU, everything.
It was great training. I knew I was not going to have an office practice. I didn't have to take care of really sick people. And that was the residency I was looking for. So those were a great three years, and we had our first two children there and then headed off to the mission field.
[00:12:28] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about the first time that you actually had a medical staff reporting to you?
[00:12:45] David Stevens: It's interesting. I was chief resident of those 40 residents. During my third year, one of them was in charge. It turned out to be a lot more complicated than I thought it was going to be about halfway through the year.
I came into work on Monday morning and everything was in a fever, and here they had brought in a for-profit administration for this city hospital. And they had fired the Director of the Family Practice Program. Now, this is, in my opinion, one of the best, if not the best family practice program in the southeast and maybe in the United States.
Back then, it was just fabulous, and residents were starting to get on the phone, calling and looking for other residencies they could go to. They were going to leave and the whole thing was just going to fall apart. And so, I had a quick prayer and called the residents together and said we can fight this.
Back in those days, if they didn't like you, they fired you. Even as a resident – they just throw you out and because you're a paid resident. So I wrote a letter to all the attendings in the community, of course, didn't sign it, in case it fell under the wrong hands, explaining what was happening and letting them know if something didn't change, they were going to have to be taking care of all of their patients at night because there'd be no residents in the hospital to do it.
And then I contacted the paper and made sure they didn't use my name, so I didn't get fired. And that happened on Monday. Sent the residents out, each one to a number of the local attending physicians that had patients in the hospital and hand delivered the letters to them. Friday, they had a meeting called with the doctors, and everybody was in a fur.
And the doctors said, listen, if you don't change that decision Monday, there'll be no patients in this hospital. Now I didn't plan that. I didn't expect that, but that made a huge difference. And that was where I had leadership, that was one of those pivotal points in a leadership situation where you're in a crisis and then jumped in very quickly.
When I got to the hospital, we did language school. Within my first year Dr. Stewart asked me to be the medical superintendent, so that meant I was in charge of all the medical staff in the hospital. He was the CEO, but I had the direct supervision and we had at that time probably 300 staff. We had a national administrator, but I dealt with all the medical issues and problems like that.
So, I jumped in pretty quickly and found out that I had skills and abilities, and interests that I really didn't know I’d have in the whole area of leadership and administration.
[00:15:06] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back over the life of your career - what was the most ambitious project you've ever tackled?
[00:15:11] David Stevens: I've had a lot of them, but I think the biggest one was actually the first one at Tenwek. When we arrived, I was the third physician. We only had six trained nurses. Five of them were missionaries. Everybody else were just local people. We had trained to clean floors or pass medicines out, and half the patients in the hospital were there with preventable diseases and half the deaths were from preventable diseases.
The biggest killer in Africa is the water is not clean.
Measles, tetanus, whooping cough - things that we immunize for. The biggest killer in Africa is the water is not clean. They drink it, get diarrhea, and vomiting. Kids come in severely dehydrated. We were averaging 180% occupancy for the year and there were two to three patients in a bed, and every patient had a family member staying with them since we didn't have good nursing staff to help take care of them.
We had over 200 patients and it was challenging. After about a year and a half, Dr. Stewart turned to me and said, David, one of our nurses that was on furlough, she has come back, and she wants to do something in community health. Can you help her start a community health outreach?
We sat down and started thinking about this. Our catchment area at that time was 300,000 people and a very rural area,
50 miles from the nearest paved road. And I thought there are no billboards, there's no radio, there are no magazines. The only way to reach these people is door-to-door.
[00:16:32] David Stevens: How do you get that? You couldn't hire enough people or have enough money to have them go out and do the teaching. So we essentially went out in the community and mobilized them to start a community health committee in a village. And we go out and train this group and we used inductive training where you ask questions and help them find the answers.
[00:16:53] David Stevens: And after we got them trained, then we asked them to pick seven people from their community who would give three half days a week to go teach in their community.
And we called them Community Health Helpers because workers get paid, you aren't gonna get paid.
And so we built that program and at the time I left in 1991, we had already taught 400,000 people 25 different interventions that they could teach about, treating the 10 most common diseases and sharing the gospel.
We had as many as 10,000 people a year come to Christ through this door-to-door evangelism. I used to tell the health helpers, I said, the best place to share the gospel is when you're helping somebody dig their latrine.
And they ask you, why in the world are you doing this? Because you've got a farm, you're busy, you've got things you need to do, and you shared the love of Christ. That's a great place to introduce people to Jesus. And that program grew. I applied a bunch of motivational techniques. A good book on that was In Search of Excellence, looking at the top 10 companies in the United States, how they motivated their people, and what I did, selling books door-to-door when I was in college for two summers with Southwestern Family Bibles and native topical references. I still have on the wall in my office, my Gold Award for working 75 hours a week, knocking on doors, dogs chasing you.
And I thought, how did they motivate me as a medical student, as a college student when I didn't even receive a salary? I was working on commission to work as hard as I did, and I was one of the Top 20 salesmen in the country. God never wastes anything. And he took that and we were motivated by giving a sense of identity to the people.
People knew who they were and what they were doing, and thought it was important. Secondly, by great communication, not just up and down, but vertically and horizontally, among groups and creating a non-threatening comparison. We printed a newspaper, mimeographed it off, and everybody's work was in there and nobody said anything about them, but they could tell if you were working, or you weren't working and how your committee was doing compared to other committees.
People always wanted to know how they fit in, competitions where individuals could win or people would meet a certain level and get rewards, then creating a sense of family. And it was extremely successful. Within three years we had a USAID grant. The Ambassador was visiting. By the time I left, we'd had people from 24 different countries come in and see that program.
And then we went to the next step and started with community development, which impacted the men versus just impacting women and children and teaching them how to have income because there was less and less land for people and they didn't have enough. They could support their families, men go to the city, try to get a job, end up in Islam, frequent a prostitute, bring AIDS home, give it to their wife.
These were medical issues all with the fact that how do you make money and support your family when you only have five or six acres of land? So how do you increase milk production and egg production and clean water and better agriculture and all sorts of stuff that I'd never done but I just dived in and learned.
So that was a huge project that I was doing while still working full-time in the hospital in the last four or five years that I was at Tenwek, I was the Acting CEO as well, running the whole place. So a very busy time, but yeah, changed a lot of lives and that's still going on today. I was just back in June.
It's now up to 1.5 million people and their 1,500 health helpers in the country. Doing this type of thing still, 25-30 years later.
[00:20:21] Tommy Thomas: How did you go from that to your most recent assignment at Christian Medical and Dental Associations?
[00:20:26] David Stevens: We thought we were going to be missionaries the rest of our life.
During my time there Dr. Stewart got colon cancer and went home. He put me in charge of the hospital. And so many of the other issues that need to be dealt with was, we need electricity. We had electricity 11 hours a day, people died all the time for lack of electricity. And it took a quarter of the budget just to run a diesel generator, 11 hours a day.
So we built a hydroelectric project on the river, and that's God's story of how He brought in the experts we needed and we did it ourselves. And it was like building the pyramids. We broke all the gravel for a huge dam by hand because the roads were so bad we couldn't even get trucks in.
And then we started a nursing school. So we'd have nurses and took the hospital up to 300 beds and buildings and new outpatients, new business offices, all sorts of things that got involved in during the last four or five years that I was there and leadership. And we thought we'd be there for the rest of our lives.
And then God, just that last year, I have had a growing realization that God had something else in hand and I didn't want to hear it. We came home on deputation in 1989 and I thought, you've just been working too hard managing all this stuff and still seeing patients. You're a little burned out. You'll get over it and it wouldn't go away.
And finally, I was going down to North Carolina to speak and I thought, we had a relationship with Samaritan’s Purse. I knew Franklin and they had helped us with visiting doctors to help for a month. And I thought, what can God bring? Maybe God wants you to take what you've done at Tenwek and help other mission hospitals.
So I dropped by and I told Jodi if I get in there and the Head of Rural Medical Mission, their medical arm and Franklin are in the same room, I'm going to bring this up. And I had been there five minutes and I was in the room with him, and I said would you have an interest?
Franklin was very enthusiastic, and I was backing up by saying after the next term, that type of thing, didn't give him any kind of answer. Before I left, he called me, he said, I want you to be the head of World Medical Missions, which is their medical arm working with Mission Hospitals around the world.
And I said, I'm back due back in Kenya in two days. I'll let you know something by Christmas. This was June. And it got close to Christmas. We hadn't even prayed about it. In December, I started to pray. I just couldn't get any direction and wrote a letter to Franklin and said, no, I'm not coming.
[00:22:44] And Dr. Stewart had medical problems, colon cancer, I was the next leader already in that leadership position. Probably had the two worst weeks of my life. Because I knew I hadn't waited on the Lord. And Molly had turned to Jodi and said, it's too late. I just got too busy.
I should have taken more time. We should have taken more time praying about this. And I said, the only thing that could happen is Franklin just writes me a note and says, the job's here whenever you want to come. Two weeks later I got a letter - job's here whenever you want to come. We went back to our knees, prayed for a month, and realized that's what God wanted us to do.
So, I came to World Medical Missions. The first year I was flying all over the world, working with mission hospitals, starting their equipment refurbishment ministry, getting good used equipment from the states, converting it, refurbishing it, and sending it to mission hospitals. At the end of that year, Franklin realized, ah, I've got a doctor on staff.
Things broke out in Somalia. Things were going on in the Balkans with the wars. And he came and talked to me and said, David, could we do medical relief? And for the next year and a half, I was in Somalia during Black Hawk Down leading medical teams. The only place I've done medical work or had ten guys with AK-47s guarding our team all the time.
We saw 45,000 outpatients in the midst of famine and disease and war, and then into Sudan epidemic, relapsing fever, living in tents. Our camp got overrun. The village where we were by another tribe. We had our team held hostage, back during my cowboy days, I called them. And then we were into Rwanda during the genocide.
And about that time, CMDA came looking for me. And I had realized by that time that God had brought me, I knew to Samaritan’s Purse, but he had something else in store. So we'd already been praying about that. And I remember when I got the letter on my desk going home, showed it to my wife and said, this isn't me.
I'm a missionary. And she was convinced from day one that's what God had for my life. And, long story short, even the night before we went for the interview I said we're going to Dallas because I'm serious about this job. We're going to get to see your sister and her husband, go out to eat tomorrow night.
We're really going five days later. We prayed through and knew that's where God wanted us to come. And so that was 1994 and for 25 years I was the CEO of CMDA.
[00:25:03] Tommy Thomas: Your colleague, Jamie Campbell, told me to make sure you told the story of how you got the headquarters moved from Texas to Bristol Tennessee / Virginia.
That was crazy. We had about 6,000 square feet. CMDA was struggling financially. It was a 60-something year-old organization at that point. And things not going very well. In fact, that year, my first year, was the hardest year of my life in all probability. We had a large short-term medical mission ministry with over 50 teams a year.
And the person heading that, I'll get into the details, but broke it off secretly and started getting the money out of the organization, telling people to cancel their trips and send it to his new organization. It was just a mess. And that, that happened over that year. But I got there and about two weeks later was coming up here to Bristol, where I am speaking from Tennessee to go do a speaking engagement that I had already booked when I left Samaritan’s Purse.
And I got to know a family when I was at Samaritan’s Purse that had helped us with medicines and supplies, they had this thing called general injectables and vaccines. And I had heard they had sold that company and they had bought a pharmaceutical company here in Bristol. I had some time and I thought I'm going to go see if I can find Joe, one of the younger brothers I had taken to Africa with me to Kenya in Tanzania.
They had just started out, bought a plant and had 200,000 square feet of manufacturing, 200,000 square feet of office space. And they're showing me around the building. I only had about 40 staff just starting out. And I made the offhand comment, who knows what God's gonna do with you guys?
Look at all this room. We just put a desk in the hallway for an assistant because we're just out of room. I'm just making small talk. A few minutes later they were down in his office, says, why don't you move up here to Bristol and I'll give you a floor, which was 24,000 square feet. And I thought I can't go back.
I hadn’t even met the board yet. The search committee had made the decision and I hadn't met the board, had a board meeting and I'm going to go tell them I'm going to move to Bristol - with a startup pharmaceutical company. Are you nuts? So, I didn't say anything. We had our board meeting about a month later.
I didn't even say anything about it. And they wanted to help short-term mission groups. So they contacted us and I couldn't go. So I sent my COO and before he left, I said, you know what? I need to tell you something in case it comes up. I don't think they were serious, but just in case, I was up speaking in Oklahoma I believe, and I got a call and he says, we're up here trying to figure out which floor would work.
The board had all the right questions. Are they trying to get to our members to sell their medications? What if they fail and we've moved up there? What if they're successful and sell it to some other company? All those things. So I came back and talked to President John Gregory and John says, Dave, I just feel like if you're in here God’s just gonna bless you.
It'll flow through to us. Here's the deal. We have to charge you a little bit because we have loans on the building. So we'll charge you $1,200 a month for your 24,000 square feet. But we'll handle all the utility costs and all the cleaning and your renovations that need to be done. And if we'll give you that for 20 years in a fixed contract and if we sell the company, it'll be binding on them. How's that sound?
I go, okay. It's kinda hard to turn down, huh? Yeah. And all of a sudden, we took our overhead almost to zero, except for salaries. We encouraged our staff to move. We made that decision in January. We moved in August of that year and we encouraged them to come up here, paid their way. Nobody moved.
Tommy, nobody. I was the oldest employee at CMDA when we got up here, but God had planned that out. You’re going to talk about some of the things with staffing and top. My best friend who I'd worked with at Samaritan’s Purse as an OBGYN doc. I had encouraged him to come on and he came on just after we made that decision, he moved here, started hiring, sending down for training, and went off seamlessly. We decreased the cost of our salaries because it was less costly to operate here, and things just exploded and over. That was 1995. By 2002, we had outgrown our space and we're getting ready to build the building that I'm setting in now.
[00:29:02] David Stevens: 54,000 square feet of space. That was a God thing. Yeah. Brave on your part, but obviously the hand of the Lord on the other side. It's interesting. He said, God will bless us. They were called King Pharmaceuticals. It's been sold.
They were the fastest company in the history of the United States to go from startup to being listed on the S&P 500. The head was a pharmacist, and his brother was in marketing, but God just blessed them. They were making generics and realized that's hard work.
It's high volume. They started buying up drugs that still had patent life and by God's grace picked up two or three drugs that got unbelievable new indications. Every diabetic in the country should take this hypertensive they had bought, and they just got great in, these guys that started with a little bit of money and between the two of them were billionaires when they sold it.
[00:30:07] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you about board service, but before we go there, there is a question that I always enjoy asking people, what's the hardest decision you’ve had to make as a leader?
[00:30:09] David Stevens: Leaving Tenwek was one. That's a big struggle. When I was CEO, I put one of my employees on trial and he ended up in prison. And that was a very difficult decision to make in developing countries like we were in Kenya and especially in the culture we're in, the pressure put on young men, it's just tremendous. If they've got a job, they've got to help with school fees, with their extended family.
You can't get married till you have a dowry. The hormones are raging and you can't, you don't have enough money. And so the pressure to steal or embezzle is just huge. And this fellow who had trained, worked in our business office, had formal training. Had stolen 25 years’ worth of salary.
We had paper receipts, no computerization at that point, and he put a piece of cardboard between the two copies, write out the receipt, give it to the patient, put carbon paper on a piece of paper. We were taught, to write a different money, a different amount, and we'd had problems before Ernie was gone. And I thought, you know what, I sensed with the staff that had done this is, still as much as you can if you get fired, go home and enjoy it.
And so there had never been any long-term consequences besides getting fired. I took him, took the situation to the police, and they didn't have a vehicle to go out and get the evidence, so I had to send out one of our vehicles and our chaplain went with them and took them to people we thought this had happened too, and finally found 13 receipts that didn't match, and I had to go to court. This is, to get the impression of what this is like, being in the South and being African-American in the 1850s. Here you're white and the whole court's African and you're bringing witness against someone.
[00:31:46] David Stevens: And then the judge wouldn't be there. And all the time was going down and the case wouldn't happen, and asbusy as I was, finally they put him in prison for 13 months, which I thought was light. There was a lot of criticism from the staff. He got married, his wife had just had a baby.
Dr. Stevens, you're a missionary, you just put him in prison. But I just felt and prayed a lot about it that I need to make an example to stop this. I had a responsibility for the situation in the hospital, and God redeems everything. Thirteen months later, I was walking, going down the road, coming somewhere towards the hospital.
I saw him walk along the road and I stopped him, call him John, picked John up and said, John, how are you doing? I'm sorry I couldn't visit you in prison, but you were far away from where we are. I said, how are you doing? He said, Dr. Stevens, I was ready to kill myself when I got in prison. You can't imagine how bad it was. But he said, I was just about to do that.
And there was a pastor that came in the prison. When I was hired, I told y'all I was a Christian, but I wasn't. And that pastor led me to Christ. And for the last 10 months that I was there, I was going with him and sharing the gospel to other prisoners in the prison.
[00:32:55] David Stevens: I said what are you doing now? I'm trying to find a job. You can't find a job after you've been in prison. I said, John, I can't put you back in the business office. I think you understand that cause of the temptation, but I'll hire you back at Tenwek. He mowed grass. He had training in finances, and he was mowing grass with a machete.
And every day at break, when everybody had tea at 10 o'clock as they do in Kenya, he'd go up to the hospital and witness on the wards. Finally, I had him speak to the whole staff. I'll never forget, he stood up and said I stole what Dr. Stevens said I stole and I deserved to go into prison, and I know some of you are stealing, and I'm going thinking, who are they?
And he gave this beautiful testimony. About a year later I gave him a recommendation and got him a job in finance, in another place. God redeemed that.
But that was a very difficult decision. You're working cross-cultural, you're a missionary, and yet you're an administrator. You're in charge. You have the responsibility. It was a very tough time, but God did his work all the same.
[00:33:55] Tommy Thomas: Next week, we will continue this conversation with Dr. Stevens. We will be exploring his experience and passion for board service and governance.
[00:34:08] David Stevens: Boards are the foundation of an organization. It's like the foundation of a house. You cannot build a solid structure unless you have a solid foundation.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
David Stevens’ LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Tommy Thomas: We're picking up today from last week's conversation with Bev Godby and Bill Hendricks of The Giftedness Center in Dallas. We were talking about the power of story and one's life, and in particular, what a manager can see when an employee is working within their area of giftedness.
Bill and Bev had just responded to this quote from Warren Bennis.
“Too many companies believe people are interchangeable. Truly gifted peopl never are. They have unique talents. Such people cannot be forced into roles they're not suited for, nor should they be. Effective leaders allow great people to do the work they were born to do.”
We're picking up when I asked them to respond to this quote from Ben Zander, the Conductor of the Boston Philharmonic.
Here's kind of another spin on that, and this comes from Ben Zander, the Conductor of the Boston Philharmonic.
“The conductor doesn't make a sound. The conductor's power depends on his ability to make other people powerful.”
So how does this play into this thing called giftedness?
[00:01:09] Bill Hendricks: It's a beautiful metaphor because most of the work in the world, certainly in our culture, is not actually done by individuals. It's done by teams of people working in concert and alignment together. But each person is unique, and they bring different strengths. Just like all the instruments in an orchestra have different sounds and different roles in making music.
And what leaders need to do is to get all of those players, all of those performers, all of those instruments as if it were all the giftedness aligned. Which means putting first all of the right people in the right seats. One of the biggest problems in our culture is we get too many people because they don't know and nobody's checked out what their giftedness is. They're doing things they weren't born to do.
They're like tools that are being used for purposes, different from what they were designed to do. You’ve got hammers trying to chop wood. You've got screwdrivers trying to drive nails. You've got saws trying to drill screw holes. And so we wonder why people are frustrated in their work.
We wonder why work isn't done as well as it could be. So you gotta get the person in the right slot for them, as it were. But you've also gotta get all of those tools aligned around the common vision and purpose and strategy. And this is one of the great needs for good leadership. Good leaders have to pay attention to what their performers - to stick with the concert metaphor - not only are capable of doing but how to get the best out of them at the right time in the composition as it were.
And if you think about every person as having that music in them, the tragedy is that so many people go through life and no one gets to hear the music. So there's something of them that doesn't really ever get to be utilized and heard.
And that's another real privilege of what we get to do because we see and we hear that music and somebody and help them to get that engaged. I think one of the things Bill and I agree on is a lot of people that are not in what we call ‘good job fit’ - it doesn't really fit them that have been shamed for that.
And they feel a sense of, because maybe they got fired or maybe they never get promoted or whatever. It's not that they're a bad person, which might be their conclusion. They are trying to do things that they're not fit for. So to help them to really take some responsibility now that they can understand the way they're made and go after things that do fit them is a win-win, because that's where they really have a purpose and a sense of meaning.
And it's also where they add to the world's flourishing by being in the right.
[00:04:18] Tommy Thomas: Bill, I know you and I have worked together, gosh, probably a dozen times over the last 15 years, and every time we work together, you bring out your overlapping rectangle illustration. And I realize our viewers can't, our listeners can't see what you're talking about but it is such a good illustration. Can you describe that a little bit for our listeners?
[00:04:39] Bill Hendricks: Sure. The simple diagram to illustrate what Bev was talking about, their job fit, we said, ‘is this the right job for me or is this the right person for the job?’ We're talking about job fit. How do you know what job fit is? Think of two boxes.
That one is stacked on top of the other, and they're not in perfect alignment. There are two boxes, one over top of the other, and there's a bit of overhang, if you will. And in the top box, we're looking at a person. In that box, we're trying to figure out, ‘what does this person love to do? What are they born to do?’
We're talking about their giftedness, and what we do at The Giftedness Center is put a very comprehensive and precise definition and description to what a person's giftedness really is based on their own life history. And then in the bottom box, we're looking at that person relative to some context, like a job, a position, or a career only.
We look at that job or position or career through the same lens of motivation. We look at the person and we ask the question, ‘what's really required to satisfy the expectations of whoever's paying for this job or position?’ Hiring is all about expectations. The organization, the company, the business, the nonprofit, they have a function and whoever's paying for that function, they have a picture in their mind of what success for that job looks like and whatever it takes to deliver that picture of success on a very consistent basis over time.
Those are the real motivational requirements of the job. And so, you've got what the person is born to do, looked at in comparison with what their expectations are and what they're required to do. And wherever you have overlap between the person, the top box, and the bottom box, the job that's a good fit because when the person puts energy in to do what's required, they get a net gain of energy back.
But of course, there are parts of the boxes that don't overlap. and that's where all the challenges come. So there's a part of the bottom box. It doesn't fit the person well. What do they do? They gotta do it because it's required. So they extend themselves out to cover that part of the job. Only now they're working out of what we call can-do energy, not love-to-do energy.
The problem with can-do energy is that the person puts energy into the job, but they get none back. And a little bit of can-do is okay and probably builds character. But what we're trying to avoid is where the boxes are way out of alignment and the person's putting significant amounts of can-do energy into the job, getting very little energy back from doing the job.
And that's not sustainable. That's a recipe for burnout.
[00:07:35] Tommy Thomas: Bill, when you and I have worked together, we talk about motivated abilities or things people, as you say, are born to do, and then every job has a set of competencies that you will probably do to get that job done.
Maybe the two of you unpack the difference between those two.
[00:07:55] Bev Godby: Motivated ability is something that's instinctive to the person. They get into an activity and it's like an arsenal, that they carry with them and they just pull this out. They instinctively go after work or anything that they're motivated to do, but they're acting in a way and they love to do it. They are good at it, they love to do it. It's just instinctive to them. So a good example of that might be somebody who's like what we would call, maybe a born leader. And they instinctively do it the way they do it. And that doesn't mean that they just take over the room and okay everybody, let's do this.
Some people would think a leader is, maybe the way they lead is a lot more subtle and they're more like a stealth missile than you. Just, it's in the group, but then gradually over time, they're making sure that things are taken care of and everybody starts looking to them now to be the leader.
That's an instinctive gift for them and that is the way they do it. But when it's recognized, it's obviously very useful, but the best part about it is it may take a lot of energy, whatever they're doing, but they get this net exchange of energy back because they're doing what they're made to do.
Bill said earlier about being a hammer and getting hammer nails. But competencies I see. It could be, the person's going to use their motivated ability if, to accomplish competency, but competencies are just things that people would like to see done.
And there's a wide range of how those things could be done. One of the things we talk to organizations about a lot is when you say that you're gonna hire someone, what is, basically the motivated ability that we're gonna need to see in an individual? And this is the work you do, Tommy, to help them figure out if this is someone who's gonna give you what you're looking for.
[00:09:58] Bill Hendricks: Tommy, I was just gonna add, you say there's competency and then there's motivated ability. The word “competency” and the word “ability” are quite similar, but the real key here is the motivational piece. In order to have true giftedness, you have to have a combination of ability matched with motivation.
You can't have either one without the other to qualify as giftedness. And so I've met people who had abilities, but they didn't have the motivation for it. I once worked with a guy who was a very big man, and he could have been a linebacker for any National Football League team. And in fact, he had played football in high school and he was very good at it.
And I asked him, “How come you didn't go on to college and even consider the pros?” And he laughed. He said, “Man, it broke my dad's heart. He was already talking to college coaches and all set to see me waltzing my way into the NFL. And then when I got to college, I didn't get to play.” I said, “How come you quit?”
He said, “That's easy. I was very good at it, but I didn't like getting hit.” And so, he had ability, but he didn't have motivation. And then on the other side, you can have motivation, but not ability. And to stick with that football analogy there, there are many men, at least here in the United States, who'd love to be able to throw a football like Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes.
They have all the motivation in the world, but they don't have the ability. So you gotta put those two together. And so you can have competency in an area but that doesn't necessarily mean that you're motivated to exercise that competency. That's why motivation is the desire, it's the hunger, it's the drive that comes from within, not from the outside.
[00:11:43] Bev Godby: And I think, Tommy, a lot of people discovered this during the pandemic, parents that were called into teaching. We don't have a really high value on teaching in our world and America right now, and it's a low-hanging fruit. And a lot of people think anybody can teach - “Just get up there and do it.”
And it is so obvious to parents when they then had to stay home and try to do this thing, they sent their kids down the street to get done, that wow, this was a really different thing than they thought. I would get called into some schools, to a teacher maybe who is struggling to help them figure it out.
And I remember this one school where I met with this art teacher. She was hired because she was artsy, crafty, creative like that. But every day she was getting sick to her stomach when she had to go in and she was, I hate to say it, but by her own words, she was a failure as a teacher. She couldn't do classroom management.
And this was the saddest thing ever. She was hired also because she had, I think a degree from DTS and they thought she'd be great for this Christian school.
That part was great, except there was nothing in her that wanted to teach.
And it was so clear. She said, I thought that because I was miserable at this, that this must be what God wanted me to do.
And I thought, we've done a really bad job at teaching if someone thinks that. Because if God made you this way and brought you into the world for a specific, time and place with a purpose attached to this, the thought that you'd be miserable all your life trying to do something seemed so sad to me.
But she was so grateful when I said to her, ‘the only problem here is you, nothing in you really wants to do this job.’ And it was a relief, that ‘I don't have to do this anymore.’ And I said, ‘Here's the thing. You're leaving room now for somebody else who would love to do this job to come in and use it. So it's great. You're gonna go on to do something that you're really made to do.’
[00:14:10] Tommy Thomas: I mentor at one of the local elementary schools here, and the other day they had invited me in to watch a science experiment, but I got there a little early, and the teacher had then all in, fourth graders, had then all around on the floor, and she was talking to them about their uniqueness and how each one of them was so unique.
[00:14:27] Tommy Thomas: And I thought, man, how cool was that? And so for about five minutes, she just had them, she had them in the palm of her hand. And you could tell she was in her element. You could see the fire in her eye.
[00:14:42] Tommy Thomas: I know we have listeners of all kinds. But I want to go to the corporate listener for a minute here. We do a lot of work where you have to have somebody to do a turnaround. And, guess what we've learned over the years is that,
People have to enjoy the elements of turnaround. They have to be drawn to fight that battle.
Can either one of you go there for a minute?
[00:15:08] Bill Hendricks: Oh, absolutely. Giftedness, as Bev alluded to earlier, is a pattern of behavior in a person's life. So what we would be looking for, as I know you would be Tommy, is if somebody's going to be a, call 'em a turnaround artist, you know, that's like the bomb squad.
Everybody else is running out of the building and this person's running into the building to defuse the bomb.
There are actually people who have a lifelong history of, metaphorically speaking, defusing bombs. They love the challenge of it, or they like the obstacles that they have to overcome.
They enjoy even possibly the potentially adversarial situations they might find themselves in. They have a passion for bringing change for the better. And they love to get into thorny, gnarly situations often where people, things, are involved and help to promote listening, understanding, ultimately conversation that begins to resolve differences and iron things out and put systems in place to keep those problems from festering up again.
And they're brilliant, and they're not. A lot of people aren’t like that out there, but they're out there. And the way you know they're out there is when you get their stories, you find out, huh, this person has a whole pattern of getting into those situations. The one caveat is to notice that once you've diffused the bomb, once you've put the fire out, once you've rebuilt what was burning and things are working well, the person has essentially worked themself out of a job.
Because their whole bent is to fix something. Once it's fixed, they're done, they're ready to go do that again, probably somewhere else.
And so turnaround artists are great, but you don't want that turnaround artist to outlive their welcome.
[00:17:09] Bev Godby: I have a son-in-law that he just described, and he's now out in Midland turning an oil and gas company around.
And it's amazing what he's done since he's been there. But he's telling them the hard things. They don't always want to do that, but he's so great at taking a problem and being able to analyze it and figure out exactly what we need to do here. So a lot of it depends on if they're also going to be aligned with people that wanna listen to that hard truth.
Because a lot of people that are turnaround artists, perhaps could do that, but they've got to have somebody willing to listen to this. He's predicting that the company he works for is going to be sold in the next year. And I could believe that's probably going to be true. So he's gonna get a new shot somewhere else, is my guess.
And we're hoping it's not in Midland anymore. Maybe we can move him a little closer home.
[00:18:02] Tommy Thomas: Bev, you told a story with your teacher illustration about the good fit-bad fit. Bill, do you have, again, protecting the names of the innocent, would you have a story about a good fit-bad fit that you've had?
[00:18:14] Bill Hendricks: One of the most dramatic, and do you want me to pick one from the corporate world or just people in general?
[00:18:20] Tommy Thomas: You can go in general. It's all the same.
[00:18:22] Bill Hendricks: It really is. This one's not from the corporate world. It's with an individual. But the reason I tell it is because it's my view that we have in a sense Leonardo Da Vinci's and Michelangelo’s and Mother Teresa's and Winston Churchill’s, and those kinds of people all around us, but because no one's ever tapped into their giftedness and given them opportunities to develop and cultivate it we don't get to see that giftedness expressed very much.
One of the most dramatic cases I've ever seen was a guy who called me up. He was 30 years old and said, ‘Bill, I need to come see you.’
And I said, ‘Tell me about it.’ He says, ‘I'm laying tile and I'm hating life. I'm in a dead-end job. I can't stand it. If I don't figure this out soon, I just don't know what I'm going to do.’
And when we popped the hood on his giftedness, I had on my hands what amounted to a modern-day Leonardo da Vinci.
This was a person who loved to look into the properties of whatever he was working on, whether it was wood or stone or water or fire. He had worked with all kinds of media, and he would experiment with it and figure out what you could do with it and how it worked. And then he would always create some imaginative rendering that was very conceptual in nature.
So, he was a sculptor in a lot of what he did in putting in installations and stuff like this. And I said, ‘we're going to have a hard time finding a meaningful job for you because you're going to get bored easily.’ And for the next 10 years he worked a series of odd jobs to make ends meet, but he took me seriously and he applied himself to his craft and his art and one day, a couple of years ago, about three years ago by now, I got a phone call from him. He said, ‘Bill, you always told me it was going to take about 10 years before you said my ship would come in.’ I said, ‘yeah.’ He said, ‘I think my ship has come in.’ And he described to me that his father, who's also an artist, had heard about a contest that one of the departments up in Washington DC had put out a call for proposals to put a sculpture on the National Mall, the last of the space available for that sort of thing.
And his dad just had heard about that and was just playing around and did a sketch. And my friend saw this sketch and said, ‘Dad, I think you got something here.’ And then the two of them worked on this thing together. And anyway,
A couple of years ago, a 22 million dollar sculpture on the National Mall was unveiled that this guy and his father had put together.
And really the guy that patterned it was in many ways the technical brain behind all of the design of the infrastructure and how it was going to get built and the budget and so forth and so on. And just think about those 10 years before that guy had been laying tile, and yet there was all that giftedness just sitting there. What I'm saying is that it's really worth doing some work to discover what is inside people and then give it an opportunity to develop and to be unleashed because
God has put into each and every person strengths that have an actual effect on the world and its people.
And if we can unleash those strengths and put them where they will do the most good, as Bev used the word earlier, we will cause human flourishing. And wherever you see giftedness, given an opportunity to express itself in alignment with the purposes for which it was given you, you discover that there's always human flourishing.
[00:22:07] Tommy Thomas: Let's close with this. In the movie Chariots of Fire, perhaps the most memorable line was when Eric Liddell said,
“I believe that God made me for a purpose, but he also made me fast. When I run, I feel his pleasure”.
To each of you my question would be, what are you doing when you feel God's pleasure?
Go ahead, Bev.
[00:22:29] Bev Godby: Sure. Set me up first. Right now I'm in an interesting place that we all come to if we are given years. And that is, I both have my mom who's quite elderly now, who needs a certain amount of tending, if you will, to her needs and all right now, and then I have grown children that have their own families, six grandkids.
And I'm asking that question of, this idea about parenting, like how do we, in this stage where, we're watching adult children, which are no longer the same as the kids we had, and I'm watching my own mother now. And I'm very much taking a different role with her. So how do I see what is God asking me of me now that my hands are empty, I guess you might say, in a certain way from the quote, onsite parenting job I just think it's a value to pay attention to. What are you being called to in this space and time and how do you do it? And the real thing that I'm very interested in, because so many people are asking me, how do you parent adult children?
I think the answer to that is you don't parent adult children, you have adult children. You have parented. And I haven't yet figured out the word that we're using for this, but I think it's about relationship. Tommy, I think we're building, perhaps if we've been fortunate to have a good relationship with those kids when they were, in your own home.
But now you're forging something brand new that feels like mutual respect and doing something. There's a verse in Proverbs that says the wise woman builds her house and I think we never really get finished building the house. And how do you think about adding value to what they're doing without imposing some of the same kind of story that you had at one point.
So, there's a certain amount of also surrendering some of the baggage, maybe, and trying to see what God might be making new here. The same thing’s true in the thing with my mother, even though it would not seem that way. You've gotta keep pressing into what is new here? What, where's God working?
[00:25:12] Tommy Thomas: How about you, Bill?
[00:25:12] Bill Hendricks: Tommy, my sweet spot Bev told earlier that both she and I, we each have our unique giftedness, but we both share in common the thought that we want to impact, we want to make an impact. Impact has the idea of a collision of some sort.
It's like a baseball bat hitting a baseball in the sweet spot and knocking it out of the park. In other words, impactors want to make a difference. I have been privileged over the last 25, and I say, going on 30 years, to do this work of helping people discover their giftedness. And it makes a huge impact.
I would say it makes, as it did for me, a transformational impact. Like the person's never quite the same afterwards, and it's a positive impact.
When you ask the question, ‘What is it that makes me feel God's pleasure?’ It's when I see somebody like that guy that helped put the sculpture up, not only to discover what their gift is, but then to go do something meaningful with it.
And just to realize that I had a small part in allowing them and enabling them to get to that point, I take tremendous joy and satisfaction when the people that I've worked with are effective and find success, whatever their giftedness happens to be. The gift is not from me. I'm not a genius.
I'm just a part of a process that God has used for them to wake up to their giftedness. I estimate that I've personally put about 2,000 individuals through the process that we use, that you're familiar with, and Bev's probably put at least another 1,500 or more. And so, by now we got lots and lots of stories of people.
And honestly, I'd say now it's to the point where on a weekly basis I'm getting an email or a phone call, running into somebody's parents. But I get feedback. Somebody's saying, ‘Bill, I never thought it would happen for me, but I feel like I'm in the perfect job for me.’ And you see somebody on Facebook and they're telling you about what they're now doing and realize, wow, they really believed it.
They took it, they ran with it. They honored it, they leaned into it, and then good stuff starts happening. And whenever that happens, I leap out of bed the next morning to go help the next person. And now what Bev and I are trying to do is figure out how do we not only scale what we do beyond just our little corner of the world in Dallas. How do we turn this into a legacy that we can pass down through successive generations so that the day might come when people don't have to be like me and get to 30 years of age and still don't know what they're supposed to be doing and floundering about scared because they can't figure it out and starting to think terrible thoughts about themselves.
God put us here to cause the world and its people to flourish and there are a lot of elements to that but certainly one of the keys at the core of that is for people to discover and then begin to lean into their giftedness.
[00:28:21] Tommy Thomas: It's always good to catch up with Bill and Bev. I so appreciate the work that they're doing at The Giftedness Center. I appreciate it even more when Bill has time to work with me on a CEO search for a nonprofit organization. He adds so much to the process.
Sometime in the coming months, Bill and Bev will join me again and the three of us will talk with Don Kiehl about seeing a child's giftedness through the eyes of a little league baseball coach. Don has been a student of giftedness and motivation for over 40 years and has some keen insights into this area.
If our technology works, my guests next week will be Dr. David Stevens, recently retired CEO of the Christian Medical and Dental Association. You'll enjoy Dr. Steven's leadership journey from medical school to working in a remote hospital in Kenya to how God used him in the renaissance of the Christian Medical and Dental Association.
Until next week, keep doing what you're doing to make the non-profit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Giftedness Center
What is Your Giftedness and How Do You Discover It?
The Person Called You: Why You're Here, Why You Matter & What You Should Do With Your Life
The Power of Uniqueness
So How Do I Parent THIS Child? Discovering the Wisdom and the Wonder of Who Your Child Was Meant to Be
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Bill Hendricks: Ralph was just an amazing person. Any rate I went through the process and when I got to the feedback session, which is like the reveal okay here's your giftedness. It was as if I'd been in a pitch-black room my whole life, bumping into the wall, falling over, furniture getting hurt, and somebody just reached over and flipped the light switch on. And very quickly I began to see all kinds of things that I'm like, oh my gosh, now I understand what it is I'm trying to do.
[00:00:28] Tommy Thomas: My guests today are my good friends, Bev Hendricks Godby, and her brother Bill Hendricks. They work together at The Giftedness Center in Dallas. Bill holds degrees from Harvard University, Boston University, and Dallas Theological Seminary. He's the author or the co-author of 22 books, including The Person Called You, Why You're Here, Why You Matter, and What You Should Do with Your Life, and his most recent book, which he co-authored with Bev - So How do I Parent this Child - Discovering the Wisdom and Wonder of Who Your Child was Meant To Be?
Bev has degrees from Wheaton College and the University of Texas at Dallas, a former educator and audiologist. She's particularly attuned to how the giftedness of her clients expresses itself in the whole of their life, narrative, and relationships.
[00:01:24] Tommy Thomas: Bill and Bev have made a great impact on the corporate and nonprofit sectors as they've advised people, ranging from high school and college students to corporate and nonprofit executives on how to be their best by understanding their individual giftedness, and as Max Lucado put it on his book on giftedness, How to Live in Your Sweet Spot.
I've known Bill and Bev for many years. A trip to the Dallas Metroplex isn't complete without sharing a meal. We've shared meals at Papa Do's Seafood Kitchen and Papasitas Cantina, and we've also had a couple of memorable meals at Bev and her husband, Dale's home. So Bev and Bill, welcome the NextGen Nonprofit Leadership
[00:02:06] Bill Hendricks: Thank you, Tommy. Great to be with you.
[00:02:08] Bev Godby: It's wonderful to be here.
[00:02:11] Tommy Thomas: Bev, when I was undergraduate at Auburn, I was well known to the students at speech therapy and audiology. I have a conduction loss in my right ear. And once word got out that I was a will and Guinea pig, I was a regular guest at the Speech and Hearing Lab, I guess it didn't hurt too much that most of the students were attractive co-eds back then,
[00:02:33] Bev Godby: I love hearing that.
[00:02:34] Tommy Thomas: Before we jump too deep into this discussion about giftedness, I'd like to go a little bit to your childhood we'll ask both of you these questions and you can respond, you can figure who goes first. But yeah, going back to some experiences that that you think contributed to helping you become the person you are today.
[00:02:51] Bev Godby: One I'll go first on that one. I found a through line that kind of has gone through my whole story from the very beginning that I remember up until now, and it all began to come together. At Wheaton College. So I would say making a decision to go to Wheaton was probably an inflection point that just really took my life forward.
I had always wanted to be a teacher, so I knew that just probably who knows, maybe wanting to do what my dad did as much as I understood it. But he was the one that always said, Bev, you should go to Wheaton. And he said it as my dad only could. That's not a suggestion, but you really need to chase that one down.
When I got into Wheaton, which I was thrilled. I made that decision to go there. And I think that now when I look at it back at it, I think of that verse in second Timothy that says, guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you. And I just think that was a place where so much good deposit I was the beneficiary of.
And I just see so much that flows out of, again, just. Opportunity to be in that place with the professors that I had. And the real, the thing that really stands out to me is that I think it unleashed for me, or at least introduced to me the power of story. So this is very interesting to me that this is what I'm doing with my life.
it was about the content I was giving them, but it was being more immersed in the whole idea of who this person is
Because from, again, from early years, I always wanted to be a teacher, but the teaching part was really about the story of each person for me. Yes, it was about the content I was giving them, but it was being more immersed in the whole idea of who this person is. So that's been all through my life, but I feel like that at Wheaton, I really got some tools to do that well.
And the rest, was just man plans this way. God directs his steps.
[00:05:03] Tommy Thomas: What about you, Bill?
[00:05:03] Bill Hendricks: Tommy, I was smart enough to be born last. And that made all the difference because when you're the youngest you have the benefit of watching your older siblings make mistakes and then learn from them and not have to make those same mistakes in many cases.
I made plenty of mistakes nonetheless, but there's also, I guess what I'd say now, I'm a I'm a parent of three grown daughters when you're the youngest of four, it's like your older siblings wear down your parents over time so that things go a little easier for you, if I could put it that way.
And I think the other thing about being the youngest was by the time I was getting up into my middle school years obviously as Bev has mentioned, our dad was an educator, so he put a huge emphasis on education. And in fact, all four of us children have at least one master's degree and some more than one.
Education was always a big deal, but they didn't have a lot of money, so it's not everybody went to private schools until my seventh-grade year, a family in our church had their son in a private boys school in Dallas, and they really encouraged my folks to consider putting me in this school.
And of course we thought there's no way we're gonna be able to afford that. But nonetheless, I went over, took some tests one day. found out that this school wanted me, and next thing we know, there's scholarships. And so if Wheaton was a turning point for Bev St. Mark's, which was the name of that school, was a turning point for me.
St. Marks was the best educational experience of my life. And it opened the door, ultimately to the Ivy League and many other opportunities.
[00:06:32] Bill Hendricks: That was the best educational experience of my life. And it opened up the door, ultimately to the Ivy League and many other opportunities. And and so I've been richly blessed by having lots and lots of teachers, mentors, people pour into me. And that's why right next to Giftedness is of a life message right there.
[00:06:53] Bill Hendricks: Next to it is mentoring believes so much in the importance of mentors.
[00:06:58] Tommy Thomas: So you've both mentioned your dad and your mom. what was the most valuable life lesson you learned from your parents?
[00:07:06] Bev Godby: I would say that, For sure. My dad always said, be a person of your word. And I always believed watching him that those were his words, but just being able to watch the man all the time. It was even more fleshed out as character matters. Who you are when no one's watching you will determine the arc of your story.
And I saw him actually do that in real life. And so that's always been really important to me to be a person of my word. , feel that he really displayed humility. He was a man that certain groups of people would get real excited about and always, they'd meet me, they'd always go, oh, you're dad.
And they'd say amazing things about him. But he, when I would tell him that, he would go bezels, they just don't know me like you and I know me. . And it was just so forever humility has been such a key trait that I look for in people and really tr treasure for myself. Not that I think I can claim that, but I'd look for that.
[00:08:19] Bev Godby: And I think that's at the heart of everything that I wanna be.
[00:08:23] Bill Hendricks: I like to think that we're literally standing on our dead's shoulders and building on his legacy in this whole giftedness. Work that we do not least of which, because our dad was in a perfect fit with his giftedness.
Our dad was in a perfect fit with his giftedness. The man was born to teach, and he became a legendary teacher, an iconic figure as a teacher.
The man was born to teach and he became a legendary teacher, an iconic figure as a teacher. I happen to work at the school that he, I have a role at the school that he taught at for 60 years. And by the day I get people mention his name and hallowed voice and but they all have memories of him.
And he used to say, I love to teach. I lived to teach why I'd teach, whether or not they paid me to teach. And it was really true because we watched him teach even when he didn't get paid for it. And I think Bec and he, as part of that, he had a gift for seeing the giftedness of other people.
And he would call it out. He would affirm what their strengths were and challenge them to lean into and live into those strengths and do something with them. And so now we do a very formalized form of giftedness discovery. But it's really continuing on that legacy that that he had of identifying people's strengths and we just love what we do.
[00:09:39] Tommy Thomas: I interviewed Dr. Linda Livingstone, the president down at Baylor a couple weeks ago, and her dad was a prominent basketball coach in the state of Oklahoma. And so I asked her, did you know your dad was was famous? And she said probably not really, not in the early days anyway.
I didn't know your dad personally, but I've sat under his teaching a lot. What was it like to grow up in the household of somebody that at least some of us thought was famous?
[00:10:04] Bev Godby: There was always good and bad of course, in that, right? The weird part was that in certain circles you'd go particularly church related kind of things, and he was the rockstar.
Like honestly, people would talk about him like. But then you'd go to school or you'd go just wherever else and no one's ever heard of them. So there was that disconnect a little bit. We, I feel, especially as a girl because I didn't get to go to the seminary seminaries in those days, Dallas Seminary in particular was only for men.
I didn't really ever see him teach. The only time that we would really watch him do what he did was when we would go to Fort Worth. He had a church there that he used to pastor, and they'd invite him back all the time and we'd, and it was like watching someone on stage that is not your father.
Like it was a not me kind of experience, but I loved it. And we saw what people enjoyed about him. But there was a lot of the, son of daughter of thing that went on. . What was great, one of the great things about Wheaton was almost everybody. There was the son or daughter of somebody, Billy Graham, the real luminaries in the Christian world.
So no one cared about that. And I loved that I could just be me, be who I was. But it def it definitely was a mixed bag. Tommy I'll, I'll not lie about that, but in the end, I think it opened a lot of doors for me going forward, and I'll always be so grateful to him. On the 20th is gonna be the 10th year since he's passed away.
And I think more and more I appreciate that legacy that I was handed.
[00:11:48] Tommy Thomas: What about you, bill, as being the baby brother?
[00:11:50] Bill Hendricks: It's a tremendous advantage to have a father that people just naturally think well of. I can't imagine what people do. And I know there's too many of them, who, whose father does not have a good reputation and then they have to live that down.
Yeah, there's been pressure and expectations at times to live up to our dad's reputation. But, and as I get older, I realize that's not all, not altogether bad. It can be if you let it overwhelm your life and your identity. But, I after enough years of therapy, I think I of worked that one through. But it's a tremendous honor to, as I say, to have people mention one's father's name and see in their eyes the respect, the admiration, the love that they have had for him and. . All in all it's a privilege. It's it then just wants me to do and be the best I can be in what God's called me to in my twenties.
[00:12:48] Tommy Thomas: I had every tape that your dad ever did on communications, and I would listen to those tapes on communication and. There are just have such great memories of Dr. Hendricks. Bill you mentioned about teaching when they didn't pay him I'm sure he said this in a lot of his tapes, but he says, “they pay me to do this They don't pay me much, but they pay me to do this” . Just, great memories there.
When I was in my early thirties, I was struggling with my career, and I read an article by RC Sproul where he talked about this thing called giftedness or understanding one's uniqueness. I got some career counseling, and it literally changed my life.
Fast forward to 1996 and our firm had been asked to submit a proposal to conduct the search for Bob Sieple’ssuccessor at World Vision US. I remember my colleague Robert Stevenson and I, we flew up to Chicago at O'Hare to meet with the search committee and one of the members of the search committee she says are you the guys that work with Arthur Miller?
And we said, yeah we, yeah, we do. And so she went on to say about, she had read his book, the Truth About You, and told the story of how she and two of colleagues had gotten together to do business together because they were all very good at what they did in the field of communications.
When they got together, it was a train wreck. They just didn't work together well. And so one of 'em had read the book The Truth About You, and they called Mr. Miller in, and he gave them a session and told 'em he could have told them in the beginning they weren't gonna work well together because they were all so different.
And they were bound to clash. And so they busted up their company, went back to their other jobs and remained fast friends. They were thankful for Mr. Miller's counsel. So my guess my question is, when did the two of you first become aware of this thing called giftedness? And how did you begin to talk about it as such?
When did the two of you first become aware of this thing called giftedness? And how did you begin to talk about it as such?
[00:14:34] Bill Hendricks: guess I, I should begin that story. When I was 30 years old, I had finished my second master's degree and about a week after graduation, my wife said to me, in no uncertain terms, listen I'm tired of putting you through school. I wanna start a family and stay home with children. You need to get out there and make some money.
And in parliamentary terms we call that calling the question like, you gotta make a decision. And the problem is, I didn't really know what I should do. And I was scared about it and people are saying to me, oh, but Bill you went to Harvard, you have two master's degrees, you can do anything you want.
And I'm like they may be, but I don't know what I want to do. And it was about that time that somebody introduced me to Ralph Matson, who was a colleague of Art Miller's. And I was very skeptical of the process because I'd been through a career guidance clinic in Boston and spent three and a half days and had a lot of test results back.
But I still didn't know what to do with my life. But this was different because this was story-based. And also Ralph was just a amazing person. Any rate I went through the process and
when I got to the feedback session, which is like the reveal okay here's your giftedness. It was as if I'd been in a pitch-black room my whole life, bumping into the wall, falling over, furniture getting hurt, and somebody just reached over and flipped the light switch on.
And very quickly I began to see all kinds of things that I'm like, oh my gosh, now I understand what it is I'm trying to do. And I began to make choices on the basis of that career-wise that led me to better and better fit.
And about 10 years into it I, a lot of that was writing projects, Tommy, and you mentioned Art Miller in his book, the Truth About You, he wanted to get another book on giftedness done.
Art was a very brilliant man, but he was not a writer. And so he finally let me help him put a manuscript together on this other book, and it was working on that project that I realized. How taken I was with this whole phenomenon of giftedness and just decided to reinvent my consulting practice around it.
So that's what I've been doing for the last 25, going on 30 years and about I don't know maybe five years into it, something like that. I was actually looking to add some people to the team and I'll let Bev pick it up from there cuz that's about the time she came aboard.
[00:16:57] Bev Godby: Maybe 23 years or whatever ago he was looking to add bandwidth.
He had a particular application he wanted to do and so he said he was put out a call, like he was gonna hire some people. There must have been 20 people in the room that came for that informational meeting. And he decided, I guess he looked at a lot of factors, but of course, before he was gonna hire anybody, they were gonna go through giftedness. You have to drink the Kool-Aid if you're gonna talk about it. So it was then that I got to go through the process myself. And this is honestly true. I just happened to be very uncommonly. Gifted to do the work that Bill had done, and I don't think I had any real clue about what he did before, except that I was interested when he had put out this call for people to work for him.
I thought - that sounds really interesting to me. Now I know why. But it was a very, it's been a privilege. There were about five people at that time that was working for Bill, and I always think I'm the one that stayed, so now it's me and Bill, bill and I, and it works great because we each have a very different kind of giftedness, but we both share one piece, and that's something that we call impact.
So we're trying to make a difference. We have that shared vision for what this work is. We both have our own practice, but we get together for projects. Right now we're doing a couple putting giftedness in the, in two schools that are interested in, in, making this into a curriculum for their students and their teachers and parents.
So that's been really fun. I can't think of anything that I have enjoyed more in my life. It just feels like I was always meant to do this work. Sometimes people ask me, don't you ever get tired of interviewing people and listening to their stories? And I'm about as incredulous as my father was when I was asked to speak to a faculty for a back-to-school retreat.
And they said, the title of the retreat was going to be, how do we keep from making this just another year? And I thought I think I'll ask my dad about that because, , he's been doing this now for 57 years at the seminary. So if anyone, is just going through the motions, it would be him.
But I knew he wasn't. So I went and talked to him about that and he just looked incredulous when I said, even posed that question to him, and he goes, how in the world could that be just the same? Nothing's the same. You got all new people in the room, and you just got so energized. And he goes and they got new questions, and they interact with the material so differently.
And it just excites me to go and do every year because it could never be like the year before. And so it's, that is really what this work is like for me is every ti every day is a new person. So it couldn't better.
[00:20:11] Tommy Thomas: Let me give you a quote by Warren Bennis and I'm gonna date myself here cause Warren Bennis was writing back when I was in graduate school.
This is an older quote, but I think it rings true.
Too many companies believe people are interchangeable, truly gifted people, never are. They have unique talents. Such people cannot be forced into roles they're not suited for, nor should they be. Effective leaders allow great people to do the work they were born to do.
[00:20:39] Bill Hendricks: I agree with that a thousand percent. He didn't use the word giftedness, but when he uses the word doing what they were born to do, that's about the simplest definition of giftedness I'm aware of. Giftedness is basically what you're born to do. Everybody's born to do something for one person.
They're born to solve a problem, never met a problem they didn't wanna solve somebody else. They're born to understand something at a very deep level. Somebody else, they're born to get people to respond to them and influence their behavior. We could go on and on all day about all the different forms of giftedness.
There are, there's actually as many forms of giftedness as there are people, because every person really is unique. And if you put a person in a slot where they do what they're born to do, they work with tremendous energy and motivation, they need a whole lot less management. They just simply thrive and they're usually highly productive.
And Bennis spot on there, in his assessment.
[00:21:40] Tommy Thomas: Bev, do you have anything to add there?
Bev Godby:
I think that whenever you are talking to a person that is talking about their giftedness, a light goes on in their eyes.
They just get excited telling you about it. And one, one of the reasons that makes the way that we get to get our data, because people come to us because something's not working in their life, usually it's work related.
And so what we do is go back to their highlights tape. I call it, we have a, we're watching them in real life, doing what they've done all their life. They get about eight stories to us, tell us the details of it. And this very discreet pattern shows up. It is how they do what they do every time they're motivated.
And we're, we are living in a time right now where there's a lot of emphasis on motivation. There's all kinds of tests out there. Myers Briggs. Strength Finders, the new one now that's pretty popular with young people is Enneagram.. And these are all ways to use that same information, but they're first of all getting their information from the person.
What do they like, what do they prefer? So that the test is as good as the person knows themselves. First of all, could they give that information? But secondly it's about comparing you to other people and putting you in a group and giving you a type. And The way that we do it, ours is not by asking people to tell us what they love to do, if they knew that they'd probably be doing a job where they did what they love to do.
But we turn it on its head a little bit and we just capture them in the act of enjoying life.
So we get to quote, watch them through their words, telling us about a time that they did something they really loved and did well. And what is really great about story is that it reveals us for who we are.
So when they would tell eight stories, This very discreet pattern shows up, and there's a lot of pieces in there that the person could not tell us that's true about them. But when we hold up the mirror to them and say this is what you're, the data is telling us they see it a hundred percent.
So it has a lot of power, maybe a lot more power than some of those other assessments out there, because it comes right out of their story. They know that we're telling them the truth, and moreover, we're telling them a truth that no one else really knows about them because they live inside their skin.
So, they know what we're saying is a hundred percent true. So it gives us a lot of permission to help guide them. I think that's one of the reasons why this job is so satisfying for me, because this is still being a teacher. It's just a different classroom teacher. It's not that, but it's coming alongside of a person and really, Tommy, you're standing on holy ground.
They're telling you something that is, they not be. So it's not only true about them, it has power. And I want them to see that, that it has value and that they are made this way on purpose, for purpose. So that's really the joy of the. .
[00:25:10] Tommy Thomas: I tell people when we're talking about interviewing them, I, I tell them - as they're asking questions, look for the fire in somebody's eyes.
Because when they're talking about something that that really plays into who they are and their strengths, their eyes will light up and they'll be an animation and that part of the interview that, that may not be present if they're just talking about something that they had to do.
Next week, we’ll pick up this conversation with Bill and Bev again. If you like what you're hearing, let me assure you, it gets better. If this conversation has piqued your interest in this thing called giftedness, visit thegiftednesscenter.com to learn more. That's thegiftednesscenter.com.
In the transcript of this episode we'll have links to several books written by Bill Hendricks, as well as other writers on this thing called giftedness. Until next week, keep doing what you're doing to make the non-profit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Giftedness Center
The Person Called You: Why You're Here, Why You Matter & What You Should Do With Your Life
The Power of Uniqueness
So How Do I Parent THIS Child? Discovering the Wisdom and the Wonder of Who Your Child Was Meant to Be
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
[00:00:00] Doug Nuenke: We did a Grati-tour. That's what we called it, a Grati-tour. We took five months, and we traveled around the country. We didn't get to see everybody, but we stopped in major cities and big places where we had groupings of navigators, and we let them decide what they wanted it to look like.
In some cases, a small group of people around a dinner table. In other cases, they pulled a big group of people together and had me speak. But the number one job for me, or what God had put on our heart was just to go around and say thank you.
[00:00:31] Tommy Thomas: When you became the president and CEO of the Navigators what was the biggest surprise about the job?
I think the biggest surprise was that everything I really needed to know I learned in kindergarten
[00:00:38] Doug Nuenke: It was not my experience as a leader leading in the navigators and other ministries before that, or, the skills I had developed. The gifting that God had given me, it was the simple things that I learned as a young believer to depend on God, to trust holy in Him, to clinging to him, to abide in Jesus and to be rooted in the scriptures and what God teaches us there.
And then to serve. To love people to do things like, will you forgive me? I screwed up, or, thank you. Wow. Your contribution. That was such an amazing contribution. The things that we learned to kindergarten, learn, treating one another, the way we wanna be treated, those kind of things. Things that we learn as a baby believer were the most important things.
That’s what I needed to do when I first started, but all through my tenure is what God calls us to, and sometimes we can forget those things. ,
[00:01:53] Tommy Thomas: What was the hardest decision you ever had to make as the leader of The Navigators?
I think the hardest decisions were always people decisions and personnel decisions. To have to do what Henry Cloud calls, bring about necessary endings
[00:01:57] Doug Nuenke: where someone had to move out of a contribution that they had held for a while and that they weren't ready to move out of that contribution. It's painful. It was, and it's difficult because who of us signs up for leadership because we wanna bring pain or hardship to someone.
We don't want to do that, but at the same time it's what God calls us as leaders to be involved with is have to make some of those hard decisions painful.
[00:02:43] Tommy Thomas: Let’s talk about risk? What's the biggest risk that you and the navigators took under your leadership and how did it turn out?
[00:02:51] Doug Nuenke: That's a great question.
I think probably the greatest risk during my tenure. Would've been fanning the flame of diversity and different ways of seeing The Navigator ministry, and at the same time trying to bring unity around a new strategic plan.
I mean it's, we had to do it, no question, but it was risky because it could have really been easy to just let everyone do their part. The thing that they love doing. I think a lot of Parachurch Ministries are very decentralized and people have a lot of freedom to do ministry in the way that they like to do ministry.
And I think, one of the riskiest things that other ministries as well, but I think for us as Navigators is say, that's great. We're gonna have a lot of creativity and entrepreneurial energy that's out there, but we're gonna all together head. This direction. And we're gonna measure our success not just on what we do in all these different creative ways out here, that we do things a little differently, but we're gonna actually measure our success around this one thing that we do that makes us.
And it's risky because Parachurch Ministries is Max Dupree. I love his little book. Leading Without Power. Parachurch Ministries are, he would call volunteer organizations to one degree or another. People come as volunteers and anytime you decide to as leaders to really lead and say, that's great, but no, we're gonna do this now.
Anytime you do that's because you've got, you have to win and woo people together into a certain direction. Yeah. Learned a lot over the years. Moving into that,
[00:04:59] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned strategic planning a minute ago. What did that look like under your administration?
[00:05:05] Doug Nuenke: In the spirit of all humility, I would say that in my early years it was really margin.
I learned a lot. I think we had, there were, I could, we could do a, we could do a session about strategic planning and all the lessons I learned by making mistake sometime, Tommy. But I think we grew in it and we grew to the place where the current strategic plan the navigators have, has everyone on the same page with a grand vision, a God size goal hat we all are pulling for. And I think that's the goal, that's the goal of a good strategic plan, is it energizes the whole. . . And I would say that in early in my tenure, we had some great goals that we were giving ourselves to that, to, that were helpful, that were really helpful and moved forward, but they moved pieces forward rather than moving the hole forward. And we learned a lot over the years on that. I'm glad to see.
[00:06:06] Tommy Thomas: If we could go back a couple of years and you were to have invited me to one of your staff meetings and I got a chance to talk to your staff, and then maybe we excused you and I got a chance to ask them what they thought would've been the most challenging thing about working for Doug. What do you think I would've heard?
[00:06:25] Doug Nuenke: In one case it probably would depend on who you talked with. Probably different team members would've a different perspective on that, and I'm sure they all would've had a perspective because I, I have strengths and I have weaknesses. But I probably all together, probably what they would say was, would be, there's always something new, new mountains to.
New ideas to try. or a new change to bring improvement. So I think early on probably it would've been like, oh man, we can't keep, we can't keep bringing a new change every month. I would say that would be one of the things that if you got 'em alone, they would've said and they would've been right.
[00:07:07] Tommy Thomas: Where does that new come from? In your spirit, what makes you seek the new?
[00:07:13] Doug Nuenke: On the positive side of it, I would say is God's a God of new things. He's always creating. He hasn't quit creating behold, and Isaiah 43, verse 19, but behold, I'm gonna do a new thing. And so I think it's a passion for the new things that God is doing - there's a whole other dark side.
Anytime there's such a light side our leadership, there's always a dark side. We don't need to get into that right now, but I'm sure there's things that keep me fidgety to want to do the new things rather than to continue to build the things that are going on.
[00:07:49] Tommy Thomas: If I would've asked him what would be the most rewarding thing about working for you? What answers would
[00:07:54] Doug Nuenke: I hear? I think the answers would be team, the fact that they felt they were part of a group of people that were on mission together and loved one another and had memories together.
For instance, our team, our executive team and spouses every year would do a retreat together where we would go and make memories together. Whether it was you. Train rides, four wheeling together eating great meals together, being developed together. I think that's one of 'em. The team always enjoyed that I had a high value for entrusting and investing in them and develop, and seeing our team developed and sees developed as individuals and as a group.
[00:08:42] Tommy Thomas: We've talked a lot about work. That's what I generally talk about when I'm talking to leaders, but maybe take me into work life balance. What does that look like?
[00:08:52] Doug Nuenke: Yeah. I think we could both, and those that are listening could site examples where leaders in the body of Christ and churches and Parachurch ministries haven't always modeled good balance and good rhythms and when I stepped into my role as the US President, I was speaking with the international president at the time, and we were talking about how important it was for the next generation of leaders to see.
I wanted to lead with a spring in my step and a smile on my face
The senior roles in the navigators as not death sentences - that the next generation of leaders would see and aspire to having, taking on more responsibility when they saw that those jobs could be lived out in a healthy way. So we coined the term, or I coined the term at that time that I wanted to lead with a spring in my step and a smile on my face. And so that was a tagline for me all through my tenure. Okay, Doug, you need to lead with a spring in your step and a smile on your face. Now how is that gonna happen authentically? And it was the rhythm, the rhythms that I began to put in place then and carried through my tenure.
It didn't make the job part-time. It didn't make it less than a major challenging full-time job, which any CEO role is, but it put rhythms in that kept me connected to Christ and helped me to rest well.
And so the rhythms I had were one is to as best as I could, and I wasn't a hundred percent on this, but as best as I could to have a Sabbath every.
And as best as I could, I would set aside three days a month to get away for study and prayer and prep for messages. And I didn't always get all three days, but I al they were always in my calendar because at times we all know that in senior leader roles, something happens, you just gotta drop everything and move this direction.
But I always had those three days in place, so I always got one or two and sometimes three days to do that. So that was once a month. And then once a year, having time of vacation with Pam or family. and making memories that way, keeping the family healthy and connected together through times together.
And then every year I would have a final time alone with God at the end of the year looking back over my journals and say, okay, Lord what are the words that you have for me going into this next year? So those are just a few of them that, that I lived out during. Time, which I think helped me to live healthily even in some very challenging times.
[00:11:54] Tommy Thomas: Think about the leaders that you know, that you've been around, that you work with. Maybe give me three of them and tell me what you admire about them.
[00:12:05] Doug Nuenke: Yeah. Now you want me to say their names? If you're comfortable. I'm fine. Yeah. I didn't know how specific you want to be. I can, I, the names that I would bring are names that are probably not known to most of the people that will hear this podcast, and I think that's important.
Because I think that most of the work of the gospel gets done by people who are everyday people in every walk of life. And that's the power of the movement of the gospel and important for us to keep that in mind, that. That's the way it works. God intends us all to be involved, so I think one would be a guy named Craig McLean, who was a year older than me.
He was many years a pastor in Kansas City and then led a number of different Parachurch ministries and he took me under his wing as I was a freshman at TCU and had just come to Christ. He took me under his wing and discipled me and gave me a vision for. So that would be one.
Another gentleman, guy named Richard Beach. Richard has been with the Lord for quite some time now. He did my wife and my wedding. He did my mom's memorial service. He spoke at my ordination service, but he was. A constant mentor from the day I came to faith until he left to be with the Lord and he had a passion for evangelism. He's the kind of big personality.
He'd step into a room. It didn't matter whether you're in a restaurant, wherever you were, he would step into a room. And whoever was close to him, didn't matter who they were, would go, man I would love to get to know this guy. This guy seems like an awful lot of fun. And Richard was always quick to have the name of Jesus on his tongue in a very natural, easy way.
And I learned a lot about him in that regard, and I learned a lot about him in terms of keeping it light. The number of times in a executive team meeting we're talking about something, who's the last person in the world that you would think that would keep it late light or make some side comment kind of a joke, some kind of humor.
Throw some humor in it. The CEO, right? No. I couldn't help myself over those years. One of the things I loved was to try to keep it light, even when things were getting tense to, to keep it light. Cause as we all know, it's usually not aca. I learned that from Richard. I think those are two guys that that I really appreciate.
Another one would be Steve Hayner, former President of InterVarsity became a good friend before he went to be with the Lord. And over my tenure, he was a great mentor and just brought wisdom and he did that with so many people. Yeah, and he just was a great, I. As far as just walking in wisdom and perseverance.
Another guy that I would say is Tim McKibben. A. A business guy that loves Christ and has been a great mentor and friend, was on The Navigator Board for a number of years, and he's been an amazing friend, continues to be an amazing friend, and I learned so much from him. Because I came into the role as President of The Navigators, not because I had training in how to be a C E O.
I had never been a CEO. I had been a field staff person and he was a great influence and coach and mentor to me on how to lead an organization, and he brought a great help.
[00:15:38] Tommy Thomas: You've been out of office now for I guess almost a year now. What have you been doing lately?
[00:15:43] Doug Nuenke: It's really fun, Tommy. I look back over this last year the first thing Pam and I did, and it was such a blessing to leave my role and leave well, so to speak. We had a good succession plan Sometime, we can talk about that. But left. The Lord had really used us, used, my wife and I, used me as a leader and we were leaving behind some good things.
And so because of that, we were able to we did a Grati-tour. That's what we called it, a Grati-tour. We took five months and we traveled around the country. We didn't get to see everybody, but we stopped in major cities and big places where we had groupings of Navigators, and we let them decide what they wanted it to look like.
The first job of a leader is to define reality. And the last job is to say thank you. We took that seriously.
In some cases, a small group of people around a dinner table. In other cases, they pulled a big group of people together and had me speak. But the number one job for me, or what God had put on our heart was just to go around and say thank you. I can't remember who it was. You may know some leader -writer person that writes about leadership talk about the first job of a leader is to define reality. And the last job is to say thank you. We took that seriously. For five months we did that. Then we went on sabbatical, and we traveled some and we moved from Colorado Springs up here to Denver area.
And a good bit of reflection and seeking God for what's. So that's what we've been, that's what we've been up to.
[00:17:12] Tommy Thomas: What questions you been, have you been asking yourself likely?
[00:17:15] Doug Nuenke: As I've been in the sabbatical God's, as he is prone to do, when we slow down, right Tommy, when we slow down, we can hear his voice. And he has been. He's been speaking some great lessons in the depth of my heart, challenging me in how I've operated here. I'm 64 years old and I look back and go, oh, stink. I wish I had learned some of these lessons when I was 44 years old, or 34 years old, I didn't, and I'm still learning.
And so there's some challenging things that he is brought to me. And I think the major question I'm asking, is if I can have courage and faith to heed God's call on my life to continue to do that, and particularly in some new ways that he's opening up and asking me to live. Yeah.
[00:18:13] Tommy Thomas: What do you understand about leadership today that maybe you didn't understand a year ago?
[00:18:19] Doug Nuenke: I think it's just been driven more home to me - the importance of leading as a we, it's the way I like to say it. A we as opposed to being isolated. And some of the things I've been reading over the sabbatical just the importance of bringing, trusted God to bring good people around us. And and that would be one thing.
And then the other one would be just the incredible privilege that we have as leaders. To leave behind a next generation that can flourish and can honor him and give him glory and can see more and more people come to faith. I think it's just, that's been re-emphasized in my life that the Lord's been saying about that we as leaders have an amazing - Privilege and Opportunity. When we're, when we have a role of leadership, God has placed us there for influence. And the greatest influence we can have is that next generation coming up.
[00:19:23] Tommy Thomas: Let’s go back to the pandemic for a minute. You led during the latter part of your administration. You dealt with that and a lot of us learned to do things differently and to do different things. Was there anything you learned in the pandemic that may have been a paradigm shift that you can take into the future or that you would tell other leaders that might, we might do different?
[00:19:46] Doug Nuenke: Yeah. I think one, a passage that was important to me, I Peter 5 – the first couple verses says to the elders, among you, I appeal as a fellow elder.
This is Peter talking to that group of churches, a witness of Christ's suffering, and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed. And here's what he says to him. Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care. And I think the big lesson that I took away from the pandemic. The importance of, and this is coming from a guy that likes to move forward, I like to keep moving forward.
And it doesn't matter whether it's a pandemic or what's going on, I want to keep moving forward. I'm a knucklehead that way, and
I think what the Lord really taught me was there's times where the people that we serve the flock under our care are stuck and they're struggling, and while, yes, it may be helpful for them to continue to move forward in some little ways that might even actually be healthy and cathartic for 'em, more importantly, is they need to experience leaders who have empathy and are willing to listen and who are willing to acknowledge the human condition that all of us are facing and the weight of.
To not ignore. I can remember sitting at in my home on a Zoom call looking outside with the snow falling, and it had been cloudy in Colorado Springs. It doesn't get cloudy that often. It had been cloudy for three days straight, which never happens.
And I was feeling a little depressed. It felt like I had this blanket that was just hanging over me. And it just, it was at that moment the Lord said. Yeah. How many people around the country that you lead, do you think are feeling under. Under the weight of this.
And so I think that was a big lesson that I, that the Lord really gave me to have empathy, to listen, take, acknowledge the pain that people are, that we all were in.
I need to acknowledge that for myself too. . .
[00:22:01] Tommy Thomas: What does the future look like? You've had some time to think about it – to reflect. At 64, you are a young man.
[00:22:06] Doug Nuenke: I am, I'm excited for the future. I think the god that God has reemphasized to me the importance of, as I've shared, ever since I was a 15-year-old with my two brothers I think reemphasizes a lot of my life's contribution to the kingdom of God is developing leaders. And so whether it's inside The Navigators or outside, I think the Lord's given me a new vision and a new energy to really steward at the experiences that I've had as a senior leader. And to be able to come alongside and be a mentor and a coach to leaders in the body of Christ, in Parachurch Ministries, Churches to come alongside. We all need someone. I think some of my success or flourishing as a leader was because of mentors that God brought around me and I'm seeing that I have the opportunity and I think even a sense of calling to be that for others going forward.
Tommy Thomas: I hope you've enjoyed these conversations with Doug non-key. I'm thankful to Doug for taking the time from his sabbatical to be with us. If you're a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. If there are topics or areas you'd like for me to explore, please let me know. My email is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
You may have noticed that instead of show notes, I've started including a full transcript of the podcast. And you can also find my email address there. If you're listening on an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. The higher number of positive reviews we get. The more often the podcast is recommended to others by the social media algorithms.
A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on. Please share the show with others. If you like receiving your content in written form, follow me on LinkedIn. We're often a post excerpts from each podcast. Thank you so much for listening up to this point. And for the words of encouragement, I hear from many of you. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Join us next week as our guests will be Bill Hendricks and Bev Godby from The Giftedness Center in Dallas. Until then, I stay the course on our journey to make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Navigators
Leading Without Power – Finding Hope in Serving Community by Max De Pree
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Doug Nuenke: I loved sports as a young man. I participated in pretty much every opportunity I had. But when we moved from Chicago down to Texas, I was 4’11”and weighed a hundred pounds. I was a freshman in high school – 4’11” – 100 pounds - and I had the audacity and stupidity of going out for football in Texas
[00:00:23] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Doug Nuke, the retired President & CEO of The Navigators. I first met Doug several years ago when The Navigators retained Job Fit Matters, the company that I work for to conduct a search for their Chief Development Officer. I remember being somewhat nervous about that shirt because at least they told us that this was only going to be the second time that the navigators were going to bring in a non-lifelong Navigator to the president's cabinet. And that was that was a bit daunting. The thing I remember about that search was the way Doug managed it. As a search consultant, you always want to have access to the CEO. You don't always get it.
In this case, Doug certainly gave us ample access, but I think as important, he had pointed Bill Tell, who had been a lifelong Navigator to be our liaison and Bill's presence and assistance, coupled with our access to Doug, I thought made for a good search. Doug's a graduate of Texas Christian University, Dan, and enjoyed a great football season this year pulling for the Horned Frogs.
Doug, welcome to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership
[00:01:36] Doug Nuenke: Tommy, it's great to be with you this morning, man. What a blessing to get caught up after all these years.
[00:01:43] Tommy Thomas: It is. That was a great search. We still talk about that. It was things just went right. God blessed us with a good pool of people.
[00:01:50] Tommy Thomas: He blessed you with a. Gosh, a guy, I guess it served 10 or 12 years. And so that was that's always exciting for us.
[00:01:57] Doug Nuenke: It was a great experience. And you led that process so well, Tommy, and it was dicey. It was a dicey situation, but the Lord was very gracious to bring us to a very good result.
[00:02:10] Tommy Thomas: Before we get too deep into your professional career, I always wanna start back at an earlier time in people's childhood and maybe tell me or tell us what's the happiest memories memory of your childhood.
[00:02:20] Doug Nuenke: Yeah, that's an easy one. We moved around a lot when I was a kid, and my dad would take me fishing wherever we lived. And it was all over the country. Wherever we lived, he would take time to take me fishing and we got out into the outdoors. It was the beginning of my great love for the outdoors and my dad invested that time and we had great adventures. All over, whether it's rivers, lakes we would find someplace where there was some kind of body of water and we would catch anything that was in there.
We were not snobbish fly fisherman. I'm a fly fisherman today, so maybe I've gotten more snobby, but whatever we would catch catfish. Eels in the Potomac River we would get out and about. So those are, that's my fondest memory.
[00:03:10] Tommy Thomas: Moving on, I guess a little bit from that to experiences that you think shaped you as a man.
[00:03:14] Doug Nuenke: Some of the experiences I remember that have shaped me, one, without a doubt was being an older brother. I am the oldest of three sons and each of us are three years apart. So I'm the oldest and then cascading down and I would my, I was put in charge of my brothers for often, during my life and my parents. My love for the outdoors and adventures. It wasn't uncommon for my parents to drop the three of us off someplace on the side of the road to go hiking, fishing. on an adventure out in the, outdoors someplace.
And even as a 15-year-old, which would've put down to 12 and nine, my youngest brother would've been nine. I was stewarded with being able to take care of him and not just take care of him, but to actually go out and make memories. And I think that formed me as a man and it formed me as a leader.
Because to this day, I still do the same thing with whoever God has entrusted me with. One of my fondest joys in leadership is pulling a team together. Pulling people together and making memories. So that's one without a doubt. That started when I was really young and then it probably played itself out in some different ways.
I was the tennis captain for a high school tennis team, and I brought that same joy of bringing people together in that situation. Another memory experience that formed me was we moved around a lot and we were just, one year we'd moved from Chicago down to Texas. Now Texas and Chicago are different.
Tommy, they're different places. Texas is its own country. And I moved as a Yankee down there to Texas. And was just one year in to live there, a year and a half into living there. And I, the opportunity opened for me to run for a student council post, and I had to get up in front of the whole student body and give a speech.
[00:05:36] Doug Nuenke: And here was this guy that did not speak Texan. Up in front of the whole student body, give a speech and woo myself into getting elected, which I did. Amazingly, I look back and go, how my campaign slogan was “Don’t be a monkey, Vote for Nuenke”. Pretty catchy. Huh? relaxed. That's right.
[00:06:01] Tommy Thomas: Just think you could, what you could have done with a TikTok campaign. .
[00:06:04] Doug Nuenke: Oh my. . .
[00:06:07] Tommy Thomas: What do you think is about the great outdoors that that makes for a good team building environment?
[00:06:12] Doug Nuenke: The Lord made it, so that's gotta be part of it, right? . And I think for a lot of us as leaders, we can get in a rut of meeting with people at an office over desks or even, even at restaurants or at coffee shops. But there's something that opens our eyes up to God's goodness. It's creation, recreation, recreating together. Think of that word recreating. Recreating together with the people that God entrusts to us. I think that must be part of it as I think about it. That's a great question.
[00:06:51] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned team sports and playing tennis. what did you bring away from team sports that, that helped form you as a leader?
[00:06:59] Doug Nuenke: Yeah. I moving down to Texas from Chicago. I loved sports as a young man. I participated in pretty much every opportunity I had. But when we moved from Chicago down to Texas, I was four 11 and weighed a hundred pounds. I was a freshman in high school, four 11, a hundred pounds, and I had the audacity and stupidity of going out for football in Texas.
[00:07:26] Doug Nuenke: Yeah. I hadn't heard about Friday night Lights. But I went out and even in that, I think there's something about being together with others in a team environment and the camaraderie that has formed. Even for me, I didn't play one play for my whole year. I think they were afraid to put me out on the field, what, how I might have gotten hurt.
And that's when I shifted to tennis, but it was the camaraderie, it was the memories, it was the building of people together, that was beyond. Just even the score on the page at the end of the match, there were friendships that were built. I don't know if you're probably familiar with this book, Boys in the Boat.
[00:08:08] Tommy Thomas: Oh, yes. I love that book.
[00:08:10] Doug Nuenke: And that book speaks of the camaraderie. When people are brought together, people from different backgrounds it levels the playing field. You're joining together in a common cause, and it does something you never forget it and it forms us as people, I think, because we form one another. It's how God designed us to be in community. Proverbs 27:17 “as iron sharpens the iron, so one man sharpens another”. And I can think of very few places that happens as profoundly as in team sports. . .
[00:08:48] Tommy Thomas: When you got to TCU, how did you decide on your major
[00:08:54] Doug Nuenke: That's a great question. I went to TCU thinking I was gonna be a doctor, and two things happened. One, as I found a fraternity my freshman year and my grades slipped. And then the next thing that happened was I found the Lord and I had a great group of believers that were around me that poured into my life helped me see a different kind of life that I could live.
And nothing against pre-med. I, still at times go, oh man, I wish I had become a doctor, but I think more so the Lord was leading me in a different way. And I ended up choosing social work because I just saw social. As an opportunity to grow in people skills and in being able to serve others.
I didn't know much at that time, but I was beginning to get a hint that the Jesus life was about serving others, so I ended up choosing social work.
Tommy Thomas: What are what are people always surprised to find out about you?
[00:10:02] Doug Nuenke: One of 'em, which I've alluded to already is that I moved nine times before I was 18 do the math. That's, just every other year pretty much. . So that was, that's something people are surprised because I don't think that's an experience that most people have. Another one that is fun, it wasn't fun at the time was being on an erupting volcano. We were on a mission trip in Indonesia with a group of friends, and we were on a volcano that hadn't erupted in 16 years, and it chose to erupt on the day that we were climbing on the top.
We were on the very top. Wow. We could take a whole podcast and I could tell you that story, but we don't have time today for that. But that's one that surprises people. And it certainly surprised me that day
[00:11:00] Tommy Thomas: Anytime I've talked to somebody that's spent their adult life with an organization like The Navigators, Cru, InterVarsity or Young Life, I like to ask the question “when you joined the organization, did you think it would be a career”?
[00:11:06] Doug Nuenke: Now? It's a good question. I'm really not sure. My wife Pam and I have been on staff of the navigators for over 30 years now. But before that we had another life. we had eight years on a church staff in Denver. And I was with another Parachurch ministry for about five years, which we loved that time.
Still are friends with the people that we serve with there. Still connect with them and serve in different ways. So I'm not sure that I saw it as a career, but I know that regardless of the job that I have, how I earn my income in the years ahead in this Pam and I will always be navigators in that spirit of who the navigators are.
We love the mission of the navigators. We love the mission, the commitment to be advancing the gospel, the commitment to be raising up disciples and disciple makers.
And because we believe it so strongly, we believe it's God's call and every believer to live that way, right? And so no matter what we do, In the future, whatever we do from a job standpoint, we'll always, so to speak, be navigators, I think it's Christ call on all of us, but we love that the navigators focus on that.
[00:12:27] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about the first time you actually led a staff team?
[00:12:38] Doug Nuenke: This is a really a profound memory for me. I was a senior in college at TCU and we were involved with a campus ministry that was student led, completely student led. It was called the Wednesday Night Bible Study. Can you guess which night it met on Tommy? I see where this is. I see where this is going.
Yeah. Pretty creative name, huh? The Wednesday Night Bible Study, but it was happening ministry there and it, we had hundreds of students involved, but as it came about my senior year, I was asked to lead that campus ministry as a student. And I can remember, like it was yesterday, sitting in my dorm, in my room, the house actually, I was living with a group of guys in the house off campus, sitting in my room realizing that I was gonna be leading the leadership team that night.
The team, and these were people who had influenced me to come to faith three years. God had used them to win me to himself. I could go around the room, I can envision the picture the faces of them right now. I can and think of the personalities they have, the gifts they had and how they had influenced me.
And here I was my senior year being asked to lead them. That was humbling in itself. But I can remember sitting in my. Beginning to try to put some thoughts together. How in the world am I gonna do this? I have no idea. I've never done this before. And the lord one, one thing the Lord does was I'm gonna turn here real quickly.
First Timothy chapter four. God spoke to me outta the scriptures as I was calling out to him that, that afternoon he, he spoke, he encouraged me and these are the words that he gave me. The beginning of some words he gave me. He says, don't let anyone look down on you because you're young, but set an example for the believers in Speech and Life, in Love in and in purity until I come. Devote yourself to the public reading of scripture, to preaching and to teaching. Do not neglect your gift, which has given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you. Be diligent in these matters. Give yourself holy to them so that everyone may see your progress.Watch your. and you're doctrine closely.
And I read those words and the Lord encouraged me. And then all of a sudden, the Lord just started giving me things outta the scripture reminded me of scripture that I had read over the years and things that I could pass on. He gave me my first team meeting notes,
There I was, I can see where I was sitting. I was in my room. I was on my knees. and really crying out because I was scared. It's what in the world have I gotten myself into? And I think that not only helped me that day, and it really was profound because it gave me that group, it gave me their hearts for that year of ministry that we were moving into together.
But it also started a pattern. For the way that I would live and the way that I would lead for the rest of my life to this, up to this time was dependence on God for the words to say and being devoted to the scriptures and knowing the scriptures and having, to the best that I'm able to be a conduit to others of God's message and the truth and the encourage from the scriptures.
[00:16:39] Tommy Thomas: So fast forward a little bit. What kind of leader training program does The Navigators have today?
Doug Nuenke: I'll just briefly just say we and actually I would say during my tenure for the 13 years that I was the US President for the navigators, along with some other truly devoted leaders that served right there with me in it, we saw God really develop not only leadership programs, but a culture of leadership.
[00:17:15] Doug Nuenke: And we prayed about that early on. This is 13 or so years ago. We prayed, Lord, won't you give us a culture in The Navigators of leader development so that all leaders, all staff see the importance of being developed themselves and take it seriously to be developing those that follow them. And so at another time, we could talk about some of the ways that we've set up some programs, but it's had a profound influence. In fact, I would probably say, and I think others would say that during my tenure, the one most important thing that I was able to lead behind was a strong development bias. A bias for developing people and a culture of leader development, but also, Hundreds of staff who have been developed and who are on a path towards increased development over their careers with the navigators. It's exciting.
Tommy Thomas: When you think back on those 13 years, what skills or competencies did you use most often?
[00:18:19] Doug Nuenke: One of them has gotta be, My, my Greatest Heart, which is already coming out all the way from starting out with my two brothers, going on Adventures to Tennis team to different aspects of leader development. Psalm 7:17-18 is a short passage that almost brings me to tears because it's so important to me in my heart of hearts.
Psalm 71, verse 17 says, since my youth, oh God, you have taught me. And to this day, I declare your marvelous deeds. Verse 18, even when I'm old and gray, do not forsake me, oh God, till I declare your power to the next generation. Your might to all who are to come.
So without a doubt, one of the skills or competencies I brought was this whole area of developing the next generation of leaders, developing the bench.
[00:19:25] Doug Nuenke: Every organization is one generation from extinction and organizations that do not major in leader development will have to depend on outside resources to be able to fuel what God has started in the first place. And that's not a bad thing. God does that. God brings people from the north, south and the east and the west to accomplish his purposes.
So, it's not a negative thing. But as far as it depends on us. I think our job is develop those behind us to so and so to speak, work our way out of a job. So that's one of, without a doubt. If I only did one thing, no matter what job I've had my whole life, I've done that. And then the second one is coalition building.
Bringing people together. Philippians 1:27 talks about. Paul's joy in seeing the Philippians striving as one for the sake of their calling. It's striving as one, bringing unity and we all know that Satan's number one job is to divide us, is to try to get us, polarized and not able to work together.
[00:20:41] Doug Nuenke: And organizations like the Navigators and other parachurch and churches are not immune to having disparate, different opinions and not just different opinions, but even division sometimes between groups. And I would say that what I just love trusting God to build coalitions because the navigators have been blessed by God to become more diverse over the years.
And by diverse, different gifts, politically diverse. As far as ethnicity diverse. And with that comes different opinions and which is really the beauty of all that God's created, right? It's beautiful to have pe different kinds of people together, but I think coalition building was one of the ones that, that I had to use and that I enjoyed using, was bringing people with different opinions, different methodologies, different ways of viewing different topics together, and finding a way forward.
[00:21:42] Tommy Thomas: Staying with that, The coalition building and collaboration. I understand that the presidents of many of the parachurch ministries of the United States get together periodically, and I've heard people at Cru and InterVarsity talk about that. Can you tell us about that? What that was like for you? You’ve got many women to sit around the table and collaborate and be in the, be all in the kingdom. Work together.
[00:22:03] Doug Nuenke: Yeah. We met the couples. It was the presidents of Cru, Young Life, Youth for Christ, The Navigators, InterVarsity and FCA. We would meet together with our spouses two times a year for two and a half days had meals together and do life together. It was powerful that we became deep friends because we went through challenges together. In some cases we were challenges that were in the body of Christ, in our culture that we were all dealing with. And in other cases, it was personal things that we were going through.
And the Lord really knit our hearts together. and it was powerful too for the learning that took place. What an amazing group of people to learn from. I came away with journals full of notes and humble, often humbled . I go my, oh my, they have their act together. So much more than we have. I could take this back and really learn and help my team learn from some of these aspects and vice versa. There were things that The Navigators were doing that other benefited from. We miss those times not being in that seat anymore.
Tommy Thomas: In the past couple years two of your colleagues have gone on to be with the Lord Denny Rydberg of Young Life, and most recently Steve Douglas of Cru, What do you remember about these two men and their leadership contribution to the nonprofit sector and to the kingdom of God?
[00:23:38] Doug Nuenke: What two Godly, passionate, fun men that are now with Jesus.
I think for both Steve and Denny, their passion to see more and more people come to Christ would have to be one of them without a doubt. And it didn't matter who, but particularly because of the focus of those two missions. It was students, college students, and high school, junior high kids. And they just had such a passion for that.
And it exuded out of them. And the, it gave energy to the missions that they led. I think when I think. Steve Douglas, I think in his heart for partnerships, he was always working to try to bring groups together to do more together than they could separately. And he, without a doubt left a, a lot of those partnerships are continuing on to this day that he helped put in place because of that passion.
[00:24:41] Doug Nuenke: And so more kingdom stuff is getting done these days because of that. Passion that Steve had in bringing people together and those partnerships going on and with Denny without a doubt, his creativity and growing young life, I the mission of Young Life grew so much over the years under his leadership and continues to grow under Newt Crenshaw's leadership.
[00:25:05] Doug Nuenke: But Denny's creativity that he brought to take young life from where it was when he started and really invest the time was fun to watch and be someone to be able to see that and then to be able to learn from him over the years while he was in that role and before he went to be with the Lord.
I hope you're enjoying this conversation as much as I am for me, the time has flown by. I probably should have expected as much when I read Doug's email to me confirming the details. He said, I'm looking forward to hanging with you brother. We're going to have a lot of fun.
Join us next week as we continue this conversation. Doug will take us deeper into his leadership journey with The Navigators.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Navigators
Boys in the Boat - Nine Americans and Their Epic Quest for Gold at the 1936 Berlin Olympics
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Today, we're continuing the conversation that we started last week with Jack Briggs. Jack retired from the air force as a Three-Star General. After that he worked for NYU as their Vice President for Global Resilience and Security, before accepting the call to be the president and CEO of the Springs Rescue Mission in Colorado Springs.
One of the things that Jack has been doing since retiring from the Air Force is conducting a workshop on Crisis Planning, Mitigation, and Leadership. If you work for an organization that is a member of the CityGate Network, your organization may have had Jack conduct this workshop for its board and staff.
If not you're in for a treat today. During the next few minutes, Jack's going to be sharing with us some of the highlights of that workshop and maybe some of his experiences with dealing with crises. If the content of what Jack shares strikes a chord with you, Jack's been kind enough to share his contact data with us. It will be in the show notes.
[00:00:00] Jack Briggs: So, crises are happening all around us. It's the organization that sits down before a crisis happens and starts to think about their framework that will tend to do better.
[00:00:11] Tommy Thomas: Today, we're continuing the conversation that we started last week with Jack Briggs. Jack retired from the air force as a Three-Star General. After that he worked for NYU as their Vice President for Global Resilience and Security, before accepting the call to be the president and CEO of the Springs Rescue Mission in Colorado Springs.
[00:00:34] Tommy Thomas: One of the things that Jack has been doing since retiring from the Air Force is conducting a workshop on Crisis Planning, Mitigation, and Leadership. If you work for an organization that is a member of the CityGate Network, your organization may have had Jack conduct this workshop for its board and staff.
[00:00:53] Tommy Thomas: If not you're in for a treat today. During the next few minutes, Jack's going to be sharing with us some of the highlights of that workshop and maybe some of his experiences with dealing with crises. If the content of what Jack shares strikes a chord with you, Jack's been kind enough to share his contact data with us. It will be in the show notes.
Jack Briggs: Thank you for the opportunity and I've enjoyed the discussion so far. As a former military leader and now and then as the Vice President of Global Resiliency for the 15 campuses in 11 countries at NYU And then finally, now as CEO of a rescue mission where we have a semi volatile population at times, depending on how things are going, it's not lost on me that crises happen.
[00:01:44] Jack Briggs: Tommy, I'll ask you a question right off the bat. What's a crisis to you?
[00:01:47] Tommy Thomas: Maybe when I lose control of something and can't see my way out.
[00:01:52] Jack Briggs: Okay. All right. So it's this oppressive thing that happens in your mind is just, it's like how fast can my mind move to try to solve this thing?
And that's common. That is essentially the reaction that people have when a crisis occurs. And the way to get past that moment is to have a framework of decision making, an ability to identify and mitigate risk. We talked a little bit about risk already and then what kind of actions you're gonna want to take right off the bat.
And then finally, I would say that probably one of the things that we don't think about enough, but we really need to practice before something happens is how do you message what you're trying to do as you're working through the crisis. When I look at a crisis gosh, there's all kinds.
Hurricane Katrina hit a hospital and several patients died. They were sued. So, it's a it was a catastrophic loss of life and they were sued. And the reason they were sued, and the reason these folks died is they lost power. They lost power to the facility because their emergency generator was in the basement.
And when it flooded, the neighborhood lost power. And then of course, their emergency generator lost power. People couldn't get the power that they needed, and some people expired.
Harvey Weinstein is a great example of a crisis in behavior. If you could have a behavior crisis in your organization where someone makes a mistake that is beyond just “oops, I made a mistake”, but it's culpable for either an illegal activity or for something that could cause harm to equipment or people.
We have cyber crises all the time in organizations now, because the, at the rescue mission, we have donor information, right? So, we want to keep that secure. If we were to get hacked and breached, that's a crisis because now we're exposing data on our donors. And then there's, you see it all the time, active threats.
It's people going into schools, it's people at Walmart. It's all of those. So, crises are happening all around us. It's the organization that sits down before a crisis happens and starts to think about their framework that will tend to do better.
When I think about this as a decision maker, a couple of questions I'd like to ask is:
- What's your organizational culture in a crisis?
- Are you panicky or are you methodical.
- What organizational structure do you use in a crisis?
Meaning are you gonna use the same structure with the CEO down during a crisis or are you gonna break off a tiger team that's gonna be your op center? Think about these. Who's gonna solve what problem in your structure?
Because too often in organizations that haven't practiced any of this it's six-year-old soccer, everybody runs to the ball, whatever that is, and they don't stay in their lane and solve the problem they should solve, whether it's logistics or communications or whatever. It's how do you make decisions?
That's a process. How do you communicate? These are all kind of questions that when I get with a, a group, an organization, we sit down and we peel through these to try to understand from their perspective, how would they answer those questions. And typically we determine gaps when we ask these questions, the process should result in.
A crisis is not something you solve, you don't solve a crisis, you solve problem.
Something where you have a crisis and a crisis is not something you solve, you don't solve a crisis, you solve problems. What you have to do is you have to create or build a way to move the crisis into a solvable problem and then have some procedures that you use to solve that kind of problem.
Power outage weather problem a reputational problem. You come up with tools to solve these problems over time. When you have these problems and you do it routinely, the problems just become issues that you know how to deal with. And then once you've done that over a period of time, quite frankly, what used to be a crisis just becomes a day-to-day thing.
It's gonna happen. You have your PR procedures in place, and you take care of them. So you decrease the drama and the trauma of a crisis to a day-to-day thing. The first thing to do in that process is to understand risk. And you heard me say this, like what is at risk? But another thing is how much risk can you tolerate?
[00:06:15] Jack Briggs: Now, I gotta be honest with you. I was a fighter pilot. I have always been an athlete. I have always been a bit of a risk taker. My risk tolerance is high. I need to know that because I might see something happen and go, eh, I, we'll deal with it. I need people around me who are not at the same.
[00:06:34] Jack Briggs: This is what diversity is about. It's finding people that are different than you and bringing them into the team with the same objective, but seeing it from a slightly different perspective because they're gonna see things that you don't. And that's key because there's always blind spots. There's three I use b basically three magic words to determine what's at risk and how I want to address this.
Three magic words: Probability, Likelihood and Severity
In the three magic words. The first is probability. So probability means if I flip a coin, the probability is gonna turn up heads. It's 50%, right? But I also use the word likelihood. Let's say I take that same coin and I flip it a hundred times, and 80 times it comes up heads, okay? The probability that I'm gonna flip it that next time is 50%.
That's the math, but the likelihood that it's gonna come up, heads, again, is higher. And you have organizational likelihoods. Let me give you an example. Your front door is unlocked and is exposed to the street. It is more likely that someone could come in with a knife than if you had the door locked. The likelihood is higher.
[Now, the probability may be very low for the area that you live in, but the likelihood is higher. . And the last thing is severity. I mentioned this before, just what is at risk? How severe is the risk? So when you define that risk, now you start to mitigate things. You say, okay, we're gonna lock the door, or we're gonna have a scan, a scanner, or something like that.
But you can't mitigate every risk out because somebody could hide a knife coming into your building. So you have to plan for how you're gonna respond to that. So when we talk about the elements of decision making, I will tell you the first one is the perfect is the enemy of the good. Okay? All too often people are trying to get the perfect decision.
I used to say in higher ed that my academic friends were the smartest people I'd ever met. But when it came to crises, they loved to admire the problem. What does the library have to say about this? Is there any good research on this crisis? And I would say to them, we don't have time for that, we have to make the 80% solution or the 70% solution, and we have to keep moving because our time available may not be as much as we would like, or how many resources do we have available?
Another one is when you're doing decision making these ideas of blind spots, you need to have people in the room that see it different than you and feel it different than you. And I mean that by gut feel. Okay, let so I'll ask you, Tommy, when you make decisions based on their, your gut, is it typically turn out well or not so good?
[00:09:26] Tommy Thomas: Oh, me. I don't know. Probably not as good as it could have.
[00:09:30] Jack Briggs: Okay. I will tell you that my, I have a bad gut. All right. And here's why. Because my risk tolerance is so high. When I see something happen, I'm willing to wade into it because my risk tolerance is so high. It's not that I'm a bad person because I have a bad gut. It's just my risk tolerance is so high, I recognize that. Somebody may be super risk intolerant, and so every time they see something, they're like, oh, we can't do that.
You need people around you that are feeling it slightly different than you, so that you get that balanced and they have to have the confidence that when they speak up, you're not gonna take their head off.
Tommy Thomas How do you balance that? Somebody like you who's got a high-risk tolerance, and somebody who's afraid they open the door? Hopefully you'll have too many of those on your team, but how do you negotiate that?
[00:10:18] Jack Briggs: For me, because I know that my gut's not all that good, I try to do the opposite of what my gut says.
So if my gut says, let's do it, I'm like, wait a minute, maybe we need to think about that. And I'll go get somebody else's opinion, right? So I build a team of people around me who are empowered to speak up. No, I have the final authority and responsibility. That's key. I own it, but I'm also acknowledging the fact that I don't know all the answers.
As we move into these things, when we talk about decision making when something happens to you and it surprises you, you're it. What fires in your head is your amygdala, which is way back here in the old part of your head, in your brain. It's the small thing, and that's that fight or flight thing.
Something happens and it surprises you and you've probably had that happen to you. Maybe you step off a street corner to cross a side a road and a car almost hits you because you didn't see it, and you'll freeze for just that moment. And what you've gotta do is you've gotta get yourself into a process where, when that happens, you start to make decisions that may be even automated because your decision making is back here and you're frozen and you gotta get it up here in your frontal lobe, which is where you speak and rationalize and problem solve, right?
You’ve got to get your decision making from there to there. And there's ways to do that. The very first thing is you must control your reaction. So I'll use my hands. Okay? if something happens, and this is the scale of the top, of the scale of reaction. Okay. And I react right here As the leader, I give everybody around me, almost no room.
Now, why am I, why is my, are my fingers above my reaction? Because the natural tendency of your staff and people that work for you is they wanna react just a little bit more than you do. And it's psychological. It's because they want to show you that they're as bought into whatever it is or more than you are, right?
They wanna show you their commitment. So, if I react here and their little space is right here, this is called panic. What I have to do as a leader is I have to react way down here as low as I can, and then push it even lower every time so that I give them all this space to respond.
To take that moment to absorb what's happening, not use the present body reaction, but my mental past, present, and future process to act, not to react, but to respond, right? And so you build these processes in. One of the best ways to do that is to lay out some things for your staff. The first is, “what's the information I as the leader want to know?”
I need to tell them that ahead of time so that when something happens and we respond, that they know what to respond with. And the first thing that my staff needs to tell me when something's wrong is anybody hurt? Is anything broke? Is anybody in jail? Okay. They know that's the answer. That is the first answer.
And what that does is it starts to move them from here. to hear because they know respond, responding wise. That's what I'm gonna ask. Now they start to think, they're starting to think about the next thing to answer that. The second is my intent. My intent is to protect people, protect property, and protect our reputation.
As a nonprofit, my reputation is key. I can have bad stuff happen, but if my reputation is I can handle it, I, my, my reputation actually can increase during a crisis, as an example. I like to practice this with tabletops with people. So, I'll have a staff meeting and I'll just throw out a problem and we'll walk through it.
I'll talk about how to do that here in just a second. Phone trees. You should know how to call everybody who is gonna help you solve the problem. The issue today is, and I'll pull it out is this thing. (Jack is referencing his cell phone) Yeah. So when I want to use this to make a phone call, I just tap somebody's name. What if I don't have my phone or what if the battery is dead?
Do I know their phone number, like their real number, like the digits of their number? Probably not. So, I have to have that written down somewhere on a piece of paper that's near my desk. So, I'm literally pulling from underneath my desk. I can't really, it's hard to see. Yeah. But that's a phone tree on the back of a checklist that I have that's laminated.
[00:15:08] Tommy Thomas: And everybody's got one of those,
[00:15:09] Jack Briggs: For all the people that you're gonna call? Yes, that's what we have. And it's got their phone number on it. If I have to use somebody else's phone, or if I have to get a land phone or I don't know, a payphone, I, you find one you would, that's what you would do.
The last thing here in tools is know your employees. So there's three tiers of employees. They're the first tier, are the people that are, have to be at work to do what they do. So at the Rescue Mission, that's shelters, supervisors, they gotta be there. The second group are people who don't have to be at work to do what they do, but they still have something to contribute during the event.
That could be maybe my marketing guys who turn into my press guys and my media people. Okay? The third are people that don't need to be at work and don't have anything to do at this moment. But that doesn't mean they're not important because they're the backfill for the first two groups, right? So maybe it's, I don't know, somebody in finance or something like that we don't need right now during the crisis.
But if we go longer than 12 hours, I need somebody who can fill in for the folks that need to go home and sleep, right? So I, we cross train people so that third tier becomes the backup for the other first two tiers.
So, when we do this I'll talk about this now, this idea of a checklist, and I just gave you one very simple one, which is anything broke or anybody hurt, anything broke, anybody in jail. But we also have, as I mentioned, these checklists. And these checklists are for senior leaders and for our point of service, meaning where people are actually engaged with clients and they're slightly different.
The Importance of a Checklist
[00:16:51] Jack Briggs: But the idea is the same. If you have something happen and you have a checklist that you can use, the military uses it, the medical community uses it. What it does is a checklist identifies threats ahead of time. So it reduces risk. It lays out the steps that you're gonna take ahead of time so that you have a process.
It's a common reference for everybody, so everybody knows what everybody else is doing. So you don't have to play six year old soccer. It enhances communication because now I know if you're running a checklist, you don't have to tell me everything you've done, you can just tell me the checklist is complete and it's done. And I know all the steps that you did in there. And it's proven, like I said, in the military aviation medicine. I'll give you two examples. The first is, as a pilot, if I want to land, what do you think one of my checklist items is,
[00:17:45] Tommy Thomas: Can you see the runway?
[00:17:46] Jack Briggs: Okay, that's a good one. Find the place you're gonna land. Yeah, that's a good one. The second one that I like to say is put the gear down. Yeah, okay. The landing gear, because if you don't put the landing gear down and land, that is called a crash, right? That's not a landing, that's a crash. This process that pilots go through is a checklist.
So if they don't forget things, Medicine. There's somebody in that or in the operating room that's running a checklist of how much equipment was used. Why do you think they do that?
[00:18:27] Tommy Thomas: I have an idea. What's left for the next surgery?
[00:18:29] Jack Briggs: That's one thing is yeah, equipment, supply, maintenance.
But it's also - Have they accounted for all of the sponges that they have? Oh, so that they don't leave a sponge in you or a scalpel. So there's someone detached back from the whole process cuz a surgeon is doing this four or five times a day and his muscle memory right is sponge in, sponge out, sponge in, sponge out.
He's repeating it so many times that he's not gonna be able to account for it every time. So, they use a checklist at the end before they close everybody up. They say, okay, we, we used eight sponges. I have seven sponges in the, the bowl. Oh, we're missing a sponge.
Oh, there it is. Pull it out, put it in there. Okay, now we've got all eight. That's this checklist mentality. So it does all of these things. It helps reduce risk, it helps you, make those first steps from here to here. And it helps everybody be on the same sheet of music. So checklists are really a valuable way to do this.
The OODA Loop – Observe, Orient, Decide, Act
The other piece to this is how do you make a decision Now, the Air Force, there's this guy named John Boyd, and he came up with this thing called the OODA loop. The first O is to observe. You observe what is happening. The second O is to orient. You orient your processes and your procedures to what is happening.
Nothing will ever go perfectly right on top. You have to adjust just slightly to get it to work. The third thing, the D, so it's observe, orient, decide what you're gonna do. Make a decision for goodness sakes that I tell people this all the time. Make a decision. Make one. If you're not sure which one to make err to the conservative, but make one.
Don't just hang there and then act. And once you've acted, you've observed oriented, you've decided now you've acted. Now observe the reaction to your action and do this process again. The speed of this initially is very fast because you're trying to get ahead of the problem. But as you start to get the problem in focus, it will slow down.
This is how you slow a crisis down. by making this pathway of decision making, right? And you're using your checklist as you do this, and your checklist is informed by the risk tolerance and the risk that you identify that your organization may be at in terms of probability, likelihood, and severity. So, this kind of all nest together, right?
Four Questions about Messaging
- What do we know?
- What don’t we know?
- What are we going to do about it?
- Who else needs to know?
Last thing we'll talk about is messaging. So there are four key questions. These are the E four things that my staff, once they've gotten themselves into this UTA loop business, is these four questions. The first is, what do we know? Now, when I say that, what do we know? As a fact? Don't hypothesize.
Don't tell me what you think. I want to know what do we know? And that could be a very small little group to start with. The second question, and this is probably the most important question of it all, is what don't we know? This is probably big, but you gotta empower your staff to be able to tell you. I don't know, honestly, I don't know.
Then the third question is what are we doing about it? That's a legitimate question. We, what are we gonna do to fill in the gaps of what we don't know? And then the last one is, who else needs to know? Now, a lot of CEOs will not understand what I'm saying here, not because they're not smart, it's because they're focused at the high level.
What they need to remember is folks lower in their organization typically are working bilaterally or laterally or with peers, maybe even peers outside the organization that would probably need to know about this. But as the CEO, I wouldn't know that. So, you gotta empower folks throughout the chain to be able to say who else needs to know about this?
That group over there. For us it might be the Red Cross or it might be another shelter or it might be, something like that where we gotta tell them because they may have to take clients or something. I don't know. So when we talk about this, the second element to there's really three elements to this in terms of communication.
Three Rings of Communication
- The People affected by the event
- The People who can affect the event
- Those who are neither affected by the event, nor can they affect the event.
The first is those four Q key questions. The second is, are the three rings of communication. So the first ring of communication is, let's imagine you have on a piece of paper, a star in the center of the pace paper. Okay. That star is the event. Okay. And I have, I draw a circle around that star those people.
Are the people affected by the event? Now let's go do higher ed here, and it's a dorm fire. Okay. So who would that be?
[00:23:28] Tommy Thomas: It'd be the residents and the resident advisors.
[00:23:33] Jack Briggs: Yeah, the people in the dorm, right? The second group of people would be a circle around that first circle that I did. Just a little bit farther out, a concentric circle.
[00:23:44] Jack Briggs: These people can affect the event. Who might that be?
[00:23:50] Tommy Thomas: The fire department. The police department. First responders.
[00:23:52] Jack Briggs: First responders, right? And then the third circle is even greater than that. And it's around it All. Those are the people that are neither affected by, nor can they affect the event, but they still need to be informed.
[00:24:09] Jack Briggs: Who might that be? That's
[00:24:10] Tommy Thomas: the general public or the parents of the parents.
How do you handle the Press?
[00:24:14] Jack Briggs: Parents. Your kid is safe. They can't do anything about it, but they want to know. The other group at that is, is the press. The press cannot help you. But they want to know. So how do you talk to them?
And I will tell you that that can be the stickiest thing because people will respond to the press. So here's my press statement. I'll just give it out to you right now cuz this is my press statement. We're aware of the situation, we're taking the appropriate actions and working with our community partners.
[00:24:43]When we have further information, we will inform the community. Done. That gives me about an hour. . Okay. Now I have had, when this happens, I've had reporters say, so you'll call me back when you know more. I said, Nope. When we know more information, we will let the community know. I don't, because I don't work for the reporter.
[00:25:04] Yeah. That they have a job. I totally get what their job is. But I don't work for you. I work for the people that I'm trying to help and the people who can affect this situation. So how do we communicate to these people so that, that inner circle, the ones who are affected by it, you have to have some sort of big voice is what I like to call it.
[00:25:25] It's a loud thing that says, get out of the building. Maybe it's a fire alarm, maybe it's a stereo system, or something that announces it to the second medium voice. How do you talk to people who are gonna address the problem? In this particular case, it's 9 1 1, but maybe it's a internal communications capacity that you have with email or teams or Slack, or you need to have something that you can communicate internally with to address the problem.
[00:25:52] And the third thing is the small voice. And I like the small voice because it's people to people. Communication. You're now getting into the people that are involved. How are you going to solve this problem with the people that are going to help you do that? You need to know what you're gonna say. So you should have a canned sort of thing.
[00:26:11] You're gonna tell the press as an example. I use that, right? The way you practice all of this is you do this with tabletops, and tabletops are simply, you gather your team you, they're sitting around a table and you say, what if this happened? So let's say this I hear reports of loud bangs that sound like gunshots in the courtyard of my rescue mission.
What we know is that, and we also know that people are running around and panicking. We also know that we see people lying around in the courtyard. Now, if you're familiar with the rescue mission, you will know that people lie around, yeah. , that's what they do, right? So that's maybe that's not a shooter.
[00:26:55] We don't know, right? But we know that those are all facts. What we don't know is this, is it a shooting? , what's the impact of client, staff and neighbors? Has emergency services been called? Okay what are we gonna do about it? We're gonna communicate to our staff safety and security. We're gonna activate our emergency protocols or our crisis protocols.
[00:27:17] Jack Briggs: We're gonna get our checklists out, right? And we're gonna start to evaluate the situation. What do we observe? What do we orient ourselves to? What do we decide? What do we act? We get that loop going. And then who else needs to know? Community leaders, the mayor my board of directors, maybe the board members need to know.
And then finally, the press. Now again, I'm not gonna reach out to the press. If they call me, then I'll talk to you and this is just me as the CEO throwing this out on the table. And then we work through these and we just practice going through that process. and then periodically we'll do a little, more live activity.
You make sure that people around, you know that's gonna happen. And that leads to the, basically the last thing, which is partnerships and resources. You don't have to do this alone. You should pull in your local law enforcement and emergency services, your office of emergency management for your county or city.
[00:28:10] If you reach out to them and say, Hey, can you walk this with me? They'd be love. They'd love to, they get money to do it actually. I mean that literally they get money to do this. And then you'll use that for your planning and exercises and to build communications tools. There's apps that work, there's, if you get too complicated, you'll probably get out in front of your own headlights and doing that thing.
That's really when we talk. Decision making in a crisis. If you can build a framework, if you can identify the risks, what is at risk in your organization and what's the, the probability and the likelihood and the severity. What mitigation steps are you gonna take? What plans are you gonna create for the things that you can't mitigate?
[00:28:51] Jack Briggs: And then develop and practice acting through this process of checklists and this idea of observing, orienting, deciding and acting and observing and orienting and deciding and acting. And then build some messaging capacity for those that are affected, those that can affect it. And then the general public, or, those that can't fix it, but want to know you've got this kind of a package that you can then practice periodically.
If you do that you put yourself in your staff. Into a situation where a lot of these things that were crises over time become those problems that become just stuff, issues that you deal with, that you deal with on a day-to-day basis. And they are no longer crises.
[00:29:41] Tommy Thomas: We can get in trouble with gross generalizations, but what percentage of the nonprofit community do you think is aware of this or already? Maybe that's a be better way to put it – are ready for the crisis?
[00:29:57] Jack Briggs: I would say that some of the larger, larger nonprofits actually have offices that do this.
You think about a national nonprofit probably has folks that do this. My talk really is more for those smaller organizations that don't have the staffing to, to do this independently. And how do you do this as a, a smaller organization? And those organizations, the numbers aren't large.
Hope is not a plan – It’s just Hope
Yeah. I'll just put it that way. They're hoping, which is, hope is not a plan, by the way. It's not a plan. It just a hope. And so if you can do a little bit of this, you will instill confidence in the rescue mission world and in a lot of nonprofits that are social services, safety. Security is hospitality.
No one asks me what my volleyball court looks like, when they're gonna be a client here, they wanna know if they're gonna be safe. Yeah. So this is part of that.
[00:30:53] Tommy Thomas: Can you offhand, can you think of a crisis where you think the people responded and it and the proof was in the pudding, and then probably more where they didn't and the proof was was in that pudding also?
[00:31:07] Jack Briggs: Oh gosh. We've had so many of these shooters. But I'll, okay, so I'll give you the Parkland shooting, right? That's a Florida thing. A disaster, right? Just horrific, but there were acts of heroism and acts of decision making that saved people's lives.
One of the, in one of the hallways where the perpetrator was, and it's as an example people running all over the place inside the facility because when he was shooting, it was echoing, right? And so people thought the shots were coming from one direction and they were running towards them and away from them.
And there were two teachers, one teacher stuck their head out and and saw people running by and was grabbing them and bringing them in the classroom and put them in a storage closet now in, in the room. And had tens of people in that closet, right? A couple of classrooms down. A teacher was outside the room and froze, saw the shooter, froze shooter went that direction.
And so it, it's e even inside an event, you're gonna see things that happen. So training is always key. If you can get people to, there's the run, hide, fight of a thing. If you can get away. That is the thing, right? Escape if you can. There's no reason to take anybody on.
[00:32:33] Jack Briggs: There's none of that, right? If you can get away, if you gotta hide lock your door jam stuff in front of it be quiet. And if you gotta fight, you gotta fight, right? And fight dirty. I, I tell people one of my, one of my favorite pieces of equipment in a fight, a fire extinguisher.
Fire extinguishers are awesome. 100% of people don't like to have foam sprayed in their face a hundred percent. if you know you've got one of those that's got like a little hose on it and that person's coming in, you can surprise 'em from an angle and spray it right in their face.
That will incapacitate them for long enough for you to maybe tackle 'em or hit 'em with the, the fire extinguisher or do something like that. But you gotta cheat. This is not a fair fight at this point. that's not really the thing that I hope people take away from this, because what you can do way ahead way, way ahead, is have the doors locked so that the guy can't get in.
On a couple of these cases, the perpetrators have just walked in because somebody's kept the door open by jamming it open. because they don't like the idea of having to swipe in or, turn a key or something. Prevent a lot. Yeah. You can prevent a lot of this ahead of time.
[00:33:51] Tommy Thomas: Jack, this is great. This is great council. I'm sure the people that come to your CityGate seminars and workshops, walk away better equipped and thank you. Thank you. Hope yeah, this, I've had three or four people on and we've talked about this kind of thing, and I don't think we can ever hear enough about it. So, thank you for that part you're playing.
[00:34:13] Jack Briggs: If your listeners have any kind of questions or anything like that, it's jackbriggs@frontrightstrategies.com and just send me a note and we'll have a chat.
[00:34:29] Jack Briggs: Yeah. And that way if people wanna reach out and just chat about it, I'm happy. This is my goal, is to talk to people about this and help them understand their situation a little bit better.
I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I did Jack's comments on the importance of having a checklist brought back memories of someone else who lived and died by the checklist. In my mid-twenties, I was living in Birmingham, and I had a roommate who had been a C-130 pilot in Vietnam.
He didn't talk much about the war, but I can remember times when he would mention the checklist and how he would mentally go through the checklist as he prepared to land the C-130.
Jack mentioned his contact data, jackBriggs@frontrightstrategies.com. I've included this in the episode notes. If you look at the episode notes, you will find that rather than attempt to write cryptic show notes, I've started to include a transcript of the conversation.
Thank you for listening. I hope that you will share Jack's message on crisis planning, mitigation, and leadership with the nonprofit leaders in your network.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Springs Rescue Mission
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Jack Briggs - jackbriggs@frontrightstrategies.com or jack@contactfrs.com
[00:00:00] Jack Briggs: Hubris is the death nail to leadership. It's the poison dart in the heart of leadership because you'll believe the things that people tell you and you will be manipulated. You will get yourself into situations with finances or with power or with relationships that will be detrimental to the organization and your own personal development and career.
[00:00:25] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Jack Briggs, the President and CEO of the Springs Rescue Mission in Colorado Springs. Jack enjoyed a 31-year career in the United States Air Force, retiring as a major general. His final role in the Air Force was Director of Operations for the US Northern Command Headquarters in Colorado Springs.
Jack is a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. He ultimately got his doctorate in education from NYU. Along the way, he picked up master's degrees from Troy University, Budapest University of Economic Science, and the Air War College. Prior to joining the Springs Rescue Mission, Jack was a Vice President for Global resiliency and Security at NYU.
[00:01:08] Tommy Thomas: Jack, welcome to NextGen nonprofit leadership.
[00:01:11] Jack Briggs: Thank you. Great to see you again.
[00:01:14] Tommy Thomas: It's good to see you. I remember you and I met several years ago. You were, you and your family were visiting Nashville around Christmas time and I think a mutual friend of ours, John, and I'm drawing a Blake on his last name now, but he said, you need to have lunch with Jack.
He's thinking about what's after the Air Force, and it might be higher ed and I guess since I worked in higher ed a lot, John thought that would be a good idea. And as I remember it, you were two-star then and maybe up for your third star. I guess aside from the fact that I was having lunch with a two-star general, and he was asking me questions about his future, the thing I remembered that day was your family your wife and kids.
I don't remember the ages of the kids, but I remember their demeanor. I thought it was so impressive for them to sit and we spent an hour, probably an hour and 15 minutes at a Mexican restaurant and they just, they were engaging, and I thought, wow that's what a family looks like, so thank you.
[00:02:10] Jack Briggs: That's all their mom that has nothing to do. That's all their mom.
[00:02:13] Tommy Thomas: I'd like to start at the beginning. I'm thinking back on people's upbringing. What's your most beloved memory from your childhood?
[00:02:21] Jack Briggs: Wow. A lot of different things come to mind.
I think the thing that stands out more than anything else was on my mother's side. My grandfather was an immigrant from England. He was an orphan and came to the United States and was a dairy farmer, and we would go to the dairy farm in Vermont. my dad was in the army and so we were in a variety of different locations, but we always rallied there as a family.
And I just remember that very distinctly. I don't think I appreciated it as much as I I was a kid. But now I look back on that time where it was essentially our grandmother would kick us out the door after breakfast. We could eat outside for lunch and then we'd come back in for dinner.
But we were outside just enjoying being around family and playing as kids, and it was just really a wonderful time.
Tommy Thomas: Expanding on that a little bit. So maybe two or three things that you think shaped your career
[00:03:13] Jack Briggs: Yeah. I would say that probably the things that shaped me most when I was growing up, one, I was raised in a Christian family.
I think that foundation of respect for faith, respect for people. I think that was very pivotal. I think my decision to join the Air Force at a young age, I wanted to be a fighter pilot in the Air Force. And so that's what I ended up going to the Air Force Academy and then spending little over 30 years as an active-duty officer.
Obviously that was very influential and shaped who I was marrying somebody that compliments me, meaning she fills in those gaps that I don't have real solid in my own life. She does. And that helps a lot. I'd say those three things probably.
[00:03:56] Tommy Thomas: If your dad was in the army, a career Army Officer, how does the guy get the vision of being a fighter pilot in the Air Force?
[00:04:02] Jack Briggs: When I was a little kid, I was about eight years old, I saw the Thunderbirds fly and I said, I want to do that. And I was the kind of kid who was pretty focused. And so I started asking around, like, how do you do that? And my dad had some friends that had been in the Air Force and they talked about going to the Air Force Academy.
And so I looked that thing up in the World's book Encyclopedia. And said, okay, that's what I want to do. And took a trip out to Colorado Springs when I was in my, maybe early teens or 12 or 13, and said, okay. And so, whatever I did in high school, whatever I did as a teenager was to try to get to the Air Force Academy.
And then I did and graduated and got to have the career that I dreamed of. I got to be a fighter pilot.
[00:04:46] Tommy Thomas: Did you think going in it would be a career or did you think it would be a four-to-six-year stint?
Jack Briggs: My initial intent was for it to be a career. And then over time it, it grew into that.
[00:04:57] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about your first command? the first time that you actually had people reporting to you?
[00:05:02] Jack Briggs: That weight is interesting. It's the weight of command. It's hard to describe of but when you do it, you understand it. It was challenging. It's people and people can be challenging. But if you can develop them it's thrilling to watch somebody develop.
[00:05:17] Tommy Thomas: Did you have a, a mentor or somebody that you looked up to in the service as a model or did you, were you winging it part? Pardon the pun.
[00:05:25] Jack Briggs: There's no winging it. They're variety of, I, I could give you 20 names of folks. 15 of 'em. I wanted to do exactly the way they were doing it, and five of 'em, I wanted to do it exactly the opposite of the way they were doing it. But it was a learning experience at each level.
I think you have to maybe take things as they come at different levels of your own capacity and capability to really grasp what you're being presented. Some of the things are over your head when you're, when it's early in your career you think you've got it, but you just don't have enough experience for it to stick.
And getting out ahead of your own headlights a couple of times we'll teach you, maybe I need to go at a pace where the organization helps me to develop as I go.
[00:06:06] Tommy Thomas: What did you learn as an Air Force Officer that's maybe been most helpful as you moved into the nonprofit sector?
People matter and projects don't
[00:06:11] Jack Briggs:. Projects are a thing to do. And I think if we look back in our lives, maybe to the last thing you ever, you did at a place you're probably not thinking about that slide deck you created or that paper you typed up or that product you put together.
You're probably thinking about the people you worked and interacted with, either positively or negatively, but the people is what matters. And so taking that one step further as a leader, I think you have to frame your approach to people this way. I did it. I would always say that we're gonna advance on the mission because the mission is why we're here.
[00:06:52] Jack Briggs: We're gonna focus on the welfare of the people that we lead. We're gonna focus on their welfare. Now that doesn't mean just holding their hand. It's challenging them. It's creating an environment where they can grow where they can gain more self-worth and responsibility and confidence in themselves.
Last thing is being a good steward of the resources you're provided. You get time, money, equipment, people. As a leader, you need to be a good steward of those so that you can focus on the welfare of the people that you lead. So they will advance the mission. If you can get that, that sauce together, right?
The problem becomes going too fast. And now you've gotta regulate how quickly the organization moves because people are bought in, they're committed because they know that you're after their welfare so that they can go do what we're supposed to do.
[00:07:50] Tommy Thomas: If you invited me to a staff meeting next week and I got a chance to talk to your senior team and maybe we excused you and if I were to ask them what's the toughest part of working for Jack Briggs? What do you think I would hear?
[00:07:53] Jack Briggs: Oh gosh. Huh. I guess I would say maybe the, and this is my own, this is my own issue. Sure. That this is my issue. I have a perfectionism streak that I have to make sure I don't apply to everyone else around me. Not that I am perfect, but I am the hard part, the thing about it is I am hard on myself. When mistakes happen and those sorts of things I don't typically transfer that to the folks that I lead, but I can.
I can react negatively to that if I let somebody down. That, that's the thing maybe I would say is that I'll take things very personal if I'm, if I've come up short I try not to transfer that to the folks that, that I'm working with. But I think they can see it.
[00:08:33] Tommy Thomas: So let's flip that question around. What do you think they'd say was the most rewarding thing of working for Jack Briggs?
[00:08:39] Jack Briggs: Now this is something I have been told. Not that I would say that I believe this so much. It sounds true but I think externally I've been told this is that I have an ability to put the current situation into a broader context, whatever's happening.
I'm able to bring it up and to not focus so much on the issue but get to the principle of what we're trying to do in a broader context of where we want to go. And that's, that is to relieve the pressure of people trying to just slay the immediate dragon that's right in front of 'em, but to put their own decision making into the context of where the organization is trying to go, so that then they can make independent decisions so that they're moving in the same direction all the time, even though I may not be there to help them with their deciding.
Because if I have to decide everything, then I don't need them, right? I want to empower them with the framework of context and then let them go do their expertise.
[00:09:39] Tommy Thomas: How far along in your Air Force career do you think you were when you began to think like that? Does that happen as a Captain or do you have to have 20 years in before you have the experience to conceptualize that way?
[00:09:51] Jack Briggs: I would say it's earlier than that. I think it was my upbringing with my father. Huh. He was a coacher. He was a coach kind of guy. And he saw leadership traits in me, and we would talk about those sorts of things if, know, it was a sports or boy scouts or, whatever it happened to be.
Taking the opportunity to exercise those leadership muscles and figure out that it is, it's never about you. You know that I think that he instilled in that, in me at an early age was leadership is servant. It's about serving those who you lead. Now you have to have a framework and you have to have a vision.
But really then you need to support your, the folks that are gonna go do it. And that, again, that's focusing on their welfare by being a good steward of the resources you're providing.
[00:10:36] Tommy Thomas: What skills or competencies did you use in the latter part of your career in the Air Force, and how does that compare or differ from today?
[00:10:45] Jack Briggs: I think they're very similar. Again, people matter. Projects don't. We have all kinds of projects at the rescue mission. That’s not why we're here.
We're here is to help people meet them at their point of need and then help move them along a pathway away from homelessness, addiction, poverty and so the programs are tools that, but they're not the thing and the people that we're working with are the thing.
And so, people matter. Projects don't. If a project isn't working or a program isn't working to achieve the objective with a client, then what we need to change the program to meet them at from a different angle. one of the things that I think makes us successful is we're very transactional with our clients.
We're not we're not we're not based on altruism. I'll just put it that way. I know that sounds weird but we're not we're based on mutual respect, dignity, and transaction. Meaning for our clients, we want to elevate their selves, and help them rediscover their own worth to do that.
You transact with them. You have something they want, they have something you want and you transact with them. And in doing that you level this sort of power gap that can occur in social services where if you just give things to people, you create a power gap because you're the one who has everything, and you have worth and they don't.
We don't like to do that. We like to engage in transactional things. It starts off with their very first moment at the rescue mission when we do our first transaction is they want to come in because they want food or shelter or medical care or whatever. We, they have something we want.
And that's this. What's your name? Not your street name, but your real name. We'd like to know your name. Now, on the street, a name is a commodity. Because if I know your name, I can find out if you've got an open warrant, I can find out if you've been a sex offender, I can find out all kinds of stuff about you if I've got your name.
That's a transaction. There's a first trust moment right there. And so it's people, and it's incentivization of people.
[00:12:42] Tommy Thomas: What was the hardest thing you had to learn, coming into your current role from the military and from higher education? What was the maybe the biggest difference or the hardest lesson
[00:12:54] Jack Briggs: Speed. I think speed is the is one of the things.
You have to have a little more patience in this world of social services and nonprofit. It doesn't move at the same speed as a military organization for a variety of reasons.
It seemed obvious. But think for me it was understanding the cycle, the rhythm of decision making and that sort of thing.
[00:13:15] Tommy Thomas: How did you know, or how did you get an inkling that this job was right for you?
[00:13:20] Jack Briggs: I have a family history of some addiction and being on the streets a little bit. And having been around that in my family I, my eyes were open to it early. And then when I was here at the, in Colorado Springs, in my last assignment, I was on the board of directors at the Rescue Mission. When I retired and moved to New York, I stayed in contact. And when the then CEO wanted to retire, they called me and asked me if I might be interested in coming back and interviewing for the position.
My wife and I had considered coming back to Colorado as our final destination. Regardless, it just seemed like good timing.
[00:13:56] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned a few minutes ago that you probably weren't always ready for the for the next assignment in the Air Force. Maybe can you share with us a leadership position that was different than you anticipated and how you came out of it?
[00:14:10] Jack Briggs: Oh, I think they were all different. I think this is different. But again, I don't tend to really worry too much about that anymore after those experiences because I try to do things based on principle and not just the circumstance or issue of the day.
It's what are the principles involved and when you focus on those, then the leadership tends to be very similar.
[00:14:31] Tommy Thomas: When you think of the, maybe the leader that maybe had the most influence in you on the Air Force, can you gve me some words and phrases that come to mind about their leadership?
[00:14:40] Jack Briggs: Integrity and humility. I think the particularly in senior level leadership, whether it's the military or business or in a nonprofit if you if you can't, if you can't have, be integrated, that's the word, right?
Integer meaning whole. Yeah. 1, 2, 3. Those are integers, right? They're whole being integrated is whole and having integrity is whole. It means that you're consistent, transparent, you've got a principal base for decision. that, that piece of it. The second is humility, because it's easy.
Oh, so easy to get wrapped up in yourself because everybody laughs. They all stand up when you walk in the room, they're gonna say, yes, sir. There's this sort of thing around it. Not very many people will argue with you. I used to tell folks, look, hey, if you disagree with me, you need to speak up because if we both agree all the time, then one of us is extra and I'm not leaving. , I don't know. Let's, be polite about it, but if you disagree with me, do it. So the humility piece, because on the bad side of that hubris is the death nail to leadership. it's the poison dart in the heart of leadership because you'll believe the things that people tell you, you will be manipulated.
You will get yourself into situations with finances or with power or with relationships that will be detrimental to the organization and your own personal development and career.
[00:16:11] Tommy Thomas: Would you say, I you probably answered my next question, but would you say that's the biggest threat to derail a leader's career?
[00:16:17] Jack Briggs: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely hubris.
[00:16:20] Tommy Thomas: Yeah. Let's talk about hiring for a minute. What are you looking for when you hire somebody? Maybe go back to the service and there or now what do I need to be successful under Jack?
[00:16:32] Jack Briggs: It depends. Am I hiring for a technical position? That requires expertise, something engineering finances, so part of it is do you have the requisite experience for the level of the position that you're being hired into? But the bedrock of that goes back to those other, those two things that I mentioned before, integrity and humility.
It's just one of those things that you've gotta try to understand. And it's hard in an interview to do that. There's a variety of different ways that you can ask questions. There's a sense to it. If you've made a bad decision when you recognize that maybe early on in the relationship, then you have to make a decision to about whether the person can develop those traits or if it's just not gonna work, if the fit's not good, right?
You talk about fit, right? Fit goes both ways. Do we fit the organization? Does the person fit the organization and you have to be willing to make those decisions if you've made a poor choice. Yeah. The other thing I ask people when I'm interviewing them is “which kind of person are you”?
Are you the kind of person that likes to come up with the idea and then give it to somebody to execute? Or are you the kind of person that likes to hear a good idea and refine it, make it better as you execute it?
Typically, people are one or the other. There are some people who are both, but typically it's one or the other.
[00:17:54] Tommy Thomas: I know you've had to do this probably several times in both the military and all around. Think about giving somebody a second chance. What goes into your thought there?
[00:18:06] Jack Briggs: I don't mind people making mistakes. That's not an issue. Now, if somebody routinely makes mistakes, they continually show bad judgment in not in the moral sense, but in the I had two options to pick, to make this bridge, and I keep picking the wrong one.
[00:18:22] Jack Briggs: Okay. That's a, that's an issue, right? That's a skills issue. Can those skills be elevated to the right spot where they can be successful? I don't mind people making mistakes, but they, can't be their habit. On the other hand,
If it's a moral or ethical or in an integrity kind of an issue we have to have a much deeper discussion about what's going on.
I work at a homeless shelter. People come here scared, cold, tired, afraid injured, traumatized. Their integrity is not their first thing. Their survival mode is their first thing. And so, they'll do what they can to survive. That can be manipulation, lying, stealing, because that's all they know at the time, they're at their base.
Maslow hierarchy of needs, if you will. Yeah. So, we have to replace that mindset with more positive basic survival skills. We'll help you eat we'll, help you sleep we'll, help you be safe and get some medical attention. But in return, we've gotta start rebuilding the concept that you can be trusted.
[00:19:25] Tommy Thomas: Let's talk about risk for a minute. Frederick Wilcox says, progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base and keep your foot on first. Any thoughts there?
[00:19:37] Jack Briggs: Risk is and that's something that I talk about a lot with people. What is at risk, I think is one of the key questions you must ask. If it's not a big deal, whatever's at risk, then you're the value proposition of taking a chance might be very high.
On the other hand, if it's something of incredible significance is at risk you need to be taking some steps ahead of time to protect that asset or that decision making process or those people because something catastrophic could happen. So I think it depends on what you mean by risk.
And again, I would go with the severity of whatever that is at risk.
[00:20:11] Tommy Thomas: if you could go back in time and tell a younger version of Jack one thing, what would you say?
You have choices in how you react. There are very few situations where you have no choice.
[00:20:17] Jack Briggs: You may have to walk away from the situation. Maybe that's the choice that you have to make. And in that you can start to build a habit pattern of responding versus reacting. to situations because reaction is right now, it's the temporal.
Now when you react it's almost physical, right? So, your body sits in the now. Your body is feeling the now your mind is capturing the past, the now and the future. And so, when you have something happen to you and you react bodily or in the now, and you don't bring your mind into that, you don't pause enough to get your mind into it.
To remember the influences of the past, to to assess the situation for today, whatever it is in the moment. And then think about the impact for the future. You can be lucky and react well, or you could be unlucky and react very poorly. And typically, in those reactions. I tend to react poorly. I do better when I respond to something.
Tommy Thomas: You've been listening to my conversation with Jack Briggs, the President and CEO of the Springs Rescue Mission in Colorado Springs. Next week, we will continue this conversation. I've asked Jack to give us an abbreviated version of a workshop that he gives on Crisis Management, Mitigation, and Leadership.
Until then keep up the good work you're doing to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Springs Rescue Mission
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
[00:00:00] Lisa Entz: Give yourself grace. Forgive yourself. Ask for forgiveness too. Acknowledge, own your stuff, even if you're mostly right, you still have some stuff to own and grow in.
[00:00:11] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Lisa Entz, the Senior Vice President for Talent and Culture at World Impact. In full disclosure, World Impact is a current client of mine. I met Lisa on one of the calls I was having with their senior leadership team. She was very articulate on that call, but the thing that piqued my interest about her being a podcast guest was when she talked about how competitive she is now during that call, she also said that she'd played intercollegiate athletics
[00:00:45] Tommy Thomas: During that call, she also said that she had played intercollegiate athletics. My thoughts immediately went to the subseries, the coaches in my life that we are doing on the podcast. I knew I wanted to get to know more about the coaches in Lisa's life and how that impacted her journey as a nonprofit leader.
[00:01:03] Tommy Thomas: Lisa, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership.
[00:01:07] Lisa Entz: Hi Tommy. Looking forward to visiting with you.
[00:01:10] Tommy Thomas: What's the weather like in Wichita today?
[00:01:15] Lisa Entz: It's super cold and it's windy and it's getting colder.
[00:01:21] Tommy Thomas: A good day to be inside doing a podcast.
[00:01:24] Lisa Entz: Yes, absolutely.
[00:01:26] Tommy Thomas: Before we dive too deep into your professional career, I always like to go back towards somebody's childhood and so maybe give me two or three experiences that you remember from your childhood that's contributed to you being the person you are today.
[00:01:40] Lisa Entz: I was blessed to grow up with a lot of cousins around me and I had two parents who loved me. I had grandparents who loved me and among my cousins, especially on my mom's side, I was the ringleader, and so we would just torment each other but then the, probably the biggest thing was my grandmother, who was a godly woman, sent me to Bible Camps in Arkansas.
And it was at that Bible Camp when I was like an eighth grader or a freshman of high school that I really understood how to grow in the Lord. And I think that really set my course. And so that's probably one pivotal thing that happened.
[00:02:20] Tommy Thomas: When you went to college how did you decide on your major?
[00:02:23] Lisa Entz: After that camp experience, I really felt called into some sort of mission and I was reading old books by Nikki Cruz, Run Baby Run. I read Keith Phillips book - They Dared to Love the Ghetto and then I found out a distant cousin of mine was actually a missionary with World Impact where I'm currently employed.
[00:02:42] Lisa Entz: And when I read the books, they talked a lot about Tabor College and my mom had gone one year there. And so that was really what pulled me to Tabor was I was hoping that there would be an emphasis on urban ministry or a way I could channel in there. I wasn't excited about going to college per se, but I was excited about learning more about how to work with people.
[00:03:03] Tommy Thomas: When you got to World Impact did you think it would be a career?
[00:03:06] Lisa Entz: Before we came on staff, we thought it would be, but then when you move into the city, we moved into an impoverished neighborhood here in Wichita with two little girls and it hit me. What had we just done? We were outsiders, and we thought, okay, if we can make it five years, that'll be a good thing.
So, we just thought we'll evaluate every five years because it was such a struggle to cross cultures, to come into a community and be learners and not know anything and trying to do the work of the Lord, yet realizing that if we aren't learners, so that learning process is difficult. And it was a difficult start, but we both felt really called to the mission of World Impact.
[00:03:49] Tommy Thomas: Fast forward, I don't know, two or three years, three or four years till you got your first management job, when you had people reporting to you, what do you remember?
[00:03:59] Lisa Entz: I remember probably more the mistakes I made then, and I fear for those people who will hear this podcast possibly.
But yeah, you jump in and you try to be as clear as you can, but you realize when you're leading others, if you're a little bit self-aware at all, it's a mirror reflecting back on yourself. And the things that they're, things that they struggle with usually could be traced back to something I need to make it.
In other words, the mistakes, if they made any mistakes, they could be traced back to me. It was a huge learning curve. I loved it. I loved the people I worked with and a lot of the indigenous pastors I worked with, but we all kinda learned together and it was a challenge, but it was a great experience.
[00:04:43] Tommy Thomas: So, before I probe too deeply into your sports part of your life I'm always curious about everybody's job title. What does a Senior Vice President for Talent and Culture do at World Impact?
[00:04:54] Lisa Entz: We have our umbrella of my department is, ideally we want to be in contact with a person from when they apply to come on staff with World Impact.
And if they make that journey into being on staff, we want to walk alongside of them and with their supervisors. Their whole journey. And so when they leave or when they're called away, that they look back and they can say they've grown by being here, that it was a good experience. We have pastoral care under my department the shared spirituality of our staff.
We do monthly prayer times; we have things built in because we're in a high intense ministry and we need to care for our staff so that they. They can do their jobs well. And then we also have professional development in my umbrella. So, it encompasses a lot. And the name captures most of it.
[00:05:43] Tommy Thomas: So let's go to sports. You would be the third or fourth person that I've spoken with that had some sort of reasonably significant sports in their background. What's your earliest recollections of organized sports?
[00:05:55] Lisa Entz: I think the Title IX. Was passed in 1972, and in 1973 I was in seventh grade.
[00:06:05] Lisa Entz: And they decided to have girls’ basketball because they had to have girls basketball now that they had guys basketball. And so of course, I went out for it. I'd watch games with my dad, we'd go to the high school games, but I really didn't know the sport, but it was there and so I was going to go out for it.
And it was, I kept waiting for the coach to explain the game but the first game we had, the A team, which was the eighth graders, they went in and I was the first sub that he put in, which I was really excited about. But I went in there and immediately froze. And so, he pulled me back out, put me on the bench, but it was right then I knew I was cut out for sports. That was just a natural fit.
[00:06:44] Tommy Thomas: Of all the coaches that coached you, who got the most out of you?
[00:06:48] Lisa Entz: I'd have to say my high school coach Dave Smith. He was a runner, and he was an algebra teacher, so he probably got saddled with coaching the girls basketball team.
And he was just an awesome coach. Not in your face. Very quiet, very reassuring, very patient. And I just look back with our team and the way the team, it just seems so natural, but I know nothing happens just naturally. And so that was, I must attribute it to him.
[00:07:19] Tommy Thomas: What's the best athletic team you've ever been a member of?
[00:07:22] Lisa Entz: It'd have to be the high school team. I played in college. But in college it was a whole different nature to the game. The high school team, I knew these girls from junior high, from elementary school. We grew up together.
We lived in the same small town. We some of 'em were my best friends and. It just seemed like we really operated as a team, and I have to attribute that to the coach. We had a strong bench. There was, we were competitive. We did well in our, in our district. But the things I remember is not our games that we won, but just the energy we had altogether.
[00:07:57] Tommy Thomas: What was a major difference between playing high school and playing at the college level?
[00:08:00] Lisa Entz: I played volleyball at a junior college. I had thought after high school I wouldn't do sports anymore. I thought, okay, I'm just going to focus on following the Lord and I'm going to just be serious about that and do that.
And just, sports is not going to be my main thing. I went to a junior college my first year because that was what everybody in our town did. And I thought what? I'll just walk on the volleyball team and see. I was bored and I made the team.
I was one of the only people who made the team walking on, but it was so competitive. Which I could hang with the competitive part, but there was no camaraderie between the players. And that was, I think, because the nature of a junior college. Yeah. You're trying and I wasn't trying to get a scholarship to go play volleyball for their college.
I was still, thinking, oh, I'll just do volleyball then I'll go on, but that was probably my least enjoyable event. Not that our team was very good, but it was just, there was no camaraderie between the players. And then when I went to Tabor when I was touring the campus, again, I wasn't thinking about playing sports because I was going to just do my thing with the Lord.
And the girl who was touring me found out that I played B balls. So, she called the coach and he had me just borrow some clothes and play a game of pickup ball and I walked away with a scholarship. So that was, so then I was playing volleyball. I was playing basketball. And that was a fun, I had fun at Tabor. I did, I had fun, but it just never hit the team feeling that it did in high school.
[00:09:27] Tommy Thomas: As a person of faith, I'm always curious about how we deal with competition and how does that play into our faith walk? What's your thoughts on that?
[00:09:38] Lisa Entz: Competition is, I think people are either wired with it or they aren't.
I have four children, and one of our kids was running cross-country and he does not have that competitive nature. And so, my husband and I had a just really just watch with, keep our mouth shut, because we'd want to yell. You can take that guy in front of you, but.
I think competition is expected a lot of times in the if you're a man and in ministry or in business. I think competition in women sometimes we haven't known how to handle it because we don't want to be competitive against other women. especially because sometimes there's fewer women in leadership and so we sure don't want to have that.
But for me, the competitive part is I have to be really self. Because it's just, it's a drive that is going to be there. And if you're not aware of it, it can affect relationships. You can put the task or the goal ahead of the people around you. And I'm not a personality who does that, who steamrolls over people, but I could see where I could be.
That could be something would happen. So, it's in our ministry, it's what's helped it is it's given me initiative. To go out when I was church plant director and meet with pastors of a different culture and be able to actually pull the mentor ministry and actually lead them. because of that nature.
And it, I think it helped me being a woman, it put that on a shelf because what they sensed from me was that drive to help them be successful versus any weirdness between a woman leading a man and in some of our churches that we work with, we want to be real sensitive to that, and I think that's helped in that and it's helped when I'm working on the executive. With it up until just recently it was all men and me. And so, if you're not going to be competitive or a little bit assertive, you're just not going to have the place.
[00:11:32] Tommy Thomas: From thinking back on team sports some, what lessons have you learned there that you've brought into the nonprofit sector management and leadership?
[00:11:41] Lisa Entz: The thing with team sports, is that in order to have a good team, you've got to have decent bench. You don't have to have a superb bench. You don't have a bench that's so good that they're just frustrated. They aren't playing as much, but you have to have a good bench that helps you get better as a team and they're valuable.
In an organization, especially like ours, we have a lot of staff who work behind the scenes and. The value that they offer to our organization is essential. And if you look at it as a sport, our frontline players are the A teamers that go out there, but they really can't go out there and be effective if the whole team isn't operating.
I think the thing with team is also when you think about a team, you all have to be on the same page to accomplish the goal. And so if it's, if the coach comes in, the coach never gets on the floor to play. So, they have to empower their team and they can't micromanage you. Your coach can't follow their player around on the court.
And so you really do have to trust and empower and then let them go. And then when they make a mistake, or they do something you come back and you keep coaching.
[00:12:47] Tommy Thomas: What do you look for in a leadership role and how do you decide if it's right for you?
[00:12:53] Lisa Entz: I think for me is that I need to be in a place where I feel valued. Where I don't feel like I'm being under scrutiny to perform. I don't think that's healthy for anybody. I don't do well being micromanaged. I don't mind being managed or having, my boss in partnership with me on a lot of things. But that trust needs to be there, and I think it has to be something that's in my.
I'm, my personality type is that I can do something and I can do it for a certain amount of time, and I can do a decent job at it, but if my passion isn't there, if I don't see how that's really affecting our mission and my value in it, I'll get bored. And so that's not going to be good for anybody.
So that I look for if it if it just looks like something that I could see myself. And I've worn a lot of different hats here in this ministry. A lot of times you step in positions because it's needed and then that's valuable and you do your best until you can get somebody who can do it better to come take your place.
[00:13:47] Tommy Thomas: Have you had any leadership role models? And if so, take us to one of those.
[00:14:05] Lisa Entz: That's a good question being I have the women in my life, my mom, my grandmother. They were role models. They were leaders in their own rights within our ministry and the time in which I joined our ministry There weren't really any women in leadership and so there was no path for me to follow. That didn't stop me because I was very passionate about our ministry and I was very passionate about just being able to step in and help wherever it needed to be. And so that I blazed my own path in that.
There have been leaders like Dr. Davis who have invested into me and Dr. Sanders, who's my boss now, who you know, he's a great leader, a great boss, but in thinking of role models, I just can't think of one. I've had people, out there like Corey the Boom, from The Hiding Place. She's my hero. And so, I have people like that I look at and I, that hold the bar high. But within this context it was a little bit difficult to find a way.
[00:14:56] Tommy Thomas: So if I had the privilege of sitting in on one of your staff meetings, say after Christmas when y'all get back together and I could talk to the individuals, maybe we would ask you to leave the room.What would they say would be the most challenging thing about working for Lisa?
[00:15:10] Lisa Entz: They would say, and I know they always roll their eyes at me, but they would say I tend to be overly optimistic and visionary and, I tend to jump first and then say, we'll make it happen. Now I'm learning to not do that as much and I'm also learning to encourage my team to, to adapt to that too more.
But that would be the number one thing, because they, they'll just look at me and think, No, we're not doing that. And. Probably, if it would've been a number of years ago, my team would've said, we need her to be more crystal clear on what we're doing. And not vague, and I don't think I've been vague but that being crystal clear as a leader is important.
[00:15:55] Tommy Thomas: So, on the flip side, what would they say would be the most rewarding part of being on your team?
[00:16:01] Lisa Entz: I think they like the flexibility. I don't micromanage. I give people freedom. I trust my team. I'm over two different teams right now. And, but both teams I lead about the same way. the people on my team were amazing and both teams and they do beyond what I could ever do myself. And so I don't micromanage 'em and I trust 'em. And I think that's what they would appreciate.
[00:16:23] Tommy Thomas: Dr. Martin Luther King said that the ultimate measure of a person is not where they stand in moments of convenience, but where they stand in moments of challenge, moments of great crisis and controversy. What's the greatest challenge, crisis or controversy that you faced, and how did you come out of it?
[00:17:00] Lisa Entz: I've had a number of different crises and controversies in the ministry because due to the nature of my department and our ministry has gone through some changes. We adapt. We have to keep adapting. And that makes it difficult if you've done something one way for a lot long time and then you're adapting. And so I would say one of the biggest challenges was a number of years ago. We just had to maneuver through a lot of staff issues. It was very difficult because there were people I loved, people I cared for, and they're all over the country because it was affecting our ministry, changes were affecting from coast to coast.
And to navigate that and to be loving and gracious in the midst of it I learned a lot about myself. I, and that was a very difficult time, another difficult time, which. Right before that time as I was diagnosed with breast cancer and that comes out of the blue.
You don't know that's coming. And I remember the morning after I was diagnosed. I was in my office and I was crying and I was scared, I was worried. I had grandchildren, I was just like, and my husband was doing his own grieving and praying as he was out walking. And the Lord just was so good and so gracious and so kind and he gave me a picture.
Our oldest son had gone into the Marines right after high school. He went into Iraq, went into Ramadi. He was on the front line. And when he left for the Marines, the Lord gave me a picture of that day that he left. And then I thought, I'll never stop crying. And then I thought in light of my son leaving for the marines, going to interact, breast cancer was second
It was like and it immediately, I don't think I cried a day after that. I just thought, no, this is not as hard as that. But then right on the, when I was going through my recovery of my breast cancer, this is when we had a huge earthquake on staff and so it was a lot with physical stuff going on and with heart issues, with the love I have for our staff and with strategic things that needed to be done in our ministry.
So that would probably be one other than most difficult times. But, you, your team gathers together. You pray together, you talk, you keep yourself honest, that you're loving people. Even in the midst of hard things. And if hard things are said about you or to you, you can't take it personally. You have to keep loving. So that was a very difficult time.
[00:19:06] Tommy Thomas: Most of us would probably say I hope that we're on the backside of the pandemic. I guess time will tell, but so thus far, what's the most important lesson that you and your team brought out of the pandemic that you think can take forward?
[00:19:20] Lisa Entz: I think we were like a duck on the water. I think my team looked steady, but we were paddling hard underneath. We were adapting, we were working hard. We were adjusting because we were, at that point in time, my team was starting a program of trauma healing, which we started before the pan pandemic in partnering with another ministry.
And so, when the pandemic hit, we had to go completely. We had no idea if that would even work. And so, we worked terribly hard, but we had to keep calm because of the ministry we were doing. And so, I think the pandemic showed that when things come, and the world around us seemed to be shutting down, we were working all the harder, we were just working terribly hard because the ministry needed to go on and we had to adapt.
I think even as a result of the pandemic, we've incorporated things into our ministry. And into my department that have changed this forever, and I think we're actually reaching more people because of it.
[00:20:21] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to a higher level of observation maybe. And as you think back and leaders whose careers have been derailed over the years gimme some of your observations on what goes into derailment.
[00:20:36] Lisa Entz: Yeah, it's, it's so hard because you love people and they're your friends and it still happens. I would say the number one thing would be a lack of self-awareness. because in a leadership position, if you're not self-aware, especially when it gets stressful, if you don't understand how you act when you're stressed or if you don't understand and read when you become defensive.
You will shut down your team and you will wound them. And there's sometimes, there's no coming back from that. We've had leaders that have derailed for you name it. But I would say the number one thing is knowing yourself reading yourself and reading your team.
Look at them and look at their faces when you're talking. If they're shutting down and you've got to be able to read them so you can hear 'em. And, but, because what'll happen is in our organization anyway, the, which I'm really proud of, the fact is that we really value the people we lead.
We value the people in our organization. We value them more than our leaders. I would say our executive team. We know that we are second to our. And so there's nobody's it that's going to be, you can't be a jerk and stay around. Cause it doesn't matter if your position. And that self-awareness, I think, would help people to not derail as often.
[00:21:56] Tommy Thomas: Is anything y'all do to help people in their self-awareness?
[00:22:01] Lisa Entz: We do. My department we meet with our staff. Every one of our staff people throughout the year just to see how they're doing.
We also meet with the leaders throughout the year. And so we play the role of a safe person. We can ask people not only how you're doing in your role, but what do you need to improve? and they've communicated a lot of these things with their leaders too, but sometimes they just need a sounding board.
But if we start hearing sounding boards from people and we, and then we give them tools, how to talk with their leader, how to go and, Hey, this is what, let's practice this. You could maybe say, but if those don't work then, we become a little bit more intentional. But as we meet with the leaders, we do the best Christian Workplace survey every year, and it gives.
Really good tools. And so a lot of times it's just meeting with a leader and saying, how are your meetings? Are you keeping up with your meetings with your staff? Are you so busy you keep cancelling meetings? Are you meeting with them one-on-one? Are you meeting with a group?
How often? How frequent? And then even to, they can help. A lot of times leaders come to us and say, I do not understand the staff person. They do great work, but we're not getting along. So, then we talk about it and sometimes we can add insight and just give 'em some tools and it's that kind of relationship.
And usually for the most part, people do want to improve. And we are not the experts, my team, but we're just a mirror or a sounding. and most leaders do listen and they do adjust.
[00:23:29] Tommy Thomas: When you're getting ready to hire somebody on your team, what's the main thing you're looking for?
Lisa Entz: We're looking for a fit to the organization. whatever position we're hiring for. We know that the person they're going to work under that supervisor is going to make sure they're competent in some of those skill areas that we don't know about those, but what we're looking for is a fit, and we're looking for that person to be mature because in a missions organization we get a lot of dear people who really just want to love the Lord and do mission work, but we need to make sure that we're a fit for them and they're a fit for us and it's equal. Because we don't want to bring somebody on and not have it be a fit, because that just disrupts their life. They're valuable people. We don't want that. So, we look for their, emotional, spiritual, mental health, their competencies.
And, if they're enjoyable to be around, cause we're going to have to be around them. I don't do most of the hiring anymore. My team does that. I think they do a much better job than I do. one of the questions that we would ask that I always enjoyed the most was, name, a recent conflict you had and how you resolved it.
And so you find out a lot about people, cause some people will say they will have had a conflict, but they either didn't deal with it or they overly dealt with it, or they didn't deal with it where they wanted and they saw areas where they need to grow. And that's what we want to see. We don't want to see perfection.
We just want to see that openness and that people get back to self-awareness that they're aware of themselves. So that's kind of what we look for.
[00:25:01] Tommy Thomas: One of my favorite podcasts I listen to often is Alan Alda's Podcast, Clear and Vivid. At least he says, I hope it is. He closes out his podcast with a kind of lightning round of getting people to respond to different communication things. I'm not going to go the communications line, but I do have some quotes that I'd like for you to respond to as we wrap this up.
First one from Thomas Edison. Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration.
[00:25:33] Lisa Entz: That's for sure. There's no way I'd be in this role if it was just according to my genius. It's a lot of, yeah. Hard work. There's, we look at people who are, some people are really highly talented, just amazing ability, but if they are not willing to work hard and be flexible, it's just not going to work.
[00:25:51] Tommy Thomas: When you're sitting around the table with your leadership team, you never want to be the smartest person at the table.
[00:25:57] Lisa Entz: Yeah. Fortunately, I don't have to watch that too carefully, but I have, I work along some smart people but yeah. You want to be somebody who listens more than they talk.
[00:26:05] Tommy Thomas: Success is to be measured not so much by the position one has reached in life as by the obstacles he has overcome. Booker T. Washington.
[00:26:16] Lisa Entz: Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. I think. I think it comes down to, your character is always going to be the most important thing, not your job description, not your level that you've risen to in leadership, but your character.
[00:26:29] Tommy Thomas: Progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base while keeping your foot on first. Frederick Wilcox.
[00:26:38] Lisa Entz: Yeah, there's there there's a risk. Because when you jump into new things and if you're going to innovate, you're letting go of something. I used to coach volleyball for my daughter's high school team even after she graduated.
And one of the things that the girls would a lot of times want to have it both ways. They want to be able to have their social life and also, start on game day – and to be able to skip practice because of something going on. And one, one day a girl came up to you, she said, yeah, I'm going to have to miss practice.
And for something it wasn't legitimate, it was something, high school girls, I understand. But I said, that's fine. You can be there. And she goes, okay. I said, but you need to understand you won't be start. She goes, what? And I said no, we must understand what we say yes to.
We're always saying no to something else. It’s what you say no to, what are you saying yes to? So, it's that balance of you can't have it all. You got to let go to move forward.
[00:27:29] Tommy Thomas: What's the one piece of advice you would give to anybody in our audience who's getting ready to go into their first senior leadership role?
[00:27:39] Lisa Entz: I. I would I'll tell you what the Lord told me, when I stepped into this role, because it was a significant move to be on a leadership team in an organization that had never had a woman on a leadership team before. And in that role, and I knew there were a lot of people who were questioning it just with the whatever and I knew also there were a lot of people who were singing my praises. And what the Lord told me was - Lisa, never believe your own hype. Catch yourself before you start thinking too highly of yourself. So, I think the thing is, in being in leadership, you've got to look at it as a servant position.
We're not here to get our way. We're here to reflect and move forward the vision and. to me is that's the thing to remember, that we're servants and it's not about us. It's about the mission. And so to listen, to hear, to be self-aware of when you're getting defensive when you're getting territorial. And you don't have to be the smartest person. You have to just listen and then reflect.
[00:28:43] Tommy Thomas: What's the one thing you wish somebody had told you, yay, those many years ago when you started out in leadership?
[00:28:51] Lisa Entz: Give yourself grace. Forgive yourself. Ask for forgiveness too. Acknowledge, own your stuff. Even if you're mostly right, you still have some stuff to own and grow in. Give yourself grace and refuse to think that you always know what's right. Also, with my competitive nature, I have lost relationships because of m me becoming offended by some, it might have been a just offense.
I might have the right to be offended, but I didn't have I own that offense too much, and it cost a relationship. So just don't take yourself too seriously. Forgive others. Forgive yourself.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
World Impact
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
[00:00:00] Linda Livingstone: My dad passed away a number of years ago and at his funeral, many of his former players who played for him really in the 1950s and sixties and early seventies shared about the impact he had on their lives. And it was never about the basketball. It was always about the way they taught them to be, quality young men and to work hard and to have an impact beyond basketball.
I think coaches that I've had that were the most impactful for ones that it wasn't all about the sport or about the basketball. It was about those life lessons that you learned maybe through sport, but that make you just a better person and better at whatever you're going to end up doing in life.
Our guests today are Dr. Linda Livingstone, President of Baylor University and her daughter, Shelby Livingstone, Assistant Volleyball Coach at Liberty University. Prior to establishing themselves on their respective career paths, both women excelled in intercollegiate athletics.
Linda Livingstone was a four-year letter basketball player for Oklahoma State University.
Shelby Livingstone was a fire-year letter volleyball player for Rice University.
Join us today for a discussion with these two women about the role that intercollegiate athletics and the coaches in their lives help mold them into the leaders they are today.
[00:00:46] Tommy Thomas: I am a firm believer that nonprofit leadership lessons can be learned from a lot of people in places. One of these is intercollegiate athletics. Coaches can have a significant impact on a student athlete's life. Our guests today are living proof of that. Dr. Linda Livingstone is the President at Baylor University
Before establishing herself as an academic leader, she was a four-year letter winner while playing basketball at Oklahoma State. Additionally, she is the first N C A female basketball letter winner to serve as president of a major division one university.
Shelby Living Stone is the assistant volleyball coach at Liberty University. Before getting into coaching, Shelby established herself as a leader on the Rice University Al Volleyball team, where she totaled over 400 kills and 900 digs as an outside hitter. During her five-year career, academically, she was named the Conference USA Commissioner's Honor and earn Rice's Conference USA Spirit of Service Winter Award, and Scholar Athlete Volleyball Award.
What a treat it is for me to have this mother-daughter duo with me today. Shelby and Linda, welcome to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership
[00:01:59] Linda Livingstone: We're glad to be with you. Thanks for having us, Tommy.
[00:02:03] Tommy Thomas: Linda, you grew up in a home where your dad had played a prominent role in Oklahoma basketball. What was that like?
[00:02:10] Linda Livingstone: He was a college basketball coach in Oklahoma as I was growing up. I don't know that as a child you really realize how prominent your parents are. I didn't really realize how prominent he was in college basketball in Oklahoma, but I do know we grew up in the gym at Oklahoma State watching practices and playing in Gallagher, what was Gallagher Hall then.
And so it was a great way to grow up and loved being in an athletic family with brothers that I got to play with as well as a dad that would take us to the gym at OSU.
[00:02:35] Tommy Thomas: I guess it should be noted before we get too much further, there's another basketball star in the family. Brad, Linda's husband and Shelby's dad, was a three-year letter winner at Oklahoma State and then toured Europe with Athletes in Action.
Shelby, what was it like being raised by two parents who had excelled as division one athletics?
[00:02:54] Shelby Livingstone: It was really cool. Like my mom said, you don't really realize how cool your parents are until you get older and you're reminded of all the awesome things that they accomplished during their college basketball days.
But yeah, it was normal. Like my parents played basketball, my grandparents played basketball, so similar to my mom. We were always in a gym, always playing sports. But they were great role models to look up to as I continued on in my athletic career, to see that my parents played college basketball, like that's something that I can accomplish as well.
[00:03:29] Tommy Thomas: Did you feel any pressure to play basketball? How did you get to volleyball?
[00:03:35] Shelby Livingstone: That is a great question. I played basketball. I played pretty much every sport growing up, but my dad was my basketball coach. He's gonna hate that I'm saying this, but my dad was my middle school basketball coach, and I think that is what pushed me to play volleyball.
It was a new sport that my parents didn't know a lot about. So I could come home and they wouldn't try to coach me on every little thing. I'm not sure that you did try, but it didn't
[00:04:04] Linda Livingstone: I’m sure we tried, but it didn’t really work very well.
[00:04:05] Shelby Livingstone: Volleyball has less conditioning. There's not as much running, and so that was a very good plus as well. But I think I wanted to try something new and branch out.
[00:04:32] Tommy Thomas I read an article that said the role of a coach could be many and varied, from instructor to assessor to friend, mentor, facilitator, chauffer, demonstrator, advisor, supporter, fact finder, motivator, counselor, organizer, planner, and the fountain of all knowledge. When you two ladies, think about the coaches that got the most out of you Shelby, maybe just take me into that first.
[00:04:40] Shelby Livingstone: As I finished my first kind of semester season of coaching, that those are so true. You really have to wear so many different hats. I'm not sure I'm the fountain of all knowledge, but you definitely have to wear many different hats as a coach. And I think that being a coach now and having this be my full-time job has allowed me to look back on my coaches that I've had that have really. Me and pushed me to be the best version of myself.
And I'm so much more grateful now than maybe I was as a student athlete. But when I look back on my college volleyball career at Rice University my head coach Jenny Volpe, looking back and in the moment, she stepped into those roles for me as just, she's a mother, she's a coach, she's a former athlete.
And I'm just so grateful for the ways that she pushed me and she pushed. In ways that I didn't even know I could be pushed or wanted to be pushed to then allow me to achieve more than I ever thought was possible. And so I'm just really, I'm grateful for her and many coaches in my life to wear these hats and push me and love me so well.
[00:05:54] Tommy Thomas: What about you, Linda? What do you remember?
[00:05:56] Linda Livingstone: When I reflect on what Shelby just shared, and I look and I think about this list of qualities that you read to us, I really think that we expect a lot more of coaches now than we did probably when I played. I think we expect them to be more of supporters and advisors and friends.
I don't think when I played that's necessarily how you thought about your coaches. I think you really thought about them much more of just what they did for you on the court and related to basketball. But I do know when I think about coaches that I've had, and my dad was a coach as well as you noted, and my dad passed away a number of years ago and at his funeral, many of his former players who played for him really in the 1950s and sixties and early seventies shared about the impact he had on their lives. And it was never about the basketball. It was always about the way they taught them to be, quality young men and to work hard and to have an impact beyond basketball.
So I think coaches that I've had that were the most impactful for ones that it wasn't all about the sport or about the basketball. It was about those life lessons that you learned maybe through sport, but that make you just a better person and better at whatever you're going to end up doing in life.
[00:07:09] Tommy Thomas: I read an article, it said that I was talking about the coaches process for providing feedback is a critical part to the success of the athlete. I think proper feedback probably is an art form. and we see sometimes on TV and I guess this age of everything being captured that maybe we sometimes don't see the best of the art form. And maybe sometimes we do.
But maybe to both of you, what do you remember about feedback that that you got from a respected coach? What did that look like?
[00:07:36] Linda Livingstone: Go ahead, Shelby. Okay. You had this experience much more recently than I have.
[00:07:43] Shelby Livingstone: When I think about athletes, I think it's almost like having kids. Like I feel like I am 26 and I had 19 daughters. This year that I had to take care of. And you have to know each athlete in order to know the best way that they will receive feedback.
Because the way that I talk to one athlete versus the way that I talk to another athlete is very different. And I think as a coach you can't. Give the, you can give really great feedback, but if they're not receiving it, and if you don't know who they are and how they'll best receive that feedback, then you'll never make any progress.
They'll never really quite understand what you're saying to them. And so as I like enter my coaching career, I obviously look back on the coaches that have impacted me the most and I just look back on them and I see how much they knew me. Shelby living stone off of the volleyball court, and I see how much they knew me as Shelby outside of the weight room and outside of the track that we would condition on.
And as soon as I understood and knew that my coaches knew me as more than just a student-athlete, but as a person, as a daughter, as a friend, as a student, then those are the moments that the feedback really takes root, and you can start to make really great change and progress within athletes.
But that's, you have to take the time outside of the core, outside of the gym to get to know athletes and for them to know that you care about them, to then understand the proper routes. Feedback and to grow and to learn. ,
[00:09:26] Linda Livingstone: I was thinking about what Shelby said and it reminded me of an experience I had when I was in college at Oklahoma State playing basketball.
And I think one of the other things, coaches that are good at providing feedback understand is when they make a mistake and don't provide feedback in the right way to the. to the student athlete. They acknowledge that and yeah, speak to that. I remember we were scrimmaging preseason and we were not playing well.
And one of our assistant coaches just jumped on a couple of us really hard, and it was devastating because we were the kind of kids that just worked hard and always tried to do our best no matter what. And he later came back to both of us and apologized. He says, when I'm dealing with this other player, I know that I can say that to her and I can be on her like that and that's what's gonna get her to respond.
But for you guys, I really should have approached you in a different way and used a different way of giving you the feedback that you needed. So while it was hard in that moment, I think the fact that assistant coach acknowledged that they'd given feedback in the wrong way and acknowledged how they should have done it was actually a really.
Positive experience with that coach and their willingness to admit that they had made a mistake and could have done it better, I think was really impactful. And it's a great leadership lesson. We sometimes do make bad decisions as a leader, and we need to acknowledge that and be willing to let people know that and then move on.
[00:10:46] Tommy Thomas: Take me to the best athletic team you were a part of and what made it so.
[00:10:53] Shelby Livingstone: you can go first on this one. Mom.
[00:10:55] Linda Livingstone: Oh gosh. I'm just trying to think back to some good teams I was on and my high school basketball team, we had a good teams in college as well, but my high school basketball team was really quite successful and we never quite made it to the state tournament, but we had some really good teams and, I think it was because, We liked each other.
I actually went to a pretty small high school, so we were all really good friends besides being on the basketball team together, we liked each other. We respected each other. We had a coach that really brought us together as a team and motivated us, and he was really good about knowing. What each person's talent was and how to use them in the game properly to get the, to make the team the best they could be.
Sometimes it's not always about the individual player and what you think is best, it's about what, how using that player is best for the team. And he was really good at that. And so I think because of that we had some really successful teams along the way and enjoyed being together as a team as well, which I think is really important.
[00:11:56] Shelby Livingstone: I feel really lucky because I can look back on. Every single team that I've been on, and I could just talk for hours about how special those teams were, whether we won a championship or lost all of our matches that year. So I feel really lucky with the people that I've been able to play volleyball with.
I got to go to the Final four with Baylor volleyball as a volunteer assistant coach, and that's an experience that as an athlete, I never thought I would be able to, sit on the sidelines of a game like that. But I'd have to say that my fifth year when I was at Rice, I. tore my ACL spring of my junior year going into what would've been my true senior year.
So I had to red shirt my senior year. And honestly, that year was really hard and I never, I thought I might never see the volleyball chord again. Whether I got cleared to play or just wasn't gonna be the same volleyball player I was before my injury. And we, that was a hard year for our team.
The year that I redshirted, we. Had a lot of drama and a lot of really hard conversations that year, and I thought that maybe our team wouldn't ever recover from that. And so coming back from my fifth year was really special because I earned the opportunity to be a sixth rotation outside hitter, which for volleyball is a really big deal and really awesome.
And our team went through a lot of self-reflection to get to a place that honestly I didn't think we would be able to get back to as a loving, supportive community for one another. And that year we had 11 girls on our team, which for a volleyball team is really small. And so we just bonded together and whatever this season looks like, it's gonna be fun and we're gonna play with a lot of joy and we're gonna support each other through all of it. And I think with that attitude and. Just relieving, releasing everything that we had experienced the year before. We played with a lot of freedom, and we ended up winning our conference regular season tournament or championship, and our conference tournament, and we made it to the NCAA Tournament, and it was just the perfect bow on top of my college volleyball career.
And I got to do it with my best friends. And I got to do it in a year that I wasn't promised and didn't think I would. Get when I started at Rice. And so I'll forever be grateful for those 11 girls on that team and for our coaching staff and just the way that we could have lost every match that year and I think it would've still been a really special year, but we ended up winning a championship, so that was a great memory to think back on.
[00:14:28] Tommy Thomas: Both of you are women of faith and have an abiding faith. I'm always curious, and I asked myself that question a lot, how does faith and competition mix?
[00:14:38] Linda Livingstone: When I think about that because I know a lot of people struggle with that, and Shelby's the one with the port Ministry Master of Divinity and Sport Ministry, so she can talk about it probably from a much deeper theological perspective than I can.
But what I think about is that as Christians, we are really called to be good stewards of the talents and gifts that God has given us. And if those happen to be athletic gifts, then we really should strive to be the best we can be athletically, and then to use that athletic talent to have an impact for Christ in the world.
I think would mean playing your best, being as competitive as you can, being the best team member that you can. Being the best example you can be to those that are watching you . And so I think that does feed into being a great competitor but doing it in the right way, in a way that's honoring to Christ.
And so I think about it as a stewardship aspect of being a Christian. But Shelby probably has other thoughts beyond. No,
[00:15:37] Shelby Livingstone: I love that. And I would add I would just add to that as a Christian, I would say that my motivation in all things that I do comes from love, and it comes from the example of love that Jesus sets for us in the gospel.
So, whether I'm playing my sport or I'm talking to my friends, or I'm driving down the road, all that I do. Should be coming from a place of love, and I fail at this every single day, but that's the goal that I enter into each day with. And so as an athlete, as a competitor, I want my motivation to be from love.
If I'm competing through the love of Jesus, then. I think that's a great way to share the gospel with other people. I think the court, the field, the pool is a great way to share the gospel through using our talents, using the gifts that God has given us to spread his joy and his love through everyone that we come into contact with.
I think if we're going into competition with, This base of love with this motivation of love, then it can be used so well to further the Kingdom of God here.
[00:16:49] Tommy Thomas: It's often said that a game is won or lost in the locker room before the game starts. Do either one of you have any memories of a good pre-game speech?
[00:17:02] Shelby Livingstone: There are some good ones. Yeah, I think that for the most part, my coaches and when I was at Rice and when I was at Baylor and now at Liberty, the locker room pre-game talks are like your last second chance to remind the players of your 3, 4, 5 most important things. It's like your last refresh before you take the big test that is the match. And so I definitely remember some like big rah-rah locker room moments before a big conference rival match before we would play Western Kentucky at Rice or Texas at Baylor. But I think the locker room, the pre-game locker room talks are really just like your last moment to go over a couple last things to remind your players of what they'll be seeing on the other side of the court. And my favorite thing about pre-game locker room talks at Baylor and Liberty is the time that we get to pray before we go out onto the court. I think it's just a great way to, for our girls to recenter themselves to be reminded why they're playing, what motivates them. And so honestly, that's what gets me fired up about matches is the times that we get to sit together and just pray for joy before our matches.
[00:18:16] Linda Livingstone: Here at Baylor, there’s a famous story of Grant Teaff, our football coach for years. He's retired now. And he gave a motivational talk and I don't remember if it was pre-game or at halftime and he ate a worm and it's this legendary motivational story.
So I have to say, I never had any coaches do anything quite like that when I was pre-game or at to get us inspired. But I think Shelby's right, that it's really whatever it takes for that particular game or match or competition. Given who you're playing to get the team focused on the things they have to do in that event to do their best, to have the best opportunity to win.
And I think really good coaches know what you need in the moment prior to a particular game or match to get the most out of their players. And it may be something different each game, depending on who you're playing and what you've gotta do to beat that team.
[00:19:06] Tommy Thomas: Linda you've had a few more years of experience than Shelby and you've moved up through the ranks of Dean of three business schools. Now you're a university president. What skills or competencies do you think you use most as a president?
[00:19:22] Linda Livingstone: Yeah. There's a lot that go, goes into being a president and I think first and foremost, you really have to approach a job like this that has the scope and breadth and depth that a university presidency has from a very mission centered perspective, and I think this is with any type of organization, you have to really say, okay, what's the mission of our institution and what do I have to do as the president to help ensure that everything we do is consistent with our mission? And in my view, what really is important there is alignment.
Alignment from our Board of Regents to me, to my leadership team, to our deans and on down through the faculty and staff. And so hiring the right people is critical to me. I, everybody always asks me, what's the most important thing as a president? I said, you've gotta put the right team there with you to help lead the organization. I can't do everything. There's some things I'm good at, there's some things I'm not so good at, and I've gotta put together a team because this is a complex organization, it's a large organization, and I need a team with diverse skills that all care deeply about the mission to make sure that we get it done and do it well, and then that we have alignment with our board and with our faculty and so on. And so I think hiring the right people and then helping them to be successful. If my team is successful, then our institution is going to be successful. So, my job is to make sure that they have the resources and the support that they need to do their job well so that Baylor can be success.
[00:20:55] Tommy Thomas: If I came to staff meeting week after next and we excused, you and I got a chance to talk with your cabinet, what do you think they would say would be the most challenging aspect of working for Dr. Livingstone?
[00:21:06] Linda Livingstone: You're always welcome to come, Tommy. I'd be happy to let you have some time with my team.
They're a wonderful group of people. It's an interesting question. I would say I'm. a pretty resilient person, and I have a really positive attitude and I love what I do. I love the work that I do. So there's not a lot that kind of gets me down even in really difficult situations.
I really seek to have a positive attitude and look for the good in things. And I think there's a lot of good in that, but I also think that it can sometimes cause me to maybe miss when somebody on my team, experiencing a lot of stress or some difficulty in the work that they're doing. And because sometimes that's not how I would react to something.
So I have to really pay attention and frankly, have people, remind me occasionally that this vice president maybe needs a little bit of encouragement, or they're really struggling with something right now, so we might need to provide them with some additional support. So I think it's a conscientiousness on my part that I may miss sometimes of the struggles they're going through and what they're finding hard and maybe even that they don't always want me to know because they think I might not have that same reaction and I don't want that at all. I want to know when they need my support and my help.
[00:22:19] Tommy Thomas: On the flip side of, what do you think that would say is the most rewarding aspect?
[00:22:23] Linda Livingstone: I hope they would say the flip side of that last question is that they feel like I support them, that I've got their backs and that I'm doing everything I can to help them and their teams to be successful.
And that frankly we build a good culture within my leadership of support and care for one another. Again, all in service to the mission.
[00:22:45] Tommy Thomas: Shelby, if I came to volleyball practice when you returned to campus in a couple weeks, and what words and phrases do you think your team would say that would best describe you as an assistant coach?
[00:22:57] Shelby Livingstone: Oh, man. I I hope that they would say that they know that I love them and that I care about them and that my door is always open. Whether they're experiencing joy or sadness or hardship, that Shelby is a coach that we can always go to and she will listen. I feel like a lot of my job is listening, which I love.
I love listening to people's stories. I love hearing about people's successes, but also sitting with people and their hardships and moments of loss. And so I feel as if I'm super lucky that these girls. really invited me into deep pieces of their lives, and I've only been there for a little over five or six months.
And so I hope that they can see how much I care about them because as an athlete, I didn't realize how much my coaches cared about me until I graduated and got to know them on a different level than my coaches. I wish that I had experienced my coaches like that because I know that they cared about us in that way.
And so I hope that when my athletes and my girls see me, that's what they feel and experience as their assistant coach. .
[00:24:13] Linda Livingstone: And I can actually tell you that I know that's how they feel, Tommy, because we've got to go to several of Shelby's tournaments and games this year, and the girls would come up to us and just tell us how much they loved Shelby, how happy they were that she was there.
Parents would come up to us and. Say the same thing. So we were very proud parents because they just couldn't say enough about the impact Shelby had, not just on the team, but on the girls or the their daughters personally. So it was very affirming and consistent with what I think she hopes they say, because that's what they're actually saying about her.
[00:24:54] Tommy Thomas: Shelby, how close is the reality of the job, to which you might have thought it was going to be?
[00:24:59] Shelby Livingstone: That's a great question because I think as an athlete you don't realize all that your coaches do. You see them at practice and you think that's all that goes in to their day is just being at a two or three hour practice.
It's definitely been a huge learning curve. Just knowing with recruiting. With scouting other teams, planning practices, all the travel that's involved with recruiting. There's definitely a steep learning curve. But I'm super grateful that I have great people around me to help me learn.
But I think the most surprising piece of being a coach is I am thoroughly convinced after my first semester of coaching, Every coach needs some sort of counseling or seminary ministry degree, because I felt like most, more than maybe 50% of my job this past semester was like I talked about earlier, just sitting with the girls, just listening to them, hearing their hearts, getting to know them, helping them through tough times, and honestly, that's what draws me to coaching. That is really what gets me excited is just living life with these young women. And I really think that my seminary degree, I used it a lot. My counseling classes that I was able to take and honestly not to know the answers, not to these girls' problems, but more so just to listen, to know when to be silent, to know when they just need someone to talk to. And so that was probably the most, the thing that I didn't realize was such a big part of coaching is the relational piece of it, the counseling piece of it to just. And listen to the girls and be there for them in hard times because being a college student is hard.
Being a college student athlete is hard. And so I am just grateful for that piece as well. But it was definitely an more unexpected piece of my first coaching experience.
[00:27:10] Tommy Thomas: Linda, what's the most maybe the hardest, the most difficult decision you've had to make in your career, and how did you come out of it?
[00:27:17] Linda Livingstone: I'm going to mention two things, Tommy, because they're very different. I think one of the hardest things you have to do and that I've had to do several times is of remove people from jobs. People that I knew well and liked well, and maybe even that I'd put in that job at one point or another but recognize that their time in that role needed to end and we needed to move on to somebody else.
And that's extremely difficult to do particularly when you love people a lot but it's the right thing to do for the best of the organization. So that's, some of the hardest decisions I've ever made. The other one is one that so many and so many organizations had to deal with during Covid in Spring of 2020, March of 2020, we had to make the decision to go fully online to shut down our campus as we went into Covid we were at the Big 12 basketball tournament. We had to make the decision to shut down that tournament. So many organizations had to make such hard decisions with limited information during Covid and that decision. And then many decisions that followed that over the next year and a half or so.
We're just really hard ones. And we've tried to focus as a team on some overarching values. The health and safety and wellbeing of our students, faculty and staff had to be the highest priority. The ongoing sustainability of our educational efforts and mission through all of that had to be a high priority, and so every decision we made, We tried to tie it back to some of those overarching goals and values, and it was hard when you had limited information, but when you've got a great team that are all committed to the same thing and trying to make it work it turned out well for us.
But those were really, those were hard and difficult decisions that had huge life impact on so many people.
[00:28:57] Tommy Thomas: What about you, Shelby?
[00:29:00] Shelby Livingstone: Yeah. I would say that the hardest decision was going to Liberty. I had been living in Waco for the past three years. I had been living in Texas since I started at Rice, and I wasn't looking to leave the state of Texas.
And I had, I just felt like I had it all in Waco. I had great friends, great community but once the job at Liberty came to my attention and I started learning more about it, and I met the head coach, and I met this other assistant coach and I met some of the girls. It was one of those things that, yes, like taking the step out and moving to Virginia and leaving everything that you know is going to be really hard and it's going to be challenging, and I really didn't wanna do it at first, but I knew that.
I was just really excited about the growth that I knew was going to come from this challenging new opportunity that was placed in front of me. And I never wanted to look back and think, man, I just stayed with something that was so safe instead of going out and trying something new. I never wanted to regret and look back and wish that I had gone out.
[00:30:15] Shelby Livingstone: Cause I think of any time in my life to do something and to go out and try something new right now in my mid-twenties is the time to do that. And so definitely taking the step of faith to go to Liberty was really challenging and hard. But I think in the end, and so far it's turned. So and has just pushed me and allowed me to grow in new ways that I never expected.
Maybe ways that I didn't want to be pushed and to grow, but that I look back and I'm so grateful for, and I'm so excited to see how my time at Liberty and in Lynchburg continues to not only push me, but how then I can help and push my athlete.
[00:31:02] Tommy Thomas: I listen to Alan Alda's podcast, Clear and Vivid quite a bit, and he always closes by getting people to respond to quotes.
[00:31:10] Tommy Thomas: And his quotes are usually about communication since that's his business. Maybe mine are a little different. So I like to throw these two quotes at the two of you and respond from the chair in which you sit. The first one, Thomas Edison famously said, genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
[00:31:32] Shelby Livingstone: Okay. I really, I like this quote because I think especially in athletics you got to work hard. You have to put in the time in the gym, in the weight room, on the track to achieve the goals, achieve the championships, do the things that you want to be doing. And I've known athletes who are just super athletic, but they don't put that time in. They have all these goals, but they think they can just cruise by and achieve all the things that they want to without the perspiration, without the hard moments, without the hours and hours of extra time in the gym. And I wasn't one of those athletes. I had to put in all the extra work to achieve the things athletically that I wanted to achieve, and.
I think it's just this idea of grit, and I think grit is really something that can separate an athlete from an athlete and a team from a team and a championship level team, from a not championship level team. And so when I look at our team at Liberty, when I look at the teams I've been on, it's. The teams that achieved more than maybe was expected are the teams that had a goal, had this idea of what they wanted their season to look like, but it didn't just stop there.
[00:32:49] Shelby Livingstone: They went out and they did the extra reps and they took the extra time in the weight room. And then those were the teams that were able to achieve all that they wanted to, not because of the 1%, but because of the 99% that they pushed themselves farther than other people.
[00:33:08] Tommy Thomas: Frederick Wilcox said, progress always involves risk. You can't steal second base by keeping your foot on first.
[00:33:18] Linda Livingstone: So I think about my job as a leader. An awful lot of what I do is calculate that risk, reward, trade off, right? Because almost every decision you make, there's risk involved in it, and you have to determine whether that risk is worth the potential reward.
Using the analogy that Wilcox used, the first base coach does not always send that player to second base. They make a calculated decision about how important it is it that we get to second base right now.
- Who's the runner that's on first base?
- Who's the pitcher?
- Who's the catcher?
- What are the chances they're going to get there?
- How important is it right now, at this particular time, that they actually get to second base?
- Is that going to really help us win this game?
I think those are the kind of calculations you make every single day as a leader is you have to take risk to make progress, but you have to be smart about when to take the risk and how to take it to give you the best opportunity for success in that particular moment, given the circumstances.
It's a great quote and it's really important and it's one that as a leader, we spend a lot of time working on is that risk reward calculation.
Thanks to Shelby and Linda Livingstone for taking time from their holiday schedule to be with us today. As you can see from their lives, the coaches they have had have played a big role in helping them become the leaders they are today.
If you're new to the podcast and enjoy the theme, the coaches in my life, you might enjoy the conversation I had with Brody Croyle the former quarterback for the University of Alabama and Kansas City Chiefs and Dr. Terry Franson, prominent track and field coach who coached 123 NAIA, All Americans, 81 national championships and eight Olympians.
In an upcoming episode we'll be talking with Jimmy Mellado, the President & CEO of Compassion International. In addition to discussing leadership and board service we'll discuss jimmy's life as an Olympic athlete.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Baylor University
Liberty University
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Today, we're continuing the conversation with mark McQueen, City Manager, Panama City, Florida. Last week we discussed Mark’s leadership journey from 2nd Lieutenant to Two Star General in the United States Army. This week Mark is talking to us about Hurricane Michael. He had been on the job less than two weeks when Hurricane Michael came ashore in Panama City.
[00:00:09] Tommy Thomas: On October the 10th, 2018, Mark's life along with countless thousands of lives on the Florida Panhandle was changed forever. Hurricane Michael made landfall!
[00:00:21] Tommy Thomas: Rather than get in the way with too many questions, I’m going to let Mark walk us through Michael's approach, landfall and recovery.
[00:00:29] Mark McQueen: Thank you Tommy. That certainly was a a fateful time in this community October 10th, 2018. And what was interesting about that on that day is
Nobody really saw it coming.
[00:00:39] Mark McQueen: It the formulation of the storm happened exceptionally rapidly. I can remember it was coming back from Auburn on Sunday afternoon after attending my niece's wedding on Saturday, on Sunday afternoon, my wife and I were driving back home in on the radio as we were coming through Dothan. We heard, hey, there's a little tropical wave down in off the coast of the Yucatan.
I was like, okay, that's interesting. No big deal. Tropical depression, excuse me. Down off the coast of the Yucatan, no big deal. Nothing to really think of. By Monday there was of a little bit of scuttlebutt. It might turn into a hurricane category one. didn't think anything much of that because, this community's gone through storms after storm, just like most of Florida has.
[00:01:20] Mark McQueen: Then by Tuesday it was like, okay, this is going to be a hurricane, might be a two, could grow to a three. And so that starts getting folks attention. And I can remember it was that Tuesday morning we had a a commission meeting. It was my very first commission meeting and there it was. Very few people there.
By that morning, . Sure enough, it was growing very rapidly. And the county our county government had declared a state of emergency and evacuation. So it, it had gone from this little tropical depression on a Sunday afternoon by Tuesday morning. It was mandatory evacuations and multiple places within the city and Bay County here in the panhandle of Florida.
Sure enough the next day we had Hurricane Michael hit us and hit us pretty hard. And it was it was mostly a wind event, although there was a significant tropical or excuse me, significant rain and storm surge that took place particularly to the east of the eye of the storm hitting our dear sister, city of Mexico Beach very hard with about. 17- or 18-foot storm surge and wiped off the face of the earth that entire city. And they're having a, they're doing a phenomenal job of rebuilding. But the point I guess I'm trying to make is that for, it was like an F five tornado that sat on top of the city for about four hours and we lost all water, all sewer, all power, all communications.
It was total blackout and that lasted for at least two weeks before we got power restored.
In the interim what was interesting Verizon is the. Predominant cellular carrier in the area. I think they had it somewhere between 85-87% of the market share for this area. And they took it on the chin because they're a fiber based type of communication system. And we found out that there was a. At and t and some of the others sprint and T-Mobile had some ability to continue to operate, but very few people had those phones. So communicating with citizens, communicating with staff, communicating with each other, and other governments other city governments and county governments was very difficult.
[00:03:29] Mark McQueen: Extremely difficult. And like I said, it was just pitch black at night and no water, no sewer, no nothing. And a as we emerged from that storm we had about a million trees that were da uprooted and all over the city. And we're talking large trees, a hundred, 150, 2000-year-old pine trees that were here and a hundred year old Oak Century Oaks all over the place.
[00:03:53] Mark McQueen: And we had trains that were laying on their side, railroad trains that were laying on their sides. It was just massive destruction to. . And as I shared earlier that it felt like for me being on another deployment, in a war-torn country, and that was okay. We've gotta get on with this.
We've got to find a way. First and foremost is meet the needs of our citizens. Safety and security, getting them food and water helping them in their current condition because their homes were decimated. Their lives were totally. Different than they were just four hours earlier.
And that became the focus of what we did to meet the immediate needs. But as you're meeting the immediate needs of your citizens, the same thing as you've got to start charting simultaneously and unparallel, where are you going? What is your future direction for how you're going to recover the city?
[00:04:45] Mark McQueen: And working out of a very grateful to Verizon that gave us a a emergency trailer that we could work out of. The mayor and I and a couple of the staff, we started banging out what our vision would be for the city is we wanted to emerge from the storm. And so eventually the whole point was to create this strategic campaign strategy for how we were going to rebuild the city while simultaneously meeting the immediate needs of our citizens.
That was very difficult. Very difficult because our city employees were. also harmed by the storm. And so for the city employees that are essential workers, you depend on all of your city employees. Doesn't matter what your municipality is, but for your water lines, your sewer lines, your police, your fire all of the functions that city government does.
All of those employees were, their homes were destroyed and uprooted and lives were forever changed. And so helping them, To get in temporary lodging so that they could help the citizens was so important so that we could start the recovery efforts and clearly very fortunate Governor Scott at the time. And then within a few weeks we had a statewide election and Governor DeSantis, who is just in a phenomenal job of helping us in recovery from Hurricane Michael. There was an enormous commitment from the state to bring in outside resources to help. So please fire emergency services and then the benevolence of nonprofits organizations, faith-based organizations that would pour it into this community.
[00:06:17] Mark McQueen: To help us in our great time of needs. It was classic neighbors helping neighbors and doing it for the absolute right reasons. Not for attention, not for any notoriety, not for any game. It was just people coming from all over the United States coming to this community to help us in our darkest hour.
And so as a result of that, it was just a, it was really. Transformative time for the city and forever changed the direction that the city was going on going in pre-storm to post storm.
Coming out of the storm we had the desire to become the premier city in the Panhandle of Florida.
[00:06:56] Mark McQueen: That's our stated objective. And why not? We're the largest city between Tallahassee and Pensacola. We have attributes going for us in terms of the industrial base, the intercoastal waterway, the medical capacity, financial institutions, education institutions commerce corridors, and nonetheless are citizens, the great asset of this community and
And so from that we focused on four things, and this is very akin to a lot of the campaign strategy that we used in the military. So, number one, priority, safety and security of our people, their property and the environment. We worked really hard to maintain that safety and security, and we continue to do to.
[00:07:33] Mark McQueen: So to this day, the second thing we focused on is the infrastructure, the key and vital infrastructure, the water, the sewer, storm drain systems, the roadway networks all of those things that are vital to create the connective tissue and support of the essential services in support of our citizens and businesses.
The third thing we're focusing on is the economy. Making, rebuilding an economy to make it more robust and resilient, to be that creating that irreversible momentum of the economy to continue to grow in. The fourth is gonna be quality of life that which knits people together, enriches people's lives and all the dimensions of that, whether it's parks and recreation to marinas, to walkability, bikeability, the arts, the history, the culture houses of worship, all of those things are necessary to set the conditions for becoming the premier city in the panhandle.
[00:08:22] Tommy Thomas: As you think you had to deal with FEMA and the federal and state government drawing back on your military experience what was the lessons that you brought forward as you had to go make your appeal for the funding and probably face rejection? I'm sure two or three times along the way before you begin to get it.
[00:08:42] Mark McQueen: Yeah. The US Congress established through the Stafford Act, the funding mechanism for FEMA to be able to exist, and I will tell you that FEMA is full of great Americans that are committed to helping rebuild communities after an emergency declaration.
What's interesting, I did learn is that there, there are roughly about 50 to 60 federally declared disasters across the United States and all of its territories every single year. And so, it's a massive effort that FEMA has to deal with. Every year to support the citizens of this great nation, and they are great citizens.
I think that over time the bureaucracy has just grown to become such a behemoth that it's not very efficient or effective in getting things done nimbly. and with agility.
You asked what was the difference between this experience and my military experience? And in many cases, you could rebuild foreign countries faster than you can build, rebuild your own community in the United States of America.
And it's not because of anything else other than the massive amount of bureaucracy and review and process that has to be employed by FEMA to ensure that. correctly and appropriately being good stewards of the federal taxpayer's dollars. I'm not throwing a rock at them, it's just, it's massively bureaucratic, which, here we are four, four years post storm and we're clearly still in recovery and will be for probably four or five more years to be able to rebuild our city.
[00:10:22] Mark McQueen: And it's, wildly expensive. But with, again, if the people have no vision, they will perish. And we had to strike that vision. That's why we're gonna be the premier city in the Panhandle Florida. And the four lines of efforts of everything we're doing is pouring into rebuilding our city to be that premier.
[00:10:42] Tommy Thomas: What was the nearest thing in your military experience that, that approximated Michael?
[00:10:47] Mark McQueen: Just been in three areas. Certainly Bosnia. After to implement the Dayton Peace Accords. So you had the warring factions there. Been over to Afghanistan, certainly Iraq very much very akin, very different environment.
But nonetheless, when you have communities that have been destroyed through war. or through natural disasters, the end result is chaos and disruption of life. And there's a lot of parallels there. Fortunately, bullets aren't flying here in the United States and certainly not in Panama City.
What we're doing is we're fundamentally rebuilding, and that's a very akin to what I experienced being in those deployments
Additionally, I shared earlier about one of the things we were involved in was humanitarian assistance operations. And that was very formative in my military career and certainly coming out of Hurricane Michael.
Certainly, in the initial months it was about humanitarian assistance. How do you meet the immediate needs of people in their greatest time of need? And how do you help? International organizations now non-profit organizations, private volunteer organizations, faith-based organizations to help them to get resources to people in their time of need.
It's it was challenging to be sure but clearly the experience in the, my journey, my walk, my experience in the United States Army certainly helped me personally to be aware of some of the issues that may come up and how you can help better meet the needs of your citizens, not only their immediate needs.
[00:12:17] Mark McQueen: Their long-term needs, which would be having a society in a city that would be able to help them to get their kids back in school, help them to be able to get their businesses back up and running. Help them to be able to get their homes reestablished, getting their lives back to a sense of new normal that they would be experiencing.
[00:12:38] Tommy Thomas: So, is there a playbook now or anything that y'all have developed post mihael that that you would turn to? the next time
[00:12:46] Mark McQueen: around. It's it is funny you asked that, Tommy, because just about five or six weeks ago, our dear neighbors to this in South Florida were hit by Hurricane Ian, an incredible storm that had catastrophic damage to the peninsula of the southern p southwest corner of the state of Florida and certainly the peninsula. And went on up into the car, Georgia and the Carolinas. And the mayor and I were asked to go down to Fort Myers Beach and help that community.
That got hit pretty hard because of Hurricane Ian. And that's exactly what we did, Tommy, is we took our playbook and said here are lessons that we've learned. Here are things that we're recommending that you look at doing that worked well for us that will help you to set the conditions for your success in recovery.
And we spent a lot of time helping them in those initial weeks and have continued to do so in the in. Lee County area. In fact there was a team from my police department that here we are, like I said, six weeks after the storm, I think it may be seven weeks. And we're still sending folks down there.
We sent a team of our law enforcement teammates to go on down to Sanibel Island to help them as they opened up the island to allow citizens to start getting on with recovery on of their homes and their businesses.
Yeah, there is a playbook and it establishes a framework for how to rebuild after a catastrophic event such as a hurricane.
And not that it's a cookie cutter, but it sure gives you a framework and some general guidelines of how you may want to consider recovering. And we absolutely wanted to share that with our dear neighbors to the South that suffered so badly from Hurricane Ian.
[00:14:23] Tommy Thomas: I can relate to Mark's comments about have we, we're not expecting a huge hurricane. My wife, Nancy and I had moved to the beach a couple of weeks before. For hurricane Michael hit. I remember Nancy coming in one afternoon saying we should evacuate. At first, I didn't take her very seriously, but as we listened to the radio and talk to people in the area, we decided that was best.
The nearest pet friendly accommodations were at the Hampton Inn in Auburn. So we packed up a few clothes. But Bella and snowball into the truck and drove north. Words can't describe what we returned to.
The Florida Panhandle is four years into rebuilding from Hurricane Michael. There are still scars from the damage that Michael inflicted on the area, but we are recovering. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to Mark and the other government and civic leaders who stepped up big time in the aftermath of Michael.
Next week we continue the subsidiaries. The Coaches in my Life our guests are
- Dr. Linda Livingstone, the president of Baylor university and
- Shelby Livingstone (her daughter) who is the Assistant Volleyball Coach at Liberty University.
Both women excelled in intercollegiate athletics in their undergraduate days, they will be sharing with us some of the life and leadership lessons they learned from The Coaches in Their Lives.
Show Notes
2:00 – Mark’s early years. Raised as the son of a military officer.
4:00 – Mark’s dad wounded in combat in Vietnam
5:00 – Mark never dreamed of a career in the military
7:00 – Mark’s first military command position
9:00 – Serving under 4-star General Crosbie E Saint
14:00 – Mark’s decision to retire from the US Army
18:00 – Leadership Lessons that Mark brought from the army to the nonprofit sector
22:00 – What Mark looks for in a new hire
24:00 – Mark’s observations on what derails leader’s careers
26:00 – Every assignment isn’t always what you expect
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Today we are taking a break from the standard format. Our guest is Dave Combs. You probably don’t recognize his name but I imagine you have heard his easy-listening hit Rachel’s Song.
I met Dave through his wife, Dr. Linda Combs, who was a guest earlier this year. Dave has an amazing story of how the recording of the first song he ever wrote literally changed his life and the lives of millions around the world.
We don’t have show notes today because for the most part Dave is sharing his story with us.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Dave Combs Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Show Notes
1:30 – Ted Grossnickle share his first nonprofit Board experience
5:00 – Rebecca Bassinger shares her first nonprofit Board experience
6:30 – Dr. Ben Sells – President of Ouachita Baptist University shares reflections on the purpose of the nonprofit Board
8:00 – Dr. Sells continues on Board meeting improvement
14:00 – Dr. Rebecca Bassinger shares her thoughts the ideal nonprofit Board Chair the CEO / Board Chair working relationship
18:30 – Atul Tandon – CEO for Opportunity International talks about how the Opportunity International Board works on being a highly functioning Board
23:00 – Barry Rowan on nonprofit Board term limits
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
David Williams: Leadership at Habitat, Make a Wish and more...
Dr. Ben Sells - Insights Into Nonprofit Board Service
Rebekah Basinger: How Someone with Aspirations of Becoming a College Professor Became a Renowned Authority in Nonprofit Board Governance
Ted Grossnickle - The Effective Nonprofit Board
Atul Tandon - Principles of Effective Board Service
Barry Rowan - Reflections from Attending at Least One Board Meeting Every Quarter for the Past 40 Years - Part 1
Barry Rowan - Reflections from Attending at Least One Board Meeting Every Quarter for the Past 40 Years - Part 2
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Show Notes
1:30 – Greg Pope – his first nonprofit Board experience
4:37 – Gail Ebersole – her first nonprofit Board experience
6:40 – Ted Grossnickle – his first nonprofit Board experience
10:30 – David Williams – his experience on working with Boards of different size organizations
15:30 – Dee Dee Collins / Joe Mettimano – how they keep Board service at Central Union Mission fun and enjoyable
18:30 – Atul Tandon – the criticality of the nonprofit CEO / Board relationahip
23:00 – Dan DePee / Harry Kunze – restructuring the nonprofit Board
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
David Williams: Leadership at Habitat, Make a Wish and more...
Harry Kunze & Dan DuPee - Lessons on Board Development - the Courage to Change
Gail Ebersole and Dan McWilliams - Their Leadership Journeys
Ted Grossnickle - The Effective Nonprofit Board
Atul Tandon - Principles of Effective Board Service
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Today we continue the conversation that we began with Dean Owen in the episode: Dean Owen – Now is too late – the Rapidly Changing World of Corporate Communications – Part 1
Show Notes
1:00 Reputational Crisis
4:00 What should nonprofit Board Members do in when an nonprofit organizations has a crisis
6:30 The Five C’s - Conflict, Criticism, Controversy, Celebrities and Catastrophes.
10:30 The first 100 days for a new Chief Communications Officer
14:40 Dean’s response to the quote by Sidney Harris – “Information is giving out. Communication is getting through”
17:50 Dean's response to David Carson’s quote “Never mistake legibility for communication”
19:00 Dean’s reflections on writing the book November 22, 1963: Reflections on the Life, Assassination, and Legacy of John F. Kennedy
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Now is Too Late - Survival in an Era of Instant News by Gerald R. Baron
November 22, 1963: Reflections on the Life, Assassination, and Legacy of John F. Kennedy by Dean Owen
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Dean Owen's LinkedIn Profile
Show Notes
2:30 – Gail and Dan share their memories of the first time they had to manage a staff team
6:00 – Gail and Dan talk about what they are looking for when they hire someone
11:00 – How do you “nurture the individual soul?”
14:00 – What do you want to tell the next generation about leaving a legacy?
18:00 – Second Chances
20:00 – What the most difficult decision you have had to make?
24:00 – Gail discusses her first Board of Directors
29:00 – Dan shares what he would say to someone who came to him seeking advice about whether to accept a promotion
31:00 – Gail shares her counsel to someone asking her advice on whether to become the Chairman of the Board of a nonprofit
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Today, we're continuing our conversation we began last week with Ted Grossnickle. Ted is a former chair of the Giving Institute. He serves on the board of Garrett Theological Seminary, and is counselor to The Generosity Commission. We continue our conversation on giving and voluntary action. Ted is serving his second term on the Indiana University Lilly Family School of Philanthropy, Board of Visitors. Ted brings decades of experience to the conversation about fundraising, philanthropy, generosity, and volunteerism.
Show Notes
1:30 – The relationship between the CEO and the Chief Development Officer
6:00 – Ted’s recollections of the first nonprofit Board on which he served
7:00 – The importance of asking questions in a Board Meeting
10:00 – The importance of diversity (age, gender, community stature, etc.) for the nonprofit Board.
12:00 – Board Improvement
14:00 – Risk Management
16:00 – The Executive Committee
19:00 – Words and phrases that describe the best Board Chair Ted has served under
23:00 – The CEO Evaluation and Succession Planning
25:00 – Counsel to the incoming Board Chair
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Johnson, Grossnickle + Associates
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Ted Grossnickle's LinkedIn Profile
Our guest today is Ted Grossnickel. Ted is the principal and chairman of the board at Johnson Grossnickel and Associates. After graduation from Wabash College, he worked at Procter and Gamble, his alma mater, and then at Northern Illinois University where he served several roles, including advancement and corporate relations.
From 1983 to 1993, he served as vice president of development in public affairs for Franklin College, and then as their acting president in 1993, he co-founded JGA with Don Johnson in 1994. Ted chaired the working committee to plan the Generosity Commission and is now counselor to the commission, which had a recent meeting in September.
Show Notes
3:00 – Ted remembers his first job as a fundraising professional
4:30 – Ted remembers his first “major gift”
6:00 – The Generosity Commission and Giving USA
14:00 – Has the pandemic fundamentally changed philanthropy?
17:00 – How has the field of philanthropy changed over the past 30-40 years?
21:00 – Qualities of a great major gifts officer
26:00 – How long does it take to nurture and receive a legacy gift?
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Johnson, Grossnickle + Associates
Giving USA / The Generosity Commission
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Ted Grossnickle's LinkedIn Profile
Show Notes
1:00 - Early in the episode Bob Tiede gives some context as to how Leader Development was done in Cru in the early days and how that has evolved and progressed to the Leader Development Model they use today.
7:00 – Barry talks about the size of the cohort and some of the details of how the cohort works, frequency of meetings, etc.
8:17 – Experiential Learning
11:00 – The 24-Hour Challenge Barry shares about what he learned from his Sunday School co-leader about developing training models
14:00 – As a direction setter, the leader must make sure that every person on his/her team can answer these three questions.
- What is the Mission
- What is my part in the Mission
- How do I do my part in the Mission
18:00 – How Bob Tiede recruited business executives from the private sector to be “coaches” for these emerging leaders
23:00 – Using Strength Finders to match the coach with the emerging leader
26:00 – The advantages of having a diverse cohort. Diversity in age, gender, ethnicity, area of work, etc.
28:00 – Lessons learned during / from the pandemic
32:00 – Dee Dee, Barry and Bob’s wiliness to help people in other nonprofit organizations think through what this kind of Leader Development might look like in their organization
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
The Art of Virtue-Based Transformational Leadership - Mark McCloskey
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Barry Rush - barry.rush@cru.org
Dee Dee Rush - deedee.rush@cru.org
Bob Tiede - bob.tiede@cru.org
Show Notes
1:00 – Dee Dee, Barry and Bob share their remembrances of their first team leadership role
5:00 – Not every leadership role turns out as expected
7:00 – Bob shares his experience as the President of the Josh McDowell Ministry
10:00 – Bob, Dee Dee and Barry share their greatest challenge and how they responded
14:30 – Barry, Bob and Dee Dee share the most difficult decision they have had to make as ministry leaders
18:00 – Habits or traits that can derail successful leaders
29:00 – Great leaders ask questions. They don’t think they need to have all the answers
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Link to book Superbia - Dr. Steven Willing
The Art of Virtue Based Transformational Leadership - Mark McCloskey
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Barry Rush - barry.rush@cru.org
Dee Dee Rush - deedee.rush@cru.org
Bob Tiede - bob.tiede@cru.org
Show Notes
1:27: How the assassination of John F. Kennedy influenced Dean’s career decision
2:27: Undergraduate work at UC – Berkeley and first job in journalism.
7:04: Dean’s first management position
10:06: What is difficult about working for Dean Owen?
11:54: Communications and the nonprofit sector
17:23: Data-driven story telling
19:46: Communications challenges at World Vision
21:42: Bob Sieple’s (World Vision President) first Op-Ed piece
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Now is Too Late - Survival in an Era of Instant News by Gerald R. Baron
November 22, 1963: Reflections on the Life, Assassination, and Legacy of John F. Kennedy by Dean Owen
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
If you listened to last week’s episode, you can see how difficult it is to write classical show notes for a conversation with Dr. Combs. She is so conversational and has mastered the art of storytelling.
Show Notes
0:42 – Dr. Combs shares how the Controller’s Office of the State of North Carolina was prepared (well in advance) for the realities of off-site operations caused by the Covid pandemic. She was ready for something like a pandemic because of her work in various crises while serving in Washington DC.
13:46 – Dr. Combs shares her approach to problem-solving.
17:57 – I asked Dr. Combs what she believes her greatest strength to be. She talks about building relationships and maintaining relationships.
23:17 – Dr. Combs shares what is going on in her heart and mind when she has to make the decision on whether to give someone a “second chance”.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Linda Combs' LinkedIn Profile
Today we are talking with Dr. Linda Combs. She has served in senior leadership roles in the administrations of president Ronald Reagan, president George HW, Bush and president George W Bush. She had five presidential appointments, which means she has survived five Senate confirmation hearings.
She served as a Chief Financial Officer for the US Department of Transportation and the US Environmental Protection Agency. Additionally, she was confirmed for senior leadership roles in the Department of Education, the Department of Veteran Affairs, and the US Department of the Treasury. She recently retired after serving eight years as Controller for the State of North Carolina
She took her BS and Master's Degrees from Appalachia State University, and her doctorate from Virginia Tech.
Show Notes
2:28 - Childhood
6:39 - How does someone get from the schoolhouse to the White House?
12:17 - The first phone call that changed Dr. Combs’ life
19:00 - The second phone call that changed Dr. Combs’ life
25:00 - Dr. Combs goes to Washington
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Linda Combs' LinkedIn Profile
Show Notes
2:24 – The CEO / Board Chair working relationship / Dr. William Ryan’s workshop
5:18 – Who sets the agenda for the Board Meeting
6:23 – Board Composition
7:35 – Recruiting new Board Members at Opportunity International
9:25 – What keeps a nonprofit Board from functioning effectively?
13:55 – What are you doing to strengthen the Opportunity International Board?
19:00 – What’s the best thing a Board can do for a new CEO?
20:00 – Succession Planning
24:00 – Atul’s counsel to someone asking for advice on whether to become a Board Chair
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Opportunity International Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Atul Tandon's LinkedIn Profile
Time Stamps
4:00 – Atul shares about his transition from Citibank to World Vision
5:04 – Atul shares about growing up in India in a family of very little means
6:35 – Lessons that are transferrable from the private sector to the nonprofit sector
8:31 – Unleashing the strengths of those around you and celebrating the wins
9:49 – Early days at World Vision
12:36 – What Atul must have in any leadership role he accepts
15:00 – Lessons learned in hard times
23:00 – Common traits of all effective leaders
25:00 – Most common issue that can derail the career of a leader
26:16 – The nonprofit and risk management
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Opportunity International Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Atul Tandon's LinkedIn Profile
Today we are talking with Greg Pope – Chief Mission Integration Officer at Ascension Saint Thomas in Nashville.
You may remember Greg from the episode, How Garrison Keillor and Lake Wobegon Launched his Career in Philanthropy. Well today, we're going to switch gears from discussing philanthropy to getting Greg’s insights into Nonprofit Board Service.
Time Stamps
0:40 – Greg talks about his first nonprofit Board experience
3:50 – Greg’s counsel to those who think they want to start a nonprofit
7:41 – the difference between a Board of Directors and a Board of Reference or Advisory Board
9:28 – What determines the composition of a nonprofit Board?
12:10 – Greg’s thoughts on having a “glass if half empty” person on the Board
15:17 – What makes a good nonprofit Board Chair?
19:32 – The nonprofit CEO Evaluation
24:53 – Greg’s counsel to anyone who thinks they want or need to start a new nonprofit
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Greg Pope's LinkedIn Profile
Whether we realize it or not, each of us benefits from the work of the nonprofit sector. A strong nonprofit sector is key to thriving communities. At Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas, we are on a journey – a journey to play a small part in equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Unlike similar shows where the guests often make their living writing, teaching, or speaking about leadership, our guests are seasoned leaders, and there is something we can learn from their experience that will make the nonprofit stronger and more effective.
Every day, nonprofits feed, heal, shelter, educate, inspire, and nurture people of every age, race, and socioeconomic status. The common thread that runs through each nonprofit story is that the impact of the organization rises and falls on leadership – leadership throughout the organization and leadership at the board level.
Join me, Dr. Tommy Thomas as we talk with Ben Sells – President of Ouachita Baptist University about nonprofit Board Service.
Time Stamps
0:52 – The purpose of a nonprofit Board
8:26 – What does a Board Chair do to draw quite members into the conversation?
9:50 – The selection of the Board Chair
12:38 – What questions is the Ouachita Board asking itself these days?
17:36 – The Board and Risk Management
18:54 – Closing remarks – Counsel to an incoming Board Chair
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Ouachita Baptist University Website
Ouachita Baptist University FaceBook Page
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Whether we realize it or not, each of us benefits from the work of the nonprofit sector. A strong nonprofit sector is key to thriving communities. At Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas, we are on a journey – a journey to play a small part in equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Unlike similar shows where the guests often make their living writing, teaching, or speaking about leadership, our guests are seasoned leaders, and there is something we can learn from their experience that will make the nonprofit stronger and more effective.
Every day, nonprofits feed, heal, shelter, educate, inspire, and nurture people of every age, race, and socioeconomic status. The common thread that runs through each nonprofit story is that the impact of the organization rises and falls on leadership – leadership throughout the organization and leadership at the board level.
Join me, Dr. Tommy Thomas as we talk with Barry Rowan about lessons, he has learned about Board Service as a result of attending at least one Board meeting per quarter for the past 40 years.
Time Stamps
1:09 – How to use the Executive Committee
2:00 – the Ideal Size of a Board
4:30 – Word and Phrases that describe the Ideal Board Chair
10:30 – The Nonprofit Board and Strategic Planning
13:37 – The Nonprofit Board’s Role in the CEO Evaluation
15:30 – The Nonprofit Board and Financial Accountability
17:30 – The Nonprofit Board and Risk Mitigation
22:45 – Board Turnover
26:50 – The Board, The CEO and Succession Planning
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Barry Rowan's LinkedIn Profile
Whether we realize it or not, each of us benefits from the work of the nonprofit sector. A strong nonprofit sector is key to thriving communities. At Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas, we are on a journey – a journey to play a small part in equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Unlike similar shows where the guests often make their living writing, teaching, or speaking about leadership, our guests are seasoned leaders, and there is something we can learn from their experience that will make the nonprofit stronger and more effective.
Every day, nonprofits feed, heal, shelter, educate, inspire, and nurture people of every age, race, and socioeconomic status. The common thread that runs through each nonprofit story is that the impact of the organization rises and falls on leadership – leadership throughout the organization and leadership at the board level.
Join me, Dr. Tommy Thomas as we talk with David Williams about his leadership journey through the Houston Food Bank, Habitat for Humanity International, Make a Wish Foundation and currently – Shelters to Shutters.
Time Stamps
2:21 – David responds to the question “what’s been the secret for staying with three organizations for over a decade each?”
5:24 – What’s the most difficult part of working with David Williams?
7:05 – What’s the most rewarding aspect of working for David Williams?
9:18 – David’s early days with the Houston Food Bank
11:53 – Raising money for the Houston Food Bank
14:47 – The different competencies between the roles of Chief Operating Officer and Chief Executive Officer
17:23 – David discusses the role of Boards in different sized organizations
22:24 – Board Culture – what kind of culture makes for an effective Board
25:41 – The ideal Board Chair
30:00 – How long should the term be for a Board Chair?
32:00 – Evaluating Board Meetings
36:00 – The CEO Evaluation and the Board
41:00 – “If you had a do-over in your career, what would it be?”
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
David Williams' LinkedIn Profile
Whether we realize it or not, each of us benefits from the work of the nonprofit sector. A strong nonprofit sector is key to thriving communities. At Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas, we are on a journey – a journey to play a small part in equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Unlike similar shows where the guests often make their living writing, teaching, or speaking about leadership, our guests are seasoned leaders, and there is something we can learn from their experience that will make the nonprofit stronger and more effective.
Every day, nonprofits feed, heal, shelter, educate, inspire, and nurture people of every age, race, and socioeconomic status. The common thread that runs through each nonprofit story is that the impact of the organization rises and falls on leadership – leadership throughout the organization and leadership at the board level.
Join me, Dr. Tommy Thomas as we talk with DeeDee Collins, Board Chair for Central Union Mission and Joe Mettimano, the President and CEO of Central Union Mission. I met DeeDee when our firm was selected to help the Board of Central Union Mission find a successor to a long serving and beloved Executive Director.
Listen to their story about how they have crafted and honed a successful working relationship.
Time Stamps
1:11 – Joe shares a bit about the history of Central Union Mission and the scope of services offered
4:08 – DeeDee shares the context of the search that brought Joe in as CEO
8:22 – Joe and DeeDee begin to discuss the working relationship between the CEO and Board Chair
12:27 – Board turnover and what DeeDee does to minimize this
16:19 – Board Meeting Evaluation Process
17:10 – Term Limits
21:20 – Bylaws and Policy Manual
23:42 – The Board, the Staff and Strategic Planning
25:23 – How Central Union Missions selects the next Board Chair
29:49 – What Joe learned from former World Vision President – Rich Stearns – about using a President’s Report in the Board Book for the upcoming Board Meetings
32:37 – Risk Management physical plant security, personnel security, data and confidential information, active shooter
34:57 – Risk Management – How to ensure that risk management is integrated into the fabric of the culture and not left in a binder on the shelf
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Central Union Mission Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Joe Mettimano's LinkedIn Profile
Whether we realize it or not, each of us benefits from the work of the nonprofit sector. A strong nonprofit sector is key to thriving communities. At Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas, we are on a journey – a journey to play a small part in equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Unlike similar shows where the guests often make their living writing, teaching, or speaking about leadership, our guests are seasoned leaders, and there is something we can learn from their experience that will make the nonprofit stronger and more effective.
Every day, nonprofits feed, heal, shelter, educate, inspire, and nurture people of every age, race, and socioeconomic status. The common thread that runs through each nonprofit story is that the impact of the organization rises and falls on leadership – leadership throughout the organization and leadership at the board level.
Join me, Dr. Tommy Thomas as we talk with Greg Pope, the Chief Mission Integration Officer at Ascension / St. Thomas Healthcare network in Nashville.
Greg shares his humble beginnings in Dayton, Tennessee where his dad was in the shoe retail business. It is interesting that Greg and his brother both ended up working with major healthcare networks in the midsouth.
Greg is a bit unusual in that what he thought would be a two-year commitment to Ascension St. Thomas has turned into a 27+ year career.
In this episode Greg shares how he got his start in fundraising and how the field has changed throughout his career.
Time Stamps
2:06 – Greg talks about his childhood and being raised in a family where his dad had a retail shoe business and preached on the weekends
6:32 – What Greg thought would be a two year commitment to (at the time) St. Thomas Hospital turned into a 27+ year career with Ascension St. Thomas
10:49 – Greg discusses what he is looking for when he hires a major gifts officer
12:30 – The “secret sauce” to Greg’s management success
15:46 – The challenges that one might experience when working for Greg
17:38 – Greg talks about what it would be like to be a member of his senior leadership team
20:57 – Greg discusses how he and his team handled the rebranding of Ascension St. Thomas. Rebranding being defined as changing the logo, NOT changing the mission. There was a lot more turmoil and consumer reaction than one might imagine.
24:28 – As we often close episodes, Dr. Thomas asked Greg what counsel he is giving those who come to him wanting to discuss a career in Development / Advancement / Philanthropy
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Ascension St. Thomas Website
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy's LinkedIn Profile
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
Greg Pope's LinkedIn Profile
Our guest today is Dr. Ben Sells – President of Ouachita Baptist University. I first met Dr. Sells when I was conducting the president search for a small liberal arts college in the Midwest. Although he wasn’t the successful candidate, we became friends and have kept in contact with each other over the years. Recently I had the privilege of work for Dr. Sells when he retained our firm (JobfitMatters Executive Search) to conduct the search for the Vice President for Academic Affairs at Ouachita.
Time Stamps
2:19 – Dr. Sells talks about being raised in a home where his dad was a university president and how that probably impacted and influenced his career path
4:09 – Dr. Sells discusses how Higher Education has changes over the years (and yet when he looks back at some of the Board Minutes from when his dad was a college president, they are dealing with a lot of the same issues)
5:32 – His charge by the Board of Trustees at Ouachita Baptist University when he accepted their offer to be the President.
11:31 - Dr. Sells explains his philosophy of making sure that his direct reports are prepared for their next career move
21:00 – The most ambitious project Dr. Sells has undertaken
28:24 – Dr. Sells’ advice to someone who is considering their first college/university presidency'
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters Website
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas
Ouachita Baptist University Website
Ouachita Baptist University FB Page
Connect
Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
My guest today wears so many hats that there are so many different directions in which this conversation with him could have gone. Barry Rowan spent his undergraduate days at the College of Idaho where he got a degree in Business Administration and Chemical Biology. He was also a member of the Varsity Ski Team at the College of Idaho, but perhaps what's most poignant about Barry is the fact that he has been in either a nonprofit or private sector boardroom for nearly forty years, and it's all of this board experience that we talk about in this episode of the podcast!
Barry details his board experience, including his very first board and what got him into this field in the first place. He touches upon what drives him and reveals why he only serves on two nonprofit boards simultaneously. Barry also offers his perspective on what the key responsibilities of a board are (including but not limited to ensuring that the board has the right kind of leader), the best onboarding practices, the pros and cons of term limits, and so much more!
It takes a special calling to be an influential board member, and can you imagine being in a board meeting every quarter for forty years? This is only the first part featuring Barry, so stay tuned for the completion of this conversation in a future episode. Next week out guest will be Dr. Ben Sells - President of Ouachita Baptist University where we discuss "the changing landscape of higher education". Thank you for joining us today, and don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership! I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it, especially since word-of-mouth tends to be the most effective type of marketing!
Time Stamps
[1:11] – Tommy gives us some background info on today's guest, Barry Rowan.
[2:37] – Barry goes into more detail about his board experience.
[3:28] – Barry reflects on his very first board experience.
[4:57] – Learn what Barry's main motivation is.
[7:09] – Barry touches upon the pros and cons of how boards are composed.
[9:25] – Discover what the best practices are for appointing people to a board.
[11:24] – Barry explains why everyone on a board needs to be objective.
[12:47] – Barry offers his perspective on the key responsibilities of a nonprofit board.
[14:09] – Barry argues that onboarding needs to be very intentional.
[15:42] – What is the most important thing that a board can do for a new C.E.O.?
[17:23] – Barry weighs the pros and cons of term limits.
[20:07] – What tools does Barry recommend for board effectiveness evaluation?
[22:32] – Barry encourages us to be mindful of the board culture.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
jobfitmatters.com/podcast
Email Tommy: tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
I learned about today's guest indirectly through a speaker at my Rotary Club. Stacey Legg, the Program Coordinator at Elevate Bay spoke at one of our meetings. Elevate Bay is an organization that works in the Bay County School District providing mentors for at-risk students. One of the schools she mentioned that needed mentors was West Bay Elementary which is about 10 minutes from our house.
Although Nancy and I had never had children and certainly didn't know much about working with second and third graders, we signed up, went through the orientation, and were assigned students at West Bay. This September, we began our third year as mentors. The young student I met as a second grader will be a fourth grader in September.
So that's how I became acquainted with Deniese Moss and the amazing work she is doing as the principal of West Bay Elementary School.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [2:15] – We’re introduced to our guest, Deniece Moss, and learn what kind of an impact a mentor can make by spending 30 minutes a week with a student.
[3:40] – What does Deniece remember from her childhood that prepared her for the life she has today?
[4:19] – This is how Deniece has learned to incorporate faith into the public school system.
[5:32] – We learn about Deniece’s most influential teacher she had as a child and the best principal she ever worked for.
[8:42] – Deniece takes us back to 2015 and her decision to move to administration.
[10:30] – These are the measures that Deniece’s school takes for the safety of its students.
[11:41] – The demographics and culture at West Bay Elementary School, according to Deniece.
[14:00] – Deniece talks about the House System at West Bay.
[15:46] – We hear about the friendly competitions between Houses that result in charitable donations and drives for the school and community.
[17:10] – The “bumper sticker” for West Bay.
[19:12] – Deniece talks about the school’s interactions with parents.
[21:44] – What is the greatest challenge, controversy, or crisis Deniece and her team faced?
[24:10] – We hear what Deniece does to maintain a work/life balance.
[25:11] – Deniece reveals what she would do-over early in her life and also shares her advice for those following in her footsteps.
[26:45] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Our guest today is Dr. Angela Sims, the President of Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School. Dr. Sims is the first woman President of Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School, she's the first President to lead the school at its new location, and she's also the first black woman President to lead any Rochester area college.
Some of you might remember Dr. Rebecca Basinger from an earlier episode. As I was finishing up the conversation with Rebecca that day, I asked her for the names of a couple of people that she thought would make an interesting guest. Dr. Sims was at the top of her list.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:50] – We’re introduced to Dr. Angela Sims and learn about some of the early experiences in her career that shaped who she is today.
[4:50] – Dr. Angela gives us a thumbnail sketch of her academic career prior to her presidency.
[7:38] – We hear about how Dr. Angela’s early career path was possible because of the ways her colleagues had invested in her.
[9:42] – How does someone who enjoys the classroom make the move to administration?
[11:33] – This is how Dr. Angela made the decision that leadership at Crozer was right for her.
[12:52] – Dr. Angela provides commentary about the location of her institution.
[15:24] – Inheriting the location was also an opportunity. Dr. Angela explains how.
[16:07] – The way Dr. Angela has used social media allows her team to connect with the community beyond the geographical location.
[18:56] – What would the interview process look like for a senior position on Dr. Angela’s staff?
[20:55] – This is the most difficult part and the most exciting part about working for Dr. Sims, in her opinion.
[21:40] – We hear how Dr. Angela uses the board for fundraising.
[24:39] – Does Dr. Angela use her board in strategic planning?
[26:56] – Dr. Angela shares her thoughts about whether she believes the board talks enough about risk.
[29:30] – Dr. Angela reveals how she and her board evaluated her annual evaluation.
[32:10] – Does Dr. Sims bring her senior staff to board meetings for parts of the meeting?
[33:12] – Tommy brings the conversation to a close with his closing questions about do-overs and advice for the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Harry on LinkedIn
Follow Angela on Twitter
My guests today are Harry Kunze and Dan DuPee. These men have a long-standing board relationship with the Coalition for Christian Outreach. Dan is a former President of the CCO and most recently served as Interim President. Harry has a longstanding board relationship.
I've gotten to know these two men over the past year as our firm has helped them with their President search. And it was through this work with the CCO that I thought their story of board development and revitalization was something worth passing on to the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:57] – Dan PuPee gives us a brief understanding of the mission and vision of CCO, and we learn what drew Harry Kunze to the CCO.
[3:57] – Dan reveals what brought him to the CCO.
[5:14] – We hear a little context for the history of the board of directors from Dan.
[7:10] – Harry shares an alternative perspective about the board of directors.
[8:18] – What size board did Dan and Harry have in the beginning?
[9:09] – This is what caused Harry and Dan to rethink boardsmanship at the CCO.
[11:25] – Harry recalls the benchmarking they did to form a perspective on how the board ought to operate.
[13:38] – We learn what Dan and Harry landed on for an ideal size of their board.
[14:40] – How did Harry and Dan decide to have a governance committee?
[16:42] – What does the committee structure look like today?
[19:52] – The conversation shifts to term limits.
[22:00] –This is how the surplus responded to the downsizing of the board.
[22:56] – Dan discusses the term of the Board Chair.
[24:04] – These are the words and phrases that describe the best Board Chair Dan and Harry have ever observed.
[26:39] – Dan responds to a quote about having a pleasant irritant on the board.
[29:38] – Harry segues to a Pittsburgh-based board and ponders how to get regional diversity.
[31:45] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Harry on LinkedIn
Follow Dan on LinkedIn
Our guest today is Dr. Matt Lucas. Dr. Lucas enjoyed a high-impact career in higher education prior to becoming the president and CEO of Our Daily Bread.
Prior to being named as Our Daily Bread’s new CEO, Matt served most recently as Chancellor at Indiana Wesleyan University-National & Global, and as Provost and Executive Vice President at Corban University from 2008 to 2017.
After nearly 20 years of working in higher education, Dr. Matt had been considering a change in his career, whether that looked like becoming an executive pastor or some other form of ministry.
When Our Daily Bread first asked if he would be interested in the position, Matt saw the opportunity as a way of God clarifying his steps, but he still did not think becoming the CEO of such an established organization would be his next opportunity.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Matt as we discuss what led to his transition to Our Daily Bread, his experience of being second in command and the CEO, facing the fork in the metaphorical road, and the challenges he overcame along the way.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:35] – We’re introduced to our guest, Dr. Matt Lucas, and learn what led to the decision to move from the classroom to administration.
[4:19] – What was the thread that kept Matt going as he moved up the administrative ladder?
[6:20] – The transition to Our Daily Bread.
[8:44] – This is what Matt believes was in the mindset of Our Daily Bread’s leadership to give a chance to someone from the outside to lead the ministry.
[11:20] – We hear how Rick’s taking a backseat and deferring to Matt was a testament to Rick’s humility and character.
[12:55] – This is what the CEO / Board Chair relationship looks like for Dr. Matt.
[15:52] – These are the different competencies Matt has used in the office of the President and while being the second in charge.
[17:52] – Dr. Matt reveals what he asks others serving the office of the President.
[19:10] – What does delegation look like in Matt’s life?
[21:14] – Dr. Matt explains how he’s not a detail person, so this is what it looks like delegating detail-oriented tasks to detail-oriented people.
[22:43] – We learn about the lessons Matt has learned about authenticity throughout his career.
[24:26] – This is how transparency applies to authenticity, according to Matt.
[26:55] – Matt discusses the impact of a book he read called Dangerous Calling, by Paul David.
[27:37] – What would Matt do-over in his career?
[29:31] – What does Matt wish someone told him earlier in his career?
[31:09] – We hear the advice Matt would give to someone mid-career who might be facing a fork in the road.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Dangerous Calling, by Paul David Tripp
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Matt on LinkedIn
Today, I’m continuing my conversation with Cheryl Self and Les Kline.
Our topic for discussion today is major gift fundraising. Cheryl and Les have spent their careers in the field of major gifts and both rose through the ranks from Major Gift Officer to Chief Development Officer.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:18] – What are some words and phrases that describe a good Chief Development Officer? Les shares his thoughts.
[4:19] – Cheryl elaborates on Les’ answer on what defines a good Chief Development Officer.
[5:52] – The value of encouragement.
[6:42] – This is the trick to managing geographically diverse teams.
[9:27] – Cheryl explains what goes through her mind when giving someone a second chance.
[11:31] – We hear an example of a time Cheryl wasn’t able to give someone a second chance and opted to cut ties instead.
[14:06] – This is what comes to mind when Cheryl thinks of the most effective team she led.
[17:45] – How does Les spend a long career at two organizations without getting recruited away?
[20:30] – We learn what ultimately pulled Les from World Vision to Wycliffe.
[21:31] – Cheryl reveals how she knew it was time to leave World Vision.
[23:45] – These are some of the long-term relationships that have ended well.
[26:33] – Closing conversations, in Cheryl’s experience, shouldn’t yield any surprises or shocks.
[29:44] – The greatest gratification is to have a donor thank the organization for giving them the opportunity to make a difference.
[30:56] – What counsel would Les and Cheryl give to the next generation of nonprofit leaders?
[33:50] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
People who aren't in fundraising are always asking me, “How does somebody become a fundraiser?” Most people don't go to college to become one, and I don't know many people who had that as a career aspiration during their teen years.
Our topic for discussion today is major gift fundraising.
The amount of the gift that defines a major gift varies from organization to organization. I'm currently working with a client who defines a major gift as any gift that exceeds $12,000 in a calendar year. And just yesterday, I was speaking with a Major Gift Officer at a prominent east coast teaching hospital. Their definition of a major gift is a single gift in excess of $100,000 in one year.
However the major gift is defined, a strong major gifts program is critical to the success and sustainability of any nonprofit organization.
Our guests today are Cheryl Self and Les Kline. Cheryl and Les have spent their careers in the field of major gifts and both rose through the ranks from Major Gift Officer to Chief Development Officer.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [2:09] – We’re introduced to Les Kline and Cheryl Self, and we learn how they ended up in the fundraising profession.
[3:52] – Les reveals his first encounter with fundraising.
[5:17] – This is what Les and Cheryl each remember about Les hiring Cheryl back at World Vision.
[7:14] – Cheryl shares a story about her first meeting with Les in Orlando.
[9:59] – What does Cheryl look for when hiring a development rep?
[12:34] – We hear why many fundraisers fail, according to Les.
[14:18] – Cheryl’s take on failures in fundraising.
[15:22] – What does good training look like between the CDO and the new hire?
[18:45] – These are the critical aspects of relationship building.
[21:31] – An appropriate sense of humor every now and again is important.
[24:38] – Les adds one more thing in regards to the role of a CEO on donor calls.
[25:37] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
If you missed last week's podcast, you're joining us in the middle of a conversation with Brodie Croyle, the President, and CEO of Big Oak Ranch.
This is a part of the series, The Coaches In My Life, where I interview men and women who've excelled in athletics with the hope of discovering what good coaches do to bring out the best in their athletes.
I believe a lot of the aspects of teamwork in athletics are transferable to teamwork in a nonprofit setting. Let's pick up the conversation where we left off last week.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:45] – What would Brodie’s team say is the most difficult thing about working for him?
[3:30] – Brodies discusses how important it is for our values to never waiver.
[4:24] – We learn what Brodie’s team would say is the best part about working for him.
[5:05] – Brodie’s stance on giving someone a second chance.
[8:11] – This has been the toughest part about following his dad’s leadership, in Brodie’s opinion.
[9:55] – What was the biggest transition that Brodie found in learning to report to a board?
[12:00] – We hear what Brodie has sought in his own board.
[13:12] – Brodie shares a story about the extent of his fundraising before he was CEO and the greatest lesson he ever learned about it.
[15:30] – These are the types of risk conversations Brodie’s board has been having.
[18:29] – We learn the mental process Brodie goes through when dealing with risk.
[20:20] – What lessons does Brodie wish someone told him early on in his life about leadership?
[22:10] – Brodie reveals what we would tell those following in his footsteps just starting out in their own careers.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Big Oak Ranch
Listen to Brodie Croyle - Part 1
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
I believe a lot of aspects of teamwork in athletics are transferable to teamwork in the nonprofit sector.
Our guest today is Brodie Croyle, the President and CEO of Big Oak Ranch. Brodie is a native of Gadsden, Alabama, he played quarterback at the University of Alabama, and then went on to play professionally with the Kansas City Chiefs.
Brodie is our second guest in a series that I'm calling The Coaches in My Life where I interview men and women who have excelled in athletics with the hope of discovering what good coaches can do to bring out the best in their athletes.
Thanks again for listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. Many of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:44] – We’re introduced to Brodie Croyle and learn about Big Oak Ranch.
[3:20] – Brodie shares a story about how he told his dad about his vision for the future.
[5:00] – Brodie discusses what he and his team believe a real family means to them.
[8:05] – This is how we can learn about Planning Oaks.
[8:27] – These are the formative experiences that led Brodie to the path he’s on today.
[10:39] – Brodie reveals his “Jesus story.”
[13:19] – The shift in Brodie’s life came when he was reading his playbook and his wife was reading hers.
[15:45] – We learn why Brodie was willing to dedicate his life to giving kids a better life.
[17:49] –Which coaches got the most out of Brodie?
[19:56] – Is there a difference in the way the pros coached Brodie versus the coaches at Alabama?
[20:44] – Thinking back to all of the teams Brodie played on, we hear what teams he believes were the best.
[22:41] – The decision to retire from the NFL.
[25:16] – We’re taken through the thought process of why leadership at Big Oak was right for Brodie.
[28:39] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Big Oak Ranch
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Welcome to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. Our guests today are Dr. Amy Bragg Carey, President of Friends University, and her board chair, Dr. Kevin Hoppock.
In this episode, Dr. Amy and Dr. Kevin discuss the working relationship between a President and a Board Chair, the strategic planning process at Friends University, and Friends University’s refocus of its efforts to a Christian mission.
We also hear Dr. Amy’s and Dr. Kevin’s advice for the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
And much more!
Thanks again for joining us today. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:11] – We’re introduced to our guests for this episode, Dr. Amy Bragg Carey and Dr. Kevin Hoppock.
[2:38] – This is how often the board and the organization meet at Friends University. We also hear how Dr. Amy and Dr. Kevin set the agenda for board meetings.
[4:09] – Dr. Amy discusses the board policies they have in place and whether or not they use a formal manual.
[5:36] – How do Dr. Kevin and Dr. Amy keep their board meetings interesting?
[7:23] – The pros and cons of board composition with heavy influences from alumni or recipients of the organizations’ services.
[9:35] – How do Dr. Amy and Dr. Kevin go about recruiting for their board?
[11:51] – Dr. Kevin and Dr. Amy respond to the quote, “You need someone on the board to be a pleasant irritant.”
[14:00] – This is how term limits apply to the board at Friends University.
[16:13] – We learn about the strategic planning process at Friends.
[17:45] – What kinds of questions does the board ask itself today? Dr. Kevin shares his perspective.
[20:22] – We hear how Friends University refocused its efforts on its Christian mission.
[23:09] – Dr. Kevin would describe the shift in focus as leading in a Christ-like manner rather than legislating Christian morality.
[25:49] – From a board’s standpoint, at some level, the shift to refocus efforts on a Christian mission could have been a risk. Dr. Amy and Dr. Kevin respond to this perspective.
[28:45] – The lessons Dr. Kevin and Dr. Amy wished they learned about board service early in their career.
[31:08] – This is the advice the next generation of CEOs and Board Chairs can use to take their careers to the next level.
[33:33] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Amy on LinkedIn
Welcome to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. Today, I’m continuing my conversation with Danny Herron.
Danny is the President and CEO of Habitat for Humanity of Greater Nashville, where he has served with distinction since 2010.
In this episode, Danny talks about his fundraising experience before joining Habitat, what he believes his team would say about working for him, and what advice Danny would give to the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
And much more!
Be sure to check out Part 1 of my conversation with Danny by visiting our JobFitMatters website. A link to that episode can also be found below.
Thanks again for joining us today. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:17] – Has Danny seen the nonprofit sector change over the last 12 years?
[3:37] –The ability to scale is the greatest challenge facing the nonprofit sector, in Danny’s opinion.
[5:32] – We learn the extent of Danny’s fundraising experience before joining Habitat.
[8:08] – This is how Danny has kept his team at Habitat.
[10:19] – Danny shares what he believes his team would say about working for him.
[11:42] – On the flipside, here’s what Danny thinks his team would say is the most stressful part about working for him.
[13:30] – Strategically speaking, Danny and his team work with a 3-5 year plan.
[16:42] – We hear Danny talk about what he does to prepare his staff for the next president.
[18:42] – Danny reveals the one thing he wishes he learned early on in his career.
[20:16] – Would Danny take the opportunity to do a do-over during any time in his career? Here’s what he has to say about it.
[21:56] – What advice would Danny give to the next generation who wants to work in the nonprofit sector?
[23:40] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
JobfitMatters – Podcast
Danny Herron Episode – Part 1
Habitat Nashville
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Danny on LinkedIn
Welcome to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. Our guest today is Danny Herron.
Danny is the President and CEO of Habitat for Humanity of Greater Nashville, where he has served with distinction since 2010.
When you talk with Danny, the conversation could go in a lot of directions. We could talk about his early years coming out of the University of Alabama with a degree in Civil Engineering. We could explore his career in banking where he served as the President and CEO of Cumberland Bank and then Regional President of Green Bank. We could even talk about his 2020 selection by the Nashville Business Journal as one of Nashville's most admired CEOs.
And we may touch on some of those areas today, but our primary focus will be on what he has learned about nonprofit leadership over the past 12 years.
Thanks again for joining us today. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [2:07] – We’re introduced to our guest, Danny Herron.
[4:05] – Danny shares some of the experiences that he had over his storied career that have shaped who he is today.
[6:57] – We learn about Danny’s mentors.
[9:15] – Danny reveals the lessons he learned from his father and how striving for win/win relationships was how it had to be.
[10:55] – These are some of the risks Danny has taken over his career.
[13:02] – Do nonprofit boards talk enough about risk? Danny gives us his insight.
[15:34] – The pitfalls of a board member “falling in love with the CEO.”
[17:15] – Danny believes it’s ok for a board member to challenge the CEO. Here’s why.
[18:45] – Danny compares and contrasts for-profit and nonprofit boards.
[21:11] – We hear Danny discuss his thoughts on for-profit boards in more detail.
[23:29] – What kind of self-evaluation process does Danny’s board do?
[24:58] – These are the types of questions Danny’s board asks itself today.
[27:29] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
Habitat Nashville
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Danny on LinkedIn
Welcome to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. Our guest today is Joshua Harber.
My records show that in October of 2012, I was working with Haggai International on their Chief Development Officer search and someone had given me Joshua’s name as a potential candidate. I reached out to him, and at the time, I believe he was working with Wycliffe.
Ultimately, Joshua’s path would lead him to a very different place.
In this episode, we’ll learn what it’s like moving overseas to help local communities build their own fundraising space, the relationship between missions trips and western influence, and the advice Joshua would give to those wanting to follow in his footsteps.
Thanks again for joining us today. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [2:22] – We’re introduced to today’s guest, Joshua Harber, and we learn about Joshua’s first fundraising job.
[4:50] – Joshua was initially skeptical about becoming a fundraiser.
[5:52] – We learn about Joshua’s mentors early in his career.
[8:14] – Joshua chats about his time at Wycliffe and his experience with them today.
[10:39] – What was Les Klein like as a boss and mentor to Joshua?
[12:55] – Joshua reveals what led him and his wife to uproot their family and move to Papua New Guinea.
[15:45] – From a professional perspective, Joshua talks about the moonlighting he had been doing in his career while at Wycliffe and how that helped influence the decision to move overseas.
[18:22] – More and more opportunities in other countries kept coming up. This is how Joshua and his wife responded to the calling.
[21:07] – These are some of the lessons Joshua has learned being overseas.
[24:04] – Joshua discusses the third wave of missions.
[27:06] – Joshua recaps the two main lessons he’s learned.
[29:01] – What’s next for Joshua and his family after having been overseas for almost seven years?
[31:44] – This is the counsel Joshua would give to someone inspired by the work his family has been doing.
[33:30] – Joshua speaks directly to the listeners of this podcast who might have the itch to go overseas to work in the fundraising space.
[37:14] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
Book – The Spirituality of Fundraising, by Henri Nouwen
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
joshua.harber@gmail.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Joshua on LinkedIn
Joshua Harber WhatsApp # (317) 698-3996
Welcome to this episode of the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. Today, we're continuing the conversation with Elisa Morgan that we began last week.
Elisa Morgan is an author, podcaster, and president emeritus of MOPS International.
In this episode, we’ll learn what goes through Elisa’s mind when she’s recruiting new board members, her thoughts on failure, what the biggest risk in her career has been, and much more!
Thanks again for joining us today. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:43] – This is what’s going through Elisa’s mind when recruiting new board members.
[3:44] – These are the types of backgrounds and perspectives Elisa looks for when building a more diverse board.
[6:12] – Elisa responds to the quote, “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant, someone who will force people to think a little differently. That’s what a good board does.”
[8:06] – What does Elisa think about term limits for board members?
[9:35] – Elisa explains how she constructively has the right tenure for a board chair and a CEO to work together.
[12:11] – We hear Elisa’s experience in the board participating in strategic planning and how she believes it should go.
[13:47] – This is how soon a CEO should start thinking about succession planning, according to Elisa.
[16:41] – Elisa shares her thoughts on CEOs that have identified and groomed their successors having likely failed in that aspect of leadership.
[18:45] – How effective is the nonprofit sector in acknowledging change?
[20:44] – Elisa reveals what she wishes she was told early in her career.
[22:22] – Being $300,000 in the negative caused Elisa to freak out, but it taught her a valuable lesson.
[23:39] – The biggest risk Elisa took in her career.
[26:40] – We learn what counsel Elisa is giving the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
[28:22] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
MOPS International – Website
Titles by Elisa Morgan on Amazon
RightNow MEDIA – Elisa Morgan
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Connect with Elisa on Instagram
Learn More About Elisa
My first contact with today’s guest was in 2002. I have a record in my database of sending her an email announcement for the CEO search that I was conducting for the Bible League.
Back in those days—as I still do today—I contact leaders in the nonprofit sector with the hopes that they will lead me to people in their networks that I should consider as candidates.
Welcome to this episode of the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. Our guest today is Elisa Morgan: author, podcaster, and president emeritus of MOPS International.
In this episode, we’ll ask Elisa what called her to MOPS International, what some of her most trying experiences have been, and what factors she believes have helped her succeed.
Thanks again for joining us today. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:50] – An introduction to our guest, Elisa Morgan.
[3:11] – What did Elisa see in a checkout line that put her on her career path.
[4:14] – Elisa discusses one of her most trying experiences and also tells us her book, The Beauty Of Broken.
[6:35] – This is how Elisa came to MOPS.
[8:51] – Elisa recounts her first board meeting.
[10:55] – This is what Elisa means when she says, “Money plus management equals leadership, and all are equally important.”
[13:02] – We hear what Elisa remembers about her first team.
[15:57] – What is a factor that Elisa believes helped her succeed?
[17:45] – Elisa reveals how MOPS in her time would have done in today’s culture.
[20:49] – Elisa reveals whether she would give someone a second chance.
[23:18] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
MOPS International – Website
Book – The Beauty Of Broken, by Elisa Morgan
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Connect with Elisa on Instagram
Welcome to this episode of the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast. I'm grateful for all the great and informative guests that have given us their time.
From time to time, I want to have a “best of” episode—a time when we can go back and review what have been some of the highlights from previous episodes.
In this episode, we’ll highlight some of our favorite moments with Holly Moore, Bob Lonac, Carl Zylstra, Emily Sarmiento, Jim Loscheider, Jeff Jowdy, and Norm Hall. You can find links to their full episodes below.
Thanks again for joining us today. If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:51] – Holly Moore reveals what she believes is the most effective thing she’s done to mentor those under her.
[4:50] – What Bob Lonac learned from his greatest failure.
[8:11] – Carl Zylstra addresses whether or not he has a classical orientation when bringing on new board members.
[10:34] – This is the technical approach Carl believes is ideal for all boards: having a good board manual.
[12:10] – Emily Sarmiento shares her observations about the differences between the corner office and the office she had been in before.
[15:07] – Jim Loscheider responds to the metaphor “the chairman and the CEO must learn to dance together. And neither can stray very far from each other's gaze or proceed independently.”
[17:18] – Jeff Jowdy discusses what he learned from Clark Baker.
[20:01] – Norm Hall explains how a person from a student development track becomes a fundraiser.
[23:53] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
Full Episodes Holly Moore – The Heart of a Teacher: How Holly Moore Is Guiding the Next Generation of Nonprofit Leaders
Bob Lonac – Is There Life After Young Life?: How Young Life Equipped Bob Lonac To Be A CEO
Carl Zylstra – Leading a Not-for-Profit Board – my conversation with Carl Zylstra
Emily Sarmiento: Lessons Learned Along the Way to the Corner Office
Talking Stewardship and Generosity with Jim Loscheider
Jeff Jowdy: The Art & Science of Fundraising
Norm Hall: His Journey To Becoming The President Of Simpson University
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Today's episode is a continuation of the conversation that we began last week with Dr. Nathan Hatch, President Emeritus of Wake Forest University. One of the highlights of last week's conversation was Nathan’s insight into the hiring process. He took us into what has been successful for him in hiring great leaders and team members.
Be sure to listen to Part 1 of my conversation with Nathan in case you missed it.
Thanks again for joining us today on the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast.
If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
Let's pick up where we left off last week.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [1:48] – Tommy continues the conversation with Dr. Nathan Hatch and he discusses how a new president can discover the soul of an institution.
[5:22] – The biggest risk Nathan took at Wake Forest.
[6:33] – Nathan reviews the office of the president, the office of the provost, and the different competencies he used in fulfilling both roles.
[9:20] – We hear the point in Dr. Nathan’s career when he was introduced to the responsibilities of fundraising.
[12:17] – The Wake Forest Fellows Program, as described by Dr. Nathan.
[14:53] – This is what goes into Nathan’s decision process when determining whether or not to give someone a second chance.
[18:02] – Nathan explains the work/life balance of being president of Wake Forest University.
[19:36] – This is when a president should start thinking about succession planning, according to Nathan.
[21:00] – Would Nathan do a do-over at any part in his career?
[22:58] – Nathan shares his advice for those aspiring to be a president in higher education.
[25:19] – Tommy wraps up his conversation with Dr. Nathan Hatch and recounts his history with him.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
Book – The Democratization of American Christianity
Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership Podcast – Dr. Nathan Hatch, Part 1
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Our guest today is Dr. Nathan Hatch, President Emeritus of Wake Forest University.
When one interviews Dr. Hatch, we could go in a number of directions. We could discuss his background as a historian and his seminal book, The Democratization of American Christianity. We could discuss his pension for innovation as evidenced by his understanding of the significance to put the school of professional studies in Charlotte because of the big market demand there.
On a lighter note, we could even discuss how a couple of student leaders conned him and the provost at that time to participate in a rap-for-charity event.
But we'll let these discussions wait because today I want to talk broadly with Dr. Hatch about his overall leadership in higher ed administration and some of the similarities and differences between the office of provost and office of president—both of which he has served honorably and effectively.
Thanks again for joining us today on the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast.
If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Nathan Hatch!
Time Stamps [2:32] – An introduction to our guest, Dr. Nathan Hatch.
[3:40] – We hear about a couple of Nathan’s formative experiences.
[6:04] – Nathan discusses the time he wrote his book, The Democratization of American Christianity.
[7:43] – Did Nathan know if his book was “going to be a hit”?
[10:45] – This is the point in Nathan’s career when he realized he had to trust those under his leadership.
[12:51] – Nathan shares the qualities he looks for when hiring a cabinet person.
[15:23] – Nathan believes he can learn more about a person over dinner than over a table in an office. Here’s why.
[17:21] – Did Nathan have any trouble convincing his faculty that the former CEO of PepsiCo could move into academic leadership?
[18:59] – These are some of the words and phrases Nathan would use describing the best team he ever led.
[21:09] – We hear what Nathan believes his cabinet members would say are the toughest things about working for him.
[22:34] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
Book – The Democratization of American Christianity
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
When I began to compile a list of guests who could speak with experience and authority on nonprofit board leadership, there are few who are near the top of that list. You’ll meet one of them today.
Our guest is Dr. Rebekah Basinger.
I first met Dr. Basinger over 20 years ago when I was asked to conduct a CEO search for an organization on whose board she served. She was a member of the search committee and I have great memories of the strong leadership that she exhibited during that search. I have followed her career since then.
Thank you for joining us today on the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast.
If you're listening to an app that lets you leave a review, please do so. A lot of our listeners come to us on the recommendation of a friend or a colleague. If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share the show with others. This is an episode that every prospective nonprofit board member should listen to.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Rebekah Basinger.
Time Stamps [1:40] – We’re introduced to Dr. Rebekah Basinger and learn more about her early background.
[3:07] – Rebekah loved working with a small team as the Director of Public Relations.
[5:59] – What it was like working with the Lilly Endowment at an early age.
[8:15] – Rebekah shares her first board experience.
[10:25] – Rebekah explains what it takes to be a good board chair and keep people from wanting to leave the room.
[11:55] – What it takes to have a healthy relationship between the board chair and the president, according to Rebekah.
[14:08] – Rebekah addresses when a board chair should serve and when they should leave.
[17:02] – From an organizational perspective, Rebekah sees better board documents, bylaws, and policy manuals than she did 20 years ago.
[19:05] – We hear how nonprofit boards fill the gap during an organizational crisis and whether Rebekah has seen this in her experience.
[20:55] – The worst habit for a board to break, in Rebekah’s opinion.
[23:19] – These are the mistakes boards typically make when selecting the next president or CEO.
[25:45] – Rebekah believes too many boards don’t know where the organization is going.
[27:55] – Here’s the advice Rebekah would give someone who thinks they might want to be on a board.
[30:40] – This is why Rebekah is in awe of those that serve on local boards.
[31:22] – We learn what new board members coming into the board world should be reading.
[33:08] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
BoardSource – Website
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Rebekah on LinkedIn
Our guest today is Emily Sarmiento, the President and CEO of Tearfund USA.
My experience on the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas podcast is that it's rare for a guest to be as candid with us about some of the realities of being a young leader as Emily has been on this episode.
She recounts her struggles with deciding if she could be a mother and a leader, her recognition of testing the boundaries of burnout, and her difficulty with seeing herself beyond her professional capacity.
These are things that all leaders struggle with whether we like to talk about them or not.
I hope that each episode of this podcast is helpful to people in our listening audience. But if you're mentoring a younger leader or know some younger nonprofit leaders in your network, I believe this particular conversation is one they will want to hear.
Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know.
And don’t forget to leave us a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps us!
Enjoy!
Time Stamps [0:53] – An introduction to today’s guest, Emily Sermiento.
[3:16] – Emily reveals the formative experiences from her early life that led to her becoming who she is today.
[4:45] – Emily’s first job out of undergraduate school.
[7:51] – We look back over Emily’s career path and learn whether it’s been fairly deliberate as she moved from responsibility to responsibility.
[9:05] – The difference between the corner office and the previous office at Compassion, according to Emily.
[11:48] – This is how Emily transitioned into the fundraising aspects of the corner office.
[12:42] – Moving from one of the largest NGOs in the US to something much smaller was an adjustment for Emily. Here’s why.
[15:36] – What Emily looks for in her executive team.
[16:44] – The interview process that Emily uses.
[18:37] – Emily explains her stance on giving someone who’s committed an egregious act a second chance.
[20:27] – We hear Emily’s thoughts around the most dangerous behaviors that can derail a leader’s career.
[21:49] – Emily shares what themes she’s been challenged with in her life and how she’s overcome them.
[23:29] – What Emily’s colleagues would say is the toughest part working for her, according to Emily.
[24:40] – This is what Emily wished she learned or heard earlier in her career.
[27:03] – The one piece of advice Emily would tell a younger version of herself or someone following in her footsteps.
Resources JobfitMatters – Website
Tearfund USA –Website
Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Tearfund USA on LinkedIn
Tornadoes, hurricanes, wildfires, radiation, COVID-19 and the realities of economic shutdown. These natural disaster examples are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to areas of emergency preparedness that the senior leaders in any nonprofit organization may have to deal with.
From time to time, Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership With Tommy Thomas will talk with nonprofit leaders who have had to respond to these types of emergencies. Today's episode takes you into a leader's real-life experience and the critical necessity of emergency preparedness
Our guest today is Dr. Norm Hall, the President of Simpson University. In this episode, I want to talk with Dr. Hall about how he was able to turn lemons into lemonade less than 60 days after he had arrived at Redding to be the President at Simpson University when the Carr Fire hit the area.
This fire had burned over a hundred thousand acres, destroyed more than 1,100 structures, and forced more than 39,000 people from their homes. The good news was the campus was not an imminent danger, so they were able to turn the Simpson University Campus into an evacuation and rest center for first responders.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Norm as he discusses his team’s response to the natural disaster that crept up on their doorstep.
Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know.
And don’t forget to leave us a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps us!
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:21] – An introduction to today’s guest, Dr. Norm Hall
[2:29] – In less than 60 days on campus, Dr. Norm faced a situation that wasn’t covered in president school.
[3:26] – This is when Dr. Norm realized his community was in crisis and what he did about it.
[4:44] – The community was used to fires, but they weren’t familiar with fires getting into houses. Here’s how Dr. Norm and Simpson University responded.
[5:26] – How close did the fire get to campus?
[6:01] – Dr. Norm explains how he organized his leadership team to get the word out.
[7:41] – The Red Cross was able to set up a space in the gymnasium and continue providing necessary assistance in the relief effort.
[8:33] – Guy Fieri was able to come in to add additional support.
[9:24] – Dr. Norm reveals the impact this natural disaster and his university’s response had on his community.
[10:57] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Norm Hall: His Journey To Becoming The President Of Simpson University
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Dr. Norm on LinkedIn
Today’s episode is the first of several conversations I’ll be having with the president of a nonprofit and one of their key executives.
Over the years, I’ve been privileged to work with more than 35 colleges, universities, and seminaries in the search for their next president. Several of the presidents have asked me to help them recruit men and women to lead in the areas of advancement, academic affairs, student life, and enrollment management.
A few months ago, I was discussing our Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership podcast with a friend and she suggested that interviewing the president and a key senior executive of the leadership team would be a great teaching tool for educators aspiring to senior leadership.
So today, I want to go behind the scenes and get a look at the working relationship between a University President and the Vice President for Student Life.
Our guests today are Dr. Sherilyn Emberton, President at Huntington University, and Dr. Ron Coffee, the Vice President for Student Life at Huntington.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Emberton and Dr. Coffee as they discuss their philosophy on managing senior leadership teams.
Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members and aspiring educators looking to advance into senior leadership you know.
And don’t forget to leave us a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps us!
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[2:22] – Tommy introduces us to our guests, Dr. Sherilyn Emberton and Dr. Ron Coffey.
[3:33] – We learn about Huntington University.
[5:30] – Sherilyn describes what awaited her and what she inherited when she came to the university.
[7:03] – Ron reveals why the cabinet was curious during the first few months of Sherilyn’s presidency.
[8:04] – The philosophy of staff leadership, according to Sherilyn.
[10:10] – Sherilyn tells us about a time when she was frustrated and what led her to change how she interacted with Student Life.
[12:40] – COVID-19 tested the crisis management of Huntington University. Here’s how.
[14:29] – Sherilyn explains why some of Huntington University’s tragedies were more personnel-driven.
[16:18] – Ron discusses how his role as Vice President of Student Life changed since working with Sherilyn.
[17:51] – Sherilyn tells us she had to rethink divisional oversight during COVID-19.
[19:42] – We learn how Sherilyn manages leadership teams.
[21:53] – Meeting with senior leadership was new and welcomed for Ron and the rest of the leadership staff.
[23:32] – Sherilyn takes a moment to identify her own blindspots.
[25:49] – We hear from Ron about what he believes his own blindspots are.
[27:49] – Coming from the private sector into higher education impacted Sherilyn’s management style.
[29:55] – An opportunity became available for being the Director of Teacher Education and Sherilyn explains how she turned 33 students to 1,900 while in that role.
[31:20] – The pros and cons of coming up through the student development track and business and provost track.
[33:15] – Sherliyn believes she would have been hindered if she had not served under a president who came from Student Life.
[35:14] – What does Sherilyn wish she learned about leadership earlier in her career?
[36:50] – Ron shares his insights on the lessons he wishes he learned earlier in his career.
[39:14] – There is no clear path to the senior level, according to Sherilyn.
Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Sherilyn on LinkedIn
Follow Ron on LinkedIn
Our guest tonight is Dr. Norm Hall, President of Simpson University.
Over the course of my career, I’ve had the privilege of leading president searches for 35 colleges, universities, and seminaries. Simpson University was one of these.
When the board retained us, Simpson was going through some difficult times. We knew it was going to take someone who was up for a huge challenge to be successful at Simpson.
Amazingly, the search drew a very strong pool of candidates. There were three sitting presidents along with a couple of deans, and then there was Dr. Norm Hall, who had been Dean of Students earlier in his career, but at this time, was serving as the Vice President of International and Alumni Affairs at Greenville University.
I was present for all of the interviews and I saw the Search Committee’s response to each candidate. After Dr. Hall was interviewed, it was obvious that he was going to be a finalist—and a very strong finalist at that.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dr. Hall as he discusses his journey to becoming the President of Simpson University.
Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members and collegiate leadership members you know. And don’t forget to leave us a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps us!
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[2:52] – We’re introduced to Dr. Norm Hall, President of Simpson University, and we learn how he first got into higher education.
[5:41] – Dr. Norm eventually ended up at Azusa Pacific University.
[6:52] – Was Dr. Norm surprised to receive a call from Tommy asking to be a president?
[9:10] – Dr. Norm reveals what he was feeling when he wasn’t originally offered a position before Tommy called.
[10:50] – Some of the highlights of student development that distinctively prepared Dr. Norm for the presidency, according to Dr. Norm.
[12:43] – What drew Dr. Norm to the challenges Simpson University was facing?
[14:13] –This is how Dr. Norm put together the team to address the specific challenges they faced at Simpson.
[16:09] – We learn about the “rubric” Dr. Norm used with his team to accomplish goals and celebrate victories.
[18:41] – Dr. Norm believes the accreditation agency is looking for self-awareness.
[20:21] – How did Dr. Norm become a fundraiser?
[23:30] – Dr. Norm shares with us the biggest surprise being a university president.
[25:22] – This is what goes through Dr. Norm’s mind when giving someone a second chance.
[28:19] – The biggest difference between reporting to the president versus reporting to the board of trustees, in Dr. Norm’s opinion.
[31:25] – The advice that Dr. Norm wishes someone told him earlier in his career.
[33:33] – Dr. Norm taught Critical Thinking in a maximum-security prison and he reveals if he was nervous while teaching there.
[34:54] – Dr. Norm’s parting words to aspiring leaders.
[37:51] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Dr. Norm on LinkedIn
Today, we’re continuing the conversation from last week’s episode with Jeff Jowdy about fundraising.
When you talk with Jeff Jowdy, the conversation could go in a lot of different directions. And if you Google Jeff Jowdy, you’ll see a lot of skills, achievements, and experience, and you’ll see he currently leads Lighthouse Counsel. In my opinion, Lighthouse Counsel is one of the premier fundraising consultancies in the Southeast.
In this episode, we’ll be discussing nonprofit board leadership. We’ll pick up the conversation at the point where I was asking Jeff who had taught him the most about leadership.
I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jeff. And if you’re just joining us, be sure to listen to the first episode with Jeff.
Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know. And don’t forget to leave us a review wherever you’re listening. It really helps us!
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:44] – Who taught Jeff the most about leadership and boardsmanship?
[4:32] – What Jeff learned from Nelson Andrews.
[6:31] – This is what stands out to Jeff with how board chairs run board meetings.
[8:45] – Jeff explains what he wants to see on a board.
[9:25] – The pros and cons of working through an executive committee, according to Jeff.
[11:25] – Jeff talks about boards using executive sessions and what he likes and doesn’t like about them.
[13:15] – Jeff’s perspective on board composition and whether it should have protagonists and antagonists.
[14:10] – Here are the best practices Jeff has seen with onboarding new members to the board.
[17:05] – We learn Jeff’s thoughts about what new board members need to know before getting started.
[18:15] – The critical questions the board should be asking itself today, in Jeff’s perspective.
[20:10] – Jeff reveals the best thing a board can do to prepare a new CEO for leadership.
[22:27] – We hear an update about Jeff’s book, the largest-ever U.S. study on nonprofit board chairs.
[24:10] – When can we expect to see Jeff’s book published?
[25:04] – Tommy recaps the conversation with Jeff Jowdy and shares his takeaways.
Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Lighthouse Counsel – Website
Mastering the In-Person Fundraising Ask
Episode 23 - Jeff Jowdy - The Art & Science of Fundraising - Part 1
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Jeff on LinkedIn
When you talk with Jeff Jowdy, the conversation could go in a lot of different directions.
We could talk about the University of Georgia Bulldogs Football Team and the amazing season they’re having this year.
Staying with the journalism theme, we could talk about Jeff’s time as a journalism student at Georgia and what that has meant for his career.
We could also talk about Jeff’s commitment to his community and his active involvement in the Rotary Club of Nashville and Leadership Middle Tennessee.
But we’ll save those topics for another day because today I want to talk with Jeff about nonprofit fundraising and nonprofit board service.
If you Google Jeff Jowdy, you’ll see a lot of skills, achievements, and experience, and you’ll see he currently leads Lighthouse Counsel. In my opinion, Lighthouse Counsel is one of the premier fundraising consultancies in the Southeast.
I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jeff. Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[2:14] – An introduction to today’s guest, Jeff Jowdy.
[3:45] – What Jeff remembers about one of the most successful fundraising campaigns for the YMCA of Middle Tennessee.
[6:36] – Jeff explains how his former CEO was different from other CEOs.
[8:51] – Jeff was proud of his team at the YMCA. Here’s why.
[10:20] – Managing the team was never enjoyable to Jeff, he would rather be out front building relationships.
[10:52] – We hear some insights from Jeff about how to make a great hiring decision.
[12:42] – Tommy shares his thoughts about making great hiring decisions.
[14:15] – This is why there is a high turnover rate for fundraising professionals, according to Jeff.
[17:09] – Jeff realized in order to be successful, he didn’t have time to supervise day-to-day.
[19:23] – What happened when a lady on the board with a Doctorate in Fundraising and 40 years of experience in direct appeal gave Jeff advice?
[20:30] – The office of the president can sometimes put a lot of unrealistic expectations on the office of development. Jeff shares his thoughts on why.
[22:52] – Jeff’s beliefs on legacy giving.
[24:26] – What has Jeff observed about organizations that have thrived during the pandemic?
[26:31] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Lighthouse Counsel – Website
Mastering the In-Person Fundraising Ask
Episode 2 - Jim Loscheider - Talking Stewardship and Generosity
Connect
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
Follow Tommy on LinkedIn
Follow Jeff on LinkedIn
My guests today are Burt Rosen, the CEO for Knox Area Rescue Ministries (KARM) in Knoxville, Tennessee, and his Board Chair, Dan Hurst.
Today’s episode is a continuation of several conversations that I plan to have with the CEO of a nonprofit and his or her Board Chair where we discuss how to build and maintain an effective CEO - Board Chair relationship.
We kicked off this series with a two-episode conversation with Alec Hill, former President of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and Rudy Hernandez, the Board Chair for Alec’s last two years being president. And like Alec and Rudy, Burt and Dan shared with us their perspective for what it takes to have a successful and effective working relationship between a CEO and a Board Chair.
I really appreciate that these two men took time out just before Thanksgiving to share their wealth of knowledge and experience with me.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Dan and Burt. Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:50] – Burt Rosen and Dan Hurst share their plans for Thanksgiving 2021 with KARM.
[2:24] – Burt gives us a brief summary of what KARM was like in 2003 and compares it to what’s happening today.
[5:07] – Dan reveals how he got involved with KARM.
[6:38] – The process for selecting the Board Chair, according to Dan.
[8:14] – We hear a story about a trip Burt took to a workshop in Dallas and the message he heard that still impacts him today.
[9:17] – The size of the board at KARM today.
[11:40] – Does the board at KARM use the Carver Model for board governance?
[14:21] – How Dan and Burt use executive sessions in their board model.
[15:30] – Burt talks about the process of onboarding new members to the board.
[17:17] – Dan discusses the matrix they use to determine the skills, talent, and backgrounds they need for board recruitment.
[18:56] – Truly knowing who the candidates for the board are is crucial to the board’s success.
[20:50] – KARM’s board policy manual.
[21:40] – What is Burt’s position on discussing bad news with the board?
[23:07] – The history of annual reviews at KARM, in Dan’s perspective.
[24:25] – What did Burt put in his self-evaluation?
[26:25] – Burt gives his advice for a first-time CEO working with a board and Board Chair.
[28:20] – Dan gives his advice for a first-time Board Chair working with a CEO.
[31:35] – Tommy wraps up the conversation.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
KARM – Website
tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Follow Tommy on Twitter
I had the pleasure of attending a virtual podcast cohort last spring where we had current podcasters and future podcasters come together for a weekly Zoom meeting. Towards the end of the cohort, the instructor said, “There is the good news and the bad news about your first few episodes. The bad news is that you probably won't be very good. You're still honing your skills. The good news is very few people will be listening, so it won't matter that much anyway.”
That is wisdom that has really stuck with me as I reflect over the last twenty episodes of the podcast, and I really want to thank all of my guests who have joined me so far for taking time out of their schedules to be on the podcast. I am also grateful for you – my listeners – for tuning in each week. I spend today's episode reflecting on that and also reminding you all of what the goal and the objective of this podcast has always been, and I also project to the near future, sharing some of what you can expect from the podcast going into 2022.
Be sure to keep tuning in in 2022 because there is so much more good stuff to come! Join me next week for a new conversation with another nonprofit leader! Don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, and I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Time Stamps
[1:17] – Tommy opens by thanking all of his guests who have been on the podcast so far.
[1:32] – Tommy reflects on the origin of the podcast back in 2017.
[2:43] – We learn about a virtual podcast cohort that Tommy attended last spring.
[3:48] – Tommy explains the main objective of the podcast.
[4:33] – Tommy looks forward to what's to come in 2022.
[5:52] – We are told how we can contact Tommy.
[6:15] – Tommy hopes that his podcasting skills have improved since the podcast started.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Email Tommy: tthomas@jobfitmatters.com
Tommy’s Twitter Profile
For our regular listeners, today’s episode is a change of pace. We’re going to take a week off from learning about nonprofit leadership. Those of you who know me well know that I’m a big fan of all kinds of music. Today, we’re going to explore the origins of what has become one of my favorite Christmas songs.
This year is the 30th anniversary of the release of the Christmas song, Mary, Did You Know?
The lyrics were written by Mark Lowry and the music by Buddy Greene. This song has become one of my favorite Christmas songs and from all accounts the favorite of many others.
If you Google the phrase “How many times has Mary, Did You Know been covered?” you will get an endless stream of YouTube videos. One writer has said this song has been covered hundreds of times.
Our guest today is Buddy Greene. I wanted to have Buddy join us for two reasons today. First, I want my listeners to become more familiar with the origins and the history of Mary, Did You Know? And, I want to expose our listeners to one of the finest harmonica players you will hear anywhere.
Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the music lovers you know.
Merry Christmas!
Time Stamps
[1:58] – Tommy introduces the guest of today’s episode, Buddy Greene, writer of the music to Mary, Did You Know?
[2:31] – Buddy’s origin story in Macon, Georgia.
[4:44] – How does a young musician from Macon, Georgia, eventually get to Carnegie Hall?
[6:47] – Lessons Buddy learned from his experience with Jerry Reed.
[9:29] – What Buddy remembers from his first time on the Ryman Stage in Nashville.
[10:40] – Tommy shares his “Buddy Greene story.”
[12:10] – Buddy reveals what has humbled him in his music career.
[13:49] – Buddy tells us about a teenager that came to one of his concerts.
[16:00] – Tommy chats about some of Buddy’s popular songs.
[16:45] – How did Buddy Greene get to Carnegie Hall?
[19:15] – Buddy surprises us with the revelation that a featured performance on harmonica at Carnegie Hall was completely unrehearsed.
[21:40] – Much of Buddy’s classical performances on harmonica started as a piece of comedy that he would perform at bars and taverns in Georgia.
[23:15] – The William Tell Overture earned Buddy a standing ovation at Carnegie Hall. Here’s how Buddy’s harmonica-playing friends responded.
[25:08] – How did Mark Lowry come to write Mary, Did You Know?
[27:25] – Buddy’s reaction to reading the lyrics to Mary, Did You Know? for the first time.
[29:30] – When writing songs, Buddy usually writes with a guitar.
[31:02] – Did Buddy believe Mary, Did You Know? would be a big hit when he wrote it?
[33:06] – Some of Buddy’s favorite covers of his song.
[35:40] – Tommy reminisces on his first time hearing the song.
[36:38] – How can listeners find Buddy’s music?
[37:42] – Buddy has retired “for the most part.” Here’s what that means, according to Buddy.
[39:20] – Buddy performs the opening bars of Mary, Did You Know?
[39:55] – We listen to a studio rendition of Mary, Did You Know?
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Buddy Greene – Website
Follow Buddy Greene on Facebook
Listen to Buddy Greene on Spotify
Listen to Buddy Greene on Apple Music
Some of Buddy Greene’s Key Performances
Orange Blossom Special – Buddy Greene
Nothing But the Blood – Buddy Greene
Classical Harmonic Medley – Buddy Greene at Carnegie Hall
How Can I Keep From Singing - Buddy Greene
Silent Night, Holy Night - Buddy Greene
Some of Buddy Greene’s Favorite Covers
Mary, Did You Know? – Michael English (Adult Contemporary)
Mary, Did You Know? – Pentatonix (A Capella)
Mary, Did You Know? – The Isaacs (Folk)
Mary, Did You Know? – CeeLo Green (R&B)
Mary, Did You Know? – Kathy Mattea (Country)
Last week, we started a series of podcasts focusing on the relationship between the CEO of a nonprofit and his/her board chair.
Today’s episode is a continuation of the conversation that I had last week with Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez. We go in-depth on the topic of the board policy manual, how InterVarsity managed through tough times, and the value of indifference.
Alec served as the President of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship for over fifteen years and Rudy was his Board Chair during the last two years of his administration.
I appreciate the candor of these two men. There will be times when there is disagreement between the CEO, the board, and the board chair. I hope this conversation sheds some light on how to handle and work through these disagreements.
Be sure to listen to Part 1 of this conversation with Alec and Rudy, and I hope you enjoy Part 2. Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:14] – We continue our conversation with Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez, President and Board Chair of InterVarsity respectively.
[1:50] – Did Rudy and Alec work together to plan board meetings?
[4:38] – Rudy and Alec address whether board meetings were all business or if they made time for fellowship.
[6:49] – How did the board policy manual for InterVarsity come to pass?
[7:49] – Rudy’s first impression of the board policy manual.
[9:15] – Alec explains how his cancer diagnosis, although sudden, didn’t affect the preparedness of the board to find an interim president quickly.
[11:55] – Alec’s least favorite policy.
[13:34] – What was learned during the tough times at InterVarsity?
[15:10] – Rudy recalls a board meeting when the issue of faith in leadership came up.
[17:40] – We learn that the students took it upon themselves to continue meeting even though InterVarsity was on probation.
[19:15] – Rudy recaps for us the decision not to comply with the Cal State University System and what came of that decision.
[19:55] – We hear about how the administration and the board handled not being in parallel with each other.
[21:45] – Rudy reviews how indifference can make a successful board and CEO pairing.
[24:04] – Alec provides an illustration of how indifference applies to succession.
[25:57] – Alec gives advice for first-time CEOs regarding working with the board and the board chair.
[27:48] – Rudy gives advice for first-time board chairs.
[30:29] – Tommy concludes the conversation.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
The New York Times and Campus Culture
A few weeks ago, my guest was David Simms, the Founder and CEO of Talanton. You may remember David from the episode What the Harvard Business School DID NOT teach David Simms about Nonprofit Leadership.
In a follow-up conversation, I was telling David about some of my future guests and the topics we would be discussing. It was during that call that David suggested I have a series of episodes where I have a president of a nonprofit and a chairman of the board together discussing their working relationship.
Today is the first of what I hope will be several episodes using this format.
Our guests today are Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez. Alec was the President of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship from 2001 to 2015. Rudy was the Board Chair from July 2013 to June 2015 and he also served as the Vice-Chair for four years prior to that.
I hope you enjoy Part 1 of my conversation with Alec and Rudy. Thanks again for listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas and be sure to share this episode with the nonprofit board members you know.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:37] – Tommy introduces us to our topic and our guests, Alec Hill and Rudy Hernandez.
[2:40] – Tommy shares his first experience getting to know Alec during the hiring process for President of InterVarsity.
[3:41] – Alec shares his side of the story getting to know Tommy.
[5:02] – Alec sets the context for his transition to InterVarsity.
[7:15] – Rudy reveals how he came to be on the board at InterVarsity.
[10:06] – As a former President, Alec talks about what he believes makes a successful relationship between a President and a Chairman of the Board.
[12:18] – Rudy gives his take on successful relationships from the Board’s perspective.
[14:30] – How Alec and Rudy avoided “show and tell.”
[17:07] – Rudy addresses a quote from Jeff De Cagna regarding clear expectations.
[19:20] – Alec discusses building relationships between presidents and board members outside of board calls.
[20:45] – Rudy adds how Alec responded to his annual appraisals.
[23:07] – The first month on the job, according to Alec.
[23:41] – Did the annual report at InterVarsity stay static or did it grow over time?
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Episode 13 - What the Harvard Business School DID NOT teach David Simms about Nonprofit Leadership
“Let’s Work Together” – The Sweet Sounds of a Board-CEO Partnership by Melanie Lockwood Herman and Erin Gloeckner
If you’ve been listening to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas for a while, you’ve probably observed that much of what our guests share is more like a compass than a roadmap. For many of the topics that we discuss, there isn’t a right or a wrong way to address the topic. There are principles that are good to follow. Seldom is there a one-size-fits-all response.
In this episode, you will hear from five of our previous guests sharing their thoughts on what goes into a great hiring decision.
My hope is that you will digest what you hear, contextualize this around your own team and gifts and abilities, and come up with something that works for you.
This episode also serves as a great introduction to our podcast for those you may know who are involved in the hiring process at their respective companies. Be sure to share it with them as I’m confident they will find many of the talking points very insightful.
I hope you enjoy these timeless reflections about hiring great people!
Time Stamps
[2:23] – What Dr. Sandra Gray looks for when hiring for senior leadership.
[4.55] – Bob Lonac reveals what the highlights are in the long road of hiring.
[6:49] – Bob shares a story about using his intuition to hire a Radio Vice President.
[8:37] – The most critical thing about the hiring process, according to Jim Loscheider.
[10:28] – Jim talks about the differences between hiring from within the company and hiring from the outside.
[12:03] – Holly Moore tells us what she believes the primary characteristics are when she’s looking to hire someone.
[14:36] – The worst mistake hiring managers make, in Holly Moore’s experience.
[15:58] – This is the one question Holly would ask if she only had five minutes to interview someone.
[17:55] – Christine Talbot discusses her experience with recruiting.
[20:45] – Tommy recaps some of the major talking points and shares some of his own experience in hiring.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Episode 7 - Dr. Sandra Gray - Trial By Fire
Episode 5 - Christine Talbot - From Kaiser Permanente to World Vision
Episode 3 - Holly Moore - The Heart Of A Teacher
Episode 2 - Jim Loscheider - Talking Stewardship and Generosity
Bob Lonac Consults - Website
We continue our conversation today with Dr. Terry Franson. Terry coached Azusa Pacific University’s Track & Field Team from 1980 to 1995. He coached the Men’s Track & Field Team to 11 outdoor championships in 13 years—the most in NAIA history.
Throughout his career, Terry coached 123 NAIA All Americans, 81 National Championships, and 8 Olympians.
In our episode today, Dr. Terry Franson shares his 20 coaching tips and explains how he tries to live his life by them.
Be sure to listen to the first part of my conversation with Dr. Terry, I Coach the Person, Not the Sport (Part 1).
I hope you’re as amazed by Terry’s wisdom and stories as I was while interviewing him. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, and I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:23] – Tommy reintroduces Dr. Terry Franson and continues the conversation from our last episode.
[2:12] – Dr. Terry shares his tips for coaching.
[4:56] – Dr. Terry explains what he means by “the first no is the beginning of the opportunity.”
[6:16] – How Dr. Terry balanced life while on the big stage.
[8:15] – The philosophy of the word “Team”, according to Dr. Terry.
[9:40] – What ‘facetime’ means to Terry Franson.
[12:08] – Playing offense is given new meaning.
[14:33] – We learn how Terry was inspired by Anne Sullivan.
[16:00] – Dr. Terry reveals that he’s had forty four vocal cord surgeries and how these impacted his life.
[18:02] – How coaching can take a toll on the family, and how Dr. Terry’s wife plays a role in keeping family life balanced.
[20:01] – Does Dr. Terry Franson miss coaching? Here are his final thoughts.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Connect with Dr. Terry Franson on LinkedIn
Anne Sullivan - Biography
Azusa Pacific University
I’ve long held a fascination and admiration for great coaches. They influence the lives of young people, and I believe they have a significant role in modeling them to not only be great athletes but to also be better people and better citizens. For some time, I’ve felt there must be an artform to figuring out how to coach individuals and—to paraphrase a great Army slogan—to be all they can be.
My guest today is Dr. Terry Franson. Terry coached Azusa Pacific University’s Track & Field Team from 1980 to 1995. He coached the Men’s Track & Field Team to 11 outdoor championships in 13 years—the most in NAIA history.
Throughout his career, Terry coached 123 NAIA All Americans, 81 National Championships, and 8 Olympians.
In our conversation today, Dr. Terry Franson shares his philosophy on coaching and leadership and tells some of the most amazing stories about the athletes he’s coached over the years. I’m sure you’ll recognize some of the famous United States Olympians from the 1990s that Terry helped to reach their true potential.
I hope you’re as amazed by Terry’s wisdom and stories as I was while interviewing him. Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, and I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:33] – Tommy introduces us to his guest, Dr. Terry Franson.
[2:11] – Terry gives us a glimpse into his childhood and how he got into athletics.
[4:21] – How did Dr. Terry’s high school coach get the best out of him?
[6:01] – We learn a few takeaways from Dr. Terry’s dissertation about getting the best out of young athletes.
[8:10] – Terry addresses his process when he realizes he’s not the best person to help someone.
[9:23] – Terry explains his stance on whether he coaches the person or the sport.
[10:42] – We hear a story about an Aha! moment Terry had when applying the lessons from his dissertation.
[12:24] – How someone walked from relative obscurity to becoming an Olympian.
[14:17] – Older listeners may remember this story about Dan O’Brien and Dave Johnson who were featured in a $20 million Reebok campaign in the early 90s.
[15:44] – We’re surprised to learn about Dave Johnson, an athlete who had trained for twelve years and discovered he had a fractured bone in his foot five weeks before the Olympic Games in Barcelona.
[18:18] – What happened during the Games in Barcelona?
[19:20] – Dr. Terry tells us about a little boy sitting in the stands watching Dave compete with a broken foot.
[21:21] – Mike Barnett goes from throwing footballs, to throwing javelins, to getting thrown off the team.
[23:38] – Dr. Terry shares how he helped coach Mike and turn his life around.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Connect with Dr. Terry Franson on LinkedIn
Lead From The Heart: Transformational Leadership For The 21st Century, by Mark C. Crowley
Reebok Commercials - Dan and Dave - 1992
Anne Sullivan
Dave Johnson
Innocent Egbunike
Mike Barnett
Azusa Pacific University
Our episode today is a continuation of an earlier conversation that I had with Dr. Sandra Gray. Our regular listeners will remember Dr. Gray from the September 3rd conversation entitled Trial By Fire - The Story of One University President - Leading Through The 2007-2008 Global Financial Crisis. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I encourage you to do so.
In addition to her success as President of Asbury University, Dr. Gray has extensive insight into governing boards. Over her career, she served on two private sector boards and at least three nonprofit boards. She did this while additionally reporting to the board of trustees as Asbury.
In our conversation today, Dr. Gray tells us about her experiences with nonprofit boards, the relationship between board chairs and presidents, and the importance of risk in the role of the president.
I hope that her wisdom continues to be helpful to our listeners! Don’t forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, and I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Join me now as we catch the second half of my conversation with Dr. Sandra Gray.
Time Stamps
[2:18] – Dr. Sandra Gray tells us about her first board experience.
[3:51] – Dr. Gray shares what she learned from the utility board that was transferable.
[5:37] – How the Carver Model applied to the Asbury board, in Dr. Gray’s experience.
[7:18] – Dr. Gray discusses her perspective on term limits and using a matrix to populate boards.
[8:19] – What is the ideal size of a nonprofit board?
[11:01] – We learn about Dr. Sandra Gray’s mentor who she identifies is a real guru of board governance.
[12:17] – Dr. Gray responds to a quote from Peter Drucker.
[14:00] – How often did Dr. Gray communicate with her board chair?
[15:15] – Tommy reads a quote about the relationship between CEOs and Board Chairs.
[16:26] – The role of the designated antagonist on the board, according to Dr. Gray.
[18:31] – Dr. Sandra reveals what she thought about the Enron scandal in 2001.
[20:59] – One of the challenges faith-based organizations face, in Dr. Sandra’s opinion.
[22:22] – Dr. Sandra Gray answers the question “What is the best thing a board can do for a new president?”
[24:21] – How does risk factor into the role of a president?
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Trial By Fire - The Story of One University President - Leading Through The 2007-2008 Global Financial Crisis.
The Policy Governance Model
Our guest today is David Simms, the CEO and Founder of Talanton. When you interview David Simms, you can go in a lot of different directions. We could ask him about his year as a White House Fellow working as a Specialist Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of State. Or we could ask him about work/life balance and how he juggles a very busy schedule with being a husband, a parent of adult children, and a small group leader at his local church.
However, I want to leave those topics for another discussion because today we want to explore the curious intersection of faith, passion for the underserved, career, and economics in David’s life.
In this episode, I ask David what drew him to the nonprofit world, what lessons he’s learned from his decades of experience as a board member, and what lessons he would share with the next generation.
Please be sure to share this podcast with the nonprofit board members and young entrepreneurs you know. The advice David gives for these groups can accelerate their passion and drive to be better nonprofit leaders.
I hope you enjoy this very insightful conversation with David!
Time Stamps
[1:06] – An introduction to our guest, David Simms.
[1:55] – Tommy tells us when he first met David.
[2:43] – David shares the “short story” of what drew him to the nonprofit world.
[3:52] – We learn what David found challenging as CEO of the American Red Cross Washington/Baltimore Blood Services Region.
[5:58] – Teams at the American Red Cross, in David’s experience.
[8:07] – David shares what he believes is his greatest lesson learned from the private sector.
[10:23] – We learn about David’s first board experience.
[12:56] – After 35 years, what keeps David going as a board person?
[14:14] – The words and phrases that come to mind when David thinks about what makes a board a good board.
[16:20] – This is the advice that stung David the hardest.
[18:37] – What is the best thing that a board can do to help get a new CEO started on the right foot?
[20:50] – David identifies the questions his current board asks themselves about the future.
[23:05] – David reflects on one of the questions his board asks themselves, “Who else can they partner with?”
[24:23] – Tommy has David share some lessons we can learn from examples of board responsibility and poor corporate leadership.
[27:03] – David explains his tagline “Creating jobs and bringing hope via faith-driven investing.”
[29:51] – Continuing education has made a huge impact on David’s life and David speaks on the educational options that are available today.
[32:03] – What the Harvard Business School DID NOT teach David about nonprofit leadership.
[33:50] – Advice for young entrepreneurs who have it in their blood to create an impactful startup.
[34:45] – We listen to a story about David’s advice to young entrepreneurs that benefited him.
Links and Resources
Follow David Simms on LinkedIn
JobfitMatters – Website
Talanton – Website
If you haven’t made mistakes—some more costly than others—then you are not human. We’ve all made mistakes and would all like a second chance.
Because I believe second chances are so important, this is one of the questions I frequently ask our guests on our Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas podcast.
I usually frame the question like this: “What would go into your decision about giving an employee who had clearly done something wrong or inappropriate a second chance?”
In this episode, we explore how some of our guests responded to this question and we reflect on the life and leadership lessons we’ve learned from them along the way. After all, these guests have been there and done that, and—as the saying goes—have the t-shirt to prove it.
This episode is a great introductory episode to share with the nonprofit board members you know as it introduces a variety of guests and will hopefully inspire them to further explore these guests in their featured episodes.
We hope you enjoy these timeless reflections about second chances!
Time Stamps
[0:13] – Tommy Thomas shares some quotes on second chances.
[1:58] – We hear how Dr. Sandra Gray confronts second chances.
[4:05] – Dr. Andy Westmoreland reminds us that we’ve all fallen short.
[5:39] – Dr. Westmoreland is inspired to see someone reclaim.
[5:53] – Holly Moore presents a few of the questions she considers before determining whether a second chance is worthy.
[8:23] – Jim Loscheider gives his board members permission to make mistakes.
[9:10] – Jim explains the only mistake he and his board members will not tolerate.
[10:47] – Tommy shares an excerpt from an early interview with Dr. Alan Cureton.
[11:33] – Dr. Alan Cureton shares what happens if he senses someone is not being sincere with their repentance.
[13:10] – Tommy leaves us with some parting words for first-time listeners.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Episode 7 - Dr. Sandra Gray - Trial By Fire
Episode 8 - Dr. Andy Westmoreland
Episode 3 - Holly Moore - The Heart Of A Teacher
Episode 2 - Jim Loscheider - Talking Stewardship and Generosity
Meet Dr. Alan S. Cureton
Our guest today is Dr. Carl Zylstra, the former president of Dordt University. Those of you who’ve been listening to the Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership podcast will recognize Dr. Zylstra from the August 27th Episode Partners, Brothers, and Friends: How Two College Presidents Have Come Together For The Greater Good Of Christian Higher Education.
In that episode, Carl Zylstra and David Dockery share some about their friendship and ultimately the collaboration they’ve had over the years. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I encourage you to do so. It really is an insightful episode that you can learn a lot from and it will add more context to the conversation I have with Carl today.
One of the reasons I’ve asked Carl back to be our guest today is because of the breadth of his experience in working with and serving on nonprofit boards. My observation and experience is that being an effective nonprofit board member is not easy. And yet, the strength of a board can make or break the effectiveness of an organization.
In this episode, I ask Carl to share with us his experiences with nonprofit boards, the best strategies for board composition, common reasons for board turnover, and much more.
Please be sure to share this podcast with the nonprofit board members you know and not to keep us a secret.
I hope you enjoy my conversation with Carl!
Show Notes
[2:15] – An introduction to our guest, Dr. Carl Zylstra.
[3:05] – Carl shares his experiences that led to the presidency of Dordt University.
[4:33] – What does Carl remember about his first board?
[6:09] – We learn what Carl believes is the best thing a board can do when bringing in a new president.
[7:31] – The best strategies for board composition, according to Carl.
[9:45] – Carl clarifies the Four W’s motif and the type of experience needed to fulfill them.
[11:59] – Carl tells us what he believes goes into an ideal onboarding strategy.
[13:00] – How does a good board manual help outline the expectations for a board?
[14:28] – In Carl’s opinion, self study should be done at every meeting.
[16:35] – After establishing credibility for a new president, boards must guard the president against loss of that credibility.
[17:50] – Carl suggests additional ways boards can be improved.
[19:04] – What are some words and phrases that Carl believes describe an outstanding chair for the board?
[20:50] – Common reasons for board turnover, in Carl’s experience.
[22:52] – Having the wrong expectations is a key part of why people leave boards.
[23:27] – Advice on how to reduce board turnover.
[25:25] – Tommy reveals that Carl has an amazing cufflinks collection.
Links and Resources
Meet Dr. Carl Zylstra
Follow Carl Zylstra on LinkedIn
JobfitMatters – Website
Dordt University
Called To Serve: Creating and Nurturing the Effective Volunteer Board by Max DePree
Partners, Brothers, and Friends: How Two College Presidents Have Come Together For The Greater Good Of Christian Higher Education
Max De Pree
If you're new to the podcast, today's episode is a continuation of the conversation we started last week with Dr. John Reynolds on the topic of boardsmanship. John is a foremost authority on nonprofit boards and we're honored to have him as a guest.
If you're a member of a nonprofit board, you will want to pay particular attention to John's comments on recruiting and retaining board members who are in their twenties and thirties.
There's definitely a difference between the way men and women in this age group view how they spend their time and thus what they are willing to commit to compared to how people in their late fifties, sixties, and seventies view this.
As the boardsmanship baton is passed from one generation to the next, the composition of boards and what boardsmanship looks like is going to change. We have to be willing participants in that change.
As a reminder, please be sure to share this podcast with the nonprofit board members you know, particularly if they are new members to board service. They will find these conversations with Dr. John Reynolds very helpful in their journey to becoming an effective nonprofit board member.
Join me now as I pick up where we left off with Dr. John Reynolds last week.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[2:20] – Dr. John Reynolds comments on the importance of the board chair.
[5:11] – The role of the board chair, as described by John.
[7:10] – John explains how a good board chair can lead the board in self-evaluation.
[7:58] – How better boards work peer evaluations into self-assessments.
[9:00] – The value of evaluating the chair.
[10:28] – John’s observations on why boards turnover.
[11:54] – Why some of John’s best board members only served for a couple of years.
[14:13] – John shares a story about interviewing a potential board member who didn’t have time to be on a board but still wanted to help.
[16:23] – John reacts to Dr. Alan Cureton’s “oblique” recruiting tool.
[17:55] – How does John counsel his board members on succession planning?
[20:31] – The two pieces of term outs, according to John.
[22:35] – John’s experience with presidents grooming their successors as part of their succession plans.
[24:43] – Is anybody doing a good job with getting Millennials and Gen X people on boards?
[26:06] – John convinces his (mostly traditional) board members to take the company remote.
[27:10] – John talks about how Millennials and Gen Z people are mislabelled.
Links and Resources
Los Angeles Pacific University
Robert’s Rules Of Order
When one interviews Dr. John Reynolds, the conversation could go in a number of directions. We could explore his early career as the Chief Information Officer at World Vision. We could explore his long distinguished career in higher education. And if we wanted a lesson in world geography and world culture, we could get Dr. Reynolds to share with us what he’s learned by traveling to more than 80 countries as he consults with national NGO leaders.
As interesting and informative as those conversations might be, today’s conversation with Dr. Reynolds will be about nonprofit boardsmanship.
Dr. John Reynolds currently serves on nonprofit boards in the United States, Canada, Australia, and South Africa. As I was thinking about guests for the podcast, Dr. Maggie Bailey—who in her own right is very knowledgeable on boardsmanship—told me, “John Reynolds is the foremost authority on nonprofit boardsmanship. He should be the first person you interview on this topic.”
I hope you learn as much as I did from my conversation with Dr. Reynolds. Please be sure to share this podcast with the nonprofit board members you know, particularly if they are new members to board service. They will find these conversations with Dr. John Reynolds very helpful in their journey to becoming an effective nonprofit board member.
Enjoy!
Time Stamps
[1:20] – An introduction to today’s guest, Dr. John Reynolds.
[2:40] – John talks about his first board and how it showed up.
[3:57] – What did John learn from Dr. Ted about board leadership?
[5:30] – John’s best strategy for staffing a board.
[8:08] – An example of how John looks to the future when staffing a board today.
[8:30] – What is the purpose of a nonprofit board?
[10:02] – John shares how he believes boards get their work done.
[12:10] – John finds that a lot of boards don’t utilize the premise of using outside board members on their committees.
[12:55] – The dangers of having functional committees, according to John.
[15:03] – What a board should and should not do for the organization.
[15:41] – John’s experience with The Carver Model for board governance.
[18:04] – The best thing a board can do for a new CEO.
[20:30] – Boards should set clear expectations, clear metrics and how they will be measured, and create the space for new CEOs to be successful.
[21:15] – John responds to my quote about good directors on the board.
[23:11] – The kinds of decisions boards need to consider about the CEO.
Links and Resources
Los Angeles Pacific University
From a first-generation college graduate, to working in the student affairs department of his alma mater, to the President of Samford University, Dr. Andy Westmoreland’s journey has been anything but typical. 30 days into his retirement I had the chance to sit with him and pick his brain about his approach to being a leader, his thoughts on second chances, and why he decided to leave the position that he loved.
Although he is glad to have moved on from Arkansas, Andy’s small town upbringing taught him a lot of important life lessons, and in turn, he has been able to teach many valuable lessons to the many people whom he has worked with throughout his career in higher education.
Not only does Andy embody a wealth of knowledge and experience, but talking to him also brought back fond memories of my days at Samford when I was a graduate student in their MBA program. I hope you are able to take as much value away from this episode as I did!
Time Stamps
[1:54] – An introduction to today’s guest, Dr. Andy Westmoreland
[2:38] – What did and didn’t change during Andy’s time as president of Samford University.
[3:11] – Why Andy is grateful for his small town upbringing.
[4:29] – Andy’s very first job, and his first ‘real’ job, and the lessons he learned from them.
[5:58] – The misfortune in how people often perceive student affairs departments at universities.
[7:19] – The most effective approach to being a leader, according to Andy.
[9:13] – Andy shares what he believes to be good practice when it comes to hiring staff members in higher education institutions.
[11:43] – How Andy approaches interviews.
[14:10] – I share a few quotes about second chances.
[14:49] – Andy’s opinion on giving people second chances.
[16:41] – The wealth of experience that Andy has with fundraising.
[19:18] – Traits that Andy thinks are important for a vice president of advancement to have.
[20:25] – Why it’s a good sign if some people are irritated by your development approach.
[21:10] – How Andy made the decision to leave his position as President of Samford University.
Links and Resources
Samford University
Ouachita Baptist University
When I started this podcast, my intent was to learn about leadership from leaders themselves – people who, as the expression goes, have the t-shirt to prove their status, and today's guest definitely fits that criteria. Dr. Sandra Gray joins me today to talk about organizational leadership, team leadership, fundraising leadership, and her experience on a nonprofit board.
Dr. Gray served at Asbury University for nearly thirty years, the last twelve of which as the university's seventeenth president, and she talks about her role as a leader, focusing on concepts such as mission drift, the hiring process and what she looked for in potential candidates, how she approached employees who had overstepped a line and maybe broken a rule, how she operated the art and science of fundraising, what it was like when she first served on a nonprofit board, how big a board should be in her opinion, how a board should function, and so much more!
I am so grateful for Dr. Sandra Gray being such a gracious guest and taking time to chat with me in this episode, and I hope that her wisdom is helpful to our listeners! Don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, and I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Time Stamps
[1:07] – Tommy reveals this episode's guest as Dr. Sandra Gray.
[3:31] – Dr. Gray discusses the concept of mission drift as it relates to the role of a president.
[5:11] – We learn whether or not laying down boundaries was difficult at first for Dr. Gray.
[6:33] – Dr. Gray reflects on a challenge as president and how she overcame it.
[8:15] – Dr. Gray shares with us her first cabinet meeting following the economic recession in 2008.
[9:12] – Dr. Gray discusses the hiring process and what she looked for in candidates.
[10:53] – One of Dr. Gray's most difficult decisions that she had to make was turning a candidate away because they couldn't be a good team player.
[12:23] – Dr. Gray elaborates upon what was going on in her heart and mind when she had to turn a candidate away.
[13:17] – Dr. Gray talks about how she dealt with an employee who did something inappropriate or had made a mistake.
[15:18] – Dr. Gray thinks back and shares what the most effective thing was that she did for career development.
[16:30] – Sandra shares with us her biggest lesson about fundraising.
[18:55] – Sandra details one her earliest challenges with fundraising.
[20:30] – Dr. Gray argues that presidents and C.E.O.s have to be willing to do what's right regardless of who gets credit for it.
[22:34] – We discover how Dr. Gray knew that it was time to retire.
[25:00] – Dr. Gray was determined to work hard for as long as she could but wanted to leave on short notice.
[27:12] – Sandra tells us about her first role on a nonprofit board and what it was like.
[30:08] – Sandra considers risk and its relationship to a faith-based organization.
[32:18] – We learn how Sandra efficiently populated the board.
[33:24] – Dr. Gray makes observations about ideal sizes of a board.
[36:27] – We learn who Sandra considers her mentor to have been.
[37:34] – Sandra laments on how many boards are dysfunctional.
[39:20] – We hear Dr. Gray discuss how she and her board chair tended to communicate.
[41:45] – Dr. Gray asserts that there is no purpose in having an appointed antagonist on a board.
[43:50] – Tommy shifts the conversation toward the Enron scandal in 2001.
[46:35] – Sandra asserts that faith-based organizations have the challenge of wanting to see the best in people.
[47:46] – We learn what Dr. Gray believes a board needs to do for a new president.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Peter Greer - Mission Drift: The Unspoken Crisis Facing Leaders, Charities, and Churches
I have not one but two good friends joining me in this episode – returning guest Dr. David Dockery and Dr. Carl Zylstra! These two men have worked together over the years for the betterment of Christianity-oriented higher education, and they are here today to discuss their parallel journeys as college presidents and the friendship that they have fostered and enjoyed along the way!
David and Carl talk about how they met and talk about their experiences prior to their current positions and whether or not they had initially seen themselves ever becoming college presidents. They also reflect upon their first ever collaboration, what about their partnership and friendship works, what they have learned from each other along the way, how to combat loneliness when in a position of leadership, and so much more!
It is my sincerest hope after hearing this story that you will see that the friendship and the collaboration between David and Carl is truly a special and unique one and that they are - as is the title of a song by The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band - partners, brothers, and friends. This has been such a great and insightful conversation, and I thank both gentlemen for joining me in this episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode, and I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Time Stamps
[1:44] – This episode's guests are returning guest Dr. David Dockery and Dr. Carl Zylstra.
[3:06] – We learn about how David and Carl met in the summer of 1996.
[4:57] – David reveals whether or not being a college president had been his original plan.
[7:34] – David replies to being asked how much he knew about Carl's theological background when he met him.
[10:14] – Carl and David reflect on their first collaboration.
[13:02] – Carl discusses how his friendship with David is one in which they can pick up exactly where they left off when they last saw each other.
[15:59] – We learn about whether or not being college presidents was ever lonely for Carl and David.
[17:56] – David emphasizes how important it is to not demonstrate unfair partiality when developing internal friendships.
[20:12] – Carl asserts that his and David's strengths being in different areas helped cement their friendship.
[21:30] – Having people outside of the institution that you totally trust, David argues, is inevitable and essential.
[23:05] – Carl and David discuss their conversations with each other about their retirements.
[25:35] – David reiterates that he and Carl had very similar visions regarding Christian higher education.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band - “Partners, Brothers and Friends”
NGNL with Tommy Thomas - “From Disaster Rises Grace: Discussing the 2008 Tornado at Union University with Dr. David Dockery”
The Wall Street Journal - “Five Reasons Why It's Lonely at the Top”
Forbes - “Is It Truly Lonely At The Top?”
I welcome Christine Talbot of World Vision to the podcast today as we discuss her story of being a Human Resources professional. Christine joined World Vision six years ago in 2015 as the Senior Vice President of Human Resources, but she is someone who has worn a lot of different hats over the years! Christine also works with the Christian Leadership Alliance where she serves on the Board of Directors, and she even went on a recent bicycle trip during which she rode through the entire state of Florida in only one day!
There are therefore so many things that we could talk about, but in this episode of the podcast, we are focusing mostly on how to have a successful collaboration between a search consultant and a Human Resources executive. She also shares tidbits of her life story such as the major transition that took place in her life when she became a Christian as well as details about what transitioning between organizations was like for her.
Christine enthusiastically reflects on her reasons for being so excited about her role with World Vision and with her involvement with the Christian Leadership Alliance, talking about the differences between standard leadership and leadership of a Christian organization. She also discusses her hiring process and her leadership style and how she worked during the COVID-19 pandemic. Christine closes by offering some helpful advice to anyone looking to pursue a similar career path as hers, encouraging them to get exposure to all of the different facets of Human Resources before deciding which facet you want to pursue.
I thank Christine for taking time out of her day to chat with me. It was so good to talk with her about her story and share this conversation with her. Join me in the next episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, and don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode! I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Time Stamps
[1:16] – This episode's guest is Christine Talbot of World Vision!
[3:14] – Christine discusses what happened in her life after becoming a Christian.
[5:20] – There were three opportunities that came along simultaneously for Christine, and she reveals why she chose World Vision.
[7:43] – Christine admits that she underestimated what her transition would be like.
[9:40] – We learn what the biggest surprise was when she moved to a Christian organization.
[11:17] – Christine explains what the Christian Leadership Alliance is and what they do.
[13:03] – Christine describes what's different and what's similar about recruiting at World Vision.
[16:03] – Christine reveals what she makes sure that a search partner has.
[17:31] – Christine considers herself a bridge between her external partner and her internal client.
[20:16] – We learn more about Christine's interviewing approach when she hires people.
[22:01] – Christine expounds upon the faith questions that she asks in interviews at World Vision.
[24:08] – Christine describes her leadership style.
[25:32] – We hear about what Christine had to grapple with in relation to COVID-19.
[27:18] – Christine offers advice for people working in a position similar to hers.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
World Vision - Website
Christian Leadership Alliance - Website
Welcome, Dr. David Dockery, to this episode of the podcast! David is a good friend of mine, and I first met him when he was President of Union University in Jackson, Tennessee, and since then, David has served as President of Trinity International University and is currently at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in a number of different roles.
David is a wealth of information, and there is so much that I could talk to him about, but in this episode of Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership, I talk to him about a devastating natural disaster that hit the grounds of Union University while he was President there. On the evening of February 5, 2008, an EF4 tornado ripped through the heart of the Union University campus, causing massive damage to several academic buildings and completely leveling many student housing facilities – a grand total of 45 million dollars worth of damage.
David walks us through where he was when it happened and describes the situation. He reveals that 53 students were injured – nine of whom were critically injured – but that there were fortunately no fatalities. He also reflects on how he felt immediately after the tornado hit and how horrifying it was having twelve students trapped underneath a fallen wall for several hours, having no way of knowing if they were all alive.
David also shares what the aftermath was like, both the night of and the weeks that followed. He discusses touching base with the Board, whom he credits as having been instrumental in the university's incredibly fast rebound, which might have even been record time. The semester resumed in two weeks, and the campus was fully operational again by September! David closes by offering advice both to leaders and board members about what to do to prepare for such a possible disaster. Most of us probably think that these types of things are one-in-a-million and aren't going to happen to us – that is until it does happen to us and it's now too late.
I am so grateful to David both for his friendship and his willingness to relive this disaster by sharing the story on the podcast. As I said, it's so important to be prepared just in case something like this happens, and I hope to have David on again in the future as there is so much that we could talk about! Join me next time, and don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode! I also encourage you to share the podcast with a friend who would also be likely to get something out of it!
Time Stamps:
- [1:11] – Tommy reveals that Dr. David Dockery is this episode's guest and that the topic is a natural disaster that took place at Union University while David was President there.
- [3:13] – David begins to walk us through where he was when the tornado hit the campus.
- [6:02] – David describes the situation once the fire department and EMS arrived at the scene.
- [7:27] – We learn that Union had 53 students who were injured but fortunately no fatalities.
- [9:35] – Twelve students, David explains, were trapped underneath a fallen wall for several hours.
- [10:09] – David reveals what it was like touching base with the university's Board.
- [12:27] – One final sweep of the campus at around 2:00 in the morning ensured that no students were left trapped on campus.
- [14:38] – We learn how David and the Union team began to assess damage and how to proceed.
- [17:00] – David set a goal of resuming the semester in two weeks.
- [18:52] – David reveals how much money worth of damage was caused by the tornado.
- [20:11] – David explains how Union began to rebuild the leveled buildings.
- [22:02] – David discusses the news coverage that followed and how it resulted in their being able to cover the 18 million dollar gap that insurance didn't cover.
- [24:19] – We receive some insight about how the Union leadership team was organized.
- [26:24] – Due to a minor tornado in 2002, Union did have an emergency plan in place in case of disasters like this one.
- [29:34] – David gives advice to nonprofit leaders regarding disaster preparedness.
- [32:10] – David also offers advice to board members.
Links and Resources
- JobfitMatters – Website
- Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary - Website
- International Alliance for Christian Education - Website
- David S. Dockery – Christian Leadership Essentials: A Handbook for Managing Christian Organization
Our guest in this episode of the podcast is a dear friend of mine, Holly Moore! I met Holly via one of her early mentors, Fred Smith, and our first meeting (if I remember correctly) was in early 2006. Holly has had an amazing career, having gotten a nursing degree and working in healthcare before rising to Vice President of a large healthcare company where she had a lot of responsibilities and an incredibly large staff to oversee. She then felt a call to ministry and worked with Mercy Ships, Growing Leaders, and then Hollis Strategies.
Holly talks on the podcast about some formative events from her childhood such as finding faith in God at a very young age and her father developing addiction to alcohol and prescription pain medications, the latter a hardship that she credits for making her resilient and empathetic. She reflects back on her time in healthcare and how she felt when she first became a Vice President. Being one of the youngest and one of the only female Vice Presidents in her company was major, and she was fearful, but she remained courageous and brave which only worked to her benefit!
Holly also gives advice to people who lead younger people such as millennials. She reveals what characteristics and traits she looks for in a new hire and how she would handle a situation in which an employee has done something wrong. She credits her ability to invest in and maintain relationships (not just with family members but also with friendships), and she even shares what she wishes someone would have told her when she first started out.
I had such a great time talking with Holly on this episode of the podcast! She had some really sage insight that stems from her many years of experience – insight about so many things when it comes to the world of leadership, and I am very grateful for her time! Join me next time, and don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode! You should also share the podcast with a friend who would be likely to get something out of it as well!
Time Stamps
[1:51] – Tommy introduces Holly Moore as this episode's guest.
[3:05] – Holly shares a few formative events from her childhood.
[5:23] – Tommy and Holly discuss Holly's career and various positions throughout.
[8:24] – Holly reflects on her first management role in healthcare.
[10:13] – We learn what skill from her healthcare work has benefitted Holly most now that she does nonprofit work.
[12:08] – Holly shares with us how she initially felt when she became one of the youngest and one of the only female Vice Presidents in her company.
[13:43] – Holly reveals what she believes she has done best as a mentor.
[16:21] – Holly explains how she goes about deciding whether or not someone has potential.
[18:03] – We learn a little about Growing Leaders and what Holly learned from being with them for twelve years.
[20:55] – Holly lists off the four traits that she looks for in a new hire: character, chemistry, confidence, and credibility.
[23:25] – Holly argues that making decisions too quickly is the worst mistake that hiring managers can make.
[24:49] – We discover what Holly would ask a potential hire if she only had five minutes to interview them.
[26:04] – Holly discusses what would play a role in her deciding whether or not to give an employee who has done something wrong another chance.
[28:20] – Holly talks about how she noticed leadership skills within herself as early as when she was a nurse.
[29:36] – Holly reveals what personal habit of hers she is proudest of.
[30:44] – Holly closes by disclosing what wisdom about leadership she wishes someone had imparted upon her when she was in the early stages of her leadership journey.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Holly’s LinkedIn Page
Mercy Ships - Website
Growing Leaders - Website
Hollis Strategies - Website
Hollis Strategies - Meet Holly
Hollis Strategies - Facebook Page
Hollis Strategies - Instagram Page
Get a Complimentary Five Voices Assessment
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
Whether we realize it or not, each of us benefits from the work of the nonprofit sector. A strong nonprofit sector is key to thriving communities. At Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas, we are on a journey – a journey to play a small part in equipping the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
Unlike similar shows where the guests often make their living writing, teaching, or speaking about leadership, our guests are seasoned leaders, and there is something we can learn from their experience that will make the nonprofit stronger and more effective.
Every day, nonprofits feed, heal, shelter, educate, inspire, and nurture people of every age, race, and socioeconomic status. The common thread that runs through each nonprofit story is that the impact of the organization rises and falls on leadership - leadership throughout the organization and leadership at the board level.
Join me – Dr. Tommy Thomas – as I begin this journey by chatting with Jim Loscheider. Jim has spent his whole career working in the field of stewardship and generosity, and for the last twenty-nine years, he has worked for only two employers – something that not many people can say in today's world. Jim has also dedicated the next chapter of his life to mentoring young Christian leaders in ministry.
Jim shares what his childhood was like and describes how he was raised in a post-WWII family. He got his undergraduate degree at the University of Minnesota, and he talks about what got him started on his nonprofit journey. He also reveals what his greatest strength is, discusses the difference between administration and policy making, and so much more!
I thank Jim for joining me in this episode of the podcast. Jim had some really great things to say about fundraising and mentoring. If you are an upcoming leader or new board leader for a nonprofit organization, then I would encourage you to seek out someone who has been down that road before and can maybe help pave the way for you! Join me next time, and don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode! You should also share the podcast with a friend who would be likely to get something out of it as well!
Time Stamps
[1:08] – Tommy introduces the guest of this episode – Jim Loscheider - and provides us with some of his credentials.
[1:56] – Jim shares what his childhood was like up to when he went to college.
[2:56] – Jim reflects on some of his best childhood memories.
[4:04] – Jim reveals what led him to stewardship after becoming interested in biblical generosity.
[6:20] – We learn about the Stewardship or Generosity Movement and when and how it began.
[7:13] – Jim explains what he learned from working as director of the The Christian and Missionary Alliance’s national stewardship program.
[9:49] – Jim talks about what he has learned about the hiring process over the years.
[11:24] – Jim reflects on hiring within vs. hiring from outside and which he prefers.
[12:53] – We discover what Jim considers to be the most difficult aspect of hiring good employees and how he determines whether or not someone has potential.
[15:06] – Jim shares whether or not he tends to give employees second chances when they make mistakes.
[17:38] – We hear Jim reflect on how he felt when he made the transition from The Orchard Alliance to Samaritan's Purse and what that transition was like.
[20:05] – Jim believes letting talented people walk their own course rather than micromanaging them to be his greatest strength.
[21:32] – Jim describes what goes into deciding whether or not to become someone's mentor.
[22:25] – Jim believes that a board needs to be introspective and ask questions of itself at least once per year.
[24:22] – Jim argues that having a boarding plan when bringing on a new members is important.
[26:00] – Jim provides his thoughts on the best thing that a board can do for an incoming C.E.O.
[27:55] – Jim evaluates how well the nonprofit sector does on three specific criteria.
[30:10] – Tommy brings up a metaphor about a chairman and C.E.O. needing to learn how to dance closely together, and Jim offers his opinion on the validity of the metaphor.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Samaritan's Purse – Website
The Christian and Missionary Alliance – Website
The Orchard Alliance – Website
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
When I first met today's guest over lunch in Colorado Springs, I knew ten minutes into my interview with him that I had found the leader that I was looking for with IJM (International Justice Mission), and he also ended up at the top of my list of people whom I wanted to interview on this podcast. Bob Lonac has a career in leadership that spans over several decades, having been a leader of Young Life for thirty-three years before becoming Executive Vice President of IJM and later C.E.O. of CRISTA Ministries.
Bob walks us through his career and all of the different titles and responsibilities that he had with each position, starting with having joined Young Life in 1967 and working with them for thirty-three years before joining IJM and then CRISTA. He explains why he left Young Life and details his first team at IJM and what set it apart, and he also explains why he then left IJN and moved to CRISTA.
Bob reflects on his childhood as well and what about his childhood led him to becoming a leader. He acknowledges God for giving him the gift of leadership but also credits his father, who was a hard worker and taught Bob the value of a strong work ethic. He also talks about one of his most satisfying childhood memories being the catcher on his baseball team even though he wasn't the best athlete, clarifying that he loved it because he loved being a leader.
I sincerely thank Bob for joining me in this episode of the podcast. Bob had some really insightful points to make about leadership, his hiring process, his challenges and failures over the years, and so much more! Join me next time, and don't forget to hit the subscribe button so that you never miss an episode! You should also share the podcast with a friend who would be likely to get something out of it as well!
Time Stamps
[1:21] – Tommy introduces this episode's guest – Bob Lonac – and provides some of his credentials.
[2:05] – Bob highlights important aspects of his childhood, focusing on his father, his friendships, and having been the catcher of his baseball team.
[5:04] – Bob reflects back on having joined the Young Life staff back in 1967.
[6:21] – We learn when Bob realized that he was good at starting and developing things, referring primarily to self-awareness.
[7:47] – Bob explains what about the International Justice Mission attracted him to it.
[10:03] – Bob describes what sets International Justice Mission apart: (1) a huge vision and (2) excellence and professionalism.
[11:19] – Bob talks about his first team at International Justice Mission.
[12:53] – Bob highlights the components of his hiring process.
[14:50] – Bob narrates the story of hiring a new radio Vice President for CRISTA Ministries, highlighting the importance of listening to your intuition.
[17:39] – We discover why Bob moved from International Justice Mission to CRISTA.
[20:13] – Bob reflects upon his greatest failures and what he learned from them.
[23:12] – Bob compares and contrasts his supervisors at Young Life and at International Justice Mission.
[24:30] – Bob provides us with some insight regarding the strengths of and differences between the three different boards with which he has been involved.
[26:18] – Bob remarks upon how his wife Kathleen has helped him move forward in his career.
[27:13] – Bob closes by reflecting on what he wishes that he had known when he started his career.
Links and Resources
JobfitMatters – Website
Bob Lonac Consults - Website
Bob’s Bookstore
Bob’s Facebook Page
Bob’s LinkedIn Page
Young Life - Website
IJM (International Justice Mission) - Website
CRISTA Ministries - Website
Blue Ocean Strategy, Expanded Edition: How to Create Uncontested Market Space and Make the Competition Irrelevant
Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts
